Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
Once again Paul, you find it easy to throw out accusations but are unable to back your words up. I am not trying to get you going about anything. The discussion was in regard to FAIR and what they had to say. You have been unwilling to come up with anything to back up your statements. An apology or at least a retraction would be in order, but I do not expect that it will be forthcoming. George - Original Message - From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon > > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 07:22:05 -0600 George Cobabe > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > OK, Paul I will forget it, especially if you will not just throw > > irresponsible statements and claims about just any old way. > > > > George > > > Oh come on George, you're just trying to get me started. I'm not that > dumb. I've been around the block a few times. It won't work this time. > I'm going to keep quiet this time and let you wonder about why it is > FARMS apologists are now saying that the Nephites used wooden swords to > counter the lack of physical evidence at the foot of the hill Cumorah and > that FARMS has bowed to science who says there were no horses in America > so they now say they rode deer and not horses as translated by Joseph, > so, I'll be responsible and not just throw statements out on the Zion > list to upset people like you; my mouth is sealed. > > > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.
You might think of how Lamanites were described in the BofM. It was not based on race or lineage, rather on the state of righteousness. The membership of the group was constantly changing from one time to another. We recognize in the church the principle of adoption. We give the blessing and all else to the adopted person. In the same way many of the descendants of the the orginal group*S* of people found themselves aligned with either the Nephites or the Lamanites. I think that the statement "principal" ancestors has more to lead to confusion than is necessary, but it can be read in an entirely different way, than most people understandablly read it, to allow for it to be entirely correct. At any rate it is clear that there were a great deal more of the "native" populations involved in the current "native" populations that just direct desendants of Lehi. George - Original Message - From: "R. Kent Francis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 7:50 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C. > Kent wonders: > So does that mean that only the indians in New York are their descendents, > or that the Araucano indians in Southern Chile are also their descendents, > or that all Indians of whatever lineage are their descendents, or that > early Church leaders were making a gross generalization? > > Ronn! Blankenship wrote: > > > At 08:52 PM 8/12/03 -0600, R. Kent Francis wrote: > > > >> Kent Francis writes: > >> > >> If we look at the Bible as history, the distances involved are less > >> than 500 > >> miles by 100 miles and the area was inhabited by Phoenesian, > >> Philistines, Syrians, Egyptians and other peoples in addition to the > >> Israelites... who were at various times in their history politically > >> fractionated. > >> Why have we subscribed to the concept that all the native americans were > >> Nephite/Lamanites? > > > > > > > > > > Probably due to the statement in the introduction to the BoM which > > states that they are the "principal ancestors" . . . > > > > > > > > -- Ronn! :) > > > > // > > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > / > > > > > > > > > > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:13:22 -0600 George Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Paul, you should know that the FAIR message boards are not the FAIR > members, > but rather visitors who post what they want. If that is the best > you can > do - accuse FAIR of being responsible for everything on the message > boards > then you need to correct yourself and tell it correctly. > > Now it you can give me a reference I will check it out, but I have > no time > to do your homework and cover your statements for you. > > George Ok, George, Just forget it then. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America
Gold is often found as nuggets of the pure metal or as veins of the pure metal in quartz, while iron, which is much more chemically reactive, is never found free in nature (except occasionally in the form of meteorites) and requires a rather high temperature (higher than you can get with a regular open flame, so you need a bellows) to extract it from ore with the help of a reducing agent such as charcoal. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, IIRC, there were some people somewhere in the Middle East who had figured out how to extract iron from ore by about 900 BC. At 09:39 PM 8/11/03 -0400, Scott McGee wrote: Right, that makes more sense. One is the process of melting metal from ore and working the metal, the other is more, uh, well, melting metal from ore, and, hmm, working the metal. Maybe that doesn't make much sense after all. Scott George Cobabe wrote: I think that there is a difference between melting and working gold and the making of metal alloys such as steel. I think that is what is being objected to when they say they was no metal working. George - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:20 PM Subject: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America http://www.geotimes.org/aug03/resources.html I found an article on mining and metallurgy in ancient America, mostly in NW South America. I have heard some object to the Book of Mormon on grounds that there has been no evidence of a metal working culture in American archaeology. Apparently I'm missing something. Isn't gold a metal? And didn't the Spanish conquistadors take mountains of gold back to the Old World even to the point of causing a great inflation? Undoubtedly I just don't understand the objection being made. To be honest, I haven't made a study of it, apologetics not being one of my strong interests. Question: Do we yet know where Lehi landed in the Americas, and where the earliest Lehite colonies were? Is it still generally thought that he landed on the coast of modern Chile, or was that ever a popular theory? -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
At 07:14 AM 8/11/2003, you wrote: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:59:17 -0600 George Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > For more on this issue you might want to check out fairlds.com. > This is a > group of LDS apologists that are tracking the issue. Yeah, and this lousy board just excommunicated me for making statements about physiological differences of African lips and that Jesus could not have been black because of the seed of Cain. This world is getting so PC, I can hardly stand to live in it anymore. Who is claiming that Jesus was black? Ideas like this is why I tend to steer away from FAIR--in my experience I've found them to be a bunch of wannabe scholars but lacking in far too many areas. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Bankruptcy and LDS
Dear John wrote: (my comments inserted) - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 9:36 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Bankruptcy and LDS > Jim Cobabe wrote: > >The liberal perspective examined... > > > >http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2003/feat_2003-07-31.cfm > > I found the article very frustrating. After reading the first half of it, > I discovered that the second half was off the right side of my screen with > no way to access it. > > Let's see. The Brethren ask us to: > > 1) Keep a year's supply of food, clothing, and fuel This is done slowly over time, rotating our food, buying the same food we eat dailyu as our food storage. It may take years, but we can achieve it. > > 2) Go on a mission A young man does not have to go on a mission on his 19th birthday. He can stay at home and save his money while working, paying his own way. Also, there ane many in this church who pay for others to go on missions. If the money is that tight, whatever the young man cannot afford will be paid for by others. > > 3) Get an education Community colleges, scholarships, etc. > > 4) Own our own home If we can afford it. or move to where you can afford it. Or live in a trailer or a mobile home. > > 5) Pay our debts I.e., live within your means. > > 6) Keep the wife at home While the children are high school or below. > > 7) Have as many children as we can as we can ... afford. An important distinction. > > 8) Save for a rainy day it's called Dabaseering (have you read The Richest Man in Babylon? - save 10% of your income, after returning 10% to the Lord as tithing - pay yourself first and live on the rest.) (I think I spelled that word wrong, but the definition is the same.) > > 9) Send our sons on missions See 2 above. Our sons can/should pay their own way. > > 10) Serve a senior's mission after retirement We can serve a senior mission right where we live - we don't have to go anywhere or live anywhere else. > > 11) Pay tithing People say "pay". Actually, if we believe as Brigham did/does, we own nothing; it is all the Lord's. We just show him that we acknowledge this by giving a token amount to support his church and his plan here on Earth. > > 12) Contribute a generous fast offering As generous as we can afford. This should not "cost" us anything, since we are simply taking the money we WOULD have spent and giving it to others. No net change in financial position, just a new change in our waistlines! > > Add it all up, and a man has to be a millionaire just to follow prophetic > counsel. Who has all this income? Not I. Although I must admit that I have a very generous income, I am not a millionaire by any means. If we do our very best to joyfully live the Lord's commandments as we commit to do every Sacrament meeting, then we will have enough, and we will have done enough, to satisfy the Lord. (I must stipulate here that I am not yet ready to die, because I don't think that I have done enough or tried hard enough. But I am doing better than a year ago!) Don't you agree? Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
At 08:58 PM 8/11/2003 -0400, Grampa Bill wrote: Paul Osborne wrote: I'm brutally honest just like JR is but with less tact. Grampa Bill asks: Less tact than JR? Hard to believe! :-) Till says: Hard to conceive! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America
Right, that makes more sense. One is the process of melting metal from ore and working the metal, the other is more, uh, well, melting metal from ore, and, hmm, working the metal. Maybe that doesn't make much sense after all. Scott George Cobabe wrote: I think that there is a difference between melting and working gold and the making of metal alloys such as steel. I think that is what is being objected to when they say they was no metal working. George - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:20 PM Subject: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America http://www.geotimes.org/aug03/resources.html I found an article on mining and metallurgy in ancient America, mostly in NW South America. I have heard some object to the Book of Mormon on grounds that there has been no evidence of a metal working culture in American archaeology. Apparently I'm missing something. Isn't gold a metal? And didn't the Spanish conquistadors take mountains of gold back to the Old World even to the point of causing a great inflation? Undoubtedly I just don't understand the objection being made. To be honest, I haven't made a study of it, apologetics not being one of my strong interests. Question: Do we yet know where Lehi landed in the Americas, and where the earliest Lehite colonies were? Is it still generally thought that he landed on the coast of modern Chile, or was that ever a popular theory? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- The family that prays together, stays together. --- Scott McGee ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) web site: http://themcgees.org/scott/ // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure and ...
