Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
a mac mini is $599, so purchasing a mac isn't as expensive as folks might think. Admittedly, if you want to use apple tools, then yes, an apple developer account helps. However, it's not strictly necessary. If you're only interested in writing programs for the mac (and not ios) then you need not purchase an apple developer account for $99 a year. You can still use java and mono for free, and of course terminal apps written in any language you like work perfectly and don't even require Xcode to be installed, though installing it gives you all sorts of extras you don't otherwise have. Just thought I'd offer some alternate views since everyone else is stating true but lacking information. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Oh wow! I'm glad I have win 7 now then. I do wish I had win 8 though, because my laptop has only 2 gigs of memory, so sometimes things run slower, like the copying of files and such. But that shortcut will be extremelz addesome! sent from the braille plus valiant8086 valiant8...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I'm probably stirring up a dead horse at this point, seeing I'm late to the thread, but another nice thing about the task manager, in 7 and 8, and 8.1, is you can hold down the windows key and hit the number corresponding to how many icons from the left on the task bar the item you want is, and it will, A. If the application isn't already running launch it B. if it is already running bring it to the foreground. I make heavy use of this feature to shorten the alt+tab process down to one key press to bounce between Monkey Term and Thunderbird as needed, or flip right over to the chicken nugget window assuming I have it not hidden. I use windows+1 to open internet explorer for instance. how can you beat that? Windows+e opens up the explorer window, and in 8.1 the explorer window, on top of showing your list of drives, lists network drives in a separate category that you can close if you want so you don't have to see them all the time, and it lists important user folders like documents, downloads and such as that right there in the window you get when you hit windows+e. Again, how can you beat that? In windows 7 I would go to start menu and type downloads and hit enter to open my downloads folder. Now I hit windows+e and type dow, just do without the w goes to documents, and hit enter and there I am in my downloads folder. In windows XP I used to use the connect to menu in the start menu to work my way to the wireless networks dialogue box. When I switched to windows 7 a few years ago I became rather upset because I couldn't find an easy way to get to the networks list. I knew how to get there but it was convoluted and not nearly as simple to get to as XP. It took me a few months no kidding to figure out that there is an icon on the system tray that shows what network you are connected to or not connected if none. You can hit enter on that and it brings up a list of wireless networks and dialup and cellular device connections, pluus lists ethernet connections, right there just like that. So that discovery was one of the things that really started selling 7 to me since going through the system tray like that really feels actually a lot easier than xp's way of doing it. usually I know what network I am connected to also so if I'm on my satelite connection I just hit windows+b, type sat and hit enter really quick so the balloon thing doesn't pop up and get me stuck in there (XP does this too so don't go there especially with the little problem where it would decide you wanted to be on a particular item and every time you tried to arrow away it'd put you back on the item you were already on, ug) and down arrow to the connection I want and hit enter twice, first time it puts me on the connect button, or if it was already connected it focuses a disconnect button. I hit enter the second time and it just connects. What's more, 7 connects to WiFi networks a lot faster than XP. I usually had to wait around 10 to 15 seconds on XP machines to connect to networks, 7 does it in around 3 seconds on average. Not only that, but 8.1 has two sliders above all the networks by which you can turn networks off. There's an airplane mode switch you go to that and you can left or right arrow between off (left) and on (right). If on none of your wireless networks will work unless you explicitly enable them, Wifi has it's own on off switch just below airplane in there which you can use to do this. Windows 8.1 gave us back the ability to say that the desktop environment is what we want by default. it also provides us the ability to make the start screen by default always show all apps instead of live tiles. I tried the all apps thing out originally, but I put it back to live tiles because I like to be able to read the weather so easily. I admit while I'm on this subject though that last time I messed with the built in windows 8.1 weather app I couldn't figure out how to change the location. Only reason it works good for me now is my computer figured out (with my permission) where I am and set it up for me. So many people just totally trash the new start screen. I sort of like it, wouldn't mind a more linear way to navigate it if I desired, but on the whole it's kind of nifty. But while I say that, I don't use it very often. I put shortcuts to stuff I use most on the desktop, and that's working ok. There's no problem with hitting windows+m , typing top and hitting enter to launch topspeed. One thing my friends have really been upset about windows 8.1 over is the new task manager. While I would have to agree that the new task manager really is pretty sluggish compared to the
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Well its why I have both systems. right now for example my xp box is restoring my hdd which had a partition falier and that will take a while maybe another day. I am gaming and writing on this win7 system. I didn't have to upgrade but having an old system for gaming and non secure stuff and a new system to does help matters. Hi Shaun and all, Well, here is what I think will happen. I don't think it is anything to be afraid of because as I have said many times a lot of the stuff we have now can be run on Windows 8.1 with a little bit of tinkering. Yes, while there will be certain issues such as 3d audio support is broken in games like Shades of Doom, Tank Commander, etc it isn't an insurmountable issue. I have played Shades of Doom many times on Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1 using stereo mixing which is less precise but doable. What I think is going to happen is eventually a lot of people running XP right now will have to buy new computers running Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 8.1. It is not so much a question of if but when. Let's say sometime in the next five years or so the XP user base will slowly but eventually upgrade to a newer machine, new OS, and obviously they will want games that are compatible with their new computers. As the number of blind users running something like Windows 8 grows developers will have to follow suit. They probably will be running newer computers themselves and will have to take some time to look at alternatives such as Visual Basic .NET, C# .NET, Java, whatever. I don't know if they will choose to rewrite any of their older games or not, but I feel confident that newer games will be coming out designed for Windows 7 and up just because by then most of the user base will be running something other than XP anyway. The other thing in our favor is that developers are already slowly moving away from Visual Basic 6 and are looking into more modern technology's. This won't happen all at once, but we are slowly moving away from VB 6 as a general rule. Draconis has a new engine written in C++ , and are rewriting many of their old titles. BPC Programs uses .NET which is already Windows 8.x compatible , and I don't see them having a big problem upgrading their software. Blind Adrenaline is using .NET and I don't see Che having a problem with his games on Windows 8 and beyond either. Entombed is similarly written in .NET and should have a decent shelf life assuming Jason maintains the code. There are quite a few developers using BGT now, and that is reasonably Windows 7 and Windows 8.x compatible currently/. So I wouldn't worry too much about new games being compatible as it seems as though developers are slowly but surely moving away from VB 6 in general. In short, we may have a few problems with older games, and some may stop working. However, by and large it won't be as bad as people fear. Many will still work on the newer platforms, and those that don't may get fixed or upgraded. If there comes a time that something won't work at all there is still the option to run XP etc in a virtual machine which gives a user the best of both worlds. Some people will undoubtedly drag their heals, but like you said I think the best thing to do is upgrade on your own terms rather than be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern computing world. Cheers! On 12/26/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Charles I have no answers for you. All I know is that something will have to happen. All I know is we can't go on as we are. I have no idea what that will mean and yes we may lose some stuff I just don't know. All I am saying is that there will be a time when what we used and loved will be gone. Think of all the synbian phones and nokia going to inaccessable win8. Ok se have a bit of access now but still its valid. I'd like to stay with nokia and symbian but the next thing I move to may have to be something other than I am used to. We have 2 choices. We can do it now at our own pace or we can wait another 10 years, when ms finally dropps their legacy software and handle it then. But if we do we may lose all audio games that are not converted. Now it will not be all games, but it will be a good deal. We have till at least the end of win8 to decide what we do. Ms however is vary generous I doubt this will stay for long. Look at xp its been vary good about keeping it for so long past its used by date. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Well personally I do wish that this time of unsertainty will pass quickly. I don't play the old gma games as much as I used to, and to be honest who knows what will happen in the future. Howevver I do hope that there is more progress at least publically reported. Sometimes it feels like that everytthing is standing still and thats my prime frustration right there. Because I don't know where everything etc is at I start think irational thoughts. There needs to be if at all possible a register or every dev that still does games in general at least those that use old systems to see what their update status is if ever they are going to do so. I realise that this is probably not going to happen but it would put my mind at rest if I could check every few weeks and know where the players were and be notified via email when things changed. I realise that it would be another layer on top of what others had to do but it would be convenient for the gamer if one existed. Hi Shaun, Well, the money is precisely the reason we can't get big mainstream companies on our side. If a game developer says he made $10,000 last year on game x the mainstream companies will laugh in our faces. Sony, Capcom, Nintendo, Activision, EA Games, and others are use to making millions off a single title. Something like $10,000 is laughable. That would not even cover the salary of their lead developer who would be asked to rewrite portions of the game to make it accessible. Of course, I suspect mainstream developers would have much more success than anyone here, but the whole idea is they do not see much money in it compared to what they are already making. However, as for the idea that the audio games will die off I don't really see that happening per say. Sure some games will have problems, there may be a few compatibility issues, but as game developers and users upgrade they will have to address those compatibility issues eventually. I don't think it is so much a question of if but when all this will happen. Cheers! On 12/26/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: I see your point. I do wander in that case what the future of audiogames will be. Its obvious that in the short term a lot of what we know will probably die off. Its almost we need a shot up the rear but question is what. I once thought getting main stream companies on our side or making games to equal things like that. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
I agree with you mike. win7 I can mostly live with since I have to handle that daily but 8 scares the living daylights out of me. So much visual stuff and stuff I am not used to. I have heard all the info and I am still scared to death. I have used classic systems for ages, even7 is still simular enoough that I am not to scared but 8 and its apps, start screen and other stuff really does scare me a lot. I know that XP is near its end. I also know that there are newer operating systems (just the ones from Microsoft). I know that security is a factor which might bring people to upgrade at some point. True, if XP is now longer supported, hackers and other people can possibly find holes in the security systems. And true, not every antivirus program can protect you from such attacks. However, the viruses are not the only danger when it comes to using the internet. Criminals who manipulate websites to not directly target your computer but to record or capture the communication the moment it leaves your computer are more dangerous. If you are on a manipulated website and whatever interactions you have with that site (be it loggin in, doing money transfers or whatever) might be captured without the need of actually cracking some form of encryption. I think that there is a term for such indirect attacks: man in the browser or something like that. And I also think that it has not to be limited to the web browser itself. But that is the extend of that. Fact is that such types of attacks might be a bigger problems. Such is not a form of direct attack where the fact that you have an outdated system might mean nothing. If the transfered data is redirected away from the route it is supposed to take, you can't see it right now. And if such a form of attack happens, it is totally of no consequence whether you used XP or Windows 8.1. And I am sure that this is not the point some people tried to originally make. I am all for better security systems for my computer, but I need to get a manual which explains to me the (probably not knowledgeable) user what I should do and what I shouldn't do. Since XP users had their let's call it Classic design and programs, they might be confused or might be afraid of things like Modern UI in Windows 8 and higher. I won't say that everyone won't be able to adapt in time if they want to, but who will tell them the inns and outs of Windows 8 compared to XP (if your last operating system was XP). These are of course only examples. And let's not forget that Microsoft loves to drop a lot of programs out of their systems without replacements or with suboptimal replacements. This is just for as an argument, but I will adress them shortly. XP has Outlook Express. I have no idea if it is a bad program (security related) or if it is horribly outdated for an E-Mail program. It however does its job. Vista had Windows Mail which according to my mother (she is sighted) is like a newer version of Outlook Express with some new features and some altered ones. Then there is Windows 7 which still has a Windows Mail program with its own folder, but it is totally disabled and effectively unusable. Then back in the day (near the initial release of Windows 7( it was strongly suggested that users who had first switched from Outlook Express to Windows Mail should switch again to Windows Live Mail, which is free, but now longer a part of Windows itself. The same goes for Windows Movie Maker. Windows Movie maker is a tool for actually editing or recording videos. But Windows Live Movie Maker is not a new version of Windows Movie Maker. The newer program is part of Windows Live and more for sharing your videos or for publishing them on video sharing services. But enough of that. There is another interesting thing I'd like to mention here, allthough I did not experience it myself. I read that the rather old Bavisoft games wouldn't work on Windows 7. I of course have no idea why or which component(s) might be missing. I know that several developers mentioned that VB6 or other older technologies are outdated and that there are replacements for them. But I as an end user are not in the position to force the developer (Bavisoft in this example) to make their games compatible with Windows 7. If Bavisoft were still around, I could ask them nicely if they would be so kind as to do something. But if they would refuse I still would have a bought product which I could not use. True, it would be the developer's fault, but is this reason enough to purposefully drop older runtime components from Windows just because the developer product is outdated? I mean, look at Jim Kitchen's games. They use the VB6 runtime. On XP most of the runtime files should be present by default. On Windows 7 they are not just because the system is newer. At least it looks this way from the viewpoint of the end user. Luckily the main installer for the game can install the runtime files on newer
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Shaun: Makes sense. As it happens my ex and I also use to do something similar. We had an old desktop computer in the living room with XP on it that we used for games and other things. It wasn't on the Internet or anything like that, but was basically just there to play games on, run older applications, etc while we used our Windows 7 laptops for everything else. It worked out pretty well until the desktop bit the big one and I never got around to repairing it. However, I would definitely agree with someone keeping an XP computer around for older games and apps while having a new computer for using the Internet, e-mail, and playing newer games. Cheers! On 12/26/13, Shaun Everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well its why I have both systems. right now for example my xp box is restoring my hdd which had a partition falier and that will take a while maybe another day. I am gaming and writing on this win7 system. I didn't have to upgrade but having an old system for gaming and non secure stuff and a new system to does help matters. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Shaun: I think you are seriously over reacting. I don't know why you would be scared of Windows 8. There is absolutely nothing to be scared of. As Franklin D. Roosevelt once said, all we have to fear is fear itself. That seems quite apt for this situation. Sure, I won't deny Windows 8 has a completely different user interface, but it isn't hard to learn, nor is it insurmountable. If anything it is easy enough to learn and use if you have someone to perhaps talk you through it and show you where things are, and if you don't have someone to help you can always just search for it and 99% of the time Windows 8 will find it for you. For instance, the Windows Start Screen is a pain to navigate. Big deal. If I want to start an app I can just start typing the name of the program into the Start Screen and I'll get a list box of possible matches that will pop up I can arrow through until I find the one I want. If I typed Word into the Start Screen it would give me a list of matches like Microsoft Word, Wordpad, Word Target, etc. I could then arrow through the displayed items to find the one I want without having to tab and arrow around the Start Screen to find it. Another alternative is the run dialog. I can still press Windows+r to bring up run, and type the name of the executable into the dialog and launch it that way. Admittedly it isn't as handy as the XP Start Menu was, but once you get use to doing it that way it is quick and easy enough. Finally, there is the Taskbar itself. You can pin games and apps to your Taskbar so they are always available from the Taskbar meaning most of the time you will never even have to use the Start Screen. You just tab to your Taskbar, arrow to the launcher for Microsoft Word, press enter, and you are in business. Once you set it up that way, pin all your favorite apps to the Taskbar, the Start Screen is pretty much null and void. My point here being is Windows 8 is different, maybe you will need to learn some new skills, do things a bit differently than you are use to, but there is absolutely no reason to be scared to death of it. Bottom line, you have to be willing to change, learn new things, and if you can't then you have no business owning or using a computer. Computers always change, always require constant willingness to learn and do different things, and the people who can't do that will never get ahead in the world. Cheers! On 12/26/13, Shaun Everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with you mike. win7 I can mostly live with since I have to handle that daily but 8 scares the living daylights out of me. So much visual stuff and stuff I am not used to. I have heard all the info and I am still scared to death. I have used classic systems for ages, even7 is still simular enoough that I am not to scared but 8 and its apps, start screen and other stuff really does scare me a lot. I know that XP is near its end. I also know that there are newer operating systems (just the ones from Microsoft). I know that security is a factor which might bring people to upgrade at some point. True, if XP is now longer supported, hackers and other people can possibly find holes in the security systems. And true, not every antivirus program can protect you from such attacks. However, the viruses are not the only danger when it comes to using the internet. Criminals who manipulate websites to not directly target your computer but to record or capture the communication the moment it leaves your computer are more dangerous. If you are on a manipulated website and whatever interactions you have with that site (be it loggin in, doing money transfers or whatever) might be captured without the need of actually cracking some form of encryption. I think that there is a term for such indirect attacks: man in the browser or something like that. And I also think that it has not to be limited to the web browser itself. But that is the extend of that. Fact is that such types of attacks might be a bigger problems. Such is not a form of direct attack where the fact that you have an outdated system might mean nothing. If the transfered data is redirected away from the route it is supposed to take, you can't see it right now. And if such a form of attack happens, it is totally of no consequence whether you used XP or Windows 8.1. And I am sure that this is not the point some people tried to originally make. I am all for better security systems for my computer, but I need to get a manual which explains to me the (probably not knowledgeable) user what I should do and what I shouldn't do. Since XP users had their let's call it Classic design and programs, they might be confused or might be afraid of things like Modern UI in Windows 8 and higher. I won't say that everyone won't be able to adapt in time if they want to, but who will tell them the inns and outs of Windows 8 compared to XP (if your last operating system was XP) --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
hi. one note, maybe you haven't used this command, perhaps you don't even know it is there. lol. but in stead of going to your desktop then tabbing over to your task bar, simply press windows T. this will jump you to the first item on your task bar, from where ever you are. anywhere in the system at all. so no need for multiple key presses, when that one command will take you to your taskbar quickly. then, also, another handy feature of the taskbar, is the ability to use windows key, along with 1 through to 0. so, for example. lets say i have firefox in the first position on the task bar. just press windows key and 1, from anywhere in the system, and firefox will open. also, if it is already open, and this is rather handy, pressing that command will switch to it's window. so no having to alt tab through to find the firefox window, just press the windows key, and the 1 key. just thought i'd put this out there, as people may or may not know of these commands, and how much easier they make things in windows. Dallas On 30/12/2013, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Shaun: I think you are seriously over reacting. I don't know why you would be scared of Windows 8. There is absolutely nothing to be scared of. As Franklin D. Roosevelt once said, all we have to fear is fear itself. That seems quite apt for this situation. Sure, I won't deny Windows 8 has a completely different user interface, but it isn't hard to learn, nor is it insurmountable. If anything it is easy enough to learn and use if you have someone to perhaps talk you through it and show you where things are, and if you don't have someone to help you can always just search for it and 99% of the time Windows 8 will find it for you. For instance, the Windows Start Screen is a pain to navigate. Big deal. If I want to start an app I can just start typing the name of the program into the Start Screen and I'll get a list box of possible matches that will pop up I can arrow through until I find the one I want. If I typed Word into the Start Screen it would give me a list of matches like Microsoft Word, Wordpad, Word Target, etc. I could then arrow through the displayed items to find the one I want without having to tab and arrow around the Start Screen to find it. Another alternative is the run dialog. I can still press Windows+r to bring up run, and type the name of the executable into the dialog and launch it that way. Admittedly it isn't as handy as the XP Start Menu was, but once you get use to doing it that way it is quick and easy enough. Finally, there is the Taskbar itself. You can pin games and apps to your Taskbar so they are always available from the Taskbar meaning most of the time you will never even have to use the Start Screen. You just tab to your Taskbar, arrow to the launcher for Microsoft Word, press enter, and you are in business. Once you set it up that way, pin all your favorite apps to the Taskbar, the Start Screen is pretty much null and void. My point here being is Windows 8 is different, maybe you will need to learn some new skills, do things a bit differently than you are use to, but there is absolutely no reason to be scared to death of it. Bottom line, you have to be willing to change, learn new things, and if you can't then you have no business owning or using a computer. Computers always change, always require constant willingness to learn and do different things, and the people who can't do that will never get ahead in the world. Cheers! On 12/26/13, Shaun Everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with you mike. win7 I can mostly live with since I have to handle that daily but 8 scares the living daylights out of me. So much visual stuff and stuff I am not used to. I have heard all the info and I am still scared to death. I have used classic systems for ages, even7 is still simular enoough that I am not to scared but 8 and its apps, start screen and other stuff really does scare me a lot. I know that XP is near its end. I also know that there are newer operating systems (just the ones from Microsoft). I know that security is a factor which might bring people to upgrade at some point. True, if XP is now longer supported, hackers and other people can possibly find holes in the security systems. And true, not every antivirus program can protect you from such attacks. However, the viruses are not the only danger when it comes to using the internet. Criminals who manipulate websites to not directly target your computer but to record or capture the communication the moment it leaves your computer are more dangerous. If you are on a manipulated website and whatever interactions you have with that site (be it loggin in, doing money transfers or whatever) might be captured without the need of actually cracking some form of encryption. I think that there is a term for such indirect attacks: man in the browser or something like that. And I also think that it
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Shaun: Well, not likely. Most game developers aren't in the habit of discussing their future plans or publicly address compatibility issues unless they have something in the works. Besides your idea of a weekly or monthly update from each and every developer is a bit unrealistic. For one thing a lot of developers, including myself, do this as a hobby. Meaning they aren't necessarily working on games etc every day. Therefore they probably don't have anything to report that often. Even if they do there are very good reasons to not make any announcements until if and when they have something to report. As it is there have been public announcements from various game developers here and there regarding compatibility, and the situation by and large isn't being ignored. It just takes time to come up with a workable solution. For example, I recall some months ago David Greenwood stating he has found a way to fix the 3d audio issues on Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8. He has a patch in the works for Shades of Doom and Tank Commander that will address the audio issues. So right there we know he is aware of the problem and has plans to fix it. We just don't know when he will release said updates. As David Greenwood has always played his cards pretty close to his chest I'm not surprised he hasn't said much how those updates are going or said when they will be released. Just knowing he is working on them is enough for me. Draconis has also been pretty vocal the last few months about their future plans. We have already seen their new engine in action with Change Reaction and Silver Dollar, and I suspect we will see more from them in the future. I am not too worried about their games having serious long term compatibility issues with Windows 8 because I know they are working on the issue. My point being is we don't need to have a blog or some website where each developer explains their plans regarding compatibility because many of them are already slowly working on the issue if and when they have the time or the desire to do so. Others we can be relatively sure aren't doing much if anything to address the issue because they are happy where they are, are happy with Visual Basic and XP, and won't change until circumstances forces them to. That is not anything we have any control over, and some of us will just have to move on without them. That is all there is to it. I know that sounds a bit cavalier, but the fact of the matter is there is always someone somewhere who will be willing to fill the gap left by another developer. If one developer quits, fails to upgrade, there is bound to be someone somewhere who will replace them, and may even be willing to write their own versions of the games. Once that happens the compatibility issues left by the first developer are not of any serious concern, and the original developer will simply cease to be a concern. Cheers! On 12/26/13, Shaun Everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well personally I do wish that this time of unsertainty will pass quickly. I don't play the old gma games as much as I used to, and to be honest who knows what will happen in the future. Howevver I do hope that there is more progress at least publically reported. Sometimes it feels like that everytthing is standing still and thats my prime frustration right there. Because I don't know where everything etc is at I start think irational thoughts. There needs to be if at all possible a register or every dev that still does games in general at least those that use old systems to see what their update status is if ever they are going to do so. I realise that this is probably not going to happen but it would put my mind at rest if I could check every few weeks and know where the players were and be notified via email when things changed. I realise that it would be another layer on top of what others had to do but it would be convenient for the gamer if one existed. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Dallas: Yes, you are absolutely right. I forgot to mention those commands in my prior e-mail, but all the same things in Windows 8 are very easy once you are made aware of commands like Windows+t to jump to the Taskbar or the Windows+1 through Windows+0 commands to launch apps from the Taskbar. Now that I have learned how easy Windows 8 is I wouldn't trade it for XP any day of the week. It is the people who don't know about all the extra accessibility under the hood that are still dragging their heals and complaining about how much worse Windows 8 is when they simply don't know what in blazes they are talking about. Cheers! On 12/29/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi. one note, maybe you haven't used this command, perhaps you don't even know it is there. lol. but in stead of going to your desktop then tabbing over to your task bar, simply press windows T. this will jump you to the first item on your task bar, from where ever you are. anywhere in the system at all. so no need for multiple key presses, when that one command will take you to your taskbar quickly. then, also, another handy feature of the taskbar, is the ability to use windows key, along with 1 through to 0. so, for example. lets say i have firefox in the first position on the task bar. just press windows key and 1, from anywhere in the system, and firefox will open. also, if it is already open, and this is rather handy, pressing that command will switch to it's window. so no having to alt tab through to find the firefox window, just press the windows key, and the 1 key. just thought i'd put this out there, as people may or may not know of these commands, and how much easier they make things in windows. Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
LOL, perfectly said! Dead right. Windows 8.1 is my windows, and nothing else but going forward will do for me now. The accessibility in windows 8 / 8.1 blows the pants off 7, let alone! XP! Hahah. And anybody that says narrator in windows 8 isn't getting good, obviously hasn't actually bothered to sit down and use it for a while, too see just what Microsoft have done. They have made it close to a screen reader in and of itself! And in the case of windows RT, it is. OK, it's not up to the VoiceOver standards in OS X, but it's trying, and I think it will get there in the end. Considering where narrator was in windows XP, then in windows 7, ... windows 8's narrator is a massive improvement. And it actually works. I've actually sat down, and used Internet explorer, and a few other apps, with narrator. It is, in fact, quite usable. OK, I'm not about to replace NVDA with narrator, LOL. but it's a good effort, and a good start towards what it needs to be. and Windows XP feels so old to me now. I mean, come on, ... no start menu search? LOL. How, late 1990's, / early 2000's. Hahah. So last decade! Dallas On 30/12/2013, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dallas: Yes, you are absolutely right. I forgot to mention those commands in my prior e-mail, but all the same things in Windows 8 are very easy once you are made aware of commands like Windows+t to jump to the Taskbar or the Windows+1 through Windows+0 commands to launch apps from the Taskbar. Now that I have learned how easy Windows 8 is I wouldn't trade it for XP any day of the week. It is the people who don't know about all the extra accessibility under the hood that are still dragging their heals and complaining about how much worse Windows 8 is when they simply don't know what in blazes they are talking about. Cheers! On 12/29/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi. one note, maybe you haven't used this command, perhaps you don't even know it is there. lol. but in stead of going to your desktop then tabbing over to your task bar, simply press windows T. this will jump you to the first item on your task bar, from where ever you are. anywhere in the system at all. so no need for multiple key presses, when that one command will take you to your taskbar quickly. then, also, another handy feature of the taskbar, is the ability to use windows key, along with 1 through to 0. so, for example. lets say i have firefox in the first position on the task bar. just press windows key and 1, from anywhere in the system, and firefox will open. also, if it is already open, and this is rather handy, pressing that command will switch to it's window. so no having to alt tab through to find the firefox window, just press the windows key, and the 1 key. just thought i'd put this out there, as people may or may not know of these commands, and how much easier they make things in windows. Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
