Re: [Finale] compatibility with OS Catalina

[Robert Patterson]

Before rushing to upgrade to Catalina, remember that any new Finale version
may introduce new features that make them unsuitable for your needs. For
example, recall that after the introduction of Finale 25 we had to wait for
third party plugins to be compatible with it. If you depend on third party
plugins, I would be cautious about upgrading OS until I knew for certain
how well they would work, especially if (as in this case) the new OS
requires upgrading to a new version of Finale.

On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 6:30 PM Chuck Israels  wrote:

> Thank you both, Robert and Gerald. These are probably not issues for me
> either.
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> > On Oct 25, 2019, at 4:10 PM, GERALD BERG  wrote:
> >
> > Ahh Thank's for that Robert! Faults seem to be non issues for me. I've
> been on it and so far no terrors.
> > best GJB
> >
> >On Friday, October 25, 2019, 03:38:57 PM EDT, Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
> >
> > FWIW: Makemusic has put up more detailed information about Catalina
> > compatibility.
> >
> >
> https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360036288573-Finale-Notation-Products-and-macOS-10-15-Catalina?utm_source=Iterable_medium=email_campaign=catalina_finale_v26_postrelease
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 2:33 PM g5gb sge5  wrote:
> >
> >> I think caution is a good policy on Catalina as it has gained a
> reputation
> >> for breaking things. Hopefully Apple with get the bugs worked out.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 9:52 AM Chuck Israels 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks, Gerald.
> >>>
> >>> Good to know. I’m still cautious.
> >>>
> >>> Chuck
> >>>
> >>>> On Oct 15, 2019, at 6:35 AM, GERALD BERG  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Oops! I had to upgrade for other reasons. Not used it intensively as
> >>> yet, but so far so good.
> >>>> GJB
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tuesday, October 8, 2019, 02:36:56 PM EDT, Chuck Israels <
> >>> cisra...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks, Jon and Robert.
> >>>>
> >>>> I’m usually an early upgrader. Caution rules this time.
> >>>>
> >>>> Chuck
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Oct 8, 2019, at 11:07 AM, Jon Delfin  wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Finale hasn't yet announced a go-ahead on Catalina. This is the most
> >>> recent
> >>>>> notice on their website:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>
> https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360036288573-Finale-Notation-Products-and-macOS-10-15-Catalina
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So proceed at your own risk.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 1:48 PM Chuck Israels 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Has anyone upgraded to OS Catalina? Is Finale compatible?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Chuck
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Chuck Israels
> >>>>>> cisra...@comcast.net
> >>>>>> (360) 201-3434
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 6935 SW 45th Ave.
> >>>>>> Portland OR 97219
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ___
> >>>>>> Finale mailing list
> >>>>>> Finale@shsu.edu
> >>>>>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >>>>>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> ___
> >>>>> Finale mailing list
> >>>>> Finale@shsu.edu
> >>>>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >>>>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >>>>
> >>>> Chuck Israels
> >>>> cisra...@comcast.net
> >>>> (360) 201-3434
> >>>>
> >>>> 6935 SW 45th Ave.
> >

Re: [Finale] compatibility with OS Catalina

[Robert Patterson]

FWIW: Makemusic has put up more detailed information about Catalina
compatibility.

https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360036288573-Finale-Notation-Products-and-macOS-10-15-Catalina?utm_source=Iterable_medium=email_campaign=catalina_finale_v26_postrelease

On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 2:33 PM g5gb sge5  wrote:

> I think caution is a good policy on Catalina as it has gained a reputation
> for breaking things. Hopefully Apple with get the bugs worked out.
>
> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 9:52 AM Chuck Israels 
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks, Gerald.
> >
> > Good to know. I’m still cautious.
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> > > On Oct 15, 2019, at 6:35 AM, GERALD BERG  wrote:
> > >
> > > Oops! I had to upgrade for other reasons. Not used it intensively as
> > yet, but so far so good.
> > > GJB
> > >
> > >On Tuesday, October 8, 2019, 02:36:56 PM EDT, Chuck Israels <
> > cisra...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks, Jon and Robert.
> > >
> > > I’m usually an early upgrader. Caution rules this time.
> > >
> > > Chuck
> > >
> > >> On Oct 8, 2019, at 11:07 AM, Jon Delfin  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Finale hasn't yet announced a go-ahead on Catalina. This is the most
> > recent
> > >> notice on their website:
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360036288573-Finale-Notation-Products-and-macOS-10-15-Catalina
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> So proceed at your own risk.
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 1:48 PM Chuck Israels 
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi all,
> > >>>
> > >>> Has anyone upgraded to OS Catalina? Is Finale compatible?
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>>
> > >>> Chuck
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Chuck Israels
> > >>> cisra...@comcast.net
> > >>> (360) 201-3434
> > >>>
> > >>> 6935 SW 45th Ave.
> > >>> Portland OR 97219
> > >>>
> > >>> 
> > >>>
> > >>> ___
> > >>> Finale mailing list
> > >>> Finale@shsu.edu
> > >>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> > >>>
> > >>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> > >>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> > >>>
> > >> ___
> > >> Finale mailing list
> > >> Finale@shsu.edu
> > >> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> > >>
> > >> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> > >> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> > >
> > > Chuck Israels
> > > cisra...@comcast.net
> > > (360) 201-3434
> > >
> > > 6935 SW 45th Ave.
> > > Portland OR 97219
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> > >
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> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
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> >
> > Chuck Israels
> > cisra...@comcast.net
> > (360) 201-3434
> >
> > 6935 SW 45th Ave.
> > Portland OR 97219
> >
> > 
> >
> > ___
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Re: [Finale] compatibility with OS Catalina

[Robert Patterson]

Makemusic issued a recommendation *not* to upgrade to Catalina until they
have finished evaluating it.

On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 12:48 PM Chuck Israels  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Has anyone upgraded to OS Catalina? Is Finale compatible?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chuck
>
>
> Chuck Israels
> cisra...@comcast.net
> (360) 201-3434
>
> 6935 SW 45th Ave.
> Portland OR 97219
>
> 
>
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>
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Re: [Finale] Find where expression or articulations are assigned

[Robert Patterson]

In a recent version of Patterson Plugins I introduced a function to move
lyric text blocks from one number to another. The next version will allow
combining text blocks and moving between Verse, Chorus, and Section types.
The function optional copies the system baselines for the score as well,
and the new version will add copying of system baselines in parts.

When it comes the Lyrics window, I *never* *never* use "Type Into Score". I
*always* enter them in the Lyrics Window then click assign. I also
*uncheck* "Lyrics" in the Mass Edit Filter, so that copy/paste never copies
them. (Copy/paste trashes your lyrics text blocks, in my experience.)
Instead I use my Mass Copy plugin to copy lyric assignments, both within a
doc and between documents. With care you can avoid the mess. Without care
you will definitely end up with a mess.


On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 12:06 PM J D Thomas  wrote:

> Whoa, don’t get me started on the Lyric window.  I could rant for days!!!
>
> On that same opera I mentioned in my previous message, the lyrics were
> completely unmanageable.  I spent 10 days reentering all of the lyrics in
> both acts, creating a verse for each character in the opera.  It helped
> immensely.  But, then the client had someone else edit the file who didn’t
> know or appreciate these issues and screwed it up again.  I told him I
> would no longer work on this opera for him!
>
> J D Thomas
> ThomaStudios
>
> > On Oct 4, 2019, at 9:46 AM, Dr. Ben @ Ayotte Music <
> ayottemu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > worse, by far, than the bloated lyric
> > window
>
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[Finale] Find where expression or articulations are assigned

[Robert Patterson]

I often encounter duplicate or extraneous definitions of expressions or
articulations. Does anyone know a way to find where they are used (if
Finale refuses to delete them because they are used)? Either a plugin or a
native Finale function?
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Re: [Finale] Gap between barline and time signature

[Robert Patterson]

Since no one replied, I'll share what I discovered. On the barline in
question there was an invisible key change from C Major to "Keyless". When
I changed them both to be the same, the gap disappeared.

On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 8:43 AM Robert Patterson 
wrote:

> I've got a situation where a gap is appearing between the barline and a
> time signature change. All of the other time changes are appearing
> correctly. Does anyone know what setting might be causing the gap in this
> single situation?
>
>
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[Finale] Gap between barline and time signature

[Robert Patterson]

I've got a situation where a gap is appearing between the barline and a
time signature change. All of the other time changes are appearing
correctly. Does anyone know what setting might be causing the gap in this
single situation?
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Re: [Finale] Font issues in Mac OS X 10.15

[Robert Patterson]

If the Bill Duncan font is one of the old Adobe Postscript fonts, I would
not count on it being fixed. In fact, 64-bit Finale currently has issues
with those. You can convert Adobe Postscript to a newer format using Tinker
Tool. (Ironically, a 32-bit app but runnable in a virtual if necessary.) I
recommend Open Type (ota) as the new format.

Having said that, I suppose you saw Makemusic's email about not running
10.15 until they make an official announcement about compatibility with
Finale.

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 9:06 PM Eric Dannewitz 
wrote:

> Yes, I’m running the beta. Finale works, but I’ve noticed my Articulations
> font (Bill Duncan) do not display nor print anymore.
>
> In Font Book it displays the font properly.
>
> Hopefully this will be fixed soon…...
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Re: [Finale] Laissez Vibrer

[Robert Patterson]

I use a shape expression that I create in 800% to get the exact length and
shape.

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 10:41 AM Giovanni Andreani 
wrote:

> What is the best way for obtaining a few laissez vibrer symbols for
> cymbals on a percussion staff not using Engraver font?
> Thank you.
>
> 
>
> Giovanni Andreani
>
> www.giovanniandreani.com
> www.ga-music.com
>
>
>
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Re: [Finale] Human Playback Sorcery

[Robert Patterson]

I hide extra dynamic marks and hairpins, so that they don't print. Hidden
items seem still to affect playback. Worst case, you can give your
expression a hidden font so that the Show checkmark can be checked and it
still won't print.

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 9:52 PM Dennis Bathory-Kitsz 
wrote:

> On 2019-09-10 22:39, Robert Patterson wrote:
> > I still haven't figured out why some of my parts are fading out and
> > others
> > aren't. They all have the same setting in the mixer, and I don't think
> > any
> > of them modify the volume controller. But it sure sounds like something
> > is
> > modifying it. (Only on seemingly random staves.)
>
> Please post if you figure this out. It's been plaguing me for years in
> all the iterations of Finale since human playback was introduced. I have
> to add dynamic marks and hairpins just to cancel out whatever is causing
> the problem, and then delete them before producing the printed copy of
> the score.
>
> Dennis
>
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Re: [Finale] Human Playback Sorcery

[Robert Patterson]

Well, I figured out the problem with the tempos. Human playback really
dislikes not having the top staff visible in Scroll View. I use Staff Sets
to help manage editing, and if the top staff is not in the staff set, Human
Playback loses its tempo mind about 30% of the time. But it looks like the
tempi work fine if the top staff is in the staff set.

I still haven't figured out why some of my parts are fading out and others
aren't. They all have the same setting in the mixer, and I don't think any
of them modify the volume controller. But it sure sounds like something is
modifying it. (Only on seemingly random staves.)


On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 7:03 PM dr.a.s. weinstangel 
wrote:

> That has been the case for a while already!
>
> I combine different movements into one wave file and have the playback
> from there, rather than the score (which is a PDF file).
>
> Sasha Weinstangel
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 10, 2019, at 7:56 PM, Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello List,
> >
> > I am hoping someone has some wisdom for me. I have a bunch of separate
> > files that I am trying to combine into a single document. Each of the
> > separate files plays back as I expect it to, but when I copy/insert them
> > into the new doc, things go off the rails. It ignores the tempo markings
> in
> > about half of my expressions and instead picks semi-random quite
> different
> > tempos.
> >
> > The quality of the playback patches (specifically Choral Ahhs) is quite
> > different, even though it is the same patch in both. (Both Garritan
> Finale
> > Bank Choral Ahhs.) It sounds like the tones are chorusing, as if the
> track
> > is being played simultaneously twice or more times.
> >
> > Human playback (in the new file) completely ignores "rit" and "a tempo"
> > markings. And it barely does hairpins.
> >
> > Anyway, if any of you have any idea what's going on, please share.
> > ___
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[Finale] Human Playback Sorcery

[Robert Patterson]

Hello List,

I am hoping someone has some wisdom for me. I have a bunch of separate
files that I am trying to combine into a single document. Each of the
separate files plays back as I expect it to, but when I copy/insert them
into the new doc, things go off the rails. It ignores the tempo markings in
about half of my expressions and instead picks semi-random quite different
tempos.

The quality of the playback patches (specifically Choral Ahhs) is quite
different, even though it is the same patch in both. (Both Garritan Finale
Bank Choral Ahhs.) It sounds like the tones are chorusing, as if the track
is being played simultaneously twice or more times.

Human playback (in the new file) completely ignores "rit" and "a tempo"
markings. And it barely does hairpins.

Anyway, if any of you have any idea what's going on, please share.
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Re: [Finale] different time signatures on different staves

[Robert Patterson]

To get the hairpins to behave correctly, I recommend using time signatures
that are only graphically different and using invisible tuplets to line up
the notes. (You can do one tuplet per bar and copy it easily with a plugin
like my Mass Copy plugin.) That is, set up an independent time signature
that is 4/4 showing as 12/8 then apply an invisible tuplet of 6 in the time
of 4 quarters at the beginning of each "12/8" bar.

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:14 PM Chuck Israels  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> As experienced as I am with Finale, I’ve never tried this — 12/8 on some
> staves and 4/4 on others with the dotted quarter and quarter being equal.
> I’m writing some things for classical string players and classical
> guitarists, and getting anticipations played correctly requires triple
> subdivisions of the quarter note. People used to jazz notation interpret
> eight notes in context, but I can’t expect even really good musicians
> without that experience to know when the eighths are more or less equal and
> when they’re swung, so I end up writing music cluttered with triplets.
> Being able to switch between 12/8 and 4/4 would result in a cleaner look.
>
> Have any of you done this? Is it practical?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chuck
>
> Chuck Israels
> cisra...@comcast.net
> (360) 201-3434
>
> 6935 SW 45th Ave.
> Portland OR 97219
>
> 
>
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Re: [Finale] OT: Vocal Underlay of "Mrs.:

[Robert Patterson]

FWIW (joking aside) my copy of Merriam Webster correctly identifies
"missus" as dialect in one of the definitions, and I would rather avoid
that implication.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:12 AM Jon Delfin  wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:08 PM timothy price 
> wrote:
>
> > Missus isn’t even a word. (What else could you expect from composers?)
>
>
> Or Merriam Webster. What do *they* know about words?
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Re: [Finale] OT: Vocal Underlay of "Mrs.:

[Robert Patterson]

Jennifer, I like the way you think. And I'm gonna do "Mr." that way as
well. "Mister" looks very fussy and the abbreviated form balances with
"Mrs.:

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:16 AM Jennifer Higdon  wrote:

> When I've had to do this for opera (which, if you're adhering to a
> libretto, sometimes you must follow exactly)...I've started setting this
> typed out as one word, under 2 notes, and letting the singer do the
> placing. It seems to be clearer for them.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-
> From: Robert Patterson 
> To: finale 
> Sent: Tue, Aug 27, 2019 9:28 am
> Subject: [Finale] OT: Vocal Underlay of "Mrs.:
>
> Has anyone ever had to divide "Mrs." into two syllables for vocal underlay?
> Any suggestions?
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Re: [Finale] OT: Vocal Underlay of "Mrs.:

[Robert Patterson]

Technically, "Mrs." is the abbreviation of "Mistress", but no one says that
any more. Hence, there is no generally accepted way to spell it out how we
pronounce it.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 8:51 AM timothy price 
wrote:

> Isn’t Mrs. the abbreviation of Missis?  Mis-sis.
>
> > On Aug 27, 2019, at 9:28 AM, Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone ever had to divide "Mrs." into two syllables for vocal
> underlay?
> > Any suggestions?
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[Finale] OT: Vocal Underlay of "Mrs.:

[Robert Patterson]

Has anyone ever had to divide "Mrs." into two syllables for vocal underlay?
Any suggestions?
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Re: [Finale] erratic playback volume

[Robert Patterson]

I'm pretty sure this is Human Playback thinking it's being artistic. At
least in my experience it is. If I care enough, I usually end up reminding
it of the volume with an invisible dynamic mark.

On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 12:31 PM Don Hart  wrote:

> Does anyone else experience very reduced playback volumes for no apparent
> reason?  Is there a solution to the problem?  Version 26 on a Mac now, but
> this has happened  unpredictably over several versions. Usually a restart
> helps but hasn’t so far today.
>
> Thanks in advance for your time and help.
>
> Don Hart
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Re: [Finale] Long first ending

[Robert Patterson]

I think your best bet is a line (from the Smart Shapes palette). If you
need a line of different width to match the width of the repeat ending
brackets, you can create a Custom Line. The disadvantage of a smart shape
is, of course, that smart shapes don't have staff lists. But that doesn't
appear to be a problem in this case.

On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 9:23 AM John Roberts  wrote:

> It’s a guitar tab piece, a 32-bar waltz section and with variation on the
> repeat it works out to 16-bar 1st and 2nd endings, with about 5 bars per
> system. I also seem to remember that your solution used to work, but it’s a
> long time since I needed to do this.
>
> It is for a client, but it’s my call on how it’s laid out. I need to keep
> the music theory minimal for folk guitar students  :-)  so I think a DS
> system wouldn’t work for me, and in any case similar repeats will come up
> in later sections of the piece. Triple segnos are too confusing for me!
>
> Thanks for the input.
>
> JR
>
>
> > On Aug 15, 2019, at 9:35 AM, David H. Bailey 
> wrote:
> >
> > On 8/15/2019 8:29 AM, John Roberts wrote:
> >> That’s the first thing I tried, David - I got a very long line on the
> first system that stretched way off the page.
> >> JR
> >
> > Is this something you have to do for a client or is it your own
> project?  If it's your own project, might it be better to use some sort of
> D.S. structure instead of a long first ending?
> >
> > I just tried my solution and it doesn't work -- sorry.
> >
> > I guess you just have to place it in page view, where the start of the
> ending bracket will show on the first system included in the ending, and
> the end of the ending bracket will show on its system and you'll simply
> have to place graphic lines on the in-between systems.
> >
> > I could swear my solution used to work alright when placing it in scroll
> view, but I may be confusing Finale with Sibelius, where it definitely is
> much easier to accomplish what you want.
> >
> >
> > --
> > *
> > David H. Bailey
> > dhbaile...@comcast.net
> > http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
>
>
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Re: [Finale] Fwd: Re: Tuplets across barlines

[Robert Patterson]

Patterson Plugins does not have a feature to put tuplets across barlines.
If the tuplet is beamed, then Beam Over Barlines may (or may not) do it
correctly, depending on context.

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 9:38 AM Barbara Touburg  wrote:

> On 14-8-2019 16:33, Michael Lawlor wrote:
> > I only have Patterson Plug-Ins Lite, which only deals with beaming
> > across barlines.  Do I need another version?
>
> I don't know. Have you tried it?
> You'd have to ask Robert.
> Good luck.
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Re: [Finale] Tuplets across barlines

[Robert Patterson]

You could force the entire tuplet into the previous bar and then manually
drag the notes into alignment.

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 7:44 AM Michael Lawlor 
wrote:

> Finale 2014
>
> Does anyone know a way to create tuplets grouped across barlines other
> than breaking the tuplet into two, one in each bar?
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Lawlor
>
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Re: [Finale] Elision Slurs in lyrics

[Robert Patterson]

I actually need it for English, which means there can be consonants in the
elision as well. Example: "care-fully" where there is an elision-slur
centered under the two ells (and no space between them). It seems like the
ideal would be single character that looks like the elision and has zero
width (centered). My font editing days may be behind me, but there was a
time when I could have made one. (Though it may have required kerning
against every possible combo. I don't remember it well enough now.)

Anyway, it's ridiculous Finale can't do it natively.


