Re: RFC: DTrace probes for debugging or testing in userland programs

[Jordan Hubbard]

> On Dec 19, 2016, at 12:27 PM, Adrian Chadd  wrote:
> 
> So although I like the sentiment, I don't think using dtrace for
> program logging is the right answer.  I like what apple did to wrap
> the program logging stuff so people didn't just write their own
> libraries (hi!) and so there's a unified-ish way to interact with
> apple programs. I think we could do with that.

Thanks!

We did a number of other things with ASL (Apple System Logger) which I miss 
very much today and would hope to see in any FreeBSD equivalent:

1. We structured all log data into dictionaries, so every application and/or 
subsystem within that application can add its own “tags” without squashing 
other key information.  This also unified the character encoding format, so 
some applications were no longer logging in ISO-Latin1, others in UTF-8 and yet 
others in SHIFT-JIS.

2.  There’s also a logging database, as one of the many possible “output 
sinks”, so searches / queries are fast (and there’s an API for querying and 
managing its contents).

3. We added client-side and server side logging filters, so you can “crank an 
application up” or shut its mouth without having to make any code changes.

4. It’s all thread-safe.

- Jordan


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Re: how to reduce the size of /usr/share/i18n data?

[Jordan Hubbard]

> On Nov 3, 2016, at 1:56 PM, David Chisnall  wrote:
> 
> Is the depressing thing here that even something as recent as 386BSD 0.1 
> assumed that ASCII was enough for the whole world?

“Recent??” :-D

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Re: FreeBSD Quarterly Status Report - First Quarter 2016 (fwd)

[Jordan Hubbard]

> On May 1, 2016, at 5:49 PM, Warren Block  wrote:
> 
>   The first quarter of 2016 showed that FreeBSD retains a strong sense of
>   ipseity. Improvements were pervasive, lending credence to the concept
>   of meliorism. [ … ]

I, for one, learned at least 4 new words in that announcement, 3 of which were 
actually real.  May we all strive for greater meloristic ipseity!

I also applaud both your recent acquisition of a thesaurus and your keen 
appreciation of when to discard it and simply rely on your imagination.  it 
made an otherwise prosaic status report more provocative!  Plaudits.

- Jordan

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Re: FreeBSD Quarterly Status Report - Second Quarter 2015

[Jordan Hubbard]

 On Jul 27, 2015, at 7:32 AM, Willem Jan Withagen w...@digiware.nl wrote:
 
 You have any idea what is/was actual the hardware that was in the box?
 
 If I remember correctly we gave Jordan a check for like 5000 guilders.
 Which I guess would be 2500 us$ at that time. Which was not an enormous
 amount of money, so even more impressive that the system lasted 18 years :)

And thank you again for that donation!   We should have another conference at 
that place - I remember it was unusual to have a conference at a location that 
also supplied tools for hacking our Librettos. :)

I believe those original funds purchased a Pentium Pro system of fairly 
reasonable configuration.  As Julian says, however, the individual parts were 
replaced over the years, including the motherboard, and the freefall of today 
likely bore little resemblance to the one we purchased at the local PC shop in 
Walnut Creek, California!

- Jordan

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Re: Leaving the Desktop Market

[Jordan Hubbard]

On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:12 PM, Jim Thompson j...@netgate.com wrote:

 I have Macs at work (typing on one now), and a mac at home.  I like them.
 [ … ]
 It’s just like being back in the 80s, when Unix had a desktop market, only 
 much, much faster.

Worry not, there’s a product just for you now!  
http://www.macstories.net/mac/cathode-is-a-vintage-terminal-for-os-x/

Of course I have a copy.  I couldn’t resist buying it.

- Jordan

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Re: Leaving the Desktop Market

[Jordan Hubbard]

On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:33 PM, Person, Roderick perso...@upmc.edu wrote:

 Why aren't all the nerds and small businesses out there a market?  

Too few of you to justify the capital outlay.  Now, if we were talking about a 
$1500 watch that was very nerdy and appealed to the inner James Bond in lots of 
non-nerds, the margins might just justify it.   If Apple hardware is too 
expensive for you, there is always Windows and a cheap PC clone.  Between those 
two poles, the entirety of the desktop market is pretty much spoken for.  I get 
that there are some (mostly on these mailing lists) who don’t want either, but 
religious / personal preferences to the contrary don’t create markets until 
there are at least a few million of you.



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Re: Leaving the Desktop Market

[Jordan Hubbard]

On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:11 PM, Matt Olander m...@ixsystems.com wrote:

 This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant
 car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look
 at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of
 nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing
 pretty well.

I think you’re kind of making my point for me, Matt. :-)

Tesla benefitted entirely from deep pockets on the part of its investors.  Over 
$160M went into starting the company, of which $70M came from the personal 
checking account of Elon Musk, the current visionary and CEO, and to quote the 
wikipedia page:  Tesla Motors is a public company that trades on the NASDAQ 
stock exchange under the symbol TSLA.[5] In the first quarter of 2013, Tesla 
posted profits for the first time in its ten year history.”

Yep, in other words, Tesla has been losing money for over 10 years and only 
just started turning a profit, after raising a “mere $187M in investment and 
$485M in loans from the US DOE.  Your tax dollars at work!   On top of all that 
Tesla has only managed to make money at all by focusing exclusively the highest 
end of the luxury car market, where profit margins are also the highest (the 
first car, the roadster, would set you back $110,000).

Getting back to computer operating systems, it would make most readers of these 
lists choke on their Doritos to know how much Apple had to invest in Mac OS X 
before it became a viable desktop operating system and of course you’ve already 
seen folks screaming about how Apple gear is too expensive and they’ll never 
buy it.

You just don’t get a consumer-grade desktop Unix OS, or a practical 
all-electric sedan, without serious monetary investment and a luxury marquee to 
match, assuming you’d like to actually make any of that money *back*.

So, back to BSD on the desktop.   Anyone got a spare $200M they’d like to just 
throw away?  That’s what it’s going to take! :)

Don’t believe me?  Go ask someone who knows first-hand then.  Ask Mark 
Shuttleworth:  
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/why-ubuntus-creator-still-invests-his-fortune-in-an-unprofitable-company/

:-)

- Jordan

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Re: Leaving the Desktop Market

[Jordan Hubbard]

On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler li...@eitanadler.com wrote:

 That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
 desktop market.  FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be year of the Linux
 desktop and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for
 server or embedded use.
 
 Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
 must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the
 Linux world?

The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if it’s just 
an elaborate April Fool’s joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or Linux, for that 
matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April fool’s joke, so I’m 
willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would simply cancel each other 
out and make this posting a serious one again. :-)

I’ll choose to be serious and say what I’m about to say in spite of the fact 
that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the fact that 
it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the Jail Warden, 
Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu.

There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux.  There never has 
been and there never will be.   Why do you think we chose “the power to serve” 
as FreeBSD’s first marketing slogan?  It makes a fine server OS and it’s easy 
to defend its role in the server room.  It’s also becoming easier to defend its 
role as an embedded OS, which is another excellent niche to pursue and I am 
happy to see all the recent developments there.

A desktop?  Unless you consider Mac OS X to be “BSD on the desktop” (and while 
they share some common technologies, it’s increasingly a stretch to say that), 
it’s just never going to happen for (at least) the following reasons:

1. Power.  As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete 
top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just trying to 
idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that.  You need to optimize all 
of the hot-spot routines in the system for power efficiency (which actually 
involves a fair amount of micro architecture knowledge), you need a kernel 
scheduler that is power management aware, you need a process management system 
that runs as few things as possible and knows how to schedule things during 
package wake-up intervals, you need timers to be coalesced at the level where 
applications consume them, the list just goes on and on.  It’s a lot of 
engineering work, and to drive that work you also need a lot of telemetry data 
and people with big sticks running around hitting people who write 
power-inefficient code.  FreeBSD has neither.

2. Multimedia.  A real end-user’s desktop is basically one big UI for watching 
things, listening to things, and running apps.  A decent audio / video 
subsystem is just one part of the picture, and one that has always been really 
weak - entire engineering teams can spend years working on codecs, performance 
optimizations, low and guaranteed latency support for audio I/O, etc.  What’s 
worse, the bar is only being raised.  You want to be part of the next wave of 
folks who can author and edit content for the new 4K video standard?  Not on 
FreeBSD or Linux, you’re not.

3. Applications.  A desktop without real and useful applications is not a 
desktop, it’s just an empty display surface.  Sure, there are users out there 
who are happy with just a mail client, a web browser and maybe a calendaring 
app, but those users are also arguably even better candidates for Chrome or 
other simplified environments where all of that simply happens in a fancy web 
browser and you get things like “software updates” and cloud integration 
essentially for free since it’s all just one cohesive picture there.  The 
ability to solve those user’s needs very simply makes them ripe targets for the 
web application delivery platforms.

For the other folks who want to do fancier stuff like mix audio, edit videos or 
even just play mainstream 3D games that were actually published sometime in the 
last year, they’ll use a real desktop OS and won't even bother looking at one 
of the free ones because guess what, the free ones just can’t do those things, 
or do them badly enough that their users feel like they’re perpetually living 
in a kind of self-selected ghetto.  Metaphorically speaking, sleeping on the 
floor in a sleeping bag in your one-room apartment is fine when you’re young, 
but as you get older, you want to be more comfortable and have a real bed in a 
real house!

Those are just three reasons.  There are lots more, not least of which among 
them is the fact that it’s damn hard even just to *create* significant 
applications with the weak-ass APIs that *BSD and Linux provide.  You have to 
stitch together some Frankenstein collection of libraries out of ports (or 
linux packages) and then hope the whole pile of multi-“vendor bits will sort 
of work together, which of course they rarely do because they 

Re: ZFS txg implementation flaw

[Jordan Hubbard]

On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:28 AM, Slawa Olhovchenkov s...@zxy.spb.ru wrote:

 As I see ZFS cretate seperate thread for earch txg writing.
 Also for writing to L2ARC.
 As result -- up to several thousands threads created and destoyed per
 second. And hundreds thousands page allocations, zeroing, maping
 unmaping and freeing per seconds. Very high overhead.

