Edgar,
I'd like to jump in here...
There are no 'laws of nature', or maybe better said the 'laws of nature' are
human projections (delusions). So is math.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Joe,
How does nature operate according to the laws of
Edgar,
There is no math out there.
She would be very upset if she heard that you really believe or insist
personally upon this. In fact, you may begin to experience negative effects
soon, considering your views expressed here/there, which seem firm, inflexible,
uninformed, or insular.
joe's back.
welcome
merle
Edgar,
There is no math out there.
She would be very upset if she heard that you really believe or insist
personally upon this. In fact, you may begin to experience negative effects
soon, considering your views expressed here/there, which seem firm,
Merle,
Your sequence is interesting, but not essential.
And it's irrelevant to Zen work.
Realization, awakening, have nothing to do with math, or logic, or truth (where
truth is given as yes, no).
In awakening, a view opens which is True. But it is not yes, no!
You'll see.
--Joe
Merle
Merle,
No, that statement itself is Art, and is not Life, Cousin.
Tell it to my Neon Tetras.
Life and Art?
Take a look:
Each one is OK. They are not each other. Just like you and me, who have
different names. Or does it just seem that way? No, we have different names.
And are different
Merle,
quoting:
joe's back.
And my front, too!
Hiya; been birding.
Great Fourth of July outing, continuing onwards.
Blessings, all'a you'all,
as some people say,
--Joe
Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
joe's back.
welcome
merle
Joe wrote:
There is no math
Joe,
How does nature operate according to the laws of nature if there is no math out
there?
It obviously couldn't and because it does nature is obviously a computational
process based on the logic and math of reality...
Edgar
On Jul 11, 2013, at 6:28 PM, Joe wrote:
Edgar,
There is no
Edgar,
Nothing and no one needs to know anything about math except Humans.
Or maybe ET, somewhere.
And it took Humans a few million years to assume that they knew any math at all.
That answers your question.
Nature has no laws. That is delusion, for sure. Nature is Nature. Humans see
joe..is there no rhyme and reason in nature...
what would charles darwin's thoughts be?
we might see the mathematics in nature
and this might be best described
as the order of things
mother nature
she works to a plan
she's no dope
and she may not have laws
but there's something going on
joe..i need clarification on this..and as always the rule is it must be zen
like in appearance...merle
Merle,
No, that statement itself is Art, and is not Life, Cousin.
Tell it to my Neon Tetras.
Life and Art?
Take a look:
Each one is OK. They are not each other. Just like you and
joe..thank you for your clarification...merle
Merle,
Your sequence is interesting, but not essential.
And it's irrelevant to Zen work.
Realization, awakening, have nothing to do with math, or logic, or truth (where
truth is given as yes, no).
In awakening, a view opens which is True.
Merle,
Nature has its ways, and its wends.
We know little about it, or about them.
Inside, we're OK when we ask NO questions.
When we ask questions, we must answer them -- if at all -- in a language that
is NOT Nature's. Because... Nature has no language.
Don't fall -- please -- for the
Merle,
Thanks asking, Dearie.
I hope it suits Zen, but ...life is not art, and art is not life.
That's why they go by different names, Cousin.
That's why my Cousin is Merle, and that's why your Cousin is Joe.
Do you get it?
This is not Rocket Engineering! Easy stuff.
--Joe
ps (there's
joe... is not there an art to living well?... and hence one strives to do this
through the zen experience?...merle
Merle,
Thanks asking, Dearie.
I hope it suits Zen, but ...life is not art, and art is not life.
That's why they go by different names, Cousin.
That's why my Cousin is
Chris,
IMO 'jet-lagged', disappointment or feeling guilty of disappointing someone
else are all perceptions. These has nothing to do with sensory experience.
('Jet-lagged' may be in a different category here if you are talking about the
physical effects, but the mental and emotional effects
Chris,
From a pluralistic POV everything is relative.