On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 11:10 AM Fiskum, Steve  wrote:

> Hello Robert,
>
> I deal with these types of elisions everyday. Back in the day we used to
> use an expression that was attached to a note. It worked well until I
> finally took the time to create fonts with editor specific placements for
> the many combinations of Spanish hymnal texts. I would share the font but
> it was created for a specific publisher.
>
> In the link below is the "key" I created to work with the font. Hopefully
> this can help you figure out a system that may work for you, if you decide
> to create a font - OR - I've included the elision shape expression library
> I used in the earlier versions of Finale, that I still sometimes use.
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/grk6qjpymzrrszo/BpN1qzYMJUQDT7h1bOCua?dl=0
>
> Hope this is helpful.
>
> Cheers!
> Steve Fiskum
>
> ____
> From: Finale  on behalf of Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2019 8:37 AM
> To: finale
> Subject: [Finale] Elision Slurs in lyrics
>
> Does anyone know a more professional approach to elisions than the way
> suggested in the Finale manual? The manual proposes the character shift-I
> from the Engraver Font Set. The big problem with that is that it leaves a
> gap between the two syllables. This is visually the opposite of what we
> want with an elision. In hymn books you often encounter two syllables
> eilided with no gap and a slur connecting them underneath. The official
> Finale technique, in my opinion (at least for English), is worse than just
> omitting elision slurs.
>
> I suppose I could use a shape expression, but that certainly would be
> tedious.
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[Finale] Elision Slurs in lyrics

[Robert Patterson]

Does anyone know a more professional approach to elisions than the way
suggested in the Finale manual? The manual proposes the character shift-I
from the Engraver Font Set. The big problem with that is that it leaves a
gap between the two syllables. This is visually the opposite of what we
want with an elision. In hymn books you often encounter two syllables
eilided with no gap and a slur connecting them underneath. The official
Finale technique, in my opinion (at least for English), is worse than just
omitting elision slurs.

I suppose I could use a shape expression, but that certainly would be
tedious.
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Re: [Finale] Lyric window does not show entire lyric

[Robert Patterson]

A further update. While different fonts behave differently, it appears that
any font can cause the problem if you set the font size big enough.

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 8:18 PM Anne Erickson  wrote:

> You’re right- the 1983 quote is “never trust those city-named fonts”
> alluding to the old Mac system fonts.
>
> > On Aug 7, 2019, at 8:47 PM, Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
> >
> > I actually the problem is the opposite of what you stated. I believe that
> > certain fonts see the problem whereas more mainstream fonts don't. For
> > example, neither Times nor Helvetica/Arial see the problem but New York
> > does. New York is a fairly obscure font, but it happens to be the one I
> use.
> >
> > I would not say the problem is solved. But at least the steps to
> reproduce
> > it have been refined and narrowed.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 7:16 PM David H. Bailey 
> > wrote:
> >
> >>> On 8/7/2019 2:55 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> >>> I have been following up on this with Makemusic. It turns out that if I
> >>> change the font of my Lyrics to Times then I can see the entire block.
> >> For
> >>> those on this thread who have experienced this problem, I thought you
> >> might
> >>> like to know that it depends which font you use as to whether you see
> the
> >>> problem.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I'm glad they've solved the problem, however it seems to me it's pretty
> >> poor programming when what is visible depends on the font.  I can
> >> understand a character-count limit, or a line limit, but to not function
> >> properly with any font other than Times seems like somebody in the
> >> development team dropped the ball.
> >>
> >> Thanks for sharing the solution with us, Robert!
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> *
> >> David H. Bailey
> >> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> >> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> >>
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Re: [Finale] Lyric window does not show entire lyric

[Robert Patterson]

I actually the problem is the opposite of what you stated. I believe that
certain fonts see the problem whereas more mainstream fonts don't. For
example, neither Times nor Helvetica/Arial see the problem but New York
does. New York is a fairly obscure font, but it happens to be the one I use.

I would not say the problem is solved. But at least the steps to reproduce
it have been refined and narrowed.


On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 7:16 PM David H. Bailey 
wrote:

> On 8/7/2019 2:55 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> > I have been following up on this with Makemusic. It turns out that if I
> > change the font of my Lyrics to Times then I can see the entire block.
> For
> > those on this thread who have experienced this problem, I thought you
> might
> > like to know that it depends which font you use as to whether you see the
> > problem.
> >
>
> I'm glad they've solved the problem, however it seems to me it's pretty
> poor programming when what is visible depends on the font.  I can
> understand a character-count limit, or a line limit, but to not function
> properly with any font other than Times seems like somebody in the
> development team dropped the ball.
>
> Thanks for sharing the solution with us, Robert!
>
>
> --
> *
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
>
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Re: [Finale] Lyric window does not show entire lyric

[Robert Patterson]

I have been following up on this with Makemusic. It turns out that if I
change the font of my Lyrics to Times then I can see the entire block. For
those on this thread who have experienced this problem, I thought you might
like to know that it depends which font you use as to whether you see the
problem.

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 5:41 AM GERALD BERG  wrote:

> Sure. Instead of laying the words out as in a poem. Turn it into a
> paragraph. At the very least it prevents one from bumping into the end of
> the box. For me, as one who wrote his own libretto, changing words and
> order and meaning is a constant battle and I have battled the box end a
> fair bit.
>
>
> GJB
>
> On Tuesday, August 6, 2019, 12:53 PM, Barbara Touburg 
> wrote:
>
> On 6-8-2019 18:15, GERALD BERG wrote:
> > Other then starting a new verse and divvy the lyric, you can try and
> collapse the stanza count (lines of words). It gets to be a real pain if
> you keep trying to work in the one box extended.
>
> Interesting. Can you explain what you mean by that?
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Re: [Finale] Lyric window does not show entire lyric

[Robert Patterson]

I do think I hit a limit. It appears to be an artificial limit in the UI on
the number of lines of text in the window. A  likely number is 255, but I
haven't counted them. I spread my text out on lots of lines of text
(matching the how the libretto is formatted.) This is undoubtedly the
problem.

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 9:55 AM Don Hart  wrote:

> Haven't seen this particular thing but I always avoid putting an entire
> lyric in one window.  Stems from the days when lyrics corrupted more
> easily/frequently, I suppose. Not a form thing, per se--I put verses,
> choruses, or whatever manageable section in Finale's numbered verses just
> to limit the scope of any problems that would arise.
>
> Have you reached some Lyric Window size limit, do you think?
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 9:40 AM Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone encountered an issue where the Lyric Window does not show all
> > the lyric text? That's what I am seeing for a particularly long lyric
> text.
> > (It's an opera, so lots of text.)
> >
> > If so, any work arounds?
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[Finale] Lyric window does not show entire lyric

[Robert Patterson]

Has anyone encountered an issue where the Lyric Window does not show all
the lyric text? That's what I am seeing for a particularly long lyric text.
(It's an opera, so lots of text.)

If so, any work arounds?
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Re: [Finale] dashed lines in smart shapes

[Robert Patterson]

I know of no easy way to do this. I have very few times I need to do it,
but when I do I actually use beat-attached slurs or dotted slurs. This
allows me to guarantee they are horizontal and to control their directions.
However, MakeMusic unfortunately has almost abandoned beat-attached slurs
in the U.I. since Finale 2014. Finale still supports them though, and they
work quite well with proper endpoint placement.

To get that proper endpoint placement I use my Smart Shape Editor plugin.
(One of the design goals of the plugin is to make this easier, so there are
some options there that allow for changing all the endpoints at once.) The
plugin allows precise assignment of both beat position and horizontal
offsets.

Once I have it set up, I use my Mass Copy plugin to copy it wherever
possible. That at least reduces the amount of tedium.

Finale needs a proper dashed tie option, no question. But where I use this
(in addition to dashed ties) is ties to nowhere. That is, for example, ties
over barlines to who continued ringing of piano notes and the like.

Good luck.




On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 10:13 PM Percuszionstudio <
harrojadga...@westnet.com.au> wrote:

> Oops. I was thinking of the ties, not smart shapes. Sorry.
>
> R
>
> > On 2 Aug 2019, at 12:35, Percuszionstudio 
> wrote:
> >
> > If you select the chord and be careful not to select a specific note
> Finale should just connect all notes. If only certain notes are to be
> connected that involves more work. HTH.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Ryszard
> >
> >> On 2 Aug 2019, at 12:21, Aaron Rabushka 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Does any of you know a way to get dashed lines, curved in the proper
> >> directions,  to connect each note of a chord? The program simply writes
> each
> >> one over the previous one, and I've had to drag one of the copies out
> and
> >> modify its direction by pulling several of its defining points from the
> old
> >> shape to the new. Does anybody know of a way to do this that is not so
> >> tedious?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Aaron J. Rabushka
> >>
> >> Austin, TX
> >>
> >> Finale 2014.0.3163 in Windows 10
> >>
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Re: [Finale] Ease of parenthesizing notes

[Robert Patterson]

Thank you to Raymond for bringing this new Finale 26 Articulation feature
to the attention of the group. I tinkered with it a little. To be clear, it
only works with Finale 26 using the default file(s) shipped with Finale 26
as templates. You could however add equivalent articulation definitions to
older files.

Unfortunately the feature has severe limitations that probably don't
measure up to the Sibelius feature. Autopositioning does not take
accidentals into account, so any parenthesized note with an accidental
requires moving the articulation manually. Also, you will have to manually
drag them if you are dealing with multiple notes in a chord. Finally, the
parentheses do not scale with notehead reduction. In my opinion, Finale
still has a long way to go on this.


On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 4:35 PM Raymond Horton 
wrote:

> I do not know if everybody gets the “scoring notes” that I have been
> getting . But there was one Post about how easy putting parenthesis on
> Notes it is in Sibelius. I put in a feature request to Finale and got this
> message:
>
> Thank you for contacting MakeMusic!  At the moment, you can use the
> Articulation metatools 9 and 0 to place parentheses around your notes.
>
> Raymond Horton
> Composer/Arranger
> Minister of Music,
> Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church
> Retired Bass Trombonist,
> Louisville Orchestra, 1970-2016
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Re: [Finale] Default file with Wizard

[Robert Patterson]

At least on Mac, the setup wizard uses whichever document style you choose.
Edit the one you are choosing. (Document styles are not the same as the
Maestro Default file.) I can't swear it always uses the page size in the
style doc, though. I created a document style of my own, and it definitely
uses the page size in that when I do Custom layouts with the wizard. (Which
is almost all the time how I start.) If something is overriding the page
size, I would expect it to be in Configuration Files somewhere (like
"ensembles.txt"). But I don't see page size anywhere in there.

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 8:21 AM Lawrence Yates 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> thanks, I've changed that but the Wizard seems to use a different file as
> the default.
>
> <
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>
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 14:05, Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I believe you can modify the document style file(s) to change the default
> > page size(s). On Mac the template files are in
> >
> > ~/Library/Application Support/MakeMusic/Finale 26/Music Files/Document
> > Styles
> >
> > They are someplace comparable on Windows, but I don't remember exactly
> the
> > folder path.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 7:28 AM Lawrence Yates 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi, can somebody please tell me how to change the default to A4 rather
> > than
> > > Letter on new files created with the wizard.  I've tried everything I
> can
> > > think of and am getting nowhere.
> > >
> > > I know how to do it when creating new files without the wizard, it's
> just
> > > the wizard version that I need to change to A4 default.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Lawrence
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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> > >
> > > <
> > >
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Re: [Finale] Default file with Wizard

[Robert Patterson]

I believe you can modify the document style file(s) to change the default
page size(s). On Mac the template files are in

~/Library/Application Support/MakeMusic/Finale 26/Music Files/Document
Styles

They are someplace comparable on Windows, but I don't remember exactly the
folder path.



On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 7:28 AM Lawrence Yates 
wrote:

> Hi, can somebody please tell me how to change the default to A4 rather than
> Letter on new files created with the wizard.  I've tried everything I can
> think of and am getting nowhere.
>
> I know how to do it when creating new files without the wizard, it's just
> the wizard version that I need to change to A4 default.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lawrence
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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[Finale] Text underlay question

[Robert Patterson]

I would like to set the word "eventually" as 3 syllables, e-ven-tually. It
works because the next word is "you'll" and it is quite natural to slur
together the final three syllables of "enventually" in that context. But
the e-ven-tually hyphenation looks weird. I thought of three possibilities:

1. use e-ven-tually
2. place a couple of grace notes before the main note and hyphenate it out
as e-ven-tu-al-ly with grace notes on the "tu" and "a"
3. use a contraction: e-ven-ch'ly? e-ven-t'ly?

None of those is very happy. Does this list have any suggestions?
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Re: [Finale] No success sending PDFs to Australia

[Robert Patterson]

I see you are using a gmail address. That comes with ample storage in your
Google drive. Just copy the files to a folder in your Shared Files folder,
then right click the subfolder for link that you can send to the people in
Australia.

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 6:29 AM Raymond Horton 
wrote:

> An orchestra in Australia has purchased a copy of my orchestral
> transcription of the Rimsky-Korsakov trombone concerto. I have twice sent I
> am email with all the PDFs attached, and twice they write me back that the
> message arrives with the PDFs no longer attached. I am no technical expert,
> does anyone have a suggestion? Thanks for any suggestions!
>
> Raymond Horton
> Composer/Arranger
> Minister of Music,
> Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church
> Retired Bass Trombonist,
> Louisville Orchestra, 1970-2016
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Re: [Finale] Need help with HP LJ 5000 and MacOS Mojave

[Robert Patterson]

If your ethernet is wired, turn off wifi on your computer.

On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 12:18 PM Robert Patterson <
rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:

> So first things first. Check that ping actually produces different results
> on your wife's machine. Then make doubly certain you have the right IP
> address. After that you have to start investigating why your computer can't
> see the printer. Do you have any separate routers or wifi access points
> other than your main router?
>
> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 12:16 PM Johannes Gebauer <
> li...@musikmanufaktur.com> wrote:
>
>> So here is the real result:
>>
>> [Johannes-MacBook:~] johannesgebauer% ping 192.168.178.29
>> PING 192.168.178.29 (192.168.178.29): 56 data bytes
>> Request timeout for icmp_seq 0
>> Request timeout for icmp_seq 1
>> Request timeout for icmp_seq 2
>> Request timeout for icmp_seq 3
>> Request timeout for icmp_seq 4
>> Request timeout for icmp_seq 5
>> Request timeout for icmp_seq 6
>> Request timeout for icmp_seq 7
>> ^Z
>> Suspended
>> [Johannes-MacBook:~] johannesgebauer%
>>
>> Expected?
>>
>> Am 05.05.19 um 18:31 schrieb Robert Patterson:
>> > Suppose your printer's IP address is 192.168.1.5. Open your terminal and
>> > type in
>> >
>> > ping 192.168.1.5
>> >
>> > If your computer can see the address it should start responding
>> > continuously until you hit ctrl-Z. If it doesn't, then for some reason
>> your
>> > computer doesn't see the printer.
>>
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Re: [Finale] Need help with HP LJ 5000 and MacOS Mojave

[Robert Patterson]

So first things first. Check that ping actually produces different results
on your wife's machine. Then make doubly certain you have the right IP
address. After that you have to start investigating why your computer can't
see the printer. Do you have any separate routers or wifi access points
other than your main router?

On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 12:16 PM Johannes Gebauer 
wrote:

> So here is the real result:
>
> [Johannes-MacBook:~] johannesgebauer% ping 192.168.178.29
> PING 192.168.178.29 (192.168.178.29): 56 data bytes
> Request timeout for icmp_seq 0
> Request timeout for icmp_seq 1
> Request timeout for icmp_seq 2
> Request timeout for icmp_seq 3
> Request timeout for icmp_seq 4
> Request timeout for icmp_seq 5
> Request timeout for icmp_seq 6
> Request timeout for icmp_seq 7
> ^Z
> Suspended
> [Johannes-MacBook:~] johannesgebauer%
>
> Expected?
>
> Am 05.05.19 um 18:31 schrieb Robert Patterson:
> > Suppose your printer's IP address is 192.168.1.5. Open your terminal and
> > type in
> >
> > ping 192.168.1.5
> >
> > If your computer can see the address it should start responding
> > continuously until you hit ctrl-Z. If it doesn't, then for some reason
> your
> > computer doesn't see the printer.
>
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Re: [Finale] Need help with HP LJ 5000 and MacOS Mojave

[Robert Patterson]

Suppose your printer's IP address is 192.168.1.5. Open your terminal and
type in

ping 192.168.1.5

If your computer can see the address it should start responding
continuously until you hit ctrl-Z. If it doesn't, then for some reason your
computer doesn't see the printer.





On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 11:27 AM Johannes Gebauer 
wrote:

> Am 05.05.19 um 18:22 schrieb Robert Patterson:
> > Does the printer answer a ping?
>
> How do I test this?
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Re: [Finale] Need help with HP LJ 5000 and MacOS Mojave

[Robert Patterson]

Does the printer answer a ping?

On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 11:21 AM Johannes Gebauer 
wrote:

> Dear Robert,
>
> well, since noone else reported problems of their HP 5000 I assumed
> there must be drier compatibility. However, the real test right now is
> accessing the web interface of the printer, which works from my wife's
> Mac, and even from my iphone, but not from my own Mac. Now, this is
> definitely not a driver issue, as no driver needs to be installed.
>
> So what is it? I can access all other internal network addresses from my
> mac just fine.
>
> This is driving me nuts, I desperately need to print some music out.
>
> Am 05.05.19 um 18:00 schrieb Robert Patterson:
> > i don't know why you doubt lack of compatibility with Mojave. It could
> well
> > be that. How old is the driver, and is there a newer one?
> >
> > In a pinch you should be able to access it as a share on your wife's
> > computer.
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Re: [Finale] Need help with HP LJ 5000 and MacOS Mojave

[Robert Patterson]

That does sound more like network settings. Can you access any addresses on
your local wireless network? (Like the router address?)

On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 11:11 AM Johannes Gebauer 
wrote:

> Another update: Disabling the firewall makes no difference.
>
> I can also not access the web interface of the printer from my Mojave
> Mac, while it can be accessed easily from my wife's El Capitan machine.
>
> There must be a setting here that I haven't found, and it is obviously
> not a driver issue.
>
> Johannes
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Re: [Finale] Need help with HP LJ 5000 and MacOS Mojave

[Robert Patterson]

i don't know why you doubt lack of compatibility with Mojave. It could well
be that. How old is the driver, and is there a newer one?

In a pinch you should be able to access it as a share on your wife's
computer.


On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 10:57 AM Johannes Gebauer 
wrote:

> Yes, config page is as it should be, and the printer works fine in the
> same network from my wife's Mac with El Capitan. So it must be either
> some security setting with mine, or an incompatiblity with Mojave, which
> I rather doubt.
>
> I'll try disabling the firewall as a test.
>
> Am 05.05.19 um 17:07 schrieb j...@thomastudios.com:
> > Worst-case scenario is that your Jet Direct card is incompatible or
> toast; but I kind of doubt the latter.  I had a 5100 that lost all ethernet
> connectivity following a power outage.  I purchased a Jet Direct 635 card
> from Amazon that fixed my issue, and it was faster, 1000 baseT versus 100
> for the old 615 card.
> >
> > Did you print a config page and does it print out the Network info
> Thomas alluded to?  After my power outage, a config page showed now JD card
> installed, even tho is was indeed there.
> >
> >
> > ***
> > J D Thomas
> > ThomaStudios
> >
> >
> >
> >> On May 5, 2019, at 6:40 AM, Johannes Gebauer
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I hope there are still some HP 5000 users here...
> >>
> >> I recently upgraded to Macos Mojave, I had been on a much older version
> (Sierra or High Sierra, cannot remember). Ever since I upgraded I cannot
> get my HP 5000 to print any more.
> >>
> >> Has anything changed in how it is accessed? Is there anything I can do?
> >>
> >> My HP 5000 is connected via an Ethernet cable to the router, via its
> J4169A interface, which seems to have the latest firmware. The printer is
> seen in the add printer control panel as a Bonjour printer. I tried both
> this and the HP JetDirect - Socket connection.
> >>
> >> I have enabled all available protocols, but the computer doesn't seem
> to talk to the printer. Nothing gets printed...
> >>
> >> Any ideas?
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Re: [Finale] [OT] voice part only

[Robert Patterson]

In my experience, the singer reads from score, with the proviso that the
vocal line is immediately above the piano line and that the other
instruments on are reduced-size staves above the vocal line. (See, for
example, the score of Pierrot Lunaire
.)

