Re: Modal Logic (Part 1: Leibniz)

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Jan 2014, at 01:56, LizR wrote: On 25 January 2014 23:56, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: if p is true (in this world, say) then it's true in all worlds that p is true in at least one world. You need just use a conditional (if). The word asked was if. OK? OK. I think I

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Jan 2014, at 13:13, ronaldheld wrote: Without hijacking this massive thread, I am asking if it is worth buying this book, if you are not a believer in the platonic universe, UDA,etc? I would certainly not recommend it if you are interested in cooking pizza. Nor even in the UDA,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 27 January 2014 07:58, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: 2) In 1947 the Double Helix hadn't been discovered yet, and 96% of the very universe itself had not been discovered, they hadn't found Dark Matter or Dark Energy; even Einstein didn't know about that. Dark matter was

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Jan 2014, at 20:23, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Stephen, To combine my responses to several of your posts... I sort of agree with your notion of multiple realities but I would argue these are not the fundamental reality and we must assume a more fundamental reality with the same laws of

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
Thanks for the explanation, Richard. Bruno On 26 Jan 2014, at 23:23, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 25 Jan 2014, at 14:05, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Jan 2014, at 23:26, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear LizR, You and Bruno have often complained that my postings lack rigor... For a nice formal representation of Heraclitean streams click here and read the bit about hypersets. BTW, this is a concept almost identical to what Lou

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 01:36, Stephen Paul King wrote: Like I have written previously, I am past the point of buying the idea that there is a Reality out there independent of us that we passively come to experience. I am tired of explanations that ask us to believe that change is an

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 02:08, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have provided the definition. Should I repeat? God is the transcendental reality we bet on, and which is supposed to be responsible for my or our existence. Sounds like physics to me. Yes. if you

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 02:55, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear LizR, On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 8:37 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 January 2014 13:39, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear LizR, By that standard we would still be living in caves Teehee. Have

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 03:25, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear LizR, George Spencer-Brown's Laws of Form are the place to start... I am not sure. I can appreciate what he did, and what Kauffman did from it, but my experience is that to begin with Spencer Brown makes the study of logic more

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 03:44, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 14:08, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have provided the definition. Should I repeat? God is the transcendental reality we bet on, and which is supposed to be responsible for my or our

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014-01-27 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 27 January 2014 07:58, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: 2) In 1947 the Double Helix hadn't been discovered yet, and 96% of the very universe itself had not been discovered, they hadn't found Dark Matter or Dark Energy; even Einstein didn't know

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 04:00, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 15:50, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2014 1:45 PM, LizR wrote: OK, so your notion of God is whatever is fundamentally responsible for existence - hence primitivematerialism makes matter (energy etc) play the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 05:31, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 6:44 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 14:08, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have provided the definition. Should I repeat? God is the transcendental reality we bet on, and which is

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 05:47, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 7:00 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 15:50, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2014 1:45 PM, LizR wrote: OK, so your notion of God is whatever is fundamentally responsible for existence - hence primitive materialism makes

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 05:49, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 7:22 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 15:25, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear LizR, George Spencer-Brown's Laws of Form are the place to start... I'll add that to my reading list. But on which end? :-)

Re: Better Than the Chinese Room

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 06:07, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:36:11 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: On 26 January 2014 01:35, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: But that doesn't answer the question: do you think (or understand, or whatever you think the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 5:44 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 03:44, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 14:08, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have provided the definition. Should I repeat? God is the

Re: what is the definition of computation?

2014-01-27 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2014-01-24 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be You are a bit non serious here. I have never concluded anything of that kind from computationalism. Marijuana is good because it is a better medication than the most common one for at least 2000 diseases, according to experts in the field, but this

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, I think that where we differ is in how we think of numbers: I see them as merely representational, Parmenidean, you see them as more. The Heraclitean aspect is far more than p for me. On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 26 Jan 2014, at

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, No, time is observer dependent as well as observers supply the measures. Recall that I see time as a local measure of change. Change itself is not observer dependent, it flows eternally as the potential to Be of Becoming. On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 5:00 AM, Bruno Marchal

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 13:01, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 5:44 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 03:44, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 14:08, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have provided the

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 13:21, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, I think that where we differ is in how we think of numbers: I see them as merely representational, Parmenidean, you see them as more. But numbers can be used to represent things, like an address, but they are not

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 13:24, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, No, time is observer dependent as well as observers supply the measures. Sorry, I don't understand. Recall that I see time as a local measure of change. As long as you don't give me what you assume and what you

Re: A theory of dark matter...

