Re: [Vo]:University testing of the E-cat question asked on Rossi blog
On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.comwrote: Rossi faked the 6 Oct data and fooled all the Experts that attended the demo. Some BIG names there. Hey, do me a favor. I agree that thermocouple (T-out) placement is critical and you can get almost any temp you want with incorrect placement. I also agree Rossi should have put the 'couple into the stream. But I don't quite see the trail of goop that tells you where it was originally before the insulation was moved. I hate to make work because this is an almost dead horse, but is there some way to make a clearer graphic about where the thermocouple tip was during the run with respect to the manifold and why? I see goop (probably silicon grease) on the brass fitting in the third image but I'm not sure what it tells us. When this all went down, I mentioned that the way to do away with measurement errors was to use Joule heating to calibrate the entire system used to measure output energy. The believers poopoo'd it but it's still true that such methodology also should have been used by Rossi (and by everyone who promotes LENR).
[Vo]:INFORMAVORE's SUNDAY No 491
My dear Friends, I am still there and I have the privilege to send you a new issue of my newsletter: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/2012/01/informavores-sunday-no-491.html The greatest discovery you can make here is the yearly question at Edge.org, but there are also many other news and documents showing that the 21st Century is NOT ONLY the 12th Century resurrected. Please do not forget to read the previous posting too- a small nice poem written by Georgina. And please let know all your relatives, friends, customers, bosses rivals, competitors and enemies about INFORMAVORE's SUNDAY. Why? To help it to get more readers. Thank you, Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
[Vo]:The Rossi Paradox
Motive is at the root of all rational crime. Without motive, crime is pathological and therefore the inconsequential act of a madman. In this riddle lies the horns of the Rossi paradox. So what is Rossi’s motive for his lies? I think it is hate; seething hate. He hates his detractors with all his heart and soul, they have given him no respect and this capital crime has hardened him to madness under the weight of this mortal slight. This grievous offence grinds on him like an life long itch that can’t be scratched. He has set up his blog to win a fan base of minions, to do his bidding, to worship his pronouncements and utterances, to gain maximum popularity among the unwashed multitude, and in so doing to infuriate his detractors who disrespect and envy him, and who have always disrespected him. He has set up his business to drive those he hates wild with disgust; that is why he says the things he does to impart maximum pain on his enemies. He has carefully built a legion of mindless admirers to do his bidding, to handle his dirty work, to be an army at his defense, to wreak frustration and rage on the forces of humiliation that have hounded him down through the years. His enemies are locked in mortal combat with these converts to the Rossi religion, the true believers who have faith in him. The battle has risen to new levels of absurdity, of irrationality where each word Rossi utters is a weapon of pain and frustration. He weaves a tapestry of distrust to befuddle and confuse where logic cannot be found. The revels in the carnage of the mêlée, in the theater of absurdity, he laughs at the ridiculousness of the dialog amongst the chattering class; a weird game by a man made mad by years of certain contempt that his personality has imposed on him. The money is not important, it is revenge that drives him, it is fury that blinds him, he plays the game of Vendetta he has learn so well in his Italian business education. His pride and ego needs to be assuaged after long years of abuse by the snakes and clowns, the thieves of his ideas, and the idiots that criticize him. So all you warriors in the Rossi wars on both sides of the line; take heart and read his writing like holy writ, stumble through it chapter and verse, fight the good fight for in the battle Rossi wins unconditionally in every ruckus exchange. This crusade serves to only amuse the five star general of incongruity who sits on high at the right hand of chaos, who calls the tune; who pulls the strings, with every word he inspires the fight, till all collapse in the dance of exhaustion and farcicality.
Re: [Vo]:University testing of the E-cat question asked on Rossi blog
On 22/01/2012 6:57 PM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com mailto:shauntaylor...@gmail.com wrote: Rossi faked the 6 Oct data and fooled all the Experts that attended the demo. Some BIG names there. Hey, do me a favor. I agree that thermocouple (T-out) placement is critical and you can get almost any temp you want with incorrect placement. I also agree Rossi should have put the 'couple into the stream. But I don't quite see the trail of goop that tells you where it was originally before the insulation was moved. I hate to make work because this is an almost dead horse, but is there some way to make a clearer graphic about where the thermocouple tip was during the run with respect to the manifold and why? I see goop (probably silicon grease) on the brass fitting in the third image but I'm not sure what it tells us. When this all went down, I mentioned that the way to do away with measurement errors was to use Joule heating to calibrate the entire system used to measure output energy. The believers poopoo'd it but it's still true that such methodology also should have been used by Rossi (and by everyone who promotes LENR). The goop is where the bead of the thermocouple was placed. There is no other reason for anything like that material to be there other than to provide a good heat exchange between the brass fitting and the thermocouple head. Notice in the other 2 images it has been cleaned off the brass fitting. Not a good idea for it to be there too long as some sharp eyed observers may have questioned why that material was on that brass fitting. Can't have the observers asking awkward questions. Why was the bead placed there? Simple. Doing so would deliver a higher than reality Tout temperature, making the delta T look bigger than it really was and making the Ecat appear as if it was generating more energy than is was consuming. Horace got it right and was shouted down. Tells you something about the agendas of some who post here. I like a good mystery and being a natural skeptic, I enjoy a bit of digging. As for this not being relevant, I don't agree. It goes to the heart of a man who made multiple lies about the biggest event in LENR history, had others cover it up and has worked out how to generate good looking but still fraudulent data. Why does Rossi refuse independent testing? Because he knows the Ecat can't deliver what he claims it can. So he lies and creates bogus data. He may think he is buying time to make the home Ecat work as claimed. Maybe that is what he is doing and maybe he will eventually make it work. That does not alter that he has told really big and serious lies about the BBB, has been caught creating fabricated data and has damaged Lewans reputation as being an independent and unbiased reporter. Shaun
Re: [Vo]:The Rossi Paradox
On 22/01/2012 7:51 PM, Axil Axil wrote: This crusade serves to only amuse the five star general of incongruity who sits on high at the right hand of chaos, who calls the tune; who pulls the strings, with every word he inspires the fight, till all collapse in the dance of exhaustion and farcicality. Until he fails to deliver what he has promised. Manufacturing up and running Fall 2012, sales in Winter 2012. There is no way he can get the product UL certified and have the manufacturing plant UL certified. He can't make UL certified home Ecats in a plant that has not been certified by UL to make the home Ecat. All that takes time. LOTS of time. Shaun
RE: [Vo]:University testing of the E-cat question asked on Rossi blog
Not to beleaguer the point, but could you please show us this goo evidence? Simply upload edits to the images that call attention to the relevant goop...a simple red circle would do... Many of us here on Vortex analyzed, even over-analyzed, those photos. I'm not sure what temperature-conductive goop you're referring to. A also, be forewarned, even if there were conclusive evidence that the temperature at the secondary were completely corrupted and unreliable, you'll still be unable to convince many on this list (nodding in Mr. Rothwell's direction) that the treat is inconclusive. You see, some believe the fact that the E-Cat was hot-to-the-touch after the hours, and still sounded like some boiling was going on its first-principle proof that there was excess heat. No amount of calculations could diminish this belief. Many dead-horses were beaten in this pursuit. Please provide photos that may aid in analysis, but do not try to draw conclusions. Any dismissal of the October 6th data will be religiously derided, and you will, in all likelihood, be personally attacked... Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 19:54:47 +1030 From: shauntaylor...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:University testing of the E-cat question asked on Rossi blog On 22/01/2012 6:57 PM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com mailto:shauntaylor...@gmail.com wrote: Rossi faked the 6 Oct data and fooled all the Experts that attended the demo. Some BIG names there. Hey, do me a favor. I agree that thermocouple (T-out) placement is critical and you can get almost any temp you want with incorrect placement. I also agree Rossi should have put the 'couple into the stream. But I don't quite see the trail of goop that tells you where it was originally before the insulation was moved. I hate to make work because this is an almost dead horse, but is there some way to make a clearer graphic about where the thermocouple tip was during the run with respect to the manifold and why? I see goop (probably silicon grease) on the brass fitting in the third image but I'm not sure what it tells us. When this all went down, I mentioned that the way to do away with measurement errors was to use Joule heating to calibrate the entire system used to measure output energy. The believers poopoo'd it but it's still true that such methodology also should have been used by Rossi (and by everyone who promotes LENR). The goop is where the bead of the thermocouple was placed. There is no other reason for anything like that material to be there other than to provide a good heat exchange between the brass fitting and the thermocouple head. Notice in the other 2 images it has been cleaned off the brass fitting. Not a good idea for it to be there too long as some sharp eyed observers may have questioned why that material was on that brass fitting. Can't have the observers asking awkward questions. Why was the bead placed there? Simple. Doing so would deliver a higher than reality Tout temperature, making the delta T look bigger than it really was and making the Ecat appear as if it was generating more energy than is was consuming. Horace got it right and was shouted down. Tells you something about the agendas of some who post here. I like a good mystery and being a natural skeptic, I enjoy a bit of digging. As for this not being relevant, I don't agree. It goes to the heart of a man who made multiple lies about the biggest event in LENR history, had others cover it up and has worked out how to generate good looking but still fraudulent data. Why does Rossi refuse independent testing? Because he knows the Ecat can't deliver what he claims it can. So he lies and creates bogus data. He may think he is buying time to make the home Ecat work as claimed. Maybe that is what he is doing and maybe he will eventually make it work. That does not alter that he has told really big and serious lies about the BBB, has been caught creating fabricated data and has damaged Lewans reputation as being an independent and unbiased reporter. Shaun
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
Am 21.01.2012 16:04, schrieb Daniel Rocha: Dear group: Take a look at the background 0:12, behind the e-cat, you will see the container at the same place. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odkfAjqA4pcfeature=related Rossi will have an explanation for this: You can see the additional e-cats mounted on the top of the container. It is clear that we could not deliver this to the customer. We had to rework this before delivery. You know, that the ecats are built by Leonardo Corp in US and it turned out, that delivery to US would be cumbersome because of customs formalities. So we decided to build a complete new one directly in US and kept the demo model in Italy. BTW, I predicted this months ago and as always my prediction about Rossi was pretty accurate. He always has an explanation, and it is a waste of time to watch this and to speculate about rumours. Unless there is a concrete demonstration of a working industrial or domestic installation I prefer to ignore this. ;-) Peter
[Vo]:Re: Rossi and the 6 Oct data is so busted
Image of heat transfer material and location of thermocouple bead before the insulation was removed. http://i43.tinypic.com/zk65b4.jpg I'm no expert but those who are always tell me to get valid temperature data with a bead thermocouples, the bead head needs to be covered with a thermal transfer compound and the bead head needs to be in full face contact with the heat source. Knowing that and looking at the Lewans close up, that seems to have been taken earlier than any other image of that location I can find, where the bead head was located and the removal path it followed during it's removal is clear. Shaun On 22/01/2012 5:00 PM, Shaun Taylor wrote: I refer the reader to this report by your own Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/Rossi6Oct2011Review.pdf Please to to the bottom of page 3 where Horace discussed the placement of the Tout thermocouple and in particular these 3 images http://www.redmatica.com/media/Thermo1.jpg http://www.redmatica.com/media/Thermo2.jpg http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/LewanTcoupleClose.jpg You need to look at the first 2 images before looking at the smoking gun evidence in the 3rd image. The device in the images is a parallel plate counter flow heat exchanger in which the input primary heat inlet is applied at the same end as the secondary heat outlet. This allows a dual function manifold, which is the big brass thing in the images that couples the input primary steam tubing to the heat exchanger primary inlet and in the same solid assembly couples the secondary heat exchange outlet to the outlet piping. Doing this, I have read, increases efficiency in counter flow heat exchangers as there is heat transfer occurring from the hot steam end of the manifold through the manifold body to the cooler outlet water flow end of the manifold. As the inlet water temperature was reported as about 23 deg C and the inlet steam was at about 110 deg C, the temperature differential across the manifold body could span that temperature range. You could then selectively place a thermocouple bead somewhere on that manifold body and get anything from 110 deg C to 23 deg C. With just a bit of trial and error you would be able to find the perfect spot to make the Tout appear to be anything you desire. Like 10 deg C above the inlet water temperature. Horace assumed from the 3rd image that the thermocouple was suspended in the air in front of the stainless nut or attached to the nut. I contend, from my brief usage of thermocouples, they need some thermal goop around the bead head to ensure a good heat transfer from the measuring surface to the thermocouple head. In 3rd image do you see any goop anywhere? Any on the stainless nut? Nope. Any anywhere else? Yup. On the brass fitting to the right and below of the stainless nut. In fact it sure looks like there was a thermocouple sized head placed in the goop and then withdrawn as the insulation was opened and removed. Zoom in to get a really good look at the goop. See the withdrawal track in the goop that is about the same size as that of the thermocouple bead? There is your smoking gun as to where the bead was located. It was thermally attached to the upper surface of that brass coupling that is thermally attached to the manifold body. Now ask yourself, if your intention was to accurately measure the temperature of the water leaving the dual manifold head, why would you attach the thermocouple to the manifold and not insert in into the stream of the exiting water? Well just maybe as the manifold was also heated by the 110 deg C steam flowing into the heat exchanger it would be a good place for the Tout thermocouple to pick up a higher than reality temperature for the exiting water flow. The goop and the necessary kink in the wire is there to allow the thermocouple head to attach where the goop is and are more than a smoking gun of intentional fraud. It is proof of fraud. I also suggest the kink in the wire was there to allow the bead position to be easily altered, moved or slid across the surface of the brass fitting so as to tune the Tout temperature to be exactly what Rossi needed to best fake the 6 Oct data. The 6 Oct Ecat data is rubbish as Horace Heffner originally claimed. Horace got it right and most of the rest of you got it wrong. Rossi you are a serial liar and you are busted for intentional measurement fraud. You rigged the Tout thermocouple placement onto the manifold body to generate a higher than reality temperature of the exiting water stream instead of inserting the thermocouple head into the stream of the exiting water and directly measuring the temperature of the water. Busted, Busted, Busted. Fraud, Fraud, Fraud. Liar, Liar, Liar. That should just about wrap this up. Anyone still think Rossi has made a significant contribution to humanity? Shaun
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
On 22/01/2012 9:32 PM, Peter wrote: Am 21.01.2012 16:04, schrieb Daniel Rocha: Dear group: Take a look at the background 0:12, behind the e-cat, you will see the container at the same place. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odkfAjqA4pcfeature=related Rossi will have an explanation for this: You can see the additional e-cats mounted on the top of the container. It is clear that we could not deliver this to the customer. We had to rework this before delivery. You know, that the ecats are built by Leonardo Corp in US and it turned out, that delivery to US would be cumbersome because of customs formalities. So we decided to build a complete new one directly in US and kept the demo model in Italy. BTW, I predicted this months ago and as always my prediction about Rossi was pretty accurate. He always has an explanation, and it is a waste of time to watch this and to speculate about rumours. Unless there is a concrete demonstration of a working industrial or domestic installation I prefer to ignore this. ;-) Peter Except Rossi has said NO BBB has been delivered to the US customer, the BBB in his workshop is being repaired and will ship to the customer in 1 - 2 months. As Lewans knew the BBB had not been shipped, does this also say Focardi and Levi knew Rossi was lying about the shipment and knew Rossi was lying about claiming he was installing the BBB at the US customers site? How could they not know? They work in his lab. Sort of hard to miss the BBB elephant is still in the workshop? Shaun
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi and the 6 Oct data is so busted