The other option would be to provide a piano/vocal score with a piano
reduction of all the instrumental parts. But that may be more trouble than
you need for this particular project.

On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 5:00 AM SN jef chippewa <
shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote:

>
> i only rarely encounter voice in the ensemble scores i do, so any
> advice would be appreciated.
>
> i've been asked to create the vocal part (no other parts) for a
> late-18th century french song for voice, violin, cello and piano.
> just wanted to make sure that nothing aside from a couple of cues
> would be needed and the part only requires the vocal line.  or is it
> standard to make voice parts as a piano-vocal part (perhaps for
> rehearsal purposes)?
>
> the job is for a professional ensemble that could probably sightread the
> score.
>
> thanks,
> jef
>
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[Finale] Opera Score Order

[Robert Patterson]

Hello list,

I am interested to know if there is any particular convention around the
score order for vocal parts in an opera. Is it strictly by voice type, or
is there a preference given to principle vs. secondary parts? Or some other
convention I haven't thought of?

Thank you for any insights you may have.
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Re: [Finale] Disappearing parts

[Robert Patterson]

It sounds like file corruption to me. I would run Data Check and see what
it says.

On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 2:47 PM Dennis Bathory-Kitsz 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have an issue that's a little tricky to explain.
>
> This weekend I had to go back to a flute/piano score and make a fix where
> Finale had twice placed incorrect block rests in the flute part: there were
> two block rests (17+2) ignoring 11 measures of notes at the start of the
> first
> movement and two block rests (26+8) ignoring 24 measures of notes at the
> start
> of the third movement.
>
> The score was done in Finale 25.4.1.152 (Windows 10) on 10/31/17.
>
> I opened the file in Finale 25.5.0.290 to find there was no flute part
> present
> at all in the parts menu, nor were any parts present in the "manage parts"
> dialog. The only thing in the "manage parts" dialog was the title of the
> piece.
>
> However, my properly formatted flute and piano parts *could* be accessed
> using
> [ctl+alt+.]
>
> The program had kept the parts but erased their usual access modes. Since I
> didn't trust the program to save things properly, I created new parts
> (which
> destroyed the layout, the separator pages between the movements, and the
> title
> page). Now re-opening the file properly shows all the parts.
>
> I'm wondering what might have caused the assignment of a block rests in
> place
> of notes, and if it might be related to losing the presence of parts.
>
> I keep numbered backups. #308 was where the parts were first created, and
> #321
> was the last. 308-321 were done on the same day without closing the
> program,
> so if it was some sort of bug, it carried through to when I re-opened and
> saved the file as #322 this weekend.
>
> Has anyone come across something like this?
>
> Thanks,
> Dennis
>
>
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[Finale] Importance of 3rd Party Plugins to Finale

[Robert Patterson]

The Tantacrul Youtube channel recently published a good critique video of
MuseScore. The channel has already published one on Sibelius and is
promising one for Dorico and Finale as well. In the Fin/Sib wars, the
author is definitely a Sib partisan, though he hates the design layout of
Sib. Therefore I fully expect his Finale video will be a complete pan (with
much of it doubtless justified).

I have never disputed that Finale's usuability is pretty terrible, *unless
you integrate 3rd party plugins* into your workflow. A great example comes
at this point in the MuseScore
 video. The author
correctly notes how much slower MuseScore is than Sibelius. And honestly,
they both seem like they may beat out native Finale. However, they both are
repetitive solutions that grow in a linear relation with the number of
staves and number of measures. By contrast, if you incorporate my Mass Copy
plugin into this task, you only make the change once and then copy to as
many staves and measures as you select with a single click. The length of
time required is no longer related to the number of staves/bars and is
*much* faster than either technique in the video.

This post is not intended to be an advertisement. Finale has many
indispensable 3rd party plugins I didn't write, including free ones. I am
mainly posting this here because I thought the group might be interested in
Tantacrul's quite entertaining videos. And I also wanted to note how
Finale's powerful 3rd party plugin interface keeps it competitive in the
face of mounting serious challengers.
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Re: [Finale] Collision of Noteheads

[Robert Patterson]

You can use the Notehead Position Tool to move the notehead wherever you
need it to be. (This is one of the Special Tools, which is available on the
Tool Palette under the wrench icon.)

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 11:24 AM Michael Lawlor 
wrote:

> The notes are semibreves, so there is no stem.
>
> On 20/03/2019 12:37, Christopher Smith wrote:
> > If I understand correctly, your noteheads will be F G G A. There is no
> way to get those on one stem without collisions. I suggest a split stem
> (Special Tools).
> >
> > Christopher
> >
> >> On Mar 20, 2019, at 6:46 AM, Michael Lawlor 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Finale 2014.5
> >>
> >> I have entered pitches in a chord: F 1/4 sharp, G 1/6 flat, A flat, B
> double-flat.  I wish the A flat to be G sharp and the B double-flat to be A
> natural.  However, in my first step of changing B double-flat to A natural,
> the note head collides with the G 1/6 flat below it.  I have checked "Music
> Spacing" "Avoid Collision Of" "Unisons" "All noteheads" but it will not
> solve the problem.  I have tried changing the A flat to G sharp but that
> creates a real mess at the moment.  Is there another parameter that needs
> setting to avoid collisions?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Michael Lawlor
> >>
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Re: [Finale] Moving measures

[Robert Patterson]

I've seen this behavior when the 1st of the two measures you are trying to
move had a page break attached.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 8:53 AM Christopher Smith <
christopher.sm...@videotron.ca> wrote:

> Are you in the Selection Tool?
>
> Otherwise, when Finale starts acting wonky, I quit, logout (or reboot the
> computer) and start again. That usually clears the problem.
>
> Christopher
>
>
> > On Tue Mar 12, at TuesdayMar 12 9:48 AM, Lawrence David Eden <
> lde...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Listers,
> >
> > I am running Fin 25 and Mac Mojave.
> >
> > I used to be able to move measures from one system to another but can no
> longer do that.  For example:  I have a 2 page document that needs to have
> 2 extra measures from page 3.  Used to be I could use my up/down arrows
> after highlighting the offending measures, and Finale would move the extra
> measures back onto page 2.  But it doesn’t work today.  What have I missed?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Larry Eden
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Re: [Finale] Multi-part staves in large scores (Fin 25)

[Robert Patterson]

Christopher,

Your problems might be related to the frame count. I couldn't say for sure.
You could run Data Check and see what happens. I don't recall how to
display file stats in Fin06, but I believe there is a way. If the stats
show a frame count anywhere close 32767, you are in the danger zone.

Note, btw, that Finale 26 is just as likely to have these problems as
Finale 2006.

Robert


On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 2:14 PM C. Husted  wrote:

> I am especially intrigued by part of Mr. Patterson's post of today:
>
>
> "The only downside I can see is if the file is big enough to be anywhere
> close the 32767 frame limit. If 20-30 staves becomes 40-50, a dense piece
> of several hundred measures could potentially hit it. A frame is an
> internal Finale data structure that holds music for 1 layer in 1 bar in 1
> staff. 32767 is the maximum positive value in a signed 16-bit integer. This
> limit is a holdover from Finale having been developed in the 1980s. "Why
> haven't they fixed this?" you might well ask. I have no idea, but I would
> guess it must be a really painful and risky change to the code base."
>
>
> I am still using Finale 2006 for most of the jobs that matter (because
> of the enduring non-compliance with OpenType), and have been
> especially frustrated with long scores that eventually have odd
> problems: they don't optimize correctly; part names and numbers
> don't appear, etc. Could this problem be due to this frame limit?
>
> Christopher Husted
>
>
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Re: [Finale] Multi-part staves in large scores (Fin 25)

[Robert Patterson]

As you have noted, every solution to this issue is a workaround. But
maintaining a score that contains both a combined staff for the score and
separated staves for the parts seems like an attractive option. Whether you
create the separated staves first and combine them or create the combine
staff first and separate them seems like it would be entirely dependent on
musical context. There may be passages where they have to be separate
anyway, in which case you could dispense with the score staff entirely.

This is all to suggest that while you have named plugins that can make this
approach easier, I would not be looking for a one-size-fits-all solution. I
would approach it section by section. Having said that, I personally still
maintain two files. One file contains the score and all non-combined parts.
The other contains just the decombined parts. But moving to a single file
with duplicate staves does seem like a good idea.

The only downside I can see is if the file is big enough to be anywhere
close the 32767 frame limit. If 20-30 staves becomes 40-50, a dense piece
of several hundred measures could potentially hit it. A frame is an
internal Finale data structure that holds music for 1 layer in 1 bar in 1
staff. 32767 is the maximum positive value in a signed 16-bit integer. This
limit is a holdover from Finale having been developed in the 1980s. "Why
haven't they fixed this?" you might well ask. I have no idea, but I would
guess it must be a really painful and risky change to the code base.

To me it is outrageous that they have not activated Special Tools for
voiced parts. That limitation existed because when voiced parts were
introduced, Special Tool edits could not be unlinked. But now that they
can, I don't understand why voiced parts can't use them.








On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 4:26 AM Christopher Smith <
christopher.sm...@videotron.ca> wrote:

> Hi Doug,
>
> Your method of single instruments to create the score, then combining them
> afterward, is what I do generally.
>
> To solve the doubled expression/articulation problem (which of course is
> WAY worse in V26 with stacked articulations!) I set the filter to copy only
> expressions and articulations, and copy over from one of the source staves.
> It’s a pain,  and it is far from perfect, but it’s what I do.
>
> Christopher
>
>
> > On Mar 3, 2019, at 11:51 PM, Doug Walter  wrote:
> >
> > I know the topic of trying to use voiced parts (all but useless to me as
> it stands) has been covered and I’ve tried all the workarounds at various
> times and know the issues, so I’m not asking about that. The TGTools
> plug-in “Smart Explosion of multi-part staves…” often yields better
> results, but it’s still not the close-to-100% solution I’m looking for.
> I’ve also had some success with the JW Staff Polyphony plug-in. To be
> clear, this is not just to make the score look good; I want to retain the
> convenience of linked parts so I don’t have to go back to extracting
> individual parts, etc.
> >
> > So after years of trying every method I can think of, I thought I’d
> approach it from the other direction this time in an orchestral score I’m
> working on. This time I set the score up with each woodwind and brass
> instrument on its own line, which of course would necessitate the use of a
> microscope to read the score even on 11 x 17 paper at the reduction
> necessary to fit all the staves on each page. But my hope is that by using
> the JW Staff Polyphony plug-in to combine 2 staves into 1 where possible
> (Flute 1/2, Clarinet 1/2, etc.) and then hiding the staves with individual
> parts in the score, it might be less tedious. It seems to be promising, but
> I still end up with double sets of expressions - dynamics, for instance.
> >
> > I can make all this work one way or another and have many times, but I’m
> writing in case there is a plug-in I haven’t yet explored out there, or in
> case someone knows a way to set the ones I’m using to yield results that
> don’t require as much “clean-up” afterwards. BTW, the “old way” - creating
> 2-part staves and exploding them later - has been tried both with and
> without using separate layers, and I’ve discovered some of those pitfalls
> as well.
> >
> > Thanks for any approaches I may not have thought of,
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
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Re: [Finale] Metatools

[Robert Patterson]

You can reprogram the transposition metatools (6-9) by hitting cmd-shift-#
while in the Selection Tool.

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 7:11 AM Christopher Smith <
christopher.sm...@videotron.ca> wrote:

> Those are the default metatools. In the Selection Tool,
> 6 down a step
> 7 up a step
> 8 down an octave
> 9 up an octave
>
> Also useful:
> 5 beat spacing
> 4 music spacing
> 3 elapsed time
> 2 explode
> 1 implode
>
>
> https://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/FinaleMac/Content/Finale/ht-metatools.htm?Highlight=metatools
> <
> https://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/FinaleMac/Content/Finale/ht-metatools.htm?Highlight=metatools
> >
>
> Christopher
>
>
> > On Feb 12, 2019, at 7:11 AM, Lawrence David Eden 
> wrote:
> >
> > Finale 25.5 Mac OS Mojave
> >
> > Where are the transposition meta tools stored?  I used to hit “7” to
> transpose a measure down and octave, and “8” to transpose up an octave.
> Right now, Finale is transposing up a whole step when I hit “7” and down an
> octave when I hit “8.”
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > Larry Eden
> > ___
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> >
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Re: [Finale] Hairpins

[Robert Patterson]

Yes it works in windows. You have to download the windows version. I don't
know the plugin folder in Windows but Program Options will show it.

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 5:35 PM Martin Nickless  wrote:

> Sorry doesn’t work in windows
> No problem
> Some easy instruction would help
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 2 Feb 2019, at 23:15, Robert Patterson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Unzip the plugins files.
> > Quit Finale.
> > Drag the "Patterson Plugins" folder to Finale's plugin folder.
> > Restart Finale.
> >
> > You can find the Finale Plugins folder by looking at the Folders tab in
> > Program Options.
> >
> >
> >> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 5:03 PM Martin Nickless 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks I’m  on windows 10
> >> Could you help with that version cheers
> >> Martin
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On 2 Feb 2019, at 21:26, "j...@thomastudios.com" 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> With Finale not running, place Robert’s plugin bundle into the Plugins
> >> folder.  If you’re on a Mac, this will be in your user folder, Library,
> >> under Application Support.
> >>>
> >>> ***
> >>> J D Thomas
> >>> ThomaStudios
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Feb 2, 2019, at 12:58 PM, Martin Nickless 
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi downloaded can see the files
> >>>> How do  I open in finale
> >>>> Thank you
> >>>> Martin
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 2 Feb 2019, at 18:31, Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You can get Mass Copy by downloading it from my website
> >>>>> <http://robertgpatterson.com/-fininfo/finmain.html>. The download
> >> includes
> >>>>> an unrestricted 30-day trial.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 12:07 PM Martin Nickless <
> mnnickl...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi how do I get that ?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 2 Feb 2019, at 17:31, "j...@thomastudios.com" <
> j...@thomastudios.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Besides Chris’ suggestion, Robert’s Mass Copy works great in this
> >>>>>> situation.  I use it all the time.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ***
> >>>>>>> J D Thomas
> >>>>>>> ThomaStudios
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Feb 2, 2019, at 7:48 AM, Martin Nickless  >
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi there could I ask a simple question
> >>>>>>>> “ how do you enter many hair pins into finale
> >>>>>>>> Eg on every staff
> >>>>>>>> And is there a metatool that can do this
> >>>>>>>> And finally his can I ensure they will all be in line
> >>>>>>>> Thanks very much
> >>>>>>>> Martin
> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>>> ___
> >>>>>>>> Finale mailing list
> >>>>>>>> Finale@shsu.edu
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >>>>>>>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ___
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> >>>>>>> Finale@shsu.edu
> >>>>>>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >>&g

Re: [Finale] Hairpins

[Robert Patterson]

Unzip the plugins files.
Quit Finale.
Drag the "Patterson Plugins" folder to Finale's plugin folder.
Restart Finale.

You can find the Finale Plugins folder by looking at the Folders tab in
Program Options.


On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 5:03 PM Martin Nickless  wrote:

> Thanks I’m  on windows 10
> Could you help with that version cheers
> Martin
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 2 Feb 2019, at 21:26, "j...@thomastudios.com" 
> wrote:
> >
> > With Finale not running, place Robert’s plugin bundle into the Plugins
> folder.  If you’re on a Mac, this will be in your user folder, Library,
> under Application Support.
> >
> > ***
> > J D Thomas
> > ThomaStudios
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Feb 2, 2019, at 12:58 PM, Martin Nickless 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi downloaded can see the files
> >> How do  I open in finale
> >> Thank you
> >> Martin
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On 2 Feb 2019, at 18:31, Robert Patterson 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> You can get Mass Copy by downloading it from my website
> >>> <http://robertgpatterson.com/-fininfo/finmain.html>. The download
> includes
> >>> an unrestricted 30-day trial.
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 12:07 PM Martin Nickless 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi how do I get that ?
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 2 Feb 2019, at 17:31, "j...@thomastudios.com" 
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Besides Chris’ suggestion, Robert’s Mass Copy works great in this
> >>>> situation.  I use it all the time.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ***
> >>>>> J D Thomas
> >>>>> ThomaStudios
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Feb 2, 2019, at 7:48 AM, Martin Nickless 
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi there could I ask a simple question
> >>>>>> “ how do you enter many hair pins into finale
> >>>>>> Eg on every staff
> >>>>>> And is there a metatool that can do this
> >>>>>> And finally his can I ensure they will all be in line
> >>>>>> Thanks very much
> >>>>>> Martin
> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>> ___
> >>>>>> Finale mailing list
> >>>>>> Finale@shsu.edu
> >>>>>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >>>>>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ___
> >>>>> Finale mailing list
> >>>>> Finale@shsu.edu
> >>>>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >>>>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >>>>
> >>>> ___
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> >>>> Finale@shsu.edu
> >>>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>>>
> >>>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >>>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >>> ___
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> >>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>>
> >>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >>
> >> ___
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> >>
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Re: [Finale] Hairpins

[Robert Patterson]

You can get Mass Copy by downloading it from my website
. The download includes
an unrestricted 30-day trial.

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 12:07 PM Martin Nickless 
wrote:

> Hi how do I get that ?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 2 Feb 2019, at 17:31, "j...@thomastudios.com" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Besides Chris’ suggestion, Robert’s Mass Copy works great in this
> situation.  I use it all the time.
> >
> > ***
> > J D Thomas
> > ThomaStudios
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Feb 2, 2019, at 7:48 AM, Martin Nickless 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi there could I ask a simple question
> >> “ how do you enter many hair pins into finale
> >> Eg on every staff
> >> And is there a metatool that can do this
> >> And finally his can I ensure they will all be in line
> >> Thanks very much
> >> Martin
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> ___
> >> Finale mailing list
> >> Finale@shsu.edu
> >> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >
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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

[Robert Patterson]

After a software product becomes mature, control passes from engineers to
managers and marketers. This happens to every software I've ever worked
with, including my own. It will happen to Dorico too, eventually.

Yeah, the dongle is a deal breaker for me.

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 4:37 PM Eric Dannewitz 
wrote:

> Yes, I would agree too. TGTools and other plugins make Finale perfectly
> fine for doing music.
>
> And it doesn’t require some stupid dongle to run on multiple computer.
>
>
> > On Jan 31, 2019, at 1:37 PM, Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
> >
> > It seems as though the point of my plugin post is being lost. The point
> was
> > that with 3rd-party plugins you can design a work flow in Finale that is
> > highly efficient. That Dorico can achieve comparable efficiency out of
> the
> > box is to its credit, but my point is that it is quite possible to
> achieve
> > a similar level of efficiency with Finale. Doing so requires thought,
> > planning and, above all, 3rd-party plugins.
> >
> > What you absolutely *can't* do in Finale is multi-turn slurs like Dorico
> > apparently has. And that is one (among many) failures of Coda
> > Music/MakeMusic to show leadership. They could have implemented
> multi-turn
> > slurs 15 years ago and been an industry first mover. I know because I
> > suggested it then and at regular intervals since. This is but one
> example.
> >
> > Nevertheless I would also dispute that the current dev staff at Makemusic
> > lacks commitment or talent. On the contrary, my dealings with them
> reveal a
> > talented staff that knows the code base and is committed to improving it.
> > If there are leadership problems at Makemusic, they are higher up than
> the
> > developer staff I deal with.
>
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Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

[Robert Patterson]

It seems as though the point of my plugin post is being lost. The point was
that with 3rd-party plugins you can design a work flow in Finale that is
highly efficient. That Dorico can achieve comparable efficiency out of the
box is to its credit, but my point is that it is quite possible to achieve
a similar level of efficiency with Finale. Doing so requires thought,
planning and, above all, 3rd-party plugins.

What you absolutely *can't* do in Finale is multi-turn slurs like Dorico
apparently has. And that is one (among many) failures of Coda
Music/MakeMusic to show leadership. They could have implemented multi-turn
slurs 15 years ago and been an industry first mover. I know because I
suggested it then and at regular intervals since. This is but one example.