How are you measuring the number of threads being created / destroyed?   This 
claim seems erroneous given how the ZFS thread pool mechanism actually works 
(and yes, there are thread pools already).

It would be helpful to both see your measurement methodology and the workload 
you are using in your tests.

- Jordan


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Re: current.freebsd.org down?

[Jordan Hubbard]

This is a different problem.  The stable.freebsd.org machine, on which
all the really big NFS storage lives, failed to come back up from a
reboot last night and I'm trying to get it restarted now.  The terminal
server also appears to be sick or I'd be able to intervene remotely. :(

- Jordan

 
  I know this is probably offtopic but is there any problem with
  current.freebsd.org at the moment?
 
 Hmm...
 
 galtvalion % ftp current.freebsd.org
 Connected to usw2.freebsd.org.
 220 usw2.freebsd.org FTP server (Version 6.00LS) ready.
 Name (current.freebsd.org:matusita): ftp
 331 Guest login ok, send your email address as password.
 Password:
 550 Can't set guest privileges.
 ftp: Login failed.
 ftp ^D
 221 Goodbye.
 galtvalion % ftp stable.freebsd.org
 ftp: connect: Connection refused
 galtvalion %
 
 Both snapshots machine are not available for services... anybody knows
 what's going on?
 
 -- -
 Makoto `MAR' Matsushita
 
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Re: anon ftp access at current

[Jordan Hubbard]

No, the NFS server it depends on is down.  Still working on getting it
back up.

 
 I am trying to install one of the -current snapshots, but
 current.freebsd.org doesn't seem to want to let me log in as anonymous
 (some problem saying it cannot set guest access).  Has the procedure
 changed to get -current?
 
 thanks
 -j
 
 
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Re: anon ftp access at current

[Jordan Hubbard]

No, the NFS server it depends on is down.  Still working on getting it
back up.

 
 I am trying to install one of the -current snapshots, but
 current.freebsd.org doesn't seem to want to let me log in as anonymous
 (some problem saying it cannot set guest access).  Has the procedure
 changed to get -current?
 
 thanks
 -j
 
 
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Re: current.freebsd.org down?

[Jordan Hubbard]

This is a different problem.  The stable.freebsd.org machine, on which
all the really big NFS storage lives, failed to come back up from a
reboot last night and I'm trying to get it restarted now.  The terminal
server also appears to be sick or I'd be able to intervene remotely. :(

- Jordan

 
  I know this is probably offtopic but is there any problem with
  current.freebsd.org at the moment?
 
 Hmm...
 
 galtvalion % ftp current.freebsd.org
 Connected to usw2.freebsd.org.
 220 usw2.freebsd.org FTP server (Version 6.00LS) ready.
 Name (current.freebsd.org:matusita): ftp
 331 Guest login ok, send your email address as password.
 Password:
 550 Can't set guest privileges.
 ftp: Login failed.
 ftp ^D
 221 Goodbye.
 galtvalion % ftp stable.freebsd.org
 ftp: connect: Connection refused
 galtvalion %
 
 Both snapshots machine are not available for services... anybody knows
 what's going on?
 
 -- -
 Makoto `MAR' Matsushita
 
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Re: Motion for removal of xargs(1) from base system

[Jordan Hubbard]

My, is it April 1st already?  How quickly time flies!  December feels
like it was just yesterday!

- Jordan

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Re: PATCH: sysinstall to remove userconfig code

[Jordan Hubbard]

Looks good to me, I'd say commit it!

- Jordan

 dsyphers DEBUG: kget: error buffer sizing
 matusita This is because sysinstall still want to get userconfig data
 matusita and put the result to /boot/kernel.conf.
 
 Userconfig was gone in 5-current, so we can safely remove kget() from
 sysinstall.  Attached below is a patch to do (kget.c should be remove
 also).
 
 Jordan (and others who may concern), would you please review my patch?
 
 -- -
 Makoto `MAR' Matsushita
 
 Index: Makefile
 ===
 RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/Makefile,v
 retrieving revision 1.117
 diff -u -r1.117 Makefile
 --- Makefile  2001/09/05 07:12:19 1.117
 +++ Makefile  2001/11/13 18:12:37
 @@ -2,7 +2,7 @@
  
  PROG=sysinstall
  MAN= sysinstall.8
 -SRCS=anonFTP.c cdrom.c command.c config.c devices.c dhcp.c kget.c \
 +SRCS=anonFTP.c cdrom.c command.c config.c devices.c dhcp.c \
   disks.c dispatch.c dist.c dmenu.c doc.c dos.c floppy.c \
   ftp.c globals.c http.c index.c install.c installUpgrade.c keymap.c \
   label.c main.c makedevs.c media.c menus.c misc.c modules.c \
 Index: install.c
 ===
 RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/install.c,v
 retrieving revision 1.309
 diff -u -r1.309 install.c
 --- install.c 2001/10/20 09:28:53 1.309
 +++ install.c 2001/11/13 18:12:37
 @@ -755,14 +755,6 @@
  /* All of this is done only as init, just to be safe */
  if (RunningAsInit) {
  #ifdef __i386__
 -/* Snapshot any boot -c changes back to the new kernel */
 - cp = variable_get(VAR_KGET);
 - if (cp  (*cp == 'Y' || *cp == 'y')) {
 - if ((kstat = kget(/boot/kernel.conf)) != NULL) {
 - msgConfirm(Unable to save boot -c changes to new kernel,\n
 -please see the debug screen (ALT-F2) for details.)
;
 - }
 - }
   if ((fp = fopen(/boot/loader.conf, a)) != NULL) {
   if (!kstat || !OnVTY)
   fprintf(fp, # -- sysinstall generated deltas -- #\n);
 @@ -1054,7 +1046,6 @@
  /* Set default startup options */
  variable_set2(VAR_RELNAME,   getRelname(), 0);
  variable_set2(VAR_CPIO_VERBOSITY,high, 0);
 -variable_set2(VAR_KGET,  YES, 0);
  variable_set2(VAR_TAPE_BLOCKSIZE,DEFAULT_TAPE_BLOCKSIZE,
 0);
  variable_set2(VAR_INSTALL_ROOT,  /, 0);
  variable_set2(VAR_INSTALL_CFG,   install.cfg, 0);
 Index: options.c
 ===
 RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/options.c,v
 retrieving revision 1.76
 diff -u -r1.76 options.c
 --- options.c 2001/09/25 00:28:26 1.76
 +++ options.c 2001/11/13 18:12:37
 @@ -148,8 +148,6 @@
OPT_IS_VAR,NEWFS_PROMPT,   VAR_NEWFS_ARGS, varChec
k   },
  { Fixit Console,   Which tty to use for the Fixit action.,
OPT_IS_FUNC,   fixitTtyWhich,  VAR_FIXIT_TTY,  varChec
k   },
 -{ Config save, Whether or not to save installation kernel config chan
ges,
 -  OPT_IS_VAR,NULL,   VAR_KGET,   varChec
k   },
  { Re-scan Devices, Re-run sysinstall's initial device probe,
OPT_IS_FUNC,   deviceRescan },
  { Use Defaults,Reset all values to startup defaults,
 Index: sysinstall.h
 ===
 RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/sysinstall.h,v
 retrieving revision 1.218
 diff -u -r1.218 sysinstall.h
 --- sysinstall.h  2001/10/12 22:39:02 1.218
 +++ sysinstall.h  2001/11/13 18:12:38
 @@ -126,7 +126,6 @@
  #define VAR_IPV6_ENABLE  ipv6_enable
  #define VAR_IPV6ADDR ipv6addr
  #define VAR_KEYMAP   keymap
 -#define VAR_KGET kget
  #define VAR_LABELlabel
  #define VAR_LABEL_COUNT  labelCount
  #define VAR_LINUX_ENABLE linux_enable


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Re: PATCH: sysinstall to remove userconfig code

[Jordan Hubbard]

 BTW, how dou you think my other patch (use 'devfs' while mounting
 filesystems, use fsck_ffs instead of fsck) for sysinstall, which was
 posted about a week before to [EMAIL PROTECTED]?  You can fetch from:
 
 URL:http://people.freebsd.org/~matusita/5.0-CURRENT-20011121-JPSNAP_usedevfs
/patch

Hmmm.  To be honest, at least one part doesn't make too much sense to
me.

In the quoted section, where you move up the code for copying the
initial /dev files from the mfsroot to the new on-disk root, you then
proceed to mount a devfs instance right over it.  Don't you want to
try the devfs mount and only copy device files if that returns an
error code?  You're just going to do extra work and then cover it up
otherwise. :-)


+ 
+   dialog_clear_norefresh();
+   msgNotify(Copying initial device files..);
+   /* Copy the boot floppy's dev files */
+   if ((root-newfs || upgrade)  vsystem(find -x /dev | cpio %s -pdum /mnt, 
+cpioVerbosity())) {
+   msgConfirm(Couldn't clone the /dev files!);
+   return DITEM_FAILURE | DITEM_RESTORE;
+   }
+ 
+   /* Mount devfs for other partitions to mount */
+   Mkdir(/mnt/dev);
+   if (!Fake)
+   mount(devfs, /mnt/dev, 0, NULL);
  }

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Re: PATCH: sysinstall to remove userconfig code

[Jordan Hubbard]

 I don't know -current. what is the feature which replace kget ?

There is none.

 does boot -c (or whatever) still exists ? is it possible to
 edit KERNEL.hints at boot time ?

No.

- Jordan

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Re: kern.flp blown out again

[Jordan Hubbard]

 If you mean what I mean, that guy was Polish, and that stuff still sits in
 the tree:

Yeah, that was it, sorry - I'm always getting Germany and Poland mixed
up!  No, not really, please don't hit! ;)

That's cool - I should look at this.  A perfect excuse to pick up
forth again, I think.

