[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
Lance, You raise some good points, and I started to realize that simple Smart Buckets wouldn't be the ideal solution as I was typing it out; however... Rather than querying money flows, which would probably be rather complex, I think that the same thing could be achieved if Smart Buckets allowed you to add or subtract selected bucket totals (buckets could be selected by name or by dollar amount) to the displayed Smart Bucket total. This should capture the desired money flows, and would likely be easier to use. So, the Smart Bucket would allow you to select which transactions you want displayed, and if you want to adjust the total of those transactions by a specified amount or specified bucket balances, or both. This would allow a person to check their document (accounts balances = bucket balances) as well as check for how much you have overspent. You could verify that this is less than a Buffer or savings bucket, or a preplanned buffer that you included when first setting up the initial cash flow. In any case, I think you're right, even Smart Buckets (without displaying totals that can be adjusted by bucket balances or moneyflows) wouldn't completely automate the process of ensuring the document is in balance, but it would eliminate several steps. Blair On Apr 19, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Lance wrote: On Apr 18, 10:57 pm, The Watkinson Family thewatkins...@mac.com wrote: Lance, Would it need to be anything more complicated than this? Or is there something I'm missing? Ok, I see what you're saying now but I'm not sure that's much of an improvement over what we currently have. I'd like a smart bucket that shows the difference between the sum of my cash flow accounts and my bucket balances (which will always be $0 for me) so I can immediately see if I have any errors without having to visually compare two numbers or click anywhere. Since real buckets have both a list of associated transactions and a list of associated money flows, perhaps each smart bucket could have two separate queries and would sum the amounts together. Then you could still easily create simple transaction only based queries, but if you wanted, you could also flip to a Money Flow query tab as well. I see smart buckets as being really useful to combine multiple physical buckets you already have. For example, I could create a smart bucket that combines my bills into a single smart bucket, or even create discretionary and non-discretionary buckets. Maybe even first half and second half of the month expense buckets. Lots of possibilities here. All of these would require the ability to query on money flows to make them useful and work similar to existing buckets. If I were limited to transaction only queries, there are one or two I might use (sum of open transactions), but overall I wouldn't find the feature very useful. But perhaps others see usages I don't. -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 20, 4:14 am, Kevin Hoctor ke...@nothirst.com wrote: Lance Blair, I am following this thread and it's a good discussion but buckets are meant to contain transactions and that's what user-defined smart buckets will display. Hey Kevin, Thanks for the update. Since real buckets in MoneyWell contain both transactions and money flows, I thought it would be a natural extension for smart buckets to look at both, although I guess the current smart buckets (i.e. All Transactions) are pretty simplistic and only look at transactions. What types of smart buckets are you envisioning with this capability? Other than maybe a bucket of all my open transactions (which I can actually get now by sorting by transaction status in the register), I'm not seeing why this would be real useful, at least not until we have tagging. Sent from my iPhone Nice! Running an alpha version of MoneyWell mobile I assume ... :) -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 20, 2009, at 2:16 PM, Lance wrote: On Apr 20, 4:14 am, Kevin Hoctor ke...@nothirst.com wrote: Lance Blair, I am following this thread and it's a good discussion but buckets are meant to contain transactions and that's what user-defined smart buckets will display. Hey Kevin, Thanks for the update. Since real buckets in MoneyWell contain both transactions and money flows, I thought it would be a natural extension for smart buckets to look at both, although I guess the current smart buckets (i.e. All Transactions) are pretty simplistic and only look at transactions. What types of smart buckets are you envisioning with this capability? Other than maybe a bucket of all my open transactions (which I can actually get now by sorting by transaction status in the register), I'm not seeing why this would be real useful, at least not until we have tagging. Lance, The user-defined smart buckets will simply give you the ability to set your own predicate for a search. This predicate builder will be transaction centric though. Sent from my iPhone Nice! Running an alpha version of MoneyWell mobile I assume ... :) It's even too early to call it an alpha. ;) Peace, Kevin Hoctor ke...@nothirst.com No Thirst Software LLC http://nothirst.com http://kevinhoctor.blogspot.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
Kevin Hoctor wrote: Lance, The user-defined smart buckets will simply give you the ability to set your own predicate for a search. This predicate builder will be transaction centric though. I see, smart buckets will basically be a shortcut for searching. I'm sure many users will find this helpful (especially for tax or business-related transactions) but for me, it probably won't be worth sacrificing the screen real estate in the bucket list when I can recreate any smart bucket on the fly with a quick search. I guess I'll have to wait and see how it works. One question though: what (if any) number will be displayed next to these smart buckets? Will it be the total number of transactions meeting that criteria (similar to how the built-in smart buckets work) or will it be the total amount of the transactions (similar to how the account buckets work)? I can see both being useful depending on the bucket. Thanks, Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 20, 2009, at 4:54 PM, Lance wrote: One question though: what (if any) number will be displayed next to these smart buckets? Will it be the total number of transactions meeting that criteria (similar to how the built-in smart buckets work) or will it be the total amount of the transactions (similar to how the account buckets work)? I can see both being useful depending on the bucket. Lance, That's not finalized but I think it'll be an option per smart bucket. Peace, Kevin Hoctor ke...@nothirst.com No Thirst Software LLC http://nothirst.com http://kevinhoctor.blogspot.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 18, 10:57 pm, The Watkinson Family thewatkins...@mac.com wrote: Lance, Would it need to be anything more complicated than this? Or is there something I'm missing? Ok, I see what you're saying now but I'm not sure that's much of an improvement over what we currently have. I'd like a smart bucket that shows the difference between the sum of my cash flow accounts and my bucket balances (which will always be $0 for me) so I can immediately see if I have any errors without having to visually compare two numbers or click anywhere. Since real buckets have both a list of associated transactions and a list of associated money flows, perhaps each smart bucket could have two separate queries and would sum the amounts together. Then you could still easily create simple transaction only based queries, but if you wanted, you could also flip to a Money Flow query tab as well. I see smart buckets as being really useful to combine multiple physical buckets you already have. For example, I could create a smart bucket that combines my bills into a single smart bucket, or even create discretionary and non-discretionary buckets. Maybe even first half and second half of the month expense buckets. Lots of possibilities here. All of these would require the ability to query on money flows to make them useful and work similar to existing buckets. If I were limited to transaction only queries, there are one or two I might use (sum of open transactions), but overall I wouldn't find the feature very useful. But perhaps others see usages I don't. -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