hi Won't people need to move away from XP now due to the fact that Microsoft are not making any security updates? Didn't someone on this list say that anyone who is running XP now will be putting everyone else at risk or am I wrong about that? Thanks Amanda -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2013 9:56 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Shaun and all, Well, here is what I think will happen. I don't think it is anything to be afraid of because as I have said many times a lot of the stuff we have now can be run on Windows 8.1 with a little bit of tinkering. Yes, while there will be certain issues such as 3d audio support is broken in games like Shades of Doom, Tank Commander, etc it isn't an insurmountable issue. I have played Shades of Doom many times on Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1 using stereo mixing which is less precise but doable. What I think is going to happen is eventually a lot of people running XP right now will have to buy new computers running Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 8.1. It is not so much a question of if but when. Let's say sometime in the next five years or so the XP user base will slowly but eventually upgrade to a newer machine, new OS, and obviously they will want games that are compatible with their new computers. As the number of blind users running something like Windows 8 grows developers will have to follow suit. They probably will be running newer computers themselves and will have to take some time to look at alternatives such as Visual Basic .NET, C# .NET, Java, whatever. I don't know if they will choose to rewrite any of their older games or not, but I feel confident that newer games will be coming out designed for Windows 7 and up just because by then most of the user base will be running something other than XP anyway. The other thing in our favor is that developers are already slowly moving away from Visual Basic 6 and are looking into more modern technology's. This won't happen all at once, but we are slowly moving away from VB 6 as a general rule. Draconis has a new engine written in C++ , and are rewriting many of their old titles. BPC Programs uses .NET which is already Windows 8.x compatible , and I don't see them having a big problem upgrading their software. Blind Adrenaline is using .NET and I don't see Che having a problem with his games on Windows 8 and beyond either. Entombed is similarly written in .NET and should have a decent shelf life assuming Jason maintains the code. There are quite a few developers using BGT now, and that is reasonably Windows 7 and Windows 8.x compatible currently/. So I wouldn't worry too much about new games being compatible as it seems as though developers are slowly but surely moving away from VB 6 in general. In short, we may have a few problems with older games, and some may stop working. However, by and large it won't be as bad as people fear. Many will still work on the newer platforms, and those that don't may get fixed or upgraded. If there comes a time that something won't work at all there is still the option to run XP etc in a virtual machine which gives a user the best of both worlds. Some people will undoubtedly drag their heals, but like you said I think the best thing to do is upgrade on your own terms rather than be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern computing world. Cheers! On 12/26/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Charles I have no answers for you. All I know is that something will have to happen. All I know is we can't go on as we are. I have no idea what that will mean and yes we may lose some stuff I just don't know. All I am saying is that there will be a time when what we used and loved will be gone. Think of all the synbian phones and nokia going to inaccessable win8. Ok se have a bit of access now but still its valid. I'd like to stay with nokia and symbian but the next thing I move to may have to be something other than I am used to. We have 2 choices. We can do it now at our own pace or we can wait another 10 years, when ms finally dropps their legacy software and handle it then. But if we do we may lose all audio games that are not converted. Now it will not be all games, but it will be a good deal. We have till at least the end of win8 to decide what we do. Ms however is vary generous I doubt this will stay for long. Look at xp its been vary good about keeping it for so long past its used by date. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Amanda, That is correct. The thing about security is that everyone is a sort of link in the chain. If you are able to keep your PC clean of viruses, Trojans, worms, and various other malware you won't be able to pass it onto anyone else and infect their PC. However, if you were running out of date software with poor security you have a greater risk of getting and passing on malware. You also have a risk of a cracker finding a back door into your PC and either damaging your personal data or using your personal data to steel your identity. It is in my opinion unwise to stick with old software that will no longer get security updates, because anyone online will be at risk of being victimized by unscrupulous crackers. Cheers! On 12/27/13, Amanda Burt aburt...@btinternet.com wrote: hi Won't people need to move away from XP now due to the fact that Microsoft are not making any security updates? Didn't someone on this list say that anyone who is running XP now will be putting everyone else at risk or am I wrong about that? Thanks Amanda --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Thanks for that. I have windows 7 and will make sure my security is as up-to-date as I can make it. Thanks Amanda -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 8:11 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Amanda, That is correct. The thing about security is that everyone is a sort of link in the chain. If you are able to keep your PC clean of viruses, Trojans, worms, and various other malware you won't be able to pass it onto anyone else and infect their PC. However, if you were running out of date software with poor security you have a greater risk of getting and passing on malware. You also have a risk of a cracker finding a back door into your PC and either damaging your personal data or using your personal data to steel your identity. It is in my opinion unwise to stick with old software that will no longer get security updates, because anyone online will be at risk of being victimized by unscrupulous crackers. Cheers! On 12/27/13, Amanda Burt aburt...@btinternet.com wrote: hi Won't people need to move away from XP now due to the fact that Microsoft are not making any security updates? Didn't someone on this list say that anyone who is running XP now will be putting everyone else at risk or am I wrong about that? Thanks Amanda --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Charles, I think this whole conversation has gotten muddle dup in the details, so I’d like to try to boil this down a bit, since we’ve all lost sight of the basics. Perhaps a better way to put the points that Tom and I have been trying to make is this: Every user must make their own choice about upgrading their system, switching to another platform, etc. That’s fine, and that is their choice. There are just a handful of major things that we feel the users should do and/or consider when making this choice, and which most don’t seem to be doing. These are: 1. You will *have* to upgrade sooner or later, whether you like it or not. This is not opinion, this is a fact. Old hardware will not last forever, and newer hardware will be unable to accommodate those who want to stick with obsolete operating systems. Users need to accept and understand this fact. They can prolong the inevitable if they wish, but it is, in fact, inevitable. 2. You can make the inevitable upgrade easier on yourself by upgrading on your own terms, rather than go kicking and screaming when circumstances force you to. 3. Just because a user has made the choice to be left behind technologically, they should not *expect* or *demand* that developers sacrifice the long-term health of their business to accommodate their decision. It may be true that many, perhaps even most, blind gamers are running XP right now, but the writing is on the wall for that OS, and the fact is that we will be looking at a very, very different landscape of operating systems in the next few years. If we accommodate XP users, we’re sabotaging our future business for a very short term gain that will ultimately result in massive headaches when users who bought our games that ran on old XP boxes suddenly have to get a new computer when their old one dies, and that game they bought last summer doesn’t work anymore. 4. No anti-virus or other third-party protection will protect users from the wholes that will soon be found and not fixed by Microsoft. When MS stops supporting XP, it will only be a matter of time before your security is compromised, unless you *never* connect your machine to the Internet. I don’t think users understand, technically speaking, the risk at which they are putting themselves. They are lulled into a false sense of security by makers of anti-virus software, but viruses are only one kind of threat, and hackers will find open backdoors in XP before long. Without Microsoft continuing the battle against them, you are leaving yourself open to being attack. Even Dark’s assertion that he never does his banking on the computer is again, only one small example. Your system can be compromised and used to attack other entities as part of a botnet. This may or may not impact you, but it could in terms of Internet data charges or slowing down your connection. At best, you would have to resign yourself to the knowledge that your decision to use XP has made you an implicit, if unwilling, accomplice in attacks upon others. Hope this helps clarify and/or simplify things. On Dec 24, 2013, at 10:20 PM, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: I would not upgrade to get better voices than those I already have, which are good enough. Nobody in their right mind would use Microsoft Sam unless they absolutely had to, so that's a very poor comparison. I would not use Narrator unless I had to, either, but I would not upgrade from a platform with which I can access all of my previously purchased software to one with which I cannot, just for a better Narrator. Can I play text adventure games using Windows 8.1? How about Lone Wolf and Tenpin Alley? Jim Kitchen's games? If these cannot be played, why upgrade? I cannot see spending more money to get less access. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2013 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Devin, Interesting enough you have hit upon one issue that should convince people to upgrade if nothing else. The Sapi voices for XP such as Microsoft Sam, Mary, and Mike were absolutely terrible. The newer Sapi 5.5 voices that come with Windows 8 are much better , and are certainly decent for games and other TTS enabled applications. If nothing else better Sapi voices should be one thing that would interest XP users in upgrading to Windows 8 or Windows 8.1. Cheers! On 12/24/13, Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com wrote: I totally agree with the devs on this one. I have a Windows 7 laptop, a mac desktop, an iPod touch, and soon, tomorrow in fact, a new android phone, running, unfortunately, android 4.0, the latest being 4.4. Anyway, I seriously don't see much need in sticking with XP
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Charles I have no answers for you. All I know is that something will have to happen. All I know is we can't go on as we are. I have no idea what that will mean and yes we may lose some stuff I just don't know. All I am saying is that there will be a time when what we used and loved will be gone. Think of all the synbian phones and nokia going to inaccessable win8. Ok se have a bit of access now but still its valid. I'd like to stay with nokia and symbian but the next thing I move to may have to be something other than I am used to. We have 2 choices. We can do it now at our own pace or we can wait another 10 years, when ms finally dropps their legacy software and handle it then. But if we do we may lose all audio games that are not converted. Now it will not be all games, but it will be a good deal. We have till at least the end of win8 to decide what we do. Ms however is vary generous I doubt this will stay for long. Look at xp its been vary good about keeping it for so long past its used by date. At 04:29 PM 12/25/2013, you wrote: Many people in the blind gaming community still use XP, yet you push us to switch tu 7 or above. So much for the third point. As to the second, should Jim Kitchen stop using what he is comfortable using to create games, cutting those with older systems out as far as being able to access his games? Should he learn a newer language in order to cater to the new while losing the old? I don't think so. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2013 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Shaun, Although I basically agree with your sentiments next time you should try and word your opinions using less profanity and not be so harsh. The way you worded your message below could be very offensive to some developers and I'd prefer we not do that while expressing a point of view. That said, the points you raised do need to be openly discussed. As for your first point I agree Visual Basic 6 has passed its prime and game developers do need to move on with something else. It has been unsupported since 2008, a good five years ago, and a lot of Visual Basic 6 components are broken on newer Windows platforms. I strongly feel that developers would be better served if they stopped developing games and other software in VB 6 and started using something else better suited to newer Windows releases. As to your second point about language I'm not really sure about Pure Basic as a replacement for Visual Basic 6. I do not know it well so can't really judge it accurately. What I do know is that Visual Basic .NET would be a very decent replacement for Visual Basic 6. Combined with SlimDX VB .NET would be modern, offer VB developers more features, and still have the familiarity of Visual Basic they have come to like. As for your third point I disagree. Switching over to 64-bit exclusively right now would be a huge mistake for any developer. The reason is that there are plenty of computers out there running Vista, Windows 7, etc on older 32-bit hardware. I see no need to drop those users and their computers just because they don't have a modern processor. I myself have a handful of 32-bit computers that have been refurbished and upgraded to Windows 7 and I'd be blowing my own foot off by dropping support for 32-bit Windows machines not to mention not being able to sell to anyone else who was running similarly upgraded machines for no real gain. As for your fourth point I agree that game developers need to begin supporting something other than DirectSound. Especially, if 3d audio etc is involved. DirectSound is OK for basic 2d stereo panning but beyond that it is seriously problematic on Windows Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8, and is a poor choice for audio gaming now days. I think right now OpenAL is the best all around choice for audio game developers, and should be seriously considered for future audio games. As for your final point about supported hardware that all depends on the type of game and of course the platform involved. While supporting joysticks, mice, and keyboards is a good idea as a general rule of thumb there are cases where such support is unnecessary. To give you an example STFC was by and large a menu driven game. I could not see adding joystick support or mouse support would improve that game in any specific way. On the other hand a game like GMA's Tank Commander would be awesome with joystick and mouse support. So it all depends on the type of game being considered. Cheers! On 12/21/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well I don't know exactly how this would need to change in practical terms but there needs to be some serious canges. I won't mince words, and I am going to be blunt. I am
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
I see your point. I do wander in that case what the future of audiogames will be. Its obvious that in the short term a lot of what we know will probably die off. Its almost we need a shot up the rear but question is what. I once thought getting main stream companies on our side or making games to equal things like that. At 06:22 PM 12/25/2013, you wrote: Hi Shaun: Well, I can't share any actual figures, but what I can say is I have been told by other accessible game developers that none of them actually made much money off the games they wrote. I have heard roomers that some games only averaged around $10,000 USD, and that was for a game that was relatively popular. Other games were lucky if they only grossed about $5,000 which is pretty much nothing considering the time, effort, and work that goes into an audio game of any complexity. The thing is the blind community is quite a minority market in general, and it is even worse for an audio game developer because it is usually only a small fraction of the over all blind community as a whole who have computers and regularly buy games. So no the gaming industry is not a huge money maker in terms of audio games. Cheers! On 12/24/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: I agree. The reason I still use xp apart from liking the find features and the sound recorder plus the simple interface are all the games that still use direct sound and vb6 code. Oh would I like to say Look I will go full time to 7. I have 7 I even have 8 if I want it. But there are just some things like some older games excluding bsc and others that are now no longer round anymore that use old outdated code. I guess its the gaming industry is just really not a huge money maker. I'd really like to know the status of some of the devs. Some stuff is concreet, some is rumours. Now I know it may cost and I know it is hard I do know since I am in the business designing sfx for a small team, and I do know vb6 has been a bench mark for a lot of the origional and current titles but that really needs to change. As a user I wouldn't mind to get concrete info from each dev. I know lworks is moving towards using non vb6 code. now if only liam can make superliam1 and judgement day have automatic registeration codes. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Shaun and all, Well, here is what I think will happen. I don't think it is anything to be afraid of because as I have said many times a lot of the stuff we have now can be run on Windows 8.1 with a little bit of tinkering. Yes, while there will be certain issues such as 3d audio support is broken in games like Shades of Doom, Tank Commander, etc it isn't an insurmountable issue. I have played Shades of Doom many times on Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1 using stereo mixing which is less precise but doable. What I think is going to happen is eventually a lot of people running XP right now will have to buy new computers running Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 8.1. It is not so much a question of if but when. Let's say sometime in the next five years or so the XP user base will slowly but eventually upgrade to a newer machine, new OS, and obviously they will want games that are compatible with their new computers. As the number of blind users running something like Windows 8 grows developers will have to follow suit. They probably will be running newer computers themselves and will have to take some time to look at alternatives such as Visual Basic .NET, C# .NET, Java, whatever. I don't know if they will choose to rewrite any of their older games or not, but I feel confident that newer games will be coming out designed for Windows 7 and up just because by then most of the user base will be running something other than XP anyway. The other thing in our favor is that developers are already slowly moving away from Visual Basic 6 and are looking into more modern technology's. This won't happen all at once, but we are slowly moving away from VB 6 as a general rule. Draconis has a new engine written in C++ , and are rewriting many of their old titles. BPC Programs uses .NET which is already Windows 8.x compatible , and I don't see them having a big problem upgrading their software. Blind Adrenaline is using .NET and I don't see Che having a problem with his games on Windows 8 and beyond either. Entombed is similarly written in .NET and should have a decent shelf life assuming Jason maintains the code. There are quite a few developers using BGT now, and that is reasonably Windows 7 and Windows 8.x compatible currently/. So I wouldn't worry too much about new games being compatible as it seems as though developers are slowly but surely moving away from VB 6 in general. In short, we may have a few problems with older games, and some may stop working. However, by and large it won't be as bad as people fear. Many will still work on the newer platforms, and those that don't may get fixed or upgraded. If there comes a time that something won't work at all there is still the option to run XP etc in a virtual machine which gives a user the best of both worlds. Some people will undoubtedly drag their heals, but like you said I think the best thing to do is upgrade on your own terms rather than be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern computing world. Cheers! On 12/26/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Charles I have no answers for you. All I know is that something will have to happen. All I know is we can't go on as we are. I have no idea what that will mean and yes we may lose some stuff I just don't know. All I am saying is that there will be a time when what we used and loved will be gone. Think of all the synbian phones and nokia going to inaccessable win8. Ok se have a bit of access now but still its valid. I'd like to stay with nokia and symbian but the next thing I move to may have to be something other than I am used to. We have 2 choices. We can do it now at our own pace or we can wait another 10 years, when ms finally dropps their legacy software and handle it then. But if we do we may lose all audio games that are not converted. Now it will not be all games, but it will be a good deal. We have till at least the end of win8 to decide what we do. Ms however is vary generous I doubt this will stay for long. Look at xp its been vary good about keeping it for so long past its used by date. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Shaun, Well, the money is precisely the reason we can't get big mainstream companies on our side. If a game developer says he made $10,000 last year on game x the mainstream companies will laugh in our faces. Sony, Capcom, Nintendo, Activision, EA Games, and others are use to making millions off a single title. Something like $10,000 is laughable. That would not even cover the salary of their lead developer who would be asked to rewrite portions of the game to make it accessible. Of course, I suspect mainstream developers would have much more success than anyone here, but the whole idea is they do not see much money in it compared to what they are already making. However, as for the idea that the audio games will die off I don't really see that happening per say. Sure some games will have problems, there may be a few compatibility issues, but as game developers and users upgrade they will have to address those compatibility issues eventually. I don't think it is so much a question of if but when all this will happen. Cheers! On 12/26/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: I see your point. I do wander in that case what the future of audiogames will be. Its obvious that in the short term a lot of what we know will probably die off. Its almost we need a shot up the rear but question is what. I once thought getting main stream companies on our side or making games to equal things like that. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
@Draconis: I haven't bought Change Reaction 2 or Silver Dollar either for Mac or Windows, so I can't compare the two versions... However I tried your games before you introduced your new engine. I am talking now not of technical features or your internal design of the engine or the games. I however remember the time where there still was a long and nice readme file or some form of a game manual which you could access without running said game, allthough some ingame help, samples (not for a trial version, but for learning game play mechanics) or some interactive tutorials are also not a bad idea. Since I haven't seen the full versions of Silver Dollar or Change Reaction 2, I can only comment on the Windows version of the Draconis Show Case program... And I am seriously wondering why it is impossible to actually choose which of your SAPI voices you want to read for you and why it seems that interupting any speech takes a long time meaning that when any key is pressed or any demo or level or recording is started the voice still reads the description of that game or game mode while the recording or game level is already running, which should not be. If I want to listen to any description of a game mode, I'll surely listen to the entire thing. But when I know what I want to do, I want to skip that, but not that it still is talking while I have already started something. @the users who actually have either Silver Dollar or Change Reaction 2 for Windows: is it the same with SAPI for you in that you can't choose the SAPI voice from within the game and takes it over a second to interupt any spoken message like help or game or mode descriptions before you actually start them? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
I know that XP is near its end. I also know that there are newer operating systems (just the ones from Microsoft). I know that security is a factor which might bring people to upgrade at some point. True, if XP is now longer supported, hackers and other people can possibly find holes in the security systems. And true, not every antivirus program can protect you from such attacks. However, the viruses are not the only danger when it comes to using the internet. Criminals who manipulate websites to not directly target your computer but to record or capture the communication the moment it leaves your computer are more dangerous. If you are on a manipulated website and whatever interactions you have with that site (be it loggin in, doing money transfers or whatever) might be captured without the need of actually cracking some form of encryption. I think that there is a term for such indirect attacks: man in the browser or something like that. And I also think that it has not to be limited to the web browser itself. But that is the extend of that. Fact is that such types of attacks might be a bigger problems. Such is not a form of direct attack where the fact that you have an outdated system might mean nothing. If the transfered data is redirected away from the route it is supposed to take, you can't see it right now. And if such a form of attack happens, it is totally of no consequence whether you used XP or Windows 8.1. And I am sure that this is not the point some people tried to originally make. I am all for better security systems for my computer, but I need to get a manual which explains to me the (probably not knowledgeable) user what I should do and what I shouldn't do. Since XP users had their let's call it Classic design and programs, they might be confused or might be afraid of things like Modern UI in Windows 8 and higher. I won't say that everyone won't be able to adapt in time if they want to, but who will tell them the inns and outs of Windows 8 compared to XP (if your last operating system was XP). These are of course only examples. And let's not forget that Microsoft loves to drop a lot of programs out of their systems without replacements or with suboptimal replacements. This is just for as an argument, but I will adress them shortly. XP has Outlook Express. I have no idea if it is a bad program (security related) or if it is horribly outdated for an E-Mail program. It however does its job. Vista had Windows Mail which according to my mother (she is sighted) is like a newer version of Outlook Express with some new features and some altered ones. Then there is Windows 7 which still has a Windows Mail program with its own folder, but it is totally disabled and effectively unusable. Then back in the day (near the initial release of Windows 7( it was strongly suggested that users who had first switched from Outlook Express to Windows Mail should switch again to Windows Live Mail, which is free, but now longer a part of Windows itself. The same goes for Windows Movie Maker. Windows Movie maker is a tool for actually editing or recording videos. But Windows Live Movie Maker is not a new version of Windows Movie Maker. The newer program is part of Windows Live and more for sharing your videos or for publishing them on video sharing services. But enough of that. There is another interesting thing I'd like to mention here, allthough I did not experience it myself. I read that the rather old Bavisoft games wouldn't work on Windows 7. I of course have no idea why or which component(s) might be missing. I know that several developers mentioned that VB6 or other older technologies are outdated and that there are replacements for them. But I as an end user are not in the position to force the developer (Bavisoft in this example) to make their games compatible with Windows 7. If Bavisoft were still around, I could ask them nicely if they would be so kind as to do something. But if they would refuse I still would have a bought product which I could not use. True, it would be the developer's fault, but is this reason enough to purposefully drop older runtime components from Windows just because the developer product is outdated? I mean, look at Jim Kitchen's games. They use the VB6 runtime. On XP most of the runtime files should be present by default. On Windows 7 they are not just because the system is newer. At least it looks this way from the viewpoint of the end user. Luckily the main installer for the game can install the runtime files on newer Windows versions. But would it have been hard for MS to not remove the components in the first place? Obviously installing them yourself doesn't destroy your Windows right away. And why should the users of third party software be punished with incompatibility if it would have been these software developers who should have upgraded their development technology in the first place? And which standard end user
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Michael, Answers throughout your message: *snip* @Draconis: I haven't bought Change Reaction 2 or Silver Dollar either for Mac or Windows, so I can't compare the two versions... However I tried your games before you introduced your new engine. I am talking now not of technical features or your internal design of the engine or the games. I however remember the time where there still was a long and nice readme file or some form of a game manual which you could access without running said game, allthough some ingame help, samples (not for a trial version, but for learning game play mechanics) or some interactive tutorials are also not a bad idea. *snip* Modern video games typically include instructions, tutorials, etc, inside the game itself. Additionally, large numbers of users were confused, as they never looked for the manual that was installed in the Start menu. They just ran the game from the desktop shortcuts, causing them to contact us wondering how to play the games they had purchased. We think including instructions inside the game is a much more intuitive solution. Including the game instructions inside the game also allows us to embed sound effects in the text which helps illustrate game play in a more effective way, which cannot be done in the same way with a text file. We have debated whether or not to offer downloadable manuals from the website for newer titles, so that users who really want them can download them, but we’ve gotten so few requests for text manuals that, so far, we feel our resources are better spent developing new products. It’s probably worth noting that this list’s active members tend to forget that they are not the whole of the blind gaming community. While most of the active members here have been around long enough to check the start menu for game manuals, etc, that is not true for the majority of the customer base. *snip* Since I haven't seen the full versions of Silver Dollar or Change Reaction 2, I can only comment on the Windows version of the Draconis Show Case program... And I am seriously wondering why it is impossible to actually choose which of your SAPI voices you want to read for you and why it seems that interupting any speech takes a long time meaning that when any key is pressed or any demo or level or recording is started the voice still reads the description of that game or game mode while the recording or game level is already running, which should not be. If I want to listen to any description of a game mode, I'll surely listen to the entire thing. But when I know what I want to do, I want to skip that, but not that it still is talking while I have already started something. @the users who actually have either Silver Dollar or Change Reaction 2 for Windows: is it the same with SAPI for you in that you can't choose the SAPI voice from within the game and takes it over a second to interupt any spoken message like help or game or mode descriptions before you actually start them? *snip* Whatever voice you have chosen as your system voice for Windows will be used in the game. If you change your system voice, the game will use the new selection. Some third-party voices, as far as we have been able to determine, do not correctly implement the Windows speech API, and it sounds like those are the problems you are running into. I suspect if you changed your system voice to, for example, one of the defaults provided by Microsoft, you would not see the same problems. We haven’t had the time or resources to devote to testing with very many third-party SAPI voices, especially since, so far, Windows sales have not justified that much effort or expense. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi all, I have Silverdollar for mac, and enjoy it when there is nothing else to do. Its a fun way to pass the time for 15 minutes or so, and I believe that was its purpose. I do love this new engine, and am thinking about getting change reaction. On Dec 26, 2013, at 4:22 PM, Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de wrote: @Draconis: I haven't bought Change Reaction 2 or Silver Dollar either for Mac or Windows, so I can't compare the two versions... However I tried your games before you introduced your new engine. I am talking now not of technical features or your internal design of the engine or the games. I however remember the time where there still was a long and nice readme file or some form of a game manual which you could access without running said game, allthough some ingame help, samples (not for a trial version, but for learning game play mechanics) or some interactive tutorials are also not a bad idea. Since I haven't seen the full versions of Silver Dollar or Change Reaction 2, I can only comment on the Windows version of the Draconis Show Case program... And I am seriously wondering why it is impossible to actually choose which of your SAPI voices you want to read for you and why it seems that interupting any speech takes a long time meaning that when any key is pressed or any demo or level or recording is started the voice still reads the description of that game or game mode while the recording or game level is already running, which should not be. If I want to listen to any description of a game mode, I'll surely listen to the entire thing. But when I know what I want to do, I want to skip that, but not that it still is talking while I have already started something. @the users who actually have either Silver Dollar or Change Reaction 2 for Windows: is it the same with SAPI for you in that you can't choose the SAPI voice from within the game and takes it over a second to interupt any spoken message like help or game or mode descriptions before you actually start them? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
If it can be done, although it is done differently, that's fine. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 12:28 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Charles: You can certainly play several text adventure games on Windows 8.1. If you have Winfrotz you can play pretty much every game written in Inform and ZCode that was ever written with your screen reader or Sapi speech output. If you have Agility for Windows you can play old text adventures written in AGT, and Tads32 will allow you to play various games written in Tads. So when it comes to text adventures you can pretty much play everything available for XP accept for those Dos games compiled for 16-bit systems such as Eamon Deluxe. As for Jim Kitchen's games I have gotten them to work on Windows 8.1 as well. I admit it takes a bit of fiddling to get them to work, but it can certainly be done. What I do is install the Winkit file to get the Visual Basic 6 runtime libraries installed, and then I install his games to a directory like c:\Users\Thomas\Kitchensinc where they will work without having issues with User Account Control. As long as you know how to set up the Kitchen's Inc. games you won't have a problem with them. I haven't tried Ten Pin Alley, but I have tried Lone Wolf 3.5 on Windows 8.1 and it works alright. Again, it just basically requires you install the proper libraries and make sure it is in a local directory rather than in c:\Program Files or c:\Program Files (x86). As to the issue of upgrading I have repeatedly gave reasons why I think people should upgrade. I'm not going to repeat it here as I'd just be wasting both my time and energy rewriting what I have said. All I will say in response is since those games can still be played your excuse not to upgrade is not valid based on compatibility alone. Cheers! On 12/24/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: I would not upgrade to get better voices than those I already have, which are good enough. Nobody in their right mind would use Microsoft Sam unless they absolutely had to, so that's a very poor comparison. I would not use Narrator unless I had to, either, but I would not upgrade from a platform with which I can access all of my previously purchased software to one with which I cannot, just for a better Narrator. Can I play text adventure games using Windows 8.1? How about Lone Wolf and Tenpin Alley? Jim Kitchen's games? If these cannot be played, why upgrade? I cannot see spending more money to get less access. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Tom, Cara, and all, One funny thing about this conversation, and I don’t mean “ha ha” funny, is that we see on this list on an ongoing basis, people struggling to find ways to play older games on newer machines with newer operating systems. We hear their frustrations, their hacks, and so on. In fact, this is one of the chief reasons Dark and others give for refusing to upgrade. And then these same folks who don’t want to upgrade say that we should keep making games for XP, pointing out that many of our customers are still running it. They ignore the consequences that would negatively impact both themselves and the developers if that course of action was taken. They are exacerbating the problem, by demanding games be developed with obsolete technologies that they will, sooner or later, be complaining won’t work properly when they are forced to get a new system. Developers would be adding to the number of games that need hacks and workarounds to run. They are putting an incredibly short lifespan on new titles created with these technologies, meaning that the developer’s work is unlikely to be fully compensated. Pointing out that many users still run XP is a shortsighted view of the problem, and it is not how good business is done in any industry. In fact, it is that kind of shortsightedness that have put whole industries on the brink of disaster, like we saw with the record industry in the early 2000’s. They wanted to hang on to the old model, but the world was moving forward with or without them. They had to adapt. The way I see it, expending lots of energy supporting XP at this point may indeed reap short-term benefits for the developer where regards sales, but it comes at the price of the long term health of their business. You can eat out at fast-food restaurants everyday. It might be delicious at the moment while you’re doing it. But sooner or later, the health ramifications will catch up with you, and when they do, you will realize that that Big Mac really wasn’t worth the ultimate cost. On Dec 24, 2013, at 12:39 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Cara, My thoughts exactly. I have heard lots of reasons why or why not to upgrade to Windows 7, Windows 8, switch to Mac OS,etc, but I haven't heard anything constructive from those people how this situation could be resolved. Particularly by the audio game developers who are caught in the middle of Microsoft's decision to move forward with technologies and their customer's decisions not to upgrade for one reason or another. It is not an easy decision to make, and not an easy one with a quick and simple answer. To give an example I think a lot of gamers are aware that DirectX, the primary Windows API for creating games, has undergone a major change over the last few years. DirectSound has been phased out in favor of XAudio2, DirectInput is slowly being replaced by XInput, DirectMusic and DirectPlay were dropped altogether, and so on. Clearly a game developer is being forced to make a choice to use older no longer supported components to support Windows XP and earlier, or they will have to bite the bullet and just use the new DirectX components for Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, and beyond. We are reaching a point where it is one way or the other, and its not as simple as support both which frankly speaking isn't that easy to do. So I, for one, would like to here the XP users' answers to these and other problems created by this situation. There are really only a small handful of options, and all have negative consequences. 1. Either all of the blind users realize XP and its components are no longer supported and upgrade. While this will certainly make it easier for developers to support their new operating system I am fully aware that for many this option is unpleasant because it will cost money, they will lose the familiarity and ease of use of their current OS., and as Dark has pointed out may have little over all benefit for that person. 2. The developers can attempt to support both, but at added cost and extra time. Since two completely different APIs and platforms will need to be supported a developer is looking at nearly twice the time to upgrade, maintain, and release products at a loss to the developer. Therefore in order to insure backwards compatibility he or she will probably have to consider raising prices for the added inconvenience which I am certain nobody really wants. 3. The developers can choose what he or she thinks is best, and forget about compatibility with certain versions of Windows. Obviously this is a win/lose situation because whichever group is supported will buy the games and the excluded group won't. This will probably end up as a loss for the developer, and I don't need to remind people if developers do not have money for sounds, music, and perhaps a bit of his/her time they probably won't stick around unless they do it
