Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
I would be interested to know more about tereria and what would be needed to get this going for the blind in a what if type of scenario. I need as much detail as I can get though. I know that reality gaming studios is full up right now but I could put it in the ideas cue. thanks At 06:21 AM 1/9/2014, you wrote: Hi guys. First of all, there's a sort of minimalist trend in the sighted gaming community. There're a lot of fake 8-bit offerings and offerings with minimal sound and graphics, primarily because independent developers and very small studios are really driving the community at this point. Minecraft was developed by, I think, five guys or so. It's made them millionaires many times over, and frankly I don't like the concept. I rather like Terraria, and I wish more people played it. It's different from Minecraft, the music and feeling of the game are different, the mechanics are different. Will we ever be able to play this precise kind of game? No. There're too many chances of missing something important, but there are other and varied ways to make the same thing work.Soundscaping, terrain blocks making different sounds, adaptive music, etc. If someone wanted me to brainstorm for them on how to make a game like Terraria work for the blind, I will happily do so. I don't have the coding skills to actually make it work (my best and only computer game to date is a crappy port of Lunar Lander I put together in a C-Sharp class). I have the knowledge of what is possible to code and a vague idea of how to do it though, so I probably wouldn't be asking for anything too radical. I'm eager for this style of game, among others. I've talked to a couple of developers privately about them, but nothing has panned out. I wish someone would play to my strengths and recruit me for ideas, story, and a bit of pseudocode. The offer is open. On 1/8/14, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi jim. That reminds me of the old Amigar workbench synthesisor. Again it wasn't a screen reader but could read out what you typed, and also be recorded if you were programming for the Amigar and ddn't want to use a full size sound sample which obvious took up lots of memory at the time. Workbench sounds pretty dire compared to sapi, and I never actually used it to do any serious computer things myself me being about 8-11 when we had the Amigar and never having used a propper computer, but I do remember playing some public domain games that used the synth in some fun ways. There was a port of the old (and very difficult), platformer hunchback which had a sampled version of the music with Workbench wrapping quasy modo is a nice man, quasy modo is a nice man which was funny, (it also had lots of amusing game text before levels too). Probably the best use I saw of workbench was in a public domain game called war. This was a mix of stratogy and action. So you would have a map with planets to move to, resources to build fleets, research etc, however whenever you got a battle you'd have to physically fight it in a 2D spaceship game style. Actually thinking about it it would make a pretty awsome audio game :D. The thing I remember best is that the amigar workbench voice was used to play the evil aliens, the Zargans who were fighting against the player controled vaigans, and so when it was your turn to place fleets or alocate resources it'd say things like try your best hu mon (and yes, it did say Hu mon well before Quark in ds9), or over to you,embryo head the best was when you lost battles however as the voice would make comments like the Vaigan fleet has been destroyed, I am so sad I think I will commit suicide or the vaigan fleet has been destroyed, ha ha ha or even the vaigan fleet has been destroyed, I think your joystic is made of concrete What was so funny about these is they were all in a dead flat, very robotic monotone, which naturally made them very hilarious to hear. My brother also claimed that if you destroyed enough enemy fleets it'd say the zargan fleet has been destroyed you bastard but I never heard this myself. Very much a case though of a bad synth actually being hilarious in the way it contributed to the game. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. -- Signed: Dakotah Rickard --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
That depends onwhich Speak and Spell you had. I know of at least two models. Tere was one that hada voice that never used contractions. Youare right, that is correct, that sort of tin. THen there was another one that did use them. THis second onehad a game calledLetter Stumper that I used to love. It was basically Simon but with letters. Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? -Original Message- From: Ken Downey Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 7:34 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. My fave was SAM, a synth made for the c64. It sounded betterr than some I've heard since, that's for sure, but still quite 8-bit. My other favorite was the speak and spell voice. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . Also, check out, The Believer and Skeptic Show, at iTunes! If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: dark Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Hi Dark, I don't think that I have ever heard or heard of the Amigar workbench synthesizer. Sounds like you have fun with it and that it made some games fun to play. I do think that it would be fun to have some old synthesizer speech in some games. BFN Jim Taglines...one line freedom of speech! j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Dark, I don't think that I have ever heard or heard of the Amigar workbench synthesizer. Sounds like you have fun with it and that it made some games fun to play. I do think that it would be fun to have some old synthesizer speech in some games. BFN Jim Taglines...one line freedom of speech! j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
My fave was SAM, a synth made for the c64. It sounded betterr than some I've heard since, that's for sure, but still quite 8-bit. My other favorite was the speak and spell voice. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . Also, check out, The Believer and Skeptic Show, at iTunes! If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: dark Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Hi Dark, I don't think that I have ever heard or heard of the Amigar workbench synthesizer. Sounds like you have fun with it and that it made some games fun to play. I do think that it would be fun to have some old synthesizer speech in some games. BFN Jim Taglines...one line freedom of speech! j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Ken, When you say, a c64, was that the Commodore 64? I heard that the Commodore 64 had a built in synthesizer. I was given a program named Sams for the Atari 800 XL that would talk. It was not a screen reader, but would say what ever you typed in. It would even make the sound of any thing that you typed in. Kind of wish that sapi5 would still do that. grin BTW the Atari 800 XL was out at the same time as the Commodore 64 and had the same amount of ram etc. At the time I was not happy going from the Atari 800 XL to an IBM PC because the Atari 800 XL had four sound channels with effects and the PC only had one. Just didn't seem to be the way to go for creating games with cool sounds. BFN Jim The command prompt is our friend. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Shaun, Minecraft is actually an excellent game, and the music and sounds make sense if you have vision and can see the graphics. However, it's not a game that the blind can effectively play, and it's not a game that can be made accessible - the graphics are what make it awesome. Being able to see in the distance and maybe pick out a weird configuration of blocks that might be a buried castle, being able to build structures that you can look at, making some goofy monument that spells out your mom's name in block letters - those are the things you do with your time there. It's not a regular game with quests and an end. It's more like a giant sandbox for people to find and build gigantic 3d objects, often in complete silence. -dentin Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 7:57 PM, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well I played minecraft with my cousin on his xbox 360. Firstly the music is utter crap. It may have improved in the pc version but it made my ears want to drop off after just a minute of listening. The sound fx sounded like they were coming out of a crappy sound box kids use. Now I am not saying sound boxes are crap I have 2 of them but I wouldn't concidder them worthy of playing games with. There is supposed to be more sounds that are better. But unless minecraft was made tesxt based or something I think I'd get bored after 5 minutes of play, I quit using it. At 04:17 PM 1/7/2014, you wrote: Hi listers Minecraft itself was quite cheap, considering the price of 15 euros when I purchased it. But as those guys are actually pushing the limits of Java, the humble talking about accessibility of mine fell on deaf ears, but so long it's ok, my relatives are playing under my account and enjoying it immensely. Minecraft as a matter of fact doesn't even have a ton of sounds attached to it, if not talking about mods. The only thing that needs to be realised here is that I think we are coming to the point where people are not afraid any more having a 100x100 map layed out before them and navigating it if sufficient data is provided. David Greenwood with his T.O.T. managed to make a small incursion into the land of such big maps and I hope that when T.O.T. gets updated it gets much more into it. But this is generally more to speaking about the strategy games. Was there anything so difficult about mortal kombat? No. The answer is simple, the playroom is small, so moving is limited, but what really gave the game it's replayability was the intelligent AI and the fact that you needed to act fast as hell, thereby producing huge amounts of adrenaline. Mortal kombat was easily beatable by anyone without sight. Now coming to the new mortal kombats on consoles or the last one on pc, than the story modes and such puzzles would need some tweaks for those who can't see, but it's all a question of making it. At this point I would think it could be easier to program a game similar to minecraft or civilisation, because before civ4, even they didn't make heavy use of sounds and background music. Thousand thanks for reading with kind regards Dengo Jürgen --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi jim. That reminds me of the old Amigar workbench synthesisor. Again it wasn't a screen reader but could read out what you typed, and also be recorded if you were programming for the Amigar and ddn't want to use a full size sound sample which obvious took up lots of memory at the time. Workbench sounds pretty dire compared to sapi, and I never actually used it to do any serious computer things myself me being about 8-11 when we had the Amigar and never having used a propper computer, but I do remember playing some public domain games that used the synth in some fun ways. There was a port of the old (and very difficult), platformer hunchback which had a sampled version of the music with Workbench wrapping quasy modo is a nice man, quasy modo is a nice man which was funny, (it also had lots of amusing game text before levels too). Probably the best use I saw of workbench was in a public domain game called war. This was a mix of stratogy and action. So you would have a map with planets to move to, resources to build fleets, research etc, however whenever you got a battle you'd have to physically fight it in a 2D spaceship game style. Actually thinking about it it would make a pretty awsome audio game :D. The thing I remember best is that the amigar workbench voice was used to play the evil aliens, the Zargans who were fighting against the player controled vaigans, and so when it was your turn to place fleets or alocate resources it'd say things like try your best hu mon (and yes, it did say Hu mon well before Quark in ds9), or over to you,embryo head the best was when you lost battles however as the voice would make comments like the Vaigan fleet has been destroyed, I am so sad I think I will commit suicide or the vaigan fleet has been destroyed, ha ha ha or even the vaigan fleet has been destroyed, I think your joystic is made of concrete What was so funny about these is they were all in a dead flat, very robotic monotone, which naturally made them very hilarious to hear. My brother also claimed that if you destroyed enough enemy fleets it'd say the zargan fleet has been destroyed you bastard but I never heard this myself. Very much a case though of a bad synth actually being hilarious in the way it contributed to the game. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi guys. First of all, there's a sort of minimalist trend in the sighted gaming community. There're a lot of fake 8-bit offerings and offerings with minimal sound and graphics, primarily because independent developers and very small studios are really driving the community at this point. Minecraft was developed by, I think, five guys or so. It's made them millionaires many times over, and frankly I don't like the concept. I rather like Terraria, and I wish more people played it. It's different from Minecraft, the music and feeling of the game are different, the mechanics are different. Will we ever be able to play this precise kind of game? No. There're too many chances of missing something important, but there are other and varied ways to make the same thing work.Soundscaping, terrain blocks making different sounds, adaptive music, etc. If someone wanted me to brainstorm for them on how to make a game like Terraria work for the blind, I will happily do so. I don't have the coding skills to actually make it work (my best and only computer game to date is a crappy port of Lunar Lander I put together in a C-Sharp class). I have the knowledge of what is possible to code and a vague idea of how to do it though, so I probably wouldn't be asking for anything too radical. I'm eager for this style of game, among others. I've talked to a couple of developers privately about them, but nothing has panned out. I wish someone would play to my strengths and recruit me for ideas, story, and a bit of pseudocode. The offer is open. On 1/8/14, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi jim. That reminds me of the old Amigar workbench synthesisor. Again it wasn't a screen reader but could read out what you typed, and also be recorded if you were programming for the Amigar and ddn't want to use a full size sound sample which obvious took up lots of memory at the time. Workbench sounds pretty dire compared to sapi, and I never actually used it to do any serious computer things myself me being about 8-11 when we had the Amigar and never having used a propper computer, but I do remember playing some public domain games that used the synth in some fun ways. There was a port of the old (and very difficult), platformer hunchback which had a sampled version of the music with Workbench wrapping quasy modo is a nice man, quasy modo is a nice man which was funny, (it also had lots of amusing game text before levels too). Probably the best use I saw of workbench was in a public domain game called war. This was a mix of stratogy and action. So you would have a map with planets to move to, resources to build fleets, research etc, however whenever you got a battle you'd have to physically fight it in a 2D spaceship game style. Actually thinking about it it would make a pretty awsome audio game :D. The thing I remember best is that the amigar workbench voice was used to play the evil aliens, the Zargans who were fighting against the player controled vaigans, and so when it was your turn to place fleets or alocate resources it'd say things like try your best hu mon (and yes, it did say Hu mon well before Quark in ds9), or over to you,embryo head the best was when you lost battles however as the voice would make comments like the Vaigan fleet has been destroyed, I am so sad I think I will commit suicide or the vaigan fleet has been destroyed, ha ha ha or even the vaigan fleet has been destroyed, I think your joystic is made of concrete What was so funny about these is they were all in a dead flat, very robotic monotone, which naturally made them very hilarious to hear. My brother also claimed that if you destroyed enough enemy fleets it'd say the zargan fleet has been destroyed you bastard but I never heard this myself. Very much a case though of a bad synth actually being hilarious in the way it contributed to the game. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. -- Signed: Dakotah Rickard --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
