Re: [Emc-users] Wish me luck. I am downloading v.18 of freecad as src, gonna see if I can build a 32 bit version

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 March 2019 22:28:48 Chris Albertson wrote:

> Would be faster to dumpster dive a PC.   I doubt you'd ever get a
> modern CAD app to compile on a small ARM-based board.   It would take
> weeks of work
>
This is an 10 yo 2.1 GHz quad core phenom, and I know its too slow. There 
are quad core i5's in the garage, one is running the g0704 and they are 
too slow too, and think they are i686's to boot. 17,000+ bogomips.

> Don't you have a good Linux PC with at least an i7 processor?  3D CAD,
> even if you could get it to build on low-end hardware would be
> horrible to use. You want at least the i5, 4GB RAM and a 20" screen
> with a good GPU card. But even that would lag badly.  A newer quad
> core i7 is a better processor.   You want the image to re-render
> nearly instantly, faster than human reflexes can detect. Otherwise,
> you don't get smooth rotations. To be usable the 3D model on the
> screen has to move as well as if you were holding a physical model in
> your hand.  If the screen image lags detectably it is unnatural to
> use.

Maybe its time to build a new machine here.  But this one is like an old 
friend.  Hate to put it out to pasture. I've looked around, and by the 
time I put a new board and cpu with a dozen cores and enough memory to 
adequately run some of this stuff, (and still be fighting with a video 
card that runs at 5% speed on linux. I'll have 2Gs in it.  All to do gfx 
like the amiga 4000-060 in the basement, which in its day could roll and 
rotate to see the back side of a full color ntsc image in real time just 
by grabbing a corner of it and dragging the mouse. And it did it with 16 
megs of dram and a dual core 68060 50 MHz processor. What the hell has 
happened?  We are spinning a lot of wheels doing nothing is whats going 
on. Discouraging.

> CAD is one of the use cases that justify "workstation" class
> computers. The other might be video editing and sound mixing or
> high-end video games.
>
When the amiga was king, the "workstation" for really high end gfx 
production  was a $5.5k mac g5.  Worked well, till it caught fire 
because a 75 cent fan failed and apple wouldn't touch it because it 
wasn't running apple SW. $14G's we put it that A/B roll gfx system and 
it was all up in smoke in 5 months. We got screwed, and I don't think 
the tv station has bought an apple product since.  We had bought some 
pizzabox video servers at about the same time, and their fans were junk 
too.  We have several $ I think) each capable of recording and playing 6 
channels of 20mhz digital video now, rigged up as auto-failover so if 
one fails, the next is online, and in synch, in a few milliseconds, and 
Jim Hines built them all. Running centos.

And we haven't seen a BSOD on the air since we terminated the 'weather 
channel'. They built their own building in our back yard and filled it 
with winderz XP machines, but they wouldn't replace it when it turned 
into a crasher a dozen times a day.

The owner, who was a personal friend of mine, died about 2 years back and 
his daughter sold it, to Grey. For an obscene amount of money. Grey's 
people toured the place and dictated that the linux machines had to go.  

Funny thing, nearly 2 years later, the 2 linux servers there then are 
still there and 2 more have been added once they looked at how 
dependable they were vs the cost of all the winderz machines it would 
take to replace them.

Computing has come a long ways, but despite huge improvements in the 
hardware, you can measure the progress with a shirt pocket ruler.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] EDA Software (Was: ConFusion 360)

[Alan Condit]

Gregg,

This isn’t exactly what you were asking for, but it might work. CRAMPS-BOB3-a3 
 It is for the CRAMPS board. 
Instead of the step/dir/common pins going to a Polulu board, the are shipped 
over to the output connector on the CRAMPS board. So you can use the pin header 
to run on off board drive. If you are interested I can send you the schematic 
for the board. If the link above doesn’t work, here is the URL 


Alan

> From: Gregg Eshelman 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EDA Software (Was: ConFusion 360)
> Date: March 23, 2019 at 4:32:59 PM PDT
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> 
> 
> What I've been wanting someone to make are screw terminal breakout boards for 
> Pololu or StepStick sockets so that Step, Dir, Enable etc connections can be 
> made to bigger external motor drivers from a CRAMPS, RAMPS and any other 
> small control board made for use with those little drivers.
>On Saturday, March 23, 2019, 3:39:54 PM MDT, andy pugh 
>  wrote:  
> 
> On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 21:32, Jon Elson  wrote:
> 
>> I inherited the CRAMPS board from Charles Steinkuehler,
>> which he designed in Kicad.  While Kicad is not quite up to
>> the level of Protel99, it definitely is getting close.
> 
> The STMBL project uses KiCAD. (Though they started with Eagle I think)
> As far as I know there haven't been any KiCAD-caused problems, but my
> involvement is fairly peripheral.
> 
> (f you don't know, STMBL is pretty much the perfect retrofit brushless
> servo drive, as it will accept nearly any type of motor feedback and
> can drive both brushless PM and induction motors. It talks Mesa
> smart-serial for an all-digital command and feedback loop, but can
> also work with step-dir, RS232 etc)  
> 


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

Almost all of this Windows BS goes away if you run Windows in a VM.The
easy and secure way to run Windows is to first install Linux (or use Mac OS
if on a Mac) and then a VM and then Windows.Then it does not need video
or wifi drivers and you can snapshot the new Windows 10 install and later
if/when the system is messed up.  click reset and get back to the last
snapshot.   You user data is likely on a file server so the reset will
correct any issues nearly instantly

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 4:13 PM Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users <
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> If you have Windows 7 or 8 installed you can upgrade for free. Find the
> gatherosstate.exe file on the Windows 10 disc or ISO. Copy it to the
> desktop and run it. Copy the genuineticket file it creates somewhere off
> the computer. Now you can erase the installed Windows and do a clean
> install of 10. It's easy to find where to copy the genuineticket file to
> make 10 self activate.
> Windows 10 will also directly accept many retail and OEM key codes for 7
> and 8.
> One recently introduced *gotcha* is starting with build 1607 of Windows
> 10, it's been deprecating older methods of driver signing, especially for
> video drivers. What happens is newer builds will allow the installer to run
> but will quietly block the driver files from installing. If you try to
> manually install the extracted files with Device Manager it will either lie
> to you with a claim of being unable to find the file it just found, or will
> BSOD.
> As of build 1809 there's a workaround. Install Build 1511 and all the
> drivers, then upgrade to any build from 1607 through 1809. That will allow
> the "insecure" drivers to stay. No word on if the new major build to be
> released later this year will still do that.
> There's a recently introduced bug in Windows 10 with some laptops. When
> returning from shutting off the display, sleeping, or hibernating, the
> screen is solid black except for the mouse pointer. The latest cumulative
> update for build 1809 addresses *some* of those issues but if you have an
> older laptop that shipped with Vista or 7 which has the black screen bug
> with build 1607 or later it may never get fixed. The workaround is to
> completely disable display off, sleep, and hibernate. I fixed up a Compaq
> NC8430 (shipped with 32bit Win7, I dropped in 4 gig, a 320 gig HD, and a
> Core 2 Duo to install Win 10 x64) that has this issue, along with having to
> do the 1511 then 1809 upgrade to get a proper video driver for the ATi
> Mobility Radeon X1600.
> Dunno why Microsoft cannot stop re-breaking things in Windows 10 after
> they've fixed them. The RTM release had major problems with a large number
> of laptop WiFi adapters. Took them almost a year to put out a fix, which
> they had to make available for direct download both for RTM and the first
> update build. Then Microsoft proceeded to re-break WiFi several more times
> until they seem to have decide to quit mucking about and leave it alone.
> On Saturday, March 23, 2019, 2:25:13 PM MDT, Chris Albertson <
> albertson.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 12:56 PM andy pugh  wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 19:45, Chris Albertson  >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, Fusion already runs on a Linux machine, Make a VM with Window
> > 10
> > > in the Linux computer then put Fusion on the VM.
> >
> > But how much does a Windows 10 Licence cost? It seems to be around
> > £189 (for a full retail rathe than OEM version)
> >
>
> You can run Windows 10 for free and you don't need to pirate the software.
>   It's
> all above board.Yuo can install Windows 10 from the Microsoft website.
> then simply never "activate" it.The only real difference between an
> activated
> and unactivated Wondows 10 is cosmetic.  The system will now and then ask
> you to
> activate it.  But it continues to run jst fine.  Yuo even get all the
> software
> security and feature updatesI even have some cloud stoarage
> in Microft's system for One Note and some other data.
>
> Microsoft's policies have changed qute a lot with their new CEO.
>
> If you are willing to be slightly devious, Microsoft will give you a free
> activated
> copy of Windows 10 if you download it from their "accessibilty" web site.
> They make Win 10 acailable to those who are disabled but do not ask for
> proof or even
> ask if you are in fact disabled.  So you get it with out having to enter
> false information.
>
> Then of cousre you can be dishonest and us any of the ba-zillian cracked
> copies of Windows on the web.  But this is not legal even if it is common.
>
> Your best bet is simply to not activate.  Microsoft is fine with this, but
> they will nag you forever.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> >
> 

Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Rafael Skodlar]

Sorry Les,
but ...

On 3/23/19 1:37 PM, Les Newell wrote:

Hi Andy,

(Which is based on BSD, so a Linux port would be easy, if they chose 
to do it)


Porting closed  source code to Linux is very difficult to do. Windows 


Is this a mailing list about LinuxCNC or windows crap?! I run "stock 
trading app" written in Java on Linux just fine. It's obvious the app is 
 mostly focused on Windows. It's very poorly designed based on what I 
see in html files, config, and logs because windows is their development 
platform but it still runs on Linux. I see people complaining about 
windows crashes on it's chat channel many times. Lost trade is a losing 
trade.


and Mac have consistent libraries. I can take a binary that was written 
for Win2K and run it on Win10. Conversely I can build a program in Win10 
that will run on Win2K (within certain limits). Linux keeps changing and 
binary compatibility is lousy. If I build an application on a current 


Extreme bull!

version of Linux it won't run on a distro that is even a few years 
older. An app built on Ubuntu probably won't work properly on Fedora. 
There are tricks to mitigate these issues but they all involve lots of 
work and don't provide a reliable solution.


Les


Unbelievable what speculations I have to read these days. No wonder the 
latest diaper generation is so confused about anything. I see them 
coming out of school and what they think they know.