Form a monisitc POV there is just One and it is absolute - Just THIS!
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote:
I missed this earlier.
Isn't every thing relative? Even the absolute is relative, (I
So to encounter the monistic is not yet enlightenment? The monistic and
the pluralistic fit together like a box and lid?
Sometimes you write like you are trying to separate pieces of the brain
into stages of neural processing, and sometimes it sounds like one of your
stages is not really a
Chris brings up a couple of good questions to start out his comment below: So
to encounter the monistic is not yet enlightenment? The monistic and the
pluralistic fit together like a box and lid?
IMO monistic experience (Buddha Nature) is not what is usually referred to as
'enlightenment'.
Chris,
I should have worded my response, Mind minds mind. What's the point of
trying to conceptualize monistic experience when it's already right there? It
reminds me of people at concerts who watch the show on their iPhone screens as
they record it.
-PBS
PBS,
Another good analogy.
Describing a monistic experience is virtually impossible using language because
language, at least English, is inherently dualistically oriented assuming a
subject/object relationship. And it's 100 times more difficult in a text-based
medium like the Zen Forum.
I appreciate your going out on a limb here.
I like your explanation and find it quite clear.
My question tho was more like, if your body/mind is calm and balanced, how
can that mental state not enter the sensual experience of
sight/sound/tasting/etc.? If you have sensory experience on a day
Bill, you used an example of some cultures finding fox fur beautiful and
some cultures finding fox fur (on people) to be barbaric.
I was trying to point to a conception (yes) of beauty that wouldn't be as
abstract as this type of thing has the character of beauty but would
confine itself to, oh,
I missed this earlier.
Isn't every thing relative? Even the absolute is relative, (I cheated
once and listened rather than just chanted.)
Still, among humans, beauty is a good word, useful.
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
On Jul 5, 2013 6:26 PM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:
Chris,
You
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
On Jul 5, 2013 6:22 PM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:
Chris,
Yes, I believe the human intellect is the origin of your judgement of
what's beautiful and what's not.
You're example below is a good one to illustrate this:
I have heard some music without
meaning what mike?...
i know what you mean by the mushrooms..but do you? are we on the same mushroom
page?
something akin to alice in wonderland?
hey folk..i just sold one of my drawings: autumn fungi ...
i do believe i sent you a pix joe..remember ?...
i feel over the moon.
as a mother
Merle,br/br/If we're talking about the same 'shrooms, then do you know you
by posting them you could face a 2 to 25 year sentence and possible forfeiture
of your house? Best hang onto them until I make it over to NSW
sometime!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Congrats on your sale - it must be satisfying to have someone
appreciate what you do to the point of paying money for it.br/br/I agree
with Bill! that art, maths are only universal in that they apply to humans. The
only things that are truly universal are the factors Buddha found:
mike..
milky saffrons are top tucker in the very best restaurants and much sort after
..
what do you take me for?
a person who has not reached realisation?
merle
Merle,
If we're talking about the same 'shrooms, then do you know you by posting them
you could face a 2 to 25 year sentence
Merle,br/br/Yeh, but I was originally talking about the shrooms they
traditionally don't serve in your local restaurant.. ;
)br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
thank you for the congrats mike
the lass is over the moon with my art..says she'll be back for more...
her mother said why have you all that beautiful work hidden away it needs to be
out there...
i prefer to just do art... selling is not in my nature
on-line art buying is a great way to get
mike..i see..gold tops and blue meenies?...is that the shroom page we are on?
how things change in late 60's they were top tucker in many circles..
merle
Merle,
Yeh, but I was originally talking about the shrooms they traditionally don't
serve in your local restaurant.. ; )
Mike
br/Merle,br/br/If you go to Mars or the furthest galaxy away from us you
will find impermanence, cause and effect, dependent origination, but you won't
find art. In relative terms, your 2 hands exist and can be seen, touched etc.,
but the number '2' exists only in logic and the minds of
Chris,
Are you saying you don't know HOW I draw such a bright line between experience
and perceptions? Or are you saying you don't know WHY I draw the line?
