Re: moving Kubuntu to a new drive
Here's how I do such stuff: Partition the new disk however you want. Boot from a live disk (e.g. - an Ubuntu installation DoK) Mount both old and new, and copy everything over. I usually use "cd old ; tar cf - . | tar -C /new xvf -". Shut down machine, remove old disk, boot up with Ubuntu Dok again Mount the new drive somewhere, and do the following commands: mount --bind /dev /new/dev chroot /new mount none /sys -t sysfs mount proc /proc -t proc Update /etc/fstab and /etc/crypttab in case they have ID based mounts, as the partition IDs have now changed install-grub /dev/sda (or nvme0n1, whatever) (probably not necessary, but just to be on the safe side): mkinitrd (need to look up precise command line) Unmount everything and reboot, and you should be golden. Shachar On 01/05/2019 7:29, Shlomo Solomon wrote: The subject says it all. But a few more details. My 1Tb drive is about to die and I'm moving to a new 3Tb drive. The drive (/dev/sda) includes 5 partitions - / , /home , /boot/efi , /data , swap. Most of the bad blocks seem to be in the /data partition. Needless to say, I have good backups of everything on an external drive. There are many ways to do this and I'm not looking for instructions, but "opinions" about what would be most efficient. I've considered a few options - but each seem to have advantages and dis-advantages: 1 - A fresh install and then update configurations and copy whatever else I need from the old drive or from my backup drive. (Advantage - get rid of old junk, Dis-advantage - seems like a lot of work) 2 - dd - and then, of course enlarge the partitions and/or add new partitions to use the added 2Tb. (Advantage - safe, Dis-advantage - there are many bad blocks on the old drive so ...) 3 - ddrescue (Advantage - may be better at handling the bad blocks, Dis-advantage - how safe is this?) 4 - Clonezilla (I never used this so I don't know) I'm assuming that after solutions #2, #3 and #4 I would only need to switch the sda cable so the new drive would become /dev/sda and of course edit fstab to correct all the UUID= lines. I'd like to hear opinions about which of these solutions (or any other solution) is best. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: moving Kubuntu to a new drive
On Wednesday, 1 May 2019 7:29:37 IDT Shlomo Solomon wrote: > The subject says it all. But a few more details. My 1Tb drive is > about to die and I'm moving to a new 3Tb drive. The drive > (/dev/sda) includes 5 partitions - / , /home , /boot/efi , /data , > swap. Most of the bad blocks seem to be in the /data partition. > Needless to say, I have good backups of everything on an external > drive. > > There are many ways to do this and I'm not looking for instructions, > but "opinions" about what would be most efficient. I've considered a > few options - but each seem to have advantages and dis-advantages: > > 1 - A fresh install and then update configurations and copy whatever > else I need from the old drive or from my backup drive. (Advantage - get > rid of old junk, Dis-advantage - seems like a lot of work) > > 2 - dd - and then, of course enlarge the partitions and/or add new > partitions to use the added 2Tb. (Advantage - safe, Dis-advantage - > there are many bad blocks on the old drive so ...) Opinon Against DDing into a new disk, I had done that and apperntly that shorten the life of some SSDs (dd on disk level and not partiton level). In addition - I also had witnessed several (HDD) disks die when they had been connected over SATA to USB. beware of the cheap adaptors. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: moving Kubuntu to a new drive
Hi, My 2c... Stop using the bad HDD ASAP. Verify you have all your data from your backups first. If you are missing data from the backups, restore from the bad HDD first. This restoration is best left for professionals or a long read-up on ddrescue or there like. You will be advised to go for a fast grab of the most impotent files --via single file or partition acquisition, depending on circumstances, flowed by an obnoxious reread of failing blocks. Once you have verified you have all the data, you can choose: 1. Do a fresh system install and backup restore. It should be the fastest solution. If you have prepared a Bash or Ansible script, or at least an application list, it is a sure bet. Even if not, it may be faster then copying bit by bit the hole file system, but this depends... 2. Go for copping from the bad HDD. As cp, dd or CloneZillaing will fail on bad block reads, and you know you have them, go with ddrescue full oldHDD to newHDD. First a "quick run" get all good block fast. Second retry on bad blocks hopefully you can get it all out. If you are missing a few blocks you can go figure out what files used them, or forget abut them and diff important directories with the backups. You can ddrescue partitions but as the swap is small 'compared' I would go the full disk to disk. HTH, :-) ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: moving Kubuntu to a new drive
Hi, If a fresh install is an option - it's probably the best one, (depending on the extra work it may present ). (imo) . If I must clone, I'd use clonezilla, and have used it extensively, for the most part, I've had good results for both personal or production use. As for dd - unless you've had experience cloning drives with it, I'd do some practice runs on other hardware, before taking a shot with the critical one. Good luck :) Guy On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 1:14 AM Geoffrey Mendelson wrote: > > I tried clonzilla to move an lvm partitioned disk to a new one. it used > various forms of dd copying. > The copy went sucessfully, but it did not boot. Fsck failed with hundreds if > not thousands of bad files, duplicate inodes, etc. > In the end I just did a fresh install from the original distribution with no > updates and no lvm, It booted properly, I rebooted from the install media, > and then I copied using rsync all of the files off the old drive onto the > new. i ran grub just to be sure. > > Worked fine. > > Geoff > > Jerusalem, Israel > On May 1, 2019, 7:30 AM +0300, Shlomo Solomon , > wrote: > > The subject says it all. But a few more details. My 1Tb drive is > about to die and I'm moving to a new 3Tb drive. The drive > (/dev/sda) includes 5 partitions - / , /home , /boot/efi , /data , > swap. Most of the bad blocks seem to be in the /data partition. > Needless to say, I have good backups of everything on an external > drive. > > There are many ways to do this and I'm not looking for instructions, > but "opinions" about what would be most efficient. I've considered a > few options - but each seem to have advantages and dis-advantages: > > 1 - A fresh install and then update configurations and copy whatever > else I need from the old drive or from my backup drive. (Advantage - get > rid of old junk, Dis-advantage - seems like a lot of work) > > 2 - dd - and then, of course enlarge the partitions and/or add new > partitions to use the added 2Tb. (Advantage - safe, Dis-advantage - > there are many bad blocks on the old drive so ...) > > 3 - ddrescue (Advantage - may be better at handling the bad > blocks, Dis-advantage - how safe is this?) > > 4 - Clonezilla (I never used this so I don't know) > > I'm assuming that after solutions #2, #3 and #4 I would only need > to switch the sda cable so the new drive would become /dev/sda and > of course edit fstab to correct all the UUID= lines. > > > I'd like to hear opinions about which of these solutions (or any other > solution) is best. > > > > -- > Shlomo Solomon > http://the-solomons.net > Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04 > > ___ > Linux-il mailing list > Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il > > ___ > Linux-il mailing list > Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- Guy Gold ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: moving Kubuntu to a new drive
I tried clonzilla to move an lvm partitioned disk to a new one. it used various forms of dd copying. The copy went sucessfully, but it did not boot. Fsck failed with hundreds if not thousands of bad files, duplicate inodes, etc. In the end I just did a fresh install from the original distribution with no updates and no lvm, It booted properly, I rebooted from the install media, and then I copied using rsync all of the files off the old drive onto the new. i ran grub just to be sure. Worked fine. Geoff Jerusalem, Israel On May 1, 2019, 7:30 AM +0300, Shlomo Solomon , wrote: > The subject says it all. But a few more details. My 1Tb drive is > about to die and I'm moving to a new 3Tb drive. The drive > (/dev/sda) includes 5 partitions - / , /home , /boot/efi , /data , > swap. Most of the bad blocks seem to be in the /data partition. > Needless to say, I have good backups of everything on an external > drive. > > There are many ways to do this and I'm not looking for instructions, > but "opinions" about what would be most efficient. I've considered a > few options - but each seem to have advantages and dis-advantages: > > 1 - A fresh install and then update configurations and copy whatever > else I need from the old drive or from my backup drive. (Advantage - get > rid of old junk, Dis-advantage - seems like a lot of work) > > 2 - dd - and then, of course enlarge the partitions and/or add new > partitions to use the added 2Tb. (Advantage - safe, Dis-advantage - > there are many bad blocks on the old drive so ...) > > 3 - ddrescue (Advantage - may be better at handling the bad > blocks, Dis-advantage - how safe is this?) > > 4 - Clonezilla (I never used this so I don't know) > > I'm assuming that after solutions #2, #3 and #4 I would only need > to switch the sda cable so the new drive would become /dev/sda and > of course edit fstab to correct all the UUID= lines. > > > I'd like to hear opinions about which of these solutions (or any other > solution) is best. > > > > -- > Shlomo Solomon > http://the-solomons.net > Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04 > > ___ > Linux-il mailing list > Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving away from cron jobs to some workflow manager
Hi, You could try something like Concourse ( https://concourse-ci.org/ ). It allows you to define a pipeline which is comprised of jobs and the order in which they should be invoked. -- Lior On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Rabin Yasharzadehe wrote: > Hi all, > > I need some advice, currently I have a huge cron file which schedules > tasks one after anther, and each task is position precisely (with some room > for error) to start after it predecessor. > > So if one job start at 00:00 and it will go and fetch some files and it > takes 3minutes > the next job will be after start right after at ~00:05 > and so on > > the problem is that if one job fails, all other jobs which are depend on > him will fail as well, and then I get a shitload of alerts, and the worst > part is that if i have to manually start a batch process I need to go to > each machine and manually start each job in the right order, > > I was looking to resolve this problem with a tool which can manage this > "pipe line" > and I cam across several tools like Luigi and (apache-)AirFlow, I started > with Luigi but It didn't look > right for the job, and then I tried airflow, but was not able to make it > to work, the jobs queue never executed. =( > > Has any one have experience with airflow, or other tool like it which they > can recommend ? > My needs are to be able to execute my CURRENT shell/python/php scripts and > build the dependency between them, and I perfer the option for remote exec > so that I will have central > place to manage and monitor all work flow whichs are executed on several > nodes. > > Thanks in advance, > Rabin > > ___ > Linux-il mailing list > Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il > > ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving away from cron jobs to some workflow manager
On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 09:42:35 +0300 Omer Zak wrote: > For dependency management, you may want to use 'make' or modern Hi Omer, While corresponding with someone offlist, I had another idea maybe as good as using make. I could make a customized installation of the process supervisor part of either the runit or s6 inits, or maybe even use just plain daemontools, to make sure apps don't run until apps upon which they depend have finished. So, for appC that depends on output from appA and appB, then the run script for appC would look something like the following: #!/bin/sh if appAnot_finished; then sleep 60 # prevent excessive polling elif appBnot_finished; then sleep 60 # prevent excessive polling else exec appC fi If every app expresses its immediate prerequisites that way, the whole thing will run very efficiently, and in many cases, in parallel where not prevented by unfinished prerequisites. Some more complexity would need to be added in order that appA and appB don't start again before the entire bucket brigade finishes. SteveT Steve Litt June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving away from cron jobs to some workflow manager
On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 12:25:21 +0300 Dimid Duchovny wrote: > Hi Rabin, > > > I'm far from being a linux expert, but isn't dependency between > services handled by systemd? > E.g. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd/Timers If you drive on that side of the road :-) More seriously, I think you're intermixing these systemd timers and systemd's (sort of) ability to delay running long running daemon B until daemon A, which it depends on, is running. But the OP's needs were much greater. Apparently he couldn't depend on any of consecutively run programs to conclude in a certain amount of time, and if he grants each one a crazy long amount of time, it would exceed 24 hours. What's needed is for each process to provide some clue that it's finished. Assuming its output files are those clues, Omer's right: make could be used to not only do the job, but add some parallellization so that if two processes' input is each complete, those two processes can be run in tandem. It's brilliant. SteveT Steve Litt June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving away from cron jobs to some workflow manager
On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 09:42:35 +0300 Omer Zak wrote: > For dependency management, you may want to use 'make' If you can depend on each task to create specific files, yeah, that sounds like a great idea. I should have thought of it. And then you just put it in a loop so things are always being progressed upon, and alarms to warn if a step takes too long. SteveT Steve Litt June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving away from cron jobs to some workflow manager
I suggest to check Jenkins (as already suggested) and Rundeck. Vitaly On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Rabin Yasharzadehe wrote: > Hi all, > > I need some advice, currently I have a huge cron file which schedules > tasks one after anther, and each task is position precisely (with some room > for error) to start after it predecessor. > > So if one job start at 00:00 and it will go and fetch some files and it > takes 3minutes > the next job will be after start right after at ~00:05 > and so on > > the problem is that if one job fails, all other jobs which are depend on > him will fail as well, and then I get a shitload of alerts, and the worst > part is that if i have to manually start a batch process I need to go to > each machine and manually start each job in the right order, > > I was looking to resolve this problem with a tool which can manage this > "pipe line" > and I cam across several tools like Luigi and (apache-)AirFlow, I started > with Luigi but It didn't look > right for the job, and then I tried airflow, but was not able to make it > to work, the jobs queue never executed. =( > > Has any one have experience with airflow, or other tool like it which they > can recommend ? > My needs are to be able to execute my CURRENT shell/python/php scripts and > build the dependency between them, and I perfer the option for remote exec > so that I will have central > place to manage and monitor all work flow whichs are executed on several > nodes. > > Thanks in advance, > Rabin > > ___ > Linux-il mailing list > Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il > > ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving away from cron jobs to some workflow manager
try GNUbatch On 19/06/2018 09:06, Rabin Yasharzadehe wrote: Hi all, I need some advice, currently I have a huge cron file which schedules tasks one after anther, and each task is position precisely (with some room for error) to start after it predecessor. So if one job start at 00:00 and it will go and fetch some files and it takes 3minutes the next job will be after start right after at ~00:05 and so on the problem is that if one job fails, all other jobs which are depend on him will fail as well, and then I get a shitload of alerts, and the worst part is that if i have to manually start a batch process I need to go to each machine and manually start each job in the right order, I was looking to resolve this problem with a tool which can manage this "pipe line" and I cam across several tools like Luigi and (apache-)AirFlow, I started with Luigi but It didn't look right for the job, and then I tried airflow, but was not able to make it to work, the jobs queue never executed. =( Has any one have experience with airflow, or other tool like it which they can recommend ? My needs are to be able to execute my CURRENT shell/python/php scripts and build the dependency between them, and I perfer the option for remote exec so that I will have central place to manage and monitor all work flow whichs are executed on several nodes. Thanks in advance, Rabin ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- Moish 0546484411 ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving away from cron jobs to some workflow manager
1. Execution time limits:
Ansible has async with polling intervals. I did not research for
methods to kill hung tasks.
https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/latest/user_guide/playbooks_async.html
2. Dashboard-like functionality
According to:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ansible/comments/5ksphc/best_web_gui_for_run_a
nsible_playbooks/
There are the following options:
- ansible-tower
- remote-task-executor (did not look into it)
- nci-ansible-ui
- Jenkins (normally used for CI/CD setups)
In addition to the above, you may want to look into Ansible
alternatives:
- Puppet
- Chef
- SaltStack
A quick Google search yielded:
https://www.intigua.com/blog/puppet-vs.-chef-vs.-ansible-vs.-saltstack
On Tue, 2018-06-19 at 12:32 +0300, Rabin Yasharzadehe wrote:
> systemd is a complete different tool, which was not designed for this
> kinda purpose.
> (maybe in the future it will grow to be something like that ;-) )
>
> I'm looking for something a bit more sophisticated then "go to this
> machine" and "run this script" and "expect this result"
> i like to define execution time limits (finish in 3 minute) and maybe
> some grace time (can go up to 5 minute) and have the orchestrator
> monitor the process and have a nice dashboard where i can see every
> thing from above (this is why Airflow was looked so appealing, but
> the installation process and the documentation are still lagging
> behind).
>
>
> --
> Rabin
>
>
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 at 12:26, Dimid Duchovny
> wrote:
> > Hi Rabin,
> >
> >
> > I'm far from being a linux expert, but isn't dependency between
> > services handled by systemd?
> > E.g. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd/Timers
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > 2018-06-19 12:12 GMT+03:00 Moish :
> > > Try GNUbatch.
> > >
> > >
> > > On June 19, 2018 9:42:35 AM GMT+03:00, Omer Zak
> > > wrote:
> > > > For dependency management, you may want to use 'make' or modern
> > > > equivalents ('ant', 'gradle', etc.).
> > > > For controlling remote nodes, 'ansible' may be able to do the
> > > > work.
> > > >
> > > > --- Omer Zak
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 2018-06-19 at 09:06 +0300, Rabin Yasharzadehe wrote:
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > I need some advice, currently I have a huge cron file which
> > > > > schedules
> > > > > tasks one after anther, and each task is position precisely
> > > > > (with
> > > > > some room for error) to start after it predecessor.
