Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
Thank you Kevin. I understand and appreciate the problem you describe. However, I am not trying to download at 2 Meg; indeed the VOIP app is very happy on a 44 K dial-up with the other Internet provider. There seems to be adequate bandwidth, as I can load my cable connection with additional downloads and it has no effect on the level of packet loss and delay. The garble is at a constant level, whether it is at 8 PM or 5 AM. It seems to me that my VOIP is being tampered with to force me to abandon it in favor of the company VOIP. Others may wish to consider using a link method other than VOIP, depending on their Internet providers. Kevin Custer wrote: Paul Plack wrote: As an engineer of a CATV Internet provider, maybe I can shed some light. Our basic speed is 2M down, and we have optional packages for 4M and 6M. When we do a speed test, it shows the actual speed transferred by our equipment and the servers on the other end. Unfortunately, many of the servers providing services like Yahoo, eBay, MSN, etc. can be loaded down and even with our somewhat humble basic 2M speed we see the effects of what's happening on the other end. These effects get worse to the user as their delivered speed is increased. Folks get 'used to' seeing some sites fly, then believe there is a 'problem' when all of the places they visit don't respond with the same snappiness.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
Mike, My reply was not in response to your packet loss, I was trying to describe other effects that had been brought up in the discussion by Paul. I'm not saying your provider isn't tampering with packets or IP's destine for competitors VoIP servers. What I am saying is depending on the path, things can work differently. Packet filtering, blocking, and delaying can be a huge overhead. Most companies simply don't do anything because it's too much hassle, and too much overhead on core or edge routers. Web surfing and other data transfers don't have the adverse effects of packet loss like what shows up on streaming voice and video. They can be re-sent, prompted by the error correction, and the only thing you see (feel) is the delay in the page loading or the time of a download. I'd say there is something wrong somewhere and the VoIP is just showing how bad the problem really is. Go to a command prompt and type ping 4.2.2.1 -t This will institute a constant ping to a legacy GTE DNS server in Colorado. See what the results are... If your provider is having big trouble, after about 50 or 100 pings, you'll see the loss in a percentage. If they are having only a little trouble, you might see some lost after a few hundred. If you have basic packet loss, the provider need to be notified and given the opportunity to resolve. If they fail to resolve, you have a choice. Good luck, and let us know how you make out. Kevin Custer List Owner Thank you Kevin. I understand and appreciate the problem you describe. However, I am not trying to download at 2 Meg; indeed the VOIP app is very happy on a 44 K dial-up with the other Internet provider. There seems to be adequate bandwidth, as I can load my cable connection with additional downloads and it has no effect on the level of packet loss and delay. The garble is at a constant level, whether it is at 8 PM or 5 AM. It seems to me that my VOIP is being tampered with to force me to abandon it in favor of the company VOIP. Others may wish to consider using a link method other than VOIP, depending on their Internet providers. Kevin Custer wrote: Paul Plack wrote: As an engineer of a CATV Internet provider, maybe I can shed some light. Our basic speed is 2M down, and we have optional packages for 4M and 6M. When we do a speed test, it shows the actual speed transferred by our equipment and the servers on the other end. Unfortunately, many of the servers providing services like Yahoo, eBay, MSN, etc. can be loaded down and even with our somewhat humble basic 2M speed we see the effects of what's happening on the other end. These effects get worse to the user as their delivered speed is increased. Folks get 'used to' seeing some sites fly, then believe there is a 'problem' when all of the places they visit don't respond with the same snappiness.
[Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
OK guys... I thought I could figure this out on my own, but I was wrong. I could use some wisdom from the group! I have been chasing a stubborn case of duplex noise for a long time without success. The 2 meter repeater will run clean all day at 100 watts (or any lower power level) into a quality RF load placed on the antenna port of the duplexer. It will run clean all day with the same load placed at the antenna end of the feedline. With the antenna connected it will SOMETIMES run clean. At other times we get the crackling and popping of duplex noise. And at times we get increased noise floor (I can see it on the receiver limiter current but it has no specific sound, it's just like the normal receiver noise floor came up 20 to 30 dB!) None of this happens when it is run into the RF load. It is only when running into the antenna, and then only sometimes. The steady high noise floor, when present, happens only when my transmitter is up. It happens even if no other transmitters on the hill are up. It will occasionally go for days or even weeks without a glitch, then be essentially unusable for hours or days. The crackling does seem to be worse in windy weather. The steady noise does not seem to be better or worse in any kind of weather, but occurs completely at random as far as I can tell. Three different antennas (all DB or Sinclair, two of them NEW) have been tried with no significant change. The feedline (Andrew LDF5-50A) has been swapped out once with no change. I think that leaves the tower or other nearby metal structures as the prime suspects. The tower is 100 feet of Rohn 25G guyed with 3/16 EHS. I have tried more than once to bond the sections of tower with straps across the leg joints, and similarly where guys attach to the tower and/or turnbuckles etc. at ground level. These efforts did not help and seemed to actually make matters worse. By the way, the guy ends use Big Grips, not clamps. Was that a mistake for a repeater tower? I am looking for advice. If anyone has solved noise problems in a similar tower, I would very much like to know specifically what materials you used and how you installed them that worked for you! I do have another newly erected 100 foot tower close by. It could be part of the problem. However, I was having this problem long before that tower went up so I'm still pointing fingers at my own stuff. A 440 repeater on the same tower does not have any problems. Neither repeater seems to be affected by the other's transmitter. It is only the 2 meter repeater killing itself. Both my tower structure and the new adjacent tower structure are hot with RF from my 2 meter transmitter, as evidenced by horrible noise when something like a screwdriver shaft is lightly rubbed against the towers or guys. I do not find any other metal structures in the vicinity that react that way. There is NO loose hardware in my system. I've been over it time and time again. There is NO visible rust anywhere. Any suggestions before I pull the rest of my rapidly thinning hair out? Here's one for ya... this problem first reared it ugly head right after I put up the tower. For years prior to that I had run the antenna on a rusty metal mast with loose fitting joints without ever a hint of trouble!!! Paul N1BUG 147.105 and 444.950