Nevertheless I would also dispute that the current dev staff at Makemusic
lacks commitment or talent. On the contrary, my dealings with them reveal a
talented staff that knows the code base and is committed to improving it.
If there are leadership problems at Makemusic, they are higher up than the
developer staff I deal with.


On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 10:12 AM Steve Parker  wrote:

> Here are my most used plugins (JW and Patterson):
>
> Copy Part Layout - native in Dorico
> Instrument Change - native in Dorico
> Kitchen Department - native in Dorico
> Start New Piece - native in Dorico
> Yada Yada Tremelo - easily achieved and customised in Dorico
> Settings Scrapbook - I only used this to overcome a terrible old bug, not
> needed in Dorico
>
> Percussion goes way beyond any other software in that you can have, for
> example, a kit in the score but split to separate staves in the parts. You
> can easily move an instrument with its music to another player.
> Using Dorico’s ‘flows’, you can have multiple new pieces with
> automatically shown and completely formatable and customisable title/header
> info, set per layout to start on a new page or to flow on from the previous
> page - with different automatic titling options for each.
>
> As to the relevance of this discussion, this is not a MakeMusic owned
> group. Most of us (I’m sure) have to be able to at least work in Finale and
> Sibelius. I sometimes have to prepare scores in Cubase, Logic and DP.
> Comparing software across platforms is a very useful thing, especially
> Jari’s and Robert’s plugins - without which Finale would be a horror. If
> MakeMusic have any sense they will be playing with Dorico to see where they
> need to go.
>
> Steve P.
>
> > On 31 Jan 2019, at 13:42, David H. Bailey 
> wrote:
> >
> > Craig makes some very important points.  Added to the fact that Finale
> is basically frozen in time is it's horrible corporate history, having been
> sold from company to company because nobody has any idea what to do with
> it.  There is a very real fear that someday whichever company owns Finale
> at that point might try to sell it, find no buyers and then just let it die
> forever, leaving all Finale users high and dry and in need of other
> notation software to move to.
> >
> > One additional point I would make is that like all human discussion
> groups, the discussion moves in whatever direction those who are doing the
> discussing move it.  If someone wants to get it back more focused on
> Finale, then it's important that they raise a question or make a statement
> for others to discuss.
> >
> > This group is not lead by designated discussion leaders -- we're all
> responsible for the discussions.
> >
> > So ask a finale related question and see where the discussion goes.
> >
> > David H. Bailey
> >
> >
> >
> > On 1/31/2019 8:35 AM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
> >> If Finale were doing any significant developments to their product I'm
> sure we would be happy to talk about that.  It is the fact that Finale is
> basically frozen in time that causes people to think about what other
> options are available and practical.
> >> In the case of this thread, the main question seems to be how difficult
> it would be to make a move to Dorico if a person uses the various FInale
> plug-ins very heavily. If this doesn't interest you, that's OK, but it
> seems to be a rather important question for those who depend on the
> plug-ins.
> >> Those Finale plug-ins don't always have a direct counterpart in Dorico.
> That's why it is necessary to talk in some depth about how Dorico operates.
> >> On 1/31/2019 3:14 AM, Paolo Alberto Rismondo wrote:
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> It seems to me that this is 'Finale mailing list', not '... mailing
> list'.
> >>>
> >>> Thank you in advance for your kind attention,
> >>>
> >>> all best,
> >>>
> >>> Paolo A. Rismondo
> >> ---
> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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> 

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

[Robert Patterson]

Many that I described are plugins that I developed myself and are available
in the Patterson Plugins Collection at my website. Some are in the full
version of TGTools. Some are available as free downloads on Jari
Williamsson's website.

On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 11:03 AM Michael Meyer  wrote:

> So Robert, when you say “3rd party plugin” do you mean plugins that others
> have made that you’ve procured along the way? Or “3rd party” meaning “not
> included in the included Finale plugins” and so you have made all of these
> on your own?
>
> Just a question out of curiosity more than anything. Thanks for all of your
> descriptions here, this is an amazing discussion! And I would love to hear
> how many of these are addressed in Dorico out-of-the-box from someone who
> is using it regularly.
>
> — Mike
>
> On January 26, 2019 at 10:04:45 AM, Robert Patterson (
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com) wrote:
>
> > Besides the Patterson Beams, TGTools, and JW plugins included in Finale,
> I
> > use 3rd party plugins to
> >
> > 1. Copy arbitrary combinations and patterns of expressions, dynamics,
> > articulations, and other elements in a repeated fashion, independent of
> > barlines, both vertically and horizontally.
> >
> > 2. Mass Relink, which can relink the score to the part's settings or vice
> > versa.
> >
> > 3. Autocreate multimeasure rests with many more options than Finale has,
> > including the ability to add extra space for clef changes or force the
> > creation of multimeasure rests in places where Finale won't create them.
> >
> > 4. Maintain multiple sets of note spacing settings per measure region and
> > per part. Then a single invocation of the plugin spaces the music
> according
> > to those settings, taking into account the current part. Even better, by
> > means of a nifty trick that someone suggested on this list. the plugins
> can
> > get tighter spacing with ledger lines than Finale does.
> >
> > 5. Designate certain text expressions as titles (i.e., for movement
> titles)
> > or footnotes or headnotes. Then invoke a plugin than finds them in every
> > part and correctly positions them. This is *way* better workaround than
> > Finale's Page Titles for this kind of thing.
> >
> > 6. Mass align and move dynamics and hairpins. (TGTools Align/Move is
> > included in Finale but the version in the full TGTools is much more
> > powerful.)
> >
> > 7. Quickly repair common screwups in Finale, such as restoring lost note
> > spacing from a saved copy or moving expressions and endpoints that have
> > lost their notes due to Speedy edits.
> >
> > 8. With one simple menu click, start a new movement. That is, show full
> > names, indent the first system, restart the measure numbers from 1,
> twiddle
> > the measure bits in the current and preceding measure as needed. With one
> > menu click that has no dialog box.
> >
> > 9. Transfer page layout from one document to another and/or one part to
> > another and/or within a single document or part. Including (optionally)
> > system baselines for expressions and lyrics.
> >
> > 10. I recently discovered the JW Change plugin that can do so much that I
> > have only begun to digest all the ways in which I might use it.
> >
> > 11. TGTools has an option to proportionally expand or contract the staves
> > in a system. This saves me hours, especially on large multistaff scores
> > like orchestra scores. Then once you have that system perfectly fitted to
> > your margins, you can copy the staff layout to page after page and make
> > only minor tweaks thereafter.
> >
> > 12. Fix the focus problem with modeless plugin windows on Mac (Fin25.4
> and
> > higher).
> >
> > There are doubtless many, many others, but those come to mind right now.
> >
> > When I sit down to work on plugins, I try to think of every pain point in
> > using this beast of a program called Finale. Sometimes I note the pain
> > points as I work on a piece. Either way, after 20 years of this I am just
> > about out of ideas. I've addressed every pain point I can think of that a
> > plugin can address. There are a few that are intractable in current
> Finale,
> > but even for those I've tried to develop palliative workarounds. (Like
> > using expressions for movement titles.) Sometimes it takes years for me
> to
> > realize a plugin can even do something. Like for years I thought plugins
> > could not relink scores and parts, since linkage is not visible to
> plugins.
> > But then I thought of a way that works for most unlinkable items.

Re: [Finale] Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

[Robert Patterson]

Besides the Patterson Beams, TGTools, and JW plugins included in Finale, I
use 3rd party plugins to

1. Copy arbitrary combinations and patterns of expressions, dynamics,
articulations, and other elements in a repeated fashion, independent of
barlines, both vertically and horizontally.

2. Mass Relink, which can relink the score to the part's settings or vice
versa.

3. Autocreate multimeasure rests with many more options than Finale has,
including the ability to add extra space for clef changes or force the
creation of multimeasure rests in places where Finale won't create them.

4. Maintain multiple sets of note spacing settings per measure region and
per part. Then a single invocation of the plugin spaces the music according
to those settings, taking into account the current part. Even better, by
means of a nifty trick that someone suggested on this list. the plugins can
get tighter spacing with ledger lines than Finale does.

5. Designate certain text expressions as titles (i.e., for movement titles)
or footnotes or headnotes. Then invoke a plugin than finds them in every
part and correctly positions them. This is *way* better workaround than
Finale's Page Titles for this kind of thing.

6. Mass align and move dynamics and hairpins. (TGTools Align/Move is
included in Finale but the version in the full TGTools is much more
powerful.)

7. Quickly repair common screwups in Finale, such as restoring lost note
spacing from a saved copy or moving expressions and endpoints that have
lost their notes due to Speedy edits.

8. With one simple menu click, start a new movement. That is, show full
names, indent the first system, restart the measure numbers from 1, twiddle
the measure bits in the current and preceding measure as needed. With one
menu click that has no dialog box.

9. Transfer page layout from one document to another and/or one part to
another and/or within a single document or part. Including (optionally)
system baselines for expressions and lyrics.

10. I recently discovered the JW Change plugin that can do so much that I
have only begun to digest all the ways in which I might use it.

11. TGTools has an option to proportionally expand or contract the staves
in a system. This saves me hours, especially on large multistaff scores
like orchestra scores. Then once you have that system perfectly fitted to
your margins, you can copy the staff layout to page after page and make
only minor tweaks thereafter.

12. Fix the focus problem with modeless plugin windows on Mac (Fin25.4 and
higher).

There are doubtless many, many others, but those come to mind right now.

When I sit down to work on plugins, I try to think of every pain point in
using this beast of a program called Finale. Sometimes I note the pain
points as I work on a piece. Either way, after 20 years of this I am just
about out of ideas. I've addressed every pain point I can think of that a
plugin can address. There are a few that are intractable in current Finale,
but even for those I've tried to develop palliative workarounds. (Like
using expressions for movement titles.) Sometimes it takes years for me to
realize a plugin can even do something. Like for years I thought plugins
could not relink scores and parts, since linkage is not visible to plugins.
But then I thought of a way that works for most unlinkable items.

If you want to share your pain points, I'll tell you if there is a plugin
solution I use. Because there probably is. (Other than playback. I don't do
much with playback.)








On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 6:09 AM Lawrence David Eden 
wrote:

> This is an interesting discussion….I am interested in hearing what 3rd
> party plugins are you referring to, Robert.   I am always looking for ways
> to automate Finale.
>
> Larry Eden
>
> > On Jan 25, 2019, at 11:03 AM, Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
> >
> > I would be very interested to know more specifics about the things that
> are
> > "well beyond Fin/Sib". Graphically, I know about flexible slurs, and I
> > would be curious to know if lines (like 8va) also have multiple
> inflection
> > points.
> >
> > Beyond that, I would be curious to know what makes Dorico so much more
> > superior for part layout.
> >
> > Do you use any 3rd party plugins with Finale? In my experience, working
> > without key 3rd party plugins in Finale is the slag mines. But I've
> > developed a workflow using several key plugins that is very fast for many
> > of the things you mentioned. In fact, it is difficult to imagine them
> being
> > much faster.
> >
> > ymmv
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Craig Parmerlee 
> wrote:
> >
> >> I would also note Sibelius 2019 was announced this week.  It seems to be
> >> roughly the same magnitude of the Finale 26 release.  I am sure the
>

Re: [Finale] Fwd: Sale: Dorico Pro 2 and Dorico Elements 2

[Robert Patterson]

I would be very interested to know more specifics about the things that are
"well beyond Fin/Sib". Graphically, I know about flexible slurs, and I
would be curious to know if lines (like 8va) also have multiple inflection
points.

Beyond that, I would be curious to know what makes Dorico so much more
superior for part layout.

Do you use any 3rd party plugins with Finale? In my experience, working
without key 3rd party plugins in Finale is the slag mines. But I've
developed a workflow using several key plugins that is very fast for many
of the things you mentioned. In fact, it is difficult to imagine them being
much faster.

ymmv


On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Craig Parmerlee  wrote:

> I would also note Sibelius 2019 was announced this week.  It seems to be
> roughly the same magnitude of the Finale 26 release.  I am sure the
> improvements are welcome, but really, this is a minuscule amount of
> improvement for a paid release.  Dorico is adding capability 10-to-100
> times faster than either Finale or Sibelius.
>
> Dorico has a steep learning curve, and it is getting steeper all the
> time as layers of capability are added.  It still lacks a few things
> that the other programs have. For example, there is not yet any
> automatic way to have a single line in the score (e.g. FHorn 1&3) break
> out to separate parts for Fhorn 1 and FHorn 3.  And Dorico's automatic
> playback isn't as advanced as Finale Human Playback.  But Dorico already
> does some things that are well beyond Finale and Sibelius.  Moreover,
> the architecture is more elegant, particularly in the ability to lay out
> music intelligently in a minimum amount of time.  On the playback side,
> many people are using Note Performer with Dorico and claiming very good
> results.  I don't care that much.  The playback is good enough for what
> I do.
>
> I still have Finale 25 installed in case it is required for a
> collaboration, but I am doing all my new projects in Dorico now.  I find
> a typical project is taking about half as long with Dorico as I would
> have spent in Finale.  Much of that comes at the back end where I had to
> spend hours in final editing of part layouts.  With Dorico I typically
> spend about one minute per page for part layout -- sometimes no editing
> at all. But Dorico also provides big opportunities for time saving
> during the note entry and harmonization processes.
>
>
> On 1/22/2019 8:21 AM, David H. Bailey wrote:
> > Hello Finale and Sibelius Friends,
> >
> > I'm forwarding this message to both the Finale and Sibelius groups, in
> > case anybody is interested in exploring Dorico.  Using the code
> > DORICO30 you can get 30% off of either Dorico 2 or Dorico Elements 2
> > (a lighter version of Dorico) for this week only apparently.
> >
> > Both of those programs also have free demo versions you can download
> > and explore.
> >
> > I'm not trying to push it on anybody but I know some people might be
> > curious.  Version 2 brought many major improvements over version 1.
> >
> > I freely admit that I am still not very fluent in Dorico, knowing that
> > it will take me a lot of work to master it, but I also know there are
> > people in both Finale and Sibelius groups who have taken to Dorico and
> > are doing major projects in it.
> >
> > There is a forum at steinberg.net for people who want to get a sense
> > of how users are faring with the product.
> >
> > Dorico still uses their elicenser software or their extra-cost USB
> > dongle, so for people who are vehemently opposed to such anti-piracy
> > methods, nothing has changed and you probably won't want to explore
> > Dorico beyond the demo versions (I don't know if those have any
> > anti-piracy methods since they're freely distributed by Steinberg.)
> >
> > However, given the lack of forward motion in Sibelius and the lack of
> > substantive improvements in Finale beyond the automatic stacking of
> > articulations, Dorico may well be the future of professional level
> > computer notation software.
> >
> > Just wanted to let you all know,
> > David H. Bailey
>
>
> ---
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Re: [Finale] Changing grace note values

[Robert Patterson]

Okay I got JW Change to work:

1. Open the plugin and select Note Entries->Duration
2. Set Duration to 8th
3. In Filters, select Entries: Grace Notes and Durations to 16th.

That will (mostly) do what you want. It won't be limited just to singleton
grace notes, so you'll need to select and apply the plugin in chunks. But
it should be faster than hand-editing them all.


On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 9:24 AM Robert Patterson <
rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:

> If the main notes are not also eighth notes, you could use Change Note
> Values. It's not ideal, but it might be quicker than reentering the notes.
>
> There is a freeware plugin called JW Change that seems to offer what you
> want, but I couldn't get it to work in a quick trial.
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 8:48 AM Lee Dengler 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I am engraving a piece where the composer entered many single 16th note
>> grace notes.  I want to change them all to 8th note grace notes.  Is there
>> any quick way to do that without having to manually delete and reenter
>> them?
>> Thanks to anyone who can help.
>>
>> Lee Dengler
>>
>> leedeng...@comcast.net <mailto:leedeng...@comcast.net>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Finale] Changing grace note values

[Robert Patterson]

If the main notes are not also eighth notes, you could use Change Note
Values. It's not ideal, but it might be quicker than reentering the notes.

There is a freeware plugin called JW Change that seems to offer what you
want, but I couldn't get it to work in a quick trial.


On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 8:48 AM Lee Dengler  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I am engraving a piece where the composer entered many single 16th note
> grace notes.  I want to change them all to 8th note grace notes.  Is there
> any quick way to do that without having to manually delete and reenter
> them?
> Thanks to anyone who can help.
>
> Lee Dengler
>
> leedeng...@comcast.net 
>
>
>
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Re: [Finale] SOME IRRITATING BEHAVIORS

[Robert Patterson]

Tuplet Brackets

Document Options->Tuplets
Select "Always Use Specified Shape"

Grace Note Spacing

Document Options->Music Spacing
Select Grace Note Spacing Keep Current.
Also consider turning off Automatic Music Spacing in Preferences->Edit

Note-Attached Glissandos
Use "Tab-Slide Tool" instead of "Line Tool"
You can control line thickness and endpoint spacing relative to noteheads
as follows:
Line thickness is in Smart Shape->Smartshape Options
Endpoint positioning is in Smart Shape->Smart Shape Placement. (Choose "Tab
Slide" from the pulldown menu.)

All of these are document-level options, so I set them in my template file
to get them in any new project.


On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 10:49 AM dr.a.s. weinstangel 
wrote:

> I wonder if anyone would have some suggestions regarding the following
> behaviours:
>
> Win10 Fin26.0.1.655
>
> Document preferences->Tuplets set to show number and bracket.  The same in
> Tuplets definition submenu. The bracket does NOT show up, unless the group
> is broken into smaller chunks.
>
> There are lots of glissandos in the score. If using the line in Smart
> Shapes, it is often invisible, and does not remain attached to the notes it
> is supposed to connect. If using the wiggly (“bend”) shape, it is much
> better visually, but even harder to place properly, as it even reverts to
> vertical if the space between the notes is smaller.
>
> These glissandos often go to a grace note. It would be desirable to have a
> bit more space to show the glissando. Moving the notes manually is useless,
> as the notes will jump back together the moment the next bar is clicked on.
>
> Placing a dot on the note at the end of a slur moves the slur above the
> dot, which is not wanted. It takes a lot of fiddling to place the slur back
> where it belongs, and often it will revert to the other setting on its own.
>
> I know it all sounds like pretty small stuff, but multiplied by over 40
> staves it all adds up to becoming a major irritation! Thank you in advance
> for your help.
>
>
> Dr.A.S.Weinstangel
>
> sasha.weinstan...@utoronto.ca
> cel.647-292-4605
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Re: [Finale] Anyway to speed up how long it takes to load finale the 26? I am opening off a SSD

[Robert Patterson]

If you don't use plugins, you could move the plugins folder. Or better,
change the plugin folder (in Preferences) to an empty folder and see if
that helps.

On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 1:14 PM Jim Fischer  wrote:

> Really takes a long time to load version 26 any ideas?
> Gym
>
> :: j i m  f i s c h e r :: o n  i p a d
> :: p r o d u c e r ♫ ♪ ♫
> :: m u s i c  b o x  p r o d u c t i o n s
> :: v a n c o u v e r,  w a,  u s a
> :: www.jimfischer.net
> --
> :: mailto:j...@pacifier.com
> http://www.jimfischer.net
> <*(((><
>
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Re: [Finale] page layout

[Robert Patterson]

I do not see the behavior you describe with margins. It may be some setting
unique to your file. One thing to check is if Avoid Margin Collisions being
checked or unchecked makes a difference. I used New->Document Without
Libraries. Then I added 100 or so bars to it. Your margin editing procedure
worked fine for me for that file. (This is Mac Finale.)

Your way of working on part layout isn't that bad. Another tool you might
find useful is the Space Systems plugin. That is my tool of choice for part
layout. Ymmv.

I have not played much with the new Fin26 articulation features, but I'm
pretty sure it does not include expressions or hairpins. Articulations
(marked for it) stack automatically, and articulations have a setting to
avoid collision with slur endpoints.


