subject:"\[Emc\-users\] Spindle"


Hi Todd and others;
Indeed it is a horrible idea but I feel backed to the wall.

I have T lugs but they are secured by M6 shcs which is no where close to 
as strong as the normal retention stud. However, I plan to use the 
machine at full rpm with AlCrN coated end mill,

coolant and keep the loading low.
I don't have much to lose. My chances of living more than 10 years more 
are not good and that assume health good enough to work in the shop.


Dave


On 6/27/22 7:25 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:

Gluing a spindle taper into a spindle sounds like a truly horribly idea.  (I'd 
be more worried about it letting go when you didn't want it to, than trying to 
get it out later if you did want to remove it, although that also may prove 
problematic.)

The drive lugs are usually removable/replaceable.  Maybe you could make new 
drive lugs that also positively engage the tool holder to retain it.  Something 
like a longer T shape that would capture the tool holder flange.  (Personally 
I'd do every thing I could to fix the spindle properly though.)

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: dave engvall 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 9:57 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle problem

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

Update: The drive lugs get in the way of a safety disk or ring or anything 
else. Epoxy looks more promising; just a semi-permanent solution.
Note: Epoxy can always be removed with heat or chlorinated solvents but...
Dave

On 6/27/22 6:27 AM, dave engvall wrote:

Back again;
Since crawling in under the spindle is difficult for an old stiff guy
I laid the iphone on the table and took a pic, rotated the spindle 45
degrees and took another; nothing useful moved. However, there are
large socket head cap screws around the perimeter of the spindle. It
should be possible to make a safety cap that has a few thou clearance
to limit axial movement. 'Maybe' I can jury rig something. Basically I
have to see what kind of clearances I have. An actual thrust bearing
seems like asking for trouble.
Psychologically it would almost be easier to pick up the radiator cap
and run a new(er) one in. Still that brings all sorts of problems of
its own. Hard to win.
Back to the drawing table. ;-)
Dave

On 6/26/22 9:10 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 15:45, dave engvall  wrote:


A couple of solutions present themselves but neither are ideal.
Simply use the M6 shcs that hold the dogs in place to secure the CAT40.
Balance and adequate strength/safety would seem to present problems.

Does the nose have any extra holes? There are 4 threaded holes with
no obvious function on my 30INT spindle and looking around the
internet I see threaded holes in some of the CAT40 spindles.
It seems that you could use those to hold in a custom ER40 (or
similar) adaptor.

4000 rpm probably isn't fast enough to need to worry too much about
balance.





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Re: [Emc-users] spindle problem

2022-06-27 Thread Ed


On 6/27/22 9:25 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:

Gluing a spindle taper into a spindle sounds like a truly horribly idea.  (I'd 
be more worried about it letting go when you didn't want it to, than trying to 
get it out later if you did want to remove it, although that also may prove 
problematic.)

The drive lugs are usually removable/replaceable.  Maybe you could make new 
drive lugs that also positively engage the tool holder to retain it.  Something 
like a longer T shape that would capture the tool holder flange.  (Personally 
I'd do every thing I could to fix the spindle properly though.)

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


Todd has it right.

A little twist would be to make the "T" shaped retainer more of an "L". 
Loosen a screw, rotate retainer, change tool, rotate retainer, retighten 
screw.


Best practice would still be repair properly.

Ed.




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Re: [Emc-users] spindle problem

2022-06-27 Thread Todd Zuercher

Gluing a spindle taper into a spindle sounds like a truly horribly idea.  (I'd 
be more worried about it letting go when you didn't want it to, than trying to 
get it out later if you did want to remove it, although that also may prove 
problematic.)

The drive lugs are usually removable/replaceable.  Maybe you could make new 
drive lugs that also positively engage the tool holder to retain it.  Something 
like a longer T shape that would capture the tool holder flange.  (Personally 
I'd do every thing I could to fix the spindle properly though.)

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: dave engvall  
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2022 9:57 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle problem

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

Update: The drive lugs get in the way of a safety disk or ring or anything 
else. Epoxy looks more promising; just a semi-permanent solution.
Note: Epoxy can always be removed with heat or chlorinated solvents but...
Dave

On 6/27/22 6:27 AM, dave engvall wrote:
> Back again;
> Since crawling in under the spindle is difficult for an old stiff guy 
> I laid the iphone on the table and took a pic, rotated the spindle 45 
> degrees and took another; nothing useful moved. However, there are 
> large socket head cap screws around the perimeter of the spindle. It 
> should be possible to make a safety cap that has a few thou clearance 
> to limit axial movement. 'Maybe' I can jury rig something. Basically I 
> have to see what kind of clearances I have. An actual thrust bearing 
> seems like asking for trouble.
> Psychologically it would almost be easier to pick up the radiator cap 
> and run a new(er) one in. Still that brings all sorts of problems of 
> its own. Hard to win.
> Back to the drawing table. ;-)
> Dave
>
> On 6/26/22 9:10 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 15:45, dave engvall  wrote:
>>
>>> A couple of solutions present themselves but neither are ideal.
>>> Simply use the M6 shcs that hold the dogs in place to secure the CAT40.
>>> Balance and adequate strength/safety would seem to present problems.
>> Does the nose have any extra holes? There are 4 threaded holes with 
>> no obvious function on my 30INT spindle and looking around the 
>> internet I see threaded holes in some of the CAT40 spindles.
>> It seems that you could use those to hold in a custom ER40 (or
>> similar) adaptor.
>>
>> 4000 rpm probably isn't fast enough to need to worry too much about 
>> balance.
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] spindle problem

Update: The drive lugs get in the way of a safety disk or ring or 
anything else. Epoxy looks more promising; just a semi-permanent solution.

Note: Epoxy can always be removed with heat or chlorinated solvents but...
Dave

On 6/27/22 6:27 AM, dave engvall wrote:

Back again;
Since crawling in under the spindle is difficult for an old stiff guy 
I laid the iphone on the table and took a pic, rotated the spindle 45 
degrees and took another; nothing useful moved. However, there are 
large socket head cap screws around the perimeter of the spindle. It 
should be possible to make a safety cap that has a few thou clearance 
to limit axial movement. 'Maybe' I can jury rig something. Basically I 
have to see what kind of clearances I have. An actual thrust bearing 
seems like asking for trouble.
Psychologically it would almost be easier to pick up the radiator cap 
and run a new(er) one in. Still that brings all sorts of problems of 
its own. Hard to win.

Back to the drawing table. ;-)
Dave

On 6/26/22 9:10 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 15:45, dave engvall  wrote:


A couple of solutions present themselves but neither are ideal.
Simply use the M6 shcs that hold the dogs in place to secure the CAT40.
Balance and adequate strength/safety would seem to present problems.

Does the nose have any extra holes? There are 4 threaded holes with no
obvious function on my 30INT spindle and looking around the internet I
see threaded holes in some of the CAT40 spindles.
It seems that you could use those to hold in a custom ER40 (or
similar) adaptor.

4000 rpm probably isn't fast enough to need to worry too much about 
balance.







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Re: [Emc-users] spindle problem


Back again;
Since crawling in under the spindle is difficult for an old stiff guy I 
laid the iphone on the table and took a pic, rotated the spindle 45 
degrees and took another; nothing useful moved. However, there are large 
socket head cap screws around the perimeter of the spindle. It should be 
possible to make a safety cap that has a few thou clearance to limit 
axial movement. 'Maybe' I can jury rig something. Basically I have to 
see what kind of clearances I have. An actual thrust bearing seems like 
asking for trouble.
Psychologically it would almost be easier to pick up the radiator cap 
and run a new(er) one in. Still that brings all sorts of problems of its 
own. Hard to win.

Back to the drawing table. ;-)
Dave

On 6/26/22 9:10 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 15:45, dave engvall  wrote:


A couple of solutions present themselves but neither are ideal.
Simply use the M6 shcs that hold the dogs in place to secure the CAT40.
Balance and adequate strength/safety would seem to present problems.

Does the nose have any extra holes? There are 4 threaded holes with no
obvious function on my 30INT spindle and looking around the internet I
see threaded holes in some of the CAT40 spindles.
It seems that you could use those to hold in a custom ER40 (or
similar) adaptor.

4000 rpm probably isn't fast enough to need to worry too much about balance.






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Re: [Emc-users] spindle problem


Hi Roland,
I thought about using a friend but I tend to outlive them. Lost a couple 
lately that would have been ideal. That is the trouble with getting old. 
;-)
If the machine were in a nice open shop where just running in a tall 
forklift and picking up the
transmission, etc and lifting it off to the side it indeed would be 
easier. What would have been not too difficult 10 years ago is somewhat 
intimidating now.

'Sides I'm not the best supervisor.
Still thanks for the idea.

Dave

On 6/27/22 4:09 AM, Roland Jollivet wrote:

Surely you could hire a buff mechanic from down the road and totally
supervise/instruct him what to do?


On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 16:45, dave engvall  wrote:


Hi,
My Mazak V5 has been down for a few years. First for brushes on the
spindle motor and then a much more serious broken belleville stack.
Unfortunately, the spindle on this model comes out from the top which
means pulling all the hydraulics and the spindle motor/transmission and
getting them out of the way. I don't see that is it possible to replace
the stack w/o fussing with all of the above.
Note: I'm 4 score and 4 and not as energetic as I used to be.
A couple of solutions present themselves but neither are ideal.
Simply use the M6 shcs that hold the dogs in place to secure the CAT40.
Balance and adequate strength/safety would seem to present problems.
The other solution is to simple punt and epoxy a CAT40 in place and live
with the restrictions.
Candidate CAT40 is a SK16 with holders for end mills up to M16 and at
least consider adding an ER20//ER16 with a M16 stub (custom dia) to
drill/ream. I have sets of ER20 and ER16 collets.
Note: spindle is 4000 rpm and 5 HP geared.

If anyone has a better idea I'm all ears.
As usual TIA: I seem to be out of easy/ideal solutions.

Dave


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[Emc-users] spindle problem

2022-06-27 Thread Roland Jollivet

Surely you could hire a buff mechanic from down the road and totally
supervise/instruct him what to do?


On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 16:45, dave engvall  wrote:

> Hi,
> My Mazak V5 has been down for a few years. First for brushes on the
> spindle motor and then a much more serious broken belleville stack.
> Unfortunately, the spindle on this model comes out from the top which
> means pulling all the hydraulics and the spindle motor/transmission and
> getting them out of the way. I don't see that is it possible to replace
> the stack w/o fussing with all of the above.
> Note: I'm 4 score and 4 and not as energetic as I used to be.
> A couple of solutions present themselves but neither are ideal.
> Simply use the M6 shcs that hold the dogs in place to secure the CAT40.
> Balance and adequate strength/safety would seem to present problems.
> The other solution is to simple punt and epoxy a CAT40 in place and live
> with the restrictions.
> Candidate CAT40 is a SK16 with holders for end mills up to M16 and at
> least consider adding an ER20//ER16 with a M16 stub (custom dia) to
> drill/ream. I have sets of ER20 and ER16 collets.
> Note: spindle is 4000 rpm and 5 HP geared.
>
> If anyone has a better idea I'm all ears.
> As usual TIA: I seem to be out of easy/ideal solutions.
>
> Dave
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] spindle problem

2022-06-26 Thread andy pugh

On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 15:45, dave engvall  wrote:

> A couple of solutions present themselves but neither are ideal.
> Simply use the M6 shcs that hold the dogs in place to secure the CAT40.
> Balance and adequate strength/safety would seem to present problems.

Does the nose have any extra holes? There are 4 threaded holes with no
obvious function on my 30INT spindle and looking around the internet I
see threaded holes in some of the CAT40 spindles.
It seems that you could use those to hold in a custom ER40 (or
similar) adaptor.

4000 rpm probably isn't fast enough to need to worry too much about balance.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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[Emc-users] spindle problem

2022-06-26 Thread dave engvall


Hi,
My Mazak V5 has been down for a few years. First for brushes on the 
spindle motor and then a much more serious broken belleville stack. 
Unfortunately, the spindle on this model comes out from the top which 
means pulling all the hydraulics and the spindle motor/transmission and 
getting them out of the way. I don't see that is it possible to replace 
the stack w/o fussing with all of the above.

Note: I'm 4 score and 4 and not as energetic as I used to be.
A couple of solutions present themselves but neither are ideal.
Simply use the M6 shcs that hold the dogs in place to secure the CAT40. 
Balance and adequate strength/safety would seem to present problems.
The other solution is to simple punt and epoxy a CAT40 in place and live 
with the restrictions.
Candidate CAT40 is a SK16 with holders for end mills up to M16 and at 
least consider adding an ER20//ER16 with a M16 stub (custom dia) to 
drill/ream. I have sets of ER20 and ER16 collets.

Note: spindle is 4000 rpm and 5 HP geared.

If anyone has a better idea I'm all ears.
As usual TIA: I seem to be out of easy/ideal solutions.

Dave


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle? (OT)

2021-12-30 Thread Peter Hodgson

Not sure about the spindle noise but are you aware of the USB port to floppy 
emulators?

I fitted one to my Prototrak and it works well. Restricted to 1.44mb though.

Look at this on eBay
USB Floppy Disk Reader Drive Emulator 3.5in No Extra Driver Required Plug N Play

Pete 

> On 30 Dec 2021, at 19:05, Todd Zuercher  wrote:
> 
> Here is an off topic (not Linuxcnc related) general milling machine question.
> 
> About 10 months ago we (our company) bought our first real metal working cnc 
> machine.  It is a Lagunmatic VMC 3516 with a 4th axis, and Dynapath Delta 40 
> control, built in 1998.  We bought the machine hoping to use it as is, but 
> with retrofitting to Linuxcnc as the plan B.  At first we weren't sure if it 
> would run.  Some other people here hooked it up and played with it bit to see 
> if it was working.  But they were stumped by it, and didn't have a lot of 
> time to put into figuring it out.  Well this week I finally had a little time 
> to look into it.  After a bit of fiddling it seems it is fully functional.  
> Once I figured out how to home it, and command tool changes and start the 
> spindle.
> 
> I have no experience with metal working machines, but lots of CNC experience 
> working with wood routers (large industrial wood routers, not just home hobby 
> machines.)  While the basic CNC principals and are the same, the actual 
> hardware is very different.  For example there are worlds of difference 
> between a 15hp hi speed wood working router spindle and this VMC's low speed 
> multi gear milling spindle (5 or 6,000 rmp max speed I think.)  For starters 
> I was amazed by how much mass seems to be in the spindle to turn it by hand.
> 
> I have no basis for comparison as to how this spindle and it's gearbox should 
> sound, to try to judge it's condition.  The control seems to automatically 
> shift the gearbox dependent on the commanded spindle speed.  I can hear air 
> cylinders shifting things, and the sound of the spindle is very different 
> when commanded at S1000 vs S5000.  At the lower speed it obviously has a lot 
> more gear noise.  At the high speed there isn't the gear noise, but it has 
> sort of a "loose" sound.  But it doesn't ever seem to have any really 
> objectionable bad bearing sounds, at least to my untrained ear.  How should 
> it sound?   Any hints for assessing it's condition?
> 
> We don't have much for manuals for the machine.   Looking at the option page 
> display on the control, shows that the rigid tapping option is enabled.  
> Unfortunately it looks like the only way to get code into the old control is 
> by RS232 DNC, or floppy disk.
> 
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> 
> 
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[Emc-users] Spindle? (OT)

2021-12-30 Thread Todd Zuercher

Here is an off topic (not Linuxcnc related) general milling machine question.

About 10 months ago we (our company) bought our first real metal working cnc 
machine.  It is a Lagunmatic VMC 3516 with a 4th axis, and Dynapath Delta 40 
control, built in 1998.  We bought the machine hoping to use it as is, but with 
retrofitting to Linuxcnc as the plan B.  At first we weren't sure if it would 
run.  Some other people here hooked it up and played with it bit to see if it 
was working.  But they were stumped by it, and didn't have a lot of time to put 
into figuring it out.  Well this week I finally had a little time to look into 
it.  After a bit of fiddling it seems it is fully functional.  Once I figured 
out how to home it, and command tool changes and start the spindle.

I have no experience with metal working machines, but lots of CNC experience 
working with wood routers (large industrial wood routers, not just home hobby 
machines.)  While the basic CNC principals and are the same, the actual 
hardware is very different.  For example there are worlds of difference between 
a 15hp hi speed wood working router spindle and this VMC's low speed multi gear 
milling spindle (5 or 6,000 rmp max speed I think.)  For starters I was amazed 
by how much mass seems to be in the spindle to turn it by hand.

I have no basis for comparison as to how this spindle and it's gearbox should 
sound, to try to judge it's condition.  The control seems to automatically 
shift the gearbox dependent on the commanded spindle speed.  I can hear air 
cylinders shifting things, and the sound of the spindle is very different when 
commanded at S1000 vs S5000.  At the lower speed it obviously has a lot more 
gear noise.  At the high speed there isn't the gear noise, but it has sort of a 
"loose" sound.  But it doesn't ever seem to have any really objectionable bad 
bearing sounds, at least to my untrained ear.  How should it sound?   Any hints 
for assessing it's condition?

We don't have much for manuals for the machine.   Looking at the option page 
display on the control, shows that the rigid tapping option is enabled.  
Unfortunately it looks like the only way to get code into the old control is by 
RS232 DNC, or floppy disk.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-24 Thread andy pugh

On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 09:58, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> How does one tell the spindle to do one revolution at 0.5 rps and stop either 
> after one rev or when a sensor input is detected?  Given that I'm running the 
> MESA board in step/dir mode.

Presumably it is running in velocity mode?

Use a mux2 to switch between normal speed control and align speed
control (ie link in0 to spindle.0.speed and setp in1 to a small
number.
Operate the mux2 using a latch, set from a G-code digital and reset by
the index pulse:
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/man/man9/flipflop.9.html (I think
you would setp the data pin, pulse the clock low-to-high to enable the
mux, then let the index pulse reset it)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-24 Thread Gene Heskett

On Wednesday 24 November 2021 04:54:02 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Hi Gene,
> This doesn't answer my question.  .
>
> How does one tell the spindle to do one revolution at 0.5 rps and stop
> either after one rev or when a sensor input is detected?  Given that
> I'm running the MESA board in step/dir mode.

