[ZION] Just finished reading....
The key to reading so much of the GAs/scriptures and less television, is not how much you'll necessarily gain from their teachings, but the level of spirituality that will grow within you. Then, you will be able to have revealed to you personally many of the wondrous mysteries the Lord awaits to those who are ready to receive. People rarely gain revelation from watching tv shows, regardless of how exciting or neat they are. But when we concentrate in the spiritual realm, we attune ourselves to the spiritual things. For me, their words are great, but even greater is the spiritual insight I gain. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: I've even decided to give up most television watching in favor of reading and listening to these leaders long term. I truly believe they have long-term knowledge of future events and will in the end be able to look at all pertinent issues before another government gets established. It's obvious there are differences of opinion even in the church. I'll be interested to see what kind of government gets established and if any of us can have any input. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] algore
What do I think of John Kerrey? I think he is an honest man, which will be a refreshing change for a candidate from the Democratic party He is rather liberal on some issues, moderate on others. He works well with those on both sides of the aisle, and isn't an attack dog like Daschle or Gephardt. I'd say he is one of their better choices right now. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Alma 1:21
It was originally designed for a theocracy, run under Moses and the priests. In such a theocracy, there is no other religion. Remember, Israel was commanded to destroy all the other peoples and religions in Palestine. The Nephites adapted it to their multi-peopled government, meaning backing off on some requirements to ensure religious freedom. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe It had just occurred to me that it seemed that the Mosaic law, if properly followed, never allowed for true freedom. Am I really right on that one? If that is the case, wouldn't one say that that law was a law of force? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] LOTR
Hm. First Tom Matkin claims to dislike LOTR, and now Marc says he isn't a fan. Maybe there is something in the water up there in Canada??? Mark Gregson doesn't seem to be affected much by it, but it may just be a matter of time. If I notice Mark discussing the benefits of socialized medicine, I'll know he's been assimilated! K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: I'm not a Tolkien fan -- nothing negative. I did read The Hobbit years ago but just never got around to any of the trilogy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] My visit to SLC
I'm enjoying my visit to SLC. Tomorrow night (Monday), I'll be seeing the Temple Square lights. If any of you are out there, I'll be the one with a group of people. I'll also be wearing a green London Fog winter coat (not a trench coat), with small orange labels saying London Fog and white stripes. I have a slight beard on my face, and small roundish glasses. Anyone care to take a stab at finding me? K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Curiosity about Alma 1:21
The Nephite nation by this time had separated its religious and political spheres. There were many who did not belong to the Church and so were not bound by the Mosaic Law, which is why Alma only had the power to excommunicate. The death penalty was given only by the chief judge. Death penalty under the Mosaic Law in Israel ceased to work efficiently after just a few hundred years. Israelites in the Book of Judges were already committing adultery and idolatry, and no death penalty was sought. King David should have been stoned, but the Lord allowed him to live. Though the law was there, it often was not followed closely, as the Israelites mingled with other nations. At this point in Alma, the Nephites had begun to mingle with Mulekites, and who knows what other nations in the Americas. The Mosaic Law was not forced upon these people. Rather, they were given freedom to choose how they would worship. Worship of conscience was not against the law, nor punishable by the Nephite system of judges- only actions like that taken by Nehor (murdering Gideon) was used to incite the death penalty. The law given to Noah also demanded the death penalty for murderers, but we don't see the prophets pushing for the death penalty to be strictly enforced. Such a command is a minor one, compared to the rites and ordinances proscribed by the law. Remember, the Mosaic law was not the end-all law. It was a terrestrial law given as a stop gap measure until the people were more prepared to hear the celestial law of Christ. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: Can someone explain to me how there could be total freedom of religion with people observing the Mosaic law? How can there have been a command against blasphemy and a death sentence if conditions like Alma portrays were true? How could there have been a climate of religious freedom? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] The Two Towers (LOTR)
Okay, then let me give you this test and see how well you really remember them... 1) What is Gollum's real name? 2) What is the name of the king's evil advisor? 3) What is an Ent? 4) Who is Gollum's friend that helps him? 5) How does Frodo escape the tower? 6) How many palantiri are there total, and how many are known of by the end of book 3? 7) What army does Aragorn raise to help him win a major battle? That should do it. If you can answer these questions, then I agree that you remember the books remarkably well. My wife says no cheating by peeking in a book for the answers, or asking any other source. Also, if you send the answers to this list, make sure to warn everyone that there is spoiler information involved. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Jon: Look, I read these books 39 years ago. I still remember them very well, thank you. I don't have to read them this year. Stop picking on me! (Let's see: 19-11 = 8) Jon Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Motorcycle
Let's see, a stake president who has shaved his head and rides a motorcycle. Hm I guess it's okay, as long as it is either a Harley or an Indian. Just make sure you update your will to name your successor as stake president. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Tom: Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough review here, what does the list have to say about a stake president owning and using a motorcycle. I seem to remember some counsel when I was called about being a good example. Remember I live in a small town where everyone seems to think they know each other. Surreptitious use of the motorcycle is not an option. Will my being seen on a motorcycle undercut the arguments of well meaning and concerned parents mothers who are trying to keep their sons from maiming or killing themselves? Will the poor mothers crumble or at least chaff under the weight of but President Matkin has a motorcycle. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] The Two Towers (LOTR)
Unless you've read at least two of the LOTR books this year to prepare for it, I don't think you are really excited about the movie coming out. Last year to prepare for the first movie, I read the Hobbit and Fellowship. This year, I've read both Two Towers and Return of the King (I was going to wait until next year, but just couldn't leave Sam hanging there for an entire year. Won't say anything more so as not to give away the ending of this movie). BTW, I can now be classified as a Harry Potter fan. I read all 4 HP books in 8 days, books 3 and 4 in the last three days (and book 4 is 750 pages). I'm really impressed. JK Rowling's first book is a little weak (movie is better, though the book explains a lot), but the rest of the books are much stronger. I can't believe I'm going to have to wait for book 5 to see what comes next, now that Voldemoort is as strong as he is. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Teaching Correct Principles
Even if there are no nonmembers on the list right now (are you sure about that?), that doesn't mean that something couldn't be forwarded outside the list, either on purpose or by accident. It happens, you know. We've seen it happen. Just look at what people in politics/government have said lately, thinking no one was looking around. One Canadian leftist is praying to maintain her government position, because she called our president something off the record, but didn't make sure no one else was listening. Then there's the idiot Senator from the state just to my left on the map who praised Strom Thurmond by stating he should have won the presidency in 1948. Well, Strom only ran on one issue: segregation, so Trent Lott was showing either his stupidity, or his racism (or both) when he made that statement. We never know who's listening, or who is going to take our statements out of context, or spread them around the Internet. BTW, anyone else feel that Trent Lott should step down as Majority Leader? I've disliked him since he first got into that job. There are many decent Senators that would do a much better job, without looking like he just took off his white hood. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe John: Gary, there are no nonmembers on this list. I don't need to worry about converting the Lamanites here regardless of my manner of stating the truth. Obviously I wouldn't say these things in a mixed audience, but I shouldn't have any problem getting agreement from other Latter-day Saints. I guess there is just something about my manner that provokes opposition even when I am speaking the truth. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Teaching Correct Principle
John, You could never offend me. It takes someone like Stephen Beecroft to do that! ;-) Anyway, I think the problem lies in something that the sons of Mosiah teach us. We see Ammon and Aaron in Alma 17 set off to different parts amongst the Lamanites. Ammon finds Lamoni and offers to be a servant, makes friends, and converts thousands. Aaron and the others immediately go into telling the Lamanites what they are doing wrong, offend them, and are cast into prison. All were teaching the same truths, but the manner in which they were doing it made all the difference in their success level. Aaron obviously figured this one out, because when he went to the father of Lamoni, the first thing he did was offer himself up as a servant to the king. Only then was he also successful in bringing thousands into the Church. There is a time for bearing down in strong testimony. But Alma's counsel was to be bold but NOT overbearing. Being overbearing can be as much a fatal flaw in missionary work as being too timid. It is usually when we become overbearing, that we begin to offend people (like Aaron did), even though our intentions are good. The Spirit often will guide us to a softer approach, one that the person we are speaking to will listen to. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: I can see where you are coming from, Elmer. And you are probably right that I need to be more humble. But after a while a guy gets tired of being misunderstood even though he is speaking the truth. Speaking the truth should never prompt an argument and bad feelings. When I mean to point a finger, and make things personal, then I'll let everyone know. Until then I recommend that those who might be offended read a little more carefully and see if I have singled them out in mere paraphrasing the scriptures and the writings of the prophets. Usually they will find that I have not. John W. Redelfs Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] True Christian
Are you referring to the LDS definition of hell, or the protestant version? Last I looked it up, there is a temporary hell in spirit prison, where sins not repented of will be paid for by the individual. DC 132 tells us that some celestial beings may even have to pay for some of their own sins in this hell. So, that does not tell me anything concerning the level of righteousness of a person. Even the murderer/adulterer King David told us he would not stay in hell. The other hell, Outer Darkness, is a permanent place for those who totally reject Christ. Although I believe that many preachers are false prophets (some are just deceived by the world), I do not believe the majority of them will enter Outer Darkness. They don't qualify. I am not avoiding the fact of hell. I'm just not seeing your easy blanket statement as being true. Why? Because there are going to be exceptions. Little children who have never heard of Christ, but die before the age of eight are already his. Yet, they aren't baptized, nor have they really accepted any gospel, since they are too young to understand it or accept it. Both hells will be crowded, since most people sin and won't repent of all their sins (for the first), and since 1/3 the hosts of heaven already have signed up for Outer Darkness. But that still doesn't determine who is a true Christian. It only tells me who ISN'T a true Christian - those who completely rebel and sin. I can't see with God's eyes the events that have shaped, are shaping, or will shape a person's spirit. I therefore am unable to determine who is or isn't a true Christian. And I defnitely cannot make a blanket statement on it, as the commandments change for people as the Spirit teaches us higher things. Two people can be living the minimum requirements for entering the temple. One can be a very spiritual person, doing his/her very best to obey the commandments. The other could be a stake president, who has lots of gospel knowledge and knows he should be moving higher in spirituality, but has settled on his laurels. Are they both 'true Christians?' Both are worthy of the temple, yet I cannot look into their entire lives to determine which one is or isn't. What is my definition of a 'true' Christian? It is a person that is doing their best to follow the light and truth God has placed in his/her life, regardless of whether they currently are a member/Christian, or not. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: In my view, Mark is right. And Gary is still determined to avoid that fact that hell, whatever that means, is going to be a crowded place since few will find the narrow way that leads to life. John W. Redelfs Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Alvin and Chet
