[ZION] Global Warming

2002-11-06 Thread John W. Redelfs
We have a glacier up here in Alaska that is growing every year. I don't recall the name of it, but I know that not all glaciers are shrinking around the world. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// ///

[ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-06 Thread John W. Redelfs
http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a war against Iraq when the Taliban is coming to power in a nation that already has nuclear weapons is a

RE: [ZION] Archaeology breakthrough--dramatic transitional forms

2002-11-06 Thread Jim Cobabe
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- Jim what sources do you use to keep abreast of this kind of news? --- Only the most reputable peer-reviewed science journals. (Of course!) ;- --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please

[ZION] Supreme Court: Boy Scouts

2002-11-06 Thread Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz
I think this is recent news, but I'm not sure. I didn't see this reported on any of the usual news sites that I read through. It appears the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of the Boy Scouts on the question of whether or not the organization must be compelled to accept a leader who

[ZION] From somewhere in the eastern hemisphere

2002-11-06 Thread Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz
I got the following this AM from Tony Pinto, a former coworker of mine who got called into active duty from the Reserves. FYI./Sandy/ --- Begin quoted message --- Some of the things I miss: 1. Family 2. Friends 3. Cold Beer 4. Cold Milk 5. A real shower 6A. A toilet that is less than

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Mark Gregson
- Is it more important that the walls of Jericho fell as described, or that the people of the covenant were successful as long as they followed Him? If the walls of Jericho did not fall as described in the Bible, then in what way were the covenant people successful? If the Red Sea did

RE: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Jim Cobabe
Providing authoratative interpretation of the scriptures is one of the explict roles of prophets, seers, and revelators who lead the Lord's people. Followers of academics, apologists, revisionists, agnostics, and assorted fruits and nuts, will be sadly misled. --- Mij Ebaboc

RE: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Jim Cobabe
What Brigham Young had to say about the symbolic story of Jericho: If we are the people of God, we are to be the richest people on the earth, and these riches are to be held in God, not in the devil. God tells us how we may accomplish this, as plainly and as surely as he told Joshua and the

[ZION] Results of mid-term elections on Iraqi policy

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I've predicted that once the mid-term elections were out of the way, the protectionist measures the White House had been taking (presumably at the instigation of congressmen who were representing purely local interests) would die down, and more significantly that the pressure to invade Iraq would

[ZION] James Ossuary

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
A nice, in-depth commentary by Dr. Claude Cohen-Matlofsky on the provenance and genuineness of the James Ossuary, from this morning's Globe and Mail: http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021106/COOSSUARY/Comment/comment/comment_temp/1/1/3/ -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Gary Smith wrote: And I think that Marc and I would agree. The point we are making, is we need to be careful not to go too far in the other direction, either. We are not like the evangelist Christian movements out there who are literal Biblicists. We realize that the Bible is not perfect

Re: [ZION] Bible vs. the Scientists

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: This is a misrepresentation. Those who deny the historicity of the Book of Mormon deny that it was the record of an ancient people, but rather that it was a result of Joseph Smith's creativity. This is a lot

Re: [ZION] Antarctic Warming

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
This is precisely the way science works. It is a good study. Note, too, that he found evidence of global warming in other areas. We know that our own Arctic is warming up, as is the boreal forest, where I live. This is having a number of results -- eventually everything will settle into a new

Re: [ZION] Global Warming

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I'd be interested in knowing which one it is, as it's my understanding that all inland North American glaciers are shrinking. Naturally there could be an exception to this, such as coastal glaciers. There's another possible explanation, too, an ironic one:

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
And since I'm in a prognisticating mood, I'll further predict that the spark that will ignite that particular region (Pakistan) will be Kashmir. Right now al-Qaeda appears to be most active in Yemen, but I think eventually we'll hear more about their activities in Kashmir. The problem in Pakistan

Re: [ZION] Archaeology breakthrough--dramatic transitional forms

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Two of the best-known examples are Nature and Science: http://www.nature.com/evoeco/ (personal registration required to view ToC, and subscription to read articles) Nature is based in the UK. http://www.sciencemag.org/ (also requires registration and subscription to read articles) This is put

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
He had even stronger language about Bible stories in some discourses. Note though that the lesson Pres. Young gets out of this isn't that a physical act led to faith, but that the telling of the story, and the reading of the story, is the act of faith -- this is what I get out of his likening it