What else is tripping people up? I suppose it could be a variety of things. I, for instance, want to use only one financial application. While MoneyWell is intended to control cash flow, I also want to track non-cash flow accounts, such as loans, debts, and investments. I'll use the term cash-flow account throughout to refer to an account, that if I were to use actual buckets, I would liquidate it to put cash in my buckets. They include accounts like checking, savings, credit cards (which reduces the amount of money that I have to put in a bucket), and cash. Transfers can be a big challenge to figure out how to interact with buckets. When transferring money between cash-flow accounts, no bucket should be assigned. When transferring money from a cash-flow account to another account, the withdrawal should be assigned to a bucket. Conversely, when transferring money from a non-cash flow account to a cash-flow account, the deposit should be assigned to a bucket. This is non-intuitive without giving the whole process some thought and is easily confused during execution. Getting it wrong however, can easily mislead you into thinking you have more money than you actually have for expenses. That's at least one of several ways to get tripped up. Another way would be if you started using MoneyWell sometime in a given month, say,Mar, and started tracking your cash flow on 1 April, using the cash you had at the time by adding up all your cash-flow accounts, and then realizing later that you forgotten a transaction back in Mar. When you go to add the transaction, you might forget to apply the correction to your starting cash flow amount. This transaction, being before the cash flow date, will not affect bucket totals, but it will change cash available and account balances, effectively reducing the amount you should have put in the buckets. You could inadvertently overspend this way without realizing it. I implemented a tool using Excel several years ago that basically used a bucket/envelope method and tracked all my accounts. I found two calculations extraordinarily useful after using the system for nearly two years. The first was the total of all my cash flow accounts minus the total of all buckets with positive balances (this could be calculated using a smart bucket if the appropriate logic were in place). This amount told me how much money I had overdrawn my buckets/envelopes. While it is ideal to never have to overdraw a bucket, sometimes a person might make an intentional choice to spend next month's money now, or it is near the end of the month and you buy groceries on the 31st instead of the 1st. Also, folks who travel for business might have a negative bucket until they are reimbursed. As long as a recovery plan is in place, it is not critical when a person overdraws a bucket, and a money flow may not be desirable. However, the deficit has to be covered by other buckets or by a hidden buffer not accounted for in the bucket/envelope system. If you were to overdraw a bucket, and then spend all the money from the other buckets, you won't have enough money to cover your expenses (or you'll dip into the hidden buffer). This number told me that I needed to reserve a certain amount of money to cover the expenses. If the number was smaller than my Savings bucket/envelope (or another one used for reserve), no immediate problem. I just needed a plan to get fixed, whether it was the next paycheck or the reimbursement, or whatever. I occasionally received extra money that I would choose not allocate, this sometimes this calculation was positive. Meaning I had more money in accounts than I had planned to spend. Consequently, I called this calculation my Buffer. The second was a balance checker similar to what has been exhaustively discussed. This could also be implemented by users if the appropriate logic were added to smart buckets (in particular being able to exclude certain transaction types). I don't remember if smart buckets were being added in 1.5, but in any case, it seems that increased smart bucket functionality has great potential to allow folks to double check their bucket integrity whenever they do arrive. This could provide a non-intrusive solution for everyone. Lance, Dave, et al, what do you think? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 17, 7:48 pm, Druzyne drew.k...@gmail.com wrote: A smart bucket could target that. What else is tripping people up? Off the top of my head, here are several ways you can unintentionally screw up your bucket balances: 1) Incorrect starting cash flow balance: instead of automating this based on starting balances, MoneyWell presents you with a single text entry. Other than the obvious potential for math errors, the new user may not fully comprehend what this text box is asking for and fill it in incorrectly. If you have a single checking account, this might not be a problem, but if you have 2-3 credit cards, some savings accounts and maybe some other non-cash flow accounts as Blair mentions, it's not hard to screw this up. 2) Deleted transactions: as covered in another recent thread, it's fairly easy to accidentally delete a transaction (even reconciled ones) and not notice it. 3) Duplicate transactions: If you manually enter a fair amount of transactions or use the scheduled transaction feature, you'll quickly learn that MoneyWell's merge feature is not 100%. Unless you catch these every time, you can easily have duplicate transactions. 4) Incorrect amounts: Sort of a combination of #2 and #3. If you have to manually merge duplicate transactions with slightly different amounts, you might delete the wrong one. 5) Incorrect transaction status: If you have a pending transaction that is actually in the past (meaning it should really be Cleared/ Reconciled) it won't count against your bucket balances. 6) Split transaction issues: for some reason, each child of a split transaction can have a different transaction status. If you've manually changed any of these in an attempt to fix some other problem, you can really screw things up, not that this has ever happened to me :) 7) Unbucketed transactions: Obviously if you don't assign a bucket to every transaction you can get in trouble but this is fairly clear from the Unassigned smart bucket. However, this can get complicated with non-cash flow accounts as Blair describes or if you get in the habit of using the bucket optional feature. 8) Credit card payments: if you pay your credit cards in full every month, your payment should NOT have a bucket assignment. However, if this payment is for transactions that occurred prior to your cash flash start date, it should have a bucket. If the payment is a combination of the two, good luck figuring out what you should do. I'm sure there are others as well. While routinely reconciling your account can catch a lot of these, this is not a guarantee. In addition, tracking down mistakes weeks after you've made them is very painful. Perhaps I am just more mistake prone than others on this thread, but I'm a bit surprised those who are opposed to any kind of enforced checking have not been bit by at least one of these problems before. One thing I've seen discussed above that seems contradictory to me is this notion that if you screw up, you can simply start over by changing your cash flow start date and looking at your balance that day. If this were actually true, then it implies that you have a fixed relation between your account balances and bucket balances. But if you are opposed to enforcing a check on this relationship, then you're obviously doing something that invalidates this assumption and you are NOT safe to start over when you need to! I think this topic has probably been beaten to death at this point. In my experience with developing software I've learned that giving users what they want is actually more important than giving them what they really need. Since several users are opposed to any sort of enforced checking, that is the way Kevin should go. Please just give the rest of us an option to easily do this checking and find some way to help new users avoid these pitfalls. -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 17, 5:19 pm, Dave oneblessed...