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Suspect any other nearby fiberglass antenna in your search. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Paul N1BUG paul_n1...@myfairpoint.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:09 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower OK guys... I thought I could figure this out on my own, but I was wrong. I could use some wisdom from the group! I have been chasing a stubborn case of duplex noise for a long time without success. The 2 meter repeater will run clean all day at 100 watts (or any lower power level) into a quality RF load placed on the antenna port of the duplexer. It will run clean all day with the same load placed at the antenna end of the feedline. With the antenna connected it will SOMETIMES run clean. At other times we get the crackling and popping of duplex noise. And at times we get increased noise floor (I can see it on the receiver limiter current but it has no specific sound, it's just like the normal receiver noise floor came up 20 to 30 dB!) None of this happens when it is run into the RF load. It is only when running into the antenna, and then only sometimes. The steady high noise floor, when present, happens only when my transmitter is up. It happens even if no other transmitters on the hill are up. It will occasionally go for days or even weeks without a glitch, then be essentially unusable for hours or days. The crackling does seem to be worse in windy weather. The steady noise does not seem to be better or worse in any kind of weather, but occurs completely at random as far as I can tell. Three different antennas (all DB or Sinclair, two of them NEW) have been tried with no significant change. The feedline (Andrew LDF5-50A) has been swapped out once with no change. I think that leaves the tower or other nearby metal structures as the prime suspects. The tower is 100 feet of Rohn 25G guyed with 3/16 EHS. I have tried more than once to bond the sections of tower with straps across the leg joints, and similarly where guys attach to the tower and/or turnbuckles etc. at ground level. These efforts did not help and seemed to actually make matters worse. By the way, the guy ends use Big Grips, not clamps. Was that a mistake for a repeater tower? I am looking for advice. If anyone has solved noise problems in a similar tower, I would very much like to know specifically what materials you used and how you installed them that worked for you! I do have another newly erected 100 foot tower close by. It could be part of the problem. However, I was having this problem long before that tower went up so I'm still pointing fingers at my own stuff. A 440 repeater on the same tower does not have any problems. Neither repeater seems to be affected by the other's transmitter. It is only the 2 meter repeater killing itself. Both my tower structure and the new adjacent tower structure are hot with RF from my 2 meter transmitter, as evidenced by horrible noise when something like a screwdriver shaft is lightly rubbed against the towers or guys. I do not find any other metal structures in the vicinity that react that way. There is NO loose hardware in my system. I've been over it time and time again. There is NO visible rust anywhere. Any suggestions before I pull the rest of my rapidly thinning hair out? Here's one for ya... this problem first reared it ugly head right after I put up the tower. For years prior to that I had run the antenna on a rusty metal mast with loose fitting joints without ever a hint of trouble!!! Paul N1BUG 147.105 and 444.950
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Thanks Chuck. What would you consider nearby? There is one fiberglass antenna on a tower 60 feet away. It was new when it went up 2 years ago, but my problem existed before that tower/antenna went up. Aside from that the nearest other fiberglass antenna (or antenna of any kind) is 250 feet away. Paul Chuck Kelsey wrote: Suspect any other nearby fiberglass antenna in your search. Chuck WB2EDV
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Three different antennas (all DB or Sinclair, two of them NEW) have been tried with no significant change. The feedline (Andrew LDF5-50A) has been swapped out once with no change. I think that leaves the tower or other nearby metal structures as the prime suspects. You didn't give a rundown of the station equipment, so some this may or may not be applicable. When change from the dummy load, either at the near end of far end, to a real antenna, you're changing the load impedance. What you may be experiencing is an increase in spurioius products from the transmitter which will manifest as desense at the receiver. Have you looked at the transmitter output with a spectrum analyzer during the occasions when you have desense to see if it's getting sloppy? An isolator might be a viable candidate as a band-aid, but the right fix is to cure the problem at the source by repairing or replacing the unstable device... Have you tried other transmitters and/or amplifiers? Do you have Polyphasers or anything other than coax between the duplexer and the antenna? If so, consider it suspect until proven otherwise. Have you tested with the transmitter off? Wondering if there's a possibility there is something else coming down the hose that is causing recever degradation, such as a nearby transmitter that's noisy or spurious. Are you using a preamp? If so, what do you have ahead of it for filtering, and/or have you tested without the preamp? Have you tried an antenna installed at a different height on the tower than the current antenna to see if anything changes? Do you have ground kits on the feedline going up the tower, and if so, are they properly attached/bonded, particularly avoiding any dissimilar metal contact? The tower is 100 feet of Rohn 25G guyed with 3/16 EHS. I have tried more than once to bond the sections of tower with straps across the leg joints, and similarly where guys attach to the tower and/or turnbuckles etc. at ground level. These efforts did not help and seemed to actually make matters worse. By the way, the guy ends use Big Grips, not clamps. Was that a mistake for a repeater tower? Big Grips (usucally called preforms) are generally OK, many a tower much bigger than a 25G uses them. They need to be properly protected to avoid coming un-twisted due to ice sliding down the guy wire. Pull-out strength, if installed properly, is as good as conventional mechanical clamps. To help determine if you have a mechanical problem that is being manifested as noise when excited by the high RF field of the transmitter, try rapping on the tower at the base and at the guy anchors with something (like a crescent wrench). The goal isn't to shake the tower, but instead to induce a significant mechanical vibration. See if the noise increases (either audibily or visibly on the spectrum analyzer) with the vibration, and dampens out as the vibration decays. I do have another newly erected 100 foot tower close by. It could be part of the problem. However, I was having this problem long before that tower went up so I'm still pointing fingers at my own stuff. What else is nearby? Buildings, utility lines, etc.? Here's one for ya... this problem first reared it ugly head right after I put up the tower. For years prior to that I had run the antenna on a rusty metal mast with loose fitting joints without ever a hint of trouble!!! If the antenna was top-mounted on the rusty mast, but is now side-mounted on the new tower, that could explain a lot of the difference. The top-mounted antenna will couple much less energy to the supporting structure than would a side-mounted antenna. --- Jeff WN3A
[Repeater-Builder] OT:Ham Antenna Mistaken for Bomb
Ya gotta watch out for those amateur radio operators. http://www.radioworld.com/article/76094 Also, there's a link to the ARRL's web site about Laura Smith who took over for Riley Hollingsworth and other interesting articles concerning locating power line noises, and even a story about the Captain Midnight / HBO saga. Pretty interesting stuff to read. 73, Don, KD9PT
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Great questions, Jeff. Thanks! Answers below... Have you looked at the transmitter output with a spectrum analyzer during the occasions when you have desense to see if it's getting sloppy? No. I wanted to but I'm very isolated up here and do not have access to one. Have you tried other transmitters and/or amplifiers? Several PAs have been tried. Solid state and tube, GE and Motorola. No change with any of them. There is very little change in desense when I vary the power level unless I drop the power very low, like less than a watt. Then it goes away like somebody threw a switch. The exciter has not been swapped out for a different type. However I have tried 4 of the same type exciter (PLL variety Mastr II), no change. Another thing I tried was essentially a homebrew Z match between the PA and duplexer, no change. Do you have Polyphasers or anything other than coax between the duplexer and the antenna? I know I should have them, but I don't. Have you tested with the transmitter off? Yes, many, many times. It never happens with the transmitter off. I'm very confident about that. Are you using a preamp? If so, what do you have ahead of it for filtering, and/or have you tested without the preamp? Yes I use a preamp. DB4062 duplexer and two DB4002B 11 pass cavities, pass cavity loops set for 1 dB insertion loss each cavity. I tried tightening it up to 3 dB per cavity, no help there. The problem is still there without the preamp. Have you tried an antenna installed at a different height on the tower than the current antenna to see if anything changes? Yes, and it does change but does not go away. If I take the antenna off the tower and put it 20 to 30 feet away from the tower, the problem is drastically reduced but not completely gone. I can't quantify changes with absolute numbers... only generalizations... since the problem is intermittent and varies greatly even when I'm not changing anything. Do