I would use the pulse you have as a both time reference and as a counter 
in the hal file, Start the counter at zero, until the count is one, and 
if thats not long enough, put in a oneshot to stretch it, or wait to 
stop at a count of 2. Running a stepper, the sudden stop might cause a 
step skip but at that slow a speed I doubt it. Use the end of the 
oneshot to rezero the counter for the next tool change.

Lowering the socket could be done gently, very low air pessure, while 
turning the spindle slowly until the socket drops onto the nut, 
reverseing the spindle for a few milliseconds to give it enough slack to 
fall all the way. then drive the stepper, turning everything until the 
lock pin drops in. tally that so you can start the unlock 2 turns. For 
locking, drive it the other way but use a oneshot to time it so the 
stepper cogs once and gets shut down. 

Rough outline, I've probably forgotten something.

> Thanks
> John
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> > Sent: November-23-21 7:44 PM
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> >
> > On Tuesday 23 November 2021 21:33:21 John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > Still wondering how I might make the spindle turn slowly and then
> > > stop on a sensor signal.  From the HAL file it's set up the same
> > > way as the XYZA axis with respect to step_type and control-type.
> > >
> > > I'd want to set the velocity to say 30 RPM (0.5 RPS) and during a
> > > revolution if it detects an input the motor is stopped.
> > >
> > > # SPINDLE Step Gen signals/setup
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirsetup[SPINDLE_9]DIRSETUP
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirhold [SPINDLE_9]DIRHOLD
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.steplen [SPINDLE_9]STEPLEN
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.stepspace   [SPINDLE_9]STEPSPACE
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.position-scale  [SPINDLE_9]STEP_SCALE
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.step_type   0
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.control-type1
> > > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxaccel
> > > [SPINDLE_9]MAX_ACCELERATION setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxvel
> > >   [SPINDLE_9]MAX_VELOCITY
> > >
> > > net spindle-enable =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.enable
> > > net spindle-vel-cmd-rps =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.velocity-cmd
> >
> > For that sort of accuracy, put high rez a/b encoder on the motor
> > armature, but get the index from a hall effect watching the socket.
> > That will pretty much do away with quantization noise and will let
> > you set the stopped point to a small fraction of a degree.
> >
> > Or use that stepper with at least a 10x geardown if it has enough
> > twisting power.  Or a stepper with a 90 degree worm drive. I have
> > one of the small ones with a 5/1 worm that might be able to do my
> > g0704 with a 3NM nema23 on it. But they make that one at much higher
> > ratios than this 5/1.  There's also good looking plantary inline
> > reducers for nearly the same money that look stronger than a worm
> > drive.
> >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-24 Thread John Dammeyer

Hi Gene,
This doesn't answer my question.  .

How does one tell the spindle to do one revolution at 0.5 rps and stop either 
after one rev or when a sensor input is detected?  Given that I'm running the 
MESA board in step/dir mode.

Thanks
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: November-23-21 7:44 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> On Tuesday 23 November 2021 21:33:21 John Dammeyer wrote:
> 
> > Still wondering how I might make the spindle turn slowly and then stop
> > on a sensor signal.  From the HAL file it's set up the same way as the
> > XYZA axis with respect to step_type and control-type.
> >
> > I'd want to set the velocity to say 30 RPM (0.5 RPS) and during a
> > revolution if it detects an input the motor is stopped.
> >
> > # SPINDLE Step Gen signals/setup
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirsetup[SPINDLE_9]DIRSETUP
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirhold [SPINDLE_9]DIRHOLD
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.steplen [SPINDLE_9]STEPLEN
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.stepspace   [SPINDLE_9]STEPSPACE
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.position-scale  [SPINDLE_9]STEP_SCALE
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.step_type   0
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.control-type1
> > setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxaccel
> > [SPINDLE_9]MAX_ACCELERATION setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxvel
> >   [SPINDLE_9]MAX_VELOCITY
> >
> > net spindle-enable =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.enable
> > net spindle-vel-cmd-rps =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.velocity-cmd
> >
> For that sort of accuracy, put high rez a/b encoder on the motor
> armature, but get the index from a hall effect watching the socket. That
> will pretty much do away with quantization noise and will let you set
> the stopped point to a small fraction of a degree.
> 
> Or use that stepper with at least a 10x geardown if it has enough
> twisting power.  Or a stepper with a 90 degree worm drive. I have one of
> the small ones with a 5/1 worm that might be able to do my g0704 with a
> 3NM nema23 on it. But they make that one at much higher ratios than this
> 5/1.  There's also good looking plantary inline reducers for nearly the
> same money that look stronger than a worm drive.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-23 Thread Gene Heskett

On Tuesday 23 November 2021 21:33:21 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Still wondering how I might make the spindle turn slowly and then stop
> on a sensor signal.  From the HAL file it's set up the same way as the
> XYZA axis with respect to step_type and control-type.
>
> I'd want to set the velocity to say 30 RPM (0.5 RPS) and during a
> revolution if it detects an input the motor is stopped.
>
> # SPINDLE Step Gen signals/setup
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirsetup[SPINDLE_9]DIRSETUP
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirhold [SPINDLE_9]DIRHOLD
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.steplen [SPINDLE_9]STEPLEN
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.stepspace   [SPINDLE_9]STEPSPACE
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.position-scale  [SPINDLE_9]STEP_SCALE
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.step_type   0
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.control-type1
> setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxaccel   
> [SPINDLE_9]MAX_ACCELERATION setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxvel   
>   [SPINDLE_9]MAX_VELOCITY
>
> net spindle-enable =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.enable
> net spindle-vel-cmd-rps =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.velocity-cmd
>
For that sort of accuracy, put high rez a/b encoder on the motor 
armature, but get the index from a hall effect watching the socket. That 
will pretty much do away with quantization noise and will let you set 
the stopped point to a small fraction of a degree.

Or use that stepper with at least a 10x geardown if it has enough 
twisting power.  Or a stepper with a 90 degree worm drive. I have one of 
the small ones with a 5/1 worm that might be able to do my g0704 with a 
3NM nema23 on it. But they make that one at much higher ratios than this 
5/1.  There's also good looking plantary inline reducers for nearly the 
same money that look stronger than a worm drive.
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

Still wondering how I might make the spindle turn slowly and then stop on a 
sensor signal.  From the HAL file it's set up the same way as the XYZA axis 
with respect to step_type and control-type.  

I'd want to set the velocity to say 30 RPM (0.5 RPS) and during a revolution if 
it detects an input the motor is stopped.

# SPINDLE Step Gen signals/setup
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirsetup[SPINDLE_9]DIRSETUP
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.dirhold [SPINDLE_9]DIRHOLD
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.steplen [SPINDLE_9]STEPLEN
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.stepspace   [SPINDLE_9]STEPSPACE
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.position-scale  [SPINDLE_9]STEP_SCALE
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.step_type   0
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.control-type1
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxaccel[SPINDLE_9]MAX_ACCELERATION
setp   hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.maxvel  [SPINDLE_9]MAX_VELOCITY

net spindle-enable =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.enable
net spindle-vel-cmd-rps =>  hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.05.velocity-cmd





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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

Not this one.

> -Original Message-
> From: Thaddeus Waldner [mailto:thadw...@gmail.com]
> Sent: November-23-21 12:01 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> Some of those hammers have a thru-hole for pinning the socket.
> 
> > On Nov 23, 2021, at 1:14 PM, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> >
> > I've ordered a retaining ring set for it.  May help.  The socket has a 
> > recess for this ring to expand into but at the moment it almost
> falls out by itself.  The wrench is 10 years old and although not used during 
> that period the rubber had likely hardened and is no
> longer providing the spring action.
> >
> > You can see in the photo that I've used the Dremel to create a dimple for 
> > the retaining screw that is in the side of the socket.
> However it loosens with the impact driver vibration.  I don't have room to 
> put in a locking set screw and it's too early for Loctite.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> >> Sent: November-23-21 4:04 AM
> >> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> >>
> >> On Tuesday 23 November 2021 02:47:59 andy pugh wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 01:05, John Dammeyer 
> >> wrote:
> >>>>  Likely why the set screw works loose after a number of cycles.
> >>>
> >>> I am surprised that the air wrench doesn't have the usual ball-detente
> >>> to retain the socket.
> >>
> >> I have seen some that utilize a spring encircling the end of the driver
> >> square, and it works moderately well, with sockets made with an internal
> >> cutaway at the bottom of the square well.
> >>
> >> But we haven't seen a pix of his setup w/o the socket.
> >>
> >> Satire intended: Thats I think to encourage the sales of sockets using
> >> that scheme, also convieniently made by the wrench peddlar of course.
> >>
> >> That could be Johns problem. In that case John, you may be able to
> >> machine the socket or better a new one to utilise that retainer method,
> >> but take care, too deep a groove and the socket may be stuck on forever.
> >> Show us a closeup pix with the socket removed.
> >>
> >> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> >> --
> >> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> >> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> >> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
> >> - Louis D. Brandeis
> >> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-23 Thread Thaddeus Waldner

Some of those hammers have a thru-hole for pinning the socket.

> On Nov 23, 2021, at 1:14 PM, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> I've ordered a retaining ring set for it.  May help.  The socket has a recess 
> for this ring to expand into but at the moment it almost falls out by itself. 
>  The wrench is 10 years old and although not used during that period the 
> rubber had likely hardened and is no longer providing the spring action.
> 
> You can see in the photo that I've used the Dremel to create a dimple for the 
> retaining screw that is in the side of the socket.  However it loosens with 
> the impact driver vibration.  I don't have room to put in a locking set screw 
> and it's too early for Loctite.
> 
> John
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
>> Sent: November-23-21 4:04 AM
>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
>> 
>> On Tuesday 23 November 2021 02:47:59 andy pugh wrote:
>> 
>>> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 01:05, John Dammeyer 
>> wrote:
>>>>  Likely why the set screw works loose after a number of cycles.
>>> 
>>> I am surprised that the air wrench doesn't have the usual ball-detente
>>> to retain the socket.
>> 
>> I have seen some that utilize a spring encircling the end of the driver
>> square, and it works moderately well, with sockets made with an internal
>> cutaway at the bottom of the square well.
>> 
>> But we haven't seen a pix of his setup w/o the socket.
>> 
>> Satire intended: Thats I think to encourage the sales of sockets using
>> that scheme, also convieniently made by the wrench peddlar of course.
>> 
>> That could be Johns problem. In that case John, you may be able to
>> machine the socket or better a new one to utilise that retainer method,
>> but take care, too deep a groove and the socket may be stuck on forever.
>> Show us a closeup pix with the socket removed.
>> 
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
>> --
>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
>> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>> - Louis D. Brandeis
>> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-23 Thread Gene Heskett

On Tuesday 23 November 2021 14:14:23 John Dammeyer wrote:

> I've ordered a retaining ring set for it.  May help.  The socket has a
> recess for this ring to expand into but at the moment it almost falls
> out by itself.  The wrench is 10 years old and although not used
> during that period the rubber had likely hardened and is no longer
> providing the spring action.
>
> You can see in the photo that I've used the Dremel to create a dimple
> for the retaining screw that is in the side of the socket.  However it
> loosens with the impact driver vibration.  I don't have room to put in
> a locking set screw and it's too early for Loctite.

low profile setscrews can be stacked, using the top one to lock the 
bottom one. Works pretty good.

Take care John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

The socket doesn't have a groove and it's very heavy.  The wrench uses a 
retaining ring like in this video
https://youtu.be/8RmhBd1wcEA
but I don't think there's a rubber Oring underneath it.   
I'll report back once the 12 point arrives.  The 6 point is useless for the 
other reasons I've mentioned.
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: November-23-21 4:04 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> On Tuesday 23 November 2021 02:47:59 andy pugh wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 01:05, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> > >   Likely why the set screw works loose after a number of cycles.
> >
> > I am surprised that the air wrench doesn't have the usual ball-detente
> > to retain the socket.
> 
> I have seen some that utilize a spring encircling the end of the driver
> square, and it works moderately well, with sockets made with an internal
> cutaway at the bottom of the square well.
> 
> But we haven't seen a pix of his setup w/o the socket.
> 
> Satire intended: Thats I think to encourage the sales of sockets using
> that scheme, also convieniently made by the wrench peddlar of course.
> 
> That could be Johns problem. In that case John, you may be able to
> machine the socket or better a new one to utilise that retainer method,
> but take care, too deep a groove and the socket may be stuck on forever.
> Show us a closeup pix with the socket removed.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-23 Thread Gene Heskett

On Tuesday 23 November 2021 02:47:59 andy pugh wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 01:05, John Dammeyer  
wrote:
> >   Likely why the set screw works loose after a number of cycles.
>
> I am surprised that the air wrench doesn't have the usual ball-detente
> to retain the socket.

I have seen some that utilize a spring encircling the end of the driver 
square, and it works moderately well, with sockets made with an internal 
cutaway at the bottom of the square well. 

But we haven't seen a pix of his setup w/o the socket.

Satire intended: Thats I think to encourage the sales of sockets using 
that scheme, also convieniently made by the wrench peddlar of course. 

That could be Johns problem. In that case John, you may be able to 
machine the socket or better a new one to utilise that retainer method, 
but take care, too deep a groove and the socket may be stuck on forever. 
Show us a closeup pix with the socket removed.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> 
> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 01:05, John Dammeyer  wrote:
>   
> >   Likely why the set screw works loose after a number of cycles.
> 
> I am surprised that the air wrench doesn't have the usual ball-detente
> to retain the socket.
> 
> --
> atp

It has the standard clip ring with O-Ring underneath.  The Impact Socket is 
heavy, and doesn't have the standard dimples you see in a standard socket.   
Until I get the 12 point socket jury is out on all choices.  I suspect I'm 
going to go electric but one thing I want to try is an exponential PWM on the 
wrench.

Say I want a 1 second burp on the impact wrench.  That's 10x 100mS.  If each 
100mS was PWM where we start with 100mS then 90mS then 80mS etc.. we have a 
linear decay with a hard shove to break loose the torqued nut and then light 
PWM to move the motor slowly to unwind 2 turns or so.

It might need to be more logarithmic so the decay is much faster or the motor 
would again overspeed.  But hard impact to break it loose and then light PWM to 
turn it a tad.

Just a thought.  Won't be hard to program that test tomorrow sometime.

John

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-22 Thread andy pugh

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 01:05, John Dammeyer  wrote:

>   Likely why the set screw works loose after a number of cycles.

I am surprised that the air wrench doesn't have the usual ball-detente
to retain the socket.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

And therein lies the problem.  For your NMBT-30 quick change tooling you could 
just as easily set up wave washers and just press and release the draw bar as 
is done on so many of those instead of turning into the holder itself.  But it 
only requires one or two turns before that large cone is no longer held by 
friction.

Contrast that with .75" or so of the top of the R8 which is a sliding fit with 
supposedly 0.001" difference in diameter.  That requires a substantial push to 
release it compared with the NMBT-30 or TTS that require a push of 0.050" or so.

BTW, for fun I installed the 1/4" TTS held chuck and then manually brought the 
drawbar down with the air cyl.  Then spun the spindle up to 700 RPM on the AXIS 
display. Some LCNC content here...  8-).The airmotor in the wrench, 
although not lubricated with oily air at this point, spun without any issues.  
However it was visibly clear that the draw bar nut wasn't completely centered 
as the bottom of the socket wobbled ever so slightly, and at the top there was 
also ticking noise from the 3/8" socket connection since it wasn't spinning 
concentric with the impact wrench spindle.  Likely why the set screw works 
loose after a number of cycles.

 John



> From: John Figie [mailto:zephyr9...@gmail.com]
> Maybe I didn't fully answer your question. After the tool drops out. If the
> button is held the impact driver will just keep spinning like an unloaded
> impact wrench.
> 
> John
> 
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:57 PM John Figie  wrote:
> 
> > When the load or unload button is pressed the impact driver first moves
> > down and then starts impacting for as long as the button is pressed. I only
> > let it impact for about 1 or 2 seconds.
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:39 PM John Dammeyer 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> So far I'm well under the $974 of the R8 version although if I had to pay
> >> retail for the GIM controller I'm using then I'd be well over that.  So far
> >> I think I'm at about $200 Cdn.  plus I'm using one of the first prototype
> >> GIMs I build almost 10 years ago.
> >>
> >> https://www.kurtworkholding.com/product/kurt-bridgeport-series-i-std-2-j/
> >>
> >> What happens with yours if you pressed the unload button for 5 seconds?
> >> Obviously the tool would drop out.  But does anything else unscrew or
> >> require manual operations to put back?
> >>
> >>
> >> > -Original Message-
> >> > From: John Figie [mailto:zephyr9...@gmail.com]
> >> > Sent: November-22-21 2:30 PM
> >> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> >> >
> >> > Instead of a drawbar with a hex end you could use the kind with a spline
> >> > end like the ones that Kurt sells for their power drawbar. My Bridgeport
> >> > came with a Kurt power drawbar. I have had it since around 2003. Still
> >> > using the same drawbar. The socket looks kind of like a torx socket -
> >> maybe
> >> > it is - I never looked at it that close. The Kurt uses butterfly impact
> >> > kind of like yours. It just uses regulated air pressure. I just let it
> >> > drive the drawbar for about 1 or 2 seconds. It has never stripped and I
> >> > have never replaced the drawbar.  Tooling is NMTB 30. Home shop use
> >> only.
> >> >
> >> > http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
> >> >
> >> > John
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 3:39 PM John Dammeyer 
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hi Mathew,
> >> > > I want to be able to swap easily and quickly between R8 and TTS.
> >> Here's a
> >> > > selection of some of the tooling.
> >> > >
> >> > > http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/ToolSelection.jpg
> >> > >
> >> > >  There's a full set of R8 collets of course.  The spring loaded Tap
> >> Holder
> >> > > has a 3/4" shank so it really just needs a TTS collar to make it full
> >> TTS.
> >> > >   The two gear cutter arbours for the different sized cutters.  Face
> >> mill.
> >> > > Changing from a 1/4" drill bit means I have to swap out the TTS to
> >> install
> >> > > the R8 based expensive 16mm JT3 ball bearing chuck.
> >> > >
> >> > > To change completely over to TTS is expensive.  To change to a mill
> >> with a
> >> > > NMB

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-22 Thread John Figie

Maybe I didn't fully answer your question. After the tool drops out. If the
button is held the impact driver will just keep spinning like an unloaded
impact wrench.