You mean some kids have more than one copy of the Chipmunk Christmas song Why??? And wouldn't that warp them to the point where all they would want to do is play video games and listen to techno-rap all day long? Wait a minute! I think I'm seeing a correlation here K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Honestly though, I thought everyone in America had a passing acquaintence with Clyde Crashcup. I mean, 100% of every kid I knew watched the ALVIN SHOW and had at least one album. *jeep! --Chet Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] In SLC 12-18 Dec
Heads up! I'll be in SLC for a week. I arrive late on 12 Dec and leave early on 18 Dec. If anyone wants to meet with me, leave me an email. I don't know how much email access I'll have, but I'll have some. Also, you will be able to reach me at my sister's house in West Valley (dude!) 969-7627. Sorry, Marc, no collect calls accepted Maybe we can do lunch or a temple trip. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] heck ain't cussin
Most people don't understand well the doctrines of their church. That includes LDS members, though the active ones probably understand our basic tenets better than those of other churches. Most Trinitarians do not understand the Trinity well (most believe in modalism, a few even believe in the Godhead of separate beings). Most people float around looking for a church that fits their social and cultural strata, not their spiritual understanding. Of course that doesn't apply to us, as once you buy your house, you are pretty much stuck with one ward. For many who enjoy family here, but are looking forward to playing harps and singing in choirs in the next life, I think they will be totally happy in the Terrestrial Kingdom. It will be far greater than anything they can imagine a heaven being. Will they miss their families? Perhaps. Or maybe they'll be happy seeing others in the same kingdom as friends, brothers and sisters. If progression between kingdoms ends up being a possibility, perhaps it becomes an incentive for those who desire to grow to eventually become celestialized. I dunno. I think that it may be possible, just that it would take them worlds without end (DC 131) to achieve it, meanwhile those already in the kingdom would have advanced in kingdoms and dominions and glory far beyond what any Terrestrial person could ever imagine. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe chet: What's especially ironic is that - despite what their churches' doctrines are - almost every member of those churches believe that their marriages (current or otherwise) are meant to last forever. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] True Christians
You are thinking of the short mortal term we live in. All will bow the knee and profess Christ as Lord. The majority of them will eventually accept Christ, and though they may not merit the Celestial Kingdom, they still will accept the gospel someday. It is just that they will not have the ability to live all of the gospel, and so will not be celestial material. Even we will have to go through a perfecting and learning period before receiving godhood (DC 130). If one must be exalted before being a true Christian, then no one (not even Christ) was a true Christian as a mortal. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: Even if they are kind, loving and generous Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus? All these who are honorable will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom. By what stretch are they considered Christian? --JWR Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] comparing rebellions
Those LDS authors all sound alike to me. It probably was Evans I was thinking of. although, some of Card's stuff should be banned on the same pretexts being used, also. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Are you referring to the new novel by Richard Paul Evans, or did Scott get one banned, also? Larry Jackson Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] temp conversion
Aaaahhh, but the old saying still holds true about finding a nice heavyset mate: Warmth in the winter and shade in the summer!!! ;-) Couldn't resist! K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe You wrote: I too sweat profusely. I am overweight and suffer from the same sort of prejudice. I have had to repeatedly explain to people that the nerves that sense temperature are on the OUTSIDE of the fat, not the inside, so whether my skin indicates the temperature is high or not is not dependant on my weight. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Celestial Show
Are you sure this meteor wasn't just John Redelfs trying to get across Canada prior to being caught with an expired driving insurance and pass? K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Lewis on Liberty
Gee, I thought Jerry Lewis was only big in France, where liberty is not that big a thing K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe You are hereby invited to join Lewis on Liberty, a soon to be started e-zine that will document the history of Liberty, offer commentary on issues of the day and provide resources on Liberty. For more information use this link: Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Canada: Bush is an idiot
I dunno, Marc. You claim that Canuckles have the market cornered on hysterics and going overboard and such, but Stephen Beecroft sure is right up there with the best I've seen come from the Great White North. Perhaps you could grant him honorary Canuckle status and maybe give him a job in socialized medicine. Maybe after a few months of seeing how it really should work, you'll have converted him to northern liberalism. Heck, he may even learn to speak French! K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] comparing rebellions
Let's see, Paul studies ancient Egyptian stuff, while Jon owns an LDS bookstore Yep, I'd say Paul is more rebellious than Jon. Now, if Jon sells copies of Orson Scott Card's new book (recently banned from Deseret Book's shelves), THEN we'll consider him in the running. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: I'll bet I'm more rebellious than you Jon! ;-) Paul O Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Celestial show
One of the neatest meteors I've ever seen was in 1985 in Korea. I was guarding my post, watching the sky to ensure no one was parachuting in from the north, I saw a meteor streak across the sky, break into two, then watched the twin meteors in parallel zip across the sky for another several moments. Of course, the neatest thing in the sky is the Southern Cross. And when you see the Southern Cross for the first time, you finally know just why you came this way I'm convinced there are more stars in the southern hemisphere, and the moon is bigger and brighter there, too. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] True Christians
I recall Joseph Smith having a vision (could it be in DC 137?), where he sees his non-baptized brother Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom. Alvin is obviously considered a 'true Christian' even though he has not yet been baptized. I would imagine that this largesse by Christ would be given to others, such as Marc's grandmother, if they are living great lives as well. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Temperature conversion chart
Try daily baths in ice. After a while, it won't seem so bad out of doors (or out of the tub). K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe How do I decrease my sensitivity to cold? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] True Christians
I guess the meaning of a true Christian depends on one's definition. Does true Christian mean one who understands and accepts and acts righteously on all the things Christ teaches to the smallest minutiae? If so, then NONE of us are true Christians, even in the LDS Church, except Jesus himself. If it means those who have achieved full sanctification in Christ, then few are true Christians, even in the LDS Church. If it means those who will eventually receive exaltation, then it means only some in the LDS Church are true Christians. If it means those who are considered at least honorable by God (DC 76), then all heading toward the Terrestrial and Celestial are true Christians. These are, in fact described as 'children of Christ' in a few areas of the scriptures. If it means any who will receive a level of salvation thanks to Christ's atonement, then most all are true Christians (even many Buddhists and Hindus, etc). So, before any of us less than perfect people try to proclaim such a strong statement as some have given, how about defining just which one of these definitions you are using. Otherwise, you are painting with a very broad brush against those who Christ himself may consider his children. I just read chapter 21 in the Harold B Lee manual again. Something interesting he mentions about the pure in heart is that they look for the good in those around them. I hope I can someday obtain to that level by seeking to find the good and beauty in the world and mankind, and not be so judgmental (and that includes with people like Bill Clinton and Adolph Hitler, where possible). I really need to separate acts from individuals. Do I think there are some true Christians outside the LDS Church? Yes, I do. I think they are all on a spiritual journey, just as I am. Some just haven't had the blessing of hearing the gospel yet, but still merit Christ's blessings for accepting what they have accepted. Otherwise, I must make being a 'true Christian' so perfect and out of reach that there isn't any hope for any of us. Christ is all about hope and gathering of his people. He calls all people to him, to the extent that he offers salvation to all, and gives each as much salvation as they will accept. While some wish for a vengeful god to destroy their enemies, I am thankful for a merciful God who will gently take me up in his arms. For me to have such mercy, I too must be merciful, which I admit isn't an easy thing for me. But I'm learning... Maybe someday I can become a true Christian in John's definition. Until then, I'm glad that Christ accepts me with all the shades of gray and excess baggage I carry with me. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Your ignorance makes you look silly
Perhaps it would be easier if we handed out a 'silly and ignorant' (or if in Utah, ignernt) sign. When someone does something that is either silly or ignernt (or both), we just simply hand them a sign to wear. That way their ignorance and silliness will be readily apparent for those of us who are ignorant impaired BTW, since Stephen has already been pointed out as being in this group, I guess he can pick up his sign next time he passes by the zion list K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Jim: I've been thinking about this all day, and still cannot imagine how ignorance is reflected in one's appearance. To appear silly would seem not to be a very exacting quality. I would propose that we require some comparative or objective standard to judge the relative measure of silly appearance. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Paul's Dad
I find that the thing that brings me the greatest peace during this time of troubles and uncertainty is being in the temple. I can leave all the terrorists, unemployment, recession, Democrats, and all the other problems outside. I feel the Spirit, and am re-energized so that I am stronger to handle the telestial world we live in. Paul, if you have a headache, do you resist taking aspirin/tylenol/motrin because you can't bear the headache going down some? So it is with the temple, except that it works like morphine (with fewer side effects). It brings me peace in these troubles times. Now is the time to go, when you are struggling the most. Will you do us the favor and set a date to go again? Hopefully in December, but if not, definitely in January. Go several times. Show the terrorists you are going to beat them by performing eternal saving ordinances for the deceased. They might kill a few people's bodies, but you will be saving several people's souls. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul - Don't you think that it is about time to return to the House of the Lord? I do believe that your outlook on life and the blessings you receive will improve/increase. I agree. I'll get back to it sooner or later. Probably a little later than sooner. In the mean time... Paul O Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Can Anyone Become a Fully Qualified Member....
Stacy, If it concerns you, discuss it with his bishop. Let him know what you know about the situation, then let him handle it. If he sees any major problem, he will work it. He is the judge in Israel, not any of us (including Paul, even though I heard he has a gavel he likes rapping the table with) has the right to judge him for past sins. We only have the responsibility to ensure the bishop is aware of the problem. I see this in the same vein as a person who is called to a calling. When asked to sustain the person, if I know there is some serious/major reason to not sustain the person, it is my duty to bring it up. Once I discuss it with the authority, it is in their hands. I don't worry about it anymore. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: If I tried to make this public what could happen to me? Is this considered gossip? and heresay? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Canada watch: background behind Francie Ducros' resignation
Marc, You know, we USAmericans wouldn't worry so much about her as you suggest we shouldn't, if you wouldn't keep worrying so much about her onthe list! ;-) I'd almost forgotten about her today, until you brought her up again... At least she has free medical care if she gets sacked... K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Are Mormons Christians?
