Re: [WSG] lazyweb://schema.agnostic.URLs

[Seona Bellamy]

On 10 November 2010 19:22, Russ Weakley r...@maxdesign.com.au wrote:

  Not quite:
 
 
 http://www.stevesouders.com/blog/2010/02/10/5a-missing-schema-double-download/

 Yikes! It all seemed so easy... suspiciously easy!  :)


That last post from a Microsoft guy was interesting though. He says Until
recently there was a bug... Does that mean it's fixed? Or that it's going
to be fixed in IE9 and everything prior can go hang? Or that they've just
re-classified it so that it's not a bug anymore?

~Seona


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Re: [WSG] CSS Expandable Menu

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi Grant,

You're meaning the sort of tree-menu arrangements that have a little plus
next to items with children, and clicking the plus makes the children appear
and push the other elements further down, right?

I don't believe what you're looking for is possible, as that sort of
hierarchical menu requires changes that stick rather than just activating
on hover. CSS just isn't designed to do that sort of thing.

Then again, JavaScript doesn't automatically mean inaccessible. What
concerns in particular did you have about JS making the menu inaccessible?

Cheers,

Seona.

On 29 June 2010 09:30, grant_malcolm_bai...@westnet.com.au wrote:


 Hello,

 I would be grateful if someone could clarify whether there is such a thing
 as a pure CSS expandable menu. The sort of thing I'm looking for is the
 expandable / collapsible hierachy commonly shown in the left-hand frame of
 Windows programs such as Explorer or Outlook.

 I'm trying to avoid use of Javascript due to accessibility concerns.

 Thank you and regards,

 Grant Bailey

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Re: [WSG] using skip links

[Seona Bellamy]

2009/5/13 Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com

 Thanks Jon. It's not really a promotion, but more like a related sub
 content. Ideally I'd like it to be placed after the actual content, but the
 design had to be this way.


Don't forget, just because the design says something has to be in a certain
place doesn't necessarily mean it has to be in that place in the source.
Particularly if the promotions section will be a fixed size, you could
look at using CSS to shift it into position and so allow it to be anywhere
in the source that you want it to be.

Just food for thought...

~Seona


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Re: [WSG] Floating a sub-list level with it's parent list

[Seona Bellamy]

2009/3/6 Robert Turner r...@flexadata.com

  Why not make the entire nav element (mainNav) positioned absolute? I'd
 probably use a div to contain the parent ul (if you are not already
 doing this). I'd start with something like:

 .mainNav {
 /* nav at top right of screen */
 position: absolute;
 top: 0px;
 right: 0px;
 }

 The sub modules would then be rendered inside the parent nav. The sub
 modules can also have a left margin to control indent:

 .subMod {
 margin-left: Xpx; /* or use Xem to scale with screen resolutions/font
 sizes */
 }

 I hope this is the info you are after?


The trouble with this is that I can't find a way to make the rest of the
site respect the length of these lists if they are absolutely positioned.
They are not navs that site at the top anything of the screen, they're
actually a sitemap and so will be two vertical lists sitting side-by-side on
the page. (Sorry if I forgot to make that clear in my original email!)

So if they are absolutely positioned, the content area folds up behind the
lists and they end up overlapping the footer. And because the list contents
are based on the pages created in the CMS, I'm reluctant to lock it into a
fixed height in case they add more pages after we turn it over to them and
go back to the overlapping problem.

If you know of any way to clear absolutely positioned elements similarly
to the way floats can be cleared, I'd love to hear them. I can't find
anything online myself.

Cheers,

Seona.


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[WSG] Floating a sub-list level with it's parent list

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

I'm in a bit of a bind here. I have a nested list that I have no control
over - it's coming out of the CMS with this hierarchy and I can't change
that. Here is an example of the unstyled list:

- Main Navigation
--- Page 1
--- Page 2
--- Page 3
--- Subscriber Modules
- Module 1
- Module 2
- Module 3
- Module 4

So as you can see, Subscriber Modules sits at the same level as the pages
and has its own sub-list of modules.

The trouble comes when I get asked to have the two lists (pages and
subscriber modules) displaying side-by-side. I've managed to give the two
top level li's (Main Navigation and Subscriber Modules) different
classes, so I can treat them differently from standard list items, but
making them line up beside each other is proving problematic.

First I tried:
.mainNav {
  float: left;
}
.subMod {
  float: right;
}

The trouble with this is that the .subMod list is only moved off to the
right from where it was - it still sits below all the pages. The only way to
get it level with the top of the .mainNav list would be to move it a set
amount upwards, and since there can be a variable number of pages that is
just not practical.

So then I tried:

.mainNav {
  position: relative;
}
.subMod {
  position: absolute;
  top: 0;
  right: 0;
}

This works fine to get them lining up correctly, but since there are more
subscriber modules than pages the bottom of the list doesn't appear in the
correct place. So I went searching for information on clearing absolutely
positioned elements. I found this page (
http://www.shauninman.com/archive/2006/05/22/clearance_position_inline_absolute)
which looked promising, but it requires setting the position of the tallest
element to relative and in this case that is the one that needs to be
absolute.

Can anyone suggest a way that I can bring these two lists into the format
I've been requested to?

Cheers,

Seona.


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Re: [WSG] Validating (X)HTML + ARIA

[Seona Bellamy]

2009/1/21 Anthony Ziebell anth...@fatpublisher.com.au:
 Someone mentioned using JavaScript to implement ARIA parameters. This is a
 good idea... but just how accessible would that be to a vision impaired
 visitor with JavaScript turned off?

I think the idea behind it is that because you also have server-side
validation in place (which causes a full screen-refresh, so screen
readers known that something has changed anyway) then if the user has
JavaScript turned off they still won't miss anything. Sure they won't
get the ARIA stuff, but neither will they get the JavaScript DOM
changes that made it necessary in the first place.

That's my understanding, anyway...

~Seona.


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Re: [WSG] Federal Court hearing re Virgin Blue website accessiblity

[Seona Bellamy]

2009/1/20 Chris Dimmock chris.dimm...@gmail.com:
 Did anyone else see this??

 http://www.propellerglobal.com/news/News/128/virgin-blue-to-court-again-for-discrimination

 http://www.theage.com.au/travel/virgin-blue-in-court-over-website-20090119-7kc1.html

 Been a while since SOCOG..

Yes, this one went around the office since apparently this guy tried
poking some websites managed by one of our sister-companies.

It will be interesting to see how this one fares in the courts, given
that there is now a precedent. Not sure if the fact that Virgin Blue
say they have already been working with and getting advice from Vision
Australia on this matter will make a difference in their favour or
not, either.

I just can't get over the fact that he seems to have nothing better to
do that patrol the web looking for accessibility offenders (over 30,00
sites??!!). Someone really needs to get out more...

~Seona


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Re: [WSG] is there a way to force legend text shows in TWO lines?

[Seona Bellamy]

2008/11/27 tee [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 2) I have a column that is 160px wide, but the text in legend is a bit
 longer, I added a span class, declared a width, but in Firefox, the text
 still refuse to run in two lines - the rest of the text simply get cut off
 when the words reaches 160px threshold. I really don't want to add a br /,
 and it will be more ridiculous to use a p tag for the text so that I can
 force it display exactly the way my client wanted, then use a negative
 text-indent to hide the legend.

I can't be 100% sure on this, since I haven't played around much with
it, but one thing sprang out at me. I didn't think you could declare a
width on an inline element like a span unless you also set its display
to block. Could that be the problem here? If adding display:block to
your span works, then it is indeed a case of Firefox doing the right
thing an dthe others not. ;)

Cheers,

Seona.


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Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page

[Seona Bellamy]

Hmm... not really an option here. It needs to have the potential to
appear on any page, so that if someone finds an internal page through
Google or gets a link sent to them by a friend, they still see the
disclaimer / warning.

At the moment I've sort of solved the problem for users with JS - if
the disclaimer is showing, I set the body's overflow to hidden so you
can't scroll. It still means that non-JS users get that ugly cut-off,
though. I'll live with it if I have to, but would certainly prefer not
to have to. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

2008/7/31 Adam Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 The easiest way would be to have an entry page instead.

 On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Seona Bellamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 I've had no trouble making the div that sits on top of everything
 extend to the height of the viewport, but if the page extends beyond
 that then you see normal (and clickable) page as soon as you scroll.
 Don't want that, if possible.

 Does anyone have any idea of the most reasonable way to do this? I
 want to try and give the full experience to as many as possible.


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Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page

[Seona Bellamy]

What, and divert them to the agreement page if they'rve not agreed?
Hmm... not sure that I'll get the go-ahead to do that. We're working
to some fairly tight design requirements.

I've already got it saving the session variable once they agree, so
that they only get bothered once.

Cheers,

Seona.

2008/7/31 Luke Hoggett [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Depending on what/whether you're using anything server side, just set a
 session variable that records whether the person has agreed to the terms, do
 this across every page and no worries for Google or any other entry that
 doesn't come from the front page.

 regards
 Luke


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Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page

[Seona Bellamy]

That's already what I'm doing. Not the problem here, though. The issue
isn't whether the overlay and disclaimer appear - I have that bit
working just fine. The issue is making the overlay extend all the way
to the bottom of the page if the page is longer than the viewport.

Cheers,

Seona.

2008/7/31 Luke Hoggett [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Doesn't have to be a separate divert page, you can just use the session
 variable to decided whether the overlay element is displayed on each page

 regards
 Luke

 Seona Bellamy wrote:

 What, and divert them to the agreement page if they'rve not agreed?
 Hmm... not sure that I'll get the go-ahead to do that. We're working
 to some fairly tight design requirements.

 I've already got it saving the session variable once they agree, so
 that they only get bothered once.

 Cheers,

 Seona.

 2008/7/31 Luke Hoggett [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 Depending on what/whether you're using anything server side, just set a
 session variable that records whether the person has agreed to the terms, do
 this across every page and no worries for Google or any other entry that
 doesn't come from the front page.

 regards
 Luke


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Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page

[Seona Bellamy]

True. I'm already doing that via JS, so at least the majority of
people will not see an ugly cut-off with the page showing normally
beneath it.

It would be nicer to have a non-JS solution, though. I mean, even
though scrolling down and clicking a link in the footer won't help
them bypass the security (since the session variable won't be set,
they'll just get the same message on the new page) it's still messy
and inelegant.


2008/7/31 Сергей Кириченко [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 no JS - no decision ;)

 2008/7/31 Tony McNulty [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Hmm,

 What about just making it the size of the viewport, and stopping
 scrolling? Maybe an overflow: hidden on the body?

 Cheers,

 Tony
 -Original Message-
 From: Seona Bellamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:48:48
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page


 That's already what I'm doing. Not the problem here, though. The issue
 isn't whether the overlay and disclaimer appear - I have that bit
 working just fine. The issue is making the overlay extend all the way
 to the bottom of the page if the page is longer than the viewport.

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Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page

[Seona Bellamy]

You know, that's a very good point... putting it inside the if-block
so that it only runs on pages where the message is showing.

Tony, you're a legend. :) Thanks.

2008/7/31 Tony McNulty [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 But that doesn't stop you from adding more css in the markup for this
 feature, to override the default styles.

 
 From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:09:30 +0400
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page
 no JS - no decision ;)

 2008/7/31 Tony McNulty [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Hmm,

 What about just making it the size of the viewport, and stopping
 scrolling? Maybe an overflow: hidden on the body?

 Cheers,

 Tony
 -Original Message-
 From: Seona Bellamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:48:48
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page


 That's already what I'm doing. Not the problem here, though. The issue
 isn't whether the overlay and disclaimer appear - I have that bit
 working just fine. The issue is making the overlay extend all the way
 to the bottom of the page if the page is longer than the viewport.

 Cheers,

 Seona.

 2008/7/31 Luke Hoggett [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  Doesn't have to be a separate divert page, you can just use the session
  variable to decided whether the overlay element is displayed on each
  page
 
  regards
  Luke
 
  Seona Bellamy wrote:
 
  What, and divert them to the agreement page if they'rve not agreed?
  Hmm... not sure that I'll get the go-ahead to do that. We're working
  to some fairly tight design requirements.
 
  I've already got it saving the session variable once they agree, so
  that they only get bothered once.
 
  Cheers,
 
  Seona.
 
  2008/7/31 Luke Hoggett [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
 
  Depending on what/whether you're using anything server side, just set a
  session variable that records whether the person has agreed to the
  terms, do
  this across every page and no worries for Google or any other entry that
  doesn't come from the front page.
 
  regards
  Luke


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Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page

[Seona Bellamy]

*grin* Than thanks to you as well, Luke, and sorry I was missing your point. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

2008/7/31 Luke Hoggett [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 exactly, I realise now that this was implicit in my reply, rather than
 explicit.
 I bow to Tony as a better communicator than I.

 regards
 Luke

 Seona Bellamy wrote:

 You know, that's a very good point... putting it inside the if-block
 so that it only runs on pages where the message is showing.

 Tony, you're a legend. :) Thanks.

 2008/7/31 Tony McNulty [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 But that doesn't stop you from adding more css in the markup for this
 feature, to override the default styles.

 
 From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:09:30 +0400
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page
 no JS - no decision ;)

 2008/7/31 Tony McNulty [EMAIL PROTECTED]


 Hmm,

 What about just making it the size of the viewport, and stopping
 scrolling? Maybe an overflow: hidden on the body?

