Re: ASPizer
Endre Stølsvik at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is | now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a | number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost. So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How incredibly smart of you. Think about the synergies between Tomcat and Jboss!!! Wow! Incredible. It was an incredible smart move indeed... I am still happy we didn't make it happen... The two kinds of communities were (and still are) too different, would have been a big clash... Were you (Jon) the front figure in that rejection too, hurling shit in every direction, handing out your minus one before knowing what you were talking about? Actually, Jon was pro... Me and Stefano were against since we didn't like Mark Fleury... Before JBoss moved over to SourceForge (before SourceForge even existed) Jon was hosting all their CVS and mailing lists... It's just that Jakarta seems to be accepting and rejecting according to what you - the *main* man - want.. Actually, not... The list of people is here http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html under the PMC section... But given that we're working together since a vry long time (some of us since 97), 90% of the times we simply agree on most topics... Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
Tim Vernum at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you know that JBoss would have worked within Jakarta? Simply, it wouldn't have... We would have been stuck in a very long flamewar forever :) That's why Jboss is not @ Jakarta... Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Pier Fumagalli wrote: | Were you (Jon) the front figure in that rejection too, hurling shit in | every direction, handing out your minus one before knowing what you were | talking about? | | Actually, Jon was pro... I've understood this by now, I kind of just threw that out there.. Just for the fun of it. Didn't hit.. To bad.. | Me and Stefano were against since we didn't like Mark Fleury... Before | JBoss moved over to SourceForge (before SourceForge even existed) Jon | was hosting all their CVS and mailing lists... I'm just thinking that Jakarta having a full-fledged J2EE environment would have been really _really_ cool. But apparently not. People hate each other too much. How sad. ;-D | | It's just that Jakarta seems to be accepting and rejecting according to | what you - the *main* man - want.. | | Actually, not... The list of people is here | http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html under the PMC section... But | given that we're working together since a vry long time (some of us | since 97), 90% of the times we simply agree on most topics... Sounds like a nice, open structure, always glad and happy for new thoughts, ideas and ways of doing things. -- Mvh, Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
* Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | I'm just thinking that Jakarta having a full-fledged J2EE environment | would have been really _really_ cool. | | But apparently not. People hate each other too much. How sad. The jakarta process is not right for everybody and it is not the end of the world if we have other successfull projects. Linux, PostgreSQL, JBoss, MySQL, Perl, X, etc. If you don't fit the requirements of Jakarta, why try to force it ? People are different and there should be room for different styles of development. Dictatorship type ala MySQL and Linux wouldn't fit very well with Jakarta. -- Gunnar Rønning - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Consultant, Polygnosis AS, http://www.polygnosis.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:56, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Tim Vernum at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you know that JBoss would have worked within Jakarta? Simply, it wouldn't have... We would have been stuck in a very long flamewar forever :) That's why Jboss is not @ Jakarta... Oh good - so it wasn't just me ... ;) -- Cheers, Pete *---* PROGRAM: n. a magic spell cast over a computer allowing it to turn one's input into error messages. v.t. to engage in a pastime similar to banging one's head against a wall, but with fewer opportunities for reward. *---* - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:09, Endre Stølsvik wrote: | Me and Stefano were against since we didn't like Mark Fleury... Before | JBoss moved over to SourceForge (before SourceForge even existed) Jon | was hosting all their CVS and mailing lists... I'm just thinking that Jakarta having a full-fledged J2EE environment would have been really _really_ cool. But apparently not. People hate each other too much. How sad. One really kool and very good technically project you may want to look at is OpenEJB. Thats a project I would love to see at Apache and I think the two main developers are Apache-esque ;) -- Cheers, Pete Artists can color the sky red because they know it's blue. Those of us who aren't artists must color things the way they really are or people might think we're stupid. -- Jules Feiffer - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:52, Sam Ruby wrote: Endre Stlsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds like a nice, open structure, always glad and happy for new thoughts, ideas and ways of doing things. Do I detect a bit of sarcasm in there? Speaking as a relative newcomer (the entire JBoss discussion predated my involement, for example). who now is the chair of the PMC: introducing new thoughts, ideas, and ways of doing things is most definately possible. I've had my own agenda, but I started by understanding and contributing to the codebases that I wanted to influence first. In other words, I became part of the community. I tried another technique - I complained loudly and often about things ;) For instance a while back, the process of project proposals was done on a private list. I complained because it wasn't open and it got changed ;) Annoying people can be an effective convincing method if non-aggresive. Consider gump and it's mail-outs - that uses the same technique - ant it is relatively effective ;) (BTW Sam - have we ever had a clean build yet ?) -- Cheers, Pete *--* | Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want | | to test a man's character, give him power. | | -Abraham Lincoln | *--* - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
Peter Donald wrote: (BTW Sam - have we ever had a clean build yet ?) I've gotten real close. All Apache projects compiling clean, just one non-Apache project failing... One really kool and very good technically project you may want to look at is OpenEJB. Thats a project I would love to see at Apache and I think the two main developers are Apache-esque ;) That's the one. http://openejb.exolab.org/list-archive/msg01404.html It's a one line patch. Forward and backward compatible. Not even acknowledged. Of course, now it is moot as their Tyrex bretheren keep reintroducing calls to long since deprecated and now removed methods in log4j. Of course, the original reason that I added Tyrex in the first place is to support Tomcat 4.0, but the class that Tomcat 4.0 depends on were removed seven months ago... It's like herding cats, I tell ya. ;-) - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gülcü wrote: | At 22:21 17.10.2001 +0200, Endre Stølsvik wrote: | On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote: | | | As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his | | observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more. | |Why not just package things just a little bit nicer? Or just whatever? | | Be a bit more polite? Be, you know, nice to people? Especially to people | | he even doesn't know.. | | | | I rather relate to a person who is direct than someone who always | | appears to be nice. | | Jon's last post is just so very much better. Why not start with something | like that? It's still pretty direct, but in a much nicer, somewhat | diplomatic way. | | I just cannot understand how you can justify such extreme rudeness!? | | What extreme rudeness? Jon justifiably told Ranjit Mathew that Jakarta | was not a dumping ground. Well, I actually replied to the whole post, just quoting his first line, which indeed was rude. The whole attitude in that mail was hostile and ugly, LOLing at the guys roduct. | He also outlined that unlikely promises were not good enough. While | one may criticize his direct style, Jakarta is not a popularity | contest. Right. I definately gotten that. I've always regarded you as a wellbalanced person, seeing things in an objective way. How would you like to get Jon all over you when you came here with your log4j? | | On the other hand, how do you qualify calling Jon an asshole? Unless you were | referring to the usefulness of that body part in evacuating shit, your name calling | constitutes extreme rudeness in itself. Your subsequent comments were not | much better either. Well, I tried at least to a bit more explainatory there. But I guess my own rudeness shined through anyways... | The only one being rude in this forum is you. Ceki Right. Jon's a nice, happy, soft, unrude dude. Me, on the other hand, is really an asshole. I feel that the Jakarta's acceptance policy is totally fuzzy, accepting way to much if you ask me. But that doesn't justify rudeness towards newish people on the list. I just don't care much more, but getting such emails hurled against you when you for the first time is inquiring about whether a open source living ground would like to accept your project is not fair. Again. Have lots of fun. -- Mvh, Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