Shaun, I don't know if you know the following thread but this topic has been analyzed before: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg52981.html Further, Rossi answered to a question regarding the thermocouple placement: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg52669.html Wolf Image of heat transfer material and location of thermocouple bead before the insulation was removed. http://i43.tinypic.com/zk65b4.jpg I'm no expert but those who are always tell me to get valid temperature data with a bead thermocouples, the bead head needs to be covered with a thermal transfer compound and the bead head needs to be in full face contact with the heat source. Knowing that and looking at the Lewans close up, that seems to have been taken earlier than any other image of that location I can find, where the bead head was located and the removal path it followed during it's removal is clear. Shaun On 22/01/2012 5:00 PM, Shaun Taylor wrote: I refer the reader to this report by your own Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/Rossi6Oct2011Review.pdf Please to to the bottom of page 3 where Horace discussed the placement of the Tout thermocouple and in particular these 3 images http://www.redmatica.com/media/Thermo1.jpg http://www.redmatica.com/media/Thermo2.jpg http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/LewanTcoupleClose.jpg You need to look at the first 2 images before looking at the smoking gun evidence in the 3rd image. The device in the images is a parallel plate counter flow heat exchanger in which the input primary heat inlet is applied at the same end as the secondary heat outlet. This allows a dual function manifold, which is the big brass thing in the images that couples the input primary steam tubing to the heat exchanger primary inlet and in the same solid assembly couples the secondary heat exchange outlet to the outlet piping. Doing this, I have read, increases efficiency in counter flow heat exchangers as there is heat transfer occurring from the hot steam end of the manifold through the manifold body to the cooler outlet water flow end of the manifold. As the inlet water temperature was reported as about 23 deg C and the inlet steam was at about 110 deg C, the temperature differential across the manifold body could span that temperature range. You could then selectively place a thermocouple bead somewhere on that manifold body and get anything from 110 deg C to 23 deg C. With just a bit of trial and error you would be able to find the perfect spot to make the Tout appear to be anything you desire. Like 10 deg C above the inlet water temperature. Horace assumed from the 3rd image that the thermocouple was suspended in the air in front of the stainless nut or attached to the nut. I contend, from my brief usage of thermocouples, they need some thermal goop around the bead head to ensure a good heat transfer from the measuring surface to the thermocouple head. In 3rd image do you see any goop anywhere? Any on the stainless nut? Nope. Any anywhere else? Yup. On the brass fitting to the right and below of the stainless nut. In fact it sure looks like there was a thermocouple sized head placed in the goop and then withdrawn as the insulation was opened and removed. Zoom in to get a really good look at the goop. See the withdrawal track in the goop that is about the same size as that of the thermocouple bead? There is your smoking gun as to where the bead was located. It was thermally attached to the upper surface of that brass coupling that is thermally attached to the manifold body. Now ask yourself, if your intention was to accurately measure the temperature of the water leaving the dual manifold head, why would you attach the thermocouple to the manifold and not insert in into the stream of the exiting water? Well just maybe as the manifold was also heated by the 110 deg C steam flowing into the heat exchanger it would be a good place for the Tout thermocouple to pick up a higher than reality temperature for the exiting water flow. The goop and the necessary kink in the wire is there to allow the thermocouple head to attach where the goop is and are more than a smoking gun of intentional fraud. It is proof of fraud. I also suggest the kink in the wire was there to allow the bead position to be easily altered, moved or slid across the surface of the brass fitting so as to tune the Tout temperature to be exactly what Rossi needed to best fake the 6 Oct data. The 6 Oct Ecat data is rubbish as Horace Heffner originally claimed. Horace got it right and most of the rest of you got it wrong. Rossi you are a serial liar and you are busted for intentional measurement fraud. You rigged the Tout thermocouple placement onto the manifold body to generate a higher than reality temperature of the exiting water stream instead of inserting the thermocouple head into the stream of the exiting water and directly measuring the temperature of the water. Busted, Busted,
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi and the 6 Oct data is so busted
On 22/01/2012 10:15 PM, Wolf Fischer wrote: Shaun, I don't know if you know the following thread but this topic has been analyzed before: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg52981.html Further, Rossi answered to a question regarding the thermocouple placement: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg52669.html Wolf Please, no one not even Rossi would position the Tout thermocouple bead floating in the air and expect it to accurately measure the temperature of the water in the yellow tube. The position you see is after the insulation was removed and the wire straightened out. Why do I say that? Look at how tightly the white insulation is compressed around the right side of the stainless nut. That amount of pressure on the thermocouple lead would have forced it to bend to conform to the shape of the nut. There is no evidence this occurred. Instead the thermocouple wire has a prominent kink about 50% of the way between the bead and where the wire is taped to the outlet fitting. This suggests the wire was bent in the middle and pushed down into the insulation, allowing the bead to come into contact with the brass fitting and the thermal transfer material and to be exposed to thermal leakage from the 110 deg C hot end of the manifold. Then the valley that is visible in the thermal transfer material image was formed when the insulation was removed and the bead was removed from being in contact with the brass fitting. As for Rossi saying the placement was checked to have no bias, (small lie on his part) he also said the BBB was shipped to the customer and that he had visited the customer to install the BBB (really big lie). Both of those big lie statements we now know are false. Why do you now give his Trust Me statement that he checked the placement and there was not temperature bias. I say BS Mr. Rossi. There is no way that thermocouple placement could have measured the real water temperature. No way in hell. Rossi is lying. Just liked the lied about the BBB. He has no regard for the truth and has proven that on many occasions. So please don't say to me it must be so because Rossi said it was so. He is a liar of top level lies. Stop believing his lies. Shaun
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi and the 6 Oct data is so busted
Shaun, I didn't say anything about believing or not Rossi. I was more kind of questioning if this topic has to be discussed once more. Wolf On 22/01/2012 10:15 PM, Wolf Fischer wrote: Shaun, I don't know if you know the following thread but this topic has been analyzed before: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg52981.html Further, Rossi answered to a question regarding the thermocouple placement: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg52669.html Wolf Please, no one not even Rossi would position the Tout thermocouple bead floating in the air and expect it to accurately measure the temperature of the water in the yellow tube. The position you see is after the insulation was removed and the wire straightened out. Why do I say that? Look at how tightly the white insulation is compressed around the right side of the stainless nut. That amount of pressure on the thermocouple lead would have forced it to bend to conform to the shape of the nut. There is no evidence this occurred. Instead the thermocouple wire has a prominent kink about 50% of the way between the bead and where the wire is taped to the outlet fitting. This suggests the wire was bent in the middle and pushed down into the insulation, allowing the bead to come into contact with the brass fitting and the thermal transfer material and to be exposed to thermal leakage from the 110 deg C hot end of the manifold. Then the valley that is visible in the thermal transfer material image was formed when the insulation was removed and the bead was removed from being in contact with the brass fitting. As for Rossi saying the placement was checked to have no bias, (small lie on his part) he also said the BBB was shipped to the customer and that he had visited the customer to install the BBB (really big lie). Both of those big lie statements we now know are false. Why do you now give his Trust Me statement that he checked the placement and there was not temperature bias. I say BS Mr. Rossi. There is no way that thermocouple placement could have measured the real water temperature. No way in hell. Rossi is lying. Just liked the lied about the BBB. He has no regard for the truth and has proven that on many occasions. So please don't say to me it must be so because Rossi said it was so. He is a liar of top level lies. Stop believing his lies. Shaun
[Vo]:Greg Watson is VERY rude!
Re: [SunGrid] Re: Would you believe SUNCUBE MK 8 !!! Let me make this VERY clear Dog Shit On Your Breath. I have no intention of proving anything to you. You have NO value to me or anybody else. NONE. ZIP. ZILCH. ZERO. So just enjoy flagging those lips and eating your chosen food cause that is all you will ever have in life. All the best, Green and Gold Energy Pty., Ltd Greg Watson, CEO 7 Provident Avenue, Glynde, 5070 South Australia, Australia, +61 8 8365 5844 http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au - Original Message - From: dogshitontoast dogshitontoast@... To: sung...@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:18 AM Subject: [SunGrid] Once more for the slow learners This group was kindly set up by Chris back in May 2007 An invitation was extended to those who wished to get of the Suncube rollercoaster More than 600 posts in the first month confirmed that many people did indeed wish to get off. Efforts to come up with a DIY concentrating photovoltaic system seem to have been unsuccessful thus far. Meanwhile Greg has continued with his Suncube. It is a FACT that solar farms using thousands of Suncubes could never be economically viable. It is a FACT that the Suncube design is unsuitable for installation on domestic pitched roofs. It is a FACT that the claimed performance of the Suncube has never been convincingly demonstrated. Vote now..Dogshitontoast.I won't give you any Bull Re: [SunGrid] Once more for the slow learners Vote Now? Demanding everybody follow your commands? Want to be in control do we? Want to actually do something with your life other than talk? Well the reality is you don't matter. Never have. Never will. You have never had a positive thought in your brain. Never worked to create anything. Well maybe never even worked? Come on tell us all about what you have done with your life? You will be remember how? For what? All the best, Green and Gold Energy Pty., Ltd Greg Watson, CEO 7 Provident Avenue, Glynde, 5070 South Australia, Australia, +61 8 8365 5844 http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au HOW RUDE!
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi and the 6 Oct data is so busted
On 23/01/2012 12:01 AM, Wolf Fischer wrote: Shaun, I didn't say anything about believing or not Rossi. I was more kind of questioning if this topic has to be discussed once more. Wolf We have new data Rossi has been caught telling 2 really big lies The position of the Tout thermocouple is now more certain. It was not positioned on the stainless nut or further out in the air. It was bedded down in thermal transfer material. There would have been significant heat bleed from the 110 deg C steam input side of the manifold. Therefor ALL of the Tout measurements are too high. There is no way that the temp measured by the bead could be the water temp, despite what Rossi said and claimed. So he has been caught in another lie. All the time spent by others in analyzing the data, other than Horace, has been a waste of time as they assumed the Tout probe temperature was that of the water. Shaun
[Vo]:Greg Watson living HIGH ON THE HOG (OINK)
Doing a First class taster run. Flying out Adl/Syd DJ Y, Syd/Bkk QF 744/F, Bkk/Hkg Thai 744/F, Hkg/Bkk CX 744/F, Bkk/Hkg/Sin Emirates 388/F and United 744/F, Sin/Syd QF 388/F and back to Adl on QF Y So will get to experience First on: QF 744 Thai 744 CX 744 United 744 Emirates 388 QF 388 Should be interesting. Will do a TR with photos. connieguy Guest Re: Should WP riff-raff be banned from the business lounges? Originally Posted by russ As a frequent domestic business traveller, I am am disappointed that I often need to wait behind a bunch of red e-deal-toting splice-eating WP riff-raff at the buffet and the bar. Qantas doesn't let them sit in business class section of the aircraft without a deduction of points, or, deity forbid, defile the forward toilet with their bottoms, so why does Qantas let them into the business lounge willy-nilly? There is a perfectly acceptable QP next door where the WPs can sit and recheck their seats at T-80, T-79, T-78 etc or whatever they do. If QP wishes to continue to charge a premium for its business class passengers, it needs to get rid of the Holiday Inn-staying, taxi-using crowd and provide a true business class lounge for business class passengers.Hey Russ, When you do fly enough butt in the seat miles, sleep in airplane seats more than you do in hotel beds, spend more time on the road than home doing business and finally qualify for QF Platinum, I suggest you may just alter your image of how much QF WP do deserve the advantages QF Platinum delivers. Until then watch through your glass ceiling as the real Frequent and long distance Qantas flyers enjoy their hard earned and well deserved Platinum privileges. At least, in the excellent QF international F lounges in Mel and Syd, I'll never bump into or sit next to you as my fellow WPs and I enjoy the massages and sit down restaurant's melt in your mouth Salt and Pepper Squid, excellent wines and other WP privileges. Greg (First class WANKER!)
Re: [Vo]:University testing of the E-cat question asked on Rossi blog
Shaun Taylor sez: The goop is where the bead of the thermocouple was placed. There is no other reason for anything like that material to be there other than to provide a good heat exchange between the brass fitting and the thermocouple head. Notice in the other 2 images it has been cleaned off the brass fitting. Not a good idea for it to be there too long as some sharp eyed observers may have questioned why that material was on that brass fitting. Can't have the observers asking awkward questions. Why was the bead placed there? Simple. Doing so would deliver a higher than reality Tout temperature, making the delta T look bigger than it really was and making the Ecat appear as if it was generating more energy than is was consuming. Shaun, you are in error. I have examined your pictures and like Mary, I do not see the significance of the goop you are referring to. BUT ... For the sake of discussion, I accept your premise that the goop was placed there so that Tout can be higher than it would have been. Then, explain to me why the Tout remained a flat line for 4 hours, if there is no active process occuring that is generating heat to keep that temp flat. People is that room, including Jed, verified that there was no input power to the heating element, and yet Tout was flat as a pancake, and even increased slightly. You can not explain how this anomaly could have happened no matter how much of verbal goop you use. Maybe, like Cude, you will claim that there is some heat storing media in there that is storing the heat and releasing it for 4 hours. If that were so, then explain why Tout slowly dropped after the Hydrogen was vented to end the test after 4 hours. If you invented a heat storing media that can be regulated to release heat in a controlled fashion for over 4 hours causing a flat Tout reading and then for some reason stops releasing the heat on cue after the hydrogen is vented; if you know of such material; by all means, apply for a patent for such a material, as that material would be worth millions in everyday practical applications. Like other pseudo-skeptics, you just accept the data that supports your preconcieved notions. You ignore the flat Tout data and you question the integrity and competence of many people much smarter than you who were in fact in that room personally witnessing the test. What makes you think you have come up with a reason that others have not thought of? Don't you think Jed would have forgotten to verify that there was no input power to the heating element? Come on, get real. Jojo
[Vo]:Greg Watson living HIGH ON THE HOG (OINK)
Eff, I thoroughly enjoy Vortex for its high quality technical content and smart people. PLEASE do not drag Vortex down in the mud by using it as your personal venue to air your problems. As long as I have been lurking here, Aussie Guy has been a positive contributor to this collective. And, you don't even have proof Aussie Guy is Greg Watson. Jojo Jaro
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
Do you have any evidence that Rossi said it had not been delivered to the secret customer from *before* this issue blew up? The only actual statement about the location of the BBB that I know of is from October 30, when Rossi answered both of these questions 1. Is the 1MW container gone? 2. Have you started building another 1MW in another container? with Yes (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=27#comment-106637). It's hard to interpret Is the container gone? as It's still here, even with the language barrier. As for Focardi and Levi, I notice that they never corrected any of the various lies about the University of Bologna actually performing independent testing of the E-Cat. If they didn't bother correcting that, I don't see why they would correct this. From: Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Except Rossi has said NO BBB has been delivered to the US customer, the BBB in his workshop is being repaired and will ship to the customer in 1 - 2 months. As Lewans knew the BBB had not been shipped, does this also say Focardi and Levi knew Rossi was lying about the shipment and knew Rossi was lying about claiming he was installing the BBB at the US customers site? How could they not know? They work in his lab. Sort of hard to miss the BBB elephant is still in the workshop? Shaun
Re: [Vo]:Greg Watson is VERY rude!
Eff: Who cares? This is personal garbage. Please get it OFF VORTEX. Take your personal vendetta someplace else.
Re: [Vo]:Greg Watson is VERY rude!
Eff: Who cares? This is personal garbage. Please get it OFF VORTEX. Take your personal vendetta someplace else. At least take it to vortexb. Grok is waiting.
Re: [Vo]:Greg Watson is VERY rude!
Bollocks!
Re: [Vo]:Greg Watson living HIGH ON THE HOG (OINK)
Aussie Guy is welcome to come back and explain that he is not really Greg Watson and then he can continue to bless you with his positivity and technical excellence. For as long as you guys continue to support criminal fraudsters like Andrea Rossi and Greg Watson aka Aussie Guy I will continue with my public spirited efforts to expose their true nature. If you do not believe that Rossi is a fraud then you will probably never believe that Aussie Guy IS Greg Watson. I know that it is him. I am an expert on the subject of Greg Pinocchio Watson. Why not show your support for the lovely Ecat by placing your order right now? They sound very nice.