@gmail.com wrote: It's kind of interesting to me actually. If you put this discussion into the socio-political genre. Lance, you are a Democrat and Druzyne you are a Republican. If that were the case, Druzyne and I would actually be in total agreement with each other on the core issues but focusing on our superficial differences to divert people from questioning the real issues. That and we'd have corporate sponsors paying us lots of money :) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 17, 11:21 pm, The Watkinson Family thewatkins...@mac.com wrote: I don't remember if smart buckets were being added in 1.5, but in any case, it seems that increased smart bucket functionality has great potential to allow folks to double check their bucket integrity whenever they do arrive. This could provide a non-intrusive solution for everyone. Lance, Dave, et al, what do you think? Blair, I had similar checks built into my Excel spreadsheets as well. Most of my checking was the direct result of mistakes I had made in my 7+ years of using and tweaking that system. Unfortunately, you don't realize you need checking until you've been bit by the lack of it. I really like your idea of using smart buckets for several reasons: 1) It could solve the problems discussed in this thread. 2) It gives advanced MoneyWell users a way to easily customize the program and add functionality. This can also be easily shared by posting your smart bucket query on this forum. Much better than the sqlite3 hacks. 3) It is non-intrusive to other users who don't want this functionality. New users could be presented with the option of enabling a pre-canned list of useful smart buckets, similar to the list of default expense buckets. However, I think there are some problems with this approach as well: 1) What would the UI look for this? It would have to be fairly complex to have the power we really need. I know Kevin wants to keep the MoneyWell interface simple and this would be difficult. Perhaps there could be a simple smart bucket creation window and an advanced window where maybe you directly enter in SQL, although I'm sure Kevin wants to avoid that like the plague :) 2) The existing smart buckets are simply a subset of your transactions. If Kevin extends this to allow user-defined smart buckets, I'm sure he'd still want to limit them to querying for a subset of transactions. This would prevent us from implementing the checks you mention since we would need a way to query on money flows as well. Maybe Kevin can come up with something clever for us. -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
Danno, I think that there is a mathematical relationship--it's just not enforced by the software. With several steps you could verify that your document is mathematically sound. In that sense, I think that the software and your document should be trustworthy. I'd be happy to enumerate the steps if you need them... blair On Apr 18, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Mr. Danno Sullivan wrote: Yes. The fact that there's not a mathematical connection between bank balance and bucket balance is the one thing that keeps me from using MoneyWell--it boils down to simply not trusting it! (The fact that I'm still reading this forum shows that I really would like to have it be my One True Solution!) ds On Apr 16, 2009, at 3:34 PM, Lance wrote: On Apr 16, 11:46 am, Druzyne drew.k...@gmail.com wrote: My suggestion to you, and others, is to only worry if the Bucket Balance exceeds your account balances. If the Bucket Balance is less, and you only focus on your bucket balances, that simply means you're spending less money than you have available, which should be your goal anyways. So don't worry!! You're doing yourself a favor and saving! If you want to find out how much you have saved, just subtract the Bucket Balance from your account balances. I disagree. Ensuring your bucket balances equal your account balances is the money flow equivalent of reconciling your bank accounts. Sure, if the bank says I have more money in my account than I think I should, I'm happy, but that's still not a good place to be in. It means some mistake was made somewhere and it may come back to bite me eventually. Yes we should all spend less than we earn, but that should be a conscience decision, not an artifact of mistakes we've made in data entry. I still think MoneyWell should enforce this check by default as it is a huge stumbling block for new users. There could be a preference option for turning it off if you really want to, although I have yet to hear a compelling case for why you'd intentionally let your account balances diverge from your bucket balances. -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
Yes. The fact that there's not a mathematical connection between bank balance and bucket balance is the one thing that keeps me from using MoneyWell--it boils down to simply not trusting it! (The fact that I'm still reading this forum shows that I really would like to have it be my One True Solution!) Danno, Let's be honest, there's no such thing as software that can 100% prevent or compensate for user error. You can just as easily make mistakes in assigning categories with other programs, and not realize it. If you're waiting on a magical program that guarantees it can protect you from yourself, you'll be spending a lot of time visiting a lot of forums. Thanks to the others for talking about where you're having problems with buckets. I can definitely see your frustration, and agree that it's not easy to catch these problems. I do see how a computer check to look over your shoulder with each entry would help you, but again, I don't think it would be helpful to all users. Also, it already isn't too difficult to accomplish a check manually. As to Lance's question about why those of us with hidden savings are not having problems like this, please let me try to answer, though these are just my experiences. First of all, I think this approach turns our savings into a hidden buffer like Blair was talking about. Our savings is basically the difference between our cash-flow account balances and our bucket balance (spending money), and therefore is fluid. If I make an error, it adds to or subtracts from my savings. On the other hand, if I had a rigid bucket that kept track of my savings, then an error will either print new money for me, or throw my money into a black hole. By not accounting for my savings, I am taking on the risk of losing some of my savings without intending to, which I realize is not for everyone. This is an automatic compensation for errors, however, and I'm making the risky assumption that screw-ups are equal-opportunity, and I'll add about as much as I take out. Yet I set myself up to spend a bit less than I make, so this buffer is always growing, and it would take a rather magnificent error to wipe out my savings. I consider myself very good about measuring twice and cutting once, though. I think regular reconciling does a good job of catching a lot of errors, but agree that the greatest danger lies in transfers. Applying buckets in this context is more conceptual than regular deposits and withdrawals. I think Kevin and Judy did a pretty good job of explaining this, but it is not easy to grasp, and is easy prey for errors. Again, though, I think my systems helps me a little bit with catching some errors in transfers. Some of my paycheck is allocated to a Savings bucket, which is quickly spent by transferring to my savings account. If I applied the bucket to the wrong end of the transfer, rather than a $0, tipped-over bucket, I would see an upright bucket with twice as much money in it as I normally allocate. Or, if I double- assigned buckets, then the bucket balance wouldn't have budged. That's convenient visual feedback to me that I botched something, which is already built into MoneyWell. If I instead kept track of my savings in a Savings bucket, then I might very well miss this change, as it would be a small percentage of my savings, and have no bucket visual feedback. I have a lot of confidence in this system, and my ability to catch errors, but I realize there is some risk that would stress people out. Personally, however, trying to make sure every single part of MoneyWell balances all the time would stress me out a lot more. It's nice that we have a choice, though. :) //D --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