John

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:57 PM John Figie  wrote:

> When the load or unload button is pressed the impact driver first moves
> down and then starts impacting for as long as the button is pressed. I only
> let it impact for about 1 or 2 seconds.
>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:39 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
>
>> So far I'm well under the $974 of the R8 version although if I had to pay
>> retail for the GIM controller I'm using then I'd be well over that.  So far
>> I think I'm at about $200 Cdn.  plus I'm using one of the first prototype
>> GIMs I build almost 10 years ago.
>>
>> https://www.kurtworkholding.com/product/kurt-bridgeport-series-i-std-2-j/
>>
>> What happens with yours if you pressed the unload button for 5 seconds?
>> Obviously the tool would drop out.  But does anything else unscrew or
>> require manual operations to put back?
>>
>>
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: John Figie [mailto:zephyr9...@gmail.com]
>> > Sent: November-22-21 2:30 PM
>> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
>> >
>> > Instead of a drawbar with a hex end you could use the kind with a spline
>> > end like the ones that Kurt sells for their power drawbar. My Bridgeport
>> > came with a Kurt power drawbar. I have had it since around 2003. Still
>> > using the same drawbar. The socket looks kind of like a torx socket -
>> maybe
>> > it is - I never looked at it that close. The Kurt uses butterfly impact
>> > kind of like yours. It just uses regulated air pressure. I just let it
>> > drive the drawbar for about 1 or 2 seconds. It has never stripped and I
>> > have never replaced the drawbar.  Tooling is NMTB 30. Home shop use
>> only.
>> >
>> > http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 3:39 PM John Dammeyer 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi Mathew,
>> > > I want to be able to swap easily and quickly between R8 and TTS.
>> Here's a
>> > > selection of some of the tooling.
>> > >
>> > > http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/ToolSelection.jpg
>> > >
>> > >  There's a full set of R8 collets of course.  The spring loaded Tap
>> Holder
>> > > has a 3/4" shank so it really just needs a TTS collar to make it full
>> TTS.
>> > >   The two gear cutter arbours for the different sized cutters.  Face
>> mill.
>> > > Changing from a 1/4" drill bit means I have to swap out the TTS to
>> install
>> > > the R8 based expensive 16mm JT3 ball bearing chuck.
>> > >
>> > > To change completely over to TTS is expensive.  To change to a mill
>> with a
>> > > NMBT or CAT cone type is really expensive.   The lowest cost power
>> toolbar
>> > > system was the butterfly wrench and air cylinder.  Cost escalated as
>> the
>> > > ordered electric pneumatic valves just never showed up from China so
>> I went
>> > > local.  Not really expensive but it adds up as do all the fittings.
>> > >
>> > > At this point I could see spending as much as $150 Cdn. for the
>> planetary
>> > > gear and stepper combination.Still way less expensive than fully
>> > > switching over to TTS which I probably will over time but not all in
>> one
>> > > shot.   And I'm not sure the TTS wouldn't slip with the 5/8" chuck
>> holding
>> > > a 1" reduced shank drill bit.
>> > >
>> > > First step now is to wait for the 12 point deep socket.
>> > >
>> > > John
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > -Original Message-
>> > > > From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
>> > > > Sent: November-22-21 10:49 AM
>> > > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
>> > > >
>> > > > Hi John,
>> > > >
>> > > > You don?t need pull studs on the R-8 collets, just thread the draw
>> bar
>> > > into the collet. Either until it stops or loctite the draw bar at
>> > > > the right depth. Then use a Belleville washer and

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-22 Thread John Figie

When the load or unload button is pressed the impact driver first moves
down and then starts impacting for as long as the button is pressed. I only
let it impact for about 1 or 2 seconds.

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:39 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

> So far I'm well under the $974 of the R8 version although if I had to pay
> retail for the GIM controller I'm using then I'd be well over that.  So far
> I think I'm at about $200 Cdn.  plus I'm using one of the first prototype
> GIMs I build almost 10 years ago.
>
> https://www.kurtworkholding.com/product/kurt-bridgeport-series-i-std-2-j/
>
> What happens with yours if you pressed the unload button for 5 seconds?
> Obviously the tool would drop out.  But does anything else unscrew or
> require manual operations to put back?
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: John Figie [mailto:zephyr9...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: November-22-21 2:30 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> >
> > Instead of a drawbar with a hex end you could use the kind with a spline
> > end like the ones that Kurt sells for their power drawbar. My Bridgeport
> > came with a Kurt power drawbar. I have had it since around 2003. Still
> > using the same drawbar. The socket looks kind of like a torx socket -
> maybe
> > it is - I never looked at it that close. The Kurt uses butterfly impact
> > kind of like yours. It just uses regulated air pressure. I just let it
> > drive the drawbar for about 1 or 2 seconds. It has never stripped and I
> > have never replaced the drawbar.  Tooling is NMTB 30. Home shop use only.
> >
> > http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 3:39 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Mathew,
> > > I want to be able to swap easily and quickly between R8 and TTS.
> Here's a
> > > selection of some of the tooling.
> > >
> > > http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/ToolSelection.jpg
> > >
> > >  There's a full set of R8 collets of course.  The spring loaded Tap
> Holder
> > > has a 3/4" shank so it really just needs a TTS collar to make it full
> TTS.
> > >   The two gear cutter arbours for the different sized cutters.  Face
> mill.
> > > Changing from a 1/4" drill bit means I have to swap out the TTS to
> install
> > > the R8 based expensive 16mm JT3 ball bearing chuck.
> > >
> > > To change completely over to TTS is expensive.  To change to a mill
> with a
> > > NMBT or CAT cone type is really expensive.   The lowest cost power
> toolbar
> > > system was the butterfly wrench and air cylinder.  Cost escalated as
> the
> > > ordered electric pneumatic valves just never showed up from China so I
> went
> > > local.  Not really expensive but it adds up as do all the fittings.
> > >
> > > At this point I could see spending as much as $150 Cdn. for the
> planetary
> > > gear and stepper combination.Still way less expensive than fully
> > > switching over to TTS which I probably will over time but not all in
> one
> > > shot.   And I'm not sure the TTS wouldn't slip with the 5/8" chuck
> holding
> > > a 1" reduced shank drill bit.
> > >
> > > First step now is to wait for the 12 point deep socket.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
> > > > Sent: November-22-21 10:49 AM
> > > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> > > >
> > > > Hi John,
> > > >
> > > > You don?t need pull studs on the R-8 collets, just thread the draw
> bar
> > > into the collet. Either until it stops or loctite the draw bar at
> > > > the right depth. Then use a Belleville washer and air cylinder setup
> > > like Andy?s.
> > > >
> > > > Matt
> > > >
> > > > > On Nov 22, 2021, at 1:32 PM, John Dammeyer  >
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ?It's the lowering of the wrench that I don't have a lot of control
> > > on.  It's pushed down hard enough to keep the draw bar on top of
> > > > the spindle so as it turns it pushes the sometimes a bit stiff R8 all
> > > the way down and out.  If it's allow to move upwards (or I haven't
> > > > locked th

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

On Monday 22 November 2021 17:30:08 John Figie wrote:

> Instead of a drawbar with a hex end you could use the kind with a
> spline end like the ones that Kurt sells for their power drawbar. My
> Bridgeport came with a Kurt power drawbar. I have had it since around
> 2003. Still using the same drawbar. The socket looks kind of like a
> torx socket - maybe it is - I never looked at it that close. The Kurt
> uses butterfly impact kind of like yours. It just uses regulated air
> pressure. I just let it drive the drawbar for about 1 or 2 seconds. It
> has never stripped and I have never replaced the drawbar.  Tooling is
> NMTB 30. Home shop use only.
>
> http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
>
> John
>
Sweet machine John, wish I had room for one like it. 

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

So far I'm well under the $974 of the R8 version although if I had to pay 
retail for the GIM controller I'm using then I'd be well over that.  So far I 
think I'm at about $200 Cdn.  plus I'm using one of the first prototype GIMs I 
build almost 10 years ago.

https://www.kurtworkholding.com/product/kurt-bridgeport-series-i-std-2-j/

What happens with yours if you pressed the unload button for 5 seconds?  
Obviously the tool would drop out.  But does anything else unscrew or require 
manual operations to put back?


> -Original Message-
> From: John Figie [mailto:zephyr9...@gmail.com]
> Sent: November-22-21 2:30 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> Instead of a drawbar with a hex end you could use the kind with a spline
> end like the ones that Kurt sells for their power drawbar. My Bridgeport
> came with a Kurt power drawbar. I have had it since around 2003. Still
> using the same drawbar. The socket looks kind of like a torx socket - maybe
> it is - I never looked at it that close. The Kurt uses butterfly impact
> kind of like yours. It just uses regulated air pressure. I just let it
> drive the drawbar for about 1 or 2 seconds. It has never stripped and I
> have never replaced the drawbar.  Tooling is NMTB 30. Home shop use only.
> 
> http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
> 
> John
> 
> 
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 3:39 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> > Hi Mathew,
> > I want to be able to swap easily and quickly between R8 and TTS.  Here's a
> > selection of some of the tooling.
> >
> > http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/ToolSelection.jpg
> >
> >  There's a full set of R8 collets of course.  The spring loaded Tap Holder
> > has a 3/4" shank so it really just needs a TTS collar to make it full TTS.
> >   The two gear cutter arbours for the different sized cutters.  Face mill.
> > Changing from a 1/4" drill bit means I have to swap out the TTS to install
> > the R8 based expensive 16mm JT3 ball bearing chuck.
> >
> > To change completely over to TTS is expensive.  To change to a mill with a
> > NMBT or CAT cone type is really expensive.   The lowest cost power toolbar
> > system was the butterfly wrench and air cylinder.  Cost escalated as the
> > ordered electric pneumatic valves just never showed up from China so I went
> > local.  Not really expensive but it adds up as do all the fittings.
> >
> > At this point I could see spending as much as $150 Cdn. for the planetary
> > gear and stepper combination.Still way less expensive than fully
> > switching over to TTS which I probably will over time but not all in one
> > shot.   And I'm not sure the TTS wouldn't slip with the 5/8" chuck holding
> > a 1" reduced shank drill bit.
> >
> > First step now is to wait for the 12 point deep socket.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: November-22-21 10:49 AM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> > >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > You don?t need pull studs on the R-8 collets, just thread the draw bar
> > into the collet. Either until it stops or loctite the draw bar at
> > > the right depth. Then use a Belleville washer and air cylinder setup
> > like Andy?s.
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
> > > > On Nov 22, 2021, at 1:32 PM, John Dammeyer 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ?It's the lowering of the wrench that I don't have a lot of control
> > on.  It's pushed down hard enough to keep the draw bar on top of
> > > the spindle so as it turns it pushes the sometimes a bit stiff R8 all
> > the way down and out.  If it's allow to move upwards (or I haven't
> > > locked the quill) then the drawbar may unthread but I then have to push
> > on the draw bar.
> > > >
> > > > A sensor on the Z down may be what has to happen.  Then repeated tries
> > with blipping the air wrench until it goes down all the
> > > way is an option.
> > > >
> > > > Making a draw bar from oil hardening steel and hardening the head a
> > bit so it doesn't get carved away and ends up more slippery
> > > might also be a requirement.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> -Original Message-
> > > >> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
>

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

On Monday 22 November 2021 16:35:37 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Hi Mathew,
> I want to be able to swap easily and quickly between R8 and TTS. 
> Here's a selection of some of the tooling.
>
> http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/ToolSelection.jpg
>
I've quite a bit more than that John but not the variety. I do any 
slotting I need with EDM. Just as precise, slower too, but no smearing 
of the slot edges.

>  There's a full set of R8 collets of course.  The spring loaded Tap
> Holder has a 3/4" shank so it really just needs a TTS collar to make
> it full TTS.The two gear cutter arbors for the different sized
> cutters.  Face mill.  Changing from a 1/4" drill bit means I have to
> swap out the TTS to install the R8 based expensive 16mm JT3 ball
> bearing chuck.
>
> To change completely over to TTS is expensive.

And gets you slippery tool holding because its pure friction.

> To change to a mill 
> with a NMBT or CAT cone type is really expensive.   The lowest cost
> power toolbar system was the butterfly wrench and air cylinder.  Cost
> escalated as the ordered electric pneumatic valves just never showed
> up from China so I went local.  Not really expensive but it adds up as
> do all the fittings.
>
> At this point I could see spending as much as $150 Cdn. for the
> planetary gear and stepper combination.Still way less expensive
> than fully switching over to TTS which I probably will over time but
> not all in one shot.   And I'm not sure the TTS wouldn't slip with the
> 5/8" chuck holding a 1" reduced shank drill bit.

I'm sure it will if the mill has the cajones to turn a 1" bit at the 
recommended speed and feed per rev. The fix is a notch in the edge of an 
r8, fits the head of a 4mm cap screw installed in the chuck adapter 
shank.  That leaves the next weak point the pin that engages the slot in 
the side of the r8 to keep the r8 from slipping in the spindle. IMO 
thats too small to turn a 1" bit with. It will shear. The question is 
when, not if.
>
> First step now is to wait for the 12 point deep socket.
>
> John
[...]

Take care John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-22 Thread John Figie

Instead of a drawbar with a hex end you could use the kind with a spline
end like the ones that Kurt sells for their power drawbar. My Bridgeport
came with a Kurt power drawbar. I have had it since around 2003. Still
using the same drawbar. The socket looks kind of like a torx socket - maybe
it is - I never looked at it that close. The Kurt uses butterfly impact
kind of like yours. It just uses regulated air pressure. I just let it
drive the drawbar for about 1 or 2 seconds. It has never stripped and I
have never replaced the drawbar.  Tooling is NMTB 30. Home shop use only.

http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html

John


On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 3:39 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

> Hi Mathew,
> I want to be able to swap easily and quickly between R8 and TTS.  Here's a
> selection of some of the tooling.
>
> http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/ToolSelection.jpg
>
>  There's a full set of R8 collets of course.  The spring loaded Tap Holder
> has a 3/4" shank so it really just needs a TTS collar to make it full TTS.
>   The two gear cutter arbours for the different sized cutters.  Face mill.
> Changing from a 1/4" drill bit means I have to swap out the TTS to install
> the R8 based expensive 16mm JT3 ball bearing chuck.
>
> To change completely over to TTS is expensive.  To change to a mill with a
> NMBT or CAT cone type is really expensive.   The lowest cost power toolbar
> system was the butterfly wrench and air cylinder.  Cost escalated as the
> ordered electric pneumatic valves just never showed up from China so I went
> local.  Not really expensive but it adds up as do all the fittings.
>
> At this point I could see spending as much as $150 Cdn. for the planetary
> gear and stepper combination.Still way less expensive than fully
> switching over to TTS which I probably will over time but not all in one
> shot.   And I'm not sure the TTS wouldn't slip with the 5/8" chuck holding
> a 1" reduced shank drill bit.
>
> First step now is to wait for the 12 point deep socket.
>
> John
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: November-22-21 10:49 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > You don�t need pull studs on the R-8 collets, just thread the draw bar
> into the collet. Either until it stops or loctite the draw bar at
> > the right depth. Then use a Belleville washer and air cylinder setup
> like Andy�s.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > > On Nov 22, 2021, at 1:32 PM, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?It's the lowering of the wrench that I don't have a lot of control
> on.  It's pushed down hard enough to keep the draw bar on top of
> > the spindle so as it turns it pushes the sometimes a bit stiff R8 all
> the way down and out.  If it's allow to move upwards (or I haven't
> > locked the quill) then the drawbar may unthread but I then have to push
> on the draw bar.
> > >
> > > A sensor on the Z down may be what has to happen.  Then repeated tries
> with blipping the air wrench until it goes down all the
> > way is an option.
> > >
> > > Making a draw bar from oil hardening steel and hardening the head a
> bit so it doesn't get carved away and ends up more slippery
> > might also be a requirement.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > >> Sent: November-22-21 5:41 AM
> > >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> > >>
> > >>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 08:03, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.
> And since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the
> > >> sensing has to happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex
> head is at a known position.
> > >>
> > >> How about:
> > >>
> > >> Lower the wrench, but don't turn it on.
> > >> Rotate the spindle until the wrench drops down to the "engaged" height
> > >> (sensor on the slide)
> > >> Then operate the wrench.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> atp
> > >> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > >> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > >> lunatics."
> > >> ?

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

Hi Mathew,
I want to be able to swap easily and quickly between R8 and TTS.  Here's a 
selection of some of the tooling. 

http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/ToolSelection.jpg

 There's a full set of R8 collets of course.  The spring loaded Tap Holder has 
a 3/4" shank so it really just needs a TTS collar to make it full TTS.The 
two gear cutter arbours for the different sized cutters.  Face mill.  Changing 
from a 1/4" drill bit means I have to swap out the TTS to install the R8 based 
expensive 16mm JT3 ball bearing chuck.

To change completely over to TTS is expensive.  To change to a mill with a NMBT 
or CAT cone type is really expensive.   The lowest cost power toolbar system 
was the butterfly wrench and air cylinder.  Cost escalated as the ordered 
electric pneumatic valves just never showed up from China so I went local.  Not 
really expensive but it adds up as do all the fittings.

At this point I could see spending as much as $150 Cdn. for the planetary gear 
and stepper combination.Still way less expensive than fully switching over 
to TTS which I probably will over time but not all in one shot.   And I'm not 
sure the TTS wouldn't slip with the 5/8" chuck holding a 1" reduced shank drill 
bit.

First step now is to wait for the 12 point deep socket.  

