The BMW UUC Digest 
Volume 2 : Issue 191 : "text" Format

Messages in this Issue:
  Re: Not Banned
  Anyone service R12 in the Boston area?
  Re: Anyone service R12 in the Boston area?
  Re: Anyone service R12 in the Boston area?
  Re: Anyone service R12 in the Boston area?
  Re: Anyone service R12 in the Boston area?
  E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)
  Re: E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)
  Re: E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)
  Re: E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)
  Re: E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)
  Re: E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)
  Re: E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)
  Compression test
  Re: re:  Torchin' That Sucker!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:11:23 +0200
From: Pavel Tcholakov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Not Banned
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

This kind of set up is very often used to answer peak power demand, and using
the spare capacity to pump the water back during low demand periods. The
biggest problem for the power system is unexpected demand and this helps smooth
the curve even though it's a net loss.

It's mindboggling to think how they even cope with the management of such a
large-scale distributed system, it must be a process control nightmare. Think
of it, how many people use e.g. the microwave after the end of a popular TV
show?  And you have to have the capacity to answer the demand, otherwise bad
things happen ;-)

P

On Fri, May 14, 2004 at 04:23:03PM -0400, ben keyes wrote:
> 
> there's a pretty decent explanation of such a set-up
> in the UK here :
> http://www.fhc.co.uk/DIN.htm
> 
> pretty cool stuff.
> 
> 
> Ben
> 
> John Miller wrote:
> 
> > One would note that the local power utility (Pacific Gas and Electric)
> > built, twenty or so years ago when Diablo Canyon (their nuke on the Central
> > California coast) was being built and looked like it'd be providing surplus
> > off-peak power for the foreseeable future, something called the Helms
> > Canyon Pumped Storage Project.  It consisted of a set of vertical-axis
> > turbines in an underground cavern between a pair of reservoirs out in the
> > foothills past Fresno, where during the day water would run downhill
> > through the turbines and generate peak-use power, and at night the turbines
> > would be motored to pump the water back UPHILL using all that surplus
> > off-peak DCPP power.  Once again, a net power consumer, but (supposed to
> > be) cheap peak-load power.
> 
> Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________________________________
> In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA.
> 
> UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate
> Short Shifter - accept no substitutes!
> 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:14:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Steve.Goldstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Anyone service R12 in the Boston area?
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

The never-been-charged AC in my 1991 318is is starting to
get weak.  The system still works, it just doesn't get
frigid like it used to.  Does anyone know of a place in
the Boston, MA area that can help me out?  I don't really
want to convert to R134a at this time.

TIA.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:34:02 -0400
From: "Dennis Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anyone service R12 in the Boston area?
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Steve, I think a lot of shops still work with R12.  If yours doesn't, call
Mike Noonan at Mike's Autobody (www.mikes-autobody.com) at 781 324-9831.  He
fixes a LOT of BMWs, including outsourced work for dealers, and includes
getting the AC recharged on older cars.

Good luck!

vty,

--Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Steve.Goldstein
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 9:14 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [UUC] Anyone service R12 in the Boston area?


The never-been-charged AC in my 1991 318is is starting to
get weak.  The system still works, it just doesn't get
frigid like it used to.  Does anyone know of a place in
the Boston, MA area that can help me out?  I don't really
want to convert to R134a at this time.

TIA.

Steve
Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]


__________________________________________________________________________
In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA.

UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate
Short Shifter - accept no substitutes!
908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 06:59:40 -0700
From: Brad Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Steve.Goldstein'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Anyone service R12 in the Boston area?
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Have you seen the price of R12 lately? They aren't making it anymore, so
everything is left over stock or recycled.

You may want to look at a conversion anyway, if the rest of the system is
working well, it may end up being cheaper. Brett has an informative article
on the subject here: http://www.koalamotorsport.com/tech/misc/ac.htm

It will also help the resale value.

Brad Houser 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve.Goldstein
> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 6:14 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [UUC] Anyone service R12 in the Boston area?
> 
> The never-been-charged AC in my 1991 318is is starting to
> get weak.  The system still works, it just doesn't get
> frigid like it used to.  Does anyone know of a place in
> the Boston, MA area that can help me out?  I don't really
> want to convert to R134a at this time.
> 
> TIA.
> 
> Steve
> Search the 
> ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________
> ____________
> In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of 
> the BMW CCA.
> 
> UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate
> Short Shifter - accept no substitutes!
> 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:04:55 -0500
From: "Malcolm Reitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anyone service R12 in the Boston area?
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

R134A may be cheaper, but it doesn't cool as well. I put R12 back in the
M5 because its A/C, on its best days, is only barely adequate in the
south Texas summer heat.