I've just put together a concise and to the point web page or two answering the question: Are Mormons Christians? If any of you would like to proof read it, review it and let me know what you think of it, it is at: http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/christians.html K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member In Good Standing After Havi
This doesn't violate the charter. All people have the opportunity to repent and change their lives. There are a few sins that are not repented of in this life, primarily murder. Sexual sin is very serious. Alma tells us that it is third in severity, after murder and denying the Holy Ghost. The reality is, not all bishops and stake presidents are well versed in handling such things. Some are extremely stern in the repentance process, while others are so afraid to lose the person, will go to any lengths not to excommunicate. Be aware of that as you consider dating people. You will have to determine from the relationship just how repentant the person really has been. If it is sexual sin, you can generally tell how changed they are by how they act on dates. If they want to neck and kiss a lot, you can have the idea that the person has not restrained himself enough. Necking outside of marriage is, after all, a sin, according to President Kimball. A person who has shown true remorse for sin, will not play on the edge of the cliff, but will stay far from it. The true exsmoker doesn't hold a cigarette in his fingers, unlit or lit. And someone who has repented of sexual sins will not risk being in the wrong places doing the wrong things. Criminals need the chance to repent and change also. You have the right to choose not to date this guy. However, don't forget to be a friend. This will help him to continue on his progress to exaltation. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: Hi. I hope this issue does not violate the charter. I have an interesting problem. I have decided quickly not to date an individual with a criminal sexual history in the past. However, he is a member in good standing. He has a temple recommend. What is the general policy regarding people who have committed crimes in the past? Is it possible to date those individuals, to assume that they have repented and are in good standing with the church? Do we assume the atonement has covered the sin? Furthermore, what are we to do with the weakness that has been shown? Can we trust such an individual? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] No Redelfs Citings
I feared this would happen if John went to Canada. Marc and his family have eaten John and his daughter Cannibals!!! Had they only gone to Alaska via Seattle, the only harm that would have befallen them would have been a tour of the outside of Microsoft's campus, and..., uh, oh, I guess that would be worse. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: This evening my wife served -- totally coincidentally -- BLT sandwiches for dinner. We had, of course, made her guess why we called JWR BLT and it was all John could do not to smile at her initial confusion. I wonder if there was something at work subliminally when she decided on this evening's menu. Mind you, we all like BLTs and have them often. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] November 2002 ministry update
Sorry, Stacy, but this one comes a little too close to the edge of the charter. If anyone wants to answer her, please do it private email. I will say this, while avoiding the main topic you placed below. I believe as Thomas Jefferson did that our nation was established with a small federal government and strong state governments, so that peoples could gather with others of their type. If all left handed people want to move to California, and all right handed peoples go to Texas, fine with me. The feds need to stay out of legislation, so people can choose for themselves. However, Jefferson saw no reason why a state couldn't establish its own religion or many other things the people would choose to do, because for those who disagreed, they could always move to another state. Hence, if the fundamentalists want to take over a southern state and enact strict moral laws, more power to them. If they try and do it on the federal level, then I have a problem. But this holds true with liberal groups, as well. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy, What do you all think of this? Should Protestant Fundamentalists be the ones to tell homosexuals how to live their lives? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Canada: Bush is a Moron
Alright, Jim, Now We're going to have to take away your reporter's credentials. Just see the nice men in the dark suits at your front door. They'll handle everything And when they're done with you, we'll just see if Bush is still a moron. ;-) K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Jim C: Granted, Bush probably _is_ a moron. But it's astronomically bad form for a politician in a foreign government to say so in public. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] My current plans
Now that's a mighty fine reception I'm receiving. When I considered moving to SLC, the people there kind of yawned... At first, we'll be living in Mooresville (southwest), but we really like Plainfield, and so will probably try looking there first. I'm not too interested in the north part of the state, a little too cold for me around the lakes. Unless, of course, you can find me a very nice paying job where I can afford to wrap myself up in a warm Mercedes. ;-) We do like Zionsville, and will consider it also... We'll be moving up around 2 January into a room we're renting. Once settled, we'll look for an actual house. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Val: Yee Ha! Gary's movin' to my neck of the woods!! OK, so he'll be a couple hours south, but what the hey. I don't know where you plan on relocating to, but north of Indy is Noblesville and Zionsville--both very nice areas. Lebanon is farther north west and is good for the small town feel close to Indy (abt 25 miles). The mission home is north east of Indy. When we do missionary transfers, we take them to the chapel with the address 777 Sunblest--isn't that a great address for a chapel?? If I didn't love where I live so much, I'd actually live down in Indy. It is a fun city--clean fun--Circle Centre Mall, Union Station etc. Anyway, let me know when/where you'll be in January. I go to Indy several times a year so we should be able to hook up and meet. Should be going again in February for a legislative thingy. Of course, I live in the northern part of the state and I could look for something here for you if you are interested. Let me know. We have several universities/colleges in the immediate South Bend/Mishawaka area--Notre Dame, St. Mary's College, Holy Cross, Indiana University South Bend, Purdue University South Bend, Bethel College etc. who are all big employers, plus we have the Hummer plant in Mishawaka churning out the new H2's. Another big employer. It is exciting for me, all these years (even from way back) that I have respected you and your words, and I'll finally get to meet you face to face. your sis in Mishawaka, IN (who feels s isolated away from Utah ;-)) val Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] My current plans
My current plans are to move to Indianapolis. There just seems to be a better job market there than in SLC, and Ramona's family is there. We'll move there in early January. So if anyone lives in that area, you can help me find work! In the meantime, I'll be in SLC from 12-18 Dec, so if any of you want to get together for an evening, let me know. I'll spend a majority of the time w/family, but would like to see a few of you while there, if possible. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] No Redelfs Citing?
Are you saying I'm not a list moderator? Or just that I'm temporarily out of moderation? Why, them's fighting words where I come from. That's it! Salamis at 10 paces! The only difference between JWR and me, is I'm not benevolent K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Larry: First, we wouldn't expect our fine upstanding BLT to be cited by anyone as he cruises northward on his whirlwind international tour. A citation would certainly be an indication of a lack of moderation in all things, and not just the temporary lack of a Moderator in this Zion List thing. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Coffee, Tea or Eternity?
Hey, no fair guessing how I do this! In reality, I have no true thoughts of my own. I just reach out over the ether and read others' thoughts on the topic. All I do well is reconfigure the thought into something coherent. So, we can thank Val for that wonderful treatise on God not commanding in all things. I just made it coherent. ;-) K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Val: Then someone, Gary this time, writes along and puts the words there that sum up my feelings. Thanks ;-) your sis in Mishawaka, IN val Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Does America need to be destroyed
The Taliban/Al Qaeda mark themselves in a different manner, because their customs are different. They show their beliefs through covering their women and keeping them locked up. That is a mark one can see, just by observing their lifestyles. They also wear the clothing (turban, etc) of the larger Islamic custom. As you'll note from the Amlicites, they sought to look like the peoples they were joining. The Taliban and Al Qaeda look much alike in their societies, as do most other radical Islam. Then again, look at how people in our society dress, depending on their belief systems. Religious people tend to dress conservatively, while many in our society dress up in the latest haute couture or hip-hop styles. Many today are marking themselves with tattoos and piercing. Each of these becomes a mark as real as anything the Lamanites had. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: I ran across that passage in Alma recently and marveled. I thought to myself, Why should this be, as the Taliban aren't known to have marked themselves, right? At any rate, I was somewhat awed and wondered about the saying. I think I am storing up things to ponder in my heart. Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] No Redelfs citing?
Aaaa. So it starts (he said as he wiped his face off with a piece of whole wheat bread). Since it is my list (and John isn't around to regulate the living room), I not only get to start it, but I'll try and finish it, also. Gary pushes a button, and suddenly a cream pie drops from the ceiling onto Till's head. I hope you like lemon K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe At 12:12 11/22/2002 -0600, Gary wrote: Are you saying I'm not a list moderator? Or just that I'm temporarily out of moderation? Why, them's fighting words where I come from. That's it! Salamis at 10 paces! Hah, right between the eyes with an overripe cherry tomato! Till (Gary started it) Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] End Times and the Rapture
. This movie faithfully represents dramatically a central tenet of American fundamentalism: Christianity is socially irrelevant. In every field, Christians are today understood by fundamentalists as offering nothing of real importance culturally. The world can get along just fine without Christians. In education, science, technology, the professions, and entertainment – above all, entertainment – Christians are assumed by fundamentalists to be irrelevant or at least marginal, and necessarily so. This is indicated by their view of the seven-year interval between the Rapture and Christ's Second Coming to set up His bureaucratic earthly kingdom. The absence of Christians will not be noticed after the Rapture because they are barely noticed today. The only evidence in the movie that the absence of Christians will make a visible difference is in the number of auto accidents. Cars went out of control when their drivers were issued the Great Summons from the sky. Yet even here, the screenwriter does not have anyone say this. It is merely implied by a street full of banged-up cars. There are no airplane crashes on-screen. Why not? Is it because the screenwriter assumed that Christians are not well-educated enough to be pilots? Or is this movie a subtle ad for El Al Airlines? Yes, I am being sarcastic, but for a reason. The doctrine of the premillennial, pre-tribulation Rapture has gutted fundamentalism culturally for well over a century. What Christian wants to pay the personal sacrificial price that gaining influence requires, when he also expects the church to be removed from the world in the very near future? After all, the antichrist will inherit everything. Covenant-breakers will become the heirs of the capital of covenant-keepers. Why sacrifice today to build up an inheritance for God's enemies? The Bible teaches that a good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just (Proverbs 13:22). The Rapture doctrine teaches that the wealth of the just is laid up for the sinner. So, why spend a lifetime of above-average effort and risk-taking in order to lay up an inheritance that will be confiscated by the sinners left behind? A radical present-orientation afflicts Protestant fundamentalists. In 1970, Edward Banfield identified the primary origin of lower-class culture as its present-orientation. (See the original edition of his book, The Unheavenly City.) It is not a person's income but rather his time-perspective that best identifies his class position. Fundamentalists, by this definition, are lower class. A person who has no faith in the long-term earthly future of his legacy is unlike to save, work long hours to build a business, advance his education, or do anything else that involves long-term sacrifice, other than foreign missions. Ludwig von Mises argued that people with high time-preference (low future-orientation) pay high interest rates to borrow money, and will not save unless they are offered high interest rates by borrowers. Cultures that are high time-preference societies experience low capital formation and therefore low economic growth, he said. They are unwilling to pay for it. They get what they pay for. The result, artistically, is Left Behind. Conclusion I end this essay with a Bible verse. It should be applied in more senses than one. For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? (I Corinthians 14:8) Culturally, intellectually, and politically, American fundamentalists have been left behind. They have done their best to leave behind nothing of cultural value. They are committed theologically to cultural irrelevance, as I have explained in Chapter 5 of my book, Rapture Fever. Culturally, they have sounded an uncertain trumpet. They need a lot more Louis Armstrong, figuratively speaking. January 10, 2001 Gary North is the author of an eleven-volume series, An Economic Commentary on the Bible. The latest volume is Cooperation and Dominion: An Economic Commentary on Romans. The series can be downloaded free of charge at www.freebooks.com. © 2001 LewRockwell.com /article K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Coffee, tea or eternity?