 Cheers,

 Tony
 -Original Message-
 From: Seona Bellamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:48:48
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] 100% height over existing page


 That's already what I'm doing. Not the problem here, though. The issue
 isn't whether the overlay and disclaimer appear - I have that bit
 working just fine. The issue is making the overlay extend all the way
 to the bottom of the page if the page is longer than the viewport.

 Cheers,

 Seona.

 2008/7/31 Luke Hoggett [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 Doesn't have to be a separate divert page, you can just use the session
 variable to decided whether the overlay element is displayed on each
 page

 regards
 Luke

 Seona Bellamy wrote:

 What, and divert them to the agreement page if they'rve not agreed?
 Hmm... not sure that I'll get the go-ahead to do that. We're working
 to some fairly tight design requirements.

 I've already got it saving the session variable once they agree, so
 that they only get bothered once.

 Cheers,

 Seona.

 2008/7/31 Luke Hoggett [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 Depending on what/whether you're using anything server side, just set a
 session variable that records whether the person has agreed to the
 terms, do
 this across every page and no worries for Google or any other entry that
 doesn't come from the front page.

 regards
 Luke


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[WSG] 100% height over existing page

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

I need to create an absolutely positioned div that will float on top
of the existing page layout, and be 100% of the height of the rendered
page, not the viewport. Something similar to what Lightbox does -
greying out the page and displaying a box over it. The trouble is,
because it's to display some legal stuff (of the this site contains
medical information that some people might find offensive or
disturbing variety) I don't want to use Lightbox (or any of its
variants) because it relies on JavaScript. Anyone who doesn't have JS
simply won't see the warning and that just doesn't seem like a good
idea.

I've had no trouble making the div that sits on top of everything
extend to the height of the viewport, but if the page extends beyond
that then you see normal (and clickable) page as soon as you scroll.
Don't want that, if possible.

Does anyone have any idea of the most reasonable way to do this? I
want to try and give the full experience to as many as possible.

Cheers,

Seona.


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Re: [WSG] Validation

[Seona Bellamy]

At a guess, I'd say that the problem is caused by having your
javascript in the head of your document, which makes the validator try
to parse it (and so find li's in the head, where no li's should
be).

Simplest solution would be to move your javascript into an external
file and just link it into the head instead.

Cheers,

Seona.

2008/6/19 Fuji kusaka [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Can someone help me out with this validation?

 this is a javascript for my menu which is inside my html page.


 Line 154, Column 39: document type does not allow element li here.

 $back = $('li class=backdiv
 class=left/div/li').appendTo

 ✉

 The element named above was found in a context where it is not allowed. This
 could mean that you have incorrectly nested elements -- such as a style
 element in the body section instead of inside head -- or two elements
 that overlap (which is not allowed).

 One common cause for this error is the use of XHTML syntax in HTML
 documents. Due to HTML's rules of implicitly closed elements, this error can
 create cascading effects. For instance, using XHTML's self-closing tags
 for meta and link in the head section of a HTML document may cause the
 parser to infer the end of the head section and the beginning of the
 body section (where link and meta are not allowed; hence the reported
 error).

 --
 Fuji kusaka
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Re: [WSG] Serving Different Content to Returning Visitors

[Seona Bellamy]

On 27/07/07, Daniel Kendrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I am curious if there is a way to serve up different pages to returning
visitors so its different than that of a first time visitor.

I would like to avoid cookies all together. But if I must I must.



I'm assuming you're talking about immediate page content, as opposed to
allowing visitors to log in?

I can't think of any reliable way of doing this without cookies, and even
that's not fail-safe since some people have their system set to not accept
cookies or to delete them immediately on browser close.

Cheers,

Seona.


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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

[Seona Bellamy]

On 12/07/07, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Yep and i would totally agree, but try telling that to marvin and youll
confuse
the poor guy, i was keeping things very simple for him/her.

From past knowledge, if your to add jargon (which it is to marvin here)
you
would do more damage then good at this stage.

But yep Hassan is right. This is why many companies will take on people
from different feilds and not an All In One guy.

So again, you need to decide on what it is you want to do, and dont try to

take on the world, you will loose, i tryed, i lost and im sure alot of us
here
have.

Its actually good to accept that not many people can be all rounders and
keep
up will all the new conventions, updates, bugs ect in all the different
fields.

Do the one, or two, and be brilliant at it.



The trouble is that if this is part of a university/college course, then you
don't get a choice. I mean, I knew what I wanted to specialise in, but I had
to do all sorts of things during my degree course just so I could get that
little piece of paper at the end. And while I technically didn't have to do
brilliantly at all of them (except for the sake of my academic pride!) I did
at least have to do well enough at all of them to pass.

Any sort of schooling tends to try and turn out all-rounders. If you want to
specialise, then do some independent study (certification courses, etc) once
you have your bit of paper. :) Or, during, if you're as impatient as I am
and can't be bothered waiting.

~Seona.


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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

[Seona Bellamy]

On 05/07/07, Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I like Bruce's suggestion for a break down, but he too acknowledges the
grey area around development. And I'd say that once you touch the db,
you are definitely back end, not front end.

In the end I guess I question the validity of defining developers in
terms of front end and back end. Can we just stick to designers and
developers?



I must admit, I tend to categorise work as front-end or back-end based on
whether or not a database (or some other data repository, such as complex
XML files) is involved. As soon as you're doing anything more than a
static web page, it's moved into back-end territory.

My definition of designer vs developer is these days coloured by the company
I'm working for. The designers are the people who come up with the ideas and
the layouts and the graphics. The developers are the people who write code,
be that (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript, ColdFusion, PHP, etc.

And as with everything in this industry, there are a lot of grey areas in
both sets of definitions. Some of our designers, for example, are starting
to learn a bit about (X)HTML and CSS and are providing us with basic style
sheets along with the design proofs so that we at least start with all of
the colours and sizes that they had in mind. We then tweak them as we work
to play around with positioning and all of the other complex stuff.

Just my thoughts, anyway. :)

Cheers,

Seona.


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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

[Seona Bellamy]

On 05/07/07, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Seona Bellamy wrote:
 My definition of designer vs developer is these days coloured by the
 company I'm working for. The designers are the people who come up with
 the ideas and the layouts and the graphics. The developers are the
 people who write code, be that (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript, ColdFusion,
 PHP, etc.
although i would like to think of myself as a developer, i guess i'm
really a designer.  i write (x)html and css, but have little or no
experience with php, mysql or javascript.  so i write mostly static
pages, but the clientèle i write for don't need much in a dynamic web
site; however, that should not prevent me from learning php, javascript
and mysql.

so i guess you could say i'm a front-end developer due to certain
lacking skills to make me a full fledged developer.



That's probably a fair enough assessment, although I don't think you should
compare being a front-end developer to being a fully-fledged developer as
if the former were necessarily a bad thing. As you say, if your clients
don't demand much beyond static pages, then that is what you are going to
build.

On the other hand, I do agree that it shouldn't prevent you from learning
the other side of things, if for no other reason than that you'll be
prepared if a client comes along who DOES want more than a static site. And,
of course, you'd also have the option to try upselling some of your existing
clients. ;)

Cheers,

Seona.


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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

[Seona Bellamy]

On 05/07/07, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 i wouldn't advertise the fact i can do 'ALL' the jobs on my own in the
same time it
 would take a team of developers. To much hard work, so little money.

That's an interesting point in itself. Should you try to be a
one-stop-shop? It's certainly a lot easier for the client, but how
good can anyone's skills be if spread over five or six disciplines? I
speak as someone who discovered the double field in MySQL only last
week.



That's a really good point. Having worked for myself for a number of years,
trying to be a one-stop-shop, I can vouch for the fact that it's almost
impossible to be great at everything. This was highlighted for me when I
started subbing out the design work to a graphic artist friend of mine. I
tend to sum up my skills these days as I can make sites that look good, but
a trained graphic artist can make sites that look WOW! :)

I do agree that it is important to be able to find your way around a
graphics program or two, both so that you can deal with the designs your
graphics person hands you and so that you can speak the same language as
them when you're talking about a job. *grin* Nothing like not understanding
the jargon to open the door to mistakes.

Cheers,

Seona.


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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

[Seona Bellamy]

On 05/07/07, Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


What do the rest of you do? How many of us *don't* have to be a
jack-of-all-trades?



I guess that partly depends how you define all trades. Now that I no
longer have to do graphical work, I simply consider myself a web developer.
That said, this includes working with (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript when I can't
avoid it, ColdFusion, and MS SQL. So some people might consider that being a
bit cross-trade, if you like, because I'm working with both front and and
back end technologies. Because of where I started, though, I see it as being
able to concentrate on what I do best and leaving the pretties to someone
else. ;)

~Seona.


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Re: [WSG] Page Structure

[Seona Bellamy]

On 29/06/07, Sander Aarts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 Sorry, Sander, but that logic escapes me. Of course I don't know what
 goods a certain company sells if I don't know they exist. But I know
 what goods I'm looking for, so that's what I'll search on.

Sometime you're not looking for goods, but just for the
company/organisation.



That's true, but since your company name is likely to be far more unique
than whatever product/service you're providing, the chances are you'll rank
well for it anyway.

But I guess it comes down to what you feel (preferably backed up by a bit of
research) your target audience is likely to be looking for you by. Are you
launching a huge, multi-million dollar branding campaign aimed at making
your company name a household word? Then maybe emphasising your branding on
the site by putting it in h1 tags is the way to go since you are hoping to
get people familiar enough with your name that it's what they'll throw at a
search engine when they want to find you.

Otherwise, the chances are that your products/services are what you're
hoping to use to draw people in. In which case the fact that you sell
Product Y is of far more importance to searchers than the fact that you're
called Company X.





 Not always. If I want to know what campagnes Amnesty International is
 currently running, I don't want to search for every undemocratic
 country in the world.
 You search for the goods or services that you want - don't you?

 Not if you know how to use a search engine, no. And you're presuming
 that I know that Amnesty International exists - which is the whole
 point. What if I don't? I'd search on human rights abuses.

Again, sometimes you want to find info about the organisation itself.
And yes, that means that you already know it exists. But not all
organisations have very distinctive/unique names. Some have these
horrible innitials that can mean anything on the web.



I have no hard data to back this up, but I would guess that most web surfers
these days understand enough about searching to know that if you have a
generic-type word you are looking for (or if the results simply don't give
you what you want) then you add some extra terms to narrow the field. And if
you already know the name of the organisation, the chances are you at least
know a little bit about what they do and so know the sort of things to add
to your search.

But once again it comes back to my first point, and the acknowledgement of
the fact that you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time. Work out
what is most important for a given organisation / site and go with that
option.


Just some random thoughts from me, anyway. :)

Cheers,

Seona.


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Re: [WSG] There's no back button on this website...

[Seona Bellamy]

On 12/04/07, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Put another way, the injunction is don't comply *unthinkingly* with
user requests -- don't give them what they say they want, give them
what they *mean* they want...



That's a very good point. I've often found that outside of the world of
developers, very few people use much of the terminology that we take for
granted when discussing web pages. They know what they want to see happen,
though (sometimes to the dismay of us poor developers!).

I think part of the problem also is that I've noticed that this leads a lot
of developers to assume that most non-developers are stupid. It's sort of
the way some people assume that a person who doesn't speak good English (or
other language of choice) must be stupid because they can't express
themselves as clearly and concisely. So when they encounter a piece of
feedback like This site doesn't have a back button their automatic
reaction is to think What a moron! Can't they see that there's a back
button in the browser toolbar? Ah well, I'm catering to the lowest common
denominator so I guess I'd better put in a button that will duplicate this
basic function... and they don't even consider that there could be anything
more to it. The person is obviously an idiot, so why probe further?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that every developer thinks like this,
but I've encountered a depressing number who do over the years.

Cheers,

Seona.


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Re: [WSG] pop-up - onblur question

[Seona Bellamy]

On 30/03/07, Donna Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Have the href attribute point at something sensible (not #). Have the
 JavaScript do what you want, and return false from it to prevent the
 link being followed.

i suppose i understand what you're saying but i don't know javascript, i
don't know the syntax, so pretty impossible for me to implement.



I think he's suggesting something along these lines:

a href=mypage.html onclick=window.open(this.href);return false;Click
me/a

To break it down:

* By putting the page you're linking to in the href, it means that folks
without JS can still get to your content - it simply won't open in a new
page for them.
* The onclick attribute says that when the link is activated, do the things
in the quotes.
* window.open(this.href); tells it to open the page in this tag's href in a
new window. You can look up the syntax for this via Google if you want to
learn about all the other parameters you can set for the new window (just
throw window.open at Google and you'll get a bunch of useful pages).
* return false; tells it that after it's opened that new window, don't do
anything else. Without this, your page will open in a new window and also in
the original window. And because it's JS, it makes absolutely no difference
to the people with JS off or unavailable. The link will fire as normal and
they'll get the page in the current window.

Of course, if you wanted to be really clever about it (and more conscious of
keeping the presentation and behaviour layers separate) you'd write a
function that would attach this to the link without the need to have it
hard-coded in like this. All you'd do is create an href link as normal and
give it a class or id. That you'll need someone else to explain to you,
since I know how to borrow code to make this happen but don't fully
understand how it works. ;)

Cheers,

Seona.