you have ground kits on the feedline going up the tower, and if so, are they properly attached/bonded, particularly avoiding any dissimilar metal contact? Another thing I should have but don't. Big Grips (usucally called preforms) are generally OK, many a tower much bigger than a 25G uses them. They need to be properly protected to avoid coming un-twisted due to ice sliding down the guy wire. Pull-out strength, if installed properly, is as good as conventional mechanical clamps. Preforms, right. I was wondering about the integrity of RF contact between the preform and the EHS wire since the preforms are coated with whatever that stuff is on the inside. To help determine if you have a mechanical problem that is being manifested as noise when excited by the high RF field of the transmitter, try rapping on the tower at the base and at the guy anchors with something (like a crescent wrench). The goal isn't to shake the tower, but instead to induce a significant mechanical vibration. See if the noise increases (either audibily or visibly on the spectrum analyzer) with the vibration, and dampens out as the vibration decays. I missed that test! I have tried shaking the tower, which seems to have no consistent affect. I will try inducing vibration by rapping it with a wrench. What else is nearby? Buildings, utility lines, etc.? A couple small wood buildings, including my own. Mine was the only one there when this problem started. I have been over my internal wiring and every piece of metal under my control, no suspected items found. There is a 13.2 kV rural distribution power line and phone line running past the site about 70 feet from my tower, plus power drops to my building and another nearby. My antenna was closer to the utility lines when it was on the mast and was not having problems. If the antenna was top-mounted on the rusty mast, but is now side-mounted on the new tower, that could explain a lot of the difference. The top-mounted antenna will couple much less energy to the supporting structure than would a side-mounted antenna. Good point. I have tried top and side mounting on the tower. Top mounting helps, but not nearly enough. Paul
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
What type of power supply is in your system? Do you have a back up battery? If so what type of charger is on it? Any other repeater systems in close proximity?
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Are you using a preamp? If so, what do you have ahead of it for filtering, and/or have you tested without the preamp? Yes I use a preamp. DB4062 duplexer and two DB4002B 11 pass cavities, pass cavity loops set for 1 dB insertion loss each cavity. I tried tightening it up to 3 dB per cavity, no help there. The problem is still there without the preamp. Have you tried putting one or more pass cavities on the transmitter? It's more of a longshot, but if there's something strong coming back down your feedline it could be getting to your PA resulting in intermod. The problem would come and go with the strong signal obviously, and only when your Tx was keyed. Preforms, right. I was wondering about the integrity of RF contact between the preform and the EHS wire since the preforms are coated with whatever that stuff is on the inside. Yeah, they're coated with that semi-clear plasticy stuff usually. I wouldn't consider that to be a high risk factor, but hard to say. How close is the nearest guy wire attachment point on the tower to your antenna? Is your antenna currently side-mounted or top-mounted? If side-mounted, at what height? What kind of mounting brackets/clamps for the antenna? What else is on the tower? How are the feedlines attached to the tower? Does the noise get any better or worse when it's raining out? How are the guy wires attached to the tower (looped around a leg, with or without thimbles, torque triangle/arms, etc.)? I'm guessing not, but is the tower lit? When you changed out antennas and heliax, I presume you replaced any topside jumpers as well? Where is your equipment with respect to the tower (i.e. how close to the base)? And how well-shielded is the equipment (enclosed metal cabinet hopefully), and are you taking the usual precautions as far as cabling into, and within, the cabinet to keep RF out? --- Jeff
[Repeater-Builder] SIMULCAST VOTING SYSTEMS dealer wanted pls.
Hello All, Is there any SIMULCAST dealer out there.? pls contact me off list . regards savy.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Oh, it's difficult to say how close close really is, but keep it in mind if you run out of other fixes. The only test is to remove the suspect antenna from the site, and that may not be easy. Disconnecting it or grounding it will not help you diagnose. Also, I'll ask the dreaded question... You are not using any foil/braid coax (LMR-400, 9913, etc.) for any jumpers are you? If, so, replace it before you do anything else. Or is there some near your antenna for some other purpose? Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Paul N1BUG paul_n1...@myfairpoint.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower Thanks Chuck. What would you consider nearby? There is one fiberglass antenna on a tower 60 feet away. It was new when it went up 2 years ago, but my problem existed before that tower/antenna went up. Aside from that the nearest other fiberglass antenna (or antenna of any kind) is 250 feet away. Paul Chuck Kelsey wrote: Suspect any other nearby fiberglass antenna in your search. Chuck WB2EDV
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Hello Paul, Worked you a few times many moons ago. I would agree with Jeff with tapping and slightly causing movement with the repeater up with a weak signal. I have before experiened both an antenna (stationmaster) with internal broken joint which caused severe noise and desense but also dependent on movement in the structure. Also have seen with a 100ft. guyed 3/36 town like yours having the same issue. I tried grounding bonding all joints on guys to tower and between tower sections to no avail. Also tried isolating the preforms from tower and bottom supports with no change. I decided that the 3/16 stranded was the generation source. We changed the guys to Phillystran and never had another issue. Good luck with isolating the problem. Randy --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Paul N1BUG paul_n1...@... wrote: OK guys... I thought I could figure this out on my own, but I was wrong. I could use some wisdom from the group! I have been chasing a stubborn case of duplex noise for a long time without success. The 2 meter repeater will run clean all day at 100 watts (or any lower power level) into a quality RF load placed on the antenna port of the duplexer. It will run clean all day with the same load placed at the antenna end of the feedline. With the antenna connected it will SOMETIMES run clean. At other times we get the crackling and popping of duplex noise. And at times we get increased noise floor (I can see it on the receiver limiter current but it has no specific sound, it's just like the normal receiver noise floor came up 20 to 30 dB!) None of this happens when it is run into the RF load. It is only when running into the antenna, and then only sometimes. The steady high noise floor, when present, happens only when my transmitter is up. It happens even if no other transmitters on the hill are up. It will occasionally go for days or even weeks without a glitch, then be essentially unusable for hours or days. The crackling does seem to be worse in windy weather. The steady noise does not seem to be better or worse in any kind of weather, but occurs completely at random as far as I can tell. Three different antennas (all DB or Sinclair, two of them NEW) have been tried with no significant change. The feedline (Andrew LDF5-50A) has been swapped out once with no change. I think that leaves the tower or other nearby metal structures as the prime suspects. The tower is 100 feet of Rohn 25G guyed with 3/16 EHS. I have tried more than once to bond the sections of tower with straps across the leg joints, and similarly where guys attach to the tower and/or turnbuckles etc. at ground level. These efforts did not help and seemed to actually make matters worse. By the way, the guy ends use Big Grips, not clamps. Was that a mistake for a repeater tower? I am looking for advice. If anyone has solved noise problems in a similar tower, I would very much like to know specifically what materials you used and how you installed them that worked for you! I do have another newly erected 100 foot tower close by. It could be part of the problem. However, I was having this problem long before that tower went up so I'm still pointing fingers at my own stuff. A 440 repeater on the same tower does not have any problems. Neither repeater seems to be affected by the other's transmitter. It is only the 2 meter repeater killing itself. Both my tower structure and the new adjacent tower structure are hot with RF from my 2 meter transmitter, as evidenced by horrible noise when something like a screwdriver shaft is lightly rubbed against the towers or guys. I do not find any other metal structures in the vicinity that react that way. There is NO loose hardware in my system. I've been over it time and time again. There is NO visible rust anywhere. Any suggestions before I pull the rest of my rapidly thinning hair out? Here's one for ya... this problem first reared it ugly head right after I put up the tower. For years prior to that I had run the antenna on a rusty metal mast with loose fitting joints without ever a hint of trouble!!! Paul N1BUG 147.105 and 444.950
