I believe that MC will be the only way to write a GO program in the
near future leaving the other stuff in the dust ...
...
I am certain it is for 19x19. Just look at the KGS games of Mogo on
19x19. I played one game against it, and won. I got the feeling it was
slightly easier to beat than
I think stl vector implementation on my linux box takes much more memory than
necessary (I mean using a memory pool, and a big time against memory
tradeoff), so perhaps being carefull, with 16 GB we could reach 20 minutes.
The STL vector is fairly efficient, especially if you are using
Amazon Elastic Compute Cloud might be cheaper @ $0.10 per instance-hour
consumed.
doesn't the 'amazing amazon elastic waistband' require you to write
all of your code using windows-based hooks? that kind've turns me off.
You may be confusing with Amazon Simple Storage Service (which
Note that professionals do not play perfect endgame, ...
Enough, apparently, that it separates a world champion from a
run-of-the-mill 9-dan.
Also, post-mortem analysis of pro games published in go magazines
routinely finds some game-result changing improvements in the endgame.
Yes, though
This was not tested in any formal way, but including the book does seem
to increase the chance that the program will open with E5 (which I
believe is the correct opening move on 9x9) ...
Just a side note, as I've spent a lot of time studying high-level 9x9
games. I've seen strong players win
it is a rather small picture, but do the terminal positions of 19x19
games between very strong players show more fractal qualities (or some
other physics thing) than between, say, 15 kyu amateurs?
Yes. Pro games are near a limit of (un)-stability. ...
- Beginners are under critical
- Pro
programs play a weak
opening then make up for it later. It'd be interesting to see the komi
study using a full-strength version of Mogo and using an opening book
(ideally with results split by first move).
Darren
--
Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free
is board-size independent.
And the same applies even between top professionals: look at how many
really top-class players claim their endgame is the strongest part of
the game.
Darren
--
Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free dictionary)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About
everyone stronger than about 10 kyu to tie for
first place. But what you will find is the ordering will be very close
to 19x19 go rank. (You can also see this on go servers that maintain a
different rank for each board size.)
Darren
--
Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German
Similarly, most kinds of endgame skill essentially vanish on a 4x4
board:
Yes, my thesis crumbles on the tiny boards: I think 9x9 is the smallest
board size where 19x19 playing strength is very significant. (Endgame
skill is important at 9x9: I've found games where a mid-dan player has
lost to
not have a choice: google is giving me 0 hits on adaptable error
filter.
Darren
--
Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free dictionary)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://dcook.org/work/charts/ (My flash charting demos
in alpha-beta.
Darren
--
Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free dictionary)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://dcook.org/work/charts/ (My flash charting demos)
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computer-go
No one plays 9x9 go. There is no literature on 9x9 theory, and almost no
examples of professional play.
9x9 *is* played by professionals, at least in Japan, but naturally with
neither big prize money, nor students wanting to pay to learn it, it is
not played that seriously, and usually with
The best source of 9x9 professional games is the Mini-go TV series,
which finished a few years back, but should have close to 700 games if
you can track down the complete set.
Where would one begin to track down this show?
Others have already given the main links. While hunting for some
MINIGO ICHIBAN SHOUBU would be a reading of Japanese .
(Translation would be Mini go sudden death.)
Are you kidding? ICHIBAN SHOUBU means one game match.
Eh, doesn't sudden death mean one game match in English?
Sudden death means that as soon as one scores a point/goal they become
Can anyone share their estimates of RAM used per 100k playouts, or
other appropriate measure?
As part of my study of libego I've had the same question.
100K playouts (from an empty board) creates an UCT tree of around 21,000
nodes, which is using 795K. The node class uses 20 bytes, which is
http://greencheeks.homelinux.org:8015/~drd/public/study.jpg
...
I'm actually testing 2 programs - both of them UCT style go
programs, but one of those programs does uniformly random
play-outs and the other much stronger one is similar to
Mogo, as documented in one of their papers.
Hi Don,
than 10% black wins). The above results were using
libego out of the box, so it is easy to prove your theory experimentally.