- Jordan

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current.freebsd.org successfully building snapshots again

[Jordan Hubbard]

drwxr-xr-x  20 root  wheel  1024 Oct 11 22:17 5.0-20011011-CURRENT

Come 'n get it.  No warrantees stated or implied as to how far these
bits get you after you transfer them, of course. :)

- Jordan

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Re: For your amusement..

[Jordan Hubbard]

Amusement?  Excitement you mean! :-)

That's REALLY a significant milestone and the IA-64 is by no means a
simple architecture to come to grips with.  My hat is off (yet again)
to Doug!  I think that makes two 64 bit architecture ports he's now
had a lot to do with. :)

- Jordan

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Re: current install failure

[Jordan Hubbard]

As you've already noticed, sysinstall basically tries to create the
device nodes it needs under the old assumption that /dev will be
mostly empty.  Now that devfs is the default, phk needs to update
libdisk so that it doesn't attempt to make the device nodes in this
way.  Fortunately, the person who wrote libdisk is also the same
person who made devfs the default, so this ball is very clearly in his
court. :-)

- Jordan

 I tried to install current snapshot as of October 2, 2001 from
 current.jp.FreeBSD.org, but it seems to fail at
 sysinstall.c:installFilesystems().
 
 The function installFilesystems() calls MakeDevChunk() of
 lib/libdisk/create_chunk.c, which then calls mknod(2) via
 MakeDev(). The error message I see come from MakeDev() which, after
 mknod(2) failure, says:
   mknod of /dev/rad0a1b returned failure status!
 Typing `mount' from fixit shell, the install kernel of the Octover
 2nd's snapshot has devfs enabled.
 I could start installation with the snapshot of September 11, with
 which devfs seems to be disabled (I do not see devfs on /dev (devfs,
 local) by typing `mount' on the fixit shell).
 
 Is there any way to install current with recent snapshots' install floppies?
 
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Re: current install failure

[Jordan Hubbard]

sysinstall, by design, knows very little about devices.  It uses
libdisk(3) as the abstraction for dealing with all disks in
particular.

 * Jordan Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011003 15:33] wrote:
  As you've already noticed, sysinstall basically tries to create the
  device nodes it needs under the old assumption that /dev will be
  mostly empty.  Now that devfs is the default, phk needs to update
  libdisk so that it doesn't attempt to make the device nodes in this
  way.  Fortunately, the person who wrote libdisk is also the same
  person who made devfs the default, so this ball is very clearly in his
  court. :-)
 
 Just reminding you all that phk's suggested way of finding this
 information out is to test for the presense of the devfs sysctl as
 done in vinum.
 
 If libdisk does it a different way, then vinum should be updated.
 
 -- 
 -Alfred Perlstein [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 'Instead of asking why a piece of software is using 1970s technology,
 start asking why software is ignoring 30 years of accumulated wisdom.'

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Re: current install failure

[Jordan Hubbard]

Well, since I don't own libdisk(3) and had no idea why you'd be
addressing this to me unless you were still confused, I presumed you
were confused.  In any case, you need to be talking to phk about this.

- Jordan

From: Alfred Perlstein [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: current install failure
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:12:21 -0500

   * Jordan Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011003 15:33] wrote:
As you've already noticed, sysinstall basically tries to create the
device nodes it needs under the old assumption that /dev will be
mostly empty.  Now that devfs is the default, phk needs to update
libdisk so that it doesn't attempt to make the device nodes in this
way.  Fortunately, the person who wrote libdisk is also the same
person who made devfs the default, so this ball is very clearly in his
court. :-)
   
   Just reminding you all that phk's suggested way of finding this
   information out is to test for the presense of the devfs sysctl as
   done in vinum.
   
   If libdisk does it a different way, then vinum should be updated.
 
 --^^^
 
 * Jordan Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011003 15:51] wrote:
  sysinstall, by design, knows very little about devices.  It uses
  libdisk(3) as the abstraction for dealing with all disks in
  particular.
 
 fed ex commercial
 You just said the same thing that I did except you did this...
 
   *makes up/down hand waving motion*
 /fed ex commercial
 
 :-)
 

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reinstatement of MSDOSFS on boot floppy fails

[Jordan Hubbard]

sh -e /usr/src/release/scripts/doFS.sh /R/stage/floppies/kern.flp  /R/stage /mnt 1440 
/R/stage/image.kern  8 fd1440
disklabel: ioctl DIOCWLABEL: Operation not supported by device
Warning: Block size restricts cylinders per group to 6.
Warning: 1216 sector(s) in last cylinder unallocated
/dev/md0c:  2880 sectors in 1 cylinders of 1 tracks, 4096 sectors
1.4MB in 1 cyl groups (6 c/g, 12.00MB/g, 32 i/g)
super-block backups (for fsck -b #) at:
 32
cpio: write error: No space left on device
*** Error code 1

We're back where we started.  The other stuff wasn't enough.

- Jordan

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Re: reinstatement of MSDOSFS on boot floppy fails

[Jordan Hubbard]

Sure, I just don't have time to work on this right now.

- jordan

 
 D'ya think it might be time for a 3rd floppy?
 
 
 On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote:
 
  sh -e /usr/src/release/scripts/doFS.sh /R/stage/floppies/kern.flp  /R/stage /mnt 
1440 /R/stage/image.kern  8 fd1440
  disklabel: ioctl DIOCWLABEL: Operation not supported by device
  Warning: Block size restricts cylinders per group to 6.
  Warning: 1216 sector(s) in last cylinder unallocated
  /dev/md0c:  2880 sectors in 1 cylinders of 1 tracks, 4096 sectors
  1.4MB in 1 cyl groups (6 c/g, 12.00MB/g, 32 i/g)
  super-block backups (for fsck -b #) at:
   32
  cpio: write error: No space left on device
  *** Error code 1
  
  We're back where we started.  The other stuff wasn't enough.
  
  - Jordan
  
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Re: NIS client performance seems very poor under network load

[Jordan Hubbard]

 Maybe I keep pushing on this issue because there have been times in
 the past where FreeBSD has been prepared to pay programmers to write
 critical project progressing pieces of code.

Well if that's your rationale then you can stop pushing because I can
state categorically that FreeBSD doesn't have any money for that
kind of thing and never really did.  Rather, various organizations
with close ties to the FreeBSD project did, on occasion, pay
programmers to write code which coincidently met both the needs of the
organization and were in popular demand.  Unfortunately, those times
and even some of those organizations are now dead.  The cappucino
makers have been packed up, the Audi TT Roadsters out front reposessed
and the fancy lumbar-supporting programmers chairs actioned off by
disappointed venture capitalists.  The year is now 2001.  Please
update your mental model. :-)

- Jordan

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Re: NIS client performance seems very poor under network load

[Jordan Hubbard]

Progress in these types of situations nearly always comes from people
with enough self-interest in the problem area to actually commit to
working on it.  Rather than asking for people who have written an
autofsd to step forward, why not instead start working on this project
yourselves and ask for volunteers to HELP you address the problem?
That's taking on the problem from the right end, IMHO.

- Jordan

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Re: ~/.login_conf disabling exact reasons wanted

[Jordan Hubbard]

The bug doesn't exist in 4.4 either.  It was fixed prior to release.
Doesn't anyone read commit mail anymore?! :-(

- Jordan

 Thus spake Andrey A. Chernov ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 
  Please, read me carefully. This bug not exist in -current, where it is
  disabled by mistake via commit I complain. I not test other branches, I
 
 Err, the bugtraq message explicelty says 4.4.  Even worse if it only
 exists in the production-branch.
 
 Alex
 

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kern.flp blown out again

[Jordan Hubbard]

I don't know what the KSE commit added (or if it was even anything
more than bad timing), but we've hit the limit on the kernel floppy
again (x86):

Setting up /boot directory for kern floppy
/R/stage/image.kern/kernel:  53.9% -- replaced with /R/stage/image.kern/kern
el.gz
sh -e /usr/src/release/scripts/doFS.sh /R/stage/floppies/kern.flp  /R/stage /mnt
 1440 /R/stage/image.kern  8 fd1440
disklabel: ioctl DIOCWLABEL: Operation not supported by device
Warning: Block size restricts cylinders per group to 6.
Warning: 1216 sector(s) in last cylinder unallocated
/dev/md0c:  2880 sectors in 1 cylinders of 1 tracks, 4096 sectors
1.4MB in 1 cyl groups (6 c/g, 12.00MB/g, 32 i/g)
super-block backups (for fsck -b #) at:
 32
cpio: write error: No space left on device
*** Error code 1

Any new device drivers added in the last day or so?

- Jordan

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Re: kern.flp blown out again

[Jordan Hubbard]

 Hm. Isn't this a strong sign that something fundamental must be done
 about the boot floppy process? Alpha has been suffering from this longer
 already due to the bigger binaries. 

Hey, be my guest, just so long as we can install from whatever you
come up with. :-) Seriously, the fact that it needs fundamental fixing
is why we're still using what we do.  It's just easier to keep
band-aiding it, as ugly a scenario as that might be.

- Jordan

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Re: current.freebsd.org

[Jordan Hubbard]

First we had hardware problems, then NFS was broken on the cluster for
awhile, preventing current.freebsd.org from getting at the CVS
repository.  It's fixed now and I see that a snapshot is building
as we speak.

- Jordan

From: Alexey Zelkin
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: current.freebsd.org Date: Fri, 7 Sep
2001 19:49:56 +0300

 hi,
 
 Is there any reason why 5.0-RELEASE snapshots are not building/uploading
 to current.freebsd.org for about 3 months ? Latest i386 snapshot is
 20010618.
 