There's so little progress in computer science and anything else since 
1980's PC. The most notable difference is we virtualize that hardware in 
software and keep throwing more Intel like CPU cores and RAM at it these 
days. I see it every day at work. Just look at an icon on typical app 
for saving your work.


--
Rafael


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[Emc-users] pololu breakout

[TJoseph Powderly]

Gregg Eshelman hello
Do you imagine the breakout to use the long legged dip raft ?
with added screw terminals ( maybe phoenix pluggable connectors ) ?

I imagine similar for the PICnc project
but
i think i will remove the dip sockets on main board
and add the phoenix style green sockets to the main board.

I know its a more universal fix to change the pololu style adapter
but its so much dead wood that i cant bear it ;-)

I think a non-dip-raft cramps ramps PICnc is simple cut editing for any 
open design.


tomp


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Re: [Emc-users] Wish me luck. I am downloading v.18 of freecad as src, gonna see if I can build a 32 bit version

[Chris Albertson]

Would be faster to dumpster dive a PC.   I doubt you'd ever get a modern
CAD app to compile on a small ARM-based board.   It would take weeks of work

Don't you have a good Linux PC with at least an i7 processor?  3D CAD, even
if you could get it to build on low-end hardware would be horrible to use.
   You want at least the i5, 4GB RAM and a 20" screen with a good GPU card.
   But even that would lag badly.  A newer quad core i7 is a better
processor.   You want the image to re-render nearly instantly, faster than
human reflexes can detect. Otherwise, you don't get smooth rotations.
To be usable the 3D model on the screen has to move as well as if you were
holding a physical model in your hand.  If the screen image lags detectably
it is unnatural to use.

CAD is one of the use cases that justify "workstation" class computers.
The other might be video editing and sound mixing or high-end video games.

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 6:39 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
>
> ___
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>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Wish me luck. I am downloading v.18 of freecad as src, gonna see if I can build a 32 bit version

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 March 2019 21:37:05 Gene Heskett wrote:

Too many missing or miss-matched name to name-dev bits an pieces. Often 
the file is newer than file-dev, which make very little sense???

So it doesn't appear to be buildable on an older 32 bit system.

> Cheers, Gene Heskett


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Wish me luck. I am downloading v.18 of freecad as src, gonna see if I can build a 32 bit version

[Przemek Klosowski]

GOod luck---this one uses a lot of libraries...

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 9:39 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
>
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>

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[Emc-users] Wish me luck. I am downloading v.18 of freecad as src, gonna see if I can build a 32 bit version

[Gene Heskett]

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Bruce Layne]

On 3/23/19 7:11 PM, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users wrote:
> Dunno why Microsoft cannot stop re-breaking things in Windows 10 after 
> they've fixed them. The RTM release had major problems with a large number of 
> laptop WiFi adapters. Took them almost a year to put out a fix, which they 
> had to make available for direct download both for RTM and the first update 
> build. Then Microsoft proceeded to re-break WiFi several more times until 
> they seem to have decide to quit mucking about and leave it alone.

It can probably be traced back to the open source IP stack that Windows
stole from FreeBSD 20 years ago.   :-)

https://betanews.com/2001/06/18/microsoft-we-use-freebsd






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Re: [Emc-users] EDA Software (Was: ConFusion 360)

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

What I've been wanting someone to make are screw terminal breakout boards for 
Pololu or StepStick sockets so that Step, Dir, Enable etc connections can be 
made to bigger external motor drivers from a CRAMPS, RAMPS and any other small 
control board made for use with those little drivers.
On Saturday, March 23, 2019, 3:39:54 PM MDT, andy pugh  
wrote:  
 
 On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 21:32, Jon Elson  wrote:

> I inherited the CRAMPS board from Charles Steinkuehler,
> which he designed in Kicad.  While Kicad is not quite up to
> the level of Protel99, it definitely is getting close.

The STMBL project uses KiCAD. (Though they started with Eagle I think)
As far as I know there haven't been any KiCAD-caused problems, but my
involvement is fairly peripheral.

(f you don't know, STMBL is pretty much the perfect retrofit brushless
servo drive, as it will accept nearly any type of motor feedback and
can drive both brushless PM and induction motors. It talks Mesa
smart-serial for an all-digital command and feedback loop, but can
also work with step-dir, RS232 etc)  
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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360 - distributing closed source code

[Les Newell]

Docker and appimage basically rely on packaging as many libraries as 
possible and hoping for the best. Even then if you rely on newer 
versions of libc or libstcc++ than your target distro you are SOL. If 
your application relies on C++11 or C++17 features you can't just build 
it on an old system to get around the problem.


I admit things are getting better for closed source in Linux but they 
are a long way from the sort of compatibility you get with Windows and 
Mac. Combine that with the relatively small percentage of users who run 
Linux and few software vendors are willing to make the needed investment.


Les


But today we use containers to be portable.The lightest weight one is a
Linux "appImage" that is like a MacOS app bundle.Both of these get
around the problem by including everything you need to run the app in the
bundle.Then there are real containers like Docker if you need to
distribute a complete environment and not just one app and then even
heavier containers like VMs where you distribute the entire OS as an
appliance that you can boot on a VM.




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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

If you have Windows 7 or 8 installed you can upgrade for free. Find the 
gatherosstate.exe file on the Windows 10 disc or ISO. Copy it to the desktop 
and run it. Copy the genuineticket file it creates somewhere off the computer. 
Now you can erase the installed Windows and do a clean install of 10. It's easy 
to find where to copy the genuineticket file to make 10 self activate.
Windows 10 will also directly accept many retail and OEM key codes for 7 and 8.
One recently introduced *gotcha* is starting with build 1607 of Windows 10, 
it's been deprecating older methods of driver signing, especially for video 
drivers. What happens is newer builds will allow the installer to run but will 
quietly block the driver files from installing. If you try to manually install 
the extracted files with Device Manager it will either lie to you with a claim 
of being unable to find the file it just found, or will BSOD.
As of build 1809 there's a workaround. Install Build 1511 and all the drivers, 
then upgrade to any build from 1607 through 1809. That will allow the 
"insecure" drivers to stay. No word on if the new major build to be released 
later this year will still do that.
There's a recently introduced bug in Windows 10 with some laptops. When 
returning from shutting off the display, sleeping, or hibernating, the screen 
is solid black except for the mouse pointer. The latest cumulative update for 
build 1809 addresses *some* of those issues but if you have an older laptop 
that shipped with Vista or 7 which has the black screen bug with build 1607 or 
later it may never get fixed. The workaround is to completely disable display 
off, sleep, and hibernate. I fixed up a Compaq NC8430 (shipped with 32bit Win7, 
I dropped in 4 gig, a 320 gig HD, and a Core 2 Duo to install Win 10 x64) that 
has this issue, along with having to do the 1511 then 1809 upgrade to get a 
proper video driver for the ATi Mobility Radeon X1600.
Dunno why Microsoft cannot stop re-breaking things in Windows 10 after they've 
fixed them. The RTM release had major problems with a large number of laptop 
WiFi adapters. Took them almost a year to put out a fix, which they had to make 
available for direct download both for RTM and the first update build. Then 
Microsoft proceeded to re-break WiFi several more times until they seem to have 
decide to quit mucking about and leave it alone.
On Saturday, March 23, 2019, 2:25:13 PM MDT, Chris Albertson 
 wrote:  
 
 On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 12:56 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 19:45, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, Fusion already runs on a Linux machine, Make a VM with Window
> 10
> > in the Linux computer then put Fusion on the VM.
>
> But how much does a Windows 10 Licence cost? It seems to be around
> £189 (for a full retail rathe than OEM version)
>

You can run Windows 10 for free and you don't need to pirate the software.
  It's
all above board.    Yuo can install Windows 10 from the Microsoft website.
then simply never "activate" it.    The only real difference between an
activated
and unactivated Wondows 10 is cosmetic.  The system will now and then ask
you to
activate it.  But it continues to run jst fine.  Yuo even get all the
software
security and feature updates    I even have some cloud stoarage
in Microft's system for One Note and some other data.

Microsoft's policies have changed qute a lot with their new CEO.

If you are willing to be slightly devious, Microsoft will give you a free
activated
copy of Windows 10 if you download it from their "accessibilty" web site.
They make Win 10 acailable to those who are disabled but do not ask for
proof or even
ask if you are in fact disabled.  So you get it with out having to enter
false information.

Then of cousre you can be dishonest and us any of the ba-zillian cracked
copies of Windows on the web.  But this is not legal even if it is common.

Your best bet is simply to not activate.  Microsoft is fine with this, but
they will nag you forever.








> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
> ___
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>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Greg Bernard]

Basically, it says if you download their 2019 Draftsight
version, you will no longer be able to use any older
version, and all free versions will cease to work after
12/31/2019.
They are not clear on what happens with Mac and Linux
versions, but it doesn't sound good.

I was all excited to hear about another CAD package that
works on Linux, but now I'm not sure I should waste time
learning about it.

It is indeed unclear. I would be unhappy about losing free access to
Draftsight but would grudgingly cough up the $99. If they discontinued the
Linux version I would be be devastated, though.
If you do have Autocad experience, you'll have no problem whatsoever with
Draftsight as it's practically a clone of Autocad. If that's the case,
you've got nothing to lose downloading it now and hoping you can keep it.

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 4:44 PM Jon Elson  wrote:

> On 03/23/2019 11:52 AM, Greg Bernard wrote:
> > Now that I'm retired and no longer have access to  Autocad I'm using
> > Draftsight for all of my 2d work which is practically indistinguishable
> > from Autocad with the advantage of being free and running on Linux.
> Wow, you need to read this web page :
>
> https://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight-cad-software/download-draftsight//
>
>
> Basically, it says if you download their 2019 Draftsight
> version, you will no longer be able to use any older
> version, and all free versions will cease to work after
> 12/31/2019.
> They are not clear on what happens with Mac and Linux
> versions, but it doesn't sound good.
>
> I was all excited to hear about another CAD package that
> works on Linux, but now I'm not sure I should waste time
> learning about it.
>
> Any comments are welcome.
>
> Jon
>
>
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-- 
"Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world
is either a madman or an economist."
-Kenneth Boulding, economist
Corporations are NOT people and money is NOT speech!