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Josh, Well said. It is precisely for that reason that once I complete MOTA and Raceway all future games will specifically be designed using newer APIs with Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 in mind. I fully realize that designing for XP may satisfy a lot of customers for the short term, but they won't be thanking me when they finally do have to upgrade because the technologies used don't work properly on Windows 8. To give an example I think a lot of gamers here realize I am really into FPS type games. Therefore 3d audio is pretty much a given requirement for that genre of audio game, and it so happens DirectSound is broken big time on Vista, Win 7, and Win 8. The only way I can add decent 3d audio support to my future titles is by using XAudio2 or perhaps OpenAL. If I choose to use XAudio2, the new API for newer Windows platforms, sooner or later it will break compatibility with XP, but will resolve 3d audio problems for Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 users there by making it easier for me to support newer Windows releases as they come out since I can reasonably assume XAudio2 will be the defacto audio API for games in any new Windows releases while DirectSound such as it is will only be shipped for legacy support and will not get any new updates or bug fixes. That is a pretty serious problem, because although XAudio2 has some bugs that need fixed we can pretty much bet that Microsoft will fix those bugs in newer releases of XAudio2 for Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, and beyond, but not for XP. Meaning users are not doing themselves any favors by hanging onto their older buggy software, and developers aren't doing them any favors by supporting it at the cost of excluding newer Windows releases. Cheers! On 12/24/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Tom, Cara, and all, One funny thing about this conversation, and I don’t mean “ha ha” funny, is that we see on this list on an ongoing basis, people struggling to find ways to play older games on newer machines with newer operating systems. We hear their frustrations, their hacks, and so on. In fact, this is one of the chief reasons Dark and others give for refusing to upgrade. And then these same folks who don’t want to upgrade say that we should keep making games for XP, pointing out that many of our customers are still running it. They ignore the consequences that would negatively impact both themselves and the developers if that course of action was taken. They are exacerbating the problem, by demanding games be developed with obsolete technologies that they will, sooner or later, be complaining won’t work properly when they are forced to get a new system. Developers would be adding to the number of games that need hacks and workarounds to run. They are putting an incredibly short lifespan on new titles created with these technologies, meaning that the developer’s work is unlikely to be fully compensated. Pointing out that many users still run XP is a shortsighted view of the problem, and it is not how good business is done in any industry. In fact, it is that kind of shortsightedness that have put whole industries on the brink of disaster, like we saw with the record industry in the early 2000’s. They wanted to hang on to the old model, but the world was moving forward with or without them. They had to adapt. The way I see it, expending lots of energy supporting XP at this point may indeed reap short-term benefits for the developer where regards sales, but it comes at the price of the long term health of their business. You can eat out at fast-food restaurants everyday. It might be delicious at the moment while you’re doing it. But sooner or later, the health ramifications will catch up with you, and when they do, you will realize that that Big Mac really wasn’t worth the ultimate cost. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
I totally agree with the devs on this one. I have a Windows 7 laptop, a mac desktop, an iPod touch, and soon, tomorrow in fact, a new android phone, running, unfortunately, android 4.0, the latest being 4.4. Anyway, I seriously don't see much need in sticking with XP anymore. Windows 7 is good, windows 8 is cool, so my goodness, why not leave Microsoft Sam and his depression behind? Sent from my iPod On Dec 24, 2013, at 10:49, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Josh, Well said. It is precisely for that reason that once I complete MOTA and Raceway all future games will specifically be designed using newer APIs with Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 in mind. I fully realize that designing for XP may satisfy a lot of customers for the short term, but they won't be thanking me when they finally do have to upgrade because the technologies used don't work properly on Windows 8. To give an example I think a lot of gamers here realize I am really into FPS type games. Therefore 3d audio is pretty much a given requirement for that genre of audio game, and it so happens DirectSound is broken big time on Vista, Win 7, and Win 8. The only way I can add decent 3d audio support to my future titles is by using XAudio2 or perhaps OpenAL. If I choose to use XAudio2, the new API for newer Windows platforms, sooner or later it will break compatibility with XP, but will resolve 3d audio problems for Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 users there by making it easier for me to support newer Windows releases as they come out since I can reasonably assume XAudio2 will be the defacto audio API for games in any new Windows releases while DirectSound such as it is will only be shipped for legacy support and will not get any new updates or bug fixes. That is a pretty serious problem, because although XAudio2 has some bugs that need fixed we can pretty much bet that Microsoft will fix those bugs in newer releases of XAudio2 for Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, and beyond, but not for XP. Meaning users are not doing themselves any favors by hanging onto their older buggy software, and developers aren't doing them any favors by supporting it at the cost of excluding newer Windows releases. Cheers! On 12/24/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Tom, Cara, and all, One funny thing about this conversation, and I don’t mean “ha ha” funny, is that we see on this list on an ongoing basis, people struggling to find ways to play older games on newer machines with newer operating systems. We hear their frustrations, their hacks, and so on. In fact, this is one of the chief reasons Dark and others give for refusing to upgrade. And then these same folks who don’t want to upgrade say that we should keep making games for XP, pointing out that many of our customers are still running it. They ignore the consequences that would negatively impact both themselves and the developers if that course of action was taken. They are exacerbating the problem, by demanding games be developed with obsolete technologies that they will, sooner or later, be complaining won’t work properly when they are forced to get a new system. Developers would be adding to the number of games that need hacks and workarounds to run. They are putting an incredibly short lifespan on new titles created with these technologies, meaning that the developer’s work is unlikely to be fully compensated. Pointing out that many users still run XP is a shortsighted view of the problem, and it is not how good business is done in any industry. In fact, it is that kind of shortsightedness that have put whole industries on the brink of disaster, like we saw with the record industry in the early 2000’s. They wanted to hang on to the old model, but the world was moving forward with or without them. They had to adapt. The way I see it, expending lots of energy supporting XP at this point may indeed reap short-term benefits for the developer where regards sales, but it comes at the price of the long term health of their business. You can eat out at fast-food restaurants everyday. It might be delicious at the moment while you’re doing it. But sooner or later, the health ramifications will catch up with you, and when they do, you will realize that that Big Mac really wasn’t worth the ultimate cost. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
hi. wow, what a mix of systems you have! haha. good way to go though, as that way you have the best of all worlds. and yes, i agree, leave poor, depressed, out of sorts, slow, and otherwise painful arthritic sam behind. rofl. dallas On 25/12/2013, Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com wrote: I totally agree with the devs on this one. I have a Windows 7 laptop, a mac desktop, an iPod touch, and soon, tomorrow in fact, a new android phone, running, unfortunately, android 4.0, the latest being 4.4. Anyway, I seriously don't see much need in sticking with XP anymore. Windows 7 is good, windows 8 is cool, so my goodness, why not leave Microsoft Sam and his depression behind? Sent from my iPod On Dec 24, 2013, at 10:49, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Josh, Well said. It is precisely for that reason that once I complete MOTA and Raceway all future games will specifically be designed using newer APIs with Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 in mind. I fully realize that designing for XP may satisfy a lot of customers for the short term, but they won't be thanking me when they finally do have to upgrade because the technologies used don't work properly on Windows 8. To give an example I think a lot of gamers here realize I am really into FPS type games. Therefore 3d audio is pretty much a given requirement for that genre of audio game, and it so happens DirectSound is broken big time on Vista, Win 7, and Win 8. The only way I can add decent 3d audio support to my future titles is by using XAudio2 or perhaps OpenAL. If I choose to use XAudio2, the new API for newer Windows platforms, sooner or later it will break compatibility with XP, but will resolve 3d audio problems for Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 users there by making it easier for me to support newer Windows releases as they come out since I can reasonably assume XAudio2 will be the defacto audio API for games in any new Windows releases while DirectSound such as it is will only be shipped for legacy support and will not get any new updates or bug fixes. That is a pretty serious problem, because although XAudio2 has some bugs that need fixed we can pretty much bet that Microsoft will fix those bugs in newer releases of XAudio2 for Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, and beyond, but not for XP. Meaning users are not doing themselves any favors by hanging onto their older buggy software, and developers aren't doing them any favors by supporting it at the cost of excluding newer Windows releases. Cheers! On 12/24/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Tom, Cara, and all, One funny thing about this conversation, and I don’t mean “ha ha” funny, is that we see on this list on an ongoing basis, people struggling to find ways to play older games on newer machines with newer operating systems. We hear their frustrations, their hacks, and so on. In fact, this is one of the chief reasons Dark and others give for refusing to upgrade. And then these same folks who don’t want to upgrade say that we should keep making games for XP, pointing out that many of our customers are still running it. They ignore the consequences that would negatively impact both themselves and the developers if that course of action was taken. They are exacerbating the problem, by demanding games be developed with obsolete technologies that they will, sooner or later, be complaining won’t work properly when they are forced to get a new system. Developers would be adding to the number of games that need hacks and workarounds to run. They are putting an incredibly short lifespan on new titles created with these technologies, meaning that the developer’s work is unlikely to be fully compensated. Pointing out that many users still run XP is a shortsighted view of the problem, and it is not how good business is done in any industry. In fact, it is that kind of shortsightedness that have put whole industries on the brink of disaster, like we saw with the record industry in the early 2000’s. They wanted to hang on to the old model, but the world was moving forward with or without them. They had to adapt. The way I see it, expending lots of energy supporting XP at this point may indeed reap short-term benefits for the developer where regards sales, but it comes at the price of the long term health of their business. You can eat out at fast-food restaurants everyday. It might be delicious at the moment while you’re doing it. But sooner or later, the health ramifications will catch up with you, and when they do, you will realize that that Big Mac really wasn’t worth the ultimate cost. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Devin, Interesting enough you have hit upon one issue that should convince people to upgrade if nothing else. The Sapi voices for XP such as Microsoft Sam, Mary, and Mike were absolutely terrible. The newer Sapi 5.5 voices that come with Windows 8 are much better , and are certainly decent for games and other TTS enabled applications. If nothing else better Sapi voices should be one thing that would interest XP users in upgrading to Windows 8 or Windows 8.1. Cheers! On 12/24/13, Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com wrote: I totally agree with the devs on this one. I have a Windows 7 laptop, a mac desktop, an iPod touch, and soon, tomorrow in fact, a new android phone, running, unfortunately, android 4.0, the latest being 4.4. Anyway, I seriously don't see much need in sticking with XP anymore. Windows 7 is good, windows 8 is cool, so my goodness, why not leave Microsoft Sam and his depression behind? Sent from my iPod --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Shaun: Well, I can't share any actual figures, but what I can say is I have been told by other accessible game developers that none of them actually made much money off the games they wrote. I have heard roomers that some games only averaged around $10,000 USD, and that was for a game that was relatively popular. Other games were lucky if they only grossed about $5,000 which is pretty much nothing considering the time, effort, and work that goes into an audio game of any complexity. The thing is the blind community is quite a minority market in general, and it is even worse for an audio game developer because it is usually only a small fraction of the over all blind community as a whole who have computers and regularly buy games. So no the gaming industry is not a huge money maker in terms of audio games. Cheers! On 12/24/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: I agree. The reason I still use xp apart from liking the find features and the sound recorder plus the simple interface are all the games that still use direct sound and vb6 code. Oh would I like to say Look I will go full time to 7. I have 7 I even have 8 if I want it. But there are just some things like some older games excluding bsc and others that are now no longer round anymore that use old outdated code. I guess its the gaming industry is just really not a huge money maker. I'd really like to know the status of some of the devs. Some stuff is concreet, some is rumours. Now I know it may cost and I know it is hard I do know since I am in the business designing sfx for a small team, and I do know vb6 has been a bench mark for a lot of the origional and current titles but that really needs to change. As a user I wouldn't mind to get concrete info from each dev. I know lworks is moving towards using non vb6 code. now if only liam can make superliam1 and judgement day have automatic registeration codes. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Shaun, Although I basically agree with your sentiments next time you should try and word your opinions using less profanity and not be so harsh. The way you worded your message below could be very offensive to some developers and I'd prefer we not do that while expressing a point of view. That said, the points you raised do need to be openly discussed. As for your first point I agree Visual Basic 6 has passed its prime and game developers do need to move on with something else. It has been unsupported since 2008, a good five years ago, and a lot of Visual Basic 6 components are broken on newer Windows platforms. I strongly feel that developers would be better served if they stopped developing games and other software in VB 6 and started using something else better suited to newer Windows releases. As to your second point about language I'm not really sure about Pure Basic as a replacement for Visual Basic 6. I do not know it well so can't really judge it accurately. What I do know is that Visual Basic .NET would be a very decent replacement for Visual Basic 6. Combined with SlimDX VB .NET would be modern, offer VB developers more features, and still have the familiarity of Visual Basic they have come to like. As for your third point I disagree. Switching over to 64-bit exclusively right now would be a huge mistake for any developer. The reason is that there are plenty of computers out there running Vista, Windows 7, etc on older 32-bit hardware. I see no need to drop those users and their computers just because they don't have a modern processor. I myself have a handful of 32-bit computers that have been refurbished and upgraded to Windows 7 and I'd be blowing my own foot off by dropping support for 32-bit Windows machines not to mention not being able to sell to anyone else who was running similarly upgraded machines for no real gain. As for your fourth point I agree that game developers need to begin supporting something other than DirectSound. Especially, if 3d audio etc is involved. DirectSound is OK for basic 2d stereo panning but beyond that it is seriously problematic on Windows Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8, and is a poor choice for audio gaming now days. I think right now OpenAL is the best all around choice for audio game developers, and should be seriously considered for future audio games. As for your final point about supported hardware that all depends on the type of game and of course the platform involved. While supporting joysticks, mice, and keyboards is a good idea as a general rule of thumb there are cases where such support is unnecessary. To give you an example STFC was by and large a menu driven game. I could not see adding joystick support or mouse support would improve that game in any specific way. On the other hand a game like GMA's Tank Commander would be awesome with joystick and mouse support. So it all depends on the type of game being considered. Cheers! On 12/21/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well I don't know exactly how this would need to change in practical terms but there needs to be some serious canges. I won't mince words, and I am going to be blunt. I am not saying that any of this is easy in fact it may be darn hard but it needs to happen. 1. Visual basic 6 is a pile of crap, its shit and needs to die. Yes vb6 is good and simple but we all know that its support is unsertain and thats the big deal. I realise that 90% of all audiogames are still in vb6. Firstly we need to stop developing anything new in vb6. Next we need to convert over to something that is not vb6. that may mean python, vb dotnet or something. We need to start supporting 64 bit exclusively as this is probably going to be the future. We need to find either an 32 bit extender to run 16 bit programs like eamon in dos or find a way to run this stuff in a windows console or something same with dos games that can not be run by other means. 3. direct sound is als a pile of crap. Direct sound is good, but in later windows its broken and frankly its not even supported. So we need to move away from that. Using open al support or fsl is a good thing though there are some all direction echos that are part of the way it handles effects and it appears that its author can not fix those right now if ever. 3. game devices. Its probably not as important as the other 2 but more games need to start supporting mice, joysticks, etc as well as keyboard maybe even touch screens. We need things to support the latest tech if not gaming grade sertainly the basic tech. That was the keyboard, joystick and gamepad, now the mouse, touch tablet and stuff like that need to be added to that. In practice. I realise in the short term we are probably stuck with direct sound and probably vb6. It would be nice to get games that use more than the keyboard and or to get some that use the stick run a bit better but thats probably not going to happen, most use the
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
I agree with you draconis. You devs all of you should be looking at upgrading if you are not allready. I like old xp but I'd prefur to play games in 7 and 8. More games for xp? Well maybe that was when there was vista but seriously, I don't think people should keep making games in vb6 anymore or other stuff that can handle only the tech on xp. More games sure, but they need to be kept updated. At 04:50 AM 12/25/2013, you wrote: Hi Tom, Cara, and all, One funny thing about this conversation, and I don't mean ha ha funny, is that we see on this list on an ongoing basis, people struggling to find ways to play older games on newer machines with newer operating systems. We hear their frustrations, their hacks, and so on. In fact, this is one of the chief reasons Dark and others give for refusing to upgrade. And then these same folks who don't want to upgrade say that we should keep making games for XP, pointing out that many of our customers are still running it. They ignore the consequences that would negatively impact both themselves and the developers if that course of action was taken. They are exacerbating the problem, by demanding games be developed with obsolete technologies that they will, sooner or later, be complaining won't work properly when they are forced to get a new system. Developers would be adding to the number of games that need hacks and workarounds to run. They are putting an incredibly short lifespan on new titles created with these technologies, meaning that the developer's work is unlikely to be fully compensated. Pointing out that many users still run XP is a shortsighted view of the problem, and it is not how good business is done in any industry. In fact, it is that kind of shortsightedness that have put whole industries on the brink of disaster, like we saw with the record industry in the early 2000's. They wanted to hang on to the old model, but the world was moving forward with or without them. They had to adapt. The way I see it, expending lots of energy supporting XP at this point may indeed reap short-term benefits for the developer where regards sales, but it comes at the price of the long term health of their business. You can eat out at fast-food restaurants everyday. It might be delicious at the moment while you're doing it. But sooner or later, the health ramifications will catch up with you, and when they do, you will realize that that Big Mac really wasn't worth the ultimate cost. On Dec 24, 2013, at 12:39 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Cara, My thoughts exactly. I have heard lots of reasons why or why not to upgrade to Windows 7, Windows 8, switch to Mac OS,etc, but I haven't heard anything constructive from those people how this situation could be resolved. Particularly by the audio game developers who are caught in the middle of Microsoft's decision to move forward with technologies and their customer's decisions not to upgrade for one reason or another. It is not an easy decision to make, and not an easy one with a quick and simple answer. To give an example I think a lot of gamers are aware that DirectX, the primary Windows API for creating games, has undergone a major change over the last few years. DirectSound has been phased out in favor of XAudio2, DirectInput is slowly being replaced by XInput, DirectMusic and DirectPlay were dropped altogether, and so on. Clearly a game developer is being forced to make a choice to use older no longer supported components to support Windows XP and earlier, or they will have to bite the bullet and just use the new DirectX components for Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, and beyond. We are reaching a point where it is one way or the other, and its not as simple as support both which frankly speaking isn't that easy to do. So I, for one, would like to here the XP users' answers to these and other problems created by this situation. There are really only a small handful of options, and all have negative consequences. 1. Either all of the blind users realize XP and its components are no longer supported and upgrade. While this will certainly make it easier for developers to support their new operating system I am fully aware that for many this option is unpleasant because it will cost money, they will lose the familiarity and ease of use of their current OS., and as Dark has pointed out may have little over all benefit for that person. 2. The developers can attempt to support both, but at added cost and extra time. Since two completely different APIs and platforms will need to be supported a developer is looking at nearly twice the time to upgrade, maintain, and release products at a loss to the developer. Therefore in order to insure backwards compatibility he or she will probably have to consider raising prices for the added inconvenience which I am certain nobody really wants. 3. The developers can choose what he or she
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
I agree. The only reason I hang on to this old xp machine is to really play games that will only run on xp propperly. I do actually have a brand new i5 with win7 and an 8 upgrade I got this year and I have not really gamed on it much. At 05:49 AM 12/25/2013, you wrote: Hi Josh, Well said. It is precisely for that reason that once I complete MOTA and Raceway all future games will specifically be designed using newer APIs with Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 in mind. I fully realize that designing for XP may satisfy a lot of customers for the short term, but they won't be thanking me when they finally do have to upgrade because the technologies used don't work properly on Windows 8. To give an example I think a lot of gamers here realize I am really into FPS type games. Therefore 3d audio is pretty much a given requirement for that genre of audio game, and it so happens DirectSound is broken big time on Vista, Win 7, and Win 8. The only way I can add decent 3d audio support to my future titles is by using XAudio2 or perhaps OpenAL. If I choose to use XAudio2, the new API for newer Windows platforms, sooner or later it will break compatibility with XP, but will resolve 3d audio problems for Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 users there by making it easier for me to support newer Windows releases as they come out since I can reasonably assume XAudio2 will be the defacto audio API for games in any new Windows releases while DirectSound such as it is will only be shipped for legacy support and will not get any new updates or bug fixes. That is a pretty serious problem, because although XAudio2 has some bugs that need fixed we can pretty much bet that Microsoft will fix those bugs in newer releases of XAudio2 for Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, and beyond, but not for XP. Meaning users are not doing themselves any favors by hanging onto their older buggy software, and developers aren't doing them any favors by supporting it at the cost of excluding newer Windows releases. Cheers! On 12/24/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Tom, Cara, and all, One funny thing about this conversation, and I don't mean ha ha funny, is that we see on this list on an ongoing basis, people struggling to find ways to play older games on newer machines with newer operating systems. We hear their frustrations, their hacks, and so on. In fact, this is one of the chief reasons Dark and others give for refusing to upgrade. And then these same folks who don't want to upgrade say that we should keep making games for XP, pointing out that many of our customers are still running it. They ignore the consequences that would negatively impact both themselves and the developers if that course of action was taken. They are exacerbating the problem, by demanding games be developed with obsolete technologies that they will, sooner or later, be complaining won't work properly when they are forced to get a new system. Developers would be adding to the number of games that need hacks and workarounds to run. They are putting an incredibly short lifespan on new titles created with these technologies, meaning that the developer's work is unlikely to be fully compensated. Pointing out that many users still run XP is a shortsighted view of the problem, and it is not how good business is done in any industry. In fact, it is that kind of shortsightedness that have put whole industries on the brink of disaster, like we saw with the record industry in the early 2000's. They wanted to hang on to the old model, but the world was moving forward with or without them. They had to adapt. The way I see it, expending lots of energy supporting XP at this point may indeed reap short-term benefits for the developer where regards sales, but it comes at the price of the long term health of their business. You can eat out at fast-food restaurants everyday. It might be delicious at the moment while you're doing it. But sooner or later, the health ramifications will catch up with you, and when they do, you will realize that that Big Mac really wasn't worth the ultimate cost. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
I agree. The reason I still use xp apart from liking the find features and the sound recorder plus the simple interface are all the games that still use direct sound and vb6 code. Oh would I like to say Look I will go full time to 7. I have 7 I even have 8 if I want it. But there are just some things like some older games excluding bsc and others that are now no longer round anymore that use old outdated code. I guess its the gaming industry is just really not a huge money maker. I'd really like to know the status of some of the devs. Some stuff is concreet, some is rumours. Now I know it may cost and I know it is hard I do know since I am in the business designing sfx for a small team, and I do know vb6 has been a bench mark for a lot of the origional and current titles but that really needs to change. As a user I wouldn't mind to get concrete info from each dev. I know lworks is moving towards using non vb6 code. now if only liam can make superliam1 and judgement day have automatic registeration codes. At 06:39 PM 12/24/2013, you wrote: Hi Cara, My thoughts exactly. I have heard lots of reasons why or why not to upgrade to Windows 7, Windows 8, switch to Mac OS,etc, but I haven't heard anything constructive from those people how this situation could be resolved. Particularly by the audio game developers who are caught in the middle of Microsoft's decision to move forward with technologies and their customer's decisions not to upgrade for one reason or another. It is not an easy decision to make, and not an easy one with a quick and simple answer. To give an example I think a lot of gamers are aware that DirectX, the primary Windows API for creating games, has undergone a major change over the last few years. DirectSound has been phased out in favor of XAudio2, DirectInput is slowly being replaced by XInput, DirectMusic and DirectPlay were dropped altogether, and so on. Clearly a game developer is being forced to make a choice to use older no longer supported components to support Windows XP and earlier, or they will have to bite the bullet and just use the new DirectX components for Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, and beyond. We are reaching a point where it is one way or the other, and its not as simple as support both which frankly speaking isn't that easy to do. So I, for one, would like to here the XP users' answers to these and other problems created by this situation. There are really only a small handful of options, and all have negative consequences. 1. Either all of the blind users realize XP and its components are no longer supported and upgrade. While this will certainly make it easier for developers to support their new operating system I am fully aware that for many this option is unpleasant because it will cost money, they will lose the familiarity and ease of use of their current OS., and as Dark has pointed out may have little over all benefit for that person. 2. The developers can attempt to support both, but at added cost and extra time. Since two completely different APIs and platforms will need to be supported a developer is looking at nearly twice the time to upgrade, maintain, and release products at a loss to the developer. Therefore in order to insure backwards compatibility he or she will probably have to consider raising prices for the added inconvenience which I am certain nobody really wants. 3. The developers can choose what he or she thinks is best, and forget about compatibility with certain versions of Windows. Obviously this is a win/lose situation because whichever group is supported will buy the games and the excluded group won't. This will probably end up as a loss for the developer, and I don't need to remind people if developers do not have money for sounds, music, and perhaps a bit of his/her time they probably won't stick around unless they do it specifically as a hobby like some game developers do. 4. the last option is to design a game using open source libraries and APIs that are known to work on both equally well. While this works it has it sown pros and cons which may impact a certain project and not be a feasible option in every single case. So unless there is an API available that supports each and every platform equally, has everything a developer needs, they are truly stuck. Bottom line, I'd like to here the communities answers to these problems. I am growing tired of people saying they won't upgrade, but have no advice for me as a developer how I am expected to support them and my customers running new computers too. Cheers! On 12/20/13, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote: Hi Charles and all, So moving forward then, how do we address this situation for people so this song does not need to keep getting played over and over and over again? What steps might this community start taking now so that the situation can improve and continue to do so? Obviously this is not only a game-related topic or one only related to
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
I would not upgrade to get better voices than those I already have, which are good enough. Nobody in their right mind would use Microsoft Sam unless they absolutely had to, so that's a very poor comparison. I would not use Narrator unless I had to, either, but I would not upgrade from a platform with which I can access all of my previously purchased software to one with which I cannot, just for a better Narrator. Can I play text adventure games using Windows 8.1? How about Lone Wolf and Tenpin Alley? Jim Kitchen's games? If these cannot be played, why upgrade? I cannot see spending more money to get less access. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2013 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Devin, Interesting enough you have hit upon one issue that should convince people to upgrade if nothing else. The Sapi voices for XP such as Microsoft Sam, Mary, and Mike were absolutely terrible. The newer Sapi 5.5 voices that come with Windows 8 are much better , and are certainly decent for games and other TTS enabled applications. If nothing else better Sapi voices should be one thing that would interest XP users in upgrading to Windows 8 or Windows 8.1. Cheers! On 12/24/13, Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com wrote: I totally agree with the devs on this one. I have a Windows 7 laptop, a mac desktop, an iPod touch, and soon, tomorrow in fact, a new android phone, running, unfortunately, android 4.0, the latest being 4.4. Anyway, I seriously don't see much need in sticking with XP anymore. Windows 7 is good, windows 8 is cool, so my goodness, why not leave Microsoft Sam and his depression behind? Sent from my iPod --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Many people in the blind gaming community still use XP, yet you push us to switch tu 7 or above. So much for the third point. As to the second, should Jim Kitchen stop using what he is comfortable using to create games, cutting those with older systems out as far as being able to access his games? Should he learn a newer language in order to cater to the new while losing the old? I don't think so. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2013 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Shaun, Although I basically agree with your sentiments next time you should try and word your opinions using less profanity and not be so harsh. The way you worded your message below could be very offensive to some developers and I'd prefer we not do that while expressing a point of view. That said, the points you raised do need to be openly discussed. As for your first point I agree Visual Basic 6 has passed its prime and game developers do need to move on with something else. It has been unsupported since 2008, a good five years ago, and a lot of Visual Basic 6 components are broken on newer Windows platforms. I strongly feel that developers would be better served if they stopped developing games and other software in VB 6 and started using something else better suited to newer Windows releases. As to your second point about language I'm not really sure about Pure Basic as a replacement for Visual Basic 6. I do not know it well so can't really judge it accurately. What I do know is that Visual Basic .NET would be a very decent replacement for Visual Basic 6. Combined with SlimDX VB .NET would be modern, offer VB developers more features, and still have the familiarity of Visual Basic they have come to like. As for your third point I disagree. Switching over to 64-bit exclusively right now would be a huge mistake for any developer. The reason is that there are plenty of computers out there running Vista, Windows 7, etc on older 32-bit hardware. I see no need to drop those users and their computers just because they don't have a modern processor. I myself have a handful of 32-bit computers that have been refurbished and upgraded to Windows 7 and I'd be blowing my own foot off by dropping support for 32-bit Windows machines not to mention not being able to sell to anyone else who was running similarly upgraded machines for no real gain. As for your fourth point I agree that game developers need to begin supporting something other than DirectSound. Especially, if 3d audio etc is involved. DirectSound is OK for basic 2d stereo panning but beyond that it is seriously problematic on Windows Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8, and is a poor choice for audio gaming now days. I think right now OpenAL is the best all around choice for audio game developers, and should be seriously considered for future audio games. As for your final point about supported hardware that all depends on the type of game and of course the platform involved. While supporting joysticks, mice, and keyboards is a good idea as a general rule of thumb there are cases where such support is unnecessary. To give you an example STFC was by and large a menu driven game. I could not see adding joystick support or mouse support would improve that game in any specific way. On the other hand a game like GMA's Tank Commander would be awesome with joystick and mouse support. So it all depends on the type of game being considered. Cheers! On 12/21/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well I don't know exactly how this would need to change in practical terms but there needs to be some serious canges. I won't mince words, and I am going to be blunt. I am not saying that any of this is easy in fact it may be darn hard but it needs to happen. 1. Visual basic 6 is a pile of crap, its shit and needs to die. Yes vb6 is good and simple but we all know that its support is unsertain and thats the big deal. I realise that 90% of all audiogames are still in vb6. Firstly we need to stop developing anything new in vb6. Next we need to convert over to something that is not vb6. that may mean python, vb dotnet or something. We need to start supporting 64 bit exclusively as this is probably going to be the future. We need to find either an 32 bit extender to run 16 bit programs like eamon in dos or find a way to run this stuff in a windows console or something same with dos games that can not be run by other means. 3. direct sound is als a pile of crap. Direct sound is good, but in later windows its broken and frankly its not even supported. So we need to move away from that. Using open al support or fsl is a good thing though there are some all direction echos that are part of the way it handles effects
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