On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 9:27 AM Dalvin Boone 
wrote:

> Windows 7, newest Finale:  My method to get rid of extra pages in parts - a
> page with one or two systems, for example - is by going to page layout,
> systems, edit systems.  On the first page, or a last page, I can click on
> "distance between systems" and enter "0" and expect the systems to move
> closer together and provide room for one or two systems on subsequent pages
> to move up to a previous page.  When I get the number of systems on all
> pages that I want, I can check "space systems evenly" and "keep same number
> of systems on pages."
>
>
>
> Now, with the new Finale, if I select systems (staves) 2 through 8, for
> example, and choose "0" distance between staves or choose to reduce the
> distance below staves, the staves/systems spread very far apart (instead of
> moving closer together).  Is this a new bug, or am I missing something?
>
>
>
> Also, I thought the new Finale would automatically stack expressions,
> dynamic markings and smart shapes and avoid collisions.  This certainly
> does
> not happen in generated parts.  Did I misunderstand the advertising?
>
>
>
> Dalvin Boone
>
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[Finale] Different spacing for score and parts

[Robert Patterson]

I don't normally post information about the Patterson Plugins Collection
here, but in this case I want to let the list know about a feature that I
added as a direct result of discussion here. In a thread from a few months
ago there was discussion of the need for different spacing in score and
parts.

The Collection includes a relatively new plugin called Note Spacing. This
plugin allows you to list different spacing options per region of the
document. I have just released a new version that allows you to create
multiple lists and assign one list to the score and others to as many parts
as you wish. This directly addresses the need for different settings for
parts.

Personally, I never directly invoke note spacing any more. (And I certainly
never enable Automatic Music Spacing.) I instead have the Note Spacing
plugin keyed to a keyboard macro with the default set not to open the
dialog box. I can then optionally open the dialog box to set up different
spacing options per region and per score/part.

For anyone interested in how the plugin works, it does so by invoking the
Finale Note Spacing menu option in chunks. First it changes the document's
music spacing options to whatever is in the list, then it selects the
applicable region, then invokes Finale's menu option. It repeats this
process until the end of the selected region and then restores the original
music spacing options and the original selected region. This approach
allows the plugin to space music exactly like Finale would because it does
not actually have to replicate the actual spacing logic.

Even if it is my own creation, I have to say this plugin works even more
seamlessly than I thought it would. If you start using it, you'll never go
back.
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Re: [Finale] Beaming 5/16 in One Group

[Robert Patterson]

Another way is to make the composite signature 1/16+16+16+16+16 with 5/16
as display.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 2:24 PM David Wolfson 
wrote:

> .625 /2 in the composite time signature box would give you what you want,
> with 5/16 for display.
>
> David Wolfson
> www.davidwolfsonmusic.net
>
> > On Oct 19, 2018, at 1:00 PM,  <
> finale-requ...@shsu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > . Beaming 5/16 in One Group
>
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Re: [Finale] Scoring Notes review of Finale 26

[Robert Patterson]

In my opinion, the most significant caveat of Fin26 is described by this
quote from Mark Adler:

"while you can update an old file to v26 and choose not to update
articulation positioning for those markings already in the document, Finale
does update the file to use the new positioning calculation to accommodate
your choice. Once you save the file, the new positioning data based on that
new frame of reference is saved — this is why the new positioning data is
not recognized when that file is subsequently opened in an older version.
We felt that it was in our users’ best interest to continue to allow
opening of v26 files in older versions even though articulation positioning
data is lost when moving a file backward.”

This choice by Makemusic means effectively that collaboration between
Finale 26 users and users of earlier versions of Finale is impossible. Yes,
you can open the files in the earlier versions, but all the articulation
placement is destroyed (even if you don't use the new features). To me, it
seems like a major step backwards. But perhaps there is less demand for
this kind of cross-version collaboration than I thought there was. (Though
if that's the case, I am puzzled that they went to so much trouble in
Finale 2012 thru Finale 25 to make it possible.)

I should add that it won't personally affect me. I'll be adopting Fin26 as
soon as I can. The new articulation features are a major improvement in my
view. And I speculate (without any inside knowledge at all) that they will
give us more in dot releases.


On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 5:23 AM David H. Bailey 
wrote:

> On 10/17/2018 11:54 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
> > This article presents more detail than I have seen elsewhere.
> >
> > https://www.scoringnotes.com/reviews/finale-26-review/
> >
> [snip]
>
> Very nice review, thank you for sharing it with us.  Its conclusions
> coincide with what I've observed in my first few days with the program.
>
> Nothing to make anybody jump to using Finale instead of either Sibelius
> or Dorico, but some nice improvements for those of us using Finale anyway.
>
> And the review does a very nice job of explaining some of the minutiae
> associated with the new articulation usage as well as other aspects of
> this upgrade.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> --
> *
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> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Finale 26 bug

[Robert Patterson]

I'm pretty sure Fin25 also has this behavior.

On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 12:26 PM Chuck Israels  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Please confirm: try to lasso repeat ending brackets and text in a part in
> order to nudge them up or down. My experience — nudged once and then lost
> its grip. Lassoed again — same thing. Once more and it wouldn’t highlight
> the handles at all.
>
> This is an annoyance, but more importantly, I was suckered in to an
> expensive upgrade for little benefit.
>
> Chuck
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Re: [Finale] Fin26 Observations

[Robert Patterson]

David Bailey said: "it stacks the articulations as it feels they ought to
be."

Actually, it stacks the articulations based on their order in the
Articulation Selection dialog box. If you want them to stack in a different
order, you can change their order in the list and they will automatically
stack in the new order. This may or may not be behavior that is desirable,
but it can be exploited if you understand it.


On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:11 PM David H. Bailey 
wrote:

> Fin25 / Fin26, you say potatoes, I say potahtoes.  Not much difference
> that I can see.
>
> I just tried a quick experiment to see how wonderful the new automatic
> placement feature for slurs and other articulations works, and I have to
> say that it does what it claims to, although hardly the big deal around
> which to build a whole-number upgrade.
>
> Yes that does make multiple articulations much neater by default.  But
> it stacks the articulations as it feels they ought to be.  If we want
> them stacked differently we still have to drag them as we've had to do
> in all previous versions of Finale.
>
> Looking at the list of what's new in Fin26, there is the comment:
> "Palette. The Simple Entry Rests Palette is now one of the default
> palettes displayed when launching Finale."  -- Did anybody really suffer
> from having to actually manually have the Simple Entry Rests Palette
> display whenever Simple Entry mode is used, or setting Finale to have it
> display all the time if we so wished?  Hardly worth a whole-number upgrade!
>
> "...the return of the Maestro font Lead Sheet template" -- so putting
> something *back* which should never have been removed in the first place
> is something we have to pay for?  Especially aggravating, given that we
> had to pay for the upgrade where they removed it in the first place!
>
> No, I see nothing making this a worthwhile upgrade for anybody who is on
> Finale12, 14, 14.5 and definitely not worth the price for someone
> working in Finale25.  If a person is on a much earlier version of Finale
> then this will offer a lot of improvements, but beware, some
> long-standing bugs (read Giz's message) are still there
>
> Unless the articulations were driving you batty, in which case you may
> feel it's worth the $150 upgrade fee.  I'm with Giz Bowe on this -- it's
> the last upgrade for Finale I'll be buying until they do major
> improvements to the program.  I notice that they don't appear to address
> the numerous complaints about the linked score/parts and what is linked
> and what is unlinked.
>
> Gone are the days of the mind-blowing, new-feature-rich upgrades of the
> past, where we could suddenly do something that previously had been
> impossible or at least very difficult.
>
>
>
> --
> *
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Finale 26 -- Opinions?

[Robert Patterson]

The main enhancements are stacked articulations and automatic stem length
for tremolos. Beyond these I am hoping that Finale 26 will include further
enhancements in dot releases. We'll see.

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:27 PM David H. Bailey 
wrote:

> On 10/10/2018 3:54 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
> > It officially launched today at an upgrade price of $150.
> >
> > It seems that the upgrade mainly consists of a few improvements to
> > collision avoidance.  Perhaps there is much more than immediately meets
> > the eye, but this seems like a rather thin upgrade for $150.
> >
> > I may upgrade, but I have been doing most of my work in Dorico lately,
> > which already does 10x more automatic collision avoidance than Finale.
> >
> > I'd appreciate hearing about any experience from people doing upgrades
> > or using the demo version.
> >
> >
>
> My first observation -- it takes a heck of a long time to install the
> install program!  Now it's finally ready to actually run the
> installation program.  Sheesh!
>
>
> --
> *
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] orch score part naming

[Robert Patterson]

Part names are not in any way tied to staff names. You can name the staves
and/or groups one thing and the parts another.

On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 1:32 PM, David Froom  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I suddenly (Finale 25, Mac) am stumped with having score staff names
> appear as numbers with a single group name, for example:
>
> 1
> Flute
> 2
>
> I can do this by making the group name show, removing flute and fl from
> the staff names (leaving them blank), and turning on automatic numbering in
> the score manager. However, this messes up the parts.
>
> How do I have the score show as above, and then have the part names show
> as
>
> Flute 1
> and
> Flute 2
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
> David Froom
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[Finale] OT: Katherine Hoover (1937-2018)

[Robert Patterson]

Hello List,

The composer Katherine Hoover was a long-time lurker on this list and
occasionally posted. She passed a way a few days ago. For anyone who's
interested, here is an obituary

.
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Re: [Finale] Major problems with win2014 file opened in 25

[Robert Patterson]

Google turns this up:

https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/218050767-Installing-font-annotation-files-for-third-party-fonts

On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Raymond Horton 
wrote:

> Pablo's suggestion did not help. In private messages, Henry Howey suggested
> I switch music fonts. I switched from Maestro to Engraver - notes and stems
> are again as they should be. but I have no solution for the slurs and ties
> floating way above the staff.
> Once again, thanks for any suggestions. I still would like advice on where
> to find the fan files.
>
> ​Raymond Horton
> Composer, Arranger
> Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church
> Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016
> Visit us at rayhortonmusic.com
>
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018, 3:51 PM Raymond Horton 
> wrote:
>
> > Thank you, Pablo. I will try that.
> >
> > I do have more problems than just the slurs, though. In several files,
> not
> > just imported old ones, the note front is fouled up, with the stem well
> to
> > the right of the note head all in all of the stems up notes. Very strange
> > looking!
> >
> > Thank you for all offered help, everybody!
> >
> > ​Raymond Horton
> > Composer, Arranger
> > Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church
> > Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016
> > Visit us at rayhortonmusic.com
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018, 1:07 PM Paolo Alberto Rismondo <
> > prismo...@aliceposta.it> wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Raymond,
> >>
> >> I haven't recent versions of Finale installed on my PC (and no copy of
> >> Finale at all in this PC indeed, that's why I can't be more specific),
> >> but in the conversion of files from Finale 'old versions' to the new one
> >> that problem occured fairly often: if I remember well, a good solution
> >> is as follows: go to the 'Smart Shape' menu, then to ‘Smart Slur
> >> options’ and check/uncheck 'Use Engraver slurs' option.
> >>
> >> Hoping that it can help.
> >>
> >> all best,
> >>
> >> Paolo A. Rismondo
> >>
> >> Il 01/09/2018 04:52, Raymond Horton ha scritto:
> >>
> >> > Help! I have a few files that I was working on in Finale 25 windows,
> and
> >> > for a variety of reasons, had to work on them on another computer with
> >> > fin2014 windows. They appeared to save in 2014 with no problem, but
> >> > when I
> >> > got them back to my main computer and open them in Windows finale 25,
> I
> >> > have major problems: mostly, all of the slurs appear well above the
> >> > staff.
> >> >
> >> > My main computer was having its hard drive copied and restored as part
> >> > of a
> >> > repair, and now I have to reinstall the programs I will be working
> >> > with. I
> >> > suppose I could reinstall 2014 on this computer, but it would be nice
> >> > if I
> >> > could avoid that. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!
> >> >
> >> > ​Raymond Horton
> >> > Composer, Arranger
> >> > Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church
> >> > Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016
> >> > Visit us at rayhortonmusic.com
> >> > ___
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> >> >
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---
> >> Questa email è stata esaminata alla ricerca di virus da AVG.
> >> http://www.avg.com
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Re: [Finale] Major problems with win2014 file opened in 25

[Robert Patterson]

I second what Dennis said. Make sure both version are using the same
(Fin25) fan file(s) for your symbol fonts.

On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 9:58 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz <
bath...@maltedmedia.com> wrote:

> On Fri, August 31, 2018 10:52 pm, Raymond Horton wrote:
> > Help! I have a few files that I was working on in Finale 25 windows, and
> > for a variety of reasons, had to work on them on another computer with
> > fin2014 windows. They appeared to save in 2014 with no problem, but when
> I
> > got them back to my main computer and open them in Windows finale 25, I
> > have major problems: mostly, all of the slurs appear well above the
> staff.
>
> Do you have a FAN file for the music font? I've had that happen with an
> updated font of the one appearing in an old file. Just a thought.
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
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Re: [Finale] Fonts

[Robert Patterson]

This is a problem with Adope Type 3 Postscript Fonts. (A font format from
the 1980s.) You may be able to fix the problem by first saving the file in
Fin14.5 or Fin14d. Otherwise you will have to find otf alternatives.

On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:24 AM, Eric Dannewitz 
wrote:

> Sounds like you are missing a font.
>
> Sent from my iSomething
> --
>
>
> > On Aug 31, 2018, at 6:17 AM, Lawrence David Eden 
> wrote:
> >
> > I recently used Finale 25 to open a file that was created with Finale
> Mac 2K7.
> > Text instructions that I used in the file are now displaying as a series
> of  boxes with a  "?"   in the middle of each box.
> >
> > Am I correct in thinking that I have a font issue?
> >
> > How can I get these expressions to display correctly in Finale 25?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Larry Eden
> > ___
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Re: [Finale] QUARTER TONE TRANSPOSITION

[Robert Patterson]

A google search turns up this:

http://wardbaxter.com/education/QuarterTones_Finale.php

On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 10:53 AM, dr.a.s. weinstangel 
wrote:

> Is it possible to get a quarter tone higher or lower playback for
> scordatura string parts?
>
>
> Thank you for your help!
>
>
> Dr.A.S.Weinstangel
>
> sasha.weinstan...@utoronto.ca
> cel.647-292-4605
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Re: [Finale] FINMAC - iKey?

[Robert Patterson]

It's called yKey  now and has been
updated for 10.13. I replaced OX9 Quickeys with this. I believe there is
now an OSX Quickeys, so it may be a better choice for you. But yKey does
everything I need it to.


On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Simon Troup <
simon.tr...@digitalmusicart.com> wrote:

> Why do you need to replace quickeys, it works great.
>
>
> --
>
> Simon Troup | BA Hons (Mus)
>
> http://www.digitalmusicart.com
>
> Partners: Simon Troup & Jennie Troup
> VAT Registration: 982 4230 17
>
> *"If you can twang it, we can engrave it. Seriously, we can. No...
> really!"*
>
> *This email is a private communication between the sender and the intended
> recipient. If you received this email in error be advised that all content,
> information and files contained in the message remain copyright of the
> author, artist or original copyright holder and may not be used without
> permission.*
>
> On 28 July 2018 at 21:36, GERALD BERG  wrote:
>
> > Hello all
> > Was it iKey that was the best replacement for the old Quickkeys program?
> > TIA
> > Jerry
> > GJB
> >
> >
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Re: [Finale] FinMac 2014.5 CUES!

[Robert Patterson]

Honestly, I think linked parts are very close to be good enough. What's
lacking is

1. Unlinkable mid-measure clef positioning
2. Unlinkable vertical rest positioning
3. Special Tools for voice parts

I haven't used voice parts enough (at all) to know what else may be lacking
there. Cues are still a PITA no matter what, even in a separate parts file.
But with the items listed above I think I could probably get by with just
the two types of staff styles I described and never have to resort to phony
expressions.


On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 2:57 PM, David Froom  wrote:

> Robert,
>
> Thank you!! This really solves my problems (as this score is large
> chamber music piece, no staves with two to a part). This note is a
> keeper!!! I KNEW there had to be a way!
>
> Sure would be nice if, after all these years of linked parts, Finale would
> fix this. The Dorico competition on parts/cues is pretty impressive —
> though they haven’t yet solved the two to a staff issue (and they have some
> other half-baked things that prevent me from switching). They say they are
> working on it. Let’s hope the fact that there is competition will jump
> start some serious addressing of long-standing problems.
>
> Best,
> David
>
> > On 25 Jul 2018, at 1:00 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> >
> > David,
> >
> > I switched to having a single document for score and parts several years
> > ago. It requires a little more time, but I think it is worth it. To
> address
> > the issues you raised:
> >
> > 1. Do not use "Blank notation with rests: Layer 4". This staff style can
> > occasionally be useful for partial measures (often for measures that
> have a
> > cue overlapping with a pickup note). But otherwise it isn't an ideal
> > choice. Instead create a new staff style of Blank Notation with Rests for
> > Layer 1. Then uncheck everything in "Other Layers: Show". In my files I
> > name this staff style "Hide Cues".
> >
> > 2. For clef changes you'll need to create a separate staff style with the
> > same transposition as the score (or lack thereof) but with a forced clef
> to
> > the clef you want in the score. You then apply that as needed in the
> score.
> > In my files I give them names like "Force Bass Clef" or "Force F Treble
> > Clef" (if it were for a transposed horn staff).
> >
> > There are still occasional edge cases where even these two techniques
> > aren't sufficient and you have to resort to using expressions for either
> > rests or clefs. Often you can simply opt for a different cue. But me
> being
> > me, I sometimes soldier through with expressions when there is a
> > complicated cue I think is really important.
> >
> > Another way to hide clef changes in the score is with a "Hide Clefs"
> staff
> > style. This is often a perfectly acceptable alternative to a forced
> > transposition clef, if the cue is entirely contained on a single score
> > system. There are occasionally situations where this is preferable to
> > forced transposition clefs. (Since forced transposition clefs must be
> > applied to full measure whereas hide clefs can be applied to a partial
> > measure.)
> >
> > Christopher Smith is correct about voiced parts. They are not usable, and
> > not just because of the problems with cues. Their inability to be edited
> > with Special Tools is an unacceptable limitation by itself. Thus for
> large
> > orchestra scores I continue to maintain two files, but with a difference.
> > The staves that do not split into multiple parts (frequently Timpani on
> > down) reside with the score. The parts that do split (e..g, winds and
> > brass) reside in a separate "distributed parts" file. Each file has *only
> > those parts* defined. That is, the score file contains a Violin I part
> > while the distributed-parts file does not. The distributed parts file
> > contains a Clarinet 1 part but the score file does not. Of course both
> > files have a score since there is no avoiding that. I ignore the score in
> > the distributed parts file, except as a means for editing multiple
> > distributed parts at once.
> >
> > Finally there are occasionally situations where a cue that shows in one
> > part can cause another part not to create a multimeaure rest as you would
> > like. It is for this that I created the Force option in my multimeasure
> > rest plugin. The Force option places a multimeasure rest exactly where
> you
> > select, without regard to anything that might break it otherwise. (So use
> > with caution!)
> >
> > Robert
>
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Re: [Finale] FinMac 2014.5 CUES!

[Robert Patterson]

David,

I switched to having a single document for score and parts several years
ago. It requires a little more time, but I think it is worth it. To address
the issues you raised:

1. Do not use "Blank notation with rests: Layer 4". This staff style can
occasionally be useful for partial measures (often for measures that have a
cue overlapping with a pickup note). But otherwise it isn't an ideal
choice. Instead create a new staff style of Blank Notation with Rests for
Layer 1. Then uncheck everything in "Other Layers: Show". In my files I
name this staff style "Hide Cues".

2. For clef changes you'll need to create a separate staff style with the
same transposition as the score (or lack thereof) but with a forced clef to
the clef you want in the score. You then apply that as needed in the score.
In my files I give them names like "Force Bass Clef" or "Force F Treble
Clef" (if it were for a transposed horn staff).

There are still occasional edge cases where even these two techniques
aren't sufficient and you have to resort to using expressions for either
rests or clefs. Often you can simply opt for a different cue. But me being
me, I sometimes soldier through with expressions when there is a
complicated cue I think is really important.

Another way to hide clef changes in the score is with a "Hide Clefs" staff
style. This is often a perfectly acceptable alternative to a forced
transposition clef, if the cue is entirely contained on a single score
system. There are occasionally situations where this is preferable to
forced transposition clefs. (Since forced transposition clefs must be
applied to full measure whereas hide clefs can be applied to a partial
measure.)