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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Lester Caine]

On 23/03/2019 21:30, Jon Elson wrote:
If you're trying EDA software, I found Kicad to be far easier to learn 
and use than Eagle or Geda - and it's quite powerful these days.


I still run an expensive licensed version of Protel99 SE. It has a few 
quirks, but is quite solid and the schematic vs. PCB checks are totally 
perfect.  Any weakness there can cost you serious $$$.


I inherited the CRAMPS board from Charles Steinkuehler, which he 
designed in Kicad.  While Kicad is not quite up to the level of 
Protel99, it definitely is getting close.  And, there has been a major 
rev update since I tried it, so it is likely even better.


Like TurboCAD I still have Easy-PC on the windows machine which is going 
to be a pig to port from, but those boards are unlikely to need any work 
before I finally get to retire and start playing properly :)


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
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Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 2:04 PM Greg Bernard  wrote:

> "The biggest problem with the beginners free trial is that its way too
> short, and a couple of them are downright insulting in their insistence
> to sell you a real licence when the 30 days has expired, Draftsight and
> Solidworks are both guilty of the extreme hard sell."



Fusion's is pretty fair.  You get to use it for free untill you are making
$50,000 per year.
They just take you word for it.   The idea is to be free fro students and
hobby users
ad small start up companies

I think they learns a lot with Autocad.   At one time Autocas was the
single most pirates
software.   At first Autodesk throught they were beibg ripped off, then got
smarter
and figured none of the pirated copies represented lost sales.  Those users
lacked
the means to pay.   So it was FAR better to let then user a pirated copy of
adutcad then to tell them to use a free competing program.   Allowing
everyone
and his brohter to use the pirat copy made then the industry standard.I
think
they are tryig to replicate this with Fusion 360 by giving it away to all
those
who can't pay for it.Then later when you are making $50K you can
certainly afford
a licences and they say most do in fact pay.   No one wants to base their
company
work flow aroubd perated software.

Solid works does nt need a generous trial period because Soldworks in
entrenced in the industry.
why would anyone need to try it?

What is so great is that even those of us at the low end with no budget can
use truely profesional
level design tools now. I can design a PCB that uses tiny SMD parts and
have it made for $2 thenplace it inside a
structure made of compound curesandhave all the screws line up and the
procees costsnext to nothing.



-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Jog pins not showing in HAL configuration

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 21:58, Dave Matthews  wrote:
>
> Thanks.  I guess the example I was watching is out of date.  Would
> that make halui.axis.x.minus and  halui.axis.x.plus the correct pins
> to use to implement jogging now?

You probably want to link to both the joint and the axis jog pins, if
you want to allow jogging in joint mode before homing. (And
specifically _not_ connect the joint jog pins to preclude that)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] Jog pins not showing in HAL configuration

[Dave Matthews]

Thanks.  I guess the example I was watching is out of date.  Would
that make halui.axis.x.minus and  halui.axis.x.plus the correct pins
to use to implement jogging now?

Dave

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 5:50 PM Dewey Garrett  wrote:
>
>
>
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/master/html/getting-started/updating-linuxcnc.html#_halui
> --
> Dewey Garrett
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Jog pins not showing in HAL configuration

[Dewey Garrett]

http://linuxcnc.org/docs/master/html/getting-started/updating-linuxcnc.html#_halui
-- 
Dewey Garrett



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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Jon Elson]

On 03/23/2019 11:52 AM, Greg Bernard wrote:

Now that I'm retired and no longer have access to  Autocad I'm using
Draftsight for all of my 2d work which is practically indistinguishable
from Autocad with the advantage of being free and running on Linux.

Wow, you need to read this web page :
https://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight-cad-software/download-draftsight//


Basically, it says if you download their 2019 Draftsight 
version, you will no longer be able to use any older 
version, and all free versions will cease to work after 
12/31/2019.
They are not clear on what happens with Mac and Linux 
versions, but it doesn't sound good.


I was all excited to hear about another CAD package that 
works on Linux, but now I'm not sure I should waste time 
learning about it.


Any comments are welcome.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Jog pins not showing in HAL configuration

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 21:39, andy pugh  wrote:

> Do you have any halui pins at all?

Ignore that last message, I just looked at the screenshot.

Are there any jog pins if you expand the "axis" and "joint' branches
of the pin name tree?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] Jog pins not showing in HAL configuration

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 21:32, Dave Matthews  wrote:
>
> I am trying to set up a custom panel with jog buttons.  When I tried
> to connect the buttons on the panel I got an error that
> halui.0.jog.minus was not found.  I looked and none of the jog pins
> are showing in the HAL configuration.

Do you have any halui pins at all? If not then it probably means that
you haven't loaded halui.

The [HAL] section of the INI needs HALUI = halui in it:

http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/config/ini-config.html#_hal_section

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] EDA Software (Was: ConFusion 360)

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 21:32, Jon Elson  wrote:

> I inherited the CRAMPS board from Charles Steinkuehler,
> which he designed in Kicad.  While Kicad is not quite up to
> the level of Protel99, it definitely is getting close.

The STMBL project uses KiCAD. (Though they started with Eagle I think)
As far as I know there haven't been any KiCAD-caused problems, but my
involvement is fairly peripheral.

(f you don't know, STMBL is pretty much the perfect retrofit brushless
servo drive, as it will accept nearly any type of motor feedback and
can drive both brushless PM and induction motors. It talks Mesa
smart-serial for an all-digital command and feedback loop, but can
also work with step-dir, RS232 etc)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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[Emc-users] Jog pins not showing in HAL configuration

[Dave Matthews]

I am trying to set up a custom panel with jog buttons.  When I tried
to connect the buttons on the panel I got an error that
halui.0.jog.minus was not found.  I looked and none of the jog pins
are showing in the HAL configuration.

The only pins with jog in them are axis and joint pins.
cncuser@Deb9CNC:~$ halcmd show pin halui* | grep jog
10  float IN0.2  halui.axis.jog-deadband
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.jog-speed
10  float IN0.2  halui.joint.jog-deadband
10  float IN  0  halui.joint.jog-speed

Version is LinuxCNC/AXIS version
2.8.0-pre1-4092-ge48135926

Attached are a screeshot of the HAL Configuration and the output of
halcmd show pin halui*.

Any suggestions on where to start looking?

Dave
LinuxCNC/AXIS version
2.8.0-pre1-4092-ge48135926

cncuser@Deb9CNC:~$ halcmd show pin halui* | grep jog
10  float IN0.2  halui.axis.jog-deadband
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.jog-speed
10  float IN0.2  halui.joint.jog-deadband
10  float IN  0  halui.joint.jog-speed
cncuser@Deb9CNC:~$ halcmd show pin halui*
Component Pins:
Owner   Type  Dir Value  Name
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.abort
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.a.analog
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.a.increment
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.a.increment-minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.a.increment-plus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.a.minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.a.plus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.a.select
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.b.analog
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.b.increment
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.b.increment-minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.b.increment-plus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.b.minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.b.plus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.b.select
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.c.analog
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.c.increment
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.c.increment-minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.c.increment-plus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.c.minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.c.plus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.c.select
10  float IN0.2  halui.axis.jog-deadband
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.jog-speed
10  u32   OUT0x  halui.axis.selected
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.selected.increment
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.selected.increment-minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.selected.increment-plus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.selected.minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.selected.plus
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.u.analog
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.u.increment
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.u.increment-minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.u.increment-plus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.u.minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.u.plus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.u.select
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.v.analog
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.v.increment
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.v.increment-minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.v.increment-plus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.v.minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.v.plus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.v.select
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.w.analog
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.w.increment
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.w.increment-minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.w.increment-plus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.w.minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.w.plus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.w.select
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.x.analog
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.x.increment
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.x.increment-minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.x.increment-plus
10  bit   OUT  TRUE  halui.axis.x.is-selected
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.x.minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.x.plus
10  float OUT 0  halui.axis.x.pos-commanded
10  float OUT 0  halui.axis.x.pos-feedback
10  float OUT 0  halui.axis.x.pos-relative
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.x.select
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.y.analog
10  float IN  0  halui.axis.y.increment
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.y.increment-minus
10  bit   IN  FALSE  halui.axis.y.increment-plus
10  bit   OUT FALSE  halui.axis.y.is-selected
10  bit   IN  FALSE  

Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Jon Elson]

On 03/23/2019 01:34 PM, Moses McKnight wrote:

On 3/23/19 1:16 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:


...  Gotta learn geda and friends I guess.


If you're trying EDA software, I found Kicad to be far 
easier to learn and use than Eagle or Geda - and it's 
quite powerful these days.


I still run an expensive licensed version of Protel99 SE.  
It has a few quirks, but is quite solid and the schematic 
vs. PCB checks are totally perfect.  Any weakness there can 
cost you serious $$$.


I inherited the CRAMPS board from Charles Steinkuehler, 
which he designed in Kicad.  While Kicad is not quite up to 
the level of Protel99, it definitely is getting close.  And, 
there has been a major rev update since I tried it, so it is 
likely even better.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Greg Bernard]

"The biggest problem with the beginners free trial is that its way too
short, and a couple of them are downright insulting in their insistence
to sell you a real licence when the 30 days has expired, Draftsight and
Solidworks are both guilty of the extreme hard sell."

I haven't found that true with Draftsight. I do get emails from them urging
me to upgrade which I simply ignore.