hi. well put. my girlfriend plays minecraft all the time, and yes, the sounds could be better. but they aren't the point of the game. lol. many sighted games have horrible sounds. because, to put it quite simply, they don't care about sounds much. it's only in expensive, highly complex and emersive games, where the sounds are very important too. Dallas On 9 Jan 2014, at 2:27, Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com wrote: Shaun, Minecraft is actually an excellent game, and the music and sounds make sense if you have vision and can see the graphics. However, it's not a game that the blind can effectively play, and it's not a game that can be made accessible - the graphics are what make it awesome. Being able to see in the distance and maybe pick out a weird configuration of blocks that might be a buried castle, being able to build structures that you can look at, making some goofy monument that spells out your mom's name in block letters - those are the things you do with your time there. It's not a regular game with quests and an end. It's more like a giant sandbox for people to find and build gigantic 3d objects, often in complete silence. -dentin Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 7:57 PM, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well I played minecraft with my cousin on his xbox 360. Firstly the music is utter crap. It may have improved in the pc version but it made my ears want to drop off after just a minute of listening. The sound fx sounded like they were coming out of a crappy sound box kids use. Now I am not saying sound boxes are crap I have 2 of them but I wouldn't concidder them worthy of playing games with. There is supposed to be more sounds that are better. But unless minecraft was made tesxt based or something I think I'd get bored after 5 minutes of play, I quit using it. At 04:17 PM 1/7/2014, you wrote: Hi listers Minecraft itself was quite cheap, considering the price of 15 euros when I purchased it. But as those guys are actually pushing the limits of Java, the humble talking about accessibility of mine fell on deaf ears, but so long it's ok, my relatives are playing under my account and enjoying it immensely. Minecraft as a matter of fact doesn't even have a ton of sounds attached to it, if not talking about mods. The only thing that needs to be realised here is that I think we are coming to the point where people are not afraid any more having a 100x100 map layed out before them and navigating it if sufficient data is provided. David Greenwood with his T.O.T. managed to make a small incursion into the land of such big maps and I hope that when T.O.T. gets updated it gets much more into it. But this is generally more to speaking about the strategy games. Was there anything so difficult about mortal kombat? No. The answer is simple, the playroom is small, so moving is limited, but what really gave the game it's replayability was the intelligent AI and the fact that you needed to act fast as hell, thereby producing huge amounts of adrenaline. Mortal kombat was easily beatable by anyone without sight. Now coming to the new mortal kombats on consoles or the last one on pc, than the story modes and such puzzles would need some tweaks for those who can't see, but it's all a question of making it. At this point I would think it could be easier to program a game similar to minecraft or civilisation, because before civ4, even they didn't make heavy use of sounds and background music. Thousand thanks for reading with kind regards Dengo Jürgen --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Ken, I did not do as well as you did at Donkey Kong. Not sure that I ever even beat level one. Pole Position might have been my favorite as well. Pretty sure that I used to get pole position. I even liked the time trial or practice mode. I would practice taking the best lines through the turns etc. You know trying to get better and better lap times. I forget though which Atari games were for my 2600 and which were for my 800 XL home computer. BFN Jim Ohio is so friendly that Hi is it's middle name. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi guys. I'm not sure how open this topic is anymore, but there's another game that I think you guys should be aware of. It's a bit like Minecraft, but it's in a 2d setting, a side scroller. That would be both a lot more doable and a lot easier to actually pull off as an accessible game. I'm not suggesting that we could play Terraria either, but it's a concept worth looking at, and frankly I think it's a much better game than Minecraft. On 1/7/14, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Ken, I did not do as well as you did at Donkey Kong. Not sure that I ever even beat level one. Pole Position might have been my favorite as well. Pretty sure that I used to get pole position. I even liked the time trial or practice mode. I would practice taking the best lines through the turns etc. You know trying to get better and better lap times. I forget though which Atari games were for my 2600 and which were for my 800 XL home computer. BFN Jim Ohio is so friendly that Hi is it's middle name. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. -- Signed: Dakotah Rickard --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hello, I'd forgotten Terraria completely! Terraria is also a similar game but as it was said, only in 2d. The question is, is there anyone, who knows the game good enough to, and would be willing to start to think on a concept similar to that. Lugupidamisega Jürgen --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Well I played minecraft with my cousin on his xbox 360. Firstly the music is utter crap. It may have improved in the pc version but it made my ears want to drop off after just a minute of listening. The sound fx sounded like they were coming out of a crappy sound box kids use. Now I am not saying sound boxes are crap I have 2 of them but I wouldn't concidder them worthy of playing games with. There is supposed to be more sounds that are better. But unless minecraft was made tesxt based or something I think I'd get bored after 5 minutes of play, I quit using it. At 04:17 PM 1/7/2014, you wrote: Hi listers Minecraft itself was quite cheap, considering the price of 15 euros when I purchased it. But as those guys are actually pushing the limits of Java, the humble talking about accessibility of mine fell on deaf ears, but so long it's ok, my relatives are playing under my account and enjoying it immensely. Minecraft as a matter of fact doesn't even have a ton of sounds attached to it, if not talking about mods. The only thing that needs to be realised here is that I think we are coming to the point where people are not afraid any more having a 100x100 map layed out before them and navigating it if sufficient data is provided. David Greenwood with his T.O.T. managed to make a small incursion into the land of such big maps and I hope that when T.O.T. gets updated it gets much more into it. But this is generally more to speaking about the strategy games. Was there anything so difficult about mortal kombat? No. The answer is simple, the playroom is small, so moving is limited, but what really gave the game it's replayability was the intelligent AI and the fact that you needed to act fast as hell, thereby producing huge amounts of adrenaline. Mortal kombat was easily beatable by anyone without sight. Now coming to the new mortal kombats on consoles or the last one on pc, than the story modes and such puzzles would need some tweaks for those who can't see, but it's all a question of making it. At this point I would think it could be easier to program a game similar to minecraft or civilisation, because before civ4, even they didn't make heavy use of sounds and background music. Thousand thanks for reading with kind regards Dengo Jürgen --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
. and it really doesn't have to be that way. even if we don't quite work the same way as mainstream, games shouldn't have just a few levels, and that's it. specially when the price is up over 30 bucks. even TDV isn't outside my complaints. yes, it has a cool mission mode. and don't get me wrong, they've done a fantastic job on it. but, ... it's a single mission. once I've completed it, that will be it. that function will be of less use to me. now, of course, they are working on the online side of things, and that offers far greater possibilities. and I think this will be the saving grace for TDV. the online side. because, and I'm not joking here, sighted players have been playing with, and against, their friends online, for over 15! years! lol. it's time we caught up. playing against a computer is one thing. it's mostly predictable. but playing against a human, is far more interesting, and replayable. I'm not saying that the devs out there aren't doing a good job with what they are making. I'm simply saying, it's time to bring these games up with the times, and at least provide online play. that solves a lot of the problems when it comes to predictable maps, and computer players. and truthfully, online play is what I look for. not how many times can I shoot x, y, z, computer player. that's, frankly, boring. However, as Thomas has said, the biggest problem, is to make a really good game, costs money. and most blind people will not pay such prices for a game. and I'm afraid it has less to do with whether or not they can afford it, it has more to do with, do they want to. I'd guess that most players, could afford one or two games of such prices, if they saved up for it. but they simply refuse to, and want the prices to be lower, expecting devs to get along with a very low income from the game that they have spent a huge amount of time on. and to those who say they really can't, well, I'm sorry. but, sighted players have to save up for a game too, you know. so get over it, and save up, and pay a normal price for a good game. we aren't the only ones that have low funds. yet sighted gamers manage to save up and buy one or two games as well. and to those who really can not afford it, I'm sorry. and I know how it feels. however, sighted people, if they can't afford a game, ... guess what? ... they don't buy it. they don't expect the game makers to say, oh, I'm sorry, here, I'll lower the cost just for you. no, the game makers simply can't. it costs to much to make the games. they can't afford to lower it. Hope this all made some kind of sense. lol. it's just that I've seen it way too often, and I'm guessing people like Thomas have seen the hole I can't afford that, thing come up again and again. as I have said. I am more then willing to throw a bit of money into a good game. but unfortunately, I think I'm one of the few. Dallas On 01/01/2014, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I agree mainstream console or pc games are much more expensive, at the same time audio games are actually about average for indi developed stuff at least on pc. Look at the smugglers games for 25 usd as an example, and for simpler arcade titles the price is far less, especialy for games without complex graphics or sound. I don't myself find audio game prices unreasonable, but equally as with lots of things I don't think mainstream comparisons to games that are sold in shops with tax and markup are reasonable either. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 1:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Hi Shaun: Well, you might be willing to pay $200 for a good game, but I am certainly not willing to spend that on a game. Any audio game regardless of the replay value. I suspect many other audio gamers would not either. However, as to the issue of cost you are right that many audio games are $30or less. However, that is actually much cheaper than a lot of mainstream games sell for. Just recently I was looking for some new games for my son's Wii U, and a lot of them were up around $40 or more. So we should consider ourselves lucky that Shades of Doom, Tank Commander, and Time of Conflict which are almost mainstream quality aren't as expensive as your average PC or console game. Cheers! On 12/31/13, Shaun Everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well there are exchane rates and the like to. I'd pay 200 for a game if I knew it would be good quality. Most games are 30 or so bucks unless its a pack. There have been a few acceptions ofcause. entombed and tdv being really large games actually are worth a lot more but even so. In the shops prices do drop as games get older, etc. I am not going to suggest we should drop our prices, but to be honest blind games really have not bar a few had really
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