Christopher Smith is correct about voiced parts. They are not usable, and
not just because of the problems with cues. Their inability to be edited
with Special Tools is an unacceptable limitation by itself. Thus for large
orchestra scores I continue to maintain two files, but with a difference.
The staves that do not split into multiple parts (frequently Timpani on
down) reside with the score. The parts that do split (e..g, winds and
brass) reside in a separate "distributed parts" file. Each file has *only
those parts* defined. That is, the score file contains a Violin I part
while the distributed-parts file does not. The distributed parts file
contains a Clarinet 1 part but the score file does not. Of course both
files have a score since there is no avoiding that. I ignore the score in
the distributed parts file, except as a means for editing multiple
distributed parts at once.

Finally there are occasionally situations where a cue that shows in one
part can cause another part not to create a multimeaure rest as you would
like. It is for this that I created the Force option in my multimeasure
rest plugin. The Force option places a multimeasure rest exactly where you
select, without regard to anything that might break it otherwise. (So use
with caution!)

Robert




On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 7:51 AM, Christopher Smith <
christopher.sm...@videotron.ca> wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> Short answer: no.
>
> These are all valid problems with having the same parts and score file. It
> gets even worse if you ever have two instruments on the same score staff,
> but separated (voiced) linked parts. Cues break completely in that case,
> along with some other things. The amount of kludges involved in getting
> something simple, like a clef or whole rest, different from the score and
> parts is monumental. A graphic whole rest can be done with the default
> whole rest hidden, but that has to be hidden manually in the score. It all
> piles up.
>
> I think having different score file and one other file for all the parts
> is by far the best solution. Frequent incremental backups are the solution
> to the overwrite bug. I incrementally change the number on the filename
> “Symphony 001.musx” then Symphony 002.musx” etc.
>
> Christopher
>
>
> > On Jul 25, 2018, at 8:36 AM, David Froom  wrote:
> >
> > Hello all,
> > I’m hoping for some wisdom from the group.
> >
> > I’ve been in the habit of having a score file separate from a parts file
> — basically, to get the score looking great, then make a copy of it to make
> parts so as not to have to deal with things that conflict. The downside is
> that errors I discover in the parts aren’t fixed automatically — and I fear
> having two files open, having been bitten by the “overwrite” bug!
> >
> > I decided, however, in my current project, to try having just one file.
> >
> > I am using TG Tools to create the cues. That puts the cue into layer 4
> and a forced whole rest (no matter the meter) into layer 1.  Then, in the
> score, I apply the staff style called “Blank notation with rests: Layer 4.”
> Conveniently, it is triggered with the keyboard shortcut “Q,” so I assume
> this was created for use with cues.
> >
> > I’ve run into two problems. One is if the cue has a different clef from
> the prevailing part. So, in the staff 

Re: [Finale] Unusual Notation Question

[Robert Patterson]

> but in the scan no "div." is indicated.

It is not customary to mark wind/brass parts divisi, since they are always
one-on-a-part anyway.


On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:56 AM, SN jef chippewa <
shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote:

>
> i would say that is also a possibility, top line left measure has (on all
> 3 beats) A-Bb on left part of split stem, Bnat-C on right.  but in the scan
> no "div." is indicated.  3rd measure 3rd beat has 5 notes (B to Eb) with 3
> stems for sure, possibly 4, maybe even 5 (very faint, hard to tell).
>
> Is it not just divisi notes in clusters? (I can barely see the scan.)
>>
>>  I would have to agree. The forked stems mean all the notes sound at the
>>>  same time (just like a chord), while the 6 underneath and the beams mean
>>>
>>  > sextuplet tremolos. Must be a number of players on that staff.
>>
>
> --
>
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>
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Re: [Finale] Unusual Notation Question

[Robert Patterson]

Is it not just divisi notes in clusters? (I can barely see the scan.)

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:27 AM, Christopher Smith <
christopher.sm...@videotron.ca> wrote:

> I would have to agree. The forked stems mean all the notes sound at the
> same time (just like a chord), while the 6 underneath and the beams mean
> sextuplet tremolos. Must be a number of players on that staff.
>
> Christopher
>
> > On Fri Jul 20, at FridayJul 20 12:25 PM, SN jef chippewa <
> shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > top line sextuplet tremoli on clusters, others tied clusters, seems to me
> >
> > --
> >
> > neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
> > http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html
> >
> > shirling & neueweise  |  http://newmusicnotation.com
> > new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
> > [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise
> >
> > ___
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Re: [Finale] Dorico 2

[Robert Patterson]

I mean, Finale is capable of producing all the results shown in the "Smart
Staff Management" video. But the U.I. for doing it can be quite laborious.


On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 9:26 AM, Will Roberts 
wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> Sure, I found it here:
>
> https://www.dorico.com/new-in-2/
>
> Looks like it's on YouTube here:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp8qDzPA77A
>
> I also saw some worked-through examples in the review on Scoring Notes.com.
>
> I'm right in saying that Finale has nothing like this, right? Or did I
> miss the memo?
>
> Best,
> -WR
>
> --
>   Will Roberts
>   whrcompo...@fastmail.fm
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2018, at 7:01 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> > Could you send a link to the demo? I would be interested in seeing how
> > sting divisi are handled.
> >
> > On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 5:11 AM, Will Roberts 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Did anybody else get an email from Steinberg yesterday about the new
> > > version of Dorico? I tried the first version out about a year ago but
> > > didn't buy it at the time. Interested to check it out again now.
> > >
> > > The main new features are for composing to picture and playback
> > > automation, which doesn't interest me, but it looks like the slashes
> and
> > > ditto bars are pretty neat. For me the thing that looks really
> interesting
> > > is the way string divisi is handled – I would love to have a tool like
> that
> > > in Finale. Maybe it's already possible and I'm just too dumb to figure
> it
> > > out!
> > >
> > > No trial version yet, though, so I can't see if it works as well as the
> > > demos make it look!
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > -WR
> > >
> > > --
> > >   Will Roberts
> > >   whrcompo...@fastmail.fm
> > >
> > > ___
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> > >
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Re: [Finale] Dorico 2

[Robert Patterson]

Could you send a link to the demo? I would be interested in seeing how
sting divisi are handled.

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 5:11 AM, Will Roberts 
wrote:

> Did anybody else get an email from Steinberg yesterday about the new
> version of Dorico? I tried the first version out about a year ago but
> didn't buy it at the time. Interested to check it out again now.
>
> The main new features are for composing to picture and playback
> automation, which doesn't interest me, but it looks like the slashes and
> ditto bars are pretty neat. For me the thing that looks really interesting
> is the way string divisi is handled – I would love to have a tool like that
> in Finale. Maybe it's already possible and I'm just too dumb to figure it
> out!
>
> No trial version yet, though, so I can't see if it works as well as the
> demos make it look!
>
> Best,
> -WR
>
> --
>   Will Roberts
>   whrcompo...@fastmail.fm
>
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Re: [Finale] Score and Parts

[Robert Patterson]

Larry,

You can use the File->Print dialog to print score, parts, or any
combination thereof. The Finale 25 print dialog is far from perfect but it
is usable.

Your title problem sounds like it could be file corruption. Do you see the
problem when you open the file fresh immediately after starting Finale?

For showing file names on parts, I suggest turning the global setting "Show
Name in Parts" off. Then apply a staff style to the first bar to turn it on
for the first bar.

Robert


On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 7:07 AM, Lawrence David Eden 
wrote:

> Finale 25
> Max OS 10.13.4
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> I am still confused about how to get my parts to the printer.  When I used
> Finale 2011, I printed my parts directly from the “Edit Parts” menu and it
> worked fine.  In Finale 25, this does not work.
> What is the correct procedure for getting my score divided into parts and
> sent to the printer?  Are we back to extracting parts or should “generate
> parts” give me a printer ready document?
>
> Another Question:  I noticed that titles from previous arrangements are
> finding their way into new pieces.  For example:  I arranged a "Trumpet
> Voluntary."  I closed this document then opened a different arrangement and
> the title showed up on my new piece as “Trumpet Voluntary.”  Is there a fix
> that I am overlooking?
>
>
> Final Question:  every staff in my parts has the abbreviated instrument
> name in the margin.  While I want the instrument name on each part, I only
> need it to appear once.  I am looking for a global fix.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance for any light you Finale mavins can shed.
>
> Larry Eden
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[Finale] Plugin Menu in Fin25 macOS 10.13

[Robert Patterson]

Hello Listers,

Ever since I upgrade my macOS to 10.13 a few weeks ago, my plugin menu is
no longer in alpa order. It is jumbled up. Everything that's supposed to be
there is there, but it's in no discernible order. Has anyone else seen
this? If so, is there a fix?
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Re: [Finale] printing advice

[Robert Patterson]

Yes, if you only need to go up to 11x17, you have lots of options. The
printers I looked at had to go to 12x18 and 13x20 would have been beter.

On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 8:32 AM, David H. Bailey <dhbaile...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> On 4/29/2018 8:20 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>
>> If you are offset-printing books, 600dpi is probably not good enough. But
>> I
>> never print books. Any printer that would offset books from my work almost
>> certainly would do it from a PDF. FWIW: the only situation I can spot the
>> difference is on hairpins.
>>
>> I did not consider ink jet printers. They are far too slow. There is a
>> Brother inkjet that will actually feed 13" wide sheets, but each page
>> takes
>> several minutes.
>>
>>
> My Epson WorkForce WF-7620 doesn't take that long.  It's an inkjet printer
> which printes beautiful output, it can handle 11x17 paper with no problems,
> it duplexes automatically, it scans up to tabloid size. And it's only
> around $200 if you're lucky enough to find it on sale at Staples or Office
> Depot.  I've been using mine for 3 years now and it's great.  Advances in
> ink technology have helped a lot -- once dry the ink won't run if a few
> water drops get on it and get wiped off.
>
>
> --
> *
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
>
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Re: [Finale] printing advice

[Robert Patterson]

If you are offset-printing books, 600dpi is probably not good enough. But I
never print books. Any printer that would offset books from my work almost
certainly would do it from a PDF. FWIW: the only situation I can spot the
difference is on hairpins.

I did not consider ink jet printers. They are far too slow. There is a
Brother inkjet that will actually feed 13" wide sheets, but each page takes
several minutes.


On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 3:45 AM, Eric Dannewitz <ericd...@jazz-sax.com>
wrote:

> Ugh, why not just buy a new printer
>
> https://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-laserjet-pro-m203dw-printer
>
> 1200 dpi and can be bought for $120 or so. Probably would save on
> electricity bills compared to that tank 5000 printer
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Apr 28, 2018, at 7:52 AM, Williams, Jim <
> jwilli...@franklincollege.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Isn’t the 5000 a 1200 dpi printer? I bought two of them for $25, mixed &
> matched parts, replaced one separator pad and got a workhorse. I could
> swear it’s 1200 dpi...
> > Does anyone have trouble with the duplexer jamming? If so, is there a
> good fix?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all the typos.
> >
> >> On Apr 28, 2018, at 10:10 AM, Chuck Israels <cisra...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> And I forgot another thing: there is a way (in the menus on the printer
> settings) to have the printer print a page that has its IP address (it
> sometimes randomly generates a new one). Don’t remember where that is, but
> there is printer setting that prints out a page with "Printer
> Information”.  I keep a copy of the IP address it prints out taped to the
> side of the printer so I can tell the Mac where it is, if it doesn’t find
> it automatically.
> >>
> >> Every time something like this happens and I think I need a new
> printer, a cure turns up and the HP 5000N soldiers on.
> >>
> >> For B large format — others have recommended a Ricoh model, but I am
> still using the HP.
> >>
> >> Chuck
> >>
> >>> On Apr 28, 2018, at 6:57 AM, Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I think Chuck's suggestion of dropping and re-adding the printer is the
> >>> right first step. It looks like HP has stopped supporting the 5000. If
> >>> dropping and re-adding it doesn't work (as Chuck suggested), I have
> some
> >>> further suggestions.
> >>>
> >>> 1) Download the appropriate driver from the hp website and reinstall
> it. It
> >>> looks like your driver may not have been updated since macOS 10.6. But
> it
> >>> still might work.
> >>>
> >>> 2) Create a virtual machine of a lower macOS version and print from
> there.
> >>> I did this for years with my previous large-format printer, which
> ceased to
> >>> function correctly starting with Mavericks. Considering my usage
> patterns,
> >>> for me it was not a noticeable hardship to start up the virtual for a
> print
> >>> job.
> >>>
> >>> 3) If you are in the mood for a new printer, I just bought a HP Color
> >>> Laserjet CP5225 that I am very happy with. With the manual feeder I
> can go
> >>> as large as 12.5"x18.5". (The tray goes up to 11x17.) It is not
> super-fast,
> >>> but the results are so much better than my previous printer which had
> been
> >>> slowly dying for a number of years. (And it isn't any slower than that
> one
> >>> was.) Plus it does color! It's not great for photo printing, but for
> adding
> >>> color accents to a document it is perfect. It is larger and heavier
> than I
> >>> would like. If I live long enough to replace it, I probably won't try
> to
> >>> move it again by myself. It really needs two people to lift it safely.
> >>>
> >>> Final note: if you order a CP5225, make sure you get the one that has
> an
> >>> automatic duplexer. You have to manually duplex oversize (larger than
> >>> 11x17) sheets, but it is very handy for 11x17 and smaller, and it adds
> >>> almost no additional cost.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 8:25 AM, dfr...@smcm.edu <dfr...@smcm.edu>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello all,
> >>>> I’ve been using an HP5000 printer for a very long time. It still works
> >>>> great. I installed a card that allowed it to print via ethernet (so,
> in
> >>>> essence, it i

Re: [Finale] printing advice

[Robert Patterson]

When I decided on the CP5225 I also looked at one of the large monochrome
laser printer. (It was HP M-something, probably essentially the same as
Lee's.) I ultimately chose the CP5225 because

1) the CP5225 was about $1000 cheaper
2) the CP5225 does color, which has uses for me outside music
3) HP may be discontinuing those big monochrome lasers. The one I found
seemed like it was left-over inventory.
4) The HP M is significantly larger and heavier. I would have had trouble
fitting it where it has to go, even with a helper. This was probably the
deciding factor for me.

What I gave up was
1) 1200dpi. (The CP5225 only does 600.)
2) A tray with 12x18 capacity. (But I can still hand-feed 12x18.)

So far I am quite pleased with the performance. I also find the duplexer to
be completely reliable. My previous printer was 1200dpi and could feed up
to 13x20. It was dissatisfying to give those up, but I'm still very happy
with the results I am getting.


On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Lee Actor <l...@leeactor.com> wrote:

> I've had an HP5000 since 2001 and have printed much music with it.  Years
> ago I tried the duplexer for it, but found it to be unreliable, at least
> with the heavyweight paper I use.
>
> I kept my eye on the large format laser printer market for a long time,
> and 2+ years ago finally bit the bullet and bought a HP M712DN (1200dpi) at
> a huge discount.  This machine has been an absolute dream.  The duplexer is
> 100% reliable; I have never had a paper jam or misfeed the entire time I've
> owned it.  I use it exclusively to print music, and keep heavyweight letter
> and 11x17 paper in its two paper trays.  It's 4-5x faster than the LJ5000,
> and has saved me innumerable hours printing orchestral parts and scores.
> With the HP5000 I had to manually feed the flip side of duplexed pages to
> avoid paper jams, requiring my constant attention throughout a large print
> job; but with the M712DN I can send it as many print jobs as needed and
> immediately get back to what I was doing, letting the printer churn away
> until it's done.  There's still the folding/stapling/trimming/binding
> etc. to produce finished sheet music, but my time involved with the actual
> printing has been reduced by as much as 95%.
>
> The main downside to the M712DN is that it is quite large, and weighs 85
> lbs.; definitely a 2-person job to pick it up and move it around.  But it's
> the biggest productivity enhancement I've encountered since engraving
> software.
>
> -Lee
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Finale [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of dfr...@smcm.edu
> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2018 11:56 AM
> To: <finale@shsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Finale] printing advice
>
> Dear Chuck and Robert,
>
> Thank you! All I needed to do was to ask the printer preferences to find
> and add the HP5000 printer again (IP address from the printer’s info page).
> I should have figured this out on my own. For some reason, this was vastly
> easier than the initial time I was forced to print over IP (at the point
> when appletalk disappeared from macs). And that first IP connection has
> survived through at least 3 machine and many system upgrades.
>
> What a great machine! Still going after all these years. 1200 dpi, or 600
> dpi at super speed, long-lasting printer cartridges (shockingly, still
> available as OEM). Granted, I don’t use it very heavily, but still, it is,
> by far, the oldest technology in my house. 25 years old sounds about right.
>
> David
>
> Chuck Israels wrote:
> > Dear David,
> >
> > This is exactly the setup I have (iMac - not Macbook) ? the printer must
> be 25 years old!
> >
> > In my case, this has happened and removing the printer and adding it
> again in the System Preferences/printer setup has solved the problem. I
> think the Mac loses th IP address and sometimes generates another new one.
> I don?t think it has to do with the particular OS you are using.
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >> On Apr 28, 2018, at 6:25 AM, dfr...@smcm.edu wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello all,
> >> I?ve been using an HP5000 printer for a very long time. It still works
> great. I installed a card that allowed it to print via ethernet (so, in
> essence, it is a HP5000N). It is a 600dpi, large-format, laser printer.
> >>
> >> I use a MacBook, running Sierra (not High Sierra). Suddenly, with the
> last system upgrade from Apple (to 10.12.6), the printer is no longer found.
> >>
> >> Is anyone on the list using a setup similar to mine, who experienced
> the same problem and has a solution?
> >>
> >> Or, perhaps, could someone make recommendations for a reliable printer
> that can 

Re: [Finale] printing advice

[Robert Patterson]

I think Chuck's suggestion of dropping and re-adding the printer is the
right first step. It looks like HP has stopped supporting the 5000. If
dropping and re-adding it doesn't work (as Chuck suggested), I have some
further suggestions.

1) Download the appropriate driver from the hp website and reinstall it. It
looks like your driver may not have been updated since macOS 10.6. But it
still might work.

2) Create a virtual machine of a lower macOS version and print from there.
I did this for years with my previous large-format printer, which ceased to
function correctly starting with Mavericks. Considering my usage patterns,
for me it was not a noticeable hardship to start up the virtual for a print
job.

3) If you are in the mood for a new printer, I just bought a HP Color
Laserjet CP5225 that I am very happy with. With the manual feeder I can go
as large as 12.5"x18.5". (The tray goes up to 11x17.) It is not super-fast,
but the results are so much better than my previous printer which had been
slowly dying for a number of years. (And it isn't any slower than that one
was.) Plus it does color! It's not great for photo printing, but for adding
color accents to a document it is perfect. It is larger and heavier than I
would like. If I live long enough to replace it, I probably won't try to
move it again by myself. It really needs two people to lift it safely.

Final note: if you order a CP5225, make sure you get the one that has an
automatic duplexer. You have to manually duplex oversize (larger than
11x17) sheets, but it is very handy for 11x17 and smaller, and it adds
almost no additional cost.


On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 8:25 AM, dfr...@smcm.edu  wrote:

> Hello all,
> I’ve been using an HP5000 printer for a very long time. It still works
> great. I installed a card that allowed it to print via ethernet (so, in
> essence, it is a HP5000N). It is a 600dpi, large-format, laser printer.
>
> I use a MacBook, running Sierra (not High Sierra). Suddenly, with the last
> system upgrade from Apple (to 10.12.6), the printer is no longer found.
>
> Is anyone on the list using a setup similar to mine, who experienced the
> same problem and has a solution?
>
> Or, perhaps, could someone make recommendations for a reliable printer
> that can print up to 12x18?
>
> Hoping for help!
>
> David Froom
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Re: [Finale] Finale Linked Parts: what's missing?

[Robert Patterson]

About grace note spacing in linked parts, note position alterations have
been unlinkable for some time now. (I don't recall exactly which version,
but at least since Fin12.) That doesn't address the larger issue of grace
note spacing in general, but my Mass Copy plugin is useful if you have to
do the same task repetitively.