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
Rossi said that there were 2 containers. Since the definite article the did not specify each one, he said yes! Meaning, the one which was not shown in the videos was gone. 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com Do you have any evidence that Rossi said it had not been delivered to the secret customer from *before* this issue blew up? The only actual statement about the location of the BBB that I know of is from October 30, when Rossi answered both of these questions 1. Is the 1MW container gone? 2. Have you started building another 1MW in another container? with Yes ( http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=27#comment-106637). It's hard to interpret Is the container gone? as It's still here, even with the language barrier. As for Focardi and Levi, I notice that they never corrected any of the various lies about the University of Bologna actually performing independent testing of the E-Cat. If they didn't bother correcting that, I don't see why they would correct this. From: Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Except Rossi has said NO BBB has been delivered to the US customer, the BBB in his workshop is being repaired and will ship to the customer in 1 - 2 months. As Lewans knew the BBB had not been shipped, does this also say Focardi and Levi knew Rossi was lying about the shipment and knew Rossi was lying about claiming he was installing the BBB at the US customers site? How could they not know? They work in his lab. Sort of hard to miss the BBB elephant is still in the workshop? Shaun -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
What a fool believes! From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, 22 January 2012 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Rossi said that there were 2 containers. Since the definite article the did not specify each one, he said yes! Meaning, the one which was not shown in the videos was gone. 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com Do you have any evidence that Rossi said it had not been delivered to the secret customer from *before* this issue blew up? The only actual statement about the location of the BBB that I know of is from October 30, when Rossi answered both of these questions 1. Is the 1MW container gone? 2. Have you started building another 1MW in another container? with Yes (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=27#comment-106637). It's hard to interpret Is the container gone? as It's still here, even with the language barrier. As for Focardi and Levi, I notice that they never corrected any of the various lies about the University of Bologna actually performing independent testing of the E-Cat. If they didn't bother correcting that, I don't see why they would correct this. From: Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Except Rossi has said NO BBB has been delivered to the US customer, the BBB in his workshop is being repaired and will ship to the customer in 1 - 2 months. As Lewans knew the BBB had not been shipped, does this also say Focardi and Levi knew Rossi was lying about the shipment and knew Rossi was lying about claiming he was installing the BBB at the US customers site? How could they not know? They work in his lab. Sort of hard to miss the BBB elephant is still in the workshop? Shaun -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Greg Watson living HIGH ON THE HOG (OINK)
Eff, this forum is NOT your personal playground. You have stated your case, provided your proof and aired your concerns. Everyone has heard it and some disagree with you. It is time to stop repeating it and hijacking this excellent forum with your garbage. Please stop. BTW, I did preorder an E-Cat home unit. Jojo Jaro
RE: [Vo]:unpowered test of Ecat
Very interesting! It's obvious that the water being released at the end of the video is at a *MUCH* higher pressure than the water/steam coming out of the rubber hose. I guess that means that there are two separate containers of water. According to Mats Lewan, that high-pressure stream continued for about 3 minutes(!), even though the video ended after about 1:20. I recall reading that the pump used to pump water into the E-Cat was sensitive to back-pressure. With the kind of pressure being displayed in that video, the pump probably couldn't pump any water at all into the E-Cat, which is another indicator that there are two separate containers of water. It occurs to me that an easy experiment would be to take a pressure tank with a valve like the one at the bottom of the E-Cat, fill it half full of water, pressurize the container to various levels, then open the valve part-way (matching the video), and see how much pressure it takes to produce the same kind of stream. Once the appropriate pressure is found, it would be easy to determine the maximum temperature for liquid water at that pressure, and from that, the amount of heat energy actually being stored in the water. Eff Wivakeef Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:46:45 -0800 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNhQIufkdL4feature=related Fast forward to 6:40 Huge blast of steam and hot water. What is going on here?
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
So... Rossi had the old container in his warehouse on 10/28, for the dog pony show. Meanwhile, he had a second box hidden somewhere else (or he build a second one between 10/28 and 10/30, when he claimed it was gone). The secret customer tested the old box, but took delivery of the new box. But Rossi admitted recently that he's working on the old box to make it ready for the secret customer, who you claim has a different, previously unknown box. Sure! That makes perfect sense. From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Rossi said that there were 2 containers. Since the definite article the did not specify each one, he said yes! Meaning, the one which was not shown in the videos was gone. 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com Do you have any evidence that Rossi said it had not been delivered to the secret customer from *before* this issue blew up? The only actual statement about the location of the BBB that I know of is from October 30, when Rossi answered both of these questions 1. Is the 1MW container gone? 2. Have you started building another 1MW in another container? with Yes (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=27#comment-106637). It's hard to interpret Is the container gone? as It's still here, even with the language barrier. As for Focardi and Levi, I notice that they never corrected any of the various lies about the University of Bologna actually performing independent testing of the E-Cat. If they didn't bother correcting that, I don't see why they would correct this. From: Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Except Rossi has said NO BBB has been delivered to the US customer, the BBB in his workshop is being repaired and will ship to the customer in 1 - 2 months. As Lewans knew the BBB had not been shipped, does this also say Focardi and Levi knew Rossi was lying about the shipment and knew Rossi was lying about claiming he was installing the BBB at the US customers site? How could they not know? They work in his lab. Sort of hard to miss the BBB elephant is still in the workshop? Shaun -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
That's his sandbox! While the customer gets used to the new broken one, he works in parallel in the one in his office. When it's fixed, he is going to put the new control system in the old one! 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com So... Rossi had the old container in his warehouse on 10/28, for the dog pony show. Meanwhile, he had a second box hidden somewhere else (or he build a second one between 10/28 and 10/30, when he claimed it was gone). The secret customer tested the old box, but took delivery of the new box. But Rossi admitted recently that he's working on the old box to make it ready for the secret customer, who you claim has a different, previously unknown box. Sure! That makes perfect sense. -- *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com *To:* John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Sunday, January 22, 2012 9:47 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Rossi said that there were 2 containers. Since the definite article the did not specify each one, he said yes! Meaning, the one which was not shown in the videos was gone. 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com Do you have any evidence that Rossi said it had not been delivered to the secret customer from *before* this issue blew up? The only actual statement about the location of the BBB that I know of is from October 30, when Rossi answered both of these questions 1. Is the 1MW container gone? 2. Have you started building another 1MW in another container? with Yes ( http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=27#comment-106637). It's hard to interpret Is the container gone? as It's still here, even with the language barrier. As for Focardi and Levi, I notice that they never corrected any of the various lies about the University of Bologna actually performing independent testing of the E-Cat. If they didn't bother correcting that, I don't see why they would correct this. From: Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Except Rossi has said NO BBB has been delivered to the US customer, the BBB in his workshop is being repaired and will ship to the customer in 1 - 2 months. As Lewans knew the BBB had not been shipped, does this also say Focardi and Levi knew Rossi was lying about the shipment and knew Rossi was lying about claiming he was installing the BBB at the US customers site? How could they not know? They work in his lab. Sort of hard to miss the BBB elephant is still in the workshop? Shaun -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
Not to mention that on 10/30 Rossi answered Yes to the question Have you started building another 1MW in another container? He said nothing about having finished a second box, nor of having shipped it. It's clear from his answers that the first box is gone (lie) and that he is working on a second box (lie, unless he's building the second box at a different location). From: John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. So... Rossi had the old container in his warehouse on 10/28, for the dog pony show. Meanwhile, he had a second box hidden somewhere else (or he build a second one between 10/28 and 10/30, when he claimed it was gone). The secret customer tested the old box, but took delivery of the new box. But Rossi admitted recently that he's working on the old box to make it ready for the secret customer, who you claim has a different, previously unknown box. Sure! That makes perfect sense. From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Rossi said that there were 2 containers. Since the definite article the did not specify each one, he said yes! Meaning, the one which was not shown in the videos was gone.
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
Sure! You are right. He said he was present in the installation of other box in the customer's site. 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com Not to mention that on 10/30 Rossi answered Yes to the question Have you started building another 1MW in another container? He said nothing about having finished a second box, nor of having shipped it. It's clear from his answers that the first box is gone (lie) and that he is working on a second box (lie, unless he's building the second box at a different location). -- *From:* John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:08 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. So... Rossi had the old container in his warehouse on 10/28, for the dog pony show. Meanwhile, he had a second box hidden somewhere else (or he build a second one between 10/28 and 10/30, when he claimed it was gone). The secret customer tested the old box, but took delivery of the new box. But Rossi admitted recently that he's working on the old box to make it ready for the secret customer, who you claim has a different, previously unknown box. Sure! That makes perfect sense. -- *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com *To:* John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Sunday, January 22, 2012 9:47 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Rossi said that there were 2 containers. Since the definite article the did not specify each one, he said yes! Meaning, the one which was not shown in the videos was gone. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
If you're being sarcastic, I congratulate you on your subtlety. If you're being serious, I would ask you to provide any evidence at all to support your statement. It directly contradicts everything that Rossi has said. On October 30 (just two days after the dog pony show) that *the* box was gone, and that he had a new box he was constructing. From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. That's his sandbox! While the customer gets used to the new broken one, he works in parallel in the one in his office. When it's fixed, he is going to put the new control system in the old one! 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com So... Rossi had the old container in his warehouse on 10/28, for the dog pony show. Meanwhile, he had a second box hidden somewhere else (or he build a second one between 10/28 and 10/30, when he claimed it was gone). The secret customer tested the old box, but took delivery of the new box. But Rossi admitted recently that he's working on the old box to make it ready for the secret customer, who you claim has a different, previously unknown box. Sure! That makes perfect sense. From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Rossi said that there were 2 containers. Since the definite article the did not specify each one, he said yes! Meaning, the one which was not shown in the videos was gone. 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com Do you have any evidence that Rossi said it had not been delivered to the secret customer from *before* this issue blew up? The only actual statement about the location of the BBB that I know of is from October 30, when Rossi answered both of these questions 1. Is the 1MW container gone? 2. Have you started building another 1MW in another container? with Yes (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=27#comment-106637). It's hard to interpret Is the container gone? as It's still here, even with the language barrier. As for Focardi and Levi, I notice that they never corrected any of the various lies about the University of Bologna actually performing independent testing of the E-Cat. If they didn't bother correcting that, I don't see why they would correct this. From: Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Except Rossi has said NO BBB has been delivered to the US customer, the BBB in his workshop is being repaired and will ship to the customer in 1 - 2 months. As Lewans knew the BBB had not been shipped, does this also say Focardi and Levi knew Rossi was lying about the shipment and knew Rossi was lying about claiming he was installing the BBB at the US customers site? How could they not know? They work in his lab. Sort of hard to miss the BBB elephant is still in the workshop? Shaun -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
RE: [Vo]:unpowered test of Ecat
Horace Hefner did some excellent analysis on this subject, presuming that there is a check valve and/or flow restrictor at the output. From the stability of the E-Cat temp, you can tell that it is at boiling temperature, with a mix of water and vapor. Simple steam charts will show you that the internal pressure of the E-Cat rises as high as 3 bar (134C=3 bar). http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html You are 100% correct that this back pressure will decrease the water added by the pump. This is ask well trodden ground, so I'd recommend searching the archives. Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 07:02:28 -0800 From: john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:unpowered test of Ecat To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Very interesting! It's obvious that the water being released at the end of the video is at a *MUCH* higher pressure than the water/steam coming out of the rubber hose. I guess that means that there are two separate containers of water. According to Mats Lewan, that high-pressure stream continued for about 3 minutes(!), even though the video ended after about 1:20. I recall reading that the pump used to pump water into the E-Cat was sensitive to back-pressure. With the kind of pressure being displayed in that video, the pump probably couldn't pump any water at all into the E-Cat, which is another indicator that there are two separate containers of water. It occurs to me that an easy experiment would be to take a pressure tank with a valve like the one at the bottom of the E-Cat, fill it half full of water, pressurize the container to various levels, then open the valve part-way (matching the video), and see how much pressure it takes to produce the same kind of stream. Once the appropriate pressure is found, it would be easy to determine the maximum temperature for liquid water at that pressure, and from that, the amount of heat energy actually being stored in the water. Eff Wivakeef Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:46:45 -0800http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNhQIufkdL4feature=related Fast forward to 6:40 Huge blast of steam and hot water. What is going on here?
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
I believe that is a brand new theory! Congratulations. So... The secret company set up a big, secret acceptance test, which, although secret, had lots of outsiders, including reporters, to report on the secret acceptance test. There was only one BBB at the location, and that's the BBB the secret customer secretly tested, while all the reporters and everyone watched. Then, the secret customer buys a different, secret BBB that Rossi had stashed away somewhere else. I guess that one is a loaner, until Rossi fixes the one they actually tested. Good thing the different, secret BBB apparently works better than the one they tested, which still isn't ready for use after thee months! This theory really brings into question why they bothered having the secret acceptance test (with all the reporters and outsiders watching) when that wasn't even the box they were buying. Either the secret customer hauled off an untested BBB, or the October 28th test was nothing more than a publicity stunt by Rossi. From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Sure! You are right. He said he was present in the installation of other box in the customer's site. 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com Not to mention that on 10/30 Rossi answered Yes to the question Have you started building another 1MW in another container? He said nothing about having finished a second box, nor of having shipped it. It's clear from his answers that the first box is gone (lie) and that he is working on a second box (lie, unless he's building the second box at a different location). From: John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. So... Rossi had the old container in his warehouse on 10/28, for the dog pony show. Meanwhile, he had a second box hidden somewhere else (or he build a second one between 10/28 and 10/30, when he claimed it was gone). The secret customer tested the old box, but took delivery of the new box. But Rossi admitted recently that he's working on the old box to make it ready for the secret customer, who you claim has a different, previously unknown box. Sure! That makes perfect sense. From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Rossi said that there were 2 containers. Since the definite article the did not specify each one, he said yes! Meaning, the one which was not shown in the videos was gone. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
Rossi installed the other box at the customer's site, he even supervise it. Probably he also tested the other box there. 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com I believe that is a brand new theory! Congratulations. So... The secret company set up a big, secret acceptance test, which, although secret, had lots of outsiders, including reporters, to report on the secret acceptance test. There was only one BBB at the location, and that's the BBB the secret customer secretly tested, while all the reporters and everyone watched. Then, the secret customer buys a different, secret BBB that Rossi had stashed away somewhere else. I guess that one is a loaner, until Rossi fixes the one they actually tested. Good thing the different, secret BBB apparently works better than the one they tested, which still isn't ready for use after thee months! This theory really brings into question why they bothered having the secret acceptance test (with all the reporters and outsiders watching) when that wasn't even the box they were buying. Either the secret customer hauled off an untested BBB, or the October 28th test was nothing more than a publicity stunt by Rossi. -- *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com *To:* John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:19 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Sure! You are right. He said he was present in the installation of other box in the customer's site. 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com Not to mention that on 10/30 Rossi answered Yes to the question Have you started building another 1MW in another container? He said nothing about having finished a second box, nor of having shipped it. It's clear from his answers that the first box is gone (lie) and that he is working on a second box (lie, unless he's building the second box at a different location). -- *From:* John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:08 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. So... Rossi had the old container in his warehouse on 10/28, for the dog pony show. Meanwhile, he had a second box hidden somewhere else (or he build a second one between 10/28 and 10/30, when he claimed it was gone). The secret customer tested the old box, but took delivery of the new box. But Rossi admitted recently that he's working on the old box to make it ready for the secret customer, who you claim has a different, previously unknown box. Sure! That makes perfect sense. -- *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com *To:* John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Sunday, January 22, 2012 9:47 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Rossi said that there were 2 containers. Since the definite article the did not specify each one, he said yes! Meaning, the one which was not shown in the videos was gone. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:unpowered test of Ecat
Yes, I remember reading Horace Hefner's analysis. As I recall, he (as well as some others) have repeatedly questioned the very stability you mention. It seems unlikely that the core can know how much energy to produce to keep the device exactly at the right temperature to just barely keep the water at the boiling point. And, given the doubts about the accuracy of the placement and use of the temperature sensors, any conclusions based on temperature reading is suspect. Mats Lewan stated in November that Rossi has has supplied all temperature instruments (http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_eai_emails.php), so that's an open issue. It would be interesting to actually know what the pressure of the water jetting out of the E-Cat at the end of that video really was. I proposed a simple way of determining that, that's all. From: Robert Leguillon robert.leguil...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:24 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:unpowered test of Ecat Horace Hefner did some excellent analysis on this subject, presuming that there is a check valve and/or flow restrictor at the output. From the stability of the E-Cat temp, you can tell that it is at boiling temperature, with a mix of water and vapor. Simple steam charts will show you that the internal pressure of the E-Cat rises as high as 3 bar (134C=3 bar). http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html You are 100% correct that this back pressure will decrease the water added by the pump. This is ask well trodden ground, so I'd recommend searching the archives. Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 07:02:28 -0800 From: john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:unpowered test of Ecat To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Very interesting! It's obvious that the water being released at the end of the video is at a *MUCH* higher pressure than the water/steam coming out of the rubber hose. I guess that means that there are two separate containers of water. According to Mats Lewan, that high-pressure stream continued for about 3 minutes(!), even though the video ended after about 1:20. I recall reading that the pump used to pump water into the E-Cat was sensitive to back-pressure. With the kind of pressure being displayed in that video, the pump probably couldn't pump any water at all into the E-Cat, which is another indicator that there are two separate containers of water. It occurs to me that an easy experiment would be to take a pressure tank with a valve like the one at the bottom of the E-Cat, fill it half full of water, pressurize the container to various levels, then open the valve part-way (matching the video), and see how much pressure it takes to produce the same kind of stream. Once the appropriate pressure is found, it would be easy to determine the maximum temperature for liquid water at that pressure, and from that, the amount of heat energy actually being stored in the water. Eff Wivakeef Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:46:45 -0800 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNhQIufkdL4feature=related Fast forward to 6:40 Huge blast of steam and hot water. What is going on here?