into a black hole. By not accounting for my savings, I am taking on the risk of losing some of my savings without intending to, which I realize is not for everyone. This is an automatic compensation for errors, however, and I'm making the risky assumption that screw-ups are equal-opportunity, and I'll add about as much as I take out. Yet I set myself up to spend a bit less than I make, so this buffer is always growing, and it would take a rather magnificent error to wipe out my savings. I consider myself very good about measuring twice and cutting once, though. Drew, Thanks for your continued discussion. I did have a question How does your buffer keep growing? Is it because you create some deposits and don't assign them to buckets? It seems like the buffer should remain relatively static, assuming errors are equal opportunity, or not made at all, unless somehow you intentionally bring money in to your cash-flow accounts that you don't make available to a bucket. Even if you leave some of the money in an income bucket, it's still accounted for--in fact this is how I ensure I have a buffer--I just allocate to my expense buckets less than I bring in each month. How do you ensure that your buffer grows? Thanks! blair --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
Even if you leave some of the money in an income bucket, it's still accounted for--in fact this is how I ensure I have a buffer--I just allocate to my expense buckets less than I bring in each month. How do you ensure that your buffer grows? Blair, I think I might have switched the meaning of buffer on you, sorry. I was basically describing savings as a buffer for any data entry errors. If a mistake made me think I had more money to spend than I intended, then this would be absorbed by savings. Since I save some every month (the Savings bucket is part of my paycheck's Spending Plan), my savings is always growing, thus a more fantastic error can be absorbed (not that I expect this to happen). I actually don't allocate every penny of income, much like you describe, and leave that for discretionary manual allocating. It's nice to have this little bit in case I need to do some cleanup at the end of the month. And if I don't use it, that just means more for the next month. It's only a few dollars, though. There are a lot of neat ways to trick yourself into saving more, or into feeling like you have more to spend. :) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 18, 1:18 pm, The Watkinson Family thewatkins...@mac.com wrote: Was there another situation where you would want to query money flows? Hey Blair, Maybe I misunderstood what you were suggesting in an earlier post. How do you propose we could use smart buckets to display the difference between account balances and bucket balances if we don't have the ability to query money flows? -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 18, 1:42 pm, Druzyne drew.k...@gmail.com wrote: As to Lance's question about why those of us with hidden savings are not having problems like this, please let me try to answer, though these are just my experiences. Hey Drew, Thanks for explaining your system a little more. It's definitely not for me (although I used to do something similar several years ago), but I see why some people would prefer it. It can be nice to be a little more loose with your finances if you're willing to risk a little savings to cover yourself. For me, I've been bit too many times so I prefer having every cent tracked. But this is not for everyone. It's great that MoneyWell allows you to choose either method, but I still think there could be some better guidance for new users. Present both of these methods (plus any others that are popular) along with the pros/cons and let users make a conscience decision rather than ending up in a place they didn't necessarily intend. Good conversion though! I'm just afraid this will disappear into the sea of Google Groups posts and won't help the new users who come around in a few months. -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
Lance, My hope is that smart buckets would allow you to display either bucket balance or the number of transactions (only the latter is displayed now). A smart bucket which included all reconciled, cleared, open, and pending transactions from my selected cash-flow accounts will reflect the total projected balance of all my accounts at the end of the month (based on future pending transaction entered). If my document is balanced, this bucket should also reflect the same value that is depicted at the bottom of the screen buckets balance. Would it need to be anything more complicated than this? Or is there something I'm missing? Alternatively, if the smart bucket were to include all transactions from cash-flow accounts that weren't assigned to buckets as well as non-cash flow account transactions that are assigned to a bucket, a balanced document would have a $0 smart bucket total -- this method won't detect errors in initial setup, but it should detect accrued errors since the initial cash flow was established. At least, I think i should. Blair On Apr 18, 2009, at 10:53 PM, Lance wrote: On Apr 18, 1:18 pm, The Watkinson Family thewatkins...@mac.com wrote: Was there another situation where you would want to query money flows? Hey Blair, Maybe I misunderstood what you were suggesting in an earlier post. How do you propose we could use smart buckets to display the difference between account balances and bucket balances if we don't have the ability to query money flows? -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
That's fine and could be achieved by putting an option to disable the checking in the preferences if you truly did not want it. My argument is that this type of checking should be enabled by DEFAULT, as this seems to be a common stumbling block for new users. Lance, man, give it up. I don't know how I can put this more plainly: buckets represent different things to different people. They were cleverly designed to be very flexible, and thus allow users to ascribe their own meaning to them. I don't believe anything should be done to make them more rigid, and certainly not as a default. It's exactly your argument that I disagree with, as I believe users should not be forced into a particular perspective. Whatever your goals are, it's up to you to manage your buckets in whatever way helps you achieve these goals. I see buckets as representing only money I want to spend, and you see them as representing all of your money – BOTH are valid. I'm sure there are dozens of other interpretations. Even if a majority of users agree with your interpretation, there's no reason it should be imposed as the default use of buckets for all users. It might cause someone to miss a use case that would be more meaningful to them, especially if they don't realize the behavior is something controlled as a preference. //Drew --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 17, 6:52 am, Druzyne drew.k...