To Jonathan's point about pre-2005 files, I highly recommend he look into
SheepShaver. It allows me to open a Mac OS9 window on my current macOS
(10.13) desketop. I have captured all my old files as PDFs, back to 1993
and beyond. Trying to upgrade those files would be unthinkable. (I believe
there is also a SheepShaver version for Win.)


On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Jonathan Smith 
wrote:

> I second Christopher on this! The advantages outweigh the disadvantages by
> a long way.
>
> I suppose a lot of this discussion will be influenced by the type of work
> you do. In pure engraving work where final output will never be altered,
> then extracted parts are fine. But for those working on projects for
> clients who change their minds, or material that you may need to update,
> re-cycle, make cuts/additions, then linked parts are extremely useful and
> save hours of endless repetitive changes. The larger the ensemble - the
> more time saved, as with ext. parts there will be more files to open.
>
> Someone mentioned earlier about having different font sizes in Score and
> Parts, well, this is possible in linked parts with a little time spent on
> which items show in the score and which in the parts (show/hide). You just
> need to put in two instances of each item, then have show in part only and
> show in score only. I frequently place larger rehearsal markings
> (numbers/letters) in the score to the parts as it is easier to read for the
> MD and not so large in the part that it takes up all the space. Things like
> this once done are easliy replicated, or saved into templates, after which
> you fly!
>
> In Fin 25 you can have different size/styles in time signatures for the
> score and the parts.
>
> Things I DON’T LIKE are:
>
> Grace note spacing, especially on staves with 2 instruments
> Cue notes on staves with 2 instruments
> Cue notes on staves where there are multiple versions of the parts (Tuba
> in C, Bb bass clef, Bb treble clef)
>
> All said and done, Finale is superb application. I’ve used it since
> version 1.0 it has constantly evolved over the last 25 years. I work mainly
> in musical theatre and band scores and it is so adaptable to that medium.
> Eventually yes, you will arrive at a point where there is precious little
> that can be done to improve the bulk of the application and I think it’s
> good that MM scrapped the annual system of upgrades for minor improvements,
> sometimes not even appealing to the general user, not worth the fee and
> sometimes buggy in trying to reach deadlines.
>
> What is very frustrating now is the problems involved in upgrading older
> Finale files (pre-2005) with the new system softwares which we are all
> really obliged to embrace at some point. I have a stack of older files
> dating back to 1993 which I must find time update as I fear they will one
> day become impossible to open. The upside of this (in ref. to Linked parts)
> is that I will only really need to update the scores and not the thousands
> of extracted parts as it will be quicker to load up a page format library
> and create new parts.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> > On 23 Apr 2018, at 08:49, finale-requ...@shsu.edu wrote:
> >
> > From: Christopher Smith >
> > Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale Linked Parts: what's missing?
> > Date: 22 April 2018 at 23:51:34
> > To: >
> >
> >
> > Ooh, ooh, ooh! I got this!
> >
> > Fewer files is a HUGE time saver! You can enter all the cues with copy
> and paste (or the plugin, which I find buggy) without pasting between
> documents, you can change the font sizes for tempi and rehearsal letters
> ONCE (or anything else ONCE) and have it apply to all parts at once, if you
> find something colliding in all parts you move it ONCE and it is solved
> everywhere, and you can take advantage of JW Copy Part Layout to regularize
> the page layout. Later edits, too, have to be done twice (once in the score
> file, once in the part file) but in extracted parts you have to make edits
> in ALL files, which can be maddening.
> >
> > Christopher
> >
> >
> >> On Apr 22, 2018, at 5:38 PM, Lee Actor > wrote:
> >>
> >> Makes sense.  It seems to me you'd also be able to change the tempo
> marking font size in the linked parts score; I change several global
> settings in the version of the score I extract parts from that I want to
> apply to all parts and not to the score.
> >>
> >> With two separate copies of the score, though, I don't see the
> advantage of linked parts over extracted parts, other than fewer 

Re: [Finale] Finale Linked Parts: what's missing?

[Robert Patterson]

Where having minimal files helps a lot is when you have to add or remove
measures after the fact. Then opening a modifying 2 files is much easier
than modifying 30. Btw: I still use 2 files for some projects, but only for
large ensembles with parts doubled up on single lines in the score. For
these projects, parts that can stay inside the file with the score and I
only maintain the ones I have to separately. Usually this means percussion,
keyboards, and string parts are in the file with the score and the wws and
brass parts are separate.

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 7:08 PM, Aaron Sherber  wrote:

> In my experience, it has been a big time saver -- not sure if I would say
> HUGE.
>
> Aaron.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 6:14 PM, Lee Actor  wrote:
>
> > I already enter all cues in my "extracted parts" score, no pasting
> between
> > docusments.
> > I also change several "parts only" items globally once, in the same
> score.
> > Same with elements colliding in all parts (rare in my experience).
> >
> > You're right about later edits potentially having to be done in multiple
> > files, but for me it's rare that a later edit needs to be done in more
> than
> > 1 or 2 files.  To me, a bigger danger in doing later edits in linked
> parts
> > is that I might inadvertently have Auto music spacing or multimeasure
> rests
> > on, where a minor edit in one part can affect a different part that will
> > likely go unnoticed.
> >
> > I don't mean to be argumentative; I really am interested in the best work
> > flow.  But isn't saying that fewer files is a HUGE time saver something
> of
> > an overstatement?
> >
> > -Lee
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf
> > Of
> > Christopher Smith
> > Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 2:52 PM
> > To: finale@shsu.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale Linked Parts: what's missing?
> >
> > Ooh, ooh, ooh! I got this!
> >
> > Fewer files is a HUGE time saver! You can enter all the cues with copy
> and
> > paste (or the plugin, which I find buggy) without pasting between
> > documents,
> > you can change the font sizes for tempi and rehearsal letters ONCE (or
> > anything else ONCE) and have it apply to all parts at once, if you find
> > something colliding in all parts you move it ONCE and it is solved
> > everywhere, and you can take advantage of JW Copy Part Layout to
> regularize
> > the page layout. Later edits, too, have to be done twice (once in the
> score
> > file, once in the part file) but in extracted parts you have to make
> edits
> > in ALL files, which can be maddening.
> >
> > Christopher
> >
> >
> > > On Apr 22, 2018, at 5:38 PM, Lee Actor  wrote:
> > >
> > > Makes sense.  It seems to me you'd also be able to change the tempo
> > marking font size in the linked parts score; I change several global
> > settings in the version of the score I extract parts from that I want to
> > apply to all parts and not to the score.
> > >
> > > With two separate copies of the score, though, I don't see the
> advantage
> > of linked parts over extracted parts, other than fewer files.  How does
> > this
> > save time and effort?
> >
> > ___
> > Finale mailing list
> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >
> > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >
> > ___
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> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >
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> > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >
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>
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Re: [Finale] Finale Linked Parts: what's missing?

[Robert Patterson]

My Note Spacing plugin already allows you to have different spacing options
for parts and score (with saved settings). It doesn't do allotment tables,
though, so either part or score would have to use the reference duration
settings.

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Skjalg Bjørstad <
trekkspillman...@icloud.com> wrote:

> Your 2) and 3) are not correct.  Music spacing is not linked between score
> and parts. You can also change clef in parts with staff styles
> (transposition>set to clef) in part only.  1) and 4) are valid, though.
>
> Skjalg - for anledningen på nett med iPhone.
>
> > 22. apr. 2018 kl. 20:34 skrev Lee Actor <l...@leeactor.com>:
> >
> > I'm not a regular user of linked parts -- yes, I still make a copy of the
> > score and extract from there -- but I did make a reasonable effort
> several
> > years ago to incorporate them into my normal work flow.  I gave up after
> a
> > month or so due to encountering too many situations that required special
> > workarounds, and decided linked parts were costing me more time than they
> > were saving.
> >
> > So given my admittedly limited knowledge, here are some items that I
> found
> > to be more trouble in linked parts than it's worth:
> > 1) Cues are a mess, esp. in orchestral scores with 2 wind parts on a
> staff.
> > 2) Can't have different music spacing in score and parts.  I like my
> parts
> > closer spaced than the score.
> > 3) Can't have different clefs in score and part (e.g., a high bassoon 1
> part
> > might mean tenor clef for bassoon 2 in the score, but should be bass
> clef in
> > the part).
> > 4) Grace note spacing.
> >
> > I encountered other issues which can be fairly attributed to pilot error,
> > and some of the above problems may have already been addressed.  I'm
> ready
> > to embrace linked parts, as soon as the pain of special cases and
> > workarounds is exceeded by the benefits.  Obviously this is a subjective
> > judgement.
> >
> > -Lee
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On
> Behalf Of
> > Robert Patterson
> > Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 6:32 AM
> > To: finale
> > Subject: [Finale] Finale Linked Parts: what's missing?
> >
> > I am starting a new thread because my comments seem to be buried in the
> > recent Dorico thread. I would like to poll this list about what features
> > are missing from Linked Parts. I am doing so with an eye towards a
> possible
> > plugin to address what can be addressed.
> >
> > Things that cannot be addressed by a plugin are
> > * allowing special tools in voiced parts
> > * unlinking items that Finale currently can't unlink manually
> >
> > The kinds of things that are likely to be addressable are in the area of
> > page layout. In fact I already have a plugin that can copy a page layout
> > from one part to another. And Jari has made one that copies everything
> down
> > to the note spacing. But maybe there are things we've missed or U.I.
> issues.
> >
> > What prompts this request is the discussion of Dorico "layouts" which
> seem
> > very similar to linked parts in Finale. I'm curious if there is
> > functionality there that a plugin could bring to Finale.
> > ___
> > Finale mailing list
> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >
> > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >
> > ___
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> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >
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> > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
>
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[Finale] Finale Linked Parts: what's missing?

[Robert Patterson]

I am starting a new thread because my comments seem to be buried in the
recent Dorico thread. I would like to poll this list about what features
are missing from Linked Parts. I am doing so with an eye towards a possible
plugin to address what can be addressed.

Things that cannot be addressed by a plugin are
* allowing special tools in voiced parts
* unlinking items that Finale currently can't unlink manually

The kinds of things that are likely to be addressable are in the area of
page layout. In fact I already have a plugin that can copy a page layout
from one part to another. And Jari has made one that copies everything down
to the note spacing. But maybe there are things we've missed or U.I. issues.

What prompts this request is the discussion of Dorico "layouts" which seem
very similar to linked parts in Finale. I'm curious if there is
functionality there that a plugin could bring to Finale.
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

Voiced linked parts are indeed fatally flawed for having no access to
special tools. The irony is that there is no longer any need for this
restriction and they could essentially just turn it off. I have complained
about it in all the appropriate fora.

Plugins are quite available in linked parts. Just not the ones originally
developed by Makemusic. But since the most useful plugins are 3rd party I
don't see this as a huge loss. (I do find the non-availability of Move
Rests to be annoying though.)


On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 10:59 AM, Skjalg Bjørstad <
trekkspillman...@icloud.com> wrote:

> Don’t know about the others, but the major shortcomings in Finale’s voiced
> linked parts are
> -Not access to special tools
> -No enharmonic flips
>
> Another limitation for linked part: Plug-ins/Script  not accessible.
> (Scripts are accessible with a workaround, but...)
>
> Skjalg - for anledningen på nett med iPhone.
>
> > 21. apr. 2018 kl. 16:15 skrev Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com>:
> >
> > Could you elaborate on what you find lacking in Finale's linked parts vs.
> > Sib. (or even Dorico)? Some of that lack might be addressable with a
> plugin.
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 9:02 AM, David H. Bailey <
> > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com> wrote:
> >
> >> There are professional engraving projects being done with Dorico. If you
> >> want to see what it is capable of there are many youtube videos
> addressing
> >> various aspects of Dorico, and I would say that it is indeed capable of
> >> very elegant professional, publishable output.
> >>
> >> Yes, you read that one of the Dorico users exports to Finale for the
> >> finished product -- I haven't read on the Dorico forum that there are
> >> others who do that.  I do know there are lots like me who are
> continuing to
> >> work in our notation software of choice while learning the intricacies
> of
> >> Dorico.  I wonder if exporting to Finale simply makes things easier for
> >> that person because of a workflow developed over many years of using
> >> Finale, while he is learning the more intricate details of the workflow
> in
> >> Dorico to get the same output.
> >>
> >> I would say that Dorico is as much a truly professional music engraving
> >> tool as Sibelius was when it entered the Windows/Mac marketplace.
> Several
> >> publishers, if I remember correctly, began using it at that time
> instead of
> >> Finale, while some other publishers added Sibelius to their toolbox and
> >> used both.
> >>
> >> A lot depends on how one defines  "truly professional" -- it's certainly
> >> much more professional than either Notion or Forte, two other recent
> >> entries into the notation software marketplace, and despite major
> advances
> >> with MuseScore, Dorico is capable of producing much more elegant printed
> >> output.  And it's capable of producing output as elegant as Finale's
> >> output.  I don't work in avant-garde notation so I can't speak to either
> >> Dorico or Sibelius or Finale regarding the ability to accomplish such
> >> projects.
> >>
> >> I hope I'm wrong about Finale and that your thoughts are more accurate,
> >> but to be honest I don't see much advancement in Finale from
> Finale2014.5
> >> to Finale25.  Linked score/parts didn't suddenly become superb and very
> >> efficient.  I still find Sibelius's linked score/parts to be much more
> >> efficient and easier to use.
> >>
> >> But I know that you and Chuck Israel and many others are producing great
> >> output with Finale, and I hope development continues, with some major
> >> improvements coming soon.  Not only do Finale users need and deserve
> this
> >> sort of thing, but the marketplace does also.  Finale used to lead, then
> >> Sibelius hit the marketplace and suddenly Finale was playing catch-up
> with
> >> Sibelius.  Will it need to play catch-up with Dorico as well as Sibelius
> >> now?  Or will Finale leap ahead with the next version and force Sibelius
> >> and Dorico to catch up to it?
> >>
> >> Of course what I'm saying about Finale is also true about Sibelius -- I
> >> have heard nothing about Sibelius 8 or 8.5 to make me want to upgrade
> from
> >> 7.1.3, and ever since the takeover by Avid I have been worried about
> future
> >> development of Sibelius.
> >>
> >> And ultimately it all boils down to each of us finding and using the
> tools
> >> which allow us to get t

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

So I watched this video <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPP4GVZbaAs> about
laying out a piano/vocal score for a large orchestral work in Dorico. I
would do (have done) this with linked parts in Finale. Finale's user
interface is quite clunky compared to Dorico. To eliminate the piano
reduction from score view, for example, you have to Force Hide it with a
staff style. But in terms of steps, it is basically equally easy to
implement once you know the steps in Finale.

What I am seeing here is an opportunity for plugin to eliminate a lot of
the pain points with linked parts. I am curious to know what this list
thinks they are.



On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 11:04 AM, <wit...@nctv.com> wrote:

> I'm so tired of this thread. Finale users: get on with it. Find a new
> subject.
> Please
>
> -Original Message-
> From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu <finale-boun...@shsu.edu> On Behalf Of
> Skjalg Bjørstad
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2018 11:59 AM
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Subject: Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?
>
> Don’t know about the others, but the major shortcomings in Finale’s voiced
> linked parts are -Not access to special tools -No enharmonic flips
>
> Another limitation for linked part: Plug-ins/Script  not accessible.
> (Scripts are accessible with a workaround, but...)
>
> Skjalg - for anledningen på nett med iPhone.
>
> > 21. apr. 2018 kl. 16:15 skrev Robert Patterson <
> rob...@robertgpatterson.com>:
> >
> > Could you elaborate on what you find lacking in Finale's linked parts vs.
> > Sib. (or even Dorico)? Some of that lack might be addressable with a
> plugin.
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 9:02 AM, David H. Bailey <
> > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com> wrote:
> >
> >> There are professional engraving projects being done with Dorico. If
> >> you want to see what it is capable of there are many youtube videos
> >> addressing various aspects of Dorico, and I would say that it is
> >> indeed capable of very elegant professional, publishable output.
> >>
> >> Yes, you read that one of the Dorico users exports to Finale for the
> >> finished product -- I haven't read on the Dorico forum that there are
> >> others who do that.  I do know there are lots like me who are
> >> continuing to work in our notation software of choice while learning
> >> the intricacies of Dorico.  I wonder if exporting to Finale simply
> >> makes things easier for that person because of a workflow developed
> >> over many years of using Finale, while he is learning the more
> >> intricate details of the workflow in Dorico to get the same output.
> >>
> >> I would say that Dorico is as much a truly professional music
> >> engraving tool as Sibelius was when it entered the Windows/Mac
> >> marketplace. Several publishers, if I remember correctly, began using
> >> it at that time instead of Finale, while some other publishers added
> >> Sibelius to their toolbox and used both.
> >>
> >> A lot depends on how one defines  "truly professional" -- it's
> >> certainly much more professional than either Notion or Forte, two
> >> other recent entries into the notation software marketplace, and
> >> despite major advances with MuseScore, Dorico is capable of producing
> >> much more elegant printed output.  And it's capable of producing
> >> output as elegant as Finale's output.  I don't work in avant-garde
> >> notation so I can't speak to either Dorico or Sibelius or Finale
> >> regarding the ability to accomplish such projects.
> >>
> >> I hope I'm wrong about Finale and that your thoughts are more
> >> accurate, but to be honest I don't see much advancement in Finale
> >> from Finale2014.5 to Finale25.  Linked score/parts didn't suddenly
> >> become superb and very efficient.  I still find Sibelius's linked
> >> score/parts to be much more efficient and easier to use.
> >>
> >> But I know that you and Chuck Israel and many others are producing
> >> great output with Finale, and I hope development continues, with some
> >> major improvements coming soon.  Not only do Finale users need and
> >> deserve this sort of thing, but the marketplace does also.  Finale
> >> used to lead, then Sibelius hit the marketplace and suddenly Finale
> >> was playing catch-up with Sibelius.  Will it need to play catch-up
> >> with Dorico as well as Sibelius now?  Or will Finale leap ahead with
> >> the next version and force Sibelius and Dorico to catch up to it?
> >>
> >> Of course what 

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

Could you elaborate on what you find lacking in Finale's linked parts vs.
Sib. (or even Dorico)? Some of that lack might be addressable with a plugin.