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Re: [WSG] Employee Hierarchy in CSS

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi Sarah,

Haven't got time to work this up properly, but what about something like:

div id=tier1
 spanMD information in here/span
/div
div id=tier2
 spanGM information in here/span
 spanFinancial Controller information in here/span
 spanPA information in here/span
/div
div id=tier3
 spanManager 1 information in here/span
 spanManager 2 information in here/span
 ...
 spanManager 7 Information in here/span
/div

I've used DIVs and SPANs here as generic elements, but you can use
whatever will work best for your structure (such as the DLs or ULs
mentioned earlier, or whatever).

The idea is that then you could do something like:

#tier1 span {
 width: 100%;
 display: block;
 text-align: center;
}
#tier2 span {
 width: 33%; display: block;
 float: left;
 text-align: center;
}
#tier3 span {
 width: 14%;
 display: block;
 float: left;
 text-align: center;
}

The display block is needed only if your wrapper is an inline element
such as a span - you can't apply widths (or floats, I think) to inline
elements.

It might need some fiddling, since it's untested, but see if it helps you any.

Cheers,

Seona.
On 17/03/06, Sarah Peeke (XERT) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Micky, Why do you want to present an empty container?As I already (perhaps badly) explained, I need to show a visualhierarchy of employees.The first row has the MD.The second row the GM, Financial Controller and PA.
The third row all other Managers (7 in total).I need to keep the MD (in the first row) in the middle of the row.The second row will have some gaps as there are only 3 staff.The third row has seven Managers.
All of this needs to be centered on the page. UL LI PDFNIMGCAPTION/P or UL LI DFNIMGPCAPTION/P/LI
Not sure how these examples improve the elegance of the solution. I do not see the need for classes, at least not 2 classes, one (for that exception you mention) would suffice.Understood. I hadn't finalised the css, just wanted to show how my code
differed from Russ's.Any other ideas please?Sarah--XERT Communicationsemail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]office: +61 2 4782 3104mobile: 0438 017 416
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Re: [WSG] Styling Fieldset and Legend Elements

[Seona Bellamy]

On 07/03/06, Darren West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would advise against * html hacks though - http://www.webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2005_12.html#a000598
Daz

On 07/03/06, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Don't know, but the following addition makes it look pretty ok in my IE6...* html legend {margin: 0 -6px; display: block;}


Put it in a conditional comment instead. Then you can even target IE6 specifically, and everyone's happy. :)


Seona.

Re: [WSG] tableless layout stuff

[Seona Bellamy]

On 07/03/06, Jack Pivac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But does anyone have any idea how to put that alongside the title andimage etc without using a table? or should i just use a table?
The simplest way would be to wrap the bits you want to have on the left
(title, pic, price, etc) in some sort of containing element such as a
div and float it left. 

I'd suggest floating your green paragraph to the right, but that would
require it to come first in the source I believe, and that's probably
not a good idea. If nothing else, it will realy confuse people who
don't get the benefit of CSS (older browsers, text browser, screen
readers, etc) to see the details before the title! ;)

Cheers,

Seona.

Re: [WSG] tableless layout stuff

[Seona Bellamy]

On 07/03/06, Jack Pivac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The simplest way would be to wrap the bits you want to have on the left (title, pic, price, etc) in some sort of containing element such as a div and float it left.but if i float it left.. then doesn't that mean i have the wrap the
whole lot in another div.. and overflow: auto; that, which requires awidth for it to work in IE... but was after a more liquid layout...Open to any ideas.
I'm not sure why you feel you need to use overflow:auto... Wrap them in
a div, yes, and then give it a width based on one of two factors:
1) If the image will always be the same width and you want the details
to sit fairly close beside them, make the div a little wider than the
image (eg: if the image is 100px, make the div 120px).
2) Give the div a width of, say 50% or some other percentage - that way
it will always occupy a relative amount of space regardless of the
width of the content block and the details will all line up neatly in
the other half of the page.

All you need to do then is use some sort of clearing element ( I tend
to favour PIE's Easy Clearing method [1]) under the details to make
content below respect the height of the floated bits.

Cheers,

Seona.

[1] http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html

Re: [WSG] form button css

[Seona Bellamy]

On 28/02/06, Ted Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
#foo form { text-align:center; padding:0; }#foo label { color:#fff; font-size:85%; margin:0 5px; font-weight:bold; }#foo input{ margin:0 5px;}#foo button {border:none; height:23px; background:none; padding:0 0 0 0;
margin:6px 0 -6px 0;}
Just a suggestion... is there anywhere else in your css where you're
applying some margins or padding to img? Maybe try adding
something like:

#foo button img { margin: 0; padding: 0; }

It might make a difference, but it's hard to know without seeing the rest of the code.

Cheers,

Seona.

Re: [WSG] Breadcrumb as Section Heading H1

[Seona Bellamy]

On 21/02/06, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm thinking out aloud here: not sure why, but using a list forbreadcrumbs doesn't quite sit right with me, despite it being a type ofnavigation device. I think it is due to list structures replacing thedir and menu elements - and the notion that the site hierarchy
represented as links is distinctly different from a navigation menu.Anyone else have thoughts on this?
I certainly don't claim to be an expert on this, but I think that using
an ordered list for breadcrumbs works. You're basically presenting the
user with a list of links that have a definied order: this link comes
after that link comes after that link.

I suppose that if you wanted to get really semantically precise you could do something like:

ol id=breadcrumb
 liSite root
 ol
 liSection
 ol
 liSub-Section/li
 /ol
 /li
 /ol
 /li
/ol

This would certainly represent a hierarchical breadcrumb (assuming the
type of breadcrumb that shows the site hierarchy, not a history-type
one) very accurately, but it seems like an awful lot of code for
something relatively simple.

But maybe that's just me...

Cheers,

Seona.

[WSG] DL for Form display misaligning in IE/Win

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

I've been using this technique for styling DLs to take my forms:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/dl-table-display.htm

Everything was working fine, I though, but I've just had it pointed out
to me that one of the forms is acting oddly. Instead of aligning nicely
with their respective DTs like they do everywhere else, the DDs are
shifting up to sit directly under the DD above. This means that the
form isn't looking logical, since there's a disassociation between the
label and the field.

Can someone please have a look and tell me why this is happening? I'm
really confused, especially since other forms in the site (which are
using the same class) are working just fine.

Page: http://staging.renovate.com.au/classified/index.cfm
CSS: http://staging.renovate.com.au/_resources/css/cont_Default.css

Cheers,

Seona.

Re: [WSG] Questions about Data Tables and Accessibility

[Seona Bellamy]

Well, I can't answer all of your questions, but I'll do what I can to get the ball rolling. :)


2. How to tell when one table or two tables is better? When is it better
to split up the data? What happens if you have two columns with the same name? Is this badtable structure? I have two colgroups that contain the same information, just placing the information in different units. Should I split that
into one table for one unit, and another table for the next unit?
Would it make sense to give them each a different heading, for example:
width (cm) and width (in)? Not exactly sure what your requirements
are, or even exactly what your data is or is about, but it is something
to consider.

I think seperate tables is probably overkill, especially if there's a
lot of other information in the table that would simple be duplicated.

3. Are colgroups only for presentation or is there some way to use them to demarcate which data has closer relationships? Are there ids, headers
or something involved? How is it done? Is there some sort of way that someone using theaccessibility features can choose one or other colgroup?
I believe they do help accessibility in the way you're describing, but
I'm not entirely sure of the technicailities of it. But, for example,
if you split your two columns mentioned above into seperate headers, it
might make sense to put them in a colgroup together.
4. In what order do headers go on table cell data?Does this matter?

Not entirely sure what you mean here. Do you mean how they are read by a screen reader? 
7. What is the best thing to do? To place scope or headers, or scope andheaders?

I favour scope and headers. It's mainly for the use of screen readers, since I believe most of them will:
a) use a different inflection or otherwise make it obvious when something is a header rather than just data, and
b) alter the way they read the table based on the header's scope.
So it's a way of making a large and complex table much easier to follow
for someone who can't see the physical relationships between each cell.
Hope this helps a little.

Cheers,

Seona.

Re: [WSG] No style

[Seona Bellamy]

On 31/01/06, Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:





Is there any way to 
specify in CSS that a certain area is to have no style at 
all.

Let's say I have my 
global style sheet where I style my ph1 etc. but on one page I 
have a div with id #editableArea
I want that div to 
have no style applied that is defined in the style sheet, is that 
possible?
 

One possible solution would be not so much to have 'no style' but to
have a blanket basic style in that div. So for example, you might do
something like:

#editableArea * {
 font-size: 1em;
 margin: 0;
 padding: 3px;
}

That would make all of the content of that div, regardless of what it
was (a p, a heading, no element, etc) adopt those same rules. It would
give you uniformity across the contents which is, I believe, what
you're looking for.

Cheers,

Seona.

Re: [WSG] No style

[Seona Bellamy]

On 01/02/06, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That's still going to be 1em of whatever 1em becomes by the time youget down to #editableArea (i.e. 1em of (x) on #editableArea of (y) on#body of (z) on #html), isn't it?
Hmm... good point. Might need some tweaking, but I'm not sure how.

[WSG] Equal Height Columns vanishing in IE

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

I'm using the Equal Height Columns technique from PIE's 'One True
Layout', along with the Any Order Columns technique from the same. It
works fine in Firefox, and used to work fine in IE, too. That was when
I was using the Jello Mold technique to size the site. Now, however,
the word from on high is that they want it to just be a fixed width
layout. Fine. No problem. I edited the style sheet and removed the
superfluous divs.

IE hates me (and it's mutual). It's not showing any of the content
columns, and just displaying the footer right under the header.

Can someone please have a quick peek and tell me why this is happening?
I can't seem to find what I've done wrong, and I'm sure it's just that
I've removed something I shouldn't have.

Page: http://staging.renovate.com.au
CSS: http://staging.renovate.com.au/_resources/pageShell.css

Cheers,

Seona.

[WSG] Allowing users to select and sort items

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

I'm wanting to create an interface similar to the one I've taken a screen shot of here:
http://www.staging.renovate.com.au/example.png
(this is from My Yahoo! when you go into Change Layout)

In my case, I only need to have the ordering on the right-hand box. The
left-hand box will contain a list of all possible items that can be
added. You can select an item there and shift it over to the right-hand
box. Then you can change the order of the items in the right-hand box,
or remove something from the box and send it back to the left.

I've tried looking on Google for some tutorials on this, but I really
have no idea of what to call it so I'm not getting very far. I've tried
looking at Yahoo!'s code, but it's so huge and complex that I'm really
not sure what parts are relevant to me or how I'd go about adapting
them.

Can someone please point me in the direction of a few choice resources
or provide me with some code snippets for this? I'm pretty sure I've
seen something along these lines before, but I just can't find it.

Cheers,

Seona.

[WSG] Margin being inherited. Why?

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

I'm trying to figure out why one single form element is inheriting the
left margin of the containing div in spite of the fact that I'm setting
it to a different value further down the stylesheet.

Page: http://staging.renovate.com.au/admin
CSS: http://staging.renovate.com.au/_resources/admin.css

The problem element is the text area labeled Content.

Please ignore that the form is currently in a table. I'm planning to fix that eventually, but I wanted to get this sorted first.

Cheers,

Seona.

Re: [WSG] Margin being inherited. Why?

[Seona Bellamy]

On 16/01/06, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Seona Bellamy said: form element is inheriting the left marginYou have conflicting id's for content. Change to the textarea's id tosomething else.
*blush* Whoops

Fixed now. Thanks. :)

Cheers,

Seona. 

Re: [WSG] Jello Mold not working right in IE/Win

[Seona Bellamy]

On 11/01/06, Thomas Livingston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Jan 9, 2006, at 5:25 PM, Seona Bellamy wrote:
Can anyone who is running a larger resolution than 1024x768 please have a look and tell me if the layout is holding up? 


Sorry no time to peek, but I am using this on a current project...#sizer {width:_expression_(document.body.clientWidth
  1554 ? 402px : 75% );}Works great for us...


Thanks for that, Tom. It's certainly better than what I had, in that it
looks a bit more reasonable from a logic point of view, but I'm finding
it's just a touch too narrow. As a result, the last button of my main
navigation is dropping down to the next line.

I would prefer not to have to fiddle with the proportions of the
buttons just for IE, so would it be possible for someone to translate
that _expression_ into plain english for me so I can fiddle with the
numbers instead? I don't understand what they're all doing, so it's
difficult to know where to make the changes I need.

Cheers,

Seona.

Re: [WSG] Jello Mold not working right in IE/Win

[Seona Bellamy]

On 11/01/06, Duckworth, Nigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:







 
Can anyone who is running a 
larger resolution than 1024x768 please have a look and tell me if the layout is 
holding up?

Looks 
good at 1600-1000px. Scrollbar appears at 999px. 
 -Nigel
Thanks Nigel. That's exactly where the scrollbar is supposed to appear.
:) The design is then supposed to be able to expand up to about 1240px
or so, after which it stops getting wider.

That's the theory, anyway

Cheers,

Seona.

Re: [WSG] Dynamic DIV Height

[Seona Bellamy]

On 10/01/06, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thanks for the help Seona,I followed the advice in the URL you sent me andeverything works great. Well, sorta...Adjusting the height created another issue in Opera 8.It's no longer displaying the background image for
#sitewrapper. I'm not sure if it's a bug in Opera 8,or it's due to my inexperience with CSS. I've triedsetting height to 100% in each id selectorand triedvarious arrangements, but that didn't work. anybody
have any advice?