well with the demise of xp and direct sound I do hope we will be able to do more with newer technologies. Ofcause each new stuff has its querks. fsl which uses open al echoes when away from objects and only sounds them right when you are right in front of them. You can't adjust music volumes all that well, and also, panning is nonexistant. Once a sound say is at its loudest it can go in your right or left ear you can jump. Sound does not gradually go in front of you but it will jump positions so if you were not watching it your pit could jump right in front of you. its something we will have to get used to. There is a lot of focus into editing sounds to. with something like fsl you don't need to have the sounds that good. Not that loud or soft but whatever. have them as mono, and they play. Or have them nice and loud and it matters not. I didn't know that open al was that powerfull till I began designing sounds for reality game studios. Its something the blind have never gone into. Its sertainly possible now to make a simple 3d fps by not doing much, most sound is calculated. What is geing done is quite simple but there is potentual. Things like hearing bullets wizzing buy and other things could be a reality. We have online games now and other such things. You can actually feel like you are in a game now. Saying that getting used to all the extra echo fx and tuning out only what is needed is a small issue. So far coordinates are used to find things and I rely on these a lot more than the sound since things will echo a lot but you get used to it and you will find it rather cool. At 11:45 PM 1/4/2014, you wrote: Hi: Yes, once again I find myself in agreement with Dallas. While it is certainly true audio is limiting to a point it doesn't mean that it has to be simplistic as it all too often tends to be with audio games. For example, one genre or style of games that is way over represented is the Space Invaders type arcade game. Just your basic 2d arcade game with ships falling or landing and you have to move left and right and shoot them out of the sky. That's alright as far as it goes, but the truth is we could do so much more with the game idea than has been done. One way is rather than a simple 2d game why not have a 3d arcade game where you fly a ship around a 3d grid up, down, left, right, forward, and backwards while shooting enemy spaceships. With libraries like OpenAL its entirely possible to do a pretty fair representation of your position in 3d space, and you would end up with a far more complex audio game. While still having a pretty cool arcade shoot-m-up. The thing is that so much more can be done with audio than has been tried or is being done, and while there are certainly times when a developer might not want a full on 3d audio environment it would greatly enhance many existing audio games just by adding some extra complexity to the game. Cheers! On 1/2/14, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: no shaun. we perhaps aren't mainstream. but yes, there its lots that can be done in sound. i agree, there are limits to sound over visual elements, but it actually doesn't have to be as simplistic as it currently tends to be. as for the online thing, well, i'm sorry, but if you look at the amount of people playing online, to the amount that don't, the online stuff is the thing now. agreed, there are those who don't. but generally, online play is where it's at now. dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Thomas, I have not played a main stream game since the mid eighties. So I have even less experience than you do. And it has been even longer since I played a main stream game. The games that I remember playing are Pole Position, Donkey Kong, Pong, Pacman, Space Invaders, Missile Command, baseball, football and bowling. BFN Jim Kitchen's Inc, for games that are up to 110 percent funner to play. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Shaun: OpenAL, the library FSL uses for audio, has many third-party extensions for many languages. There is Joal for Java, Pyopenal for Python, and OpenAL .NET for .NET languages. Those are just a few I can think of off the top of my head so you are by no means limited to C, C++, or Pure Basic. The echoing issue you speak of must be specific to FSL as that does not happen with any other implimentation of OpenAL I have tried. Remember I used it in MOTA beta 15 or beta 16 via SFML, and I did not have any issues with echoing on Windows 7. On 1/5/14, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with you on the sound front at least. Fsl is a powerfull language library for sound. however bar c and pure basic I have not seen a implimentation for other languages. True 3d sound is a step foreward, all effects are handled for the computer and buy the computer. win7 is needed for best results or higher as xp has issues rendering all sounds and all 3d fx right. win7 and up will also have echoing with environmental sounds a thing to get used to. Right now the games I do so far are walk round find things, fight a few monsters and go home but all sound is basically done by the computer. Its a step foreward. aslo on the online front there is hope with tdv, where you can verse online and buy time, packs and other customisations. I have never been the pay for online and downloadable content probably because I have never been one of those serious hard core play all day gamer types though my cousin does play online on his xbox and uses up bandwidth in loads, also buys and downloads a lot of dlc, but he is getting to be at least some of the time one of those hard core gamers. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Jim: Yeah, that is pretty limited experience alright. Although, those were some cool games for the time. I think I played all of those pretty regularly in the mid 80's. Although, I never did get very far with Donkey Kong. On 1/6/14, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Thomas, I have not played a main stream game since the mid eighties. So I have even less experience than you do. And it has been even longer since I played a main stream game. The games that I remember playing are Pole Position, Donkey Kong, Pong, Pacman, Space Invaders, Missile Command, baseball, football and bowling. BFN Jim Kitchen's Inc, for games that are up to 110 percent funner to play. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Pole Position was my favorite, and once i even qualified in the number 2 slot. As far as Donkey Kong, I could get to the third or fourth floor before I bit the dust. those hammers were quite nice. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . Also, check out, The Believer and Skeptic Show, at iTunes! If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 4:40 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Hi Jim: Yeah, that is pretty limited experience alright. Although, those were some cool games for the time. I think I played all of those pretty regularly in the mid 80's. Although, I never did get very far with Donkey Kong. On 1/6/14, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Thomas, I have not played a main stream game since the mid eighties. So I have even less experience than you do. And it has been even longer since I played a main stream game. The games that I remember playing are Pole Position, Donkey Kong, Pong, Pacman, Space Invaders, Missile Command, baseball, football and bowling. BFN Jim Kitchen's Inc, for games that are up to 110 percent funner to play. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi listers Minecraft itself was quite cheap, considering the price of 15 euros when I purchased it. But as those guys are actually pushing the limits of Java, the humble talking about accessibility of mine fell on deaf ears, but so long it's ok, my relatives are playing under my account and enjoying it immensely. Minecraft as a matter of fact doesn't even have a ton of sounds attached to it, if not talking about mods. The only thing that needs to be realised here is that I think we are coming to the point where people are not afraid any more having a 100x100 map layed out before them and navigating it if sufficient data is provided. David Greenwood with his T.O.T. managed to make a small incursion into the land of such big maps and I hope that when T.O.T. gets updated it gets much more into it. But this is generally more to speaking about the strategy games. Was there anything so difficult about mortal kombat? No. The answer is simple, the playroom is small, so moving is limited, but what really gave the game it's replayability was the intelligent AI and the fact that you needed to act fast as hell, thereby producing huge amounts of adrenaline. Mortal kombat was easily beatable by anyone without sight. Now coming to the new mortal kombats on consoles or the last one on pc, than the story modes and such puzzles would need some tweaks for those who can't see, but it's all a question of making it. At this point I would think it could be easier to program a game similar to minecraft or civilisation, because before civ4, even they didn't make heavy use of sounds and background music. Thousand thanks for reading with kind regards Dengo Jürgen --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Dengo: Thanks for this well worded post. You are right that Minecraft pushes Java gaming to the limits, and is relatively inexpensive compared to other mainstream games. Although, it is actually written by an indie developer and is pretty much comparable in price with other indie mainstream games. As far as accessibility goes I don't know the game well enough to make a surefire statement of how easy or how hard it would to be made accessible. As far as the game play itself goes sure I am certain we could do that easy enough. However, as for the world building that would probably require more experimentation, testing, and development. Cheers! On 1/6/14, Jürgen Dengo jyrgen.de...@gmail.com wrote: Hi listers Minecraft itself was quite cheap, considering the price of 15 euros when I purchased it. But as those guys are actually pushing the limits of Java, the humble talking about accessibility of mine fell on deaf ears, but so long it's ok, my relatives are playing under my account and enjoying it immensely. Minecraft as a matter of fact doesn't even have a ton of sounds attached to it, if not talking about mods. The only thing that needs to be realised here is that I think we are coming to the point where people are not afraid any more having a 100x100 map layed out before them and navigating it if sufficient data is provided. David Greenwood with his T.O.T. managed to make a small incursion into the land of such big maps and I hope that when T.O.T. gets updated it gets much more into it. But this is generally more to speaking about the strategy games. Was there anything so difficult about mortal kombat? No. The answer is simple, the playroom is small, so moving is limited, but what really gave the game it's replayability was the intelligent AI and the fact that you needed to act fast as hell, thereby producing huge amounts of adrenaline. Mortal kombat was easily beatable by anyone without sight. Now coming to the new mortal kombats on consoles or the last one on pc, than the story modes and such puzzles would need some tweaks for those who can't see, but it's all a question of making it. At this point I would think it could be easier to program a game similar to minecraft or civilisation, because before civ4, even they didn't make heavy use of sounds and background music. Thousand thanks for reading with kind regards Dengo Jürgen --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
it comes to predictable maps, and computer players. and truthfully, online play is what I look for. not how many times can I shoot x, y, z, computer player. that's, frankly, boring. However, as Thomas has said, the biggest problem, is to make a really good game, costs money. and most blind people will not pay such prices for a game. and I'm afraid it has less to do with whether or not they can afford it, it has more to do with, do they want to. I'd guess that most players, could afford one or two games of such prices, if they saved up for it. but they simply refuse to, and want the prices to be lower, expecting devs to get along with a very low income from the game that they have spent a huge amount of time on. and to those who say they really can't, well, I'm sorry. but, sighted players have to save up for a game too, you know. so get over it, and save up, and pay a normal price for a good game. we aren't the only ones that have low funds. yet sighted gamers manage to save up and buy one or two games as well. and to those who really can not afford it, I'm sorry. and I know how it feels. however, sighted people, if they can't afford a game, ... guess what? ... they don't buy it. they don't expect the game makers to say, oh, I'm sorry, here, I'll lower the cost just for you. no, the game makers simply can't. it costs to much to make the games. they can't afford to lower it. Hope this all made some kind of sense. lol. it's just that I've seen it way too often, and I'm guessing people like Thomas have seen the hole I can't afford that, thing come up again and again. as I have said. I am more then willing to throw a bit of money into a good game. but unfortunately, I think I'm one of the few. Dallas On 01/01/2014, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I agree mainstream console or pc games are much more expensive, at the same time audio games are actually about average for indi developed stuff at least on pc. Look at the smugglers games for 25 usd as an example, and for simpler arcade titles the price is far less, especialy for games without complex graphics or sound. I don't myself find audio game prices unreasonable, but equally as with lots of things I don't think mainstream comparisons to games that are sold in shops with tax and markup are reasonable either. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 1:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Hi Shaun: Well, you might be willing to pay $200 for a good game, but I am certainly not willing to spend that on a game. Any audio game regardless of the replay value. I suspect many other audio gamers would not either. However, as to the issue of cost you are right that many audio games are $30or less. However, that is actually much cheaper than a lot of mainstream games sell for. Just recently I was looking for some new games for my son's Wii U, and a lot of them were up around $40 or more. So we should consider ourselves lucky that Shades of Doom, Tank Commander, and Time of Conflict which are almost mainstream quality aren't as expensive as your average PC or console game. Cheers! On 12/31/13, Shaun Everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well there are exchane rates and the like to. I'd pay 200 for a game if I knew it would be good quality. Most games are 30 or so bucks unless its a pack. There have been a few acceptions ofcause. entombed and tdv being really large games actually are worth a lot more but even so. In the shops prices do drop as games get older, etc. I am not going to suggest we should drop our prices, but to be honest blind games really have not bar a few had really good replay value. Even shades of doom for me after I played it several times I only do every so often. And for a lot of games you get used to how things will be. Even in the games I am helping with even with the real sound engine that is used you do know where things are. Stuff like entombed or tdv well there is a lot of random things to. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi: Yes, once again I find myself in agreement with Dallas. While it is certainly true audio is limiting to a point it doesn't mean that it has to be simplistic as it all too often tends to be with audio games. For example, one genre or style of games that is way over represented is the Space Invaders type arcade game. Just your basic 2d arcade game with ships falling or landing and you have to move left and right and shoot them out of the sky. That's alright as far as it goes, but the truth is we could do so much more with the game idea than has been done. One way is rather than a simple 2d game why not have a 3d arcade game where you fly a ship around a 3d grid up, down, left, right, forward, and backwards while shooting enemy spaceships. With libraries like OpenAL its entirely possible to do a pretty fair representation of your position in 3d space, and you would end up with a far more complex audio game. While still having a pretty cool arcade shoot-m-up. The thing is that so much more can be done with audio than has been tried or is being done, and while there are certainly times when a developer might not want a full on 3d audio environment it would greatly enhance many existing audio games just by adding some extra complexity to the game. Cheers! On 1/2/14, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: no shaun. we perhaps aren't mainstream. but yes, there its lots that can be done in sound. i agree, there are limits to sound over visual elements, but it actually doesn't have to be as simplistic as it currently tends to be. as for the online thing, well, i'm sorry, but if you look at the amount of people playing online, to the amount that don't, the online stuff is the thing now. agreed, there are those who don't. but generally, online play is where it's at now. dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Dark: Well, I certainly see where you are going with this, and you definitely have raised some good points. However, I find myself inescapably coming back to the issue of know-how and experience. Both of which may be lacking from a lot of our audio game developers. Let's start with the issue of experience. I've been listening to you suggest a number of suggestions based on your experience with Super Mario, Super Metroid, Megaman, etc. They are all good ideas accept the average blind gamer, and I suspect many blind game developers, has never picked up and played one of those games in their life. Therefore you have something