The Lord tells us he doesn't/shouldn't have to command in all things. The WoW is written for the weakest of saints. It is the minimum standard for us to live by. As members mature, they tend to seek higher levels of spirituality, and will often, through the Spirit, create their own personal commandments. Why do so many members not drink caffeine drinks? Because the Spirit has guided them to that decision. It becomes personally binding on them, but not on others who are not prepared. The gospel is like this in many things. The commandments give us minimum compliance, and then the Spirit teaches us the higher things. This way, we don't need to be slothful servants: commanded in all things. Do I need the bishop to instruct me in every service project I am involved in? Of course not. I should actively seek opportunities to do good works, whether in the church or out. Do I pay just a tithe? Or do I consecrate more of my funds by paying a very generous fast offering? No one commands me just what amount I should pay for fast and other offerings. I follow what the Spirit guides me to do. So it is with the WoW. We grow in it as we grow in the Spirit. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy, If the recommendations were changed to not include caffeine, why not, since we know the following about it? I read or heard on the radio that caffeine takes calcium from the bones. If this is true, it seems likely that it should be included. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Something else to Ponder
Maybe the whiskey just didn't sit well on a 5 year old's gut? I know that later in life he did drink, even in the Nauvoo period. Benjamin F. Johnson tells of Joseph going to his house and having a glass of wine or tea, while discussing the gospel. Of course, the WoW wasn't a commandment as yet. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sandra: You know something I think of alot and wonder if any of y`all do is that Joseph Smith would not even drink the whiskey they tried to give him to dull the pain when they worked on his leg, do we rely on medicine instead of priesthood blessings and our Heavenly Father too much? Just wondered what your feelings are on this? Sandra Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] In the World
to God, nor the safest, but we find it to be a road, and it may be the appointed road for us. Of course, it will be so only so long as we keep the impulse pure and disinterested. That is the great difficulty. As the author of the Theologia Germanica says, we may come to love knowledge-our knowing-more than the thing known: to delight not in the exercise of our talents but in the fact that they are ours, or even in the reputation they bring us. Every success in a scholar's life increases this danger. If it becomes irresistible, he must give up his scholarly work. The time for plucking out the right eye has arrived. (Pp. 27-28.) Notwithstanding that danger, Lewis clearly saw a discipleship role for those with such intellectual gifts, a role he vigorously fulfilled for his entire adult life: -To be ignorant and simple now-not to be able to meet the enemies on their own ground-would be to throw down our weapons, and to betray our uneducated brethren who have, under God, no defense but us against the intellectual attacks of the heathen. Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy needs to be answered. (P. 28.) This essay is Lewis at his best-insightful, articulate, honest, submissive. It reminds us that there are pearls of great price in oyster beds other than our own. (On Becoming a Disciple Scholar, Henry B. Eyring, 77-78). K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Does America need to be destroyed
Revelation mentions a world government, or rather a group of nations that act as one. It is affectionately referred to as the Beast. Those who will not worship the Beast and have its number engraved on their hand/head, will not be able to buy/sell (economic pressure). this would fit in well with the ten toes that Daniel sees as the last world kingdom to appear prior to the coming of Christ. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe But when I look at the book of Daniel, it seems to me I remember that a world empire wasn't to be established again until Jesus comes. Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Leonid alert
Unfortunately, we have overcast skies, so we didn't see it in Alabama. I would figure our local astronomer was probably trying to squint through the clouds passing over Montevallo. Eh, Ronn? K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] In the World
You know, I really like a lot of what Nibley says. However, he more often points out the questions, without fleshing out the answers. He tells us he has chosen consecration. Yet, he doesn't mention how he implements it. Was he living consecration when he held off being married until he was in his forties? Does moving out of the neighborhood mean moving to Provo? Does he just turn over his retirement checks to his bishop in fast offerings? I would personally prefer to live in Zion, not the world. However, until the rest of you get your act together and join me there, I'm forced to dwell somewhere. ;-) As it is, I think that Nibley is reading the phrase differently than our LDS leaders do, or at least is taking it from a different angle. He wants Zion built, and for all of us to move out of Babylon into Zion. Until that happens, our leaders realize we are going to dwell in small groups among the Gentiles of the world. Our leaders see this as a good thing, in that it allows us to promote the gospel, spreading it forth. There was a time when Joseph and Brigham called the saints to gather out from the world. That will occur again, I believe. But for now, our command is to dwell amongst others, in the hopes we can lift them up, convert some, and learn to live righteously in a wicked world. However, I do believe with Nibley, that many saints have forsaken their vows of consecration for a worldly comfort. How else can you explain the cheap labor rates and high house costs in Utah? Both suggest greed. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Nibley:The Lord has repeatedly commanded and forced his people to flee out of the world into the wilderness, quite literally; there is only one way to avoid becoming involved in the neighborhood brawls, and that is to move out of the neighborhood. There is nothing in the Constitution that forbids me doing certain things I have covenanted and promised to do; if the neighbors don't like it, they have no legal grounds against me, but there are ways of getting me to move; the tribulation. . . shall descend upon you, said the Lord, but do things my way and my providence will see you through (DC 78:14). This inescapable conflict is part of our human heritage, as we learn from dramatic passages of scripture. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] In the World
But it is possible. We may be sinners now, but the Lord has shown us that we can become perfected through Him. There are perfect men living on the earth right now. At one point, they were sinners and required the atonement of Christ to atone for those sins. Since then, they have achieved a level of righteousness wherein they, of themselves, stand approved before God. They do live in the world without partaking of the sins of the world. I believe President Benson was one of them, which is why he knew what he was speaking of. For those of us not quite to that point, we must move line upon line, precept by precept to that level of obedience. As we repent, Christ perfects us to new and higher levels of perfection, until we also can be among those who do not partake of the sins of the world. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe It is possible to live in the world and not partake of the sins of the world. Ezra Taft Benson--Apr 1991 First Presidency Message Keys to Successful Member-Missionary Work No. It is not possible for any of us. We are all sinners. Paul O Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Coffee, Tea or Eternity
I think the Lord gave it, not necessarily to help us with our health, though it definitely does, but because of what the first few verses of DC 89 tell us concerning the secret works of evil men in our day. It was to prevent our people from getting used and abused by the enemies of the Church. Secondly, it originally was not given as a commandment, but as guidance. Only in the 1850s, did Brigham Young make it a binding commandment. Still, though the modern prophets do not specifically mention caffeine, they have unofficially added to the WoW any dangerous drugs, and even abused prescribed medications. While we have the binding part specifically laid out for us in the commandment, we can find new areas and advice given us that is not officially binding. It is up to us to get to the point where we can use wisdom in both areas. For example, we concentrate so much on the thou shalt nots in the WoW, we often ignore the things we are encouraged to do: eat grains, fruits and vegetables. Use meat sparingly, particularly in times of hunger and winter, etc. I know of many saints that are at least a little overweight due to over eating (I'm about 20 pounds overweight), and in many ways we need to consider changing our ways, perhaps even repenting. So, just because it hasn't been made a commandment, doesn't mean we need to have a specific commandment. We aren't to be commanded in all things. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: He could have also told the early Saints to boil their drinking water they got from the Mississippi, which would have prevented a cholera epidemic Nauvoo suffered through at one point, iirc. But he didn't. I'm with JWR on this -- it's only superficially about health. Put another way, health becomes a kind of type for spirituality. It's a law of obedience and helps set us apart as a spiritual community, as Zion. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Pamela Lee Anderson, a different sort of poster girl now
It depends. Were you referring to the PLA from Home Improvement era, Baywatch timeframe, or the Tommy Lee freaknik period? K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe I'm quite sure that the mere mention of Pamela Lee Anderson violates several elements of the charter. Which means I'll probably get booted now. Stephen Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Social Mormons
I had no idea that amino acids were left-handed. Then again, I had no idea they even had hands! Then again, how do we really know they are left-handed? Perhaps they have their backs to us, and thus making them right-handed after all? You know, it's kind of like building a house. When you are working on one side of the house, and the nails are pointing the wrong way, you don't throw them away. They are for the other side of the house Then again, I've cut this board three times, and it is still too short! K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Ronn: Short answer: Most life on Earth uses left-handed amino acids Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Hogwarts and all
Richard Harris is a wonderful actor. I remember him in A Man Called Horse, written by an acquaintance of mine who lived in Missoula MT, and lectured to my high school literature class on her books. He was a great Dumbledore, but I think he would be easier to replace than the guy who plays Hagrid. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Gary: Question: my wife heard a rumor that the actor who played the big gentle giant guy that Harry hooks onto (the one who wanted a dragon in the first movie) has recently died in an accident. Anyone know if this is true? I hope not, as his character truly helps round out the movies. Stephen: Not as far as I know. Richard Harris, the actor who played Dumbledore, died a few weeks ago. (By the way -- and I don't think this qualifies as any sort of spoiler -- they should have made Hagrid about twice as big. Ah, well.) Stephen Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Does America need to be destroyed in its current form?
I believe the US government will fall eventually from bloat and corruption. It may be that an outside attack will help it fall, but only if the inside is rotten. I don't have a problem with a state having an active government. Those who don't like it can always move. But a federal government should only step in when absolutely necessary (like during war or a depression), and then step back afterward. I think there are many good people still in government. However, the rotten ones and radical ones have taken over the lecterns and pulpits, so there is no true discourse today. I believe this to be true on both sides of the aisle. I'm a strong believer in what George Washington warned us about in his farewell speech: to beware political parties, and to only vote for individuals, not political platforms. Because we now vote for parties, people vote without thinking. They allow the party to move the populace, rather than the people moving the agenda. One can be led like a dumb ox, or one can lead the dumb ox. But the 10% rule comes in here. One must be 10% smarter than the ox, in order to move it. Political parties dumb down. They move from issues and ideas to just defending the turf against the other guy. We've seen this from both major parties here in the US. It is hoped that people are righteous enough to be able to maintain our government and freedoms without a major wake up. However, if our government were to topple, I guarantee you that it wouldn't automatically be replaced by another one based on our Constitution. Many groups will jump in, telling how antiquated our Constitution is, and that it should be replaced with a modern government (pick your poison: fascist, communist, socialist, etc) that seems to be democratic, but is in reality a totalitarian regime. We see this today in Iraq, where all the people just happened to vote for Saddam Hussein, who just happened to be running unopposed, and where people can't actually cast a secret ballot, so will have great incentive to vote for him. Democracy/Republican government becomes a formality, part of the ritual. It is like the whited sepulchres that Jesus warned the Pharisees of becoming. They were pretty on the outside, but the inside was full of dried up bones. How easy will it be for the elders of Israel to step in and save the Constitution when it hangs by a thread? Depends on how righteous the Elders of Israel are, and how soon they step in to save the Constitution. It may very well be that the Church members must go through severe trials and purgings prior to being ready to establish a righteous government again. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: What is your current belief concerning the United States? Does it need to be destroyed in its present form--White House, Congressional buildings, Pentagon, etc., as Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden think or should it remain with its current governmental structural architecture? I know that the Constitutional government should remain, but there could be a radical change in administration if all our forms of government become much smaller due to the House and Senate leadership being destroyed by these characters. Will the future Congress be holding sessions in the parking lot? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Does America Need To Be Destroyed As It Is In Its Current Form?
Well, I'm guessing that Canada will eventually evolve into one. ;-) Europe and Asia seem to be going into a globalization realm, so I think their nation states will eventually just be states/provinces in a giant world-nation. This I fear, though. It is too easy for a Hitler to step into power, and with non armies to oppose, would wield power throughout the world. Benevolently when possible, ruthlessly when necessary. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: To complicate the question, one might also ask what is the future of nation-states in general? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Bomb Canada?