RE: [ZION] Antarctic Warming

2002-11-06 Thread Tom Matkin
-Original Message- From: Marc A. Schindler Subject: Re: [ZION] Antarctic Warming This is precisely the way science works. Or doesn't work! What will the next study show? And the one after that? One is tempted to observe after a lifetime of encounters with scientific

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I think your list contains false choices. For an explanation of the difference between secular and sacred histories, I suggest: http://www.members.shaw.ca/kschindler/frye_1.htm Your questions seem to me to proceed from the false assumption that narrative accounts are to be read in the same manner

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Sorry to reply to my own post, but I should add, too, that Hebrews 11 goes on to show that it is through faith that the actions of the ancients are well-attested. We accept the stories on faith, not on historicity, because they tell us something essential, and that something transcends actual

Re: [ZION] Global Warming

2002-11-06 Thread Stacy Smith
Have you seen any season reversals in the last few years? I don't think I have seen actual complete reversals--maybe something for a day or two. Stacy. At 01:04 PM 11/06/2002 -0600, you wrote: We have a glacier up here in Alaska that is growing every year. I don't recall the name of it, but

Re: [ZION] Bible vs. the Scientists

2002-11-06 Thread Dan R Allen
John: For some reason this line of argument reminds me of those who deny the historicity of the Book of Mormon: --- The Book of Mormon doesn't have to be literally a record of ancient America as long as the principles that it teaches are true. There probably weren't any Nephites and

Re: [ZION] Antarctic Warming

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Tom Matkin wrote: -Original Message- From: Marc A. Schindler Subject: Re: [ZION] Antarctic Warming This is precisely the way science works. Or doesn't work! You want results, I fear, that science can't provide. Science is forever tentative is a well-known saying in science.

Re: [ZION] Bible vs. the Scientists

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Dan, put another way, the difference between us and Biblicists is that they believe the Bible to *be* the word of God in an existential, substantive, an und für sich (in and of itself) sense, whereas we believe it is a *record* of the word of God, to be preached from, and interpreted by prophets.

[ZION] Antigravity

2002-11-06 Thread John W. Redelfs
I have been doing a massive search on the multiple Ebsco full-text databases on the term antigravity. And I have been amazed by some of the things I have been reading. Apparently, according to Scientific American, Science News, Time magazine and others, recent discoveries indicate that the

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: That it rewrote the Torah with the issuing of a document scholars think is the precursor to the modern Deuteronomy (which was later finished by Ezra after the Exile), is also part of this strange and complex historical soup. Deuteronomy

RE: [ZION] Archaeology breakthrough--dramatic transitional forms

2002-11-06 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Jim Cobabe favored us with: Jim what sources do you use to keep abreast of this kind of news? --- Only the most reputable peer-reviewed science journals. (Of course!) ;- Could you share a title or two with me? Or is this some kind of proprietary secret? --JWR

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Dan R Allen
Mark: If the walls of Jericho did not fall as described in the Bible, then in what way were the covenant people successful? If the Red Sea did not part then in what way can we say that God's power is great and that He led the Israelites? In what way can it be said how willing and capable God

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: ...one sees echoes of that ancient emnity in the NT). For us LDS this is a step backwards and in a way represents an excising of a plain and precious truth. After all, as we'll all soon be learning about in GD The 13th chapter of 1

Re: [ZION] Global Warming

2002-11-06 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: I'd be interested in knowing which one it is, as it's my understanding that all inland North American glaciers are shrinking. Naturally there could be an exception to this, such as coastal glaciers.

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-06 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: Do any of you believe that the Islamist goal is not just to get Israel out of the west bank but also to take over the entire world? I do. The goal of Islam, like the goal of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to convert the

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Dan R Allen favored us with: The tumbling of the walls of Jericho can be seen the same way; it doesn't particularly matter whether they fell as described, or the Israelites pushed them down after conquering the city. The fact is that Jericho was conquered by the Israelites

Re: [ZION] Global Warming

2002-11-06 Thread Jon Spencer
I can assure you that if it were not for the DNC and the Sierra Club, not to mention Greenpeace, that glacier would be shrinking so fast your home would be beachfront property. However, now that the Reps have the Senate, say goodbye to that glacier. Noj JWR wrote: We have a glacier up here in

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-06 Thread Jon Spencer
Who objected to Marc's obvious statement? The Taliban was put in power by people in Pakistan. This is a real Duh!. By the way, are you advocating that we attack Pakistan first, and THEN Iraq? I have a better idea. First, we'll attack Israel - that will completely fool the fake Islamists and