they do not, and that is experience. You can't expect someone who has never played a mainstream game like Mario Brothers to come up with equivalent game mechanics etc unless they themselves have some experience to compare it too. In fact, I personally use to play many games from the Atari, NES, and Super NES era and many of the suggestions had not occurred to me until you brought them up. I know that might sound strange considering I have some experience, some history with mainstream games, but the fact still remains that at the time I played those games I was basically a kid and I didn't think about how this or that game worked. All I cared about was playing it and the mechanics meant nothing to me at the time. Now, twenty-some years later I am trying to think back how this or that worked and don't clearly remember specific details like how high or far Mario could jump. At the time details like that were simply unimportant so I wasn't paying attention to things like that. Which brings me to another point. While experience is important it also helps depending on how current that experience is. I take it you play mainstream games fairly regularly and I would not at all be surprised you have played them in the last year or so. That's a completely different situation from someone like myself who went blind in the mid 90's and haven't play said games for the last twenty years. So while I generally know what you are talking about when you remind me of them in one of your e-mails I don't necessarily recall those things when I am home alone working on some game or another. Take for instance the differences between Mario and Luiji in Mario Brothers. To be honest it has been so long since I played the game that I didn't even know there was a difference in how the game handled those two characters. I would have assumed, wrongly of course, that the mechanics were the same for both characters , and the primary reason was I have forgotten the specific differences in how each character moves, jumps, and handles over all. So without a reminder such as yours I am afraid my experience doesn't mean much in the scheme of things, because it has been too long since I have played a game with those sorts of game mechanics. The other important issue is know-how. By know-how I am not just talking programming, but some basic understanding of mathematics and physics. If someone isn't very good with math or physics then chances are they will implement some rudimentary game mechanics absent of physics. Therefore if you run, jump, whatever instead of sliding to a stop, decelerating, etc you just stop because the game developer doesn't have the mathematical know-how to implement a better more realistic system. ¿Still, you are right. It would be nice to see more advanced design mechanics, different types of enemies, a greater variety of enemy types, etc. I think the only solution is if people such as yourself e-mail the various game developers with your suggestions, thoughts, and concerns and make them aware of what they can do to improve game x. After all, if they are unaware of how a similar mainstream game would implement this or that they can't attempt it in their audio game. On 1/2/14, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Well Tom, while I agree an understandable lack of experience might be behind the changes, at the same time there are some very basic things which could be done to improve the players interaction with a game. One example is character movement. In a game like shades, you move at a fixed speed, turn at a fixed speed etc. One of the hardest things in Super marrio brothers is simply the act of jumping, since marrio's jumps require handling and marrio's walking and running speeds both have different accelleration, much like a car in a racing game. You can see this when playing as Luiji, who's over all hight and distance are greater but who's handling is worse. yet I've not seen an audio game use this sort of character handling to enhance difficulty. Even when audio games feature two movement speeds such as walking and running, stopping is instantanius and jump mechanics are pretty stable. The second is environment. Most audio games happen on a flat plane, either a mostly 1 dimentional strip, or a 2D area seen in the first person. Yet, even a game like original marrio had far
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Tom. I recognize the experience issue, which is precisely why I try to analyse the factors which make a game like marrio brothers, (simple though it is), more addictive and entertaining to play than a game like Q9, and then analise these factors in detail so that my experience is at least sshared. I do still certainly play mainstream games, indeed I've just reconnected my megadrive (genesis), this morning and was having a bash at streets of rage 2, however as an adult I can break that experience down and analyse it, and then share my thoughts which I do hope are helpful. Regarding mathematics, well that is a good point, though perhaps that is an area where experienced programers could offer some explanation. For example, I do not precisely know the relative walking speeds, jump hights or stopping distances of characters in any game, and thus can only guess at the numbers (2.5 marrio hights is only a rough guess). perhaps however, since the physics is not at rock bottom that complex, someone who does have that understanding such as yourself or che martin could write some information that other programmers could examine, since it'd make a major difference to an audio game just to get this factor sorted out. Imagine a 1D side scroller like Q9, but with knockback when hit, analogue jumps and correct accelleration. You'd have something miles harder, without including any new tricks of viewpoint or methods of conveying information in audio. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Well Tom, while I agree an understandable lack of experience might be behind the changes, at the same time there are some very basic things which could be done to improve the players interaction with a game. One example is character movement. In a game like shades, you move at a fixed speed, turn at a fixed speed etc. One of the hardest things in Super marrio brothers is simply the act of jumping, since marrio's jumps require handling and marrio's walking and running speeds both have different accelleration, much like a car in a racing game. You can see this when playing as Luiji, who's over all hight and distance are greater but who's handling is worse. yet I've not seen an audio game use this sort of character handling to enhance difficulty. Even when audio games feature two movement speeds such as walking and running, stopping is instantanius and jump mechanics are pretty stable. The second is environment. Most audio games happen on a flat plane, either a mostly 1 dimentional strip, or a 2D area seen in the first person. Yet, even a game like original marrio had far more to play with in this respect. Marrio could jump approximately two and a half times his own hight, and the screen was roughly 6 marrio hights high, with each level being very very long (I don't know the precise distance inved but I'd guess it's somewhere in the region of 500 Mario standing spaces). This gave lots of room for environmemntal hazards and puzzles which, when combined with character handling made even the land scape difficult, indeed in some games, prince of persia, ice climbers and not a few sections of MEga man negotiating the land scape itself could proove a hazard. I have seen some approaches to this, such as the pits in some side scrollers, but not really anything that had a complexity which affected character movement, indeed probably the most difficult pure landscape puzzle I can think of is the second plane jumping level of Jim Kitchin's awsome homer game, since that rquired judging of position of two ledges and tracking character jumps, though even again you didn't have movement independent of the ledge. Of course, lack of vertical audio view restricts this somewhat, but at the same time, thereis more that could be done. Swamp has started this with the maps for buildings and the different surfaces, but more could be done, eg, surfaces that affect the players' walking speed, or objects that provide degrees of cover from enemies (the bushes did this in Gma tank commander but again this was just one factor). The third factor is enemy design and behaviour. Even in original marrio brothers which has perhaps 10 sorts of over land enemy (and that is counting the flame bars and shooting podobu fireballs and counting the two different sorts of cooper para troopers separately), most enemies had something different about them, not just altered movement speed and hp. For example, the green cooper trooper had the same walking speed as a goomba, however knocking it on the head made it retreat into it's shell, and the shell could be kicked across the screen which could be either a good thing, (when taking out enemies behind it), or a bad thing, since you could risk kicking the shell into a block behind and having it rebound and hit marrio. Indeed, it's not surprising the shell sort of became Marrio's weapon of choice in future games in the series. I've not seen an audio game enemy with this sort of behavioural interaction with either the environment, or with the players acts upon it. This would be simple to add, say for example that the cyborgs in shades of doom rather than just dying exploded in a large explosion, meaning that you had to kill them at a distance. Then of course, there is the fact of enemy behaviour itself. In Metroid 2 Return of Samus, the ost common bosses were alpha metroids. Their only attack was running straight into Samus directly. What however made them challenging was that since Samus could only fire in four directions, the metroids had a nasty habbit of attacking at diagonals, meaning the player always had to be on the move. that brings me onto a last factor, character weapons. I've noticed in audio games with a few exceptions such as the Gma tank commander shell, the sniper scope in Swamp or torpedos in Zero site or Lone wolf, weapons tend to all hit instantly and do a fixed amount of damage. yet, one simple way is to change the hit properties, meaning that a player needs to anticipate enemy movement in order to nale them. Another is to alter rate of fire, rather than having a weapon instantly activate everytime the player hits the button, have some cool down so that the player doesn't just hammer the button constantly, but needs to wait for the enemy to be in range, attack, and then re adjust for the next attack since she/he can't attack constantly. This was certainly true with missiles in the first two metroid games
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Tom. While I agree mainstream console or pc games are much more expensive, at the same time audio games are actually about average for indi developed stuff at least on pc. Look at the smugglers games for 25 usd as an example, and for simpler arcade titles the price is far less, especialy for games without complex graphics or sound. I don't myself find audio game prices unreasonable, but equally as with lots of things I don't think mainstream comparisons to games that are sold in shops with tax and markup are reasonable either. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 1:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Hi Shaun: Well, you might be willing to pay $200 for a good game, but I am certainly not willing to spend that on a game. Any audio game regardless of the replay value. I suspect many other audio gamers would not either. However, as to the issue of cost you are right that many audio games are $30or less. However, that is actually much cheaper than a lot of mainstream games sell for. Just recently I was looking for some new games for my son's Wii U, and a lot of them were up around $40 or more. So we should consider ourselves lucky that Shades of Doom, Tank Commander, and Time of Conflict which are almost mainstream quality aren't as expensive as your average PC or console game. Cheers! On 12/31/13, Shaun Everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well there are exchane rates and the like to. I'd pay 200 for a game if I knew it would be good quality. Most games are 30 or so bucks unless its a pack. There have been a few acceptions ofcause. entombed and tdv being really large games actually are worth a lot more but even so. In the shops prices do drop as games get older, etc. I am not going to suggest we should drop our prices, but to be honest blind games really have not bar a few had really good replay value. Even shades of doom for me after I played it several times I only do every so often. And for a lot of games you get used to how things will be. Even in the games I am helping with even with the real sound engine that is used you do know where things are. Stuff like entombed or tdv well there is a lot of random things to. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
for a game too, you know. so get over it, and save up, and pay a normal price for a good game. we aren't the only ones that have low funds. yet sighted gamers manage to save up and buy one or two games as well. and to those who really can not afford it, I'm sorry. and I know how it feels. however, sighted people, if they can't afford a game, ... guess what? ... they don't buy it. they don't expect the game makers to say, oh, I'm sorry, here, I'll lower the cost just for you. no, the game makers simply can't. it costs to much to make the games. they can't afford to lower it. Hope this all made some kind of sense. lol. it's just that I've seen it way too often, and I'm guessing people like Thomas have seen the hole I can't afford that, thing come up again and again. as I have said. I am more then willing to throw a bit of money into a good game. but unfortunately, I think I'm one of the few. Dallas On 01/01/2014, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I agree mainstream console or pc games are much more expensive, at the same time audio games are actually about average for indi developed stuff at least on pc. Look at the smugglers games for 25 usd as an example, and for simpler arcade titles the price is far less, especialy for games without complex graphics or sound. I don't myself find audio game prices unreasonable, but equally as with lots of things I don't think mainstream comparisons to games that are sold in shops with tax and markup are reasonable either. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 1:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Hi Shaun: Well, you might be willing to pay $200 for a good game, but I am certainly not willing to spend that on a game. Any audio game regardless of the replay value. I suspect many other audio gamers would not either. However, as to the issue of cost you are right that many audio games are $30or less. However, that is actually much cheaper than a lot of mainstream games sell for. Just recently I was looking for some new games for my son's Wii U, and a lot of them were up around $40 or more. So we should consider ourselves lucky that Shades of Doom, Tank Commander, and Time of Conflict which are almost mainstream quality aren't as expensive as your average PC or console game. Cheers! On 12/31/13, Shaun Everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well there are exchane rates and the like to. I'd pay 200 for a game if I knew it would be good quality. Most games are 30 or so bucks unless its a pack. There have been a few acceptions ofcause. entombed and tdv being really large games actually are worth a lot more but even so. In the shops prices do drop as games get older, etc. I am not going to suggest we should drop our prices, but to be honest blind games really have not bar a few had really good replay value. Even shades of doom for me after I played it several times I only do every so often. And for a lot of games you get used to how things will be. Even in the games I am helping with even with the real sound engine that is used you do know where things are. Stuff like entombed or tdv well there is a lot of random things to. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Dark: That is true. Our prices for audio games are more or less what one would pay for an average indie developed game for PC or Mac. However, that is sort of missing the point. The basic point was compared to a lot of mainstream games, by that big name games for console and PC, our games are over all cheaper than most. Plus indie games tend to be less complex, less in depth, in some ways to big name console games. I suppose one reason console games are so expensive is you are also paying for the physical media such as the DV D or blue ray disk it is burned on, and a printed manual which jacks up the price. Most indie games are sold online and are downloadable which cuts out the cost for physical media and printed manuals thus cutting costs. Cheers! On 1/1/14, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I agree mainstream console or pc games are much more expensive, at the same time audio games are actually about average for indi developed stuff at least on pc. Look at the smugglers games for 25 usd as an example, and for simpler arcade titles the price is far less, especialy for games without complex graphics or sound. I don't myself find audio game prices unreasonable, but equally as with lots of things I don't think mainstream comparisons to games that are sold in shops with tax and markup are reasonable either. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Dallas: That is quite true. the majority of accessible games aren't on par with mainstream games, and those that are tend to be on par with mainstream games 20 to 30 years ago. Certainly not on par with anything more recent. What you say about random levels etc is also true. What makes audio games so uninteresting, lacks replay value, is even a relatively good game like Shades of Doom or Tank Commander are too static. Once you know your way around the levels, have beaten the game once or twice, it looses its replay value. Where as if a game had random mazes, random levels, it would have unlimited replay value because in some sense it would be a new game each and every time for the player. Plus as you pointed out a number of mainstream game developers even indie developers make money off of selling game packs. Unfortunately, as happens all to often in the audio games community game x is released and besides minor updates like bug fixes there aren't any new levels, extra weapons, or anything else to really continue interest in said game. It is just what you see is what you get. The only developer that has tried something like this is Draconis. They had Pinball Extreme, and then the Pinball Extreme Party Pack. I think they could have done more with that idea, and maybe they will. However, we frankly need more games that can be expanded and have add-ons the way Pinball Extreme did. Many mainstream games such as Minecraft are in constant development and there is new content coming out all the time. I don't see why we can't do so with audio games too since it is easier to create an add-on than an entirely new game from scratch. Cheers! On 1/1/14, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: ahh yes, but we are forgetting one thing here. I am sorry to the devs out there, but most games we have, are no! where, near, main stream. it's just a fact. so yes, we pay about what sighted people do. but the replay ability of a game they buy, tends to be miles higher. how ever, as has already been stated, the audio game creators, are making games for a limited market. I think this is why audio games on iPhone have taken off, partly because it's not just us that play them. so the market is larger. so a 5 dollar purchase for their games, may seem like a relatively low amount to us, but the amount of purchases they get, makes that price quite effective. now, as for an example given earlier, lets take tank commander. you say this is nearly main stream? I say, not even close. I mean, just 7 or 8 levels? most tank games you get out there, even for free! have like, thousands of levels. let alone the fact that the games are fairly graphically intense, they have huge replay ability, because of random map creation, random things happening, and so on. so in stead of having level 1 being one map, and you know it all the time, you might start the game, and yes, you'd be on level 1, but the map would be different every time. small things like that, make things far more interesting, and replayable. having the same map over and over, makes it way too easy for people to know exactly how to get through that level. makes it more interesting if there is some kind of randomness to it. sure, make it so that you start on the south side, and you have to make it to the north side somewhere to level up, ... but other then that, the map in between is random, and you really don't know what you will be coming up against. so in stead of full speed ahead, you'd have to be more careful, and investigate the area you are working through. so on and so forth. there are many reasons why things like tank commander and other such games, are not replayable past a certain point. and of course, the other options for game devs, is to bring out a game at a nice low price, and yes, you'd be able to play it, and it's a full game in and of itself, but perhaps they could sell packs that add functions to it, or adds new weapons / enemies, and so on. and perhaps each pack would only cost maybe 5 bucks. lets say the game also costs 5 bucks. if those packs add new functions, I'd be buying the packs. now lets say I have had tank commander for a year. well? so what. I've already beat it, and it's useless to me. now lets say that David came out with a pack, an add-on, that would add another 50 levels. or new weapons to my tank. new enemies I have to fight, random effects happening to my tank to bring me to a standstill while I repair it, ... so on. that would drastically increase the replay ability of the game. right now, tank commander is useless to me, as I have completed it. and, mind you, it took me all of 3 days to complete. so, was the price really worth it? not really. but that's what we have to deal with at the moment. and it really doesn't have to be that way. even if we don't quite work the same way as mainstream, games shouldn't have just a few levels, and that's it. specially when the price is up over
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Well I only get on average of 2 games a year maybe 3 and not often. I got tdv and entumbed, at that time 40 bucks for entombed was at least 60 and tdv about the same with the taxes and stuff when it came it ended up as at least 75 dollars each. I don't have that kind of cash. I struggle to upgrade my equipment only doing so when I need to. Some of it is funded, some of it is from presents. Some of the stuff I get is from departed family members. But its never secure. Family incomes change and I may not be as free as I once was. I doubt vary much that I will be able to replace this new win7/8 box vary soon. and if I do it may be the last thing I do actually replace so I have to be carefull. At 08:50 a.m. 1/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Dallas: That's definitely a good point. Since the majority of blind gamers are on fixed incomes like SSI, SSDI, and similar government disability incomes they don't want to spend a great deal of money on audio games. That's understandable, but it is also crippling when it comes to producing top notch games for the blind. Asking about $50 for a really good audio game isn't out of line considering the amount of work that goes into a game like Call of Duty or Minecraft not to mention the sounds, music, and voice acting is also fairly expensive too. The problem weather the game is worth that or not I am guessing most blind gamers won't pay it. They'd rather quibble about the price or will outright pirate the game because it is always easier to steel someone's hard work than it is to pay the developer what he or she is owed for producing that high quality game. What they don't realize or particularly consider is that if they truly want a Call of Duty game or something like Minecraft they are going to have to be willing to pay a bit more than they do now to have such a game created. Not just for the developer's time and energy, which would be considerable, but sound libraries, the game's musical score, and voice acting aren't cheap either. Some people might get by using volunteer work, but in my opinion that is sort of hit and miss and unreliable. Volunteer work for sounds, music, and voice acting is probably alright for a low budget game but for something truly professionally done it requires the hire end professional work done by experts who do that stuff for a living. However, if the money isn't in it from the community then a developer isn't going to go that extra mile to use top notch quality sounds, music, and acting which is really a disservice to the game. Cheers! On 12/31/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi. it's not only that Thomas, the question has to be begged. how much are people willing to pay for such games? i mean, if they think they are cheap in the sighted world, think again. call of duty, every time a new one comes out, is like, 50 bucks. or more. lol. so i mean, at the least, you'd have to charge 50 to 100 for such a game, to even begin to pay yourself back for all the work you do alone. now personally, if you were to make such a game, like minecraft, or something similar, or perhaps call of duty, i'd lay down 50 bucks for it. no problems. as long as it's high quality, and has huge replayability, i'd go for it for sure. but most people in the blind community won't pay that much. hell, they quibble over 10 bucks for a game on iOS. lol. so what do you imagine they'd do if you suddenly came out with, oh, i have a new game guys. .. by the way, that'll be 50 dollars, please. lol. they'd shy away from that to be sure. so from that point of view alone, let alone the facter of much fewer, gamers in the audio games community to create for, puts a damper on major game creation. not that i am saying don't do such a thing, but i can see where it's hard for you guys. you have to live, after all. that tends to cost money, and lots of it. specially these days. lol. Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
well, shaun, i'm afraid then, you may have to go without games. i mean, what's more important. living, or gaming. lol. i know a lot of sighted people who game, and that can't always afford the new game that has just come out, and have to go without, untill it's either gifted to them, or has come down in price. the blind community is just way too used to the idea that they, as a low income group, should be getting ?X, Y, Z, program / game for cheap, or for free. sorry, but we are hardly the only ones on a low income. i am on a low income. and i have managed to once again, pay for flights over to england. so, it's possible. you just need to save up, or learn to go without things untill you can afford them. Dallas On 01/01/2014, Shaun Everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well I only get on average of 2 games a year maybe 3 and not often. I got tdv and entumbed, at that time 40 bucks for entombed was at least 60 and tdv about the same with the taxes and stuff when it came it ended up as at least 75 dollars each. I don't have that kind of cash. I struggle to upgrade my equipment only doing so when I need to. Some of it is funded, some of it is from presents. Some of the stuff I get is from departed family members. But its never secure. Family incomes change and I may not be as free as I once was. I doubt vary much that I will be able to replace this new win7/8 box vary soon. and if I do it may be the last thing I do actually replace so I have to be carefull. At 08:50 a.m. 1/01/2014, you wrote: Hi Dallas: That's definitely a good point. Since the majority of blind gamers are on fixed incomes like SSI, SSDI, and similar government disability incomes they don't want to spend a great deal of money on audio games. That's understandable, but it is also crippling when it comes to producing top notch games for the blind. Asking about $50 for a really good audio game isn't out of line considering the amount of work that goes into a game like Call of Duty or Minecraft not to mention the sounds, music, and voice acting is also fairly expensive too. The problem weather the game is worth that or not I am guessing most blind gamers won't pay it. They'd rather quibble about the price or will outright pirate the game because it is always easier to steel someone's hard work than it is to pay the developer what he or she is owed for producing that high quality game. What they don't realize or particularly consider is that if they truly want a Call of Duty game or something like Minecraft they are going to have to be willing to pay a bit more than they do now to have such a game created. Not just for the developer's time and energy, which would be considerable, but sound libraries, the game's musical score, and voice acting aren't cheap either. Some people might get by using volunteer work, but in my opinion that is sort of hit and miss and unreliable. Volunteer work for sounds, music, and voice acting is probably alright for a low budget game but for something truly professionally done it requires the hire end professional work done by experts who do that stuff for a living. However, if the money isn't in it from the community then a developer isn't going to go that extra mile to use top notch quality sounds, music, and acting which is really a disservice to the game. Cheers! On 12/31/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi. it's not only that Thomas, the question has to be begged. how much are people willing to pay for such games? i mean, if they think they are cheap in the sighted world, think again. call of duty, every time a new one comes out, is like, 50 bucks. or more. lol. so i mean, at the least, you'd have to charge 50 to 100 for such a game, to even begin to pay yourself back for all the work you do alone. now personally, if you were to make such a game, like minecraft, or something similar, or perhaps call of duty, i'd lay down 50 bucks for it. no problems. as long as it's high quality, and has huge replayability, i'd go for it for sure. but most people in the blind community won't pay that much. hell, they quibble over 10 bucks for a game on iOS. lol. so what do you imagine they'd do if you suddenly came out with, oh, i have a new game guys. .. by the way, that'll be 50 dollars, please. lol. they'd shy away from that to be sure. so from that point of view alone, let alone the facter of much fewer, gamers in the audio games community to create for, puts a damper on major game creation. not that i am saying don't do such a thing, but i can see where it's hard for you guys. you have to live, after all. that tends to cost money, and lots of it. specially these days. lol. Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Tom. I agree that both addons and random content would be good, though Draconis isn't the only audio game developer who have tried this, look at Zero site and the addon for the game (an addon which actually adds randomly generating missions). I will say however there is another serious factor in audio games which removes replay value. There are mainstream games like super metroid ormega man x that I have played innumerable times, know where every item is etc, yet I find I replay them far more than something like shades or Gma tank commander, and a game like Marrio brothers I am still! going back to occasionally just to see if I can finish the levels I've not done yet. When I ask myself what makes a game like marrio brothers more replayable than something like Shades, the answer I come up with is design mechanics. One faq writer (brian sulpher, who's name gamefaqs devotees may recognize), once said of the game Donkey Kong Country 2 on the snes something like even though I've been through this game hundreds of times, I find myself being surprised by enemies, needing to really practice to get past a boss or being taken by surprise (it's in his dkc2 faq if people want to check). This to me is part of the appeal of mechanically well designed games, that they have a game engine nd mechanics which are like a sport or a musical instrument. They require the player not merely to learn and react to stimulai, but to train her/his reflexes up to a point that the character movement and engine are mentally ingraned. This is one arguement I've heard from retro gamers as well, that games these days are easier because they require less split second judgement in the game. Some audio games have of course come close to this sort of mechanic, particularly games like lone wolf or swamp, however many haven't. though I regard Shades of doom as a completely well designed game, once you know where monsters are and can turn and attack them quickly your pretty much through. There is no need for example to adjust to the way your own character moves,to assess monster movements in different areas, or to allow weapon fire time to hit a given monster. this is because fundamentally with the lack of information available in audio most of the games have worked on a stimulus response model, and also why most of the audio games I find myself replaying and being surprised by are not action titles but games like castaways, time of conflict or entombed that do not basically require the players reflexes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