| The thing is that most people who do open source work do it for the | fun/satisfaction of the thing, and engaging in debates with someone who | truly speaks their mind and only compliments your work when its worth | complimenting helps out with that fun/satisfaction thing. I agree. That's not Jon you're talking about, though. His coding performance and knowledge I'm not questioning at all. It's his non-coding behaviour I am having a problem with. I guess the bottom line is that coders have feelings too! Burried somewhere deep inside them.. And Jon is kind of digging them up, and squashing them.. That's the psychoanalyzis for today.. ;) -- Mvh, Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
From: Endre Stølsvik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How incredibly smart of you. Ah yes, the incredible science of predicting alternative realities. How do you know that JBoss would have worked within Jakarta? Maybe the JBoss developers would have clashed with the culture here, and stopped working. It is possible that JBoss is doing well *because* it is a separate project, outside of the ASF. Regardless, I don't think people have lost out. JBoss exists, people can use it. What would have been gained by making it part of Jakarta? Think about the synergies between Tomcat and Jboss!!! Wow! Incredible. You can find synergies anywhere you want. It doesn't mean that the project is a good fit at Jakarta. It's just that Jakarta seems to be accepting and rejecting according to what you - the *main* man - want.. I would hardly call Jon the main man. But he is a member of the PMC which means he gets a vote. And his vote carries no more weight than anyone else's. You really seem to have some personal issues with Jon, how about you take them offline. We all know that Jon tends to be blunt and has a knack for offending people. I believe that Jakarta would be better served if he toned it down. But endless discussions on this list are not going to change anything. The Apache projects are meritocracies, people have influence based on their contributions. Jon has contributed a lot and that is why he is an ASF member. This is how apache works - deal with it. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
Dear All, It's somewhat sad that this discussion has degenerated into a flamefest, rife with personal attacks and orificial metaphors. It's sadder still, Jon, that you quote Paul almost verbatim in your document New Project Proposals (http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html) and put several not-so-obvious-to-a-newbie references to this thread into the document. Anyway, let me first clarify that THBS is primarily a consulting company and intends to remain so. Our strengths have been in middleware technologies, especially with J2EE based AppServers. Do take a look at http://www.thbs.com/ for more information. In several of our assignments, we face certain recurring problems (as I'm sure most of you also do) that are best solved by developing solutions that solve a class of these problems. These scratch-the-itch solutions, mature over time to the point where we feel they can be of use to others. Take a look at: http://www.thbs.com/ivalue/ivalue1.html for more information on some of these. For example, a real-life WebApp needs much more than what is offered by an AppServer: a general WebApp needs to keep track of its users and their profiles, ensure that only authorised users are able to access its functions, keep track of its usage so that it can charge users, etc. Add to this the fact that as the site grows, you'd probably want to add more servers for load-balancing or failovers, introduce new rate-plans for different kinds of customers - some might be willing to pay more for a better QoS, modify your user profile schemata, add more WebApps to your site, be able easily manage the whole setup through a single point, etc. This is exactly the class of problems that ASPizer set out to solve - at the time we started on this, ASPs were the most visible and greatest beneficiaries of such a solution. This was certainly the case for our first customer HumBiz (http://www.humbiz.com/). We see a trend within large enterprises of moving their Intranet/MIS applications to the WebApp/J2EE model, where this solution would be directly applicable. Thus the name ASPizer is somewhat of a misnomer now. If anyone would like to know how this can directly benefit WebApp developers, I can send the ASPizer Programming Guide (48KB/ZIPped-HTML) to them. Or other documentation for that matter. Coming to the issues raised in Jon's document and elsewhere on this thread, I must tell you that this has been a closed-source project so far with no external developer community to speak of. It is still being actively developed and improved upon though, and as Paul points out, will be for quite some time to come. We sincerely feel that the J2EE developer community will definitely benefit from such a solution. The itches that bothered us in our assignments are certainly those that are faced by most J2EE developers and sooner or later there will appear appropriate scratches - here or elsewhere. Why not use this as a starting point rather than starting from scratch? (Unintended pun!) A case in point being WebOBlocks that we developed around 1.5 years ago for creating reusable WebApp components based on MVC - there are several approaches now, even in the OSS world, that are quite similar to that - dare I say even within the Jakarta project (Struts/Turbine[partly]/etc.). No, that was not intended as a :-P - I just think that we as developers should try to get rid of our NIH afflictions and try to reuse and share as much of our code as possible - only then can we get out of the tar-pit that is WebApp development as it is today. Wasn't that the whole point of starting the Jakarta project? 'nuff said. Sincerely Yours, Ranjit. -- Ranjit MathewE-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member (Technical Staff),Phone: +91-80-209 75 11/12/13 Torry Harris Business Solutions, Fax:+91-80-226 84 42 Bangalore, INDIA.http://www.torryharris.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
At 08:48 18.10.2001 +0200, you wrote: | Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is | now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a | number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost. So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How incredibly smart of you. Think about the synergies between Tomcat and Jboss!!! Wow! Incredible. and you think Jon is politically incorrect! Have you been on the JBoss lists? -- Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch Link of the day: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40473-2001Oct10.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
on 10/18/01 12:18 AM, Ranjit Mathew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's sadder still, Jon, that you quote Paul almost verbatim in your document New Project Proposals (http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html) and #1. It is a quote made in a public forum. #2. I also used a quote from Sam and several other references to other conversations today. #3. What exactly is the problem with quoting him? put several not-so-obvious-to-a-newbie references to this thread into the document. Removed. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
Title: RE: ASPizer Hi Paul! -Mensaje original- De: Paul Ilechko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Enviado el: jueves 18 de octubre de 2001 0:43 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: RE: ASPizer How can you commit to backing a project over the long term if your company can't get funding? When your company goes out of business, what interest will you have in developing this project over the long term? We have a viable consulting company, and we make money. The product development is something we have done when we see a need in the market, but we have no reliance on income from it. We had hoped to sell ASPizer through a partnership with a major software company, but that fell through. At this point, we don't feel that we can afford to hire a software sales staff and build a software company around it. As a result of this, we are interested in building a market through open source. We can afford to maintain a certain level of development on this product, and are willing to do so. I'm not sure how you expect us to prove that, though. IMHO, the commitment from your company is not enough. The company might go under, or shift strategy, or find the product no longer useful. That would leave the product effectively orphaned, in Jakarta land but with nobody willing to support it. However, a commitment from the developers of the project themselves might be much more reassuring. How come you haven't put the source code out there under an OSS license yet so that we can look at it before we decide to begin to even consider it? Sorry, but I'm pretty new to the whole open source approach. We can look into other options and see what the best way to do this is. We're not looking to dump something on anyone. Un saludo, Alex.