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Have you tried putting one or more pass cavities on the transmitter? It's more of a longshot, but if there's something strong coming back down your feedline it could be getting to your PA resulting in intermod. The problem would come and go with the strong signal obviously, and only when your Tx was keyed. I have tried putting one of the 11 pass cavities on the transmitter. No change. There is a fairly low traffic APRS digipeater (144.39) on a tower 250 feet away but my noise problem does not come in packet-length bursts. It was also down for a while and I still had the problem. The only other VHF transmitter is 158.x on the tower that is only 60 feet away. However I have never yet found that transmitter to be up when my problem was occurring. It sees VERY little use. The only other sources of RF are cell towers several hundred feet away. Yeah, they're coated with that semi-clear plasticy stuff usually. I wouldn't consider that to be a high risk factor, but hard to say. How close is the nearest guy wire attachment point on the tower to your antenna? Close, just a couple feet below the antenna at the present time. In general, moving the antenna closer to a set of guys does seem to make the problem worse. If I could somehow get to a point where I believe it's the guys, I would seriously consider replacing them with Phillystran, leaving a few feet of EHS at the anchor end. Is your antenna currently side-mounted or top-mounted? If side-mounted, at what height? Half and half at the moment, actually... the 20 foot stick is mounted on side arms at the 90 foot level of a 100 foot tower. Moving it to top mount does seem to decrease the desense by some 5 to 10 dB (hard to quantify due to variability) but I still have 20 to 30+ dB desense at times. When side mounted, spacing from the tower also makes some difference (wider spacing = less desense) but again not enough to be truly helpful. What kind of mounting brackets/clamps for the antenna? Sinclair heavy galvanized mounting clamps on the antenna, side support arms are heavy galvanized angle stock. Galvanized U bolts to tower legs. Other mounting arrangements have been tried, including the use of insulating material for side arms. Some change (less desense with the insulated mount) but still not enough to be really helpful. What else is on the tower? The only things on the tower are my 147.105 and 444.950 antennas. I tried completely removing the 440 antenna and feedline from the tower, but nothing changed. How are the feedlines attached to the tower? They are both LDF5-50A up the inside of the tower (that was fun), attached by many heavy duty nylon cable ties. Does the noise get any better or worse when it's raining out? There *seems* to be some tendency toward the noise being worse during the first hour or so of a rain or snow event. But it is not always so. The noise is sometimes there when it is raining, but not always. It sometimes there when it is dry, but not always. How are the guy wires attached to the tower (looped around a leg, with or without thimbles, torque triangle/arms, etc.)? The preforms are looped around a leg and through the Z braces of the tower. No thimbles at that end, there are some where the guys attach to the turnbuckles. I'm guessing not, but is the tower lit? It is not. When you changed out antennas and heliax, I presume you replaced any topside jumpers as well? Topside jumper and the jumper between duplexer and feedline were replaced. Where is your equipment with respect to the tower (i.e. how close to the base)? About 30 feet away. And how well-shielded is the equipment (enclosed metal cabinet hopefully), and are you taking the usual precautions as far as cabling into, and within, the cabinet to keep RF out? Hmm. The cabinet (rack) is not completely enclosed. Each piece of equipment is in a shielded enclosure. There are feedthrough capacitors and chokes/beads on every non-RF lead entry point to a piece of equipment. However, the 13.6V interconnecting cables and 117VAC power cords are not shielded. They do have the filtering wherever they enter equipment. Paul
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Hi Randy, I remember working you on 2 meters. That is very interesting. I tried bonding all the joints. If anything it actually seemed to make things worse!? I have been seriously thinking about Phillystran. It's a big expense not knowing for sure where the problem lies, but the only way to find out may be to try it and see! Paul wb8art wrote: Hello Paul, Worked you a few times many moons ago. I would agree with Jeff with tapping and slightly causing movement with the repeater up with a weak signal. I have before experiened both an antenna (stationmaster) with internal broken joint which caused severe noise and desense but also dependent on movement in the structure. Also have seen with a 100ft. guyed 3/36 town like yours having the same issue. I tried grounding bonding all joints on guys to tower and between tower sections to no avail. Also tried isolating the preforms from tower and bottom supports with no change. I decided that the 3/16 stranded was the generation source. We changed the guys to Phillystran and never had another issue.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Also, I'll ask the dreaded question... You are not using any foil/braid coax (LMR-400, 9913, etc.) for any jumpers are you? Nope, won't allow the stuff near my repeaters! grin LDF5-50A runs up the tower, RG-214 mil spec double silver shield for all jumpers. Paul
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
What type of power supply is in your system? Do you have a back up battery? If so what type of charger is on it? Any other repeater systems in close proximity? There is a backup battery which is float charged from the 13.8V DC power supply. Presently the supply on duty is a homebrew beast of a linear supply (no switchers). I have tried Astron supplies in place of that, no changes noted. There is one public safety repeater, transmit 158.x on a tower 60 feet away. It was not there when my problem started, nor have I ever found their repeater to be in use when my problem is occurring. Actually I'm hard pressed to find that repeater in use, period. Paul
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Samething here in NJ. the Club put all new Db Antennas On the 100 foot tower. New Feedline. still had the noise...new grounding system. all sections bonded. still Noise. changed the guy cables to Phillystrand. Problem went away --- On Thu, 3/12/09, Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com wrote: From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009, 2:59 PM Oh, it's difficult to say how close close really is, but keep it in mind if you run out of other fixes. The only test is to remove the suspect antenna from the site, and that may not be easy. Disconnecting it or grounding it will not help you diagnose. Also, I'll ask the dreaded question... You are not using any foil/braid coax (LMR-400, 9913, etc.) for any jumpers are you? If, so, replace it before you do anything else. Or is there some near your antenna for some other purpose? Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Paul N1BUG paul_n1...@myfairpoint.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower Thanks Chuck. What would you consider nearby? There is one fiberglass antenna on a tower 60 feet away. It was new when it went up 2 years ago, but my problem existed before that tower/antenna went up. Aside from that the nearest other fiberglass antenna (or antenna of any kind) is 250 feet away. Paul Chuck Kelsey wrote: Suspect any other nearby fiberglass antenna in your search. Chuck WB2EDV Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Were they starting to show rust? Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: neal Newman cozy...@yahoo.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower Samething here in NJ. the Club put all new Db Antennas On the 100 foot tower. New Feedline. still had the noise...new grounding system. all sections bonded. still Noise. changed the guy cables to Phillystrand. Problem went away