Jonah Goldberg explains his column last week on bombing Canada. Although I don't think they deserve to be bombed, I do agree with some of the points he makes in this week's column. http://www.townhall.com/columnists/jonahgoldberg/jg20021115.shtml K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Evolution's missing link
Here is the evolution of Michael Jackson's face http://anomalies-unlimited.com/Jackson.html K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Privatizing the feds
Neal Boortz (Libertarian talk radio host) wrote today: On Monday the Federal Register will publish a plan by President Bush to allow private companies to compete with federal workers for contracts to provide government services. This is easily one of the boldest policy moves in my memory. This is bigger than his tax cuts, bigger than his Department of Homeland Security. The goal here is to put 850,000 federal jobs up for bids to the private sector. According to the Bush administration, the taxpayers of this country should save about 30% on each successfully bid contract. === This is good. I'd like to see many of the processes privatized. If we can save even 20 percent, imagine the cost savings in taxes for us K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] China
China early on gave stuff to India, but hasn't for about 20 years. Instead, they now tend to be with Pakistan on issues, and have given much technology to Pakistan. China views it as part of their regional balance of power. They keep Pakistan and India on each other, so neither will cause problems with China. However, if ever there were a war between Pakistan and India, China would quickly jump in on Pakistan's side. The USA would have to defend the democracy in India. This gives both China and us an incentive to keep the two kids in that area from going to war, as it would probably pull us both in. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: This seems to contradict the information that Gary is providing. He says that China doesn't share technology with India because they don't like India, but that it has provided technology to Pakistan. I have read that China provided complete delivery systems to Pakistan, in violation of nonproliferation treaties that China was a signatory to, even as the USA was extending PNTR (Permanent Normal Trade Relations) to them. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Truman the villain
No, the burden of proof isn't on anyone. The burden was on Truman and his DoD Chiefs of Staff. They had to look at it from their day. As far as they could see, Stalin had begun implementing 5 year plans, had built the bomb, had MIGs and tanks they were giving to the North Koreans, and was intent on Lenin's world wide revolution. Truman and his chiefs saw this as just one more step toward a communist/socialist global encroachment. The intelligence we had in that day suggested the Russians were equal to us in military capability and nuclear armament (yes, even that soon after WWII). Remember, only a few years more and Russia would succeed in sending the first satellites (read: ICBM and spying) into space. Yes, their people were starving, but the military machine looked very strong from the USA's viewpoint. China and Russia were close allies at that time, and had agreements to defend one another. Only in the 1970s would they break, giving the USA the opportunity to make treaties with China and change the balance of power somewhat. At this time, Mao hadn't killed/slaughtered millions of his own (at least not to our knowledge). Mao had barely taken China in 1949, and his millions of potential soldiers were on par with our military in 1950, when our technology was not very advanced. In reality, we could have quickly finished the Korean war when the North Koreans first invaded. We had troops waiting for them NK army in one of the few valleys they could go through to Seoul. When they approached, our artillery fired, only to have the old WWI shells bounce harmlessly off the NK vehicles. The NK successfully pushed us back to the Chosun Reservoir (with Chinese help), before we were able to bring in more capable and modern equipment. As for us entering WWII earlier, we should have. Hitler invaded other nations and was doing atrocities outside his own nation. Mao did his slaughtering within his own country. Yes, it is a tragedy, but a nation must handle its own problems. However, when one nation invades another and then slaughters their people, it is up to the league of nations to step in and stop the atrocities. As for defending a Democrat-- I grew up in a family of Democrats. However, my family turned Republican with Reagan. My parents tended to vote Democrat, but primarily for the person with character. They hated LBJ, voted for Nixon, only to be disgusted with him, and passing around petitions to impeach Ford for pardoning Nixon. My Mom was proud she voted for Hubert H Humphrey. Back then, there were some good Democrats (not all, of course) who truly cared for the nation and its people. Today, I think the party has lost its way, seeking more to stay in power than to help the people. I admire Truman, even though I do not fully agree with all he did. He made some tough decisions, rather than worrying about the popular choice, he made what he thought was the right one. It wasn't easy to drop the Bomb. It wasn't easy for him to fire MacArthur. But he did what was needed. As the sign on his desk said, the buck stops here. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: The burden of proof is on those who claim that Russia would have entered the war and nuked the USA. I don't believe either contention. Mao went on to kill up to 75 million Chinese to consolidate his power over the new communist regime in China. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Canadian jokes and population
I figured you would enjoy 'em. I find that the Canadians without a sense of humor tend to live further east... and speak French K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Mark Gregson: (BTW, Gary, I'm laughing with your jokes here, so this wasn't an angry outburst against this statement of yours. I just found it an opportune moment to go off on a tangent.) = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Invade Canada (was truman the villain
One of my favorite comics is Pearls Before Swine. One of the main characters is Rat, who is often found working unseemly plots and ploys. Anyway, he suggests we attack Mexico because it is close by. How would we do it? We would have our young teenage tourists at Cancun for spring break invade Mexico City by telling them they can get tacos there In another comic, a newspaper reporter asks him if he advocates also invading Canada. Rat says, No I don't. We've already got that one. The reporter says that we don't, we just play hockey together. Rat asks, How are their tacos? In other words, We won't invade Canada until they get a decent Taco stand up there BTW, in your statement below, are you suggesting that Canada is a rogue state K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: You mean Congress isn't doing its duty if it isn't always declaring war on someone? No wonder they want to invade Canuckistan now -- there are no other rogue states left. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] truman the villain
Actually, no. We had a treaty, signed by Congress, stating we would defend Korea from any invasions. Congress also ratified our working with the UN on fighting the war. So, it was done under the okay of our Constitution. You see, the Constitution doesn't say we have to declare war, it only says that it is Congress' duty to declare war. Would you say that the Nephites and Capt Moroni should then have trudged into Lamanite territory and totally obliterated the enemy? Or was their defensive war a villanous thing to do? This sounds totally opposite what you have been saying concerning the possible upcoming war with Iraq. We just see it differently. Different enemies require different treatments. Some can be persuaded with diplomacy, some with a little muscle and containment, while others require full out offensive. If it were just us against the North Koreans, I can see your point. But as Jesus told us that the wise man counts his pennies before building the house, we had to determine just what level of interdiction we were willing to make in Korea. Given that the Soviets would have jumped in on the war if we were to have invaded China, we were looking at nuclear holocaust. Truman wasn't willing to go that far, and I thank him for it. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: Unless the order is illegal. And Truman's orders were clearly illegal by any constitutional standards. The whole war was unconstitutional. And that is the whole problem. Nations have no business going to war with a limited plan. Do you think that either the North Koreans or China had a limited plan? Talking about a limited plan is talking about pulling your punches. And in any fight, pulling your punches is the road to defeat such as we suffered in Vietnam. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] One party rule?
The difference is that Zion will not force you to give up your wheat or other items. One must voluntarily give all things through consecration, otherwise it isn't taken. Of course, those who will not consecrate also will not be allowed to dwell in Zion, but you have choices. The Lord doesn't plunder, even on the stuff that he already owns. However, In a land where the federal government heavily taxes, you have two choices: give up the money or go to jail. You can't just move to another state that has less/no taxes. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: Plunder?? Can we read about this in the DC? Consecration? United Order? Let us take from the riches of John Redelfs and give to poor Paul Osborne! After all, we are all brethren and we should be more equal in wealth. Right? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] MRI
So, would a two week refresher course be enough for the patients? K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: It's a tragedy these things happen. Everyone who goes into an MRI room should be trained and no unauthorized person should be allowed in. Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] flying lessons
And since Canada has so much open land, they aren't filled with a bunch of overzealous environmental overseers that whine and complain anytime the military wants to blow something up. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: I'd look forward to it. Cold Lake is one of three fighter wing commands (the other two being in Ontario and Quebec) for Canadian Forces Air Command (what used to be the RCAF, iow) and a lot of NATO training takes place there. The cruise missile was tested there, among other places, because the Primrose Lake Air Weapons Range resembles the muskeg of large parts of Siberia (and it's big enough that if you make a mistake in targetting, it's no big deal!) Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Coffee beans
The coffee bean can be used to produce caffeine, which is an important drug used for some illnesses. Just as with other drugs, it can be abused and misused. My grandfather was prescribed caffeine for a heart condition he had. The doctor told him he could either pay a dollar per caffeine pill or drink a cup of coffee every day. So at breakfast, he would say it was time to take his medicine, then drink a cup of coffee. Since it was prescribed, it wasn't breaking the WoW. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: You're absolutely right, Marc. I love the smell of coffee and I suppose it will always be a temptation for me. There is nothing wrong with being tempted so long as you don't yield to the temptation and partake of the forbidden substance. I'm hoping that the coffee bean will someday be pronounced clean. What do you think? Every time I walk down the isle of the grocery store and smell those flavored beans it puts my nose in a state of alert. What do you suppose the coffee bean is for? Surely it must serve some sort of purpose other than to tempt the weaker saints like me. Paul O Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] answer to life
I am not off base. You will note that I said the word, MAY, leaving the option open for the correct base. Jon is the one who insisted on base 12. I just left the door open for many possible solutions, showing once again that the answer 42 does not yet have A (as in single) perfect answer. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe -Gary- what if the person isn't using Euclidean mathematics? Then 9 times 6 may NOT equal 42. [...] -Jon- Then 9 times 6 equals 46. And that IS the correct answer. -Marc- In the decimal system, of course, you decidigicist, you... Stephen: Just occurred to me: 9 x 6 = 42 in base 13, and 9 x 6 = 46 in base 12. Obviously, Gary and Jon are simply off-base. Stephen Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Also, they only had the two bombs. To make more would take months of refining the ore and building the bombs. To use one in an ineffective way would have been a waste of precious resources that could finish the war quickly and with fewer casualties. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe At 05:33 AM 11/9/2002 -0700, Steven wrote: Stephen, Perhaps you're right, but I still fail to see how the United States maintained the moral high ground by bombing civilians. I think a demonstration about 5 miles offshore might have accomplished the same purpose. This is an excellent question. The rationale at the time was that a demonstration of nuclear power would also demonstrate an unwillingness to use that power against people - thus negating its effectiveness. It was obviously a difficult decision either way. I find it hard to support second quessing the men who had to make it without our 50 years of hindsight. Rick Mathis Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Magnetic Personality
Let's see, Marc is taking the word of a guy who used to work for Microsoft, and even though no longer employed by them, spends his time offering to give tours of the grounds of Microsoft's campus H, yeah, I can see why you would hold his observations so highly on this one ;-) K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: It couldn't have been a CAT scan, which is just a glorified, spinning x-ray machine, basically. I heard it was an MRI. I don't dispute Stephen -- he sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but I can't remember any more than what I wrote. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] umbrella
If I were you, I'd keep my eye on those fellas in Greenland and Iceland. Of course, the Norse are infamous for having invaded Canada in the past. They could do it again. Environmentalists would be near the top of potential Canadian terrorists. Remember their reaction when you guys were clubbing baby seals twenty years ago? They attack lumberjacks here, just imagine what they would do in such a meagerly populated nation as yours? They might even outnumber you! Finally, there are those Quebecanucks. You know, those french people who think they are their own country, even though they can never get enough people to vote for secession that they never fully succeed? K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Mark: I'd feel much safer without the umbrella, especially since 11 September 2001. No one has ever yet given me a list of the enemies who could attack Canada, let alone who would. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Mannequins
Would someone please tell Till's wife to keep him away from the store front windows? He's scaring the passersby... K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Till: Around here, I'm not sure I see anything on the mannikins in the front window Just an observation from the Tillster Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Islam takes over the world
Here's a news article I just found: West in mortal danger from Islam, says Putin http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/11/12/wput12.x ml By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Brussels and Julius Strauss in Moscow (Filed: 12/11/2002) Islamic radicals are pursuing the systematic annihilation of non-Muslims, President Vladimir Putin claimed yesterday. The Russian leader said at a European Union summit in Brussels that western civilisation faced a mortal threat from Muslim terrorists, and claimed that they had plans to create a worldwide caliphate. President Vladimir Putin His words overshadowed the main achievement of the summit, which was to end years of wrangling over Moscow's isolated enclave in Kaliningrad. The EU and Russia reached a compromise deal that will prevent Russian citizens from being cut off in the Baltic port as the EU's borders move east in 2004. Mr Putin said the world no longer faced isolated acts of terrorism but a concerted effort and programme by a global network bent on slaughter, perhaps with nuclear weapons. He said the West should face up to the reality that Chechen terrorists were religious extremists in league with al-Qa'eda, rather than a separatist movement seeking a breakaway republic. If the West failed to deal with the Chechen terrorist threat, he said, there would be repeats of the Moscow theatre siege and the Bali bombing all over the world. Mr Putin secured a joint EU-Russian action plan to fight terrorism at the mini-summit, but he was firmly warned that Europe would not give Russia carte blanche in its fight against terrorism, particularly after reports that fragmentation bombs were being used widely against civilians in Chechnya. Privately, EU diplomats said Mr Putin was playing the al-Qa'eda card for all it was worth, seeing it as a useful way to create a sense of common purpose with the West and heighten the strategic value of Russia. /unquote So although I'm sure it is partially rhetoric on Putin's part, it is based on actual events and truth. Islamic attacks are happening on most continents (none on Antarctica, so far). Why? Because they are wanting to establish power throughout the earth, seeing a Millennial day of their own, when all would be Muslim. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] one party rule?
