On 7 January 2014 08:36, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

>  On 1/6/2014 8:16 AM, John Clark wrote:
>  On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 4:11 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>   On 6 January 2014 06:47, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>   >>> Bell's theorem holds only under a certain set of assumptions,
>>>  >>True. As I've said many times Bell made exactly 3 assumptions:
>>>   1) High School algebra and trigonometry works.
>>>   2) Things are local.
>>>   3) Things are realistic.
>>  > In fact Bell made a fourth assumption, although he didn't realise he
>> was making it until later. Namely, he assumed that time is asymmetric.
>  I won't bother to argue if Bell made this assumption or not because it
> doesn't matter, time is asymmetric.
>   > 4) Time is asymmetric not just at the level of everyday experience,
>> but also at the quantum level
>>   Bell's 4th assumption seems to me quite a reasonable one to drop,
>> given that most physics contradicts it.
>  That is incorrect, most physics does NOT contradict time's asymmetry,
> thermodynamics and cosmology certainly don't. Yes Quantum Mechanics seems
> to be time symmetrical but even if Quantum Mechanics tells the whole story
> (and we know for a fact that it doesn't because it doesn't include gravity)
> time could still be asymmetric because how a system evolves over time
> depends not only on the rules of the game (Quantum Mechanics) but also on
> the initial conditions.
> But if QM without collapse is fundamental, then the dynamics are time
> (really CPT) symmetric and all the observed asymmetry is a statistical
> effect due to starting in low entropy initial conditions.  Bell derived his
> inequality assuming QM with collapse, i.e. he assumed this time asymmetry
> was fundamental, not a mere statistical effect related to the low entropy
> of the initial conditions of the experiment.

Well if Bell assumed collapse (which is I agree a fundamental time
asymmetry) then he built in time asymmetry, just as I said. It is, indeed,
his 4th assumption.

I know of only one CPT violation, and if we assume no-collapse then
everything else in the universe appears to be either a (rather unlikely)
knock-on effect of kaon decay or a statistical result of the entropy
gradient, which is in turn derived (most likely) from universal boundary
conditions like the cosmological expansion.

PS It *would *have been nice if you'd started what you said "And" rather
than "But" just to show that you were agreeing with me :(

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