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 1:18 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Saturday 23 March 2019 13:47:27 Rafael Skodlar wrote:
>
> > On 3/22/19 2:14 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote:
> > > Anyone on here have opinions on Fusion 360 Cad/Cam by Autodesk?
> >
> > Opinions is one thing, experience is another. After few mentions about
> > Fusion on this mailing list in the past I briefly looked at it and
> > that was it. Anything from here is my _opinion_ based on a lot of
> > experience.
> >
> > Any engineer worth his keep ran CAD CAM programs on minicomputers of
> > some kind; Digital, HP, Silicon Graphics, Sun Microsystems. All that
> > kept healthy competition going until it became bastardized with ports
> > to Windows".
> > Anybody or a company that is so narrow minded to produce their
> > software product for one crappy OS is STUPID! They are under false
> > impression that "free software" is only free in terms of $$$ so
> > there's no money in it. Wrong! We proved this time and time again,
> > free software is free as freedom which is not necessarily absolutely
> > free and run if there is any grain of decency in for profit user.
> >
> > Last week of February this year I "celebrated my 25 years of Linux"
> > with creating a wiki page on internal site at work. In there I
> > described my experience and inserted numerous pictures of Linux
> > distributions I bought in the past. First was a set of 49 floppy disks
> > from Linux Systems Labs which besides at home, I also installed it at
> > National semiconductor as the first Linux server. That was running at
> > least two more years I was told after I left the company. Why stay
> > when the manager told me there is no future in Linux. She sent me to
> > "Windows 95 reeducation camp" in San Francisco that year.
> >
> > My Linux experience helped me find interesting jobs because I kept
> > supporting and studying it with buying 6CD set from ImageMagic,
> > Progeny Linux, Redhat, Mandrake, etc. and FreeBSD.
> >
> > I believe that if I use "free software" of some kind commercially I
> > have a moral obligation to contribute in some way and I encouraged
> > that at different work places. One of my managers approved purchasing
> > GNU package for Windows in late 90s.
> >
> > I would call "greedy bastard" anybody that would run a "(machine shop)
> > of some kind making huge profits with free software without providing
> > some kind of support to people that developed it. Send them $$$ or
> > invite them to your shop for consulting; travel expenses included.
> > That would give you bragging rights to advertise "We actively support
> > " on your main web page.
> >
> > A number of us, members of Silicon Valley Linux Users Group,
> > volunteered for years installing Linux on personal computers for those
> > who brought them to Linux Install-fest organized at Cisco, North San
> > Jose. This was a good will to software developers mainly so that they
> > would be encouraged to develop software for/on Linux platform.
> >
> > There is a number of good examples of software projects that started
> > as open source and evolved into commercially supported version with
> > proprietary enhancements only available for $$$. I have no problem
> > with that as long as the data and config file formats remain
> > compatible with free version.
> >
> Hear hear!
>
> > This kind of "business model" allows people to learn basics of a
> > software product for free then switch to commercial version (because
> > they know it) for profit.
>
> The biggest problem with the beginners free trial is that its way too
> short, and a couple of them are downright insulting in their insistence
> to sell you a real licence when the 30 days has expired, Draftsight and
> Solidworks are both guilty of the extreme hard sell.
>
> > My conclusion after reading long thread that grew out from "Fusion
> > 360" is ConFusion. Now I wonder about their Eagle acquisition also. "2
> > schematic sheets, 2 signal layers, and an 80cm2 board area." PCB with
> > 80cm2 only? Really?
> > Sorry, but Autodesk "embrace and extinguish" business model is not for
> > me.
>
> Aha, that explains why 7.2 files can no longer be loaded into 7.5, and
> while 7.5 looks a lot like 7.2, but its nowhere near 7.2's ability. Mass
> confusion is more like it. E.,E., & E. at work. Looking at the license,
> I've not bothered to DL anything newer. Talk about self inflicted foot
> wounds, theres an example.  Gotta learn geda and friends I guess.
>
> Thanks Rafael Skodlar
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. 

Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Lester Caine]

On 23/03/2019 15:26, Gene Heskett wrote:

Luverly. Good thing I'm not a job shop. One thing nice about LCNC,
clicking on that connectors first move in the backplot, highlights the
code line, making it easy to see where in a mass of code, that connector
exists. If its nothing but the hole size, a hand edit might be all thats
needed. But you knew that.:)   Sure helps to find that birch tree in a
forest of pines for me though.


Might well end up there anyway ... only complication 6 lines become 4 
but they are wrapped in z moves ;)


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk
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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

There are ways around this and it might make sense to distribute your
software in a portable way. Years ago "everything" was distributed as
source code file with instructions that read "edit the Makefile as required
then type "Make install" as root.Then we saw Autotools which could edit
the Makefile for you.

But today we use containers to be portable.The lightest weight one is a
Linux "appImage" that is like a MacOS app bundle.Both of these get
around the problem by including everything you need to run the app in the
bundle.Then there are real containers like Docker if you need to
distribute a complete environment and not just one app and then even
heavier containers like VMs where you distribute the entire OS as an
appliance that you can boot on a VM.

So it is possible to  distribute Linux apps in a manner that is portable
across most Linux systems.

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 1:39 PM Les Newell 
wrote:

> Hi Andy,
>
> > (Which is based on BSD, so a Linux port would be easy, if they chose
> > to do it)
>
> Porting closed  source code to Linux is very difficult to do. Windows
> and Mac have consistent libraries. I can take a binary that was written
> for Win2K and run it on Win10. Conversely I can build a program in Win10
> that will run on Win2K (within certain limits). Linux keeps changing and
> binary compatibility is lousy. If I build an application on a current
> version of Linux it won't run on a distro that is even a few years
> older. An app built on Ubuntu probably won't work properly on Fedora.
> There are tricks to mitigate these issues but they all involve lots of
> work and don't provide a reliable solution.
>
> Les
>
>
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Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Les Newell]

Hi Andy,

(Which is based on BSD, so a Linux port would be easy, if they chose 
to do it)


Porting closed  source code to Linux is very difficult to do. Windows 
and Mac have consistent libraries. I can take a binary that was written 
for Win2K and run it on Win10. Conversely I can build a program in Win10 
that will run on Win2K (within certain limits). Linux keeps changing and 
binary compatibility is lousy. If I build an application on a current 
version of Linux it won't run on a distro that is even a few years 
older. An app built on Ubuntu probably won't work properly on Fedora. 
There are tricks to mitigate these issues but they all involve lots of 
work and don't provide a reliable solution.


Les


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 12:56 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 19:45, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, Fusion already runs on a Linux machine, Make a VM with Window
> 10
> > in the Linux computer then put Fusion on the VM.
>
> But how much does a Windows 10 Licence cost? It seems to be around
> £189 (for a full retail rathe than OEM version)
>

You can run Windows 10 for free and you don't need to pirate the software.
  It's
all above board.Yuo can install Windows 10 from the Microsoft website.
then simply never "activate" it.The only real difference between an
activated
and unactivated Wondows 10 is cosmetic.  The system will now and then ask
you to
activate it.   But it continues to run jst fine.  Yuo even get all the
software
security and feature updatesI even have some cloud stoarage
in Microft's system for One Note and some other data.

Microsoft's policies have changed qute a lot with their new CEO.

If you are willing to be slightly devious, Microsoft will give you a free
activated
copy of Windows 10 if you download it from their "accessibilty" web site.
They make Win 10 acailable to those who are disabled but do not ask for
proof or even
ask if you are in fact disabled.   So you get it with out having to enter
false information.

Then of cousre you can be dishonest and us any of the ba-zillian cracked
copies of Windows on the web.  But this is not legal even if it is common.

Your best bet is simply to not activate.  Microsoft is fine with this, but
they will nag you forever.








> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Bruce Layne]

On 3/23/19 12:52 PM, Greg Bernard wrote:
> As an Autocad user for 25 years, I can say the issue of file formats not
> being backward compatible is really not a significant problem. All Autocad
> versions have the option of saving the file in an older .dwg or .dxf
> format. There may be some minor problems with formatting of dimensions,
> etc. but when they do occur it's usually not a big deal to correct them.

DXF export may be true of AutoCAD but it was not the case with the ill
fated AutoSketch which would export a DWG so I could start leasing
AutoCAD, or some version of DXF that I was never able to import into
anything.

AutoDesk had a reputation of creating the industry "standard" DXF format
so they could control it.  In theory, it was a standard file format that
allowed CAD data to be interchanged between all CAD programs.  That
seems like a very user oriented concept.  However, the DXF "standard"
was anything but a standard.  It was extremely problematic when I tried
to use it.  AutoCAD competitors inevitably had data import menus that
listed six different versions of the DXF "standard" depending on which
version of AutoCAD exported the DXF, and very often, none of them would
work.  The numerous versions of DXF files also made it very difficult
for CAD developers to know which version to use for exporting.  When I
last looked a dozen years ago, I think the other companies had finally
standardized on one version of the DXF "standard" to use, but there was
still some lingering confusion.  To this day, LibreCAD can export to DXF
R12, DXF R14, DXF 2000, DXF 2004, and DXF 2007.  I can only assume that
AutoDesk loves standards because they created so many of them.   :-/

It could be argued that a bad industry standard from the dominant
manufacturer greatly delayed the development of a true industry standard
for CAD data and hindered data exchange to protect market share.

In order to ensure compatibility, most commercial CAD manufacturers were
forced to give up and pay AutoDesk to license the proprietary DWG
format.  That wasn't an option for open source software because it's
free as in "free beer" so there wasn't money to pay AutoDesk, and it's
free as in "free speech" so it couldn't incorporate licensed proprietary
software.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoCAD_DXF

/"As AutoCAD has become more powerful, supporting more complex
object types, DXF has become less useful. Certain object types,
including //ACIS//solids and regions, are not documented. Other
object types, including AutoCAD 2006's dynamic blocks, and all of
the objects specific to the //vertical market//versions of AutoCAD,
are partially documented, but not well enough to allow other
developers to support them. For these reasons many CAD applications
use the //DWG//format which can be licensed from //Autodesk//or
non-natively from the //Open Design Alliance//." /

Microsoft has engaged in similar proprietary data strategies.  Every
year or two, there would be a new version of Word, and it would read
files from the last version or two, but no others.  Toward the end,
there was only the pretense of new features in their mature word
processing and spreadsheet products.  The "upgrades" were nothing but
designed inoperability to force the market to buy new software as soon
as customers could no longer exchange files.  Meanwhile, LibreOffice
Writer and LibreOffice Calc can import every version of Open Document
file ever used.  100% backward compatibility, without the need to try
different import filters.

I have no problem paying for commercial software that makes my life
easier, but I don't like being forced to buy software that makes my life
more difficult by deliberately rendering my data useless to me unless I
pay their annual extortion fees.



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Re: [Emc-users] problem DH parameters manipulator arm

[Chris Albertson]

The problem to besolvedis that you need both forward and inverse kinematics.

Forward is where you have a set of joint angles and you want to know the
location and orientation of the end of the arm.This is easy for most
people who still remember trigonometry from high school.   If not go to Khan
Academy    And scroll down past
"first-grade math" to trig and linear algebra and differential equations
and sign up for whatever free classes you need.These are really good,
first tier level online classes.