Re: [ZION] Supreme Court: Boy Scouts

2002-11-06 Thread Jon Spencer
Very old news. But if 5-4 switches to 4-5, we are ready with Duty to God. Jon Sandy Rabinowitz wrote: I think this is recent news, but I'm not sure. I didn't see this reported on any of the usual news sites that I read through. It appears the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of the

Re: [ZION] Antigravity

2002-11-06 Thread Jon Spencer
I have supreme confidence that the Lord knows what He is doing. I also feel confident that He is happy that we are trying to understand it. As long as I have been studying science, the assumption that physical laws are constant across time and space has always been held to be tenuous, subject to

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-06 Thread Jon Spencer
That has always been their goal, just as it is our goal. It's the means that are important. There are many good Moslems who want to take over the world just as we do (start buildin' them thar fonts). Then there are the rest. We do need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the

Re: [ZION] Antigravity

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
There's gravity, and then there's gravitational force. They are not the same -- that's why other forces, such as inertia, centrifugal force (which is really another term for gravitational force) are considered to be constant. In physics, gravity is the curvature of space caused by the presence of

Re: [ZION] Archaeology breakthrough--dramatic transitional forms

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
As I mentioned in my response, sometimes, if the finds are considered newsworthy enough, they'll make it to at least the popular science press, if not to the general media. An example from Scientific American:

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-06 Thread Stacy Smith
Who says we should attack anybody? Stacy. At 08:35 PM 11/06/2002 -0500, you wrote: Who objected to Marc's obvious statement? The Taliban was put in power by people in Pakistan. This is a real Duh!. By the way, are you advocating that we attack Pakistan first, and THEN Iraq? I have a better

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-06 Thread Jon Spencer
I figured that if I added the France option, people would get the what I thought to be obvious facetiousness, given John's well stated objection to any preemptive strikes. (Of course, I don't think that they are preemptive, but reasonable people can disagree; thus John and I can CLEARLY

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-06 Thread Stacy Smith
I am in contact with a former Muslim American. I have also been in contact with another former Muslim from Turkey and present Muslims. Like you I once believed that was the goal of all Muslims--to take over countries by the sword. I no longer believe this. I also believe that when it

RE: [ZION] Archaeology breakthrough--dramatic transitional forms

2002-11-06 Thread Jim Cobabe
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- Could you share a title or two with me? Or is this some kind of proprietary secret? --JWR --- Nature is the science journal I read most often, but my own interests are pretty whimsical and far-ranging. --- Mij Ebaboc

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I Nephi 13 says that the brass plates were *not* the same as what we would call the OT, actually. Furthermore, it says that the GBC in the days following Christ removed plain and precious parts from the *Gospel*, not the Pentateuch. By the time we get to verse 29 it does also include the OT, but

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Dan R Allen favored us with: The tumbling of the walls of Jericho can be seen the same way; it doesn't particularly matter whether they fell as described, or the Israelites pushed them down after conquering the city. The fact is that Jericho was

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Cute, but it doesn't say anything. We've been explicitly told that there are all kinds of things we don't know, that haven't been revealed to us yet. John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: It's not that the history isn't important, but to get the real

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
My original point was to ask why the US was so obsessed with Iraq when Pakistan presents a greater danger. And there's more to it than saying they were put into power by the people of Pakistan. It was the Pakistani government plus extremist clerics, using US taxpayer dollars, who put the Taliban

Re: [ZION] Global Warming

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Thanks -- as I suspected, that's a coastal glacier. You'll probably have seen my post by now about this. John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: I'd be interested in knowing which one it is, as it's my understanding that all inland North American

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-06 Thread Jon Spencer
Oh boy! An exciting day to turn the tables! I did not say people of Pakistan. Rather, I said people in Pakistan, not thinking it necessary to offer a long and boring recital of what we all already know. When you say it was the Pakistani gov't with US money who put the Taliban in place, you

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-06 Thread Stacy Smith
If the Taliban are coming back, why are we moving on? Stacy. At 06:20 AM 11/06/2002 -0900, you wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-06 Thread Jon Spencer
They are in Pakistan, not Afghanistan. And by the way, as W said, this will take a long time. Afghanistan will not be converted overnight from a hellhole to a place of peace and tranquility. However, I look forward to the day when we can send missionaries there. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: If

[ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel

2002-11-06 Thread Gary Smith
Yes, we are. We at least must prove them sufficiently to ourselves in order for us to accept them. What is one plus one? The majority will say two. Why? Because we accept the theorem, based upon evidence that it works for us. Do you and I believe in the BoM? Yes. Why? Because we have tested it