Re: [Vo]:unpowered test of Ecat
Here is a chart of Boiling Point versus pressure. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html My guestimate for the pressure (judging by the sound and appearance of the geyser) is probably not more than 50 PSI. If that guess is correct it means the water in the 'pressure cooker could be about 140 C. That would make quite a good heat reservoir to draw on during the alleged unpowered test. Presumably the vessel is quite separate from the water being pumped through the Ecat but is thermally coupled via a heat exchanger. How much energy could be drawn from that heat reservoir? Well, let's assume that at the start of the unpowered test the water in the reservoir is at 140 C and that at the end of the test it is at 110 C (thus allowing the output temperature to remain above 100C. Delta T = 30 C Let's say that the volume of water is 20 Litres. (could be more) Calories stored = 20,000 x 30 = 600,000 Calories = 0.7 Kwh Interesting! .Notes The calorie, or gram calorie, is the quantity of heat required to raise the temperature of 1 gram of pure water 1°C; Convert calories to Kwh http://www.calculateme.com/Energy/calories/ToKilowattHours.htm
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
OK. Have a nice day. From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Rossi installed the other box at the customer's site, he even supervise it. Probably he also tested the other box there. 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com I believe that is a brand new theory! Congratulations. So... The secret company set up a big, secret acceptance test, which, although secret, had lots of outsiders, including reporters, to report on the secret acceptance test. There was only one BBB at the location, and that's the BBB the secret customer secretly tested, while all the reporters and everyone watched. Then, the secret customer buys a different, secret BBB that Rossi had stashed away somewhere else. I guess that one is a loaner, until Rossi fixes the one they actually tested. Good thing the different, secret BBB apparently works better than the one they tested, which still isn't ready for use after thee months! This theory really brings into question why they bothered having the secret acceptance test (with all the reporters and outsiders watching) when that wasn't even the box they were buying. Either the secret customer hauled off an untested BBB, or the October 28th test was nothing more than a publicity stunt by Rossi. From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Sure! You are right. He said he was present in the installation of other box in the customer's site. 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com Not to mention that on 10/30 Rossi answered Yes to the question Have you started building another 1MW in another container? He said nothing about having finished a second box, nor of having shipped it. It's clear from his answers that the first box is gone (lie) and that he is working on a second box (lie, unless he's building the second box at a different location). From: John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. So... Rossi had the old container in his warehouse on 10/28, for the dog pony show. Meanwhile, he had a second box hidden somewhere else (or he build a second one between 10/28 and 10/30, when he claimed it was gone). The secret customer tested the old box, but took delivery of the new box. But Rossi admitted recently that he's working on the old box to make it ready for the secret customer, who you claim has a different, previously unknown box. Sure! That makes perfect sense. From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Rossi said that there were 2 containers. Since the definite article the did not specify each one, he said yes! Meaning, the one which was not shown in the videos was gone. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
Haha! :D 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com OK. Have a nice day. -- *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com *To:* John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:36 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Rossi installed the other box at the customer's site, he even supervise it. Probably he also tested the other box there. 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com I believe that is a brand new theory! Congratulations. So... The secret company set up a big, secret acceptance test, which, although secret, had lots of outsiders, including reporters, to report on the secret acceptance test. There was only one BBB at the location, and that's the BBB the secret customer secretly tested, while all the reporters and everyone watched. Then, the secret customer buys a different, secret BBB that Rossi had stashed away somewhere else. I guess that one is a loaner, until Rossi fixes the one they actually tested. Good thing the different, secret BBB apparently works better than the one they tested, which still isn't ready for use after thee months! This theory really brings into question why they bothered having the secret acceptance test (with all the reporters and outsiders watching) when that wasn't even the box they were buying. Either the secret customer hauled off an untested BBB, or the October 28th test was nothing more than a publicity stunt by Rossi. -- *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com *To:* John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:19 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Sure! You are right. He said he was present in the installation of other box in the customer's site. 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com Not to mention that on 10/30 Rossi answered Yes to the question Have you started building another 1MW in another container? He said nothing about having finished a second box, nor of having shipped it. It's clear from his answers that the first box is gone (lie) and that he is working on a second box (lie, unless he's building the second box at a different location). -- *From:* John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:08 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. So... Rossi had the old container in his warehouse on 10/28, for the dog pony show. Meanwhile, he had a second box hidden somewhere else (or he build a second one between 10/28 and 10/30, when he claimed it was gone). The secret customer tested the old box, but took delivery of the new box. But Rossi admitted recently that he's working on the old box to make it ready for the secret customer, who you claim has a different, previously unknown box. Sure! That makes perfect sense. -- *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com *To:* John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Sunday, January 22, 2012 9:47 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. Rossi said that there were 2 containers. Since the definite article the did not specify each one, he said yes! Meaning, the one which was not shown in the videos was gone. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:The Rossi Paradox
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:21 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Motive is at the root of all rational crime. Without motive, crime is pathological and therefore the inconsequential act of a madman. In this riddle lies the horns of the Rossi paradox. So what is Rossi’s motive for his lies? What was the motive for Petroldragon lies? For thermo-electric device lies to DOD? Occam says money. Occam says most probable: fraud on early investors to make millions just like Steorn and many other have done. It doesn't have to be anything like the complicated web just woven.
Re: [Vo]:Greg Watson is VERY rude!
Eff: I don't need this kind of garbage from you, or anyone else on this list. The occasional worthwhile content of your semi-literate contributions isn't sufficient to justify digging through the offensive and repetitious attacks which constitute most of what you have to say. *plonk* On 12-01-22 09:42 AM, Eff Wivakeef wrote: Bollocks!
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
New theory, compatible with a grey world (neither white nor black) : Rossi never had a client. he is passionate, desperate to obtain support and fame. he does not do that for cash, burning much, but for fame. He is developing his e-cat, but he have stability and industrialization problems (like with TE elements). He know it can work because for some time he get good results, but not long because of sloppy driving. for some demo he is simply sloppy and exagerating, for some the e-cat is broken or weaker than expected and he fraud a little or much, but he feel honest because it can work... it is white lies for him. he is lying also because defkalion and others frighten him. after the success/failure demo of 1/2MW he decide to take the bull by the horn, maybe because of advices (the ex-military? or is it an invention). he call NI, to make it better he have no client, and the only one who knows that it works are colleagues, Defkalion and NI... they don't denounce him, because they know it will work more or less, it is not a scam, it is just business lie, and it is not their business, nobody get hurts. defkalion have seen that it was a good idea but managed badly. they decide to rebuild the same kind of device, based on scientific papers they have gathered, and hints by what they have seen... like any serious business they say no comment, wait for press announce. they have no visible ego, just investors, deadlines, workers, business plan, regulators to please, patent to write, clients to calm. buzz is not so important and they do the minimum not to frighten the future clients and the community. NI because they make a good job, give simple advice, call experts friends, have seen it working and the buzz get into the company bottom-up. the 13 1MW are also lies... just to pretend success. he is simply working on stabilizing the big-cat, and dreaming (like me) of how to design the e-kitten... meanwhile Defkalion is tuning his greek-cat and he is afraid of being put out of the race. this behavior is coherent with the thermoelectric story, as told by his opponents... optimistic, betting all on a small lab success, lying, making failures disappear by frauds, trying to make it desperately works despite problems... also coherent with his petroldragon story... optimistic, forgetting problems, trying to escape the problems and the banckruptcy by small frauds... clearly he is not scamming to make cash, he is too famous, too old, and too married to do a scam and flee in Madagascar. however he is too old to wait for another chance to be the hero of the planet... 2 failures in 40 years, the 3rd is his last chance. * A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse* 2012/1/22 Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com ... Rossi installed the other box at the customer's site, he even supervise it. Probably he also tested the other box there.
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 6:14 AM, John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.comwrote: As for Focardi and Levi, I notice that they never corrected any of the various lies about the University of Bologna actually performing independent testing of the E-Cat. If they didn't bother correcting that, I don't see why they would correct this. The really annoying thing about Levi's performance in Rossi's fiasco is that he supposedly performed the only test (Feb 2011 with liquid coolant) which would have been valid except that it wasn't run with a blank and calibration. And Levi would not defend the test when interviewed, he would not provide the raw data and calculations, and worst and most damning of all, he would not repeat it in public with proper controls and data recording. That would have been easy and cheap and safe for Rossi IP and Levi would not press Rossi to let him perform it. He would not discuss this failure with reporters. Unconscionable, IMHO.
Re: [Vo]:Greg Watson is VERY rude!
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.comwrote: ** Eff: I don't need this kind of garbage from you, or anyone else on this list. The occasional worthwhile content of your semi-literate contributions isn't sufficient to justify digging through the offensive and repetitious attacks which constitute most of what you have to say. *plonk* Well, while it may be a bit much, I think exposure of Greg Watson/Aussie Guy is more than warranted by the extravagant and now clearly likely to be imaginary claims he made on this forum. If this is the sort of person Rossi entrusts with his time, talks, promises of custom work and detailed specifications, we should know about it.
Re: [Vo]:Greg Watson is VERY rude!
Stiff shit dude! What I find VERY OFFENSIVE is the idiots on this board who are supporting the ongoing Ecat SCAM by saying that because we can't prove that the Ecat doesn't work then we should allow him to carry on with business as usual. You don't have to read my crap if you don't want to. Talking of crap... Heer's GREGGY Gen 3 SMOT KITS now available10-Mar-11 01:56 am SMOT - Mark III by Greg Watson Texts, schemes, and test report by Greg Watson In all SMOT ramps developed to date, the magnet arrays were built first and then the ramp was adjusted to best suit the arrays magnetic fields. While this approach has worked for many, I believe it is wrong and has been the major source of many SMOT failures for others. In the development of the SMOT Mk3 single circular ramp, the ramp was designed first and THEN the necessary magnetic field profiles were adjusted to the ramp and the job it was required to do. This approach, which is probably the correct way to go, has resulted in a relative simple to build and adjust circular ramp. The SMOT Mk2 single circular ramp is formed of flexible N gauge model railway track. The track is secured to a strong and stable circular ramp with a 8mm overall lift and an average length of 521.5mm. The ramp has an inside diameter of 150mm and an outside diameter of 182mm and an average diameter of 166mm. The ramp is 16mm wide, which is the width of the 16mm wide sleepers of the N gauge track. The ramp has a lift of 1.53mm per 100mm of track. This is a very gentle ramp slope in comparison to the SMOT Mk1 Smot Mk2 ramps. The steel ball is 12.5mm in diameter and is Chrome plated. Unlike the SMOT Mk1 SMOT Mk2 ramps where the ramp and the magnet arrays were parallel, the SMOT Mk3 magnet arrays are not. The SMOT Mk3 circular magnetic arrays have a 14mm differential between the bottom and top of the ramp. At the bottom, the centre line of the magnetic arrays are 2mm below the centre line of the steel ball and at the top, the centre line of the magnetic arrays are 4mm above the centre line of the steel ball. The magnetic arrays are not linear and for most of the array length, their centre line is 3mm above the steel ball's centre line. This above position assists the steel ball's rotation as it produces more attractive force on the top of the ball than the bottom. It also greatly reduces noise generating as there is less slip between the ball and the track. The best results to date have been about 5 minutes of operation before the ball gets stuck at the exit point (either doesn't drop or gets sucked side ways). The average Rollaround time is just over 1 minute to date. The ball will climb the ramp from most starting points (95%) on the circular ramps 521.5mm average length, but I start the Ball Rolling by gently pushing the ball off the top of the ramp. I have built 2 SMOT Mk3 ramps to date. I am continuing the development of the 2nd unit to increase the stability of its operational characteristics and improve it Rollaround performance. I have found that exit guides (reducing the exit width to 13mm) help to reduce Side Sticks, but I am still testing methods to eliminate exit hangs by experimenting with different exit radius curves. The exit is velocity sensitive as most SMOT builders know only too well. The original SMOT Mk3 units had sharp 90 deg top exits and 5mm bottom recovery curves like the SMOT Mk2 ramps. Just to repeat by earlier statement on my SMOT Mk2 kits. ALL SMOT Mk2 kit purchasers will receive a SMOT Mk3 single circular ramp at No Extra Charge. When the SMOT Mk3 single circular ramp is stable and easy to manufacture, I will start shipping SMOT Mk3 kits in place of SMOT Mk2 kits Please send MUNNY asap Sales of SunPubes seem to be a bit slow at the moment.
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:06 AM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.comwrote: this behavior is coherent with the thermoelectric story, as told by his opponents... optimistic, betting all on a small lab success, lying, making failures disappear by frauds, trying to make it desperately works despite problems... I have looked fairly intensively for any evidence that Rossi **ever** had a working device that he showed to DOD and was properly tested by U of NH or any other U and I could not find it. I think it was all entirely a lie from the start. Additional evidence for that hypothesis is that if it were real, it could have been duplicated by Rossi using the same methods he originally used to make the device, perhaps with additional help and support from DOD which would have been easy to get at the time. The other issue about this mess is why Rossi submitted the non-working samples to start with. Didn't he ever test them? Was he so incompetent or negligent that he didn't know the devices didn't work when they were in fact more than 2 orders of magnitude (100X) off the target? I think the TE devices were deliberate fraud not unlike what the E-cat is likely to end up being and for the same motive: money up front and excuses later. I am surprised, Alain, that you overlook those facts. I think the same reasoning applies in kind to Petroldragon but it's much more complex an affair and I have not studied that. I did spend a bit of time with the TE device story. It's damning in my opinion. Both for DOD which did not do due diligence and of course for Rossi who almost certainly defrauded them. Of course if someone can point me to data from a reputable and credible source showing that those TE device samples did what Rossi said, then the whole thing is a big mystery: why have those methods not been pursued since the 2004 fiasco?