Inverse is much harder.  THis is where you have the desired position and
orientation for the arm and yu want to knw the joint angles.   Many times
there are multiple solutions.Then, many times you want to maintain a
specified velocity or acceleration and you need to know the first and
second derivatives o the inverse kinematics.re-inventing this is really
hard unless you are using amachinewith triveal kinematics like most machine
tools.   But a 6 or 7 DOF arm is non-trivial.

That said, you have a textbook arm and you can find papers describing the
kinematics of palletizing robot arms were someone works out the math for
you.


That said, I still think the world to joint space conversion and motion
planning needs to be done in software that can "know" more about the world,
especially about obstacles such as pats and fixtures.  Arms can not move
through the parts you are trying to lift, so the planner needs to know
about the parts.   I'd to the joint-space control in something like MK and
the planning in something like Moveit.   Palletizing on not unlike "pick
and place"  in that not every object you lift is at some exact location so
moton must be planned in real-time.

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 4:47 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 00:45, yomin estiven jaramillo munera
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi chris, i would like ask you something, based on you said , I need to
> > figure out how my elbow angle is moved in function to my base angle, and
> > after this i will need to add this function to my kinematics file, in
> that
> > case i would be using the DH parameters so, i should modificate
> genserkins,
> > shouldn't I?
>
> You don't have to use DH parameters or any matrix maths if you don't want
> to.
>
> You could just use everyday trigonometry, especially as your robot
> seems to work largely in a single plane.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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>


-- 

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Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 19:45, Chris Albertson  wrote:
>
> Actually, Fusion already runs on a Linux machine, Make a VM with Window 10
> in the Linux computer then put Fusion on the VM.

But how much does a Windows 10 Licence cost? It seems to be around
£189 (for a full retail rathe than OEM version)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

Actually, Fusion already runs on a Linux machine, Make a VM with Window 10
in the Linux computer then put Fusion on the VM.   It runs very close to
native speed.   I was able to get an older copy of Mac OS to run on the VM
under Linux but it was not practical, only useful for saying "look at this"
but Windows 10 under Linux is 100% usable and a supported use case.

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 12:33 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 17:49, Rafael Skodlar  wrote:
>
> > Anybody or a company that is so narrow minded to produce their software
> > product for one crappy OS is STUPID!
>
> Fusion also runs on Mac OS.
>
> (Which is based on BSD, so a Linux port would be easy, if they chose to do
> it)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

I second that.   Eagle used to be the only one that was stable and had a
decent library.  Then KiCAD gained a source of development funding with
CERN (yhe European physics lab) and they added some paid developers
and KiCAD "took off".   They leap frogged Eagle in only a couple years.

But Eagle was stangnating and not being developed formany years, then
Autodesk bought Eagle and now Eagle has a billion dollar company funding
further development.

Autodesk's stated goal is to closly integrate Eagle with Fusion because they
say (and I agree) that modern products are a combination of hardware and
circuits.I very good example is a cell phone or a video camera or a
notebook
computer.  these are the kinds of products people buld and sell now.

I thought this know of integrated electronics/mechanics was not for
hobbyists but then
I find I'm doing it even in prototypes.  I just made a crash bumper for
acrobat with
integrated micro-switches and hardware switch debouncing.   It is a very
simple
device, not unlike the "home" switch on a mill  Just switches, an RC
filters and diode
and come connectors but non the less it is integrated mechanical/electronics
with electronics, springs and hard and rubber parts.   All so a little
machine can
stop if it collides with a wall or someone's foot.

That said, I move other to KiCad a while back. I and can export and import
PCB models,
Yes integrated would be nice but i don't chance PCBs that often.




On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 11:52 AM Moses McKnight  wrote:

> On 3/23/19 1:16 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> > ...  Gotta learn geda and friends I guess.
>
> If you're trying EDA software, I found Kicad to be far easier to learn and
> use
> than Eagle or Geda - and it's quite powerful these days.
>
> Moses
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 17:49, Rafael Skodlar  wrote:

> Anybody or a company that is so narrow minded to produce their software
> product for one crappy OS is STUPID!

Fusion also runs on Mac OS.

(Which is based on BSD, so a Linux port would be easy, if they chose to do it)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Moses McKnight]

On 3/23/19 1:16 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:


...  Gotta learn geda and friends I guess.


If you're trying EDA software, I found Kicad to be far easier to learn and use 
than Eagle or Geda - and it's quite powerful these days.


Moses


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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 10:56 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:

>
> I've downloaded that latest freecad-0.17, but its 64 bit and this is a 32
> bit install, so the best thing I might try is to go fire up a rock64,
> which is stretch on arm64 with 4 gb of dram, 60 GB of SSD and see how it
> works there.
>

Is their AppImage file compiled for ARM? I think it's for Intel X86.   You
would need to compile from source.Ihave doubts that any modern
3D system would run fast enogh on one of those little single board
computers.  Try it ona modern PC first.

-- 

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Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 March 2019 13:47:27 Rafael Skodlar wrote:

> On 3/22/19 2:14 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote:
> > Anyone on here have opinions on Fusion 360 Cad/Cam by Autodesk?
>
> Opinions is one thing, experience is another. After few mentions about
> Fusion on this mailing list in the past I briefly looked at it and
> that was it. Anything from here is my _opinion_ based on a lot of
> experience.
>
> Any engineer worth his keep ran CAD CAM programs on minicomputers of
> some kind; Digital, HP, Silicon Graphics, Sun Microsystems. All that
> kept healthy competition going until it became bastardized with ports
> to Windows".
> Anybody or a company that is so narrow minded to produce their
> software product for one crappy OS is STUPID! They are under false
> impression that "free software" is only free in terms of $$$ so
> there's no money in it. Wrong! We proved this time and time again,
> free software is free as freedom which is not necessarily absolutely
> free and run if there is any grain of decency in for profit user.
>
> Last week of February this year I "celebrated my 25 years of Linux"
> with creating a wiki page on internal site at work. In there I
> described my experience and inserted numerous pictures of Linux
> distributions I bought in the past. First was a set of 49 floppy disks
> from Linux Systems Labs which besides at home, I also installed it at
> National semiconductor as the first Linux server. That was running at
> least two more years I was told after I left the company. Why stay
> when the manager told me there is no future in Linux. She sent me to
> "Windows 95 reeducation camp" in San Francisco that year.
>
> My Linux experience helped me find interesting jobs because I kept
> supporting and studying it with buying 6CD set from ImageMagic,
> Progeny Linux, Redhat, Mandrake, etc. and FreeBSD.
>
> I believe that if I use "free software" of some kind commercially I
> have a moral obligation to contribute in some way and I encouraged
> that at different work places. One of my managers approved purchasing
> GNU package for Windows in late 90s.
>
> I would call "greedy bastard" anybody that would run a "(machine shop)
> of some kind making huge profits with free software without providing
> some kind of support to people that developed it. Send them $$$ or
> invite them to your shop for consulting; travel expenses included.
> That would give you bragging rights to advertise "We actively support
> " on your main web page.
>
> A number of us, members of Silicon Valley Linux Users Group,
> volunteered for years installing Linux on personal computers for those
> who brought them to Linux Install-fest organized at Cisco, North San
> Jose. This was a good will to software developers mainly so that they
> would be encouraged to develop software for/on Linux platform.
>
> There is a number of good examples of software projects that started
> as open source and evolved into commercially supported version with
> proprietary enhancements only available for $$$. I have no problem
> with that as long as the data and config file formats remain
> compatible with free version.
>
Hear hear!

> This kind of "business model" allows people to learn basics of a
> software product for free then switch to commercial version (because
> they know it) for profit.

The biggest problem with the beginners free trial is that its way too 
short, and a couple of them are downright insulting in their insistence 
to sell you a real licence when the 30 days has expired, Draftsight and 
Solidworks are both guilty of the extreme hard sell.

> My conclusion after reading long thread that grew out from "Fusion
> 360" is ConFusion. Now I wonder about their Eagle acquisition also. "2
> schematic sheets, 2 signal layers, and an 80cm2 board area." PCB with
> 80cm2 only? Really?
> Sorry, but Autodesk "embrace and extinguish" business model is not for
> me.

Aha, that explains why 7.2 files can no longer be loaded into 7.5, and 
while 7.5 looks a lot like 7.2, but its nowhere near 7.2's ability. Mass 
confusion is more like it. E.,E., & E. at work. Looking at the license, 
I've not bothered to DL anything newer. Talk about self inflicted foot 
wounds, theres an example.  Gotta learn geda and friends I guess.

Thanks Rafael Skodlar

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 1:13 AM  wrote:

> I am still using Inventor 2011. Yes; it took a while to get to grips
> with it, but it's very capable. I have 2014 but have never installed
> it (always seem to be waiting for a newer computer). Inventor has
> become Fusion 360 now, so there seems little point in upgrading
> Inventor itself. There is no CAM element to Inventor 2011, so models
> are exported as STEP files, then imported into Vectric's  VCarve Pro
> if they are to be milled, or Repetier if they are to be 3D printed.
>
>  I think any capable 3D CAD/CAM program will take a bit of learning,
> and for me the big step was learning to think in 3D. I have found the
> process requires me to think more about how to manufacture the object,
> than simply to draw it. The most challenging part has been learning
> how to create objects with complex angles between different planes,
> which I need for drawing large moulding tools.Strangely, although I
> know how to do classic pencil-and-paper technical drawing, I found
> AutoCAD quite frustrating to use, and 3D drawing much more liberating
> once I got going. Inventor is based on the AutoCAD engine, but you
> would never know it from using Inventor.



 I think the best opservation is tha with these 3D modelers we lrsn to
think differently.  We stop thinking about drawings that are on paper
and more about the product and it's 3D shape.For example I want
to make a mount for asmall gear motor.  I make the exterior then Iuse
a CAD model of the motor as a "cutting tool" and place it where it goes
relative to the mount then tell fusion to "cut away" all the mout meterial
the in inside the motor's exterior surface. Then make bolt holes that
fit the motor's from mounting holes.   THis isnot drawing a part it is
making a model of the part.   Ideas like using an 3D part like a motor
of even a screwas acuting toolis forign tomost draftsmen



Invetor is AutoDesk's mature 3D modeler.  It has been around for a while is
is well used in indutry.   Itcompetes with Soild Works for beibg the
industyr
leader. Fusion is the New Guy and I don't think is was based on Inventor
but many ideas much from it.  Fusion does both more and less then
Invetor.