Re: ASPizer
Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IMHO, the commitment from your company is not enough. The company might go under, or shift strategy, or find the product no longer useful. That would leave the product effectively orphaned, in Jakarta land but with nobody willing to support it. However, a commitment from the developers of the project themselves might be much more reassuring. Well said, Fernandez. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
On Thursday, October 18, 2001, at 07:48 AM, Endre Stølsvik wrote: So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How incredibly smart of you. Think about the synergies between Tomcat and Jboss!!! Wow! Incredible. rejecting jboss was probably good (in the long term) for everybody. jboss is stronger from having to support multiple servlet containers. the success of jboss is really a vindication of the jakarta decision. - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
On Thursday, October 18, 2001, at 08:18 AM, Ranjit Mathew wrote: Coming to the issues raised in Jon's document and elsewhere on this thread, I must tell you that this has been a closed-source project so far with no external developer community to speak of. It is still being actively developed and improved upon though, and as Paul points out, will be for quite some time to come. anybody can donate code to the Apache Software Foundation simply by creating code under The Apache Software License. but apache is more than a license. it's a way of open source development. there are open source projects whose development process is pretty much closed. the developers are a tight knit bunch and run their project more or less like commercial software development. the source might be open but the development process and the general project direction arn't. that's not how it is here at apache. development is done very much in the open. changes are argued about in public on public lists. (a bit like this, i guess) sometimes people get angry and leave. decisions are not cooked up in private. directions and designs are decided by election. We sincerely feel that the J2EE developer community will definitely benefit from such a solution. The itches that bothered us in our assignments are certainly those that are faced by most J2EE developers and sooner or later there will appear appropriate scratches - here or elsewhere. Why not use this as a starting point rather than starting from scratch? (Unintended pun!) you've persuaded me (at least) that you have enough commercial reasons for THBS to want to open source ASPizer. so - do it! create a new project at source force and pick a license. (if you retain the original copyright then you can always release the code again under a different license later if that becomes necessary.) i don't think that you'll get much joy here until people can see you're code. - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
I've followed this thread with interest, I have to say that I think the move to open source for a product has to be independant of any other action. If you aren't commited to releasing your product under an open source licence without the support of Apache it does seem suspicious. If your OS project is a success well and good, if you can find some champions at Apache then thats cool too. If it fails, and no one will support you then at least you gave it your best shot. Either way you *still* have that product, its the rest of us who don't but I can't imagine Apache folks adopting a project without picking it to bits first. Look at the quality of the projects running now, in terms of engineering, design, and vision they are by and large second to none. (just my 2c) d. so - do it! create a new project at source force and pick a license. (if you retain the original copyright then you can always release the code again under a different license later if that becomes necessary.) i don't think that you'll get much joy here until people can see you're code. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
Thanks to all the people who came up with helpful suggestions, we'll be looking into our options. Paul. -Original Message- From: Danny Angus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 4:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: ASPizer I've followed this thread with interest, I have to say that I think the move to open source for a product has to be independant of any other action. If you aren't commited to releasing your product under an open source licence without the support of Apache it does seem suspicious. If your OS project is a success well and good, if you can find some champions at Apache then thats cool too. If it fails, and no one will support you then at least you gave it your best shot. Either way you *still* have that product, its the rest of us who don't but I can't imagine Apache folks adopting a project without picking it to bits first. Look at the quality of the projects running now, in terms of engineering, design, and vision they are by and large second to none. (just my 2c) d. so - do it! create a new project at source force and pick a license. (if you retain the original copyright then you can always release the code again under a different license later if that becomes necessary.) i don't think that you'll get much joy here until people can see you're code. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
on 10/17/01 6:08 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I was pretty clear that we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE continuing to work on ASPizer and support it, and have described the commitment we expect to make. I question that commitment. No, I'm not going to just take your word for it. That's fine, I have no problem responding to any reasonable questions. How can you commit to backing a project over the long term if your company can't get funding? When your company goes out of business, what interest will you have in developing this project over the long term? We have a viable consulting company, and we make money. The product development is something we have done when we see a need in the market, but we have no reliance on income from it. We had hoped to sell ASPizer through a partnership with a major software company, but that fell through. At this point, we don't feel that we can afford to hire a software sales staff and build a software company around it. As a result of this, we are interested in building a market through open source. We can afford to maintain a certain level of development on this product, and are willing to do so. I'm not sure how you expect us to prove that, though. You need to realize that the 5 years that I have been around here, I have seen about 30-40 people just like you who come with some great project that they want to see survive beyond their company who want to give us the great pleasure of hosting for them so that they can maybe get some interest in it because no one was willing to buy it. We already have enough baggage around the Jakarta project. I think that adding any new projects is going to have to be carefully considered. The primary consideration is whether or not the project coming in has a developer and user community around it. The reason is because it will be these people who have to support the project long after the lead developers or the company that created it disappeared. The problem is that few people around here have been around for as long as I have so they have a very small understanding of the amount of crap that we have accumulated and gone through over the years. As a result, we have really closed our doors to new projects that have no community before they come here. Simply because we don't want to become a sourceforget.net (which is where I would have recommended you to go in the first place instead of pointing you at this list). These points are well taken. How come you haven't put the source code out there under an OSS license yet so that we can look at it before we decide to begin to even consider it? Sorry, but I'm pretty new to the whole open source approach. We can look into other options and see what the best way to do this is. We're not looking to dump something on anyone. Paul. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
From: Avi Cherry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Instead, he questioned the motives of the developer offering their code, implying that he was being selfish in wanting to have the Apache group take the project in. This was obviously not his intent, It might have been obvious to you, but it wasn't obvious to me (and still isn't) When I first read the original mail my reaction was Someone with a homeless project looking for an owner. In fact Paul's most recent mail says As a result of this, we are interested in building a market through open source. Which has an air of we can't afford to do this ourselves so we're hoping that we can utilise the Apache resources to get our product of the ground. There's nothing _wrong_ with that - my impression is that part of Sun's motive for donating to Jakarta is to take advantage of the resources/name of Apache to promote their technology. It can be a win-win situation, but if no one here thinks the project is worth being involved in, then there's no reason for the PMC et al. to put time/resources into it. Jon, it wouldn't kill you to be polite. That I most certainly agree with. Even a one line answer can be made more polite. A dosage of It appears to me... or I still don't see... can make most comments more palatable. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