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
> Sent: November-22-21 10:49 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> You don�t need pull studs on the R-8 collets, just thread the draw bar into 
> the collet. Either until it stops or loctite the draw bar at
> the right depth. Then use a Belleville washer and air cylinder setup like 
> Andy�s.
> 
> Matt
> 
> > On Nov 22, 2021, at 1:32 PM, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> >
> > ?It's the lowering of the wrench that I don't have a lot of control on.  
> > It's pushed down hard enough to keep the draw bar on top of
> the spindle so as it turns it pushes the sometimes a bit stiff R8 all the way 
> down and out.  If it's allow to move upwards (or I haven't
> locked the quill) then the drawbar may unthread but I then have to push on 
> the draw bar.
> >
> > A sensor on the Z down may be what has to happen.  Then repeated tries with 
> > blipping the air wrench until it goes down all the
> way is an option.
> >
> > Making a draw bar from oil hardening steel and hardening the head a bit so 
> > it doesn't get carved away and ends up more slippery
> might also be a requirement.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: November-22-21 5:41 AM
> >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> >>
> >>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 08:03, John Dammeyer  
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.  And 
> >>> since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the
> >> sensing has to happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head 
> >> is at a known position.
> >>
> >> How about:
> >>
> >> Lower the wrench, but don't turn it on.
> >> Rotate the spindle until the wrench drops down to the "engaged" height
> >> (sensor on the slide)
> >> Then operate the wrench.
> >>
> >> --
> >> atp
> >> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> >> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> >> lunatics."
> >> ? George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-22 Thread Matthew Herd

Hi John,

You don’t need pull studs on the R-8 collets, just thread the draw bar into the 
collet. Either until it stops or loctite the draw bar at the right depth. Then 
use a Belleville washer and air cylinder setup like Andy’s. 

Matt

> On Nov 22, 2021, at 1:32 PM, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> It's the lowering of the wrench that I don't have a lot of control on.  It's 
> pushed down hard enough to keep the draw bar on top of the spindle so as it 
> turns it pushes the sometimes a bit stiff R8 all the way down and out.  If 
> it's allow to move upwards (or I haven't locked the quill) then the drawbar 
> may unthread but I then have to push on the draw bar.
> 
> A sensor on the Z down may be what has to happen.  Then repeated tries with 
> blipping the air wrench until it goes down all the way is an option.  
> 
> Making a draw bar from oil hardening steel and hardening the head a bit so it 
> doesn't get carved away and ends up more slippery might also be a requirement.
> 
> John
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: November-22-21 5:41 AM
>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
>> 
>>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 08:03, John Dammeyer  wrote:
>>> 
>>> One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.  And 
>>> since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the
>> sensing has to happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head 
>> is at a known position.
>> 
>> How about:
>> 
>> Lower the wrench, but don't turn it on.
>> Rotate the spindle until the wrench drops down to the "engaged" height
>> (sensor on the slide)
>> Then operate the wrench.
>> 
>> --
>> atp
>> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
>> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
>> lunatics."
>> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

It's the lowering of the wrench that I don't have a lot of control on.  It's 
pushed down hard enough to keep the draw bar on top of the spindle so as it 
turns it pushes the sometimes a bit stiff R8 all the way down and out.  If it's 
allow to move upwards (or I haven't locked the quill) then the drawbar may 
unthread but I then have to push on the draw bar.

A sensor on the Z down may be what has to happen.  Then repeated tries with 
blipping the air wrench until it goes down all the way is an option.  

Making a draw bar from oil hardening steel and hardening the head a bit so it 
doesn't get carved away and ends up more slippery might also be a requirement.

John

> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: November-22-21 5:41 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 08:03, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> > One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.  And 
> > since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the
> sensing has to happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head is 
> at a known position.
> 
> How about:
> 
> Lower the wrench, but don't turn it on.
> Rotate the spindle until the wrench drops down to the "engaged" height
> (sensor on the slide)
> Then operate the wrench.
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

> From: Sam Sokolik [mailto:samco...@gmail.com]
> 
> Can you backdrive the impact wrench?  Keep it engaged?
> 
At the moment the loudest part of my system is the splined spindle shaft 
rattling in the splined pulley drive.  Especially with light cuts or not 
engaged.  Really quite annoying.  Once fully loaded it doesn't rattle of 
course.  But cheap far east mill design or construction has created one issue 
that ultimately I'd like to fix but that would remove the ability to have the 
quill go up and down for manual operations.

A permanent connection between socket and draw bar given that it's not a tight 
fit either would add secondary rattle.  Even more annoying. 

And I'm not sure if the impact wrench could handle that.

BTW, I took apart the old impact driver and the planetary gearbox inside is 
really nice.  Also with a 12V supply that immediately current limited at 3A it 
turned slowly.  So with a big enough 12V supply the old impact driver could be 
put into service.  Not sure how well the hex driver to 3/8" socket would last 
but that's a potential spot for an encoder disk too.

Need to think about this for a day or so.
John




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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

The problem is the air wrench turns freely unlike the electric impact wrenches. 
 So if it even just drops on the wrong point it then stays there and tracks the 
spindle turning.  Been there.  Tried that.  
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: November-22-21 7:06 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> On Monday 22 November 2021 07:01:27 Roland Jollivet wrote:
> 
> > You probably don't need more than 1 bar on the lifting air cylinder,
> > up or down. No need to force it down.
> > So let it down, then if you can give the spindle a 1RPM burst to let
> > the nut slip over.
> > And have a switch on driver Z to know if it's down over the nut.
> >
> > You could also stop the spindle and descend the driver as the spindle
> > reaches it's last 5RPM? before stopping.
> 
> With my spindle, it would be stopped before it dropped a mm BUT rig a
> lever to push the lock pin AND have the motor running at gear change
> speeds. The wrench would fall, pressing on the lock pin, put half a bar
> down pressure one second after initiating the move, the spindle would
> match the nut and the socket falls over it. At that point it all turns
> until the lock pin falls into the hole which would close the engaged
> switch telling linuxcnc to stop the spindle, the wrench is in position
> to initiate the unlock. bring in the carousel, do the unlock, terminate
> the unlock on the second pulse from the magnet. The tool should drop
> into the waiting carousel pocket it came out of. Raise the head for
> clearance to turn the carousel, turn it to the selected tool, drop the
> head onto that tool and drive the air motor in the oposite direction
> long enough to get a good grip on the tool. raise the head, get the
> carousel out of the way and lift the air motor and socket back off the
> nut, releasing the lock pin. Give it a second to hit the upper stop, and
> let linuxcnc restart full spindle control.  No spindle to nut
> positioning needed. M6 t# is done. Most of it is sequenced by classic
> ladder code. restart the spindle in creep speed fwd to release the pin
> and nut at the end of the lockup. Tally switch the upper stop to let
> linuxcnc know its safe to TLO measure this tool, spin up the spindle and
> get back to work.  Whats not to like?
> 
> > Roland
> >
> > On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:03, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> > > > From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> > > >
> > > > On 11/21/21 9:24 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > > > Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the
> > > > > index
> > >
> > > and stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like
> > >
> > > > decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when
> > > > the
> > >
> > > index happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the
> > >
> > > > user interface?
> > > >
> > > > If I were? doing that? today I would use 3 sensors. IOW a guard
> > > > sensor either side of index, rotate quickly to detection of guard
> > > > slow way down and search for the central sensor. How you know
> > > > which is the shortest path is left as an exercise for the
> > > > "student". ;-) Or maybe one simply defaults to searching in one
> > > > direction.
> > > >
> > > > If you don't need orientation then a stepper motor and a gear
> > > > would seem to be as simplistic as one can get.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > >
> > > One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.
> > > And since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the
> > > sensing has to happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until
> > > hex head is at a known position.  Then rotate socket from and
> > > indexed position until it matches the socket and then send it down.
> > > This could all happen in under 100mS and be almost transparent to an
> > > end user.
> > >
> > > There are times where I wish I had BMT-30 cone type tooling or just
> > > only TTS.
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

First of all.  Way cool video.  Thanks for that link.  Didn't even speed 
through it.

A pull stud on R8 tools.  Interesting concept.  Not sure there's room inside 
the spindle for that.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
> Sent: November-22-21 4:15 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> What about a custom draw bar with an Andy Pugh style air cylinder release?  
> Seems simpler to engineer the mechanism than do all
> this control. Just have a drawbar that�s normally retracted with a flange. 
> Engage the flange with a mechanism on an air cylinder to
> release.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mZWQvq-X7DQ
> 
> I think you could probably adapt the idea without the need to make your own 
> air cylinder, but the idea is sound.  No need to invent
> pull studs or pull stud fingers either. Just thread the other end of the draw 
> bar into the collet. Preferably with some Loctite or a
> similar solution.
> 
> Matt
> 
> >
> > On Nov 22, 2021, at 7:06 AM, Roland Jollivet  
> > wrote:
> >
> > ?You probably don't need more than 1 bar on the lifting air cylinder, up or
> > down. No need to force it down.
> > So let it down, then if you can give the spindle a 1RPM burst to let the
> > nut slip over.
> > And have a switch on driver Z to know if it's down over the nut.
> >
> > You could also stop the spindle and descend the driver as the spindle
> > reaches it's last 5RPM? before stopping.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-22 Thread Sam Sokolik

Can you backdrive the impact wrench?  Keep it engaged?

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:45 AM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> Thanks Roland,
> What I've found is that once the socket has reached that midpoint between
> flats it sticks there.  Rounding off the edges of the inside didn't fix it
> but did help.  I can even shut off the air so I can pull it down slowly
> against the return spring pressure and turn the spindle carefully by hand
> and I can still make it stick in that one area.
>
> The problem with turning the spindle is that the socket spins freely in
> the wrench so even the slightest bit of friction once it touches the nut
> causes it to turn with the spindle.  I tried 1RPM all the way up to 30RPM
> and it didn't matter.  The rounding of the nut and socket means 50% of the
> time it works perfectly and the other 50% sticks.
>
> Also if my set screw is too loose then on the way up the socket pulls
> out.  And the set screw loosens after about 10 cylces.  Hardened metal
> against hardened metal doesn't work well.  A softer screw didn't work much
> better.  Way to much rattle on the socket/driver connection.
>
> I never thought I'd have this much trouble...
> John
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Roland Jollivet [mailto:roland.jolli...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: November-22-21 4:01 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> >
> > You probably don't need more than 1 bar on the lifting air cylinder, up
> or
> > down. No need to force it down.
> > So let it down, then if you can give the spindle a 1RPM burst to let the
> > nut slip over.
> > And have a switch on driver Z to know if it's down over the nut.
> >
> > You could also stop the spindle and descend the driver as the spindle
> > reaches it's last 5RPM? before stopping.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:03, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> > > > On 11/21/21 9:24 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > > > Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the index
> > > and stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like
> > > > decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when
> the
> > > index happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the
> > > > user interface?
> > > > >
> > > > If I were? doing that? today I would use 3 sensors. IOW a guard
> sensor
> > > > either side of index, rotate quickly to detection of guard slow way
> down
> > > > and search for the central sensor. How you know which is the shortest
> > > > path is left as an exercise for the "student". ;-) Or maybe one
> simply
> > > > defaults to searching in one direction.
> > > >
> > > > If you don't need orientation then a stepper motor and a gear would
> seem
> > > > to be as simplistic as one can get.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > >
> > > One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.
> And
> > > since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the sensing
> has to
> > > happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head is at a
> known
> > > position.  Then rotate socket from and indexed position until it
> matches
> > > the socket and then send it down.  This could all happen in under
> 100mS and
> > > be almost transparent to an end user.
> > >
> > > There are times where I wish I had BMT-30 cone type tooling or just
> only
> > > TTS.
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

Thanks Roland,
What I've found is that once the socket has reached that midpoint between flats 
it sticks there.  Rounding off the edges of the inside didn't fix it but did 
help.  I can even shut off the air so I can pull it down slowly against the 
return spring pressure and turn the spindle carefully by hand and I can still 
make it stick in that one area.

The problem with turning the spindle is that the socket spins freely in the 
wrench so even the slightest bit of friction once it touches the nut causes it 
to turn with the spindle.  I tried 1RPM all the way up to 30RPM and it didn't 
matter.  The rounding of the nut and socket means 50% of the time it works 
perfectly and the other 50% sticks.

Also if my set screw is too loose then on the way up the socket pulls out.  And 
the set screw loosens after about 10 cylces.  Hardened metal against hardened 
metal doesn't work well.  A softer screw didn't work much better.  Way to much 
rattle on the socket/driver connection.

I never thought I'd have this much trouble...
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Roland Jollivet [mailto:roland.jolli...@gmail.com]
> Sent: November-22-21 4:01 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.
> 
> You probably don't need more than 1 bar on the lifting air cylinder, up or
> down. No need to force it down.
> So let it down, then if you can give the spindle a 1RPM burst to let the
> nut slip over.
> And have a switch on driver Z to know if it's down over the nut.
> 
> You could also stop the spindle and descend the driver as the spindle
> reaches it's last 5RPM? before stopping.
> 
> Roland
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:03, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> >
> > > From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> > > On 11/21/21 9:24 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > > Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the index
> > and stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like
> > > decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when the
> > index happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the
> > > user interface?
> > > >
> > > If I were? doing that? today I would use 3 sensors. IOW a guard sensor
> > > either side of index, rotate quickly to detection of guard slow way down
> > > and search for the central sensor. How you know which is the shortest
> > > path is left as an exercise for the "student". ;-) Or maybe one simply
> > > defaults to searching in one direction.
> > >
> > > If you don't need orientation then a stepper motor and a gear would seem
> > > to be as simplistic as one can get.
> > >
> > > Dave
> >
> > One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.  And
> > since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the sensing has to
> > happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head is at a known
> > position.  Then rotate socket from and indexed position until it matches
> > the socket and then send it down.  This could all happen in under 100mS and
> > be almost transparent to an end user.
> >
> > There are times where I wish I had BMT-30 cone type tooling or just only
> > TTS.
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

On Monday 22 November 2021 07:01:27 Roland Jollivet wrote:

> You probably don't need more than 1 bar on the lifting air cylinder,
> up or down. No need to force it down.
> So let it down, then if you can give the spindle a 1RPM burst to let
> the nut slip over.
> And have a switch on driver Z to know if it's down over the nut.
>
> You could also stop the spindle and descend the driver as the spindle
> reaches it's last 5RPM? before stopping.

With my spindle, it would be stopped before it dropped a mm BUT rig a 
lever to push the lock pin AND have the motor running at gear change 
speeds. The wrench would fall, pressing on the lock pin, put half a bar 
down pressure one second after initiating the move, the spindle would 
match the nut and the socket falls over it. At that point it all turns 
until the lock pin falls into the hole which would close the engaged 
switch telling linuxcnc to stop the spindle, the wrench is in position 
to initiate the unlock. bring in the carousel, do the unlock, terminate 
the unlock on the second pulse from the magnet. The tool should drop 
into the waiting carousel pocket it came out of. Raise the head for 
clearance to turn the carousel, turn it to the selected tool, drop the 
head onto that tool and drive the air motor in the oposite direction 
long enough to get a good grip on the tool. raise the head, get the 
carousel out of the way and lift the air motor and socket back off the 
nut, releasing the lock pin. Give it a second to hit the upper stop, and 
let linuxcnc restart full spindle control.  No spindle to nut 
positioning needed. M6 t# is done. Most of it is sequenced by classic 
ladder code. restart the spindle in creep speed fwd to release the pin 
and nut at the end of the lockup. Tally switch the upper stop to let 
linuxcnc know its safe to TLO measure this tool, spin up the spindle and 
get back to work.  Whats not to like?

> Roland
>
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:03, John Dammeyer  
wrote:
> > > From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> > >
> > > On 11/21/21 9:24 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > > Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the
> > > > index
> >
> > and stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like
> >
> > > decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when
> > > the
> >
> > index happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the
> >
> > > user interface?
> > >
> > > If I were� doing that� today I would use 3 sensors. IOW a guard
> > > sensor either side of index, rotate quickly to detection of guard
> > > slow way down and search for the central sensor. How you know
> > > which is the shortest path is left as an exercise for the
> > > "student". ;-) Or maybe one simply defaults to searching in one
> > > direction.
> > >
> > > If you don't need orientation then a stepper motor and a gear
> > > would seem to be as simplistic as one can get.
> > >
> > > Dave
> >
> > One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar. 
> > And since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the
> > sensing has to happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until
> > hex head is at a known position.  Then rotate socket from and
> > indexed position until it matches the socket and then send it down. 
> > This could all happen in under 100mS and be almost transparent to an
> > end user.
> >
> > There are times where I wish I had BMT-30 cone type tooling or just
> > only TTS.
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-22 Thread andy pugh

On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 08:03, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.  And 
> since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the sensing has to 
> happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head is at a known 
> position.

How about:

Lower the wrench, but don't turn it on.
Rotate the spindle until the wrench drops down to the "engaged" height
(sensor on the slide)
Then operate the wrench.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-22 Thread Matthew Herd

What about a custom draw bar with an Andy Pugh style air cylinder release?  
Seems simpler to engineer the mechanism than do all this control. Just have a 
drawbar that’s normally retracted with a flange. Engage the flange with a 
mechanism on an air cylinder to release. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mZWQvq-X7DQ

I think you could probably adapt the idea without the need to make your own air 
cylinder, but the idea is sound.  No need to invent pull studs or pull stud 
fingers either. Just thread the other end of the draw bar into the collet. 
Preferably with some Loctite or a similar solution. 

Matt

> 
> On Nov 22, 2021, at 7:06 AM, Roland Jollivet  
> wrote:
> 
> You probably don't need more than 1 bar on the lifting air cylinder, up or
> down. No need to force it down.
> So let it down, then if you can give the spindle a 1RPM burst to let the
> nut slip over.
> And have a switch on driver Z to know if it's down over the nut.
> 
> You could also stop the spindle and descend the driver as the spindle
> reaches it's last 5RPM? before stopping.
> 
> Roland
> 

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[Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-22 Thread Roland Jollivet

You probably don't need more than 1 bar on the lifting air cylinder, up or
down. No need to force it down.
So let it down, then if you can give the spindle a 1RPM burst to let the
nut slip over.
And have a switch on driver Z to know if it's down over the nut.

You could also stop the spindle and descend the driver as the spindle
reaches it's last 5RPM? before stopping.