Buy Inveter and Solid works come withvery hefty (four digit)  prices while
Fusion 360 is free for small-time users. and comes with built-in CAM that
can make g-code for mills and lathes and has very good integertion with
a couple slicers for printing.







>
> I have tried many of the free programs, but they vary too much in both
> approach to the task and in real capability to make much impression on
> me. If I can't get my head around how the programmer thinks about 3D
> objects, I find it difficult to use the program. TinkerCAD for 3D
> printing is a classic example. I have a friend nearby who creates all
> manner of things in TinkerCAD. I can barely draw a square with a hole
> in the middle, because I don't think about 3D objects in the same way
> as the programmer did when creating the interface. That's strange,
> because TinkerCAD is based on the  Inventor engine (which, like the
> Russian dolls, is based on AutoCAD...).
> As an aside, my final year project at University, a very long time
> ago, was creating a program to produce a drawing of interpenetrating
> pipes, and a layout drawing for heavy steel sheet to be cut then
> rolled into pipes for oil rig legs. The others in my yeargroup were
> working on other aspects of drawing on a computer; all of which was
> new in those early days. It was all based on a mathematical approach
> to classic 2D drawing techniques. So its a source of joy and wonder to
> me that we have such capable 3D  CAD/CAM software nowadays. It makes
> workshop life so much more interesting.
> One other aspect from those early days, was a procedure for generating
> two photos of a drawing on a flat monitor screen. The camera took two
> photos simultaneously but from two different angles, 5 degrees apart.
> The resultant images were loaded into a ViewMaster type of slide
> projector, and produced a 3D image of the object. Where are you now,
> Occulus??? That was in 1974.
>
> I signed up for Fusion360 (free version) a long time ago, but need  a
> decent  64-bit machine to be able to run it, so that will have to
> wait.
>
> I also signed up for OnShape, but that would not run on my Mac or on
> any of my (slightly older) PCs. I don't know anyone who is using that
> software, and my impression is that their 'free' business model didn't
> last terribly long.
>
> I tried SolidWorks a long time ago, and went to a demo/workshop
> session. I could understand how to use the program (based on my
> experience with Inventor) but the licence was way more expensive than
> a full-price Inventor licence, and the ongoing costs were not
> inconsiderable, so I left that alone.
>
> I think that as far as CAD/CAM programs go, you get what you pay for.
> Or maybe the capability of Inventor has spoiled me.
> The free licence 

Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 March 2019 12:03:19 Les Newell wrote:

> With CAM you need to develop a different mind set. You are now
> programming with your drawing and CAM setup, not G-code. The G-code
> the becomes purely a way for the CAM to talk to your machine. It
> doesn't matter if you have 10 lines or 1 lines. You can in theory
> do your drawings by directly writing DXF files. They are a human
> readable text format. However very few people do it that way. You have
> treat G-code in the same way. As long as the CAM is reasonably
> competent you can pretty much forget about the code.
>
> The majority of SheetCam users have only a vague idea what g-code is
> and certainly couldn't do much programming with it.
>
> Les
>
Wrong Les, my mistake as I was replying to Lester Caine. :)

But I think that last line about sheetcam users is a shame. gcode is 
where the cutter meets the cutted, and you can't get much closer than 
that.

OTOH, the higher level stuff lets you concentrate more on the artistic 
aspects as the math is being done for you, so I imagine it balances out, 
possibly in favor of the artistry when looking at the accounts 
receivable if the design package allows that. I get the impression there 
isn't room in some packages for the artistry of what the composer is 
seeing in his head.

At some point the expenditure of the composing machines cpu cycles 
becomes less important than the wall time. Particularly so if the wall 
time is reduced enough to pay for the license.

I've downloaded that latest freecad-0.17, but its 64 bit and this is a 32 
bit install, so the best thing I might try is to go fire up a rock64, 
which is stretch on arm64 with 4 gb of dram, 60 GB of SSD and see how it 
works there.

That might take a trip to wallies for some net cable, as that cable is 
now hooked to the old HF mills computer, and a shorter cable would reach 
it from the garages switch just fine.

I found the learning curve pretty vertical the last time I tried .14 on 
this machine, and combined with a lack of stability, nuked it as not 
being worth the effort to learn. Probably mostly my fault, old dogs, new 
tricks syndrome at its worst. But I can't seem to get away from the fact 
that this wet ram /is/ 84 years old, and has survived a couple attempts 
to get shut down now, each of which has had its cost.

Thanks Les Newell

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Rafael Skodlar]

On 3/22/19 2:14 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote:

Anyone on here have opinions on Fusion 360 Cad/Cam by Autodesk?



Opinions is one thing, experience is another. After few mentions about 
Fusion on this mailing list in the past I briefly looked at it and that 
was it. Anything from here is my _opinion_ based on a lot of experience.


Any engineer worth his keep ran CAD CAM programs on minicomputers of 
some kind; Digital, HP, Silicon Graphics, Sun Microsystems. All that 
kept healthy competition going until it became bastardized with ports to 
Windows".
Anybody or a company that is so narrow minded to produce their software 
product for one crappy OS is STUPID! They are under false impression 
that "free software" is only free in terms of $$$ so there's no money in 
it. Wrong! We proved this time and time again, free software is free as 
freedom which is not necessarily absolutely free and run if there is any 
grain of decency in for profit user.


Last week of February this year I "celebrated my 25 years of Linux" with 
creating a wiki page on internal site at work. In there I described my 
experience and inserted numerous pictures of Linux distributions I 
bought in the past. First was a set of 49 floppy disks from Linux 
Systems Labs which besides at home, I also installed it at National 
semiconductor as the first Linux server. That was running at least two 
more years I was told after I left the company. Why stay when the 
manager told me there is no future in Linux. She sent me to "Windows 95 
reeducation camp" in San Francisco that year.


My Linux experience helped me find interesting jobs because I kept 
supporting and studying it with buying 6CD set from ImageMagic, Progeny 
Linux, Redhat, Mandrake, etc. and FreeBSD.


I believe that if I use "free software" of some kind commercially I have 
a moral obligation to contribute in some way and I encouraged that at 
different work places. One of my managers approved purchasing GNU 
package for Windows in late 90s.


I would call "greedy bastard" anybody that would run a "(machine shop) 
of some kind making huge profits with free software without providing 
some kind of support to people that developed it. Send them $$$ or 
invite them to your shop for consulting; travel expenses included. That 
would give you bragging rights to advertise "We actively support 
" on your main web page.


A number of us, members of Silicon Valley Linux Users Group, volunteered 
for years installing Linux on personal computers for those who brought 
them to Linux Install-fest organized at Cisco, North San Jose. This was 
a good will to software developers mainly so that they would be 
encouraged to develop software for/on Linux platform.


There is a number of good examples of software projects that started as 
open source and evolved into commercially supported version with 
proprietary enhancements only available for $$$. I have no problem with 
that as long as the data and config file formats remain compatible with 
free version.


This kind of "business model" allows people to learn basics of a 
software product for free then switch to commercial version (because 
they know it) for profit.


My conclusion after reading long thread that grew out from "Fusion 360" 
is ConFusion. Now I wonder about their Eagle acquisition also. "2 
schematic sheets, 2 signal layers, and an 80cm2 board area." PCB with 
80cm2 only? Really?

Sorry, but Autodesk "embrace and extinguish" business model is not for me.

--
Rafael Skodlar


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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Greg Bernard]

As an Autocad user for 25 years, I can say the issue of file formats not
being backward compatible is really not a significant problem. All Autocad
versions have the option of saving the file in an older .dwg or .dxf
format. There may be some minor problems with formatting of dimensions,
etc. but when they do occur it's usually not a big deal to correct them.
Now that I'm retired and no longer have access to  Autocad I'm using
Draftsight for all of my 2d work which is practically indistinguishable
from Autocad with the advantage of being free and running on Linux.


On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 9:37 PM Jon Elson  wrote:

> On 03/22/2019 05:46 PM, Bruce Layne wrote:
> >AutoDesk had done that to me before.  They sold me on
> > AutoSketch which, as an electrical engineer was all of the mechanical
> > CAD software I'd need.  Then they discontinued AutoSketch at the moment
> > that I learned enough to be productive and unilaterally converted my
> > license to an AutoCAD Lite license.  AutoCAD Lite required a completely
> > new learning curve, so I was forced to start over.
> And, this is why I will NEVER trust Autocad!  They've done
> this several times over the years, as well as making sure
> that documents created today cannot be read on last year's
> version of the software.  That REALLY bugs me!
>
> Jon
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Les Newell]

With CAM you need to develop a different mind set. You are now 
programming with your drawing and CAM setup, not G-code. The G-code the 
becomes purely a way for the CAM to talk to your machine. It doesn't 
matter if you have 10 lines or 1 lines. You can in theory do your 
drawings by directly writing DXF files. They are a human readable text 
format. However very few people do it that way. You have treat G-code in 
the same way. As long as the CAM is reasonably competent you can pretty 
much forget about the code.


The majority of SheetCam users have only a vague idea what g-code is and 
certainly couldn't do much programming with it.


Les



One thing I've noted in compareing code generator outputs to the hand
coded stuff I write is that generated stuff never uses a subroutine but
unrolls a 150 line file into 600,000 lines. And that makes finding and
correcting something virtually a start from scratch operation. Not at
all efficient IMO. It all depends on how one thinks about code flow,
basicly what works for the individual coder. Will gcode generators ever
get that smart? Doubtfull, until it also has a lot of so far very time
squandering AI. But so as I know, no one has succeeded in downloading a
brain into a computer.

I'd much rather write a subroutine to drill a hole, and use it for every
hole in a part by changing the parameters passed to that subroutine.

Your own lathe encoder disk is a good example of applying that
discipline, I've made liberal use of that code with my own mods.  Thank
you very much.

Take care Les.

Cheers, Gene Heskett





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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 14:58, Tom Easterday  wrote:

> Yes, the no, low cost license could change (though Autodesk has repeatedly 
> said it won’t) and you’d have a lot of work into
> Fusion which you’d have to convert, but this is true with any package.  
> Alibre/Geomagic was on the brink of obliteration and
>  only recovered because some past employees realized there was value about to 
> be lost.  I had a ton of work there.