@gmail.com wrote: Lance, man, give it up. I don't know how I can put this more plainly: buckets represent different things to different people. They were cleverly designed to be very flexible, and thus allow users to ascribe their own meaning to them. I don't believe anything should be done to make them more rigid, and certainly not as a default. It's exactly your argument that I disagree with, as I believe users should not be forced into a particular perspective. Whatever your goals are, it's up to you to manage your buckets in whatever way helps you achieve these goals. You've obviously missed my point, but I don't really care anymore. If you've been following the posts to this forum the past few months, it's obvious that this has been a recurring problem for new users and needs to be addressed. Enforcing a balance check is one way to solve it. If you have a better way to solve it, by all means, please suggest one. If not, I don't see how you can argue that letting the majority of new users repeatedly run into the same problem again and again is better than catering to the small fraction of users who don't want this checking. If you understand the program well enough to decide that you don't want this checking, I don't see why checking a box in the preferences is that big of a deal for you. On the other hand, asking new users who don't yet understand the program to have to configure things a certain way to avoid common pitfalls just doesn't make sense. -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
Lance, I've not missed your point, and I understand that you want new users to not experience the same frustration you obviously did. I'm saying I think you're extending your experience into assumptions about everyone's experiences and expectations, and the forums have perhaps fueled this confirmation bias. I don't think you can presume to know the extent to which this is a problem for others, nor presume to demand that MoneyWell should compensate for it when doing such pushes a specific paradigm. The solution doesn't HAVE to be a new MoneyWell feature! In my opinion, the ultimate solution is not the super-convenient one you or some others might want: PATIENCE. MoneyWell already has the tools to easily check that that buckets and accounts are equal, as you discovered with a little time (for those that didn't see Lance's explanation before, see his post here: http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software/browse_thread/thread/b7c787fbad98aec6/74874dbce17d156d). I'm not too lazy to uncheck a box, I just think new users should have the freedom to think buckets represent something besides exact account balances, and first impressions are important. I think most trial users of MoneyWell seem to intuitively know that this is something that can work for them, and are willing to give it time to figure it out. It does require some time and effort, but everyone seems to eventually make sense of the bucket system, and love how it works to their advantage! //D --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 17, 12:31 pm, Druzyne drew.k...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not too lazy to uncheck a box, I just think new users should have the freedom to think buckets represent something besides exact account balances, and first impressions are important. I think most trial users of MoneyWell seem to intuitively know that this is something that can work for them, and are willing to give it time to figure it out. It does require some time and effort, but everyone seems to eventually make sense of the bucket system, and love how it works to their advantage! I will agree that having flexibility is a good thing and the more strictly MoneyWell imposes any particular usage model, the more likely it is to frustrate some people. However, I think one of the weaknesses of MoneyWell is giving new users too many choices. There are several key decisions you need to make when using MoneyWell and these are not clearly enumerated and most users don't realize the pitfalls in some of the choices they end up making. Perhaps the solution is simply to have a Getting Started guide that walks you through this process or some kind of wizard-type interface when you open MoneyWell for the first time. Sure, most people can eventually figure things out by trial error or reading through these posts, but that's an incredibly inefficient way to learn how to use a program. How many users have simply given up without ever posting to this email list? And in the end, whether or not MoneyWell enforces any kind of checking by default is totally up to Kevin based on his view of what most users want. For me, I'd just like to see the checking capability built in somewhere, and I honestly don't care if it's on by default or not. I'm fine checking a box in Preferences or hell, even using Terminal to hack some file to enable it. While I still have not heard a compelling reason why someone would really need to disable this checking, I have no problem if that's what some people want to do because they find the checking annoying. -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
It's kind of interesting to me actually. If you put this discussion into the socio-political genre. Lance, you are a Democrat and Druzyne you are a Republican. Seriously though, you guys both raise great points. Seeing that Kevin does not like preferences very much in his programs. I am guessing that you won't see that wish anytime soon. How about something maybe not so obtuse and intrusive. Perhaps a flag that shows up at the bottom or it changes color or something. Great discussion. This is what the forums are all about. : ] Dave On Apr 17, 4:30 pm, Lance goo...@lancegeiger.com wrote: On Apr 17, 12:31 pm, Druzyne drew.k...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not too lazy to uncheck a box, I just think new users should have the freedom to think buckets represent something besides exact account balances, and first impressions are important. I think most trial users of MoneyWell seem to intuitively know that this is something that can work for them, and are willing to give it time to figure it out. It does require some time and effort, but everyone seems to eventually make sense of the bucket system, and love how it works to their advantage! I will agree that having flexibility is a good thing and the more strictly MoneyWell imposes any particular usage model, the more likely it is to frustrate some people. However, I think one of the weaknesses of MoneyWell is giving new users too many choices. There are several key decisions you need to make when using MoneyWell and these are not clearly enumerated and most users don't realize the pitfalls in some of the choices they end up making. Perhaps the solution is simply to have a Getting Started guide that walks you through this process or some kind of wizard-type interface when you open MoneyWell for the first time. Sure, most people can eventually figure things out by trial error or reading through these posts, but that's an incredibly inefficient way to learn how to use a program. How many users have simply given up without ever posting to this email list? And in the end, whether or not MoneyWell enforces any kind of checking by default is totally up to Kevin based on his view of what most users want. For me, I'd just like to see the checking capability built in somewhere, and I honestly don't care if it's on by default or not. I'm fine checking a box in Preferences or hell, even using Terminal to hack some file to enable it. While I still have not heard a compelling reason why someone would really need to disable this checking, I have no problem if that's what some people want to do because they find the checking annoying. -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 17, 2009, at 7:19 PM, Dave wrote: Seriously though, you guys both raise great points. Seeing that Kevin does not like preferences very much in his programs. I am guessing that you won't see that wish anytime soon. How about something maybe not so obtuse and intrusive. Perhaps a flag that shows up at the bottom or it changes color or something. What I'm reviewing is a way to give people feedback on the bucket total without stressing everyone out with a big red alert. The account reconcile process is very tried and true but reconciling money flows is a bit new. I do like the idea of having MoneyWell help with this process (part of the reason I put the total at the window bottom) but I want to make sure I can automate this enough so the learning curve is shallow. The bottom line is that MoneyWell has survived for a couple of years without this and will be very useful a bit longer while I work out the final logistics and user interface. Version 1.5 has some very nice improvements planned and the iPhone version is starting to work like MoneyWell. Lots of good stuff in the works. ;) Great discussion. This is what the forums are all about. I agree. Nice to see a healthy exchange of ideas! Peace, Kevin Hoctor ke...@nothirst.com No Thirst Software LLC http://nothirst.com http://kevinhoctor.blogspot.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
