Paul Osborne wrote:
I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige.
There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings.
===
Grampa Bill responds:
Grampa Bill responds:
I know of one SP who was a mechanic until his business went bust
just before his call, He then sold house trailers for a while but was
terminated because of too few sales. After a period of unemployment he
want to work as a machinist for the county.
I know of another who
At 03:13 10/25/2002 +, St Stephen wrote:
Perhaps you should tell Elders Maxwell, Nelson, and Hilbig about Occam's
razor, so they can get their acts together.
What's a razor?
Till
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER:
- Stephen -
Though this is off the main thread, it's an interesting side thread. I
don't agree that teacher was a Melchizedek Priesthood office for the
Nephites; the Melchizedek Priesthood was not generally held among the
Jews, so I don't see why it would have been generally held among the
-Mark-
Moroni talks about teachers and priests. This is several
hundred years after Christ, so the Nephites had the Melchizedek
priesthood at that time and were not under the law of Moses.
True enough. I was referring to earlier, pre-Resurrection references to
teachers and priests. But you
Mark
Several of the Brethren have stated that since the Nephites were not
Levites they never did have the Aaronic priesthood even when under the
law of Moses. Therefore, so state these same Brethren, the Nephites
always only had the Melchizedek priesthood. They further state (IIRC)
that they
On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:09:09 -0400, Elmer L. Fairbank
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
At 03:13 10/25/2002 +, St Stephen wrote:
Perhaps you should tell Elders Maxwell, Nelson, and Hilbig about Occam's
razor, so they can get their acts together.
What's a razor?
Till, a razor is that thing
John W. Redelfs wrote:
At 11:41 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Gary Smith wrote:
It is partially an issue of maturity/age: placing those who have not had
a line authority position requiring HP status, into the HP quorum/group,
in order to strengthen the individual and also to strengthen the quorum.
Paul Osborne wrote:
And, yes, John gave me some good pointers. I've seen how John operates
too and have watched him type letters to the list. I've seen his
computer, chair, book shelves, and table. I can visualize him right now
in my mind.
Having trouble sleeping, are we?
ducking with
At 21:43 10/23/2002 -0500, Gary wrote:
The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a comfortable
life.
Not so sure I agree, Gary. Reference Approaching Zion Chapters 4 and
5. Not so sure earned is the correct choice of terms here.
Till
At 21:46 10/23/2002 -0500, St Paul wrote:
I will admit that I used
to annoyed about it in the past.
Till detects that it is still unresolved
But it is the Lord's church and he can
do whatever he wants, so I have come to accept it.
You're on the right track, though
but I'm sure he had
From what I've noticed here in my ward--
Prospective Elders: 98% Inactive*
Elders: Seems like 25-30% Inactive, at least here
High Priests: 5-10% Inactive, but it seems as if the
inactivity occurs mainly for health reasons, such as
an extended hospitalization
As Paul O. noted, Prospective
-Gary-
You give some nice definitions, but can you show where these
definitions come from?
Mostly from the scriptures themselves. I am pretty sure that the Bible
never explicitly specifies that Enos was Adam's grandson, but the
meaning is clear enough that I can say that anyway. Similarly,
Gary, all this side discussion about Alma 13 and such is interesting
enough, and I'm happy enough to continue it -- though I suspect that,
upon review of the relevant teachings and a careful rereading of Alma's
words, you will agree that Alma 13 is much more inclusive than you've
been
I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige.
There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call
because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings.
I hope that it doesn't sound like I am faulting the Lord. I'm simply
pointing
Paul Osborne (replying to someone else):
Right. And your ALSO points out that the money is required
in order to get those high callings of Stake President and up.
___
I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to
be called as a stake president.
I can further
-Paul-
The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people
are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money.
If I remember correctly, Elder Packer spent his professional life in the
CES, a job practically guaranteed to keep you dressed in rags.
Stephen
I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to
be called as a stake president.
I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the
money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. The guys who get
called in third world countries are the merchants and
My former stake president was a public school teacher and later an
administrator and my current stake president is in a similar income
bracket. Both of them are most likely below the 50th percentile with
regard to income within the stake boundaries.
How can you justify statements like that,
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an
apostle?
To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles?
Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind.
Vic
--- Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Don't
Paul Osborne:
I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to
be called as a stake president.
I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen
that the money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts.
... It's one of those unwritten rules. ;-)
To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles?
Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither
President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their
employment, so Paul's theory fails in those cases
Mark Gregson wrote:
To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles?
Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither
President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their
employment, so Paul's theory fails
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a
rancher, as an apostle?
A janitor, a manual laborer, and a machinist are not qualified to become
apostles but a rich rancher and a rich farmer could be considered.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:09:51 -0500 Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Did I say that a man had to be wealthy to become a GA? The unwritten
rule
is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a
prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is
looking
Paul Osborne:
... to become a GA? The unwritten rule is that he has to
have money and resources. He almost always has a
prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the
Lord is looking for. If you don't have those benefits you
can't be called to be a GA, let alone a SP.
At 11:41 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Gary Smith wrote:
It is partially an issue of maturity/age: placing those who have not had
a line authority position requiring HP status, into the HP quorum/group,
in order to strengthen the individual and also to strengthen the quorum.
Yes but that is not what
Gary Smith wrote:
You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver
platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver spoon in
the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education they
received was from hard work.
Do you think any of them had been
At 08:47 AM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Paul Osborne wrote:
I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige.
There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call
because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings.
I hope that it doesn't
What is your definition of money? Is it $40,000? $50,000? $100,000?
$1,000,000?
My definition of money is when you have it in the bank and you don't owe
anyone anything except perhaps the mortgage.
Most school administrators I know make about $50K. So if that is your
definition of money,
At 12:03 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a
rancher, as an apostle? To test this out - what are the current or former
occupations of the apostles? Its interesting that a carpenter ended up
saving mankind.
---
I agree with everything you are saying Gary but I'm not thinking that all
the GA's were born with silver spoons. I know they worked hard and got
educated and have fine jobs that pay quite well. That is the nature of
the man who gets the call. I am merely pointing out how the Lord does
business and
At 09:43 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Gary Smith wrote:
There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some
recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most would
prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an apostle or
stake president, but the humble ones
I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order to stir up
a
discussion. I coached him while he was here. grin
It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul?
Yep. Your s right John. I like to be provocative and stir things up.
It's fun, but I would feel bad if I hurt someones
-John-
I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But that
fewer than 5 percent of high priests are inactive. Can anyone
here confirm or deny this?
I can't confirm or deny Church-wide, of course, but around here that's
not the case. 50% is approximately right for the elders,
I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But that fewer than
5
percent of high priests are inactive. Can anyone here confirm or deny
this?
Sounds about right. Keep in mind though that this also includes the
perspective elders who never got ordained.
Gee wizz. Now I feel like
At 11:29 PM 10/23/02, Stephen Beecroft wrote:
I do agree with at least one thing you've said: High priests are far
more likely to be active than elders.
Physically?
;-)
--Ronn! :)
I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
Till writes:
What??? I thought that was just the special
grip that we use to keep each other from falling
out of chairs when we fell asleep.
___
Oh, Till. It serves a far more important purpose than that.
As you shake right hands, place two fingers of the
left hand just
At 08:48 10/22/2002 -0400, Patient noJ wrote:
Till - every time we went over this handshake I tried to wake you up, but to
no avail. I would have had your home teacher go over it with you, but we
can only teach it in the HP group meeting.
They sure were cool dreams, too. Something to do with
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 Marc A. Schindler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that
sincerely),
so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are
unlikely, for one
reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're
At 12:08 10/22/2002 -0600, M Marc wrote:
My spouse is a Vulcan, and she's giving me the death grip.
Till was Vulcanized once. To keep his brains from leaking
out. Unfortunately, it was too little, too late
Till who's too tired to go round and round on this, so just wheel me
on
-Gary-
The only person among Elders with keys is the Elders Quorum president.
In other words, the only elder with keys is the presiding elder. Well,
of course. And the only high priest with keys is the presiding high
priest.
Yet, his keys are limited.
As are the bishop's or stake
I think I see your point, even past the tongue in your cheek, and hadn't thought
about that. The Lord needs a pool to draw from, and the HP are that pool, so
whether any given HP is or is not eventually called to what I keep calling a
posiiton of line authority (to use a secular term) is
Gary said:
There isn't anymore salvation promised to a high priest as to
an elder (as the MP is all that is required in this life),
Yep.
but
eventually (presumably if not now, in the next life) one will
have to be a high priest to preside over a presidency in heaven.
I don't think so Gary
Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that sincerely),
so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are unlikely, for one
reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably righteous,
temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to
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