'How' is easy. Experience is sensual and monistic (Buddha Nature).
Perceptions are intellectualizations and pluralistic (Human
Now we're on the same page!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Bill!br/br/You're becoming quite the 'Buddhist'! Glad you can see that just
saying, Just THIS! doesn't suit all
occasions.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,
Experience (as I define it - sensual) is always real as real as real can be.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 so bill...experience is always real as real as real can be? merle
Â
Merle,
Yes. Experience is not a delusion.
Merle,
The 'bamboozling' is done by your intellect. What you're describing is not
pure experience, it's a perception - perhaps what you'd call a false
perception. Like thinking you see something but when you go check there's
nothing there. That's a fault of your perception, not your
no no no mike..life is art and art is life..merle
Merle,
If you go to Mars or the furthest galaxy away from us you will find
impermanence, cause and effect, dependent origination, but you won't find art.
In relative terms, your 2 hands exist and can be seen, touched etc., but the
number
ah i see..as if i did not before merle
Now we're on the same page!
Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com;
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the
sensual...what about non sensual?..merle
Merle,
Experience (as I define it - sensual) is always real as real as real can be.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 so bill...experience is always real as real as real can be? merle
Â
goodness me i had better hang up my hat with my art...it's all based on
perception... and now your saying it's all false!..
how come i can communicate with folk in that fashion then?...
is their understanding false...and without a word being said they and me are on
the same page?..merle
Merle,
My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably
something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as
beautiful.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
Â
 bill..how do you know they were
Merle,
I believe someone is attached to their intellect when they believe their
intellectualizations are real.
I am using my intellect right now to write this sentence.
You can use your intellect (or anything else, like your car) and not be
attached to it.
...Bill!
--- In
bill..are you saying you are happy to accept second hand experiences?...merle
Merle,
My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably
something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as
beautiful.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,
huh bill?
if you are not attached to your car it cannot be driven to your destination
so on that premises a car is real
hence one's intellectualisations are real
surely?
merle
Merle,
I believe someone is attached to their intellect when they believe their
intellectualizations are
Merle,
There is no non-sensual experience. Anything non-sensual is delusion.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 sensual...what about non sensual?..merle
Â
Merle,
Experience (as I define it - sensual) is always real as real as real can
Merle,
You can communicate to other folk with art because they are human. They have
Human Nature which is to say an intellect, emotions, etc...
It would be the same as communicating via language or mathematics or facial
expressions. These only work because you are directing them to another
Merle,
All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual.
Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is learned.
For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the skin and head
of a dead fox around your neck as beautiful. Some subcultures would perceive
There's life on Mars? You'd better break the news to David
Bowie!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
You mean you knew and you were going to send them by mail?? You rebel,
you!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/I think the confusion here is because you're referring to the
relative (nothing wrong with that!) and Bill! is talking from the
absolute.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
would i be that silly?..merle
You mean you knew and you were going to send them by mail?? You rebel, you!
Mike
Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com;
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
what is meant by life...? merle
There's life on Mars? You'd better break the news to David Bowie!
Mike
Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com;
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
Subject:
cold as hell..
huh..
hell is hot from what i last heard...
folk raised many a kiddy in siberia...
so what's stopping mankind from raising kiddies in mars?..
merle
Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids
In fact it's cold as Hell
And there's no one there to raise them if you
i see..so an example of pure perception please bill...merle
Merle,
All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual.
Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is learned.
For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the skin and head
of a dead
would it be possible for bill to give an example of absolute as in art..and
music too
the delusion in art and music for that matter is that there is a price that can
be paid to acquire it..
all art and music for that matter is priceless
the value of it in terms of it's relationship to
Um You asked for my postal address!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPad
Well, at least something that can reproduce! Are you saying there's no
difference between organic and inorganic material?? I've yet to meet a rock
that can do calculus, finger-paint or whistle a
tune!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,br/br/Umm, they're lyrics from a song by Elton
John.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Merle,
An example of a perception: a beautiful sunset.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 i see..so an example of pure perception please bill...merle
Â
Merle,
All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual.
