My own personal frustration comes from people not willing to accept that 
anything good can possibly come from religion. I don't feel that I need to 
defend or answer for everything religion has done.

I apologize for bringing the subject here. What my real frustration was was due 
to the fact that this was a forum which, as I said, had a portion designated 
for religious discussions and it was dominated by anti-religious sentiment. 

I truly believe that many of the issues that are facing our world - the death 
of the environment, unrestricted greed - are caused by rampant materialism, in 
both the sense of money and in the sense of denying the spiritual. I think we 
need more, not less spiritual input in our world, and anything remotely 
spiritual seems to be struck down.

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain <healthypl...@...> wrote:
>
> Gentlemen, :)
>  
> Wait~~ don't get me into this discussion, as it is now "I" who has lost the 
> thread.  I was merely trying to point out to DP that debating on-line with 
> people who attack him or hurt his feelings seems pointless to me, and making 
> a different choice to disengage and move on might be more productive.  I see 
> now that it was a waste of my time as he has brought the issue to this 
> forum.  I will take my own advice and  move on.  I have no problem 
> accepting both atheists  and those who practice faith-based religions.  I 
> don't think atheists are ignorant of faith.  That was not my point. My point 
> was-- and is-- perhaps people of faith are guided by something other than 
> "facts", whereas atheists can, and often do debate religion from an 
> analytical  or logic perspective.  You can't prove or dis-prove faith, so 
> why try? I'm of the boring  "Can't we all just along" school"  Silly me.. 
>  
> Kristy
> 
> 
> --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: mike brown <uerusub...@...>
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> church.
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:18 AM
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DP,
>  
> Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you, huh. 
> Let me spell it out for you one more time. To paraphrase Kristy -  she said 
> that atheists are ignorant of faith and so don't understand the religious 
> perspective. I pointed out that 1) lots of atheists were once upon a time 
> believers who have now 'seen the light' and so do have such experience but 
> rejected it. 2) I may be ignorant of the beliefs of other groups but still 
> can deduce that they are harmful. NOT that religious folks are the same as 
> neo-nazis but the harm that can be DONE is the same. Clear?
>  
> Mike  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: DP <wookielife...@...>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 1:03:36
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
> 
>   
> 
> My god, that is disingenuous...
> 
> Kristy specifically said that the people who are arguing probably don't have 
> an experience of faith and that this means I can't explain it to them.
> 
> You essentially said "I don't have to be a Neo-Nazi to understand that it's 
> bad." 
> 
> It doesn't take a paranoid person to see a comparison being made. 
> You are using your own personal definition of religion to attack. This is not 
> my experience of religion, and it never will be.
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> >
> > DP,
> >  
> > I wrote: "Moreover, I am ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have 
> > no 
> > trouble rejecting their beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong."
> > 
> > You wrote: "You were essentially implying that religious belief was no 
> > different 
> > from being a "neo-nazi." I'm sorry, but I do find that offensive."
> >  
> > That wasn't my intention in the above sentence. I could just as easily have 
> > said 
> > I am ignorant of being a racist/Republican/terrorist/bigot/child-molester 
> > etc to 
> > make the point. If you see the connection with those and religion, well...
> >  
> > Mike  
> >
>




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