No problems. Sadly, your tinyurl's are no longer working, so I can't
have another look at what you've done. Only thing that comes to mind
off the top of my head is to make sure you included the .clearfix
{display: inline-table;} bit in the easy clearing code. This is an
Opera fix, and it may or may not have something to do with the problem
you're experiencing.

Other than that, not too sure.

Cheers,

Seona.

Re: [WSG] Jello Mold not working right in IE/Win

[Seona Bellamy]

Thanks Scott and Paulo, those were excellent definitions. I understand it a lot better now. So back to fiddling for a while.

Cheers,

Seona.

Re: [WSG] Jello Mold not working right in IE/Win

[Seona Bellamy]

On 09/01/06, Philippe Wittenbergh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I haven't had a look at your page in IE win but noticed one thing inthe source code.In your conditional comment, the width of the _expression_ is set to anegative % value. Don't think that is correct.
 !--[if IE] style type=text/css #sizer { width:_expression_(document.body.clientWidth  0 ? 280px : -28% ); } /style
 ![endif]--
Hmm... good point. This was code generated by the Jello Mold Creator,
and I just copied it with the assumption that it was correct. 

So I've removed the - sign, and that seemed to help a tiny bit. I
started playing with the numbers and eventually came up with:

!--[if IE]
style type=text/css
#sizer {
 width:_expression_(document.body.clientWidth  0 ? 8px : .8% );
}
/style
![endif]--

This makes the scrollbars go away on my screen (I'm running 1024x768,
which is the smallest resolution that the Jello Mold is accommodating -
management decision, not mine). Not sure what it does on larger
screens, however, since this sorry excuse for a computer I'm given
doesn't do anything higher.

Can anyone who is running a larger resolution than 1024x768 please have a look and tell me if the layout is holding up?

Even better, can someone explain to me what the code in this
conditional comment is doing in the first place? According to the
Creator it is to give IE/5/6/Win the _javascript_ hack that helps them
do max-width but I'm not sure how or why. The values I've eventually
come up with seem to make it work, but they don't make any sense. Who's
going to have a window smaller than 8px???

Cheers,

Seona.

[WSG] Jello Mold not working right in IE/Win

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

I've used the Jello Mold Creator at Position Is Everything to handle
the sizing issues for the site I'm redeveloping. Seems to be working
fine in Firefox, but when I opened it in IE I found that it was far too
wide. Ugly sideways scrolling, content vanishing off the right side of
the screen, the works. 

I'm pretty sure that I took everything I needed from the Creator, so
can someone please have a peek and see if they can figure out why IE
isn't behaving nicely?

Page: http://staging.renovate.com.au/
CSS: http://staging.renovate.com.au/_resources/layout.css

Oh, and while you're there, if anyone can tell me why my logo image seems to be centring it would also be appreciated. ;)

Cheers,

Seona.

Re: [WSG] Dynamic DIV Height

[Seona Bellamy]

On 09/01/06, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello everybody!I have two DIV's: DIV A and DIV B.DIV B is inside DIV A.When DIV B has text it expands outside of DIV A(DIV A stays the same height). How can I make it so
DIV A height expands as DIV B height expands?

Your problem is that the contents of your sitewrapper div are
floated. Floating an element takes it out of the normal flow, so the
wrapper doesn't know (or care) how big those floated divs are.

There are several ways around this, but this one is my favourite since
it doesn't involve adding much in the way of extra markup - just a
class on the wrapper div:
http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html

Cheers,

Seona.

Re: [WSG] A floating menu that keeps folding where it shouldn't (repost)

[Seona Bellamy]

Thanks for the advice, guys. I'll have a look into it all and see what
I can do. Or maybe I'll just try and convince my boss that it's not too
long before we completely redesign the site, so we should just wait and
redo it properly then. ;)

Cheers,

Seona.

[WSG] A floating menu that keeps folding where it shouldn't (repost)

[Seona Bellamy]

At least, I think it shouldn't. It doesn't in Firefox anyway, but IE is insisting on not sliding under my banner properly.



Have a look at http://www.renovate.com.au



The issue arises when you view it at 800x600 or so. In Firefox, it all
works nicely and the out-hanging tab in the bottom row slides in under
the logo. In IE, this tab falls to the next line. I'd be prepared to
live with this for now, since we have a major redsign planned for
January anyway, but the boss isn't happy. Therefore, I'm charged with
fixing it.



I've fiddled around, I've tried installed IE's Web Developer Toolbar
(which didn't help and eventually crashed IE, but that's another
story), and I cannot figure out what is going on here. Can someone
please have a look at this site and tell me if this is something I can
actually fix (I really hope it is) and how?



CSS is located at http://www.renovate.com.au/lib/screen.css - please
don't blame me for some of the things in there, since most of it was
inherited from the last developers and I'm going through it a bit at a
time trying to clean it up. Most of it will die in the redesign,
anyway. :)



Cheers,


Seona.

Re: [WSG] Fluid problems

[Seona Bellamy]

On 17/11/05, Adam Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm having BIG problems trying to get the content of this site to be
 held within the image 'containers' I've used. Help me, please?! I'm
 beginning to lose it.

 Adam

 http://www.janelehrer.co.uk/live5

I've had a look, and the paragraph that is falling out of the box
doesn't have a closing /p tag. Maybe that's what's upsetting it?


Seona.
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Re: [WSG] advices for using headings more correctly

[Seona Bellamy]

On 04/11/05, Julián Landerreche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I'm looking at some pages where h1 for the website name is only used in
 the homepage. Then, in internal/content pages, the h1 usually goes for the
 section name or the article title.

  Of course, this second approach seems to need a little more development for
 the stylesheet.

It's actually not that difficult, if you want to have them looking
different. Just do something like this:

body id=home
  h1Site Title/h1

Then in your style sheet you can have:

h1{
  styles for internal h1's
}

#home h1 {
  styles for site title h1
}

Cheers,

Seona.
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Re: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation?

[Seona Bellamy]

On 01/11/05, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I told them that they need to start with
 web standards and get thier pages to validate before they start on
 accessability.
 Was that sound advice?

Well, while validation might not be seen as technically essential to
accessibility, I'd say that this is still sound advice. Reason being,
although when they say accessibility they are probably thinking of
screen readers and users who can't use a mouse, accessibility also
includes being able to access the information and basic functionality
of a site in numerous browsing devices. Validation won't always get
you that without a hitch, but it certainly puts you a long way towards
that goal.

Besides, since I'm assuming you'll be developing with standards in
mind, it may as well be going into something that's standard. :)

Not sure if any of that made any sense. It's been a long day.

Cheers,

Seona.
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Re: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation?

[Seona Bellamy]

On 01/11/05, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Thanks seona and josh,

You're welcome. :)

 -thats a key point, i design with standards in mind but they've been slicing
 my ai files into a tables and calling it a day. I am meeting with them this
 week to talk about this. I will try and talk the programmers into
 transitioning to standards but i dont know if i will be able to sell them on
 it. I was going to try the angle that web standards are helpful/essential
 for accessability-which they get alot of requests for these days. The
 programmers dont want me to do any coding or as little as possible-so as not
 to step on thier toes.

Understandable on their part. I guess the big thing here is to try and
sell it to them in such a way as it doesn't seem like you're saying
You guys are doing a bad job and I could do it so much better because
I know more than you do. That's immediately going to put them on the
defensive, as most people get rather touchy if they think you might be
trying to do them out of a job.

I know that there were some really good articles floating around on
the list a while back when someone was asking how to sell web
standards to clients. Maybe you could find something in the archives
of the list? If you can present some good solid arguments in favour of
it and back them up with some research, it might help a bit.

Best of luck!

Cheers,

Seona.
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[WSG] Looking for help with standard-based JS rollovers

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

Here's an outline of the requirements:
The site I'm working on has a dynamically-generated menu (a nested  
list with Son of Suckerfish dropdowns) running horizontally  
underneath the banner section. In order to add a little more life and  
interest to the pages, we want to have the banner change as you roll  
the mouse over the menu items - each section has its own banner, so  
if I roll over Reading Room the banner will change to show the  
reading room banner image. The banner image is currently set as a  
background on the header container.


The problem: I'm not that great at Javascript. *grin*

So can anyone point me at (or give me) some appropriate code, please?  
It would be greatly appreciated.


Cheers,

Seona.
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Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign

[Seona Bellamy]

On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote:


On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote:


by-the-by:  I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college  
in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of  
DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to  
close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed.




Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can,  
do. Those that can't, teach.'


Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that  
tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed  
with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given  
the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run  
education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch,  
you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you  
can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come  
about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students  
down the line...




And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right!  
*grin*


Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on  
usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on  
CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up  
taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the  
class who knew what the lecturer was getting at.


Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it  
would mean I had to deal with students...



Cheers,

Seona.
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Re: [WSG] td != div

[Seona Bellamy]

On 07/09/2005, at 9:31 AM, Kenny Graham wrote:

In most of the previous table layout vs css layout arguments I've  
seen on here, people refer to divs vs tables. Now, I never  
learned table based layouts, and don't understand them (spacer  
gifs, etc).  Because of this, I don't/can't think along the lines  
of I'm replacing tables with divs.  But many of the XHTML/CSS  
sites I see clearly do.  For instance, they'll put a ul inside a  
div id=menu, just so that they can style the ul, instead of  
just giving the ul itself an id.  Or put the contents of a  
paragraph inside a span id=p1 instead of giving the paragraph  
itself an id of p1.  The only time divs don't make me cringe is  
when they're used to enclose a group of elements with the header  
that applies to them, and this purpose of divs is being replaced  
with section.  I know that divs are more semantically neutral  
than tables, but is wrapping an element in 5 divs and a span really  
that much better than wrapping it in a table? Hopefully this will  
start a debate that I can learn something from, since I have a  
limited background in tables.


I'd actually be inclined to agree with you, even though I did start  
out in web development with table-based design. It made sense then,  
and was especially easy when you used something like Photoshop or  
Fireworks to design a beautiful graphical layout, carve it up, and  
export it directly as a table. In hindsight, however, I think it  
mostly made sense because we knew no other way.


Since I've started working towards standards-based design, I actually  
haven't really done the whole replace every table cell with a div  
thing. One of the attractions for me was that I could create much  
cleaner code that was easier to edit by hand (which I much prefer to  
using a WYSIWYG, most of the time) and so hanging IDs and classes  
directly on the elements I wanted to style just made sense.


I have, however, seen a lot of the sites that you are thinking of  
here. I've even seen a number of tutorials that follow the table  
cell = div method. I usually follow the tutorial to make sure I get  
all the bits right, then go back and try to clean it up by  
eliminating unnecessary divs. It doesn't always work, and sometimes I  
find I've completely ballsed it up, but I have learned a lot that  
way. *grin*


Cheers,

Seona.
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Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon

[Seona Bellamy]

On 07/09/2005, at 1:50 PM, Peter Asquith wrote:


Al Sparber wrote:

I'm not evangelizing table-based layouts, although for real-world  
clients they sometimes are the right choice.


Presumably, in this case, the right choice is the choice that  
limits the up-front cost and training required to get to market?  
Surely promoting a questionable technique because it's easier to  
learn and gives almost instant gratification is a dubious one?




No, but if, for example, you are creating a site to run on a  
corporate intranet and you know for a fact that many or even some of  
the company's employees are stuck on Netscape 4 with no hope of  
upgrade (usually due to company policy or some such silliness), then  
should you still create a lovely, semantically-correct CSS-P layout  
that none of these people will ever get to see? Or should you create  
a simple, clean table that at least puts the content into the desired  
columns so that they don't just get everything in one long list down  
the page?


It's one thing to discount such outdated browsers when designing for  
the internet, because they are now such a small percentage and those  
users are so used to having a crappy browsing experience nowadays  
that they'll be happy as long as they can get your content (usually).  
But intranets are a different story, and when there's a sizable  
percentage of your target audience stuck with a browser that doesn't  
do CSS very well, you really ought to at least _try_ to give them a  
decent browsing experience.


Standards / semantic code / CSS-P layouts / whatever else you want to  
call them are just a tool. Tables for layout are another tool. The  
mark of a good craftsman is understanding all the tools at their  
disposal, how to use them properly, and how to select the best one  
for the job.


Just my 2c on this.

Cheers,

Seona.
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Re: [WSG] Newbie Questions: East-Asian Character Sets and Marking-up Poetry

[Seona Bellamy]

On 08/08/2005, at 1:47 PM, Kwok Ting Lee wrote:


2.  Additionally, I am likely going to be posting entries that will be
partly in Chinese (quotations from the original text together with my
translations and comments, so that knowledgeable readers can refer to
the original themselves to judge whether I've made any mistakes), and
was planning on using UTF-8 encoding to encode my blog.  Anyway, the
question I have is (and this may be somewhat off-topic), but how would
one go about hiding the Chinese characters for those people who do not
have Chinese fonts enabled on their system?  (To avoid those ugly
squares or ? that show up when people who don't have Chinese fonts
installed -- a not inconsiderable fraction of my readership -- access
my site.)  I've been thinking of two ways:

A.  A cookie and a PHP script that would be set once (manually) to
opt-in for the Chinese fonts (presumably anyone who does that will
have the fonts installed on their system).

B.  Storing the Chinese text (poems and prose excerpts) in a separate
file and linking to it from the translated version.


Or C: Make an optional graphic for the Chinese text and link to it,  
so that people who don't have the fonts installed can opt to see the  
text anyway. They still might see an ugly jumble (unless you also put  
the normal Chinese text in a popup and linked to that too) but at  
least they would be able to see the text.