on 10/17/01 9:36 PM, Tim Vernum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I first read the original mail my reaction was Someone with a homeless project looking for an owner. I must be tainted from having been around here so long. I see right through his proposal. In fact Paul's most recent mail says As a result of this, we are interested in building a market through open source. Which has an air of we can't afford to do this ourselves so we're hoping that we can utilise the Apache resources to get our product of the ground. Yes, that is what I saw right away. Add on to the fact that he has zero OSS experience, a contribution from him would not bring anything more than a code base and a lot of headaches for us to bring him up to speed on how to run an OSS project. Jakarta is not a dumping ground for code. There's nothing _wrong_ with that - my impression is that part of Sun's motive for donating to Jakarta is to take advantage of the resources/name of Apache to promote their technology. Actually, it is a slightly different and much much more drawn out story with Sun. It can be a win-win situation For the most part, with Sun, it has been a win-win solution. Several Jakarta developers (Costin/Craig/Pier are the first people that come to my mind) have gone on to become Sun employees* and that makes me happy to see them gainfully employed doing what they love to do. That said, Tomcat 3.0 wasn't a pretty code base at all and a lot of work has gone into cleaning it up (as well as re-writing it from scratch). * Costin recently left to go to another Apache-centric company...I'm sure his resume of working with Jakarta didn't hurt him. :-) , but if no one here thinks the project is worth being involved in, then there's no reason for the PMC et al. to put time/resources into it. I agree. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jon Stevens wrote: | on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond | sooner. | | A few comments: | | ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used | on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a product by THBS, with the | intention that we would sell it. However, due to various economic factors such | as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining | venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is | to continue in that direction. | | We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects. Why are you such an _asshole_ on mailing lists, Jon?? I just cannot believe your emails. They are such shit shometimes, it is just amazing! Go Jon, Go Jon, Go Jon, Go JOOON!!! YEAH! Endre. -- Mvh, Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
Endre, Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around, he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a dumping ground for .bomb projects. I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his mind. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of Jakarta. Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the body. On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jon Stevens wrote: | on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond | sooner. | | A few comments: | | ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used | on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a pr oduct by THBS, with the | intention that we would sell it. However, due to various economic factors such | as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining | venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is | to continue in that direction. | | We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects. Why are you such an _asshole_ on mailing lists, Jon?? I just cannot believe your emails. They are such shit shometimes, it is just amazing! Go Jon, Go Jon, Go Jon, Go JOOON!!! YEAH! Endre. -- Mvh, Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
--- Ceki Gulcu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Endre, Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around, he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a dumping ground for .bomb projects. Project X is written because it is useful to Company Y. Company Y attempts to market Project X because they think it is useful to others. Company Y decides they wont get enough money for Project X Company Y offers Project X to the Opensource community. What's wrong with that? Now of course it is right to question whether Apache Software Developers will find it useful enough to maintain the software. But how is Company Y to know unless it offers the software? Why should a piece of software be rejected by the opensource community just because it isn't commercially viable? PS Endre, There is no point in trying to get Jon to change his manners. Just ignore him when he is rude and listen to him quite closely when he is talking about software cause he is usually right. Alex = Alex McLintock[EMAIL PROTECTED]Open Source Consultancy in London OpenWeb Analysts Ltd, http://www.OWAL.co.uk/ --- SF and Computing Book News and Reviews: http://news.diversebooks.com/ Get Your XML T-Shirt t-shirt/ at http://www.inversity.co.uk/ COMPETITION : http://news.diversebooks.com/article.pl?sid=01/10/08/1947255 Nokia Game is on again. Go to http://uk.yahoo.com/nokiagame/ and join the new all media adventure before November 3rd. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his mind. It is only a pity when he speaks his mind BEFORE making his mind. Sometimes his remarks just have no grounds because he did not study a subject before talking about it. And this seems to be the case. OTOH, one sure can learn a lot from him... being persistent enough jumping over the (many) crapy bits he dumps in the way. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of Jakarta. Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the body. I am not going to say: - Jon, all that crap you sometimes do does not matter because you are an Apache cornerstone. All I can say is: - Jon, respect for others and yourself ALWAYS matters even if you were THE BOSS at Apache. Still, calling him (or anyone else) ungracious parts of the body is just another form of disrespect. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Ceki Gulcu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 1:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ASPizer Endre, Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around, he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a dumping ground for .bomb projects. I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his mind. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of Jakarta. Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the body. On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jon Stevens wrote: | on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond | sooner. | | A few comments: | | ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used | on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a pr oduct by THBS, with the | intention that we would sell it. However, due to various economic factors such | as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining | venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is | to continue in that direction. | | We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects. Why are you such an _asshole_ on mailing lists, Jon?? I just cannot believe your emails. They are such shit shometimes, it is just amazing! Go Jon, Go Jon, Go Jon, Go JOOON!!! YEAH! Endre. -- Mvh, Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote: | | Endre, | | Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around, | he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a | dumping ground for .bomb projects. Of course it's not a dumping ground. This is about whether the Open Source Community at Apache would be interested in a project. Starting the debate from Apache's side with such crude, ugly, disrespectful remarks like Jon's coming up with is just not fair. This company is dumping a whole lot of money too, I guess, coming from the investment in the software. There might be something there, just _might_ be something of interest. Why not try to look at that before launching such shit at the person that is, basically, just trying to be nice! | | I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his | mind. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of | Jakarta. Cornerstone and cornerstone. Would Jakarta crumble and die away if Jon wasn't here? | Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the body. I just wanna throw some shit back at him, because I don't respect him that much as a person, looking at his shitty remarks to other people. He probably doesn't notice anyways, or what do you think?? As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more. Why not just package things just a little bit nicer? Or just whatever? Be a bit more polite? Be, you know, nice to people? Especially to people he even doesn't know.. And I'd like to point out that Jon is just Jon. The world wouldn't stop revolving if he just .. disappeared or anything. Even Apache wouldn't stop working. Actually, nothing would stop working without him. That's the part this crude dude apparently haven't realized, talking like that to whoever gets in the way of his thoughts.. Jon is not doing Apache any good being like he is. I sincerly hope there isn't any suits watching this list at all, because that could ruin much.. -- Mvh, Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