I stayed out of this for a while. Here is my one thought: I don't want ANY savings money showing up in ANY bucket as buckets are what I am filling up to SPEND. If I see it in green it is mine to spend. Call me weak all you want. I won't argue, but please don't make me work in a way that will put me back into the dark days. One of the key points supporting this is the ability to start over. MoneyWell let's you try things until you prove them. Then you can wipe the slate and start over (change the starting date). If you are going to enforce balance == bucket balance then some of us are up creek with no paddle. Especialy those of us who are still trying to figure things out. So if you do enforce integrity please give some of us the ability to ignore integrity to some extent. Jaysen On Apr 17, 8:30 pm, Kevin Hoctor ke...@nothirst.com wrote: On Apr 17, 2009, at 7:19 PM, Dave wrote: Seriously though, you guys both raise great points. Seeing that Kevin does not like preferences very much in his programs. I am guessing that you won't see that wish anytime soon. How about something maybe not so obtuse and intrusive. Perhaps a flag that shows up at the bottom or it changes color or something. What I'm reviewing is a way to give people feedback on the bucket total without stressing everyone out with a big red alert. The account reconcile process is very tried and true but reconciling money flows is a bit new. I do like the idea of having MoneyWell help with this process (part of the reason I put the total at the window bottom) but I want to make sure I can automate this enough so the learning curve is shallow. The bottom line is that MoneyWell has survived for a couple of years without this and will be very useful a bit longer while I work out the final logistics and user interface. Version 1.5 has some very nice improvements planned and the iPhone version is starting to work like MoneyWell. Lots of good stuff in the works. ;) Great discussion. This is what the forums are all about. I agree. Nice to see a healthy exchange of ideas! Peace, Kevin Hoctor ke...@nothirst.com No Thirst Software LLChttp://nothirst.comhttp://kevinhoctor.blogspot.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 17, 2009, at 9:17 PM, Jaysen wrote: So if you do enforce integrity please give some of us the ability to ignore integrity to some extent. I started using MW pre 1.0 because it was great then. Downloading didn't exist yet, so now it's fabulous. Right from the get-go I used only moneyflows for keeping track of spending and making sure I had funds allocated for upcoming expenses. Plain and simple, my buckets told me all I needed to know. I never looked at my checking account balance because it told me nothing. Oh sure, it told me what my bank balance was at any point in time according to all my manual entries, but that didn't mean anything either since there were never ending delays as to when any transaction might show up at the bank. OK, so now we have downloading capabilities, Now I don't have to do hardly any manual entries. Plus downloading automatically updates my checking account balance, almost. New transactions that show up at the bank that day are listed under Pending. They don't get finalized at the bank until the next business day. So even though the bank may show it to be pending, those transactions aren't available for downloading until the next business day. So right there that means my buckets and what MW shows as a balance in my checking account isn't real. So what's the point of constantly trying to verify my buckets against my account? I do not use MW to spend time constantly worrying whether my moneyflows are accurate. When I move money from one bucket to another, I have to take it on faith that Kevin doesn't sneak in some vicious code to screw his customers. Either adding and subtracting works in MW or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then I can never trust MW to be accurate, so I'd stop using it because it's crap. Well, I'm still using it. Even if, somehow, my moneyflows became totally useless at any point in time, I can always restart at the beginning the current month with a clean slate. That's the only time I have to make sure my buckets equal my bank balance. I use MW to keep track of the accounting for three businesses, mine and two for my son. MW is a dream machine for business accounting, even though Kevin didn't design it for that. But the moneyflow feature is the reason I bought MoneyWell instead of any of the other Mac accounting apps, and I tried a few of them. All the other non- envelope method apps are backward looking, showing me where I've been. All the other envelope method apps I used were just too darn complicated and confusing. I was constantly wondering where I stood because the User Interfaces were so unfriendly. As far as I'm concerned, Kevin has nailed it: simple, elegant, and down right easy on the brain. I do screen all downloaded transactions. I also attach scanned receipts to all expense transactions that are random, non-recurring. Bank transactions are handled by the bank, and MW provides me a copy in the transaction registers for my records. I don't worry about that part unless an error shows up.Bottom line, I don't concern myself very much with the banking part, that's past history. My daily concern is moneyflow and what's coming up. I trust MoneyWell for that part of business finances. Terry Norton I started off with nothing...I still have most of it left. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
Druzyne you are a Republican Ouch. ;) Glad to have some other voices jump in, though! What I'm reviewing is a way to give people feedback on the bucket total without stressing everyone out with a big red alert. The account reconcile process is very tried and true but reconciling money flows is a bit new. I do like the idea of having MoneyWell help with this process (part of the reason I put the total at the window bottom) but I want to make sure I can automate this enough so the learning curve is shallow. Yes! I very much appreciate avoiding alarms that will stress me out. Also, I think the idea of reconciling money flows has merit, as users should have confidence in their bucket amounts, however I obviously don't think matching balances is the best way to accomplish this. I can't exactly figure out what reconciling would reveal, other than transfers that were double-assigned. A smart bucket could target that. What else is tripping people up? Version 1.5 has some very nice improvements planned and the iPhone version is starting to work like MoneyWell. Lots of good stuff in the works. ;) WOOHOO!!! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