Re: [Vo]:University testing of the E-cat question asked on Rossi blog
Hotmail jth...@hotmail.com wrote: People is that room, including Jed, verified that there was no input power to the heating element. . . No, I wasn't there. However people who were there did this. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Russian Nuclear Kurchatov Lectures in St. Petersburg Will Include LENR
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:13 AM, Robert Leguillon robert.leguil...@hotmail.com wrote: Even if he doesn't have a secret catalyst that enhances his reaction, he may inadvertently become the catalyst that brings LENR into the mainstream... I disagree with that reasoning. If Rossi is a fraud, legitimate but subtle claims of LENR will be even more ignored by the public and by funding sources than they already were. Probably with a comment of the nature of that's probably another Rossi! On the other hand, any *valid* robust claim can easily be tested independently and everyone will be interested if it is verified, just as they were (and many still are) in Rossi. Rossi got considerable main line press such as Forbes and various network news mentions even though he's an obvious flake. Imagine the coverage if someone ever really has robust LENR power and can prove it properly.It won't be because of Rossi that they get coverage but in spite of him.
Re: [Vo]:University testing of the E-cat question asked on Rossi blog
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Hotmail jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Shaun, you are in error. I have examined your pictures and like Mary, I do not see the significance of the goop you are referring to. I didn't say I didn't see the significance-- I do. I am not that good at pattern recognition. I was asking for assistance in interpreting the pattern that suggests where the thermocouple head was and the trail of its withdrawal. I think I see it better now but not as well as Shaun does. I have little doubt that the thermocouple placement in the October 6 experiment was a calculated deception on the part of Rossi. Probably, it was one of several, including one inside the large E-cat, which created an illusion of excess power. Why else would Rossi change the design with almost no increase in power output from a device ten times or more the size of the original? Levi's notoriously undocumented and unrepeated experiment provided probably the largest power density surge of any E-cat ever claimed -130 kW, if you believe it, in a core about the size of a tennis ball. It's been downhill in power density every since. That's Rossi-progress, I guess.
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
Perhaps. I don't see what this theory offers that makes it more likely than Rossi is a con man. Since you mention his TE... In the Army report, it says that Rossi returned to Italy to continue working on it. What that report doesn't say is that Rossi had every intention of returning to the U.S. after a vacation in Italy (he had a return ticket already purchased), but that he was arrested for bankruptcy fraud. He was then convicted and sentenced to eight years in prison. So, that's why he didn't return to finish his work on the TE. June 1, 2000: Rossi arrested as a fugitive. http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ensl=tl=enu=http%3A%2F%2Farchiviostorico.corriere.it%2F2000%2Fgiugno%2F01%2Fcella_mago_del_petrolio__co_2_000601164.shtml October 20, 2000: Rossi convicted to 8 years in prison. http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ensl=tl=enu=http%3A%2F%2Farchiviostorico.corriere.it%2F2000%2Fottobre%2F20%2FCondannato_otto_anni_mago_del_co_2_0010202627.shtml This was the last of many convictions reported in the local newspapers, and I was unable to find any signs that he was acquitted of this. (I did find newspaper reports that he was acquitted of the toxic waste dump charges, but not of the many financial fraud convictions throughout the 1990s). It would be interesting to find the first reference to Rossi from the 2000s. That would set an upper limit on how long he actually spent in prison. I know we're supposed to ignore Rossi's criminal background, but in this case it helps explain why Rossi wasn't around to continue his TE work. From: Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. New theory, compatible with a grey world (neither white nor black) : Rossi never had a client. he is passionate, desperate to obtain support and fame. he does not do that for cash, burning much, but for fame. He is developing his e-cat, but he have stability and industrialization problems (like with TE elements). He know it can work because for some time he get good results, but not long because of sloppy driving. for some demo he is simply sloppy and exagerating, for some the e-cat is broken or weaker than expected and he fraud a little or much, but he feel honest because it can work... it is white lies for him. he is lying also because defkalion and others frighten him. after the success/failure demo of 1/2MW he decide to take the bull by the horn, maybe because of advices (the ex-military? or is it an invention). he call NI, to make it better he have no client, and the only one who knows that it works are colleagues, Defkalion and NI... they don't denounce him, because they know it will work more or less, it is not a scam, it is just business lie, and it is not their business, nobody get hurts. defkalion have seen that it was a good idea but managed badly. they decide to rebuild the same kind of device, based on scientific papers they have gathered, and hints by what they have seen... like any serious business they say no comment, wait for press announce. they have no visible ego, just investors, deadlines, workers, business plan, regulators to please, patent to write, clients to calm. buzz is not so important and they do the minimum not to frighten the future clients and the community. NI because they make a good job, give simple advice, call experts friends, have seen it working and the buzz get into the company bottom-up. the 13 1MW are also lies... just to pretend success. he is simply working on stabilizing the big-cat, and dreaming (like me) of how to design the e-kitten... meanwhile Defkalion is tuning his greek-cat and he is afraid of being put out of the race. this behavior is coherent with the thermoelectric story, as told by his opponents... optimistic, betting all on a small lab success, lying, making failures disappear by frauds, trying to make it desperately works despite problems... also coherent with his petroldragon story... optimistic, forgetting problems, trying to escape the problems and the banckruptcy by small frauds... clearly he is not scamming to make cash, he is too famous, too old, and too married to do a scam and flee in Madagascar. however he is too old to wait for another chance to be the hero of the planet... 2 failures in 40 years, the 3rd is his last chance. A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse 2012/1/22 Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com ... Rossi installed the other box at the customer's site, he even supervise it. Probably he also tested the other box there.
Re: [Vo]:Greg Watson is VERY rude!
If Rossi's relationship with Sterling D. Allan didn't make this point, I don't know what could! For what it's worth, here's a link to an article by Allan, touting the wonderful Tilley perpetual motion electric car! http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Tilley/tilley_article.pdf From: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Greg Watson is VERY rude! Well, while it may be a bit much, I think exposure of Greg Watson/Aussie Guy is more than warranted by the extravagant and now clearly likely to be imaginary claims he made on this forum. If this is the sort of person Rossi entrusts with his time, talks, promises of custom work and detailed specifications, we should know about it.
[Vo]:More crap from Aussi Guy
User #460717 70 posts Aussie-Guy I'm new here, please be nice 1.6 hour interview with Andrea Rossi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP5cG-36Bag http://whrl.pl/Rc3wYg herring | anchor Reply to this post | Send whim posted 2012-Jan-15, 4:59 pm User #460717 70 posts Aussie-Guy I'm new here, please be nice My take of the interview: === 10 kW home E-Cat is the size of a portable computer. Single reactor is the size of a packet of cigarettes. Rossi calls the recharges “Energy Sticks”, fits with the ball point pen like refill statement. Replacement is simple and can be done by anyone. No H2 canisters used. Reactor stores and recycles the H2. Only uses picograms of H2. Reactor control is via regulation of operational heat point. Extremely stable operation at 120 deg C. Above that temperature, work is it progress. Fuel lasts 4,320 operational hours (180 days at 24 hours a day). E-Cat will signal when refill is needed. Customer can purchase several refills and keep them in stock. Cost of the refill to the customer will be $10 plus installation if needed. Refills and E-Cats will be available via internet sales. Home units will run in self sustain mode. 512 keV 180 deg Gammas have been detected. Heating is via low energy Gammas hitting the lead shielding. 1st 1 MW plant is in modification. Should be operation in 1 – 2 months. 12 additional 1 MW plants are being built. 1 additional 1 MW plant has been sold to another customer. UL certification of the home E-Cat is in process. 2.7 to 2.9 kWs needed for 1 hour to start the home 10 kW E-Cat. Rossi claims the RFG helps the Coulomb barrier work with the reaction and not against it. First E-Cat factory is in Florida. Rossi is going to Massachusetts to further discuss building another E-Cat plant there. Home E-Cat production will start in the US fall. Sales will start in the US winter. Rossi is not interested in family investors as the business is still risky. Large hedge funds are welcome but only with a small % investment. Does plan to go public. Home E-Cat has a 30 year expected life. Customer price between $400 to $500 for a home E-Cat 10 kW thermal unit. Rossi is onto a winner here. Look at the earlier copper pipe Door Knob style reactor. It produced in the 10 to 20 kW range, same as the home E-Cat. Put it in a case, a few fittings for the fluid, small mirco for control, small transformerless power supply, wraparound heater, RFG coil, a screw in “Energy Stick” with the Ni power and like Bob’s your uncle, you have a home E-Cat. Cost when making 1 mil per year? Maybe $100 tops. He needs to give WalMart and other retailer around 100% markup, so out the factory door at $200 to $250 for a $400 to $500 retail. Nice profit there for Rossi and the retailer. VERY DOABLE. Can see there will be addons, like external heat exchangers and circulation pumps with fans for space heating, inside water tank heat exchangers for hot water, etc. Doubt this is a whole system price, more like a price for the E-Cat thermal unit. Well done to Andrea Rossi and the E-Cat team. http://whrl.pl/Rc3xFn herring | anchor Reply to this post | Send whim posted 2012-Jan-15, 8:35 pm edited soon afterwards User #460717 70 posts Aussie-Guy I'm new here, please be nice Cameron writes... A few months ago there was no detectable radiation, now the heat is supposedly generated by gamma rays. What Rossi claimed and others measured was there were no external radiations above background levels outside the 2 cm thick lead shielding. Rossi has said there are low energy gammas produced inside the reactor core but they do not pass thought the 2 cm thick lead shielding. Instead they turn into heat. Where did you think the excess heat comes from if not low energy gammas that can be stopped by 2 cm of lead and turned into heat? If the coolant stops, the electronics will detect this and try to toddle down the reactor. If that fails, the Ni powder will melt and the reactor will stop. You will then need to replace the Energy Stick and fix the coolant pump. There are only picograms of H2 used. There is no H2 storage as such. You can buy a 10 kW kero heater in WalMart, why not a 10 kW E-Cat? Rossi has side they are doing UL certification of the home E-Cat. I'm sure he knows he needs IEC certification for the rest of the world. UL can do that as well and probably at the same time. Not to worry, the home E-Cat can only do 120 deg C steam, so no E-Cat electricity generators yet. The Oz solar industry can stop worrying, at least for 12 months. http://whrl.pl/Rc3yaa herring | anchor Reply to this post | Send whim posted 2012-Jan-15, 11:02 pm edited soon afterwards User #460717 70 posts Aussie-Guy I'm new here, please be nice Abalone writes... Sounds high tech and foolproof to me, a Fukushima in every kitchen Expect there is no radioactive material inside the reactor. Just Nickel powder that melts into liquid Nickel if the reactor gets too hot, When that happens the LENR
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:35 AM, John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.comwrote: Perhaps. I don't see what this theory offers that makes it more likely than Rossi is a con man. It offers that there is no evidence Rossi ever showed a working device. No evidence of proper tests anywhere-- EVER. Yet he told DOD they had been tested by the University of New Hampshire. That's how he got the contract. That makes him a lying con man if no such tests occurred. I wonder if his original proposal still exists anywhere we could see it?
[Vo]:Right Sizing Nickel Particles
In physics, Planck's law describes the amount of energy emitted by a black body in radiation of a certain wavelength (i.e. the spectral radiance of a black body). The law is named after Max Planck, who originally proposed it in 1900. The law was the first to accurately describe black body radiation, and resolved the ultraviolet catastrophe. It is a pioneer result of modern physics and quantum theory. For a given black body temperature, the wavelength at the peak of the Planck curve is called maximum lambda. This value gives a fell for the minimum relative size that an radiating object must be to optimally support photons associated with a give temperature. Like and antenna, a particle of nickel will best support the photons at a given temperature if the particle size is the adjusted to the ideal size. For a temperature of 700k or about 400C, the Lambda(max) must be 4.14 microns. This is why Rossi uses very large micro sized nickel particles in his reactor. Nano sized particles will not properly support the ideal photon wavelength needed to force protons into quantum mechanical coherence. Rossi undoubtedly found this optimal size through trial and error but science is easier. For a Planck function Infrared Radiance Calculator see the following: https://www.sensiac.org/external/resources/calculators/infrared_radiance_calculator.jsf%3bjsessionid=D08873244D6904EE654DBCDF0391F95E
Re: [Vo]:The Rossi Paradox
what about fame and sex. for Rossi fame seems his strongest motive. 2012/1/22 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com What was the motive...
Re: [Vo]:University testing of the E-cat question asked on Rossi blog
Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com wrote: Show me one test where Rossi did not run the event and truly allowed independent testers (NOT merely invited observers) to arrange, fit out and do the tests the way they determined they needed to be done? I can't. The people who have done these tests do not want me to upload the results to LENR-CANR.org. They have discussed them at various times. Mike McKubre showed a small sample of data from one group, in his slides here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/McKubreMCHwhathappen.pdf I have heard from 2 other groups that tested independently. As I noted here in December, I also heard from a group visiting Defkalion, where they have independently replicated. Perhaps you do not believe me, or you do not believe my sources. In that case, the conversation has no place to go. There is nothing more to be said. Take what I say or leave it. As far as I know this has NEVER been done. Rossi was always in control. As far as you know, yes, but I know somewhat more than you do. If you have data that is truly independent, why has it not been published? Because the people who revealed it to me asked me not to publish it. They want to keep it secret for reasons relating to business, money, and the politics of cold fusion. Many, many cold fusion results have been kept secret over the years. Mainly because people who reveal positive results are likely to have their lives and careers destroyed. Their reputations are dragged through the mud; members of Congress demand their tax returns; they are fired or reassigned to menial jobs; and they are called lunatics and criminals in the mass media. Those are good reasons for not going public with results! You may not believe my sources, but you can easily verify that people who publish positive results are torn to shreds. There are many examples in the mass media and in the archives at LENR-CANR.org. People such as Robert Park who do this go around bragging about it. This is not secret suppression; it is bold and public. These people sincerely believe they are combating fraud and lunacy, and preserving the Honor of Science, so they have no reason to hide their activities. (Park is only one of many. I cite him because he is well known. There are dozens of others, such as Gai, who well known to everyone in this field.) Probably because it does not exist or the people that did the tests do not want to go public, which if that is the reason is an even bigger worry. They definitely do not want to go public, as I have said many times. It is nothing to worry about. As I said, this has often happened in cold fusion. Either way there is NO independent data on any Ecat that I can find. That is correct. You can't find the data, because the people who do the tests do not want the world to know what they are up to. I know why they are keeping a low profile. I know who is trying to stop them. I know what will happen to them if they go public prematurely. I would do the same thing if I were in their shoes. Probably, you would too, assuming you have a gram of common sense and you want to keep your job. Only data from Rossi orchestrated demonstrations. That is incorrect, as I said. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
HOLY CRAP! You want to believe in this asshole? What the bleep is wrong with you guys? CLAIMED TO HAVE THE FORMULA TO TURN WASTE INTO BLACK GOLD, ONLY MANAGED TO CAUSE AN ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTER Sentenced to eight years' magician of oil Andrea Rossi is expensive to the bankruptcy of the refinery Lacchiarella turned into a warehouse of toxic sewage tanks of Omar's 57 000 tons of toxic clean-up has cost more than thirty billion Claimed to have the formula to turn waste into black gold, only managed to cause an environmental disaster was sentenced to eight years' magician of oil is expensive to Andrea Rossi's bankruptcy refinery Lacchiarella turned into a warehouse of toxic sewage ONLY FIRMAMILANO - The 'last miracle Andrea Rossi, the self-styled inventor of the formula to turn toxic waste into fuel oil, was on the accounts of Omar in Lacchiarella, the' ex-refinery Petrol detected by the Dragon in which the 'entrepreneur had stored 57 000 tons of toxic sludge. The companies had paid tens of billions to get rid of waste, but the bankruptcy judge appointed after the collapse of Omar, in 'August' 95, he had found not one penny of assets. Only debts. Yesterday, for 'alchemist, came the day of reckoning: a sentence of 8 years in prison for fraudulent bankruptcy, the fine imposed by the court on summary of' preliminary hearing, Henry Tranfa. The 'survey initiated by the prosecutor Marco Maria Maiga had revealed a systematic process of bleeding the company's assets by Rossi by withdrawals from the accounts of the company for personal expenses (35 million pr agencies for the care of his image, 50 million for the mother-in-law), the cosmetics on the financial statements to hide losses. Even the 'purchase of the stake in the company, Great Service, an' other waste disposal company Pianfei (CN), was made for an amount disproportionate to the actual value. The masterpiece, however, was the sale of 'Lacchiarella area just two months before the bankruptcy decision of Omar: estimated 5 billion was transferred to the Trust Company Ltd. for 476 million of Cremona. All in bills of exchange, moreover, never paid. The prosecutor had also indicated Omar as a conduit for conducting illegal activities (Rossi is also investigated in Monza and Varese for tax and financial crimes as a holder of other group companies Petrol Dragon), in order to divert huge profits to 'foreign Already in '94, in fact, the capital of Omar was headed to London-based company controlled by Smith and Liechtenstein. The 'former magician of oil, arrested in Rome in late May after a year of hiding in the U.S., must pay 800 million immediately, and will be a civil case to establish the reimbursement to the Department of' Environment, the Region and the Municipality of Lacchiarella of over 30 billion disbursed to dispose of the Sea of poisons never become oil.Marco Castoldi NOTEXT Marco Castoldi Page 48 (October 20, 2000) - BBC
RE: [Vo]:Russian Nuclear Kurchatov Lectures in St. Petersburg Will Include LENR
Oh no, I think that you misunderstand me. I think that Rossi's claims, even if they're bollocks, got people talking about LENR again. It was Rossi's claims that got Piantelli to blow the dust off of his equipment and reevaluate. He was a catalyst for studying Ni-H. In no manner am I trying to supplant all of the work done by Piantelli, Arata, and Mills; I'm just saying that a lot of important whispers in the shadows grew louder, more urgent, and have come into the light. If Rossi doesn't cause catastrophic damage to the field, he may just be the catalyst that drives its funding. As I read more and more news articles, authors seem capable of separating Rossi from the science - which is great news! Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:25:31 -0800 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Russian Nuclear Kurchatov Lectures in St. Petersburg Will Include LENR From: maryyu...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:13 AM, Robert Leguillon robert.leguil...@hotmail.com wrote: Even if he doesn't have a secret catalyst that enhances his reaction, he may inadvertently become the catalyst that brings LENR into the mainstream... I disagree with that reasoning. If Rossi is a fraud, legitimate but subtle claims of LENR will be even more ignored by the public and by funding sources than they already were. Probably with a comment of the nature of that's probably another Rossi! On the other hand, any *valid* robust claim can easily be tested independently and everyone will be interested if it is verified, just as they were (and many still are) in Rossi. Rossi got considerable main line press such as Forbes and various network news mentions even though he's an obvious flake. Imagine the coverage if someone ever really has robust LENR power and can prove it properly.It won't be because of Rossi that they get coverage but in spite of him.