[Repeater-Builder] WTB: Need manual for old Moto
Hi, all, I am restoring an old Moto L43GGB desktop base. (OK, stop laughing.) So, I would like to find a manual, if someone has one collecting dust in an old box and would wish to sell it. Contact me direct at (my call) (at) verizon (dot) net. Thanks Dennis Bridgeman KCØFWN Bridgeman Communications 202 Seventh Street Carmi, IL 62821 http://bridgemancommunications.com
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Help with N1274A VHF amplifier please
Thanks for the info Eric. I first learned of these amps from the Repeater-Builder genesis page. I am going to use it with my Genesis convertacom. I never knew they were used as far back as the MX300 and MT500 radios. That is interesting. Again, thanks for the info. I appreciate the model number of the manaul. Maybe I can find one of those. (you don't happen to have one do you???) Another gentleman has offered me a schematic, so I am at least heading in the right direction. You wouldn't happen to know the procedure for tuning the amp would you? I do have a watt/swr meter but nothing fancier than that. Albert --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Eric Lemmon wb6...@... wrote: Albert, Yes, you must tune the amplifier for the narrow range of frequencies that you will be using. The N1274A amplifier was used with MT500 and MX300 Converta-Com Consoles to boost the output of the Handie-Talkie in mobile service. The unit has a sensor to detect the transmit signal and switch the amplifier into the circuit, The manual which covers this specific amplifier is 6881020C90- which, unfortunately, is NLA from Motorola Parts. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Albert Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:04 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Help with N1274A VHF amplifier please I have very cheaply acquired a Motorola N1274A amplifier and would like to use it on 2 meters. My first question, is, since this amplifier was originally designed for 150-174MHz do I need to do any retuning. I assume the answer would be yes. On the board, on the far left and the far right I see two components that appear to be tuning capacitors. They are marked Johanson 9612. (Looking them up on the net confirmed they were tuning caps) Are these what I need to adjust? If so, what is the procedure? Tune for max power? Min SWR? Any assistance would be appreciated. Also, what tool is used for this? I kind of looks like a tiny hex head, but I haven't looked at it under a magnifier yet. Secondly, I was wondering if anyone has a schematic for the amplifier. I looked on the net but turned up nothing. There is one component inside the amplifier that appears what used to be a capacitor. It obviously suffered a catastrophic failure and the magic smoke came out quite rapidly. It is located on the board next to a large 1 ohm power resistor. I obviously need to replace this component and could possibly need to replace others. Again, any schematic or parts list info anyone could share with me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Albert
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Im having the same issue with my repeater on a 100 ft tower guyed with 3/16 In a message dated 3/12/2009 3:39:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, paul_n1...@myfairpoint.net writes: Hi Randy, I remember working you on 2 meters. That is very interesting. I tried bonding all the joints. If anything it actually seemed to make things worse!? I have been seriously thinking about Phillystran. It's a big expense not knowing for sure where the problem lies, but the only way to find out may be to try it and see! Paul wb8art wrote: Hello Paul, Worked you a few times many moons ago. I would agree with Jeff with tapping and slightly causing movement with the repeater up with a weak signal. I have before experiened both an antenna (stationmaster) with internal broken joint which caused severe noise and desense but also dependent on movement in the structure. Also have seen with a 100ft. guyed 3/36 town like yours having the same issue. I tried grounding bonding all joints on guys to tower and between tower sections to no avail. Also tried isolating the preforms from tower and bottom supports with no change. I decided that the 3/16 stranded was the generation source. We changed the guys to Phillystran and never had another issue. **Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agenciesncid=emlcntusyelp0005)
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Sorry, I have the same problem with my repeater on a 100 foot tower guyed with 3/16 cable. It seems when the temp drops below 60 F I get a squeal in the RX side of my repeater. I can shake the tower when its doing it and it will go away for a few minutes. We went up and grounded the antenna and bracket to the tower. I thought we were getting RX noise from a bad connection that would get worse when the temp dropped due to the metal shrinking. Still no luck fixing it. I'm not sure what to do now. 73, KD5UZA In a message dated 3/12/2009 3:39:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, paul_n1...@myfairpoint.net writes: Hi Randy, I remember working you on 2 meters. That is very interesting. I tried bonding all the joints. If anything it actually seemed to make things worse!? I have been seriously thinking about Phillystran. It's a big expense not knowing for sure where the problem lies, but the only way to find out may be to try it and see! Paul wb8art wrote: Hello Paul, Worked you a few times many moons ago. I would agree with Jeff with tapping and slightly causing movement with the repeater up with a weak signal. I have before experiened both an antenna (stationmaster) with internal broken joint which caused severe noise and desense but also dependent on movement in the structure. Also have seen with a 100ft. guyed 3/36 town like yours having the same issue. I tried grounding bonding all joints on guys to tower and between tower sections to no avail. Also tried isolating the preforms from tower and bottom supports with no change. I decided that the 3/16 stranded was the generation source. We changed the guys to Phillystran and never had another issue. **Need a job? Find employment help in your area. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agenciesncid=emlcntusyelp0005)
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
I have far less experience with this sort of thing than most anyone here but IMHO towers that are guyed SHOULD have insulators breaking up the guy wires, as close to the tower as possible, and at least one per guy wire. The guy wires that were installed on the tower where my repeater is installed MOVE ever so slightly on windy days. When the wires move you get static from the metal on metal surfaces. We broke the wires with JUST ONE insulator per leg and the noise we were getting on windy days disappeared. -MIke From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hankjr...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:59 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower Sorry, I have the same problem with my repeater on a 100 foot tower guyed with 3/16 cable. It seems when the temp drops below 60 F I get a squeal in the RX side of my repeater. I can shake the tower when its doing it and it will go away for a few minutes. We went up and grounded the antenna and bracket to the tower. I thought we were getting RX noise from a bad connection that would get worse when the temp dropped due to the metal shrinking. Still no luck fixing it. I'm not sure what to do now. 73, KD5UZA In a message dated 3/12/2009 3:39:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, paul_n1...@myfairpoint.net writes: Hi Randy, I remember working you on 2 meters. That is very interesting. I tried bonding all the joints. If anything it actually seemed to make things worse!? I have been seriously thinking about Phillystran. It's a big expense not knowing for sure where the problem lies, but the only way to find out may be to try it and see! Paul wb8art wrote: Hello Paul, Worked you a few times many moons ago. I would agree with Jeff with tapping and slightly causing movement with the repeater up with a weak signal. I have before experiened both an antenna (stationmaster) with internal broken joint which caused severe noise and desense but also dependent on movement in the structure. Also have seen with a 100ft. guyed 3/36 town like yours having the same issue. I tried grounding bonding all joints on guys to tower and between tower sections to no avail. Also tried isolating the preforms from tower and bottom supports with no change. I decided that the 3/16 stranded was the generation source. We changed the guys to Phillystran and never had another issue. _ Need a job? Find http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agenciesncid=emlcntusye lp0005 employment help in your area. __ NOD32 3931 (20090312) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