Actually, just had a thought as I type: using one of the many  
accessible pop-up techniques you could have them both included in the  
page, hidden away for people with descent browsers, and easily  
available for people to select which version they want to look at.


Just my ramblings as I procrastinate.

Seona.
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Re: [WSG] Longhorn Avalon - seismic shift for web standards?

[Seona Bellamy]

On 15/07/2005, at 11:40 AM, David Pietersen wrote:

 But, if you're in the business of building web apps that target a 
specific platform.. :)

 
We all do, really.  I am at home, and don't have the research here, 
but current statistics show that 97.4% of all devices accessing web 
content are running on Windows.  Every one of these machines has IE on 
it.  Really, are we mad to develop for anything else?  Discuss.


No, we're not. Yes, my Windows box has IE on it. Due to the way Windows 
is built, it's almost impossible to remove it. But do I use it? Not if 
I can help it (aside from testing purposes). I'd much rather use 
Mozilla or Firefox, but it doesn't stop me from having to have IE on my 
computer.


Oh, and just an aside: I'm curious to know where your current research 
comes from, I must admit. If you're going to quote statistics, quote 
the source. Otherwise, it's really difficult to take them seriously.


My $0.02 anyway.

Seona.
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RE: [WSG] A few positioning problems

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi Stuart,

  1/ The navigation buttons are currently text links sitting on top of
  backgrounds. I'm having trouble getting them to centre nicely though. If
  someone could have a look and give me some ideas of how I can make
  everything line up nicely, it would be greatly appreciated.
  
 The best case here (IMHO!) would be to replace the text with images 
 (check out http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ImageReplacement). If 
 you simply try and position the plain text, it will wreck the layout if 
 the visitor decides to resize their text.

Good point. I might just have a go at that. Thanks for the idea. :)

  2/ There's supposed to be a gap at the bottom of the page, 
 allowing some of
  the background to show through under the white panel. It works 
 fine in IE,
  but not in Mozilla (both on PC) which wasn't the result I was 
 expecting...
  
 If you remove 'height:100%' from your html/body rule, and add 
 'overflow:auto;' to your '#Container' rule, that should help. It looks 
 like the internal containers were not fully contained by the 
 '#Container' container (!! ;) )

That's really weird. The fix worked, and yet I'd read somewhere that I
needed that height:100% in html and body to make the container's height
behave properly. Ah well, I guess you can't believe everything you read. ;)

 ps. glad to see the mailing list's up and running again!!

Me too. Makes it much easier to find answers to annoying little questions.
*grin*

Cheers,

Seona.

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[WSG] A few positioning problems

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

Working on a site for a client, and having trouble figuring out a few
things.

1/ The navigation buttons are currently text links sitting on top of
backgrounds. I'm having trouble getting them to centre nicely though. If
someone could have a look and give me some ideas of how I can make
everything line up nicely, it would be greatly appreciated.

2/ There's supposed to be a gap at the bottom of the page, allowing some of
the background to show through under the white panel. It works fine in IE,
but not in Mozilla (both on PC) which wasn't the result I was expecting. I'm
not sure what I've done wrong, and have spent some time tinkering with it,
but can't seem to get them both to play ball. If someone can have a look and
tell me what I'm doing wrong here, it would be greatly appreciated.

The page can be found for now at:
http://www.onehouseproductions.com/lollie/

Style Sheet can be found at:
http://www.onehouseproductions.com/lollie/_styles/main.css

Cheers,

Seona.

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RE: [WSG] Unofficial Melbourne meetup

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi,

I'm certainly happy to put my hand up for this. It also gives me a chance to
meet and greet some folks, since so far the official meetings have never
been on a night I can attend.

So, any day other than Monday is good for me. :) Where in Melbourne are you
staying? We could always meet at an Elephant and Wheelbarrow somewhere, so
you can laugh at our attempt at British pubs... *grin*

Cheers,

Seona.
(who has been to Britain and misses real British pubs)

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Dan Webb
 Sent: Thursday, 17 March 2005 2:40 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: [WSG] Unofficial Melbourne meetup
 
 
 Hi,
 
 Im not sure if this is on or off topic (it's not on either list in the
 guidelines) but I've just arrived in Melbourne and intend to be
 staying here for a few months (and working in web dev hopefully) so I
 just wondered if any of you Melbourne people were up for an informal
 meet up as I noticed there's no official meets scheduled at the moment
 and I'd like to meet up with people on the local web circut to
 exchange ideas and stuff.
 
 So you know who I am, Im a developer from London and I used to be
 quite active on this list before I started travelling.  I also
 co-wrote all the suckerfish articles with Pat Griffiths of HTMLDog.
 
 So, anyone up for a (web standards) beer?
 
 Cheers,
 
 -- 
 Dan Webb
 http://www.danwebb.net
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RE: [WSG] Why won't my list items centre?

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi Claudia,

The site has undergone a transformation since then, and not necessarily for
the better. The layout I had before was very unstable from a cross-browser
point of view, and since we needed it for going into a client meeting this
morning I ran out of time to debug it fully. So it's now using a couple of
basic tables for layout, since that was the easiest way to solve the worst
problem (that some of the floated items tended to float the wrong way in
some browsers and covered up the text). Once this client meeting is over and
I have time to breathe again, I intend to go back to the original layout and
rework it from the ground up. Hopefully I can improve on the original
concept and make it work then.

Thanks for looking though. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Claudia Frers
 Sent: Tuesday, 1 March 2005 11:03 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Why won't my list items centre?
 
 
 Hi Seona:
 Are you talking  about the list at the top of the page or at the bottom?
 I assume that you mean the bottom.
 Gallery and Contact me move to the bottom line and are centered in 
 IE 6.0 and ff win pro. Is this what you expect?
 
 
 I am missing The CSS for the menu bar at:
 http://www.onehouseproductions.com/_styles/mainNav.css
 
 Request not found.
 
 Claudia
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RE: [WSG] Site check (esp. Mac): One House

[Seona Bellamy]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of David Laakso

 And then along comes a *nit-picking bozzo,* still on the back of 
 the bus,  
 with XP_SP2, who finds that:

Nit-picking is good. It helps me build better sites. Hopefully I can fix the
problems. :)

 the fonts are much too small, that they go a little goofy on zoom in IE,  

Hmm... well, I run Win2k here, not XP, and I'm not sure what the differences
are. The font sizes here when I'm running at my normal mode (IE's default
font sizing in a 1024x768 screen) are a nice size for reading. I hadn't
realised that XP might show it different... Or have you just got your set on
tiny fonts? I've included here a couple of links to screenshots I made of
the page, and I'd be interested to know if this is any different from what
you're seeing:

Mozilla: http://www.onehouseproductions.com/temp/screen_moz.jpg
IE6: http://www.onehouseproductions.com/temp/screen_ie.jpg

Is that a great deal larger than what you get? And I'm not entirely sure
what you mean about them going goofy on zoom. What happens exactly?

 that the layout breaks on zoom in IE accessibility mode, and that 

Which part of the layout? And how badly? Any chance you could send me some
screenshots off list? Best email is [EMAIL PROTECTED] at the moment.

 there's  
 no available horizontal navigation available when images are disabled in  
 FF, or Opera. 

Really? Hmm... confuzzled now. I would have thought that even with images
off the text would still be available since the actual links in the
navigation are just text. Any suggestions about how I can fix this?

And it's a long, long, scroll to get to the content in Lynx.

That's true. I'm not sure how else to manage it though. What are the
disadvantages of absolutely positioning the content block so that I can have
it first in the source?


Also, you may notice that in the IE screenshot above, there's a white space
between the top bar with the navigation and the next bar with the banner. I
can't figure out how to make it go away. If anyone has any suggestions, it
would be greatly appreciated.

Once again, site is at:
http://www.onehouseproductions.com
CSS:
http://www.onehouseproductions.com/_styles/main.css
http://www.onehouseproductions.com/_styles/mainNav.css

Cheers,

Seona.

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[WSG] Site check (esp. Mac): One House

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

Can I have some people look over this site for me please? Especially Mac
users, since I don't have a Mac to check it on but my client does (so I know
she's going to comment on how it looks on a Mac).

http://www.onehouseproductions.com

Since I didn't have total control over the creation of this site (I've
basically been reduced to 'code monkey' on this one) I've had to make a
number of compromises that I'm not entirely happy with, but I've done the
best I can to keep things nice. I'd value any suggestions anyone has about
what I could do better, although in some cases I won't be able to take them
up if they will deviate too much from the original design. *sigh*

Cheers,

Seona.

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RE: [WSG] Site check (esp. Mac): One House

[Seona Bellamy]

*grin* Cool, thanks for the links. I'll have to check them out. I'm sure it
will be much cheaper than buying a Mac. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Jan Brasna
 Sent: Monday, 28 February 2005 12:42 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Site check (esp. Mac): One House
 
 
  about Macs because I can't check there
 
 You can.
 http://www.browsercam.com/
 http://danvine.com/icapture/
 
  buy a Mac as a testing machine. :)
 
 Not necessarily.
 http://pearpc.sf.net
 
 BTW you'll end up with a testing PC and using Apple regularly :)
 
 -- 
 Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: alphanumeric.cz | janbrasna.com
 
 Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/
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RE: [WSG] Floated list items not floating on a Mac

[Seona Bellamy]

OK, I've made that change. Can you check again and make sure it really is
fixed, please?

Thanks heaps,

Seona.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Jeff Lowder - Accessibility 1st
 Sent: Friday, 25 February 2005 12:34 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Floated list items not floating on a Mac
 
 
 It's only happening in Mac IE, anyway instead of having the Lis 
 float left,
 change it to 'display: inline' and this fixes the problem.
 
 Cheers
 
 Jeff Lowder
 Accessibility 1st
 Website: http://www.accessibility1st.com.au
 
  From: Seona Bellamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
  Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:26:47 +1100
  To: WSG List wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
  Subject: [WSG] Floated list items not floating on a Mac
  
  Hi guys,
  
  The problem I have is with my menu bar at the top of
  http://www.onehouseproductions.com . It's in a ul, with the 
 li's floated
  left to make them sit along a single line. According to a 
 Mac-using friend
  of mine, they aren't doing this and are instead showing as a 
 vertical list.
  
  Can someone please have a look at my CSS and tell me how to fix 
 it please?
  
  http://www.onehouseproductions.com/_styles/main.css
  
  Cheers,
  
  Seona.
  
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[WSG] Can Mac people please have a look at this?

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

I've had someone tell me that this page is doing odd things on a Mac.
Apparently the navbar is falling out of the content pane. Can someone please
have a look and a) verify this, and b) tell me how to fix it?

Site: http://www.dare2.com.au/productsservices.php
CSS: http://www.dare2.com.au/new.css

Cheers,

Seona.

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RE: [WSG] Why DO floats not stretch their containers?

[Seona Bellamy]

I believe that it is because floated elements are removed from the document
flow just like absolutely positioned elements are. So the rest of the
elements on the page, including the containing element, literally can't see
the floated element. If they can't see it, then they can't accommodate its
height, width, or any other property of it.

That's how I've always understood it, anyway. I'm sure someone will correct
me if I'm wrong. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of John Horner
 Sent: Friday, 11 February 2005 10:17 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: [WSG] Why DO floats not stretch their containers?
 
 
 This is more of a philosophical question than a technical question, 
 but here's the background. As we probably all know:
 
   * floated elements too big for the enclosing element spill out
   * except on IE, where they stretch the enclosing element
 
 that's a bit simplified, but essentially correct, right?
 
 For instance, with this code:
 
 div style=width:300px;height:100px;border:1px solid black;
DIV A
  div style=width:100px;height:300px;border:1px solid 
 red;float:left;
DIV B
  /div
 /div
 
 DIV B will overlap DIV A and continue down the page on its own unless 
 you're in IE in which case A will stretch.
 
 My question is, *why* is the correct behaviour the first one? It 
 takes a lot of people by surprise and they often see what IE does as 
 the natural and obvious thing to do.
 
 I'm not trying to start a flame war, I really want to know!
 
 I looked at my copy of the O'Reilly Definitive Guide by Eric Meyer 
 and it just says that it's the correct behaviour, although some 
 browsers don't respect it. It doesn't offer a rationale.
 
 
 Have You Validated Your Code?
 John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
 Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/
 
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RE: [WSG] Popups

[Seona Bellamy]

 -Original Message-
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Paul Novitski
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Popups
 Also, while it's convenient to insert javascript event handlers into HTML 
 markup when demonstrating an example, in practice it's probably best to 
 leave the script out of the markup and apply it from a separate 
 script file 
 at window.onload.

I'm curious as to how you do that, because to my mind it's a great idea.
Keeping it out of the markup would make sure that the code of the page
itself remains nice and lean and would also make it easier to remove the
popups altogether if such a feat was necessary.

If you could elaborate on that, either on or off list, I'd really appreciate
it. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

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RE: [WSG] Popups

[Seona Bellamy]

That's great, thank you very much. I have a project coming up where a script
like this will be very useful. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Paul Novitski
 Sent: Friday, 14 January 2005 9:07 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: RE: [WSG] Popups
 
 
 At 01:20 PM 1/13/05, Seona Bellamy wrote:
   -Original Message-
   [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Paul Novitski
   Subject: Re: [WSG] Popups
   Also, while it's convenient to insert javascript event 
 handlers into HTML
   markup when demonstrating an example, in practice it's 
 probably best to
   leave the script out of the markup and apply it from a separate
   script file
   at window.onload.
 
 I'm curious as to how you do that, because to my mind it's a great idea.
 Keeping it out of the markup would make sure that the code of the page
 itself remains nice and lean and would also make it easier to remove the
 popups altogether if such a feat was necessary.
 
 
 Seona,
 
 Here's a quickie example in which I assign Jeff's href event handler to a 
 single specific hyperlink:
 
 ===
 HTML:
 
 head
 script type=text/javascript src=assignevent.js/script
 /head
 body
 a id=anchor1 href=http://example.com;Open the example site/a
 /body
 
 ===
 JavaScript:
 
 // this file is assignevent.js
 
 
 // Tell javascript to run a function when the page finishes loading:
 window.onload = jsAssignEvent;
 
 
 // When the page loads, assign the event handler to the object:
 function jsAssignEvent()
 {
  // don't run code the browser can't handle
  if (document.getElementById)
  {
  // get the object
  var oAnchor = document.getElementById(anchor1);
 
  // assign the event handler
  oAnchor.onclick = jsOpenLinkWindow;
  }
 }
 
 
 // When the link is clicked, open the new window:
 function jsOpenLinkWindow(evt)
 {
  // stop event propagation
  if (!evt) var evt = window.event;
  evt.cancelBubble = true;
  if (evt.stopPropagation) evt.stopPropagation();
 
  // open the link in a new window
  window.open(this.href, '_blank', 
 'width=500,height=500,menubar=no');
 
  // cancel the click event so the parent window location 
 doesn't change
  return false;
 }
 ===
 
 I recommend Peter Paul Koch's articles on event handlers  javascript at 
 http://www.quirksmode.org/
 
 Cheers,
 Paul 
 
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[WSG] Is IE/Mac still messing up my page?

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

According to my friend, her site is now displaying perfectly in Safari and I 
can see it looking just fine in a bunch of PC browsers (thanks Georg! :) ). It 
is, however, apparently still misbehaving in IE/Mac.

Can I please get some verification of this, first of all? I know that her 
system is a little dodgy at the moment, so I'm not altogether trusting of what 
she sees. If she is in fact correct and IE/Mac is still playing silly buggers, 
can someone please send me screenshots and (even better) suggestions of how to 
fix it? I'd really like to knock this over as soon as possible.

The site: http://www.onehouseproductions.com/ohp2/

CSS: http://www.onehouseproductions.com/ohp2/_styles/main_styles.css
and  http://www.onehouseproductions.com/ohp2/_styles/classes.css

Cheers,

Seona.
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RE: [WSG] Are conditional comments the way to do this?

[Seona Bellamy]

No, if it was just IE, it would be easy and I wouldn't have needed to ask
the question. The trouble was that exactly the same problem was occurring in
Firefox. So I needed to isolate both. It's better now, thanks to using the
IE/Mac comment hack to just feed a new set of values to everything except
IE/Mac. :)

Thanks for the thoughts though. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kornel Lesinski
 Sent: Wednesday, 1 December 2004 9:25 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Are conditional comments the way to do this?
 
 
 
 First I'd check if that problem can be fixed so that you can keep one  
 stylesheet.
 You might have some error in styles that some browsers ignore and other  
 don't.
 
 If by PC browsers you mean IE, check if it isn't one of it's 
 well-known  
 bugs:
 http://positioniseverything.net/explorer.html
 Some of them have easy workarounds.
 
 CSS rule for IE only:
 * html #foo {height: 1%;}
 
 CSS rule for better browsers only:
 * #bar {position: fixed;}
 
 If problems are caused by incompatible box model (do you use valid  
 doctype? no xml prolog?) in such case you might end up with separate  
 stylesheet for IE and conditional comments are right solution.
 
 -- 
 regards, Kornel Lesinski
 
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[WSG] Site check please (especially Mac)

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

Could I please have a few Mac users (both IE and Safari) have a look at this
page and tell me if it's working right? My friend has looked at it on her
Mac and reported a few problems, but since her computer's been playing up
lately I want to check that there is actually a problem and not just her
system being weird. If you do see anything odd or not working, can you
please have a peep at the code and let me know what's causing it?

Any PC users who want to look and give opinions would also be appreciated.
:)

The site: http://www.onehouseproductions.com/ohp2/

CSS: http://www.onehouseproductions.com/ohp2/_styles/main_styles.css
and  http://www.onehouseproductions.com/ohp2/_styles/classes.css

Cheers,

Seona.

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RE: [WSG] Site check please (especially Mac)

[Seona Bellamy]

Hmm... Any suggestions about how I could better do it so that it stays put?
I would have thought that absolute positioning with the coordinates given in
px would have been fairly static. :( I'm not sure what else to try.

Thanks for the compliment though. This is why I like working with a trained
graphic designer - she comes up with designs I'd never even dream of.
Conversely, it's why I don't like working with a trained graphic designer -
she comes up with designs that are a cow to build to. ;)

Cheers,

Seona.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun
 Sent: Thursday, 2 December 2004 9:06 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Site check please (especially Mac)
 
 
 Seona Bellamy wrote:
 
  Any PC users who want to look and give opinions would also be 
 appreciated.
  :)
  
  The site: http://www.onehouseproductions.com/ohp2/
 
 You should try a better positioning-method for that curved menu.
 The items leave the curved background-image and ends up all over the 
 place upon font-resizing in Opera, Firefox and IE6.
 
 It looks really nice when everything is in place though.
 
   Georg
 
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RE: [WSG] Site check please (especially Mac)

[Seona Bellamy]

Would 
you please send me screenshots of these problems off-list? If I can at least see 
exactly what is happening, I might be able to fix it.

Email 
address is [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Thanks,

Seona.

  -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Marilyn 
  LangfeldSent: Thursday, 2 December 2004 9:08 AMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] Site check please 
  (especially Mac)I see problems in both. In Safari 
  1.2.3, the navigation buttons separate (seeming to move progressively to the 
  right), leaving funny white shapes where there should be a smooth grey 
  curve.In IE 5.2, the footer is in the middle of the page, overlaying 
  "One House Productions - is..."Looks good to me in Firefox 
  1.0.I'd love to make suggestions, but that will have to go to others 
  more advanced in CSS than I.Best 
  regards,Marilyn 
  Langfeldhttp://www.langfeldesigns.com[EMAIL PROTECTED]Could 
  I please have a few Mac users (both IE and Safari) have a look at thispage 
  and tell me if it's working right? 



  
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Re: [WSG] Site check please (especially Mac)

[Seona Bellamy]

Thanks. I'll pass those suggestions on to her, since the design is hers (I'm 
deliberately making this one not my problem - I have enough problems getting 
this site up and running...).

Anyone have any more suggestions about what to do about the glitching 
positioning in Mac browsers? I'm at a total loss.

Cheers,

Seona.

Quoting Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Maybe add a slight outline/glow/etc effect to the menu items as they 
 don't stand out too well, especially when hovering. Also find a way of 
 reducing image size that doesn't result in noticeable grain.
 
 Later
 
 Seona Bellamy wrote:
 
 Hi guys,
 
 Could I please have a few Mac users (both IE and Safari) have a look at
 this
 page and tell me if it's working right? My friend has looked at it on her
 Mac and reported a few problems, but since her computer's been playing up
 lately I want to check that there is actually a problem and not just her
 system being weird. If you do see anything odd or not working, can you
 please have a peep at the code and let me know what's causing it?
 
 Any PC users who want to look and give opinions would also be appreciated.
 :)
 
 The site: http://www.onehouseproductions.com/ohp2/
 
 CSS: http://www.onehouseproductions.com/ohp2/_styles/main_styles.css
 and  http://www.onehouseproductions.com/ohp2/_styles/classes.css
 
 Cheers,
 
 Seona.
 
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RE: [WSG] A web standards group survey

[Seona Bellamy]

One thing I was disappointed with in the survey: the question have you ever
attended a WSG meeting? only allowed three options and there was no other
option. So how could I say that I'd love to attend a WSG meeting and would
if it didn't always happen on a Monday when I have a regular prior
commitment? *grumble*

Ah well, it's said now. ;)

Cheers,

Seona.

 -Original Message-
 russ - maxdesign wrote:
 
We are interested in getting your feedback about the Web Standards Group.

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[WSG] Are conditional comments the way to do this?

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

I have a site I'm doing for a graphic designer friend of mine, and one of
the things I needed to do was to absolutely position each element of the
navigation because she wanted to have them follow the shape of the design.
So far so good, and I put together a working template on her Mac when I was
there yesterday. I've since taken the files home so I can continue working
on them, looked at the template on my PC and found that all of the
navigation is out of whack. :(

I was thinking of creating a second stylesheet with a new set of positioning
rules that would be hidden from Mac browsers and hide the current one from
PC browsers (no need to make everyone download everything). So is this a job
for conditional comments? Or is there another way to do this? Do I need to
just use hacks to hide the extra rules, so that everyone downloads
everything and only processes the relevant bits? Either way, what would be
the recommended syntax?

Cheers,

Seona.

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RE: [WSG] Are conditional comments the way to do this?

[Seona Bellamy]

Yes, ordinarily I do develop in Firefox first, but because I was at her
house and working on her computer, I had to make do with what I had. That
happened to be IE/Mac, since her install of Safari was acting oddly and kept
hanging up. *sigh*

Thanks for the code tips though. I'll have a play and see what I can do.

Cheers,

Seona.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Terrence Wood
 Sent: Wednesday, 1 December 2004 4:48 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Are conditional comments the way to do this?
 
 
 
 Short anwser: try and use 2 hacks.
 
 I recommend developing for the best standards compliant browsers first:
 Firefox, Opera, or Safari.
 
 This will ensure that your CSS is clean and valid and should work well 
 with future standards compliant browsers.
 
 Then I deal to/with IE/PC. I always use the * html hack at the end of my 
 stylesheet to  deliver styles to these browsers (5, 5.5, 6), and if the 
 number of fixes get big enough I then put them into an external style 
 sheet and hide that from nonIE using conditional comments.
 
 Then on to IE/Mac, if I can get away with it I use the * html hack again 
 at the end of my stylesheet for this browser, checking the result 
 against my IE/PC stylesheet, but some people put styles for this browser 
 in another file and include it with a filter.
 
 Keep it as simple as possible and only hack browser which are 'dead' or 
 'dumb'.
 
 so I recommend using only two hack if you can do it:
 
 * html {//stuff}  for IE
 
 /* \*/ {//stuff}/* */ to hide rules from Mac IE
 
 
 HTH
 
 Terrence Wood
 
 On 2004-12-01 6:08 PM, Seona Bellamy wrote:
  Hi guys,
  
  I have a site I'm doing for a graphic designer friend of mine, 
 and one of
  the things I needed to do was to absolutely position each element of the
  navigation because she wanted to have them follow the shape of 
 the design.
  So far so good, and I put together a working template on her 
 Mac when I was
  there yesterday. I've since taken the files home so I can 
 continue working
  on them, looked at the template on my PC and found that all of the
  navigation is out of whack. :(
  
  I was thinking of creating a second stylesheet with a new set 
 of positioning
  rules that would be hidden from Mac browsers and hide the 
 current one from
  PC browsers (no need to make everyone download everything). So 
 is this a job
  for conditional comments? Or is there another way to do this? 
 Do I need to
  just use hacks to hide the extra rules, so that everyone downloads
  everything and only processes the relevant bits? Either way, 
 what would be
  the recommended syntax?
  
  Cheers,
  
  Seona.
  
 
 -- 
 You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have 
 nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away. 
 -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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RE: [WSG] Anyone know of any good DOM tutorials?

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi Michael,

No, :hover isn't an option since what I want to do is have stuff hidden when
you print it. I'm using Zeldman's toggle script, and I want to set it up
so that only expanded items will print (at the moment the headings of
non-expanded items also prints, so that you get a lot of wasted paper). It's
in a reports section, so logically a person printing the page is only
interested in the section they've expanded.

So we have something like:

ul
  li class=noPrinta href=# onclick=toggle(1)
onKeyPress=toggle(1)CategoryName1/a/li
  li class=noPrint
ul id=1 style=display: none;
  li class=noPrinta href=# onclick=toggle(2)
onKeyPress=toggle(2)SubcategoryName1/a/li
  li class=noPrint
ul id=2 style=display: none;
  li class=noPrinta href=# onclick=toggle(3)
onKeyPress=toggle(3)SectionName1/a/li
  li
div id=3 style=display: none;
  pItemName1/p
/div
  /li
/ul
  /li
/ul
  /li
  li class=noPrinta href=# onclick=toggle(4)
onKeyPress=toggle(4)CategoryName2/a/li
  li class=noPrint
ul id=4 style=display: none;
  li class=noPrinta href=# onclick=toggle(5)
onKeyPress=toggle(5)SubcategoryName2/a/li
  li class=noPrint
ul id=5 style=display: none;
  li class=noPrinta href=# onclick=toggle(6)
onKeyPress=toggle(6)SectionName2/a/li
  li
div id=6 style=display: none;
  pItemName2/p
/div
  /li
/ul
  /li
/ul
  /li
/ul

This is a cutdown version of the code for the page, taking out all of the
other details that show along with the ItemName, as well as the code for the
looping (I've pasted in two sets instead, just to give the idea), but it
shows the essential format. What I want is that if only the top set is
expanded, CategoryName2 will not actually print at all. So when a link is
clicked, as well as toggling the referred ID to visible, it will set the
class of the parent element from noPrint to Print.

Is that something that can be done? How do you isolate the parent element to
do something to it?



Seona.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Michael Nelson
 Sent: Saturday, 4 September 2004 8:45 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Anyone know of any good DOM tutorials?
 
 
 Seona,
 
 Is there good reason not to use CSS psuedo classes such as :hover etc?
 (http://www.htmldog.com/guides/cssintermediate/pseudoclasses/)
 
 I guess you're doing something more complex than the example below...
 
 On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 08:28, Michael Nelson wrote:
  Hmm... not sure about a tutorial, but adapting Patrick Griffaths DOM
  example for avoiding email spam at
  http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/archives/63.php
  
  would give something like:
  
  function changeClass(id, newclass){
  
elementToChange = document.getElementById(id);
elementToChange.setAttribute(class, newclass);

  }
  
  Then you'd need to associate this function with the element/event that
  you want to use... such as:
  
  document.getElementById(myMenuItem).onmouseover = function(){
  changeClass(myMenuItem, thenewclassname)}
  
  Actually, with the last bit I'm not too sure whether I'm mixing my old
  JS habits with proper DOM coding... perhaps someone more knowledgable
  can check it when they read this!
  
  Hope it helps!
  -Michael.
  
  On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 07:42, Seona Bellamy wrote:
   Hi guys,
   
   Anyone know where I can find a good, easy to follow online 
 tutorial on using
   the DOM to control elements on a webpage? Specifically, I 
 need to change the
   class of an element to a different class.
   
   Cheers,
   
   Seona.
   
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[WSG] Anyone know of any good DOM tutorials?

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

Anyone know where I can find a good, easy to follow online tutorial on using
the DOM to control elements on a webpage? Specifically, I need to change the
class of an element to a different class.

Cheers,

Seona.

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RE: [WSG] Can someone help me figure out some semantic mark-up, please?

[Seona Bellamy]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Manuel González Noriega

  The script, for those who don't have the book, is as follows:
  
  function toggle(targetID) {
  if (document.getElementById) {
  target = document.getElementById(targetID);
  if (target.style.display == none) {
  target.style.display = ;
 
 Shouldn't that be 
   target.style.display = block;

Err... which one? The first one or the second one?

Confuzzled,

Seona.

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RE: [WSG] Can someone help me figure out some semantic mark-up, please?

[Seona Bellamy]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Manuel González Noriega
   
   Shouldn't that be 
 target.style.display = block;
  
  Err... which one? The first one or the second one?
  
  Confuzzled,
 
 My fault entirely, i trimmed a little too happily :)
 
 The second one, as if the display is set to none you most likely want to
 toggle it to block 

Hmm OK, I'll try that. As I said before, I got the code from a book, so
I don't fully understand why it does what it does. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

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RE: [WSG] Can someone help me figure out some semantic mark-up, please?

[Seona Bellamy]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Nick Gleitzman
 
 Seona, depending on the doctype you're using, ID's that are just 
 numbers won't validate. They need to start with an alpha character - 
 for XHTML 1 Strict, at least. But there again, if your project is for 
 offline use, maybe validation doesn't matter... ;o)

Interesting... so technically using numbers is invalid, but when I use
anything but numbers, my code stops working. Great. *wry smile* Something of
a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation. Then again, this part is
just on the back-end, so as long as it works on their internal browsers it's
not the end of the world if it doesn't validate perfectly. At least the
public front-end is pretty much valid code.

So I think I'll put this one to bed now, and on a different project with a
different budget (and more time) I'll get back to investigating making the
code work with text ID's. :)

Thanks,

Seona.

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RE: [WSG] Can someone help me figure out some semantic mark-up, please?

[Seona Bellamy]

Thanks for the help, guys. I've gone with the dl as suggested by
Mordechai, and the script that was in Zeldman's book (sorry, Mordechai, but
it seemed like a slightly simpler, more flexible way of doing it - or maybe
it's just that I've combed through it so often that I actually understand
what it does!).

Minor problem, however: I started by just creating a vanilla list with
hard-coded values and giving the ID for each level a number. Tested it, and
it worked beautifully. Then I put in the first level of dynamic generation
(at the top level, drawing the category names from the database) and used
the ID number for each category as the ID of the sub-dl. That worked too,
but I realised that if I just used straight numbers, then there would be
problems when I started bringing in more levels of dynamic content since
some ID numbers would be repeated (for example, the number 2 may exist as an
ID number for a Category, a Subcategory and a Section, so there would be 3
instances of ID=2 on the page and that would stuff things up). I figured
that shouldn't be too hard, and with the addition of a little text, I now
had some first-level ID's like Sub1, Sub2, etc. Now, suddenly, the system
stops working!

Can anyone tell me why this should be? Why did it work when the IDs were
just numbers, but stop working when it was a letter-and-number combination?
The example in Zeldman's book uses text as the ID of the section he's
toggling, so I'm sure that the script is meant to work with text.

The script, for those who don't have the book, is as follows:

function toggle(targetID) {
if (document.getElementById) {
target = document.getElementById(targetID);
if (target.style.display == none) {
target.style.display = ;
} else {
target.style.display = none;
}
}
}


Can anyone suggest why I'm having this problem?

Cheers,

Seona.

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RE: [WSG] Can someone help me figure out some semantic mark-up, please?

[Seona Bellamy]

Well, I've found a way around the problem (used an incrementing counter
instead of the ID-number from the database, so each item has a unique ID) so
this question isn't exactly pressing any more.

I'd still love to know the answer though, if for no other reason than that
there's a good chance I'll use this script again in future and it would be
nice to know in advance if text-ID's are workable.

BTW, in answer to an earlier question about the number of items that will
eventually be in the list, about 98% of the time they will be accessing the
data across the internal network so there is still not going to be too much
of a lag (management has declared it acceptable, anyway, given that it won't
have to happen very often). And front-end users never get a page that
returns all items in the catalogue, so variable connection speeds aren't
really an issue either. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

 -Original Message-
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent:   Sunday, 29 August 2004 8:50 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:RE: [WSG] Can someone help me figure out some semantic
mark-up, please?

Thanks for the help, guys. I've gone with the dl as suggested by
Mordechai, and the script that was in Zeldman's book (sorry, Mordechai, but
it seemed like a slightly simpler, more flexible way of doing it - or maybe
it's just that I've combed through it so often that I actually understand
what it does!).

Minor problem, however: I started by just creating a vanilla list with
hard-coded values and giving the ID for each level a number. Tested it, and
it worked beautifully. Then I put in the first level of dynamic generation
(at the top level, drawing the category names from the database) and used
the ID number for each category as the ID of the sub-dl. That worked too,
but I realised that if I just used straight numbers, then there would be
problems when I started bringing in more levels of dynamic content since
some ID numbers would be repeated (for example, the number 2 may exist as an
ID number for a Category, a Subcategory and a Section, so there would be 3
instances of ID=2 on the page and that would stuff things up). I figured
that shouldn't be too hard, and with the addition of a little text, I now
had some first-level ID's like Sub1, Sub2, etc. Now, suddenly, the system
stops working!

Can anyone tell me why this should be? Why did it work when the IDs were
just numbers, but stop working when it was a letter-and-number combination?
The example in Zeldman's book uses text as the ID of the section he's
toggling, so I'm sure that the script is meant to work with text.

The script, for those who don't have the book, is as follows:

function toggle(targetID) {
if (document.getElementById) {
target = document.getElementById(targetID);
if (target.style.display == none) {
target.style.display = ;
} else {
target.style.display = none;
}
}
}


Can anyone suggest why I'm having this problem?

Cheers,

Seona.

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[WSG] Can someone help me figure out some semantic mark-up, please?

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

I'm hoping that this doesn't count as off topic, but I need some help
figuring out the best way to mark up a section of code. What I need it to do
is operate with the toggle DOM script from Zeldman's 'Designing With Web
Standards'. I've already used this script successfully on a different part
of the site which is only one level deep (this will make sense in a moment)
but when I introduce further levels it falls apart and stuffs up the whole
page - I can't even view source!

What I need to do is have the following sort of setup:

Category
- Subcategory
  - Section
- Product
- Product
- Product
  - Section
- Product
- Product
- Subcategory
  - Section
- Product
- Product
Category
- Subcategory
...etc...

When the user first views the page, only the category names are shown. They
then select the category they are interested in and click on it, and it
shows the subcategories under that category. They click on the subcategory
they are interested in, and it displays the sections under that subcategory.
They click on the section they are interested in, and it displays the list
of products. I know this sounds like a lot of extraneous steps, but it is on
the Admin side of the site and it to allow them to easily administer a list
of something like 50,000 line items without having to scroll forever or keep
going to different pages - the idea with this script is that the page loads
with all of the data, but most of it is hidden. Then the changes to the page
are made client-side, reducing the number of calls to the server. My client
agreed that the extra delay when first loading the page was more than made
up for by the reduction in delays when calling up the different records.

For anyone who is unfamiliar with the script, the (simple) working version
can be seen at:
http://216.119.123.23/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalogue.ListProductsSubcat=2c
ategory=Subcategory

Anyway, what I need is a semantic way of marking up the above structure in
such a way that the required nested hiding works. Should I be using divs?
Should I be using some other tag? What is the best? I've tried a couple of
different ways, and none of them have been successful. I'm figuring that if
I start out with properly marked-up code, it might make it easier to slot in
the required functionality.

Sorry that this has been a little long-winded. Thanks for taking the time to
read this far. Even more thanks if you have a suggestion for me. *hint hint*
;)

Cheers,

Seona.

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[WSG] Can someone reproduce these issues for me please?

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

I have a couple of issues with the site I'm working on. They have been
reported by the client, and I'm having trouble reliably replicating any of
them so I can't work out how to fix them.

Can someone please take a look at http://216.119.123.23/ and look for the
following errors:

* On pages like About Us and Contact Details, the centre banner apparently
stays stuck at the top of the screen (i.e., the content of the page
disappears under it as you scroll, and it's always on screen). Does anyone
else get this problem? I don't. More importantly, if anyone else does, how
do I make it stay in place?

* If you browse the catalogue, sometimes the product listings don't come up
straight away. The page loads, finishes loading, and expands to its required
height, but the content doesn't show up until you roll your mouse over a
link. Then it magically pops into view. I only get this problem sometimes,
they apparently get it all the time, and I can't figure out why it's
happening.

* In the View Details page for any of the products, there should be an
Enquire Now button. It's there on mine. It's not there on the client's. They
don't believe that it's really there at all, in spite of the fact that I can
look in the code and see it.


I really, really need to find some answers to these, since my client is
understandably getting quite annoyed that these things are going wrong and
I'm at my wits' end trying to figure out how to fix them.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Seona.

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RE: [WSG] Can someone reproduce these issues for me please?

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi Lachlan,

Don't be sorry for not being able to replicate the problem. If nothing else,
I can use this email as proof that I'm not simply being contrary and
refusing to help them. :)

I'll look into the caching issues and see if that makes a difference. 

Cheers,

Seona.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Lachlan Hardy
 Sent: Tuesday, 17 August 2004 12:20 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Can someone reproduce these issues for me please?
 
 
 Seona Bellamy wrote:
 
  * On pages like About Us and Contact Details, the centre banner 
 apparently
  stays stuck at the top of the screen (i.e., the content of the page
  disappears under it as you scroll, and it's always on screen). 
 Does anyone
  else get this problem? I don't. More importantly, if anyone 
 else does, how
  do I make it stay in place?
  
  * If you browse the catalogue, sometimes the product listings 
 don't come up
  straight away. The page loads, finishes loading, and expands to 
 its required
  height, but the content doesn't show up until you roll your mouse over a
  link. Then it magically pops into view. I only get this problem 
 sometimes,
  they apparently get it all the time, and I can't figure out why it's
  happening.
  
  * In the View Details page for any of the products, there should be an
  Enquire Now button. It's there on mine. It's not there on the 
 client's. They
  don't believe that it's really there at all, in spite of the 
 fact that I can
  look in the code and see it.
 
 G'day Seona
 
 I'm afraid that I can't replicate any of the problems at all. I've used 
 Firefox 0.92, IE6, Netscape 7.1, Opera 7.23 on WinXP (with all the 
 latest patches bar SP2) and Safari 1.2 on OSX
 
 However, the latter problem in particular sounds like a caching problem, 
 either on the client's personal system or on their (or their ISP's) 
 proxy server. The other two could potentially be something to do with 
 the clients' settings, whether OS, browser or network
 
 If at all possible, I suggest investigating the problems from the 
 client's computer since you are unable to replicate them yourself. Get 
 the client to show you themselves. Then (if you haven't spotted a 
 problem yet) use their computer yourselves to try replication. If you 
 can replicate, then chase down the problem from there
 
 Sorry I couldn't help more
 
 Cheers,
 Lachlan
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RE: [WSG] Can someone reproduce these issues for me please?

[Seona Bellamy]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Nick Gleitzman

  * On pages like About Us and Contact Details, the centre banner 
  apparently
  stays stuck at the top of the screen (i.e., the content of the page
  disappears under it as you scroll, and it's always on screen). Does 
  anyone
  else get this problem? I don't. More importantly, if anyone else does, 
  how
  do I make it stay in place?
 
 Sounds like an issue with position: fixed. There again, if by 'centre 
 banner' you mean the Flash file, it doesn't validate... Suggest you 
 search the archive on this list for valid ways to include Flash files, 
 or look for Flash Satay at A List Apart.
 

