************* The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] ************
Martin,
Re: your posts of Dennis' quotes: Are Dennis' quotes ( teachings or viewpoint) the be all and end all on the subject? First you have to use reason and ask is it true? If so, how true? Does it solve all the problems of the subject? How well does it solve them, if it solves them? Is it absolute and complete? The same question has to be asked of Hubbard's viewpoints and any one else's on any subject? The truth is not determined by authority. That means, that the truth is not determined because someone said so. The truth is also not determined by who wins an argument or by or via beliefs or opinions... The value of a datum is determined by how many problems it solves, and how well it solves them. David > Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:07:11 +0200 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [TROM1] Perpetrators and victims and responsibility. > > ************* > The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] > ************ > Hi Pete, > > I agree with your point of view: > > Responsible could be looked at as "response - able" > > I found two TROM excerpts relating to the discussion on responsibility: > > 1. Blaming others: > "This is the dwindling spiral of ability of the being in the universe. ( > After the loss of a game considered serious, the loser’s only recourse > is to blame the victor for overwhelming him. Thus, blame is the > assignment of responsibility for the outcome of a game, with an implied > wrongness." > > And > 2. Denying responsibility. > "Responsibility is the willingness to assume causation. A being can > assume causation for anything. The only liability to assuming causation > is to run the being out of games. The only liability to not assuming > causation is to give the being a surfeit of games. Thus, as games become > progressively more compulsive, the willingness to assume causation > (responsibility) is seen to lessen. Unwillingness to assume causation is > thus a measure of the compulsiveness to play games in a being." > > Martin > > On 24 June 2012 02:45, Pete Mclaughlin wrote: > > ************* > > The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] > > ************ > > Hi Martin > > i agree. Some people consider themselves victims and some do not. > > > > The question is "is the loser in a game " responsible for his condition > > because he put himself in a game that he has now lost; or was he not > > playing any game and someone came along and smacked him so the loser was > > made the effect of a game that he had zero idea that he was involved in or > > playing. > > > > i take the position that the loser always has chosen to play a game and > > therefor has put himself at risk of losing. > > > > example, i am walking along minding my own business when an asteroid slams > > into the earth right on top of me. i chose to live this life time at this > > time when there was a very small chance of an asteroid hit so i am a victim > > of the asteroid because i chose to live here now. > > > > second exampe. i chose to live this life at this time as an American. > > America is running an empire that acquires great wealth by stealing it from > > the rest of the world. i therefor am playing the game of american citizen > > benefiting from this theft and by the other flow other people who are not > > amerian are looking for ways to get even or steal from america and > > americans. there is a very real chance that i will become the victim in > > this game as were the people in the Twin Towers in 2001. if so it is my > > fault for playing this very dangerous game. > > > > finally i take this point of view because i can only change what "I" do. i > > can make sure that i pay people what i have agreed to pay and thus ensure > > that i am not playing a "to steal" game. I can not join the military to > > avoid playing the game "do what we say or we'll will murder you". i can > > audit all the games where i blame others for mistreating me. blame is a sad > > game and i don't want to be on the recieving end of it. i also do not want > > to give anyone the power to hurt me which is the founding principle of the > > blame game. > > > > For these reasons i hold that i am the captain of my soul, i am the master > > of my fate and i will find out what i am doing that undermines this > > principle and correct it. > > > > > > Sincerely > > Pete > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On Jun 23, 2012, at 1:06 PM, Martin Foster<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> ************* > >> The following message is relayed to you by [email protected] > >> ************ > >> On 23 June 2012 01:48, Pete Mclaughlin wrote: > >> > >>> I can't speak for all other trommers or scientologists since i haven't > >>> polled them on their individual views. > >>> > >>> How do you feel about victims. Are they responsible for their state or > >>> blameless? > >>> > >>> > >> Hi Pete, > >> > >> I think one should look at "victims" in terms of occurrence. > >> > >> The term "Victim" used disparagingly means someone who is using his status > >> to obtain sympathy and reward. > >> > >> In "WAR" we have victors and vanquished. In lesser games we speak of > >> winners and losers. > >> > >> BUT the vanquished or losers do not necessarily see themselves as "victims" > >> > >> They only become "victims" when they assume that identity. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Trom mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Trom mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2437/5089 - Release Date: 06/23/12 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Trom mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
_______________________________________________ Trom mailing list [email protected] http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