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 9:02 AM, David H. Bailey <
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com> wrote:

> There are professional engraving projects being done with Dorico. If you
> want to see what it is capable of there are many youtube videos addressing
> various aspects of Dorico, and I would say that it is indeed capable of
> very elegant professional, publishable output.
>
> Yes, you read that one of the Dorico users exports to Finale for the
> finished product -- I haven't read on the Dorico forum that there are
> others who do that.  I do know there are lots like me who are continuing to
> work in our notation software of choice while learning the intricacies of
> Dorico.  I wonder if exporting to Finale simply makes things easier for
> that person because of a workflow developed over many years of using
> Finale, while he is learning the more intricate details of the workflow in
> Dorico to get the same output.
>
> I would say that Dorico is as much a truly professional music engraving
> tool as Sibelius was when it entered the Windows/Mac marketplace. Several
> publishers, if I remember correctly, began using it at that time instead of
> Finale, while some other publishers added Sibelius to their toolbox and
> used both.
>
> A lot depends on how one defines  "truly professional" -- it's certainly
> much more professional than either Notion or Forte, two other recent
> entries into the notation software marketplace, and despite major advances
> with MuseScore, Dorico is capable of producing much more elegant printed
> output.  And it's capable of producing output as elegant as Finale's
> output.  I don't work in avant-garde notation so I can't speak to either
> Dorico or Sibelius or Finale regarding the ability to accomplish such
> projects.
>
> I hope I'm wrong about Finale and that your thoughts are more accurate,
> but to be honest I don't see much advancement in Finale from Finale2014.5
> to Finale25.  Linked score/parts didn't suddenly become superb and very
> efficient.  I still find Sibelius's linked score/parts to be much more
> efficient and easier to use.
>
> But I know that you and Chuck Israel and many others are producing great
> output with Finale, and I hope development continues, with some major
> improvements coming soon.  Not only do Finale users need and deserve this
> sort of thing, but the marketplace does also.  Finale used to lead, then
> Sibelius hit the marketplace and suddenly Finale was playing catch-up with
> Sibelius.  Will it need to play catch-up with Dorico as well as Sibelius
> now?  Or will Finale leap ahead with the next version and force Sibelius
> and Dorico to catch up to it?
>
> Of course what I'm saying about Finale is also true about Sibelius -- I
> have heard nothing about Sibelius 8 or 8.5 to make me want to upgrade from
> 7.1.3, and ever since the takeover by Avid I have been worried about future
> development of Sibelius.
>
> And ultimately it all boils down to each of us finding and using the tools
> which allow us to get the desired result with the minimum of effort for us
> so that most of our effort can be put into the creative side of things.
>
>
>
> On 4/21/2018 8:33 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>
>>  > And with the entry of Dorico at the truly professional music engraving
>> level
>>
>> Wait. Is Dorico at the truly professional level? All I've heard is that
>> it has the potential to be but isn't there yet. I mean, one of the Dorico
>> users in this thread even said they export to Finale for the finished
>> product. (Which surprised me.)
>>
>> Everything I've heard about the most recent owners of Finale is that they
>> are quite interested in it. But I haven't heard much about it in recent
>> months. I hope Michael Johnson's departure was for personal reasons rather
>> than due to a direction the owners are taking. Meanwhile the rest of the
>> team (as far as I can tell) seems really engaged and forward looking.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 4:12 AM, David H. Bailey <dhbaile...@comcast.net
>> <mailto:dhbaile...@comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>> On 4/20/2018 7:13 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
>>
>> I take your point that they "could" do some of the abstraction
>> that is
>> inherent in the newer programs.  I am not seeing anything that
>> suggests
>> to me they are at all interested in matching up to Dorico.
>>  Indeed, the
>> only recent statements I could find were very muc

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

> And with the entry of Dorico at the truly professional music engraving
level

Wait. Is Dorico at the truly professional level? All I've heard is that it
has the potential to be but isn't there yet. I mean, one of the Dorico
users in this thread even said they export to Finale for the finished
product. (Which surprised me.)

Everything I've heard about the most recent owners of Finale is that they
are quite interested in it. But I haven't heard much about it in recent
months. I hope Michael Johnson's departure was for personal reasons rather
than due to a direction the owners are taking. Meanwhile the rest of the
team (as far as I can tell) seems really engaged and forward looking.




On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 4:12 AM, David H. Bailey 
wrote:

> On 4/20/2018 7:13 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
>
>> I take your point that they "could" do some of the abstraction that is
>> inherent in the newer programs.  I am not seeing anything that suggests
>> to me they are at all interested in matching up to Dorico.  Indeed, the
>> only recent statements I could find were very much oriented to
>> SmartMusic and not Finale.  If they actually are making a significant
>> investment in the program (which I question), I suggest it would be wise
>> for them to take note of the major advances in the past 2 years in both
>> Dorico and Sibelius, and communicate much more openly with the Finale
>> user base.
>>
>> [snip]
>
> Back when Coda was the owner and Finale was the major product, they knew
> they had to keep communicating with users and work hard to keep the program
> growing in order to satisfy their user base and attract new users.  But
> with virtually no competition in the Windows area at that time they were
> the program that any newcomer had to beat.
>
> With the various owners the product has had along the way, coupled with
> the development of a new cash-cow (smartmusic) Finale has been pushed aside
> somewhat, seemingly more with each new owner, and improved mainly so that
> it could create more and better smartmusic accompaniments in addition to
> producing publication-ready engraved music.  To that end, whoever owned the
> program worked to improve the program in obvious ways again to keep the
> user base somewhat satisfied and also in an attempt to attract new users
> but mainly to benefit the SmartMusic marketplace.
>
> But the current owners are not musicians, they were not involved in the
> music field at all before the acquisition of Finale and SmartMusic. Their
> athletic-training background sees a good fit for SmartMusic since it's a
> training software, just for musicians instead of athletes.  And so Finale
> tags along because without it there can't be any new SmartMusic
> accompaniments created.  But Finale upgrades generate an unpredictable
> amount of income and then only when the new version comes out -- once it's
> out and those who will upgrade have done so, there's very little cash-flow
> in the product.  Especially with the less-expensive (free) but very capable
> MuseScore attracting ever larger numbers of people who formerly would have
> had to purchase either Finale or Sibelius (i.e. music students and recent
> graduates of music schools/colleges), Finale's market share among notation
> software users is constantly shrinking.  And with the entry of Dorico at
> the truly professional music engraving level the potential user base is
> diluted even further and the recent entry of Forte and Notion is attracting
> those potential users who don't want to spend a lot of money and who
> formerly would have purchased the cheaper versions of Finale.
>
> But SmartMusic remains the only product of its kind and it has major
> educational market music publishers sewn up. With the annual subscription
> the only business model and schools willing to budget for it so that
> teachers have clearly objective ways of measuring student ability (there's
> no disputing when SmartMusic records a student's performance and gives a
> concrete number of mistakes), it is a golden cash-cow.
>
> We have to remember that in the early days of Finale when Coda was run by
> musicians who cared about making a product that could serve them as well as
> the user base the thrust of the company was to make a product that filled a
> need.
>
> These days when the company is no longer run by musicians but instead by
> accountants and entrepreneurs for whom the bottom line is the most
> important attribute of a product, the product isn't being made to fulfill
> their dream of usefulness, only to fulfill their dream of larger profits.
> So as long as SmartMusic remains profitable and as long as Finale is the
> only way to create SmartMusic accompaniments, Finale will remain viable to
> the company but not a great income generator in and of itself.  If it were
> a larger income generator it wouldn't be getting sold every few years.
>
>
> --
> *
>
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> 

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

I'm saying you are selling Finale short. While I agree 100% that
cautionaries (for example) are a problem, you are sellling it way short to
characterize it as a mere note paint program. (Accis in particular, are now
completely controlled by code, as opposed to relying on the document data,
so all it would take is for them to add the code for cautionaries.) Finale
has always had a paradigm that was designed for dynamic adjustment to
revisions. There is absolutely nothing stopping Makemusic from implementing
much of that right now. It just has not been their priority for many
frustrating years.

Where Finale is fundamentally limited is in being chained to barlines. To
the extent Dorico capitalizes on its (presumed) lack of such limitation,
Finale will struggle to keep up, no matter how committed the company
becomes to catching up. But I also am unsure how much it matters for the
huge majority of music notation users.

Finale could do so much more for its users and always could have. I share
your frustration. But I also work very quickly in it and have developed a
workflow that often lets me do (for example) page layout of linked parts in
just a few clicks. (That really depends on the complexity of the music.) I
know they have not stopped working on it, and they still have many senior
developers. I wouldn't count them out yet.


On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 4:26 PM, Craig Parmerlee <cr...@parmerlee.com>
wrote:

> I didn't really mean that as an exact date or even a comment specifically
> about Finale.  What I should have said is "the 1980s way of doing things."
>
> All of the notation products of that generation (Encore, Overture, Finale,
> etc) can reasonably be called "note paint programs".  That is to say, they
> all provided ways to paint notes, rests, and other musical markings onto a
> canvas.  Once painted, much of this was static.  There was some ability to
> "float" items, say, by inserting measures.  But basically, what you painted
> remained as it was painted until you explicitly painted something
> different. Along the way, some clever people produced some powerful
> plug-ins that allowed certain re-painting operations in bulk.  It worked
> OK, and still does for many people.  But this static painting/re-paining
> approach has some fundamental limitations, especially in the area of
> layout.  There have been some attempts in Finale to automate the layout and
> collision avoidance.  Despite all the effort, I consider that mostly a
> failure because part editing remains a very tedious process that often
> requires 30% of the project time.
>
> And some of that just doesn't work.  I am a stickler for cautionary
> accidentals.  IMHO, the only way to do this reliably in Finale is by hand,
> painstakingly checking every single note. There is a plug-in that is
> supposed to apply cautionary accidentals, but it isn't reliable and often
> does more damage than it corrects.  Moreover, it is always a batch
> process.  If you add new passages, they don't get cautionary accidentals
> automatically.  The same can be said for many operations in Finale.  (e.g.
> multi-measure rests.)  These are batch processes, not real time.
>
> Today's way of doing things separates the idea of "music entry" (as
> opposed to "note entry") from the process of presenting the score and
> parts.  The layout is governed by rules, and these rules are applied in
> real time to all current AND FUTURE material in the score.  I have very
> limited usage of Dorico at this stage, but everything I have seen tells me
> it works very well and reliably.
>
> I would compare this to the first generation of WAV editors like CoolEdit
> and Audacity.  You could use these tools to make transformations to a sound
> file, such as applying compression, normalizing, or equalizing.  But it is
> always a batch process. You have to do the transformation manually, then go
> back and listen to know if the results were as intended.
>
> Today, anybody serious about sound sculpting uses a DAW (Cubase,
> StudioOne, Cakewalk, Protools, etc).  With any DAW, you operate on the
> material in real time -- even while the sound files are playing -- to dial
> in the results you want.A person can use Audacity, and some people still
> do.  But the world has mostly moved on to real time.
>
>
> On 4/20/2018 1:04 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>
>> the 1985 way
>>>
>> In fairness, the 1985 way was ProCo. If you mean the 1989 way, it was this
>> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/f2d6ftebwxzsyu0/Screen%20Shot%202
>> 018-04-20%20at%2011.54.54%20AM.png?dl=0>
>> .
>>
>> While I'm the first to recognize Finale's limitations, I think you a being
>> overly harsh.
>>
>
>
> ---
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

> the 1985 way

In fairness, the 1985 way was ProCo. If you mean the 1989 way, it was this
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/f2d6ftebwxzsyu0/Screen%20Shot%202018-04-20%20at%2011.54.54%20AM.png?dl=0>
.

While I'm the first to recognize Finale's limitations, I think you a being
overly harsh.



On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 8:50 AM, <cr...@parmerlee.com> wrote:

> I have spent just 90 minutes hands on, and it is already obvious to me
> that I will save loads of time on layout edits and other little
> niceties like cautionary accidentals.  Things like cautionary
> accidentals, beaming, notating ties correction, multi-measure rests
> and many other things happen automatically according to rules you
> choose.
>
> In addition, the new chord support is much more elaborate and
> consistent than anything in Finale.  Finale separates the information
> entry from the information presentation.  This becomes evident on
> chords.  There is only one "major 7" chord, but once your chords are
> entered, you are free to choose any of the popular conventions for
> displaying chord names (e.g. CMaj7, Cma7, CM7, Ctriangle7 etc.)  You
> select the display system and that's how everything displays --
> automatically.
>
> I have not done a full big band chart from start to finish.  I plan to
> do this next week.  That will put Dorico (and me) to the test, as I
> usually begin with MIDI imports for the Rhy instruments.  From what I
> have seen, Dorico has done a good job of handling MIDI and XML import.
>
> One thing that seems goofy with Dorico is the idea that is it hard to
> turn on chord symbols in a limited way.  For example, I typically show
> all the chords for piano and guitar. I will often do simplified chords
> (and fewer chords) for bass.  And I will show chords for horns only
> during solos of course.  I think this is all possible in Dorico, but I
> don't think the Dorico folks understand how jazz notation works.  This
> is the one case I have seen where it is probably easier to do it the
> 1985 way.
>
>
> Quoting Martin Nickless <mnnickl...@gmail.com>:
>
> > Hi
> > May I just ask what may seem very simplistic but what difference
> > does dorico have on somebody i.e. myself that is primarily writing
> > big band scores and small jazz groups quartets quintets etc
> > to my mind finale works perfectly well for those type of projects
> > Martin
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On 20 Apr 2018, at 13:17, Robert Patterson
> >> <rob...@robertgpatterson.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I guess I don't understand how a master page set works. What advantage
> does
> >> it bring for working on a few instruments at a time?
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 5:45 AM, David H. Bailey <
> dhbaile...@comcast.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ooops -- I guess the musician in me was more powerful than the French
> >>> student.
> >>>
> >>> What clef does the "voilà" use?  The French violin clef of course.
> >>>
> >>> David H. Bailey
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 4/19/2018 9:46 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Apr 19, 2018, at 5:18 PM, David H. Bailey <dhbaile...@comcast.net
> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 4/19/2018 7:58 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> >>>>>> n choose whichever instruments out of the total
> >>>>> original ensemble one wants to use in any particular "flow."  You
> simply
> >>>>> select the instruments from the original large ensemble and viola you
> >>>>> have just what you need in the new flow.
> >>>>
> >>>> Unless, David, you happen to need a “voila”.
> >>>>
> >>>> :) Chuck
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> David H. Bailey
> >>>>> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> >>>>> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> >>>>> ___
> >>>>> Finale mailing list
> >>>>> Finale@shsu.edu
> >>>>> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >>>>> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >>>>
> >>>> Chuck Israels
> >>>> cisra...@comca

Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

I guess I don't understand how a master page set works. What advantage does
it bring for working on a few instruments at a time?

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 5:45 AM, David H. Bailey <dhbaile...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>
>
>
> Ooops -- I guess the musician in me was more powerful than the French
> student.
>
> What clef does the "voilà" use?  The French violin clef of course.
>
> David H. Bailey
>
>
>
> On 4/19/2018 9:46 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Apr 19, 2018, at 5:18 PM, David H. Bailey <dhbaile...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 4/19/2018 7:58 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> >>> n choose whichever instruments out of the total
> >> original ensemble one wants to use in any particular "flow."  You simply
> >> select the instruments from the original large ensemble and viola you
> >> have just what you need in the new flow.
> >
> > Unless, David, you happen to need a “voila”.
> >
> > :) Chuck
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> David H. Bailey
> >> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> >> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> >> ___
> >> Finale mailing list
> >> Finale@shsu.edu
> >> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> >> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >
> > Chuck Israels
> > cisra...@comcast.net
> > (360) 201-3434
> >
> > 8831 SE 12th Ave.
> > Portland OR 97202
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
> > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
> >
>
>
> --
> David H. Bailey
> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

I don't think I understand Steve Parker's comment about "MT scores". I
don't doubt that Finale requires stitching together thirty files, but I
don't understand the requirement well enough to understand why.

My question about different layouts is, are they anything like linked
parts? Because an improved interface for copying part layouts is definitely
something that I've wanted and could actually be done by a plugin.

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 3:04 PM, Steve Parker  wrote:

> Dorico’s workflow is interesting.
> I can do an MT score for a production in one file, rather than thirty
> which need stitching together in Finale. Different cues can be assigned to
> different layouts. It’s simple to have alternatives in the same file and to
> pick and replace.
>
> > On 19 Apr 2018, at 20:48, David H. Bailey 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/19/2018 2:20 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
> >> [snip]
> >> Every year that Finale does nothing, it gets another year behind the
> >> state of the art.  It seems doubtful to me Finale will ever return to
> >> anywhere close to the state of the art.  Moreover, I don't see any
> >> indication the company even considers that a goal.
> > [snip]
> >
> > Finale is a mature program, as is Sibelius.  That doesn't mean it's
> > close to perfect, but it does mean that the company realizes that there
> > is a diminishing return on investment, since what it improves will be
> > meaningful (most of the time) to a decreasing number of users.
> >
> > And the marketplace for new users is very divided -- college students
> > can get by very adequately with MuseScore, as can many amateur
> > composers/arrangers who would have been the prime candidates for the
> > cheaper versions of Finale in the past.  And the marketplace currently
> > is very divided, what with Sibelius still going strong, the entry of
> > Dorico to compete for the high-end publishing quality notation software
> > market, along with Notion and Forte to take up the not-so-high-end part
> > of the marketplace.  These days I recommend MuseScore to all my students
> > who express an interest in notation software, since it is very powerful
> > and continues to get better and better.  Only if someone wants something
> > better than MuseScore to I suggest Finale and/or Sibelius.
> >
> > Personally I have switched to doing practically all my notation products
> > in Sibelius -- for my notational needs it does all that I need/want and
> > it does it more easily and quickly.
> >
> > The company isn't moving Finale forward very fast because it can't
> > recoup its investment.  Whereas with SmartMusic, and its
> > subscription-only business model, it sits on a cash cow.  As far as the
> > company is concerned, I'll bet they consider Finale necessary primarily
> > as a tool for people to create SmartMusic accompaniment files and it can
> > already do what it needs to for that without further investment in the
> > minutiae of avant-garde notation and without improving long-standing
> > bugs which will never get fixed.
> >
> > Heck, even if you create your own music and then create SmartMusic
> > accompaniment files, you still have to pay the subscription fee!  Smart
> > marketing, but something I don't have any interest in doing.  However,
> > for band directors and other music teachers in academic situations, it's
> > something that gives them objective data on which to assign grades to
> > students, and it takes very little effort on the band director or music
> > teacher's part.  And once the assignments have been created the teacher
> > no longer needs to schedule time to hear every student, and students
> > can't complain "Mr. So-and-So doesn't like me so he gave me a D, when
> > SuzyQ, who got an A, doesn't play any better than I do!"
> >
> > That's been the course of the company for the past several owners.
> >
> > I'm very sorry to read that Michael Johnson has left the company.  Is
> > there anybody from the "good old days" left?  I assume Michael Goode is
> > still there, but he is a recent addition.  Is there any "institutional
> > memory" left among the development team?
> >
> > --
> > *
> > David H. Bailey
> > dhbaile...@comcast.net
> > http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> > ___
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Re: [Finale] What is the Finale strategy?

[Robert Patterson]

Leaving aside what happened with BIAB, how is Dorico more automatic than
Finale with respect to beams and ties? (I don't doubt it is. I'm just
curious how.) I tend to distrust a lot of automation, unless it can be
overridden on a case-by-case basis.

What I expect the company that owns Finale to do is to continue addressing
pain points. That's what I hope they'll do anyway. Address enough pain
points and I suppose it won't matter if it's on the vanguard. I'm not sure
I even know what "state of the art" means.

Are there notations Finale won't do that it should? Absolutely: multihandle
smart shapes, for example. And I believe Dorico *does* that, at least for
slurs. Finale should have added it years ago, and there is nothing
precluding them from adding them now. But that's not revolutionary change.
Is there a notation Finale won't do that requires revolutionary change? I'm
not sure. What might it be?


On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Craig Parmerlee <cr...@parmerlee.com>
wrote:

> I used BIAB harmonization a lot, especially to get a quick draft of an
> arrangement.  I usually re-harmonized manually for the final copy, but it
> was a very useful way to get something going quickly.
>
> Over time, this degraded.  Eventually it became very destructive, as
> whenever you would run the tool on a range of measures, it would mess up
> the beaming for other measures on the same instrument, even measures not in
> the selected range.  Because of this rather serious bug, it really isn't
> productive to keep a version of F2012 installed to be able to run the BIAB
> plug-in.
>
> And that bug illustrates a difference between a 1980s era program like
> Finale and a modern program like Dorico.  In Dorico, the beaming and ties
> are completely automatic, following the notation rules you establish.  If
> you move notes around in time, the music automatically re-casts itself to
> be notated correctly with regards to beams and ties.  Every year that
> Finale does nothing, it gets another year behind the state of the art.  It
> seems doubtful to me Finale will ever return to anywhere close to the state
> of the art.  Moreover, I don't see any indication the company even
> considers that a goal.
>
>
>
>
> On 4/19/2018 1:46 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>
>> Tempo tool and BIAB were significant features? Color me surprised. I'd be
>> interested to know if others found them to be significant. Personally I
>> never used BIAB even once, and the Tempo Tool only rarely and only up
>> until
>> Human Playback was a thing. But I admit I'm not that fussy about playback.
>> Obviously ymmv.
>>
>> FWIW: I recompiled JW Tempo for 64-bit macOS. It works just fine in
>> MacFin25. (Basically, the Tempo Tool was removed from the F25 U.I. but not
>> the underlying support for tempo changes.) It's a free download on my
>> website if you think it might be useful. I always found it to be more what
>> I wanted out of tempo changes than the Tempo Tool.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 12:33 PM, Craig Parmerlee <cr...@parmerlee.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Tempo tool.  BIAB harmonization.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/19/2018 9:10 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
>>>
>>> Which functionality was lost v25? I've been on it so long I forgot.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ---
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