Roland



On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 10:03, John Dammeyer  wrote:

>
> > From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> > On 11/21/21 9:24 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the index
> and stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like
> > decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when the
> index happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the
> > user interface?
> > >
> > If I were� doing that� today I would use 3 sensors. IOW a guard sensor
> > either side of index, rotate quickly to detection of guard slow way down
> > and search for the central sensor. How you know which is the shortest
> > path is left as an exercise for the "student". ;-) Or maybe one simply
> > defaults to searching in one direction.
> >
> > If you don't need orientation then a stepper motor and a gear would seem
> > to be as simplistic as one can get.
> >
> > Dave
>
> One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.  And
> since it can be at any position relative to the spindle the sensing has to
> happen against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head is at a known
> position.  Then rotate socket from and indexed position until it matches
> the socket and then send it down.  This could all happen in under 100mS and
> be almost transparent to an end user.
>
> There are times where I wish I had BMT-30 cone type tooling or just only
> TTS.
> John
>
>
>
>
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>

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

On Monday 22 November 2021 02:48:36 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > I assume you have a similar, fixed position spindle lock? I had to
> > make mine.
>
> Nope.  As a friend said the other day when I asked if he'd found a
> lock on his... "I use a big hammer on the supplied wrench to tighten
> or loosen it".  He's since carved a 3/4" hex head on his and is now
> using his electric impact driver manually.
>
> > Doing that twice, to position the socket as its comes down to fully
> > engage the drawbar should be doable with a dup of the same idea, but
> > since that needs to be done while its up, maybe a second ring and
> > magnet on the socket to make it work in the up position. That would
> > also give you the rotational tweek for free. The impact driver, with
> > a short 1/4" hex to 3/8" adapter should solve the socket dropping
> > problem too.
>
> Humans are funny creatures.  We do things so easily that are difficult
> for a machine.  So we reach up and place the 6 point socket over the
> draw bar.  If it doesn't go down right away we just angle/tilt/twist
> the driver a bit until it slips down and then we press the trigger.
>
> My air cylinder just rams down the driver and the 6 point socket and
> even with rounding of the inside edges of the socket it's still been
> scraping away metal on the nut.  It's not looking great at the moment
> at the attached photo shows.  Hence I'm waiting for the 12 point deep
> socket.  I don't have enough adjustment space for a normal length 12
> point and most of the 19mm sockets appear to only be 6 point for some
> reason.

Most of the 19's are 6 because they fit older spark plugs too.

Timed right, the 6 point would be easier on the bolt. On my little g0704, 
its a 10mm square but I'm using an 8 point socket, I haven't found a 4 
point, doubt they are even made. A 12 point would likely wipe the 
corners off. The adapter locks into the tool, and the ball bearing 
detent in the 4 point 1/4" adapter grabs the socket pretty firmly. I'd 
assume the 3/8" adapter would be more than adequate to hold even the 
heavier deep socket.

> If I had a magnet on the drawbar nut assembly (or reflective tape) I
> could rotate the spindle until I know where the one of the 6 flats is.

Humm... There is probably a random thread start for different collets, I 
have them (r8 collets) from at least 5 makers making the flat random 
even if tight.  To reliaby find it, I think you'd have to put glossy 
paint on a fresh bolt with polished flats and search for the peak 
reflectance off the gloss to nail it down accurately enough. Paint it 
all, any flat would do.  And a 12 point wouldn't wear the paint off the 
middle of the flat, so the paint ought to last a long time.  And I'd use 
a dark paint, its the glossy reflectance peak you want to search for. 
Glossy black would probably be best. Its the gloss you want to use as a 
mirror. Off axis glossy black is the best black there is. Back when we 
used tube color tv cameras, making a good black adjustment was the most 
precious adjustment, so we often cut the black velvet out of the center 
of a linearity stair step card, putting a curved partial spiral painted 
glossy black on the inside, on the back of the hole. The gloss made the 
light going into that spiral, it bounces back and forth in the spiral 
until it was absorbed totaly, making a true black hole. Light goes in 
and never comes back out. Hell of a thing to do to a $600 card (1990 
prices)

>  At that point if I had fine enough control over the drive unit I
> could turn the socket until the flats were reasonably lined up before
> I send the socket down.
>
> Yes.  I'm making  this overly complicated.  It's what I do.  I can't
> help myself.  You are allowed to laugh. John
>
And I am, but It's not at you, its with you I hope...
I'm the same way but since I'm a CET, its the electronics that get the 
attention. And folks don't always see the magic, its hidden behind the 
poorly finished mechanics. So go ahead, laugh at my stuff but it usually 
works well.

That sheldon has been rode hard and put away wet, 13 thou of bed wear 
right in front of the spindle, but thanks to linuxcnc, it still cuts a 
pretty good cylinder 36" long.

Cheers John, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

> From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> On 11/21/21 9:24 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the index and 
> > stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like
> decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when the index 
> happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the
> user interface?
> >
> If I were� doing that� today I would use 3 sensors. IOW a guard sensor
> either side of index, rotate quickly to detection of guard slow way down
> and search for the central sensor. How you know which is the shortest
> path is left as an exercise for the "student". ;-) Or maybe one simply
> defaults to searching in one direction.
> 
> If you don't need orientation then a stepper motor and a gear would seem
> to be as simplistic as one can get.
> 
> Dave

One still has to line up the socket to the hex head of the drawbar.  And since 
it can be at any position relative to the spindle the sensing has to happen 
against the hex head.  Rotate spindle until hex head is at a known position.  
Then rotate socket from and indexed position until it matches the socket and 
then send it down.  This could all happen in under 100mS and be almost 
transparent to an end user.

There are times where I wish I had BMT-30 cone type tooling or just only TTS.
John

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-21 Thread John Dammeyer

> I assume you have a similar, fixed position spindle lock? I had to make
> mine.

Nope.  As a friend said the other day when I asked if he'd found a lock on 
his... "I use a big hammer on the supplied wrench to tighten or loosen it".  
He's since carved a 3/4" hex head on his and is now using his electric impact 
driver manually.

> 
> Doing that twice, to position the socket as its comes down to fully
> engage the drawbar should be doable with a dup of the same idea, but
> since that needs to be done while its up, maybe a second ring and magnet
> on the socket to make it work in the up position. That would also give
> you the rotational tweek for free. The impact driver, with a short 1/4"
> hex to 3/8" adapter should solve the socket dropping problem too.

Humans are funny creatures.  We do things so easily that are difficult for a 
machine.  So we reach up and place the 6 point socket over the draw bar.  If it 
doesn't go down right away we just angle/tilt/twist the driver a bit until it 
slips down and then we press the trigger.

My air cylinder just rams down the driver and the 6 point socket and even with 
rounding of the inside edges of the socket it's still been scraping away metal 
on the nut.  It's not looking great at the moment at the attached photo shows.  
Hence I'm waiting for the 12 point deep socket.  I don't have enough adjustment 
space for a normal length 12 point and most of the 19mm sockets appear to only 
be 6 point for some reason.

If I had a magnet on the drawbar nut assembly (or reflective tape) I could 
rotate the spindle until I know where the one of the 6 flats is.  At that point 
if I had fine enough control over the drive unit I could turn the socket until 
the flats were reasonably lined up before I send the socket down.

Yes.  I'm making  this overly complicated.  It's what I do.  I can't help 
myself.  You are allowed to laugh.
John


> 
> Cheers John, Gene Heskett.
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-21 Thread dave engvall

On 11/21/21 9:24 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

I'm running my AC Servo spindle motor as step/dir and can easily tell LCNC to
do 1 RPM. I also have the quadrature encoder on it so I can do power tapping.
The drive is through the MESA 7i92H as one of the stepper channels as is the
encoder signals.

Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the index and stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot? Like decelerate to 0.5 rev per second (30 RPM) or slower and stop when the index happens? With either an M5 or the button on the user interface?

I currently have acceleration/deceleration set high so it reverses quickly with power tapping. Not to mention the ratio from motor to spindle isn't quite 1:1 because I didn't turn the pulleys exactly the same diameter or groove depth. But on an M5 a deceleration to 30 RPM and then a complete stop on the index edge.

Thanks

John
Some of the '80 vintage Mazaks used a hydraulic cam to index the
spindle. Fast and positive.
Stop the spindle, rotate with cam which locks orientation for tool
change, change tool, get the cam clear of the drive pin, start spindle.

If I were doing that today I would use 3 sensors. IOW a guard sensor
either side of index, rotate quickly to detection of guard slow way down
and search for the central sensor. How you know which is the shortest
path is left as an exercise for the "student". ;-) Or maybe one simply
defaults to searching in one direction.

If you don't need orientation then a stepper motor and a gear would seem
to be as simplistic as one can get.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-21 Thread Gene Heskett

On Monday 22 November 2021 00:24:40 John Dammeyer wrote:

> I'm running my AC Servo spindle motor as step/dir and can easily tell
> LCNC to do 1 RPM.   I also have the quadrature encoder on it so I can
> do power tapping.  The drive is through the MESA 7i92H as one of the
> stepper channels as is the encoder signals.
>
> Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the index
> and stop so it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like
> decelerate to 0.5 rev per second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when the
> index happens?  With either an M5 or the button on the user interface?
>
> I currently have acceleration/deceleration set high so it reverses
> quickly with power tapping.  Not to mention the ratio from motor to
> spindle isn't quite 1:1 because I didn't turn the pulleys exactly the
> same diameter or groove depth.  But on an M5 a deceleration to 30 RPM
> and then a complete stop on the index edge.
>
> Thanks
> John
This is a separate problem, but it should be solvable even for me with a 
pwm-servo driving a 1 hp pmdc motor.

An expansion of what I'm doing when I reach up to change gears. I have a 
mux4 in the path to the pid with a limit3 between the output of the mux4 
and the pid to slow the speed change at reversal into a ramp that the z 
axis can follow without throwing a following error when rigid tapping.

The sel inputs come from 2 tally switches on the knob, so I have 2 of the 
4 selections determined by the tally switches, neither of which is true 
unless the knob is within 2 or 3 degrees of fully engaged. This gives 2 
positions of input selection on the mux4. So instead of zero volts on 
the other two inputs, a small setp runs the motor at about 30 or 40 
rpm's. There's no engagement ramps to speak of on those plastic gears 
and that means the gears are moving plenty slow enough to self mesh as I 
turn the knob and the spindle only returns to the set speed when the 
gears are fully engaged and that particular tally switch closes. Control 
of the motor is quite instant in human time, but I can have it turning 
1500 revs, wide open in low gear, reach up and turn the shift kbob, the 
motor is down to 40 revs in about 200 milliseconds, my wrist runs out of 
twist so I have to change grips to finish the shift, the gears remesh 
without stalling the knob and 200 milliseconds after it's home in high 
gear, the spindle is up to wide open at 3000 rpms.

I think I could put a counter in the hal that was zeroed on the index, 
use that to oneshot the the slow speed signal, and stop it on the next 
index pulse since in my case the index is an ats667 watching a steel pin 
on the drawbar retainer cap. So the index remains timed to the spindle 
and another mux changes the scale so the pyvcp tach always reads the 
spindles real speed. Yes, the scale change is independent from the index 
but thats self correcting on the next index, so theoreticly I could set 
both the socket and the spindle to any arbtrary position. One of them 
needs to be adjustable and since I lock the spindle with a spring loaded 
pin to change tools, its the socket that needs the tweek.

I still think the spring in the air motor thats making it overspin should 
be replaced with the impact screw tool since crowbaring its motor will 
be a considerably more precise stop without abusing a mechanical stop. 
More like hydraulics. The trigger replacement would be one of these:

at about $7 usd, drive it with both outputs of a pwmgen in mode 2.

I assume you have a similar, fixed position spindle lock? I had to make 
mine.

Doing that twice, to position the socket as its comes down to fully 
engage the drawbar should be doable with a dup of the same idea, but 
since that needs to be done while its up, maybe a second ring and magnet 
on the socket to make it work in the up position. That would also give 
you the rotational tweek for fre

[Emc-users] Spindle positioning.

2021-11-21 Thread John Dammeyer

I'm running my AC Servo spindle motor as step/dir and can easily tell LCNC to 
do 1 RPM.   I also have the quadrature encoder on it so I can do power tapping. 
 The drive is through the MESA 7i92H as one of the stepper channels as is the 
encoder signals.
 
Is there a way to tell the spindle to turn until it finds the index and stop so 
it's always stopping at the exact same spot?  Like decelerate to 0.5 rev per 
second  (30 RPM) or slower and stop when the index happens?  With either an M5 
or the button on the user interface?
 
I currently have acceleration/deceleration set high so it reverses quickly with 
power tapping.  Not to mention the ratio from motor to spindle isn't quite 1:1 
because I didn't turn the pulleys exactly the same diameter or groove depth.  
But on an M5 a deceleration to 30 RPM and then a complete stop on the index 
edge.
 
Thanks
John

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-11-19 Thread Gene Heskett

On Friday 19 November 2021 09:33:20 Alan Condit wrote:

> Gene,
>
> Sorry, this message got sent in error. I was working on my wife’s iPad
> and some how a draft of an old message got sent rather than deleted.
>
> Alan
NP Alan, but did you get it fixed?

> From: Gene Heskett 
>
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Cc:
> > Bcc:
> > Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 18:40:59 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76
> >
> > On Thursday 18 November 2021 17:57:19 Alan Condit wrote:
> > > I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76
> > > combo. I thought I had everything working but I still can’t get
> > > the spindle working correctly. I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor
> > > that I am controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am
> > > using the analog out from the 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to
> > > control the spindle speed. I have a 100 count encoder with index
> > > (homemade) on the spindle. The spindle starts under LCNC control
> > > but I am not getting an “at speed indication” at above 60rpm.
> >
> > I might add that most of those treadmill controllers are far from
> > linear controllers even with a large buildout resistor between the
> > 7i76 card and their actual speed. The Pico Systems PWM-SERVO amp is
> > the answer but be sure and tell Jon your are running a spindle motor
> > with it which is a CCS load, it normally comes with an ICAS tuning
> > for servo's which stop when they get there, spindles don't. The Pico
> > will need a suitable analog DC power supply, whereas the Cycletrol
> > probably runs from raw AC. I have used the treadmill controllers, a
> > couple times, but never got good control so it was only till I built
> > a better way.
> >
> > Now I use large amounts of P-Gain and the only indication of excess
> > load is when Jons driver throttles the motor at about 18 amps,
> > making the iron in the motor chirp quietly.  Thats right close to 2
> > hp from a 1hp rated motor but neither has even needed fresh brushes
> > in years.
> >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-11-19 Thread Alan Condit

Gene,

Sorry, this message got sent in error. I was working on my wife’s iPad and
some how a draft of an old message got sent rather than deleted.

Alan
From: Gene Heskett 

> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 18:40:59 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76
> On Thursday 18 November 2021 17:57:19 Alan Condit wrote:
>
> > I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I
> > thought I had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle
> > working correctly. I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am
> > controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the
> > analog out from the 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the
> > spindle speed. I have a 100 count encoder with index (homemade) on the
> > spindle. The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an
> > “at speed indication” at above 60rpm.
> >
> I might add that most of those treadmill controllers are far from linear
> controllers even with a large buildout resistor between the 7i76 card
> and their actual speed. The Pico Systems PWM-SERVO amp is the answer but
> be sure and tell Jon your are running a spindle motor with it which is a
> CCS load, it normally comes with an ICAS tuning for servo's which stop
> when they get there, spindles don't. The Pico will need a suitable
> analog DC power supply, whereas the Cycletrol probably runs from raw AC.
> I have used the treadmill controllers, a couple times, but never got good
> control so it was only till I built a better way.
>
> Now I use large amounts of P-Gain and the only indication of excess load
> is when Jons driver throttles the motor at about 18 amps, making the
> iron in the motor chirp quietly.  Thats right close to 2 hp from a 1hp
> rated motor but neither has even needed fresh brushes in years.
>
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-11-18 Thread Gene Heskett

On Thursday 18 November 2021 17:57:19 Alan Condit wrote:

> I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I
> thought I had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle
> working correctly. I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am
> controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the
> analog out from the 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the
> spindle speed. I have a 100 count encoder with index (homemade) on the
> spindle. The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an
> “at speed indication” at above 60rpm.
>
I might add that most of those treadmill controllers are far from linear 
controllers even with a large buildout resistor between the 7i76 card 
and their actual speed. The Pico Systems PWM-SERVO amp is the answer but 
be sure and tell Jon your are running a spindle motor with it which is a 
CCS load, it normally comes with an ICAS tuning for servo's which stop 
when they get there, spindles don't. The Pico will need a suitable 
analog DC power supply, whereas the Cycletrol probably runs from raw AC.
I have used the treadmill controllers, a couple times, but never got good 
control so it was only till I built a better way.

Now I use large amounts of P-Gain and the only indication of excess load 
is when Jons driver throttles the motor at about 18 amps, making the 
iron in the motor chirp quietly.  Thats right close to 2 hp from a 1hp 
rated motor but neither has even needed fresh brushes in years.

> Sent from my iPad
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-11-18 Thread Gene Heskett

On Thursday 18 November 2021 17:57:19 Alan Condit wrote:

> I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I
> thought I had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle
> working correctly. I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am
> controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the
> analog out from the 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the
> spindle speed. I have a 100 count encoder with index (homemade) on the
> spindle. The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an
> “at speed indication” at above 60rpm.
>
Can you post that piece of your .hal file?

Your 100 count encoder, if quadrature output and index, (ABX or ABZ) 
should be running with a 400 "SPINDLE_SCALE" in the ini file, as its 
edges that usually count. Hooking up a pyvcp tach might be a good move.

Checking the encoder output with a decent triggered scope would serve as 
a speed chck by measureing the time from rising edge to the next rising 
edge, and taking the reciprical which would be the speed in rps, 
multiply by 60 for rpm.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

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[Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-11-18 Thread Alan Condit


I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I thought I 
had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle working correctly.
I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am controlling with a Cycletrol-150 
DC controller. The am using the analog out from the 7i76 to replace the 
potentiometer to control the spindle speed. I have a 100 count encoder with 
index (homemade) on the spindle.
The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an “at speed 
indication” at above 60rpm. 


Sent from my iPad

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-09-14 Thread andy pugh

On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 22:54, Alan Condit  wrote:
> I have the Cycletrol-150 Manual. It says that you can replace the 5k ohm 
> potentiometer with a 0-10v analog signal. The 7i76 manual says that you can 
> use it to replace a 5k potentiometer control (0-10v). So that should work and 
> indeed seems to be working. I have tried adjusting the detectors to 90°. I 
> have an old Tectronix scope and they look pretty good there. It now has a 
> solid “at speed indication” up to about 250rpm. So now I am suspecting that I 
> don’t have the PNCConf configuration quite correct for the spindle. At the 
> top of the range the Speed Indicator fluctuates from about 400 to 600 rpm 
> while the motor sounds like it is holding dead steady.