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
I was going to suggest that you were mistaken, since the DOD report states that a small-scale model was tested for 7 days at the University of New Hampshire. However, in re-reading it, I see that it was Rossi who apparently conducted the test. Since he lied about conducting E-Cat tests at the University of Bologna, I guess it's just a reasonable to assume that he lied about conducting TE tests at the University of New Hampshire! From: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com To: John Milstone vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage. On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:35 AM, John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com wrote: Perhaps. I don't see what this theory offers that makes it more likely than Rossi is a con man. It offers that there is no evidence Rossi ever showed a working device. No evidence of proper tests anywhere-- EVER. Yet he told DOD they had been tested by the University of New Hampshire. That's how he got the contract. That makes him a lying con man if no such tests occurred. I wonder if his original proposal still exists anywhere we could see it?
Re: [Vo]:The Rossi Paradox
I'll take one of each, please! From: Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Rossi Paradox what about fame and sex.
[Vo]:Rumors, lies and big lies
Vorticians, My bad. I came under a fair amount of criticism for reporting a rumor that lead to both of the twin comedic episodes here last week - of 1) the outing of Greg Watson, masquerading as AussiGuy, and 2) the BBB not leaving Bologna (the big lie). The precise rumor turned out to be false - since the BBB could never have been returned by the customer if it never left the spot where it was demonstrated in October. My apology for that, but luckily for almost all of us - the results of the rumor turned out to be very illuminating - and advanced our knowledge of the Rossi economic scam significantly, and probably nipped the AussiGuy secondary scam in the bud. In retrospect, I have no regrets for that rumor being false, especially since the source was good and had proved out several times before. Well, there is the smaller regret is that a few new voices of negativity have landed here, to contribute nothing but repetitious tripe. The source in question had accurately pegged a paper company named: Ampenergo, a startup tied to LTI, as being the US licensee. This was many weeks before it was known publicly or reported elsewhere. I know a lot about LTI which is not reported yet. That rumor was correct, and the evidence of this is in the archives - and it was reported to Vo back when a noted commentator ... cough, cough ... was saying that Rossi had told him that the licensee was an important company a Fortune 500 Company, and yes, he believed that Rossi was the greatest inventor since Edison :-) Anyway, that BBB-return rumor of last week - led to Akira looking closely at a recent interview with AR showing the BBB in its usual resting place - like a cold mausoleum, and then following that revelation - a consensus emerged here on Vortex that it had never moved, leading to direct question to the horse's mouth... and then, ta-da, the payoff - Rossi getting caught in yet another massive lie, the BBB being gone etc. and the likelihood that the only customer is the aforementioned Ampenergo, a hollow startup which has no facilities, not known capital, no experts or engineering staff: in short -a paper tiger. This new information so inflamed AussiGuy, who, unbeknownst to us at time, had his own second-tier MLM scam in operation, that he went into a silly hissy-fit tirade against Rossi and many others of us - one that brought into question his own motives- and more importantly his own identity. When I raised the issue of his hidden identity following his ridiculous outburst - that is when Keef who had apparently been waiting in the wings for such an opportunity, stepped in to suggest that the alias AussiGuy was really a well-known scammer that we all on vortex had prior experience with. ERGO and thanks to blind luck, the aftermath of this false rumor (of the BBB being returned), and the revelation that it never left - is extremely fortunate for all concerned except GOW and AR. Instead of two wrongs not making a right it looks like one wrong made two rights. Go figure. Best of all - this puts AR in the position of seeing 90% of his former support going out the door, and essentially forces his hand to do a real test! He has no large amount of money left, and if he does not demonstrate something soon, he is essentially dead in the water since DGT will show and tell soon. My prediction is that AR will finally understand the sorry state that his reputation has sunk to, from the high in October to the pits in January, and that he will be forced to do the real test, with real independent scientists. My second prediction is that he will pass the real test, almost with flying colors but only for 8-12 hours, and then the E-Cat will go into quiescence mode, as always happens. But the scientists observing this will be absolutely blown away by hours of infinite COP. This should hopefully send the me-too skeptics who have come out of the woodwork this week, scurrying back to find another mouse hole (namely Milstone and company). Hopefully Keef will duck-out as well, since the only thing he seems to have to offer now is Greg's travel plans and penchant for First Class. Maybe that is too much to ask for. Is fate ever that benevolent? Jones attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [Vo]:The Rossi Paradox
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:44 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: what about fame and sex. for Rossi fame seems his strongest motive. Have you seen his wife? I believe she is also a Juris Doctor. T
Re: [Vo]:The 1MW container is not from old footage.
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:49 AM, John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.comwrote: I was going to suggest that you were mistaken, since the DOD report states that a small-scale model was tested for 7 days at the University of New Hampshire. However, in re-reading it, I see that it was Rossi who apparently conducted the test. Since he lied about conducting E-Cat tests at the University of Bologna, I guess it's just a reasonable to assume that he lied about conducting TE tests at the University of New Hampshire! Yes. I looked for evidence that those tests existed. They were, for example, NOT referenced in the extensive bibliography of the DOD writeup of their measurements on Rossi's failed devices. Why not? The parallel with the claims of E-cat testing at U of B is irresistible (to me, anyway). I'd love to see Rossi's original proposal to DOD but I do not know if that is available. And it's not worth a whole lot of work. Rossi's track record as a respecter of truth is already well established and it's dismal.
Re: [Vo]:Rumors, lies and big lies
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Vorticians, My bad. I came under a fair amount of criticism for reporting a rumor that lead to both of the twin comedic episodes here last week - of 1) the outing of Greg Watson, masquerading as AussiGuy, and 2) the BBB not leaving Bologna (the big lie). Unfair critique-- it was an excellent job! My prediction is that AR will finally understand the sorry state that his reputation has sunk to, from the high in October to the pits in January, and that he will be forced to do the real test, with real independent scientists. If he does not, will you raise your estimate of the probability that it's all a scam? And how long are you willing to wait for anything new and persuasive or compelling from Rossi? Or Defkalion? Or Jed Rothwell, LOL? My second prediction is that he will pass the real test, almost with flying colors but only for 8-12 hours, and then the E-Cat will go into quiescence mode, as always happens. But the scientists observing this will be absolutely blown away by hours of infinite COP. I hope you're right but I really doubt it. If it turns out that way, it will probably be only an engineering and development issue requiring some research. But I am predicting the test will never happen for obvious reasons. Maybe Rossi will do another contrived and deceptive test under his total control or another anonymous test but I doubt that he will try those silly gambits again.
Re: [Vo]:Rumors, lies and big lies
Wow! What blind faith. It really doesn't occur to you that the reason for all the fraud by Rossi (and pals) is because he don't have anything real. I'll make a counter prediction: Rossi will *NEVER* allow a truly independent test of his gadget by a reputable organization. He will *NEVER* be able to produce a credible customer who will confirm that they have a working gadget (although he may try to pass of a shill company, freshly created, and probably sharing the same rental office that his company and Ampenergo are sharing). The nice thing from your point of view is that if I'm wrong, we'll all know it soon (within months). If you're wrong, it could drag out for years, as most of the other free energy scams have don. Have a nice day. From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 12:58 PM Subject: [Vo]:Rumors, lies and big lies My second prediction is that he will pass the real test, almost with flying colors but only for 8-12 hours, and then the E-Cat will go into quiescence mode, as always happens. But the scientists observing this will be absolutely blown away by hours of infinite COP. This should hopefully send the me-too skeptics who have come out of the woodwork this week, scurrying back to find another mouse hole (namely Milstone and company). Hopefully Keef will duck-out as well, since the only thing he seems to have to offer now is Greg's travel plans and penchant for First Class. Maybe that is too much to ask for. Is fate ever that benevolent? Jones
[Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
I would like to quote the founding policies of this discussion group, written by Bill Beaty: http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. Pathological Skepticism is banned (see the link.) The tone here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! See also: http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html Many people who have shown up here lately seem to be unaware of these rules, or they are unwilling to abide by them. They have been carrying out vendettas, writing insults, using off-color language, and calling other people here bad names. They do act according to academic decorum, which calls for a large measure of polite hypocrisy. Some degree of ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is inevitable. It is human nature. But there has been far too much lately. These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Axil Axil believes in Rossi. He just opened a thread about him, with ideas on how the powder was chosen.Please, pay attention. 2012/1/22 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com I would like to quote the founding policies of this discussion group, written by Bill Beaty: http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. Pathological Skepticism is banned (see the link.) The tone here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! See also: http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html Many people who have shown up here lately seem to be unaware of these rules, or they are unwilling to abide by them. They have been carrying out vendettas, writing insults, using off-color language, and calling other people here bad names. They do act according to academic decorum, which calls for a large measure of polite hypocrisy. Some degree of ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is inevitable. It is human nature. But there has been far too much lately. These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
I don't need to ridicule you Jed. You are already ridiculous. Having crazy ideas is fine, you are quite welcome to your crazy ideas. It is aiding and abetting scamsters that I object to. Have a wacky day Keef
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. Perhaps you could take a moment to explain how citing sources which can't be named, which supposedly make claims in support of Rossi, and which you claim told you they did independent tests but can't reveal materials, methods and results -- maybe you can explain how that constitutes a part of a technical discussion. If it isn't, why are you doing it?
[Vo]:Another lie from Rossi: 1MW plant was at bologna in the first day of november
Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqhXotcu5hsfeature=player_embedded You can see the 1MW plant. I've contacted the author: the video footage was taken in the first day of november Rossi said that the 1MW plat was gone before 30 October.
Re: [Vo]:Another lie from Rossi: 1MW plant was at bologna in the first day of november
*first days of November 2012/1/22 Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqhXotcu5hsfeature=player_embedded You can see the 1MW plant. I've contacted the author: the video footage was taken in the first day of november Rossi said that the 1MW plat was gone before 30 October.