If all transactions have been assigned to buckets, if you do not have any transfers (transfers require special consideration), and you do not have any Future Pending transactions, then the problem must be with your cash flow. You can add up all the money that you had in your buckets vs the money that you had in accounts on the day that you started tracking cash flow (always the beginning of the month). These two sums will most likely differ by 59 cents. To fix the difference adjust your Initial Cash Flow amount by 59 cents (Edit - Change Cash Flow Start Date, change the Amount field). Blair On Apr 15, 2009, at 10:12 PM, Dave wrote: I know it's not the cash account. And, I have gone through all my transactions and all of them are assigned to a bucket, what would reflect properly? And how would I find that. Lastly, what would indicate that I made a mistake on my starting cash flow? Thanks! On Apr 15, 10:55 pm, Dave oneblessed...@gmail.com wrote: Is there a good way to track which of those it could be? Thanks! Dave, Usually these are caused by transaction that has not been assigned properly to a bucket or a starting cash flow amount that didn't exactly match with your total account balances at that time. Sometimes this has to do with your cash account. Peace, Kevin Hoctor ke...@nothirst.com No Thirst Software LLChttp://nothirst.comhttp:// kevinhoctor.blogspot.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 15, 2009, at 10:12 PM, Dave wrote: I know it's not the cash account. And, I have gone through all my transactions and all of them are assigned to a bucket, what would reflect properly? And how would I find that. Dave, If your pennies off, then it's probably an odd money flow. Click on the income bucket(s) you used to do allocations and start looking at the recent money flows in the Bucket Detail to the right. Do you have any with odd change amounts that could be the problem? Next look at other buckets that you may have moved money between. Lastly, what would indicate that I made a mistake on my starting cash flow? If you look at your available cash (total of all spending accounts including your cash account) on that date, it should match your starting cash flow amount exactly. Peace, Kevin Hoctor ke...@nothirst.com No Thirst Software LLC http://nothirst.com http://kevinhoctor.blogspot.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
Okay I give up. I found a few transfers that were labeled with buckets (big no-no!) and fixed those. Now I have an entirely different difference between the two. It is something like 26.07. I searched for it and can't find anything. Anybody got a suggestion? TIA On Apr 16, 7:43 am, Kevin Hoctor ke...@nothirst.com wrote: On Apr 15, 2009, at 10:12 PM, Dave wrote: I know it's not the cash account. And, I have gone through all my transactions and all of them are assigned to a bucket, what would reflect properly? And how would I find that. Dave, If your pennies off, then it's probably an odd money flow. Click on the income bucket(s) you used to do allocations and start looking at the recent money flows in the Bucket Detail to the right. Do you have any with odd change amounts that could be the problem? Next look at other buckets that you may have moved money between. Lastly, what would indicate that I made a mistake on my starting cash flow? If you look at your available cash (total of all spending accounts including your cash account) on that date, it should match your starting cash flow amount exactly. Peace, Kevin Hoctor ke...@nothirst.com No Thirst Software LLChttp://nothirst.comhttp://kevinhoctor.blogspot.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 16, 9:02 am, Dave oneblessed...@gmail.com wrote: Okay I give up. I found a few transfers that were labeled with buckets (big no-no!) and fixed those. Now I have an entirely different difference between the two. It is something like 26.07. I searched for it and can't find anything. Anybody got a suggestion? TIA I ran into issues like this several times when I first started using MoneyWell so I now verify my accounts balances equal my bucket balances every time I use MoneyWell so I catch these mistakes the same day I make them. I wish MoneyWell would enforce this type of checking by default because tracking down these mistakes weeks after they were made can be a painful process. Not sure if this will help, but I've found the following have been the various sources of account balances not equaling my bucket balances: 1) Future pending transactions: make sure these (with an orange background) are not showing. Of course if you're only off by 53 cents, this probably isn't your problem. 2) Not selecting all accounts: make sure you select all of your spending accounts when doing the compare. But again, this would probably put you off by more than 53 cents. 3) Unbucketed transactions: make sure all transactions have a bucket, except for transfers between spending accounts (transfers from a spending account to a non-spending account should have a bucket on one side though) 4) Duplicate transactions/incorrect amounts: if you set up future transactions and then download from your bank, this can be a frequent problem. Reconcile your accounts to help catch these. 5) Split transactions: I've run into numerous problems with split transactions. If you have any of these, review each one and make sure all their children have buckets and the same date and transaction status (Open/Cleared/Reconciled) and the total amount is correct. If all of those check out, perhaps your starting cash flow balance is off as already suggested. Is this the first time you've compared balances, or did they used to match and they just recently started diverging? If you really want to track this down, it's possible to use some SQL to go back in time and calculate your account balances and bucket balances for past days and find where you started diverging (I posted a thread about this a few weeks back). Of course, at this point it might just be simpler to start over with a new cash flow balance from the beginning of this month and make sure you keep an eye on the balances going forward. -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
I was wondering exactly what would cause your Bucket Balance to be different than you Balance (at the bottom of MW) and then also versus the balance listed for that account in the top left account list. This is probably very simple and I should know it but I cannot find a 53 cent difference between them and I don't know why. The Bucket Balance can differ from the other balances because it takes into account ALL transactions with buckets assigned, including pending transactions, and transfers. The top left Balance includes only the transactions that are not Pending, and the bottom Balance only includes transactions up to the day you have selected in the Transaction List. My suggestion to you, and others, is to only worry if the Bucket Balance exceeds your account balances. If the Bucket Balance is less, and you only focus on your bucket balances, that simply means you're spending less money than you have available, which should be your goal anyways. So don't worry!! You're doing yourself a favor and saving! If you want to find out how much you have saved, just subtract the Bucket Balance from your account balances. On the other hand, if your Bucket Balance exceeds your account balances, then you might not have been accurate with your starting cash flow amount, or your income amount. //Drew --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 16, 11:46 am, Druzyne drew.k...@gmail.com wrote: My suggestion to you, and others, is to only worry if the Bucket Balance exceeds your account balances. If the Bucket Balance is less, and you only focus on your bucket balances, that simply means you're spending less money than you have available, which should be your goal anyways. So don't worry!! You're doing yourself a favor and saving! If you want to find out how much you have saved, just subtract the Bucket Balance from your account balances. I disagree. Ensuring your bucket balances equal your account balances is the money flow equivalent of reconciling your bank accounts. Sure, if the bank says I have more money in my account than I think I should, I'm happy, but that's still not a good place to be in. It means some mistake was made somewhere and it may come back to bite me eventually. Yes we should all spend less than we earn, but that should be a conscience decision, not an artifact of mistakes we've made in data entry. I still think MoneyWell should enforce this check by default as it is a huge stumbling block for new users. There could be a preference option for turning it off if you really want to, although I have yet to hear a compelling case for why you'd intentionally let your account balances diverge from your bucket balances. -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 16, 3:15 pm, Druzyne drew.k...