> > > > >
> > > > > So if one job start at 00:00 and it will go and fetch some
> > > > > files and
> > > > > it takes 3minutes
> > > > > the next job will be after start right after at ~00:05
> > > > > and so on
> > > > >
> > > > > the problem is that if one job fails, all other jobs which
> > > > > are depend
> > > > > on him will fail as well, and then I get a shitload of
> > > > > alerts, and
> > > > > the worst part is that if i have to manually start a batch
> > > > > process I
> > > > > need to go to each machine and manually start each job in
> > > > > the right
> > > > > order,
> > > > >
> > > > > I was looking to resolve this problem with a tool which can
> > > > > manage
> > > > > this "pipe line"
> > > > > and I cam across several tools like Luigi and (apache-
> > > > > )AirFlow, I
> > > > > started with Luigi but It didn't look
> > > > > right for the job, and then I tried airflow, but was not
> > > > > able to make
> > > > > it to work, the jobs queue never executed. =(
> > > > >
> > > > > Has any one have experience with airflow, or other tool like
> > > > > it which
> > > > > they can recommend ?
> > > > > My needs are to be able to execute my CURRENT
> > > > > shell/python/php
> > > > > scripts and build the dependency between them, and I perfer
> > > > > the
> > > > > option for remote exec so that I will have central
> > > > > place to manage and monitor all work flow whichs are
> > > > > executed on
> > > > > several nodes.
--
What happens if one mixes together evolution with time travel to the
past? See: https://www.zak.co.il/ideas/stuff/opinions/eng/evol_tm.html
My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/
My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with
which
I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at https://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
___
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Re: Moving away from cron jobs to some workflow manager
Hi Rabin, Did you consider using Jenkins? It may be a little heavyweight, but it should be relatively easy to set up and configure. You can use the same scripts you're using today, the ability to state which jobs run on which nodes, set up dependencies between them, set timeouts, set cron triggers to start the initial job... seems to answer your requirements. -Ari On Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 09:07 Rabin Yasharzadehe wrote: > Hi all, > > I need some advice, currently I have a huge cron file which schedules > tasks one after anther, and each task is position precisely (with some room > for error) to start after it predecessor. > > So if one job start at 00:00 and it will go and fetch some files and it > takes 3minutes > the next job will be after start right after at ~00:05 > and so on > > the problem is that if one job fails, all other jobs which are depend on > him will fail as well, and then I get a shitload of alerts, and the worst > part is that if i have to manually start a batch process I need to go to > each machine and manually start each job in the right order, > > I was looking to resolve this problem with a tool which can manage this > "pipe line" > and I cam across several tools like Luigi and (apache-)AirFlow, I started > with Luigi but It didn't look > right for the job, and then I tried airflow, but was not able to make it > to work, the jobs queue never executed. =( > > Has any one have experience with airflow, or other tool like it which they > can recommend ? > My needs are to be able to execute my CURRENT shell/python/php scripts and > build the dependency between them, and I perfer the option for remote exec > so that I will have central > place to manage and monitor all work flow whichs are executed on several > nodes. > > Thanks in advance, > Rabin > ___ > Linux-il mailing list > Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il > ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving away from cron jobs to some workflow manager
systemd is a complete different tool, which was not designed for this kinda
purpose.
(maybe in the future it will grow to be something like that ;-) )
I'm looking for something a bit more sophisticated then "go to this
machine" and "run this script" and "expect this result"
i like to define execution time limits (finish in 3 minute) and maybe some
grace time (can go up to 5 minute) and have the orchestrator monitor the
process and have a nice dashboard where i can see every thing from above
(this is why Airflow was looked so appealing, but the installation process
and the documentation are still lagging behind).
--
Rabin
On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 at 12:26, Dimid Duchovny wrote:
> Hi Rabin,
>
>
> I'm far from being a linux expert, but isn't dependency between services
> handled by systemd?
> E.g. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd/Timers
>
> HTH
>
> 2018-06-19 12:12 GMT+03:00 Moish :
>
>> Try GNUbatch.
>>
>>
>> On June 19, 2018 9:42:35 AM GMT+03:00, Omer Zak wrote:
>>
>>> For dependency management, you may want to use 'make' or modern
>>> equivalents ('ant', 'gradle', etc.).
>>> For controlling remote nodes, 'ansible' may be able to do the work.
>>>
>>> --- Omer Zak
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 2018-06-19 at 09:06 +0300, Rabin Yasharzadehe wrote:
>>>
Hi all,
I need some advice, currently I have a huge cron file which schedules
tasks one after anther, and each task is position precisely (with
some room for error) to start after it predecessor.
So if one job start at 00:00 and it will go and fetch some files and
it takes 3minutes
the next job will be after start right after at ~00:05
and so on
the problem is that if one job fails, all other jobs which are depend
on him will fail as well, and then I get a shitload of alerts, and
the worst part is that if i have to manually start a batch process I
need to go to each machine and manually start each job in the right
order,
I was looking to resolve this problem with a tool which can manage
this "pipe line"
and I cam across several tools like Luigi and (apache-)AirFlow, I
started with Luigi but It didn't look
right for the job, and then I tried airflow, but was not able to make
it to work, the jobs queue never executed. =(
Has any one have experience with airflow, or other tool like it which
they can recommend ?
My needs are to be able to execute my CURRENT shell/python/php
scripts and build the dependency between them, and I perfer the
option for remote exec so that I will have central
place to manage and monitor all work flow whichs are executed on
several nodes.
>>> --
>>> More proof the End of the World has started. Just saw this online:
>>> I think it's beginning! Ten minutes ago there was a group of people
>>> waiting at the bus stop outside my house. Now, they're all gone!
>>> My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/
>>>
>>> My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
>>> They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
>>> I may be affiliated in any way.
>>> WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at https://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Linux-il mailing list
>>> Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
>>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>>
>>>
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Re: Moving away from cron jobs to some workflow manager
Hi Rabin,
I'm far from being a linux expert, but isn't dependency between services
handled by systemd?
E.g. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd/Timers
HTH
2018-06-19 12:12 GMT+03:00 Moish :
> Try GNUbatch.
>
>
> On June 19, 2018 9:42:35 AM GMT+03:00, Omer Zak wrote:
>
>> For dependency management, you may want to use 'make' or modern
>> equivalents ('ant', 'gradle', etc.).
>> For controlling remote nodes, 'ansible' may be able to do the work.
>>
>> --- Omer Zak
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 2018-06-19 at 09:06 +0300, Rabin Yasharzadehe wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I need some advice, currently I have a huge cron file which schedules
>>> tasks one after anther, and each task is position precisely (with
>>> some room for error) to start after it predecessor.
>>>
>>> So if one job start at 00:00 and it will go and fetch some files and
>>> it takes 3minutes
>>> the next job will be after start right after at ~00:05
>>> and so on
>>>
>>> the problem is that if one job fails, all other jobs which are depend
>>> on him will fail as well, and then I get a shitload of alerts, and
>>> the worst part is that if i have to manually start a batch process I
>>> need to go to each machine and manually start each job in the right
>>> order,
>>>
>>> I was looking to resolve this problem with a tool which can manage
>>> this "pipe line"
>>> and I cam across several tools like Luigi and (apache-)AirFlow, I
>>> started with Luigi but It didn't look
>>> right for the job, and then I tried airflow, but was not able to make
>>> it to work, the jobs queue never executed. =(
>>>
>>> Has any one have experience with airflow, or other tool like it which
>>> they can recommend ?
>>> My needs are to be able to execute my CURRENT shell/python/php
>>> scripts and build the dependency between them, and I perfer the
>>> option for remote exec so that I will have central
>>> place to manage and monitor all work flow whichs are executed on
>>> several nodes.
>>>
>> --
>> More proof the End of the World has started. Just saw this online:
>> I think it's beginning! Ten minutes ago there was a group of people
>> waiting at the bus stop outside my house. Now, they're all gone!
>> My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/
>>
>> My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
>> They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
>> I may be affiliated in any way.
>> WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at https://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
>>
>> --
>>
>> Linux-il mailing list
>> Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>
>>
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Re: Moving away from cron jobs to some workflow manager
Try GNUbatch.
On June 19, 2018 9:42:35 AM GMT+03:00, Omer Zak wrote:
>For dependency management, you may want to use 'make' or modern
>equivalents ('ant', 'gradle', etc.).
>For controlling remote nodes, 'ansible' may be able to do the work.
>
>--- Omer Zak
>
>
>On Tue, 2018-06-19 at 09:06 +0300, Rabin Yasharzadehe wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I need some advice, currently I have a huge cron file which schedules
>> tasks one after anther, and each task is position precisely (with
>> some room for error) to start after it predecessor.
>>
>> So if one job start at 00:00 and it will go and fetch some files and
>> it takes 3minutes
>> the next job will be after start right after at ~00:05
>> and so on
>>
>> the problem is that if one job fails, all other jobs which are depend
>> on him will fail as well, and then I get a shitload of alerts, and
>> the worst part is that if i have to manually start a batch process I
>> need to go to each machine and manually start each job in the right
>> order,
>>
>> I was looking to resolve this problem with a tool which can manage
>> this "pipe line"
>> and I cam across several tools like Luigi and (apache-)AirFlow, I
>> started with Luigi but It didn't look
>> right for the job, and then I tried airflow, but was not able to make
>> it to work, the jobs queue never executed. =(
>>
>> Has any one have experience with airflow, or other tool like it which
>> they can recommend ?
>> My needs are to be able to execute my CURRENT shell/python/php
>> scripts and build the dependency between them, and I perfer the
>> option for remote exec so that I will have central
>> place to manage and monitor all work flow whichs are executed on
>> several nodes.
>--
>More proof the End of the World has started. Just saw this online:
>I think it's beginning! Ten minutes ago there was a group of people
>waiting at the bus stop outside my house. Now, they're all gone!
>My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/
>
>My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
>They do not represent the official policy of any organization with
>which
>I may be affiliated in any way.
>WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at https://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
>
>___
>Linux-il mailing list
>Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
>http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
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Re: Moving away from cron jobs to some workflow manager
I'll have to read the documentation to learn more, but this project seems barely maintained as only minor versions each year or two (last release was 2 years ago), that doesn't give a lot of confidence. but i'll check it out thanks. -- Rabin On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 at 09:43, Marc Volovic wrote: > Hi, > > It is intended for submitting multiple jobs for crunching. But you can use > it (SOGE) or SLURM for issuing job and dependent jobs, even on a single > machine issuer/execution host. It can be used as a resource aware job > scheduler. > > —mav > Marc Volovic > marcvolo...@me.com > > > > > On 19 Jun 2018, at 9:41, Rabin Yasharzadehe wrote: > > > > never heard of it, > > but from reading the manual and the 10minute presentation , > > it's seems like it is more suitable for data crunching, where you have a > pool > > of compute resources and you submit jobs to it. > > > > my case is a bit different, where I have many jobs which need to run > (orchestrated) on there own hosts > > with a specific environment and setup. > > > > > > -- > > Rabin > > > > > > On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 at 09:10, Marc Volovic > wrote: > > Why not a minimal deploy of SGE - which would also allow you to make > multi-executor? > > > > https://arc.liv.ac.uk/trac/SGE > > > > —mav > > Marc Volovic > > marcvolo...@me.com > > > > > > > > > On 19 Jun 2018, at 9:06, Rabin Yasharzadehe wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I need some advice, currently I have a huge cron file which schedules > tasks one after anther, and each task is position precisely (with some room > for error) to start after it predecessor. > > > > > > So if one job start at 00:00 and it will go and fetch some files and > it takes 3minutes > > > the next job will be after start right after at ~00:05 > > > and so on > > > > > > the problem is that if one job fails, all other jobs which are depend > on him will fail as well, and then I get a shitload of alerts, and the > worst part is that if i have to manually start a batch process I need to go > to each machine and manually start each job in the right order, > > > > > > I was looking to resolve this problem with a tool which can manage > this "pipe line" > > > and I cam across several tools like Luigi and (apache-)AirFlow, I > started with Luigi but It didn't look > > > right for the job, and then I tried airflow, but was not able to make > it to work, the jobs queue never executed. =( > > > > > > Has any one have experience with airflow, or other tool like it which > they can recommend ? > > > My needs are to be able to execute my CURRENT shell/python/php scripts > and build the dependency between them, and I perfer the option for remote > exec so that I will have central > > > place to manage and monitor all work flow whichs are executed on > several nodes. > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > Rabin > > > ___ > > > Linux-il mailing list > > > Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il > > > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il > > > > ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving away from cron jobs to some workflow manager
For dependency management, you may want to use 'make' or modern
equivalents ('ant', 'gradle', etc.).
For controlling remote nodes, 'ansible' may be able to do the work.
--- Omer Zak
On Tue, 2018-06-19 at 09:06 +0300, Rabin Yasharzadehe wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I need some advice, currently I have a huge cron file which schedules
> tasks one after anther, and each task is position precisely (with
> some room for error) to start after it predecessor.
>
> So if one job start at 00:00 and it will go and fetch some files and
> it takes 3minutes
> the next job will be after start right after at ~00:05
> and so on
>
> the problem is that if one job fails, all other jobs which are depend
> on him will fail as well, and then I get a shitload of alerts, and
> the worst part is that if i have to manually start a batch process I
> need to go to each machine and manually start each job in the right
> order,
>
> I was looking to resolve this problem with a tool which can manage
> this "pipe line"
> and I cam across several tools like Luigi and (apache-)AirFlow, I
> started with Luigi but It didn't look
> right for the job, and then I tried airflow, but was not able to make
> it to work, the jobs queue never executed. =(
>
> Has any one have experience with airflow, or other tool like it which
> they can recommend ?
> My needs are to be able to execute my CURRENT shell/python/php
> scripts and build the dependency between them, and I perfer the
> option for remote exec so that I will have central
> place to manage and monitor all work flow whichs are executed on
> several nodes.
--
More proof the End of the World has started. Just saw this online:
I think it's beginning! Ten minutes ago there was a group of people
waiting at the bus stop outside my house. Now, they're all gone!
