In a way, professor, Marchal, you seem to be on the side of Stephen Wolfram, who once wrote about there being no need to ever do SETI, because, if we wanted to know advanced Extra Terrestrial technologies, it would be far, simpler to generate algorythems (sp) that contain these unknown civilizations. I tried to search and see if Dr. Wolfram eloborated on this strange, proposal, but seemingly, he did not. I am clueless, over what bit-stream one would run, and on what type of computer, we'd require to accomplish what Wolfram, once proposed. Perhaps Wolfram was just hand-waving, and merely exercising his imagination?

Mitch


-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 4:26 am
Subject: Re: That the mind works even after the brain ceases to function suggests its ...


On 27 May 2013, at 05:05, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Understood, Jason. I became familiar with this digital universe
concept, first, through Hans Moravec, in Mind Children. I wonder how
possible it is to discover that we are part of an ancestor simulation?


By reasoning, taking the FPI into consideration. We cannot discover
this, but evaluate the probability, which might be high indeed. By the
FPI, our consciousness relied on all computations (infinity) which is
going through you state. In a sense, you are both in the simulations
by ancestors (which exist in arithmetic) and all the other
simulations, which exist also in arithmetic.

Bruno




-----Original Message-----
From: meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 10:00 pm
Subject: Re: That the mind works even after the brain ceases to
function suggests its ...

            On 5/25/2013 11:03 AM, Jason Resch      wrote:




         On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 10:35 AM,
&lt;spudboy...@aol.com&gt;           wrote:

                Interesting Jason,

               My issue with the multi-generated clones
created                  either by the actions of a multiverse or
the actions                  of hypercomputers, my concern is that,
its such a                  waste (in my opinion) that a Jason who
belongs to an                  identical Earth, but humans all have
elephant tricks                  instead of noses. Or a Jason Resch,
belonging to a                  species that has rectangular crystal
panels built in                  their stomachs and backs (see
thru). I am shooting for                  ridiculous incarnations of
J. Resch, in order to                  illustrate the unlikeliness,
of this method of                  producing the actual person-
thoughts feelings                  memories. The memory thing as a
blue print, to me,                  seems, essential, for
resurrection. I could be totally                  wrong, but I am
merely trying to simplify this for                  myself, if
nobody else.  Thanks, Jason.


          Mitch,


           Consider a few points:  First, roughly 100
billion              humans have ever lived in this history of
humans, the life              expectancy of humans over most of that
time was 10 years,              so roughly there have been 1
trillion years worth of human              experience.  Second, if
transhumanism is correct and we              transcend our
biological limits we could not only live              much longer
but generate experiences at greatly              accelerated rates.
It would take the then current              population of people
(say it is 10 billion) only 100 years              to generate the
same total amount of experience of all              humans going
back millions of years.  Even if only 10% of              the
population, spends only 1% of their time              simulating/
experiencing alternate lives or histories, it              would
take a mere 100,000 years for most of "human"
experiences to be generated artificially by our
descendents.  This ignores the acceleration that is
possible.  Electricity flows through wires about a
million              times faster than neurotransmitters conduct
signals in the              brain.  This implies that without any
miniaturization,              human thought could be accelerated by
about a factor of a              million times, so it could take
only a month (rather than              100,000 years) for these
accelerated humans spending only              0.1% of their
collective time simulating ancestors for the              bulk of
human experience to be artificially generated.               Now
consider that such a civilization could live for
billions of years.  If each post-human experiences a
few              thousand or a few million ancestor lives, or
alternate              species, etc., then odds quickly become
overwhelming that              your current moment of awareness is
not explained by that              of some biological being on a
physical planet but that of              some advanced being
conducting a simulation on some              advanced computational
substrate.


          Jason



              -Mitch


                                -----Original Message-----
                  From: Jason Resch &lt;jasonre...@gmail.com&gt;
To: Everything List
&lt;everything-list@googlegroups.com
&gt;
                  Sent: Thu, May 23, 2013 11:10 am
                   Subject: Re: That the mind works even after
the                   brain ceases to function suggests its ...





                           On Fri, May
17, 2013 at 4:57 PM,
&lt;spudboy...@aol.com
&gt;                             wrote:
                          So
, Jason,by this reasoning, a
sufficiently advanced
technology,                                      then, in
indistinguisable from
Resurrection.



                             If used for such purposes.  Even
if                                technology is not used for the
explicit                                purpose of resurrection, say
it is only                                used for exploration
purposes, where                                simulation is applied
to explore other                                possibilities of
existence and being, a                                side effect
will be to provide new paths                                for the
consciousness of the simulated                                beings
to follow.  It is a bit like the                                guy
who dreamed he was a butterfly.  If
it was an completely accurate dream
(as                                simulation technology could
allow), then                                the butterfly is given
the ability to                                "ressurect" to become
a human.                                 Similarly, advanced "omega
point"                                civilizations or Jupiter
brains may                                choose to explore
potentiality for                                consciousness and
thus try to experience                                the lives of
other beings.  Such an                                intelligence,
existing in any physical                                universe
that provides infinite                                energy/
infinite computing power has the
ability to experience the life of
every                                other being anywhere in any
universe                                (assuming
computationalism).  If one of                                these
exists anywhere, the it provides                                us
the potential to wake up as it, just
as the butterfly has the potential to
wake up as a human.  Such a being may
even feel compelled to provide a
pleasant afterlife given all the
suffering that exists in the physical
worlds, although this point is more
contentious.


                          I
 mention this because I have
discussed tech resurrection,
as,                                      at least, an
intellectual                                      phenomenon, over
at the Kurzweil                                      forum. There is
an enthusiast for
technologically based
resurrection, on the forum,
has                                      produced a moderately,
large,                                      website, that presents
this                                      concept. Most people will
say this                                      in impossible, and who
am I to                                      dispute them? But I
still find the                                      topic
interesting, none the less.



                             That is interesting to me.  What
is                               the website?



                                   My suspicion is that there
is                                      some feature of the universe
that                                      acts as a substrate for
all                                      actions and characteristics
and                                      records it all. I am trying
to peg                                      it down to the Planck
length as                                      sort of a storage
cell. The                                      styllus to read-write
could be                                      anything from photons
to                                      neutrinos, that would write
to the                                      planck length. Who knows
if it is                                      even plausible, but I
sort of like                                      it anyway. I like
NDE stuff too,                                      and try to sort
the most cogent                                      stories from
the least cogent.



                             Whether or not it is recorded
or                                extractable in this universe
is                                immaterial.  If the universe
is                                infinitely large or infinitely
varied,                                we each reappear an infinite
number of                                times.  There are a
countably infinite                                number of
programs, and for any given                                level of
complexity, there is a finite                                number
of possible programs shorter than
some length.  Any consciousness we
simulate is the consciousness of
something that exists somewhere else
in                                the infinitely varied/infinitely
large                                universe, and if the universe
is really                                this big, then someone else
far away                                could simulate you perfectly
without                                having to extract a record of
you.  Just                                running Bruno's UDA for a
long enough                                time "ressurects"
everyone, we are all                                contained in
that short program.













   To which, one is tempted to respond: So what?  If there is all
this    simulation going on, what reason is there to suppose it is
being    done by being anything like us or that the worlds in which
the    simulations take place (the "real" ones, if there are any)
are    anything like this one.  You are simply led back to trying
to    discover what are possible worlds, where "possible" can be
anything    from "familiar enough I can understand it" to
"nomologically    possible" to "not containing contradictions".

  Brent


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