 
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Re: HEADS UP: ACPI CHANGES AFFECTING MOST -CURRENT USERS

[Jordan Hubbard]

Are you guys on crack?  Scheme is just a dialect of LISP, where LISP
could also just as easily be any one of MacLisp, InterLisp, Franz
Lisp, Common Lisp or one of many other possibilities.  The very
acronym lacks specific meaning without an additional qualifier.
Scheme can also dynamically build and evaluate data as code just as
well as any other LISP dialect.  Somebody needs to go back and take a
CS class or something. :-)

- Jordan

From: Jim Bryant [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: HEADS UP: ACPI CHANGES AFFECTING MOST -CURRENT USERS
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 00:58:25 -0500

 FreeBSD Fanatic wrote:
 
 Show us a suitable LISP interpreter, then.
 
 $ cd ~/lang/Scheme/tinyscm-1.27
 $ size scheme 
textdata bss dec hex filename
   6134244763480   69298   10eb2 scheme
 
  
  Is that statically-linked?  I'm curious to know the size of the bootloader
  forth footprint.  The loader is about 150k, so I'm sure you could probably
  fit a nice Scheme interpreter in under that size... ??
  
  
 Tinyscheme is a mostly complete R5RS Scheme (R5RS is the
 
  
  You can also conditionally-compile the components to make a smaller
  footprint.  I'm highly in favor of Scheme replacing 4th...  It's a very
  easy language to learn (only 11 special forms) yet still powerful (you
  can't pass code as data in BASIC ;).  If you replace the boot loader
  interpreter, pick Scheme over LISP.  There are lots of implementations:
  siod, scm, mit-scheme, MzScheme, and tinyscheme are among the better ones.
  
  --Rick C. Petty,  aka Snoopy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 I still think that Scheme has far less proficient programmers than LISP.
 
 BTW: In LISP, *EVERYTHING* is data.  LISP was executing data as code and writing 
self-replicating programs around 1951 or 1952.
 
 
 jim
 -- 
  ET has one helluva sense of humor!
 He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos!
 
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
 
 
 _
 Do You Yahoo!?
 Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
 
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Re: HEADS UP: ACPI CHANGES AFFECTING MOST -CURRENT USERS

[Jordan Hubbard]

From: Daniel C. Sobral [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: HEADS UP: ACPI CHANGES AFFECTING MOST -CURRENT USERS
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 15:55:16 -0300

 I myself questioned the wisdom of using Forth at the time, and Jordan 
 simply replied I was free to find a more popular language with a freely 
 available interpreter that would fit in as small a space as FICL did.

I also have to question the assertion that the community of people who
understand or have even a passing familiarity with this sort of thing
[a forth-based loader] is miniscule.  OpenBoot, for example, is
entirely forth-based (c.f. Mitch Bradley). Every machine Sun has ever
shipped in any serious quantity has OpenBoot as its loader.  Every
machine Apple has shipped within recent memory also has OpenBoot as
its loader.  Between those two companies, they have shipped millions
of OpenBoot-using machines and have a combined userbase which probably
exceeds FreeBSD's by quite a few million.

FreeBSD is simply following an well-established trend for boot loaders
here rather than going its own way, and if we were to use Ruby as our
boot loader then I'm sure a lot of Japanese people would be very happy
but it would also make us utterly unique, a decision of even more
questionable wisdom.

- Jordan

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Re: Build problem in -current

[Jordan Hubbard]

If you think that's an acceptable work-around then by all means
commit it.  Thanks!

- Jordan

From: Bruce Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Build problem in -current
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 21:36:46 +1000 (EST)

 On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote:
 
  cd /usr/src/usr.bin/xinstall; make _EXTRADEPEND
  echo xinstall: /usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/lib/libc.a   .depend
  cc -O -pipe-I/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include  -c /usr/src/usr.bin/xinstall
  /xinstall.c
  cc -O -pipe-I/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include   -static -o xinstall xinstal
  l.o
  xinstall.o: In function `main':
  xinstall.o(.text+0x83): undefined reference to `strtofflags'
  *** Error code 1
 
  This is from a relatively old -current coming up to a new (today's)
  -current.  I suspect somebody added a call for install yet forgot to
  alter the bootstrap tools target accordingly (or did but in the wrong
  place).  Thanks.
 
 Index: Makefile
 ===
 RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/usr.bin/xinstall/Makefile,v
 retrieving revision 1.15
 diff -u -2 -r1.15 Makefile
 --- Makefile  2 Apr 2001 11:54:59 -   1.15
 +++ Makefile  3 Sep 2001 11:18:33 -
 @@ -2,6 +2,9 @@
  # $FreeBSD: src/usr.bin/xinstall/Makefile,v 1.15 2001/04/02 11:54:59 ru Exp $
 
 +.PATH: ${.CURDIR}/../../lib/libc/gen
 +
  PROG=xinstall
  PROGNAME=install
 +SRCS=strtofflags.c xinstall.c
  MAN= install.1
 
 Unfixed bugs: this will have to be fixed better before turning on WARNS.
 strtofflags() won't be declared in the host includes if the host libraries
 don't have it.  Similarly in mtree (where I obtained this fix from) and
 in any other tools that use strtofflags().  All these bugs were missing in
 the old versions that used ls's version of strtofflags.
 
 Nearby bugs: mtree/Makefile uses !defined(WORLD) to avoid depending on
 the host having libmd, but someone removed the definition of WORLD from
 src/Makefile.inc1.
 
 Bruce
 
 
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Build problem in -current

[Jordan Hubbard]

cd /usr/src/usr.bin/xinstall; make _EXTRADEPEND
echo xinstall: /usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/lib/libc.a   .depend
cc -O -pipe-I/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include  -c /usr/src/usr.bin/xinstall
/xinstall.c
cc -O -pipe-I/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include   -static -o xinstall xinstal
l.o
xinstall.o: In function `main':
xinstall.o(.text+0x83): undefined reference to `strtofflags'
*** Error code 1

This is from a relatively old -current coming up to a new (today's)
-current.  I suspect somebody added a call for install yet forgot to
alter the bootstrap tools target accordingly (or did but in the wrong
place).  Thanks.

- Jordan

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Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up!

[Jordan Hubbard]

This project has always been more than just its core developers,
whomever they might be at any one time (and if history has shown us
anything, it's that it's a constantly changing cast).  This means that
anyone is free to chime in with their opinion on any project decision,
just as the people doing the work being commented on are free to
ignore or implement those suggestions as they see fit.  What we don't
get to do is violently squelch the opinions of anyone we disagree with
and I'm somewhat appalled that you've felt compelled to go this far in
your reply - it's really totally contrary to what this project really
stands for and if you don't see that, it's time you took a much-needed
vacation.

If you want to disagree with someone's position, you can state your
disagreement directly (I think this will jeopardize and slow down the
SMPng work and I strongly disagree with Jim's suggestion) without
calling into question their very right to express an opinion.
Nobody's given you that kind of authority and no one likely ever will
since censorship and an open development atmosphere are mutually
exclusive concepts.  For shame, David!

- Jordan


From: David O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Headsup! KSE Nay-sayers speak up!
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:43:13 -0700

 On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 03:13:19PM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote:
 
  Count my vote as a go-for-it.
 
 Blah.  You're vote doesn't mean jack in this.
 Unless you are one actively working on the 5-CURRENT kernel (SMPng
 specifically), or are funding 5-CURRENT kernel development; you really
 don't have any right to say go for it.
 
 Don't write cheques your body can't cash.  Quincy Jones's The Dude.
 
 Committing KSE now could easily get in the way of the one person doing
 SMPng work.  Do you really want to jeopardize and slowdown that work?
 
 -- 
 -- David  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   Disclaimer: Not speaking for FreeBSD, just expressing my own opinion.
 
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Re: Why is csh tcsh? This can be a bad thing...

[Jordan Hubbard]

From: Jim Bryant [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Why is csh tcsh?  This can be a bad thing...
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:23:01 -0500

 Because of certain differences, it cannot be used wholesale as a
 replacement for csh.

Then please enumerate them so that they can be given due attention.
This is exactly the sort of detailed feedback that was requested when
we first raised the issue of switching over, and nobody could come up
with any concrete differences that would cause harm, so the deed was
done.

- Jordan


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iso target in release/Makefile

[Jordan Hubbard]

H.  I'm not sure why this reinvents a lot of the wheel in the
already existing iso.1 target.  Could you explain its purpose a little
better as well as why you didn't simply conditionalize the iso.1
target in some way if it didn't currently suit?  As it is, we have
two targets now and that doesn't make much sense, to say nothing
of the asthetics.  Thanks.

- Jordan


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Re: iso target in release/Makefile

[Jordan Hubbard]

From: David O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: iso target in release/Makefile
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:06:34 -0700

 It is part of a patch set I sent you for review.

And that patch looks good - please commit it and then merge the
resulting changes into RELENG_4 if you get the chance.  Thanks!

- Jordan

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Re: iso target in release/Makefile

[Jordan Hubbard]

From: David O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: iso target in release/Makefile
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:43:16 -0700

 You didn't MFC the iso.1 target.  We are all building releases on
 RELENG_4 right now :-) (-current releases have been broken for quite a
 while).  Thus my patch was developed on RELENG_4 and only committed to
 current so I could as the RE about MFC'ing it.

Uh, no offense, but that explanation makes absolutely NO sense
whatsoever!  If you'd developed something independently in RELENG_4
and only considered it applicable to that branch, then it would NOT go
into -current for obvious reasons, especially if it was a duplication
of something already there.  What you'd do instead is either commit it
only to RELENG_4 (and there is some precedent for that) or you'd ask
for an MFC of the feature which was already in -current.

Please back this out, it's ugly and wrong.  Thanks!  I'll be happy
to MFC the pre-existing stuff if such is wanted.

- Jordan

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Re: no new snapshot onftp://current.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/i386/

[Jordan Hubbard]

No, the machine is dead and we haven't managed to get a replacement
going yet.  Hopefully in late August, as soon as everyone involved is
back from vacation.