Alex McLintock at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Project X is written because it is useful to Company Y. Company Y attempts to market Project X because they think it is useful to others. Company Y decides they wont get enough money for Project X Company Y offers Project X to the Opensource community. What's wrong with that? Nothing, but from a community standpoint, the ASF would rather incorporate projects that are not backed up by a self-sustained open-development community... Look at our last addition, Log4J, it was an IBM project, they dumped it, Ceki forked it, build an open-source community around it, and then we inglobated it under Jakarta (and it was a good addition)... I actually don't care about the code... The code could be the crappies one ever, but if the community behind it is good, it gets my preference over a magnificent piece of code with a non-existent or screwed community... Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I was pretty clear that we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE continuing to work on ASPizer and support it, and have described the commitment we expect to make. Now, if anyone wants to look more closely at the product and make some informed comments, we'll be happy to share information. I will not be responding to inane trolls. Paul. On Wed, 17 October 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote: Endre, Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around, he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a dumping ground for .bomb projects. I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his mind. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of Jakarta. Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the body. On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jon Stevens wrote: | on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond | sooner. | | A few comments: | | ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used | on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a pr oduct by THBS, with the | intention that we would sell it. However, due to various economic factors such | as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining | venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is | to continue in that direction. | | We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects. Why are you such an _asshole_ on mailing lists, Jon?? I just cannot believe your emails. They are such shit shometimes, it is just amazing! Go Jon, Go Jon, Go Jon, Go JOOON!!! YEAH! Endre. -- Mvh, Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping! http://www.shopping.altavista.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
Endre, Of course it's not a dumping ground. This is about whether the Open Source Community at Apache would be interested in a project. Starting the debate from Apache's side with such crude, ugly, disrespectful remarks like Jon's coming up with is just not fair. This company is dumping a whole lot of money too, I guess, coming from the investment in the software. There might be something there, just _might_ be something of interest. Why not try to look at that before launching such shit at the person that is, basically, just trying to be nice! | I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his | mind. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of | Jakarta. Cornerstone and cornerstone. Would Jakarta crumble and die away if Jon wasn't here? Contrary to the well known adage, some people are truly irreplaceable. For example, if it wasn't for Winston S. Churchill we would probably all be doing the Nazi salute today. Speaking one's mind, especially if expressing unpopular views, takes a lot of courage. It would make Jon a lot more popular if he were always smooth and accomodating. Jakarta needs people who can cut through the bullshit. Jon is one of them. Coming back to the issue at hand, if ASPizer authors are truly committed to open source and the Apache model, they should counter Jon's remarks and justify the reasons why their product should be part of Jakarta. Jakarta is not a dumping ground for .bomb projects. Untactful? Yes. Accurate statement? Yes. In their propposal, THBS commits to two years of development while a paragraph earlier they say that they can no longer fund the project. What kind of bull is that? I did not read anyone but Jon take the time challenge the inconsistencies in the proposal. We can all sit back and criticize Jon's style. In the mean time, somebody has to get the job done and it's often Jon. | Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the body. I just wanna throw some shit back at him, because I don't respect him that much as a person, looking at his shitty remarks to other people. He probably doesn't notice anyways, or what do you think?? As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more. Why not just package things just a little bit nicer? Or just whatever? Be a bit more polite? Be, you know, nice to people? Especially to people he even doesn't know.. I rather relate to a person who is direct than someone who always appears to be nice. And I'd like to point out that Jon is just Jon. The world wouldn't stop revolving if he just .. disappeared or anything. Even Apache wouldn't stop working. Actually, nothing would stop working without him. Jakarta is just Jakarta. The world wouldn't stop revolving if Jakarta just .. disappeared or anything. Even Apache wouldn't stop working. That's the part this crude dude apparently haven't realized, talking like that to whoever gets in the way of his thoughts.. No one is proposing that you marry Jon. Jon is not doing Apache any good being like he is. I sincerly hope there isn't any suits watching this list at all, because that could ruin much.. If you are trying to start a lynch party, you are unlikely to find many suitors in this forum. Regards, Ceki - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
on 10/17/01 9:24 AM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nothing, but from a community standpoint, the ASF would rather incorporate projects that are not backed up by a self-sustained open-development community... Look at our last addition, Log4J, it was an IBM project, they dumped it, Ceki forked it, build an open-source community around it, and then we inglobated it under Jakarta (and it was a good addition)... I actually don't care about the code... The code could be the crappies one ever, but if the community behind it is good, it gets my preference over a magnificent piece of code with a non-existent or screwed community... +1 This is similar to what I originally stated in my first response on the subject as well as a bazillion times over the years: There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool product. Nor is there anything that suggests what the developer community is like (ie: people who would be working on the product) nor the user community and the people who would be responsible for supporting the user community. Maybe someday, someone will bother to read the archives before posting here so that either I or Pier or someone else don't have to constantly explain why a response of: We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects. ...isn't an asshole response, but just a simple summary of what we have been saying here for the last 5 years. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
on 10/17/01 6:08 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I was pretty clear that we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE continuing to work on ASPizer and support it, and have described the commitment we expect to make. I question that commitment. No, I'm not going to just take your word for it. How can you commit to backing a project over the long term if your company can't get funding? When your company goes out of business, what interest will you have in developing this project over the long term? You need to realize that the 5 years that I have been around here, I have seen about 30-40 people just like you who come with some great project that they want to see survive beyond their company who want to give us the great pleasure of hosting for them so that they can maybe get some interest in it because no one was willing to buy it. We already have enough baggage around the Jakarta project. I think that adding any new projects is going to have to be carefully considered. The primary consideration is whether or not the project coming in has a developer and user community around it. The reason is because it will be these people who have to support the project long after the lead developers or the company that created it disappeared. The problem is that few people around here have been around for as long as I have so they have a very small understanding of the amount of crap that we have accumulated and gone through over the years. As a result, we have really closed our doors to new projects that have no community before they come here. Simply because we don't want to become a sourceforget.net (which is where I would have recommended you to go in the first place instead of pointing you at this list). If you had bothered to read the archives