Why should those who follow God in this age or era expect a test which is different from that faced by people who follow God in any other age or era, if that is what you are saying? Most people do not have an opportunity to do great and special things for which their names will go down in history, but are called to do their work in their families and their neighborhoods. Or are you suggesting that only those who do some thing that earns them a place in history will qualify for exaltation? At 06:38 AM 7/17/03 -0500, Stacy Smith wrote: I don't buy that completely as that could be the test of any age or era. Stacy. At 06:28 AM 07/17/2003 -0500, you wrote: At 07:16 AM 7/17/03 -0400, Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: At 01:55 PM 7/13/2003 -0500, St Stacy wrote: What would such a test consist of? Physical endurance? Brainwashing? Torture or something less diabolical such as integrity? What about martyrdom? Can we have any stories? I wonder if for many of us the test may not be being asked to endure torture or kill someone, but may be more like "enduring to the end" despite things such as chronic illness, handicap, poverty, loneliness, etc. . . . -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Bankruptcy and LDS
On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 17:36:49 -0800 "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I found the article very frustrating. After reading the first half > of it, > I discovered that the second half was off the right side of my > screen with > no way to access it. > > Let's see. The Brethren ask us to: > > 1) Keep a year's supply of food, clothing, and fuel > > 2) Go on a mission > > 3) Get an education > > 4) Own our own home > > 5) Pay our debts > > 6) Keep the wife at home > > 7) Have as many children as we can > > 8) Save for a rainy day > > 9) Send our sons on missions > > 10) Serve a senior's mission after retirement > > 11) Pay tithing > > 12) Contribute a generous fast offering > > Add it all up, and a man has to be a millionaire just to follow > prophetic > counsel. Who has all this income? Not I. It's a paradox. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
delete it is, with a knowing smile on my face :-) George - Original Message - From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon > > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:34:15 -0600 George Cobabe > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Once again Paul, you find it easy to throw out accusations but are > > unable to > > back your words up. I am not trying to get you going about > > anything. The > > discussion was in regard to FAIR and what they had to say. You have > > been > > unwilling to come up with anything to back up your statements. > > > > An apology or at least a retraction would be in order, but I do not > > expect > > that it will be forthcoming. > > > > George > > > Spare me, please. Go do your research. I can talk off the cuff if I want. > If you don't like it just press delete. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] The Exodus from Nauvoo
I have to admit that I didn't know that much about Nauvoo and what happened to the Saints until I read the "150 Years Ago Today" series that began on Zion. It grew into what we now know as Gems. My ancestors were there alone with my wife's. (Please don't think that I'm announcing that I'm a great Latter-day Saint just because my family was at Nauvoo - I still have a LONG way to go just to get myself where I need to be). As I read the narrative, I gained a testimony of a couple of things. First, the Saints needed a decision point. Would they, one last time, submit themselves to hardship by remaining loyal to the Gospel. Many didn't, not a huge group, but some certainly didn't decide to move west - they felt that their comfort, safety, and wealth were more important than eternal life. They took the easy route and became Re-Organites, etc. Second, and a by-product of the first, a cleansing of Zion was needed. A final (for then) culling of the heard was needed to build Zion in the mountains. The Prophet Brigham Young didn't need his attention diverted by taking care of dissention in the West while he was building the initial infrastructure for Utah, Idaho, etc. A peaceful period was needed from those who would harm or make afraid the Saints. Third, and perhaps most iportantly, Joseph needed to seal his testimony. How much more powerful did the testimony of the first vision and the Book of Mormon become when he gave himself up like a lamb going to the slaughter. He declared himself calm as the morning as he and the patriarch submitted themselves to the authorities (gods) of this world. I stood there in the street where the wagons were queued up to cross the Mississippi. There was a plaque there amongst the others quoting my ancestor. I wept openly as I read it. Even though I am adopted into the family and none of his blood flows through my veins, I was and am greatful to him and all he went through. I'm greatful to another ancestor who died at Winter Quarters, leaving behind two young wives who had to make the rest of the journey relying on each other and the generosity of the Saints on the trail and in Utah to raise up a righteous family. I know that it will happen again. To tell you the truth, I look forward to it. I'm REALLY tired of those who declare themselves royal families, who know that we can buy anything in this world with money, who thnk of those of us who have sufficient for our needs are lesser members of the Church. It will be interesting to see how many of us will actually be left. But this is where my knowledge of the prophesies gets sketchy. Will this be just before another exodus, this time to Independence, MO? I hear this discussed in some quarters but I'm unclear as to when this will happen and its timing. Tom John W. Redelfs wrote: > I've been reading THE STORY OF THE LATTER-DAY SAINTS by James B. Allen > and Glen M. Leonard, and I just read the part where the saints were > forced to leave Nauvoo in February, 1846, months before their planned > departure in April. I was especially moved by the story of the saints > who were too poor to make the trek, but who were forced across the > river nevertheless. Reading this history, I just can't help feeling > a deep resentment towards the American people who either persecuted > the saints or looked the other way while they were persecuted. > > Over a thousand saints died on the trail that first winter, the winter > of 1846-47. Disgusting. > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "There is no place in this work for those who believe only > in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good > news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
Who is keeping up on the DNA evidence supporting or refuting the Book of Mormon on the origins of the American Indian? I notice that there is some kind of symposium coming up on whether or not DNA evidence supports or refutes a middle eastern origin for Native Americans. Surely if Lehi was a Hebrew and the ancestor of some significant portion of today's Lamanites, that fact will be buttressed by DNA evidence, don't you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Welcome back Rusty!