You could try plotting encoder _position_ in Halscope to see if it is
a straight line.
(trigger halscope on a falling edge of spindle index enable, then
start (for example) a G33 move)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-09-13 Thread Gene Heskett

On Monday 13 September 2021 18:20:17 Alan Condit wrote:

> Update, I found some old photos of the motor’s id plate. I thought it
> was rated at 6000 rpm at 110 volts, but it was really only 3000rpm at
> 110volts. When I adjusted the maximum rpm in PNCConf, suddenly I was
> getting a solid “At Speed” indicator.
>
> John,
>I will still try measuring the analog voltage at various rpms and
> if I can get at it I will measure the DC voltage out.
>
> Peter,
> Thanks for the suggestion about the encoder phasing, I don’t think
> it was going to work without fixing that.
>
> Gene,
>  Could you go ahead and send me your configs. I can have a
> jackshaft driven by toothed belt with a 3 step pulley or a pair of
> three step pulleys on the motor and spindle. So six possible gearing
> combinations.
>
I'll tarball that whole config directory and send it by PM.

But, even with 6 speeds, you are belt driven so there will be an unk 
amount of belt slippage.  So if turning a spindle, the random slippage 
will probably trash any holes you try to to rigid tap. The bare minimum 
still needs a once per rev index pulse from the spindle.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-09-13 Thread Alan Condit

Update, I found some old photos of the motor’s id plate. I thought it was rated 
at 6000 rpm at 110 volts, but it was really only 3000rpm at 110volts. When I 
adjusted the maximum rpm in PNCConf, suddenly I was getting a solid “At Speed” 
indicator. 

John,
   I will still try measuring the analog voltage at various rpms and if I can 
get at it I will measure the DC voltage out.

Peter,
Thanks for the suggestion about the encoder phasing, I don’t think it was 
going to work without fixing that.

Gene,
 Could you go ahead and send me your configs. I can have a jackshaft driven 
by toothed belt with a 3 step pulley or a pair of three step pulleys on the 
motor and spindle. So six possible gearing combinations.


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-09-13 Thread Gene Heskett

On Monday 13 September 2021 16:51:42 Alan Condit wrote:

> John, Peter and Gene,
>
> I have the Cycletrol-150 Manual. It says that you can replace the 5k
> ohm potentiometer with a 0-10v analog signal. The 7i76 manual says
> that you can use it to replace a 5k potentiometer control (0-10v). So
> that should work and indeed seems to be working. I have tried
> adjusting the detectors to 90°. I have an old Tectronix scope and they
> look pretty good there. It now has a solid “at speed indication” up to
> about 250rpm. So now I am suspecting that I don’t have the PNCConf
> configuration quite correct for the spindle. At the top of the range
> the Speed Indicator fluctuates from about 400 to 600 rpm while the
> motor sounds like it is holding dead steady. One of my problems is
> that I don’t actually know what the rpm of the motor should be at
> 90volts. It is a Pacific Scientific motor rated 1.5hp at 110v DC.
>
> Thanks,
> Alan

If you are falling apart at 250 rpms, the first thing I would check is 
the speed of any opto stuff in the path from your encoder output back to 
LinuxCNC to the the encoder that shuld be labeled a decoder in the 
hardware at the computer end of the path. Get that old tech to look at 
the encoder inputs at the 5i25 or 7i76. I'd be willing to bet a small 
sum the good, square waves from your hardware are half amplitude saw 
teeth by the time they get to the mesa card(s)
>
> > I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo.
> > I thought I had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle
> > working correctly. I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am
> > controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the
> > analog out from the 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the
> > spindle speed. I have a 100 slot encoder with index (homemade) on
> > the spindle.

That would be 400 edges per turn. And since the motor doesn't seem to be 
affected, the feedback to the spindle's pid is also getting lost.
> >
> > The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an “at
> > speed indication” at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like is is
> > running at a steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates
> > wildly. I am suspicious of the spindle encoder. Before I was just
> > running it as a 100 count counter with index and it worked fine. I
> > can’t figure out in PNCConf how to set up a spindle counter with
> > index for the 7i76.
> >
> >> From: "John Dammeyer" 
> >>
> >> Hi Alan,
> >>
> >> This is what I found for a Cycletrol DC motor controller.
> >> http://www.grahammotorandcontrols.com/item_dc_motor_controller/176B
> >>6002/58
> >>
> >>
> >> There is no guarantee that a PWM output will emulate a
> >> potentiometer.  That's the first place to look First put the pot
> >> back and measure the voltage between the wiper and ground as you
> >> control the speed from 0 to full RPM open loop.  And depending on
> >> how it's powered be careful that the pot inputs aren't indirectly
> >> connected to ground.
> >>
> >> It's always possible the speed control won't work unless there is
> >> also 5K Ohm between pin 9 and 11.
> >>
> >> It's also possible the pot changes the resistance (as a rheostat)
> >> in a feedback circuit so input PWM may or may not work.
> >>
> >> Also PWM is exactly that pulse width.  Unless you have a filter
> >> capacitor across that with a bleeder resistor to ground (Pin 11)
> >> the internal circuit many not integrate the PWM enough for it to
> >> work.
> >>
> >> For example I bought a small Chinese PWM to 0-10V module that has
> >> the rule that the PWM frequency can't be higher than 1kHz.  Try it
> >> with 10kHz and it won't create a lower voltage.  So PWM frequency
> >> is a parameter that must be correct.
> >>
> >> I also, way back, bought a step/dir to 0-10V controller that
> >> produced 10V at 25kHz step rate.  The problem was my ELS was
> >> limited to 20kHz so I never could get 10V out of it.
> >>
> >> I don't believe your 100 PPR encoder is the issue.  I'm running my
> >> spindle with 60 PPR and can do power tapping on the mill.
> >>
> >> It may still be possible to find these UHU or HP_UHU kits
> >> somewhere.  I ended up using them because the GECKO servo drives I
> >> bought were only good to 80V and my servo motors like more than
> >> 90V.  The HP_UHU kit was good to over 200VDC.
> >> https://www.cnczone.com/forums/servo-motors-drives/342836-uhu-servo
> >>-controller-build.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Similarly there are still some STMBL kits out there.  These can
> >> actually take the smart serial input from the MESA boards or
> >> step/dir.  I'm not sure that 0-10V was very implemented.
> >> https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/stmbl_servo_motor_drive
> >>.html
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: "Peter C. Wallace" 
> >>
> >> I would first check the A/B phasing and symmetry by monitoring the
> >> A and B inputs with halscope when turning at a slow speed (say 100
> >> RPM or less) The pins to m

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-09-13 Thread John Dammeyer

Alan,
Can you run the motor open loop with a 0V-10V power supply?If you remove 
the CNC from the loop first then you can measure top speed with 90V and 10V 
input.

Next, put the CNC system back on it and use the scope to look at the PWM 
output.   If it's not a voltage level but still pulses add a 10uF 16V capacitor 
across it.  Then see if the voltage level changes from 0V to 10V.

Baby steps...
John



> -Original Message-
> From: Alan Condit [mailto:condit.a...@gmail.com]
> Sent: September-13-21 1:52 PM
> To: Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76
> 
> John, Peter and Gene,
> 
> I have the Cycletrol-150 Manual. It says that you can replace the 5k ohm 
> potentiometer with a 0-10v analog signal. The 7i76 manual
> says that you can use it to replace a 5k potentiometer control (0-10v). So 
> that should work and indeed seems to be working. I have
> tried adjusting the detectors to 90�. I have an old Tectronix scope and they 
> look pretty good there. It now has a solid �at speed
> indication� up to about 250rpm. So now I am suspecting that I don�t have the 
> PNCConf configuration quite correct for the spindle.
> At the top of the range the Speed Indicator fluctuates from about 400 to 600 
> rpm while the motor sounds like it is holding dead
> steady.
> One of my problems is that I don�t actually know what the rpm of the motor 
> should be at 90volts. It is a Pacific Scientific motor rated
> 1.5hp at 110v DC.
> 
> Thanks,
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> > I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I 
> > thought I had everything working but I still can�t get the
> spindle working correctly.
> > I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am controlling with a 
> > Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the analog out from the
> 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the spindle speed. I have a 100 
> slot encoder with index (homemade) on the spindle.
> >
> > The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an �at speed 
> > indication� at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like
> is is running at a steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates 
> wildly. I am suspicious of the spindle encoder. Before I was
> just running it as a 100 count counter with index and it worked fine. I can�t 
> figure out in PNCConf how to set up a spindle counter
> with index for the 7i76.
> >
> >> From: "John Dammeyer" 
> >>
> >> Hi Alan,
> >>
> >> This is what I found for a Cycletrol DC motor controller.
> >> http://www.grahammotorandcontrols.com/item_dc_motor_controller/176B6002/58
> >>
> >>
> >> There is no guarantee that a PWM output will emulate a potentiometer.  
> >> That's the first place to look
> >> First put the pot back and measure the voltage between the wiper and 
> >> ground as you control the speed from 0 to full RPM open
> loop.  And depending on how it's powered be careful that the pot inputs 
> aren't indirectly connected to ground.
> >>
> >> It's always possible the speed control won't work unless there is also 5K 
> >> Ohm between pin 9 and 11.
> >>
> >> It's also possible the pot changes the resistance (as a rheostat) in a 
> >> feedback circuit so input PWM may or may not work.
> >>
> >> Also PWM is exactly that pulse width.  Unless you have a filter capacitor 
> >> across that with a bleeder resistor to ground (Pin 11) the
> internal circuit many not integrate the PWM enough for it to work.
> >>
> >> For example I bought a small Chinese PWM to 0-10V module that has the rule 
> >> that the PWM frequency can't be higher than 1kHz.
> Try it with 10kHz and it won't create a lower voltage.  So PWM frequency is a 
> parameter that must be correct.
> >>
> >> I also, way back, bought a step/dir to 0-10V controller that produced 10V 
> >> at 25kHz step rate.  The problem was my ELS was
> limited to 20kHz so I never could get 10V out of it.
> >>
> >> I don't believe your 100 PPR encoder is the issue.  I'm running my spindle 
> >> with 60 PPR and can do power tapping on the mill.
> >>
> >> It may still be possible to find these UHU or HP_UHU kits somewhere.  I 
> >> ended up using them because the GECKO servo drives I
> bought were only good to 80V and my servo motors like more than 90V.  The 
> HP_UHU kit was good to over 200VDC.
> >> https://www.cnczone.com/forums/servo-motors-drives/342836-uhu-servo-controller-build.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Simila

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-09-13 Thread Alan Condit

John, Peter and Gene,

I have the Cycletrol-150 Manual. It says that you can replace the 5k ohm 
potentiometer with a 0-10v analog signal. The 7i76 manual says that you can use 
it to replace a 5k potentiometer control (0-10v). So that should work and 
indeed seems to be working. I have tried adjusting the detectors to 90°. I have 
an old Tectronix scope and they look pretty good there. It now has a solid “at 
speed indication” up to about 250rpm. So now I am suspecting that I don’t have 
the PNCConf configuration quite correct for the spindle. At the top of the 
range the Speed Indicator fluctuates from about 400 to 600 rpm while the motor 
sounds like it is holding dead steady.
One of my problems is that I don’t actually know what the rpm of the motor 
should be at 90volts. It is a Pacific Scientific motor rated 1.5hp at 110v DC.

Thanks,
Alan



> I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I thought 
> I had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle working correctly.
> I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am controlling with a 
> Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the analog out from the 7i76 to 
> replace the potentiometer to control the spindle speed. I have a 100 slot 
> encoder with index (homemade) on the spindle.
> 
> The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an “at speed 
> indication” at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like is is running at a 
> steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates wildly. I am 
> suspicious of the spindle encoder. Before I was just running it as a 100 
> count counter with index and it worked fine. I can’t figure out in PNCConf 
> how to set up a spindle counter with index for the 7i76.
> 
>> From: "John Dammeyer" 
>> 
>> Hi Alan,
>> 
>> This is what I found for a Cycletrol DC motor controller.
>> http://www.grahammotorandcontrols.com/item_dc_motor_controller/176B6002/58
>> 
>> 
>> There is no guarantee that a PWM output will emulate a potentiometer.  
>> That's the first place to look
>> First put the pot back and measure the voltage between the wiper and ground 
>> as you control the speed from 0 to full RPM open loop.  And depending on how 
>> it's powered be careful that the pot inputs aren't indirectly connected to 
>> ground.
>> 
>> It's always possible the speed control won't work unless there is also 5K 
>> Ohm between pin 9 and 11.
>> 
>> It's also possible the pot changes the resistance (as a rheostat) in a 
>> feedback circuit so input PWM may or may not work.  
>> 
>> Also PWM is exactly that pulse width.  Unless you have a filter capacitor 
>> across that with a bleeder resistor to ground (Pin 11) the internal circuit 
>> many not integrate the PWM enough for it to work.  
>> 
>> For example I bought a small Chinese PWM to 0-10V module that has the rule 
>> that the PWM frequency can't be higher than 1kHz.  Try it with 10kHz and it 
>> won't create a lower voltage.  So PWM frequency is a parameter that must be 
>> correct.
>> 
>> I also, way back, bought a step/dir to 0-10V controller that produced 10V at 
>> 25kHz step rate.  The problem was my ELS was limited to 20kHz so I never 
>> could get 10V out of it.
>> 
>> I don't believe your 100 PPR encoder is the issue.  I'm running my spindle 
>> with 60 PPR and can do power tapping on the mill.  
>> 
>> It may still be possible to find these UHU or HP_UHU kits somewhere.  I 
>> ended up using them because the GECKO servo drives I bought were only good 
>> to 80V and my servo motors like more than 90V.  The HP_UHU kit was good to 
>> over 200VDC.
>> https://www.cnczone.com/forums/servo-motors-drives/342836-uhu-servo-controller-build.html
>> 
>> 
>> Similarly there are still some STMBL kits out there.  These can actually 
>> take the smart serial input from the MESA boards or step/dir.  I'm not sure 
>> that 0-10V was very implemented.
>> https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/stmbl_servo_motor_drive.html
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: "Peter C. Wallace" 
>> 
>> I would first check the A/B phasing and symmetry by monitoring the A and B 
>> inputs with halscope when turning at a slow speed (say 100 RPM or less)
>> The pins to monitor would be:
>> 
>> hm2_5i25.0.encoder.00.input-a
>> hm2_5i25.0.encoder.00.input-b
>> 
>> Ideally both A and B should be square waves (50% duty cycle)
>> and have a 90 degree phase difference (A changes in the middle of B high and 
>> B low times and vice versa)
>> 
>> 
>> Peter Wallace
>> Mesa Electronics
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: Gene Heskett 
>> 
>> On Sunday 12 September 2021 17:49:43 Alan Condit wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> getting proper quadrature out of homemade stuff is a bear with 4 sore paws. 
>> I know, I done it about 3 times now. I would in your shoes do this which has 
>> worked really well here.
>> 
>> How many "gear shifts" do you have between the motor and the actual 
>> spindlle? You could probably do more than 2, but thats all the gears I have 
>> on my g0704. I have tally switches on that kno

Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-09-12 Thread Gene Heskett

On Sunday 12 September 2021 17:49:43 Alan Condit wrote:

> I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I
> thought I had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle
> working correctly. I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am
> controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the
> analog out from the 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the
> spindle speed. I have a 100 slot encoder with index (homemade) on the
> spindle.
>
> The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an “at
> speed indication” at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like is is
> running at a steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates
> wildly. I am suspicious of the spindle encoder. Before I was just
> running it as a 100 count counter with index and it worked fine. I
> can’t figure out in PNCConf how to set up a spindle counter with index
> for the 7i76.
>
> Questions:
> Is it likely that my encoder is the problem?
> I don’t know how to adjust the detectors to be out of cycle by 90°?
> Any helpful hints? Should I just go back to the 100 slot counter?
> Should I replace my whole homemade encoder with a real commercial
> spindle encoder?

getting proper quadrature out of homemade stuff is a bear with 4 sore 
paws. I know, I done it about 3 times now. I would in your shoes do this 
which has worked really well here.

How many "gear shifts" do you have between the motor and the actual 
spindlle? You could probably do more than 2, but thats all the gears I 
have on my g0704. I have tally switches on that knob that tell linuxcnc 
what, if any, gear it is in. I have a sibgle screw glued to the side of 
the drawbar cap that is read by an ATS-667 hall effect device for the 
once per turn "index signal" to an encoder. Prowl ebay and get a cheap 
1000 line encoder for a $20 bill, and spin it with the back of the 
spindle motor shaft. It will be way to fast to get thru the average 
BoB's opto stuff, so you'll have to use one of the encoders in the 5i25, 
which can do that fast a signal or hack the BoB to remove them.  Feed 
the same encoder you are feedingthe index into with the outputs of this 
encoder
.
Not knowing the gear ratio in either gear, I hacked up a counter in hal 
that starts counting pulses from an encoder on the back of the spindle 
motor, counting them for 100 turns of the spindle as seen by the 
ATS-667, and freezing the count so you can read it with a hal-meter. 
Divide that count by 100 and you have the "SCALE" value for that gear. 
Repeat for the other gear. then use the tally switches and a mux to feed 
the correct SCALE into that input to linuxcnc. For my g0704, that scale 
is a hair over 7,000 in high gear, and a different hair over 14,000 in 
low gear. And with that high a scale, quantization noise flat 
disappears, allowing very high pid Pgain values, 20 or more for 
extremely stiff spindle speed control. I use the PICO pwm-servo amp, and 
the only time I can tell the spindle is loaded really heavily is when 
the iron in the motor starts squeaking as that 9.7 amp motor is being 
throttled at around 18 amps by the pwm-servo.  Thats about 2 hp from a 1 
hp rated motor, but its had 6 years to complain and hasn't, not even 
asking for fresh brushes. 

When you are ready, let me know and I'll pm you my hal files and such so 
you can cherry pick and use what you want.

Take care now Alan.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-09-12 Thread Peter C. Wallace

On Sun, 12 Sep 2021, Alan Condit wrote:

Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 16:49:43 -0500
From: Alan Condit 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net" 
Subject: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I thought I 
had everything working but I still can??t get the spindle working correctly. I 
have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am controlling with a Cycletrol-150 DC 
controller. The am using the analog out from the 7i76 to replace the 
potentiometer to control the spindle speed. I have a 100 slot encoder with 
index (homemade) on the spindle.