up for it. but they simply refuse to, and want the prices to be lower, expecting devs to get along with a very low income from the game that they have spent a huge amount of time on. and to those who say they really can't, well, I'm sorry. but, sighted players have to save up for a game too, you know. so get over it, and save up, and pay a normal price for a good game. we aren't the only ones that have low funds. yet sighted gamers manage to save up and buy one or two games as well. and to those who really can not afford it, I'm sorry. and I know how it feels. however, sighted people, if they can't afford a game, ... guess what? ... they don't buy it. they don't expect the game makers to say, oh, I'm sorry, here, I'll lower the cost just for you. no, the game makers simply can't. it costs to much to make the games. they can't afford to lower it. Hope this all made some kind of sense. lol. it's just that I've seen it way too often, and I'm guessing people like Thomas have seen the hole I can't afford that, thing come up again and again. as I have said. I am more then willing to throw a bit of money into a good game. but unfortunately, I think I'm one of the few. Dallas On 01/01/2014, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. While I agree mainstream console or pc games are much more expensive, at the same time audio games are actually about average for indi developed stuff at least on pc. Look at the smugglers games for 25 usd as an example, and for simpler arcade titles the price is far less, especialy for games without complex graphics or sound. I don't myself find audio game prices unreasonable, but equally as with lots of things I don't think mainstream comparisons to games that are sold in shops with tax and markup are reasonable either. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 1:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Hi Shaun: Well, you might be willing to pay $200 for a good game, but I am certainly not willing to spend that on a game. Any audio game regardless of the replay value. I suspect many other audio gamers would not either. However, as to the issue of cost you are right that many audio games are $30or less. However, that is actually much cheaper than a lot of mainstream games sell for. Just recently I was looking for some new games for my son's Wii U, and a lot of them were up around $40 or more. So we should consider ourselves lucky that Shades of Doom, Tank Commander, and Time of Conflict which are almost mainstream quality aren't as expensive as your average PC or console game. Cheers! On 12/31/13, Shaun Everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well there are exchane rates and the like to. I'd pay 200 for a game if I knew it would be good quality. Most games are 30 or so bucks unless its a pack. There have been a few acceptions ofcause. entombed and tdv being really large games actually are worth a lot more but even so. In the shops prices do drop as games get older, etc. I am not going to suggest we should drop our prices, but to be honest blind games really have not bar a few had really good replay value. Even shades of doom for me after I played it several times I only do every so often. And for a lot of games you get used to how things will be. Even in the games I am helping with even with the real sound engine that is used you do know where things are. Stuff like entombed or tdv well there is a lot of random things to. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Dark: To be honest I have never tried Zero Site, but I take your point. I guess others have tried creating random levels/missions, and of course a number of accessible games do have add-ons of one kind or another. Lone Wolf has about a hundred extra missions besides those that ship with the game, Rail Racer had a track editor and various user created tracks, and of course Top Speed had a number of user created add-ons as well. However, you are right. A lot of replay value and challenge comes from good design mechanics. That's precisely where a lot of audio game developers are very weak. Most of them are very amateur programmers at best, and even worse many of them have never played a mainstream game themselves so have no idea how to compare their work to a game like Super Metroid or Megaman. They just don't have the prerequisite experience to judge such a thing themselves. Even for those of us who have played such games aren't necessarily able to come up with some design mechanics as good as those in some mainstream games. I am not saying it can't be done, it certainly can, only that I have a college education, took classes on computer programming, but I was never given a crash course in designing game mechanics. I've read some game programming books, of course, but those examples were simple examples to illustrate a point rather than to educate the new programmer how to truly get the same design mechanics of Mario Brothers, Megaman, Metroid, or any other classic game. I guess it is left up to the developer to figure that out on his or her own. The point I'm getting at here is a educational one. There are plenty of people willing to make audio games, and although they try they just don't know enough to create a game as good as some other mainstream games you find more challenging and more competitive. Not sure what the answer is, but I think that is a fair assessment of the problem. On 1/1/14, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I agree that both addons and random content would be good, though Draconis isn't the only audio game developer who have tried this, look at Zero site and the addon for the game (an addon which actually adds randomly generating missions). I will say however there is another serious factor in audio games which removes replay value. There are mainstream games like super metroid ormega man x that I have played innumerable times, know where every item is etc, yet I find I replay them far more than something like shades or Gma tank commander, and a game like Marrio brothers I am still! going back to occasionally just to see if I can finish the levels I've not done yet. When I ask myself what makes a game like marrio brothers more replayable than something like Shades, the answer I come up with is design mechanics. One faq writer (brian sulpher, who's name gamefaqs devotees may recognize), once said of the game Donkey Kong Country 2 on the snes something like even though I've been through this game hundreds of times, I find myself being surprised by enemies, needing to really practice to get past a boss or being taken by surprise (it's in his dkc2 faq if people want to check). This to me is part of the appeal of mechanically well designed games, that they have a game engine nd mechanics which are like a sport or a musical instrument. They require the player not merely to learn and react to stimulai, but to train her/his reflexes up to a point that the character movement and engine are mentally ingraned. This is one arguement I've heard from retro gamers as well, that games these days are easier because they require less split second judgement in the game. Some audio games have of course come close to this sort of mechanic, particularly games like lone wolf or swamp, however many haven't. though I regard Shades of doom as a completely well designed game, once you know where monsters are and can turn and attack them quickly your pretty much through. There is no need for example to adjust to the way your own character moves,to assess monster movements in different areas, or to allow weapon fire time to hit a given monster. this is because fundamentally with the lack of information available in audio most of the games have worked on a stimulus response model, and also why most of the audio games I find myself replaying and being surprised by are not action titles but games like castaways, time of conflict or entombed that do not basically require the players reflexes. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Darren. Game editers for 2D maps are fine, howeve rht eproblem with minecraft is that what is done is essntially closer to painting or building abstractly, rather like using virtual lego bricks in a 3D space. While i can quite imagine some sort of 2D sim building game, that sort of visual, virtual control of objects in space is just not something I can imagine having access too, not at least without some major changes in technology anyway. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, December 30, 2013 4:54 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Hi Tom, Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't any game world regardless of game no more than a map? Assuming that is the case, could we not just have like a map editor in the game? Four example you can have various selections. You would choose, whether you would have a 10 x 10 grid orate 100 x 100 great. Then you would choose various terrain types. Good something along those lines not work? Sent from my iPhone On 30 Dec 2013, at 16:38, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Michael: No, so far as I know there is nothing accessible remotely close to Mindcraft. Besides I'm not sure how one would go about making a game like that accessible given that it is highly visual. One aspect of the game is constructing your own worlds using textured cubes in a 3d procedurally generated environment. Meaning besides gathering resources, combat, etc a key component of the game is drawing your own game worlds and playing in them. I don't see how we could do that and make it accessible. Cheers! On 12/30/13, michael barnes c...@samobile.net wrote: Hello. I have notice that everybody that I know is playing this very popular game call MindCraft. I would like to give this game a play, but sadly enough I am not able because I am blind. So I am wondering if there is an accessible version of the game, or a game simular to it? Thanks! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Myself, before minecraft, which seems to be as much about visual appeal and artistic creation of structures as it is the sim resource gathering and civilization building, I'd rather see a serious colonization and civilization game such as dwarf fortress of the type we've been discussing on list for a while. Castaways and time of conflict both gave some ideas of how such a game might be designed, it's just now a question of a developer putting time and trouble into such a project. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Dark: Thanks for that explanation. I was trying to think of a way to convey the reason why a 2d map editor wouldn't work, and your's is the best way to put it. As you said the 3d cubes are a bit like using virtual legos to build a 3d world. You can drag and drop them where you want them with the mouse or game controller, and that is more like drawing or painting rather than using a map editor. The closest thing that would work for a game like this is something like the defunked Audio Games Maker where you would drag and drop game objects around on the grid and drop them where you want them. Accept with AGM it only dealt with a 2d world rather than a 3d FPS environment. Cheers! On 12/31/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Darren. Game editers for 2D maps are fine, howeve rht eproblem with minecraft is that what is done is essntially closer to painting or building abstractly, rather like using virtual lego bricks in a 3D space. While i can quite imagine some sort of 2D sim building game, that sort of visual, virtual control of objects in space is just not something I can imagine having access too, not at least without some major changes in technology anyway. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Dallas: That's definitely a good point. Since the majority of blind gamers are on fixed incomes like SSI, SSDI, and similar government disability incomes they don't want to spend a great deal of money on audio games. That's understandable, but it is also crippling when it comes to producing top notch games for the blind. Asking about $50 for a really good audio game isn't out of line considering the amount of work that goes into a game like Call of Duty or Minecraft not to mention the sounds, music, and voice acting is also fairly expensive too. The problem weather the game is worth that or not I am guessing most blind gamers won't pay it. They'd rather quibble about the price or will outright pirate the game because it is always easier to steel someone's hard work than it is to pay the developer what he or she is owed for producing that high quality game. What they don't realize or particularly consider is that if they truly want a Call of Duty game or something like Minecraft they are going to have to be willing to pay a bit more than they do now to have such a game created. Not just for the developer's time and energy, which would be considerable, but sound libraries, the game's musical score, and voice acting aren't cheap either. Some people might get by using volunteer work, but in my opinion that is sort of hit and miss and unreliable. Volunteer work for sounds, music, and voice acting is probably alright for a low budget game but for something truly professionally done it requires the hire end professional work done by experts who do that stuff for a living. However, if the money isn't in it from the community then a developer isn't going to go that extra mile to use top notch quality sounds, music, and acting which is really a disservice to the game. Cheers! On 12/31/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi. it's not only that Thomas, the question has to be begged. how much are people willing to pay for such games? i mean, if they think they are cheap in the sighted world, think again. call of duty, every time a new one comes out, is like, 50 bucks. or more. lol. so i mean, at the least, you'd have to charge 50 to 100 for such a game, to even begin to pay yourself back for all the work you do alone. now personally, if you were to make such a game, like minecraft, or something similar, or perhaps call of duty, i'd lay down 50 bucks for it. no problems. as long as it's high quality, and has huge replayability, i'd go for it for sure. but most people in the blind community won't pay that much. hell, they quibble over 10 bucks for a game on iOS. lol. so what do you imagine they'd do if you suddenly came out with, oh, i have a new game guys. .. by the way, that'll be 50 dollars, please. lol. they'd shy away from that to be sure. so from that point of view alone, let alone the facter of much fewer, gamers in the audio games community to create for, puts a damper on major game creation. not that i am saying don't do such a thing, but i can see where it's hard for you guys. you have to live, after all. that tends to cost money, and lots of it. specially these days. lol. Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