My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/
My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at https://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
___
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Re: Moving away from cron jobs to some workflow manager
never heard of it, but from reading the manual and the 10minute presentation , it's seems like it is more suitable for data crunching, where you have a pool of compute resources and you submit jobs to it. my case is a bit different, where I have many jobs which need to run (orchestrated) on there own hosts with a specific environment and setup. -- Rabin On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 at 09:10, Marc Volovic wrote: > Why not a minimal deploy of SGE - which would also allow you to make > multi-executor? > > https://arc.liv.ac.uk/trac/SGE > > —mav > Marc Volovic > marcvolo...@me.com > > > > > On 19 Jun 2018, at 9:06, Rabin Yasharzadehe wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > I need some advice, currently I have a huge cron file which schedules > tasks one after anther, and each task is position precisely (with some room > for error) to start after it predecessor. > > > > So if one job start at 00:00 and it will go and fetch some files and it > takes 3minutes > > the next job will be after start right after at ~00:05 > > and so on > > > > the problem is that if one job fails, all other jobs which are depend on > him will fail as well, and then I get a shitload of alerts, and the worst > part is that if i have to manually start a batch process I need to go to > each machine and manually start each job in the right order, > > > > I was looking to resolve this problem with a tool which can manage this > "pipe line" > > and I cam across several tools like Luigi and (apache-)AirFlow, I > started with Luigi but It didn't look > > right for the job, and then I tried airflow, but was not able to make it > to work, the jobs queue never executed. =( > > > > Has any one have experience with airflow, or other tool like it which > they can recommend ? > > My needs are to be able to execute my CURRENT shell/python/php scripts > and build the dependency between them, and I perfer the option for remote > exec so that I will have central > > place to manage and monitor all work flow whichs are executed on several > nodes. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Rabin > > ___ > > Linux-il mailing list > > Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il > > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il > > ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving mail
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 07:12:10PM +0200, Geoff Shang wrote: The new mail has been showing up here for months, and everyone who uses her Email service is very happy with our hosting of her Email. What I want to do now is move the old remaining mail from the old site into the equivalent accounts on the new system. I'm thinking that I could do this using Fetchmail over an IMAP connection (SmarterMail supports IMAP4) and somehow deliver it to the new accounts. Or possibly use some other means to put it into appropriate Maildir folders. The latter would be better, as some of this mail is already saved into folders and it seems silly to require users to resave items to folders for storage when they're already saved like this. imapsync or imapcopy ? I'm not familiar with them, but they seem to do what you need. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best tzaf...@debian.org|| friend ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving mail
On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, Moish wrote: Connect to the old mail system, download the messages to local storage, connect to the new system using imap and then move the mail from local folders to remote folders. I've done it with Thunderbird but any decent client would do it. I recall that there were tools to do it on the server, but why bother? Firstly, it's not my mail. Second, this has a feel of clunkiness about it. I'd prefer to be able to just move the data without any risk that some mail client is going to change the data in any way. I suppose I can resort to this if there's no other option. Geoff. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving mail
On 23/09/2010 19:12, Geoff Shang wrote: Hi, Thought I'd tap into the collective whisdom to help solve this one. A few friends and I run a Linode VPS running Debian stable. We're using Postfix for our MTA, with virtual mailboxes in Maildir format. We offer Squirrelmail as one of our webmail platforms. Another friend has a website and Email system hosted on a Windows hosting platform. The Email uses a system called SmarterMail. Unfortunately, the web interface for SmarterMail has become more and more difficult for a blind person to use, and so we decided to move her Email from her server to ours. We're also looking at moving her site but it's currently written in Cold Fusion which could cause difficulties ... but I digress. The new mail has been showing up here for months, and everyone who uses her Email service is very happy with our hosting of her Email. What I want to do now is move the old remaining mail from the old site into the equivalent accounts on the new system. I'm thinking that I could do this using Fetchmail over an IMAP connection (SmarterMail supports IMAP4) and somehow deliver it to the new accounts. Or possibly use some other means to put it into appropriate Maildir folders. The latter would be better, as some of this mail is already saved into folders and it seems silly to require users to resave items to folders for storage when they're already saved like this. Any thoughts on how to achieve this? Unfortunately, this isn't a *nix system so I can't just log in and copy the files, I need to use Email protocols to get the mail and then do something with it, and I'm not really sure where to start. Thanks, Geoff. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il Connect to the old mail system, download the messages to local storage, connect to the new system using imap and then move the mail from local folders to remote folders. I've done it with Thunderbird but any decent client would do it. I recall that there were tools to do it on the server, but why bother? Did I miss something ? -- Moish ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving house: have at my junk
On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 11:49, Itay Donenhirsch i...@bazoo.org wrote: hi where do you live? Nesher, near Haifa. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving house: have at my junk
On Aug 8, 2010, at 7:19 PM, Dotan Cohen wrote: On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 11:49, Itay Donenhirsch i...@bazoo.org wrote: hi where do you live? Nesher, near Haifa. Speaking of that, there is some things I want, but have no way of getting. If anyone is going there and then coming to Jerusalem, I'd appreciate if you'd bring them to me. I'll gladly pay for gas, or buy you a bottle of wine, etc. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM To help restaurants, as part of the stimulus package, everyone must order dessert. As part of the socialized health plan, you are forbidden to eat it. :-) ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving house: have at my junk
hi where do you live? On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote: We're moving house and our junk is your gain. Below are two photos of the stuff you can adopt. I'm too tired now to list it all out, so I'll do that tomorrow morning. Enjoy. http:/dotancohen.com/images/junk.jpg http:/dotancohen.com/images/pci_junk.jpg -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Moving house: have at my junk
I've had my coffee, here are the details: junk.jpg: * Atari video computer system * HP 4255 (needs work), HP 1600 (needs cartridges), Assorted chargers * Mango phone, Universal solar phone charger, Jabra bluetooth headset, Silicon case for N95, 4 port KVM, 20GB WD IDE hard drives, Optical drive (CD Writer I think), Mechanical 4 port KVM * IDE quick-remove drawer, 2 battery chargers with lots of AA batteries, Motion sensor, Electromagnet, Radio, Sony Minidisc player with lots of rewritable discs * Lamps, Speakers, Wide-view rear view mirror, Assorted wood for shelves, Car sunshades, Encyclopedic dictionary pci_junk.jpg: * 2 network cards, 2 modems * Internal ADSL modem, Sound card, TV card with remote -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT
On Sep 16, 2009, at 6:21 PM, shlomo solomon wrote: This has been discussed before, but not recently and things do change over time. So, I'd like to hear opinions. I've have both, a 2.5m aDSL line and a 5m HOT line. The aDSL line uses 012 as my ISP, the HOT line as Netvision. I really can't seperate them, but from what I have observed is that the aDSL line is more reliable. Outages occur more often on it than the cable line, but they fix themselves much faster. Rarely has the line been down longer than the time it takes me to go over to the router and reboot it. HOT on the other hand has been down less often, but it takes much longer to get fixed. Sometimes there have been neighborhood wide (or wider) outages lasting several hours. When I got the 5m line from HOT, I had to go through their business office, which meant higher prices, but better service. When the line went out to my building, my next door neighbor called on Saturday night and was told that they would be out on Tuesday. I called 8:30 Sunday morning, 8:45 a tech called me, came here by 9 and spent an hour and a half in the rain. A later time I had problems, they were out in less than 2 hours. If you use VoIP, note that sometimes you can send faxes via VoIP on an aDSL line, never on a HOT line. (not related to a HOT voice line). In the distant past, I remember having to play with login scripts, pptp, NAT and so on to connect the rest of my computers. But since getting the router a few years ago, everything is automatic. I don't really want to go back to having to configure everything manually. I use a wired only EdiMax router I bought for 130 NIS at BUG. It's been rock solid. I'd wait for BEZEQ's NGN before deciding. Geoff. -- geoffrey mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM Jerusalem Israel geoffreymendel...@gmail.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
2008/10/8 Shlomo Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm thinking of moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable). I wanted to know 2 things: 1 - Since today I have an ADSL router (bought from Bezek), I no longer use pptp, NAT or any other Linux tools to connect to the Internet. The router is the only computer connected and all my Linux boxes (and my kids' Windows) connect automatically. Would this be the case with cable too, or do I have to go back to having one computer act as a server for all the internet connection on my network (of 5 computers)? This is how I have it set up. Cable comes into the house - cable modem provided by HOT - router - all the other computers. The router handles the 'dialing' and the other computers Just Work (tm). 2 - Is cable as reliable as ADSL - speed, disconnects, etc? Cable:yes Hot: no I have lots of problems with Hot disconnecting and very high latency. Hot blames Nezeq Beinleimi, Nezek blames Hot. I personally believe that Nezeq is to blame for the latency, but Hot is to blame for the _hours_ of downtime every month. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
2008/10/9 Shlomo Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Now I'm confused. Firstly, I certainly don't expect to plug the HOT modem into the ADSL plug. As I already wrote (see quote above), I thought I could plug the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports. I may be missing something, but I don't understand why you say I wouldn't be able to use the NAT facility of the router. If the HOT modem plugs into one ethernet port and several computers use the rest of the ethernet ports on the router, why would the router not funtion. Of course it wouldn't be connecteted to the internet directly, but it would be connected to the HOT modem. Am I completely wrong aout this being possible? The ADSL modem is a router/modem, not a switch/modem. The difference (at the superficial level that we are dealing with) is that with a router, there is a WAN side (the Interwebs) and a LAN side (your home computers). You cannot plug the Interwebs into the LAN side and expect it to work- it won't. Your ADSL router/modem has the WAN side of the router plugged into the modem internally. You need either a switch, or better yet, a router. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 10:20:22PM +0200, Shlomo Solomon wrote: Now I'm confused. Firstly, I certainly don't expect to plug the HOT modem into the ADSL plug. As I already wrote (see quote above), I thought I could plug the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports. I may be missing something, but I don't understand why you say I wouldn't be able to use the NAT facility of the router. If the HOT modem plugs into one ethernet port and several computers use the rest of the ethernet ports on the router, why would the router not funtion. Of course it wouldn't be connecteted to the internet directly, but it would be connected to the HOT modem. Am I completely wrong aout this being possible? It depends. If the WAN connection is actually to an aDSL PAD (looks like a telephone jack), then it won't work. If it is an ethernet port then it will. The usual routers only have one ethernet port on the LAN side, not 4. It is connected to an internal 5 port hub, so you get 4 LAN ports to plug things into, but the router part only sees one port. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 09:23:23AM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: I have lots of problems with Hot disconnecting and very high latency. Hot blames Nezeq Beinleimi, Nezek blames Hot. I personally believe that Nezeq is to blame for the latency, but Hot is to blame for the _hours_ of downtime every month. Not always. The way to tell is to use a tunnel from a Linux machine. If it gets an IP address of 172. something then your cable modem has a signal to HOT and it is likely to be your ISP or the connection from HOT to it. If it gets an IP address of 192. or 10. then it is always HOT. If you keep track of ping times from your computer to the gateway host versus something on the other side of the tunnel, e.g. DNS, you can track where the problem lies. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Shlomo Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Gilboa Davara wrote: Do remember that unlike PPTP/L2TP, as far as my firewall is concerned (which connects directly over Ethernet to the HOT modem), I'm using normal IP-over-Ethernet to connect to the Internet (with somewhat lower MTU). Since in my case (still using ADSL), my router is also ADSL capable and has a built-in firewall (I think most routers do), all the machines on my network connect to ethernet ports on the router - no single computer is actually connected directly to the Internet. My assumption is that I could still use the same router after moving to HOT. I would just have to unplug the ADSL line and plug the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports on the router. Am I correct? If you could fit a RJ-45 plug into a RJ-11 socket... (and even if you had an adapter, the unit expects a phone line with a DSLAM on the other end, and not an Ethernet...)... No, you can't. The only thing you can maybe use it for, is, as a dumb switch between the ports. But then, you won't have something to do your NAT for you. However, if you have = 3 computers, you _might_ get a long with receiving 3 public IP addresses from your ISP, should you chose to go MPLS route, and connect all 3 computers directly to the HOT modem. This is the reason why people should avoid buying a router with an embedded modem - it works only with Bezeq, and makes you buy a second router later... I strongly advise you to go the MPLS route, especially if you have a router. L2TP is a nightmare for many, many routers out there (and in general. Do you know how fun is it to have your connections sustain a carrier loss of the modem?). I have nothing but troubles since I agreed to move back from MPLS to LT2P (Why did I agree? See [1]). MPLS was ROCK SOLID - and I plan to go back ASAP. -- Shimi [1] http://shimi.net/2008/07/28/et-tu-bezeqint/
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
Shlomo Solomon wrote: My assumption is that I could still use the same router after moving to HOT. I would just have to unplug the ADSL line and plug the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports on the router. Am I correct? well if you want to still use the router as a router, I'd think that you'd have to be able to tell the router that one of the LAN ports is now the WAN port, and also to tell it to use L2TP to authenticate to your ISP unless you can get this DHCP-like arrangement people have been talking about. I'm not a network guru, but I'd think this unlikely for an ADSL modem/router combo (i.e. I suspect that the WAN port is always going to be the ADSL modem and that its authentication methods will be limited to those used over ADSL). If this is the case, you'll want to by a regular ethernet router with L2TP support. These are easy enough to find in my experience, I managed to buy one the first business day after I moved here. Geoff. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Thursday 09 October 2008, shimi wrote: On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Shlomo Solomon wrote: My assumption is that I could still use the same router after moving to HOT. I would just have to unplug the ADSL line and plug the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports on the router. Am I correct? If you could fit a RJ-45 plug into a RJ-11 socket... (and even if you had an adapter, the unit expects a phone line with a DSLAM on the other end, and not an Ethernet...)... No, you can't. The only thing you can maybe use it for, is, as a dumb switch between the ports. But then, you won't have something to do your NAT for you. However, if you have = 3 computers, you _might_ get a long with Now I'm confused. Firstly, I certainly don't expect to plug the HOT modem into the ADSL plug. As I already wrote (see quote above), I thought I could plug the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports. I may be missing something, but I don't understand why you say I wouldn't be able to use the NAT facility of the router. If the HOT modem plugs into one ethernet port and several computers use the rest of the ethernet ports on the router, why would the router not funtion. Of course it wouldn't be connecteted to the internet directly, but it would be connected to the HOT modem. Am I completely wrong aout this being possible? -- Shlomo Solomon http://the-solomons.net Sent by KMail 1.9.9 (KDE 3.5.9) on LINUX Mandriva 2008.1 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 10:20 PM, Shlomo Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Thursday 09 October 2008, shimi wrote: On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Shlomo Solomon wrote: My assumption is that I could still use the same router after moving to HOT. I would just have to unplug the ADSL line and plug the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports on the router. Am I correct? If you could fit a RJ-45 plug into a RJ-11 socket... (and even if you had an adapter, the unit expects a phone line with a DSLAM on the other end, and not an Ethernet...)... No, you can't. The only thing you can maybe use it for, is, as a dumb switch between the ports. But then, you won't have something to do your NAT for you. However, if you have = 3 computers, you _might_ get a long with Now I'm confused. Firstly, I certainly don't expect to plug the HOT modem into the ADSL plug. As I already wrote (see quote above), I thought I could plug the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports. I may be missing something, but I don't understand why you say I wouldn't be able to use the NAT facility of the router. If the HOT modem plugs into one ethernet port and several computers use the rest of the ethernet ports on the router, why would the router not funtion. Of course it wouldn't be connecteted to the internet directly, but it would be connected to the HOT modem. Am I completely wrong aout this being possible? I read what you wrote :) My point was to say that those routers with ADSL modems are designed to use the DSL port as the WAN port. This is how it basically works for the best of my knowledge: 1. DSL modem gets synchronized with the DSLAM 2. AFTER 1 IS SUCCESSFUL, The router sets up a PPP link with the ISP using the credentials you defined in the router (unless the router has been defined as Bridge and then you do it from your PC) 3. The router gets IP address from the other side 4. The router sets default route to the PPP link 5. The router enables masquerading for all traffic coming from the LAN interface, going out to the PPP interface. (like iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o ppp0 -j MASQUERADE) I hope it's now more clear on why this won't happen with the WAN modem connected on one of the LAN ports, unless you are able to replace the firmware with your own (or it's Linux based and you have SSH access to tinker with those settings...) -- Shimi
Re: router compatibility (was Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable))