Welcome back, Rusty! I'm sure that teaching seminary for 4 years was an amazing experience. It's good to see you on this list again. Heidi the fair > > ** > > For those of you who are long-time Zion members, you may remember me - > Rusty Taylor. I've been on John's lists off and on since the beginning... > anyone else remember the awesome cyber-food fights we had? Well, I've been > teaching Seminary for the last 4 years and didn't have time to do that and > be on this list. Now, I'm done for a while. I need a break. Our oldest > son has left on his mission and our younger son will be a senior in high > school this year. I want to spend more time with him before he goes on his > mission. > > For those of you who don't know me - I joined the Church at 16 with my > parents and younger 2 sisters (an older brother was away at college at the > time and has never joined). We were baptized at the Joseph Smith Memorial > in Sharon, VT. I went to school at BYU and went on a mission to Sapporo, > Japan. Then I met my husband, Bob - we got married, moved to Alaska and > ended up in Kotzebue. That's where we met John and Esperanza. After 6 > years and adopting our sons, we moved back to the lower 48, and have lived > on the Kitsap Peninsula (across the Puget Sound from Seattle) ever since. > I work for the local school district. I don't have a Church calling at the > moment. > > I'm looking forward to being part of "Zion", again. Yoroshiku onegai > itashimasu! > > Sis. Rusty > > >Persecution against the Saints does not have to assume the same form as > >those overt violent acts against the Church in the Nauvoo period. Even > >more hateful and vindictive injustice was weighed against the Church > >after it was established in the Rocky Mountains. The extent of the > >bureacratic and legalistic punishment of the Church by the US Government > >during that period is difficult to fathom. Such predations could easily > >be revisited in the near future. It seems that all the motivation > >required during the earlier period of anti-Mormon aggression was the > >manipulation of public sentiment by powerful people in high places. Are > >people any more sophisticated today? > > > ** >"There are no coincidences, only small miracles." Author Unknown > > Mrs. Rusty Taylor - Poulsbo, WA > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) > website -- http://pacific.telebyte.com/~brtaylor/ > ** > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
No, I do not. The idea that the DNA from a small group of about 20-30 people in the Lehi party would have a significant impact on the populations already in the Americas is hard to accept and understand. If you can somehow show what kind of DNA you are looking for you will already be way ahead of those who are claiming they cannot find it. What does the DNA of Lehi look like Furthermmore it is the female DNA that passes down intact through the years and most of the female lineage is not identified in the BofM. What is the linage of Ismael and Zoram? For more on this issue you might want to check out fairlds.com. This is a group of LDS apologists that are tracking the issue. George - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 9:00 PM Subject: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon > Who is keeping up on the DNA evidence supporting or refuting the Book of > Mormon on the origins of the American Indian? > > I notice that there is some kind of symposium coming up on whether or not > DNA evidence supports or refutes a middle eastern origin for Native > Americans. Surely if Lehi was a Hebrew and the ancestor of some > significant portion of today's Lamanites, that fact will be buttressed by > DNA evidence, don't you think? > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "There is no place in this work for those who believe only > in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good > news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:58:46 -0600 Steven Montgomery > Who is claiming that Jesus was black? Ideas like this is why I tend > to > steer away from FAIR--in my experience I've found them to be a bunch > of > wannabe scholars but lacking in far too many areas. It was an anti who posted the link just to be cute. I made some simple observations and got banned. But, I will say that I was pretty rough on the board previous to that and stirred up trouble and you know I say exactly what's on my mind. Lots of people don't like that because it's offensive but I'm brutally honest just like JR is but with less tact. The FAIR guys think they know it all. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.
Kent Francis writes:
If we look at the Bible as history, the distances involved are less than 500
miles by 100 miles and the area was inhabited by Phoenesian, Philistines,
Syrians, Egyptians and other peoples in addition to the Israelites... who
were at various times in their history politically fractionated.
Why have we subscribed to the concept that all the native americans were
Nephite/Lamanites?
The various tribes of the Americas (from both genetic and language
groupings) are divided into groups:
1. The Eskimo-Aleut groups (10 languages & 85,000 speakers)
2. The Na-Dene - (not related to groups 1 or 3-8)
North-Western Na-Dene - Haida, Tlingit, & Athabaskan (30 languages)
Southern Na-Dene - Apache, Cree, & Navaho (130,000 speakers) - arrived
in SW from the north about 1200 AD
583 Amerind languages and groups:
3. Northern Amerind
a1. Almosan - includes Kutenai, Algonquian, Cree, Ojibwa, and 3 other
languages - Canada & NewEngland
a2. Keresiouan - includes Keres, Liouan, Iroquoian, Caddoan - Midwest to
Atlantic coast - Cherokee
b. Penutian - Oregon and Calif, SouthEast , Gulf group - Pima, Papago,
Nahua,
SouthernMexico group (Huava, Mixe-Zoque, Totonacan),
and the Maya in Yucatan and Guatamala same group in NewMexico = Zuni
c. Hokan - calif & parts of Az
4. Central Amerind
a. Chibchan sw Mexico, central america south of Yucatan, Venezual &
North Brazil includes Yanomame & Guaymi.
b. Paezan (north Florida, Colombia coast, Ecuador, Chilean Andes/coast
5. 20 Andean languages (Quechua and Aymara - Inca empire) Mapuche =
Araucanians
6. Equatorial - Tucanoan 9 groups in western Brazil
7. Eqauatorial Caribbean islands, Uraguay, Venezuala, Ckolombia, Ecuador,
Peru, Central & Eastern Brazil
8. Ge-Pano-Carib - Southern Brazil
By looking at the different distributions of blood allele's in the native
populations sampled, there is a high correlation with both geographical and
lingusitic factors that allow separations into distinct (non-related) groups.
Perhaps when someone dives into the data, we could identify a group that
might in fact qualify for the Nephites that we are looking for... if only
one of the three Nephites would drop by for a blood test {8^)...
well let me digress to a former posting I made:
First of all I am NOT claiming that Bolivia is the site for Zarahemla {8^).
I am like everyone else urging caution in jumping to conclusions - however,
I am looking for parallels and hints as a way of trying to understand who
the Book of Mormon Peoples might have been and where they might have lived.
I don't believe (as many of my ancestors did) that all indians are Lamanites.
I believe that the Book of Mormon may have been a localized account rather
than the history of all of North, Central, and South America. The rise of
the Olmec and Mayan civilizations do correlate to Book of Mormon Histories
of the Jaredites and Nephites/Lamanites; hence the attempt by many to build
a geographical correlation in Guatamala. What pointed me in the direction
of Bolivia is a chance statement from the Genome project which I have been
studying.
First of all, a related article in the popular press which some have reacted
to by stating that "there are no Lamanites here".
(My research is a few years old so there may have been some advances in this
area)
Native Americans may be able to trace heritage to rare gene
Copyright (c) 1996 Nando.net
Copyright (c) 1996 San Francisco Examiner
SAN FRANCISCO (Jan 10, 1996 11:04 a.m. EST) -- All Native Americans
may be able to trace their heritage back to a rare genetic mutation
in one man, passed on about 30,000 years ago to his son and future
descendants, according to new Stanford University research.
A search of more than 500 DNA samples from populations around the
world revealed a mutation on the Y chromosome found only in Indian
populations in North and South America and in Eskimo groups.
This one-time mutation is a genetic footprint of our forebears'
prehistoric wanderings across the Americas -- and is still imprinted
in the genetic code of today's native Americans.
"We think that somewhere back in human history, there was this
unique mutation event," lead researcher Peter Underhill, a research
associate in genetics at Stanford University, said Monday. "It
probably happened only once, on one Y chromosome, and a faithful
copy (of the mutation) was passed on from this father to his son,
and all future offspring."
The mutation is found in samples of blood and hair of people
representing all three far-flung language groups of native
Americans, thought to have split up and gone their separate ways
long ago: Amerind, represented by South American Indians; Na-Dene,
represented by groups such as the Navajos; and Eskimo-Aleut.