Malcolm
'88 M5
'98 328i


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Houser
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 9:00 AM
To: 'Steve.Goldstein'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [UUC] Anyone service R12 in the Boston area?

Have you seen the price of R12 lately? They aren't making it anymore, so
everything is left over stock or recycled.

You may want to look at a conversion anyway, if the rest of the system
is
working well, it may end up being cheaper. Brett has an informative
article
on the subject here: http://www.koalamotorsport.com/tech/misc/ac.htm

It will also help the resale value.

Brad Houser 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve.Goldstein
> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 6:14 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [UUC] Anyone service R12 in the Boston area?
> 
> The never-been-charged AC in my 1991 318is is starting to
> get weak.  The system still works, it just doesn't get
> frigid like it used to.  Does anyone know of a place in
> the Boston, MA area that can help me out?  I don't really
> want to convert to R134a at this time.
> 
> TIA.
> 
> Steve
> Search the 
> ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________
> ____________
> In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of 
> the BMW CCA.
> 
> UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate
> Short Shifter - accept no substitutes!
> 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com

Search the
ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]


________________________________________________________________________
__
In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW
CCA.

UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate
Short Shifter - accept no substitutes!
908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:18:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Steve.Goldstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Anyone service R12 in the Boston area?
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Wow, you guys are quick!

I've already had a pointer to a good local bodyshop (Mike's
Autobody in Malden, MA) as a possible source or a pointer to
one (thanks Dennis!).

Brad suggested I consider conversion anyway and pointed me
at one of Brett's pages.  From reading this it appears I'd
need to replace both the compressor and the receiver drier.

Any idea what the cost of conversion would be?  Does whatever
R12 remains in the system have any salvage value?

Thanks.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:42:05 -0400
From: "John Weese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


Hello Everyone,

I have some general questions re: E36 M3's.  My son is casually
looking...within a year or so he'll most likely dump his '01 Jetta 1.8T
(sweet car btw, very quick), for a used M3...he "hates" front wheel drive!

A few questions for the ///M3 "knowledgeable":

1.  Which cars had the "mesh" grill versus the "bar-style" grill?

2.  Which cars had the OBDI versus OBDII technology?  And which is
best?..problems with either, etc.?

3.  Any particular year that is better than others? (I know to stay away
from the '95's due to the slightly underpowered 3.0 Liter powerplant).

Any help/advice much appreciated.

John Weese
BMW CCA #76646
'88 M5
'72tii
'73tii
'76 2002
home e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
work e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]





------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:03:01 -0400
From: Steve Tymoszuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

john,

checkout the e36 faq at http://www.eurospeed.org/

good luck in the search!

-steve

John Weese wrote:

>I have some general questions re: E36 M3's.  
>  
>


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 07:48:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Richard Dorffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

--- John Weese <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I have some general questions re: E36 M3's.  My son is casually
> looking...within a year or so he'll most likely dump his '01 Jetta 1.8T
> (sweet car btw, very quick), for a used M3...he "hates" front wheel drive!

Me too.

> A few questions for the ///M3 "knowledgeable":

Don't know about that but I do have some opinions...

> 1.  Which cars had the "mesh" grill versus the "bar-style" grill?

The luxury models typically had the "bar-style" grill, otherwise, all the others had 
the mesh
(unless damaged or replaced with the other and vice versa).  I prefer the look of the 
mesh grill
(but that could have a lot to do with the initial impression I got of the E36 M3 from 
the '94 Car
& Driver article I read which started my BMW disease).

> 2.  Which cars had the OBDI versus OBDII technology?  And which is
> best?..problems with either, etc.?

OBDI is easier to tune and does much less emissions adjustments compared to OBDII.  
Most anyone
interested in modifying their car prefers OBDI.

I am not aware of any particular "problems" other than the adaption of the OBDII with 
respect to
tuning efforts.

> 3.  Any particular year that is better than others? (I know to stay away
> from the '95's due to the slightly underpowered 3.0 Liter powerplant).