In a message I just deleted from my inbox, you said that you still like XP because of the features for recording and you like the fact that you can still play the games that were written long ago. Now I see this one, and I have to ask, are you straddling the fence? Which should be used--XP or 7 and higher? --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2013 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question I agree with you draconis. You devs all of you should be looking at upgrading if you are not allready. I like old xp but I'd prefur to play games in 7 and 8. More games for xp? Well maybe that was when there was vista but seriously, I don't think people should keep making games in vb6 anymore or other stuff that can handle only the tech on xp. More games sure, but they need to be kept updated. At 04:50 AM 12/25/2013, you wrote: Hi Tom, Cara, and all, One funny thing about this conversation, and I don't mean ha ha funny, is that we see on this list on an ongoing basis, people struggling to find ways to play older games on newer machines with newer operating systems. We hear their frustrations, their hacks, and so on. In fact, this is one of the chief reasons Dark and others give for refusing to upgrade. And then these same folks who don't want to upgrade say that we should keep making games for XP, pointing out that many of our customers are still running it. They ignore the consequences that would negatively impact both themselves and the developers if that course of action was taken. They are exacerbating the problem, by demanding games be developed with obsolete technologies that they will, sooner or later, be complaining won't work properly when they are forced to get a new system. Developers would be adding to the number of games that need hacks and workarounds to run. They are putting an incredibly short lifespan on new titles created with these technologies, meaning that the developer's work is unlikely to be fully compensated. Pointing out that many users still run XP is a shortsighted view of the problem, and it is not how good business is done in any industry. In fact, it is that kind of shortsightedness that have put whole industries on the brink of disaster, like we saw with the record industry in the early 2000's. They wanted to hang on to the old model, but the world was moving forward with or without them. They had to adapt. The way I see it, expending lots of energy supporting XP at this point may indeed reap short-term benefits for the developer where regards sales, but it comes at the price of the long term health of their business. You can eat out at fast-food restaurants everyday. It might be delicious at the moment while you're doing it. But sooner or later, the health ramifications will catch up with you, and when they do, you will realize that that Big Mac really wasn't worth the ultimate cost. On Dec 24, 2013, at 12:39 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Cara, My thoughts exactly. I have heard lots of reasons why or why not to upgrade to Windows 7, Windows 8, switch to Mac OS,etc, but I haven't heard anything constructive from those people how this situation could be resolved. Particularly by the audio game developers who are caught in the middle of Microsoft's decision to move forward with technologies and their customer's decisions not to upgrade for one reason or another. It is not an easy decision to make, and not an easy one with a quick and simple answer. To give an example I think a lot of gamers are aware that DirectX, the primary Windows API for creating games, has undergone a major change over the last few years. DirectSound has been phased out in favor of XAudio2, DirectInput is slowly being replaced by XInput, DirectMusic and DirectPlay were dropped altogether, and so on. Clearly a game developer is being forced to make a choice to use older no longer supported components to support Windows XP and earlier, or they will have to bite the bullet and just use the new DirectX components for Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, and beyond. We are reaching a point where it is one way or the other, and its not as simple as support both which frankly speaking isn't that easy to do. So I, for one, would like to here the XP users' answers to these and other problems created by this situation. There are really only a small handful of options, and all have negative consequences. 1. Either all of the blind users realize XP and its components are no longer supported and upgrade. While this will certainly make it easier for developers to support their new operating system I am fully aware that for many this option is unpleasant because it will cost money
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Charles: First, I think we should make a distinction between commercial and non-commercial game developers here. Jim Kitchen is a non-commercial game developer and does not take any money for the games he creates. Therefore he is not obligated to any customers to continue supporting new operating systems, new APIs, or offer customer support in any way, shape, or form. His games are offered for free, as is, with no warranty or guarantees of compatibility. So he can pretty much do whatever he wants because he is giving the games away for free and has not taken any money for his software. As such should not be held to the same standard as someone who is selling his games. A commercial game developer like myself comes with a whole bunch of extra responsibilities that does not apply to a non-commercial developer. I believe one of those responsibilities is to make the software as stable and error free as possible, to support my products, and to insure that they work on the latest hardware and software available at the time of purchase. Sometimes in order to do that I have to choose to go with whatever happens to be the latest technology to best support the new operating system, and if it isn't compatible with an older operating system like XP that is just the way things are and no amount of arguing about it will change the facts of the matter which brings me to your other point. You said, Many people in the blind gaming community still use XP, yet you push us to switch to 7 or above. So much for the third point. Well, it is obvious to me you still don't understand the technical issues involved, and perhaps you just don't care to hear them. However, my third point was that a game developer does not have to sell 64-bit software and games exclusively because there are plenty of 32-bit computers running Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 out there. That is a totally different issue from supporting an older operating system like XP, because there is a huge difference in difficulty involved here. To support 32-bit and 64-bit all that is involved is simply recompiling the program and changing the target flags in the Visual Studio project file from x86 to x64, perhaps select the 64-bit libraries, and voila. A developer can make a brand new build in less than 10 minutes and support both 32-bit and 64-bit Windows versions with very little difficulty. Supporting XP and Windows 7 can in some cases be far more extensive requiring a major rewrite of the game or software depending on which APIs and libraries are used, and how dependent the game or software is on the newer libraries. Instead of a matter of minutes we are looking a job that could take hours perhaps a few days to make a special XP build if the software wasn't designed with XP specifically in mind. So in response to your comment no I have not invalided my point about upgrading to Windows 7 and above by stating that developers don't need to make 64-bit specific builds exclusively yet. I do think a game developer might be wise to make both a 32-bit and 64-bit version available, but it would be unwise to make only 64-bit Windows software right now given the ratio of 32-bit systems to 64-bit systems and it is not difficult to support both. Cheers! On 12/24/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Many people in the blind gaming community still use XP, yet you push us to switch tu 7 or above. So much for the third point. As to the second, should Jim Kitchen stop using what he is comfortable using to create games, cutting those with older systems out as far as being able to access his games? Should he learn a newer language in order to cater to the new while losing the old? I don't think so. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Charles: You can certainly play several text adventure games on Windows 8.1. If you have Winfrotz you can play pretty much every game written in Inform and ZCode that was ever written with your screen reader or Sapi speech output. If you have Agility for Windows you can play old text adventures written in AGT, and Tads32 will allow you to play various games written in Tads. So when it comes to text adventures you can pretty much play everything available for XP accept for those Dos games compiled for 16-bit systems such as Eamon Deluxe. As for Jim Kitchen's games I have gotten them to work on Windows 8.1 as well. I admit it takes a bit of fiddling to get them to work, but it can certainly be done. What I do is install the Winkit file to get the Visual Basic 6 runtime libraries installed, and then I install his games to a directory like c:\Users\Thomas\Kitchensinc where they will work without having issues with User Account Control. As long as you know how to set up the Kitchen's Inc. games you won't have a problem with them. I haven't tried Ten Pin Alley, but I have tried Lone Wolf 3.5 on Windows 8.1 and it works alright. Again, it just basically requires you install the proper libraries and make sure it is in a local directory rather than in c:\Program Files or c:\Program Files (x86). As to the issue of upgrading I have repeatedly gave reasons why I think people should upgrade. I'm not going to repeat it here as I'd just be wasting both my time and energy rewriting what I have said. All I will say in response is since those games can still be played your excuse not to upgrade is not valid based on compatibility alone. Cheers! On 12/24/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: I would not upgrade to get better voices than those I already have, which are good enough. Nobody in their right mind would use Microsoft Sam unless they absolutely had to, so that's a very poor comparison. I would not use Narrator unless I had to, either, but I would not upgrade from a platform with which I can access all of my previously purchased software to one with which I cannot, just for a better Narrator. Can I play text adventure games using Windows 8.1? How about Lone Wolf and Tenpin Alley? Jim Kitchen's games? If these cannot be played, why upgrade? I cannot see spending more money to get less access. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Yes. I would even compare them with the mac's speech. I converted a novel using Zira with Balabolka and enjoyed it thourghly. I do have a mac, and would love to have windows 8 in a vm, and would need vm player and all. I have also a windows 7 laptop, but isn't at all good for gaming, being a cheap laptop. sent from the braille plus Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Devin, Interesting enough you have hit upon one issue that should convince people to upgrade if nothing else. The Sapi voices for XP such as Microsoft Sam, Mary, and Mike were absolutely terrible. The newer Sapi 5.5 voices that come with Windows 8 are much better , and are certainly decent for games and other TTS enabled applications. If nothing else better Sapi voices should be one thing that would interest XP users in upgrading to Windows 8 or Windows 8.1. Cheers! On 12/24/13, Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com wrote: I totally agree with the devs on this one. I have a Windows 7 laptop, a mac desktop, an iPod touch, and soon, tomorrow in fact, a new android phone, running, unfortunately, android 4.0, the latest being 4.4. Anyway, I seriously don't see much need in sticking with XP anymore. Windows 7 is good, windows 8 is cool, so my goodness, why not leave Microsoft Sam and his depression behind? Sent from my iPod --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Well I don't know exactly how this would need to change in practical terms but there needs to be some serious canges. I won't mince words, and I am going to be blunt. I am not saying that any of this is easy in fact it may be darn hard but it needs to happen. 1. Visual basic 6 is a pile of crap, its shit and needs to die. Yes vb6 is good and simple but we all know that its support is unsertain and thats the big deal. I realise that 90% of all audiogames are still in vb6. Firstly we need to stop developing anything new in vb6. Next we need to convert over to something that is not vb6. that may mean python, vb dotnet or something. We need to start supporting 64 bit exclusively as this is probably going to be the future. We need to find either an 32 bit extender to run 16 bit programs like eamon in dos or find a way to run this stuff in a windows console or something same with dos games that can not be run by other means. 3. direct sound is als a pile of crap. Direct sound is good, but in later windows its broken and frankly its not even supported. So we need to move away from that. Using open al support or fsl is a good thing though there are some all direction echos that are part of the way it handles effects and it appears that its author can not fix those right now if ever. 3. game devices. Its probably not as important as the other 2 but more games need to start supporting mice, joysticks, etc as well as keyboard maybe even touch screens. We need things to support the latest tech if not gaming grade sertainly the basic tech. That was the keyboard, joystick and gamepad, now the mouse, touch tablet and stuff like that need to be added to that. In practice. I realise in the short term we are probably stuck with direct sound and probably vb6. It would be nice to get games that use more than the keyboard and or to get some that use the stick run a bit better but thats probably not going to happen, most use the keyboard. I know some devs are working hard to convert away from vb6 draconis is, and gma is rumored to be moving. L works I am not sure but it may vary well be doing so as well. Now I do realise some of this is not cheap and for a while may be almost impossible to do but thats what I feel are the main points. In the long run there is probably no answer. In theory as long as there are no major changes in what windows os configs do, we may catch up but who knows? Pure basic may be a replacement for vb6. I have run some games from it, there compiled versions have crashed with some memmory error on exit but they run ok and also run ok from source. You may or may not be able to alt tab away from them and there are questions over the stability of pure basic over 5.00 versions. Python is another language. nvda and its add on engine is python based and its almost crash proof, it still crashes but for a fully running screen reader for what it does it sertainly shows what a scripter like python can do. One thing that has not been really looked at as such is console apps which look and run like dos apps but are not dos apps as such stuff like the richard disteno games are donsole apps. Again This is my opinion. You asked and I gave it straight up. You don't like it, then delete it. At 10:07 AM 12/21/2013, you wrote: Hi Charles and all, So moving forward then, how do we address this situation for people so this song does not need to keep getting played over and over and over again? What steps might this community start taking now so that the situation can improve and continue to do so? Obviously this is not only a game-related topic or one only related to upgrades but since it has come up here, then what would be the first steps in people's opinions, to improve this? thanks, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:33 PM, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Money, money, money. Who's got the money? The majority of the visually impaired or blind population are unemployed, in a lot of cases, not through any fault of their own. Upgrade with what? Or, even if you are working, if you use products from Freedom Scientific because you think they are the best, most flexible, and most reliable, you've got those darned service maintenance agreements to deal with, and the hardware and software aren't cheap, either. They cost more than the computers they are used on. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question hi. personally, I think it's time that the blind gaming community did what
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Cara, My thoughts exactly. I have heard lots of reasons why or why not to upgrade to Windows 7, Windows 8, switch to Mac OS,etc, but I haven't heard anything constructive from those people how this situation could be resolved. Particularly by the audio game developers who are caught in the middle of Microsoft's decision to move forward with technologies and their customer's decisions not to upgrade for one reason or another. It is not an easy decision to make, and not an easy one with a quick and simple answer. To give an example I think a lot of gamers are aware that DirectX, the primary Windows API for creating games, has undergone a major change over the last few years. DirectSound has been phased out in favor of XAudio2, DirectInput is slowly being replaced by XInput, DirectMusic and DirectPlay were dropped altogether, and so on. Clearly a game developer is being forced to make a choice to use older no longer supported components to support Windows XP and earlier, or they will have to bite the bullet and just use the new DirectX components for Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, and beyond. We are reaching a point where it is one way or the other, and its not as simple as support both which frankly speaking isn't that easy to do. So I, for one, would like to here the XP users' answers to these and other problems created by this situation. There are really only a small handful of options, and all have negative consequences. 1. Either all of the blind users realize XP and its components are no longer supported and upgrade. While this will certainly make it easier for developers to support their new operating system I am fully aware that for many this option is unpleasant because it will cost money, they will lose the familiarity and ease of use of their current OS., and as Dark has pointed out may have little over all benefit for that person. 2. The developers can attempt to support both, but at added cost and extra time. Since two completely different APIs and platforms will need to be supported a developer is looking at nearly twice the time to upgrade, maintain, and release products at a loss to the developer. Therefore in order to insure backwards compatibility he or she will probably have to consider raising prices for the added inconvenience which I am certain nobody really wants. 3. The developers can choose what he or she thinks is best, and forget about compatibility with certain versions of Windows. Obviously this is a win/lose situation because whichever group is supported will buy the games and the excluded group won't. This will probably end up as a loss for the developer, and I don't need to remind people if developers do not have money for sounds, music, and perhaps a bit of his/her time they probably won't stick around unless they do it specifically as a hobby like some game developers do. 4. the last option is to design a game using open source libraries and APIs that are known to work on both equally well. While this works it has it sown pros and cons which may impact a certain project and not be a feasible option in every single case. So unless there is an API available that supports each and every platform equally, has everything a developer needs, they are truly stuck. Bottom line, I'd like to here the communities answers to these problems. I am growing tired of people saying they won't upgrade, but have no advice for me as a developer how I am expected to support them and my customers running new computers too. Cheers! On 12/20/13, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote: Hi Charles and all, So moving forward then, how do we address this situation for people so this song does not need to keep getting played over and over and over again? What steps might this community start taking now so that the situation can improve and continue to do so? Obviously this is not only a game-related topic or one only related to upgrades but since it has come up here, then what would be the first steps in people's opinions, to improve this? thanks, Cara :) --- --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Charles, If we were talking about financially speaking I would be in a much worse situation, but I think we know by now developing audio games is not and never has been about the money for me. I primarily write games for myself first and for the community second. So from that perspective writing games for a more modern operating system has its advantages for me personally because everything I write will be compatible with what I am using and is made according to the specifications I want or need at the time. It makes little sense to write something for an operating system that I will never use or support myself unless I am solely interested in the money which I am not. Besides I think your logic is a bit flawed. You said that a lot of gamers can not take advantage of more modern tools and operating systems. I believe it is more a case of won't than can't. I have seen my fair share of inexpensive computers under $300 with Windows 7 on them, and I know that many people on SSI should be able to save up and afford that if they wanted to. Many don't want to so won't upgrade rather than can't upgrade/. At least that is just my opinion. Cheers! On 12/19/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: If you can take advantage of more modern tools to develop games, but a lot of gamers cannot, where does that leave you? --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Dark, Well, I don't know what else I can say that hasn't already been said a hundred times over. Clearly we have reached a point in the discussion where nothing I say or do will sway you from your opinion, and nothing you say will remotely change my mind either. So we will simply have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. The problem seems to me is how you and I see things. You only look at this situation from the point of view of an end user who does not know or really care what technical issues are involved just as long as it works the way you want it too. I am a software engineer and know and care about the technical issues so am willing to accept that something can't be done or such an expectation is unrealistic given the circumstances. For example, you mentioned that XP supports old Dos games from twenty or more years ago. That is true but it is not just Windows XP that is required for this support. The 32-bit processors were designed to be backwards compatible with 16-bit software from twenty years or so ago. Now days the new processors from Intel and AMD will only support 32-bit and 64-bit applications meaning anything prior to the 32-bit era is defunked in terms of native applications. That does not mean, however, that you can not run Dos apps on Windows 8/. There is Dosbox which will run any 8-bit and 16-bit game or application in Windows 8. Microsoft does not need to add 16-bit support for older Dos apps because it already exists in a third-party application. The fact that Dosbox is not accessible is of no concern to Microsoft. It is only of concern to you and I because we are effected by the problem. If someone made an accessible Dos emulator I am certain your feelings would change because you could have your cake and eat it too in regards to backwards compatibility. Whatever the case it seems to me that our difference opinion has to do with our understanding of the technical issues involved. For you it is all about the benefits, the results, and please don't confuse you with the technical issues. For me I see things as a software engineer and while I obviously care about the benefits too I also understand why something can not be done or at least is not practical from a financial or technical point of view. I do not believe just because something can be done that is necessarily in Microsoft's best interests. Cheers! On 12/19/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. to be honest I don't agree with you about microsoft simply because of the money involved. on xp I can run programs for dos written in qbasic, C and goodness knows what from 20 years ago. That is a huge corpus of material. Up to xp microsoft had a care for all that legacy support which is why I can download copies of even something like the dos version of hunt the wumpus from 1978 and run it. You could write a program in basic and it'd be fine on xp today, just as was the original plan for Eamon deluxe. With post xp windows however microsoft are following a model of upgrade or else to both devs and users alike, and no, I don't accept the arguement that microsoft couldn't include this support indeed the fact that they've seen the light with respect to vb6 shows that they could and were just being money grubbing with their phase out, (you yourself admit the price for all the vb net stuff). With games, well it's not just the case of running or not running so much as capabilities. A developer like Jim kitchin who has worked in vb6 for years, well what bennifits are there to him to running vb net other than the extra harrassment caused by microsoft and the need to buy new vb net tools. Also, would Jim Kitchin's games be any better for using vb net or another programming language than using vb 6? I don't kow, not being a programmer but that is also a question which needs answering. Ultimately it comes down as I said to bennifits. Whichever way you cut the cookie upgrading is a hassle, and a hassle which microsoft have only made worse with their buggered up interface and lack of compatibility, a fact which I'm glad to see they are at least recognizing with their including of vb6 support (I've heard lots of stories of things not working on windows 8 so it's good that microsoft are finally seeing some sense at least). To your stand off question well to be honest as I said if microsoft had done a better job with windows 7 we wouldn't be having this conversation. Maybe windows 8, maybe windows 9, maybe a future version will be better. I'm confident enough myself that something better than xp will! come along in the future which will make myself and others change, but until then well if people keep using xp and developers keep writing for it, what is so wrong with that? it's like laser disks and dvds. Back in the mid 1990's, I knew someone who had bought a new laser disk system. He claimed the video and sound were better, and all the technical bits were there
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Dallas, I'm right with you there. A lot of companies, particular the mainstream, release a product, say here is the specs to run it, take it or leave it. Not a lot of accessible software developers are willing to be that harsh, but maybe they should. If more accessible developers took a more mainstream approach to marketing less blind users would be so complacent about upgrades as they would have to make the same sort of choices their sighted peers do about upgrades. The way I see it as long as developers continue to write stuff in Visual Basic 6, continue to support XP, the blind users see no benefit in upgrading. Plus by doing so the accessible software developers are holding the community back. What they need to do is take advantage of newer technology and make those benefits to upgrading appear so more people will feel like upgrading is a worthwhile investment. I believe once there is a real benefit to upgrading the community will follow the developers' lead. However, until developers give them an advantage in upgrading most blind gamers won't. Cheers! On 12/19/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi. personally, I think it's time that the blind gaming community did what most of the real gaming industry did a while back. bring out a game, and say here you go, here are the requirements. its up to you how you deal with that. if a game dev brings out a game that takes advantage of newer hardware / newer software, I'm afraid it's up to the gamer to update and keep with it. they have done that for a long time now. and you don't seem to hear the complaints as much from them about it. sorry, but I think it's time the blind community starts trying to keep up, in stead of holding ourselves back, and then blaming Microsoft or apple or who ever, for all the things they have done wrong. sure. there are things that Microsoft messed up in windows 8. they fixed some of those in windows 8.1, and will soon be fixing more in the next version of windows, either next year, or in 2015. they admit they have made some mistakes, and are going about fixing that. but I'm afraid to say, that as time go's on, it will be harder and harder to support ancient languages and software based on them. it's not because they don't want to, but simply because the cost involved in doing so, is huge. I mean, come on. people are complaining about windows costing what it does now! imagine what they would say, if Microsoft turned around and said, well, we are going to have to charge an extra 50, or 100 dollars per licence, just to keep up support for 10 or 15 year old software and languages. I don't think that would go over well. and not being funny, but one of apples good sides, is that they don't do this. they say, right, here is the new system. this is what it uses. get used to it, or don't use our product. LOL. harsh, but in some ways, they have the right idea. just like they did with 64 bit. in stead of messing around having both 64 and 32 running on the same operating system in effect, as windows does now, they basically switched to pure 64 bit, and said, well, this is what we will use now. all app developers, update your software. I personally think windows should go all out 64 bit, and stop messing around. 64 bit is faster, and lets you actually use all your ram, in stead of only part of it. ahaha. even in XP, if you had 4 GB, you could never use it all! you could only use about 2 GB at any one time. how annoying! and programs running as a proper 64 bit app, are amazingly fast and smooth to work with. course, the only reason they haven't gotten rid of 32 bit, is cause most of the dev's still produce in nothing but 32 bit app's! such as mozilla, for one! they refuse to bring out a 64 bit version of their firefox or thunderbird! which is stupid, considering the security advantages 64 bit gives you. dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
I agree dark. a simular discussion is going on the nvda list. I have 7 but a lot of the games that are for the blind are old. I have used xp for ages, and it still works. 7 is a good system as far as its better than vista. 8 though I don't know its ok but there are som many visual things now. And who needs all the extra cloud services anyway. So much is focused on touch. Yeah touch is good but the blind never needed to use it before and I see no reason why we should even do so. We don't need the extra stuff. back in the day dos with the blind persons os. Now its xp. and still is to a major extent xp. I have 7 which is the last so called desktop os, and well who knows. Linux is starting to look attractive except I have spent so much cash on windows apps I will need something to run windows like a vm in which case I may as well continue running windows. I have no doubt that there will be another system a system which is better than xp, better than 7 better than 8. I do think though that we need some interface for windows that is like the old os, desktop, internet explorer, start menus and the like. We never needed all the extras for ages and I recon we still don't. I hate to say this, but it may be time to retreat into devices designed for the blind and bugger the sighted. I never thought I'd do a reversal like this but its almost like the entire world of software is going against us. We fight back and continue but there is a point when I do wander what would have happened if I had never gone. At 05:58 AM 12/20/2013, you wrote: Hi Tom. to be honest I don't agree with you about microsoft simply because of the money involved. on xp I can run programs for dos written in qbasic, C and goodness knows what from 20 years ago. That is a huge corpus of material. Up to xp microsoft had a care for all that legacy support which is why I can download copies of even something like the dos version of hunt the wumpus from 1978 and run it. You could write a program in basic and it'd be fine on xp today, just as was the original plan for Eamon deluxe. With post xp windows however microsoft are following a model of upgrade or else to both devs and users alike, and no, I don't accept the arguement that microsoft couldn't include this support indeed the fact that they've seen the light with respect to vb6 shows that they could and were just being money grubbing with their phase out, (you yourself admit the price for all the vb net stuff). With games, well it's not just the case of running or not running so much as capabilities. A developer like Jim kitchin who has worked in vb6 for years, well what bennifits are there to him to running vb net other than the extra harrassment caused by microsoft and the need to buy new vb net tools. Also, would Jim Kitchin's games be any better for using vb net or another programming language than using vb 6? I don't kow, not being a programmer but that is also a question which needs answering. Ultimately it comes down as I said to bennifits. Whichever way you cut the cookie upgrading is a hassle, and a hassle which microsoft have only made worse with their buggered up interface and lack of compatibility, a fact which I'm glad to see they are at least recognizing with their including of vb6 support (I've heard lots of stories of things not working on windows 8 so it's good that microsoft are finally seeing some sense at least). To your stand off question well to be honest as I said if microsoft had done a better job with windows 7 we wouldn't be having this conversation. Maybe windows 8, maybe windows 9, maybe a future version will be better. I'm confident enough myself that something better than xp will! come along in the future which will make myself and others change, but until then well if people keep using xp and developers keep writing for it, what is so wrong with that? it's like laser disks and dvds. Back in the mid 1990's, I knew someone who had bought a new laser disk system. He claimed the video and sound were better, and all the technical bits were there and asked why I and other still used video. We said we used video becuase there were still more good films on video to watch than laserdisk, even though laserdisk was technically a better format. Of course 10 or so years later, and dvd replaced video, and myself and everyone else got to change our videos for dvds because there are now much better and cheaper films available on dvd than video, and most things that were originally video have been ported to dvd, and laserdisk has fallen by the way side, however had we migrated to laserdisk just because it was technically better we'd have not been any better off now. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi you need to do what you have to do, it's not your fault if people won't upgrade. We've been trying to convince people on our internet site to try to upgrade, if not for anything else, but for the security. Amanda -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, December 20, 2013 12:00 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Josh, I definitely agree with your points. As far as USA Games is concerned we aren't going out of our way to drop support for XP, but neither are we going to go out of our way to support it. At some point when we begin adopting newer Windows components and if it isn't XP compatible too bad. As I stated I am already running Windows 8.1 and as lead developer I can take advantage of various new components, modern hardware, and I see no need to cripple my software because x number of gamers won't upgrade. I may take a loss initially, but I am also looking at supporting Mac and perhaps Linux in time which will recoup the losses in sales to XP users. So I am not as concerned about XP support as I might be if I were only looking at the Windows market specifically. Cheers! On 12/19/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Tom, Your discussion of VB6 was one of the best explanations of the situation I’ve seen on this list. We’re in the process of rewriting old titles to use the new Engine. The old ESP Softworks titles were all VB6. This is going to be an arduous transition, but we’ll get there, and the games will be better than ever when we do. It is unlikely we will continue supporting XP, though. As you stated, we have a Mexican stand off, and we can take this opportunity to move forward since Mac sales are so robust and Windows sales are definitely weaker. Sales of our new Windows titles have not warranted the effort we put into supporting XP. For future titles, if we can support it with minimal effort, we will. When the effort required to maintain support for XP exceeds a certain threshold though, we just can’t justify it. If Windows sales pick up and a lot of users are still using XP down the road, we may revisit the topic. As for those who blame Microsoft for incompatibilities with VB6, it is common for people with these types of views of the world to want to vilify any company once it reaches a certain size for absolutely everything, whether based on facts or not. I have no love for big corporations, either, but I’m also not naive enough to think that every one of them is the equivalent of Lord Voldemort. Remember, Apple is doomed because they use DRM on the music they sell in iTunes. They aren’t, and they don’t, and in fact haven’t had DRM in just about seven years now, but those kinds of knee jerk reactions lead to everything being someone else’s fault. Apple didn’t even have a choice with the DRM situation. The record labels dictated that situation. It’s unfortunate, because for the most part, people who take these kinds of views are hurting themselves more than anyone else. At least until they start spewing misinformation across the Internet. Microsoft surely hasn’t done developers, or themselves for that matter, any favors with a lot of idiotic decisions they’ve made over the last 15 years or so, but not everything is their fault, either. As I have said so often, the world is comprised of shades of gray. It is rarely, if ever, black and white. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
I agree allex. There are people I know in enterprise companies that simply don't update or secure their systems as far as ms goes or with minimal security because of the fact that any update has potentual to stuff something and since time is cash they only update the most critical and even then there is a problem. I don't aggree with ms changing everything all the time though. My idea was to have some sort of interface program with older and newer interfaces but using more powerfull cores. So you could use an ie6 or win xp or even lower interface. You would loose some visual features and such that that inteface would not have, etc. I think that its time for the blind to have some sort of over all os shell we can use that does not matter what system at least in windows we have. I know there is classic shell but I want something more than that. I actually like the way linux does its uac, you have your account and an admin account. any real changes you need to login to that account to do the change. at the same time the only time you need to bother with this is is when you have to modify the system and since most programs are loaded for the home user well. I think a major benifit and major course with ms is that a lot of windows apps rely on a lot of system files. Thats ok because it means that you can really have smaller programs but its not ok because if something crashes or something well you are hosed with system stuff. Also needing all those system files well who knows. At 08:00 AM 12/20/2013, you wrote: Hi, Yes, I would definitely agree that Apple has always handled these transitions very well, much better than Microsoft. I think one reason for this is MS's large number of Enterprise customers. Enterprises tend to migrate to newer technologies extremely slowly, and I think this is holding MS back in many ways. There are several bugs in the Windows API that MS has left in because fixing them would break enterprise deployments of older software. I think Apple's relatively lower success in the enterprise is a good thing, as it allows them to evolve their products much more easily. On 12/19/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Alex, Just adding a bit to your comments. Apples aggressive strategy regarding software upgrades tends to keep their platforms more robust and stable, but comes at the cost of some backward compatibility. That said, though, Apple has also made it extremely easy for developers to keep their software current, regardless of platform. Indeed, migrating from PPC to Intel was a painless transition for the vast majority of developers. Far more trivial than trying to upgrade VB6 apps, even under the best of circumstances. Much has been written, in fact, on just how good Apple has gotten at these kinds of technological transitions, and they get smoother and smoother as the years go by. So far, the major transitions have been: OS Classic to OS X Carbon to Cocoa PPC to Intel 32 bit to 64 bit Intel 32 to 64 bit mobile Im hoping that Microsoft will learn from its mistakes and adopt some similar strategies going forward. On Dec 19, 2013, at 12:41 PM, Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com wrote: Dark, I'd just like to point out some misinformation in this post, and some misunderstandings about Mac and iOS. First, you said that iOS apps never have compatibility issues with iOS upgrades. This is definitely not the case. Several apps, including Solara (to bring this somewhat back to games) had some serious bugs running on IOS 7, and some apps were completely unusable until the developers released updates to fix compatibility. Second, if you're looking for an OS that places a high priority on backward compatibility, you're not going to get it from OS X. Apple is much more aggressive about discontinuing old API's and technologies and removing them than even Microsoft is. Allow me to illustrate this. In 2005, Apple switched from using the Power PC processor architecture to the Intel X86/X64 architecture used by Windows PC's. In order to provide backward-compatibility for PowerPC applications, Apple included a PpC emulator called Rosetta. The last PPC-compatible OS X version was 10.5, released in 2007. Version 10.6, released in 2009, was not compatible with PowerPC hardware, but stil supported Rosetta. However, the next version, released in 2011, removed Rosetta support. Let's say that, for example, BSC Games had written their software for Mac instead of Windows. If I'm not mistaken, Pipe 2 was last updated in February 2005, a few months before Apple announced the Intel transition. Within just six years, you would no longer be able to run the game on newer versions of the OS. You could just refuse to update to a newer OS, but once your machine broke, you'd have no choice but to hunt down parts on eBay or be forced to stop using any incompatible software. On 12/19/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Well tom I