Researchers say this suggests that the genetic mutation may have
occurred before the split and subsequent language differentiation --
perha
Re: [ZION] The Exodus from Nauvoo
You know, it's interesting you mention the KKK. I was thinking of them when I wrote the part about "Laws". The Grand Dragon Wizard, or whatever the big conehead is called, lives not 5 miles from where I live. The first weekend in August, they hold their White Pride Festival. This year, they had planned to march to town hall (it's in a little town called Osceola) in order to burn a cross. The residents of that community have zero tolerance for hate. So they had a year ago filed for a permit to hold a Tolerance Rally. There were vendors, a blood drive going etc. Because the residents had already gotten permission for their rally, the KKK was ordered, by the court, to NOT burn their cross. Of course, the old Loy boys threatened violation of their Constitutional right to free speech, but no one bought it. Then, in the paper the next day, the media reported the lower than usual attendance at the White Pride thing. Not even 100 people showed up, but those who did came from all over the country. Their compound is right on the county line between St. Joseph and Elkhart County. I live in St. Joe, and teach in Elkhart, so the kids I teach, many whom are biracial, Hispanic, and black, have been harrassed and persecuted by these idiots. One family, who adopted all their kids, even got threats because of their biracial son. I'll tell you, when I heard that, I was shocked. I'd had the kid in 6th grade and didn't even realize he was anything but an ornery kid. Hate is learned. Period. In order to change one's thinking, one has to really want to. I grew up in a very racist home. My dad, whom I consider to be an elect man, was extremely prejudice. I never understood it and even questioned it as a child. My dad died 23 years ago. Then, a couple years ago, my aunt (Dad's sister) died, and my cousin moved back here from San Diego. She filled me in on many family stories. The most horrifying to me was finding out that when my grandfather died, the KKK came to collect his robes. He was one of them. Then it all made sense. My father, in spite if his imperfections, had improved my lot, because he was not KKK, even though he was still racist. Tom and I raised our children to be less racist than we were raised. It was a conscious thing. I still have thoughts and sometimes, when I'm angry, words slip out. I don't like it. Fortunately, my children, now, call me to repentance. They are better than I. Hopefully they will raise their children to be even less racist and eventually the cycle of prejudice will end for my line. I can only hope and pray. This is the same pattern we see repeated in the Book of Mormon. The sins of the fathers. . .in the case of our local KKK, it is a father/son thing. Railton Loy and Richard Loy. I had a Loy child in my class who, last time I saw her, was in alternative school and trying to make sense of her life. Sad. At one time, one of the Loy's jumped on one of the school busses that his child was supposed to ride. He ordered all black and Hispanic kids off the bus because his kid wasn't going to ride with anything but white kids. Of course, he was removed and arrested because the bus driver refused his request. I know this is long, but I guess what I'm trying to show is that, yes, even with laws, it will still happen. I don't think, though, that the persecution will have the backing of the government as it did in the days of Boggs. At least not overtly. In fact, I think the persecution this time will be more subtle, and because of the subversiveness, potentially more destructive than the mobs. Satan is no fool. He had the mobs attack the earlier Saints where it hurt--food, housing, clothing etc. Now, he uses media etc. to attack families, our youth, etc. Read President Hinckley's priesthood address from October 2000. It left an impression on me. Here's the link http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-138-22,00.html That is why we must prove ourselves by exercising faith, gaining testimony, standing firm on the rock of the gospel. Our pioneer ancestors have already proven that we can stand together as a people, now we have to prove we can stand alone as a covenant people of Christ. val On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 21:52:07 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Even though our country has laws against certain forms of > persecution > (would it fall under "hate crimes"?), I believe that when it comes > to the > Saints, those laws will be ignored. I believe that any breaking of > those > laws will be overlooked, much as KKK activities were overlooked for > so > long. Laws or no laws, we are going to be persecuted. I believe > that it > has already begun, though not yet widespread. > > Faith, like Pres. Hinckley said, is the key. With faith, I can feel > pity > for those who have persecuted the Saints and will yet persecute > because > eventually they are going to have to pay a terrible price and they > don't > even know it. What a
[ZION] The Exodus from Nauvoo
I've been reading THE STORY OF THE LATTER-DAY SAINTS by James B. Allen and Glen M. Leonard, and I just read the part where the saints were forced to leave Nauvoo in February, 1846, months before their planned departure in April. I was especially moved by the story of the saints who were too poor to make the trek, but who were forced across the river nevertheless. Reading this history, I just can't help feeling a deep resentment towards the American people who either persecuted the saints or looked the other way while they were persecuted. Over a thousand saints died on the trail that first winter, the winter of 1846-47. Disgusting. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:39:36 -0800 "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I doubt if you will get banned on this list, Paul. We are not PC. > Of > course, if you really tried --JWR Thanks JR, as I do try to be extra good around here. I do have to say though that I almost cried when I found out that apologists at BYU now say the Nephites rode deer and not horses. Now we have wooden swords and deer. Somehow that is not what I think Joseph Smith was seeing in the Urim & Thummim. I'm sad. :-( Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.
Could these have been the Jaredites, Paul? Apparently they date back much further than the Olmec. What are the dates for the Tower of Babel anyway? --JWR --- Newsweek Story --- New World Pyramids; By Sharon Begley With Joseph Contreras in Lima and Rachel Hays in Caral Newsweek 05-07-2001 New World Pyramids: Scientists have unearthed the oldest known city in the Americas, showing that urban civilization began here 1,500 years earlier than they thought By Sharon Begley With Joseph Contreras in Lima and Rachel Hays in Caral Edition: U.S. Edition Section: Science and Technology Subsection: ARCHEOLOGY They trekked for half a mile, stuffing some 70 pounds of stones collected from the riverbed and surrounding hillsides into open-weave bags made of reeds. Returning to the terrace 80 feet above the river valley, the workers set the rocks, bags and all, inside cut-stone retaining walls that formed the rectangular base of a pyramid that would eventually rise 60 feet. Then they went back for more; the pyramid's base, after all, was bigger than four modern-day football fields. None of this would be particularly remarkable, except for where it was happening--and when. The site, called Caral, lies not in Egypt, but 120 miles north of Lima, Peru, and 12 miles inland from the Pacific Ocean in the foothills of the Andes Mountains. Last week archeologists announced that it dates from 2627 B.C., the same era when Egyptian slaves were building the Great Pyramids and a full 1,500 years before scientists thought urban civilization began in the New World. "This is the oldest human settlement of any social complexity ever found in the Americas," says archeologist Ruth Shady Solis of San Marcos National University in Lima, who led the excavation. Caral may therefore be "the birthplace of New World civilization," says archeologist Winifred Creamer of Northern Illinois University, a member of the team. Today, Caral is not much to look at. Desert hills covered in sunbaked sand ring a cluster of earthen mounds, which appear no more notable than a bunch of overgrown prairie-dog hills. But appearances deceive. Beneath the windblown sands of time each mound is actually a complex, pyramid-shaped structure built more than 4,000 years ago. Although archeologists knew in 1905 that something once stood at Caral, the site was overlooked in favor of others containing--yes, researchers can be suckers for all that glitters, too--gold. But when Shady turned to Caral in 1994, she found that it had something even better, as she and her collaborators report in the journal Science. Six pyramids dot the center of the city, along with two sunken plazas; eight residential neighborhoods and numerous smaller "platform mounds" sprawl beyond. Along the terraced sides of the largest pyramid, one eighth the height of the Great Pyramid of Khufu, staircases lead to a flat apex, site of a suite of rooms and fire pit probably used for religious rituals. The five other pyramids may have been the equivalent of a modern city's many houses of worship--or clubs. "The people of Caral were beginning to form social classes, and each stratum of society might have belonged to a different pyramid," says Rocio Aramburu, who was directing excavations last week. Inside the foundation of one, the archeologists found the remains of an 18-month-old boy, reflecting the practice of many pre-Incan peoples of offering a little boy to the gods. The planning and labor mobilization required to build the pyramids hint that some centralized authority was calling the shots. Each of the six stands amid formally arranged groups of houses--history's first planned communities. Smaller pyramids, each with a flight of stairs leading to rooms with a view, probably housed Caral's elite. A group of adobe homes was probably a middle-class enclave for "craftsmen, people who spun cotton, wove textiles, made tools, managed irrigation or worked for the priests and rulers," Creamer says. On Caral's periphery, structures made of wooden poles, cane and mud were the homes of servants or peasants who farmed cotton, beans, guava and squash, or hauled rocks for the latest temple. "The buildings imply an advanced knowledge of architecture, engineering, geometry--all the mathematical sciences," says Aramburu. One of Caral's more striking structures is the Temple of the Amphitheater, one of two sunken circular plazas where residents probably gathered to watch religious ceremonies. The temple also boasts an elevated atrium that archeologists suspect was a semiprivate space, reserved for ceremonies of maybe 20 people. "The bulk of the structures are ceremonial," says Aramburu. "If they built something, they did so for religious purposes. We haven't found warehouses for storing food, for example." But they have found signs of irrigation, making Caral one of the first civilizations in the Americas
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
Paul Osborne wrote: I'm brutally honest just like JR is but with less tact. Grampa Bill asks: Less tact than JR? Hard to believe! :-) Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