I used to use Alibre (quite a while ago). I was using a free version,
and they withdrew that license, leaving me with no way to
access my models. So it definitely can happen.
That was when I switched to Inventor,  having found that I could get a
free home license because I have a licence at work.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 March 2019 10:12:53 Lester Caine wrote:

> On 23/03/2019 13:59, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > How are you getting the gcode? Its not yet listed as an export
> > option.
>
> The path workdesk has a process much like sorting out paths on
> Vcarve/Cut2D once you have set up a job to build and sorted out
> cutters. But while I know one can select and view each set of gcode I
> forget quite how I got it onto the memory stick. And I need to
> remember as I need to get some DMSuper cases machined and need to
> change the hole for the mains connector :( The old mains assembly is
> no longer available.

Luverly. Good thing I'm not a job shop. One thing nice about LCNC, 
clicking on that connectors first move in the backplot, highlights the 
code line, making it easy to see where in a mass of code, that connector 
exists. If its nothing but the hole size, a hand edit might be all thats 
needed. But you knew that. :)  Sure helps to find that birch tree in a 
forest of pines for me though.

One thing I've noted in compareing code generator outputs to the hand 
coded stuff I write is that generated stuff never uses a subroutine but 
unrolls a 150 line file into 600,000 lines. And that makes finding and 
correcting something virtually a start from scratch operation. Not at 
all efficient IMO. It all depends on how one thinks about code flow, 
basicly what works for the individual coder. Will gcode generators ever 
get that smart? Doubtfull, until it also has a lot of so far very time 
squandering AI. But so as I know, no one has succeeded in downloading a 
brain into a computer.

I'd much rather write a subroutine to drill a hole, and use it for every 
hole in a part by changing the parameters passed to that subroutine.

Your own lathe encoder disk is a good example of applying that 
discipline, I've made liberal use of that code with my own mods.  Thank 
you very much.

Take care Les.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Tom Easterday]

I have been running Fusion 360 for several years now.  Before that I used 
Alibre Design/Geomagic (I still own but rarely use Alibre).  I have hundreds of 
models, drawings and complex assemblies in Fusion 360.  I have used SolidWorks 
as well as a couple other CAD packages in years past.  Fusion 360 is very 
similar to Alibre and SolidWorks and others.  If you are comfortable in one of 
those the learning curve is minimal.  Yes, menus and tools are in different 
places but overall the concepts and tools are very similar.  

Fusion 360 also allows for a very flexible design philosophy unlike other 
packages that have a strict model of design.  You can build top down assemblies 
in Fusion where you begin building each part as part of the entire assembly.  
This is very powerful.  But,  if you want to build individual parts and 
assemble them later you can do that too.  I have both types of builds in my 
workspace.  Other CAD software it not this flexible making you adhere to a 
strict bottom up design methodology.  

I realize that some people are morally opposed to cloud based software.  I 
respect that opinion and if that is your bottom line Fusion 360 may not be for 
you.  But, as cloud based software goes Fusion 360 is the least “cloud based” 
cloud based software.  The Fusion 360 application runs on your local cpu, not 
in the cloud, so you can use it even if you don’t have a connection to the 
internet for a period of time.  You can also save your designs locally on your 
hard drive.

The CAM and FEA built into Fusion is what initially sold me on it.  It has very 
powerful CAM and FEA features built in.  The CAM is a subset of HSM Works CAM 
which Autodesk purchased a number of years ago.  It also has surface modeling 
as well as sheet metal (fairly new).

Fusion 360 isn’t perfect.  There are many things missing that I wish it had.  I 
wish Autodesk was faster at implementing features.  There is a large user base 
and it is actively developed so things do get done eventually. There are a huge 
number of free tutorials on YouTube and an active forum with advanced users and 
Autodesk employees answering questions so anything you ask will likely be 
answered in a day or so.   Yes, the no, low cost license could change (though 
Autodesk has repeatedly said it won’t) and you’d have a lot of work into Fusion 
which you’d have to convert, but this is true with any package.  
Alibre/Geomagic was on the brink of obliteration and only recovered because 
some past employees realized there was value about to be lost.  I had a ton of 
work there.  I was successful in converting my important work in Alibre over to 
Fusion 360 as it looked more and more likely that Geomagic was about to die.   
This is part of the reason I have all but abandoned Alibre.   I paid Alibre 
$1200 for the software and $400/yr for several years and what security did that 
buy me?  None.

Someone wrote:
> I have no interest in AutoDesk's proprietary Fusion 360 file format that
> uses the files that I create to hold me hostage.  I have even less
> interest in sharing my data on their cloud.

All CAD programs use a proprietary file format.  All of them.  If you are “held 
hostage” by Autodesk then so you are by SolidWorks, Alibre, Creo, etc etc.  The 
better ones (including Fusion 360) have good file conversion utilities that let 
you save your designs out in other formats, both standard (step, iges, dxf) and 
proprietary (sldprt, etc).  I have sent both SolidWorks and Step conversions of 
my Fusion 360 models to my customers who have had no issue importing and using 
them.

Also, your data saved on Autodesk servers is not “shared” unless you want it to 
be.  

Fusion 360 is by far the best value out there in the cad/cam world.  You can 
get a no cost startup license, seems like a no brainer to try it out, IMHO.

Sorry for the long post, I didn’t start out to write this much... I do not work 
for Autodesk or affiliates, I’m just a (mostly) satisfied user.
-Tom




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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Lester Caine]

On 23/03/2019 13:59, Gene Heskett wrote:

How are you getting the gcode? Its not yet listed as an export option.
The path workdesk has a process much like sorting out paths on 
Vcarve/Cut2D once you have set up a job to build and sorted out cutters. 
But while I know one can select and view each set of gcode I forget 
quite how I got it onto the memory stick. And I need to remember as I 
need to get some DMSuper cases machined and need to change the hole for 
the mains connector :( The old mains assembly is no longer available.


--
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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 March 2019 04:21:22 Lester Caine wrote:

> On 23/03/2019 02:56, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Friday 22 March 2019 18:52:54 Lester Caine wrote:
> >> On 22/03/2019 22:46, Bruce Layne wrote:
> >>> I use FreeCAD, mostly for 3D printing.  It's still not ready for
> >>> prime time and doesn't have a usable CAM system so it's not a
> >>> possible replacement for Fusion 360, but it's a viable CAD option
> >>> for me when Fusion 360 isn't.
> >>
> >> Sorry I have to disagree with that ... I'm running perfectly good
> >> gcode for the Taig mill from FreeCAD. Yes for 3D printing one of
> >> the other slicer options is required, but for 2.5D machining it
> >> works well enough and is improving all the time.

How are you getting the gcode? Its not yet listed as an export option.

> > If its being improved Lester, why has the downloadable been stuck at
> > version .14 for several years? I take it back, the last 32 bit
> > release that will run on the wheezy LiveCD install is .14, but I see
> > .17 is available for 64 bit installs now. So you have to reboot to a
> > 64 bit install to use it.  Is it worth setting up a dual boot?
>
> Actually I'm running 0.17 on the main linux desktop as the SUSE
> experimental load of 0.18 screws up other CAD and graphics related
> stuff on Leap15.0. 0.18 is running on my windows machine with Vcarve
> and TurboCAD and installed without a problem. I dropped KiCAD onto the
> windows machine as well so I could play with the recent 'paid for' job
> and while not totally smooth, I had models of the folded sheet metal
> around the PCB along with a flattened out version for the laser ...
> but it ended up being punched out on a CNC punch ... so I did not see
> the gcode for that. The final box was perfect.
>
> My next job is to get the 3D printer hooked up to the BBB/CRAMPS board
> and MachineKit driving it. Although I may get the lathe finally hooked
> up first since the the proprietary control does work. Just can't add
> bed levelling to it :(

Thats a bummer. I'm doing a "make do" version of that on my old Sheldon. 
What little uneven wear there is, which has the effect of tilting the 
carriage to/from the center axis, I've measured and put into a screw 
comp file that profiles the error into the x axis.  Seems to work ok, 
but the max correction is less than 3 thou.

Some right at the mouth of the spindle isn't wear, but the carriage being 
pushed slightly out of square by the force the left hand bellows over 
the screw exerts on the carriage when its being seriously crushed.  But 
thats effectively inside the chucks. That 1450mm Z screw should have 
been 1500mm with 40mm of that used to move the left thrust bearing to 
the left.  Hindsight, always 20-05...  The fix now?  Would be tapered 
gibs on both front and rear of the carriage.  But that would be quite a 
chore at this stage.  It sure made a whole new lathe out of TLM though.

One thing I did on the Sheldon that I couldn't do on TLM, was to seal up 
the X screw to keep swarf out of its nut. But with the motor on the rear 
of the carriage on TLM, theres no room for an effective cover to 
telescope, so I've crushed 3 attempts to make one so far. The Sheldon X 
motor is on the front, and the taper adapter's crossfeed extension stuff 
makes sealing that area up a piece of cake. I inlet a piece of 1/8" alu 
paneling to cover the slot above the screw, and similarly covered the 
bottom so an errant air hose blast can't get to it. Even had the back of 
the carriage covered for a while.

X backlash got hugely gross a few weeks back and I thoought I was going 
to have to tear it down again to get at the x clamping nut screws, but 
it turned out the drive pulley was slipping on the shaft. Tightened the 
setscrews till the wrench screamed again, and gave it a coat of green 
locktite at the pulley/shaft joint, back to about a thou. :)

The problem with the pi turned out to a a badly mis-configure G76, giving 
about 50,000 passes, so the poor pi was plumb out of swap trying to 
render the backplot.  Fixed that, pi back to normal for the pi.

However, that threading job disclosed that G76 needs one more parameter. 
Due to the length vs diameter of this 10-24 thread, G76 needs an 
additional parameter to cause it to cut a couple thou deeper at the 
right end. Because of the cutting force, it cuts the right, unsupported 
end of the thread larger than at the left end, very very noticeable when 
attempting to get a good fit of stylus into the threads in the plastic 
face of this cheap probe.

It is possible to cheat by makeing the left end withdraw movement over 
one turn less than the length of the thread, you can make a nice 40 thou 
taper over 5/8" that way, but I haven't tried it for this small a taper.