On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 10:47:39AM +0200, Shlomo Solomon wrote: OK - so assuming I can't use the router I bought fom Bezeq after moving to HOT, can anyone say if they've had any Linux experience (good or bad) using the cheap routers sold by www.ivory.co.il? The two models they have are: 1 - wr541G for 148 shekel (or 180 shekels with an additional USB dongle - WN321G) 2 - wr641G for 195 shekel (or 270 shekels with an additional USB dongle - WN620G) Note that they are some off brand, so you need to look them up. The model numbers are similar to Linksys ones, but they are not. The thing to do is to download the manual for them and look at the setup instructions for the tunneling protocol you will be using, probably L2TP. In order to work with HOT, you need to be able to specify on the WAN side: IP Address* NetMask* IP gateway* DNS servers* Tunneling host aka Gateway The ones marked with an asterisk are usually provided by DHCP. The problem with some routers is that they are programed assuming that the IP gateway and the tunneling gateway are the same IP address. This is common in the US and the EU. Personally, since you are doing this for the first time, I would buy an EdiMax router from Office Depot or Bug, depending upon what they have because you can return them if you can't get them to work, and EdiMax AFAIK has phone support. I've never had to return anything they have made, but a friend did and when they took it back to Bug for a replacment, the person in the store called them for him. D-Link also makes good stuff. I had a D-Link wireless router which worked fine until the power unit burnt out then I traded it for a Linksys access point. The router, last I heard is still running fine, although it made yeridah. A friend bought one at Office Depot and I hooked it up for her to aDSL, and it took about 2 minutes to configure. Most of the time was choosing the WiFi passwords. If you can find one at what you consider a reasonable price, buy a Linksys WRTG-54L, which is the model that can run Linux. You can use it out of the box, and if you want to get creative, run Tomato on it. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
router compatibility (was Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable))
On Friday 10 October 2008, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: The usual routers only have one ethernet port on the LAN side, not 4. It is connected to an internal 5 port hub, so you get 4 LAN ports to plug things into, but the router part only sees one port. OK - so assuming I can't use the router I bought fom Bezeq after moving to HOT, can anyone say if they've had any Linux experience (good or bad) using the cheap routers sold by www.ivory.co.il? The two models they have are: 1 - wr541G for 148 shekel (or 180 shekels with an additional USB dongle - WN321G) 2 - wr641G for 195 shekel (or 270 shekels with an additional USB dongle - WN620G) The second one is probably not worth the higher price. It's a 108Mbps. I know the standard is still in draft stage and the extra speed would be useless for Internet connectivity. My network is all wired and I very seldom use WiFi mostly for guests. -- Shlomo Solomon http://the-solomons.net Sent by KMail 1.9.9 (KDE 3.5.9) on LINUX Mandriva 2008.1 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 10:20:22PM +0200, Shlomo Solomon wrote: On Thursday 09 October 2008, shimi wrote: On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Shlomo Solomon wrote: My assumption is that I could still use the same router after moving to HOT. I would just have to unplug the ADSL line and plug the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports on the router. Am I correct? If you could fit a RJ-45 plug into a RJ-11 socket... (and even if you had an adapter, the unit expects a phone line with a DSLAM on the other end, and not an Ethernet...)... No, you can't. The only thing you can maybe use it for, is, as a dumb switch between the ports. But then, you won't have something to do your NAT for you. However, if you have = 3 computers, you _might_ get a long with Now I'm confused. Firstly, I certainly don't expect to plug the HOT modem into the ADSL plug. As I already wrote (see quote above), I thought I could plug the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports. I may be missing something, but I don't understand why you say I wouldn't be able to use the NAT facility of the router. If the HOT modem plugs into one ethernet port and several computers use the rest of the ethernet ports on the router, why would the router not funtion. Of course it wouldn't be connecteted to the internet directly, but it would be connected to the HOT modem. Am I completely wrong aout this being possible? Shlomo, you should understand that not all routers are made equal. Unless there is very accurate documentation for yours, you'll simply need to experiment. Most home/ADSL routers I know have either of the following: 1. One RJ11 (phone) port plus one RJ45 (Ethernet) port. If that's what you have, you'll naturally need at least something (such as a small hub/switch) to connect more than one machine. 2. One RJ45 (ethernet) port marked WAN and four RJ45 ports marked LAN. In either case, it depends on the router's _software_ whether it will work in the HOT env or not. 2. is more likely to work, depending on MPLS/DHCP/pptp/l2tp/whatever support in HOT and in the router. 1. is less likely to work, but is not impossible: Theoretically, you can connect the router, the HOT modem, and your machines, all to the same switch/hub, and the router can (theoretically!) *route* over its single used port - get packets from the machines in some addresses, send them to the HOT modem in whatever form it expects them, and the reverse. It's certainly doable in a general-purpose Linux box, although not common. It's also not very secure - theoretically, in such a scenario, a local machine can try and bypass the router and talk directly to the modem, causing lots of interesting problems. Now, as I understand, what you have has 1 RJ11 port (intended to be connected to the ADSL phone line) and four RJ45 ports. This might seems similar to case 2. above, but actually might be more like 1. - and as I said, you can't know beforehand if it will work, unless you either have full control over the router (such as if you run on it one of the WRT54GL distributions) or its documentation says it will. I personally have no experience at all with HOT. From what I read in this thread, without commenting on the QOS issues, it seems to me that even if it won't work with your router, buying a new one that will should not cost more than 200-300 NIS, perhaps even less if you do not need wireless access, so it's not a huge risk, and if the HOT deal is considerably cheaper, the difference will be returned after several months of usage. -- Didi = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 09:41:48PM +0200, Gilboa Davara wrote: Do remember that unlike PPTP/L2TP, as far as my firewall is concerned (which connects directly over Ethernet to the HOT modem), I'm using normal IP-over-Ethernet to connect to the Internet (with somewhat lower MTU). You are a very lucky person. I have heard many complaints using MPLS, some from people on this list who are welcome to post them if they want. The complaints come fro problems with HOT not forwarding ALL of the packets, especially UDP, all of the time. They also don't always forward certain TCP ports and protocols. One person on this list fought it and was told they only claim to forward HTTP. Most of the ISP's won't give it to you now anyway. I use a custom Linux system as a router, which uses an L2TP tunnel and it works fine. If I had to do it again, I would not, I would use a small external router. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Gilboa Davara wrote: Do remember that unlike PPTP/L2TP, as far as my firewall is concerned (which connects directly over Ethernet to the HOT modem), I'm using normal IP-over-Ethernet to connect to the Internet (with somewhat lower MTU). Since in my case (still using ADSL), my router is also ADSL capable and has a built-in firewall (I think most routers do), all the machines on my network connect to ethernet ports on the router - no single computer is actually connected directly to the Internet. My assumption is that I could still use the same router after moving to HOT. I would just have to unplug the ADSL line and plug the HOT modem into one of the ethernet ports on the router. Am I correct? -- Shlomo Solomon http://the-solomons.net Sent by KMail 1.9.9 (KDE 3.5.9) on LINUX Mandriva 2008.1 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
Don't do the mistake to move to Hot. It will be the mistake of your life. Lots of disconnections, old modems, bad service, over charging,waiting on the phone line at least 20 min). I don't want to name all the defects. Even their CEO Kaminitz agrees that they have to improve the service. Their infrastructure might be better, but when it is untreated it is much more unreliable. See one example http://www.warning.org.il and http://www.tluna.co.il/companies/company.asp?CompanyID=128 On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:41 AM, Shlomo Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I'm thinking of moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable). I wanted to know 2 things: 1 - Since today I have an ADSL router (bought from Bezek), I no longer use pptp, NAT or any other Linux tools to connect to the Internet. The router is the only computer connected and all my Linux boxes (and my kids' Windows) connect automatically. Would this be the case with cable too, or do I have to go back to having one computer act as a server for all the internet connection on my network (of 5 computers)? 2 - Is cable as reliable as ADSL - speed, disconnects, etc? GMAR HATIMA TOVA. -- Shlomo Solomon http://the-solomons.net Sent by KMail 1.9.9 (KDE 3.5.9) on LINUX Mandriva 2008.1 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Gilboa Davara wrote: If you ISP supports it (Barak does) you can use DHCP instead of L2TP/PPTP. In this case, you router no longer needs to do anything (beyond NAT) Thanks, but maybe my question wasn't clear enough. In the past, I did pptp and NAT on my Linux box and shared my internet connection over the entire network. Since I bought an ADSL router from Bezek, everything is literaly plug and play on all Linux and Windows machines. I have the router set up to provide internal IP addresses to each machine and absolutely no set is required when adding or upgrading a machine. It's so easy that I don't want to go back to the old way (administering the pptp and NAT on my machine). So my question is really, can I do the same with cable? Of course, I know I'd need to get a cable modem from HOT, but would it just plug into the router or what? Of course, the ADSL component of the router would be useless, but I'm assuming (and here I may be wrong) that I could still use the same router after plugging the cable modem into it. 2 - Is cable as reliable as ADSL - speed, disconnects, etc? On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Gilboa Davara wrote: In my experience - far more reliable. (But it may depend on the state of your local HOT infrastructure) My IP was last changed ~4 months ago. On Wednesday 08 October 2008, sara fink wrote: Don't do the mistake to move to Hot. It will be the mistake of your life. Lots of disconnections, old modems, bad service, over charging,waiting on the phone line at least 20 min). WOW - there couldn't be more conflicting opinions. Did one of the two (Gilboa and Sara) have unusually good or bad luck? Can anyone else give an opinion? Since this may be a bit OT, you can answer directly to me, instead of to the list. If it's of interest, I'll try to summarize the opinions I get. -- Shlomo Solomon http://the-solomons.net Sent by KMail 1.9.9 (KDE 3.5.9) on LINUX Mandriva 2008.1 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
Since you have a router, you shouldn't have any problem connecting your network. Just configure your router. I'm using HOT cables + netvision and it works fine. Eran On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 9:20 AM, Shlomo Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Gilboa Davara wrote: If you ISP supports it (Barak does) you can use DHCP instead of L2TP/PPTP. In this case, you router no longer needs to do anything (beyond NAT) Thanks, but maybe my question wasn't clear enough. In the past, I did pptp and NAT on my Linux box and shared my internet connection over the entire network. Since I bought an ADSL router from Bezek, everything is literaly plug and play on all Linux and Windows machines. I have the router set up to provide internal IP addresses to each machine and absolutely no set is required when adding or upgrading a machine. It's so easy that I don't want to go back to the old way (administering the pptp and NAT on my machine). So my question is really, can I do the same with cable? Of course, I know I'd need to get a cable modem from HOT, but would it just plug into the router or what? Of course, the ADSL component of the router would be useless, but I'm assuming (and here I may be wrong) that I could still use the same router after plugging the cable modem into it. 2 - Is cable as reliable as ADSL - speed, disconnects, etc? On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Gilboa Davara wrote: In my experience - far more reliable. (But it may depend on the state of your local HOT infrastructure) My IP was last changed ~4 months ago. On Wednesday 08 October 2008, sara fink wrote: Don't do the mistake to move to Hot. It will be the mistake of your life. Lots of disconnections, old modems, bad service, over charging,waiting on the phone line at least 20 min). WOW - there couldn't be more conflicting opinions. Did one of the two (Gilboa and Sara) have unusually good or bad luck? Can anyone else give an opinion? Since this may be a bit OT, you can answer directly to me, instead of to the list. If it's of interest, I'll try to summarize the opinions I get. -- Shlomo Solomon http://the-solomons.net Sent by KMail 1.9.9 (KDE 3.5.9) on LINUX Mandriva 2008.1 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Thanks, Eran
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: As for the phone deal, it's ok, but there are better and cheaper deals depending on what call quality you want, and where you want to call. To replace a BEZEQ line, it's a good deal and does not use their infrastructure. Thanks for the long, informative post, but in my case, your various suggestions are really overkill. If I make the move, it will be to replace ADSL and a Bezeq land-line (not more than about 600 minutes a month). When I do call overseas, I use Jajah, which is more than enough for my needs, has excellent call quality and is very cheap (free to other Jajah users and less than 4 cents a minute to others). -- Shlomo Solomon http://the-solomons.net Sent by KMail 1.9.9 (KDE 3.5.9) on LINUX Mandriva 2008.1 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Wednesday 08 October 2008, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: First of all, you do not want to use DHCP. The actual name of what is hapening is called MPLS and it to be blunt sucks. The extra overhead of a pptp or more likely l2tp tunnel is IMHO worth it, although if you are at the edge of latency problems it will agrevate them. Not really relevant for my small (5 computer) network. I do use the DHCP server built into the router, but I cheat a bit - since I want each computer on the network to have a constant internal IP address (makes it easier to manage and use /etc/hosts), I added the MAC addresses of all machines to the reserved IP address list and specified what IP to give each. This gives me 2 advantages: 1 - constant IPs on the network 2 - If needed, I can add an unknown computer (for example, if I have a guest who wants to connect) and DHCP does the rest with no additional setup. I simply can't guess without any information about which router you have, but a 250 NIS WiFi one you buy here will work if the old one won't. As mentioned before, I bought the router from Bezeq, so it should be OK. It's a Siemens SL2-141) The biggest problem you will have is that the router does not have enough RAM for big routing tables, so if you do lots of P2P, it will have problems. I don't know what lots of P2P means, but I don't do much and haven't noticed any problems with ADSL, so I assume there would be no change with HOT (or am I wrong?) As for reliability, service and speed, the best thing to do is to call HOT and ask for their business internet sales office. They offer higher speeds, better reliabilty and they will come and fix problems a lot better and a lot quicker than a consumer connection. The only downfall besides the slightly higher price is that they will not let you combine a business class connection with basic cable and a voice line for a cheap price. If I wasn't clear, I'm talking about a home network (and my current connection is ADSL 1.5), so the added cost is probably not justified (especially since the HOT triple deal is one of the reasons I'm considering the move) - in addition to the fact that Bezeq seriously pissed me off recently, but that's a story for another day :-) -- Shlomo Solomon http://the-solomons.net Sent by KMail 1.9.9 (KDE 3.5.9) on LINUX Mandriva 2008.1 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 11:43:55AM +0200, Shlomo Solomon wrote: easier to manage and use /etc/hosts), I added the MAC addresses of all machines to the reserved IP address list and specified what IP to give each. This gives me 2 advantages: 1 - constant IPs on the network 2 - If needed, I can add an unknown computer (for example, if I have a guest who wants to connect) and DHCP does the rest with no additional setup. I was referring to MPLS, which someone mistakenly called DHCP, from HOT. HOT always uses DHCP to give your router an address and route information, whether you use DHCP on your side is up to you. As mentioned before, I bought the router from Bezeq, so it should be OK. It's a Siemens SL2-141) Don't know, anyone else? I don't know what lots of P2P means, but I don't do much and haven't noticed any problems with ADSL, so I assume there would be no change with HOT (or am I wrong?) I don't know either. If it works with the router you are using now, and the router stays the same, then there should be no problem. If I wasn't clear, I'm talking about a home network (and my current connection is ADSL 1.5), so the added cost is probably not justified (especially since the HOT triple deal is one of the reasons I'm considering the move) - in addition to the fact that Bezeq seriously pissed me off recently, but that's a story for another day :-) Ok, I was just suggesting it if you wanted better support than the usual customer. As for the phone deal, it's ok, but there are better and cheaper deals depending on what call quality you want, and where you want to call. To replace a BEZEQ line, it's a good deal and does not use their infrastructure. The 012 BEZEQ replacement deal isn't really, they still install an aDSL line and router, but you can't use them. Nor do you pay for them. For example, the VoIP company I use provides a US incoming number, an Israeli incoming number, unlimited (which really means 2500 minutes a month total) calls to US/Canada and landlines some other places, including Israel for around $40 a month. They have Israeli service and support, and are very well connected to Netvision/013. I don't know about others, but I have been told they are well connected to the other ISP's too. Their CTO is a friend of mine and a lurker on this list. He's willing to arrange custom deals if you make more calls, want incoming numbers in other countries and so on. Email me off list and I'll forward it to him, to avoid this becoming a commercial. If you have such calling needs it's a good deal, if all you want is to make a few calls a month or get a few incoming ones, it's not. In that case I suggest you get an Orange Big Talk SIM, a cheap used phone and leave it at home. SKYPE has a deal for $6 a month for up to 10,000 minutes to one country and $12 for the world (30 countries), but it's SKYPE, which to me makes it undesirable due to call quality. Note the unlimited call packages have one included incoming number, but NOT in Israel and you have to take the package first and then get the number. Someone I know did know about the package and is paying the same price for a US incoming number with no included calls as the entire package. She has to wait what she pre-paid to expire before switching. BTW, a posting to a local Anglo mailing list about MagicJack turned out to be astroturfing. When I wrote the guy who posted it, it turned out he was in New York, never used the thing in Israel, had gotten a free unit and service and never read anything about it except from their web site. None of which was in his posting. :-( The whole thing also collapses if you want to send or receive faxes. AFAIK no one has ever been able to use a fax using VoIP over cable here, and HOT support told me it does not work when I called and asked for advice. It DOES work on a HOT voice line, it's not VoIP. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 11:03:25AM +0200, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: As for reliability, service and speed, the best thing to do is to call HOT and ask for their business internet sales office. They offer higher speeds, better reliabilty and they will come and fix problems a lot better and a lot quicker than a consumer connection. The only downfall besides the slightly higher price is that they will not let you combine a business class connection with basic cable and a voice line for a cheap price. Just to add some more to my post, I have a 5m down/256k up cable modem from Hot and use Netvision as my ISP. I have had several (5-10) outages in the last year, one big one in September where everything was down for half a day. I called HOT and they arranged to send a technican out in about two hours, but he called and said the problem was with a wide area and it was being worked on, so there was no need for him to come. It was, of course the morning my teenage son was home recovering from dental surgery and I heard no end of it. :-) Since then I do have a problem with VoIP. Using a Linksys PAP2 which uses outgoing port 5060 for connections, some times I get a tunnel from Netvision where it is blocked. Once I figured that out, I was able to change the port from 5060 to 5061 and it has worked fine ever since. I assume if I did not change the port, I would have to call Netvision and complain. It does not happen using a Windows or MacOS softphone, which use a different outgoing port. My VoIP provider is based in the US and uses Level3 as their ISP, so I get 160ms ping times with a rare peak of 180-190, which is well withing the 150ms latency limit. When I had Vonage, I could not ping them, so I don't have any stats, but after 6pm on Wednesday until Sunday morning it was useless. Skype computer to computer is fine in Israel, but Skypeout is IMHO better than Cell-Com was in 1996 when I made aliyah, but not as good as POTS. Skype computer to computer outside of Israel is too variable to guess. As for download speeds, I have my download speed capped at 4.5m for QOS reasons, and my bit torrent speed capped at 300k bytes per second. I often get download speeds over 200k, and occasionaly 400k bytes per second using FTP and HTTP, and see 300k total torrent download speeds. Sometimes I get less than 1k per second torrent speeds too, so it depends upon the torrent. I don't watch streaming video from within Israel, so I can't comment on it, but streaming video from the US and Asia work fine until about 6pm when they start to bog down. Anyone does decide to go to HOT and call their business office, please let me know what speeds they currently offer. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 09:20:58AM +0200, Shlomo Solomon wrote: Thanks, but maybe my question wasn't clear enough. In the past, I did pptp and NAT on my Linux box and shared my internet connection over the entire network. Since I bought an ADSL router from Bezek, everything is literaly plug and play on all Linux and Windows machines. I have the router set up to provide internal IP addresses to each machine and absolutely no set is required when adding or upgrading a machine. It's so easy that I don't want to go back to the old way (administering the pptp and NAT on my machine). So my question is really, can I do the same with cable? Of course, I know I'd need to get a cable modem from HOT, but would it just plug into the router or what? Of course, the ADSL component of the router would be useless, but I'm assuming (and here I may be wrong) that I could still use the same router after plugging the cable modem into it. First of all, you do not want to use DHCP. The actual name of what is hapening is called MPLS and it to be blunt sucks. The extra overhead of a pptp or more likely l2tp tunnel is IMHO worth it, although if you are at the edge of latency problems it will agrevate them. Your router probably will work with no changes, except that some routers sold for use in the US or EU won't. It's because the tunneling host and subnet gateway are always the same IP address there and they are different here. I simply can't guess without any information about which router you have, but a 250 NIS WiFi one you buy here will work if the old one won't. The biggest problem you will have is that the router does not have enough RAM for big routing tables, so if you do lots of P2P, it will have problems. As for reliability, service and speed, the best thing to do is to call HOT and ask for their business internet sales office. They offer higher speeds, better reliabilty and they will come and fix problems a lot better and a lot quicker than a consumer connection. The only downfall besides the slightly higher price is that they will not let you combine a business class connection with basic cable and a voice line for a cheap price. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 21:36 +0200, Gilboa Davara wrote: On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 11:03 +0200, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: First of all, you do not want to use DHCP. The actual name of what is hapening is called MPLS and it to be blunt sucks. The extra overhead of a pptp or more likely l2tp tunnel is IMHO worth it, although if you are at the edge of latency problems it will agrevate them. I beg to differ. A. The client isn't effected by the use of MPLS. (Beyond reduce the MTU size by... 4-8 bytes?) B. PPTP is semi-OK, but L2TP? How can you compare the comfort of not having a dialer, L2TP complex dialing scripts, PPP configurations and the need to monitor the Internet connection for disconnects to having an out of the box DHCP support?!?!? As long as you have a -stable- line, DHCP is -far- better. - Gilboa .. And I'm talking about the dialer (!!!) and not the underline modem-BRAS-ISP protocol(s). Do remember that unlike PPTP/L2TP, as far as my firewall is concerned (which connects directly over Ethernet to the HOT modem), I'm using normal IP-over-Ethernet to connect to the Internet (with somewhat lower MTU). - Gilboa = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 11:03 +0200, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: First of all, you do not want to use DHCP. The actual name of what is hapening is called MPLS and it to be blunt sucks. The extra overhead of a pptp or more likely l2tp tunnel is IMHO worth it, although if you are at the edge of latency problems it will agrevate them. I beg to differ. A. The client isn't effected by the use of MPLS. (Beyond reduce the MTU size by... 4-8 bytes?) B. PPTP is semi-OK, but L2TP? How can you compare the comfort of not having a dialer, L2TP complex dialing scripts, PPP configurations and the need to monitor the Internet connection for disconnects to having an out of the box DHCP support?!?!? As long as you have a -stable- line, DHCP is -far- better. - Gilboa = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable)
On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 05:41 +0200, Shlomo Solomon wrote: I'm thinking of moving from ADSL to HOT (Cable). I wanted to know 2 things: 1 - Since today I have an ADSL router (bought from Bezek), I no longer use pptp, NAT or any other Linux tools to connect to the Internet. The router is the only computer connected and all my Linux boxes (and my kids' Windows) connect automatically. Would this be the case with cable too, or do I have to go back to having one computer act as a server for all the internet connection on my network (of 5 computers)? If you ISP supports it (Barak does) you can use DHCP instead of L2TP/PPTP. In this case, you router no longer needs to do anything (beyond NAT) 2 - Is cable as reliable as ADSL - speed, disconnects, etc? In my experience - far more reliable. (But it may depend on the state of your local HOT infrastructure) My IP was last changed ~4 months ago. GMAR HATIMA TOVA. You too. - Gilboa = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving OS from one Vmware to another
Hey,Inorder to answer you, I need some more inputs from you.1) Which product of Vmware are you talking about? Is it ESX ? or Workstation,GSX,Server?2) You've mentioned 1GB-2GB... Do you want to extend existing VM of 1GB to span accross 2GB ? Is it acceptable for you to perform an offline migration or other VM changes?- J.On 10/26/06, Michael Ben-Nes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hello,I need to move Debian from a Vmware with 1GB space to a new one with 2GB. What is the easiest way to achieve exact copy ?Thanks,Miki -- --Michael Ben-Nes - Internet Consultant andDirector. http://www.epoch.co.il - weaving the Net.Cellular: 054-4848113 -- -- Not gonna be king of the world if you're slave to the grind- Skid Row
Re: Moving OS from one Vmware to another
Michael Ben-Nes wrote: Hello, I need to move Debian from a Vmware with 1GB space to a new one with 2GB. What is the easiest way to achieve exact copy ? Same as between hard disks, I guess. Connect the new hard disk to the existing machine. Create the partition layout you want. Copy the files over (I use tar for that, usually). Don't forget that /dev/ is mounted as a ramdisk, but it has a couple of crucial files on the main partition, so those must be copied as well. When you're done, chroot into the new disk, install grub/lilo, and you should be done. Thanks, Miki Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving OS from one Vmware to another
1)Shutdown the vm2) vmware-vdiskmanager -x new size file.vmdk3) boot the VM4) Resize the partition filesystems using standard linux tools... (parted,etc...)Voila. On 10/26/06, Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Ben-Nes wrote: Hello, I need to move Debian from a Vmware with 1GB space to a new one with 2GB. What is the easiest way to achieve exact copy ?Same as between hard disks, I guess. Connect the new hard disk to the existing machine. Create the partitionlayout you want. Copy the files over (I use tar for that, usually).Don't forget that /dev/ is mounted as a ramdisk, but it has a couple of crucial files on the main partition, so those must be copied as well.When you're done, chroot into the new disk, install grub/lilo, and youshould be done. Thanks, MikiShachar --Shachar ShemeshLingnu Open Source Consulting ltd.Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html= To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] withthe word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the commandecho unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]-- Not gonna be king of the world if you're slave to the grind- Skid Row
Re: Moving OS from one Vmware to another
1)Shutdown the vm 2) vmware-vdiskmanager -x new size file.vmdk 3) boot the VM 4) Resize the partition filesystems using standard linux tools... (parted,etc...) Voila. On 10/26/06, Jacob Broido [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, Inorder to answer you, I need some more inputs from you. 1) Which product of Vmware are you talking about? Is it ESX ? or Workstation,GSX,Server? 2) You've mentioned 1GB-2GB... Do you want to extend existing VM of 1GB to span accross 2GB ? Is it acceptable for you to perform an offline migration or other VM changes? - J. On 10/26/06, Michael Ben-Nes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I need to move Debian from a Vmware with 1GB space to a new one with 2GB. What is the easiest way to achieve exact copy ? Thanks, Miki -- -- Michael Ben-Nes - Internet Consultant and Director. http://www.epoch.co.il - weaving the Net. Cellular: 054-4848113 -- -- Not gonna be king of the world if you're slave to the grind - Skid Row -- Not gonna be king of the world if you're slave to the grind - Skid Row = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving OS from one Vmware to another
Jacob Broido wrote: 1)Shutdown the vm 2) vmware-vdiskmanager -x new size file.vmdk 3) boot the VM 3.5) Make a VMWare snapshot, so that if step 4 goes wrong, you'll still be ok. 4) Resize the partition filesystems using standard linux tools... (parted,etc...) booted from a live CD (Knoppix is a good candidate). Voila. -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving
Marc A. Volovic wrote: Lo, children. I am moving house. By 1st August. This being the case, and there being HEAVY stuff I am not really interested in moving, the following equipment is for TRADE or SALE (with significant preference to trade): 1. nStor CR8e RAID box with 7*18GB disks 2. nStor CR8e RAID box with 8*36GB disks 3. IBM x306 1U pizzabox 2.8GHz, 512MB RAM, SCSI disk 4. Sun Ultra 5 270MHz, 256MB, 10GB disk 5. Sun Ultra 60 1*450MHz, 1GB, 2*18GB disks, KB+M No word from you for some time. I can offer a (small!!) ThinkPad R32 laptop in the following condition: Working CPU (1.6Ghz, pre-centrino) 256MB Ram 40GB HD 1 Battery (almost an hour's worth of use juice in it, despite the 3.5 years age tag. Brand new it gave about an hour and a half.) DVD reader (non-working) Either motherboard or display are problematic. I suspect motherboard, which means it has a working (no dead pixels) 15 flat display. Let me know what interests you. -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving
Quoting Marc A. Volovic, from the post of Tue, 04 Jul: No - seriously, I do NOT realy expect any of this. Just engage my interest. Truth be told, had I not been moving house, I'd be delighted to get Dawn Sun's working Amiga. I think that's being used for PHP development these days. I have an Apple //c if you want, with about 300 working floppies. -- The freshmaker Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OFFTOPIC] Re: Moving
On Wed, 2006-07-05 at 16:20 +0300, Ira Abramov wrote: Quoting Marc A. Volovic, from the post of Tue, 04 Jul: No - seriously, I do NOT realy expect any of this. Just engage my interest. Truth be told, had I not been moving house, I'd be delighted to get Dawn Sun's working Amiga. I think that's being used for PHP development these days. I have an Apple //c if you want, with about 300 working floppies. And I have Commodore 64 and VIC-20, which presumably are in working condition, although I haven't powered them up for several years. Floppies, too. However, see the disclaimer below. The disclaimer applies also to my VIC-20. -- My Commodore 64 is suffering from slowness and insufficiency of memory; and its display device is grievously short of pixels. Can anyone help? My own blog is at http://tddpirate.livejournal.com/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving
On 04/07/06, Marc A. Volovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lo, children. I am moving house. By 1st August. This being the case, and there being HEAVY stuff I am not really interested in moving, the following equipment is for TRADE or SALE (with significant preference to trade): 1. nStor CR8e RAID box with 7*18GB disks 2. nStor CR8e RAID box with 8*36GB disks .. Should this NOT go to someone by 30th of July, on the 31st of July #1 and #2 will be trash-binned and #4 will (possibly) be sent to Brasil to OpenBSD Wouldn't these be useful for community servers? people. I have not yet decided what I will do with #3 and #5. Also maybe some Linux distributions like Debian might be interested in these? --Amos -- (a grizzly) can tear through a tree like a Jewish mother through self-esteem. - The Simpsons = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving
Quoth Eli Marmor: But I'm sure other people will be interested to have answers for the following questions: 1. nStor CR8e RAID box with 7*18GB disks 2. nStor CR8e RAID box with 8*36GB disks Including disks? How old and what RPM? I am not sure how to write #1 and #2 differently. There are seven disks in number one (out of eight possible slots). The disks are eighteen GB SCSI. I think they are ten thousand RPM, but I am not sure. I do NOT remember how old they are, I will need to check. Number two has eight disks out of possible eight. The disks are thirty-six GB SCSI. These are also, IIRC, ten thousand RPM. 3. IBM x306 1U pizzabox 2.8GHz, 512MB RAM, SCSI disk The same question about the SCSI disk, plus its size. I am NOT sure, but is either nine GB or eighteen GB. -- ---MAV Marc A. Volovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Swiftouch, LTD +972-544-676764 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving
Quoth Amos Shapira: Should this NOT go to someone by 30th of July, on the 31st of July #1 and #2 will be trash-binned and #4 will (possibly) be sent to Brasil to OpenBSD Wouldn't these be useful for community servers? Not really. they need a head to connect to something (i.e. a machine with a scsi controller). And - I do not know anyone with anything like the competence and the willingness to maintain this shit. Maybe,when I move, I'll contrib them to the local school. -- ---MAV Marc A. Volovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Swiftouch, LTD +972-544-676764 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving
Marc A. Volovic wrote: Not really. they need a head to connect to something (i.e. a machine with a scsi controller). And - I do not know anyone with anything like the competence and the willingness to maintain this shit. Maybe,when I move, I'll contrib them to the local school. Not to mention that they can, today, be replaced by a single disk Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving
Quoth Marc A. Volovic: 3. IBM x306 1U pizzabox 2.8GHz, 512MB RAM, SCSI disk 4. Sun Ultra 5 270MHz, 256MB, 10GB disk 5. Sun Ultra 60 1*450MHz, 1GB, 2*18GB disks, KB+M All three for ONE of: Namiki Cherry Blossom Namiki Wave and Plover Namiki Raden 2000 Namiki Sweet Flag and Moon Dani-Trio Squirrel and Grape Any two of the above for ONE of: Delta Monza Delta Venezia Delta Don Quixote Vermeil Just the Ultra 60 for ONE of: Namiki Sterling Dragon Namiki Sterling Hawk All are FP. -- ---MAV Marc A. Volovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Swiftouch, LTD +972-544-676764 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving
I am moving house. By 1st August. This being the case, and there being Also: 6. Systel PM1500 intelligent UPS -- ---MAV Marc A. Volovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving
Quoth Shachar Shemesh: Marc A. Volovic wrote: Not to mention that they can, today, be replaced by a single disk Yes. They are TWO 3U units, with TWO power supplies each and a LOT of leds. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html -- ---MAV Marc A. Volovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Swiftouch, LTD +972-544-676764 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving
Quoth Marc A. Volovic: Namiki Cherry Blossom Namiki Wave and Plover Namiki Raden 2000 Namiki Sweet Flag and Moon Dani-Trio Squirrel and Grape Delta Monza Delta Venezia Delta Don Quixote Vermeil Namiki Sterling Dragon Namiki Sterling Hawk A special prize for the poor person who shells out for this :-)... A development kit for a nice microcontroller. No - seriously, I do NOT realy expect any of this. Just engage my interest. Truth be told, had I not been moving house, I'd be delighted to get Dawn Sun's working Amiga. M -- ---MAV Marc A. Volovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Swiftouch, LTD +972-544-676764 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
Hi! Just wanted to note that I fully agree with everything Amos Shapira said on this message. Hear, hear! Regards, Shlomi Fish On Saturday 14 May 2005 03:33, Amos Shapira wrote: On 5/13/05, Yedidyah Bar-David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: common as a server. So the crackers develop means to break linux servers. If/When linux is very common on the desktop, you'll start seeing the same there. Same flawed FUD used by the MS camp. Apache is the most common web server in the world and still it is cracked much less than IIS. Same situation (server, public net) still different results. - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Tcl is LISP on drugs. Using strings instead of S-expressions for closures is Evil with one of those gigantic E's you can find at the beginning of paragraphs. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
Shlomi Fish wrote: It's bread and circuses in English, AFAIR. Comes from Latin, if I know. Right and Right. http://www.bartleby.com/61/39/B0463950.html -- Thanks, Uri http://translation.israel.net = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 10:33:42AM +1000, Amos Shapira wrote: On 5/13/05, Yedidyah Bar-David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: common as a server. So the crackers develop means to break linux servers. If/When linux is very common on the desktop, you'll start seeing the same there. Same flawed FUD used by the MS camp. Apache is the most common web server in the world and still it is cracked much less than IIS. Same situation (server, public net) still different results. To get to even more philosophical ideas - I must say I do not accuse MS for behaving the way it behaves. I accuse the users. Users want Bread I *DO* accuse MS. They kept reasoning that people want convenience and that they must compromise security to give it to them. I never intended to imply that in order to give convenience you have to compromise security. What I wanted to say is that MS gives people what they want. Most people do not care much about security, so MS does not invest in it. Of course doing both is possible, as you showed. Or maybe I should say, people do not care _enough_ about security. They (most of them) would not consider moving off Windows only because it's not (less?) secure. I also guess that most people say to themselves that Windows can't be _that_ bad, or else less and less people would use it. A billion flies can't be wrong. Eat shit!. All of this, BTW, refers to a few years ago. Recent years changed both the understanding of the average users and their options. But I am not sure that we are close to World Domination (tm). I am personally waiting for this since 1997, when Byte first had the item Linux in a Gray Flannel Suit. Oh was I excited! -- Didi = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
