We have a glacier up here in Alaska that is growing every year. I don't
recall the name of it, but I know that not all glaciers are shrinking
around the world. --JWR
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
///
http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html
It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban
will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a war against Iraq
when the Taliban is coming to power in a nation that already has nuclear
weapons is a
John W. Redelfs wrote:
---
Jim what sources do you use to keep abreast of this kind of news?
---
Only the most reputable peer-reviewed science journals. (Of course!)
;-
---
Mij Ebaboc
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please
I think this is recent news, but I'm not sure. I
didn't see this reported on any of the usual news
sites that I read through.
It appears the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of
the Boy Scouts on the question of whether or not the
organization must be compelled to accept a leader
who
I got the following this AM from Tony Pinto, a former
coworker of mine who got called into active duty from
the Reserves. FYI./Sandy/
--- Begin quoted message ---
Some of the things I miss:
1. Family
2. Friends
3. Cold Beer
4. Cold Milk
5. A real shower
6A. A toilet that is less than
- Is it more important that the walls of Jericho fell as described, or
that the people of the covenant were successful as long as they followed
Him?
If the walls of Jericho did not fall as described in the Bible, then in what way were
the covenant people successful? If the Red Sea did
Providing authoratative interpretation of the scriptures is one of the
explict roles of prophets, seers, and revelators who lead the Lord's
people. Followers of academics, apologists, revisionists, agnostics,
and assorted fruits and nuts, will be sadly misled.
---
Mij Ebaboc
What Brigham Young had to say about the symbolic story of Jericho:
If we are the people of God, we are to be the richest people on the
earth, and these riches are to be held in God, not in the devil. God
tells us how we may accomplish this, as plainly and as surely as he told
Joshua and the
A nice, in-depth commentary by Dr. Claude Cohen-Matlofsky on the
provenance and genuineness of the James Ossuary, from this morning's
Globe and Mail:
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021106/COOSSUARY/Comment/comment/comment_temp/1/1/3/
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce
Gary Smith wrote:
And I think that Marc and I would agree. The point we are making, is we
need to be careful not to go too far in the other direction, either. We
are not like the evangelist Christian movements out there who are literal
Biblicists. We realize that the Bible is not perfect
John W. Redelfs wrote:
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
This is a misrepresentation. Those who deny the historicity of the Book of
Mormon
deny that it was the record of an ancient people, but rather that it was a
result
of Joseph Smith's creativity. This is a lot
This is precisely the way science works. It is a good study. Note, too, that he
found evidence of global warming in other areas. We know that our own Arctic is
warming up, as is the boreal forest, where I live. This is having a number of
results -- eventually everything will settle into a new
I'd be interested in knowing which one it is, as it's my understanding that all
inland North American glaciers are shrinking. Naturally there could be an
exception to this, such as coastal glaciers. There's another possible
explanation, too, an ironic one:
And since I'm in a prognisticating mood, I'll further predict that the spark that
will ignite that particular region (Pakistan) will be Kashmir. Right now al-Qaeda
appears to be most active in Yemen, but I think eventually we'll hear more about
their activities in Kashmir. The problem in Pakistan
Two of the best-known examples are Nature and Science:
http://www.nature.com/evoeco/ (personal registration required to view ToC, and
subscription to read articles) Nature is based in the UK.
http://www.sciencemag.org/ (also requires registration and subscription to read
articles) This is put
He had even stronger language about Bible stories in some discourses. Note though
that the lesson Pres. Young gets out of this isn't that a physical act led to
faith, but that the telling of the story, and the reading of the story, is the
act of faith -- this is what I get out of his likening it
-Original Message-
From: Marc A. Schindler
Subject: Re: [ZION] Antarctic Warming
This is precisely the way science works.
Or doesn't work! What will the next study show? And the one after that?
One is tempted to observe after a lifetime of encounters with scientific
I think your list contains false choices. For an explanation of the difference
between secular and sacred histories, I suggest:
http://www.members.shaw.ca/kschindler/frye_1.htm
Your questions seem to me to proceed from the false assumption that narrative
accounts are to be read in the same manner
Sorry to reply to my own post, but I should add, too, that Hebrews 11 goes on to show
that it is through faith that the actions of the ancients are well-attested. We
accept the stories on faith, not on historicity, because they tell us something
essential, and that something transcends actual
Have you seen any season reversals in the last few years? I don't think I
have seen actual complete reversals--maybe something for a day or two.
Stacy.
At 01:04 PM 11/06/2002 -0600, you wrote:
We have a glacier up here in Alaska that is growing every year. I don't
recall the name of it, but
Tom Matkin wrote:
-Original Message-
From: Marc A. Schindler
Subject: Re: [ZION] Antarctic Warming
This is precisely the way science works.
Or doesn't work!
You want results, I fear, that science can't provide. Science is forever
tentative is a well-known saying in science.
Dan, put another way, the difference between us and Biblicists is that they
believe the Bible to *be* the word of God in an existential, substantive, an und
für sich (in and of itself) sense, whereas we believe it is a *record* of the
word of God, to be preached from, and interpreted by prophets.
I have been doing a massive search on the multiple Ebsco full-text
databases on the term antigravity. And I have been amazed by some of the
things I have been reading. Apparently, according to Scientific American,
Science News, Time magazine and others, recent discoveries indicate that
the
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
That it rewrote the Torah with the issuing of a document scholars think is
the precursor to the modern Deuteronomy (which was later finished by Ezra
after the Exile), is also part of this strange and complex historical soup.
Deuteronomy
After much pondering, Jim Cobabe favored us with:
Jim what sources do you use to keep abreast of this kind of news?
---
Only the most reputable peer-reviewed science journals. (Of course!)
;-
Could you share a title or two with me? Or is this some kind of
proprietary secret? --JWR
Mark:
If the walls of Jericho did not fall as described in the Bible, then in
what way were the covenant people successful? If the Red Sea did not part
then in what way can we say that God's power is great and that He led the
Israelites? In what way can it be said how willing and capable God
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
...one sees echoes of that ancient emnity in the NT). For us LDS this is a
step backwards and in a way represents an excising of a plain and
precious truth. After all, as we'll
all soon be learning about in GD
The 13th chapter of 1
After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with:
Do any of you believe that the Islamist goal is not just to get Israel out
of the west bank but also to take over the entire world?
I do. The goal of Islam, like the goal of the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints is to convert the
After much pondering, Dan R Allen favored us with:
The tumbling of the walls of Jericho can be seen the same way; it doesn't
particularly matter whether they fell as described, or the Israelites
pushed them down after conquering the city. The fact is that Jericho was
conquered by the Israelites
I can assure you that if it were not for the DNC and the Sierra Club, not to
mention Greenpeace, that glacier would be shrinking so fast your home would
be beachfront property. However, now that the Reps have the Senate, say
goodbye to that glacier.
Noj
JWR wrote:
We have a glacier up here in
Who objected to Marc's obvious statement? The Taliban was put in power by
people in Pakistan.
This is a real Duh!. By the way, are you advocating that we attack
Pakistan first, and THEN Iraq? I have a better idea. First, we'll attack
Israel - that will completely fool the fake Islamists and
Very old news. But if 5-4 switches to 4-5, we are ready with Duty to God.
Jon
Sandy Rabinowitz wrote:
I think this is recent news, but I'm not sure. I
didn't see this reported on any of the usual news
sites that I read through.
It appears the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of
the
I have supreme confidence that the Lord knows what He is doing. I also feel
confident that He is happy that we are trying to understand it. As long as
I have been studying science, the assumption that physical laws are constant
across time and space has always been held to be tenuous, subject to
That has always been their goal, just as it is our goal. It's the means
that are important. There are many good Moslems who want to take over the
world just as we do (start buildin' them thar fonts). Then there are the
rest.
We do need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the
There's gravity, and then there's gravitational force. They are not the same --
that's why other forces, such as inertia, centrifugal force (which is really
another term for gravitational force) are considered to be constant. In physics,
gravity is the curvature of space caused by the presence of
As I mentioned in my response, sometimes, if the finds are considered newsworthy
enough, they'll make it to at least the popular science press, if not to the
general media. An example from Scientific American:
Who says we should attack anybody?
Stacy.
At 08:35 PM 11/06/2002 -0500, you wrote:
Who objected to Marc's obvious statement? The Taliban was put in power by
people in Pakistan.
This is a real Duh!. By the way, are you advocating that we attack
Pakistan first, and THEN Iraq? I have a better
I figured that if I added the France option, people would get the what I
thought to be obvious facetiousness, given John's well stated objection to
any preemptive strikes. (Of course, I don't think that they are preemptive,
but reasonable people can disagree; thus John and I can CLEARLY
I am in contact with a former Muslim American. I have also been in contact
with another former Muslim from Turkey and present Muslims. Like you I
once believed that was the goal of all Muslims--to take over countries by
the sword. I no longer believe this. I also believe that when it
I Nephi 13 says that the brass plates were *not* the same as what we would call
the OT, actually. Furthermore, it says that the GBC in the days following Christ
removed plain and precious parts from the *Gospel*, not the Pentateuch. By the
time we get to verse 29 it does also include the OT, but
John W. Redelfs wrote:
After much pondering, Dan R Allen favored us with:
The tumbling of the walls of Jericho can be seen the same way; it doesn't
particularly matter whether they fell as described, or the Israelites
pushed them down after conquering the city. The fact is that Jericho was
Cute, but it doesn't say anything. We've been explicitly told that there are all
kinds of things we don't know, that haven't been revealed to us yet.
John W. Redelfs wrote:
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
It's not that the history isn't important, but to get the real
My original point was to ask why the US was so obsessed with Iraq when Pakistan
presents a greater danger. And there's more to it than saying they were put into
power by the people of Pakistan. It was the Pakistani government plus extremist
clerics, using US taxpayer dollars, who put the Taliban
Thanks -- as I suspected, that's a coastal glacier. You'll probably have seen my
post by now about this.
John W. Redelfs wrote:
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
I'd be interested in knowing which one it is, as it's my understanding
that all
inland North American
Oh boy! An exciting day to turn the tables! I did not say people of
Pakistan. Rather, I said people in Pakistan, not thinking it necessary
to offer a long and boring recital of what we all already know.
When you say it was the Pakistani gov't with US money who put the Taliban in
place, you
If the Taliban are coming back, why are we moving on?
Stacy.
At 06:20 AM 11/06/2002 -0900, you wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html
It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban
will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a
They are in Pakistan, not Afghanistan. And by the way, as W said, this will
take a long time. Afghanistan will not be converted overnight from a
hellhole to a place of peace and tranquility. However, I look forward to
the day when we can send missionaries there.
Jon
Stacy Smith wrote:
If
Yes, we are. We at least must prove them sufficiently to ourselves in
order for us to accept them.
What is one plus one? The majority will say two. Why? Because we
accept the theorem, based upon evidence that it works for us. Do you and
I believe in the BoM? Yes. Why? Because we have tested it
Another thought on Gethsemane. Most Christians believe Christ prayed in
the Garden of Gethsemane. However, there is evidence that he may have
actually done it in the Cave of Gethsemane. On the Mount of Olives, in
Gethsemane is a winepress in a cave. During the oil pressing season it is
very busy
It is also called the cosmological constant that Einstein came up with,
then later considered his biggest error.
It was discovered recently when we found out that the universe is not
only still expanding, but it is expanding at an increasing speed.
Previously, it was believed to be expanding at
Originally it was written by Moses. However, we do not know how many
iterations it has gone through since then. How often was it translated
and retranslated by Jewish scribes. Which version was found by Josiah's
people in the temple?
There were different versions of ancient writings, depending on
John,
The difference is that we have many GAs who have told us that portions of
the Bible ARE symbolic. That leaves the Bible's historicity at least
partially in question. Meanwhile, they have all told us that the BoM is
literal. Signaturi don't want to believe that any scripture is
historically
Matter is not empty. Recently it was discovered that Einstein was right
concerning the cosmological constant that maintains the universe
spreading out at an ever increasing speed. This means there is an
invisible force that acts on all matter. I think LDS would call this the
Light of Christ, which
Gary Smith wrote:
John,
The difference is that we have many GAs who have told us that portions of
the Bible ARE symbolic. That leaves the Bible's historicity at least
partially in question. Meanwhile, they have all told us that the BoM is
literal. Signaturi don't want to believe that any
What are we to do if our talents are being hindered?
Stacy.
At 07:58 PM 11/05/2002 -0700, you wrote:
This is true. Each has their own challenges, opportunities, talents, gifts and
assignments in life. This is what I get from what Paul says in I
Corinthians 13.
YOUR challenge and MY challenge
I appreciate your correction of my misreading, and you are right.
There is no old Pakistani government. It's not a democracy, but has always been
controlled by the military, even when civilian leaders are in power. And I was
clear to point out that it was a Cold War event -- that's my point.
If a testimony is only based on how often the Lord can get me to follow
Him, then I could be in trouble not because of God but because of my
stubborn will. How do I know I'm not at fault? My testimony never alone
rests on my puny experience.
Stacy.
At 05:50 PM 11/05/2002 -0600, you wrote:
There was, in the most recent conference, a reference to the Pentateuch (although
not by that name) as being by Moses, or written according to what had been passed
down to him, so we already know that the Bible wasn't inerrant and hasn't come to
us as originally revealed by God -- that's pretty
The thing that gets me is this: If we're all of a sudden so concerned
about Saddam's nuclear and biological weapons abilities, why weren't we as
concerned in 1992?
Stacy.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at
My point still holds even if they are no longer in Afghanistan. Why are we
moving on?
Stacy.
At 09:30 PM 11/06/2002 -0700, you wrote:
My original point was to ask why the US was so obsessed with Iraq when
Pakistan
presents a greater danger. And there's more to it than saying they were
put
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