@gmail.com wrote: I very consciously made the decision to allow my Bucket Balance to be far below my account balances. To me, bucket amounts are what you have decided to spend, and I DO NOT want to spend every penny I own. Some of the money I have in savings I plan to spend, but most of it is money that should not factor into my plans for spending. That's perfectly fine and easily achievable by creating a Surplus or Savings bucket where you move this money into. That way all your balances still add up and you just treat funds in the Surplus bucket as off limits. IMO, this would be more straightforward than purposely creating an accounting hole to achieve the same thing. I'm not sure you really want to hide money from yourself. Fundamentally, however, bucket balances are meta-information separate from reality, and have different meaning for individual users. They are simply a tool for your goals, and it's up to you to form them into depictions of what you need to know. It's fine if you see them as another way of catching errors in data entry. I want buckets to allow me to save as much as possible, so it's useful for me to have balances that tell me I have less to spend than I actually do. Forcing this metadata to fit reality with default behavior, however, will disrupt its benefits to users like me. I guess I don't see what benefit you gain with this type of usage model. You can achieve the same thing while still accounting for every dollar without any extra effort as I mentioned above. If you purposely allocate only a subset of your account balances to your buckets, what do you do with the remainder? Just let it sit in your account? How do you track it? It would be very dangerous to spend or transfer any of it as you have no way to know how much extra is in there. In a physical envelope system, it's impossible to over-allocate as you wouldn't physically have the cash to put in an envelope, but MoneyWell offers no such protection. To me, letting your bucket balances diverge from your account balances is the same as never reconciling your checking account. If you don't periodically tie your MoneyWell data to reality, you will eventually get bit. -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 16, 4:01 pm, The Watkinson Family thewatkins...@mac.com wrote: On Apr 16, 2009, at 5:15 PM, Druzyne wrote: This one issue has been brought up at least as much as any other issue... and every time, it is very difficult to analyze the cause for out-of-balance relationships because of a variety of factors involved. What Lance says is true, however, that the checks are relatively mechanical and could be enforced by the program. Furthermore, most of the time, the reason the numbers are out of balance aren't due to intentional differences in starting cash flow, but usually because of a misunderstanding in how to apply transfers to buckets, or what starting cash flow is, or the nature of money flows, etc... If this is the case, a difference, even positive, isn't much of a comfort because this misunderstanding could create a negative relationship very quickly. Hey Blair, Looks like you just beat me to the reply, but I think we're basically saying the same thing. Representing every dollar in your spending accounts in a bucket (even if you don't intend to spend it) has many advantages and no real disadvantages. There ARE many disadvantages to not doing this, and I have yet to see a compelling advantage you would gain by not doing it. -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 16, 6:24 pm, Druzyne drew.k...@gmail.com wrote: For me, having a big lump just sitting in a Savings bucket makes it too tempting to tell myself it's alright to flow a little bit to another bucket and spend it. Out of sight, out of mind really does work for me - I'm forced to work with what I told myself I would spend, and decide where to make sacrifices. I can use simple math if I really have to know exactly how much I have saved, just like you can use simple math (or a few mouse clicks) to make sure buckets = accounts. Understood, but you could also mark the Surplus bucket as hidden to keep it out of sight, or as Blair suggested, MoneyWell could figure out what this surplus amount is when you first set up so you would still get the goodness of the checking. I think it's great that we all can use the same tool in different ways. Please don't force a concrete link that would impose a different way of thinking on me. I don't want to see red flags that my buckets are out of balance, when to me they are perfectly balanced. That's fine and could be achieved by putting an option to disable the checking in the preferences if you truly did not want it. My argument is that this type of checking should be enabled by DEFAULT, as this seems to be a common stumbling block for new users. If you really want to let your balances diverge, fine, but this should be a conscience decision and you should be aware of the pitfalls in doing so. Judging from the many posts to this group, most users are unintentionally creating divergences between their balances and getting confused. -Lance --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
On Apr 15, 2009, at 7:46 AM, Dave wrote: I was wondering exactly what would cause your Bucket Balance to be different than you Balance (at the bottom of MW) and then also versus the balance listed for that account in the top left account list. This is probably very simple and I should know it but I cannot find a 53 cent difference between them and I don't know why. Dave, Usually these are caused by transaction that has not been assigned properly to a bucket or a starting cash flow amount that didn't exactly match with your total account balances at that time. Sometimes this has to do with your cash account. Peace, Kevin Hoctor ke...@nothirst.com No Thirst Software LLC http://nothirst.com http://kevinhoctor.blogspot.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
Is there a good way to track which of those it could be? Thanks! Dave, Usually these are caused by transaction that has not been assigned properly to a bucket or a starting cash flow amount that didn't exactly match with your total account balances at that time. Sometimes this has to do with your cash account. Peace, Kevin Hoctor ke...@nothirst.com No Thirst Software LLChttp://nothirst.comhttp://kevinhoctor.blogspot.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[No Thirst Software] Re: Stupid Question: Bucket Balance vs. Balance
I know it's not the cash account. And, I have gone through all my transactions and all of them are assigned to a bucket, what would reflect properly? And how would I find that. Lastly, what would indicate that I made a mistake on my starting cash flow? Thanks! On Apr 15, 10:55 pm, Dave oneblessed...@gmail.com wrote: Is there a good way to track which of those it could be? Thanks! Dave, Usually these are caused by transaction that has not been assigned properly to a bucket or a starting cash flow amount that didn't exactly match with your total account balances at that time. Sometimes this has to do with your cash account. Peace, Kevin Hoctor ke...@nothirst.com No Thirst Software LLChttp://nothirst.comhttp://kevinhoctor.blogspot.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups No Thirst Software User Forum group. To post to this group, send email to no-thirst-software@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to no-thirst-software+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/no-thirst-software?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
