On 07 Jan 2014, at 16:32, John Clark wrote:

On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 5:20 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

> Einstein principle of reality ( if without perturbing a system, I can predict with certainty an outcome, then there is an element of reality to it).

Yes but it doesn't necessarily go the other way, even if things are realistic, even if a system will produce a real outcome it still might be impossible to predict what that outcome will be even in theory; the only way to know what it will do is watch it and see.

Sure.

Let us distinguish two form of indeterminacies. Exceptionally, I will assume QM+collapse, and in that case we have a 3p-indeterminacy. I will call it abrupt, to distinguish it from the Turing indeterminacy, where we observe a complex Turing machine computation, and cannot predict its possible long term outcome, although all local actions are deterministic.


I believe that making a theory which assumes abrupt 3p indeterminacy, is a form of "God did it", or "don't ask" (as said explicitely by Feynman, with a grin).

This is especially even more true when we do have technical account of where the 1p indeterminacy "illusion" comes from, like in the quantum self-superposition or the classical, and arithmetical, or numerable, self-duplication.

When you say that "it does not go in the other way", you are valid, but it is a bit of the type of the following: it is not because thermodynamics explains why car move themselves that there are no invisible horses pulling them. Or "it is not because evolution is correct that it is not God who planned it all".

Assuming 3p indeterminacy real is like assuming we are dumb a priori. It is a "god-of-the gap" by construction. Then, a theory like comp can explain why in the 1p, some indeterminacies have to be lived.

Rationalism is just the taste for the simplest explanation.


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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