OK, Paul I will forget it, especially if you will not just throw irresponsible statements and claims about just any old way. George - Original Message - From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:55 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon > > On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:13:22 -0600 George Cobabe > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Paul, you should know that the FAIR message boards are not the FAIR > > members, > > but rather visitors who post what they want. If that is the best > > you can > > do - accuse FAIR of being responsible for everything on the message > > boards > > then you need to correct yourself and tell it correctly. > > > > Now it you can give me a reference I will check it out, but I have > > no time > > to do your homework and cover your statements for you. > > > > George > > > Ok, George, Just forget it then. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List
It would be nice to have a repentance behavior; after all, there is for the church. Why not Fair? Stacy. At 01:23 PM 08/11/2003 -0800, you wrote: George Cobabe wrote: I do not believe that anyone on FAIR would make such a claim. Paul O. was not speaking of that group of people when he expressed his concern. I am sorry that you have found them lacking in so many areas, but I do not think any of them would claim to be entirely proficent in any area, let alone every area. Many of them have made good contributions that are at least worthy of consideration, if nothing more than as a bad example. The only problem that I have with FAIR is that they kicked me off their list. This was so long ago I can't even remember what my disliked behavior was. I'm sure I deserved it. Still, I think that some of them are pretty thin skinned. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 07/14/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America
http://www.geotimes.org/aug03/resources.html I found an article on mining and metallurgy in ancient America, mostly in NW South America. I have heard some object to the Book of Mormon on grounds that there has been no evidence of a metal working culture in American archaeology. Apparently I'm missing something. Isn't gold a metal? And didn't the Spanish conquistadors take mountains of gold back to the Old World even to the point of causing a great inflation? Undoubtedly I just don't understand the objection being made. To be honest, I haven't made a study of it, apologetics not being one of my strong interests. Question: Do we yet know where Lehi landed in the Americas, and where the earliest Lehite colonies were? Is it still generally thought that he landed on the coast of modern Chile, or was that ever a popular theory? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] The Exodus from Nauvoo
I didn't see the marriage thing as anything but that--but I'm not into conspiracy as many on this list are ;-). I was actually proud of little Dubyah that he had the guts to stand up for something like marriage. For me, I am glad to have heard the words, "marriage is sacred" spoken by the leader of our country (I wondered at that moment if he hadn't just gotten off the phone with Pres. Hinckley!). The Marriage is one of Satan's many battlefields, as is the family. If he can successfully destroy the family, then the Church will fail. Since we know that's not supposed to happen, can we presume the family is safe? I don't think so. While I don't agree with constitutionalizing marriage, I believe a stand by our leaders is necessary in the fight for the preservation of something as sacred as marriage. val On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:30:34 -0400 Grampa Bill in Savannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote: > > >I don't think, though, that the persecution will have the backing > of the government as it did in the days of Boggs. > > > = > Grampa Bill comments: > snip> There is a movement afoot today to pass a Constitutional > amendment > to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman. This is > being > promoted as a ban on homosexual marriage. I view it as a > Constitutional > sanction against Plural Marriage. Now, I do not know if this > principle > will again be restored prior to the Lord's return. But if this > amendment > is passed and the principle restored, you can bet that the full > armed > might of the government will be raised against us. > People are people. They are no less bigoted and devilish than > they > were a hundred or two hundred years ago. They just have a thin > veneer of > sophistication to hide their bigotry. > Love y'all, > Grampa Bill in Savannah > > / / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List
George Cobabe wrote: That may be Bill, but ZION was supposed to be discontinued in favor of MormonThinkers sometime ago, or so I understood. Obviously it did not completely happen. Huh? I don't understand this at all. Zion and Mormon Thinkers are two completely different lists. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Bankruptcy and LDS
The liberal perspective examined... http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2003/feat_2003-07-31.cfm // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:58:43 -0400 Grampa Bill in Savannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Paul Osborne wrote: > > >I'm brutally honest just like JR is but with less tact. > > > > Grampa Bill asks: > Less tact than JR? > Hard to believe! :-) > Love y'all, > Grampa Bill in Savannah What do you think JWR? Am I worse than you. Be honest! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List
George Cobabe wrote of FAIR: It is without a doubt the best group and list that I have been lucky enough to associate with. = Gramp Bill comments: Well, hrumph! What are we... chopped liver? Tried a lot of 'em. Zion's the best! Love y'all Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:13:35 -0600 George Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Paul: You have such a tendency to throw things around. Could you > provide a > reference for anyone who believes about Deer and Wooden swords? > Hopefully a > url!!! Go to the FAIR message board. I can hardly believe what LDS apologists are saying these days. If you can't find the threads, ask around. I'm banned. Here is an anti-Mormon (James White) URL that I hadn't deleted yet. http://www.equip.org/free/DM755.htm Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.
While the statement quoted is the problem it is never the less the fact that for many, many years the idea of other peoples being there first has been a part of the belief of many people. A careful reading of 1st Nephi would lead you to believe that they were interacting with native people from the very first day of their landing in the New World. George - Original Message - From: "Ronn! Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 11:26 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C. > At 08:52 PM 8/12/03 -0600, R. Kent Francis wrote: > >Kent Francis writes: > > > >If we look at the Bible as history, the distances involved are less than 500 > >miles by 100 miles and the area was inhabited by Phoenesian, Philistines, > >Syrians, Egyptians and other peoples in addition to the Israelites... who > >were at various times in their history politically fractionated. > >Why have we subscribed to the concept that all the native americans were > >Nephite/Lamanites? > > > > Probably due to the statement in the introduction to the BoM which states > that they are the "principal ancestors" . . . > > > > -- Ronn! :) > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List
Whoops, I am confused about some of the changes and going from one list to another some time ago. Please disregard what I said, I was wrong. George - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List > George Cobabe wrote: > >That may be Bill, but ZION was supposed to be discontinued in favor of > >MormonThinkers sometime ago, or so I understood. Obviously it did not > >completely happen. > > Huh? I don't understand this at all. Zion and Mormon Thinkers are two > completely different lists. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List
In the first place, if they ever let me on again I would probably want to only receive mail and not send it unless I wrote the owner and asked if I could ask a question on this or that point. That way the emphasis wuld be on learning rather than socializing at all. Stacy. At 09:33 PM 08/12/2003 -0600, you wrote: I am sure that if one wished to repent of their unacceptable behaviour they would be welcome. It is not the place, however, for political discussion. It is a very specialiazed list and interchange. Not much chit chat or arguing. It is without a doubt the best group and list that I have been lucky enough to associate with. George - Original Message - From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List > It would be nice to have a repentance behavior; after all, there is for the > church. Why not Fair? > > Stacy. > > At 01:23 PM 08/11/2003 -0800, you wrote: > > >George Cobabe wrote: > >>I do not believe that anyone on FAIR would make such a claim. Paul O. was > >>not speaking of that group of people when he expressed his concern. > >> > >>I am sorry that you have found them lacking in so many areas, but I do not > >>think any of them would claim to be entirely proficent in any area, let > >>alone every area. > >> > >>Many of them have made good contributions that are at least worthy of > >>consideration, if nothing more than as a bad example. > > > >The only problem that I have with FAIR is that they kicked me off their > >list. This was so long ago I can't even remember what my disliked > >behavior was. I'm sure I deserved it. Still, I think that some of them > >are pretty thin skinned. --JWR > > > >/// /// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/// // > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 07/14/2003 > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 07/14/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America
Well let me try it again. When you "work" gold you do not change the chemical composition of the original metal - all you do is purify the material and make of it what you want. When you make steel you change the compostion of several metals and other ingredients and make a new metal. It is a chemical process, not just a melting process. Does that make sense? Melting materials and making an object out of it is easy and has been around a long time. Not quite so true of making steel. George - Original Message - From: "Scott McGee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America > Right, that makes more sense. One is the process of melting metal from > ore and working the metal, the other is more, uh, well, melting metal > from ore, and, hmm, working the metal. > > Maybe that doesn't make much sense after all. > > Scott > > George Cobabe wrote: > > >I think that there is a difference between melting and working gold and the > >making of metal alloys such as steel. I think that is what is being > >objected to when they say they was no metal working. > > > >George > > > >- Original Message - > >From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:20 PM > >Subject: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America > > > > > > > > > >>http://www.geotimes.org/aug03/resources.html > >> > >>I found an article on mining and metallurgy in ancient America, mostly in > >>NW South America. I have heard some object to the Book of Mormon on > >>grounds that there has been no evidence of a metal working culture in > >>American archaeology. Apparently I'm missing something. Isn't gold a > >>metal? And didn't the Spanish conquistadors take mountains of gold back > >> > >> > >to > > > > > >>the Old World even to the point of causing a great inflation? Undoubtedly > >>I just don't understand the objection being made. To be honest, I haven't > >>made a study of it, apologetics not being one of my strong interests. > >> > >>Question: Do we yet know where Lehi landed in the Americas, and where the > >>earliest Lehite colonies were? Is it still generally thought that he > >>landed on the coast of modern Chile, or was that ever a popular theory? > >> > >>John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>=== > >>"There is no place in this work for those who believe only > >>in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good > >>news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley > >>=== > >>All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > >> > >> > >> > >> > >/// / > >// > > > > > >>/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >>/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >> > >> > >> > >/// / > >/ > > > > > >> > >> > >> > > > >/// /// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/// // > > > > > > > > > > -- > The family that prays together, stays together. > --- > Scott McGee ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > web site: http://themcgees.org/scott/ > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List