The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an ??at speed 
indication?? at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like is is running at a 
steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates wildly. I am suspicious 
of the spindle encoder. Before I was just running it as a 100 count counter 
with index and it worked fine. I can??t figure out in PNCConf how to set up a

spindle counter with index for the 7i76.

Questions: 
Is it likely that my encoder is the problem? 
I don??t know how to adjust the detectors to be out of cycle by 90??? Any 
helpful hints? Should I just go back to the 100 slot counter?

Should I replace my whole homemade encoder with a real commercial
spindle encoder?

I would first check the A/B phasing and symmetry by monitoring the A and B 
inputs with halscope when turning at a slow speed (say 100 RPM or less)

The pins to monitor would be:

hm2_5i25.0.encoder.00.input-a
hm2_5i25.0.encoder.00.input-b

Ideally both A and B should be square waves (50% duty cycle)
and have a 90 degree phase difference (A changes in the middle of B high and B 
low times and vice versa)

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-09-12 Thread John Dammeyer

Hi Alan,
> From: Alan Condit [mailto:condit.a...@gmail.com]
> I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I thought 
> I had everything working but I still can�t get the spindle
> working correctly.
> I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am controlling with a 
> Cycletrol-150 DC controller. The am using the analog out from the
> 7i76 to replace the potentiometer to control the spindle speed. I have a 100 
> slot encoder with index (homemade) on the spindle.

This is what I found for a Cycletrol DC motor controller.
http://www.grahammotorandcontrols.com/item_dc_motor_controller/176B6002/58


There is no guarantee that a PWM output will emulate a potentiometer.  That's 
the first place to look
First put the pot back and measure the voltage between the wiper and ground as 
you control the speed from 0 to full RPM open loop.  And depending on how it's 
powered be careful that the pot inputs aren't indirectly connected to ground.

It's always possible the speed control won't work unless there is also 5K Ohm 
between pin 9 and 11.

It's also possible the pot changes the resistance (as a rheostat) in a feedback 
circuit so input PWM may or may not work.  

Also PWM is exactly that pulse width.  Unless you have a filter capacitor 
across that with a bleeder resistor to ground (Pin 11) the internal circuit 
many not integrate the PWM enough for it to work.  

For example I bought a small Chinese PWM to 0-10V module that has the rule that 
the PWM frequency can't be higher than 1kHz.  Try it with 10kHz and it won't 
create a lower voltage.  So PWM frequency is a parameter that must be correct.

I also, way back, bought a step/dir to 0-10V controller that produced 10V at 
25kHz step rate.  The problem was my ELS was limited to 20kHz so I never could 
get 10V out of it.

I don't believe your 100 PPR encoder is the issue.  I'm running my spindle with 
60 PPR and can do power tapping on the mill.  

It may still be possible to find these UHU or HP_UHU kits somewhere.  I ended 
up using them because the GECKO servo drives I bought were only good to 80V and 
my servo motors like more than 90V.  The HP_UHU kit was good to over 200VDC.
https://www.cnczone.com/forums/servo-motors-drives/342836-uhu-servo-controller-build.html


Similarly there are still some STMBL kits out there.  These can actually take 
the smart serial input from the MESA boards or step/dir.  I'm not sure that 
0-10V was very implemented.
https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/stmbl_servo_motor_drive.html

John


> 
> The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an �at speed 
> indication� at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like is
> is running at a steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates 
> wildly. I am suspicious of the spindle encoder. Before I was
> just running it as a 100 count counter with index and it worked fine. I can�t 
> figure out in PNCConf how to set up a spindle counter
> with index for the 7i76.
> 
> Questions:
> Is it likely that my encoder is the problem?
> I don�t know how to adjust the detectors to be out of cycle by 90�? Any 
> helpful hints?
> Should I just go back to the 100 slot counter?
> Should I replace my whole homemade encoder with a real commercial spindle 
> encoder?
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
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[Emc-users] Spindle setup for 5i25/7i76

2021-09-12 Thread Alan Condit


I built a new controller for my 9x20 lathe using a 5i25/7i76 combo. I thought I 
had everything working but I still can’t get the spindle working correctly.
I have a 1.5hp PMDC treadmill motor that I am controlling with a Cycletrol-150 
DC controller. The am using the analog out from the 7i76 to replace the 
potentiometer to control the spindle speed. I have a 100 slot encoder with 
index (homemade) on the spindle.

The spindle starts under LCNC control but I am not getting an “at speed 
indication” at above about 100rpm. The motor sounds like is is running at a 
steady speed but the Spindle Speed indicator fluctuates wildly. I am suspicious 
of the spindle encoder. Before I was just running it as a 100 count counter 
with index and it worked fine. I can’t figure out in PNCConf how to set up a 
spindle counter with index for the 7i76.

Questions: 
Is it likely that my encoder is the problem? 
I don’t know how to adjust the detectors to be out of cycle by 90°? Any helpful 
hints?
Should I just go back to the 100 slot counter?
Should I replace my whole homemade encoder with a real commercial spindle 
encoder?

Sent from my iPad

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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

Found it!   wrong value resistor.

I read the multimeter wrong lol

Thanks for the patience Peter!

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 5:01 PM andrew beck  wrote:

> Just checked that.  State 1=5v state 2 =0v
>
> What else should I check?
>
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 4:54 PM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:
>>
>> > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 16:49:05 +1200
>> > From: andrew beck 
>> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>> > 
>> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <
>> emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card
>> looking for
>> > configs to study
>> >
>> > also just confirming that the
>> >
>> > hm2_7i92.0.encoder.03.input-index doesn't change state.
>> >
>> > I can see a few options to change.
>> >
>> > should I change to the IDX/ input?
>> >
>> > or should I change the value of resistor?
>>
>>
>> You should measure the voltage at the prox output/index input
>> in both states. It should be lower than .7V in one state and
>> higher than 3V in the other.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > regards
>> >
>> > Andrew
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 4:46 PM andrew beck 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> just confirming that I hava a 265ohm resistor between ground and the
>> >> encoder index input
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 4:39 PM Peter C. Wallace 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 16:21:05 +1200
>> >>>> From: andrew beck 
>> >>>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>> >>>> 
>> >>>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <
>> >>> emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card
>> >>> looking for
>> >>>> configs to study
>> >>>>
>> >>>> hey Peter
>> >>>>
>> >>>> using a 7i77 mesa card
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I just tried my PNP sensor now i have wired up the ground and 5v
>> >>> correctly
>> >>>> and have the signal wire into the pin 7  which is the index
>> channel.  I
>> >>>> have also changed the jumper for the index channel to single ended
>> >>>> operation.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> it doesn't work...  what am I doing wrong?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> also I am testing by using the command setp hm2 7i92
>> >>>> encoder.03.index.enable 1  (etc  command probably is wrong here as I
>> am
>> >>>> working from memory but it changes the pin color in hal configurator)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I can see the proxy is switching as the led turns off and on at the
>> back
>> >>> of
>> >>>> the thing
>> >>>>
>> >>>> for reference here is the link to the proxy I am using
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32867535621.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.3a3b4c4d5BJjid
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 7:37 AM Peter C. Wallace 
>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I would check the prox voltage ouput voltage in both states
>> >>>
>> >>> You can check the index state directly in hal by monitoring
>> >>> hm2_7i92.0.encoder.0N.input-index (N is the  encoder channel
>> >>> you are testing) I think this is inverted from the pin state.
>> >>>
>> >>> Note that if you do not have the stiff (270 Ohm or so) pull down
>> >>> resistor, the prox output will always be high (around 5V)
>> >>>
>> >>> Peter Wallace
>> >>> Mesa Electronics
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ___
>> >>> Emc-users mailing list
>> >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Emc-users mailing list
>> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> >
>>
>> Peter Wallace
>> Mesa Electronics
>>
>> (\__/)
>> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
>> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

Just checked that.  State 1=5v state 2 =0v

What else should I check?

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 4:54 PM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:
>
> > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 16:49:05 +1200
> > From: andrew beck 
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > 
> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"  >
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card
> looking for
> > configs to study
> >
> > also just confirming that the
> >
> > hm2_7i92.0.encoder.03.input-index doesn't change state.
> >
> > I can see a few options to change.
> >
> > should I change to the IDX/ input?
> >
> > or should I change the value of resistor?
>
>
> You should measure the voltage at the prox output/index input
> in both states. It should be lower than .7V in one state and
> higher than 3V in the other.
>
>
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 4:46 PM andrew beck 
> wrote:
> >
> >> just confirming that I hava a 265ohm resistor between ground and the
> >> encoder index input
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 4:39 PM Peter C. Wallace 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 16:21:05 +1200
> >>>> From: andrew beck 
> >>>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >>>> 
> >>>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <
> >>> emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card
> >>> looking for
> >>>> configs to study
> >>>>
> >>>> hey Peter
> >>>>
> >>>> using a 7i77 mesa card
> >>>>
> >>>> I just tried my PNP sensor now i have wired up the ground and 5v
> >>> correctly
> >>>> and have the signal wire into the pin 7  which is the index channel.
> I
> >>>> have also changed the jumper for the index channel to single ended
> >>>> operation.
> >>>>
> >>>> it doesn't work...  what am I doing wrong?
> >>>>
> >>>> also I am testing by using the command setp hm2 7i92
> >>>> encoder.03.index.enable 1  (etc  command probably is wrong here as I
> am
> >>>> working from memory but it changes the pin color in hal configurator)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I can see the proxy is switching as the led turns off and on at the
> back
> >>> of
> >>>> the thing
> >>>>
> >>>> for reference here is the link to the proxy I am using
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32867535621.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.3a3b4c4d5BJjid
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 7:37 AM Peter C. Wallace 
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I would check the prox voltage ouput voltage in both states
> >>>
> >>> You can check the index state directly in hal by monitoring
> >>> hm2_7i92.0.encoder.0N.input-index (N is the  encoder channel
> >>> you are testing) I think this is inverted from the pin state.
> >>>
> >>> Note that if you do not have the stiff (270 Ohm or so) pull down
> >>> resistor, the prox output will always be high (around 5V)
> >>>
> >>> Peter Wallace
> >>> Mesa Electronics
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Emc-users mailing list
> >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>>
> >>
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
> (\__/)
> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
>
>
>
> ___
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>

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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

2021-07-08 Thread Peter C. Wallace

On Fri, 9 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 16:49:05 +1200
From: andrew beck 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for
configs to study

also just confirming that the

hm2_7i92.0.encoder.03.input-index doesn't change state.

I can see a few options to change.

should I change to the IDX/ input?

or should I change the value of resistor?

You should measure the voltage at the prox output/index input
in both states. It should be lower than .7V in one state and
higher than 3V in the other.

regards

Andrew

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 4:46 PM andrew beck  wrote:

just confirming that I hava a 265ohm resistor between ground and the
encoder index input

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 4:39 PM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

On Fri, 9 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 16:21:05 +1200
From: andrew beck 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <

emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>

Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card

looking for

configs to study

hey Peter

using a 7i77 mesa card

I just tried my PNP sensor now i have wired up the ground and 5v

correctly

and have the signal wire into the pin 7  which is the index channel.  I
have also changed the jumper for the index channel to single ended
operation.

it doesn't work...  what am I doing wrong?

also I am testing by using the command setp hm2 7i92
encoder.03.index.enable 1  (etc  command probably is wrong here as I am
working from memory but it changes the pin color in hal configurator)

I can see the proxy is switching as the led turns off and on at the back

of

the thing

for reference here is the link to the proxy I am using

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32867535621.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.3a3b4c4d5BJjid

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 7:37 AM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

I would check the prox voltage ouput voltage in both states

You can check the index state directly in hal by monitoring
hm2_7i92.0.encoder.0N.input-index (N is the  encoder channel
you are testing) I think this is inverted from the pin state.

Note that if you do not have the stiff (270 Ohm or so) pull down
resistor, the prox output will always be high (around 5V)

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

also just confirming that the

hm2_7i92.0.encoder.03.input-index doesn't change state.

I can see a few options to change.

should I change to the IDX/ input?

or should I change the value of resistor?

regards

Andrew

On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 4:46 PM andrew beck  wrote:

> just confirming that I hava a 265ohm resistor between ground and the
> encoder index input
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 4:39 PM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:
>>
>> > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 16:21:05 +1200
>> > From: andrew beck 
>> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>> > 
>> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <
>> emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card
>> looking for
>> > configs to study
>> >
>> > hey Peter
>> >
>> >using a 7i77 mesa card
>> >
>> >I just tried my PNP sensor now i have wired up the ground and 5v
>> correctly
>> >and have the signal wire into the pin 7  which is the index channel.  I
>> >have also changed the jumper for the index channel to single ended
>> >operation.
>> >
>> >it doesn't work...  what am I doing wrong?
>> >
>> >also I am testing by using the command setp hm2 7i92
>> >encoder.03.index.enable 1  (etc  command probably is wrong here as I am
>> >working from memory but it changes the pin color in hal configurator)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >I can see the proxy is switching as the led turns off and on at the back
>> of
>> >the thing
>> >
>> >for reference here is the link to the proxy I am using
>> >
>> >
>> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32867535621.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.3a3b4c4d5BJjid
>> >
>> >On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 7:37 AM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
>> >
>>
>> I would check the prox voltage ouput voltage in both states
>>
>> You can check the index state directly in hal by monitoring
>> hm2_7i92.0.encoder.0N.input-index (N is the  encoder channel
>> you are testing) I think this is inverted from the pin state.
>>
>> Note that if you do not have the stiff (270 Ohm or so) pull down
>> resistor, the prox output will always be high (around 5V)
>>
>> Peter Wallace
>> Mesa Electronics
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

just confirming that I hava a 265ohm resistor between ground and the
encoder index input


On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 4:39 PM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:
>
> > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 16:21:05 +1200
> > From: andrew beck 
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > 
> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"  >
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card
> looking for
> > configs to study
> >
> > hey Peter
> >
> >using a 7i77 mesa card
> >
> >I just tried my PNP sensor now i have wired up the ground and 5v correctly
> >and have the signal wire into the pin 7  which is the index channel.  I
> >have also changed the jumper for the index channel to single ended
> >operation.
> >
> >it doesn't work...  what am I doing wrong?
> >
> >also I am testing by using the command setp hm2 7i92
> >encoder.03.index.enable 1  (etc  command probably is wrong here as I am
> >working from memory but it changes the pin color in hal configurator)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >I can see the proxy is switching as the led turns off and on at the back
> of
> >the thing
> >
> >for reference here is the link to the proxy I am using
> >
> >
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32867535621.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.3a3b4c4d5BJjid
> >
> >On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 7:37 AM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
> >
>
> I would check the prox voltage ouput voltage in both states
>
> You can check the index state directly in hal by monitoring
> hm2_7i92.0.encoder.0N.input-index (N is the  encoder channel
> you are testing) I think this is inverted from the pin state.
>
> Note that if you do not have the stiff (270 Ohm or so) pull down
> resistor, the prox output will always be high (around 5V)
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

2021-07-08 Thread Peter C. Wallace

On Fri, 9 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 16:21:05 +1200
From: andrew beck 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for
configs to study

hey Peter

using a 7i77 mesa card

I just tried my PNP sensor now i have wired up the ground and 5v correctly
and have the signal wire into the pin 7  which is the index channel.  I
have also changed the jumper for the index channel to single ended
operation.

it doesn't work...  what am I doing wrong?

also I am testing by using the command setp hm2 7i92
encoder.03.index.enable 1  (etc  command probably is wrong here as I am
working from memory but it changes the pin color in hal configurator)

I can see the proxy is switching as the led turns off and on at the back of
the thing

for reference here is the link to the proxy I am using

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32867535621.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.3a3b4c4d5BJjid

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 7:37 AM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

I would check the prox voltage ouput voltage in both states

You can check the index state directly in hal by monitoring
hm2_7i92.0.encoder.0N.input-index (N is the  encoder channel
you are testing) I think this is inverted from the pin state.

Note that if you do not have the stiff (270 Ohm or so) pull down
resistor, the prox output will always be high (around 5V)

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

hey Peter

using a 7i77 mesa card

I just tried my PNP sensor now i have wired up the ground and 5v correctly
and have the signal wire into the pin 7  which is the index channel.  I
have also changed the jumper for the index channel to single ended
operation.

it doesn't work...  what am I doing wrong?

also I am testing by using the command setp hm2 7i92
encoder.03.index.enable 1  (etc  command probably is wrong here as I am
working from memory but it changes the pin color in hal configurator)


I can see the proxy is switching as the led turns off and on at the back of
the thing

for reference here is the link to the proxy I am using

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32867535621.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.3a3b4c4d5BJjid

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 7:37 AM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, andy pugh wrote:
>
> > Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 15:25:37 +0100
> > From: andy pugh 
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > 
> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"  >
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card
> looking for
> > configs to study
> >
> > On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 at 15:20, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
>
> > Also some NPN prox's have built in pullups so may source 24V to the
> > output when off.
>
> >Would a 5.2V zener at the terminal block be a sensible precaution?
>
> Yes, a Zener woud protect the encoder input
>
> (actually the 7I77 encoder input chip is OK to 25V,
> but the 2K pullup resistor would be damaged)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> яя George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
> (\__/)
> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, andy pugh wrote:

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 15:25:37 +0100
From: andy pugh 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for
configs to study

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 at 15:20, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

Also some NPN prox's have built in pullups so may source 24V to the
output when off.

Would a 5.2V zener at the terminal block be a sensible precaution?

Yes, a Zener woud protect the encoder input

(actually the 7I77 encoder input chip is OK to 25V,
but the 2K pullup resistor would be damaged)

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
?? George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 at 15:20, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

> Also some NPN prox's have built in pullups so may source 24V to the
> output when off.

Would a 5.2V zener at the terminal block be a sensible precaution?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

On Thu, 8 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 01:47:18 +1200
From: andrew beck 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for
configs to study

Hey I do have npn proxy switches.  They run on 6v how do I power Them
though?

Can I use 24v field io?

You can, but you have to make sure that the prox ground lead does not become 
disconnected or you will feed 24V to the input.

Also some NPN prox's have built in pullups so may source 24V to the 
output when off. You can check this by measuring the prox output when powered by 
24V (make sure to check both states)

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021, 1:40 AM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

On Thu, 8 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 01:34:02 +1200
From: andrew beck 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
looking for

configs to study

Also when you say Pull down resistor can I just solder that between the

pnp

prox output wire and the encoder input?