[Repeater-Builder] zetron
Anyone have a pdf for a Zetron Model 35 - unit i need book to set up and program. for a 6mtr repeater in the uk gb3ct thanks from chris
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
We went the other way and earthed all guy wires with short wires connected back to the tower and have had no problems with static in windy weather Thank You, Ian Wells, Kerinvale Comaudio, 361 Camboon Road.Biloela.4715 Phone 0749922574 or 0409159932 www.kerinvalecomaudio.com.au ---Original Message--- From: Michael Ryan Date: 03/13/09 08:13:06 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower I have far less experience with this sort of thing than most anyone here but IMHO towers that are guyed SHOULD have insulators breaking up the guy wires, as close to the tower as possible, and at least one per guy wire. The guy wires that were installed on the tower where my repeater is installed MOVE ever so slightly on windy days. When the wires move you get static from the metal on metal surfaces. We broke the wires with JUST ONE insulator per leg and the noise we were getting on windy days disappeared. -MIke From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups com] On Behalf Of hankjr...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:59 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower Sorry, I have the same problem with my repeater on a 100 foot tower guyed with 3/16 cable. It seems when the temp drops below 60 F I get a squeal in the RX side of my repeater. I can shake the tower when its doing it and it will go away for a few minutes. We went up and grounded the antenna and bracket to the tower. I thought we were getting RX noise from a bad connection that would get worse when the temp dropped due to the metal shrinking. Still no luck fixing it. I'm not sure what to do now. 73, KD5UZA In a message dated 3/12/2009 3:39:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, paul_n1...@myfairpoint.net writes: Hi Randy, I remember working you on 2 meters. That is very interesting. I tried bonding all the joints. If anything it actually seemed to make things worse!? I have been seriously thinking about Phillystran. It's a big expense not knowing for sure where the problem lies, but the only way to find out may be to try it and see! Paul wb8art wrote: Hello Paul, Worked you a few times many moons ago. I would agree with Jeff with tapping and slightly causing movement with the repeater up with a weak signal. I have before experiened both an antenna (stationmaster) with internal broken joint which caused severe noise and desense but also dependent on movement in the structure. Also have seen with a 100ft. guyed 3/36 town like yours having the same issue. I tried grounding bonding all joints on guys to tower and between tower sections to no avail. Also tried isolating the preforms from tower and bottom supports with no change. I decided that the 3/16 stranded was the generation source. We changed the guys to Phillystran and never had another issue. Need a job? Find employment help in your area. __ NOD32 3931 (20090312) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
[Repeater-Builder] Re: OT:Ham Antenna Mistaken for Bomb
Don Kupferschmidt d...@... wrote: Ya gotta watch out for those amateur radio operators. http://www.radioworld.com/article/76094 Video at: http://www.kptm.com/Global/story.asp?S=9911221nav=menu606_2#
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
I suspect I'm having similar issues on my tower - Nello 25N, 150' tall, 3/16 EHS, big grips grounding at tower base - guywires are bonded together and grounded to a single pole at each guy point). Do you mean connecting the guywires back to the tower itself, or connecting the towerbase to the guywire points (ie - burying wire)? Thanks! JS --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, kerinvale kerin...@... wrote: We went the other way and earthed all guy wires with short wires connected back to the tower and have had no problems with static in windy weather Thank You, Ian Wells, Kerinvale Comaudio, 361 Camboon Road.Biloela.4715 Phone 0749922574 or 0409159932 www.kerinvalecomaudio.com.au
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
This fixes the RF problem, but creates a new one. the guy anchors can now explode in a direct lightning strike if your shorting wires don't give up first. if the lightning thinks the path down the guy wire looks better than others. Nate WY0X From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kerinvale Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:28 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
You also have to be careful when generalizing - Comcast here locally is actually the old ATT Broadband network, upgraded many times by Comcast after they purchased it. But the base technologies installed in each Comcast service area are NOT the same. (I can tell for sure that Comcast here locally is using Cisco gear - you can watch the speed throttling behavior and it matches every Cisco QoS box I've ever used. overshoots at first, and then falls back. Comcast around here recently started offering SpeedBoost where they're allowing a higher burst of speed for a set period of time PER CONNECTION (TCP, UDP, whatever you are using) and then that connection - just that one - gets throttled. I've tested this on my Comcast line pretty heavily just to know the expected behavior. I also avoid the public speed test sites and use a private server I KNOW is on more than a DS-3 worth of bandwidth for testing purposes.) So. when I see Comcast is great or Comcast sucks on different online message boards, I always take that with a grain of salt. It's just not the same gear everywhere. Nate WY0X From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Plack Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 9:03 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP Kevin, thanks for your insight. Comcast must cap speeds below what it advertises intentionally, because even distant speed test servers would run higher speeds than what I could get to fellow Comcast users in the same part of town.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Help with N1274A VHF amplifier please
Albert, I don't have the manual for that unit, but I can state with some confidence that you can terminate the output with a wattmeter and feed the input with one or two watts from a handheld at the desired frequency, and tune for maximum output. If the power output does not pass through a peak as you tune the capacitors, you may need to tweak some coils or add some capacitors to get the amp to work efficiently at 2m. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Albert Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 2:50 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Help with N1274A VHF amplifier please Thanks for the info Eric. I first learned of these amps from the Repeater-Builder genesis page. I am going to use it with my Genesis convertacom. I never knew they were used as far back as the MX300 and MT500 radios. That is interesting. Again, thanks for the info. I appreciate the model number of the manaul. Maybe I can find one of those. (you don't happen to have one do you???) Another gentleman has offered me a schematic, so I am at least heading in the right direction. You wouldn't happen to know the procedure for tuning the amp would you? I do have a watt/swr meter but nothing fancier than that. Albert --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com , Eric Lemmon wb6...@... wrote: Albert, Yes, you must tune the amplifier for the narrow range of frequencies that you will be using. The N1274A amplifier was used with MT500 and MX300 Converta-Com Consoles to boost the output of the Handie-Talkie in mobile service. The unit has a sensor to detect the transmit signal and switch the amplifier into the circuit, The manual which covers this specific amplifier is 6881020C90- which, unfortunately, is NLA from Motorola Parts. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Albert Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:04 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Help with N1274A VHF amplifier please I have very cheaply acquired a Motorola N1274A amplifier and would like to use it on 2 meters. My first question, is, since this amplifier was originally designed for 150-174MHz do I need to do any retuning. I assume the answer would be yes. On the board, on the far left and the far right I see two components that appear to be tuning capacitors. They are marked Johanson 9612. (Looking them up on the net confirmed they were tuning caps) Are these what I need to adjust? If so, what is the procedure? Tune for max power? Min SWR? Any assistance would be appreciated. Also, what tool is used for this? I kind of looks like a tiny hex head, but I haven't looked at it under a magnifier yet. Secondly, I was wondering if anyone has a schematic for the amplifier. I looked on the net but turned up nothing. There is one component inside the amplifier that appears what used to be a capacitor. It obviously suffered a catastrophic failure and the magic smoke came out quite rapidly. It is located on the board next to a large 1 ohm power resistor. I obviously need to replace this component and could possibly need to replace others. Again, any schematic or parts list info anyone could share with me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Albert