I am sure that if one wished to repent of their unacceptable behaviour they would be welcome. It is not the place, however, for political discussion. It is a very specialiazed list and interchange. Not much chit chat or arguing. It is without a doubt the best group and list that I have been lucky enough to associate with. George - Original Message - From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List > It would be nice to have a repentance behavior; after all, there is for the > church. Why not Fair? > > Stacy. > > At 01:23 PM 08/11/2003 -0800, you wrote: > > >George Cobabe wrote: > >>I do not believe that anyone on FAIR would make such a claim. Paul O. was > >>not speaking of that group of people when he expressed his concern. > >> > >>I am sorry that you have found them lacking in so many areas, but I do not > >>think any of them would claim to be entirely proficent in any area, let > >>alone every area. > >> > >>Many of them have made good contributions that are at least worthy of > >>consideration, if nothing more than as a bad example. > > > >The only problem that I have with FAIR is that they kicked me off their > >list. This was so long ago I can't even remember what my disliked > >behavior was. I'm sure I deserved it. Still, I think that some of them > >are pretty thin skinned. --JWR > > > >/// /// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/// // > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 07/14/2003 > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Book Burning--witchcraft
http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/2003/08/06/local.20030806-sbt-MIC H-D6-Church_members_burn_.sto This link should take you to a story in our Tribune today about a group called Jesus Non-denomination Church that held a book burning. They burned Harry Potter, the Book of Mormon and other "witchcraft" related items. As I read it, I almost had to laugh...won't they be surprised. . .someday love your sis in Mishawaka val .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
Paul Osborne wrote: Yeah, and this lousy board just excommunicated me for making statements about physiological differences of African lips and that Jesus could not have been black because of the seed of Cain. This world is getting so PC, I can hardly stand to live in it anymore. Also, I find the LDS apologetics about wooden swords at Cumorah instead of steel ones to be the most asinine thing I have ever heard in my entire life of 41 years. I would to God the prophets would go into BYU and clean out the house and install men of faith. Anyway, I'm going to shut up now because I seem to get banned just about every where I go. I doubt if you will get banned on this list, Paul. We are not PC. Of course, if you really tried --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] The Exodus from Nauvoo
Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote: For me, I am glad to have heard the words, "marriage is sacred" spoken by the leader of our country (I wondered at that moment if he hadn't just gotten off the phone with Pres. Hinckley!). I agree that President Bush is either the most righteous man we have had for President of the United States in modern times, or the biggest hypocrite. Time will tell. If he is a hypocrite, he has snookered a lot of really wonderful, good people. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] MormonThinkers [was Kicked Off the FAIR List]
Larry Jackson wrote: George Cobabe wrote: ZION was supposed to be discontinued in favor of MormonThinkers sometime ago, or so I understood. Obviously it did not completely happen. ___ This is news to me. Never heard of a list called MormonThinkers. John? Larry Jackson I heard of 'em. In fact, I'm on the Mormon Thinker's list. But Mormon Thinkers is a Johnny Come Lately list. Zion has been around since November of 1993. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] MormonThinkers [was Kicked Off the FAIR List]
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:57:23 GMT Larry Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > This is news to me. Never heard of a list called > MormonThinkers. Neither have I. Though I could think of a list or two which could be called MormonStinkers. *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List
George Cobabe wrote: I do not believe that anyone on FAIR would make such a claim. Paul O. was not speaking of that group of people when he expressed his concern. I am sorry that you have found them lacking in so many areas, but I do not think any of them would claim to be entirely proficent in any area, let alone every area. Many of them have made good contributions that are at least worthy of consideration, if nothing more than as a bad example. The only problem that I have with FAIR is that they kicked me off their list. This was so long ago I can't even remember what my disliked behavior was. I'm sure I deserved it. Still, I think that some of them are pretty thin skinned. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
I do not believe that anyone on FAIR would make such a claim. Paul O. was not speaking of that group of people when he expressed his concern. I am sorry that you have found them lacking in so many areas, but I do not think any of them would claim to be entirely proficent in any area, let alone every area. Many of them have made good contributions that are at least worthy of consideration, if nothing more than as a bad example. George - Original Message - From: "Steven Montgomery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 9:58 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon > At 07:14 AM 8/11/2003, you wrote: > > >On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:59:17 -0600 George Cobabe > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > For more on this issue you might want to check out fairlds.com. > > > This is a > > > group of LDS apologists that are tracking the issue. > > > > > >Yeah, and this lousy board just excommunicated me for making statements > >about physiological differences of African lips and that Jesus could not > >have been black because of the seed of Cain. This world is getting so PC, > >I can hardly stand to live in it anymore. > > Who is claiming that Jesus was black? Ideas like this is why I tend to > steer away from FAIR--in my experience I've found them to be a bunch of > wannabe scholars but lacking in far too many areas. > > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List
Well they did not kick me for suggesting a minor point of doctrine that differed from many peoples beliefs. That is not very thin skinned, at least not as much as some. George - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 3:23 PM Subject: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List > George Cobabe wrote: > >I do not believe that anyone on FAIR would make such a claim. Paul O. was > >not speaking of that group of people when he expressed his concern. > > > >I am sorry that you have found them lacking in so many areas, but I do not > >think any of them would claim to be entirely proficent in any area, let > >alone every area. > > > >Many of them have made good contributions that are at least worthy of > >consideration, if nothing more than as a bad example. > > The only problem that I have with FAIR is that they kicked me off their > list. This was so long ago I can't even remember what my disliked behavior > was. I'm sure I deserved it. Still, I think that some of them are pretty > thin skinned. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
Paul: You have such a tendency to throw things around. Could you provide a reference for anyone who believes about Deer and Wooden swords? Hopefully a url!!! George - Original Message - From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 6:11 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon > > On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:39:36 -0800 "John W. Redelfs" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I doubt if you will get banned on this list, Paul. We are not PC. > > Of > > course, if you really tried --JWR > > > Thanks JR, as I do try to be extra good around here. I do have to say > though that I almost cried when I found out that apologists at BYU now > say the Nephites rode deer and not horses. Now we have wooden swords and > deer. Somehow that is not what I think Joseph Smith was seeing in the > Urim & Thummim. I'm sad. > > :-( > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Bankruptcy and LDS
I had to read this over a couple of times, and then ponder what this writer said before I could respond. My conclusion is that the writer is using flawed logic to make his case. He seems to be saying that we as LDS spend foolishly as long as we pay our tithing because we believe we will be financially rescued. One of our basic tenets is that "Faith without works is dead." I didn't see this mentioned at all. As for the studies done, I believe anyone, can examine any population looking for something and find it--whether the finding is significant or not, it gets written up in a journal and people believe it to be the truth. Instead of attacking the religion, perhaps the writer should have examined the economy and the types of jobs that have been lost. I think there would be a much stronger correlation to that than to the tithing issue. my 2 cents val On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 04:50:58 + Jim Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > The liberal perspective examined... > > http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2003/feat_2003-07-31.cfm > > / / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] power out
I'll bet that Saints living in the areas affected by this huge power outage are either wishing that they were prepared to deal with something of this nature or thankful that they are indeed prepared. I know that my in-laws, who live in between Ottawa and Toronto, are indeed prepared and they'll manage alright enough. I wonder, though...today is my father in law's regular day to work at the Toronto Temple...I imagine they just went on home after securing the temple Heidi the fair Heidi Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:34:15 -0600 George Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Once again Paul, you find it easy to throw out accusations but are > unable to > back your words up. I am not trying to get you going about > anything. The > discussion was in regard to FAIR and what they had to say. You have > been > unwilling to come up with anything to back up your statements. > > An apology or at least a retraction would be in order, but I do not > expect > that it will be forthcoming. > > George Spare me, please. Go do your research. I can talk off the cuff if I want. If you don't like it just press delete. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Are Mormons Modern Gnostics?