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Well personally once ms gets it right I just hope they stay right. they got it right with xp. some what with 7 after that its if you like it then fine but if not well. At 08:50 AM 12/20/2013, you wrote: Well Dallas, your supposition doesnt hold up to much scrutiny, since Apple has, and does, major transitions on iOS all the time, and there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 to 700 million iOS devices in use. A much more key difference is that, with Apple products, the hardware and software are integrated in such a way as to vastly improve reliability and cut down on the infinity numbers of configurations and complexity we see in PCs. Makers of game consoles also use an integrated strategy, and we are seeing it adopted by more and more electronics companies, because it simply works, and provides users with a superior experience. Microsoft is slowly dabbling with integrated products, first with the restrictions on Windows Phone hardware and then by producing the Surface RT and Surface Pro. They have, of course, done this for quite some time with Xbox. So the sheer number of users really has little to do with it. Its simply that Apple has historically done this better. On Dec 19, 2013, at 2:38 PM, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi, it's not only that, but simply because apple's user base is actually nothing, when it comes to a number situation. they have all of about 50 to 70 million users on mac, not all of which are up to date, but more then not. then Microsoft, has over 1.5 billion! users in windows. they have more people to please then apple. apple can get away with jumping to something different in an instant, cause half the world doesn't rely on them. where as for Microsoft, 95 percent of the entire computing world rely's on them. lol. that's a lot of responsibility. Dallas On 20/12/2013, Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Yes, I would definitely agree that Apple has always handled these transitions very well, much better than Microsoft. I think one reason for this is MS's large number of Enterprise customers. Enterprises tend to migrate to newer technologies extremely slowly, and I think this is holding MS back in many ways. There are several bugs in the Windows API that MS has left in because fixing them would break enterprise deployments of older software. I think Apple's relatively lower success in the enterprise is a good thing, as it allows them to evolve their products much more easily. On 12/19/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Alex, Just adding a bit to your comments. Apples aggressive strategy regarding software upgrades tends to keep their platforms more robust and stable, but comes at the cost of some backward compatibility. That said, though, Apple has also made it extremely easy for developers to keep their software current, regardless of platform. Indeed, migrating from PPC to Intel was a painless transition for the vast majority of developers. Far more trivial than trying to upgrade VB6 apps, even under the best of circumstances. Much has been written, in fact, on just how good Apple has gotten at these kinds of technological transitions, and they get smoother and smoother as the years go by. So far, the major transitions have been: OS Classic to OS X Carbon to Cocoa PPC to Intel 32 bit to 64 bit Intel 32 to 64 bit mobile Im hoping that Microsoft will learn from its mistakes and adopt some similar strategies going forward. On Dec 19, 2013, at 12:41 PM, Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com wrote: Dark, I'd just like to point out some misinformation in this post, and some misunderstandings about Mac and iOS. First, you said that iOS apps never have compatibility issues with iOS upgrades. This is definitely not the case. Several apps, including Solara (to bring this somewhat back to games) had some serious bugs running on IOS 7, and some apps were completely unusable until the developers released updates to fix compatibility. Second, if you're looking for an OS that places a high priority on backward compatibility, you're not going to get it from OS X. Apple is much more aggressive about discontinuing old API's and technologies and removing them than even Microsoft is. Allow me to illustrate this. In 2005, Apple switched from using the Power PC processor architecture to the Intel X86/X64 architecture used by Windows PC's. In order to provide backward-compatibility for PowerPC applications, Apple included a PpC emulator called Rosetta. The last PPC-compatible OS X version was 10.5, released in 2007. Version 10.6, released in 2009, was not compatible with PowerPC hardware, but stil supported Rosetta. However, the next version, released in 2011, removed Rosetta support. Let's say that, for example, BSC Games had written their software for Mac instead of Windows. If I'm not mistaken, Pipe 2 was last updated in February 2005, a few
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Well I hope this does not come off to strong, but the reason I am still hanging on to xp is because some games, missippi, and the gma games gtc, lonewolf and sod really don't work that well witn 7. There is also the vb6 issue that will probably eventually come up. Now if the games we have that are done on old code could be updated if they are not being so allready then thats fine. If I know some of those old games will run on better oses, well. The other issue is I still have a lot of dos programs eamon mainly and want either a emulator like dosbox or a 32 bit dos extender that will run on top of windows as part of its command prompt I can use to run 16 bit games in 32 bit mode. I am also looking for accessable vertual machine software that won't slow down the system. on my i5 with 4gb ram, vmware player's vertual machines will slow down to almost nothing. vmware itself really makes my x64 bit system shudder, its in 32 bit mode mainly because I only use 32 bit software and guess what? everything else runs fine I can even run vocaliser express without it stuttering like my xp box does. I also like the win xp sound recorder for some of the sound stuff I do as a basic program. If I can satisfy all those needs, then I'll get my xp box which has a few issues and chuck it out the window, I'll even record it and upload the file to the web. But I doubt I'll ever get all I want so I am really not sure what I will do. My plan is to buy a micro server or a box with insane cpu, ram smart cards and hard drive space and load it up with vms and software that I can remotely boot off anywhere I am remotely and locally. That has its own challenges. However bar that the only other thing I will do is have an xp machine always which will probably mean having an extra system. It may mean running an old version of nvda to but I really have no solution. If there is any way for me to have my cake and eat it then please share. At 01:00 PM 12/20/2013, you wrote: Hi Josh, I definitely agree with your points. As far as USA Games is concerned we aren't going out of our way to drop support for XP, but neither are we going to go out of our way to support it. At some point when we begin adopting newer Windows components and if it isn't XP compatible too bad. As I stated I am already running Windows 8.1 and as lead developer I can take advantage of various new components, modern hardware, and I see no need to cripple my software because x number of gamers won't upgrade. I may take a loss initially, but I am also looking at supporting Mac and perhaps Linux in time which will recoup the losses in sales to XP users. So I am not as concerned about XP support as I might be if I were only looking at the Windows market specifically. Cheers! On 12/19/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Tom, Your discussion of VB6 was one of the best explanations of the situation I've seen on this list. We're in the process of rewriting old titles to use the new Engine. The old ESP Softworks titles were all VB6. This is going to be an arduous transition, but we'll get there, and the games will be better than ever when we do. It is unlikely we will continue supporting XP, though. As you stated, we have a Mexican stand off, and we can take this opportunity to move forward since Mac sales are so robust and Windows sales are definitely weaker. Sales of our new Windows titles have not warranted the effort we put into supporting XP. For future titles, if we can support it with minimal effort, we will. When the effort required to maintain support for XP exceeds a certain threshold though, we just can't justify it. If Windows sales pick up and a lot of users are still using XP down the road, we may revisit the topic. As for those who blame Microsoft for incompatibilities with VB6, it is common for people with these types of views of the world to want to vilify any company once it reaches a certain size for absolutely everything, whether based on facts or not. I have no love for big corporations, either, but I'm also not naive enough to think that every one of them is the equivalent of Lord Voldemort. Remember, Apple is doomed because they use DRM on the music they sell in iTunes. They aren't, and they don't, and in fact haven't had DRM in just about seven years now, but those kinds of knee jerk reactions lead to everything being someone else's fault. Apple didn't even have a choice with the DRM situation. The record labels dictated that situation. It's unfortunate, because for the most part, people who take these kinds of views are hurting themselves more than anyone else. At least until they start spewing misinformation across the Internet. Microsoft surely hasn't done developers, or themselves for that matter, any favors with a lot of idiotic decisions they've made over the last 15 years or so, but not everything is their fault, either. As I have said so often, the world is comprised of
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
True charles but most people do have at least a core2 and at least 2gb ram. Most people should have at least dotnet 3.5 if not 4.0 installed and anything over that is for touch devices and such anyway. At 05:32 PM 12/20/2013, you wrote: If you can take advantage of more modern tools to develop games, but a lot of gamers cannot, where does that leave you? --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Josh, I definitely agree with your points. As far as USA Games is concerned we aren't going out of our way to drop support for XP, but neither are we going to go out of our way to support it. At some point when we begin adopting newer Windows components and if it isn't XP compatible too bad. As I stated I am already running Windows 8.1 and as lead developer I can take advantage of various new components, modern hardware, and I see no need to cripple my software because x number of gamers won't upgrade. I may take a loss initially, but I am also looking at supporting Mac and perhaps Linux in time which will recoup the losses in sales to XP users. So I am not as concerned about XP support as I might be if I were only looking at the Windows market specifically. Cheers! On 12/19/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Tom, Your discussion of VB6 was one of the best explanations of the situation I've seen on this list. We're in the process of rewriting old titles to use the new Engine. The old ESP Softworks titles were all VB6. This is going to be an arduous transition, but we'll get there, and the games will be better than ever when we do. It is unlikely we will continue supporting XP, though. As you stated, we have a Mexican stand off, and we can take this opportunity to move forward since Mac sales are so robust and Windows sales are definitely weaker. Sales of our new Windows titles have not warranted the effort we put into supporting XP. For future titles, if we can support it with minimal effort, we will. When the effort required to maintain support for XP exceeds a certain threshold though, we just can't justify it. If Windows sales pick up and a lot of users are still using XP down the road, we may revisit the topic. As for those who blame Microsoft for incompatibilities with VB6, it is common for people with these types of views of the world to want to vilify any company once it reaches a certain size for absolutely everything, whether based on facts or not. I have no love for big corporations, either, but I'm also not naive enough to think that every one of them is the equivalent of Lord Voldemort. Remember, Apple is doomed because they use DRM on the music they sell in iTunes. They aren't, and they don't, and in fact haven't had DRM in just about seven years now, but those kinds of knee jerk reactions lead to everything being someone else's fault. Apple didn't even have a choice with the DRM situation. The record labels dictated that situation. It's unfortunate, because for the most part, people who take these kinds of views are hurting themselves more than anyone else. At least until they start spewing misinformation across the Internet. Microsoft surely hasn't done developers, or themselves for that matter, any favors with a lot of idiotic decisions they've made over the last 15 years or so, but not everything is their fault, either. As I have said so often, the world is comprised of shades of gray. It is rarely, if ever, black and white. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Money, money, money. Who's got the money? The majority of the visually impaired or blind population are unemployed, in a lot of cases, not through any fault of their own. Upgrade with what? Or, even if you are working, if you use products from Freedom Scientific because you think they are the best, most flexible, and most reliable, you've got those darned service maintenance agreements to deal with, and the hardware and software aren't cheap, either. They cost more than the computers they are used on. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question hi. personally, I think it's time that the blind gaming community did what most of the real gaming industry did a while back. bring out a game, and say here you go, here are the requirements. its up to you how you deal with that. if a game dev brings out a game that takes advantage of newer hardware / newer software, I'm afraid it's up to the gamer to update and keep with it. they have done that for a long time now. and you don't seem to hear the complaints as much from them about it. sorry, but I think it's time the blind community starts trying to keep up, in stead of holding ourselves back, and then blaming Microsoft or apple or who ever, for all the things they have done wrong. sure. there are things that Microsoft messed up in windows 8. they fixed some of those in windows 8.1, and will soon be fixing more in the next version of windows, either next year, or in 2015. they admit they have made some mistakes, and are going about fixing that. but I'm afraid to say, that as time go's on, it will be harder and harder to support ancient languages and software based on them. it's not because they don't want to, but simply because the cost involved in doing so, is huge. I mean, come on. people are complaining about windows costing what it does now! imagine what they would say, if Microsoft turned around and said, well, we are going to have to charge an extra 50, or 100 dollars per licence, just to keep up support for 10 or 15 year old software and languages. I don't think that would go over well. and not being funny, but one of apples good sides, is that they don't do this. they say, right, here is the new system. this is what it uses. get used to it, or don't use our product. LOL. harsh, but in some ways, they have the right idea. just like they did with 64 bit. in stead of messing around having both 64 and 32 running on the same operating system in effect, as windows does now, they basically switched to pure 64 bit, and said, well, this is what we will use now. all app developers, update your software. I personally think windows should go all out 64 bit, and stop messing around. 64 bit is faster, and lets you actually use all your ram, in stead of only part of it. ahaha. even in XP, if you had 4 GB, you could never use it all! you could only use about 2 GB at any one time. how annoying! and programs running as a proper 64 bit app, are amazingly fast and smooth to work with. course, the only reason they haven't gotten rid of 32 bit, is cause most of the dev's still produce in nothing but 32 bit app's! such as mozilla, for one! they refuse to bring out a 64 bit version of their firefox or thunderbird! which is stupid, considering the security advantages 64 bit gives you. dallas On 20/12/2013, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Sigh...You are probably right about the fact that we have said all that can be said on this subject. I feel like I'm in a boxing match where neither person has made any impact on the other and all we are doing is going round after round not getting anywhere. However, before I close this topic I feel the need to make a correction. Visual Basic 6 apps and games still work on Windows 8. You have to take some extra steps to make them work correctly, but it certainly can be done. In fact, Microsoft released a patch for Windows 8 not too long ago that extends support for older Visual Basic 6 apps and games for the lifetime of Windows 8. So what you said about Microsoft mucking up compatibility with Visual Basic 6 is not true. They have in fact tried to maintain compatibility as long as necessary while getting programmers to adopt .NET instead. Even if it were true can you possibly try and see it from their point of view for once instead of looking at this from a biased position. Visual Basic 6 was released in 1998. That was 15 years ago for a totally different operating system and generation of computers than we are dealing with today. There were several third-party ActiveX components for 16-bit and 32-bit Windows that are no longer supported by their respective companies causing major problems with VB 6
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Shaun, Honestly, I think you are seriously over reacting to upgrading. I know some people hate change, but going to special devices made specifically for the blind most certainly is not the answer to the problem. They are often over priced, way too expensive, and proprietary to the point they are hard to service and get software for. To give you an example I can go to my local Walmart right now and buy an Apple iPad for $499 complete with a screen reader and a number of accessible apps. There are potentially hundreds of games and other apps I can buy from the Apple store for it which makes my $499 up front investment worthwhile. If I look at similar devices made for the blind I am looking at better than $2,000 for a basic notetaker which doesn't have the power of the iPad nor the selection of applications. I could do that, of course, but why would I buy a specialized notetaker for three or four times the cost with less features and abilities? The thing is that while you and others may not like the changes going on in the technology world I also don't think you really have much of a choice but to roll with the change. Access is improving on Mac OS X making it an alternative to Windows. Orca is constantly improving on Linux making Linux an alternative to Windows. The new Narrator for Windows 8.1 is fair as a screen reader. NVDA is better, but in many ways accessibility for Windows has gotten better not worse. Bottom line, retreating into specialized devices is not necessary, because we are on the verge of having a real choice when it comes to computers and software for the first time in history. We need to be going forward not backward because cost of adaptive technology is dropping and I see no reason to retreat back into the world of expensive high priced specialty products. Cheers! On 12/19/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: I agree dark. a simular discussion is going on the nvda list. I have 7 but a lot of the games that are for the blind are old. I have used xp for ages, and it still works. 7 is a good system as far as its better than vista. 8 though I don't know its ok but there are som many visual things now. And who needs all the extra cloud services anyway. So much is focused on touch. Yeah touch is good but the blind never needed to use it before and I see no reason why we should even do so. We don't need the extra stuff. back in the day dos with the blind persons os. Now its xp. and still is to a major extent xp. I have 7 which is the last so called desktop os, and well who knows. Linux is starting to look attractive except I have spent so much cash on windows apps I will need something to run windows like a vm in which case I may as well continue running windows. I have no doubt that there will be another system a system which is better than xp, better than 7 better than 8. I do think though that we need some interface for windows that is like the old os, desktop, internet explorer, start menus and the like. We never needed all the extras for ages and I recon we still don't. I hate to say this, but it may be time to retreat into devices designed for the blind and bugger the sighted. I never thought I'd do a reversal like this but its almost like the entire world of software is going against us. We fight back and continue but there is a point when I do wander what would have happened if I had never gone. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Charles, Oh, I won't deny the fact that most blind people are unemployed and are dependant on disability income like SSI and SSDI, nor can I ignore the fact that the cost of living in the U.S. is pretty high right now. That said, though, there are certainly ways to perform upgrades and get new hardware if a person makes it a priority. A lot of it just comes down to managing their money better. I am certainly not saying that a blind user has to walk into Best Buy, Walmart, or another store and just throw down $450 for a new laptop just like that. It obviously takes some planning, and a blind person could, if they wanted to, budget the cost of a new computer into their monthly budget. They could create a savings account where they put $25 here and there into it until they have the money needed for that new computer. Maybe the will have to make a few small conscious decisions like not buying a pizza on Friday night, maybe forego that new jacket they want, not eat out as much, but instead could choose to save that money for a new computer or newer software. In my experience people, and I am talking in general here, aren't good at budgeting their money. They often make gratuities choices like stopping to eat at a fast food restaurant because they don't feel like cooking a meal at home, they find something that the store they like and buy it without caring if that money might be spent elsewhere, or are just bad at wasting money on non-essential stuff. Either way, when people are on a fixed income like SSI they really need to budget everything, even something as gratuitous as eating at McDonald's, to make the most of their money. So making a choice to buy a new computer or a Windows upgrade could be factored into how the money is to be spent if they make it a priority. To give you an example before I got married and my soon to be ex performed a lot of reckless spending I had a savings account I would pay money into each month just like paying a bill. Sometimes I would pay more sometimes less but after about a year I had $1,000 or so built up in that account I could use for anything I wanted. I could go into Walmart and throw down $450 for a new computer, and still have plenty of money in savings left over. Since I paid money into that account just like a bill anything I borrowed for a Windows upgrade, a new computer, etc would soon get paid back into that account for the next time I wanted or needed to make an expensive purchase. All it took was working that into my monthly budget, and we weren't talking about big sums of money to do it. These days Windows upgrades are becoming quite inexpensive. When I upgraded my Toshiba from Windows 7 to Windows 8 I think I paid like $45 for the upgrade. The Windows 8.1 upgrade was free for Windows 8 users so all in all I got two Windows upgrades for less than $50. Granted I had a new enough computer to take advantage of those savings, but the fact remains even someone on SSI should be able to come up with that amount of money for a Windows upgrade. So I think your argument that blind people don't have the money won't wash. Yes, they are poor, yes they are on fixed incomes, and yes things may get tight now and then I think they probably could save a little money each month if they wanted to, but I don't think they see a need or have any particular desire to do it. That's why I say it is more a matter of won't than can't. They have not made a conscious decision to put some money back for new hardware and software, and then use their lack of money as an excuse not to upgrade. Cheers! On 12/19/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Money, money, money. Who's got the money? The majority of the visually impaired or blind population are unemployed, in a lot of cases, not through any fault of their own. Upgrade with what? Or, even if you are working, if you use products from Freedom Scientific because you think they are the best, most flexible, and most reliable, you've got those darned service maintenance agreements to deal with, and the hardware and software aren't cheap, either. They cost more than the computers they are used on. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Shaun, Well, not true. While I suspect most people have at least .NET 4.0 installed that has absolutely nothing to do with touchscreen devices. Microsoft .NET is a programming API designed for rapid development and deployment of applications cross Windows platforms and has nothing to do with touchscreen devices specifically. Neither does having more ram and CPU power. I'm not sure why you would think that. Cheers! On 12/20/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: True charles but most people do have at least a core2 and at least 2gb ram. Most people should have at least dotnet 3.5 if not 4.0 installed and anything over that is for touch devices and such anyway. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
That's actually on my list of things to try and save up for. Granted there's been no indication that my current laptop, wich I've had for four years, is about to go. But o course you never know with computers. Chances are tat if/when I get a new laptop it'll ahve a newer OS like WOndows 7 or 9 so I figure I'll have to get used to it. I'd have upgraded before now seeing as I'm not fond of Vista but finances have't exactly permitted that, especially not this year. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! -Original Message- From: Thomas Ward Sent: Friday, December 20, 2013 4:35 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Charles, Oh, I won't deny the fact that most blind people are unemployed and are dependant on disability income like SSI and SSDI, nor can I ignore the fact that the cost of living in the U.S. is pretty high right now. That said, though, there are certainly ways to perform upgrades and get new hardware if a person makes it a priority. A lot of it just comes down to managing their money better. I am certainly not saying that a blind user has to walk into Best Buy, Walmart, or another store and just throw down $450 for a new laptop just like that. It obviously takes some planning, and a blind person could, if they wanted to, budget the cost of a new computer into their monthly budget. They could create a savings account where they put $25 here and there into it until they have the money needed for that new computer. Maybe the will have to make a few small conscious decisions like not buying a pizza on Friday night, maybe forego that new jacket they want, not eat out as much, but instead could choose to save that money for a new computer or newer software. In my experience people, and I am talking in general here, aren't good at budgeting their money. They often make gratuities choices like stopping to eat at a fast food restaurant because they don't feel like cooking a meal at home, they find something that the store they like and buy it without caring if that money might be spent elsewhere, or are just bad at wasting money on non-essential stuff. Either way, when people are on a fixed income like SSI they really need to budget everything, even something as gratuitous as eating at McDonald's, to make the most of their money. So making a choice to buy a new computer or a Windows upgrade could be factored into how the money is to be spent if they make it a priority. To give you an example before I got married and my soon to be ex performed a lot of reckless spending I had a savings account I would pay money into each month just like paying a bill. Sometimes I would pay more sometimes less but after about a year I had $1,000 or so built up in that account I could use for anything I wanted. I could go into Walmart and throw down $450 for a new computer, and still have plenty of money in savings left over. Since I paid money into that account just like a bill anything I borrowed for a Windows upgrade, a new computer, etc would soon get paid back into that account for the next time I wanted or needed to make an expensive purchase. All it took was working that into my monthly budget, and we weren't talking about big sums of money to do it. These days Windows upgrades are becoming quite inexpensive. When I upgraded my Toshiba from Windows 7 to Windows 8 I think I paid like $45 for the upgrade. The Windows 8.1 upgrade was free for Windows 8 users so all in all I got two Windows upgrades for less than $50. Granted I had a new enough computer to take advantage of those savings, but the fact remains even someone on SSI should be able to come up with that amount of money for a Windows upgrade. So I think your argument that blind people don't have the money won't wash. Yes, they are poor, yes they are on fixed incomes, and yes things may get tight now and then I think they probably could save a little money each month if they wanted to, but I don't think they see a need or have any particular desire to do it. That's why I say it is more a matter of won't than can't. They have not made a conscious decision to put some money back for new hardware and software, and then use their lack of money as an excuse not to upgrade. Cheers! On 12/19/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Money, money, money. Who's got the money? The majority of the visually impaired or blind population are unemployed, in a lot of cases, not through any fault of their own. Upgrade with what? Or, even if you are working, if you use products from Freedom Scientific because you think they are the best, most flexible, and most reliable, you've got those darned service maintenance agreements to deal with, and the hardware and software aren't cheap, either. They cost more than the computers they are used on. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Shaun, Regarding virtual machines for playing older games etc unfortunately performance will always be something of an issue. You need a lot of ram and CPU power to run a guest operating system in memory and get something like native performance. As a rule of thumb the more ram and CPU power you have to throw at it the better it will run, but it still isn't quite as good as running it on a system natively. However, I personally do not see a better alternative at this point. Both Mac and Linux have Windows emulators, but those are frankly a pain in the butt to get working properly. I've tried playing games like Shades of Doom under Wine on Linux and the game constantly crashes. Others like Jim Kitchen's games work fine on Linux used with Wine. However, emulating software is hit and miss, and is not a perfect solution in any case. To be perfectly honest if someone like yourself is that concerned about hanging onto your older games and applications the best choice is to hold onto your older computer, keep XP on it, and just use it for that expressed purpose. For everything else you can use your new Windows computer for the Internet, e-mail, newer games, etc. That is the only way to have your cake and eat it too. cheers! On 12/19/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well I hope this does not come off to strong, but the reason I am still hanging on to xp is because some games, missippi, and the gma games gtc, lonewolf and sod really don't work that well witn 7. There is also the vb6 issue that will probably eventually come up. Now if the games we have that are done on old code could be updated if they are not being so allready then thats fine. If I know some of those old games will run on better oses, well. The other issue is I still have a lot of dos programs eamon mainly and want either a emulator like dosbox or a 32 bit dos extender that will run on top of windows as part of its command prompt I can use to run 16 bit games in 32 bit mode. I am also looking for accessable vertual machine software that won't slow down the system. on my i5 with 4gb ram, vmware player's vertual machines will slow down to almost nothing. vmware itself really makes my x64 bit system shudder, its in 32 bit mode mainly because I only use 32 bit software and guess what? everything else runs fine I can even run vocaliser express without it stuttering like my xp box does. I also like the win xp sound recorder for some of the sound stuff I do as a basic program. If I can satisfy all those needs, then I'll get my xp box which has a few issues and chuck it out the window, I'll even record it and upload the file to the web. But I doubt I'll ever get all I want so I am really not sure what I will do. My plan is to buy a micro server or a box with insane cpu, ram smart cards and hard drive space and load it up with vms and software that I can remotely boot off anywhere I am remotely and locally. That has its own challenges. However bar that the only other thing I will do is have an xp machine always which will probably mean having an extra system. It may mean running an old version of nvda to but I really have no solution. If there is any way for me to have my cake and eat it then please share. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Shaun, You want to know what I find amusing about that comment? I think a lot of people in this community have completely forgotten the uproar caused by Microsoft releasing Windows XP. I remember people on the Jaws list and elsewhere swearing up and down they would never upgrade to XP, that XP is trash, that they will use Windows 98 until it dies. Now, some 12 years later exactly the opposite is true. People say things like they got it right with XP but if you were to go back in time and tell everyone that they would not believe you. The moral of the story is that it takes a very long time for the blind community to accept and adopt change. By the time they do they are already behind the mainstream, and will start kicking, screaming, and wining about how bad the changes are. A few years later it is all forgotten about until the next time the evil empire releases a new operating system that forces them to change. Cheers! On 12/19/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well personally once ms gets it right I just hope they stay right. they got it right with xp. some what with 7 after that its if you like it then fine but if not well. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
hi. yeah, i agree. lol. it's amusigin to watch how most of the blind commnunity works. even though i myself am blind, i sort of feel like i'm on the outside, looking in. ahaha. also, about the money / saving up thing. not being funny here guys, but lets just put it this way. i am on australias blind pension. i pay for my internet, phone, mobile phone, electricity, and help pay for the cost of our car. pluss food of course. and any other little things that come up. and heres the thing. this year, i have purchasesd, a new iPad mini with retina display, 128 gb cell version. windows 8 toshiba laptop. several games, and heres the topper, i purchased tickets to fly over to england again next year! so yes, saving up can be done. and it really doesn't take that much. just use your money wisely, and you will be fine. lol. Dallas On 20/12/2013, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Shaun, You want to know what I find amusing about that comment? I think a lot of people in this community have completely forgotten the uproar caused by Microsoft releasing Windows XP. I remember people on the Jaws list and elsewhere swearing up and down they would never upgrade to XP, that XP is trash, that they will use Windows 98 until it dies. Now, some 12 years later exactly the opposite is true. People say things like they got it right with XP but if you were to go back in time and tell everyone that they would not believe you. The moral of the story is that it takes a very long time for the blind community to accept and adopt change. By the time they do they are already behind the mainstream, and will start kicking, screaming, and wining about how bad the changes are. A few years later it is all forgotten about until the next time the evil empire releases a new operating system that forces them to change. Cheers! On 12/19/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well personally once ms gets it right I just hope they stay right. they got it right with xp. some what with 7 after that its if you like it then fine but if not well. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
and if I really need a new computer my bank said although I am on social security I can go take out a personal loan for $5000, pay them back $4600 of the $5000 buy a new computer then just slowly pay off the rest of the loan. using windows7 laptop On 12/20/2013 3:30 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Charles, If we were talking about financially speaking I would be in a much worse situation, but I think we know by now developing audio games is not and never has been about the money for me. I primarily write games for myself first and for the community second. So from that perspective writing games for a more modern operating system has its advantages for me personally because everything I write will be compatible with what I am using and is made according to the specifications I want or need at the time. It makes little sense to write something for an operating system that I will never use or support myself unless I am solely interested in the money which I am not. Besides I think your logic is a bit flawed. You said that a lot of gamers can not take advantage of more modern tools and operating systems. I believe it is more a case of won't than can't. I have seen my fair share of inexpensive computers under $300 with Windows 7 on them, and I know that many people on SSI should be able to save up and afford that if they wanted to. Many don't want to so won't upgrade rather than can't upgrade/. At least that is just my opinion. Cheers! On 12/19/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: If you can take advantage of more modern tools to develop games, but a lot of gamers cannot, where does that leave you? --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