2014-01-27 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent and Liz, It seems to me that the whole notion of the elephant being in two places at the SAME TIME presupposes a common present moment. Surely Liz and SA didn't mean that? That would be agreeing with Edgar's present moment of p-time! Remember that this elephant is in different moments of

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 7:27 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 13:01, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 5:44 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 03:44, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 14:08, meekerdb

Re: Would math make God obsolete ?

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 16:12, Brian Tenneson wrote: Yes, some day a computer might be able to figure out that the set of rationals is not equipollent to the set of real numbers. A LĂ´bian machine like ZF can do that already. I saw somewhere that using an automated theorem prover, one of

Re: A theory of dark matter...

2014-01-27 Thread ghibbsa
`` On Monday, January 27, 2014 3:28:47 PM UTC, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, January 23, 2014 8:09:40 PM UTC, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Ghibbsa, The effect of the gravity gradient you keep mentioning is well known NOT to account for the dark matter effect. The fact that it

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Bruno, No, time is observer dependent as well as observers supply the measures. Recall that I see time as a local measure of change. Change itself is not observer dependent, it flows eternally as

Re: A theory of dark matter...

2014-01-27 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Jesse, First this doesn't have anything to do with present moment theory, only with standard physics. 2nd, hopefully it's just a matter of you using different semantics than me as to what is meant by absolute and relative. I'll explain once more. In the case of time dilation effects caused by

Re: A theory of dark matter...

2014-01-27 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 8:50 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Hi Jesse, Sorry if I misunderstood you and for the dismissive comment I apparently misread your comments... As for your other comments in this post. The slowing of the clock in a gravity well is an absolute

Re: what is the definition of computation?

2014-01-27 Thread Richard Ruquist
Comp works whether you are conscious or unconscious, if it works at all. On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 13:16, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2014-01-24 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be You are a bit non serious here. I have never

Re: Would math make God obsolete ?

2014-01-27 Thread Brian Tenneson
Yes, some day a computer might be able to figure out that the set of rationals is not equipollent to the set of real numbers. I saw somewhere that using an automated theorem prover, one of Godel's incompleteness theorems was proved by a computer. The question I raised initially was this: will

Re: A theory of dark matter...

2014-01-27 Thread ghibbsa
On Thursday, January 23, 2014 8:09:40 PM UTC, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Ghibbsa, The effect of the gravity gradient you keep mentioning is well known NOT to account for the dark matter effect. The fact that it doesn't is why dark matter was postulated in the first place. So I don't see that

Re: A theory of dark matter...

2014-01-27 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Ghibbsa, I'm sorry to say I don't follow your alternative gravity effect here and see no source for the effect and thus it seems entirely speculative to me. I'd need some evidence that there was something reasonable that might produce it OR that it would account well for dark matter. In any

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: John should read the book by Jammer on Einstein's religion. 2/3 of that book is really informative about Einstein's religion. Rather than read what Jammer had to say try reading what Einstein himself had to say about God: it was,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 16:33, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 7:27 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 13:01, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 5:44 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 03:44, LizR

Re: Would math make God obsolete ?

2014-01-27 Thread Brian Tenneson
Some basic.questions. When you say PA, do you mean the set of all theorems entailed by the axioms of Peano arithmetic? Does this include the true (relative to PA of course) wffs that are not provable from PA alone? How can it be that PA+con(I) can prove its own consistency because it is

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-27 Thread Jason Resch
On Jan 27, 2014, at 1:24 AM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Jason, As many as are possible. So if it is possible that they all exist, how is that different from block time? Jason On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 1:54 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com

Re: Would math make God obsolete ?

2014-01-27 Thread Gabriel Bodeen
FWIW, under the usual definitions, the rationals are enumerable and so are a smaller set than the reals. I'd suppose that if people can figure that out with our nifty fleshy brains, then a well-designed computer brain could, too. -Gabe On Friday, January 24, 2014 1:23:40 AM UTC-6, Brian

Re: A theory of dark matter...

2014-01-27 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Jesse, First this doesn't have anything to do with present moment theory, only with standard physics. 2nd, hopefully it's just a matter of you using different semantics than me as to what is meant by absolute and

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: I use the exact same definition of life that MILLIONS of people on this planet once used: the word Life refers to some organic matter filled with elan vital. Fine. Organic matter is matter that operates according to the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:55 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Refer to my discourse on solving the hard problem. Forget about solving it, I would much rather read a discourse that clearly and unambiguously explains exactly what the hard problem is. Exactly what is it that you expect

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jan 2014, at 17:18, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: John should read the book by Jammer on Einstein's religion. 2/3 of that book is really informative about Einstein's religion. Rather than read what Jammer had to say try reading what

Re: A theory of dark matter...