I have made intentional tapers that way on TLM. Very successfully, that 
is whats driving the X screw in the Sheldon. By making a socket on the 
rear of the new shaft I put in the X hand crank, with the socket area 
being tapered to 

Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Jeff Johnson]

The free cad cam options just don't seem to work for us, Clunky is what
comes to mind plus no ability to handle other formats. I do admire the
people that can 
Live in that realm. I have a crew of 10-12 guy's and getting everyone on the
same page is tough as they all have opinions.
Retro-fitted 4 machines to LinuxCNC and four years later they make parts
everyday but there is still a stigma of free
And homebrewed that hangs over the controls, especially with new guys. I
should mention I just had a Retro-fit of a 
Deckle Maho DMU 80P, had MS-Tech come in and hang their control on it. It's
not Fanuc, Fagor, Heidenhain or ProtoTrak and I am sure it will
carry the same stigma. 
 
Back to fusion should clarify that I am a job shop and we have to open
customer drawings and prints in many different formats.
Life may or may not be easier if we were only working on our own files
making and controlling every process 
>From design to manufacture. The other thing, is I need at least three seats
of Cad and at least two seats of Cam.

The cost of Fusion at $495 a seat looks pretty good to me balanced against
the maintenance fees I am already paying
2 seats of Alibre (for making drawings from Customer Solids)
1 seat of Visual Cam (3D mill work)
3 seats ProgeCad (is a bargain, great Autocad clone in my opinion) no
maintenance fees just buy seats.
3 seats of ShopCam (very reasonable and great for turning and 2d milling)

Knowing I can save back-ups locally may be the answer. Will I be held
hostage? Maybe, but
there is the possibility that I can migrate to one system over time. My real
needs are the ability
to make and open 2D drawings as well as solids and generate trouble free
tool paths. 

Jeff Johnson
john...@superiorroll.com
Superior Roll & Turning
734-279-1831


One comment.The Fusion 360 files to not "hold you hostage" I routinely
same my work in *.STEP file format  Fusion can use any of about a half
dozen industry standard files formats.   And can read and write the native
format of it's competitors.   DOn't work abut file formats.   Fusion is a
good tol to use to convert from one file type to another.  Plans are in
the works to allow Fusion to natively edit competitor's files with no
conversion needed

Yes, I keep the backup design files on my own computer and I do like to
keep the backups in at least two different file formats.  I keep my work
saved to both Fusiion's format and *.STEP


Fusion is about the ONLY reasonably priced (free) option if your product
looks like this:   Below is from a Fusion tutorial where they show you how
to make the yellow plastic shell and grey rubber over-mold and the
mechanical parts that turn the motor's rotary motion to back and forth saw
motion and also how to make a simulation and animated video of the moving
parts.

You are NOT going to make a saw like this in FreeCAD or and you are NOT
going to hand code the g-code files.
Yes you can actually build stuff like this saw in a home shop.What I
want is a robot vacuum cleaner that can do stairs
all by itself at night.The hard part is no longer the mechanics,  It is
the motion planning software.

[image: sawzall-v19-v13-v6-3500-3500.jpg]



On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 3:54 PM Lester Caine  wrote:
-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: image/jpeg
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Re: [Emc-users] problem DH parameters manipulator arm

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 00:45, yomin estiven jaramillo munera
 wrote:
>
> Hi chris, i would like ask you something, based on you said , I need to
> figure out how my elbow angle is moved in function to my base angle, and
> after this i will need to add this function to my kinematics file, in that
> case i would be using the DH parameters so, i should modificate genserkins,
> shouldn't I?

You don't have to use DH parameters or any matrix maths if you don't want to.

You could just use everyday trigonometry, especially as your robot
seems to work largely in a single plane.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 08:13,  wrote:

> I am still using Inventor 2011. Yes; it took a while to get to grips
> with it, but it's very capable. I have 2014 but have never installed
> it (always seem to be waiting for a newer computer). Inventor has
> become Fusion 360 now, so there seems little point in upgrading
> Inventor itself.

I think you are wrong on both counts here :-)

Inventor continues as a product alongside Inventor. And Inventor is
far more capable where large assembles are concerned.

If you upgraded to 2014 I think that you would find that CAM is available:
https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/inventor-products/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/When-downloading-Inventor-HSM-Pro-2015-plug-in-the-2016-version-downloads-instead.html

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 at 22:48, Bruce Layne  wrote:

> If there was no FreeCAD, I'd use OpenSCAD long before I'd use Fusion
> 360.  Free Open Source Software for the win.

I admire your principles, and agree in theory.

But I already know Inventor and Fusion and know that they can do what
I need, and that I can make them do what I need.
From where I am now I just don't have that confidence in the FOSS
offerings to invest the time to learn them.

The CAM in Fusion is orders of magnitude better than the others I have
tried (PyCAM, MeshCAM, SheetCAM[1]) which adds to the lack of
enthusiasm to switch.

And, again, if I was paying money for CAD/CAM and making money from
CAD/CAM then the calculations might be different.

[1] If I was running a Plasma or laser I would use SheetCAM, but it
isn't even trying to compete with Fusion at 3D and multi-axis.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[Lester Caine]

On 23/03/2019 02:56, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Friday 22 March 2019 18:52:54 Lester Caine wrote:


On 22/03/2019 22:46, Bruce Layne wrote:

I use FreeCAD, mostly for 3D printing.  It's still not ready for
prime time and doesn't have a usable CAM system so it's not a
possible replacement for Fusion 360, but it's a viable CAD option
for me when Fusion 360 isn't.


Sorry I have to disagree with that ... I'm running perfectly good
gcode for the Taig mill from FreeCAD. Yes for 3D printing one of the
other slicer options is required, but for 2.5D machining it works well
enough and is improving all the time.


If its being improved Lester, why has the downloadable been stuck at
version .14 for several years? I take it back, the last 32 bit release
that will run on the wheezy LiveCD install is .14, but I see .17 is
available for 64 bit installs now. So you have to reboot to a 64 bit
install to use it.  Is it worth setting up a dual boot?


Actually I'm running 0.17 on the main linux desktop as the SUSE 
experimental load of 0.18 screws up other CAD and graphics related stuff 
on Leap15.0. 0.18 is running on my windows machine with Vcarve and 
TurboCAD and installed without a problem. I dropped KiCAD onto the 
windows machine as well so I could play with the recent 'paid for' job 
and while not totally smooth, I had models of the folded sheet metal 
around the PCB along with a flattened out version for the laser ... but 
it ended up being punched out on a CNC punch ... so I did not see the 
gcode for that. The final box was perfect.


My next job is to get the 3D printer hooked up to the BBB/CRAMPS board 
and MachineKit driving it. Although I may get the lathe finally hooked 
up first since the the proprietary control does work. Just can't add bed 
levelling to it :(


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

[marcus . bowman]

I am still using Inventor 2011. Yes; it took a while to get to grips
with it, but it's very capable. I have 2014 but have never installed
it (always seem to be waiting for a newer computer). Inventor has
become Fusion 360 now, so there seems little point in upgrading
Inventor itself. There is no CAM element to Inventor 2011, so models
are exported as STEP files, then imported into Vectric's  VCarve Pro
if they are to be milled, or Repetier if they are to be 3D printed.

 I think any capable 3D CAD/CAM program will take a bit of learning,
and for me the big step was learning to think in 3D. I have found the
process requires me to think more about how to manufacture the object,
than simply to draw it. The most challenging part has been learning
how to create objects with complex angles between different planes,
which I need for drawing large moulding tools.Strangely, although I
know how to do classic pencil-and-paper technical drawing, I found
AutoCAD quite frustrating to use, and 3D drawing much more liberating
once I got going. Inventor is based on the AutoCAD engine, but you
would never know it from using Inventor.

I have tried many of the free programs, but they vary too much in both
approach to the task and in real capability to make much impression on
me. If I can't get my head around how the programmer thinks about 3D
objects, I find it difficult to use the program. TinkerCAD for 3D
printing is a classic example. I have a friend nearby who creates all
manner of things in TinkerCAD. I can barely draw a square with a hole
in the middle, because I don't think about 3D objects in the same way
as the programmer did when creating the interface. That's strange,
because TinkerCAD is based on the  Inventor engine (which, like the
Russian dolls, is based on AutoCAD...).
As an aside, my final year project at University, a very long time
ago, was creating a program to produce a drawing of interpenetrating
pipes, and a layout drawing for heavy steel sheet to be cut then
rolled into pipes for oil rig legs. The others in my yeargroup were
working on other aspects of drawing on a computer; all of which was
new in those early days. It was all based on a mathematical approach
to classic 2D drawing techniques. So its a source of joy and wonder to
me that we have such capable 3D  CAD/CAM software nowadays. It makes
workshop life so much more interesting.
One other aspect from those early days, was a procedure for generating
two photos of a drawing on a flat monitor screen. The camera took two
photos simultaneously but from two different angles, 5 degrees apart.
The resultant images were loaded into a ViewMaster type of slide
projector, and produced a 3D image of the object. Where are you now,
Occulus??? That was in 1974.

I signed up for Fusion360 (free version) a long time ago, but need  a
decent  64-bit machine to be able to run it, so that will have to
wait.

I also signed up for OnShape, but that would not run on my Mac or on
any of my (slightly older) PCs. I don't know anyone who is using that
software, and my impression is that their 'free' business model didn't
last terribly long.

I tried SolidWorks a long time ago, and went to a demo/workshop
session. I could understand how to use the program (based on my
experience with Inventor) but the licence was way more expensive than
a full-price Inventor licence, and the ongoing costs were not
inconsiderable, so I left that alone.

I think that as far as CAD/CAM programs go, you get what you pay for.
Or maybe the capability of Inventor has spoiled me.
The free licence for Fusion360 has to be a real bargain, for as long
as it lasts.

Marcus

- Original Message -
From: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" @lists.sourceforge.net>
To:"Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

Cc:
Sent:Fri, 22 Mar 2019 22:38:35 -0400
Subject:Re: [Emc-users] Fusion 360

 On Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 22:32 Jon Elson  wrote:

 > On 03/22/2019 04:14 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote:
 > > Anyone on here have opinions on Fusion 360 Cad/Cam by Autodesk?
 > >
 > >
 > We just got set up with Autocad Inventor at work. While
 > very capable, and it has lots of good CAM strategies, it is
 > SO COMPLICATED! We have one guy here who got good with it,
 > so I let my meager skills lapse, and now I barely know how
 > to view a document.
 >
 > I think Fusion is a very similar program.
 >
 > Jon
 >

 The Lars Christensen Fusion 360 videos on YouTube are very good. Lars
 works for Autodesk.

 Dave

 >
 >
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