- Jordan

From: Wolfram Schneider [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: no new snapshot on ftp://current.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/i386/
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 16:59:13 +0200

 Hi,
 
 the last -current snapshot is 6 weeks old. 
 ftp://current.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/i386/5.0-20010618-CURRENT/,
 
 What happens? Is -current now so unstable that we cannot
 make a snapshot anymore?
 
   -Wolfram
 
 -- 
 Wolfram Schneider [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wolfram.schneider.org
 
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Re: No more snapshots of -CURRENT?

[Jordan Hubbard]

No, it simply means that the machine has been too ill to make
snapshots for awhile.  We're in the process of replacing it, but
everyone involved has been really busy. :(

- Jordan

From: John Indra [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: No more snapshots of -CURRENT?
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:50:34 +0700

 Hi all...
 
 I have been visiting current.freebsd.org for the past weeks, and see no
 newer i386 snapshots then 20010618. Does it mean -CURRENT is in no stable
 condition right now?
 
 tq
 
 /john
 Live Free OR Die
 
 
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Re: No more snapshots of -CURRENT?

[Jordan Hubbard]

From: Peter Wemm [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: No more snapshots of -CURRENT? 
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 05:49:59 -0700

 Actually, I think we just need to pester jkh nicely to get somebody to 
 copy over the stable build script, s/stable/current/, s/-rRELENG_4/-A/
 and fire it up.

I'm willing to do it, we just need to coordinate with the Qwest folks
since I still can't even get into the (new) box. :)

- Jordan

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Re: chgrp broken on alpha systems

[Jordan Hubbard]

Since David's busy, I'm working on it now.  Just some build issues to
be worked out since warnings were made fatal recently.

- Jordan

From: Matthew Jacob [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: chgrp broken on alpha systems
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:17:51 -0700 (PDT)

 
 David claimed he would upgrade beast at some point- but he's pretty
 busy.
 
 1. If I had the authority to do so, I'd drive over to Concord and do it.
 I can do that next week some time.
 
 2. If I had  144KBit DSL, I'd pay the extra power bills and leave up a
 PC164 at Feral all the time for people to do this.
 
 3. If I had the ability to sweet talk the NASA/Ames folks, I'd leave a
 machine there up all the time.
 
 If beast can't be upgraded soon, and #1 can't happen, I will make #2
 happen. I have two PC164s- and one could just be left up all the time.
 
 On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Kris Kennaway wrote:
 
  On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:00:09AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:
   Matthew Jacob [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
it's just the same old same old refrain of beast is broken or
oh well, etc. etc. etc but yer right, insulting does no
good.
   
I beg too much hard cider at dinner. It makes the veins in the forehead
swell and makes one impatient.
  
   I have no problem with that :)  And beast isn't broken, it's just that
   its bsd.*.mk files are too old to test WARNS patches.
 
  Actually, you can work around this if you set enough environment
  variables, but it certainly is annoying to do.
 
  Kris
 
 
 
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Re: chgrp broken on alpha systems

[Jordan Hubbard]

Well, unless implicit pointer-to-int conversions have suddenly become
fatal, it blew up on something that just got fixed (I went to commit
the fix and found that someone else had already done so in the last 12
hours).  The world build has been restarted and is running again.

- Jordan

From: Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: chgrp broken on alpha systems
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:22:27 -0700

 On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:12:22PM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote:
  Since David's busy, I'm working on it now.  Just some build issues to
  be worked out since warnings were made fatal recently.
 
 What problems?  There shouldn't be any fatalities from warnings unless
 people have marked something with WARNS prematurely.
 
 Kris

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Re: current.freebsd.org down?

[Jordan Hubbard]

Yes, it is.  I'm trying to get it back online but it needs a hard reset
since it's wedged beyond the point where I can do anything useful
from the serial console.

- Jordan

From: John Doe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: current.freebsd.org down?
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:33:52 -0700 (PDT)

 is current.freebsd.org down?
 
 __
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 Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
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Re: [david@catwhisker.org: Re: current.freebsd.org down?] (fwd)

[Jordan Hubbard]

Thanks, this is my fault too given that I tried to fix it myself
and didn't raise it with you earlier. :(

From: Mark M. Lutgen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: current.freebsd.org down?] (fwd)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:20:55 -0500 (CDT)

 I was just told about this and should have the box back up and running
 shortly.
 
 Mark
 
 
 Mark M. Lutgen |  E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Acting Manager, Core Systems Engineering   |  Fax.  (612) 664-4770
 Qwest Internet Solutions   |  Voice.(612) 664-3332
 
 -- Forwarded message --
 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:44:13 -0500
 From: Pete McKenna [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Mark Lutgen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: current.freebsd.org down?]
 
 FYI
 
 Pete
 
 -- 
 Peter McKenna Qwest Internet Solutions
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Main 612-664-4000
   FAX 612-664-4770
 
 
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Re: symlink(2) [Was: Re: tcsh.cat]

[Jordan Hubbard]

From: Matt Dillon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: symlink(2) [Was: Re: tcsh.cat]
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 22:01:47 -0700 (PDT)

 Symlinks do not have to contain paths.  People use them for all sorts
 of things so it would be totally inappropriate to put any sort of

True.  It would break phk's malloc debugging features to disable this,
for example.

- Jordan

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Re: Mirror ?

[Jordan Hubbard]

Not to my knowledge, though anyone is free to create one.

- Jordan

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stefan Carstens)
Subject: Mirror ?
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:03:47 +0200

 Are there mirrors of current.freebsd.org available ?
 

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Re: dual athlons

[Jordan Hubbard]

From: Kenneth Wayne Culver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: dual athlons
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 16:18:13 -0400 (EDT)

 Just curious, but are there plans to support the EV6 bus that the dual
 athlon motherboards use? I'm not going to buy that kind of system unless
 FreeBSD 5 will support it.

Both FreeBSD 4 and 5 already support it.

- Jordan

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Re: sysinstall and wrong /etc/ttys types

[Jordan Hubbard]

Look through the cvs history for sysinstall - you'll see that it
already had much of that already, back around 2.0.5 I think.  It
was eventually removed again due to disuse.

- Jordan

From: Andrey A. Chernov [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: sysinstall and wrong /etc/ttys types
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 12:06:57 +0400

 The only thing left to make sysinstall localized setting working is adding
 code to fix /etc/ttys terminal types which in current variant is stuck to
 cons25 only producing wrong vt100 pseudographics for Latin* and KOI8-*
 users. I e. some code which replace cons25 in /etc/ttys according to this
 font table:
 
 Latin1: cons25l1
 Latin2: cons25l2
 KOI8-R: cons25r
 KOI8-U: cons25u
 
 (including screenmapped variants, of course)
 
 I don't know sysinstall deep enough for that. Any takers?
 
 -- 
 Andrey A. Chernov
 http://ache.pp.ru/
 
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Re: sysinstall and wrong /etc/ttys types

[Jordan Hubbard]

 Could you please be more specific on what you mean by disuse? I.e. what
 was the problem with that stuff and what goes wrong? Do you against its
 resurrection by what reasons?

E.g. we went and translated a bunch of the *.TXT files into various
languages (among them Russian) and then gave sysinstall the ability to
change the screen map, terminal type and keyboard mapping according to
a global language setting.  That survived for exactly one release
after we realized that we didn't have the infrastructure necessary to
translate those documents on an ongoing basis.  It was sort of an
experiment anyway, so nobody really cried when we took it back out.

But I'm not against it's resurrection.  That was then, these days we
have quite a bit more infrastructure and a better translation process.
Also, thanks to Mr. Mah, the *.TXT files have finally been integrated
into our overall docs and are thus far easier to generate international
versions of.

- Jordan

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Re: pgm to kill 4.3 via vm

[Jordan Hubbard]

 You'll see a detailed analysis soon, patches will come only
 after we've agreed on a way to fix the problem.

You've already had some folks respond to this, though I think the
argument has been mischaracterized as a BSD vs Linux thing.  It's
not.

What people are (IMHO) really trying to argue here is the pragmatic
approach.  You can't really agree on a way to fix the problem when
your operating criteria are as vague as the existing system doesn't
work, we need to fix it.  That's like saying that putting someone
into orbit is a simple matter of determining what escape velocity is
necessary from an object with earth's mass and deciding how many tons
of payload you want to insert at what altitude.  The devil is, as they
say, all in the details and all people here want is the necessary
level of detail.

Software is also largely an operational art where it's easier to
describe something through a body of code with accompanying comments
than it is to try and describe it on a purely theoretical basis.  You
don't need to necessarily adopt that code, it simply provides you with
a more solid framework in which to discuss ways to fix the problem
and that is what I believe Alfred and others are basically asking for.
It's a reasonable request.

- Jordan

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Re: PATCH: partial fix for broken make release...

[Jordan Hubbard]

From: Terry Lambert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: PATCH: partial fix for broken make release...
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:00:37 + (GMT)

 The make release stuff is broken, at least in 4.3, and possibly
 before that.
 
 There are several obviously broken things:
 
 o The libssh stuff is not installed, and it is not built

That would be a failure in make world, not make release.

 o The files jade_1.2.1-13.diff.gz and pdf_sec.ps are not
   available from any of the listed mirros in the ports

That would be a failure in the ports collection, not make release.

I don't make both observations to be pedantic, but to simply make it
clear that the correct fixes need to happen somewhere else.

 o If you set KERNCONF to a non-default value (GENERIC is
   the default value), then sysinstall can't find it to

I'm not clear as to why you'd want to?  GENERIC is the best kernel for
creating generally useable releases, but I imagine you have some other
reason for chosing a specific configuration for which I also expect
you're copying the config file into ${CHROOTDIR}/usr/src/sys/${ARCH}/conf
from somewhere else?  I can't see how this change by itself makes what
appears to be the desired functionality a reality.

- Jordan

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Re: HEADS UP! bad bug in -current.

[Jordan Hubbard]

 Say, FreeBSD is usually pretty safe, even in CURRENT.
 Has something near this magnitude of Really Bad Stuffage snuck into the
 codebase before?