Underpowered my a*s, tell the guys and gals I pass at the Mid-Ohio driving school in 
two weekends
that I am the one in the "underpowered" '95 M3...

;-)

The 3.2 mills had more grunt but the 3.0 motors tend to breath better at top end.  I 
know people
the prefer one over the other and vice versa.  Honestly, the best combination is a 3.2 
with the
3.0 intake and OBDI.

If you want potential real problems, some of the earlier '95 M3 had soft retainers.  
Later
versions had harder retainers.  I can't remember the exact production switch over

> Any help/advice much appreciated.

Regards,

Rich

95 M3 - underpowered...but with upgraded retainers
90 325is - really wimpy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:05:34 +0200
From: Pavel Tcholakov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 07:48:56AM -0700, Richard Dorffer wrote:
> > 2.  Which cars had the OBDI versus OBDII technology?  And which is
> > best?..problems with either, etc.?
> 
> OBDI is easier to tune and does much less emissions adjustments compared to
> OBDII.  Most anyone interested in modifying their car prefers OBDI.
> 
> I am not aware of any particular "problems" other than the adaption of the
> OBDII with respect to tuning efforts.

Can anyone confirm or deny the following statement:

OBDII is a much better management system with far more potential due to the
extra sensors etc. Most people whine because it's much harder to pirate chips
due to the integration of the immobiliser codes into the software and you need
more sophisticated eqiupment, but if you know what you're doing OBDII offers
more potential for tuning. In particular, it's possible to finely tune the
double VANOS which results in much bigger gains compared to just altering the
spark timing and fueling.

I heard this from a guy who's recognized as a pro when it comes to chiptuning
(Chip Logic of RSA). Note that he's only talking about the ECUs, obviously the
manifold and other changes in the case of the latter BMWs also played their
part in changing the engine character. I don't want to start a flamewar here,
just interested to hear some more opinions :-)

P

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 08:46:01 -0500
From: "Malcolm Reitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

John,

You'll find a lot of good info at www.bmw-m.net.

Malcolm
'88 M5
'98 328i

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Weese
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 8:42 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [UUC] E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)


Hello Everyone,

I have some general questions re: E36 M3's.  My son is casually
looking...within a year or so he'll most likely dump his '01 Jetta 1.8T
(sweet car btw, very quick), for a used M3...he "hates" front wheel
drive!

A few questions for the ///M3 "knowledgeable":

1.  Which cars had the "mesh" grill versus the "bar-style" grill?

2.  Which cars had the OBDI versus OBDII technology?  And which is
best?..problems with either, etc.?

3.  Any particular year that is better than others? (I know to stay away
from the '95's due to the slightly underpowered 3.0 Liter powerplant).

Any help/advice much appreciated.

John Weese
BMW CCA #76646
'88 M5
'72tii
'73tii
'76 2002
home e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
work e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Search the
ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]


________________________________________________________________________
__
In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW
CCA.

UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate
Short Shifter - accept no substitutes!
908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:58:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

On Mon, 17 May 2004 09:42:05 -0400, "John Weese" wrote:

> 1.  Which cars had the "mesh" grill versus the "bar-style" grill?

Not sure that was model specific as much as user. Perhaps lux package got slots vs 
mesh...can be
changed easily enough.
> 
> 2.  Which cars had the OBDI versus OBDII technology?  And which is
> best?..problems with either, etc.?

OBD II was 96 and beyond.  OBD 1 easier to tune in some ways.  Has more top end.  OBD 
II has more
low end torque, but isn't as happy at higher revs, though it's still very nice.

> 3.  Any particular year that is better than others? (I know to stay away
> from the '95's due to the slightly underpowered 3.0 Liter powerplant).

95s are OK.  Though they went to different valve retainers in, I think October.

4 doors were only made in 1997/1998.  Nice to have the convenience for all sorts of 
reasons. track
tires fit nicely in the back seat and are easier to load with the rear doors.

Marc Plante
E36 325i, 220k [For Sale]
E36 M3/4, 49k
2002 Audi AR 
Vienna, VA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:06:17 -0500
From: "Batt, Jeff (MED)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Malcolm Reitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Hey John,

I'll try a few:

1) I'm not really sure about the mesh vs. bar-style grill.  I'm think
the '95's had mesh (I own one with mesh) and I thought the bar style was
put on the 4 doors or on the M3 "Luxury" models...but again, not sure on
this.