2014-01-27 Thread ghibbsa
On Monday, January 27, 2014 4:12:00 PM UTC, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Ghibbsa, I'm sorry to say I don't follow your alternative gravity effect here and see no source for the effect and thus it seems entirely speculative to me. I'd need some evidence that there was something reasonable that

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Einstein illustrates that you can believe in a non personal God. So you believe this non personal thing that has no purpose or goal and can not be understood as having any attribute as anthropomorphic as intelligence or

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 16:33, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 7:27 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 13:01, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 5:44 AM, Bruno

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 26 Jan 2014, at 19:58, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote: GREEK PHILOSOPHERS ARE IGNORAMUSES! I agree, all this Greek ancestor worship

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/27/2014 1:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Jan 2014, at 19:58, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com mailto:multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote: GREEK PHILOSOPHERS ARE IGNORAMUSES! I agree, all this Greek ancestor worship

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/27/2014 2:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 02:08, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have provided the definition. Should I repeat? God is the transcendental reality we bet on, and which is supposed to be responsible for my or our existence.

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/27/2014 3:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 06:55, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 9:19 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 17:31, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2014 6:44 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 14:08, meekerdb

Re: Would math make God obsolete ?

2014-01-27 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 2:23 AM, Brian Tenneson tenn...@gmail.com wrote: There are undecidable statements (about arithmetic)... There are true statements lacking proof. Yes. There are also false statements about arithmetic the proof of whose falsehood is impossible; A proof is a FINITE

Re: A theory of dark matter...

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/27/2014 5:22 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, I don't think my statement is confused. Your response is ambiguous because it doesn't specify frames of reference correctly. The object's clock DOES tick slower according to the external observer's clock, but obviously not by the object's

Re: Would math make God obsolete ?

2014-01-27 Thread Brian Tenneson
You could always just add it and its negation to the list of axioms (though not at the same time, of course) and see where that leads, if anywhere. On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:55 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 2:23 AM, Brian Tenneson tenn...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 6:46 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Einstein illustrates that you can believe in a non personal God. So you believe this non personal thing that has no purpose or goal and can not

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 7:00 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 26 Jan 2014, at 19:58, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote: GREEK

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Richard Ruquist
Brent, Just put the origin of your GR BH solution at the singularity and most all is explained. On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 1:56 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/27/2014 3:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 06:55, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 9:19 PM, LizR wrote:

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 7:56 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/27/2014 3:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 06:55, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 9:19 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 17:31, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2014 6:44 PM, LizR

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Jason Resch
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:51 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: I use the exact same definition of life that MILLIONS of people on this planet once used: the word Life refers to some organic matter filled

Re: A theory of dark matter...

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/27/2014 7:48 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Jesse, First this doesn't have anything to do with present moment theory, only with standard physics. 2nd, hopefully it's just a matter of you using different semantics than me as to what is meant by absolute and relative. I'll explain once more.

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/26/2014 2:14 PM, LizR wrote: Watching Memento gives some idea of what's really going on, by showing what life would be like after a partial breakdown of how the brain fools us into thinking we have continuous existence. It isn't too much of a stretch from imagining living in 5 minute

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/27/2014 9:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: it was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 27 January 2014 23:47, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-01-27 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 27 January 2014 07:58, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: 2) In 1947 the Double Helix hadn't been discovered yet, and 96% of the very universe itself had not been discovered, they

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
I hope those are real quotes. There are quite a few fake Einstein quotes floating around the web. On 28 January 2014 05:18, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: John should read the book by Jammer on Einstein's religion. 2/3 of

Re: A theory of dark matter...

2014-01-27 Thread ghibbsa
On Monday, January 27, 2014 5:34:04 PM UTC, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, January 27, 2014 4:12:00 PM UTC, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Ghibbsa, I'm sorry to say I don't follow your alternative gravity effect here and see no source for the effect and thus it seems entirely speculative to

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/27/2014 12:12 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: So sure yeah, there's no limit to what you can do when you eliminate and don't care about x. Louis C.K. had a good one: Wow, I can't believe we built the pyramids - yeah, we just threw human death and suffering at them until they were built.