No, it's not common, and it generally takes a Dane swinging something
sharp to inflict quite this much damage on our user base. ;-)

- Jordan

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Re: Updated: cp -t patch (w/ commentary)

[Jordan Hubbard]

 However, a specific hack to cp(1) is what a lot of people don't like.
 If FreeBSD contained every little hack every committer had used to
 address specific problems, it'd be a mess.

I was told that the hack everyone is referring to is already
implemented in several other operating systems, but I must confess
that my searches so far haven't turned up the expected evidence.  I
did find a rather useful `-u' flag to cp in Redhat 6.2 which FreeBSD
could probably stand to adopt, but other than that...  I may have to
reverse myself on this one if I can't find at least one other vendor
which has adopted -t.

- Jordan

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Re: cp -d dir patch for review (or 'xargs'?)

[Jordan Hubbard]

From: Oliver Fromme [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: cp -d dir patch for review (or 'xargs'?)
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 17:27:04 +0200 (CEST)

 Not all users use /bin/sh.  Scripts needn't be written
 in /bin/sh ...

Actually, just to jump in and correct this, scripts *should* be
written in /bin/sh.  That's a defacto Unix standard when it comes to
writing shell scripts, just for uniformities sake, and even if you use
tcsh or zsh as your personal shell one is always encouraged to write
in straight POSIX-conformant /bin/sh for portable scripts.  If one
also needs to walk entirely outside the painted lines there then
that's a good indication that maybe it should be written in perl. :)

- Jordan

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Re: cp -d dir patch for review (or 'xargs'?)

[Jordan Hubbard]

 And to come back on topic:  Portable scripts also should
 _not_ assume that there are no limits on the length of
 shell commands.  On the other hand, portable scripts can
 legitimately assume that xargs supports -i and -I, which
 ours doesn't.

Agreed on both counts.  I guess we should fix that.

 PS:  FWIW, I also write a lot of awk scripts, which is my
 favourite scripting language, but this is really getting
 off-topic ...

So do I, and you're right. :)

- Jordan

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Re: ISO image available?

[Jordan Hubbard]

They're not in ISO format, but releases from both -stable and -current
are available from releng4.freebsd.org and current.freebsd.org (hmm,
there should also be a stable.freebsd.org - I'll request that).
From those bits, it's pretty easy to make an image with mkisofs/mkhybrid

- Jordan

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Re: ISO image available?

[Jordan Hubbard]

 There used to be a similar snapshot server for -stable, but it seems to
 have disappeared.

Hurm?  releng4.freebsd.org has been around for ages.  Before that it
was called releng3.freebsd.org, hence the name change.

- Jordan

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build failure for today

[Jordan Hubbard]

=== usr.bin/kdump
cc -O -pipe -march=pentiumpro -I/usr/src/usr.bin/kdump/../ktrace -I/usr/src/usr.
bin/kdump/../..   -I/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include -c /usr/src/usr.bin/kdump/
kdump.c
cc -O -pipe -march=pentiumpro -I/usr/src/usr.bin/kdump/../ktrace -I/usr/src/usr.
bin/kdump/../..   -I/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include -c ioctl.c
In file included from ioctl.c:99:
/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include/sys/memrange.h:18: warning: `MDF_ACTIVE' redef
ined
/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include/pccard/cardinfo.h:81: warning: this is the loc
ation of the previous definition
In file included from ioctl.c:78:
/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include/netsmb/smb_dev.h:65: `SMB_MAXSRVNAMELEN' undec
lared here (not in a function)
/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include/netsmb/smb_dev.h:65: size of array `ioc_srvnam

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Re: Call for review... PR 25577

[Jordan Hubbard]

Cool.  Does this mean that any of the foocontrol programs can go away?
I've long wished that we could have some of the wireless control stuff
go directly into ifconfig rather than having to run an external
program before bringing up the interface.

- Jordan

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if_ef module broken in -current

[Jordan Hubbard]

=== if_ef
@ - /usr/src/sys
machine - /usr/src/sys/i386/include
echo "#define IPX 1"  opt_ipx.h
echo "#define INET 1"  opt_inet.h
echo "

echo "

echo "

echo "

rm -f .depend
mkdep -f .depend -a   -nostdinc -D_KERNEL -DKLD_MODULE -I- -I. -I@ -I@/dev 
-I@/../include -I/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include  
/usr/src/sys/modules/if_ef/../../net/if_ef.c
/usr/src/sys/modules/if_ef/../../net/if_ef.c:31: opt_ef.h: No such file or directory

What's with the empty echo statements there as well?  I've just done a
world build on this box and its sources are about an hour (relative to
cvsup-master) old, so I'm pretty sure everything is properly in sync.

- Jordan


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Re: Proposal to mergemaster

[Jordan Hubbard]

From: Martin Blapp [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Proposal to mergemaster 
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:51:28 +0100 (CET)

 If it is possible to add these checksums also in sysinstall when
 extracting the first time you install, nothing has to be done
 with commit scripts and also the first time you run mergemaster,
 you can run it a lot more faster than now.

Can you be more specific?  Some diffs would certainly be easier
to grasp the meaning of. :)

- Jordan

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Re: Proposal to mergemaster

[Jordan Hubbard]

 Yes, I mean when we extract and install all /etc files, is it possible
 to add then then md5 checksum to all installed config files into the
 cvs header ? (With grep -v "$FreeBSD:" of course).

Oh.  No, not easily.

- Jordan

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Re: Proposal to mergemaster

[Jordan Hubbard]

Hmmm, this is nice!  I've wanted this option for a long time. :)

- Jordan

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Re: sysinstall option for softupdates

[Jordan Hubbard]

From: James FitzGibbon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: sysinstall option for softupdates
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 04:19:51 -0500

 Are there any issues/plans to let users enable softupdates from inside of
 sysinstall ?

No "plans", but it's certainly something which could be done.

 If this is a good idea[tm], this could go either in the label editor

I think this is really the only place to do it, just to ease
confusion.  You also wouldn't need to put superblock-frobbing code
into sysinstall, just bundle tunefs into the mfsroot.

H.  OK, you intrigued me enough by this that I just went ahead and
did it in -current. :) Let me know what you think, come tomorrow's
snapshot.

- Jordan

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Re: sysinstall option for softupdates

[Jordan Hubbard]

From: "David O'Brien" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: sysinstall option for softupdates
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:43:52 -0800

 Why not add the softupdates option to newfs?  Since newfs contains every
 tunefs option other than softupdates, I consider it a bug that newfs
 didn't gain that functionality when it was added to tunefs.

I've no objection, but that's a bigger bikeshed. :)

- Jordan

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Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/make suff.c

[Jordan Hubbard]

I don't object - they're obvious bug fixes.

- Jordan

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RE: Labeling Vinum partitions in the sysinstall(8) [patch]

[Jordan Hubbard]

From: John Baldwin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Labeling Vinum partitions in the sysinstall(8) [patch]
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 09:28:31 -0800 (PST)

 Heh, I wrote http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/patches/sysinstall.vinum.patch
 probably a year ago now, but because it only changes the disklabel editor and
 doesn't add a full vinum configurator the patch was rejected. :-/  Hopefully
 you will have better luck than I did...

Well, I'm not sure it was "rejected" so much as "sent back with a set
of requests attached."

The problem here is that vinum is currently a feature which isn't
"exposed" to the general public - you need to be someone who's
interested in tracking down the details and doing some reading before
you can create a vinum-based filesystem.  That's good in this
particular case because vinum is hardly a trivial piece of work and
you'd better read up on it before using it or you're probably going to
end up doing nasty things to your system.

This is not to say that vinum wouldn't substantially benefit from a
lot of front-end work which removes a lot of the confusion and hair
from the process, indeed I think that would make vinum a lot more
popular and useful, but all the Baldwin/Sobolev patches do is
essentially draw an arrow which leads over the cliff. :-) They don't
front-end the process enough that someone completely unfamiliar with
vinum will be able to do the right things.

For the person who *already* knows what vinum does, these patches make
initial setup a bit easier, I don't dispute that at all.  There are a
lot more people than the vinum masters who use sysinstall, however,
and those folks are going to be going "what's this?  Should I select
it?  What do I do after that?"  In short, it only opens a big can of
worms for them.

In short, I think these patches are a good start but only about 1/10th
of the work necessary to truly bring vinum support into sysinstall.
As a 1/10th effort, I also consider them to be something to be passed
around amongst various hackers interested in providing the other 9/10
but nothing to actually expose end-users to right now.  That's why
your (John's) patches went back with comments attached and I've
merely been waiting for you to finish them. ;)

- Jordan

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Whither sftp(1)?

[Jordan Hubbard]

In his article at http://www.daemonnews.org/200102/armoring.html,
Markus Delves describes the usage of the SSH ftp command to do secure
file copies.  I further notice that we install the sftpd server in
both -stable and -current (though we don't include any prototype
information on how to start it) so we're obviously half-way down the
road, but what's the story with the client?  Thanks.

- Jordan


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Re: DEVFS newbie...

[Jordan Hubbard]

 Once we have an extensible facility for mount options, you will be
 able to say:
 
   mount -t devfs devfs /home/jail/dev
   ( cd /home/jail/dev ; rm $devices_i_dont_want_in_my_jails )
   mount -u -o nonewdev /home/jail/dev

Couldn't you also do "mount -t devfs -o nonewdev devfs /home/jail/dev"
and then cd /home/jail/dev ; rm $devices_i_dont_want_in_my_jails ?  It
seems that "read my lips: no new devices" should be an option you can
set from the very initial mount so that people can't also figure out
how to get root, remove a /dev entry and replace it with one of their
own.  Come to think of it, there should also be a -o staticdev option
to disallow *any* changes after the initial mount.  That would make
some of our more paranoid sysadmins happy.