2) The 1995's had OBDI, the rest had OBDII.  In terms of which is the
best, "best" is a relative term, but I've read that OBDI is easier to
modify with performance upgrades while OBDII is easier to buy
(relatively) cheap scanners to diagnose engine issues, etc.  I've never
read/heard about specific problems with either.  

3) Again, I own a '95, so I'm biased, but I've read that the '95 is
often considered the e36 M3 to have due to it's easily modified OBDI
computer, a different intake, same sized wheels/tires all around (easy
to rotate), a different rear differential and an overall smoother engine
vs. the 3.2L.  HP readings are the same, but I think the '96 and up
years had a little more torque.  The performance numbers are about the
same for all the years - but I would imagine you would "feel" a little
more torque while driving?  I think if you decide if you want 4 doors,
coupe or convertible; and if you want manual or auto, your son won't be
disappointed regardless.

Overall though, my '95 M3 has been the best car I've ever owned and
would recommend one to anyone.  I traded a twin turbo RX-7 for it - and
while the M3 can't match the performace on individual tests, it's 10
times the car my RX-7 was.  I also own a Ferrari 328, and while the
Ferrari gets more looks and is a blast to drive, the M3 is easier to
drive fast and WAY better for a road trip.

Good hunting, Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Malcolm Reitz
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 8:46 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [UUC] E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)


John,

You'll find a lot of good info at www.bmw-m.net.

Malcolm
'88 M5
'98 328i

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Weese
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 8:42 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [UUC] E36 M3 Trivia (some questions)


Hello Everyone,

I have some general questions re: E36 M3's.  My son is casually
looking...within a year or so he'll most likely dump his '01 Jetta 1.8T
(sweet car btw, very quick), for a used M3...he "hates" front wheel
drive!

A few questions for the ///M3 "knowledgeable":

1.  Which cars had the "mesh" grill versus the "bar-style" grill?

2.  Which cars had the OBDI versus OBDII technology?  And which is
best?..problems with either, etc.?

3.  Any particular year that is better than others? (I know to stay away
from the '95's due to the slightly underpowered 3.0 Liter powerplant).

Any help/advice much appreciated.

John Weese
BMW CCA #76646
'88 M5
'72tii
'73tii
'76 2002
home e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
work e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Search the
ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]


________________________________________________________________________
__
In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW
CCA.

UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate
Short Shifter - accept no substitutes!
908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com

Search the
ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]


________________________________________________________________________
__
In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW
CCA.

UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate
Short Shifter - accept no substitutes!
908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:06:13 -0400
From: "Carey Probst" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Compression test
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Sorry Jamie but 211 is not much higher than the others.

I think the numbers you are showing are extremely level.  I believe the
standard for testing is +/- 10% IIRC.

You are good.


Carey Probst, '99 M3/2, '86 325e w/i cam
BMW CCA Patroon and Genesee Valley Chapters
JC CAIed and Sharked, Stressed, Schrothed, Gauged, Hitched, X-Braced


Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 18:45:26 -0500
From: "Jamie Howton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Compression test
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Well, I did a compression test on my 95 M3 (95 K miles) today and ended
up with the following:

Cyl    PSI
===   ===
 1       205
 2       205
 3       204
 4       203
 5       200
 6       211

Should I be concerned about the fact that cyl 6 is so much higher than
the others?  The other thing that was sort of odd was that all cylinders
took about 10 revolutions before the pressure stopped increasing, the
values above are peak, they were all in the 180 psi range after 4
revolutions.

Thanks

Jamie Howton

**********


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:54:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Andy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: re:  Torchin' That Sucker!
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Howdy,

On Sat, 15 May 2004, Mike Hsu wrote:
> The 1 time that I needed to heat a set of really tight
> bolts, propane worked.  Longest heating time was about
> 3 minutes at full blast.  

...Then you need to find harder jobs.

:-)

Seriously, I've used propane as well, but O-A is the way to go when you 
need to heat up something that won't move.  Propane takes a _lot_ longer 
and sometimes won't work at all.

That said, for the original poster I'm pretty amazed that you couldn't at 
least snap off the original strut-knuckle bolt with handtools.  Of course, 
sometimes that just gives you a whole other set of problems...

Mark

(now, they do make propane/oxy rigs from what I understand, along with MAP 
gas setups.  Both are hotter than propane alone, but from what I recall, 
both aren't as good as a real O-A setup)


------------------------------

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