Yeah, this is the one remaining thing on my page that doesn't validate. I'll
have a look at the alternative methods now that I have a bit of breathing
space in this project.

  * If you browse the catalogue, sometimes the product listings don't 
  come up
  straight away. The page loads, finishes loading, and expands to its 
  required
  height, but the content doesn't show up until you roll your mouse over 
  a
  link. Then it magically pops into view. I only get this problem 
  sometimes,
  they apparently get it all the time, and I can't figure out why it's
  happening.
 
 Sounds like either the Peekaboo or Guillotine bug. See 
 http://www.positioniseverything.net/ for fixes.
 

Awesome. Turns out it was an attack of the peekaboo bug. Funny though, I
could have sworn I tried applying that fix once before, then removed it when
it didn't seem to help... Oh well, at least it's working now. *grin*

  * In the View Details page for any of the products, there should be an
  Enquire Now button. It's there on mine. It's not there on the 
  client's. They
  don't believe that it's really there at all, in spite of the fact that 
  I can
  look in the code and see it.
 
 I presume the button is a form element. Form elements are really touchy 
 in XHTML. Again, search the archive for clues.
 

No, it was just an image with a link around it. Anyway, I solved the problem
by deciding that it didn't really need to sit in the top right after all and
would look just fine sitting above the main content. SO without any fancy
positioning applied to it, it seems to be showing up fine.

 Difficult to be any more precise without info on what browser you're 
 developing/testing on, and what browsers are showing the problem. Also, 
 step one should *always* be to validate your code. You'll be chasing 
 your tail for days, otherwise.
 

Did that. Like I said, the only non-validating thing left (before today's
work that is, so I'll be re-validating before I finish up for the night) was
the Flash movies. They'll hopefully be gone soon too.

 If your client is seeing glitches with an old, non-compliant browser, 
 suggest to him that he updates it. If he objects on the basis that some 
 visitors will still get the problem show him how small the percentage 
 is of visitors to his site who are actually using the old/bad browser - 
 I bet it's tiny.
 

*grin* Already there with you. I had been told that they were using
IE6/Win98 in the office, so I didn't worry as much about making the admin
side of the site work in anything older. Then I was on site with them one
day, had a look, and found out that they were actually using IE5. *sigh*
Needless to say, they were willing enough to upgrade once I told them that
most of their problems with the back-end would disappear if they did. :) And
most of them did... just one or two that decided to be particularly
persistent.

 If that doesn't work, stop trying to use XHTML. HTML4 is perfectly 
 valid, and can still be Standards-compliant. We don't *have* to use 
 XHTML; design and usability should come first. See 
 http://www.zeldman.com/daily/0804b.shtml for an interesting take on 
 this.


I may consider that for future projects. This one's too near completion for
such a reworking to be feasible - if all goes well, we hope to sign off on
it at the end of the week. *crossing fingers in hope* 

 HTH

It did. Thanks. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

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[WSG] Why has the background jumped to the right in IE?

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

If you have a look at this page in IE6/Win (not sure if it does the same in
IE5 or not) you might see that the Today's Special box is floating out
over the main content. It is supposed to sit under the picture that it
beside it and to the right. It did this perfectly yesterday, and does it
fine in Mozilla, but today it doesn't want to sit right and I can't figure
out why.

In the same browser, the right menu bar is also not showing up anymore.
Again, I can't work out where it's gone or why.

Please, can some kind soul have a peek and tell me why it doesn't work?

http://216.119.123.23/

Thanks in advance,

Seona.

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RE: [WSG] Why has the background jumped to the right in IE?

[Seona Bellamy]

Great, that gets the misbehaving background back in place. But it still
hasn't cured my disappearing menu. I've found that it's also moved off to
the right, thus disappearing off the screen. *sigh*

Thanks for the background fix, though. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
 Sent: Friday, 6 August 2004 10:47 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Why has the background jumped to the right in IE?
 
 
 Not looked too closely at your markup or existing CSS, but adding
 #specials_pane { position: absolute; top: 0; }
 seems to cure the problem in IE6
 
 Patrick H. Lauke
 __
 re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively. [latin : re-,
 re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
 http://www.splintered.co.uk | http://www.photographia.co.uk |
 http://redux.deviantart.com
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Seona Bellamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WSG List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 1:16 AM
 Subject: [WSG] Why has the background jumped to the right in IE?
 
 
  Hi guys,
 
  If you have a look at this page in IE6/Win (not sure if it does the same
 in
  IE5 or not) you might see that the Today's Special box is floating out
  over the main content. It is supposed to sit under the picture that it
  beside it and to the right. It did this perfectly yesterday, and does it
  fine in Mozilla, but today it doesn't want to sit right and I 
 can't figure
  out why.
 
  In the same browser, the right menu bar is also not showing up anymore.
  Again, I can't work out where it's gone or why.
 
  Please, can some kind soul have a peek and tell me why it doesn't work?
 
  http://216.119.123.23/
 
  Thanks in advance,
 
  Seona.
 
  __
   ella for Spam Control  has removed Spam messages and set 
 aside Later
  for me
  You can use it too - and it's FREE!  http://www.ellaforspam.com
 
  ---
  Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
  Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
  Version: 6.0.733 / Virus Database: 487 - Release Date: 2/08/2004
 
 
  *
  The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
  for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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FIXED: [WSG] Why has the background jumped to the right in IE?

[Seona Bellamy]

Ignore my last message, I've managed to fix the navbar problem. Added
Position:relative to the CSS for the navbar and back it came. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
 Sent: Friday, 6 August 2004 10:47 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Why has the background jumped to the right in IE?
 
 
 Not looked too closely at your markup or existing CSS, but adding
 #specials_pane { position: absolute; top: 0; }
 seems to cure the problem in IE6
 
 Patrick H. Lauke
 __
 re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively. [latin : re-,
 re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
 http://www.splintered.co.uk | http://www.photographia.co.uk |
 http://redux.deviantart.com
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Seona Bellamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WSG List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 1:16 AM
 Subject: [WSG] Why has the background jumped to the right in IE?
 
 
  Hi guys,
 
  If you have a look at this page in IE6/Win (not sure if it does the same
 in
  IE5 or not) you might see that the Today's Special box is floating out
  over the main content. It is supposed to sit under the picture that it
  beside it and to the right. It did this perfectly yesterday, and does it
  fine in Mozilla, but today it doesn't want to sit right and I 
 can't figure
  out why.
 
  In the same browser, the right menu bar is also not showing up anymore.
  Again, I can't work out where it's gone or why.
 
  Please, can some kind soul have a peek and tell me why it doesn't work?
 
  http://216.119.123.23/
 
  Thanks in advance,
 
  Seona.
 
  __
   ella for Spam Control  has removed Spam messages and set 
 aside Later
  for me
  You can use it too - and it's FREE!  http://www.ellaforspam.com
 
  ---
  Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
  Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
  Version: 6.0.733 / Virus Database: 487 - Release Date: 2/08/2004
 
 
  *
  The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
  for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
  *
 
 
 
 
 
 
 *
 The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
 * 
 
 
 ---
 Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
 Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
 Version: 6.0.733 / Virus Database: 487 - Release Date: 2/08/2004
 

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attachment: winmail.dat

[WSG] Wierd spacing issue after floats

[Seona Bellamy]

Another question for all you clever folk in Standardsland, and I can't help but 
feel that the answer will probably be something really simple. I can't find it 
though.

If you go to the link below, you will see that there is an odd space between 
the rows of tabs and the start of the content. This happens on a number of 
pages and I've noticed that the gap always extends just to the bottom of the 
right-hand menu. So I figure it has to be something to do with the menu, 
possibly about the floating, but I can't seem to find a way to make that space 
go away.

Any suggestions? Please? You can see the problem at:

http://216.119.123.23/index.cfm?
fuseaction=catalogue.ListProductsID=2category=Subcategory


Cheers,

Seona.
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RE: [WSG] Why won't my background images show up in IE?

[Seona Bellamy]

Hmm... Thanks, that did seem to make a difference. At any rate, the images are
showing up. But instead of tiling nicely across the page, they're showing one to
a line and spreading over the whole width of the panel. I've had a look, and I'm
not sure how to fix that. (It still works fine in Moz)

The styles for the tabs are in the sheet nav_tabs.css if you want to take a look.

Thanks,

Seona.

Quoting Jason Turnbull [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

  Bellamy wrote:
 
 http://216.119.123.23/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalogue.ListProductsID=2c
 at
  egory=Subcategory
  
  Have a look, tell me what you see. If you can see them fine, then I
 think
  I might just go quietly insane... ;)
 
 There was definitely a problem in IE6 the whole navigation was invisible
 here, removing the position:relative from the #mainPanel style (in
 sample.css) brought the menu back into view
 
 Regards
 Jason
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RE: [WSG] Why won't my background images show up in IE?

[Seona Bellamy]

Aha! Thank you so much, that's fixed the problem nicely. This is what happens
when you work from two different tutorials in two different files - you lose
track of what changes are going to affect something else. :)

The tabs are now behaving themselves nicely, and so is my main navigation (I think).

As far as hiding from other browsers, I was aware that it was hidden from IE/Mac
by the commented backslash (that's what the tutorial said, anyway) but is there
a more effective way of hiding it from all the browsers that we don't want to
see it?

Thanks for your help.

Cheers,

Seona.

Quoting Jason Turnbull [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

  Seona Bellamy wrote:
  Hmm... Thanks, that did seem to make a difference. At any rate, the
 images
  are showing up. 
  But instead of tiling nicely across the page, they're showing one to
  a line and spreading over the whole width of the panel. I've had a
 look,
  and I'm not sure how to fix that. (It still works fine in Moz)
 
 In your nav_main.css you have
 
 HTML UL LI {
   FLOAT: left; HEIGHT: 1%
 }
 HTML UL LI A {
   HEIGHT: 1%
 }
 
 Add the #navbar selector in front of these styles, as you have done with
 the others in this css file
 
 Using height:1% is usually a workaround for IE bugs so you might want to
 hide them from other browsers
 
 Regards
 Jason
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RE: [WSG] Why won't my background images show up in IE?

[Seona Bellamy]

No probs. :) Thanks for the tip, I'll have to have a look at that one.

And thanks for all your help this afternoon. It's been really appreciated.
You've saved me hours of work and a head of hair. ;)

Cheers,

Seona.

Quoting Jason Turnbull [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

  Seona Bellamy wrote:
  As far as hiding from other browsers, I was aware that it 
  was hidden from IE/Mac by the commented backslash 
  (that's what the tutorial said, anyway) but is
  there a more effective way of hiding it from all the 
  browsers that we don't want to see it?
 
 My apologies, saved the page in IE and it removed all comments
 
 Another way to feed styles to IE only is using conditional comments
 http://www.quirksmode.org/css/condcom.html
 
 This is the preferred method by many others on this list, as it allows
 easier maintenance in the future and keeps your main style sheets clean.
 
 Regards
 Jason

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Re: [WSG] The best way to make a tabbed menu with a dynamic number of items?

[Seona Bellamy]

Thanks Mordechai. I played around with it a bit and got it so that it doesn't 
seem to work too badly.

Is there a way of centring a set of floated items? I think it would look better 
if the second line only has a couple of items if they were all centred.

I'm guessing that putting the whole lot of them into a div will probably come 
into it somewhere, but what do I do to the div?

Cheers,

Seona.

Quoting Mordechai Peller [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Seona Bellamy wrote:
 
 I'm wanting to make a tabbed menu like the one suggested in ALA's Sliding
 Doors I  II. All well and good, but the menu will be dynamically
 generated
 and won't have a fixed number of items - from page to page it will differ.
 There could be as few as four or as many as 12. Therefore, I need a way to
 make sure that if there's more than will fit across the page, it will
 start
 a new line of tabs which will nestle in under the old ones.
 
 When the next floated element in a series doesn't have enough room, it 
 automatically starts on a new line.
 
 If you want to have more control, you have a problem. You would need to 
 use JavaScript because the font size in pixels isn't known by the 
 server, and it is subject to change by the user.
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Re: [WSG] Comment syntax in external javascript files?

[Seona Bellamy]

Just a quick related question, but when you put your javascript into an 
external file, do you need to put the script tags into the file as well? Or 
do you just have the code in there and then call it in via the script tag below?

Cheers,

Seona.

Quoting Lachlan Hardy [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  script type=text/javascript src=thing.js/script
 
 I do it as per Dan's example above. It validates as XHTML 1.0 Strict and 
 I haven't identified any problems with it
 
 Cheers,
 Lachlan
 
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Re: [WSG] Comment syntax in external javascript files?

[Seona Bellamy]

Thanks. I thought that might have been the case, but I wasn't sure so it never 
hurts to check.

Cheers,

Seona.

Quoting Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Of course you don't want to have the script tag in the external js file.
 script is an (x)html tag, so it does not belong in a text/javascript
 file.
 
 Patrick H. Lauke
 __
 re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively. [latin : re-,
 re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
 http://www.splintered.co.uk | http://www.photographia.co.uk |
 http://redux.deviantart.com
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Seona Bellamy
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 12:47 AM
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Comment syntax in external javascript files?
 
 
  Just a quick related question, but when you put your javascript into an
  external file, do you need to put the script tags into the file as
 well?
 Or
  do you just have the code in there and then call it in via the script tag
 below?
 
  Cheers,
 
  Seona.
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