- Jordan


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Re: HEADS UP: libc/libc_r changes require rebuild of threaded apps

[Jordan Hubbard]

 What's not clear ;-)  Use -lc_r instead of -pthread.
 
   gcc -Wall -o foo foo.c -lc_r
 
 The old way was:
 
   gcc -Wall -D_THREAD_SAFE -o foo foo.c -pthread

H.  And does the -pthread argument do anything anymore?  If not,
why not have it default to simply linking in libc_r for POLA's sake
and ease of transition?  If it does do something different now,
perhaps you could explain what that is for all of us who are also
confused. :)

- Jordan


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world build broken in -current as of yesterday

[Jordan Hubbard]

=== usr.bin/vmstat
cc -O -pipe -I/usr/src/usr.bin/vmstat/../../sys   -I/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/in
clude -c /usr/src/usr.bin/vmstat/vmstat.c
/usr/src/usr.bin/vmstat/vmstat.c:483: warning: `pgtok' redefined
/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include/machine/param.h:166: warning: this is the loca
tion of the previous definition
/usr/src/usr.bin/vmstat/vmstat.c: In function `dozmem':
/usr/src/usr.bin/vmstat/vmstat.c:907: structure has no member named `znext'
*** Error code 1


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Zero-copy TCP patches - missing in action?

[Jordan Hubbard]

Weren't the zero-copy patches supposed to make it into -current some
time back?  I recall a little grumbling over it since it made it
necessary for some other projects to sync up their own work, but
nobody seemed to object in principal and zero-copy TCP is a real
marketing point if we can actually implement and use it
constructively.  Inquiring minds want to know, etc.

- Jordan


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Anybody else seeing a broken /dev/lpt with SMP on -current?

[Jordan Hubbard]

I've actually been seeing this for about 2 months now but only just
now got motivated enough to enable crashdumps and get some information
on what happens whenver I try to use the printer attached to my (sadly :)
-current SMP box:

IdlePTD 3682304
initial pcb at 2e70e0
panicstr: page fault
panic messages:
---
Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode
cpuid = 0; lapic.id = 
fault virtual address   = 0x8640
fault code  = supervisor write, page not present
instruction pointer = 0x8:0xc8dc8676
stack pointer   = 0x10:0xc8280f88
frame pointer   = 0x10:0xc8280f9c
code segment= base 0x0, limit 0xf, type 0x1b
= DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1
processor eflags= interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0
current process = 12322 (irq7: lpt0)
trap number = 12
panic: page fault
cpuid = 0; lapic.id = 
boot() called on cpu#0

If anybody wants a fuller traceback then I'll compile up a kernel with
debugging symbols, but it's going to be pretty sparse anyway since it
basically only shows the trap() from the page fault and the subsequent
panic.

- Jordan


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Re: sysinstall.8 Breaking buildworld

[Jordan Hubbard]

 My personal opinion is that sysinstall.8 is a part of the base system
 and shouldn't be optional. If we take your suggestion, it means that
 installworld will sometimes install this manpage and sometimes it won't.

I think we should simply move the stupid man page into man8.  It's a bit
weird to have a man page and its utility live in seperate places, but
the release/ directory in the hierarchy has always been a red-headed
stepchild in any case.  If I had it to do over, it would have all gone
into /usr/src/sbin somewhere.

- Jordan


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Re: sysinstall.8 Breaking buildworld

[Jordan Hubbard]

 Let's put sysinstall back in sbin/ then.  It _used_ to live there until someo
ne
 moved it. :)

I won't argue - move away!  Just have one of the CVSmeisters do it as
a repo-copy, of course.

- Jordan


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Re: sysinstall.8 Breaking buildworld

[Jordan Hubbard]

 yeah, but it can be used as many things.  If invoked as "rm" sysinstall
 behaves just like the real rm, it happens to be one big binary.

This, however, is merely "post-installation behavior" - if you rebuild
and reinstall sysinstall in order to catch up with a bug fix to it,
however, then this behavior goes away.

- Jordan

 
  Well, /stand/rm is not _really_ rm at all, but I get the point. I
  guess the only question is whether to put it in /sbin or /usr/sbin. I
  think /sbin makes sense (so it is bootable), but it is 1.6MB of
  /-bloat... But from another thread about making 250MB the default /
  size, I guess few care too much about that anymore.
 
 I'd prefer it in /usr/sbin, some of my root partitions are only 32MB,
 and that's not big enough at the moment.  If your /usr is hosed to
 the extent you can't mount it you've probably got more problems than
 sysinstall will help you with.  But that's just my opinion.
 
 -- 
 Ben Smithurst / [EMAIL PROTECTED] / PGP: 0x99392F7D
 
 
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Re: Is compatibility for old aout binaries broken?

[Jordan Hubbard]

 The generated ld.so has bloated a bit :-) but works fine.  So we could
 in principle build ld.so for every release.  It's just a question of
 whether we should.  I think we should.  But it might be just as easy
 to copy it off the 3.3 CD every time.  It's dead end stuff after all.
 
 Does the release engineer have an opinion?

If it's just for the compat3x distribution, I say check it into that
part of lib/compat and be done with it.  Uudecoding it each time is a
lot easier than building it.  Or are we talking about ld.so in some
different context?

- Jordan


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Build failure in -current

[Jordan Hubbard]

sh ../../conf/newvers.sh BOOTMFS 
cc -c -O -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes  
-Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual  -fformat-extensions -ansi  
-nostdinc -I-  -I. -I../.. -I../../dev -I../../../include 
-I../../contrib/dev/acpica/Subsystem/Include  -D_KERNEL -include opt_global.h -elf  
-mpreferred-stack-boundary=2  vers.c
linking BOOTMFS
ffs_inode.o: In function `ffs_truncate':
ffs_inode.o(.text+0x2e5): undefined reference to `softdep_slowdown'
ufs_lookup.o: In function `ufs_dirremove':
ufs_lookup.o(.text+0x1175): undefined reference to `softdep_slowdown'
*** Error code 1


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Re: Build failure in -current

[Jordan Hubbard]

 I've been noticing this on my daily builds for the last five days. I've just
 tried the attached patch, which works for me.

Well, that's a fix, just not the right one. :)  There should be no
"dangling references" to soft updates if SOFTUPDATES is not defined.

- Jordan


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zero copy changes in /sys/conf

[Jordan Hubbard]

Whoops, it's just been brought to my attention that I inadvertently
committed a couple of harmless changes relating to the zero-copy stuff
when I committed a PR fix to newvers.sh.  Last I checked, there were
also plans to bring the zero-copy code rather imminently into -current
but I haven't seen anything yet.  If these plans are still unchanged
then we can consider this a mere advance commit, otherwise I'll back
them out.  What's up with the zero-copy stuff?  Thanks.

- Jordan


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Re: Confusing error messages from shell image activation

[Jordan Hubbard]

Not likely to happen - people have an investment in the current scheme
and it would certainly mess with their heads if one day FreeBSD
suddenly started doing something entirely different than what it's
been doing for the last 7 years.  For those who really want to track
the NetBSD way of doing things, it can be set according to their own
tastes.

- Jordan

   Agreed. It would be nice if FreeBSD could use the same system as NetBSD,
   storing the packages/ports under /usr/pkg.
  
  That's why PREFIX exists.
 
 Okay, let me rephrase: It would be nice if FreeBSD *by default* stored
 the packages/ports under /usr/pkg, like NetBSD (and the corresponding
 sources under /usr/pkgsrc).
 
 Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: Progress report: Multilingual sysinstall for -current

[Jordan Hubbard]

My feeling on this is that sysinstall is (and always has been :-) at
the end of its life and adding multi-lingual capabilities to it is a
reasonable part of its retirement.  The libh project is promising but
suffers from a lack of volunteers, volunteers who aren't working on
sysinstall either so I'm not worried about it somehow sucking the
necessary time and attention away from libh.  Hacking on sysinstall
I18N in -current gives the developers the current.freebsd.org snapshot
machine as a testing vehicle (why should the SMP people get all the
benefit?) and is entirely reasonable as a staging area for -stable,
which is also what -current is supposed to be.

- Jordan


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Re: Progress report: Multilingual sysinstall for -current

[Jordan Hubbard]

 No, KSE has paid developers working on it.  When was the last cycle spent
 on libh?

I'm glad you brought that up - I've been trying to find more things
for you to do.  I'll bring it up during the engineering staff meeting
today. ;-)

- Jordan


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Re: Make World Time Format

[Jordan Hubbard]

Thanks, good compromise.

 On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:02:35PM -0800, Thomas D. Dean wrote:
  Is it possible to go back to the old style of reporting world time in
  Makefile?  I have been collecting make time stats.
 
 I added it back, but in a way I think will not be objectionable for the
 reason it was removed.
  
 
 
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Re: current.freebsd.org

[Jordan Hubbard]

 Not sure if this the right place to complain or not, but current.freebsd.org
 does not appear to be on the net.  traceroutes to both current.freebsd.org 
 and usw2.freebsd.org (its alterego) fail.  I did find that ftp7.de.freebsd.or
g
 has the 27 November 2000 snapshot of current on it .. was this the last time
 current.freebsd.org was alive?

About 3 days ago; I'm unable to contact anyone at USWest but am
working on it.  Sigh.  Also, for some reason the remote console to
usw2 just doesn't work so the remote debugging option is out too.

 What is the proper place to complain?  A quick search of handbook/faq
 and archives of this list yields nothing ...

Probably [EMAIL PROTECTED] since it's an infrastructural issue, but
others have been complaining too so -current was as reasonable a place
as any in this case since it let me tell all of you the situation at
once. :)

- Jordan


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Any plans to fix -current anytime soon?

[Jordan Hubbard]

I know this:

=== usr.bin/netstat
cc -O -pipe -Wall -DIPSEC -DINET6 -DIPSEC   -I/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include
-c /usr/src/usr.bin/netstat/if.c
In file included from /usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include/net/if_var.h:78,
 from /usr/src/usr.bin/netstat/if.c:49:
/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include/sys/mbuf.h:120: `MSIZE' undeclared here (not i
n a function)

Is still being debated but it's also been broken for a few days now
and we really should either fix it or just back it out since it's
delaying build testing of *other* stuff.  Thanks!