On 5/14/05, Yedidyah Bar-David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 10:33:42AM +1000, Amos Shapira wrote: On 5/13/05, Yedidyah Bar-David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: common as a server. So the crackers develop means to break linux servers. If/When linux is very common on the desktop, you'll start seeing the same there. Same flawed FUD used by the MS camp. Apache is the most common web server in the world and still it is cracked much less than IIS. Same situation (server, public net) still different results. To get to even more philosophical ideas - I must say I do not accuse MS for behaving the way it behaves. I accuse the users. Users want Bread I *DO* accuse MS. They kept reasoning that people want convenience and that they must compromise security to give it to them. I never intended to imply that in order to give convenience you have to compromise security. What I wanted to say is that MS gives people I was stressing the point that it is MS's fault (as opposed to your I do not accuseMS quoted above). They made the decisions to provide insecure software. What could their users do about MS's software? what they want. Most people do not care much about security, so MS does not invest in it. Of course doing both is possible, as you showed. So what's wrong with what users did? They eat what MS feeds them. --Amos To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 09:10:59PM +1000, Amos Shapira wrote: On 5/14/05, Yedidyah Bar-David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 10:33:42AM +1000, Amos Shapira wrote: On 5/13/05, Yedidyah Bar-David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: common as a server. So the crackers develop means to break linux servers. If/When linux is very common on the desktop, you'll start seeing the same there. Same flawed FUD used by the MS camp. Apache is the most common web server in the world and still it is cracked much less than IIS. Same situation (server, public net) still different results. To get to even more philosophical ideas - I must say I do not accuse MS for behaving the way it behaves. I accuse the users. Users want Bread I *DO* accuse MS. They kept reasoning that people want convenience and that they must compromise security to give it to them. I never intended to imply that in order to give convenience you have to compromise security. What I wanted to say is that MS gives people I was stressing the point that it is MS's fault (as opposed to your I do not accuseMS quoted above). They made the decisions to provide insecure software. What could their users do about MS's software? what they want. Most people do not care much about security, so MS does not invest in it. Of course doing both is possible, as you showed. So what's wrong with what users did? They eat what MS feeds them. Microsoft is a company. It makes money. That's its goal. There are good companies, there are bad ones. This one is bad. So what? Noone forces people to be customers. Of course MS puts a very strong pressure on people to be. So strong most of them do not even realize they have a choice. I do not claim I am happy about the situation. But I do not think MS could have arrived to where it is today if most of the people in the world would behave and think like we (without defining what exactly is we) do. -- Didi = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
On Friday May 13 2005 15:42, Shlomi Fish wrote: Actually, a default install of Fedora took several months to break into. As opposed to less than 20 minutes for Windows. Could you please provide the source for that claim? I remember an anecdotial honeypots research in recent years done to test that. But there they actually have made the installation less secure than the default (bad passowrds, extra services available). I heard of the 20 minutes of Windows from two different sources. I found the Linux one on LWN.net IIRC. (or Slashdot?) BTW, the Fedora system wasn't updated with timely updates, which makes it even more impressive. OK, this is just not true. The fact that windows boxes mooning the whole Net get hacked in number of minutes represent only the sole fact that hackers love the windows boxes more. Why? Let's look on that from cracker's point of view: 1) Majority of windows users are bereft of gorm. They don't have anything to protect them. They don't patch up vulnerabilities on regular basis. Thus, writing automatic tools to scan, try a number of latest win exploits, if successful, upload zombie software and patch the hole, rinse, repeat whole network segments actually pays up in gold. There are people earning their living off that. As of linux users, you can expect a clue from someone who managed to eventually install it. 2) As previously said, there are far more windows boxes than linux ones. Moreover, there are more windows workstations than linux ones. Servers are generally harder to crack, as they are set up by a professional. See #1. 3) One can live for years on a windows box. Only thing one have to worry about is the plain old format c:; reinstall windows. Be a good guy, make yourself a silent backdoor, clean up the viruses and spyware, patch up the holes in time, perform the maintenance tasks and don't slow up the games too much. As long as user feels no discomfort, the cracker is safe. As of linux, the system administrator actually pays attention at what's running and bandwidth usage. 4) Statistically speaking, windows workstations has less uptime than linux ones. So, they change IPs more. Do I have to mention why this is good? There is almost no difference in how the default install of windows or non-hardened linux is hard to break. Any default install is weak, even with latest updates, and cannot withstand brainstorming by a team of crackers. The interesting experiment of a default install caught in a sweep of automatic cracking software only shows that spammers and DDOS coordinators still have the money to pay for zombies by the thousand, and not by quality. Only way to get thousands is to mass-crack windows workstations. Who has the time to do it manually? Setting a honeypot is much like throwing a theoretical hook to a random location in the ocean. There is a tiny chance to catch a small fish, infinitesimally small chance to catch a big one, and a big chance of having your hook caught in someone else's fishing net. -- Sincerely Yours, Michael Vasiliev ...this does not mean that some of us should not want, in a rather dispassionate sort of way, to put a bullet through csh's head. Larry Wall in [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
I think this is an academic debate if GNU/Linux is more secured or not. For the simple people, let us look at the facts: 1. When was the last time any of this list members has seen a virus in his GNU/Linux desktop? (I guess the answer is never) 2. When was the last time you had a spyware in your desktop? (again the answer is never) So the end result is: GNU/LINUX IS MORE SECURED. There is a question wether in the future there will be viruses or spywares, this is a real question (my opinion is no, there won't be). We don't know the future of Micro$oft OS either, will Longhorn be more secured? So for the time being Open source desktop is far more secured then XP desktop. -- Ori Idan Tzahi Fadida wrote: I think that something is misunderstood here. If you have a closed source, that does not mean that you cannot find bugs to exploit looking at the binaries. Those that are in the know, knows ( :) ) its not that hard once enough time is invested. OTOH if you have an open source software you can take a list of known code abuses and go thru the code and fix them. The problem is, that not everyone knows how to do that and thus again here open source stands out where anyone can see the code. With closed source you have to rely on the sole source creators - the owners. I definitely believe that open source is more secured, but its more relative then just saying that. I.e. only when the software is exposed enough in the community will it get the appropriate attention to fix its flaws. I.e. I will only compare security between closed and open source software with the same level of exposure. Regards, tzahi. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adir Abraham Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 1:21 PM To: Dan Kaspi Cc: linux-il@linux.org.il Subject: Re: Moving to Linux On Sun, 8 May 2005, Dan Kaspi wrote: this can be easiy changed; moreover, he claimed that since Linux is an open source, maybe it is even easier to develop viruses/spyware to it. In this point I did not know what to answer him. I am not a security expert; it could be that he is right in this point. There have been a lot of debates whether open-source is more secured than close-source. I'll give you a short quote from one of the famous articles out there ( http://www.dwheeler.com/secure-programs/Secure-Programs-HOWTO. html chapter 2.4: Is Open Source Good for Security?): Elias Levy (Aleph1) is the former moderator of one of the most popular security discussion groups - Bugtraq. He discusses some of the problems in making open source software secure in his article Is Open Source Really More Secure than Closed?. His summary is: 'So does all this mean Open Source Software is no better than closed source software when it comes to security vulnerabilities? No. Open Source Software certainly does have the potential to be more secure than its closed source counterpart. But make no mistake, simply being open source is no guarantee of security.' Regards, Adir. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
On Fri, 2005-05-13 at 10:18 +0300, Ori Idan wrote: I think this is an academic debate if GNU/Linux is more secured or not. For the simple people, let us look at the facts: 1. When was the last time any of this list members has seen a virus in his GNU/Linux desktop? (I guess the answer is never) 2. When was the last time you had a spyware in your desktop? (again the answer is never) Another criterion is the level of severity of publicized vulnerabilities in MS-Windows based vs. Free Software based operating systems and applications. The non-quantified gut feeling is that the typical case is that a MS-Windows/IE vulnerability is a critical one, which allows a malicious hacker to take over your PC and turn it into a zombie at one step. This can happen even if you do not make the mistake of authorizing malicious software to be installed. The typical serious Linux/FireFox vulnerability still requires some additional vulnerabilities and/or operator mistakes to cause a break-in. This reminds me of recent news about Symbian OS based viruses. It turns out that so far, in every case, in order for a virus to actually spread, the Symbian OS based cellular phone user needs to explicitly permit the receipt of a message and/or installation of software on his cellular phone. So the stories about Symbian OS viruses look to me thus far like a spin by their competitors. --- Omer -- MS-Windows is the Pal-Kal of the PC world. My own blog is at http://www.livejournal.com/users/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 10:18:49AM +0300, Ori Idan wrote: I think this is an academic debate if GNU/Linux is more secured or not. For the simple people, let us look at the facts: 1. When was the last time any of this list members has seen a virus in his GNU/Linux desktop? (I guess the answer is never) 2. When was the last time you had a spyware in your desktop? (again the answer is never) So the end result is: GNU/LINUX IS MORE SECURED. No, the end result is that the members of this list are more security-aware than the average. Much more so. I'd make a wild guess - even if all of the members here used XP/MS Office regularly, they would still have much much less virii/spywares than the average. OTOH, if 80% of the world's computer users used Linux, you'd see more viruses and spyware in Linux. Maybe not as much, maybe with less average damage, but while I agree to your conclusion, I do not agree to the reasoning. This reminds me of Paul Graham's articles, in which he claims that LISP programmers are better. But why is it so (whether or not you agree to the conclusion)? There are at least two opposite reasons: 1. Because programmers that learned LISP become better 2. Because good programmers prefer LISP when they come to know it. Just to prove my point - everyone here will agree that putting a default install of most major distros open in the net without some kind of firewall or hardening will very quickly make it broken into (I know about exceptions, no need to remind me). Why? Because linux is very common as a server. So the crackers develop means to break linux servers. If/When linux is very common on the desktop, you'll start seeing the same there. To get to even more philosophical ideas - I must say I do not accuse MS for behaving the way it behaves. I accuse the users. Users want Bread and fun (LECHEM VESHA`ASHU`IM). Users do not want freedom. They do not want security. Nor power, nor robustness. They want a lot of software, that doesn't require them to read anything or to think in order to use it (note I did not use the shorter term easy to use, I know it won't pass some tests). So that's what MS sells to them. It's not that I agree to all of MS's policies - but I think this is the root cause. -- Didi = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
On Friday 13 May 2005 12:05, you wrote: On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 10:18:49AM +0300, Ori Idan wrote: I think this is an academic debate if GNU/Linux is more secured or not. For the simple people, let us look at the facts: 1. When was the last time any of this list members has seen a virus in his GNU/Linux desktop? (I guess the answer is never) 2. When was the last time you had a spyware in your desktop? (again the answer is never) So the end result is: GNU/LINUX IS MORE SECURED. No, the end result is that the members of this list are more security-aware than the average. Much more so. I'd make a wild guess - even if all of the members here used XP/MS Office regularly, they would still have much much less virii/spywares than the average. OTOH, if 80% of the world's computer users used Linux, you'd see more viruses and spyware in Linux. Maybe not as much, maybe with less average damage, but while I agree to your conclusion, I do not agree to the reasoning. Possibly. This reminds me of Paul Graham's articles, in which he claims that LISP programmers are better. But why is it so (whether or not you agree to the conclusion)? There are at least two opposite reasons: 1. Because programmers that learned LISP become better 2. Because good programmers prefer LISP when they come to know it. No. 1 is true, naturally. No. 2 is not true - I know LISP but I prefer Perl. Other like Python, etc. The reasons I don't prefer LISP are: 1. The standards of Common LISP and Scheme don't define anything practical. 2. LISP is at the moment incredibly verbose. 3. As Larry Wall noted, all LISP code comes in parenthesis and so it all looks the same. (Perl is the exact opposite in this regard). 4. I cannot make heads nor tails of serious LISP code. Many LISPers create so many macros and use them along with regular LISP code, so you keep having to refer to the previous definitions, and make a lot of research to get you started. SICP Scheme is easy and fun. But serious LISP code can take too much time to understand. OTOH, recently I had little problem reading the source code of other Perl programmers, and extending it or fixing bugs. (likewise for Python). Just to prove my point - everyone here will agree that putting a default install of most major distros open in the net without some kind of firewall or hardening will very quickly make it broken into (I know about exceptions, no need to remind me). Why? Because linux is very common as a server. So the crackers develop means to break linux servers. If/When linux is very common on the desktop, you'll start seeing the same there. Actually, a default install of Fedora took several months to break into. As opposed to less than 20 minutes for Windows. To get to even more philosophical ideas - I must say I do not accuse MS for behaving the way it behaves. I accuse the users. Users want Bread and fun (LECHEM VESHA`ASHU`IM). It's bread and circuses in English, AFAIR. Comes from Latin, if I know. Users do not want freedom. They do not want security. Nor power, nor robustness. They want a lot of software, that doesn't require them to read anything or to think in order to use it (note I did not use the shorter term easy to use, I know it won't pass some tests). So that's what MS sells to them. It's not that I agree to all of MS's policies - but I think this is the root cause. From my experience mundane users want computers and software that just works. Gets the job done, has no bugs, that has all the necessary features, that does things the way you're used to. Somewhat like a toaster. I believe Linux does that much better than Windows. The main problem of Linux right now is compatiblity with Windows formats and protocols. But it's getting better. Regards, Shlomi Fish - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Tcl is LISP on drugs. Using strings instead of S-expressions for closures is Evil with one of those gigantic E's you can find at the beginning of paragraphs. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 12:05:45PM +0300, Yedidyah Bar-David wrote: On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 10:18:49AM +0300, Ori Idan wrote: I think this is an academic debate if GNU/Linux is more secured or not. For the simple people, let us look at the facts: 1. When was the last time any of this list members has seen a virus in his GNU/Linux desktop? (I guess the answer is never) Actually you should compare Linux here to Mac, due to a more similar market share. Just to prove my point - everyone here will agree that putting a default install of most major distros open in the net without some kind of firewall or hardening will very quickly make it broken into (I know about exceptions, no need to remind me). The default installation of most major distros (not Debian, though) does include a firewall and does remove most unnecessary services. Has been in the recent two years or so. -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | best ICQ# 16849755 | | friend = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 02:20:26PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote: On Friday 13 May 2005 12:05, Didi wrote: The reasons I don't prefer LISP are: [snip] We're here for windows vs. linux religous wars. Hackers-il is for languages religious wars. This thread is long enough as it is. Just to prove my point - everyone here will agree that putting a default install of most major distros open in the net without some kind of firewall or hardening will very quickly make it broken into (I know about exceptions, no need to remind me). Why? Because linux is very common as a server. So the crackers develop means to break linux servers. If/When linux is very common on the desktop, you'll start seeing the same there. Actually, a default install of Fedora took several months to break into. As opposed to less than 20 minutes for Windows. Could you please provide the source for that claim? I remember an anecdotial honeypots research in recent years done to test that. But there they actually have made the installation less secure than the default (bad passowrds, extra services available). Too lazy to dig out a link, though. -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | best ICQ# 16849755 | | friend = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
On Friday 13 May 2005 15:01, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 02:20:26PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote: On Friday 13 May 2005 12:05, Didi wrote: The reasons I don't prefer LISP are: [snip] We're here for windows vs. linux religous wars. Hackers-il is for languages religious wars. This thread is long enough as it is. Hmmm... yes. Well, feel free to reply to me in private, or to transfer the reply to Hackers-IL. Just to prove my point - everyone here will agree that putting a default install of most major distros open in the net without some kind of firewall or hardening will very quickly make it broken into (I know about exceptions, no need to remind me). Why? Because linux is very common as a server. So the crackers develop means to break linux servers. If/When linux is very common on the desktop, you'll start seeing the same there. Actually, a default install of Fedora took several months to break into. As opposed to less than 20 minutes for Windows. Could you please provide the source for that claim? I remember an anecdotial honeypots research in recent years done to test that. But there they actually have made the installation less secure than the default (bad passowrds, extra services available). I heard of the 20 minutes of Windows from two different sources. I found the Linux one on LWN.net IIRC. (or Slashdot?) BTW, the Fedora system wasn't updated with timely updates, which makes it even more impressive. Regards, Shlomi Fish - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Tcl is LISP on drugs. Using strings instead of S-expressions for closures is Evil with one of those gigantic E's you can find at the beginning of paragraphs. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
On 5/13/05, Ori Idan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this is an academic debate if GNU/Linux is more secured or not. For the simple people, let us look at the facts: 1. When was the last time any of this list members has seen a virus in his GNU/Linux desktop? (I guess the answer is never) 2. When was the last time you had a spyware in your desktop? (again the answer is never) So the end result is: GNU/LINUX IS MORE SECURED. It's a bit like concluding that pickles are dangerous to your health - after all 100% of people who have eaten pickles eventually die. --Amos To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source more secure? [was Re: Moving to Linux]
On 5/13/05, Yedidyah Bar-David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: common as a server. So the crackers develop means to break linux servers. If/When linux is very common on the desktop, you'll start seeing the same there. Same flawed FUD used by the MS camp. Apache is the most common web server in the world and still it is cracked much less than IIS. Same situation (server, public net) still different results. To get to even more philosophical ideas - I must say I do not accuse MS for behaving the way it behaves. I accuse the users. Users want Bread I *DO* accuse MS. They kept reasoning that people want convenience and that they must compromise security to give it to them. Well: 1. See OS X. 2. See the linux desktops - they are coming close and nobody thinks of giving up security. (my conclusion - you don't have to give up security in order to give convenience, not like MS did). 3. I've just heard yesterday that MS announced that Longhorn will make viruses and malware a thing of the past. If they can do it in Longhorn then why couldn't they do it before? and fun (LECHEM VESHA`ASHU`IM). Users do not want freedom. They do not want security. Nor power, nor robustness. They want a lot of software, that doesn't require them to read anything or to think in order to use it (note I did not use the shorter term easy to use, I know it won't pass some tests). So that's what MS sells to them. It's not that I agree to all of MS's policies - but I think this is the root cause. Again - you imply there is a correlation between conveneience is opposite of secure, you seem to have just been convinced by MS's flawed reasoning. I do not agree with you and ask you to re-think it. -- Didi --Amos To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving to Linux