Re: [Vo]:Rumors, lies and big lies
But you just explained, in another thread, that the box story is OK. You surely are crazy! 2012/1/22 John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com Wow! What blind faith. It really doesn't occur to you that the reason for all the fraud by Rossi (and pals) is because he don't have anything real. I'll make a counter prediction: Rossi will *NEVER* allow a truly independent test of his gadget by a reputable organization. He will *NEVER* be able to produce a credible customer who will confirm that they have a working gadget (although he may try to pass of a shill company, freshly created, and probably sharing the same rental office that his company and Ampenergo are sharing). The nice thing from your point of view is that if I'm wrong, we'll all know it soon (within months). If you're wrong, it could drag out for years, as most of the other free energy scams have don. Have a nice day. -- *From:* Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Sunday, January 22, 2012 12:58 PM *Subject:* [Vo]:Rumors, lies and big lies My second prediction is that he will pass the real test, almost with flying colors but only for 8-12 hours, and then the E-Cat will go into quiescence mode, as always happens. But the scientists observing this will be absolutely blown away by hours of infinite COP. This should hopefully send the me-too skeptics who have come out of the woodwork this week, scurrying back to find another mouse hole (namely Milstone and company). Hopefully Keef will duck-out as well, since the only thing he seems to have to offer now is Greg's travel plans and penchant for First Class. Maybe that is too much to ask for. Is fate ever that benevolent? Jones -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Rumors, lies and big lies
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: My bad. I came under a fair amount of criticism for reporting a rumor that lead to both of the twin comedic episodes here last week - of 1) the outing of Greg Watson, masquerading as AussiGuy . . . This is not yet proven. It seems somewhat unlikely to me that they are one and the same. I am doing a little checking. I will report back if I find anything, either way. It also seems unimportant. Who cares if they Watson is posting here? He should reveal his name and pay me back $100 but I don't see what difference it makes beyond that. My apology for that, but luckily for almost all of us - the results of the rumor turned out to be very illuminating - and advanced our knowledge of the Rossi economic scam significantly . . . I wish you tone down these assertions of yours about a scam. You have made several positive assertions about Rossi and other people's private business over the last year that were completely mistaken. An assertion about physics can be debated and compared to textbooks, data, and laws of physics. An assertion about Rossi's business can only be tested by knowing his private business, and he keeps that very private. No one knows what he is up to. You do not know. That rumor was correct, and the evidence of this is in the archives - and it was reported to Vo back when a noted commentator ... cough, cough ... was saying that Rossi had told him that the licensee was an important company a Fortune 500 Company, and yes, he believed that Rossi was the greatest inventor since Edison :-) I do not know who you are talking about. If is is me, I have repeatedly said I have no knowledge of Rossi's customer. I have also said I have no interest in poking around in Rossi's business. I could not care less how many customers Rossi has or does not have. I think he is the greatest inventor since Fleischmann and Pons, Arata and Mills. Not since Edison. . . . emerged here on Vortex that it had never moved, leading to direct question to the horse's mouth... and then, ta-da, the payoff - Rossi getting caught in yet another massive lie, the BBB being gone etc. . . . Rossi did not sound like someone getting caught. He was not hiding anything. He said, in a matter-of-fact way, the reactor is still sitting here. I have not been following Rossi's business, but people like Lewan who have been never thought he shipped the gadget. So what the heck is this big cover-up you refer to? It is like accusing me of covering up the fact that I don't like sushi. I never said I did. It of no importance to anyone whether I do or not. It is a trivial matter. The identity of Rossi's customer -- assuming there is one -- is of interest only to Rossi himself and to any stockholders he might have. Okay, I will grant, I am curious to know who it is, but I have no right to know, neither do you, and neither does anyone reading this forum. If the thing is late shipping that is no surprise. When Rossi earlier said he shipped it, he was either confused, or he was lying and playing mind games for some reason. He does that. Get used to it. Many people do that. It is unimportant. In short, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. . . . and the likelihood that the only customer is the aforementioned Ampenergo . . . So what if it is? Is there is some law against Rossi selling to Ampenergo? Do you have any reason to think this is the customer? And if it is, why is this any business of yours, and why are you reporting it here? This new information so inflamed AussiGuy, who, unbeknownst to us at time, had his own second-tier MLM scam in operation . . . Stop making loose accusations of fraud. Unless you have a police report or something like that, that kind of accusation is a rumor, or mere supposition. It is inappropriate here. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
This is not the first time you complain to Bill Beaty and nothing happens. Perhaps it is time for you(and me, btw) to move to another list or forum, given that the original guidelines are not followed? 2012/1/22 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com I would like to quote the founding policies of this discussion group, written by Bill Beaty: http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. Pathological Skepticism is banned (see the link.) The tone here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! See also: http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html Many people who have shown up here lately seem to be unaware of these rules, or they are unwilling to abide by them. They have been carrying out vendettas, writing insults, using off-color language, and calling other people here bad names. They do act according to academic decorum, which calls for a large measure of polite hypocrisy. Some degree of ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is inevitable. It is human nature. But there has been far too much lately. These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil believes in Rossi. He just opened a thread about him, with ideas on how the powder was chosen.Please, pay attention. I noticed some intemperate language from him. I ask him to stop it, that's all. NO SNEERING means NO SNEERING. Okay, we all do it from time to time, but it has gotten out of hand. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: This is not the first time you complain to Bill Beaty and nothing happens. He will probably act sooner or later. He is like me, a procrastinator. He rules with a light hand. Perhaps it is time for you(and me, btw) to move to another list or forum, given that the original guidelines are not followed? Give Bill a little time. These eruptions usually go away on their own, when noisy opponents get tired of repeating themselves. However, this spate of bad behavior has gone on for several weeks, and I sense it is getting worse. It was probably brought about by mass media coverage of Rossi. Rossi's flamboyant behavior contributes to it. Some coverage of Rossi's weird behavior and his roller-coaster business model is inevitable. Like the guy in the beer commercial, he is the most interesting man in the world. He is the life of parties he has never attended -- including this one, here at Vortex. I am not suggesting we should impose an iron-clad rule that only science can be discussed. But I think a line has been crossed when an Internet stalker who has it in for Greg Watson comes barging in and posts lunatic messages filled with harsh language. Let us have old fashioned decorum! Always be sincere, whether you mean it or not. (M. Flanders) - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
WTF? You call ME a stalker because I am fulfilling my promise to follow Watson everywhere on the net and expose his filthy scams. You call ME a lunatic for doing the same thing with Rossi. Well I don't give a rat's arse. I'm proud to be a lunatic Keef is a *ucking lunatic who has been stalking the owner of the company who designed and manufactures the suncubes that Zolar will distribute. Thanks for that. Don't mention it.You're welcome. You want fries with that? Woof, miow oom oom (mad cow)
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
A message from Mary Yugo caught my attention before falling into the trash. She wrote: Perhaps you could take a moment to explain how citing sources which can't be named, which supposedly make claims in support of Rossi, and which you claim told you they did independent tests but can't reveal materials, methods and results -- maybe you can explain how that constitutes a part of a technical discussion. If it isn't, why are you doing it? That is a reasonable question. I am doing it because many people here want to hear about these things. They enjoy it, and they ask me to say more. They understand that I am often unable to provide details because never reveal anything without permission. I am the opposite of Steve Krivit. If you do not enjoy what I write, I suggest you ignore it. If it bothers you a lot, please add my name to your kill file. The important point is, my messages do not violate any of the rules set forth by Beaty: NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. 'Pathological Skepticism' is banned (see the link.) . . . Those rules do not say anything about no discussion of unpublished results. Or no discussion of one screen from a presentation by Mike McKubre. It is regrettable that so much in cold fusion has be kept secret, or in a low profile. That is because of academic politics. It is entirely the fault of powerful opponents who have been trying for 23 years to stamp out the research, gut academic freedom, and destroy the lives of the researchers. You are probably not a powerful opponent. I doubt that you have made any phone calls to derail funding or prevent experiments from being published. But when you refuse to read anything about cold fusion, and when you plaster cynical, ignorant comments about cold fusion here and in the mass media response sections, you contribute to the toxic atmosphere. You and the other small-time opponents prolong the travesty. So, to some extent this is your fault. There is plenty of blame to go around. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
It is regrettable that so much in cold fusion has be kept secret, or in a low profile. That is because of academic politics. It is entirely the fault of powerful opponents who have been trying for 23 years to stamp out the research, gut academic freedom, and destroy the lives of the researchers RUBBISH!
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: There is plenty of blame to go around. There certainly is. And most should go to investigators who don't provide clear and unequivocal, independently replicated and properly controlled and calibrated studies using the best state of the art methodology. You've been asked again and again to provide a SINGLE credible paper which shows robust heat production for a long period without the introduction of Joule heating or fresh fuel, thus proving without a doubt a nuclear process. I have yet to see such a paper. You expect critics to believe that LENR is real because of large volumes of papers which are convoluted, often badly written and always needlessly complex. That won't help LENR research. A single properly conducted experiment with robust results and no question of deception would have convinced everyone about Rossi or Defkalion specifically and LENR in general long ago. We're still waiting for it while you say it happened but you can't say who, what and where. We're still waiting for it while you make excuses for obvious tangential responses and evasive posts by Rossi and Defkalion. That is not what they and you should do to make the field credible. You should attack them and not the critics. The critics are the only ones who make sense. A single good result in LENR could not possibly be suppressed. In this internet age, there is no way it could happen. Look at all the attention and acclaim given to Rossi and for what?
Re: [Vo]:University testing of the E-cat question asked on Rossi blog
On 12-01-22 04:24 AM, Shaun Taylor wrote: On 22/01/2012 6:57 PM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com mailto:shauntaylor...@gmail.com wrote: Rossi faked the 6 Oct data and fooled all the Experts that attended the demo. Some BIG names there. I see goop (probably silicon grease) on the brass fitting in the third image but I'm not sure what it tells us. The goop is where the bead of the thermocouple was placed. There is no other reason for anything like that material to be there other than to provide a good heat exchange between the brass fitting and the thermocouple head. OK, seems like a reasonable conclusion. But there's something about it which bothers me. The brass fitting in question is actually /farther/ from the manifold body than the stainless nut which Horace (and others) had been assuming was the location of the thermocouple. What's more, the fitting in question is sufficiently far from the manifold body that it's not at all clear to me, at least, how much heat would actually have wicked to the thermocouple from the steam inlet. But be that as it may, given that this evidence seems to place the thermocouple farther from the heat source than had been previously assumed, I don't see how it makes things any worse for that test than they already were. So, what did I miss? (And by the way, Horace wasn't shouted down. Say, rather, he was shouted AT and I'll go along with it, but some folks agreed, some disagreed, and some just listened, as usual.)
Re: [Vo]:Rumors, lies and big lies [OT]
A guy is driving around the back woods of Montana/// Bologna and he sees a sign in front of a broken down shanty-style house: 'Talking Dog For Sale 'He rings the bell and the owner appears and tells him the dog is in the backyard. The guy goes into the backyard and sees a nice looking Labrador retriever sitting there. 'You talk?' he asks. 'Yep,' the Lab replies. After the guy recovers from the shock of hearing a dog talk, he says 'So, what's your story?' The Lab looks up and says, 'Well, I discovered that I could talk when I was pretty young.. I wanted to help the government, so I told the CIA. In no time at all they had me jetting from country to country, sitting in rooms with spies and world leaders, because no one figured a dog would be eavesdropping.' 'I was one of their most valuable spies for eight years running... But the jetting around really tired me out, and I knew I wasn't getting any younger so I decided to settle down. I signed up for a job at the airport to do some undercover security, wandering near suspicious characters and listening in. I uncovered some incredible dealings and was awarded a batch of medals.' 'I got married, had a mess of puppies, and now I'm just retired.' The guy is amazed. He goes back in and asks the owner what he wants for the dog. 'Ten dollars,' the guy says. 'Ten dollars? This dog is amazing! Why on earth are you selling him so cheap?' 'Because he's a liar. He's never been out of the yard'
Re: [Vo]:University testing of the E-cat question asked on Rossi blog
On 12-01-22 02:45 AM, Shaun Taylor wrote: Horton saw through the 6 Oct data fraud and reported it. Did anyone here give Horton a High 5 Good Job Mate? NO. Now he appears to have gone away as no one listened to him. Horton mate, I agree with you. (a) It's Horace, not Horton (Horton was the one who heard a Who, Horace is the one in Alaska, please keep them straight). (b) Horace has a lot on his mind and bowed out for other reasons, as far as I can tell. I suspect he also finds analyzing something that turns out to be a fake to be a frustrating waste of time. It will not end there. The wangled web Rossi has attempted to weave, based on false data, is unravelling at a great rate of knots. Maybe. Maybe knot. My bet is we'll see nothing conclusive, positive or negative, in 2012, so make sure you've got a comfortable chair in which to wait for the denouement.
[Vo]:Mark Gibbs - Forbes- on LENR January 20th blog
Greetings Vortex-l, Here is the latest from Mark Gibbs. http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/01/20/cold-fusion-theory-or-fact/ Perhaps, when advertisements are placed in Forbes for LENR devices, then they will accept the notion...that LENR ..might... work. mgi...@gibbs.com ..a Colleridge quote: Like a painted ship..upon a painted ocean. Ron Kita, Chiralex
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Look at all the attention and acclaim given to Rossi and for what? To keep the scam going and ripoff more victims. Simple really. Why would anyone choose to believe the word of Rossi the convicted fraudster? Weird or what?
RE: [Vo]:Greg Watson living HIGH ON THE HOG (OINK)
Agreed jojo I dont mind hearing reasonable objections but this continous spewing of negative properganda is causing me to delete them as soon as I see their name . Shame really , because I think we need to hear both sides , just not their insecure emotions needing to belittle and mock people . Bullys and Dictators do this sort of thing . But the people are slowly culling them too Who is the moderator here anyway ? Pete From: jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Greg Watson living HIGH ON THE HOG (OINK) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 22:51:49 +0800 Eff, this forum is NOT your personal playground. You have stated your case, provided your proof and aired your concerns. Everyone has heard it and some disagree with you. It is time to stop repeating it and hijacking this excellent forum with your garbage. Please stop. BTW, I did preorder an E-Cat home unit. Jojo Jaro
Re: [Vo]:Rumors, lies and big lies [OT]
Thanks, the best joke I read for years! Peter On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: A guy is driving around the back woods of Montana/// Bologna and he sees a sign in front of a broken down shanty-style house: 'Talking Dog For Sale 'He rings the bell and the owner appears and tells him the dog is in the backyard. The guy goes into the backyard and sees a nice looking Labrador retriever sitting there. 'You talk?' he asks. 'Yep,' the Lab replies. After the guy recovers from the shock of hearing a dog talk, he says 'So, what's your story?' The Lab looks up and says, 'Well, I discovered that I could talk when I was pretty young.. I wanted to help the government, so I told the CIA. In no time at all they had me jetting from country to country, sitting in rooms with spies and world leaders, because no one figured a dog would be eavesdropping.' 'I was one of their most valuable spies for eight years running... But the jetting around really tired me out, and I knew I wasn't getting any younger so I decided to settle down. I signed up for a job at the airport to do some undercover security, wandering near suspicious characters and listening in. I uncovered some incredible dealings and was awarded a batch of medals.' 'I got married, had a mess of puppies, and now I'm just retired.' The guy is amazed. He goes back in and asks the owner what he wants for the dog. 'Ten dollars,' the guy says. 'Ten dollars? This dog is amazing! Why on earth are you selling him so cheap?' 'Because he's a liar. He's never been out of the yard' -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Mary, there are serious problems with Rossi's demonstrations that we are all aware of. It is apparent to me that he has a very difficult problem trying to maintain stability of the power output and I have been doing some interesting simulation that tends to support this claim. The October 6 test data shows a clear fingerprint of LENR heat production which I hope to explain soon. All of the other models that I have seen thus far do not respond in a manner that comes even close to explaining the anomaly. These models have been based upon energy storage and release from a large mass of material inside the smaller cube. A better explanation for the curve can be obtained by assuming that a large peak of excess thermal energy is released at the end of the drive cycle due to an inherently unstable thermal run away process that is quenched just before it becomes unstoppable. Dave -Original Message- From: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Jan 22, 2012 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: There is plenty of blame to go around. There certainly is. And most should go to investigators who don't provide clear and unequivocal, independently replicated and properly controlled and calibrated studies using the best state of the art methodology. You've been asked again and again to provide a SINGLE credible paper which shows robust heat production for a long period without the introduction of Joule heating or fresh fuel, thus proving without a doubt a nuclear process. I have yet to see such a paper. You expect critics to believe that LENR is real because of large volumes of papers which are convoluted, often badly written and always needlessly complex. That won't help LENR research. A single properly conducted experiment with robust results and no question of deception would have convinced everyone about Rossi or Defkalion specifically and LENR in general long ago. We're still waiting for it while you say it happened but you can't say who, what and where. We're still waiting for it while you make excuses for obvious tangential responses and evasive posts by Rossi and Defkalion. That is not what they and you should do to make the field credible. You should attack them and not the critics. The critics are the only ones who make sense. A single good result in LENR could not possibly be suppressed. In this internet age, there is no way it could happen. Look at all the attention and acclaim given to Rossi and for what?