Perceptions come
Merle,
It would not be possible for me to give you an example of an absolute in art or
music because the valuation of all art and music are subjective.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
Â
 would it be possible for bill to give an example
Are you kidding? Your intellect is where your sense of beauty come from?
That could not be further away from my experience. Over and over, I have
heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time have
really listened to it, and been deeply moved. Really also I find
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
On Jul 5, 2013 3:24 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:
Merle,
All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual.
Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is
learned.
For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of
I meant how.
There’s no way thinking will allow you to differentiate between angry
seeing and tired seeing and neutral seeing. It's all a piece - the
experiences mediated by introspection are the same experiences mediated by
sight. You seem to be claiming your seeing is cut away from the rest of
Arg, pardon the typos.
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
On Jul 5, 2013 9:51 AM, Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote:
I meant how.
There’s no way thinking will allow you to differentiate between angry
seeing and tired seeing and neutral seeing. It's all a piece - the
experiences
Non-thought is not no mental activity, sitting errect fully present in a
moment takes more lively brains/more energetic bodies than sleep.
Or are you suggesting that skimming thru life without really inhabiting
each moment is the key?
Or just falling prey to that Zen temptation of word play,
yes i am mike...life began as you well know from a single cell...why are you
telling me a rock is inorganic? realisation see all as one what has finger
painting got to do with it?..merle
Well, at least something that can reproduce! Are you saying there's no
difference between organic
mike ..i know this... merle
Merle,
Umm, they're lyrics from a song by Elton John.
Mike
Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com;
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re:
bill beautiful..your the one saying don't judge..merle
Merle,
An example of a perception: a beautiful sunset.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 i see..so an example of pure perception please bill...merle
Â
Merle,
All
Merle,br/br/Yes, a rock is inorganic. And it can't perform art, language or
math. Therefore they are not universal. A rock, however, is impermanent, has no
inherent self and exist due to prior conditions. These things *are* universal.
I can't explain it clearer than that.br/br/in·or·gan·ic
Chris,
You wrote: You can't hope to come up with some general rule about beauty that
applies to more than one moment. This night, that fur whatever, this gathering,
that cloud bank, this breeze, this response. But some other night?
What you've correctly stated above is why I say the
Chris,
I don't resist your POV as long as you're describing perceptions. Perceptions
are pluaristic (which makes them delusions) so all the dualistic judgements can
and do apply.
When you used the word 'brighter' you AUTOMATICALLY imply dualism. Something
can't be 'brighter' unless it's
Merle, Merle, Merle...
You're beginning to sound like Edgar - always projecting your thoughts and
ideas on what I say (or don't say in this case) and misquoting me.
I have never said 'don't judge'. I've only said that all judgments are
products of your intellect and are therefore deslusive.
without the rock we would not be here..merle
Merle,
Yes, a rock is inorganic. And it can't perform art, language or math. Therefore
they are not universal. A rock, however, is impermanent, has no inherent self
and exist due to prior conditions. These things *are* universal. I can't
Merle,br/br/I'd say the opposite is true. Rocks 'exist' because we name and
label them as such.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
And additionally are you really claiming that you don't experience beauty
as a thing of the moment but only as something to make rules or reason
about?
And PBS, was there some non-rhetorical point about mind moves? Other than
the joke about mouths flapping? Do you also have some concept of
Chris,
I really think getting down to this level of discussion of such things
on a zen forum is uncalled for and probably leads to more confusion than
clarification, but I will answer your question - only because you're one
of my favorites... [:x]
First of all your phrase 'states of the brain'
Bingo!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
Merle,br/br/I'd say the opposite is true. Rocks 'exist' because we name
and label them as such.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPad
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book
Chris,
To respond to the part of your post below I assume is directed to me...