Here is the Britannica "Introduction" to the article on "Gnosticism:" Gnosticism philosophical and religious movement prominent in the Greco-Roman world in the 2nd century AD. While Gnosticism drew from and influenced in turn many traditional religions, its effect was most clearly felt on nascent Christianity, in which it led to the formation of the canon, creed, and episcopal organization. The designation Gnosticism, derived from the Greek gnostikos (one who has gnosis, or secret knowledge), is a term of modern scholarship. Evidence for the Gnostic phenomenon, found in the Church Fathers who opposed Gnostic teachings (Irenaeus, c. 185; Hippolytus, c. 230; Epiphanius, c. 375) and in the Gnostic writings themselves, reveals a diversity in theology, ethics, and ritual that defies strict classification. YET GNOSTIC SECTS APPEAR TO HAVE SHARED AN EMPHASIS ON THE REDEMPTIVE POWER OF ESOTERIC KNOWLEDGE, ACQUIRED NOT BY LEARNING OR EMPIRICAL OBSERVATION BUT BY DIVINE REVELATION. --- We know that Christianity became corrupted rapidly after the deaths of the original Twelve, and according to McConkie gnosticism is an evil heresy, but doesn't the LDS faith separate itself from the rest of the Christian world by its insistence that saving truth can only come directly by revelation? And if so, wouldn't that harmonize with the above Britannica definition of gnosticism? Somewhere I have read a Gentile author refer to Mormonism as American gnosticism. I wonder if this is what he had in mind? I wish I could remember the reference. Please forgive me for cross posting this to three different email lists. I wanted to learn where I could get up the most interesting discussion. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.
At 08:52 PM 8/12/03 -0600, R. Kent Francis wrote: Kent Francis writes: If we look at the Bible as history, the distances involved are less than 500 miles by 100 miles and the area was inhabited by Phoenesian, Philistines, Syrians, Egyptians and other peoples in addition to the Israelites... who were at various times in their history politically fractionated. Why have we subscribed to the concept that all the native americans were Nephite/Lamanites? Probably due to the statement in the introduction to the BoM which states that they are the "principal ancestors" . . . -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] MormonThinkers [was Kicked Off the FAIR List]
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:28:14 -0800 "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I heard of 'em. In fact, I'm on the Mormon Thinker's list. But > Mormon > Thinkers is a Johnny Come Lately list. Zion has been around since > November > of 1993. --JWR Give my regards to Andy, John. He booted me from the list. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List
That may be Bill, but ZION was supposed to be discontinued in favor of MormonThinkers sometime ago, or so I understood. Obviously it did not completely happen. Chopped Liver??? Well .. maybe not quite that. George - Original Message - From: "Grampa Bill in Savannah" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 3:56 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List > George Cobabe wrote of FAIR: > > >It is without a doubt the best group and list that I have been lucky enough to associate with. > > > = > Gramp Bill comments: > > Well, hrumph! What are we... chopped liver? Tried a lot of 'em. > Zion's the best! > > Love y'all > Grampa Bill in Savannah > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] MormonThinkers [was Kicked Off the FAIR List]
George Cobabe wrote: ZION was supposed to be discontinued in favor of MormonThinkers sometime ago, or so I understood. Obviously it did not completely happen. ___ This is news to me. Never heard of a list called MormonThinkers. John? Larry Jackson The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.
Kent wonders: So does that mean that only the indians in New York are their descendents, or that the Araucano indians in Southern Chile are also their descendents, or that all Indians of whatever lineage are their descendents, or that early Church leaders were making a gross generalization? Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 08:52 PM 8/12/03 -0600, R. Kent Francis wrote: Kent Francis writes: If we look at the Bible as history, the distances involved are less than 500 miles by 100 miles and the area was inhabited by Phoenesian, Philistines, Syrians, Egyptians and other peoples in addition to the Israelites... who were at various times in their history politically fractionated. Why have we subscribed to the concept that all the native americans were Nephite/Lamanites? Probably due to the statement in the introduction to the BoM which states that they are the "principal ancestors" . . . -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] MormonThinkers [was Kicked Off the FAIR List]
Well perhaps it is news to me as well. I have been confused before. Who knows what lurks in the hearts of men. N ot just the Shadow, but surely John. George - Original Message - From: "Larry Jackson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 8:57 AM Subject: [ZION] MormonThinkers [was Kicked Off the FAIR List] > > George Cobabe wrote: > > ZION was supposed to be discontinued in favor of > MormonThinkers sometime ago, or so I understood. > Obviously it did not completely happen. > > ___ > > This is news to me. Never heard of a list called > MormonThinkers. John? > > Larry Jackson > > > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 07:22:05 -0600 George Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > OK, Paul I will forget it, especially if you will not just throw > irresponsible statements and claims about just any old way. > > George Oh come on George, you're just trying to get me started. I'm not that dumb. I've been around the block a few times. It won't work this time. I'm going to keep quiet this time and let you wonder about why it is FARMS apologists are now saying that the Nephites used wooden swords to counter the lack of physical evidence at the foot of the hill Cumorah and that FARMS has bowed to science who says there were no horses in America so they now say they rode deer and not horses as translated by Joseph, so, I'll be responsible and not just throw statements out on the Zion list to upset people like you; my mouth is sealed. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.