Amos Shapira wrote: On 5/9/05, Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 09 May 2005 11:40, Amos Shapira wrote: I'm not that deep into Windows administration, I just know that, as far as I noticed, I never had to bother with it. Well recently I heard of someone who told me MS Freecell (!!) does not start for him for some reason. (while almost everything else seems to be in working order) I said I had no idea how to resolve it, but pointed him to free (as-in-beer and possibly as-in-speech) alternatives. And you think this is an example of DLL hell? Do you imply that he installed some program with a DLL which broke his freecell? Actually, that's highly likely, yes. The following is pure guesswork, but educated one `-) Following a recent thread in Wine-devel, FreeCell requires cards.dll. On Win 9x, this is a 16 bits DLL, which means that FreeCell loads it as a stub through a thunk (FreeCell has always been 32 bit, even on Windows 3.11). On Windows NT and up, Cards.dll is a 32 bit DLL. FreeCell accordingly directly links with it. Unlike MS's usual behavior on such occasions, they did not call it cards32.dll. As a result, you have cards using programs that can work on Windows 9x, and programs that can work on Windows NT+, but it's very hard to make a program that will work on both. Frankly, this shouldn't matter so much. The interface for Cards.dll is undocumented, and so, in theory, only MS applications would use it. Cards.dll does, however, have a very visible, very useful, resource section, holding images of all the cards (plus silly animations). If another application brought it's own copy of Cards.dll, probably BECAUSE it knew it couldn't count on linking with the OS supplied one, then it is entirely conceivable that it broke FreeCell along the way. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving to Linux
Hi Shachar! Would you mind if I put this message of yours (or at your option, an HTML page that explains it all, which you or I will write.) on the Freecell Solver site and its mirror, as well as forward this message to the fc-solve-discuss mailing list. Another good thing would be to try to convince Mike Keller to include the text in the Freecell FAQ (which is available online under a non-specified license.) Your name could be added to the FAQ's contributors for prosperity... ;-) Regards, Shlomi Fish On Wednesday 11 May 2005 08:58, Shachar Shemesh wrote: Amos Shapira wrote: On 5/9/05, Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 09 May 2005 11:40, Amos Shapira wrote: I'm not that deep into Windows administration, I just know that, as far as I noticed, I never had to bother with it. Well recently I heard of someone who told me MS Freecell (!!) does not start for him for some reason. (while almost everything else seems to be in working order) I said I had no idea how to resolve it, but pointed him to free (as-in-beer and possibly as-in-speech) alternatives. And you think this is an example of DLL hell? Do you imply that he installed some program with a DLL which broke his freecell? Actually, that's highly likely, yes. The following is pure guesswork, but educated one `-) Following a recent thread in Wine-devel, FreeCell requires cards.dll. On Win 9x, this is a 16 bits DLL, which means that FreeCell loads it as a stub through a thunk (FreeCell has always been 32 bit, even on Windows 3.11). On Windows NT and up, Cards.dll is a 32 bit DLL. FreeCell accordingly directly links with it. Unlike MS's usual behavior on such occasions, they did not call it cards32.dll. As a result, you have cards using programs that can work on Windows 9x, and programs that can work on Windows NT+, but it's very hard to make a program that will work on both. Frankly, this shouldn't matter so much. The interface for Cards.dll is undocumented, and so, in theory, only MS applications would use it. Cards.dll does, however, have a very visible, very useful, resource section, holding images of all the cards (plus silly animations). If another application brought it's own copy of Cards.dll, probably BECAUSE it knew it couldn't count on linking with the OS supplied one, then it is entirely conceivable that it broke FreeCell along the way. Shachar -- - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Tcl is LISP on drugs. Using strings instead of S-expressions for closures is Evil with one of those gigantic E's you can find at the beginning of paragraphs. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving to Linux
Shlomi Fish wrote: Hi Shachar! Would you mind if I put this message of yours (or at your option, an HTML page that explains it all, which you or I will write.) on the Freecell Solver site and its mirror, as well as forward this message to the fc-solve-discuss mailing list. Another good thing would be to try to convince Mike Keller to include the text in the Freecell FAQ (which is available online under a non-specified license.) Your name could be added to the FAQ's contributors for prosperity... ;-) Regards, Shlomi Fish Damn if I understand why, but feel free. Don't forget that this is just guesswork. I know for a fact that cards.dll is 16 bit on Win9x and 32 on NT+, but whether that really caused the problem you described is just speculations. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Microsoft Freecell [Re: Moving to Linux]
On Wednesday 11 May 2005 16:36, Shachar Shemesh wrote: Shlomi Fish wrote: Hi Shachar! Would you mind if I put this message of yours (or at your option, an HTML page that explains it all, which you or I will write.) on the Freecell Solver site and its mirror, as well as forward this message to the fc-solve-discuss mailing list. Another good thing would be to try to convince Mike Keller to include the text in the Freecell FAQ (which is available online under a non-specified license.) Your name could be added to the FAQ's contributors for prosperity... ;-) Regards, Shlomi Fish Damn if I understand why, but feel free. We Freecell Enthusiasts cannot see a fellow Freeceller suffering... I should note that there's Freecell Pro - a Freecell implementation for Windows, that was once freeware and now is entirely GPLed. It's an MS Freecell compatible Freecell program that is superior to MS Freecell in any way. (which runs perfectly on Wine from what I tried) Nevertheless people are still used to using MS Freecell, which is hardly maintained anymore. (If Microsoft releases something called MS Freecell.NET it might actually be quite interesting. I sure look forward to the day people deprecate MS Freecell and move to something saner. Don't forget that this is just guesswork. I know for a fact that cards.dll is 16 bit on Win9x and 32 on NT+, but whether that really caused the problem you described is just speculations. Thanks. And can I assume what you said in the original E-mail describing the Freecell DLL problem is Public Domain? Sorry, but any other license would be rejected by Mike Keller. Thanks again. hug / Regards, Shlomi Fish - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Tcl is LISP on drugs. Using strings instead of S-expressions for closures is Evil with one of those gigantic E's you can find at the beginning of paragraphs. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving to Linux
my dad is 82 and he is fine on the command line I walked him thru some file system checking the other day on the phone - then again he's a PhD in System Science from UCLA (not a typical user) :-) danny Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Tue, May 10, 2005 at 10:57:40AM +1000, Amos Shapira wrote: On 5/9/05, Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But my mother won't appreciate command-line at all (and so would I, if I'll have to explain to her what to do with it over the phone). Slightly OT: Actually some commands are quite useful for phone support. The problem is to get exactly the right information with the user having to type as little as possible. Consider the remote user as your interface to the system you're trying to fix. It is a sort of interactive terminal with a very long delay. So you need a set of scripts that already do most of the filtering. My mome gets stressed and confused from reading financial material in Hebrew, or even deciding what I mean by window title - that blue line? or oh, I closed the Internet now... (apparently after de-minimizing the IE window) ah! here it is, suddenly it's here again! And you expect her to be able to type shell commands (even simple script names) and read me their output? Yes, because it's very simple. You have to teach her once how to get to the shell (double click on that icon of the square in the toolbar). She can have some extra open and it won't be a problem. Simple interaction on the terminal is very predictable. And thus you can easily guide her through the phone. What I meant is practically to use her as a terminal (albeit a slow one). But for that you have to prepare in advance soe useful diagnostics scripts. I don't. (my mom is over 70 and practically used a computer in earnest for the last 6 or so months, just to give perspective). What I mean is how much information do you need to pass through a phone line? She can type short commands (and make typos. Thus tab completion is important, not just short commands). She can also get confused with a big window full of information from which you ask a very specific piece of text. For instance: how do you get the IP address of the system? (you'll have to know which of theexisting ip addresses the system has that you want, of course). You can write a one-liner shell script to get that from your mom's computer. But when she calls for help that one-liner is still not there. Yes, that's expose. And these are not just screen-shots but live, zoomed out application windows. Extremly neat and easy to stay oriented. There is skippy for X11 which tries to simulate it, works so-so. Rant: But for that to work well with Linux you currently need non-free display drivers. Non-free: not part of the common codebase easily customized by distros. It worked ok on my pure-debian Sarge X11 (when I tested it a month ago), and its docs say that with the later Xorg extensions it can also simulate the live part of the zoomed out windows. I admit that I'm not deep into the latest state of X11 technology, but what am I missing? Works, but generally a CPU hog, unless you have proper 3d acceleration, right? -- Danny Lieberman Visit us at http://www.software.co.il Office + 972 8 970-1485 Cell + 972 54 447-1114 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving to Linux
Hi, Frankly, I prefer the Two step approach- Well ,after reading the (quite many) responses and talking to him this seems to be what he is convinced to do. (at least at work, where he cannot afford himself spending time trying to solve technical problems in linux where an immediate solution is needed) . Since using application is presumably the easier part of moving to linux, I also try to to convince him to try to install Colinux under windows, so that he can play a bit with the command line,starting services, a little shell,installing packages (apt-get,yum,...) etc. (I do not know if this will enable him to test XWinsows ; When I tried to install colinux under windows about a year ago, I found out that using the XWindows under colinux (there were some methods to do that in that time) was not so good in terms of performance under my 2.4 Celeron processor; However,it could be that thing had changed since then). Regards, Dan Kaspi From: Shoshannah Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dan Kaspi [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: linux-il@linux.org.il Subject: Re: Moving to Linux Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 11:29:17 +0300 On 08/05/2005, at 15:40, Dan Kaspi wrote: I tried to convince somebody I know to move to Linux at home and at work. I am myself an advocate user of Linux at work and at home. snip He argued that migrating to Linux will takes time because you need to learn many new things; The security solution of XP (the XP firewall) and the free antispyware sw are enough for him; And he isn't convinced that it is worth to inverst time in migating to Linux. Are there other Linux benefits which I can pose for moving to Linux ? (except the idea of moving to open and free source). Frankly, I prefer the Two step approach- don't attempt to convince users to jump onto linux at once (which takes time, changing habits and coping with a learning curve), but rather get the person to use as much FLOSS applications as possible. That way, a future transition to Linux will be much faster and easier (many applications will be the same, many habits won't need to change), and many times the user himself will ask about moving to Linux after using FLOSS for a while. And if he doesn't? Well, this isn't all or nothing. He will still be using FLOSS software, and spreading freedom. Also, from I have seen, having users move to Linux without them really wanting to is a great way to create anti and Linux is horrible attitudes, which can close the door for Linux for a long time (and you never know where the person's influence will reach). So, to sum up, IMO the most effective Linux evangelism is soft and patient, not a hard sell. --- Shoshannah Forbes http://www.xslf.com = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving to Linux
Hello, Sorry, but I do not agree with many points you made. What I do agree that probably Linux is poorer in terms of games as far as I know; (and I do not know much except chess and TuxRacer). I hope this will change in the future and I see here and there signs to it. Regading docs: As I know,.if the doc is a simple one (no graphics,no tables) OpenOffice will probably open it OK; (and in many languages including hebrew,russian,chineese,...). Regarding more complex one: In the first stage they can be opened in word under Wine. in a second stage ,future docs ill be made ***only*** in OpenOffice ;(This can be a really difficult step to convince the managers to move to OpenOffice insead of Office ;this is quite a change; but I know places who did it; in small places I assume it is easier to get such a decision). Ppl just know XP, and all the scurity issues... what is security? ;) If i don't know, i don't care. Regarding security: I must say : I think you are WRONG ! In last week he had a problem with a severe Virus on his XP which made a severe damage to data and programs; He had to spent more than full 2 days to recover , and there is still work to be done (probably making a backup of his disk and installing a new disk) You should see his face ! (This btw was the trigger to this thread) In Linux I never had a Virus or known somebody who had. I hope this will not change in the future. Also, if he has problem, can you help him by phone? Did you try to explein someone to vi a file and edit it? I tried it with my sister I agree that vi is not a sympathetic editor (I don't know if the tern editor is good for it; I would call it an editing tool). However, why VI? I try to avoid using VI on linux. There are a plenty of editors running under XWindows: Kate,gedit,JEdit,... Regads, Dan Kaspi From: Kfir Lavi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dan Kaspi [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: linux-il@linux.org.il Subject: Re: Moving to Linux Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 15:28:01 +0300 On Sunday 08 May 2005 15:40, you wrote: Hello, I tried to convince somebody I know to move to Linux at home and at work. I am myself an advocate user of Linux at work and at home. He works with a XP at work (a hightech company; however , he is not a programmer) ,and also XP at home. If he is not a programmer, i guess that he have some DOC files to work with. Did you tried to work with ppl that have Word and you have OpenOffice? It can do some trouble. If he will move to linux and find that his best website don't work. You had it! I don't think that you can move desktop XP ppl to linux, they will eat you alive. When listing the main advantages of Linux , the most important one I had thought of was security ; when you access the internet from a Linux machine, chances that you get a virus or spyware or someone will intrude your machine are smaller ; He answered that , when thinking in the long term (2-3 years) , as more people will use linux as a desktop, this can be easiy changed; moreover, he claimed that since Linux is an open source, maybe it is even easier to develop viruses/spyware to it. In this point I did not know what to answer him. I am not a security expert; it could be that he is right in this point. Ppl that look at me when i work on my laptop, start to lough. They don't understand what i'm writing so much ;) And i just type shell commands. So i use linux for its shell and programing ease. I recently went to my cusins, they are 13. I have opened the start menu, and all the 19'' disply was the start menu with like 100 games. Now tell me, how can i move this babies to linux? What should i give them - TUX racer ;) Linux is now OS for ppl that need its advantages, and for the office and home use, XP takes Linux hands down. Not in security, not in shell, not in bla bla bla. Ppl just know XP, and all the scurity issues... what is security? ;) If i don't know, i don't care. Also, if he has problem, can you help him by phone? Did you try to explein someone to vi a file and edit it? I tried it with my sister, when the network was down, and belive me Other Linux benefits that I thought of is that since Linux is open source, all applications he will probably need are handy for download; in winodws you cannot download office He argued that migrating to Linux will takes time because you need to learn many new things; The security solution of XP (the XP firewall) and the free antispyware sw are enough for him; And he isn't convinced that it is worth to inverst time in migating to Linux. Are there other Linux benefits which I can pose for moving to Linux ? (except the idea of moving to open and free source). Dan Kaspi If Linux wants to be No.1, it should apeel to the games companies, and make them program games just for linux, then children will want linux, and we'll have the next generation. And this is the most important step to the future of linux - the children
Re: Moving to Linux
On 5/10/05, Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, because it's very simple. You have to teach her once how to get to the shell (double click on that icon of the square in the toolbar). She can have some extra open and it won't be a problem. I should be able to do the same on Windows, shouldn't I? Simple interaction on the terminal is very predictable. And thus you can easily guide her through the phone. What I meant is practically to use her as a terminal (albeit a slow one). But for that you have to prepare in advance soe useful diagnostics scripts. It's all nice and convinsing, but the problems usually come up in using existing GUI applications, not in diagnozing system problems. I setup dynamic dns service on her computer and managed sometimes to login to it with WinVNC but it wasn't brilliant. Maybe I should give it a try again... --Amos To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving to Linux
On 5/10/05, Dan Kaspi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Frankly, I prefer the Two step approach- Well ,after reading the (quite many) responses and talking to him this seems to be what he is convinced to do. (at least at work, where he cannot afford himself spending time trying to solve technical problems in linux where an immediate solution is needed) . Great to hear that. Since using application is presumably the easier part of moving to linux, I also try to to convince him to try to install Colinux under windows, so that he can play a bit with the command line,starting services, a little shell,installing packages (apt-get,yum,...) etc. (I do not know if this will enable him to test XWinsows ; When I tried to install colinux under windows about a year ago, I found out that using the XWindows under colinux (there were some methods to do that in that time) was not so good in terms of performance under my 2.4 Celeron processor; However,it could be that thing had changed since then). You better snoop around about the status of coLinux and what are the chances that it'll work for him. If the chances are low then maybe it's better not to expose him to it since it may leave a bad impression. As for X11 (IF coLinux works) - you should be able to install an X server on Windows and an XDMCP service on Linux so he will actually login remotely from a display running on Windows into an X session running on coLinux. That way you get all the X11 clients without having to run an entire display simulation under coLinux. I haven't tried this but this is what the X11 designers had in mind when they did it. Cheers, --Amos To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Moving to Linux
i installed linux (first redhat, then mandrake) for my mom a few years ago. the reason: her tv card refused to work properly in windows no matter what we tried. so she was extremely happy with linux and hardly bugged me at all. and believe me, she's rather clueless on the computer (she does stuff like opening a doc file in word and choosing save as.. in order to rename a file :) anyways, she was using linux happily, w/ a dual boot to windows which she hardly used, and then my brother convinced her to let him install windows instead. now, she keeps calling everyone every week or two with problems in her windows and she really misses her linux... (she misses the uptime, the multiple desktops, the fact that things didn't suddenly break and stop working for no reason, her games - aisleriot, pysol, lbreakout 2, and other things i can't think of right now.) oh, and about the command line, back then when she tried to shut down her linux, sometimes some process needed manual killing, so i gave her the set of commands she needed to type in the command line and she had no problem doing that. in fact she preferred doing that than, say, dragging some file in windows, because for her it's easier to give the computer some commands she doesn't really understand than to start trying to figure out intuitive gui... *** Information contained in this email message is intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original message. *** To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving to Linux