I don't EXPERIENCE 'beauty' or 'ugly' or 'red' or 'pleasing' or 'rocks',
etc...; I PERCEIVE these. Perception is a function of what I call my intellect
- the origin of plurality. If it would sound better I could
Bill,
No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic
of reality.
Edgar
On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote:
Chris,
Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human
intellect.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,
Edgar,
Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words
because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I
suppose that wouldn't work for you.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Bill,
No,
Bill,
This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of the
world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal circles, squares,
and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought.
The math our there is like software that continually computes the current state
of
Edgar,
I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Bill,
This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of the
world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal
I didn't really finish my thought below. It should read:
'I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know that it is
delusional.'
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote:
Edgar,
I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know.
...Bill!
Bill,
Math is a subset of logic. Think of software which incorporates both. Would it
work for you if I said that the world of forms is a logico-mathematical
computational system? Human math and logic are approximations of that in human
mental models of reality. They work because they do, in
Bill,
Actually you need to know much much more to function well in reality of the
world of forms which you seem to do quite well.
By denying that is reality you deny the reality of most of your existence - all
of it other than the 3 hours a week you spend sitting...
Edgar
On Jul 4, 2013,
Edgar,
I'd agree with every word you say below if you would just erase the three-word
phrase the external reality in the last sentence.
Or if you want to keep the word count constant you could substitute the phrase
the intellectual delusion...
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar
Edgar,
I'll return the compliment by acknowledging that you have some of the most
complex and persistent delusions I have ever come across.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Bill,
Actually you need to know much much more to function well in reality
mathematics is beautiful because it is logical
logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth
truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to
take place ..
merle
Edgar,
Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math
hence perhaps fuzzy logic?... merle
Bill,
This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of the
world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal circles, squares,
and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought.
The math our there is like software that
there is more to know whence one announce that is all one need to know..
how does one grow and realise and become fully aware if one shuts the door so
to speak at the first knowing?..
merle
Edgar,
I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know.
...Bill!
--- In
anything that is not a delusion for you bill?..merle
I didn't really finish my thought below. It should read:
'I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know that it is
delusional.'
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote:
Edgar,
I know
..is cyber space a delusion?..merle
Bill,
Math is a subset of logic. Think of software which incorporates both. Would it
work for you if I said that the world of forms is a logico-mathematical
computational system? Human math and logic are approximations of that in human
mental models
Bill,
Thanks, from you I do take that as a compliment!
:-)
Best,
Edgar
On Jul 4, 2013, at 8:36 AM, Bill! wrote:
Edgar,
I'll return the compliment by acknowledging that you have some of the most
complex and persistent delusions I have ever come across.
...Bill!
--- In
the reality is that without reality one would be in a disneyland..merle
Bill,
Actually you need to know much much more to function well in reality of the
world of forms which you seem to do quite well.
By denying that is reality you deny the reality of most of your existence - all
of
Merle,
Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes.
Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we
understand the truth.
Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is.
All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are
bill...what fear do you have of the intellect?..
without the human brain and intellect yes based on logic
you would not be typing this message to edgar ..
merle
Edgar,
I'd agree with every word you say below if you would just erase the three-word
phrase the external reality in the last
Merle,
Yes. Experience is not a delusion. That's all.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
Â
 anything that is not a delusion for you bill?..merle
Â
I didn't really finish my thought below. It should read:
'I know math is based
Merle,
Yes. It's an e-delusion... ;)
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 ..is  cyber space a delusion?..merle
Â
Bill,
Math is a subset of logic. Think of software which incorporates both. Would
it work for you if I said that the world of
bill you need to state these delusions clearly and logically so all of us
on this forum know precisely what you mean... merle
Edgar,
I'll return the compliment by acknowledging that you have some of the most
complex and persistent delusions I have ever come across.
...Bill!
--- In
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