, China, etc. A true liberal sees that there is validity in fixing programs that do not work, or getting rid of them. A liberal also sees the validity in keeping programs on the lowest level possible, so the individual doesn't get lost in the red tape. A liberal wants to fix the current school system, and won't let the American Education Association's socialist agenda stop them from saving the kids. A liberal might even approve of vouchers as a temporary solution until something can be resolved in the long term, in order to help the downtrodden and illiterate. I think there is a Democratic Senator from Connecticutt who actually agrees with me on this one. The party has been controlled by people like Tom Daschle, who have fought moving the nation, not for the sake of liberal issues, but for party politics (this is not to say that Republicans don't also do party politics. I'm not a big Trent Lott fan). After their big defeat in this election, they are now going to have to get a new Minority Whip for the House to replace Gephardt. Rather than get someone who is a true liberal, it looks like they are picking someone who is even more socialistic from San Francisco to replace him. They are definitely controlled by socialists. A strong federal government can be a blessing OR a great curse. Would you want to live under a Stalin, Hitler, or Mao? Yet that is what one gets when a federal government becomes very powerful, then lets a corrupt person into power. We can't read the hearts of men, so one never knows just what one will get in a leader. Hitler was extremely convincing to those who listened to him. They didn't see him as a monster, at least not until he was in power. Then, it was too late to stop him. I would much rather have a tyrant in one or two states, where the people can flee to other states if necessary, than to have all 275 million of us trapped under a dictator, and a dictator who happens to have nuclear weapons. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Irwin: Hello, my name is Irwin Delay. I recently joined the list. Although I am not a Latter-day Saint, I have been reading LDS literature for the past three years. Also, I am engaged to a Latter-day Saint. I must respond to the statements of Gerald Smith. Let me first say I am an unapologetic, flaming liberal. I do not think the Democratic party is controlled by the socialist. Also, the problem I have with the idea of states' rights is the fact of what happened to African Americans forty years ago. Were blacks in the south expected to migrate en masse to the north to escape segregation? A strong federal government is a must in order to protect the rights of the minority. Irwin Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Truman
Man! Talk about a bunch of ravenous wolves we have on this list! Throw them a bone and they'll have it devoured before it hits the ground. Fortunately for all of you, I'm in a good mood. So none of you will be exiled from the Zion list this week. Instead, I'll expect all of you to do penance to the BLT when he passes through your areas of the hemisphere. You'd better start practicing genuflecting and ring kissing now. Oh, and there will be a test K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: He was probably thinking of Czechoslovakia. Steven Montgomery wrote: At 08:15 PM 11/11/2002, Gary wrote: Wilford Woodruff divided the nations after WWI, including making a new nation called Yugoslavia. He did? grin If so, he must have done so as a resurrected being. ;-) -- Steven Montgomery Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Answer to life
Jon's using the Pavlovian answer. Anyone could come up with 9 times 6 whenever the bell rings. I suppose there was mouth foaming issues involved in it, too. So in other words, it wasn't the perfect question. You can't have a perfect question if there is any mouth foaming involved. Also, what if the person isn't using Euclidean mathematics? Then 9 times 6 may NOT equal 42. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: Are you sure? Jon Spencer wrote: The question is: What is 9 times 6? Jon Gary Smith wrote: Ahh, that's true. But what is the question Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Truman (was Taliban in pakistan)
Knowing no one is perfect, I try to judge a person for all that they try to do, even if their choices end up occasionally being wrong. Truman chose not to continue the Korean War into China, because he realized a few things: First, they outnumbered us by hundreds of millions. Second, we had just finished one world war, and most Americans and our allies weren't ready for another. Third, we were there under UN authorization, and they had not authorized entering China. Fourth, as much as I like MacArthur, he disobeyed prime military orders about speaking out against the Commander in Chief, and the president's orders to stop, in the press. MacArthur pushed, and Truman didn't blink. Truman fired him because he was forced to do so. Had Truman left him in, he would have lost tons of political capital and integrity. We can attack individuals for the choices they made through hindsight, or we can realize that such decisions are complicated. Chaos theory states that a butterfly flapping its wings today in China can cause storms in America in two weeks. Do we condemn Truman for limiting the Korean war, yet then you condemn George W Bush for seeking to extend the war on terrorism to Iraq? Just where is the consistency? Do we condemn Reagan for ending the Cold War? Because there is no longer the two major powers balancing each other, it opened a vacuum for the terrorists to step into. Personally, I think I prefer having the soviets balancing our freedom, because at least we knew where they were and what to expect of them. They didn't blow themselves up in order to gain heaven. Or do we praise Reagan for his efforts in the short term, knowing that no one can know the long term effects, good or ill; nor can we know what effects would occur if we did nothing. If you were in an airplane and somehow had a valid prediction that your plane would hit another plane and go down in flames, what would you do? Would you turn the plane around? Yet, what if that is what causes the plane to crash? Do you do nothing, and hope that you don't end up in the wrong place at the wrong time? You see the conundrum? All we can see is the short term. Truman couldn't anticipate 50 years ago that we would go through such a long Cold War, or a period of freedom for those nations. Wilford Woodruff divided the nations after WWI, including making a new nation called Yugoslavia. How was he to know that he was combining ethnic groups that had been trying to kill each other for centuries, and that his carving of nations would be affecting us almost a century later? It is easy to condemn in hindsight. It is very hard to predict the long term outcomes of any choice. Now, with Jimmy Carter (I'm watching his Bio on PBS right now), we can condemn him on many things, because he was wishy washy. He didn't make a real choice, and dragged things down. In running for Governor, he played the racists and the black side of the issues. In his run for presidency, he said he was liberal, centrist, and conservative, all at once. Ford condemned his wishy washiness, and it continued through the entire presidency. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR:Truman fired MacArthur. It is unlikely that he did anything else right. All MacArthur wanted was permission to win the Korean War. He should have quit before Truman fired him. But Truman was a first class villain. My feelings about Truman are 180 degrees out of phase with those I feel for Washington, Reagan, etc. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] War against Islam
Islam is gaining power in much of the Western world. Already in the Norway, they make up 10% of the population, which is a huge part of the voting bloc. With such a power bloc like that, politicians are now being soft on Islamic fundamentalists, and are even condemning US efforts against terrorism.f Islamic groups are encouraging more to move into the nation, so they can become an even greater power there. Other nations in Europe are feeling the same effects of migration and conversion to Islam. Just look at who some of the more popular terrorists have been: converted Americans and Europeans. They are exporting their religion, which is not the terrible thing. The terrible thing is that they are also exporting their jihad. Muslim schools in England and Europe are now found to be teaching anti-Western sentiments. Islamic calendars with Sept 11 marked with burning airplanes were found in some of these schools after the 9/11 tragedy. Their Jihad is on the same level as the Christian Crusades. Those who went on the Crusades were promised everlasting life. They were told to use whatever means to obtain the holy city. And they did. They were ruthless, killing men, women and children. They even toppled Constantinople, an Orthodox Christian city! So it is with the Jihad today. It is a holy war. In holy war, or a Crusade, people will do whatever is necessary to obtain victory and heaven. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe John: Do you really think there is any danger that Islam could become a giant threat that engulfs the nations? That seems rather unlikely to me regardless of we do or don't do. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] scriptures are not secular?
The saints tend to magnify the doctrines and truths that the living prophet does. Pres Hinckley speaks little about fire and brimstone (except for abusive husbands and fathers), and speaks much on hope and joy. He is giving us the direction we should generally go, while not forgetting what his predecessors have taught. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: Much of scripture is devoted to descriptions of this fire and brimstone. I wonder why so few pay attention? Maybe the Lord made a mistake to include such negative, pessimistic stuff in the scriptures, do you think? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] war against all Islam
Just as with the Bible, it depends on what verses one is reading in the Quran. While some read into the Quran that the Jews are infidels, we also read in it that the Jews are brothers/cousins and should be cared for and lifted up by Islam. I do happen to know some Muslims that are good friends of the Jews (and vice versa), because they have moderated their view of their own holy writings, understanding them as a whole and not reading violence into them. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe No. I would say that person wasn't a true Muslim. Are not the Jews infidels? Paul O Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Governing the least
I have my moments up and down. However, as the 2nd counselor in the stake presidency reminded us in our weekly stake presidency meeting this morning (i'm stake clerk), Moroni 7 tells us we need to develop faith and hope. As we develop both, then it helps put worldly things into proper perspective: we aren't overwhelmed by temporal and temporary events. Instead, we constantly remind ourselves of the world to come, and how it fills us with joy - even while we are sitting on this telestial rock floating in the vastness of space. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: Gary, I'm glad you cope so well on this earth. I want it to be as easy as possible and I want the least amount of trials too but that doesn't seem to be my lot. If life as a god is not as happy as I expect it should be than maybe I don't want to be a god. I'm just here because Heavenly Father expected it and I agreed to come here to grow. But this earth is a rotten place for me and if God judges me or takes away my opportunity for exaltation because that is how I feel and react or don't do all I could have done like refuse a calling or something else-- SO BE IT!!! Paul O ~the servant? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Japan (was Taliban in Pakistan)
Japan did seek peace early. However, their conditions also included keeping all the territory they had gained (China, Korea, Phillippines, several other islands). Truman, in deciding to use the A-Bomb, considered all angles. He was told that an invasion of Japan's mainland would end up in 1 million American casualties, and millions of Japanese casualties. Given the number of casualties on smaller islands (Iwo Jima, etc), these numbers were probably correct. Japan wanted to establish the terms of surrender, yet they were the ones to provoke war. It doesn't work that way, especially when you are concerned about a people who worship their emperor as a god. That is probably why we are so concerned about North Korea today. Their emperor is a god to the people there, and as dangerous as the old Japanese emperor. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Steven and Stephen discuss: -Steven quotes _The New American Magazine_- This current display, therefore, repeats the notion that the dropping of the bombs by the U.S. brought Japan to the peace table and saved countless lives on both sides. But this historical view, like the original commentary intended for the exhibit, is not supported by the facts. Just to be clear: If the net effect of dropping two atomic bombs was to kill 100,000 of the enemy and thereby save _one_ American life, it would have been the moral duty of the commander-in-chief to do so. I doubt you can convince me that Americans would not have died had the bombs not been dropped; therefore, in my moral calculus, at least, dropping the bombs was the only moral decision Truman could have made. But in fact the Japanese had sent peace feelers to the West as early as 1942, only six months after the December 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor. More would come in a flood long before the fateful use of the atomic bombs. I see. So, the enemy starts asking about peace twenty or so weeks after taking out your strategic harbor, and therefore you're supposed to believe they're sincere. Do I have that right? Here was an enemy who had been trying to surrender for almost a year before the conflict ended. Um, that would have been 1944. What happened to six months after Pearl Harbor? In her book, Brown supplied abundant evidence about the immense perfidy that kept the Japanese from surrendering until such time as the Soviets were ready to enter the war against Japan and the American forces had dropped the atomic bombs on civilian populations. Yes, Mark presented a web site detailing this same evidence a few years back. Interesting reading, perhaps with some truth to it. But in the end, it's bogus. All Japan had to do was to broadcast their unconditional surrender and they would have been spared. Blockade or no, Japan struck first and picked the fight, committing unspeakable atrocities in the warfare. If they didn't want to lose face by open surrender, that is their own fault, no the US's. Toshikasu Kase, an official of the Japanese Foreign Office, delivered a highly confidential message to the interned British ambassador, Sir Robert Craigi. It contained a discreet hint regarding the eventual restoration of peace. Emanating from Japanese Foreign Minister Togo, this message stated, Should it happen that the British Government became desirous of discussing or negotiating peace they would find the Japanese Government ready to be helpful. Yet we mannerless Americans, with no grasp whatsoever of the subtle nuances of civilized etiquette, just went on ahead and bombed them, all because of a little misunderstanding over a Hawaiian naval base. Yes, I see your point. In his 1952 book Fleet Admiral King, Admiral Ernest J. King reported President Roosevelt's 1942 understanding that by the application of sea power, Japan could be forced to surrender without an invasion of her home islands. This attitude, shared by most of our military leaders, would quickly be abandoned by the President. Instead, the costly island-by-island advance of U.S. forces northward through the Pacific continued. Hmmm. Might that be because Admiral King perhaps didn't witness the attempted taking of Italian peninsula, an Axis ally that actually had a lot of population who secretly sided with the Allies, and who in any case didn't plan to fight -- and that still resulted in a bloody campaign starting from the south and spanning the length of the country, a country roughly the size of Japan? If a comparatively friendly foe like Italy would be untakeable by naval forces alone and require extensive, bloody infantry warfare, why should the commander-in-chief have supposed that Japan, the original aggressor, a country whose pilots willingly sacrificed themselves to mess up carrier decks, would lay down and become docile under
[ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Marc, EVERY ward or branch has a little old man or lady who speaks in tongues every fast and testimony meeting! Usually they spew forth sermons about fire and brimstone. Of course, everyone understands what they are saying even before they speak, since we all expect it So, I don't see your point. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: Paul points out that these types of miracles tend to accompany the very beginning of a new dispensation, but then are inappropriate (when you read all of I Corinthians 13 you'll see that he's saying that signs and miracles aren't as important at that point than Christlike love). I think we see that now, too. What would happen if an elderly lady stood up in your next fast testimony meeting and started talking in tongues? I dare say the bishop would call 911. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Governing the least
And you think the next life will be any easier I just think about what God must have been feeling as he was dealing death to his children during the Great Flood. Enoch tells us that God wept like we cannot imagine. Truly, to be God means we aren't just blissfully happy all the time, but we have all the range of God-like emotions, including sadness and sorrow. I thank God for this world. All of its struggles teach me so very much. I have learned patience and compassion through my trials, two things that I don't readily fall to in life. At the same time, some of the most wonderful experiences come to me because of this life. How could I despise a gift that God has given me? I mean, without this gift called mortality, I could never learn to be like God. There are many beautiful things around me. I am glad to be here to see the geese fly in from the Zoo, to feed in the fields behind my house. I am glad to see my wife get an A on her college class. I am glad to see a new member go to the temple. I am glad to see one of my children or grandchildren succeed at something. And I'm glad for the trials. They teach me so very much on how to be godlike. I've been out of work for a few months now, and though it drives me crazy at times, it has also given me much time with my wife-what a nice reward. I'll go when I'm called to go. If I have to live through the great disasters at the end, I'll do it with the knowledge that it will improve me and strengthen me. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul Osborne wrote: --- Trust me, you're not alone. I don't care about Jackon County or the second coming or any of the dreaded prophecies of doom. I just want to get my mission done and get out of here. The sooner the better as I wish the Lord would hurry it up and beam me up. I'm so sick of this world. --- Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Japan
We had gone through 5 years of war, with our allies having gone through more. Japan was enslaving the peoples of China and Korea, using the women for all kinds of unspeakable things. Japan tortured our American soldiers they captured. 20 million Russian allies died because of Hitler. Hitler had slaughtered 6 million Jews. Millions of soldiers had died on all fronts. We wanted the war to end. I mean, Germany had surrendered, and Japan insisted on continuing the fight they had started. Although it is a shame we had to do it, Japan was not serious about surrender until we dropped the bomb. Had we invaded the island, we would have been fighting in the streets of Tokyo, where millions would have ended up casualties in order to protect the emperor. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stephen, Perhaps you're right, but I still fail to see how the United States maintained the moral high ground by bombing civilians. I think a demonstration about 5 miles offshore might have accomplished the same purpose. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] War against all of Islam
But sometimes one must stand up for what is right. Capt Moroni didn't back down from the threat of the kingmen. He could have rolled over, fearing war, and allowed the free republic they had become a kingdom. But he realized that freedom, religion, and their families were more important than keeping the peace. We tried staying out of WWI and WWII. Instead, we found that the longer we stayed out, the more entrenched the enemy became. It would have been much easier to defeat Japan and Germany while they were still within their own national boundaries. Maintaining the Phillipine Islands would have been easier than retaking it. And so it was with all those other islands we recovered. Do we wait until Islam engulfs the nations and becomes a giant threat, before we encourage it to stand down and live peacefully among the nations of the world? Or do we step in early, while it is easier? Pres Hinckley, speaking about children, told a story of a tree he planted. Years later it was growing crooked, and he couldn't work it, even with a wench. So he had to cut a major branch off. Had he watched it when it was young, a little string would have corrected it. I'm not saying we need to be Mom and Pop to all the world, but we need to watch for global threats and be ready to nip them in the bud, or else have even more dangerous conflicts later on. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe I basically believe we will attack and they in turn attack us. We will then incite the entire Islamic world and all will turn against us. Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth
I was listening to talk radio today, and they played some stuff from last night's FrontLine (PBS). They had a newsman slip into Iraq and he was interviewing people. They were describing the slaughters going on there. One woman said that her village was forced to an execution. They had to watch 15 women being beheaded by sword. Only a couple were prostitutes, most were doctors and school teachers. I think that in the long run, the majority of Iraqis (especially the women) will be as happy to have us come as did the Afghani women. Today we finished rebuilding a school for girls in one of the major Afghan cities. It has been closed since the Taliban took over. Afghanistan has one of the largest death rates for child bearing (7 in 100), because women aren't allowed to see doctors. We are training dozens of midwives to help inthe deliveries. I'd say that we are saving many of these people, just as we saved Europe from itself in WWII. Thanks to us, Europe is primarily democratic and the people live decent lives. This is now beginning to occur in Russia and Eastern Europe. And perhaps we can export it to more of the world as we fight terrorism (which I am convinced Saddam is involved with). You'll note that Pres Bush has been working with the UN, and in fact the UN Security Council voted unanimously today (including Syria). That definitely shows that Pres Bush is speaking tough in order to get the rest of the world to move a little, yet he's still compromising with them. Iraq now has a month to disarm, or the UN can take action. I think that is very fair. In WWII, we had to fight on several fronts. We didn't just attack Japan and leave Germany and Italy alone until we finished with Japan. We fought them all at once. We still have things to do in Afghanistan, but that doesn't mean we aren't ready to select additional targets in the war of terrorism. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
Yes, we are. We at least must prove them sufficiently to ourselves in order for us to accept them. What is one plus one? The majority will say two. Why? Because we accept the theorem, based upon evidence that it works for us. Do you and I believe in the BoM? Yes. Why? Because we have tested it against the evidence of the Holy Ghost. Though your text book told you about biology, you still cut into that frog in class. Why? To prove the statements in the book that a frog does have heart, lungs, etc. Each time you turn on a light switch, you do it with faith, because you have previously tested the theory that it will normally turn on the light. When the light doesn't come on, then new theories appear: the bulb is broken, the power is out, the wiring is messed up, etc. To get this fixed, we must test each possible answer until the evidence points us to the correct one. IN other words, we test theories out each and every day. Most are on things that are not earth shattering. But they are theories, nonetheless. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: Not all of us are required to prove theories. Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Gethsemane
Another thought on Gethsemane. Most Christians believe Christ prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane. However, there is evidence that he may have actually done it in the Cave of Gethsemane. On the Mount of Olives, in Gethsemane is a winepress in a cave. During the oil pressing season it is very busy making olive oil from the trees on the Mount. However, in the spring, it was often used as a place for travelers to stay. In Mark, where the man (Mark himself) was found by the Roman soldiers in a blanket, and runs off naked, it suggests someone who was sleeping. What better place than the cave? Is it possible Christ prayed in a corner of the cave, and then left it to meet with Judas Iscariot and the soldiers? I think so. Another thought: rather than sleeping, maybe Mark was receiving initiatory temple ordinances, which would also explain his lack of clothing. Perhaps the cave was being used as a temporary place for ordinances, and Christ wanted the disciples to stay awake with him to receive an endowment, when the angel came to strengthen him. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: n.B. my example of Isaiah and how to read the confusing references to winepresses and the like. It's not winepresses that are important (although it's interesting to note that Gethsemane comes from a word meaning winepress but I digress), Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] antigravity
It is also called the cosmological constant that Einstein came up with, then later considered his biggest error. It was discovered recently when we found out that the universe is not only still expanding, but it is expanding at an increasing speed. Previously, it was believed to be expanding at an ever decreasing speed as one would expect from a universe impacted by gravity and distance. I believe that this invisible constant is what we call the Light of Christ, which fills the immensity of space (DC 93). K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Originally it was written by Moses. However, we do not know how many iterations it has gone through since then. How often was it translated and retranslated by Jewish scribes. Which version was found by Josiah's people in the temple? There were different versions of ancient writings, depending on whether a person was from Judah or Israel, for example. We have what are now considered the written traditions of J and E (Jehovah and Elohim). Some LDS scholars suggest that the Brass Plates of Laban may have been the E source, as it would have come from the land of Israel and speaks of prophets that were concentrated there. Instead of pushing the law of Moses and the Yahwist/Jehovah-ist belief system, it tends toward the Elohim belief system: high places and altars for worship, personal revelations to individuals rather than a societal religion that imposes revelation on the individuals, etc. Both Hezekiah and Josiah tried changing the Yahwist religion into one of centralized temple worship, removing all other places of worship. Meanwhile, the nation of Israel/Ephraim stayed loyal to the ancient tradition of high places and altars (like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob used), and building two specific altars with gold calves. I have surmised through my studies that these calves may have been representative of Elohim, who like Baal, was represented by a bull anciently (power, reproductive ability, etc). While much of ancient Israel believed Jehovah and Elohim had a consort (female wife), later Yahwists rejected this idea. So there were many ideas floating around. All of these beliefs found their way into the Bible, with only the Yahwist belief, modified by a later Priestly form, strongly surviving into the post-Babylonian exile period. After 500 BC, the prophets were based on a temple-centric religion and taught from that form. Christ and his apostles actually broke somewhat from the Yahwist format, returning to the ancient form (Christ praying in the wilderness, infrequent visits to the temple except for Passover, Mount of Transfiguration, etc). So, it is as complicated as Marc puts it. Interestingly, the BoM supports the idea of it being complicated. The Brass Plates show another version of the scriptures, with additional prophets (Zenos, Zenoc, etc) and a different viewpoint (Joseph vs Judah). Lehi and Jeremiah also preach against the Yahwist religion of the day. Jeremiah praises the Rekhabites, a tribe of Israelites that lived in the wilderness and worshiped as the ancients did, and condemns the way temple worship turned out. We see this same thing occur with the Dead Sea Scrolls, as their Teacher of Righteousness condemns the False/Wicked Priest for usurping the priesthood and temple authority. They go to the wilderness to worship in purity. I see a trendthat continues today. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: Deuteronomy was written by Moses, just as the rest of the Pentateuch was. It was not part of a strange and complex historical soup. --JWR Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Bible vs the Scientists
John, The difference is that we have many GAs who have told us that portions of the Bible ARE symbolic. That leaves the Bible's historicity at least partially in question. Meanwhile, they have all told us that the BoM is literal. Signaturi don't want to believe that any scripture is historically based. We believe all of the BoM is, and much (if not most) of the Bible is. Marc and I are consistent with what the GAs have taught on these books. We haven't stated definitively that Joshua never was at Jericho, but only that there are discrepancies with current science. This allows all to look at the evidence and make up their own mind with all the current facts. I don't ask anyone to stop believing in the Global Flood or Jericho's walls. I only ask them to consider other ways of interpreting a book that we have been told has symbolism in some of its stories. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR:I didn't say anything about Signaturi. I don't think you or anyone else on this list is a Signaturi, or I would have booted you off years ago. But to suggest that something must be symbolism instead of literal just because one cannot come up with a naturalistic explanation is EXACTLY what the Signaturi do when they deny the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Forced to choose between belief and man's logic, they equivocate. They try to straddle a fence that is a razor blade. If they can't explain it in scientific terms, they just say it is a figure of speech and that it doesn't matter as long as the divine principle was communicated. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Matter is not empty. Recently it was discovered that Einstein was right concerning the cosmological constant that maintains the universe spreading out at an ever increasing speed. This means there is an invisible force that acts on all matter. I think LDS would call this the Light of Christ, which fills all space (DC 93). K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: Now if matter is so... empty, if we are really just a mass of whirling atomic and subatomic particles, then anyone with the requisite faith can literally move mountains just by wishing them elsewhere. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Symbolic Distractions
Jim, We have the INS, FBI, CIA and the AARP checking into your cryptic message to determine whether you were sending a terrorist message to any Islamic or right wing fundamentalists on the list. We noted the word stab. Does that connote a violent action with a weapon? If one guess is as good as another, then I suspect you should expect a visit from your local constabulary pronto. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 05:47:09 + From: Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Symbolic distractions This message is symbolic, therefore it cannot be construed to contain any particular meaning. Take a stab in the dark, interpret it however you like. One guess is as good as another. --- Mij Ebaboc Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
No, it is postulating a theory. Once a theory is set out for all to read, then it is up to the rest of us to disprove the theory by testing it against known evidences. That does not yet make it a fact, as future evidence can always refute a theory. Without theories, we would not advance in science or knowledge. The danger comes when we convince ourselves that a theory is a fact, when in fact, it isn't. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: It seems to me that an honest scholar would just stick to writing things he can authenticate using the documentary record, or at least the archaeological record. In the absence of such records the author isn't just engaging in unfounded supposition, he is engaged in irresponsible guessing and wild speculation. That is, he is just making up the story. Such a book is fiction, not nonfiction. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] how do we know we are real?