This would be a resistor between the prox output and ground

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021, 1:27 AM andrew beck 

wrote:

Looks like I bought the wrong type of switch then lol.

Do you think I'll lose accuracy with a resistor?

Remember this is my index pulse for spindle..

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021, 1:15 AM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 20:47:35 +1200
From: andrew beck 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <

emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>

Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card

looking for

configs to study

peter you found it lol!

I have the spindle turned on by a standard output from the 7i77 card

anyway

so didn't check that the spindle enable signal was turning on the
hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.spinena pin

i just went through it again and double checked stuff and netted the
spinena pin also and it works.  I didn't realise that the analog out

value

only works if the spinena is on.  but I know now

so next issue is I have a 5v pnp prox that I want to put on the

spindle

for

a index sensor as my motor/gearbox ratio is not 1-1.

PCW can I use a 5v pnp sensor straight into the 7i77 encoder input

same

as

I would do with the field io?

The encoder inputs have a 2K pullup resistor to 5V so you would need a
relatively stiff pull down resistor on the output of the PNP sensor for
that to
work (say 270 ohm)

ps john.  I will add post up my config once I have it working real

nice

for

everyone to copy.  anyone that has a 7i77 card should be able to just

plug

in and get spindle orientation so long as they have a suitable vfd

regards

Andrew

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On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 3:38 AM Peter C. Wallace 

wrote:

On Tue, 6 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 18:35:26 +1200
From: andrew beck 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <

emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net

Subject: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card

looking

for

configs to study

hey everyone.

i have been messing around all day with my cnc mill trying to get

spindle

orientation working so that I can get my toolchanger working

I found a video on youtube from Tallas83 that showed what  I want to

do

but

he used a 5i20 card and 7i33 and I am having trouble converting it

to

a

standard 7i77 mesa card set up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoXoOYSFY2Q

I got it to load the new config eventually had to change all the

motion

pins to spindle.0 stuff but still getting a bit stuck when I issue a

m19

r0

command the spindle locks but doesn't rotate.  and I can see on my

vfd

that

the frequency reference is not getting through even though in the

hal

configuration the hm2 analog 05 output is showing a value.  If I

switch

back to my old config it fires right up so hardware is fine.

Is hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.spinena true?
(analog out 5 has a separate enable)

does anyone out there have this working that can help.  I don't need

too

much hand holding I think and I have played with linuxcnc for

several

years

now.  just getting stuck up against a wall.

regards

Andrew

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Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 at 14:50, andrew beck  wrote:
>
> Hey I do have npn proxy switches.  They run on 6v how do I power Them
> though?

Definitely wait for the go-ahead from PCW on this one, but I think
that it is safe to wire pulled-up 5V inputs to the output of an NPN
prox that is powered from 24V field power.

You can check using a 5V supply and a 2k pull-up (model of the encoder
input) and the prox, to be sure that the output stays below the safe
encoder input voltage.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

Hey I do have npn proxy switches.  They run on 6v how do I power Them
though?

Can I use 24v field io?

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021, 1:40 AM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:
>
> > Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 01:34:02 +1200
> > From: andrew beck 
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > 
> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"  >
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card
> looking for
> > configs to study
> >
> > Also when you say Pull down resistor can I just solder that between the
> pnp
> > prox output wire and the encoder input?
>
>
> This would be a resistor between the prox output and ground
>
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 8, 2021, 1:27 AM andrew beck 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Looks like I bought the wrong type of switch then lol.
> >>
> >> Do you think I'll lose accuracy with a resistor?
> >>
> >>
> >> Remember this is my index pulse for spindle..
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 8, 2021, 1:15 AM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 20:47:35 +1200
> >>>> From: andrew beck 
> >>>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >>>> 
> >>>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <
> >>> emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card
> >>> looking for
> >>>> configs to study
> >>>>
> >>>> peter you found it lol!
> >>>>
> >>>> I have the spindle turned on by a standard output from the 7i77 card
> >>> anyway
> >>>> so didn't check that the spindle enable signal was turning on the
> >>>> hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.spinena pin
> >>>>
> >>>> i just went through it again and double checked stuff and netted the
> >>>> spinena pin also and it works.  I didn't realise that the analog out
> >>> value
> >>>> only works if the spinena is on.  but I know now
> >>>>
> >>>> so next issue is I have a 5v pnp prox that I want to put on the
> spindle
> >>> for
> >>>> a index sensor as my motor/gearbox ratio is not 1-1.
> >>>>
> >>>> PCW can I use a 5v pnp sensor straight into the 7i77 encoder input
> same
> >>> as
> >>>> I would do with the field io?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> The encoder inputs have a 2K pullup resistor to 5V so you would need a
> >>> relatively stiff pull down resistor on the output of the PNP sensor for
> >>> that to
> >>> work (say 270 ohm)
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ps john.  I will add post up my config once I have it working real
> nice
> >>> for
> >>>> everyone to copy.  anyone that has a 7i77 card should be able to just
> >>> plug
> >>>> in and get spindle orientation so long as they have a suitable vfd
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> regards
> >>>>
> >>>> Andrew
> >>>>
> >>>> <
> >>>
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> >>>>
> >>>> Virus-free.
> >>>> www.avast.com
> >>>> <
> >>>
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> >>>>
> >>>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 3:38 AM Peter C. Wallace 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, 6 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 18:35:26 +1200
> >>>>>> From: andrew beck 
> >>>>>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <
> >>> emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Subject: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card
> looking
> >>> for
> >>>>>>

Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

On Thu, 8 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 01:34:02 +1200
From: andrew beck 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for
configs to study

Also when you say Pull down resistor can I just solder that between the pnp
prox output wire and the encoder input?

This would be a resistor between the prox output and ground

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021, 1:27 AM andrew beck  wrote:

Looks like I bought the wrong type of switch then lol.

Do you think I'll lose accuracy with a resistor?

Remember this is my index pulse for spindle..

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021, 1:15 AM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 20:47:35 +1200
From: andrew beck 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <

emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>

Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card

looking for

configs to study

peter you found it lol!

I have the spindle turned on by a standard output from the 7i77 card

anyway

so didn't check that the spindle enable signal was turning on the
hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.spinena pin

i just went through it again and double checked stuff and netted the
spinena pin also and it works.  I didn't realise that the analog out

value

only works if the spinena is on.  but I know now

so next issue is I have a 5v pnp prox that I want to put on the spindle

for

a index sensor as my motor/gearbox ratio is not 1-1.

PCW can I use a 5v pnp sensor straight into the 7i77 encoder input same

as

I would do with the field io?

The encoder inputs have a 2K pullup resistor to 5V so you would need a
relatively stiff pull down resistor on the output of the PNP sensor for
that to
work (say 270 ohm)

ps john.  I will add post up my config once I have it working real nice

for

everyone to copy.  anyone that has a 7i77 card should be able to just

plug

in and get spindle orientation so long as they have a suitable vfd

regards

Andrew

<

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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 3:38 AM Peter C. Wallace 

wrote:

On Tue, 6 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 18:35:26 +1200
From: andrew beck 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <

emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net

Subject: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking

for

configs to study

hey everyone.

i have been messing around all day with my cnc mill trying to get

spindle

orientation working so that I can get my toolchanger working

I found a video on youtube from Tallas83 that showed what  I want to

do

but

he used a 5i20 card and 7i33 and I am having trouble converting it to

a

standard 7i77 mesa card set up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoXoOYSFY2Q

I got it to load the new config eventually had to change all the

motion

pins to spindle.0 stuff but still getting a bit stuck when I issue a

m19

r0

command the spindle locks but doesn't rotate.  and I can see on my vfd

that

the frequency reference is not getting through even though in the hal
configuration the hm2 analog 05 output is showing a value.  If I

switch

back to my old config it fires right up so hardware is fine.

Is hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.spinena true?
(analog out 5 has a separate enable)

does anyone out there have this working that can help.  I don't need

too

much hand holding I think and I have played with linuxcnc for several

years

now.  just getting stuck up against a wall.

regards

Andrew

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Mesa Electronics

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(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 at 14:36, andrew beck  wrote:
>
> Also when you say Pull down resistor can I just solder that between the pnp
> prox output wire and the encoder input?

Is an NPN an option? (wouldn't need to be specifically a low voltage
one, I don't think)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 at 14:15, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

> The encoder inputs have a 2K pullup resistor to 5V

At the point where I said "I am not PCW" that should be interpreted to
mean "ignore everything that I am about to say" :-)

I wasn't aware that the encoder pins were different, other than the
voltage range.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

Also when you say Pull down resistor can I just solder that between the pnp
prox output wire and the encoder input?

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021, 1:27 AM andrew beck  wrote:

> Looks like I bought the wrong type of switch then lol.
>
> Do you think I'll lose accuracy with a resistor?
>
>
> Remember this is my index pulse for spindle..
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 8, 2021, 1:15 AM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:
>>
>> > Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 20:47:35 +1200
>> > From: andrew beck 
>> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>> > 
>> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <
>> emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card
>> looking for
>> > configs to study
>> >
>> > peter you found it lol!
>> >
>> > I have the spindle turned on by a standard output from the 7i77 card
>> anyway
>> > so didn't check that the spindle enable signal was turning on the
>> > hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.spinena pin
>> >
>> > i just went through it again and double checked stuff and netted the
>> > spinena pin also and it works.  I didn't realise that the analog out
>> value
>> > only works if the spinena is on.  but I know now
>> >
>> > so next issue is I have a 5v pnp prox that I want to put on the spindle
>> for
>> > a index sensor as my motor/gearbox ratio is not 1-1.
>> >
>> > PCW can I use a 5v pnp sensor straight into the 7i77 encoder input same
>> as
>> > I would do with the field io?
>> >
>>
>> The encoder inputs have a 2K pullup resistor to 5V so you would need a
>> relatively stiff pull down resistor on the output of the PNP sensor for
>> that to
>> work (say 270 ohm)
>>
>> >
>> > ps john.  I will add post up my config once I have it working real nice
>> for
>> > everyone to copy.  anyone that has a 7i77 card should be able to just
>> plug
>> > in and get spindle orientation so long as they have a suitable vfd
>> >
>> >
>> > regards
>> >
>> > Andrew
>> >
>> > <
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
>> >
>> > Virus-free.
>> > www.avast.com
>> > <
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
>> >
>> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 3:38 AM Peter C. Wallace 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Tue, 6 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 18:35:26 +1200
>> >>> From: andrew beck 
>> >>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>> >>> 
>> >>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <
>> emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >>>
>> >>> Subject: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking
>> for
>> >>> configs to study
>> >>>
>> >>> hey everyone.
>> >>>
>> >>> i have been messing around all day with my cnc mill trying to get
>> spindle
>> >>> orientation working so that I can get my toolchanger working
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I found a video on youtube from Tallas83 that showed what  I want to
>> do
>> >> but
>> >>> he used a 5i20 card and 7i33 and I am having trouble converting it to
>> a
>> >>> standard 7i77 mesa card set up.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoXoOYSFY2Q
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I got it to load the new config eventually had to change all the
>> motion
>> >>> pins to spindle.0 stuff but still getting a bit stuck when I issue a
>> m19
>> >> r0
>> >>> command the spindle locks but doesn't rotate.  and I can see on my vfd
>> >> that
>> >>> the frequency reference is not getting through even though in the hal
>> >>> configuration the hm2 analog 05 output is showing a value.  If I
>> switch
>> >>> back to my old config it fires right up so hard

Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

Looks like I bought the wrong type of switch then lol.

Do you think I'll lose accuracy with a resistor?


Remember this is my index pulse for spindle..



On Thu, Jul 8, 2021, 1:15 AM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:
>
> > Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 20:47:35 +1200
> > From: andrew beck 
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > 
> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"  >
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card
> looking for
> > configs to study
> >
> > peter you found it lol!
> >
> > I have the spindle turned on by a standard output from the 7i77 card
> anyway
> > so didn't check that the spindle enable signal was turning on the
> > hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.spinena pin
> >
> > i just went through it again and double checked stuff and netted the
> > spinena pin also and it works.  I didn't realise that the analog out
> value
> > only works if the spinena is on.  but I know now
> >
> > so next issue is I have a 5v pnp prox that I want to put on the spindle
> for
> > a index sensor as my motor/gearbox ratio is not 1-1.
> >
> > PCW can I use a 5v pnp sensor straight into the 7i77 encoder input same
> as
> > I would do with the field io?
> >
>
> The encoder inputs have a 2K pullup resistor to 5V so you would need a
> relatively stiff pull down resistor on the output of the PNP sensor for
> that to
> work (say 270 ohm)
>
> >
> > ps john.  I will add post up my config once I have it working real nice
> for
> > everyone to copy.  anyone that has a 7i77 card should be able to just
> plug
> > in and get spindle orientation so long as they have a suitable vfd
> >
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > <
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> >
> > Virus-free.
> > www.avast.com
> > <
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> >
> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 3:38 AM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 6 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:
> >>
> >>> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 18:35:26 +1200
> >>> From: andrew beck 
> >>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >>> 
> >>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <
> emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>>
> >>> Subject: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking
> for
> >>> configs to study
> >>>
> >>> hey everyone.
> >>>
> >>> i have been messing around all day with my cnc mill trying to get
> spindle
> >>> orientation working so that I can get my toolchanger working
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I found a video on youtube from Tallas83 that showed what  I want to do
> >> but
> >>> he used a 5i20 card and 7i33 and I am having trouble converting it to a
> >>> standard 7i77 mesa card set up.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoXoOYSFY2Q
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I got it to load the new config eventually had to change all the motion
> >>> pins to spindle.0 stuff but still getting a bit stuck when I issue a
> m19
> >> r0
> >>> command the spindle locks but doesn't rotate.  and I can see on my vfd
> >> that
> >>> the frequency reference is not getting through even though in the hal
> >>> configuration the hm2 analog 05 output is showing a value.  If I switch
> >>> back to my old config it fires right up so hardware is fine.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Is hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.spinena true?
> >> (analog out 5 has a separate enable)
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> does anyone out there have this working that can help.  I don't need
> too
> >>> much hand holding I think and I have played with linuxcnc for several
> >> years
> >>> now.  just getting stuck up against a wall.
> >>>
> >>> regards
> >>>
> >>> Andrew
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Emc-users mailing list
> >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>>
> >>
> >> Peter Wallace
> >> Mesa Electronics
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
> (\__/)
> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 20:47:35 +1200
From: andrew beck 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for
configs to study

peter you found it lol!

I have the spindle turned on by a standard output from the 7i77 card anyway
so didn't check that the spindle enable signal was turning on the
hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.spinena pin

i just went through it again and double checked stuff and netted the
spinena pin also and it works.  I didn't realise that the analog out value
only works if the spinena is on.  but I know now

so next issue is I have a 5v pnp prox that I want to put on the spindle for
a index sensor as my motor/gearbox ratio is not 1-1.

PCW can I use a 5v pnp sensor straight into the 7i77 encoder input same as
I would do with the field io?

The encoder inputs have a 2K pullup resistor to 5V so you would need a 
relatively stiff pull down resistor on the output of the PNP sensor for that to 
work (say 270 ohm)

ps john.  I will add post up my config once I have it working real nice for
everyone to copy.  anyone that has a 7i77 card should be able to just plug
in and get spindle orientation so long as they have a suitable vfd

regards

Andrew

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On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 3:38 AM Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

On Tue, 6 Jul 2021, andrew beck wrote:

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 18:35:26 +1200
From: andrew beck 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
but

he used a 5i20 card and 7i33 and I am having trouble converting it to a
standard 7i77 mesa card set up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoXoOYSFY2Q

I got it to load the new config eventually had to change all the motion
pins to spindle.0 stuff but still getting a bit stuck when I issue a m19

r0

command the spindle locks but doesn't rotate.  and I can see on my vfd

that

the frequency reference is not getting through even though in the hal
configuration the hm2 analog 05 output is showing a value.  If I switch
back to my old config it fires right up so hardware is fine.

Is hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.spinena true?
(analog out 5 has a separate enable)

does anyone out there have this working that can help.  I don't need too
much hand holding I think and I have played with linuxcnc for several

years

now.  just getting stuck up against a wall.

regards

Andrew

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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

Awesome I'll power up tomorrow and try it out

On Wed, Jul 7, 2021, 10:22 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 at 10:58, andrew beck  wrote:
>
> > Yep it's definitely 5v pnp  I got them special from the manufacturer.
> > So can I just power it from 5v and 0v. And then the sensor output goes
> into
> > the 7i77 spindle z index input?
>
> Yes, that should work fine.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 at 10:58, andrew beck  wrote:

> Yep it's definitely 5v pnp  I got them special from the manufacturer.
> So can I just power it from 5v and 0v. And then the sensor output goes into
> the 7i77 spindle z index input?

Yes, that should work fine.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

Thanks Andy!

Yep it's definitely 5v pnp  I got them special from the manufacturer.
So can I just power it from 5v and 0v. And then the sensor output goes into
the 7i77 spindle z index input?

(Jumpered for single ended inputs of course)






On Wed, Jul 7, 2021, 9:51 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 at 09:51, andrew beck  wrote:
>
> > PCW can I use a 5v pnp sensor straight into the 7i77 encoder input same
> as
> > I would do with the field io?
>
> I am not PCW, but I think that should be fine, as long as it is
> definitely 5V. Most prox sensors don't even work until they have 7V on
> the supply side.
> PNP Proxes take the output wire up to the supply voltage, so you will
> need to be careful.
>
> (Which is why NPN can be better, but not with a 7i77 as that has
> sinking inputs. For  a parallel port you can use a 24V NPN prox
> straight into a parport pin. Though it takes a measure of
> self-belief...)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 at 09:51, andrew beck  wrote:

> PCW can I use a 5v pnp sensor straight into the 7i77 encoder input same as
> I would do with the field io?

I am not PCW, but I think that should be fine, as long as it is
definitely 5V. Most prox sensors don't even work until they have 7V on
the supply side.
PNP Proxes take the output wire up to the supply voltage, so you will
need to be careful.

(Which is why NPN can be better, but not with a 7i77 as that has
sinking inputs. For  a parallel port you can use a 24V NPN prox
straight into a parport pin. Though it takes a measure of
self-belief...)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] spindle orientation help for a 7i77 card looking for configs to study