Darren
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Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free dictionary)
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Valkyria uses to methods to bias playouts towards better moves.
Thanks for the reply Magnus. You said it will always try to react to the
last move, and only if no reaction needed will it choose a random move.
It sounds like that is something you only want late in the game, so is
that what you
smaller for larger boards. The only part of our program that is not
strictly ANSI C++ compliant is is_there_input(), ...
...
return select(1,read,write,except,timeout);
...
If you are interested on a Windows equivalent, I might be able to
provide one.
Hi Alvaro,
I'm interested in a
to be taken with a grain of salt. And Google
won the competition because they tuned their algorithms using Bleu.
Darren
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Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free dictionary)
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Heikki Levanto wrote:
I don't make any tests for the first 20 moves. Thereafter, I
resign if
- I have no stones left on board
- I have less than half the number of stones my opponent has
I also pass if my opponent has no stones left on board.
Eduardo Sabbatella wrote:
My cut logic was:
What is the most extreme example of being behind (either by X stones, or
by some percentage, such as Heikki's 50% above) where the losing player
can make a comeback and win the game (assume perfect play by both
players from that point)?
I realized this is quite trivial: a board position where
I just received the June issue of Scientific American and
found a 1.5 page article on Computer Go and UCT.
Just so I'm ready next time a computer go question comes up at a pub
quiz, it says the Monte Carlo method was First incorporated into Go
Programs in the 1970s. I'd have guessed 30 years
I've been messing around with where to apply heuristics. Candidates
include:
1) In the UCT tree, since this is earliest in each playout.
2) In the moves beyond the tree (heavy playouts), since this is where
most of the moves happen. Because this part is so speed-critical, ...
Remi (using
In the second game against CrazyStone it played like a weak
MC-program in the opening - playing all moves in the center and
allowing Crazystone as white to make two rock solid groups which in
my experience should be an easy win for white. But Crazystone then
played some slow moves and made a
The game:
http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/round.php?tournament=169round=9id=2
Sylvain posted some anaylsis from MoGo side. Following are my comments
(KGS 4k) as I understand the situation:
After white (mogo) H2, MoGo was estimating 74%, and expecting:
H2 G1 H3 B1 A1 B3 H1 F8 B5 H4
libego is a very optimised library. indeed, very hard
to change. If it fits your needs, go for it. Its
simply the best you can do.
BUT, If you want to try different MCGO approachs with
libego, I'm sure it will be far more hard to change
than using slowish java.
I've been refactoring the
I think Remi was making the point that the CrazyStone games were played
at a time control not usually played in serious games. Therefore he
concludes the rating was inflated. ... If you spend too much time
building up a won position, how can you claim a moral victory if you
lose on time?
I thought the point being made was that the games were played without
byo-yomi.
Isn't that a time control not usually played in serious games?
No, the other way round: all serious ama or pro games (at least, that I
know of) are played with byo-yomi. In the two-day tournaments the
byo-yomi
After throwing out the low and high ratings the top 5 players average
about 132 ELO per doubling and the bottom 5 average an increase of
about 210 per doubling.
...
I suspect Lazarus at
the highest level I tested is within a few hundred ELO points of
perfect play. It's still a long way
Don wrote:
Presumably, if you run 1000 random play-outs from a given position you
will get a fair indication of how good the position is.
But what if you are able to prune out many of the bad moves in that
simulation? Would this improve the accuracy of the simulation?
Probably,
At $39.95 that's just shy of $16 million. Wow Even at $1 a copy that's
almost 1/2 a million dollars.
I'm reminded of a post this list about 10 years ago (maybe by Mark
Boon?), probably in the context of winning the Ing prize: if you are a
very good programmer, there are easier ways to get rich
Or did you mean it is too much bother to connect with gogui while
also running your code in a debugger?
That would be great! How do you do that (without going through a
million zillion steps each time)? I use Visual Studio.
Can Visual Studio connect to a running process?
On linux you'd do
I thought the rules for Go were rather simplistic when it came to scoring:
Count all eyes, and spaces owned by each player and each captured
stone counted as a point. Whoever had the most points wins.