its easy an inexpensive to upgrade. computersfortheblind.net and newegg.com and blaire technology group all sell good refurbished machines with windows7. and eventually will have them with windows8. if you really want windows8 just go get one from walmart or amazon maybe. using windows7 laptop On 12/20/2013 4:22 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Dallas, I'm right with you there. A lot of companies, particular the mainstream, release a product, say here is the specs to run it, take it or leave it. Not a lot of accessible software developers are willing to be that harsh, but maybe they should. If more accessible developers took a more mainstream approach to marketing less blind users would be so complacent about upgrades as they would have to make the same sort of choices their sighted peers do about upgrades. The way I see it as long as developers continue to write stuff in Visual Basic 6, continue to support XP, the blind users see no benefit in upgrading. Plus by doing so the accessible software developers are holding the community back. What they need to do is take advantage of newer technology and make those benefits to upgrading appear so more people will feel like upgrading is a worthwhile investment. I believe once there is a real benefit to upgrading the community will follow the developers' lead. However, until developers give them an advantage in upgrading most blind gamers won't. Cheers! On 12/19/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi. personally, I think it's time that the blind gaming community did what most of the real gaming industry did a while back. bring out a game, and say here you go, here are the requirements. its up to you how you deal with that. if a game dev brings out a game that takes advantage of newer hardware / newer software, I'm afraid it's up to the gamer to update and keep with it. they have done that for a long time now. and you don't seem to hear the complaints as much from them about it. sorry, but I think it's time the blind community starts trying to keep up, in stead of holding ourselves back, and then blaming Microsoft or apple or who ever, for all the things they have done wrong. sure. there are things that Microsoft messed up in windows 8. they fixed some of those in windows 8.1, and will soon be fixing more in the next version of windows, either next year, or in 2015. they admit they have made some mistakes, and are going about fixing that. but I'm afraid to say, that as time go's on, it will be harder and harder to support ancient languages and software based on them. it's not because they don't want to, but simply because the cost involved in doing so, is huge. I mean, come on. people are complaining about windows costing what it does now! imagine what they would say, if Microsoft turned around and said, well, we are going to have to charge an extra 50, or 100 dollars per licence, just to keep up support for 10 or 15 year old software and languages. I don't think that would go over well. and not being funny, but one of apples good sides, is that they don't do this. they say, right, here is the new system. this is what it uses. get used to it, or don't use our product. LOL. harsh, but in some ways, they have the right idea. just like they did with 64 bit. in stead of messing around having both 64 and 32 running on the same operating system in effect, as windows does now, they basically switched to pure 64 bit, and said, well, this is what we will use now. all app developers, update your software. I personally think windows should go all out 64 bit, and stop messing around. 64 bit is faster, and lets you actually use all your ram, in stead of only part of it. ahaha. even in XP, if you had 4 GB, you could never use it all! you could only use about 2 GB at any one time. how annoying! and programs running as a proper 64 bit app, are amazingly fast and smooth to work with. course, the only reason they haven't gotten rid of 32 bit, is cause most of the dev's still produce in nothing but 32 bit app's! such as mozilla, for one! they refuse to bring out a 64 bit version of their firefox or thunderbird! which is stupid, considering the security advantages 64 bit gives you. dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
or get a bank account, take out a loan pay back what you don't need right away buy the new machine then pay back the rest of the loan. using windows7 laptop On 12/20/2013 6:35 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Charles, Oh, I won't deny the fact that most blind people are unemployed and are dependant on disability income like SSI and SSDI, nor can I ignore the fact that the cost of living in the U.S. is pretty high right now. That said, though, there are certainly ways to perform upgrades and get new hardware if a person makes it a priority. A lot of it just comes down to managing their money better. I am certainly not saying that a blind user has to walk into Best Buy, Walmart, or another store and just throw down $450 for a new laptop just like that. It obviously takes some planning, and a blind person could, if they wanted to, budget the cost of a new computer into their monthly budget. They could create a savings account where they put $25 here and there into it until they have the money needed for that new computer. Maybe the will have to make a few small conscious decisions like not buying a pizza on Friday night, maybe forego that new jacket they want, not eat out as much, but instead could choose to save that money for a new computer or newer software. In my experience people, and I am talking in general here, aren't good at budgeting their money. They often make gratuities choices like stopping to eat at a fast food restaurant because they don't feel like cooking a meal at home, they find something that the store they like and buy it without caring if that money might be spent elsewhere, or are just bad at wasting money on non-essential stuff. Either way, when people are on a fixed income like SSI they really need to budget everything, even something as gratuitous as eating at McDonald's, to make the most of their money. So making a choice to buy a new computer or a Windows upgrade could be factored into how the money is to be spent if they make it a priority. To give you an example before I got married and my soon to be ex performed a lot of reckless spending I had a savings account I would pay money into each month just like paying a bill. Sometimes I would pay more sometimes less but after about a year I had $1,000 or so built up in that account I could use for anything I wanted. I could go into Walmart and throw down $450 for a new computer, and still have plenty of money in savings left over. Since I paid money into that account just like a bill anything I borrowed for a Windows upgrade, a new computer, etc would soon get paid back into that account for the next time I wanted or needed to make an expensive purchase. All it took was working that into my monthly budget, and we weren't talking about big sums of money to do it. These days Windows upgrades are becoming quite inexpensive. When I upgraded my Toshiba from Windows 7 to Windows 8 I think I paid like $45 for the upgrade. The Windows 8.1 upgrade was free for Windows 8 users so all in all I got two Windows upgrades for less than $50. Granted I had a new enough computer to take advantage of those savings, but the fact remains even someone on SSI should be able to come up with that amount of money for a Windows upgrade. So I think your argument that blind people don't have the money won't wash. Yes, they are poor, yes they are on fixed incomes, and yes things may get tight now and then I think they probably could save a little money each month if they wanted to, but I don't think they see a need or have any particular desire to do it. That's why I say it is more a matter of won't than can't. They have not made a conscious decision to put some money back for new hardware and software, and then use their lack of money as an excuse not to upgrade. Cheers! On 12/19/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Money, money, money. Who's got the money? The majority of the visually impaired or blind population are unemployed, in a lot of cases, not through any fault of their own. Upgrade with what? Or, even if you are working, if you use products from Freedom Scientific because you think they are the best, most flexible, and most reliable, you've got those darned service maintenance agreements to deal with, and the hardware and software aren't cheap, either. They cost more than the computers they are used on. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Charles and all, So moving forward then, how do we address this situation for people so this song does not need to keep getting played over and over and over again? What steps might this community start taking now so that the situation can improve and continue to do so? Obviously this is not only a game-related topic or one only related to upgrades but since it has come up here, then what would be the first steps in people's opinions, to improve this? thanks, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:33 PM, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Money, money, money. Who's got the money? The majority of the visually impaired or blind population are unemployed, in a lot of cases, not through any fault of their own. Upgrade with what? Or, even if you are working, if you use products from Freedom Scientific because you think they are the best, most flexible, and most reliable, you've got those darned service maintenance agreements to deal with, and the hardware and software aren't cheap, either. They cost more than the computers they are used on. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question hi. personally, I think it's time that the blind gaming community did what most of the real gaming industry did a while back. bring out a game, and say here you go, here are the requirements. its up to you how you deal with that. if a game dev brings out a game that takes advantage of newer hardware / newer software, I'm afraid it's up to the gamer to update and keep with it. they have done that for a long time now. and you don't seem to hear the complaints as much from them about it. sorry, but I think it's time the blind community starts trying to keep up, in stead of holding ourselves back, and then blaming Microsoft or apple or who ever, for all the things they have done wrong. sure. there are things that Microsoft messed up in windows 8. they fixed some of those in windows 8.1, and will soon be fixing more in the next version of windows, either next year, or in 2015. they admit they have made some mistakes, and are going about fixing that. but I'm afraid to say, that as time go's on, it will be harder and harder to support ancient languages and software based on them. it's not because they don't want to, but simply because the cost involved in doing so, is huge. I mean, come on. people are complaining about windows costing what it does now! imagine what they would say, if Microsoft turned around and said, well, we are going to have to charge an extra 50, or 100 dollars per licence, just to keep up support for 10 or 15 year old software and languages. I don't think that would go over well. and not being funny, but one of apples good sides, is that they don't do this. they say, right, here is the new system. this is what it uses. get used to it, or don't use our product. LOL. harsh, but in some ways, they have the right idea. just like they did with 64 bit. in stead of messing around having both 64 and 32 running on the same operating system in effect, as windows does now, they basically switched to pure 64 bit, and said, well, this is what we will use now. all app developers, update your software. I personally think windows should go all out 64 bit, and stop messing around. 64 bit is faster, and lets you actually use all your ram, in stead of only part of it. ahaha. even in XP, if you had 4 GB, you could never use it all! you could only use about 2 GB at any one time. how annoying! and programs running as a proper 64 bit app, are amazingly fast and smooth to work with. course, the only reason they haven't gotten rid of 32 bit, is cause most of the dev's still produce in nothing but 32 bit app's! such as mozilla, for one! they refuse to bring out a 64 bit version of their firefox or thunderbird! which is stupid, considering the security advantages 64 bit gives you. dallas On 20/12/2013, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Sigh...You are probably right about the fact that we have said all that can be said on this subject. I feel like I'm in a boxing match where neither person has made any impact on the other and all we are doing is going round after round not getting anywhere. However, before I close this topic I feel the need to make a correction. Visual Basic 6 apps and games still work on Windows 8. You have to take some extra steps to make them work correctly, but it certainly can be done. In fact, Microsoft released a patch for Windows 8 not too long ago
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Yeah my eventual plan is to get a more powerfull desk tower to do a lot of this stuff. I don't care about full performance, but I do want as fast as at least my core2 is, I won't want to use all my cpus for a vm anyway. My other plan was to have an old xp box hanging round I have one for now. At 12:56 AM 12/21/2013, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Regarding virtual machines for playing older games etc unfortunately performance will always be something of an issue. You need a lot of ram and CPU power to run a guest operating system in memory and get something like native performance. As a rule of thumb the more ram and CPU power you have to throw at it the better it will run, but it still isn't quite as good as running it on a system natively. However, I personally do not see a better alternative at this point. Both Mac and Linux have Windows emulators, but those are frankly a pain in the butt to get working properly. I've tried playing games like Shades of Doom under Wine on Linux and the game constantly crashes. Others like Jim Kitchen's games work fine on Linux used with Wine. However, emulating software is hit and miss, and is not a perfect solution in any case. To be perfectly honest if someone like yourself is that concerned about hanging onto your older games and applications the best choice is to hold onto your older computer, keep XP on it, and just use it for that expressed purpose. For everything else you can use your new Windows computer for the Internet, e-mail, newer games, etc. That is the only way to have your cake and eat it too. cheers! On 12/19/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well I hope this does not come off to strong, but the reason I am still hanging on to xp is because some games, missippi, and the gma games gtc, lonewolf and sod really don't work that well witn 7. There is also the vb6 issue that will probably eventually come up. Now if the games we have that are done on old code could be updated if they are not being so allready then thats fine. If I know some of those old games will run on better oses, well. The other issue is I still have a lot of dos programs eamon mainly and want either a emulator like dosbox or a 32 bit dos extender that will run on top of windows as part of its command prompt I can use to run 16 bit games in 32 bit mode. I am also looking for accessable vertual machine software that won't slow down the system. on my i5 with 4gb ram, vmware player's vertual machines will slow down to almost nothing. vmware itself really makes my x64 bit system shudder, its in 32 bit mode mainly because I only use 32 bit software and guess what? everything else runs fine I can even run vocaliser express without it stuttering like my xp box does. I also like the win xp sound recorder for some of the sound stuff I do as a basic program. If I can satisfy all those needs, then I'll get my xp box which has a few issues and chuck it out the window, I'll even record it and upload the file to the web. But I doubt I'll ever get all I want so I am really not sure what I will do. My plan is to buy a micro server or a box with insane cpu, ram smart cards and hard drive space and load it up with vms and software that I can remotely boot off anywhere I am remotely and locally. That has its own challenges. However bar that the only other thing I will do is have an xp machine always which will probably mean having an extra system. It may mean running an old version of nvda to but I really have no solution. If there is any way for me to have my cake and eat it then please share. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
grin I remember tom. Ofcause we didn't have nvda then. Everyone was going over from not caring to what they ran their readers and how many ran if you ran 2 by mistake on win98 and lower so what. On the early xp days you got things wrong installed or uninstalled things the wrong way out of order and your display chain was totalled. I did it several times. You could fix this by deleting the chain, reloading the video card, and then rewriting your chains for the interceptors but it was so easy to mangle. Every time I did mangle things which happened weekly if my concentration went or even daily was to reformat. So I turn on something, run something wrongly and then swear. O beeep! I have done it again. Time to reformat again. And we didn't get dcm right away. We have nvda, the concerns are more interface related now. the switch from a desktop environment to a hybred environment is throwing some in a weird way including me, its just a load to handle I know I should be knowing by now but I havn't touched touch and feel like I am still in the deep end. I didn't care before now well. But yeah eventually there will be a time when there will be another big change. At 01:10 AM 12/21/2013, you wrote: Hi Shaun, You want to know what I find amusing about that comment? I think a lot of people in this community have completely forgotten the uproar caused by Microsoft releasing Windows XP. I remember people on the Jaws list and elsewhere swearing up and down they would never upgrade to XP, that XP is trash, that they will use Windows 98 until it dies. Now, some 12 years later exactly the opposite is true. People say things like they got it right with XP but if you were to go back in time and tell everyone that they would not believe you. The moral of the story is that it takes a very long time for the blind community to accept and adopt change. By the time they do they are already behind the mainstream, and will start kicking, screaming, and wining about how bad the changes are. A few years later it is all forgotten about until the next time the evil empire releases a new operating system that forces them to change. Cheers! On 12/19/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well personally once ms gets it right I just hope they stay right. they got it right with xp. some what with 7 after that its if you like it then fine but if not well. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
yep. go the windows defender. it's awesome! and very good too. and i have rarely found any scanner so accessible or simple to use. ok, it took microsoft about 10 or more years to do it, but it's there now. and it works well. and, as a side note, having a faster machine means that you get your every day tasks done with so much more smoothness and less hastle. wether you are wanting high speed performance for gaming, word processing, browsing the net, or what ever. it does make a difference to all tasks. it's offen hard to define what you would gain from it, till you have been on it for a while. only then, and then looking at your old system, do you realize just how much of a difference it has made to you. regards: Dallas On 19/12/2013, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Actually, the reason I upgrade and urge others to do so has nothing to do with some misplaced intrinsic value of newer hardware, more ram, and having my computers run more efficiently as you stated. I am not that shallow. The real reason I upgrade and urge others to do so is that I see real benefits in upgrading, but those benefits do not necessarily apply to you personally. For example, as you know I happen to run a number of different operating systems concurrently on my laptop. That requires a lot of CPU power and ram to run more than one OS in memory at a time. A 64-bit system with a quad core processor and 8 GB of ram would have direct and immediate benefit to me because I can give Windows 8.1 the first three or four GB of ram for running everything and give the other three or four GB of ram over to the virtual machine to use. That way both operating systems will have plenty of memory and CPU power to work with. Since you are only using XP at this time and have no desire to use Linux or another version of Windows in a virtual machine having multiple processors and several GB of ram aren't as beneficial to you as they would be to me. There is no argument about that fact. There are other benefits that I value because I genuinely think that they are necessary. Security happens to be one of those things I think is worthwhile paying for. Not just because of some misplaced intrinsic value in system security, but because I am a computer professional and have dealt with my fair share of systems that have been compromised due to poor security. Either the end user failed to update their computer, they failed to keep their antivirus up to date, or they did something else to compromize their security which ended up costing them money to fix. To give you an example a couple of weeks ago one of my aunts was on the Internet when a little dialog popped up asking her to download an update for XP. She did, and as soon as she did it installed a nasty piece of ransomware onto her computer that took over her PC, encrypted her hard drive, and when she started the computer all that would come up is a dialog box asking her for her credit card number to unlock her PC. Since she could not pay the $1,000 to get rid of the ransomware I had to come over reformat her hard drive, reinstall XP, and restore the system back to factory defaults. You want to know why I think XP is a poor choice for people? For one thing Windows XP has a major security hole which viruses, addware, ransomeware, etc has been exploiting for years and that is the admin account. If you run XP as admin, AKA super user, any virus or piece of malware you download has free reign over your computer and if your antivirus etc fails to stop it the malware can totally wipe out your system just because there is no way to prevent it. My aunt had antivirus software on her system, but it didn't stop the ransomware that took over her machine, because there was no way of stopping it. Windows 8.1 does however have an extra layer of security called User Account Control. I know people turn it off, think it is a pain in the butt, but it does stop things like viruses and other malware cold. Before a piece of software can be installed or run UAC will pop up and prompt you to confirm the action. It will tell you the name of the program, the manufacturer, and so on. That feature has saved me more than once from a malware attack because I was able to catch it and kill the process before it could do anything to my machine. Perhaps if my aunt had been running Windows 8 she could have called someone and asked about running this fake Windows update before it took over her PC as UAC would have blocked it and prompted her to confirm the installation and encryption of her drive. Besides UAC Windows 8 and Windows 8.1 comes with a number of basic security tools such as antivirus and malware protection out of the box. Yes, I know there is AVG, Avast, etc available for XP but the Microsoft tools are both free and accessible on Windows 8 and 8.1. Even better I find that they don't use as much system resources as third-party scanning
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Well tom I don't really believe there's much else to say since for me, security isn't an issue due to fhtird party software and I'd rather run avg than have the harrassment of running windows 8 and a virtual xp system. maybe that's different for you. if microsoft of course hadn't mucked up compatiblity with vb6 applications and dos programs, well I'd be happy to upgrade even with relearning the interface, and indeed I imagine everyone else currently running xp would as well, so it's certain where the blaime for this situation belongs. This is actually one prime advantage Ios seems to have over windows since it doesn't break existing programs when upgrading, and is another reason I'd like to investigate the actual bennifits (if any), of mac as opposed to windows 7 since if I've got to run xp in a virtual machine anyway, well it doesn't make too much difference whether I use mac or windows. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 1:27 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Dark, Actually, the reason I upgrade and urge others to do so has nothing to do with some misplaced intrinsic value of newer hardware, more ram, and having my computers run more efficiently as you stated. I am not that shallow. The real reason I upgrade and urge others to do so is that I see real benefits in upgrading, but those benefits do not necessarily apply to you personally. For example, as you know I happen to run a number of different operating systems concurrently on my laptop. That requires a lot of CPU power and ram to run more than one OS in memory at a time. A 64-bit system with a quad core processor and 8 GB of ram would have direct and immediate benefit to me because I can give Windows 8.1 the first three or four GB of ram for running everything and give the other three or four GB of ram over to the virtual machine to use. That way both operating systems will have plenty of memory and CPU power to work with. Since you are only using XP at this time and have no desire to use Linux or another version of Windows in a virtual machine having multiple processors and several GB of ram aren't as beneficial to you as they would be to me. There is no argument about that fact. There are other benefits that I value because I genuinely think that they are necessary. Security happens to be one of those things I think is worthwhile paying for. Not just because of some misplaced intrinsic value in system security, but because I am a computer professional and have dealt with my fair share of systems that have been compromised due to poor security. Either the end user failed to update their computer, they failed to keep their antivirus up to date, or they did something else to compromize their security which ended up costing them money to fix. To give you an example a couple of weeks ago one of my aunts was on the Internet when a little dialog popped up asking her to download an update for XP. She did, and as soon as she did it installed a nasty piece of ransomware onto her computer that took over her PC, encrypted her hard drive, and when she started the computer all that would come up is a dialog box asking her for her credit card number to unlock her PC. Since she could not pay the $1,000 to get rid of the ransomware I had to come over reformat her hard drive, reinstall XP, and restore the system back to factory defaults. You want to know why I think XP is a poor choice for people? For one thing Windows XP has a major security hole which viruses, addware, ransomeware, etc has been exploiting for years and that is the admin account. If you run XP as admin, AKA super user, any virus or piece of malware you download has free reign over your computer and if your antivirus etc fails to stop it the malware can totally wipe out your system just because there is no way to prevent it. My aunt had antivirus software on her system, but it didn't stop the ransomware that took over her machine, because there was no way of stopping it. Windows 8.1 does however have an extra layer of security called User Account Control. I know people turn it off, think it is a pain in the butt, but it does stop things like viruses and other malware cold. Before a piece of software can be installed or run UAC will pop up and prompt you to confirm the action. It will tell you the name of the program, the manufacturer, and so on. That feature has saved me more than once from a malware attack because I was able to catch it and kill the process before it could do anything to my machine. Perhaps if my aunt had been running Windows 8 she could have called someone and asked about running this fake Windows update before it took over her PC as UAC would have blocked it and prompted her to confirm the installation and encryption of her drive. Besides UAC Windows 8 and Windows 8.1
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Dallas, Oh, that is for sure. You don't really know how much better a little speed boost will make in every day tasks such as saving files, starting programs, or opening files until you experience it first-hand. For example, I do a lot of work with audio such as editing sounds and music and when opening and saving files in Goldwave on my Compaq it can take up to a minute to open and save a wav file. Longer if I want to encode it as an mp3 file. Now, on my Toshiba it takes less than half that for the same file. It is not so much that I can make do with less memory and a slower CPU, I certainly can, but why waste time opening and saving files etc when there is better hardware that can do it in less time? That to me seems to be the essence of having newer and better hardware. There is benefits in having faster hardware even if it doesn't seem like a big deal at the time. Your computer starts faster, computer shuts down faster, programs start faster, you can open and save files faster, etc. After you get use to the added speed and performance your old computer seems slower than watching paint dry because you have a hire expectation for how long basic tasks should take. Cheers! On 12/19/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: yep. go the windows defender. it's awesome! and very good too. and i have rarely found any scanner so accessible or simple to use. ok, it took microsoft about 10 or more years to do it, but it's there now. and it works well. and, as a side note, having a faster machine means that you get your every day tasks done with so much more smoothness and less hastle. wether you are wanting high speed performance for gaming, word processing, browsing the net, or what ever. it does make a difference to all tasks. it's offen hard to define what you would gain from it, till you have been on it for a while. only then, and then looking at your old system, do you realize just how much of a difference it has made to you. regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Dark, Sigh...You are probably right about the fact that we have said all that can be said on this subject. I feel like I'm in a boxing match where neither person has made any impact on the other and all we are doing is going round after round not getting anywhere. However, before I close this topic I feel the need to make a correction. Visual Basic 6 apps and games still work on Windows 8. You have to take some extra steps to make them work correctly, but it certainly can be done. In fact, Microsoft released a patch for Windows 8 not too long ago that extends support for older Visual Basic 6 apps and games for the lifetime of Windows 8. So what you said about Microsoft mucking up compatibility with Visual Basic 6 is not true. They have in fact tried to maintain compatibility as long as necessary while getting programmers to adopt .NET instead. Even if it were true can you possibly try and see it from their point of view for once instead of looking at this from a biased position. Visual Basic 6 was released in 1998. That was 15 years ago for a totally different operating system and generation of computers than we are dealing with today. There were several third-party ActiveX components for 16-bit and 32-bit Windows that are no longer supported by their respective companies causing major problems with VB 6 applications. Since those ActiveX components are not made by Microsoft, not supported by Microsoft, those problems are strictly the problem with the third-party companies that developed them for Windows 98 etc. there are of course plenty of other problems with Visual Basic 6, and Microsoft made the right decision by phasing out the language and components in exchange for a newer and better technology called .NET which is far superior to VB 6 ever was. The problem is this.. Despite .NET being better in various ways many people were happy with VB 6 and chose not to upgrade to .NET. A lot of VI gamers so no benefit to them in learning VB .NET so didn't. That is why most of the games out there are still written in VB 6, and really should be rewritten or updated. That's not Microsoft's fault that various accessible games were written in Visual Basic 6. Microsoft made it clear 10 years ago that developers should begin migrating to .NET, and if developers didn't listen that is their problem. They were told what is what, and yet despite all that Microsoft does maintain some basic compatibility for VB 6 because they want you and others to upgrade, but they also want to begin migrating developers away from old outdated technologies too. With the accessible games community we seem to be caught in a classic chicken and egg type situation. A lot of blind users will not upgrade to Windows 7 or Windows 8 until game developers stop producing games for XP. Game developers know most of their customers use XP so are still developing games for XP, and are not looking at developing games for Windows 8 because there are not enough customers to justify such a change in development. One side or the other needs to break the cycle or it is just going to continue for several years to come neither side moving because they haven't gotten what they wanted, and will not until the other side takes the initiative. To give you an example a lot of blind game developers are still using Visual Basic 6. Well we already know it was developed for Windows 95 and Windows 98, but works fine on XP. As long as the lion's share of blind gamers continue using XP there is no incentive for Developer X to upgrade to VB .NET or something else. Although, there are some users like me using Windows 8.1 and we can put pressure on him/her to make more games for Windows 8 they aren't going to listen until a critical mass is reached and most of those XP users switch to Windows 8. However, most of those XP users aren't going to switch to Windows 8 until they absolutely have to and they are waiting on Developer X to drop XP support which Developer X won't until the XP users switch. So both sides are waiting on the other to blink first and we have a bit of a Mexican stand-off. I do not know what the answer is, but Microsoft really isn't at fault for the situation regardless of what you think. Accessible game developers could have began phasing out VB 6 a long time ago and didn't. Accessible gamers could upgrade to Windows 8 and request that game developers get with the times but won't. Until one or the other decides to get off their apathy we will have the same old problem. Cheers! On 12/19/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Well tom I don't really believe there's much else to say since for me, security isn't an issue due to fhtird party software and I'd rather run avg than have the harrassment of running windows 8 and a virtual xp system. maybe that's different for you. if microsoft of course hadn't mucked up compatiblity with vb6 applications and dos programs, well I'd be happy to upgrade even with relearning the interface, and indeed I
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
well, I think people will start upgrading to windows7 and windows8 when xp support dies next year and their xp machines start getting infected with viruses and having major security flaws. and upgrading isn't really that hard or expensive. you can get a new dell latitude e4310 with windows7 from newegg for $280 or go to blaire technology group and get yourself a refurbished business machine there for $190 or less as well. I am happy with my two refurbished windows7 laptops that I got. they are not consumer refurbished they are 3 to 4 year old refurbished business machines which I on the one have 6gigs of ram and the other 4gigs of ram. they both work great! and all the tts engines and games I throw at them work great also. so guys go to newegg.com or blaire technology group and upgrade. oh, and, if you want send me your laptop and for $45 I'll set it up with the nvda screen reader, the apps you like and send it back. Josh using windows7 laptop On 12/19/2013 9:11 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Dark, Sigh...You are probably right about the fact that we have said all that can be said on this subject. I feel like I'm in a boxing match where neither person has made any impact on the other and all we are doing is going round after round not getting anywhere. However, before I close this topic I feel the need to make a correction. Visual Basic 6 apps and games still work on Windows 8. You have to take some extra steps to make them work correctly, but it certainly can be done. In fact, Microsoft released a patch for Windows 8 not too long ago that extends support for older Visual Basic 6 apps and games for the lifetime of Windows 8. So what you said about Microsoft mucking up compatibility with Visual Basic 6 is not true. They have in fact tried to maintain compatibility as long as necessary while getting programmers to adopt .NET instead. Even if it were true can you possibly try and see it from their point of view for once instead of looking at this from a biased position. Visual Basic 6 was released in 1998. That was 15 years ago for a totally different operating system and generation of computers than we are dealing with today. There were several third-party ActiveX components for 16-bit and 32-bit Windows that are no longer supported by their respective companies causing major problems with VB 6 applications. Since those ActiveX components are not made by Microsoft, not supported by Microsoft, those problems are strictly the problem with the third-party companies that developed them for Windows 98 etc. there are of course plenty of other problems with Visual Basic 6, and Microsoft made the right decision by phasing out the language and components in exchange for a newer and better technology called .NET which is far superior to VB 6 ever was. The problem is this.. Despite .NET being better in various ways many people were happy with VB 6 and chose not to upgrade to .NET. A lot of VI gamers so no benefit to them in learning VB .NET so didn't. That is why most of the games out there are still written in VB 6, and really should be rewritten or updated. That's not Microsoft's fault that various accessible games were written in Visual Basic 6. Microsoft made it clear 10 years ago that developers should begin migrating to .NET, and if developers didn't listen that is their problem. They were told what is what, and yet despite all that Microsoft does maintain some basic compatibility for VB 6 because they want you and others to upgrade, but they also want to begin migrating developers away from old outdated technologies too. With the accessible games community we seem to be caught in a classic chicken and egg type situation. A lot of blind users will not upgrade to Windows 7 or Windows 8 until game developers stop producing games for XP. Game developers know most of their customers use XP so are still developing games for XP, and are not looking at developing games for Windows 8 because there are not enough customers to justify such a change in development. One side or the other needs to break the cycle or it is just going to continue for several years to come neither side moving because they haven't gotten what they wanted, and will not until the other side takes the initiative. To give you an example a lot of blind game developers are still using Visual Basic 6. Well we already know it was developed for Windows 95 and Windows 98, but works fine on XP. As long as the lion's share of blind gamers continue using XP there is no incentive for Developer X to upgrade to VB .NET or something else. Although, there are some users like me using Windows 8.1 and we can put pressure on him/her to make more games for Windows 8 they aren't going to listen until a critical mass is reached and most of those XP users switch to Windows 8. However, most of those XP users aren't going to switch to Windows 8 until they absolutely have to and they are waiting on Developer X to drop XP support which Developer X won't