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
I've been looking at phillystran for many years now, but never implemented it. I've used 3/16 EHS with associated hardware. I too, have issues with noise. Any others out there who have, and can give any ideas on how to use it for guying a tower? Hardware used, hints and kinks? Or are there docs or web sites that can be referred to? TIA, Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Nate Duehr To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 7:18 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower This fixes the RF problem, but creates a new one. the guy anchors can now explode in a direct lightning strike if your shorting wires don't give up first. if the lightning thinks the path down the guy wire looks better than others. Nate WY0X From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kerinvale Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:28 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
There's other things to look at... have you looked at your Comcast router (in the admin menus) and seen what the received signal/noise ratio is at your location, and what upstream power it's having to use to reach them? I had a problem when I first set up the Comcast line into the house where the house wiring was old RG-6 crap that leaked like a sieve. An upgrade to the cable going to the router, and all was well. (I successfully use Vonage over it all the time.) The modem was screaming at somewhere around +50dBm to talk back to the head end. Now it's far more into the regular range at +34 or so. (Yep, the cable in the house was THAT bad.) However... and this is another gotcha... my circuit from Comcast isn't a residential account. It's a small business account, complete with a public static IP range. ($) Whether or not they've got their you-know-what together enough to treat QoS differently on my circuit versus everyone else in the 'hood... I don't know. They were utterly confused when I wanted commercial service at a residential address, which led to there being two copies of my address in their lookup database for Is service available in your area... one's marked SMALL BIZ... cracks me up. Nate WY0X -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Naruta AA8K Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:51 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP There seems to be adequate bandwidth, as I can load my cable connection with additional downloads and it has no effect on the level of packet loss and delay. The garble is at a constant level, whether it is at 8 PM or 5 AM.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
I've had NO trouble at all passing VoIP through Canopy. You might want to investigate ways to bring your links in over the Canopy/IP system at the site, Mark. Two of our repeater sites have EchoIRLP nodes, serviced off of Canopy and/or Trango Wireless gear. Works fine. No serious latency issues when built right. Also, there ARE Cisco and other routers capable of giving you EM circuits over IP, if that's the route you're planning to go down the road anyway... the Cisco telco routers will do it, and it's the basis of their special ROIP (Radio over IP) code loads, that ... well, if you can find 'em they look nice... features for delay of PTT, adjustable audio delay after PTT, etc... the router then understands that you're hooking it to a radio... but EM is in all the basic VOIP versions of IOS. The Cisco cards and routers are not real cheap though. Nate WY0X -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 7:01 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP Thanks Nate. I'm not running a node or anything as of yet... More like researching my options for linking and so forth for the future. Right now, I'm trying to bring two remote RX sites to a comparator for a three-RX site system. My problem is, I have been waiting nearly TWO YEARS for the county to get their microwave backbone online - so I can have two E+M lines for my remote sites. (The county is gracious enough to give me space at their tower AND provide the repeater equipment, so beggars can't be choosers...) The problem is nobody at the county seems to know how to program the MainStreet equipment that is interfaced into their RF microwave. Rather than pull more of my hair out, I am investigating other avenues... and I know that T-1 lines are cost prohibitive. (Plus, there is no Telco service to the tower site.) There is, however, Internet service via a Canopy system... I'm hoping a friend I have can program the MainStreet ends for me, but getting him away from his employer long enough to do this is my latest problem to resolve... Ah, repeaters. sigh Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nate Duehr Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:45 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP I've done IRLP over a couple of different types of satellite connections (and as an official tech support volunteer, I must add that IRLP doesn't recommend this). It works. Latency never really seemed to be all that bad. We listened to it, and yeah... our voice into the rig was ahead of the other side coming out on a land-line based node, but it was possible to communicate just fine. The bigger problem seems to be packet loss. Sometimes words would get dropped, even with IRLP's relatively new buffers that were put in place not too long back (relatively... I've been doing IRLP now for almost 10 years?). But in-between those dropouts, everything's fine. Switching to a lower CODEC for the node to node connection, (GSM, roughly 12 Kb/S) or using a GSM channel on a Reflector if multiple nodes are participating in some event, helps sometimes. I could get the owner of one of these systems to call you on your local IRLP node, if you want to hear it. He could also describe who's satellite service he's using. Some node owners on the IRLP mailing list a while back reported good luck with WildBlue, haven't heard that much good about StarBand or DirectTV's offering... and of course, Hughes dedicated service ($$$) also works fine. This is all kinda water under the bridge to me -- I'm more interested in finding out if Icom's D-STAR Gateways can successfully operate (they're much more latency sensitive than IRLP or anything that's just an audio stream) on a satellite link. Don't have all the stuff here I'd need to test it and find out, though! To buy an extra repeater, controller, and gateway just for a test isn't in the cards. (GRIN) Nate WY0X -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:56 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP Mike, I'm curious regarding latency issues, especially if using VoIP for connections like IRLP or remote voice links. Did you experience them when on satellite, or was it a non-issue in your experience? And I assume your connections losses while on the bird were due to rain fade or similar??? Mark - N9WYS Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
For those that trust these public things and don't think the ISP's know we're using them (and thus, open their connections to JUST these places, wide-open.) www.speedtest.net is a cool one that works well. Nate From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Kupferschmidt Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:48 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP For those who need to measure their upload / download speed of their ISP, here are a couple of useful links to measure it: http://reviews.cnet.com/internet-speed-test/ http://www.speakeasy.net/speedtest/ I like the 2nd one a lot better. For those you haven't experienced this yet, have fun ! 73, Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Paul Plack mailto:pl...@xmission.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP Your experience with Comcast VoIP may vary widely, depending on your location and time of day. In Oregon, I had Comcast VoIP, which I was assured was backed up for power outages. Sure enough, power went out in a windstorm, and the little UPS included with my modem kept it running, but the network itself was down. When the power came back on, so did the network. My neighbors with Verizon POTS service never lost it. Here in Utah, I work out of a home office, and was experiencing routine outages of both VoIP and internet, usually lasting 20-30 minutes, between midnight and 1am, when I needed both for work. This would happen two or three times a week. It was clearly some kind of routine maintenance, but the Comcast customer service reps (when I reached them on my cellphone) had nothing more useful than their scripts, and of course, Have you rebooted your router? Finally, they went down for 30 hours, including most of two business days, this time including phone, internet and TV. They were so arrogant about it when I called that I cancelled all three. I got DTV converter boxes and do without cable TV, got a copper-pair-based landline phone, and my new fiber-optic internet service rocks - it actually delivers its advertised speeds. Comcast never came close to achieving its ad claims. Comcast internet access is a flaky toy, in my experience. The company has a complete lack of uptime ethic. If you need to be able to count on your repeater, don't link sites through Comcast. If Comcast is intentionally sabotaging Vonage calls made using its system, it would be completely consistent with my expectations. 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: JOHN MACKEY mailto:jmac...@usa.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP I am a Comcast VOIP customer, the service works good. Comcast is a sleezy company, and I have had experiences with their IP blocking and/or packet interruptions.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP
Nate, If they have their feces integrated enough to treat commercial customers better, that only proves they're clueless about branding. I considered upgrading to their commercial-grade products, but saw little reason to believe that it would improve reliability or customer service. I wonder how many other sales they lose because business prospects were alienated first by their customer experience at home. I'm guessing an outage of all three services in my entire neighborhood that lasted 30 hours before the truck showed up, and was fixed 90 seconds after the truck showed up, is not a S/N issue. My current fiber-optic service is considered a residential product, and blows away Comcast's claimed business product speeds. It's also been much more reliable. 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Nate Duehr To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:30 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Split site link via IP There's other things to look at... have you looked at your Comcast router (in the admin menus) and seen what the received signal/noise ratio is at your location, and what upstream power it's having to use to reach them? ... Whether or not they've got their you-know-what together enough to treat QoS differently on my circuit versus everyone else in the 'hood... I don't know.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
--- On Thu, 3/12/09, neal Newman cozy...@yahoo.com wrote: From: neal Newman cozy...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009, 4:55 PM Samething here in NJ. the Club put all new Db Antennas On the 100 foot tower. New Feedline. still had the noise...new grounding system. all sections bonded. still Noise. changed the guy cables to Phillystrand. Problem went away I have a repeater on a 100 ft tower with guys. Found the ends near the ground were wrapped through the anchor holes and had about 2 feet of free ends after the clamping bolts. When the wind would blow the free ends against the guy wires all kind of noise would be generated. Cut the wires so they could not rub against each other and the noise quit.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
The tower is all steel so why wont the lightning hit the entire tower and guy ropes .Wether they are shorted to the tower or not a lightning hit will run through all the setup.I have had a VHF antenna hit with lightning and the tower was a1 ok and the antenna was blowen to pieces .All commercial communication towers here in aus are done with big earthing straps into the ground especially the anchors that are in concrete. Thank You, Ian Wells, Kerinvale Comaudio, 361 Camboon Road.Biloela.4715 Phone 0749922574 or 0409159932 www.kerinvalecomaudio.com.au ---Original Message--- From: Nate Duehr Date: 13/03/2009 10:18:50 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower This fixes the RF problem, but creates a new one the guy anchors can now explode in a direct lightning strike if your shorting wires dont give up first if the lightning thinks the path down the guy wire looks better than others Nate WY0X From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups com] On Behalf Of kerinvale Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:28 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Re: [Repeater-Builder] zetron
At 03:15 PM 03/12/09, you wrote: Anyone have a pdf for a Zetron Model 35 - unit i need book to set up and program. for a 6mtr repeater in the uk gb3ct thanks from chris The brochure and the owners manual are on the repeater-builder web site. We are still looking for the service manual. Mike WA6ILQ co-webmaster at www.repeater-builder.com
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Don, Its pretty straight forward. They have a size equivilent to the 3/16 in mechanical strength, and you should use the Phillystran preforms and timble sleeves. Make sure not going thru trees or other such things that could rub against it. Hope that answers it. But we had them up for 12 or so years with no issues. Randy --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Don Kupferschmidt d...@... wrote: I've been looking at phillystran for many years now, but never implemented it. I've used 3/16 EHS with associated hardware. I too, have issues with noise. Any others out there who have, and can give any ideas on how to use it for guying a tower? Hardware used, hints and kinks? Or are there docs or web sites that can be referred to? TIA, Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Nate Duehr To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 7:18 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower This fixes the RF problem, but creates a new one. the guy anchors can now explode in a direct lightning strike if your shorting wires don't give up first. if the lightning thinks the path down the guy wire looks better than others. Nate WY0X From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kerinvale Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:28 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Quieting duplex noise from a tower
At 3/12/2009 13:19, you wrote: When you changed out antennas and heliax, I presume you replaced any topside jumpers as well? Topside jumper and the jumper between duplexer and feedline were replaced. What kind of jumpers? Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quieting duplex noise from a tower
Hell, if half the MOTOROLA-INSTALLED towers around here were built to their own specs, I'd be impressed. Most of them are using screw in guy anchors with no dead-mans, and are a good dust-up of wind away from falling over. Haven't seen a Moto-tower yet that met R-56 around here! You gotta love Moto... great engineering, poor implementation. :-) Towers are kinda like civil engineering for bridges... everyone knows how to build them properly NOW, but no one went back and rebuilt the old ones... I didn't mean to make it sound like I knew everything there is to know about towers. I don't. I was just pointing out that PERHAPS adding grounds where they weren't before... to fix an *RF* problem... can lead to other problems that might have to be addressed... Like screwing up your carefully (or not so carefully) engineered lightning protection. Okey dokey? Everybody happy now? LOL! Y'all be careful out there and have fun... Nate WY0X On Mar 12, 2009, at 8:25 PM, Glenn Little WB4UIV wrote: If the tower and guys are installed properly, the guy points will not explode. The base of the tower is to be grounded via copper plated ground rods spaced at twice the length of the rods and bonded via exothermic welds 18 inches below grade. The tower base is bonded to this ground ring via exothermic welds. The guy points are grounded via galvanized ground rods. The ground wire is exothermic welded to the rod and grounded to the guy wires via guy clamps. The galvanized rods present a higher resistance ground than the base of the tower reducing the fault current through the guy wires. Reference Motorola R-56 and MIL-HDBK-419. 73 Glenn WB4UIV