I believe it was Renee DesCartes who said, I think, therefore I have a headache. No, wait. I think, therefore I like green eggs and ham. No. I think, therefore I am. Yeah, that's it. We can ponder our own existence, real or not. However, since I experience things, why should I worry if I'm real? As long as I think it, then it is real to me. BTW, who wrote, I feel, therefore I am.? K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: How do we know we are real? This whole thing could be the day dreaming of a God who is looking at the future. The scriptures prove in the revelation saying He lives but how do we know that we really live? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Elder McConkie wrote that Eve really wasn't created from the rib of Adam, that it was symbolic of their equality. I guess that means it isn't a secular history, eh? There is history in the Bible and BoM. However, they weren't written to be secular histories. They were written primarily to be books of holy writings, with history intermingled. A secular history concentrates on the historical side. Had the Bible and BoM been secular histories, we would have very little on the religious information except as it fit into the regular history. Instead, Nephi tells us that his book of secular history was contained on the large plates (history of kings, wars, etc), and the small plates (BoM) were to concentrate primarily on spiritual issues. Is Isaiah a secular history? No. Are there historical issues in it? Yes. But it concentrates on spiritual themes, not on secular history. Same with most of the writings in the Bible, with few exceptions (like Esther or Chronicles). Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jesus are all historical people. However, how to know if every story in the Bible is historical concerning them is another thing. Just looking at the many extra-Biblical writings there are telling stories on Abraham, Seth, Noah, Melchizedek, and others, show us that these ancient stories may or may not be true. Many ancient stories about Jesus' childhood are obviously faith-promoting, but false stories. Yet thousands of early Christians believed these stories. Does that make them historical? No. And in this same vein, we are not sure just which specific stories are totally accurate in the Bible. We already know that the Songs of Solomon is uninspired, according to Joseph Smith. But how do we know other issues? King David was historical, however archaeology suggests that his kingdom wasn't as great as it is described in the Bible. Did David's scribes enhance his victories to establish him as a great regional king? Archaeology also shows that Jericho didn't have the walls tumbling down when Joshua fought it. Joshua is historical, but the Bible isn't a secular history. It was written for two things: to make Jehovah as great (or greater) than the other regional gods, and to show the Israelites conquering everyone. But today's evidence shows there was little conquest, and mostly just integration with other Semites/Canaanites in the area. In fact, the Bible also suggests this as we see many nations dwelt in their midst. Dan seems to disappear from the Bible, probably being absorbed among the Sea Peoples (according to Trude Dothan, Philistine and Sea People expert). So, Marc is right. There is history, and these are historical people. But since the Bible wasn't written as a secular history, we don't know how much is actual history and how much is propaganda to make Israel look bigger and more important than it originally was among the other nations. The BoM also isn't a secular history, as I said above. There are hundreds of years covered in just a few pages (Omni, Jarom), which isn't usually done in a secular history. A secular history also wouldn't cover so much preaching. Also, it would concentrate on the kings' activities, rather than the chief priests. It is a spiritual history with historical events included. BTW, had it been a secular history, it would probably be easier to find where the Nephites and Lamanites really were on the American continent, because it would have described their cities, rivers, and events better. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: If this was so, the apostles and prophets from Joseph Smith on would have told us so. everything I have ever heard from modern prophets teaches that the old history of the world is true and historical unless you choose to believe that our religion is based upon lies, fairy tales, and faith promoting nonsense. I suppose you might also think Moses was a myth because there is not one scrap of credible evidence of Moses or the Israelites in Egypt and I hope you don't choose to argue this point with me because you will loose big time. So beware! Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Guns, Germs...
I look at such ideas as a way to expand possibilities and learning in my own life. Joseph F Smith said it should all be considered scaffolding used to help build the actual building of true knowledge. Since we don't have exact information on how long the creation took for example, we really don't know what the exact process is that God used. So, we can often get the same uncertainty in the scriptures as we find in science. I don't turn away from science. I use it as scaffolding to help me learn to understand the things in this world. I understand that it is based upon theory, so it doesn't phase me when it blatantly contradicts the scriptures. I know there will be unanswered questions. Rather than run away from it, I do as JFS suggested, and use it all as possible scaffolding. God doesn't condemn us for keeping an open mind on non-doctrinal things. Now, we could argue on what denotes doctrine, however as individuals we each must make that determination for ourselves. I think there are too many members who run away from learning, because it would force them to consider new ideas that may help them accept the gospel on a higher level. I don't consider you one of those people, John, otherwise you wouldn't be on these lists discussing such things. An example: are the proper names for Jesus and God really Jehovah and Elohim? They have been standardized as such in the church for about 80 years (since 1919). However, in Joseph Smith's day, the name Jehovah was a title that was used interchangeably for Father and Son (see how Joseph used Jehovah in the Kirtland dedicatory prayer, DC 109). Most members never learn that God truly is nameless, as no name can contain all He is. The most we can do is use name-titles to describe him. I love science, as someday I will have to use it (along with math, language, art, etc) to form my own worlds. Developing and testing theories helps me to develop my critical thinking skills. These I believe are necessary to recognize truth from error, but also to help me in problem solving (which God obviously does much of). So, even though science may be far fromthe truth in some areas, accepting some ideas as theoretical scaffolding allows me to use those theories until a greater truth is found. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: Part of the reason I turned away from science to religion is because I despaired of learning anything with any certainty when the foremost authorities in almost every field disagree with fellow scientists about really basic things. I have a real need for at least some questions to have conclusive answers. Otherwise, life is just a constantly changing dream bound by no laws and consequently all over the map. I know very little for sure, but what little I do know I have learned from the scriptures, the modern prophets, and the testimony of the Holy Ghost. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] The Democratic Gaul
Can you imagine the nerve of the Democrats at Paul Wellstone's memorial service? I'm not very impressed with the liberal agenda, but I have long believed Wellstone to be a sincere and good man. Yet, here were his friends and son using this memorial to orchestrate a big media launch for the democratic party. How crass! They took a good man's name and turned it into a media/political circus. With friends like that, who needs enemies? I know Minnesotans like democrats, but I hope they are so disgusted with what has happened, that they vote against the Mondale and the democrats there. Perhaps it will let those political dogs gain some actual human and humane perspective. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] You just don't get it
Just to show I do get it, let me clarify my position. First off, there was a Great Apostasy. The Lord began sending light and truth down to prepare the way for the restoration through Joseph Smith. The fulness of the gospel was restored through the living prophets. The Church is different than all other Churches for two reasons: we have fuller truths, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and we have authority of God. We have the truths and authority to exalt, to give a fulness of salvation. Now, let me explain the Great Apostasy. It was a loss of authority, and much truth was lost, also. However, people still have the light of Christ to guide them (as well as the Holy Ghost) to give them some saving truths. These truths are enough to save most in a kingdom of glory. If the world had been in a total apostasy of Satanic darkness, there would have been nothing but sons of perdition and no one to save. God wants all his children to be exalted, but accepts giving his children what level of light they are willing to receive. Though other Churches do not exalt, they can help save. If a Baptist or Muslim church can help a person live a terrestrial life, that person has received a great blessing. Hopefully that person would later accept the fuller truths in the LDS Church. I understand your viewpoint, John. And I agree with it in many ways. However, I do not see the point of using vinegar all the time. The other day, I was with the Elders teaching a young woman the second discussion. We were discussing baptism, and she asked if she needed to be rebaptized, as her old minister had baptized her and he was one of the greatest men in her life. He had helped her turn her life around from living a life of drugs and teen pregnancy, into a wholesome life as a stay at home mother and wife. Should we have told her that her old minister was an apostate and his baptism was of Satan? Yeah, that would have gone far in getting her converted, eh? Vinegar. Instead, we explained that many ministers do much good work, yet there has always been a question of authority between Catholics and Protestants. In the LDS Church, we know that the Lord gave his priesthood authority to Joseph Smith, so there isn't any question on authority. She was satisfied with the answer and has accepted baptism for next month. I know these other religions cannot exalt. That is what we are here for. Yet, I do recognize the good they do, just as Brigham Young, Spencer Kimball and other prophets have noted. The prophets know there was an apostasy. They condemn false doctrines, as I do. But they don't go around with a chip on their shoulder, either. They teach our truths without seeking to offend. Alma said to be bold without overbearing. That is my goal, to teach the truths of God without offending. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: To those who defend apostate sects: You just don't get it. There was a Great Apostasy during the first two centuries of the Christian era. It was caused by the devil and his followers introducing false doctrine. The apostasy was complete. The priesthood was taken from the earth. The churches not only lost their right to perform the saving ordinances, but they also began to teach false doctrine. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