Could mean that this is where all our principals came from. Our principal was Seminole. *jeep! --Chet Ronn! Blankenship wrote: > > > Probably due to the statement in the introduction to the BoM which > > states that they are the "principal ancestors" . . . So Kent wondered: > So does that mean that only the indians in New York are their > descendents, > or that the Araucano indians in Southern Chile are also their > descendents, > or that all Indians of whatever lineage are their descendents, or > that > early Church leaders were making a gross generalization? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Mormon Faith in America
I ran across a book review of a work entitled MORMON FAITH IN AMERICA by Maxine Hanks and Jeanne Kinney Williams. It is a children's book for "grade 6 and up." Is this the same Maxine Hanks that was disciplined by the Church in 1993 as part of the September Six? If so, curious that an apostate would be writing children's books about the Church. Don't you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:28:16 -0600 George Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I think that there is a difference between melting and working gold > and the > making of metal alloys such as steel. I think that is what is > being > objected to when they say they was no metal working. > > George The Book of Mormon tells us that they used steal; both the Nephites and the Jaredites. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure...
He works off of a checklist. Broken heart Contrite Spirit Ordinances completed Not a member of silly email lists Jon Ronn! Blankenship wrote: > Luke 18:13. > > Again, does God work off a checklist, or does He desire "a broken heart and > a contrite spirit"? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure...
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: > Luke 18:13. > > Again, does God work off a checklist, or does He desire "a broken heart and > a contrite spirit"? At 08:21 PM 8/11/03 -0400, Jon Spencer wrote: He works off of a checklist. __x_ Broken heart __x_ Contrite Spirit __x_ Ordinances completed Not a member of silly email lists Oh, drat. -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America
I think you mean steel and if so you are correct. However the problem was with people who do not believe that. George - Original Message - From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America > > On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:28:16 -0600 George Cobabe > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > I think that there is a difference between melting and working gold > > and the > > making of metal alloys such as steel. I think that is what is > > being > > objected to when they say they was no metal working. > > > > George > > The Book of Mormon tells us that they used steal; both the Nephites and > the Jaredites. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:59:17 -0600 George Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > For more on this issue you might want to check out fairlds.com. > This is a > group of LDS apologists that are tracking the issue. Yeah, and this lousy board just excommunicated me for making statements about physiological differences of African lips and that Jesus could not have been black because of the seed of Cain. This world is getting so PC, I can hardly stand to live in it anymore. Also, I find the LDS apologetics about wooden swords at Cumorah instead of steel ones to be the most asinine thing I have ever heard in my entire life of 41 years. I would to God the prophets would go into BYU and clean out the house and install men of faith. Anyway, I'm going to shut up now because I seem to get banned just about every where I go. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
Paul, you should know that the FAIR message boards are not the FAIR members, but rather visitors who post what they want. If that is the best you can do - accuse FAIR of being responsible for everything on the message boards then you need to correct yourself and tell it correctly. Now it you can give me a reference I will check it out, but I have no time to do your homework and cover your statements for you. George - Original Message - From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon > > On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:13:35 -0600 George Cobabe > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Paul: You have such a tendency to throw things around. Could you > > provide a > > reference for anyone who believes about Deer and Wooden swords? > > Hopefully a > > url!!! > > Go to the FAIR message board. I can hardly believe what LDS apologists > are saying these days. If you can't find the threads, ask around. I'm > banned. > Here is an anti-Mormon (James White) URL that I hadn't deleted yet. > http://www.equip.org/free/DM755.htm > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
On Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:07:41 -0700 Rick Mathis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > At 08:14 AM 8/11/2003 -0500, Paul wrote: > > >Anyway, I'm going to shut up now > >because I seem to get banned just about every where I go. > > Thank you very much, Paul. > > Rick Mathis You're welcome. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Mayan Nephites?
My family and I just returned from Salt Lake City where we saw the Church film at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building for the first time. I believe the film was called THE TESTAMENTS. Just one question: What were Mayan pyramids doing in the film? I thought the high civilization of the Maya was nearly a thousand years after the extinction of the Nephites? Am I wrong? If there were no Mayans at the time of the Nephites, isn't it a little dishonest to portray the ancient Nephite as Mayan? Anyway, it kind of bothered me. I liked the last film, the one about Joseph Smith, a lot better. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure...
At 12:58 AM 7/13/03 -0500, Stacy Smith wrote: It says "after all we can do," not "after all we do." That's not to say we don't repent and repent often. I'll give you a scenario. Suppose someone commits sin no. 760 of the day but it is a tiny thing and he hardly notices. It is certainly nothing to go to the bishop about, at least that's what he thinks. He says to himself at first, "Boy, that was a very dumb thing to do." The doorbell rings. He answers the door. Then after he takes care of that the telephone rings. He takes care of that. Soon he decides to balance his checkbook. After a while he figures he'll watch a little television. Finally he may or may not remember to pray, another sin in and of itself. He forgets he hasn't confessed the sin of which he was guilty. Now what? What about many more than one like that? Finally he dies. Oops? After all he could have done? Luke 18:13. Again, does God work off a checklist, or does He desire "a broken heart and a contrite spirit"? -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
Paul Osborne wrote: What do you think JWR? Am I worse than you. Be honest! On average, you have rougher edges than I have. But my extremes are rougher than your extremes. Even now I can't believe I have said the things I've said about the Canadians and the British. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Africa or China?
http://www.sciencenews.org/20021221/fob1.asp Here is an interesting story in SCIENCE NEWS that suggests man may have "evolved" in China as well as Africa as is generally supposed. Has anyone heard more about this? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America
I think that there is a difference between melting and working gold and the making of metal alloys such as steel. I think that is what is being objected to when they say they was no metal working. George - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:20 PM Subject: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America > http://www.geotimes.org/aug03/resources.html > > I found an article on mining and metallurgy in ancient America, mostly in > NW South America. I have heard some object to the Book of Mormon on > grounds that there has been no evidence of a metal working culture in > American archaeology. Apparently I'm missing something. Isn't gold a > metal? And didn't the Spanish conquistadors take mountains of gold back to > the Old World even to the point of causing a great inflation? Undoubtedly > I just don't understand the objection being made. To be honest, I haven't > made a study of it, apologetics not being one of my strong interests. > > Question: Do we yet know where Lehi landed in the Americas, and where the > earliest Lehite colonies were? Is it still generally thought that he > landed on the coast of modern Chile, or was that ever a popular theory? > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "There is no place in this work for those who believe only > in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good > news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mayan Nephites?
There was a recent article in Meridian Magazine online that discussed the intereaction between some of the groups and the BofM people. http://www.meridianmagazine.com/sci_rel/030731fair.html for part one of the two part series. The homepage for Meridian has the second part of the article. Brandt Gardner is the author. Check this out and see if it has anything to do with your question. George - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 9:08 PM Subject: [ZION] Mayan Nephites? > My family and I just returned from Salt Lake City where we saw the Church > film at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building for the first time. I believe > the film was called THE TESTAMENTS. > > Just one question: What were Mayan pyramids doing in the film? I thought > the high civilization of the Maya was nearly a thousand years after the > extinction of the Nephites? Am I wrong? If there were no Mayans at the > time of the Nephites, isn't it a little dishonest to portray the ancient > Nephite as Mayan? Anyway, it kind of bothered me. I liked the last film, > the one about Joseph Smith, a lot better. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "There is no place in this work for those who believe only > in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good > news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
Paul Osborne wrote: --- > I almost cried when I found out that apologists at BYU now > say the Nephites rode deer and not horses. Now we have wooden swords and > deer. Somehow that is not what I think Joseph Smith was seeing in the > Urim & Thummim. I'm sad. --- Paul, don't be sad about finding higher levels of enlightenment. We don't know what Joseph saw in the Urim and Thummim. Only a few descriptive narratives -- and the Book of Mormon. Some of our Arnold Frieburg created notions are deeply ingrained, but not necessarily true. Learning the truth is partly about finding where our ideas are wrong, and setting them aside. Not an easy task, to be sure. But necessary. Remember, faith is a knowledge of things we believe, which are true. We cannot exercise true faith in things that are false. --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