Re: [Vo]:Rumors, lies and big lies [OT]
If you want to apply this joke to Rossi then it should be modified in this way: The guy goes into the backyard and sees a nice looking Labrador retriever (BBB) sitting there. 'You talk?' he asks. The owner intervenes and says : 'He talks only to me and a friend of mine (/// secret customer) and not strangers (/// independent testers)' If you want to hear the dog talk you should pay euro 500 K and sign all kind of agreements. And then we would keep the dog here in the backyard anyway for further training at least for sometime (/// indefinitely). Giovanni On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: A guy is driving around the back woods of Montana/// Bologna and he sees a sign in front of a broken down shanty-style house: 'Talking Dog For Sale 'He rings the bell and the owner appears and tells him the dog is in the backyard. The guy goes into the backyard and sees a nice looking Labrador retriever sitting there. 'You talk?' he asks. 'Yep,' the Lab replies. After the guy recovers from the shock of hearing a dog talk, he says 'So, what's your story?' The Lab looks up and says, 'Well, I discovered that I could talk when I was pretty young.. I wanted to help the government, so I told the CIA. In no time at all they had me jetting from country to country, sitting in rooms with spies and world leaders, because no one figured a dog would be eavesdropping.' 'I was one of their most valuable spies for eight years running... But the jetting around really tired me out, and I knew I wasn't getting any younger so I decided to settle down. I signed up for a job at the airport to do some undercover security, wandering near suspicious characters and listening in. I uncovered some incredible dealings and was awarded a batch of medals.' 'I got married, had a mess of puppies, and now I'm just retired.' The guy is amazed. He goes back in and asks the owner what he wants for the dog. 'Ten dollars,' the guy says. 'Ten dollars? This dog is amazing! Why on earth are you selling him so cheap?' 'Because he's a liar. He's never been out of the yard'
Re: [Vo]:Another lie from Rossi: 1MW plant was at bologna in the first day of november
This is a little confusing. Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: Here is the video: . . . An interview with Focardi and Rossi, in Italian. What is this? Was it broadcast on TV? Please enlighten those of us who do not speak Italian. You can see the 1MW plant. Right. Rossi is standing in front of it. I've contacted the author: the video footage was taken in the [first days of November] Rossi said that the 1MW plat was gone before 30 October. Okay, so he wasn't hiding the fact that the reactor was still sitting there. He wasn't pretending he had shipped it. On his blog he said he had shipped it, but that's not true. So why is this such a big deal? Was it reported in the mass media that he claimed it was shipped? Has his customer accused him of not shipping in violation of contract? It is either minor confusion or a minor lie. Minor compared to the usual level of chaos that Rossi sows when he opens his mouth. This incident sent AussiGuy into a tizzy. I told him I do not understand why, because anyone who has dealt with Rossi knows he does this kind of thing several times a day. Look at the list of contradictions that Akira and I ferreted out: http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Andrea_A._Rossi_Cold_Fusion_Generator:Rossi%27s_Hints Inescapable Conclusion #1: This person is not a consistent or reliable source of information. He often changes his tune. Are we agreed on that yet? Anyone who doubts should please review that list. Since we established that nearly a year ago, I think it is time to move on. Accept Rossi for who and what he is. Try to make sense of his claims based mainly on independent observations and replications, and on other people's work, such as Piantelli's. Stop carrying on about his personality! Grow up. He is not going to change. He will not publish a paper. He will not explain anything. He will never allow tests. He said he never will, and he meant it. He does not change his mind about stuff like this. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Greg Watson living HIGH ON THE HOG (OINK)
Eff it really was enough! The subject has to be closed till Aussie Guy says something. How do you translate in Australian English: Audiatur et altera pars? On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:51 PM, Peter B ddc...@hotmail.com wrote: Agreed jojo I dont mind hearing reasonable objections but this continous spewing of negative properganda is causing me to delete them as soon as I see their name . Shame really , because I think we need to hear both sides , just not their insecure emotions needing to belittle and mock people . Bullys and Dictators do this sort of thing . But the people are slowly culling them too Who is the moderator here anyway ? Pete -- From: jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Greg Watson living HIGH ON THE HOG (OINK) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 22:51:49 +0800 Eff, this forum is NOT your personal playground. You have stated your case, provided your proof and aired your concerns. Everyone has heard it and some disagree with you. It is time to stop repeating it and hijacking this excellent forum with your garbage. Please stop. BTW, I did preorder an E-Cat home unit. Jojo Jaro -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
RE: [Vo]:Rumors, lies and big lies [OT]
-Original Message- From: Alan Fletcher 'Ten dollars? This dog is amazing! Why on earth are you selling him so cheap?' 'Because he's a liar. He's never been out of the yard' ROTFL. There has got to be some subliminal interconnection here to the AR story, but I'm not sure if it is closer to Aesop or to Grimm. Do we have any 'tick cyclists' onboard this morning, to analyze the deeper meme quality of this humor? Jones
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 11:55 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Mary, there are serious problems with Rossi's demonstrations that we are all aware of. It is apparent to me that he has a very difficult problem trying to maintain stability of the power output and I have been doing some interesting simulation that tends to support this claim. The October 6 test data shows a clear fingerprint of LENR heat production which I hope to explain soon. All of the other models that I have seen thus far do not respond in a manner that comes even close to explaining the anomaly. These models have been based upon energy storage and release from a large mass of material inside the smaller cube. A better explanation for the curve can be obtained by assuming that a large peak of excess thermal energy is released at the end of the drive cycle due to an inherently unstable thermal run away process that is quenched just before it becomes unstoppable. If so, shouldn't Rossi be telling us that? Do you think he told his anonymous customer who supposedly bought **13** power plants consisting of some 600+ individual modular units? Do you believe there is such a customer? Is someone really that dense? What would 13 such things possibly be used for?
Re: [Vo]:Another lie from Rossi: 1MW plant was at bologna in the first day of november
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: Try to make sense of his claims based mainly on independent observations and replications That would be ever so much easier if you would bother to say who they are and have them tell what they did and where they published the results. He will never allow tests. There's a confidence builder for sure.
Re: [Vo]:University testing of the E-cat question asked on Rossi blog
At the risk of confusing the issue, is it possible that Rossi is trying to *reduce* the apparent temperature of the system? After seeing the video of the September test, and reading Eff Wiavkeef's comments here: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg61747.html it seems obvious that the steam coming from the rubber hose is at a much lower pressure than the water/stem being released from the E-Cat at the end of the video. Therefore, there would have to be two different reservoirs of water, one in a sealed container at high pressure, and a separate one, at normal (1 bar) pressure. They would be physically isolated, but thermally connected (through some sort of heat exchanger). The high-pressure side could be heated to much more than 100 C (at 5 bar, 152 C., at 10 bar, 181 C.). The pump would push small amounts of water through the heat exchanger, which would draw heat from the high-pressure reservoir, converting it into steam. This would easily explain where the extra heat came from. It would also explain the long, forceful jet of water/steam coming out of the E-Cat then the high-pressure side was opened at the end of the video. Rossi would have to hide the fact that the system is actually holding a temperature much higher than the 100 C. he claims. Just throwing it out there. From: Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:University testing of the E-cat question asked on Rossi blog On 12-01-22 04:24 AM, Shaun Taylor wrote: On 22/01/2012 6:57 PM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com mailto:shauntaylor...@gmail.com wrote: Rossi faked the 6 Oct data and fooled all the Experts that attended the demo. Some BIG names there. I see goop (probably silicon grease) on the brass fitting in the third image but I'm not sure what it tells us. The goop is where the bead of the thermocouple was placed. There is no other reason for anything like that material to be there other than to provide a good heat exchange between the brass fitting and the thermocouple head. OK, seems like a reasonable conclusion. But there's something about it which bothers me. The brass fitting in question is actually farther from the manifold body than the stainless nut which Horace (and others) had been assuming was the location of the thermocouple. What's more, the fitting in question is sufficiently far from the manifold body that it's not at all clear to me, at least, how much heat would actually have wicked to the thermocouple from the steam inlet. But be that as it may, given that this evidence seems to place the thermocouple farther from the heat source than had been previously assumed, I don't see how it makes things any worse for that test than they already were. So, what did I miss? (And by the way, Horace wasn't shouted down. Say, rather, he was shouted AT and I'll go along with it, but some folks agreed, some disagreed, and some just listened, as usual.)
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
All, Making sense of Rossi nonsense will continue to frustrate all. Minus independent test results from either Rossi or Defkalion, I found some real evidence on the web of an experiment with energy gains greater than COP 6. A laboratory rat Freddy was tied down in a reactor system similar to the E-Cat used by Rossi. The rat was fed a mixture of Ni nanopowder K2HCO3 mixed with corn meal. We then proceeded to insert a straw down the rat's throat, and connected the other end of the straw to a hydrogen cannister. At exactly 3 PM we opened the valve, and the hydrogen started to flow immediately. After five minutes Freddy showed clear signs of warming up, and at 3: 09: 47 Freddy EXPLODED.. We immediately performed a control experiment with Jerry, Freddy's twin brother, and this time we used an inert gas for the control experiment. Our claims of cold fusion were confirmed by the fact that Jerry exploded after 10 minutes and 13 seconds, a full 26 seconds later than Freddy. We are disappointed however in the reaction of our patent department, they claim they don't think there is a commercial application for this invention. We completely disagree with them. The amount of energy released was incredible, based on the appearence of the lab after the explosion. Oh well, we can always get a nice publication out of it... On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to quote the founding policies of this discussion group, written by Bill Beaty: http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. Pathological Skepticism is banned (see the link.) The tone here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! See also: http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html Many people who have shown up here lately seem to be unaware of these rules, or they are unwilling to abide by them. They have been carrying out vendettas, writing insults, using off-color language, and calling other people here bad names. They do act according to academic decorum, which calls for a large measure of polite hypocrisy. Some degree of ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is inevitable. It is human nature. But there has been far too much lately. These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Rumors, lies and big lies [OT]
Very good , made my morning Thanks Pete Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 21:53:39 +0200 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rumors, lies and big lies [OT] From: peter.gl...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Thanks, the best joke I read for years!Peter On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: A guy is driving around the back woods of Montana/// Bologna and he sees a sign in front of a broken down shanty-style house: 'Talking Dog For Sale 'He rings the bell and the owner appears and tells him the dog is in the backyard. The guy goes into the backyard and sees a nice looking Labrador retriever sitting there. 'You talk?' he asks. 'Yep,' the Lab replies. After the guy recovers from the shock of hearing a dog talk, he says 'So, what's your story?' The Lab looks up and says, 'Well, I discovered that I could talk when I was pretty young.. I wanted to help the government, so I told the CIA. In no time at all they had me jetting from country to country, sitting in rooms with spies and world leaders, because no one figured a dog would be eavesdropping.' 'I was one of their most valuable spies for eight years running... But the jetting around really tired me out, and I knew I wasn't getting any younger so I decided to settle down. I signed up for a job at the airport to do some undercover security, wandering near suspicious characters and listening in. I uncovered some incredible dealings and was awarded a batch of medals.' 'I got married, had a mess of puppies, and now I'm just retired.' The guy is amazed. He goes back in and asks the owner what he wants for the dog. 'Ten dollars,' the guy says. 'Ten dollars? This dog is amazing! Why on earth are you selling him so cheap?' 'Because he's a liar. He's never been out of the yard' -- Dr. Peter GluckCluj, Romaniahttp://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Mary Yogo, quoted by David Roberson wrote: You've been asked again and again to provide a SINGLE credible paper which shows robust heat production for a long period without the introduction of Joule heating or fresh fuel, thus proving without a doubt a nuclear process. I have yet to see such a paper. That is because you refuse to look. Drasin has your number: Avoid examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such ridiculous claims! (Note that this technique has withstood the test of time, and dates back at least to the age of Galileo. By simply refusing to look through his telescope, the ecclesiastical authorities bought the Church over three centuries' worth of denial free and clear!) http://amasci.com/pathskep.html I see you are using several other time-tested techniques. You have carefully described a test that would be difficult or impossible to meet. Joule heating or electrolysis power is necessary for most experiments. In most cases, fuel is consumed in such microscopic amounts, it would be impossible to avoid introducing thousands or millions of times more than is needed. You have been asked again and again to read the literature. You refuse. So you know nothing about it. You have no idea how many papers describe the results you say have never been published. Anyone who has read the literature can see that you are wrong. I assume you are playing to an audience of people like yourself who know nothing and who refuse to learn anything. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Another lie from Rossi: 1MW plant was at bologna in the first day of november
/snip/ It is either minor confusion or a minor lie. Minor compared to the usual level of chaos that Rossi sows when he opens his mouth. This incident sent AussiGuy into a tizzy. I told him I do not understand why, because anyone who has dealt with Rossi knows he does this kind of thing several times a day. Look at the list of contradictions that Akira and I ferreted out: /snip/ What I perceived from Aussie Guy was that he felt scammed. Regardless of any alleged past transgressions, it must such to feel like you're on the receiving end. I think he genuinely believes in the technology, and thought he was on the brink of making a fortune from Rossi's product. We don't know what person communications transpired between them, but I think his impression of BBB customer delivery consisted of more than a single affirmative on Rossi's blog. He was getting some info from the horse's mouth. His reaction was that of someone betrayed. It doesn't seem all black-and-white. Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 14:58:22 -0500 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Another lie from Rossi: 1MW plant was at bologna in the first day of november From: jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com This is a little confusing. Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: Here is the video: . . . An interview with Focardi and Rossi, in Italian. What is this? Was it broadcast on TV? Please enlighten those of us who do not speak Italian. You can see the 1MW plant. Right. Rossi is standing in front of it. I've contacted the author: the video footage was taken in the [first days of November] Rossi said that the 1MW plat was gone before 30 October. Okay, so he wasn't hiding the fact that the reactor was still sitting there. He wasn't pretending he had shipped it. On his blog he said he had shipped it, but that's not true. So why is this such a big deal? Was it reported in the mass media that he claimed it was shipped? Has his customer accused him of not shipping in violation of contract? It is either minor confusion or a minor lie. Minor compared to the usual level of chaos that Rossi sows when he opens his mouth. This incident sent AussiGuy into a tizzy. I told him I do not understand why, because anyone who has dealt with Rossi knows he does this kind of thing several times a day. Look at the list of contradictions that Akira and I ferreted out: http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Andrea_A._Rossi_Cold_Fusion_Generator:Rossi%27s_Hints Inescapable Conclusion #1: This person is not a consistent or reliable source of information. He often changes his tune. Are we agreed on that yet? Anyone who doubts should please review that list. Since we established that nearly a year ago, I think it is time to move on. Accept Rossi for who and what he is. Try to make sense of his claims based mainly on independent observations and replications, and on other people's work, such as Piantelli's. Stop carrying on about his personality! Grow up. He is not going to change. He will not publish a paper. He will not explain anything. He will never allow tests. He said he never will, and he meant it. He does not change his mind about stuff like this. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Right Sizing Nickel Particles
Finally some one worth talking to. You are correct, however, you must adjust for the speed of sound withing the dissolved metal to be at c/(2*137) http://www.wbabin.net/Science-Journals-Papers/Author/913/Frank,%20Znidarsic Frank Znidarsic -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Jan 22, 2012 7:44 am Subject: [Vo]:Right Sizing Nickel Particles In physics, Planck's law describes the amount of energy emitted by a black body in radiation of a certain wavelength (i.e. the spectral radiance of a black body). The law is named after Max Planck, who originally proposed it in 1900. The law was the first to accurately describe black body radiation, and resolved the ultraviolet catastrophe. It is a pioneer result of modern physics and quantum theory. For a given black body temperature, the wavelength at the peak of the Planck curve is called maximum lambda. This value gives a fell for the minimum relative size that an radiating object must be to optimally support photons associated with a give temperature. Like and antenna, a particle of nickel will best support the photons at a given temperature if the particle size is the adjusted to the ideal size. For a temperature of 700k or about 400C, the Lambda(max) must be 4.14 microns. This is why Rossi uses very large micro sized nickel particles in his reactor. Nano sized particles will not properly support the ideal photon wavelength needed to force protons into quantum mechanical coherence. Rossi undoubtedly found this optimal size through trial and error but science is easier. For a Planck function Infrared Radiance Calculator see the following: https://www.sensiac.org/external/resources/calculators/infrared_radiance_calculator.jsf%3bjsessionid=D08873244D6904EE654DBCDF0391F95E
RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Eff You could learn from this man , he got his point across , I read his message and stored it . When your name comes up I imediatley delete , pity cause you probably have the ability to share something usefull and I will never read it Pete Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:10:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group From: cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com All, Making sense of Rossi nonsense will continue to frustrate all. Minus independent test results from either Rossi or Defkalion, I found some real evidence on the web of an experiment with energy gains greater than COP 6. A laboratory rat Freddy was tied down in a reactor system similar to the E-Cat used by Rossi. The rat was fed a mixture of Ni nanopowder K2HCO3 mixed with corn meal. We then proceeded to insert a straw down the rat's throat, and connected the other end of the straw to a hydrogen cannister. At exactly 3 PM we opened the valve, and the hydrogen started to flow immediately. After five minutes Freddy showed clear signs of warming up, and at 3: 09: 47 Freddy EXPLODED.. We immediately performed a control experiment with Jerry, Freddy's twin brother, and this time we used an inert gas for the control experiment. Our claims of cold fusion were confirmed by the fact that Jerry exploded after 10 minutes and 13 seconds, a full 26 seconds later than Freddy. We are disappointed however in the reaction of our patent department, they claim they don't think there is a commercial application for this invention. We completely disagree with them. The amount of energy released was incredible, based on the appearence of the lab after the explosion. Oh well, we can always get a nice publication out of it... On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to quote the founding policies of this discussion group, written by Bill Beaty: http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. Pathological Skepticism is banned (see the link.) The tone here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! See also: http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html Many people who have shown up here lately seem to be unaware of these rules, or they are unwilling to abide by them.They have been carrying out vendettas, writing insults, using off-color language, and calling other people here bad names. They do act according to academic decorum, which calls for a large measure of polite hypocrisy. Some degree of ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is inevitable. It is human nature. But there has been far too much lately. These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed
