Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
Andrew Sawyers wrote at 2006-6-27 22:03 -0400: > ... >Nearly everyone uses Google to find >anything they care about anyhow. I use Google because its search is faster than the one on "zope.org" *BUT* I restrict it with "site:zope.org". Otherwise, I get a few hundred thousand hits more. Sure, they probably contain what I am looking for -- but it takes me a while until I find it... That's one of my major interests to get a single site rather than one splintered across the world. -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On 6/28/06, Chris McDonough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: He meant "use an Apache rewrite rule", I think. Oh. My excuses in that case. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On Jun 28, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote: On 6/28/06, Andrew Sawyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: point. Write the 'Zope product' management software and expose it as a service - put it on the site. [...] No one said bag the collectors. Rewrite http://www.zope.org/ Collectors/ to collectors.zope.org and that's done. No "writing" is gonna happen, and should not happen, becuse the writing takes time and the resulting software needs to be updated, bugfixes enhanced and managed, and that aint gonna happen. Your comments ignore the previous experiences with www.zope.org. He meant "use an Apache rewrite rule", I think. - C ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On 6/28/06, Andrew Sawyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: point. Write the 'Zope product' management software and expose it as a service - put it on the site. [...] No one said bag the collectors. Rewrite http://www.zope.org/Collectors/ to collectors.zope.org and that's done. No "writing" is gonna happen, and should not happen, becuse the writing takes time and the resulting software needs to be updated, bugfixes enhanced and managed, and that aint gonna happen. Your comments ignore the previous experiences with www.zope.org. Are you volunteering to do those two things in the next week? No, because I have a job during weeks. However, say next month or two instead, then, if somebody gives me the computer and internet connection to host it on, yes I can do this. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 09:50 +0200, Lennart Regebro wrote: > On 6/27/06, John Schinnerer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This is a basic principle of design that works (as opposed to design > > that fails to work). > > Start small and work the edges outwards. > > The "work edges outwards" that works is often modular in nature (perhaps > > a.k.a. 'micro-sites'). > > That doesn't mean it can't look-and-feel like "one big site as access > > point." > > > > Biting off more than one (person, organization, whatever) can chew > > usually results in choking... > > Exactly my points. > > > So I actually see a lot of agreement in what may appear to be argument. > > Well, the proposal is to start only with the accesspoint (and the > origonal proposal did not contain anything else than the access point, > and also proposed it to be interim, for some reason). This is not true Lennart. I'm not going to keep arguing with you; but I think it was clear from what I originally sent this is not as you describe it. Of course, I wrote it - and maybe I'm thinking more to myself about what I mean then saying it. > We can't start > with only the accesspoint, as we would have no product listing and ... I wonder how all the other successful projects out there manage to not have an arbitrary products listing managed in their sites. PHP, JAVA, RoR, Python, ad nauseum. I just don't see how it's the sole stopping point. Write the 'Zope product' management software and expose it as a service - put it on the site. Nearly everyone uses Google to find anything they care about anyhow. No one said bag the collectors. Rewrite http://www.zope.org/Collectors/ to collectors.zope.org and that's done. > no collector other than at old.zope.org, which would be completely > bizarre. We have to start, as a minimum, with creating a > products.zope.org and a collector.zope.org (or maybe rather > bugs.zope.org) before we can replace www.zope.org. > None of this is hard to do. It should be doable in a couple of days worth of > work, in > any case less than a week. Are you volunteering to do those two things in the next week? If so, then maybe we can move forward if the foundation has interest. Andrew ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
Chris Withers wrote: David H wrote: This is sounding more bizzare with each day and it doesnt feel good. Zope cant maintain a friggin web site? Isnt that rich. Hey David, Cool, thanks so much for volunteering to provide all the resources, coders and support staff to look after a 10,000 user site with all the problems that entails. Oh? What's that? You weren't volunteering? Then stfu ;-) Chris LOL yeah ok. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
David H wrote: This is sounding more bizzare with each day and it doesnt feel good. Zope cant maintain a friggin web site? Isnt that rich. Hey David, Cool, thanks so much for volunteering to provide all the resources, coders and support staff to look after a 10,000 user site with all the problems that entails. Oh? What's that? You weren't volunteering? Then stfu ;-) Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On 6/27/06, John Schinnerer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: This is a basic principle of design that works (as opposed to design that fails to work). Start small and work the edges outwards. The "work edges outwards" that works is often modular in nature (perhaps a.k.a. 'micro-sites'). That doesn't mean it can't look-and-feel like "one big site as access point." Biting off more than one (person, organization, whatever) can chew usually results in choking... Exactly my points. So I actually see a lot of agreement in what may appear to be argument. Well, the proposal is to start only with the accesspoint (and the origonal proposal did not contain anything else than the access point, and also proposed it to be interim, for some reason). We can't start with only the accesspoint, as we would have no product listing and no collector other than at old.zope.org, which would be completely bizarre. We have to start, as a minimum, with creating a products.zope.org and a collector.zope.org (or maybe rather bugs.zope.org) before we can replace www.zope.org. None of this is hard to do. It should be doable in a couple of days worth of work, in any case less than a week. I agree that despite the wonders of zope, the zope.org site is not as stunning a place to refer people to as it could be. For the most general public face of the site, I support the idea of a clear and simple "brochure-like" approach. Exactly. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
Aloha, ... >> I start to understand: >> >> You want to have a narrow, a focused site >> because you fear that a bigger one cannot be managed. >> >> In such a case, I would say: start with the small solution >> and maybe get bigger later. This is a basic principle of design that works (as opposed to design that fails to work). Start small and work the edges outwards. The "work edges outwards" that works is often modular in nature (perhaps a.k.a. 'micro-sites'). That doesn't mean it can't look-and-feel like "one big site as access point." Biting off more than one (person, organization, whatever) can chew usually results in choking... So I actually see a lot of agreement in what may appear to be argument. Also: I agree that despite the wonders of zope, the zope.org site is not as stunning a place to refer people to as it could be. For the most general public face of the site, I support the idea of a clear and simple "brochure-like" approach. A couple major open source project/product sites that I am excited about referring people to: http://rubyonrails.org http://www.mozilla.com ...and to some extent http://www.openoffice.org ...although IMO the OO site is not quite as clear and well-designed as the other two...better than zope.org though. Also bearing in mind that the Ruby On Rails site is for a development platform while Mozilla and OO are end-user app sites - somwhat different audiences. cheers, John S. -- John Schinnerer - MA, Whole Systems Design -- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://eco-living.net ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
Lennart Regebro wrote: On 6/26/06, Dieter Maurer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I would prefer a single big site as an access point to the most relevant information. But, if this is not possible... Single big site is probably not possible. We have tried and failed. But having a small focused site that works as the nave and center of several small focused site, that should be possible. Sorry Lennart but ... This is sounding more bizzare with each day and it doesnt feel good. Zope cant maintain a friggin web site? Isnt that rich. David ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On 6/26/06, Dieter Maurer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I would prefer a single big site as an access point to the most relevant information. But, if this is not possible... Single big site is probably not possible. We have tried and failed. But having a small focused site that works as the nave and center of several small focused site, that should be possible. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
Andrew Sawyers wrote at 2006-6-25 17:54 -0400: > ... >Well, I think the content of this site is what I'd noted is what I noted >in earlier emails. It might not be 'interesting', but I would hope it >to be quality and focused. I have faith the 'interesting' aspects you >wish will come from the community. I start to understand: You want to have a narrow, a focused site because you fear that a bigger one cannot be managed. In such a case, I would say: start with the small solution and maybe get bigger later. However, in my view the Zope (and Python) world is very splintered. Unlike for example Perl (with its "cpan") the information and products are spread around the world and not easy to locate. I would prefer a single big site as an access point to the most relevant information. But, if this is not possible... -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On 6/26/06, Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ah well, this meta-ranting is much quicker and easier... Hehe. :) I would like to point out a minor conflict between two of your meta-rants: I'd add the caveat that it needs to be stable maintainable software that isn't going to cause the problems the current zope.org software has, even though it was the "latest and greatest" when it was introduced. Righto! *insert plohn rant here* Well, kinda righto again. But... the products part of plone org seems to work and seems to be reasonably stable and maintainable. I think we should set up a products.zope.org with that software, and let people move the products pages over from www.zope.org and the retire the products part of www.zope.org. We could do this pretty much now, and it would enhance *.zope.org quite a lot. Not much work, lots of result. :) But yes, that means using Plone. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