- Jordan


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Re: make release CVS?

[Jordan Hubbard]

 I want to start building releases on a home box since it's not doing much 
 else when I'm at work. But I have a rather low bandwidth, so I was 
 wondering about the CVS checkout of /usr/src that the make release does. 

Well, it's fairly easy to keep a cvs repo up to date even at low
bandwidth (once you've gotten the initial sync) with cvsup.  I've been
putting the CVS repository on the mainstream CD releases too, so they
can give you a place to start if your bandwidth is *really* low for
that initial sync.  Please see http://www.freebsdmall.com for ordering
details. ;-)

 With my bandwidth the source may very well be out of synch with what the 
 binaries were built with (and it takes way too long). Or am I missing 
 something.

Probably.  The initial binary chroot tree's contents come from
/usr/obj which was ostensibly built from a fairly recent /usr/src, so
they should be in sync.

 Also is there anything against doing a 'make clean' in /usr/src (or 
 whereever it's based) and then slurping that tree into the release tree? 

You'd have to do this after the chroot tree was built, and you can
also just skip the make clean if you have a /usr/obj since /usr/src
won't be polluted by the binaries in any case.

My predominant feeling from reading your message is that you still
don't really understand release/Makefile yet and simply need to read
it very very carefully. :)

- Jordan


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Re: Any plans to fix -current anytime soon?

[Jordan Hubbard]

H.  This is very strange since I just restarted it a few minutes
ago with a known-good repository and it's *still* falling over.  I'm
investigating.  Sorry to all for what's undoubtedly a false alarm.

- Jordan

 
 was fixed yesterday, or, at least, I've done a buildworld since
 experiencing this problem ...
 
 On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Jordan Hubbard wrote:
 
  I know this:
  
  === usr.bin/netstat
  cc -O -pipe -Wall -DIPSEC -DINET6 -DIPSEC   -I/usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/inc
lude
  -c /usr/src/usr.bin/netstat/if.c
  In file included from /usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include/net/if_var.h:78,
   from /usr/src/usr.bin/netstat/if.c:49:
  /usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include/sys/mbuf.h:120: `MSIZE' undeclared here (
not i
  n a function)
  
  Is still being debated but it's also been broken for a few days now
  and we really should either fix it or just back it out since it's
  delaying build testing of *other* stuff.  Thanks!
  
  - Jordan
  
  
  To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
  
 
 Marc G. Fournier   ICQ#7615664   IRC Nick: Scrapp
y
 Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
 primary: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.or
g 
 



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Re: make release CVS?

[Jordan Hubbard]

 But I don't understand why you need the whole historical cvs repository
 when you only use it to check out the current source, which you already
 has online. 
 Or am I missing something too?

You're missing something too.  You can build a release with the tag
set to anything you like - modulo the capabilities of the chroot tree
(which either may or may not be up to hosting such a build), you can
build a release version which is not the same as the host version.

- Jordan


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USW2 Root: -current build report for Mon Nov 20 02:06:26 CST 2000

[Jordan Hubbard]

Kaboom.  Looks like the fixes to perl unfixed the release.

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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 07:13:47 -0600 (CST)
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To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: -current build report for Mon Nov 20 02:06:26 CST 2000

Doing nightly build attempt for 5.0-20001120-CURRENT at Mon Nov 20 02:06:26 CST 2000
Updating source tree...
Making release...
Release build of 5.0-20001120-CURRENT was an abject failure.
install -c -o root -g wheel -m 444   libperl_p.a /R/stage/trees/bin/usr/lib
install -c -s -o root -g wheel -m 444 libperl.so.4 /R/stage/trees/bin/usr/lib
ln -sf libperl.so.4 /R/stage/trees/bin/usr/lib/libperl.so
=== gnu/usr.bin/perl/perl
cd /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl/perl ; make install DESTDIR=/R/stage/trees/bin 
SHARED=copies
install -c -s -o root -g wheel -m 555   perl /R/stage/trees/bin/usr/bin
/R/stage/trees/bin/usr/bin/perl5 - /R/stage/trees/bin/usr/bin/perl
/R/stage/trees/bin/usr/bin/perl5.6.0 - /R/stage/trees/bin/usr/bin/perl
=== gnu/usr.bin/perl/suidperl
cd /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl/suidperl ; make install DESTDIR=/R/stage/trees/bin 
SHARED=copies
install -c -s -o root -g wheel -m 511   suidperl /R/stage/trees/bin/usr/bin
/R/stage/trees/bin/usr/bin/sperl5 - /R/stage/trees/bin/usr/bin/suidperl
/R/stage/trees/bin/usr/bin/sperl5.6.0 - /R/stage/trees/bin/usr/bin/suidperl
=== gnu/usr.bin/perl/library
cd /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl/library ; make install DESTDIR=/R/stage/trees/bin 
SHARED=copies
=== gnu/usr.bin/perl/library/B
miniperl: not found
*** Error code 127

Stop in /usr/obj/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl/library/B/ext/B.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl/library/B.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl/library.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl/library.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/src/gnu.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/src.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/src.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/src/release.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/src/release.

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Re: ATA RAID - sysinstall solution

[Jordan Hubbard]

 So I looked through sysinstall source and libdisk source and guess what ! -
 libdisk doesn't know about ar? devices yet.

Committed, thanks!

- Jordan


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The biggest reason I rearranged the timing output in make world

[Jordan Hubbard]

If you look at make release's output:

 make release started on Sun Nov  5 23:27:21 GMT 2000* T1
 Making hierarchy
 Installing everything..
 elf make world started on Mon Nov  6 00:25:54 GMT 2000  * T2
 Rebuilding the temporary build tree
 stage 1: bootstrap tools
 stage 2: cleaning up the object tree
 stage 2: rebuilding the object tree
 stage 2: build tools
 stage 3: cross tools
 stage 4: populating /usr/obj/usr/src/i386/usr/include
 stage 4: building libraries
 stage 4: make dependencies
 stage 4: building everything..
 Making hierarchy
 Installing everything..
 Rebuilding man page indices
 elf make world completed on Mon Nov  6 01:22:51 GMT 2000* T3
 make release finished on Mon Nov  6 02:48:10 GMT 2000   * T4

From T1 to T2 is the amount of time to populate the chroot tree, T2 to
T3 the world time, and T3 to T4 the release packaging time.  Having
the ordering work this way gives a nice, clean timeline for the whole
process. :)

- Jordan


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Re: Problem with dlopen()/dlsym() after recent crt* changes

[Jordan Hubbard]

 After the crt changes the following piece of code, which worked previously,
 gives a 'host: dlopen() failed: ./module.so: Undefined symbol
 "__register_frame_info' error message (yeah, I know that it's better to check
 handle == NULL first, but it's the way some apps work).

Huh!  So that's why my XFree86 server no longer loads its glx.so
module (thought I rebuilt it several times just to make sure it wasn't
something which rotted on my system).  This one's kinda serious! :-(
I get the exact same message from the X server.

- Jordan


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Re: ipfw question.

[Jordan Hubbard]

 I know someone who is willing to substantially revise the install
 process, BUT:

That's too much of a BUT. :)

 1)They will want to keep it proprietary for commercial
   use for a period of at least a year, and that would

Which is why it wouldn't be FreeBSD.  FreeBSD is free and that
includes sysinstall and the pkg_install tools, a situation that
parallels this one since Walnut Creek CDROM essentially paid me to
write them.  If WC had turned pointy-haired about this and decided not
to allow me to release them, however, we'd still be using shell script
installers (or an installer from somebody with less pointy-haired
bosses) since that would have been completely unacceptable.

 2)They will want to call their stuff FreeBSD, but that

.. and which is why they couldn't call their stuff FreeBSD.  You can't
have your cake and eat it too.

I know you said FWIW, but I just wanted to point out that it was
actually worth very little. :-)

- Jordan


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Re: new rc.network6 and rc.firewall6

[Jordan Hubbard]

 There are many discussion aboud having NetBSD style rc.d.  However, I
 think it takes for a period of time.
 Once, I wish to commit my changes to be in time for 4.2-RELEASE.

I think people were talking only about -current here anyway.
A NetBSD style rc.d is certainly not planned for -stable.

- Jordan


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Re: AMD broken in -current?

[Jordan Hubbard]

 On Thu, Oct 26, 2000 at 09:04:45PM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote:
  It use to work in early October, but now I get the following using
  the stock (/etc/defaults/rc.conf) amd flags:
 
 It works on my Oct 22nd world.

OK, so maybe it broke even later.  What does it do on your
Oct 27th world? :)

- Jordan


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Re: entropy reseeding is totally broken

[Jordan Hubbard]

 The issue is one of seeding the device strongly. If all you care about
 is getting a different fortune when you boot then seeding with
 e.g. the system boot time would be enough, but obviously it doesnt
 make /dev/random cryptographically secure.

I think there's a more general point being made here - if we're
not seeding /dev/random effectively at startup, fortune is the
least of our worries since all the other startup services will
be unrandom as well.

This situation I see with /dev/random is kind of disturbing since I
think we're running the danger of falling into the following
all-too-common scenario in engineering:

1) Person X falls in love with a new algorithm or technique and
   implements it in a fairly key service with quite a few rough
   edges.

2) The users fail to embrace this new technology all that fervently
   since those same rough edges make it a promising but annoying or
   downright non-functional implementation.

3) Person X vigorously defends himself and/or the algorithm since
   he knows it's really a much better thing in the long run and
   simply needs "tweaking" to make it fully work.

4) The users see this as an attempt to cram broken bits down their
   throats and just as vigorously fight back against what they see
   as someone's fancy solution in search of a problem to solve.

5) Constructive dialog breaks down and it all turns into an exchange
   of increasingly irritated words as each side feels the other isn't
   hearing what it's trying to say or appreciating the bigger pictures.

Let's try not to go there with /dev/random, please. :)

- Jordan


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