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/27/2014 12:21 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:51 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: I use the exact same

Re: Better Than the Chinese Room

2014-01-27 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, January 27, 2014 5:57:55 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 06:07, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:36:11 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: On 26 January 2014 01:35, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: But that doesn't answer the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 06:07, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 17:18, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: John should read the book by Jammer on Einstein's religion. 2/3 of that book is really informative about Einstein's

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 06:46, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You seem to take the Aristotelian (naturalist, materialist, physicalist) theology for granted. I've said more than once that Aristotle was the worst

Re: Better Than the Chinese Room

2014-01-27 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, January 27, 2014 6:15:35 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 06:28, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, January 26, 2014 5:18:53 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Jan 2014, at 15:35, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:41:30 AM UTC-5,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/27/2014 1:52 PM, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 06:46, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You seem to take the Aristotelian (naturalist,

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 27 January 2014 23:56, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 05:49, meekerdb wrote: On 1/26/2014 7:22 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 15:25, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, George Spencer-Brown's Laws of

Re: Better Than the Chinese Room

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 10:59, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I think that 0+1=1 already requires consciousness. If we assume that from the start, then all further argument is begging the question. If something can 'equal' something else, then consciousness is unnecessary. Could you

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 01:21, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear Bruno, I think that where we differ is in how we think of numbers: I see them as merely representational What do they represent? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 09:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2014 2:14 PM, LizR wrote: Watching Memento gives some idea of what's really going on, by showing what life would be like after a partial breakdown of how the brain fools us into thinking we have continuous existence. It

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 11:09, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/27/2014 1:52 PM, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 06:46, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.bewrote: You seem to take the Aristotelian (naturalist,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 09:21, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: But Jason I want to ask you a direct question, and this isn't rhetorical I'd really like an answer: If there is no all encompassing purpose or a goal to existence and if the unknown principle responsible for the existence of

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 09:21, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: But Jason I want to ask you a direct question, and this isn't rhetorical I'd really like an answer: If there is no all encompassing purpose or a goal to existence and if the unknown principle responsible for the existence of

Re: Modal Logic (Part 1: Leibniz)

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 27 January 2014 06:11, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 26 Jan 2014, at 01:56, LizR wrote: On 25 January 2014 23:56, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: if p is true (in this world, say) then it's true in all worlds that p is true in at least one world. You need just use

Re: Church thesis = non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/27/2014 2:20 PM, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 09:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2014 2:14 PM, LizR wrote: Watching Memento gives some idea of what's really going on, by showing what life would be like after a partial breakdown

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Liz, One point not really correct. Penzias and Wilson had no idea what they had discovered until someone told them. They were pretty much routine engineers not first caliber physicists... Edgar On Monday, January 27, 2014 3:51:20 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote: On 27 January 2014 23:47, Quentin

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, Please at least keep the record straight instead of making snide comments about me. I asked How does mass inside a BH produce an gravitational effect outside the event horizon if gravity propagates at the speed of light and nothing can go faster than the speed of light to come out of a

Kevin Knuth's emergent spacetime

2014-01-27 Thread Stephen Paul King
Hi Folks, Check out this paper by Kevin Knuth. In it he shows how one can obtain space-time (and its Lorentz symmetry in the limit) from interactions between observers and some basic relational algebra. http://fqxi.org/data/essay-contest-files/Knuth_fqxi13knuthessayfinal.pdf This is, IMHO,

Re: Kevin Knuth's emergent spacetime

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
Very interesting, and (like spin foams and CDT and LQG) a possible way to get to emergent space-time from something more basic. But why do you say it's an alternative to the block universe? I didn't see anything in there to suggest that. On 28 January 2014 13:51, Stephen Paul King

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/27/2014 2:32 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:09 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/27/2014 12:12 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: So sure yeah, there's no limit to what you can do when you eliminate and

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread meekerdb
On 1/27/2014 4:03 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, Please at least keep the record straight instead of making snide comments about me. I asked How does mass inside a BH produce an gravitational effect outside the event horizon if gravity propagates at the speed of light and nothing can go

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 14:46, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/27/2014 2:32 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:09 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/27/2014 12:12 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: So sure yeah, there's no limit to what you

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread Jason Resch
On Jan 27, 2014, at 4:38 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 January 2014 09:21, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: But Jason I want to ask you a direct question, and this isn't rhetorical I'd really like an answer: If there is no all encompassing purpose or a goal to existence

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 1/27/2014 4:03 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: I asked How does mass inside a BH produce an gravitational effect outside the event horizon if gravity propagates at the speed of light and nothing can go faster than the speed of light to come out of a black hole? Your answer was that when mass

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 1/27/2014 4:03 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: I asked How does mass inside a BH produce an gravitational effect outside the event horizon if gravity propagates at the speed of light and nothing can go faster than the speed of light to come out of a black hole? Your answer was that when mass

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread LizR
On 28 January 2014 16:17, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 27, 2014, at 4:38 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 January 2014 09:21, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: But Jason I want to ask you a direct question, and this isn't rhetorical I'd

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

2014-01-27 Thread John Mikes
Liz wrote Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 3:51 PM: *The expansion of the universe was discovered in the 1920s (I think?) and a primordial explosion was theorised by Lemaitre, but until the discovery of the microwave background in the '60s that was only one of several competing theories put forward to