before coming here, you would have seen myself and others say similar things like the above over and over and over again. Yes, this is prompting me to do yet even more work and create a FAQ page for this stuff on the website. I'm tired of repeating myself. Now, if anyone wants to look more closely at the product and make some informed comments, we'll be happy to share information. I will not be responding to inane trolls. How come you haven't put the source code out there under an OSS license yet so that we can look at it before we decide to begin to even consider it? thanks, -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ceki Gulcu writes: Coming back to the issue at hand, if ASPizer authors are truly committed to open source and the Apache model, they should counter Jon's remarks and justify the reasons why their product should be part of Jakarta. ... I did not read anyone but Jon take the time challenge the inconsistencies in the proposal. We can all sit back and criticize Jon's style. In the mean time, somebody has to get the job done and it's often Jon. I just wanted to echo Ceki's above statements which capture the two issues beating around (project acceptance and Jon's critique). Any project proposal must overcome the criticisms leveled against it in order to be accepted. The debate can get seemingly ugly, but it's a necessary filter to keep Jakarta on track. Also, while some of us (I'm thinking of myself in this instance) think I don't have the time to write a lengthy diplomatic criticism. and procrastinate on addressing an issue, Jon takes the time out of his busy schedule and very efficiently summarizes the issues in a couple of sentences (which is sometimes unfortunately taken as tactless or even offensive rather than brief and to the point). I've lost track if we've brought this to a vote or not, but unless Jon's points are adequately addressed, I have to cast a vote of -1 on accepting the proposal. daniel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
on 10/17/01 9:35 AM, Ceki Gulcu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jakarta is not a dumping ground for .bomb projects. Untactful? Yes. Accurate statement? Yes. Let me point out that I tried tact the first time I responded: There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool product. Nor is there anything that suggests what the developer community is like (ie: people who would be working on the product) nor the user community and the people who would be responsible for supporting the user community. It didn't seem to get through to the guy so I brought it up a notch. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
Jon, This is a nice entry for the FAQ you are talking about. It is quite reasonable and all. Copying and pasting this somewhere and putting the corresponding question before it is better than nothing and you get an URL to use next time the problem pops up. I quite like your well tempered writing - it is still direct to the point but much less ofensive. Thanks and have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 8:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ASPizer on 10/17/01 6:08 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I was pretty clear that we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE continuing to work on ASPizer and support it, and have described the commitment we expect to make. I question that commitment. No, I'm not going to just take your word for it. How can you commit to backing a project over the long term if your company can't get funding? When your company goes out of business, what interest will you have in developing this project over the long term? You need to realize that the 5 years that I have been around here, I have seen about 30-40 people just like you who come with some great project that they want to see survive beyond their company who want to give us the great pleasure of hosting for them so that they can maybe get some interest in it because no one was willing to buy it. We already have enough baggage around the Jakarta project. I think that adding any new projects is going to have to be carefully considered. The primary consideration is whether or not the project coming in has a developer and user community around it. The reason is because it will be these people who have to support the project long after the lead developers or the company that created it disappeared. The problem is that few people around here have been around for as long as I have so they have a very small understanding of the amount of crap that we have accumulated and gone through over the years. As a result, we have really closed our doors to new projects that have no community before they come here. Simply because we don't want to become a sourceforget.net (which is where I would have recommended you to go in the first place instead of pointing you at this list). If you had bothered to read the archives before coming here, you would have seen myself and others say similar things like the above over and over and over again. Yes, this is prompting me to do yet even more work and create a FAQ page for this stuff on the website. I'm tired of repeating myself. Now, if anyone wants to look more closely at the product and make some informed comments, we'll be happy to share information. I will not be responding to inane trolls. How come you haven't put the source code out there under an OSS license yet so that we can look at it before we decide to begin to even consider it? thanks, -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote: | As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his | observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more. |Why not just package things just a little bit nicer? Or just whatever? | Be a bit more polite? Be, you know, nice to people? Especially to people | he even doesn't know.. | | I rather relate to a person who is direct than someone who always | appears to be nice. Jon's last post is just so very much better. Why not start with something like that? It's still pretty direct, but in a much nicer, somewhat diplomatic way. I just cannot understand how you can justify such extreme rudeness!? | | And I'd like to point out that Jon is just Jon. The world wouldn't stop | revolving if he just .. disappeared or anything. Even Apache wouldn't stop | working. Actually, nothing would stop working without him. | | Jakarta is just Jakarta. The world wouldn't stop revolving if Jakarta | just .. disappeared or anything. Even Apache wouldn't stop working. huh? | Jon is not doing Apache any good being like he is. I sincerly hope there | isn't any suits watching this list at all, because that could ruin | much.. | | If you are trying to start a lynch party, you are unlikely to find | many suitors in this forum. I'm not. It's trying to point something out to Jon, actually. But he definately does have a load of followers in this forum, protecting his 5 years earned rights to be rude. But I do know that there is several other people that feel about the same way about Jon's behaviour on the lists he subscribes to as me, tough. Just read the lists! -- Mvh, Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
On Wed, 17 October 2001, Jon Stevens wrote: Let me point out that I tried tact the first time I responded: There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool product. Nor is there anything that suggests what the developer community is like (ie: people who would be working on the product) nor the user community and the people who would be responsible for supporting the user community. It didn't seem to get through to the guy so I brought it up a notch. -jon Actually, I responded to all your points, then you decided it was time to insult us, at which point it no longer seemed worthwhile responding to you at all. Fortunately, not everyone on the list has the same attitude problem. Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping! http://www.shopping.altavista.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
on 10/17/01 1:21 PM, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jon's last post is just so very much better. Why not start with something like that? It's still pretty direct, but in a much nicer, somewhat diplomatic way. I did start nice. How come you choose to ignore that? I'm not. It's trying to point something out to Jon, actually. But he definately does have a load of followers in this forum, protecting his 5 years earned rights to be rude. But I do know that there is several other people that feel about the same way about Jon's behaviour on the lists he subscribes to as me, tough. Just read the lists! Yup, I admit it. I have a fairly low tolerance for bullshit. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
on 10/17/01 12:42 PM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I responded to all your points, then you decided it was time to insult us, at which point it no longer seemed worthwhile responding to you at all. Fortunately, not everyone on the list has the same attitude problem. You see an attitude problem. I see you getting defensive and making judgments of my personality based on emails (and not even knowing me) because I don't jump up and exclaim joy for your gracious offer of dumping your product on us. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