How does that differ from Japanese, Chinese, Korean?
Hi Josh,
Many of your recent
New lesson learned. It depends on the rule set if something is correct
or a blunder.
So far the Go-masters told me, it does not matter, its practically the
same. Obviously its not. This is not some weired, constructed
position, it really happened and it does not look strange at all.
I
I actually think that under Chinese rules White wins too because
Black owes 1 point for playing the last (and first) move.
...
I got this from the AGA rules which I (falsly?) assumed to use
chinese counting (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/AGA.html)
I only saw this in section 4, on
I got this from the AGA rules which I (falsly?) assumed to use
chinese counting (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/AGA.html)
At one time, the Chinese rules compensated White with an extra point
when Black got the last move. If Black's last move was to fill a ko he
or she had won,
I always used a 1-dimensional 25x25 = 625 integer array with 0 for
black 1 for white 2 for empty and 3 for border (everything else).
This way I can have a 21x21 board with 2 rows of border cells
surrounding it.
David Fotland, on the other hand, seems to use a 19x19 grid, and detect
I don't use functions to convert 0-n to x, y. I use arrays of constants
instead. It's faster.
APD.get_x(d), for instance, is doing a lookup in an array that is made
by the constructor once when the program starts up. Everything is inline
so it is the same.
Darren
/license.html
--
Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free dictionary)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
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computer-go@computer
What I am calling random playouts for the purposes of this article
give all legal moves equal weight and randomly chooses one of them,
and this process is used for both players all the way to the end of
the game.
I get the impression that this also includes filling single point
eyes. Is
The statement will never give a strong computer go program. is rather
devoid of meaning. You either should define strong ...
OK, I'll add something. By strong I mean dan level.
I definitely agree that once you've played a few thousand uniformly
random games, there is little to be gained by
be surprised if the UCT experts on this list will find much new
there, but I hope some people will find it of value.
Thanks to Magnus Persson for reviewing an earlier version.
Darren
--
Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free dictionary)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About
I can
make the histogram and derive the median that way. E.g. 100 distinct
numbers means I just need 100 counters. I also get the mode as a bonus.
--
Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free dictionary)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://dcook.org
?). A quick google confirmed python is buffering stdout, but I
couldn't find the flush command.
Darren
--
Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free dictionary)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://dcook.org/work/charts/ (My flash charting demos
What are the options for someone who ... doesn't have a Linux system
currently?
LiveCDs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiveCD ) allow you to do a
temporary linux installation.
Of course, then you have to decide which one, and which distro. I would
think any of those marked for general in this
Thank you for the releases of the Windows version and the Linux
version for older processors.
The Windows version, however, seems much weaker than MoGo that running
on KGS these days on 19x19, even giving much longer time setting such
as --time 300 for example. I guess some other
that says how many nodes it is carrying over?)
Darren
--
Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free dictionary)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
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Looking at the performance of hb-amaf-1k I suspect you have some
serious bug(s)
... I'm starting to run out of ideas. ...
As Magnus suggested, look at some of the games you are losing but should
be winning. When I was testing libego vs. gnugo, and libego was losing
everything, it wasn't until
It preserves the tree if and only if you add:
--pondering 1
If you don't want to use pondering, but you still want to keep the tree
between moves, add
--keepTreeIfPossible 1
(not documented, and from my memory, it may be not the right option :p)
Good guess, that worked. It sometimes is
.
Darren
--
Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free dictionary)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
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I wouldn't put it as strongly, but I also noticed that MC and UCT and suclike
techniques were not mentioned at all.
to be fair to the article, in fact they were. you just have to click on all
of the
links in the article to see it.
For others, like me, who missed the link, it is here:
moves for black, and
white's confidence rose to 0.6, but no higher. I.e. Mogo is seeing white
is dead in some paths, but it is seeing white is alive in more paths.
--
Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free dictionary)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work
yes. Allowing everyone to add non-standard properties means that
you cannot validate the files in a meaningful way anymore.
Also, I haven't really seen convincing use cases for non-standard
properties. SGF defines (more than) enough, even if some of them
are a bit underspecified ...
I've
How does one configure MoGo to do a fixed number of playouts per move?
I saw only time-based command line options.
On Oct 7th Sylvain wrote:
--nbTotalSimulations 3000
Once you set this option it ignores all other time settings.
Darren
___
On Oct 2nd 2007 Heikki wrote:
I was thinking that it could be quicker to do prototyping in something like
python, while having fast low-level functions in C. Since we already have
Lukasz Lew's ego library, I wonder if anyone has written a wrapper around it
to call it from python (or ruby,
But as one who has to program some php for living, I wonder why would you
like to use a language like that? I am *so* tired of the way it happily
declares a new variable when you mistype one, or finds mistyped function
names only at run time, if you happen to call that function...
Or
[XML] is like going backwards to the 60ies (OK, there are some thing
XML is good for -- is't developed as HTML successor and in this area
XML has quite some advantages; in some cases it's also good as
intermediate data exchange format, but not always; as an primary
format to save data in
(I just joined this list last week, this is my first post)
Hi Colin, welcome to the group.
I still find it easier and faster to code in Java (using Eclipse) than
with C++. The OP mentioned that Java is slow, but I have actually
read that in the recent years it has become comparably faster
as all about safety. But it is about
describing the problem more accurately to the computer so that it can
not just find more bugs at compile-time but also so it can generate
better code at compile-time.
Darren
--
Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free
9x9 games is a bit silly. it doesn't actually capture any extra
information about the program, since there's no such thing as
a 9x9 rank to compare with/against, much less a dan rank.
I disagree. In my studies of 9x9, over a number of years, the human
19x19 rank generally carries over to 9x9.
, they do have a concept of nakade.
(I hope Remi, or one of the Mogo developers, will correct me if I've
misunderstood what is going on.)
Darren
--
Darren Cook
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese free dictionary)
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http://dcook.org/work
Joshua Shriver wrote:
I've been looking into GPGPU for several years now, there was even some buzz
in the comp-chess stream but the downsides seemed to be to much. Think the
big problem is the latency on the PCI/AGP bus. Though that might not be as
much an issue now with PCI-x, etc.
Thanks.
I was thinking that it could be quicker to do prototyping in something
like python, while having fast low-level functions in C. ...
I have done a Python binding for the current libego. You can get it from
http://mjw.woodcraft.me.uk/2007/pyego/ .
I did this as an exercise in using Pyrex
://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=sumcollang=all
Darren
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Darren Cook
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http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/
To clarify: I don't really like these non-scientific benchmarks (in
many cases I assume no one or only really few people (not including
me) really understand what each micro-benchmark is really measuring).
I posted the link to the Shoot-out site as it
the OS is constant, they seem to offer benchmarks on 4 different
hardware platforms
Sorry for the noise. I mis-read the top page: they use two platforms,
Gentoo on Pentium 4, and Debian on AMD Sempron. (They are very roughly
the same, but java6-server stands out as being considerably quicker on
One more puzzle: this processor is rated at 2.4GHz,
but cpuinfo tells a different story:
It's because SpeedStep is working. You can stop it in BIOS setting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeedStep
Thanks! I've the same CPU and just discovered mine is running at 1.6Ghz
too! For linux users
1K ~ 100 K / sec is much faster than a dozen / sec of a conventional
program.
Do they calculate dragon safety (eyes, connections, patterns ...)? if not,
the estimate will be VERY unreliable.
No, because they play the game out to the end where everything is as
safe as it can be. Then,
In one of my posts I'm pretty sure I published the raw data.
Nevertheless, I will see if I can find the data. ...
Hi Don,
Around Jun 26th last year you sent me (or I downloaded) some files. I
have 04.tar.bz2, 05.tar.bz2, 06.tar.bz2 (which I think is cgos
archives), cgos.tar.gz,
I'm not the only one on this list whose first go program was
based on influence calculations; it'd be somehow warm and comforting to
have a reason to try it again ;-)
Darren
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Darren Cook
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/collection/sgfview.php?id=17016
Extremely rare plan: Black played the ladder (79-105), which was not
working, but he got nice compensation
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Darren Cook
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... it would explain the scaling curve flattening out.
Though the curve can also be flattened/made-curvier by changing the base
of the x-axis. Currently it is log-2. Proportional to actual playouts
would make it appear flatter.
Darren
___
... it would explain the scaling curve flattening out.
Though the curve can also be flattened/made-curvier by changing the base
of the x-axis. Currently it is log-2. Proportional to actual playouts
would make it appear flatter.
No, that would make it appear more curved if I
See the handtalk's winning rates on cgos 9x9
(http://cgos.boardspace.net/9x9/cross/handtalk.html).
He won agains MoGo at 60% but his rating is about 200 ELO behind
it. This happened probably because he know MoGo's weakpoint,
misunderstanding of LD at corners (including Nakde) very well,
...
That mogo would not know to move to nakade point c1 with either color?
Mogo tends to get confused on nakade positions when there are still
external liberties. Here is my report on this with a couple of examples:
http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/2007-October/011327.html
If I've
Unfortunately, I used level 10 in the gnugo only games but in the big
study we use level 8. ...
... it's a major pain running those games and it ties up my
machine.
Hi Don,
I just know your reply is going to make me slap my head and go, of
course, but I've been puzzling over this for 2
9.5pt komi is unreasonable. I agree with Don that perfect game value
will probably turn out to be 7pts, though I'm keeping an open mind that
it may be 6pts. I'd be surprised if it was 8pts, though that could just
mean I've been analyzing the wrong openings :-).
On 9x9 with Chinese rules
like this mailing list, CGOS, open source
projects, etc.
By data I mean things like: game records, or board positions, marked up
with correct/incorrect moves; game records generally; pattern libraries;
test suites; opening libraries.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http
and the top programs).
Darren
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open source dictionary/semantic network)
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be coincidence.)
Darren
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http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash, i18n, linux
on a really good opening library
(or connection patterns, or optimized UCT implementation, or whatever is
needed most).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic
other major go servers.)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
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may favour white.
Darren
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Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
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open source dictionary/semantic network)
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there is indirectly some go
opening knowledge (aka good shape) in the heavy playout algorithms.)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About
Yes, MoGo gained much more from the longer time setting than Mr. Kim
did. Note that Mr. Kim used very little of his time in the one-hour
game. He said after the match that using more time would not have helped
him.
I imagine that is typical as white in a handicap game; you play solid,
good
situation for solving it.
I believe go, on any size board, is already solved (using the minimax
algorithm) in both finite time and memory. (At least for a ruleset
using super-ko; I'm not so sure about Japanese rules.)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English
:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?ComplexityOfGo
[2]: (Sorry, cannot find the URL at the moment.)
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emotional whichever words you use.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog
).
Or it could keep adjusting komi (until it reaches the actual komi) so
that it thinks it is only just winning.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http
at leaf nodes?
I remember reading that when nakade support was adding to Mogo it made
it slightly stronger at 9x9, but weaker at 19x19. Was this version
released, and can nakade support be switched on and off at the commandline?
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http
% (+/- 20%) win
(against themselves). (I.e. I'm saying their error margin in the opening
is much greater than the difference in their estimate of move values.)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
anyone says I forgot the smiley, I'm being serious: people will
mind losing less to a pretty machine than losing to a cube of metal;
just as an elderly man would rather the above android helps them to the
toilet than something that looks R2-D2.)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher
small experiment, faking komi chooses different moves,
but they are probably equally good.
Darren
--
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http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash, i18n, linux
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash, i18n, linux
uses MCTS.
(I hope someone will let me know if not, as I'd then have to sit up and
readjust my view of the universe :-).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic
can be
a forced sequence of more than one move, or something like that)?
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my
would do on that :-).
Darren
[1]:
http://www.top500.org/blog/2008/06/14/preview_31st_top500_list_world_s_most_powerful_supercomputers_topped_world_s_first_petaflop_s_system
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
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