[ZION] Gethsemane

2002-11-06 Thread Gary Smith
Another thought on Gethsemane. Most Christians believe Christ prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane. However, there is evidence that he may have actually done it in the Cave of Gethsemane. On the Mount of Olives, in Gethsemane is a winepress in a cave. During the oil pressing season it is very busy

[ZION] antigravity

2002-11-06 Thread Gary Smith
It is also called the cosmological constant that Einstein came up with, then later considered his biggest error. It was discovered recently when we found out that the universe is not only still expanding, but it is expanding at an increasing speed. Previously, it was believed to be expanding at

[ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Gary Smith
Originally it was written by Moses. However, we do not know how many iterations it has gone through since then. How often was it translated and retranslated by Jewish scribes. Which version was found by Josiah's people in the temple? There were different versions of ancient writings, depending on

[ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

2002-11-06 Thread Gary Smith
And I believe the literalism of the BoM and most of the Bible, also. However, I also realize there are mistakes in the Bible that even GAs have admitted to. This means we accept the stories to be true, as best as we can understand them. Yet we realize that the record is not perfect, and the day

[ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

2002-11-06 Thread Gary Smith
John, The difference is that we have many GAs who have told us that portions of the Bible ARE symbolic. That leaves the Bible's historicity at least partially in question. Meanwhile, they have all told us that the BoM is literal. Signaturi don't want to believe that any scripture is historically

[ZION] sealed portion

2002-11-06 Thread Gary Smith
Wow! So I take it Marc, that you've also had a peek at the sealed portion of the BoM??? K'aya K'ama, Garyihah I'm famous, you pukes! Smithgszion1 @juno.com http://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann

[ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Gary Smith
Matter is not empty. Recently it was discovered that Einstein was right concerning the cosmological constant that maintains the universe spreading out at an ever increasing speed. This means there is an invisible force that acts on all matter. I think LDS would call this the Light of Christ, which

Re: [ZION] sealed portion

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
No, but we know they're there, and that because they're sealed, that we don't have them. Therefore it's automatically part of the redaction question. It implies to me that some day we *will* have them, which of course will mean that our current BoM is not the same as what will some day be our BoM.

Re: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Gary Smith wrote: John, The difference is that we have many GAs who have told us that portions of the Bible ARE symbolic. That leaves the Bible's historicity at least partially in question. Meanwhile, they have all told us that the BoM is literal. Signaturi don't want to believe that any

Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel

2002-11-06 Thread Stacy Smith
What are we to do if our talents are being hindered? Stacy. At 07:58 PM 11/05/2002 -0700, you wrote: This is true. Each has their own challenges, opportunities, talents, gifts and assignments in life. This is what I get from what Paul says in I Corinthians 13. YOUR challenge and MY challenge

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I appreciate your correction of my misreading, and you are right. There is no old Pakistani government. It's not a democracy, but has always been controlled by the military, even when civilian leaders are in power. And I was clear to point out that it was a Cold War event -- that's my point.

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Stacy Smith
If a testimony is only based on how often the Lord can get me to follow Him, then I could be in trouble not because of God but because of my stubborn will. How do I know I'm not at fault? My testimony never alone rests on my puny experience. Stacy. At 05:50 PM 11/05/2002 -0600, you wrote:

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler
There was, in the most recent conference, a reference to the Pentateuch (although not by that name) as being by Moses, or written according to what had been passed down to him, so we already know that the Bible wasn't inerrant and hasn't come to us as originally revealed by God -- that's pretty

Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-06 Thread Stacy Smith
The thing that gets me is this: If we're all of a sudden so concerned about Saddam's nuclear and biological weapons abilities, why weren't we as concerned in 1992? Stacy. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Stacy Smith
I've read some of the higher criticism and don't really appreciate or like it. Stacy. At 10:51 PM 11/06/2002 -0700, you wrote: There was, in the most recent conference, a reference to the Pentateuch (although not by that name) as being by Moses, or written according to what had been passed

Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

2002-11-06 Thread Stacy Smith
My point still holds even if they are no longer in Afghanistan. Why are we moving on? Stacy. At 09:30 PM 11/06/2002 -0700, you wrote: My original point was to ask why the US was so obsessed with Iraq when Pakistan presents a greater danger. And there's more to it than saying they were put

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

2002-11-06 Thread Stacy Smith
On a lighter side of discussion, just for fun and humor I took my little electronic device to the bishop one day and told him I had the gold plates for the triple combination and promptly showed him my electronic computer wherein was displayed one line of my triple combination. It was meant to