At 22:21 17.10.2001 +0200, Endre Stølsvik wrote: On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote: | As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his | observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more. |Why not just package things just a little bit nicer? Or just whatever? | Be a bit more polite? Be, you know, nice to people? Especially to people | he even doesn't know.. | | I rather relate to a person who is direct than someone who always | appears to be nice. Jon's last post is just so very much better. Why not start with something like that? It's still pretty direct, but in a much nicer, somewhat diplomatic way. I just cannot understand how you can justify such extreme rudeness!? What extreme rudeness? Jon justifiably told Ranjit Mathew that Jakarta was not a dumping ground. He also outlined that unlikely promises were not good enough. While one may criticize his direct style, Jakarta is not a popularity contest. On the other hand, how do you qualify calling Jon an asshole? Unless you were referring to the usefulness of that body part in evacuating shit, your name calling constitutes extreme rudeness in itself. Your subsequent comments were not much better either. | Jon is not doing Apache any good being like he is. I sincerly hope there | isn't any suits watching this list at all, because that could ruin | much.. | | If you are trying to start a lynch party, you are unlikely to find | many suitors in this forum. I'm not. It's trying to point something out to Jon, actually. But he definately does have a load of followers in this forum, protecting his 5 years earned rights to be rude. But I do know that there is several other people that feel about the same way about Jon's behaviour on the lists he subscribes to as me, tough. Just read the lists! The only one being rude in this forum is you. Ceki -- Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch Link of the day: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40473-2001Oct10.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
At 12:42 17.10.2001 -0700, Paul Ilechko wrote: On Wed, 17 October 2001, Jon Stevens wrote: Let me point out that I tried tact the first time I responded: There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool product. Nor is there anything that suggests what the developer community is like (ie: people who would be working on the product) nor the user community and the people who would be responsible for supporting the user community. It didn't seem to get through to the guy so I brought it up a notch. -jon Actually, I responded to all your points, then you decided it was time to insult us, at which point it no longer seemed worthwhile responding to you at all. Fortunately, not everyone on the list has the same attitude problem. I am sorry but what insult are you referring to? Disagreement != insult. -- Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch Link of the day: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40473-2001Oct10.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
on 10/17/01 12:24 PM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, this is not what we said. We said we cannot fund taking the product to market, which is vastly different than being able to fund development. We are primarily a consulting company, and we have used ASPizer for a client project. We do not have a software sales channel, and we are not currently in a position to develop one. Paul. Let me quote you: However, due to various economic factors such as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is to continue in that direction. And: We intend to continue to provide development support, and we have no problem to committing 3 developers in an ongoing basis. If you don't have the money to fund development of the product, then how are you going to have money to keep several engineers working on it and supporting it? You keep contradicting yourself. Even still, that doesn't deal with the issues surrounding the need to have an established community as well as even letting us look at the code base (I care if the code and design is good or not). -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
Let me quote you: However, due to various economic factors such as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is to continue in that direction. And: We intend to continue to provide development support, and we have no problem to committing 3 developers in an ongoing basis. If you don't have the money to fund development of the product, then how are you going to have money to keep several engineers working on it and supporting it? You keep contradicting yourself. I've already responded to that. You jumped to an incorrect conclusion, and attacked without even atttempting to get clarification. Even still, that doesn't deal with the issues surrounding the need to have an established community as well as even letting us look at the code base (I care if the code and design is good or not). Sorry, I don't ever recall you asking to see the code or the design. We have sent design docs to someone from Apache who was interested enough to ask for them. Established Communities don't suddenly appear full-fledged from nowhere - we have developers to seed a community, all we are doing is looking to see if there is interest in the product. Why are you so threatened by this ? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
-Original Message- From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 11:54 PM I am sorry but what insult are you referring to? Calling someone's hard-worked project .bomb, without even trying to get informed about it. Does this qualify? Have fun, Paulo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
on 10/17/01 4:29 PM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Calling someone's hard-worked project .bomb, without even trying to get informed about it. Does this qualify? It is a .bomb project though. I have an entire corporation of them (yes, I am the proud owner of a rather large worthless shareholders certificate). Big deal. Sorry, I don't see an offense in that. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
I don't have any more time for this. End of discussion. I'm not going to change my mind. -1 My suggestion: Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost. Good luck. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
Daniel Rall wrote: ASPizer guys: you have the option to re-submit your proposal in a manner which directly addresses the questions raised here. People do sometimes change their minds when presented with a comprehensive set of information in a format desirable to them. +1 Just remember, Jakarta has a high threshold for creating new projects. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
At 8:00 PM -0400 10/17/01, Scott Tacares wrote: I don't care if he was here before time and space there is no excuse! He does damage to the entire open source community with his crude and unjustified remarks. It makes people shy away from participating in fear that he may belittle them, this is just unacceptable! PERIOD! Two years ago, I decided that I would not ever contribute to any project that jon was apart of because of his piss poor aptitude and judgment and to this day I have not, which really sucks for me, because I want nothing more then to so. I'm generally just a lurker here, but I have to speak up here and say that I agree with this. I think Jon is USUALLY spot on with most of his opinions, but I'm not here to argue about if he's right or wrong about Apache-related business. My problem is that he's rude. He seems to go out of his way to be rude and to speak his opinions, no matter how correct, in a very harsh manner. He asks why people get defensive about what he says? That's because he's being OFFENSIVE. I also agree that I would never want to be actively involved in a project with him simply because his presence is a deterrent. Not everyone has as thick of a skin as others. This does not make them less valuable to the community, but it does make them less likely to want to speak an informed opinion if they think that Jon might be ready to jump on their head if he disagrees with them. This seems like a net loss all around. I believe it's possible for Jon to be just as useful to the Apache communities without him having to act in a way that's going to drive people away from him. Jon can manage to be both extremely informative as well as (relatively) polite. He made a post at 11:19AM PST that if he would have made at the beginning of this discussion, might have avoided this entire thread. Instead, he questioned the motives of the developer offering their code, implying that he was being selfish in wanting to have the Apache group take the project in. This was obviously not his intent, and to imply that his motivations were selfish is something I simply cannot understand. His main point that the project doesn't satisfy the requirements for being an Apache project is probably correct, but the manner he chose to point this out seemed hostile to me. Jon, it wouldn't kill you to be polite. If someone says or does something that you don't agree with, please consider taking a deep breath, having a beer, smoking a joint. Whatever. Just calm down and take a moment to word your response in a way that doesn't make you look like the list's resident ogre. If then, after your first polite reply, they still don't get it by all means, go in with guns blazing. Avi Cherry - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I'm not. It's trying to point something out to Jon, actually. But he definately does have a load of followers in this forum, protecting his 5 years earned rights to be rude. But I do know that there is several other people that feel about the same way about Jon's behaviour on the lists he subscribes to as me, tough. Just read the lists! Just to add my $0.002 cents worth, it was Jon's attitude on the jserv list that got me engaged with Apache/Java stuff in the first place. (And I've now contributed a fair amount to Turbine as well as a little elsewhere). The thing is that most people who do open source work do it for the fun/satisfaction of the thing, and engaging in debates with someone who truly speaks their mind and only compliments your work when its worth complimenting helps out with that fun/satisfaction thing. If you want nice polite accommodating support go to someone that you _pay_ not to tell you you're being an idiot when you're being an idiot. -- Sean Legassick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hombre soy, nada humano me puede ser ajeno - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
