On 1/6/2014 8:16 AM, John Clark wrote:

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On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 4:11 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com <mailto:lizj...@gmail.com>> wrote: On 6 January 2014 06:47, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com <mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> Bell's theorem holds only under a certain set of assumptions, >>True. As I've said many times Bell made exactly 3 assumptions: 1) High School algebra and trigonometry works. 2) Things are local. 3) Things are realistic. > In fact Bell made a fourth assumption, although he didn't realise he was making it until later. Namely, he assumed that time is asymmetric.I won't bother to argue if Bell made this assumption or not because it doesn't matter,time is asymmetric.> 4) Time is asymmetric not just at the level of everyday experience, but also at the quantum level Bell's 4th assumption seems to me quite a reasonable one to drop, given that most physics contradicts it.That is incorrect, most physics does NOT contradict time's asymmetry, thermodynamics andcosmology certainly don't. Yes Quantum Mechanics seems to be time symmetrical but evenif Quantum Mechanics tells the whole story (and we know for a fact that it doesn'tbecause it doesn't include gravity) time could still be asymmetric because how a systemevolves over time depends not only on the rules of the game (Quantum Mechanics) butalso on the initial conditions.

`But if QM without collapse is fundamental, then the dynamics are time (really CPT)`

`symmetric and all the observed asymmetry is a statistical effect due to starting in low`

`entropy initial conditions. Bell derived his inequality assuming QM with collapse, i.e.`

`he assumed this time asymmetry was fundamental, not a mere statistical effect related to`

`the low entropy of the initial conditions of the experiment.`

Brent

The universe started out in an extremely low entropy state, probably the lowest entropystate possible, so whatever the true laws of physics are, that is to say whatever therules of the game are, it wouldn't change the fact that there are just more ways to bedisordered than ordered. So as the game plays out entropy increases and time has adirection regardless of what the rules of the game are.John K Clark --You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "EverythingList" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email toeverything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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