Andrew Sawyers wrote: It then came to technology. Some cared some didn't. I personally didn't if the result was something which the community could be proud of and not make excuses for as they directed people to the site. I'd add the caveat that it needs to be stable maintainable software that isn't going to cause the problems the current zope.org software has, even though it was the "latest and greatest" when it was introduced. has offered resources to accomplish this to finally happen. They currently have taken the artistic work done by Tom Von Lahndorff Yay! Tom's stuff rocked! A group of people in the (Plone) community have volunteered their time and resources to put together an improved, **interim** zope.org site. Meh, so that'll be interim for the next 5 to 10 years, right? ;-) * The zope.org site will be set up with the same software that runs plone.org. *insert plohn rant here* PloneSoftwareCenter for software distribution. For bug tracking, either links to the existing ZC trackers or a Trac installation. *insert Trac rant here* * plone.org and zope.org software updates will be done at the same time and by the same people. The more similar the code/products are, the simpler it will be to update them in parallel. *insert "snowball's chance in helL" rant here* * zope.org will be hosted outside of ZC's servers. I believe Bas has lined up a suitable box similar to the one that runs plone.org (dual P4-class processors, lots of memory). Um, no. I'd much prefer to see it stay as part of ZC's cluster of managed machines... I feel great comfort that knowing the infrastructure zope.org runs on form part of a setup that can handle 4000 requests/second if we really needed it to ;-) See http://new.zope.nl for an initial a mock-up. The existing concept of membership for uploading bit-rot content will be retired. *insert but-that's-what-zope.org-isfor rant here* * The zope.org site should acknowledge contributors in a overt fashion. "Zope Rock Stars" who have risen up above the call of duty, God I hate these "rock star" phrases... Ah well, this meta-ranting is much quicker and easier... Honestly, if it works, and its fast and stable and has bug trackers on it, and I can download Zope and CMF from it, I'm happy... I can't stump up time to work on anything, so I know I forfeit my right to complain, and will just have to watch nervously from the sidelines... cheers, Chris - what? so this is, like, omgnyazop? ;-) -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
Andrew Sawyers wrote: On Sun, 2006-06-25 at 21:41 +0200, Dieter Maurer wrote: Then I fear few interesting content will arrive at this site. Well, I think the content of this site is what I'd noted is what I noted in earlier emails. It might not be 'interesting', but I would hope it to be quality and focused. I have faith the 'interesting' aspects you wish will come from the community. We use Plone.org's infrastructure. When I remember right, we have membership there and this membership contributes a good deal of valuable content (software, howtos, faqs). We have failed at managing the breadth of content and properly presenting it to potential and exisitng Zope users. Maybe that sub-community has not. Why should it be different for Zope.org? Because it has not shown it can rise to the occasion. Outside our community this might not be so obvious, but referring new co-workers to zope.org when they inquire as to the technology I bring to the table at work, is an embarrassment. I think my position is pretty clear. It's up to the Foundation ultimately. I was asked to get the proposal out. I've provided my view. The rest will become history. :) Andrew Everyone has a point. Zope is WAY too cool not to have a great web presence. But we need a TEAM LEADER on this. I can pitch in and I know others will as well ... David ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On Sun, 2006-06-25 at 21:41 +0200, Dieter Maurer wrote: > > Then I fear few interesting content will arrive at this site. > Well, I think the content of this site is what I'd noted is what I noted in earlier emails. It might not be 'interesting', but I would hope it to be quality and focused. I have faith the 'interesting' aspects you wish will come from the community. > We use Plone.org's infrastructure. When I remember right, > we have membership there and this membership contributes > a good deal of valuable content (software, howtos, faqs). We have failed at managing the breadth of content and properly presenting it to potential and exisitng Zope users. Maybe that sub-community has not. > > Why should it be different for Zope.org? Because it has not shown it can rise to the occasion. Outside our community this might not be so obvious, but referring new co-workers to zope.org when they inquire as to the technology I bring to the table at work, is an embarrassment. I think my position is pretty clear. It's up to the Foundation ultimately. I was asked to get the proposal out. I've provided my view. The rest will become history. :) Andrew > > > ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On 6/25/06, Dieter Maurer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: But it's quite a bit more difficult when the content comes from independent microsites on different servers. Maybe, but that is without a doubt a small issue compared with the big issues microsites will solve. As I understood we have one adminstrator. Are you sure he want to administer not one but several Zope installations? No. I do not want one person a manging everything. :-) -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
Lennart Regebro wrote at 2006-6-24 22:14 +0200:
> ...
>> This way, you would have an integrating site ("zope.org")
>> which would be able to provide integrationg services, e.g.
>> a search where you are interested in a concept and
>> happy to find hits in faq, wiki, product,...
>
>That can be done anyway.
But it's quite a bit more difficult when the content comes
from independent microsites on different servers.
As I understood we have one adminstrator.
Are you sure he want to administer not one but several
Zope installations?
--
Dieter
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Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
Andrew Sawyers wrote at 2006-6-24 16:23 -0400: > ... >> >* The existing >> > concept of membership for uploading bit-rot content will be retired. >> >> This means what? >There would be VERY limited things an individual could upload. I >personally argued strongly for 0 membership on this site. If the ideas >of micro sites went forward, the appropriate micro sites could allow (or >not) membership as necessary. Then I fear few interesting content will arrive at this site. We use Plone.org's infrastructure. When I remember right, we have membership there and this membership contributes a good deal of valuable content (software, howtos, faqs). Why should it be different for Zope.org? -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
Hi, this is my first post to the list. I wanted to add two existing sites, which also (in part) fill some of the products gap: zopewiki.org, which has a products index (functional equivalent to zope.org's, with some stale entries, I think) and planetzope.org with news and regular product reviews. --knitti ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On 6/25/06, Andrew Sawyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'd beg to differ. A community such as what PHP has built didn't work this way. They managed this very successfully. We have not. I think the problem is you want to wait until the complete city is built before you think you can open select stores for business. It is absolutely and completely exactly the other way around. Yes, I seem to think this. You seem to think it needs to continue to be centrally managed., which has been a proven failure IMNSHO. Again, this exactly and absolutely the other way around. I appreciate you saying that - but again, I beg to differ. What you propose is to continue to have the current status quo. No. In my answer to your proposal, I wrote exactly what I porpose. I think you should read it and return with your comments after that. The things you claim here to be my point of view is the direct opposite of what I wrote there. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On Sun, 2006-06-25 at 08:38 +0200, Lennart Regebro wrote: > > OK; I see what you mean now. You ant to create the www.zope.org that > works as the main entrance and integratoor of the microsites. The > proble is that you wnat to do that BEFORE the microsites exist, which > is backwards. I'd beg to differ. A community such as what PHP has built didn't work this way. They managed this very successfully. We have not. I think the problem is you want to wait until the complete city is built before you think you can open select stores for business. So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on approach. > > Also, you seem to think that the microsites can be run by whoever > under whatever domainname. That doesn't work. We can't have our main > product site disappear because the guy who managed it got tired or > forget to pay his internet provider bill. And it looks bad if the > community is a hodgepodge of domains and URLs. Yes, I seem to think this. You seem to think it needs to continue to be centrally managed., which has been a proven failure IMNSHO. If you're concerned about domains are easily managed. It's called a CNAME. You seem to presume the worst case. I'm more of a capitalist in regards to what I'd expect to happen here. Empower the community and acknowledge them, and they will do what is necessary. We've seen the success of a group trying to centrally manage the entire breadth of zope.org. As far as I know, the community has been empowered to do things to improve the state and condition of the zope.org arena for quite a long time. Nothing has happened substantially. What has happened though, is community areas have popped up to fill the failing area on zope.org because it was easier for them and they cared to do something. Promoting this IS the right way, IMNSHO. Rewarding this, is the right way INMNSHO. Wishing it is going to happen out of ether is questionable, just because the foundation is now formed. I'd love to be wrong, but unless people had so much contempt for Zope Corp directly that they refused to do anything on these fronts for that reason alone, I don't see how this situation magically changes. Prove me wrong. > > I say that you repost this proposal when we have some community sites > to integrate. :-) I appreciate you saying that - but again, I beg to differ. What you propose is to continue to have the current status quo. I and others are proposing to force the move. Guess I could wait to move into my new house because the carpets and hardwood floors aren't laid yet - or I could move in and make due. I prefer the later. I think we have the community sites. We have docs on plope.com (but I'd prefer those to actually live on zope.org). We have zopelabs.com, we have zwikis.org IIRC, there is a great site D2M has been doing work on, and there are several others which have great content. None of which push their content back to zope.org - but can, and can be used to fulfill our immediate needs. The only community site which is yet to step up is a product site. No one is saying bag products on zope.org the day after. Do something - there's plenty who have and are waiting to do more. Don't squash that. Andrew ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
--On 25. Juni 2006 08:32:54 +0200 Lennart Regebro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 6/24/06, Andrew Sawyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: There would be VERY limited things an individual could upload. I personally argued strongly for 0 membership on this site. If the ideas of micro sites went forward, the appropriate micro sites could allow (or not) membership as necessary. [...] > Who will decides which content is worth migration? For the site I refer to, only that which meets the scope of the site. -MAXINT from me. You are trying to make a top run "managed" site. I think that is wrong for a collaborative software project by principle, and it also means that ZF will have to pay sometbdy to create content on the site, which to me seems to be a complete waste of money, when reasonably the community members should do that themselves. I second the proposal to work with micro sites. A decoupled number of micro sites have the advantage to be less dependent on all other components which results in a better manageability. In addition the migration to micro sites can be done as ppl have resources. Ripping out a particular part of zope.org (e.g. the collectors). would not much interfere with the existing site. -aj pgpTIU8TwZ9qG.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On 6/24/06, Andrew Sawyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I agree - just change from microsite to 'communuty supported site' and I wouldn't find any reason to argue this personally. :) ... I'd like to see some other site write this software and feed it to www.zope.org via rss or some Ajax implementation the designers come up with. The limited content placed directly on zope.org should be that noted herein and other emails IMNSHO. ... The can - to that site the community steps up with or to sourceforge. No need for it to be on the www.zope.org. I of course prefer it if someone in the community did it, so they could feed data to zope.org for display. It's about integration in my opinion - not about consolidation. OK; I see what you mean now. You ant to create the www.zope.org that works as the main entrance and integratoor of the microsites. The proble is that you wnat to do that BEFORE the microsites exist, which is backwards. Also, you seem to think that the microsites can be run by whoever under whatever domainname. That doesn't work. We can't have our main product site disappear because the guy who managed it got tired or forget to pay his internet provider bill. And it looks bad if the community is a hodgepodge of domains and URLs. I say that you repost this proposal when we have some community sites to integrate. :-) -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On 6/24/06, Andrew Sawyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: There would be VERY limited things an individual could upload. I personally argued strongly for 0 membership on this site. If the ideas of micro sites went forward, the appropriate micro sites could allow (or not) membership as necessary. [...] > Who will decides which content is worth migration? For the site I refer to, only that which meets the scope of the site. -MAXINT from me. You are trying to make a top run "managed" site. I think that is wrong for a collaborative software project by principle, and it also means that ZF will have to pay sometbdy to create content on the site, which to me seems to be a complete waste of money, when reasonably the community members should do that themselves. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On Sat, 2006-06-24 at 10:58 +0200, Lennart Regebro wrote: > We have already made a new www.zope.org once. That was an ambitious > project, which potential did not become fully realized. We need to > take with us the experiences of that. > Trust me, many of us do. Jens and I spent many many hours on the predecessor to www.zope.org which got canned. Thus, I think it's imperative to limit the scope and focus of www.zope.org to that which I noted. Superior documentation, Product releases from svn.zope.org and Marketing. > And this is mainly: > > 1. We do NOT want a new www.zope.org. Oh, you may not be 'WE' do. Some of us make up the 'WE'. We want it. No need to argue this point. > We want MANY new > "something".zope.org. We should have a products.zope.org, and a > collector.zope.org, and a faq.zope.org, and a wiki.zope.org, and > blablabla. I agree, to some degree - where we may disagree is who 'manages' and runs them. I would like to see the community step up and create those sites as it interests them. > www.zope.org would be an hyping site, where we hype zope, and referr > people to the other "microsites". <-- Community Sites I agree - just change from microsite to 'communuty supported site' and I wouldn't find any reason to argue this personally. :) > I'm very much less concerned about what software we actually have. > It's a minor issue in this, although of course, not writing software > from scratch unless you have too seems to be a good idea. The > important thing is that we do not try to build a big monolithic site > that does everything again, because then this will for the third time > stall and slowly die. Agreed, thus note the focus and scope items of the proposal - they are key to the success IMNSHO. > > > * zope.org will have a paid sysadmin. Bas van der Linden of > > Amaze has volunteered the services of Wichert Akkerman, > > the very talented sysadmin who currently administers > > plone.org. > > Well, this is of course completely up to the foundation board. It's > probably a good idea, it's just a matter of judging the benefit and > the cost. ;-) This paid sysadmin has been volunteered already and is being paid for by Ras van der Linden - suppose if the foundation doesn't want to accept that gracious offer, they could decline his offer. > > > * Volunteers from the Zope community will be responsible for the > > site's content. The current mock-up uses a skin designed > > by Tom Von Lahndorff. I imagine that the initial text and > > information architecture will come from the svn repository > > of content that Andrew Sawyers and others have been working on. > > See http://new.zope.nl for an initial a mock-up. The existing > > concept of membership for uploading bit-rot content will be retired. > > No I don't follow you. Surely product information and news will be > uploaded and created by members? And surely that means some of it > sooner or later will rot? I'd like to see some other site write this software and feed it to www.zope.org via rss or some Ajax implementation the designers come up with. The limited content placed directly on zope.org should be that noted herein and other emails IMNSHO. > > > * Existing community content on zope.org will NOT be migrated. > > The content will be made available on ZC's existing server > > via URL rewriting (to keep existing links from breaking) or > > by moving everything to an old.zope.org domain. > > The old site can be moved to a old.zope.org as soon as there is a > products.zope.org and collector.zope org and news.zope.org up. > > > The best > > content will be migrated by hand to PloneHelpCenter / > > PloneSoftwareCenter products. > > I see no reason why product developers can't be "held responsible" for > migrating their own products. Products that then are not migrated can > be seen as abandoned and will go away when old.zope.org goes away. The can - to that site the community steps up with or to sourceforge. No need for it to be on the www.zope.org. I of course prefer it if someone in the community did it, so they could feed data to zope.org for display. It's about integration in my opinion - not about consolidation. > > > * The zope.org site should acknowledge contributors in a overt fashion. > > "Zope Rock Stars" who have risen up above the call of duty, > > contributors, etc should be noted. The Foundation can determine how to > > implement this, but those paying for and providing services should > > receive acknowledgment. > > Yeah, good idea! A must in my opinion. > Andrew ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On Sat, 2006-06-24 at 20:13 +0200, Dieter Maurer wrote: > Andrew Sawyers wrote at 2006-6-23 18:15 -0400: > > ... > > For bug > > tracking, either links to the existing ZC trackers or > > a Trac installation. > > If you move to "Trac" *PLEASE* migrate the current issues. > > It is very discouraging to loose all the bug reports > and patches (as happened when a former collector site crashed). Of course, if that were to happen, there would have to be a migration. Agreed. > > > ... > >Content > >--- > > > >* The existing > > concept of membership for uploading bit-rot content will be retired. > > This means what? There would be VERY limited things an individual could upload. I personally argued strongly for 0 membership on this site. If the ideas of micro sites went forward, the appropriate micro sites could allow (or not) membership as necessary. > > Some of the current content might not be very valuable but > there are also great pieces of software! Devil's in the details. I would presume all software could be retained in some manner forever. ?? I'd personally like to see a community member step up and write a kick ass Zope software site - dedicated to community software packages. If that didn't happen, maybe we can migrate software packages to sourceforge if the 'owners' are MIA? > > >* Existing community content on zope.org will NOT be migrated. > > The content will be made available on ZC's existing server > > via URL rewriting (to keep existing links from breaking) or > > by moving everything to an old.zope.org domain. The best > > content will be migrated by hand to PloneHelpCenter / > > PloneSoftwareCenter products. > > Who will decides which content is worth migration? For the site I refer to, only that which meets the scope of the site. Again, I'd love to see community members step up for the areas which are necessary for supporting things which Lennart refers to. I personally don't think those sites need to be official Zope (Foundation). I think Zope Labs is an excellent site which fills some of this niche. A Zope Foundation site should not compete where the community excells already in my opinion. I don't disagree with Lennart, just possibly who 'runs' it. Andrew > > > > ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
On 6/24/06, Dieter Maurer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
In what way would this differ from "zope.org/{collector,faq,wiki,...}"?
Well, for one, it´s simpler to set up, and does not rely one one
single point of failure (and apache that does the rewriting) to each
separate server. Secondly, what I'm discussing here is the principle
of independent sites that run on independent servers and can be
managed independantly, and upgraded independantly, and extended with
new microsites independantly.
If they are called zope.org/XXX or XXX.zope.org is a minor issue in
that case, although I definitely preferr the last one fo the reasons
above.
This way, you would have an integrating site ("zope.org")
which would be able to provide integrationg services, e.g.
a search where you are interested in a concept and
happy to find hits in faq, wiki, product,...
That can be done anyway.
--
Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/
CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
Lennart Regebro wrote at 2006-6-24 10:58 +0200:
> ...
>1. We do NOT want a new www.zope.org. We want MANY new
>"something".zope.org. We should have a products.zope.org, and a
>collector.zope.org, and a faq.zope.org, and a wiki.zope.org, and
>blablabla.
In what way would this differ from "zope.org/{collector,faq,wiki,...}"?
This way, you would have an integrating site ("zope.org")
which would be able to provide integrationg services, e.g.
a search where you are interested in a concept and
happy to find hits in faq, wiki, product,...
--
Dieter
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Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
Andrew Sawyers wrote at 2006-6-23 18:15 -0400: > ... > For bug > tracking, either links to the existing ZC trackers or > a Trac installation. If you move to "Trac" *PLEASE* migrate the current issues. It is very discouraging to loose all the bug reports and patches (as happened when a former collector site crashed). > ... >Content >--- > >* The existing > concept of membership for uploading bit-rot content will be retired. This means what? Some of the current content might not be very valuable but there are also great pieces of software! >* Existing community content on zope.org will NOT be migrated. > The content will be made available on ZC's existing server > via URL rewriting (to keep existing links from breaking) or > by moving everything to an old.zope.org domain. The best > content will be migrated by hand to PloneHelpCenter / > PloneSoftwareCenter products. Who will decides which content is worth migration? -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 24 Jun 2006, at 00:15, Andrew Sawyers wrote: A group of people in the (Plone) community have volunteered their time and resources to put together an improved, **interim** zope.org site. We understand that work is underway on a longer-term zope.org solution -- the current initiative is not intended to replace this longer-term work; rather, the goal is to improve upon the existing zope.org site until something better is put together. "Famous last words" I'd say ;) Seeing the length time that has passed from the first idle discussions about a new zope.org till Geoff's *concrete* proposal (thank you Geoff!), I would think if Geoff and everyone else who volunteers as part of this proposal go through with it, it'll be there to stay for a while ;) Which brings up my main point: The hardest part about sites like these is not the technology or decisions about what content to show and what to allow. The hardest part is to get volunteers of the "consistent" kind as opposed to the "here now, gone tomorrow" kind. I believe the most successful sites are those that require least active maintenance, not just from the technical side but from the content side as well. Out of the current ideas I like the "micro site" plan best. It's much easier to update software on one of those, and problems with one micro site won't affect anything else. IMHO www.zope.org should be a pure "brochure site" with no membership at all and a dedicated small group of people who maintain it. It should contain stuff like... - - "official" Zope documentation (yes, some of that isn't even there yet) - - Zope downloads and maybe downloads for other items from svn.zope.org (CMF etc) - - Businessy stuff like examples of sites using Zope, maybe even case studies - - Links to other resources, with those other microsites right at the top. jens -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFEnQQ+RAx5nvEhZLIRAgAYAKCj99nnVyeo28p8ceWb/VXMQibVwwCfTd6R Hq1/lIDHPzfNK7CkJVtkJGI= =dLgZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
I would like to take this opprotunity to repeat myself. I know this is boring but I feel it is important. :-) We have already made a new www.zope.org once. That was an ambitious project, which potential did not become fully realized. We need to take with us the experiences of that. And this is mainly: 1. We do NOT want a new www.zope.org. We want MANY new "something".zope.org. We should have a products.zope.org, and a collector.zope.org, and a faq.zope.org, and a wiki.zope.org, and blablabla. Because if we do that, each site becomes a nice handful of managebility that can be improved and replaced separately from the others. www.zope.org would be an hyping site, where we hype zope, and referr people to the other "microsites". * The zope.org site will be set up with the same software that runs plone.org. The sites will have different skins, of course, and will be configured a bit differently, but the underlying software will be the same. I'm very much less concerned about what software we actually have. It's a minor issue in this, although of course, not writing software from scratch unless you have too seems to be a good idea. The important thing is that we do not try to build a big monolithic site that does everything again, because then this will for the third time stall and slowly die. site management authentication, PloneHelpCenter for documentation docs.zope.org. :) tracking, either links to the existing ZC trackers or a Trac installation. Right. * zope.org will have a paid sysadmin. Bas van der Linden of Amaze has volunteered the services of Wichert Akkerman, the very talented sysadmin who currently administers plone.org. Well, this is of course completely up to the foundation board. It's probably a good idea, it's just a matter of judging the benefit and the cost. ;-) * Volunteers from the Zope community will be responsible for the site's content. The current mock-up uses a skin designed by Tom Von Lahndorff. I imagine that the initial text and information architecture will come from the svn repository of content that Andrew Sawyers and others have been working on. See http://new.zope.nl for an initial a mock-up. The existing concept of membership for uploading bit-rot content will be retired. No I don't follow you. Surely product information and news will be uploaded and created by members? And surely that means some of it sooner or later will rot? * Existing community content on zope.org will NOT be migrated. The content will be made available on ZC's existing server via URL rewriting (to keep existing links from breaking) or by moving everything to an old.zope.org domain. The old site can be moved to a old.zope.org as soon as there is a products.zope.org and collector.zope org and news.zope.org up. The best content will be migrated by hand to PloneHelpCenter / PloneSoftwareCenter products. I see no reason why product developers can't be "held responsible" for migrating their own products. Products that then are not migrated can be seen as abandoned and will go away when old.zope.org goes away. * The zope.org site should acknowledge contributors in a overt fashion. "Zope Rock Stars" who have risen up above the call of duty, contributors, etc should be noted. The Foundation can determine how to implement this, but those paying for and providing services should receive acknowledgment. Yeah, good idea! -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
Aloha, As an occasional user of the zope.org site I'll present my typical use case, as that's what matters most to me... :-D I go there normally for one of two reasons: 1) to slog through available products to see if I can find something to suit a development need I have 2) to slog through HowTos and documentation and tips and the like to try and solve some issue I can't figure out or learn how to do something I'm trying to do first time or differently etc. On the one hand, there is a lot of completely and nearly obsolete content that turns up in both these cases, thus my use of the word "slog"... On the other hand, I do sometimes find just what I need somewhere in all of what's there...and it's not usually easy. And, sometimes, it's somewhere in all that "bit-rot" that will no longer be supported...so I guess there will be less cruft and, hopefully, not too much less useful information in the new site? What I would really appreciate on a new zope.org site would be an improved search functionality. Something that lets me filter out all but certain types of objects would be great. If I'm searching for a product, I only want to see hits on relevant product objects or directly related objects that will clearly point me to a product (like a product review, if there is to be such a thing)...likewise for HowTos, etc. etcinstead of as now where I get back all kinds of objects that happen to be hit by my search string even when most of them are irrelevant types of objects. And thanks to everyone working on making a new site happen! cheers, John S. -- John Schinnerer - MA, Whole Systems Design -- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://eco-living.net ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Improved Zope Org Proposal
Sorry for the cross-post; lets but wanted to make sure those on the zope-web list saw this. Lets keep this on the zope list going forward. For sometime, we have tried to coordinate various numbers of people in the community to get an improved Zope.org up and functional. Some of this improvement was through the 'visual' look and feel of the site and the other was by cleaning up what has been often thought as unmaintainable code as well as reducing the content scope of Zope.org. During this time, it was largely agreed that the zope.org site would highlight ZOPE the technology, Documentation, the products found in the Zope Code Repository, and highlight the community, to offload features which people had previously relied on zope.org for in the past. The current zope.org site would remain available for some time while a (tedious) and manual migration of content deemed beneficial would be placed on the new site. To the best of my knowledge, this is still agreed on by all those who over the months participated in countless #zope-web irc chats and discussions on the mailing lists. It then came to technology. Some cared some didn't. I personally didn't if the result was something which the community could be proud of and not make excuses for as they directed people to the site. This caused some stalling of the momentum. We had many ideas, some text which is in svn at codespeak, and artisitic work being done. Geoff Davis contacted me with a proposal which would get this move started and has offered resources to accomplish this to finally happen. They currently have taken the artistic work done by Tom Von Lahndorff and put it online at http://new.zope.nl for preview. I'd like to forward Geoff's proposal to the list, now that the Zope Foundation is setup to act on this generous offer by members of the community. I'd like to see this get blessed so we can move forward and finally get a site which has a focused scope and is something the community can be proud of. I have done some minor editorial changes to reflect discussions back and forth since the initial offering. A group of people in the (Plone) community have volunteered their time and resources to put together an improved, **interim** zope.org site. We understand that work is underway on a longer-term zope.org solution -- the current initiative is not intended to replace this longer-term work; rather, the goal is to improve upon the existing zope.org site until something better is put together. I am appending a sketch of the vision and would like very much to hear your feedback. Geoff Maintenance and Administration -- A number of people have expressed concerns about the maintenance of zope.org going forward. We share those concerns! A central goal in setting this site up is to make maintenance as painless as possible. Toward that end, we envision doing the following: * The zope.org site will be set up with the same software that runs plone.org. The sites will have different skins, of course, and will be configured a bit differently, but the underlying software will be the same. * The products on the site will all be off-the-shelf products that have an active community of developers. The current likely candidates: PlonePAS + LDAP for site management authentication, PloneHelpCenter for documentation, and PloneSoftwareCenter for software distribution. For bug tracking, either links to the existing ZC trackers or a Trac installation. * plone.org and zope.org software updates will be done at the same time and by the same people. The more similar the code/products are, the simpler it will be to update them in parallel. The Plone community will manage upgrades of the off-the- shelf code. However, if people decide to customize the code on the zope.org site, those people will then be responsible for ensuring its continued functionality during upgrades. This should be discouraged without valid requirements someone is willing to 'pay' for, either with $ or labor. * zope.org will have a paid sysadmin. Bas van der Linden of Amaze has volunteered the services of Wichert Akkerman, the very talented sysadmin who currently administers plone.org. * zope.org will be hosted outside of ZC's servers. I believe Bas has lined up a suitable box similar to the one that runs plone.org (dual P4-class processors, lots of memory). Content --- * Volunteers from the Zope community will be responsible for the site's content. The current mock-up uses a skin designed by Tom Von Lahndorff. I imagine that the initial text and information architecture will come from the svn repository of content that Andrew Sawyers and others have been working on. See http://new.zope.nl for an initial a mock-up. The existing concept of membership for uploading bit-rot content will be retired. * Existing community content on zope.org will NOT be migrated. The content