On Tuesday 10 May 2005 10:03, you wrote: Also, if he has problem, can you help him by phone? Did you try to explein someone to vi a file and edit it? I tried it with my sister I agree that vi is not a sympathetic editor (I don't know if the tern editor is good for it; I would call it an editing tool). I beg to differ. vi and especially vim/gvim are very good editors, and very convenient. vi has a lot of keystroke commands and takes time to get used it, but you can edit files very quickly and conviently after you do. With gvim with certain configurations, even people who are used to Windows-based editors can feel at home. (that's what I use). I once witnessed Guy Keren editing in vi, and he could do amazing text transformations incredibly quickly. I'm not yet as fluent in vi as he is, but I can say that the vi philosophy is incredibly convenient. If you don't know vim or Emacs yet, it would be a good investment to learn one. However, why VI? I try to avoid using VI on linux. There are a plenty of editors running under XWindows: Kate,gedit,JEdit,... NEdit is also nice. The slides covering basic vi use have been removed from recent Welcome to Linuxes due to the fact that it seems knowing vi has become less and less important. Kfir, unless X-windows is not working, there is no need to instruct people how to use vi. And even in console, it may be more beneficial to introduce people to joe or GNU nano. Regards, Shlomi Fish - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Hacker sees bug. Hacker fixes bug. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving to Linux
On Tue, May 10, 2005, Shlomi Fish wrote about Re: Moving to Linux: NEdit is also nice. The slides covering basic vi use have been removed from recent Welcome to Linuxes due to the fact that it seems knowing vi has become less and less important. Kfir, unless X-windows is not working, there is no need to instruct people how to use vi. And even in console, it may be more beneficial to introduce people to joe or GNU nano. Just today I saw on the newspaper that kids today don't know who Herzl was, or what he did. Sure, you can get by today without knowing anything about Herzl, but he played an important part in the history of Israel, so we should remember him. Similarly, vi may no longer be in vogue, but it was very important in the history of Unix, so people should be taught about it ;) For even more ancient history, ed should be taught as well. Otherwise, how will the newbie understand the name of the command grep, which comes from the ed idom g/re/p? ;) -- Nadav Har'El| Tuesday, May 10 2005, 1 Iyyar 5765 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |The meek shall inherit the Earth, for http://nadav.harel.org.il |they are too timid to refuse it. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving to Linux
Hi, You better snoop around about the status of coLinux and what are the chances that it'll work for him. If the chances are low then maybe it's better not to expose him to it since it may leave a bad impression. As for X11 (IF coLinux works) - you should be able to install an X server on Windows and an XDMCP service on Linux so he will actually login remotely from a display running on Windows into an X session ... 1 ) well, the version of colinux under winodws that I had installed last year worked OK. ( It took of course a large disk space - more than 1 GB). 2) I did that procedure you mentioned of install an X server... and XDMCP service. already a year ago. As I mentioned im my previous post, working in this way was very heavy and slow on my Celeron 2.4 Ghz Intel CPU; maybe it was improved in the meantime. If performance was not improved significantly, I do not think I will recommend to him using this X Server. Regards, Dan From: Amos Shapira [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Amos Shapira [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: linux-il@linux.org.il Subject: Re: Moving to Linux Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:13:53 +1000 On 5/10/05, Dan Kaspi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Frankly, I prefer the Two step approach- Well ,after reading the (quite many) responses and talking to him this seems to be what he is convinced to do. (at least at work, where he cannot afford himself spending time trying to solve technical problems in linux where an immediate solution is needed) . Great to hear that. Since using application is presumably the easier part of moving to linux, I also try to to convince him to try to install Colinux under windows, so that he can play a bit with the command line,starting services, a little shell,installing packages (apt-get,yum,...) etc. (I do not know if this will enable him to test XWinsows ; When I tried to install colinux under windows about a year ago, I found out that using the XWindows under colinux (there were some methods to do that in that time) was not so good in terms of performance under my 2.4 Celeron processor; However,it could be that thing had changed since then). You better snoop around about the status of coLinux and what are the chances that it'll work for him. If the chances are low then maybe it's better not to expose him to it since it may leave a bad impression. As for X11 (IF coLinux works) - you should be able to install an X server on Windows and an XDMCP service on Linux so he will actually login remotely from a display running on Windows into an X session running on coLinux. That way you get all the X11 clients without having to run an entire display simulation under coLinux. I haven't tried this but this is what the X11 designers had in mind when they did it. Cheers, --Amos To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving to Linux
On Tuesday 10 May 2005 13:11, you wrote: On Tue, May 10, 2005, Shlomi Fish wrote about Re: Moving to Linux: NEdit is also nice. The slides covering basic vi use have been removed from recent Welcome to Linuxes due to the fact that it seems knowing vi has become less and less important. Kfir, unless X-windows is not working, there is no need to instruct people how to use vi. And even in console, it may be more beneficial to introduce people to joe or GNU nano. Just today I saw on the newspaper that kids today don't know who Herzl was, or what he did. Sure, you can get by today without knowing anything about Herzl, but he played an important part in the history of Israel, so we should remember him. Similarly, vi may no longer be in vogue, but it was very important in the history of Unix, so people should be taught about it ;) There's a difference between telling people that vi exists, what its philosophy is, etc. and teaching them how to use vi in a Welcome to Linux itroducory series. Editing text is very common in UNIX, and vi is an important part of UNIX history, but teaching people about insert mode and command mode and the difference between :q and :q! is not something they need to be aware of when they start. That can easily be learned afterwards. For even more ancient history, ed should be taught as well. Otherwise, how will the newbie understand the name of the command grep, which comes from the ed idom g/re/p? ;) Heh. It is also important to understand that hardware played part in shaping the evolution of editors. When UNIX started, computers wrote output to line printers on paper, (very slowly). So people created editors like ed, where you typed a line and executed it. Then came terminals without relocated cursor (IIRC) and so ex evolved. Once terminals where the cursor was relocatable evolved, Bill Joy created vi to be used. It should also be noted that the keywords when vi was created did not have many modifier keys that we now take for granted. They didn't have the Alts for sure, or the F-keys and they may not have had the Ctrl modifiers either. They did not have the Num pad much less the IBM PS/2 cursor keys and concentrated Home/End/Insert etc. scheme. Regards, Shlomi Fish - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Hacker sees bug. Hacker fixes bug. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving to Linux
On Tue, May 10, 2005 at 02:06:30PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote: Heh. It is also important to understand that hardware played part in shaping the evolution of editors. When UNIX started, computers wrote output to line printers on paper, (very slowly). So people created editors like ed, where you typed a line and executed it. Then came terminals without relocated cursor (IIRC) and so ex evolved. Once terminals where the cursor was relocatable evolved, Bill Joy created vi to be used. It should also be noted that the keywords when vi was created did not have many modifier keys that we now take for granted. They didn't have the Alts for sure, or the F-keys and they may not have had the Ctrl modifiers either. They did not have the Num pad much less the IBM PS/2 cursor keys and concentrated Home/End/Insert etc. scheme. I do not know what exact keyboard Joy used while writing vi, but my guess is that it wasn't lacking modifier keys. Rather, at the time, modifier and control keys were non-standard. There were many different keyboards with many different keys. So he decided to use the lowest common denominator. An antithesis is emacs, which some claim is an acronym for 'Escape Meta Alt Control Shift'. For a nice description of the subject, read the entry 'space-cadet keyboard' in the jargon file. -- Didi = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving to Linux
This would cause a major outcry on Slashdot: press_release Microsoft (MSFT) to announce new, innovative Windows Software Repository (tm) for bettter security and integration. The Microsoft Co. is pleased to announce that, comming with the next version of windows, code-named 'Longhorn', a new service has been devised by microsoft, to allow users to access, evaluate and pay for new software directly from a central application, dubbed 'Windows Software Center (tm)'. The application would contact Microsoft's main server, and allow the user to select programs that are certified by Microsoft for security, stability and proper integration with the OS. This is a part of Microsoft's ongoing efffort to make Effortless Computing (tm) a reality for all AT's out there. /press_release You know that if MS will do that, companies will not only participate, but will *pay* to be included and 'certified', rather than left behind in the dust. Why haven't they done it yet? I can only guess: as developing costs money and effort, MS only concentrates their efforts on whatever is touted as their competition's greatest benefit, being a sensible business. What FOSS advocates push now is security, so that's what they're after now. When it was stability, that's what they went after. If FOSS advocates would push the usability button harder, and have a real advantage to show (much more than now), above press release would become a reality. Just my 2 agorot. Amit Aronovitch wrote: Amos Shapira wrote: Debian (and other distro's) convenience is that it packages many utilities and add-ons in an easy uniform interface to download/install/config. This should be possible to do also on Windows (there is nothing special about the Linux kernel), only it haven't been done yet. People can probably come up with many reasons (one I can think of is the proprietary and non-free-as-in-speech nature of the licenses of most Windows utilities). There are tucows.com/download.com etc., only there is no central body (that I'm aware of) to help Windows users track changes convenietly, I consider *integration* as the main benefit - not the cerntralized site. Generally, Windows users are just not aware of the possibility to have all your software installable in a consistant and clean way from a single source (and have them all updated with a single command or GUI button). The major benefit of working with a mainstream distro, is that the package maintainers actively work on making all software integrate in a consistant way (and with the big distros, almost every useful new opensource software will be immediately packaged) e.g.: * After you install an app, it will be immediately added to your menus in an appropriate sub-menu (in windows all apps are added into a huge single Applications menu, make themselved the default handler for stuff etc.). * You can't install conflicting software - either conflicts would be automaticly resolved or you'll be asked to choose - and that's even before the download starts. If a package depends on other software, they will be automaticly downloaded and installed too. * No more software overriding each other's settings, grabbing each others file extensions etc. Packages register the software with the distro's central mechanisms for handling alternatives. security patches etc - they have to keep track of each installed utility separatly. (Maybe it's an idea for a startup? :) You can't do that (unless you drop what I consider to be the main benefit). And there's a good reason for that - namely Copyright law vs Open Source. With propriatary software - no single entity can maintain a single repository with integrated packages covering all (well, 99% at least) of the software you'll ever need. They are just *not legally allowed* to do so. If your'e Micorosft, you might create a central distribution source carrying Windows, Office, several games and tools, but what about Photoshop? Doom3? Acrobat Reader? WinZip? You can't legally distribute those without special contract with the authors (well, you can always buy some companies, and put others out of business ;-) ). Of course, you could add some Free Software in your distribution too - but you can't add GPL-licensed stuff (and GPL is the most common OSS license). If you do add GPL stuff, you'll have to make all the other stuff open source too - so the commercial parts are out - you can't supply Office Windows. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Keep on rocking in a free world! = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Moving to Linux
On Monday 09 May 2005 11:40, Amos Shapira wrote: On 5/9/05, Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But there's always a possibility. In Windows, it's impossible to keep several versions of the same DLL due to the lack of symbolic links. And most packages come in installers, that install all the required DLLs along with the programs. (there is no dependency resolution). But it' possible that it's no longer a problem as before. (possibly because the development of the DLLs has become more stable). I'm not that deep into Windows administration, I just know that, as far as I noticed, I never had to bother with it. Well recently I heard of someone who told me MS Freecell (!!) does not start for him for some reason. (while almost everything else seems to be in working order) I said I had no idea how to resolve it, but pointed him to free (as-in-beer and possibly as-in-speech) alternatives. Generally, a system should be expected to avoid having to rely on such mechanisms and be secure by default. There can always be a new kind of spyware that the anti-spyware software could not detect in time. As for firewall, generally, the system should be secure even with all the services exposed. I agree that firewalls/NATs/etc. are useful (even for Linux First - I share your feeling that it's silly that Microsoft sell a broken OS and then sort of patch it by giving anti-virus software to try to catch the slime which sleeped through the holes in its basic OS, and half the computer's resources are wasted on constant security checks instead of on doing real work. Second - My point is that this is not the sort of argument that people like my mom would understand or care about. All they know is that in Windows they more-or-less manage to do what they want and in Linux they don't (or at least if they can do just the same things in Linux when why bother to switch). Like I said in my reply to Shoashannah: Windows requires constant maintenance to keep in working in order. Even if you're a complete rookie. In Linux, if you are a complete rookie which an expert gave you some Linux maintenance 101, then your maintenance problems are over. If you're a Power User and like to tinker with your system, then things may temporarily break. But it shouldn't happen to the Aunt Tillie type people like your Mom. And when it does, a quick web-search/forums usually resolve it. A guru like me, can expect a lot of breakage. But for the clueful Aunt Tillie type Linux just works and works and works. systems). But for example, if you browse the web with a vulnerable browser, that allows malicious sites to execute code on your machine, then all the firewalls in the world won't prevent your machine from getting infected by a trojan. Actually current firewalls/proxies and routing boxes DO scan for viruses and melicious code while you surf as well. Dig the network for specific examples, I can't remember them off the top of my head. Then let me invoke Turing's Theorem here, and claim that it's impossible to build a computer program that will find all such malicious codes. It can search for well known patterns, but once new patterns emerge, you'll be at risk until an update. I heard a rumour that a research claimed an unprotected Windows box (don't know about XP SP2) takes less than 20 minutes of Internet connection to become infected with malware. Some default installations of Linux has seens months without a single intrusion. Possibly. However, the possibility always remains. And since the source code is available, there's more possibility than someone among the many developers interested in open-source will do that for you in time. With closed-source software you have to rely on the vendor's whims. Again - both of us seem to view these matters just the same but, again - as far as his target audience is concerned, the paragraph above might as well be writen in Kazakh script from the 1st century BC, and sang as a Haiku Liryc. They won't understand even the basic terms used in it (source code, developers, open-source, closed-source), let along the relations between them and what's wrong with it. Get down to earth for these people if you want to win them over. Let's just say that with Open Source Software (a definition soon to be defined) like all the components of a common (GNU/)Linux system everyone can modify it and incoroporate his changes in the distributed version, and so either you can find someone knowledgable to do it, or someone will do it eventually. I used small words here. 2. Price - no need to pay for anything including upgrades. All software can be installed from the base system. How is BSA doing these days in Israel? Not a big point for OSS (yet?). Still, if you install a non-legit version of Windows, you cannot use Windows Which most people do at home today. Upgrade (without various tricks). You cannot get support
Re: Moving to Linux
On Mon, May 09, 2005, Amos Shapira wrote about Re: Moving to Linux: ... Debian (and other distro's) convenience is that it packages many utilities and add-ons in an easy uniform interface to download/install/config. This should be possible to do also on Windows (there is nothing special about the Linux kernel), only it haven't been done yet. People can probably come up with many reasons (one I can think of is the proprietary and non-free-as-in-speech nature of the licenses of most Windows utilities). Interestingly, when it comes to Unix-like software for Windows, such a tool does exist: cygwin. Not using cygwin (or windows) for a few years, and recently trying it out again, I was surprised to find out that it switched to a model very similar to the Linux distribution model (like apt or yum), where you have a utility that can list the available packages, download one for you, update all the packages that you have installed, all automatically. I see no reason why this mechanism should be specific to Unix-like software - it could be theoretically also be used for classic Windows software. Why hashn't it, though? I can think of several possible reasons. None of them are very strong, so this situation is very likely to change in the future. 1. Much of the available Windows software is not free. Automatically installing such software might not be very useful. 2. Most, or nearly all, of the available Windows software doesn't come with source code. Repackaging it becomes very hard (if at all legal), so the user will need to continue to deal with the packaging idosyncharsies of individual programs (installation menus, directories, dlls, etc.) without the distribution being able to normalize these issues for the user. 3. One of the biggest strengths of Windows over Linux is exactly in the fact that its software distribution isn't centralized like in Linux (where users have grown accustomed to getting all their software from the distribution). When you buy some peripheral for your computer, you get a CD-ROM with a Windows (only) driver. When some new startup creates a software, they usually create (only) a Windows version on their site. A centralized distribution, even if big as Debian, can hardly match this sort of variety. -- Nadav Har'El|Monday, May 9 2005, 30 Nisan 5765 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |The two rules for success are: 1. Never http://nadav.harel.org.il |tell them everything you know. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