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Tom, Your discussion of VB6 was one of the best explanations of the situation I’ve seen on this list. We’re in the process of rewriting old titles to use the new Engine. The old ESP Softworks titles were all VB6. This is going to be an arduous transition, but we’ll get there, and the games will be better than ever when we do. It is unlikely we will continue supporting XP, though. As you stated, we have a Mexican stand off, and we can take this opportunity to move forward since Mac sales are so robust and Windows sales are definitely weaker. Sales of our new Windows titles have not warranted the effort we put into supporting XP. For future titles, if we can support it with minimal effort, we will. When the effort required to maintain support for XP exceeds a certain threshold though, we just can’t justify it. If Windows sales pick up and a lot of users are still using XP down the road, we may revisit the topic. As for those who blame Microsoft for incompatibilities with VB6, it is common for people with these types of views of the world to want to vilify any company once it reaches a certain size for absolutely everything, whether based on facts or not. I have no love for big corporations, either, but I’m also not naive enough to think that every one of them is the equivalent of Lord Voldemort. Remember, Apple is doomed because they use DRM on the music they sell in iTunes. They aren’t, and they don’t, and in fact haven’t had DRM in just about seven years now, but those kinds of knee jerk reactions lead to everything being someone else’s fault. Apple didn’t even have a choice with the DRM situation. The record labels dictated that situation. It’s unfortunate, because for the most part, people who take these kinds of views are hurting themselves more than anyone else. At least until they start spewing misinformation across the Internet. Microsoft surely hasn’t done developers, or themselves for that matter, any favors with a lot of idiotic decisions they’ve made over the last 15 years or so, but not everything is their fault, either. As I have said so often, the world is comprised of shades of gray. It is rarely, if ever, black and white. On Dec 19, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Sigh...You are probably right about the fact that we have said all that can be said on this subject. I feel like I'm in a boxing match where neither person has made any impact on the other and all we are doing is going round after round not getting anywhere. However, before I close this topic I feel the need to make a correction. Visual Basic 6 apps and games still work on Windows 8. You have to take some extra steps to make them work correctly, but it certainly can be done. In fact, Microsoft released a patch for Windows 8 not too long ago that extends support for older Visual Basic 6 apps and games for the lifetime of Windows 8. So what you said about Microsoft mucking up compatibility with Visual Basic 6 is not true. They have in fact tried to maintain compatibility as long as necessary while getting programmers to adopt .NET instead. Even if it were true can you possibly try and see it from their point of view for once instead of looking at this from a biased position. Visual Basic 6 was released in 1998. That was 15 years ago for a totally different operating system and generation of computers than we are dealing with today. There were several third-party ActiveX components for 16-bit and 32-bit Windows that are no longer supported by their respective companies causing major problems with VB 6 applications. Since those ActiveX components are not made by Microsoft, not supported by Microsoft, those problems are strictly the problem with the third-party companies that developed them for Windows 98 etc. there are of course plenty of other problems with Visual Basic 6, and Microsoft made the right decision by phasing out the language and components in exchange for a newer and better technology called .NET which is far superior to VB 6 ever was. The problem is this.. Despite .NET being better in various ways many people were happy with VB 6 and chose not to upgrade to .NET. A lot of VI gamers so no benefit to them in learning VB .NET so didn't. That is why most of the games out there are still written in VB 6, and really should be rewritten or updated. That's not Microsoft's fault that various accessible games were written in Visual Basic 6. Microsoft made it clear 10 years ago that developers should begin migrating to .NET, and if developers didn't listen that is their problem. They were told what is what, and yet despite all that Microsoft does maintain some basic compatibility for VB 6 because they want you and others to upgrade, but they also want to begin migrating developers away from old outdated technologies too. With the accessible games community we seem to be caught in a classic chicken and
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
hi. personally, I think it's time that the blind gaming community did what most of the real gaming industry did a while back. bring out a game, and say here you go, here are the requirements. its up to you how you deal with that. if a game dev brings out a game that takes advantage of newer hardware / newer software, I'm afraid it's up to the gamer to update and keep with it. they have done that for a long time now. and you don't seem to hear the complaints as much from them about it. sorry, but I think it's time the blind community starts trying to keep up, in stead of holding ourselves back, and then blaming Microsoft or apple or who ever, for all the things they have done wrong. sure. there are things that Microsoft messed up in windows 8. they fixed some of those in windows 8.1, and will soon be fixing more in the next version of windows, either next year, or in 2015. they admit they have made some mistakes, and are going about fixing that. but I'm afraid to say, that as time go's on, it will be harder and harder to support ancient languages and software based on them. it's not because they don't want to, but simply because the cost involved in doing so, is huge. I mean, come on. people are complaining about windows costing what it does now! imagine what they would say, if Microsoft turned around and said, well, we are going to have to charge an extra 50, or 100 dollars per licence, just to keep up support for 10 or 15 year old software and languages. I don't think that would go over well. and not being funny, but one of apples good sides, is that they don't do this. they say, right, here is the new system. this is what it uses. get used to it, or don't use our product. LOL. harsh, but in some ways, they have the right idea. just like they did with 64 bit. in stead of messing around having both 64 and 32 running on the same operating system in effect, as windows does now, they basically switched to pure 64 bit, and said, well, this is what we will use now. all app developers, update your software. I personally think windows should go all out 64 bit, and stop messing around. 64 bit is faster, and lets you actually use all your ram, in stead of only part of it. ahaha. even in XP, if you had 4 GB, you could never use it all! you could only use about 2 GB at any one time. how annoying! and programs running as a proper 64 bit app, are amazingly fast and smooth to work with. course, the only reason they haven't gotten rid of 32 bit, is cause most of the dev's still produce in nothing but 32 bit app's! such as mozilla, for one! they refuse to bring out a 64 bit version of their firefox or thunderbird! which is stupid, considering the security advantages 64 bit gives you. dallas On 20/12/2013, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Sigh...You are probably right about the fact that we have said all that can be said on this subject. I feel like I'm in a boxing match where neither person has made any impact on the other and all we are doing is going round after round not getting anywhere. However, before I close this topic I feel the need to make a correction. Visual Basic 6 apps and games still work on Windows 8. You have to take some extra steps to make them work correctly, but it certainly can be done. In fact, Microsoft released a patch for Windows 8 not too long ago that extends support for older Visual Basic 6 apps and games for the lifetime of Windows 8. So what you said about Microsoft mucking up compatibility with Visual Basic 6 is not true. They have in fact tried to maintain compatibility as long as necessary while getting programmers to adopt .NET instead. Even if it were true can you possibly try and see it from their point of view for once instead of looking at this from a biased position. Visual Basic 6 was released in 1998. That was 15 years ago for a totally different operating system and generation of computers than we are dealing with today. There were several third-party ActiveX components for 16-bit and 32-bit Windows that are no longer supported by their respective companies causing major problems with VB 6 applications. Since those ActiveX components are not made by Microsoft, not supported by Microsoft, those problems are strictly the problem with the third-party companies that developed them for Windows 98 etc. there are of course plenty of other problems with Visual Basic 6, and Microsoft made the right decision by phasing out the language and components in exchange for a newer and better technology called .NET which is far superior to VB 6 ever was. The problem is this.. Despite .NET being better in various ways many people were happy with VB 6 and chose not to upgrade to .NET. A lot of VI gamers so no benefit to them in learning VB .NET so didn't. That is why most of the games out there are still written in VB 6, and really should be rewritten or updated. That's not Microsoft's fault that various accessible games were written in
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Tom. to be honest I don't agree with you about microsoft simply because of the money involved. on xp I can run programs for dos written in qbasic, C and goodness knows what from 20 years ago. That is a huge corpus of material. Up to xp microsoft had a care for all that legacy support which is why I can download copies of even something like the dos version of hunt the wumpus from 1978 and run it. You could write a program in basic and it'd be fine on xp today, just as was the original plan for Eamon deluxe. With post xp windows however microsoft are following a model of upgrade or else to both devs and users alike, and no, I don't accept the arguement that microsoft couldn't include this support indeed the fact that they've seen the light with respect to vb6 shows that they could and were just being money grubbing with their phase out, (you yourself admit the price for all the vb net stuff). With games, well it's not just the case of running or not running so much as capabilities. A developer like Jim kitchin who has worked in vb6 for years, well what bennifits are there to him to running vb net other than the extra harrassment caused by microsoft and the need to buy new vb net tools. Also, would Jim Kitchin's games be any better for using vb net or another programming language than using vb 6? I don't kow, not being a programmer but that is also a question which needs answering. Ultimately it comes down as I said to bennifits. Whichever way you cut the cookie upgrading is a hassle, and a hassle which microsoft have only made worse with their buggered up interface and lack of compatibility, a fact which I'm glad to see they are at least recognizing with their including of vb6 support (I've heard lots of stories of things not working on windows 8 so it's good that microsoft are finally seeing some sense at least). To your stand off question well to be honest as I said if microsoft had done a better job with windows 7 we wouldn't be having this conversation. Maybe windows 8, maybe windows 9, maybe a future version will be better. I'm confident enough myself that something better than xp will! come along in the future which will make myself and others change, but until then well if people keep using xp and developers keep writing for it, what is so wrong with that? it's like laser disks and dvds. Back in the mid 1990's, I knew someone who had bought a new laser disk system. He claimed the video and sound were better, and all the technical bits were there and asked why I and other still used video. We said we used video becuase there were still more good films on video to watch than laserdisk, even though laserdisk was technically a better format. Of course 10 or so years later, and dvd replaced video, and myself and everyone else got to change our videos for dvds because there are now much better and cheaper films available on dvd than video, and most things that were originally video have been ported to dvd, and laserdisk has fallen by the way side, however had we migrated to laserdisk just because it was technically better we'd have not been any better off now. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Dark, I'd just like to point out some misinformation in this post, and some misunderstandings about Mac and iOS. First, you said that iOS apps never have compatibility issues with iOS upgrades. This is definitely not the case. Several apps, including Solara (to bring this somewhat back to games) had some serious bugs running on IOS 7, and some apps were completely unusable until the developers released updates to fix compatibility. Second, if you're looking for an OS that places a high priority on backward compatibility, you're not going to get it from OS X. Apple is much more aggressive about discontinuing old API's and technologies and removing them than even Microsoft is. Allow me to illustrate this. In 2005, Apple switched from using the Power PC processor architecture to the Intel X86/X64 architecture used by Windows PC's. In order to provide backward-compatibility for PowerPC applications, Apple included a PpC emulator called Rosetta. The last PPC-compatible OS X version was 10.5, released in 2007. Version 10.6, released in 2009, was not compatible with PowerPC hardware, but stil supported Rosetta. However, the next version, released in 2011, removed Rosetta support. Let's say that, for example, BSC Games had written their software for Mac instead of Windows. If I'm not mistaken, Pipe 2 was last updated in February 2005, a few months before Apple announced the Intel transition. Within just six years, you would no longer be able to run the game on newer versions of the OS. You could just refuse to update to a newer OS, but once your machine broke, you'd have no choice but to hunt down parts on eBay or be forced to stop using any incompatible software. On 12/19/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Well tom I don't really believe there's much else to say since for me, security isn't an issue due to fhtird party software and I'd rather run avg than have the harrassment of running windows 8 and a virtual xp system. maybe that's different for you. if microsoft of course hadn't mucked up compatiblity with vb6 applications and dos programs, well I'd be happy to upgrade even with relearning the interface, and indeed I imagine everyone else currently running xp would as well, so it's certain where the blaime for this situation belongs. This is actually one prime advantage Ios seems to have over windows since it doesn't break existing programs when upgrading, and is another reason I'd like to investigate the actual bennifits (if any), of mac as opposed to windows 7 since if I've got to run xp in a virtual machine anyway, well it doesn't make too much difference whether I use mac or windows. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Alex, Just adding a bit to your comments. Apple’s aggressive strategy regarding software upgrades tends to keep their platforms more robust and stable, but comes at the cost of some backward compatibility. That said, though, Apple has also made it extremely easy for developers to keep their software current, regardless of platform. Indeed, migrating from PPC to Intel was a painless transition for the vast majority of developers. Far more trivial than trying to upgrade VB6 apps, even under the best of circumstances. Much has been written, in fact, on just how good Apple has gotten at these kinds of technological transitions, and they get smoother and smoother as the years go by. So far, the major transitions have been: • OS Classic to OS X • Carbon to Cocoa • PPC to Intel • 32 bit to 64 bit Intel • 32 to 64 bit mobile I’m hoping that Microsoft will learn from its mistakes and adopt some similar strategies going forward. On Dec 19, 2013, at 12:41 PM, Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com wrote: Dark, I'd just like to point out some misinformation in this post, and some misunderstandings about Mac and iOS. First, you said that iOS apps never have compatibility issues with iOS upgrades. This is definitely not the case. Several apps, including Solara (to bring this somewhat back to games) had some serious bugs running on IOS 7, and some apps were completely unusable until the developers released updates to fix compatibility. Second, if you're looking for an OS that places a high priority on backward compatibility, you're not going to get it from OS X. Apple is much more aggressive about discontinuing old API's and technologies and removing them than even Microsoft is. Allow me to illustrate this. In 2005, Apple switched from using the Power PC processor architecture to the Intel X86/X64 architecture used by Windows PC's. In order to provide backward-compatibility for PowerPC applications, Apple included a PpC emulator called Rosetta. The last PPC-compatible OS X version was 10.5, released in 2007. Version 10.6, released in 2009, was not compatible with PowerPC hardware, but stil supported Rosetta. However, the next version, released in 2011, removed Rosetta support. Let's say that, for example, BSC Games had written their software for Mac instead of Windows. If I'm not mistaken, Pipe 2 was last updated in February 2005, a few months before Apple announced the Intel transition. Within just six years, you would no longer be able to run the game on newer versions of the OS. You could just refuse to update to a newer OS, but once your machine broke, you'd have no choice but to hunt down parts on eBay or be forced to stop using any incompatible software. On 12/19/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Well tom I don't really believe there's much else to say since for me, security isn't an issue due to fhtird party software and I'd rather run avg than have the harrassment of running windows 8 and a virtual xp system. maybe that's different for you. if microsoft of course hadn't mucked up compatiblity with vb6 applications and dos programs, well I'd be happy to upgrade even with relearning the interface, and indeed I imagine everyone else currently running xp would as well, so it's certain where the blaime for this situation belongs. This is actually one prime advantage Ios seems to have over windows since it doesn't break existing programs when upgrading, and is another reason I'd like to investigate the actual bennifits (if any), of mac as opposed to windows 7 since if I've got to run xp in a virtual machine anyway, well it doesn't make too much difference whether I use mac or windows. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi, Yes, I would definitely agree that Apple has always handled these transitions very well, much better than Microsoft. I think one reason for this is MS's large number of Enterprise customers. Enterprises tend to migrate to newer technologies extremely slowly, and I think this is holding MS back in many ways. There are several bugs in the Windows API that MS has left in because fixing them would break enterprise deployments of older software. I think Apple's relatively lower success in the enterprise is a good thing, as it allows them to evolve their products much more easily. On 12/19/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Alex, Just adding a bit to your comments. Apple’s aggressive strategy regarding software upgrades tends to keep their platforms more robust and stable, but comes at the cost of some backward compatibility. That said, though, Apple has also made it extremely easy for developers to keep their software current, regardless of platform. Indeed, migrating from PPC to Intel was a painless transition for the vast majority of developers. Far more trivial than trying to upgrade VB6 apps, even under the best of circumstances. Much has been written, in fact, on just how good Apple has gotten at these kinds of technological transitions, and they get smoother and smoother as the years go by. So far, the major transitions have been: • OS Classic to OS X • Carbon to Cocoa • PPC to Intel • 32 bit to 64 bit Intel • 32 to 64 bit mobile I’m hoping that Microsoft will learn from its mistakes and adopt some similar strategies going forward. On Dec 19, 2013, at 12:41 PM, Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com wrote: Dark, I'd just like to point out some misinformation in this post, and some misunderstandings about Mac and iOS. First, you said that iOS apps never have compatibility issues with iOS upgrades. This is definitely not the case. Several apps, including Solara (to bring this somewhat back to games) had some serious bugs running on IOS 7, and some apps were completely unusable until the developers released updates to fix compatibility. Second, if you're looking for an OS that places a high priority on backward compatibility, you're not going to get it from OS X. Apple is much more aggressive about discontinuing old API's and technologies and removing them than even Microsoft is. Allow me to illustrate this. In 2005, Apple switched from using the Power PC processor architecture to the Intel X86/X64 architecture used by Windows PC's. In order to provide backward-compatibility for PowerPC applications, Apple included a PpC emulator called Rosetta. The last PPC-compatible OS X version was 10.5, released in 2007. Version 10.6, released in 2009, was not compatible with PowerPC hardware, but stil supported Rosetta. However, the next version, released in 2011, removed Rosetta support. Let's say that, for example, BSC Games had written their software for Mac instead of Windows. If I'm not mistaken, Pipe 2 was last updated in February 2005, a few months before Apple announced the Intel transition. Within just six years, you would no longer be able to run the game on newer versions of the OS. You could just refuse to update to a newer OS, but once your machine broke, you'd have no choice but to hunt down parts on eBay or be forced to stop using any incompatible software. On 12/19/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Well tom I don't really believe there's much else to say since for me, security isn't an issue due to fhtird party software and I'd rather run avg than have the harrassment of running windows 8 and a virtual xp system. maybe that's different for you. if microsoft of course hadn't mucked up compatiblity with vb6 applications and dos programs, well I'd be happy to upgrade even with relearning the interface, and indeed I imagine everyone else currently running xp would as well, so it's certain where the blaime for this situation belongs. This is actually one prime advantage Ios seems to have over windows since it doesn't break existing programs when upgrading, and is another reason I'd like to investigate the actual bennifits (if any), of mac as opposed to windows 7 since if I've got to run xp in a virtual machine anyway, well it doesn't make too much difference whether I use mac or windows. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
hi, it's not only that, but simply because apple's user base is actually nothing, when it comes to a number situation. they have all of about 50 to 70 million users on mac, not all of which are up to date, but more then not. then Microsoft, has over 1.5 billion! users in windows. they have more people to please then apple. apple can get away with jumping to something different in an instant, cause half the world doesn't rely on them. where as for Microsoft, 95 percent of the entire computing world rely's on them. lol. that's a lot of responsibility. Dallas On 20/12/2013, Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Yes, I would definitely agree that Apple has always handled these transitions very well, much better than Microsoft. I think one reason for this is MS's large number of Enterprise customers. Enterprises tend to migrate to newer technologies extremely slowly, and I think this is holding MS back in many ways. There are several bugs in the Windows API that MS has left in because fixing them would break enterprise deployments of older software. I think Apple's relatively lower success in the enterprise is a good thing, as it allows them to evolve their products much more easily. On 12/19/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Alex, Just adding a bit to your comments. Apple’s aggressive strategy regarding software upgrades tends to keep their platforms more robust and stable, but comes at the cost of some backward compatibility. That said, though, Apple has also made it extremely easy for developers to keep their software current, regardless of platform. Indeed, migrating from PPC to Intel was a painless transition for the vast majority of developers. Far more trivial than trying to upgrade VB6 apps, even under the best of circumstances. Much has been written, in fact, on just how good Apple has gotten at these kinds of technological transitions, and they get smoother and smoother as the years go by. So far, the major transitions have been: • OS Classic to OS X • Carbon to Cocoa • PPC to Intel • 32 bit to 64 bit Intel • 32 to 64 bit mobile I’m hoping that Microsoft will learn from its mistakes and adopt some similar strategies going forward. On Dec 19, 2013, at 12:41 PM, Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com wrote: Dark, I'd just like to point out some misinformation in this post, and some misunderstandings about Mac and iOS. First, you said that iOS apps never have compatibility issues with iOS upgrades. This is definitely not the case. Several apps, including Solara (to bring this somewhat back to games) had some serious bugs running on IOS 7, and some apps were completely unusable until the developers released updates to fix compatibility. Second, if you're looking for an OS that places a high priority on backward compatibility, you're not going to get it from OS X. Apple is much more aggressive about discontinuing old API's and technologies and removing them than even Microsoft is. Allow me to illustrate this. In 2005, Apple switched from using the Power PC processor architecture to the Intel X86/X64 architecture used by Windows PC's. In order to provide backward-compatibility for PowerPC applications, Apple included a PpC emulator called Rosetta. The last PPC-compatible OS X version was 10.5, released in 2007. Version 10.6, released in 2009, was not compatible with PowerPC hardware, but stil supported Rosetta. However, the next version, released in 2011, removed Rosetta support. Let's say that, for example, BSC Games had written their software for Mac instead of Windows. If I'm not mistaken, Pipe 2 was last updated in February 2005, a few months before Apple announced the Intel transition. Within just six years, you would no longer be able to run the game on newer versions of the OS. You could just refuse to update to a newer OS, but once your machine broke, you'd have no choice but to hunt down parts on eBay or be forced to stop using any incompatible software. On 12/19/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Well tom I don't really believe there's much else to say since for me, security isn't an issue due to fhtird party software and I'd rather run avg than have the harrassment of running windows 8 and a virtual xp system. maybe that's different for you. if microsoft of course hadn't mucked up compatiblity with vb6 applications and dos programs, well I'd be happy to upgrade even with relearning the interface, and indeed I imagine everyone else currently running xp would as well, so it's certain where the blaime for this situation belongs. This is actually one prime advantage Ios seems to have over windows since it doesn't break existing programs when upgrading, and is another reason I'd like to investigate the actual bennifits (if any), of mac as opposed to windows 7 since if I've got to run xp in a virtual machine anyway, well it doesn't make too much difference whether I use mac or windows.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Well Dallas, your supposition doesn’t hold up to much scrutiny, since Apple has, and does, major transitions on iOS all the time, and there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 to 700 million iOS devices in use. A much more key difference is that, with Apple products, the hardware and software are integrated in such a way as to vastly improve reliability and cut down on the infinity numbers of configurations and complexity we see in PC’s. Makers of game consoles also use an integrated strategy, and we are seeing it adopted by more and more electronics companies, because it simply works, and provides users with a superior experience. Microsoft is slowly dabbling with integrated products, first with the restrictions on Windows Phone hardware and then by producing the Surface RT and Surface Pro. They have, of course, done this for quite some time with Xbox. So the sheer number of users really has little to do with it. It’s simply that Apple has historically done this better. On Dec 19, 2013, at 2:38 PM, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi, it's not only that, but simply because apple's user base is actually nothing, when it comes to a number situation. they have all of about 50 to 70 million users on mac, not all of which are up to date, but more then not. then Microsoft, has over 1.5 billion! users in windows. they have more people to please then apple. apple can get away with jumping to something different in an instant, cause half the world doesn't rely on them. where as for Microsoft, 95 percent of the entire computing world rely's on them. lol. that's a lot of responsibility. Dallas On 20/12/2013, Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Yes, I would definitely agree that Apple has always handled these transitions very well, much better than Microsoft. I think one reason for this is MS's large number of Enterprise customers. Enterprises tend to migrate to newer technologies extremely slowly, and I think this is holding MS back in many ways. There are several bugs in the Windows API that MS has left in because fixing them would break enterprise deployments of older software. I think Apple's relatively lower success in the enterprise is a good thing, as it allows them to evolve their products much more easily. On 12/19/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Alex, Just adding a bit to your comments. Apple’s aggressive strategy regarding software upgrades tends to keep their platforms more robust and stable, but comes at the cost of some backward compatibility. That said, though, Apple has also made it extremely easy for developers to keep their software current, regardless of platform. Indeed, migrating from PPC to Intel was a painless transition for the vast majority of developers. Far more trivial than trying to upgrade VB6 apps, even under the best of circumstances. Much has been written, in fact, on just how good Apple has gotten at these kinds of technological transitions, and they get smoother and smoother as the years go by. So far, the major transitions have been: • OS Classic to OS X • Carbon to Cocoa • PPC to Intel • 32 bit to 64 bit Intel • 32 to 64 bit mobile I’m hoping that Microsoft will learn from its mistakes and adopt some similar strategies going forward. On Dec 19, 2013, at 12:41 PM, Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com wrote: Dark, I'd just like to point out some misinformation in this post, and some misunderstandings about Mac and iOS. First, you said that iOS apps never have compatibility issues with iOS upgrades. This is definitely not the case. Several apps, including Solara (to bring this somewhat back to games) had some serious bugs running on IOS 7, and some apps were completely unusable until the developers released updates to fix compatibility. Second, if you're looking for an OS that places a high priority on backward compatibility, you're not going to get it from OS X. Apple is much more aggressive about discontinuing old API's and technologies and removing them than even Microsoft is. Allow me to illustrate this. In 2005, Apple switched from using the Power PC processor architecture to the Intel X86/X64 architecture used by Windows PC's. In order to provide backward-compatibility for PowerPC applications, Apple included a PpC emulator called Rosetta. The last PPC-compatible OS X version was 10.5, released in 2007. Version 10.6, released in 2009, was not compatible with PowerPC hardware, but stil supported Rosetta. However, the next version, released in 2011, removed Rosetta support. Let's say that, for example, BSC Games had written their software for Mac instead of Windows. If I'm not mistaken, Pipe 2 was last updated in February 2005, a few months before Apple announced the Intel transition. Within just six years, you would no longer be able to run the game on newer versions of the OS. You could just refuse to update to a newer OS,
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Just an interesting tidbit on this discussion. Marco Arment, original developer of Tumblr, InstaaPaper, and the Magazine, has been doing some research today regarding the release of the Mac Pros and how they compare to PC’s of similar spec. His comparisons are with the $3999 Mac Pro. For a similar Dell with slower SSD drives and no Thunderbolt ports, the price was $4034. The Dell did come bundled with a keyboard and mouse, but of course the real hit will be with the SSD’s. For an HP that was even closer in spec, the price was $5699. He usually writes blog posts when he does this kind of research, so I’ll share that link if he does. Macs are not more expensive. Apple just doesn’t care to compete for the low-end of the market. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Josh, I definitely agree with your points. As far as USA Games is concerned we aren't going out of our way to drop support for XP, but neither are we going to go out of our way to support it. At some point when we begin adopting newer Windows components and if it isn't XP compatible too bad. As I stated I am already running Windows 8.1 and as lead developer I can take advantage of various new components, modern hardware, and I see no need to cripple my software because x number of gamers won't upgrade. I may take a loss initially, but I am also looking at supporting Mac and perhaps Linux in time which will recoup the losses in sales to XP users. So I am not as concerned about XP support as I might be if I were only looking at the Windows market specifically. Cheers! On 12/19/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Tom, Your discussion of VB6 was one of the best explanations of the situation I’ve seen on this list. We’re in the process of rewriting old titles to use the new Engine. The old ESP Softworks titles were all VB6. This is going to be an arduous transition, but we’ll get there, and the games will be better than ever when we do. It is unlikely we will continue supporting XP, though. As you stated, we have a Mexican stand off, and we can take this opportunity to move forward since Mac sales are so robust and Windows sales are definitely weaker. Sales of our new Windows titles have not warranted the effort we put into supporting XP. For future titles, if we can support it with minimal effort, we will. When the effort required to maintain support for XP exceeds a certain threshold though, we just can’t justify it. If Windows sales pick up and a lot of users are still using XP down the road, we may revisit the topic. As for those who blame Microsoft for incompatibilities with VB6, it is common for people with these types of views of the world to want to vilify any company once it reaches a certain size for absolutely everything, whether based on facts or not. I have no love for big corporations, either, but I’m also not naive enough to think that every one of them is the equivalent of Lord Voldemort. Remember, Apple is doomed because they use DRM on the music they sell in iTunes. They aren’t, and they don’t, and in fact haven’t had DRM in just about seven years now, but those kinds of knee jerk reactions lead to everything being someone else’s fault. Apple didn’t even have a choice with the DRM situation. The record labels dictated that situation. It’s unfortunate, because for the most part, people who take these kinds of views are hurting themselves more than anyone else. At least until they start spewing misinformation across the Internet. Microsoft surely hasn’t done developers, or themselves for that matter, any favors with a lot of idiotic decisions they’ve made over the last 15 years or so, but not everything is their fault, either. As I have said so often, the world is comprised of shades of gray. It is rarely, if ever, black and white. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