HI Thomas and all; Let me just present once again and ad infinitum actually, ;) the example of Audio Quake. There is a level design language associated with AQ which allows blind and visually impaired players to design / create their own maps which can then be used in the game. Since the game can be played by sighted players as they are used to playing it as well as blind players in an accessible format, the idea that there is accessible and inaccessible and never the twain shall meet is one which has its days numbered in my admittedly hopeful view. :) Thanks and super happy new year to you all! Smiles, Cara :). --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 30, 2013, at 2:50 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all: I find myself in full agreement with Dennis on this issue. Minecraft is an FPS game, but the way it is designed it would take a massive rewrite to make it accessible and by doing so it would largely change the game for everyone involved. This is a case where someone would be better off taking away the relevant concepts and writing their own game rather than trying to make Minecraft itself accessible. Cheers! On 12/30/13, Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com wrote: Charles, There is no effective way to make minecraft blind accessible without changing the game into something entirely different. A good way to think about it is to compare swamp to the original unreal tournament; they are both FPS games, but that is where the similarity ends. There is no way whatsoever for a visually impaired person to be competitive in UT, and no way to change it to make it so without destroying the game. Don't bug the developer. You'd be better off grabbing the relevant concepts and trying to make a new game from the ground up. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Thomas, the Audio Quake level design I mentioned earlier is accomplished with an XML parser so it is platform independent. Yes, this type of access may be out of the 'norm' of a mainstream game for the moment, but it is definitely doable. Smiles, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 30, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Charles: Makes sense. Although, perhaps you should have checked Wikipedia or something about the game before suggesting Michael contact the developers as Minecraft is a fairly complex game and while I think a game similar to it in concept can be made accessible I know of no effective way to make the actual game itself accessible. Especially, considering it has been ported to many different platforms from Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS, and the XBox to name a few. With greater cross-platform support the more difficult it is to add accessibility because the access for each platform is different and ranges from very good to absolutely none. Cheers! On 12/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: I think the fault was mine. I think that, usually, when you come across a game that is not playable by blind people, your first step would be to contact the developer, explain the problem, and maybe give suggestions on the solution. Michael has asked questions on the list that had very simple solutions if he had looked just a bit farther, or that he would have been able to resolve by applying the obvious first steps. I saw his post about this game, and it was just like all of the others. No details are given about what his problem is. I had not heard of the game, and he said nothing about it other than the fact that a blind person cannot play it and he wants to. I sent my post based on the fact that he probably had not done the obvious before asking list members. That was my mistake. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Kara. audio quake is a great example of what can be done, however one thing that struck me about the game when I played it is that access would only work in specifically designed maps. I did deathmatch with some bots and tried your starwars mod, however when I tried to play the main quake game I found it wasn't possible with the access tools. This might have been me I don't know. So, while I perfectly agree with you that holding a black and white scale of accessibility is a bad idea, at the same time there do seem to be limitations even when very successful access tools are created for a game. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Well there are exchane rates and the like to. I'd pay 200 for a game if I knew it would be good quality. Most games are 30 or so bucks unless its a pack. There have been a few acceptions ofcause. entombed and tdv being really large games actually are worth a lot more but even so. In the shops prices do drop as games get older, etc. I am not going to suggest we should drop our prices, but to be honest blind games really have not bar a few had really good replay value. Even shades of doom for me after I played it several times I only do every so often. And for a lot of games you get used to how things will be. Even in the games I am helping with even with the real sound engine that is used you do know where things are. Stuff like entombed or tdv well there is a lot of random things to. At 08:21 p.m. 31/12/2013, you wrote: hi. it's not only that Thomas, the question has to be begged. how much are people willing to pay for such games? i mean, if they think they are cheap in the sighted world, think again. call of duty, every time a new one comes out, is like, 50 bucks. or more. lol. so i mean, at the least, you'd have to charge 50 to 100 for such a game, to even begin to pay yourself back for all the work you do alone. now personally, if you were to make such a game, like minecraft, or something similar, or perhaps call of duty, i'd lay down 50 bucks for it. no problems. as long as it's high quality, and has huge replayability, i'd go for it for sure. but most people in the blind community won't pay that much. hell, they quibble over 10 bucks for a game on iOS. lol. so what do you imagine they'd do if you suddenly came out with, oh, i have a new game guys. .. by the way, that'll be 50 dollars, please. lol. they'd shy away from that to be sure. so from that point of view alone, let alone the facter of much fewer, gamers in the audio games community to create for, puts a damper on major game creation. not that i am saying don't do such a thing, but i can see where it's hard for you guys. you have to live, after all. that tends to cost money, and lots of it. specially these days. lol. Dallas On 31/12/2013, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Mike: I think the principle problem is time. A game of any serious complexity takes time that people either don't have to begin with, or they could spend that time working on two or three smaller projects instead of one very complex one. I'm sure I have the skills to write something like Minecraft, Call of Duty, etc, but I simply don't have the time right now to put in to a game of that complexity. I'd say that there are plenty of other audio game developers that similarly are unable to do anything that complex do to time constraints as well. I know when I started USA Games I had all kinds of game ideas of doing something like the mainstream. Basically, converting all of my favorite mainstream games into audio games. The reality is that while it is a nice idea I don't have all day every day to spend working on those ideas, to work on programming said games, and that is what it might take to bring some very complex audio games into existence. Plus the reality is that even if I did spend a couple of years slaving to create such a game I wouldn't make much money off of it. I'd be better off creating an actual video game and selling it to the general market than slaving for the audio games community. Cheers! On 12/30/13, Mike Reiser mikereise...@gmail.com wrote: Hopefully someone will consider making a game like that. I personally am tired of the usual stuff we get, and would like to see some out-of-the-box thinking. For example, I really want to see a call of duty type of game. Or something like Rise son of Rome. I'm not saying that it's easy of course, as I know nothing of development. I just would like to see us catch up with the mainstream in terms of game titles. And game types. Another example I think would be a game similar to something called world of tanks. I saw a commercial for that's this weekend, and really wish I could play. Mike --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Shaun: Well, you might be willing to pay $200 for a good game, but I am certainly not willing to spend that on a game. Any audio game regardless of the replay value. I suspect many other audio gamers would not either. However, as to the issue of cost you are right that many audio games are $30or less. However, that is actually much cheaper than a lot of mainstream games sell for. Just recently I was looking for some new games for my son's Wii U, and a lot of them were up around $40 or more. So we should consider ourselves lucky that Shades of Doom, Tank Commander, and Time of Conflict which are almost mainstream quality aren't as expensive as your average PC or console game. Cheers! On 12/31/13, Shaun Everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well there are exchane rates and the like to. I'd pay 200 for a game if I knew it would be good quality. Most games are 30 or so bucks unless its a pack. There have been a few acceptions ofcause. entombed and tdv being really large games actually are worth a lot more but even so. In the shops prices do drop as games get older, etc. I am not going to suggest we should drop our prices, but to be honest blind games really have not bar a few had really good replay value. Even shades of doom for me after I played it several times I only do every so often. And for a lot of games you get used to how things will be. Even in the games I am helping with even with the real sound engine that is used you do know where things are. Stuff like entombed or tdv well there is a lot of random things to. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Cara: Yeah, I am aware of the xml parser you speak of. I've looked at the Audio Quake source and design in the past. Although, that is a bit of a different idea as to how Minecraft works which is really my point earlier on in the thread. Minecraft has a number of 3d cubes, think of them as virtual Lego blocks, that you can drag and drop on the screen with the joystick and mouse to build stuff. There presently is not any accessible way to do something like this in audio that I know of as it is more like drawing rather than coding. Does that make sense? Discussing level editors, parsers, etc are all good ideas. All possibilities, but not the same thing in concept as to how Minecraft actually works which is the issue here. Cheers! On 12/31/13, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote: Hi Thomas, the Audio Quake level design I mentioned earlier is accomplished with an XML parser so it is platform independent. Yes, this type of access may be out of the 'norm' of a mainstream game for the moment, but it is definitely doable. Smiles, Cara :) --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Cara: I have a lot of respect for Audio Quake, and the work you and others have done on it, but I feel as though you are comparing apples to oranges and calling them equal. Yes, I am aware that there is a level design language in Audio Quake that allows a V.I. gamer to design his or her own levels, but that is a totally different concept than the one Minecraft uses which is really the issue here. In Minecraft, as I understand it, it doesn't have a level editor, level design language, or anything like that. Instead you are presented with 3d cubes, world objects, which you drag around and build mountains, trees, rivers, etc. the issue here is that I am not sure that we, as blind users, can have a tool equal to that where we drag and drop level building blocks around the screen with the mouse, resize them, fit them together, etc the way a sighted user does. Yeah, we might be able to replace that functionality with a parser, a design language, but already you are adding complexity to something that is fairly simple for a sighted gamer to do with his/her mouse or joystick just by pointing and clicking. Does that make sense? I guess the issue here has less to do with accessibility than practicality. There is now doubt you or I could create a game with a level parser, a map editor, where someone codes the levels by hand, but can we make a tool that works exactly as well as the graphical tools where people drag and drop world objects with the mouse and can resize them etc by clicking on them? Cheers! On 12/31/13, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote: HI Thomas and all; Let me just present once again and ad infinitum actually, ;) the example of Audio Quake. There is a level design language associated with AQ which allows blind and visually impaired players to design / create their own maps which can then be used in the game. Since the game can be played by sighted players as they are used to playing it as well as blind players in an accessible format, the idea that there is accessible and inaccessible and never the twain shall meet is one which has its days numbered in my admittedly hopeful view. :) Thanks and super happy new year to you all! Smiles, Cara :). --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hey. I made a mistake it's call Minecraft. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi. The only thing I've found that's even remotely similar is Revelation. In that one, you combine two items to create other items. -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of michael barnes Sent: Monday, December 30, 2013 11:15 AM To: gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Hello. I have notice that everybody that I know is playing this very popular game call MindCraft. I would like to give this game a play, but sadly enough I am not able because I am blind. So I am wondering if there is an accessible version of the game, or a game simular to it? Thanks! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Michael: No, so far as I know there is nothing accessible remotely close to Mindcraft. Besides I'm not sure how one would go about making a game like that accessible given that it is highly visual. One aspect of the game is constructing your own worlds using textured cubes in a 3d procedurally generated environment. Meaning besides gathering resources, combat, etc a key component of the game is drawing your own game worlds and playing in them. I don't see how we could do that and make it accessible. Cheers! On 12/30/13, michael barnes c...@samobile.net wrote: Hello. I have notice that everybody that I know is playing this very popular game call MindCraft. I would like to give this game a play, but sadly enough I am not able because I am blind. So I am wondering if there is an accessible version of the game, or a game simular to it? Thanks! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Tom, Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't any game world regardless of game no more than a map? Assuming that is the case, could we not just have like a map editor in the game? Four example you can have various selections. You would choose, whether you would have a 10 x 10 grid orate 100 x 100 great. Then you would choose various terrain types. Good something along those lines not work? Sent from my iPhone On 30 Dec 2013, at 16:38, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Michael: No, so far as I know there is nothing accessible remotely close to Mindcraft. Besides I'm not sure how one would go about making a game like that accessible given that it is highly visual. One aspect of the game is constructing your own worlds using textured cubes in a 3d procedurally generated environment. Meaning besides gathering resources, combat, etc a key component of the game is drawing your own game worlds and playing in them. I don't see how we could do that and make it accessible. Cheers! On 12/30/13, michael barnes c...@samobile.net wrote: Hello. I have notice that everybody that I know is playing this very popular game call MindCraft. I would like to give this game a play, but sadly enough I am not able because I am blind. So I am wondering if there is an accessible version of the game, or a game simular to it? Thanks! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Have you contacted the developer and given the reasons that a blind person cannot play the game, and suggestions on how the game can be made accessible? --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: michael barnes c...@samobile.net To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, December 30, 2013 10:15 AM Subject: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Hello. I have notice that everybody that I know is playing this very popular game call MindCraft. I would like to give this game a play, but sadly enough I am not able because I am blind. So I am wondering if there is an accessible version of the game, or a game simular to it? Thanks! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Charles, There is no effective way to make minecraft blind accessible without changing the game into something entirely different. A good way to think about it is to compare swamp to the original unreal tournament; they are both FPS games, but that is where the similarity ends. There is no way whatsoever for a visually impaired person to be competitive in UT, and no way to change it to make it so without destroying the game. Don't bug the developer. You'd be better off grabbing the relevant concepts and trying to make a new game from the ground up. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Have you contacted the developer and given the reasons that a blind person cannot play the game, and suggestions on how the game can be made accessible? --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: michael barnes c...@samobile.net To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, December 30, 2013 10:15 AM Subject: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Hello. I have notice that everybody that I know is playing this very popular game call MindCraft. I would like to give this game a play, but sadly enough I am not able because I am blind. So I am wondering if there is an accessible version of the game, or a game simular to it? Thanks! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi all: I find myself in full agreement with Dennis on this issue. Minecraft is an FPS game, but the way it is designed it would take a massive rewrite to make it accessible and by doing so it would largely change the game for everyone involved. This is a case where someone would be better off taking away the relevant concepts and writing their own game rather than trying to make Minecraft itself accessible. Cheers! On 12/30/13, Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com wrote: Charles, There is no effective way to make minecraft blind accessible without changing the game into something entirely different. A good way to think about it is to compare swamp to the original unreal tournament; they are both FPS games, but that is where the similarity ends. There is no way whatsoever for a visually impaired person to be competitive in UT, and no way to change it to make it so without destroying the game. Don't bug the developer. You'd be better off grabbing the relevant concepts and trying to make a new game from the ground up. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
I think the fault was mine. I think that, usually, when you come across a game that is not playable by blind people, your first step would be to contact the developer, explain the problem, and maybe give suggestions on the solution. Michael has asked questions on the list that had very simple solutions if he had looked just a bit farther, or that he would have been able to resolve by applying the obvious first steps. I saw his post about this game, and it was just like all of the others. No details are given about what his problem is. I had not heard of the game, and he said nothing about it other than the fact that a blind person cannot play it and he wants to. I sent my post based on the fact that he probably had not done the obvious before asking list members. That was my mistake. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, December 30, 2013 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Charles, There is no effective way to make minecraft blind accessible without changing the game into something entirely different. A good way to think about it is to compare swamp to the original unreal tournament; they are both FPS games, but that is where the similarity ends. There is no way whatsoever for a visually impaired person to be competitive in UT, and no way to change it to make it so without destroying the game. Don't bug the developer. You'd be better off grabbing the relevant concepts and trying to make a new game from the ground up. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Have you contacted the developer and given the reasons that a blind person cannot play the game, and suggestions on how the game can be made accessible? --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: michael barnes c...@samobile.net To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, December 30, 2013 10:15 AM Subject: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Hello. I have notice that everybody that I know is playing this very popular game call MindCraft. I would like to give this game a play, but sadly enough I am not able because I am blind. So I am wondering if there is an accessible version of the game, or a game simular to it? Thanks! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Darren: Not for something like Minecraft. Minecraft has a very huge game world, and something like a 10x10 grid or even something as large as 100x100 isn't big enough for the game world. In Minecraft the game's over world contains various types of terrain and areas such as forests, deserts, mountains, etc on what I assume to be a very large grid. I suppose in theory a level editor would be possible, but it would be a lot more complex than just dragging and dropping the various elements of the game world on the grid. I'd have to put more thought into a project like that. I am sure something like Minecraft is doable, but it would have to be done differently from the mainstream version. It is a fairly complex game where you gather resources like wood, stone, ore, etc and then craft tools and weapons. You can build houses and other structures while trying to fend off giant spiders, skeletons, zombies, and other monsters. In short, it is a complex piece of software to write and even more complex to make fully accessible. Cheers! On 12/30/13, Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote: Hi Tom, Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't any game world regardless of game no more than a map? Assuming that is the case, could we not just have like a map editor in the game? Four example you can have various selections. You would choose, whether you would have a 10 x 10 grid orate 100 x 100 great. Then you would choose various terrain types. Good something along those lines not work? Sent from my iPhone --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Charles: Makes sense. Although, perhaps you should have checked Wikipedia or something about the game before suggesting Michael contact the developers as Minecraft is a fairly complex game and while I think a game similar to it in concept can be made accessible I know of no effective way to make the actual game itself accessible. Especially, considering it has been ported to many different platforms from Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS, and the XBox to name a few. With greater cross-platform support the more difficult it is to add accessibility because the access for each platform is different and ranges from very good to absolutely none. Cheers! On 12/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: I think the fault was mine. I think that, usually, when you come across a game that is not playable by blind people, your first step would be to contact the developer, explain the problem, and maybe give suggestions on the solution. Michael has asked questions on the list that had very simple solutions if he had looked just a bit farther, or that he would have been able to resolve by applying the obvious first steps. I saw his post about this game, and it was just like all of the others. No details are given about what his problem is. I had not heard of the game, and he said nothing about it other than the fact that a blind person cannot play it and he wants to. I sent my post based on the fact that he probably had not done the obvious before asking list members. That was my mistake. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
You're absolutely right. I blowed it. Heh heh heh. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, December 30, 2013 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind. Hi Charles: Makes sense. Although, perhaps you should have checked Wikipedia or something about the game before suggesting Michael contact the developers as Minecraft is a fairly complex game and while I think a game similar to it in concept can be made accessible I know of no effective way to make the actual game itself accessible. Especially, considering it has been ported to many different platforms from Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS, and the XBox to name a few. With greater cross-platform support the more difficult it is to add accessibility because the access for each platform is different and ranges from very good to absolutely none. Cheers! On 12/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: I think the fault was mine. I think that, usually, when you come across a game that is not playable by blind people, your first step would be to contact the developer, explain the problem, and maybe give suggestions on the solution. Michael has asked questions on the list that had very simple solutions if he had looked just a bit farther, or that he would have been able to resolve by applying the obvious first steps. I saw his post about this game, and it was just like all of the others. No details are given about what his problem is. I had not heard of the game, and he said nothing about it other than the fact that a blind person cannot play it and he wants to. I sent my post based on the fact that he probably had not done the obvious before asking list members. That was my mistake. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hopefully someone will consider making a game like that. I personally am tired of the usual stuff we get, and would like to see some out-of-the-box thinking. For example, I really want to see a call of duty type of game. Or something like Rise son of Rome. I'm not saying that it's easy of course, as I know nothing of development. I just would like to see us catch up with the mainstream in terms of game titles. And game types. Another example I think would be a game similar to something called world of tanks. I saw a commercial for that's this weekend, and really wish I could play. Mike On Dec 30, 2013, at 4:24 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Darren: Not for something like Minecraft. Minecraft has a very huge game world, and something like a 10x10 grid or even something as large as 100x100 isn't big enough for the game world. In Minecraft the game's over world contains various types of terrain and areas such as forests, deserts, mountains, etc on what I assume to be a very large grid. I suppose in theory a level editor would be possible, but it would be a lot more complex than just dragging and dropping the various elements of the game world on the grid. I'd have to put more thought into a project like that. I am sure something like Minecraft is doable, but it would have to be done differently from the mainstream version. It is a fairly complex game where you gather resources like wood, stone, ore, etc and then craft tools and weapons. You can build houses and other structures while trying to fend off giant spiders, skeletons, zombies, and other monsters. In short, it is a complex piece of software to write and even more complex to make fully accessible. Cheers! On 12/30/13, Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote: Hi Tom, Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't any game world regardless of game no more than a map? Assuming that is the case, could we not just have like a map editor in the game? Four example you can have various selections. You would choose, whether you would have a 10 x 10 grid orate 100 x 100 great. Then you would choose various terrain types. Good something along those lines not work? Sent from my iPhone --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MindCraft for the blind.
Hi Mike: I think the principle problem is time. A game of any serious complexity takes time that people either don't have to begin with, or they could spend that time working on two or three smaller projects instead of one very complex one. I'm sure I have the skills to write something like Minecraft, Call of Duty, etc, but I simply don't have the time right now to put in to a game of that complexity. I'd say that there are plenty of other audio game developers that similarly are unable to do anything that complex do to time constraints as well. I know when I started USA Games I had all kinds of game ideas of doing something like the mainstream. Basically, converting all of my favorite mainstream games into audio games. The reality is that while it is a nice idea I don't have all day every day to spend working on those ideas, to work on programming said games, and that is what it might take to bring some very complex audio games into existence. Plus the reality is that even if I did spend a couple of years slaving to create such a game I wouldn't make much money off of it. I'd be better off creating an actual video game and selling it to the general market than slaving for the audio games community. Cheers! On 12/30/13, Mike Reiser mikereise...@gmail.com wrote: Hopefully someone will consider making a game like that. I personally am tired of the usual stuff we get, and would like to see some out-of-the-box thinking. For example, I really want to see a call of duty type of game. Or something like Rise son of Rome. I'm not saying that it's easy of course, as I know nothing of development. I just would like to see us catch up with the mainstream in terms of game titles. And game types. Another example I think would be a game similar to something called world of tanks. I saw a commercial for that's this weekend, and really wish I could play. Mike --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