Don't freak out Paul. Jon is just being his usual self. OTOH, he is the only Apache member I am aware of with this kind of self. Have fun, Paulo http://www.krankikom.de http://www.ruhronline.de -Original Message- From: Paul Ilechko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 8:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: ASPizer Tbanks for the constructive criticism, Jon. Paul. -Original Message- From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Ranjit Mathew; Arnab Ghosh Subject: Re: ASPizer on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond sooner. A few comments: ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a product by THBS, with the intention that we would sell it. However, due to various economic factors such as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is to continue in that direction. We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects. We do think that ASPizer is an interesting product that has a strong synergy with some existing Apache technologies. We intend to continue to provide development support, and we have no problem to committing 3 developers in an ongoing basis. As far as getting an Apache champion, I'm not sure how we go about that - I was hoping someone would be interested enough to follow up based on the proposal that we submitted. Exactly. As far as the user community is concerned, we believe that there are two primary groups - 1. ASP related companies, including ISVs developing for the ASP market, Aggregators who assemble packages of applications, and Hosting providers, 2. Corporate users that run internal IT in an ASP-like way, or who have external clients accessing their systems (we have had preliminary discussions with a couple of the latter). We would be able to support early-adopter clients during the initial period of the product being made available, we are willing to commit to at least two years. I'm confused. How can you commit two years when you can't get funding for your business? ASPizer may have some overlap with Turbine, but it is quite a different product. My understanding is that Turbine is basically a tool to help developers build web applications, whereas ASPizer is more of a platform extension. With ASPizer it is possible to configure an application to run in an ASP model, including security, billing and licensing, without actually changing the application at all (so in fact you can even ASPize a non-J2EE application), although using the APIs provides a much more granular set of facilities. We are also currently working on making ASPizer available as a set of web services. The use of the term 'security' is very broad in your example. BTW, I wrote an ASPizer as well...it is called Noodle. LOL! http://noodle.tigris.org :-) We will be happy to provide code and documentation for anyone who is interested in digging deeper. Good luck. :-) -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond sooner. A few comments: ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a product by THBS, with the intention that we would sell it. However, due to various economic factors such as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is to continue in that direction. We do think that ASPizer is an interesting product that has a strong synergy with some existing Apache technologies. We intend to continue to provide development support, and we have no problem to committing 3 developers in an ongoing basis. As far as getting an Apache champion, I'm not sure how we go about that - I was hoping someone would be interested enough to follow up based on the proposal that we submitted. As far as the user community is concerned, we believe that there are two primary groups - 1. ASP related companies, including ISVs developing for the ASP market, Aggregators who assemble packages of applications, and Hosting providers, 2. Corporate users that run internal IT in an ASP-like way, or who have external clients accessing their systems (we have had preliminary discussions with a couple of the latter). We would be able to support early-adopter clients during the initial period of the product being made available, we are willing to commit to at least two years. ASPizer may have some overlap with Turbine, but it is quite a different product. My understanding is that Turbine is basically a tool to help developers build web applications, whereas ASPizer is more of a platform extension. With ASPizer it is possible to configure an application to run in an ASP model, including security, billing and licensing, without actually changing the application at all (so in fact you can even ASPize a non-J2EE application), although using the APIs provides a much more granular set of facilities. We are also currently working on making ASPizer available as a set of web services. We will be happy to provide code and documentation for anyone who is interested in digging deeper. Paul. _ Paul Ilechko Principal Architect Torry Harris Business Solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 5:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Ilechko Cc: Ranjit Mathew; Arnab Ghosh Subject: Re: Tomcat extensions for ASPs Hi, The general rule of thumb for this sort of thing is that the project must have at least 3 developers involved and at least one champion from Apache to kickstart it. The reason for this is is that we need some way to guarenteee that the project will be a success and that there will still be developers involved with in a years or twos time. So you need to include this sort of information in your proposal. It would also be good to contrast it with existing Apache projects. ie How does it compare to something like turbine? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
Tbanks for the constructive criticism, Jon. Paul. -Original Message- From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Ranjit Mathew; Arnab Ghosh Subject: Re: ASPizer on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond sooner. A few comments: ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a product by THBS, with the intention that we would sell it. However, due to various economic factors such as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is to continue in that direction. We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects. We do think that ASPizer is an interesting product that has a strong synergy with some existing Apache technologies. We intend to continue to provide development support, and we have no problem to committing 3 developers in an ongoing basis. As far as getting an Apache champion, I'm not sure how we go about that - I was hoping someone would be interested enough to follow up based on the proposal that we submitted. Exactly. As far as the user community is concerned, we believe that there are two primary groups - 1. ASP related companies, including ISVs developing for the ASP market, Aggregators who assemble packages of applications, and Hosting providers, 2. Corporate users that run internal IT in an ASP-like way, or who have external clients accessing their systems (we have had preliminary discussions with a couple of the latter). We would be able to support early-adopter clients during the initial period of the product being made available, we are willing to commit to at least two years. I'm confused. How can you commit two years when you can't get funding for your business? ASPizer may have some overlap with Turbine, but it is quite a different product. My understanding is that Turbine is basically a tool to help developers build web applications, whereas ASPizer is more of a platform extension. With ASPizer it is possible to configure an application to run in an ASP model, including security, billing and licensing, without actually changing the application at all (so in fact you can even ASPize a non-J2EE application), although using the APIs provides a much more granular set of facilities. We are also currently working on making ASPizer available as a set of web services. The use of the term 'security' is very broad in your example. BTW, I wrote an ASPizer as well...it is called Noodle. LOL! http://noodle.tigris.org :-) We will be happy to provide code and documentation for anyone who is interested in digging deeper. Good luck. :-) -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