If you can take advantage of more modern tools to develop games, but a lot of gamers cannot, where does that leave you? --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Josh, I definitely agree with your points. As far as USA Games is concerned we aren't going out of our way to drop support for XP, but neither are we going to go out of our way to support it. At some point when we begin adopting newer Windows components and if it isn't XP compatible too bad. As I stated I am already running Windows 8.1 and as lead developer I can take advantage of various new components, modern hardware, and I see no need to cripple my software because x number of gamers won't upgrade. I may take a loss initially, but I am also looking at supporting Mac and perhaps Linux in time which will recoup the losses in sales to XP users. So I am not as concerned about XP support as I might be if I were only looking at the Windows market specifically. Cheers! On 12/19/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Tom, Your discussion of VB6 was one of the best explanations of the situation I’ve seen on this list. We’re in the process of rewriting old titles to use the new Engine. The old ESP Softworks titles were all VB6. This is going to be an arduous transition, but we’ll get there, and the games will be better than ever when we do. It is unlikely we will continue supporting XP, though. As you stated, we have a Mexican stand off, and we can take this opportunity to move forward since Mac sales are so robust and Windows sales are definitely weaker. Sales of our new Windows titles have not warranted the effort we put into supporting XP. For future titles, if we can support it with minimal effort, we will. When the effort required to maintain support for XP exceeds a certain threshold though, we just can’t justify it. If Windows sales pick up and a lot of users are still using XP down the road, we may revisit the topic. As for those who blame Microsoft for incompatibilities with VB6, it is common for people with these types of views of the world to want to vilify any company once it reaches a certain size for absolutely everything, whether based on facts or not. I have no love for big corporations, either, but I’m also not naive enough to think that every one of them is the equivalent of Lord Voldemort. Remember, Apple is doomed because they use DRM on the music they sell in iTunes. They aren’t, and they don’t, and in fact haven’t had DRM in just about seven years now, but those kinds of knee jerk reactions lead to everything being someone else’s fault. Apple didn’t even have a choice with the DRM situation. The record labels dictated that situation. It’s unfortunate, because for the most part, people who take these kinds of views are hurting themselves more than anyone else. At least until they start spewing misinformation across the Internet. Microsoft surely hasn’t done developers, or themselves for that matter, any favors with a lot of idiotic decisions they’ve made over the last 15 years or so, but not everything is their fault, either. As I have said so often, the world is comprised of shades of gray. It is rarely, if ever, black and white. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi. I don’t mean to give anyone a hard time or anything, I see what you’re saying. But, what about the security wholes in xp that won’t be patched anymore? How will you be sure to remain secure? regards Maria and crew from australia email: bubbygirl1...@gmail.com check out www.95-the-mix.com where we play lots of great music On 18 Dec 2013, at 5:46 pm, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. I do appreciate that in theory, things will stop running on xp, and I can't run new versions, heck I'm still running ie8. The problem is that all the compatibility stuff hasn't yet made any practical difference. I've not found any websites, services, applications or things I want to use that require a better machine than I have. Fundamentally if there was some really good new feature of the updated windows media player, some websites or net games I wanted to play or something else in updates that I couldn't do with xp, I would indeed upgrade the system and get used to it. Regarding security and hardware, well 64 bit actually is a bad thing for me since it ruins compatibility with dos programs, and once again nothing requires it. I can accept that the hardware might be more advanced, but that is of no bennifit to me personally if there is nothing I wish to do that requires it. of course, this situation will not go on forever. I fully expect in several years there will be some awsome new features of new os that I will want to play with, some games or programs that I can't run on xp etc, indeed I'm quite amazed that this hasn't already come up. Back in 2007 when windows 7 was first produced I fully expected by around 2010 or 2011, there to be a lot of games, websites, new and inervative media playback and other peaces of software that I'd need better hardware or a new os for, making the hassle of learning the new interface, kicking out compatibility and mucking about with virtual machines and other things worth my time. I'm actually amazed this hasn't happened yet, and despite the aspersions of certain individuals this is indeed why I have been so careful to research Windows 7 to the best of my ability and convenience. As I said I fully expect this situation to change in the future, but at the moment it hasn't. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Well maria, that is what I rely on Avg and pc tuneup for. I also will disable automatic updates after April so that nobody attempting malicious hacks through the system will have access. I do agree security is an issue, but at the same time I don't see the point in being paranoid about it. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Maria and Joe Chapman bubbygirl1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi. I don’t mean to give anyone a hard time or anything, I see what you’re saying. But, what about the security wholes in xp that won’t be patched anymore? How will you be sure to remain secure? regards Maria and crew from australia email: bubbygirl1...@gmail.com check out www.95-the-mix.com where we play lots of great music On 18 Dec 2013, at 5:46 pm, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. I do appreciate that in theory, things will stop running on xp, and I can't run new versions, heck I'm still running ie8. The problem is that all the compatibility stuff hasn't yet made any practical difference. I've not found any websites, services, applications or things I want to use that require a better machine than I have. Fundamentally if there was some really good new feature of the updated windows media player, some websites or net games I wanted to play or something else in updates that I couldn't do with xp, I would indeed upgrade the system and get used to it. Regarding security and hardware, well 64 bit actually is a bad thing for me since it ruins compatibility with dos programs, and once again nothing requires it. I can accept that the hardware might be more advanced, but that is of no bennifit to me personally if there is nothing I wish to do that requires it. of course, this situation will not go on forever. I fully expect in several years there will be some awsome new features of new os that I will want to play with, some games or programs that I can't run on xp etc, indeed I'm quite amazed that this hasn't already come up. Back in 2007 when windows 7 was first produced I fully expected by around 2010 or 2011, there to be a lot of games, websites, new and inervative media playback and other peaces of software that I'd need better hardware or a new os for, making the hassle of learning the new interface, kicking out compatibility and mucking about with virtual machines and other things worth my time. I'm actually amazed this hasn't happened yet, and despite the aspersions of certain individuals this is indeed why I have been so careful to research Windows 7 to the best of my ability and convenience. As I said I fully expect this situation to change in the future, but at the moment it hasn't. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Bryan, Not only that, but there are workarounds for running older software in say Windows 8.1. As I have said many times a person can get VMWare Player, install XP in that, and run it side by side with Windows 8.1 allowing you to play any games or use any apps that does not work with Windows 8.1. That gives you, the end user, a choice of which OS to use and you end up with the best of both worlds. I'm not sure why people are so apposed to doing things that way, but it does work. Cheers! On 12/17/13, Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote: It's funny. I'd actually like to try out both Mac and Windows 8.1. I migt lose access to afew games but they're not ones I play much these days. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Dark, Just a correction here. Windows 7 was released in 2010 not 2007. Windows Vista came out in January 2007. I wanted to point that out as you seem to be confusing the two here. However, I do take your point. The reason XP is still widely supported by websites, some third-party programs, and so forth is that it still holds a significant portion of the Windows PC market. Windows, Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8,and Windows 8.1 has not been as successful as Microsoft had planned, and as a result many software developers know cutting XP off at this point is equivalent to cutting their own throats. I'll give you a simple example of that in practice. One of the things I have been looking at is ways I can improve my game engine so that Raceway and MOTA will run better on new Windows machines. The problem is there are a lot of blind users that feel as you do that XP is the best there ever was, the best there is, and the best that will ever be and will not upgrade for any reason. So despite any advantages I could add to my games by targeting a newer version of Windows I would not be able to make as large a profit off my games if I exclude half my customer base. As a developer I have to support whatever a large portion of my potential customers are using. Of course, mainstream companies are less handstrung because they are not selling to a minority market. At some point the number of mainstream users running Windows 7, Windows 8, or 8.1 will out number XP and it won't hurt them to drop XP support. Probably they will begin this migration sometime next year after Microsoft drops support for XP the way they did when Microsoft dropped support for 98 and Millennium. Of course, one problem facing mainstream and accessible technology markets is there are far more users using XP now, than there were 98 users in 2006 when Microsoft dropped Windows 9x support. So third-party support may linger a couple more years until the mainstream market catches up to current Windows technology. The only way I can see personally to deal with the situation is attempt to support both for as long as necessary. What I mean by that with games like MOTA and Raceway they are already XP compatible because they were designed that way from the beginning, and there is no need to cut XP support off at the knees just because something newer came along. I can however release an updated version of both that uses some newer APIs like XAudio2 or have 64-bit builds for newer 64-bit machines. That helps target people running new machines while not removing support for XP in the process. that's the only way I can see being fair to both groups of users at this point. In a couple of years I can consider dropping support for XP in newer games and hopefully people will have made the switch by then. Cheers! On 12/18/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. I do appreciate that in theory, things will stop running on xp, and I can't run new versions, heck I'm still running ie8. The problem is that all the compatibility stuff hasn't yet made any practical difference. I've not found any websites, services, applications or things I want to use that require a better machine than I have. Fundamentally if there was some really good new feature of the updated windows media player, some websites or net games I wanted to play or something else in updates that I couldn't do with xp, I would indeed upgrade the system and get used to it. Regarding security and hardware, well 64 bit actually is a bad thing for me since it ruins compatibility with dos programs, and once again nothing requires it. I can accept that the hardware might be more advanced, but that is of no bennifit to me personally if there is nothing I wish to do that requires it. of course, this situation will not go on forever. I fully expect in several years there will be some awsome new features of new os that I will want to play with, some games or programs that I can't run on xp etc, indeed I'm quite amazed that this hasn't already come up. Back in 2007 when windows 7 was first produced I fully expected by around 2010 or 2011, there to be a lot of games, websites, new and inervative media playback and other peaces of software that I'd need better hardware or a new os for, making the hassle of learning the new interface, kicking out compatibility and mucking about with virtual machines and other things worth my time. I'm actually amazed this hasn't happened yet, and despite the aspersions of certain individuals this is indeed why I have been so careful to research Windows 7 to the best of my ability and convenience. As I said I fully expect this situation to change in the future, but at the moment it hasn't. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Dark, Just a correction here. Windows 7 was released in 2010 not 2007. Windows Vista came out in January 2007. I wanted to point that out as you seem to be confusing the two here. However, I do take your point. The reason XP is still widely supported by websites, some third-party programs, and so forth is that it still holds a significant portion of the Windows PC market. Windows, Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8,and Windows 8.1 has not been as successful as Microsoft had planned, and as a result many software developers know cutting XP off at this point is equivalent to cutting their own throats. I'll give you a simple example of that in practice. One of the things I have been looking at is ways I can improve my game engine so that Raceway and MOTA will run better on new Windows machines. The problem is there are a lot of blind users that feel as you do that XP is the best there ever was, the best there is, and the best that will ever be and will not upgrade for any reason. So despite any advantages I could add to my games by targeting a newer version of Windows I would not be able to make as large a profit off my games if I exclude half my customer base. As a developer I have to support whatever a large portion of my potential customers are using. Of course, mainstream companies are less handstrung because they are not selling to a minority market. At some point the number of mainstream users running Windows 7, Windows 8, or 8.1 will out number XP and it won't hurt them to drop XP support. Probably they will begin this migration sometime next year after Microsoft drops support for XP the way they did when Microsoft dropped support for 98 and Millennium. Of course, one problem facing mainstream and accessible technology markets is there are far more users using XP now, than there were 98 users in 2006 when Microsoft dropped Windows 9x support. So third-party support may linger a couple more years until the mainstream market catches up to current Windows technology. The only way I can see personally to deal with the situation is attempt to support both for as long as necessary. What I mean by that with games like MOTA and Raceway they are already XP compatible because they were designed that way from the beginning, and there is no need to cut XP support off at the knees just because something newer came along. I can however release an updated version of both that uses some newer APIs like XAudio2 or have 64-bit builds for newer 64-bit machines. That helps target people running new machines while not removing support for XP in the process. that's the only way I can see being fair to both groups of users at this point. In a couple of years I can consider dropping support for XP in newer games and hopefully people will have made the switch by then. Cheers! On 12/18/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. I do appreciate that in theory, things will stop running on xp, and I can't run new versions, heck I'm still running ie8. The problem is that all the compatibility stuff hasn't yet made any practical difference. I've not found any websites, services, applications or things I want to use that require a better machine than I have. Fundamentally if there was some really good new feature of the updated windows media player, some websites or net games I wanted to play or something else in updates that I couldn't do with xp, I would indeed upgrade the system and get used to it. Regarding security and hardware, well 64 bit actually is a bad thing for me since it ruins compatibility with dos programs, and once again nothing requires it. I can accept that the hardware might be more advanced, but that is of no bennifit to me personally if there is nothing I wish to do that requires it. of course, this situation will not go on forever. I fully expect in several years there will be some awsome new features of new os that I will want to play with, some games or programs that I can't run on xp etc, indeed I'm quite amazed that this hasn't already come up. Back in 2007 when windows 7 was first produced I fully expected by around 2010 or 2011, there to be a lot of games, websites, new and inervative media playback and other peaces of software that I'd need better hardware or a new os for, making the hassle of learning the new interface, kicking out compatibility and mucking about with virtual machines and other things worth my time. I'm actually amazed this hasn't happened yet, and despite the aspersions of certain individuals this is indeed why I have been so careful to research Windows 7 to the best of my ability and convenience. As I said I fully expect this situation to change in the future, but at the moment it hasn't. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
hi Thomas, a correction to the correction. lol. windows 7 came out in 2009. July 22, 2009; 4 years ago General availability October 22, 2009; 4 years ago dallas On 18/12/2013, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Just a correction here. Windows 7 was released in 2010 not 2007. Windows Vista came out in January 2007. I wanted to point that out as you seem to be confusing the two here. However, I do take your point. The reason XP is still widely supported by websites, some third-party programs, and so forth is that it still holds a significant portion of the Windows PC market. Windows, Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8,and Windows 8.1 has not been as successful as Microsoft had planned, and as a result many software developers know cutting XP off at this point is equivalent to cutting their own throats. I'll give you a simple example of that in practice. One of the things I have been looking at is ways I can improve my game engine so that Raceway and MOTA will run better on new Windows machines. The problem is there are a lot of blind users that feel as you do that XP is the best there ever was, the best there is, and the best that will ever be and will not upgrade for any reason. So despite any advantages I could add to my games by targeting a newer version of Windows I would not be able to make as large a profit off my games if I exclude half my customer base. As a developer I have to support whatever a large portion of my potential customers are using. Of course, mainstream companies are less handstrung because they are not selling to a minority market. At some point the number of mainstream users running Windows 7, Windows 8, or 8.1 will out number XP and it won't hurt them to drop XP support. Probably they will begin this migration sometime next year after Microsoft drops support for XP the way they did when Microsoft dropped support for 98 and Millennium. Of course, one problem facing mainstream and accessible technology markets is there are far more users using XP now, than there were 98 users in 2006 when Microsoft dropped Windows 9x support. So third-party support may linger a couple more years until the mainstream market catches up to current Windows technology. The only way I can see personally to deal with the situation is attempt to support both for as long as necessary. What I mean by that with games like MOTA and Raceway they are already XP compatible because they were designed that way from the beginning, and there is no need to cut XP support off at the knees just because something newer came along. I can however release an updated version of both that uses some newer APIs like XAudio2 or have 64-bit builds for newer 64-bit machines. That helps target people running new machines while not removing support for XP in the process. that's the only way I can see being fair to both groups of users at this point. In a couple of years I can consider dropping support for XP in newer games and hopefully people will have made the switch by then. Cheers! On 12/18/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. I do appreciate that in theory, things will stop running on xp, and I can't run new versions, heck I'm still running ie8. The problem is that all the compatibility stuff hasn't yet made any practical difference. I've not found any websites, services, applications or things I want to use that require a better machine than I have. Fundamentally if there was some really good new feature of the updated windows media player, some websites or net games I wanted to play or something else in updates that I couldn't do with xp, I would indeed upgrade the system and get used to it. Regarding security and hardware, well 64 bit actually is a bad thing for me since it ruins compatibility with dos programs, and once again nothing requires it. I can accept that the hardware might be more advanced, but that is of no bennifit to me personally if there is nothing I wish to do that requires it. of course, this situation will not go on forever. I fully expect in several years there will be some awsome new features of new os that I will want to play with, some games or programs that I can't run on xp etc, indeed I'm quite amazed that this hasn't already come up. Back in 2007 when windows 7 was first produced I fully expected by around 2010 or 2011, there to be a lot of games, websites, new and inervative media playback and other peaces of software that I'd need better hardware or a new os for, making the hassle of learning the new interface, kicking out compatibility and mucking about with virtual machines and other things worth my time. I'm actually amazed this hasn't happened yet, and despite the aspersions of certain individuals this is indeed why I have been so careful to research Windows 7 to the best of my ability and convenience. As I said I fully expect this situation to change in the future,
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Dallas, Oops! I stand corrected. Still, my basic point still stands. It was not 2007. :D Cheers! On 12/18/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi Thomas, a correction to the correction. lol. windows 7 came out in 2009. July 22, 2009; 4 years ago General availability October 22, 2009; 4 years ago dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
yep, I know. lol. it's amusing in a sense, it doesn't feel that long ago that 7 came out. but when you look at it, its now 4 years old. even windows 8 is now a year old. time gos fast, doesn't it. dallas On 19/12/2013, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dallas, Oops! I stand corrected. Still, my basic point still stands. It was not 2007. :D Cheers! On 12/18/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi Thomas, a correction to the correction. lol. windows 7 came out in 2009. July 22, 2009; 4 years ago General availability October 22, 2009; 4 years ago dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Tom. I was probably thinking of vista, since I do know when getting my desktop repared in 2008 I very much didn't want a machine with newer windows, which was one other advantage of going to a local custom manufacturer since all the main shops like Pc world were the slaves of microsoft and ramming newer versions down people's throats. Well I have said under what circumstances I'll upgrade. Yes, I can run xp in a virtual machine and I am glad there is that option, but if the newer os doesn't actually bennifit me, well why have the hassle? to be honest I can understand that someone like yourself who cares about all the technical stuff is interested in the newer os, but I am getting slightly irritated with having the position I'm in missrepresented or missunderstoo. I do not think xp is the best thing there ever will be, neither do I reffuse to upgrade, I merely don't see the point at the moment, that is all, and I fully expect in the future that this will change when a new os actually make a practical difference that is worth the hassle. That is another reason I spent time playing with Windows 7 and I'd like to try mac and windows 8 in the same way, although at this point in time I have a sneaking suspicion that it will be a hardware not a software change such as touch screen control or something like. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Tom, Dark, and others, I am not sure that anyone is misrepresenting your position, Dark. You want tangible benefits to a very small set of criteria, but life is made up of a combination of both tangibles and intangibles. For instance, perhaps you don’t spell check because you are using XP. A benefit to using a Mac is that the spell checker is built in and system wide, meaning that you can take advantage of it anywhere with no additional cost. I’m not sure if later versions of Windows have this, but I know for along time Microsoft wanted that to be a premium feature available only in Office. However, that benefit would not impact you directly, only those of us reading your messages. It would be, to you at least, an intangible benefit that would impact how you are perceived by others. However, it does not fall into your very narrow parameters, and so therefore you discount it. In the case of those clinging to XP such as yourself, whether out of stubbornness or necessity, the biggest concern I have is security. Perhaps it will take a major catastrophe, such as a loss of data, identity theft, loss of funds in one’s bank account, to wake some of you up. It won’t happen to everyone, but the more blasé you are about the security benefits of upgrading, the more likely you are to be one of those victims. But again, this is an intangible that you will not care about until you are one of them. It is one thing to decide that now is not the time for you to upgrade. That’s your decision. I think Tom and I are only pointing out good reasons you may wish to that you have dismissed based on misinformation or flawed logic. On Dec 18, 2013, at 9:36 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I was probably thinking of vista, since I do know when getting my desktop repared in 2008 I very much didn't want a machine with newer windows, which was one other advantage of going to a local custom manufacturer since all the main shops like Pc world were the slaves of microsoft and ramming newer versions down people's throats. Well I have said under what circumstances I'll upgrade. Yes, I can run xp in a virtual machine and I am glad there is that option, but if the newer os doesn't actually bennifit me, well why have the hassle? to be honest I can understand that someone like yourself who cares about all the technical stuff is interested in the newer os, but I am getting slightly irritated with having the position I'm in missrepresented or missunderstoo. I do not think xp is the best thing there ever will be, neither do I reffuse to upgrade, I merely don't see the point at the moment, that is all, and I fully expect in the future that this will change when a new os actually make a practical difference that is worth the hassle. That is another reason I spent time playing with Windows 7 and I'd like to try mac and windows 8 in the same way, although at this point in time I have a sneaking suspicion that it will be a hardware not a software change such as touch screen control or something like. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Dallas, Yeah, time is definitely passing by. I guess the reason I thought Windows 7 came out in 2010 because that must have been when I upgraded my machines from Vista to Windows 7. Still, it is hard to believe that much time has gone by, and Windows 8 is a year old already. It does not seem possible, but it is. Cheers! On 12/18/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: yep, I know. lol. it's amusing in a sense, it doesn't feel that long ago that 7 came out. but when you look at it, its now 4 years old. even windows 8 is now a year old. time gos fast, doesn't it. dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Josh, Just a note about the spell checker. It is true that in older versions of Outlook Express it did not come with a spell checker. However, Windows Live Mail, the e-mail client that replaces Outlook Express on Windows 7 and Windows 8, does come with a spell checker. So that does help your point about upgrading having both tangible and intangible benefits. Cheers! On 12/18/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Hi Tom, Dark, and others, I am not sure that anyone is misrepresenting your position, Dark. You want tangible benefits to a very small set of criteria, but life is made up of a combination of both tangibles and intangibles. For instance, perhaps you don’t spell check because you are using XP. A benefit to using a Mac is that the spell checker is built in and system wide, meaning that you can take advantage of it anywhere with no additional cost. I’m not sure if later versions of Windows have this, but I know for along time Microsoft wanted that to be a premium feature available only in Office. However, that benefit would not impact you directly, only those of us reading your messages. It would be, to you at least, an intangible benefit that would impact how you are perceived by others. However, it does not fall into your very narrow parameters, and so therefore you discount it. In the case of those clinging to XP such as yourself, whether out of stubbornness or necessity, the biggest concern I have is security. Perhaps it will take a major catastrophe, such as a loss of data, identity theft, loss of funds in one’s bank account, to wake some of you up. It won’t happen to everyone, but the more blasé you are about the security benefits of upgrading, the more likely you are to be one of those victims. But again, this is an intangible that you will not care about until you are one of them. It is one thing to decide that now is not the time for you to upgrade. That’s your decision. I think Tom and I are only pointing out good reasons you may wish to that you have dismissed based on misinformation or flawed logic. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Dark, I certainly don't want to misrepresent your position, and I do think I understand your position very well. I guess for me I'm just very concerned that you are making a bad decision based on very flawed criteria, or at the very least the perceived benefits you are looking for are too me a bit short sighted. Bottom line, we don't see this the same way and I guess we probably never will. I am very concerned about security, feel people should take it more seriously than they do, and you are being less concerned about it than I feel is warranted. Same could be said about hardware and other things I pointed out. You don't see any benefit, fine, but that does not mean my points are not valid. It is just that you have a totally different outlook and do not value the same things I do when it comes to hardware and software. Cheers! On 12/18/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I was probably thinking of vista, since I do know when getting my desktop repared in 2008 I very much didn't want a machine with newer windows, which was one other advantage of going to a local custom manufacturer since all the main shops like Pc world were the slaves of microsoft and ramming newer versions down people's throats. Well I have said under what circumstances I'll upgrade. Yes, I can run xp in a virtual machine and I am glad there is that option, but if the newer os doesn't actually bennifit me, well why have the hassle? to be honest I can understand that someone like yourself who cares about all the technical stuff is interested in the newer os, but I am getting slightly irritated with having the position I'm in missrepresented or missunderstoo. I do not think xp is the best thing there ever will be, neither do I reffuse to upgrade, I merely don't see the point at the moment, that is all, and I fully expect in the future that this will change when a new os actually make a practical difference that is worth the hassle. That is another reason I spent time playing with Windows 7 and I'd like to try mac and windows 8 in the same way, although at this point in time I have a sneaking suspicion that it will be a hardware not a software change such as touch screen control or something like. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Well i wouldn't say my criteria are that narrow, I just want something that actually is of some use to me in what I do. To me your like someone who says buy this new car. it doesn't go any faster, use less fuel or handle better, but it's got different engine parts and so will wear out in 40 years rather than 30 years, and all the controls are layed out differently so you'll have to spend time learning to use it again Forgive me if I actually want something that drives better if I've got to take the time to learn again. I also wouldn't describe spell check as an intangible bennifit either, it would indeed be fairly evident, although I do have to equally balance it against the fact that I lose the convenient contacts list one tab away from my in box in outlook express and would be entirely reliant upon the auto complete feature of windows live mail or searching through the address book to find the person I wanted to E-mail, which is something I could get used to eventually though it is more inconvenient than just having all my contacts immediately there. As I said I also do take security seriously and will discuss this with Avg in April, although I do believe more people are paranoid about it than need to be considdering that a lot of very basic practical steps can be taken even before you considder the operating system. For example, since none of my bank account details are located on my computer at all and I only ever pay for things online on a credit card with an extremely low limit who's payments I must personally authorise at the bank, it'd be nearly impossible for anyone to actually steal any money from me even if they did hack my computer. The most a person could do is make one payment on my credit card, and assuming they didn't hit my low limit and get automatically cancelled by it, I've still not lost anything since as soon as I noticed the payment I hadn't made i could cancel the card and the bill, (an advantage with having a credit card with my bank). this actually happened to a friend of mine, not with a net credit card but with someone happening to see and replicate her credit card number in a shop and indeed since it was a card it was possible to cancel. As I said, I do take security as a serious matter, though though things like user account control (which most people turn off anyway), just seem more pointless hassle to me, since it's not something that has ever caused problems in xp. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Well, look at iOs 7. I really didn't want to upgrade. I was used to iOS6, but apps just stopped working with 6, like Fleksy, so I had no choice. Also, i wanted the opportunity to try DoItWrite, but that alone didn't convince me to upgrade. There were too many bugs, too much hastle--but when things quit working I took the plunge. Imagine my great joy when all my games still worked, and Aurifi even works better on 7. I've been playing Aurifi for days now, and wish I'd upgraded sooner since it's one of my top three faves. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . Also, check out, The Believer and Skeptic Show, at iTunes! If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:42 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Well tome there is also the fact that it is possible to get used to just about anything, indeed there are situations where the human ability to do this is quite scary. I suspect I could learn to live with windows 7 if there was actually a reason to do so, the same way I learnt to use the Iphone touch screen. This is however also why i tried Ios before I bought an Iphone, since if I was going to spend that amount of money on something I wanted to be dam sure about it first. One problem however I think if you lack sight generally with any interface is because you don't have the quick and instant aaccess to information and overview a sighted person does, you are naturally going to take more time learning new positions and thus be more wary of any change in that established learn routine. Think of it this way, suppose you go into your favourite local restauant and they've utterly rearranged the tables so that the counter is at the opposite end of the room. for a sighted person, no problem. But for a blind person who neesd to remember the positioning of objects it means more learning. This is especially true when things are complex. Of course, everyone gets used to doing this, however it still takes time and energy that a sighted person does not have to expend. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Well Tom I do agree our criteria are different. I think part of this is that you, as a person with a rpactical interest in computers attach some sort of intrinsic value to the efficiency of hardware and software. You care for example that modern machines have more ram and use more memory more efficiently as a basic good in and of itself, you see a computer as a designed object with some sort of value in and of itself, perhaps even an aesthetic appreciation for it's correct running. I confess I don't understand this, since for me a computer has only instrumental value and has no worth above and beyond what it can do for me. To take another example, I know there are now consoles around that in technology are orders of magnitude more powerful than the capabilities of my snes, yet because they don't have games I can play, I don't care about them, indeed on a personal level I rather wish Nintendo was still developing snes games that I could play rather than games for more powerful modern consoles that I can't, for all I know that isn't going to happen. As I've said I'm fairly certain that at some point in the future the situation with respect to computers at least will change, but it certainly hasn't as yet. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Equally though ken, Ios 7 didn't stop anything in ios 6 working, and to me at least the interface is similar enough so there wasn't much hassle getting used to it. I admit I didn't grab it straight away, I checked what bennifits it came with, but the Siri upgrades convinced me it was a something better, plus it didn't seem I was particularly losing much by upgrading other than perhaps moving some icons around. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Ken Downey kenwdow...@thepionear.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Well, look at iOs 7. I really didn't want to upgrade. I was used to iOS6, but apps just stopped working with 6, like Fleksy, so I had no choice. Also, i wanted the opportunity to try DoItWrite, but that alone didn't convince me to upgrade. There were too many bugs, too much hastle--but when things quit working I took the plunge. Imagine my great joy when all my games still worked, and Aurifi even works better on 7. I've been playing Aurifi for days now, and wish I'd upgraded sooner since it's one of my top three faves. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . Also, check out, The Believer and Skeptic Show, at iTunes! If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:42 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Well tome there is also the fact that it is possible to get used to just about anything, indeed there are situations where the human ability to do this is quite scary. I suspect I could learn to live with windows 7 if there was actually a reason to do so, the same way I learnt to use the Iphone touch screen. This is however also why i tried Ios before I bought an Iphone, since if I was going to spend that amount of money on something I wanted to be dam sure about it first. One problem however I think if you lack sight generally with any interface is because you don't have the quick and instant aaccess to information and overview a sighted person does, you are naturally going to take more time learning new positions and thus be more wary of any change in that established learn routine. Think of it this way, suppose you go into your favourite local restauant and they've utterly rearranged the tables so that the counter is at the opposite end of the room. for a sighted person, no problem. But for a blind person who neesd to remember the positioning of objects it means more learning. This is especially true when things are complex. Of course, everyone gets used to doing this, however it still takes time and energy that a sighted person does not have to expend. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Ah, but if we upgrade from Windows XP to Windows 8.1, will all of our games still work? You're comparing apples to oranges. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Ken Downey kenwdow...@thepionear.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Well, look at iOs 7. I really didn't want to upgrade. I was used to iOS6, but apps just stopped working with 6, like Fleksy, so I had no choice. Also, i wanted the opportunity to try DoItWrite, but that alone didn't convince me to upgrade. There were too many bugs, too much hastle--but when things quit working I took the plunge. Imagine my great joy when all my games still worked, and Aurifi even works better on 7. I've been playing Aurifi for days now, and wish I'd upgraded sooner since it's one of my top three faves. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . Also, check out, The Believer and Skeptic Show, at iTunes! If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:42 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Well tome there is also the fact that it is possible to get used to just about anything, indeed there are situations where the human ability to do this is quite scary. I suspect I could learn to live with windows 7 if there was actually a reason to do so, the same way I learnt to use the Iphone touch screen. This is however also why i tried Ios before I bought an Iphone, since if I was going to spend that amount of money on something I wanted to be dam sure about it first. One problem however I think if you lack sight generally with any interface is because you don't have the quick and instant aaccess to information and overview a sighted person does, you are naturally going to take more time learning new positions and thus be more wary of any change in that established learn routine. Think of it this way, suppose you go into your favourite local restauant and they've utterly rearranged the tables so that the counter is at the opposite end of the room. for a sighted person, no problem. But for a blind person who neesd to remember the positioning of objects it means more learning. This is especially true when things are complex. Of course, everyone gets used to doing this, however it still takes time and energy that a sighted person does not have to expend. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Arifi still works? I like that game a lot. I just haven't played it for awhile. Teresa Sent using Alpine messaging system in Mac OS X Terminal On Wed, 18 Dec 2013, Ken Downey wrote: Well, look at iOs 7. I really didn't want to upgrade. I was used to iOS6, but apps just stopped working with 6, like Fleksy, so I had no choice. Also, i wanted the opportunity to try DoItWrite, but that alone didn't convince me to upgrade. There were too many bugs, too much hastle--but when things quit working I took the plunge. Imagine my great joy when all my games still worked, and Aurifi even works better on 7. I've been playing Aurifi for days now, and wish I'd upgraded sooner since it's one of my top three faves. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . Also, check out, The Believer and Skeptic Show, at iTunes! If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
