subject:"\[tw5\] Re\: \[TW5\] preventing tiddler\-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles"

On Tuesday, April 17, 2018 at 4:28:23 PM UTC+2, Brady77 wrote:
>
> ..
>
>> I use "real headings" at the tiddler body, which allows me to use the 
>> tiddler title as an "index" and I can change the heading as often as I 
>> want. "caption" and "subtitle" are very handy here.
>>
>> This works well with the above mentioned plugins, which don't break TWs, 
>> that don't use the plugins, if you copy your texts. (but the functionality 
>> will be different!)
>>
>  
> So you implemented something what Jeremy suggested in this thread above: 
> "...users should be able to use GUIDs for tiddler titles if it suits their 
> use case. The missing piece is a way of linking to a tiddler by it's 
> GUID/title, but having a specified field displayed as the text of the 
> link.". 
>

I did implement it, because I thought in "Globally changing internal links 
to display caption text if possible 
?" Mark S. 
came up with a brilliant Idea, that used the wrong field. ... 
and some other threads, pushed me to add the alias-functions to uni-link, 
to cover it in one plugin. .. 
 

> This is exact opposite to what Felix'es suggests by using "IDs" for GUIDs. 
>

May be. 

-m

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

On Friday, April 20, 2018 at 3:51:55 PM UTC+2, PMario wrote:
>
> ...
> Especially Jeremy's last post, which I'll quote here, because I like his 
> consistency over the years :)
>
> On Friday, September 9, 2011 at 2:55:44 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>
>> ... We can work around the lack of a
>> human readable title by, say, adopting the convention of a "display
>> title" field.
>
>
I used "subtitle" as a name, because I think it "naturally" fits, for this 
usecase. I thought if a Wiki can have a Subtitle. A tiddler can have one 
too ;)

-m

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 at 3:07:56 PM UTC+2, Brady77 wrote:
>
> @PMario: 
>
> I spent some time with the uni-link plugin to see how it works for me. 
>

good.
 

> First I have to say that it is very close to be a good workaround for 
> "broken links" problem. 
>

It was developed and introduced 
for
 
this type of problems. 
A bit of development history: Globally changing internal links to display 
caption text if possible 
? (only 
click it if you have time)
 

> I have a couple of questions. 
>
>1. In the advanced search
>   - Can I use caption / subtitle values in the standard search tab?
>
> Not atm. .. But it should be easy to implement. ... That's 1 reason I 
wrote "partially" in my first reply. ... 
 

>
>- Is it possible to display the results from the filter as a list of 
>   captions / subtitles?
>
> Yes, ... Someone would need to create it. ... 1 more reason, why I think 
uni-link plugin isn't ripe for the core  yet ;)
 

>
>1. I tried your "stant-01" theme as well. 
>   - Is possible in the edit mode to show the tiddler title as a field 
>   at the bottom and hide it at the top?
>
>
Sure. It's an opinionated theme already.  You would just need to open: 
the tags/EditTemplate 
 tiddler and 
modify the list field. Move the second element to the end of the list.  
BUT ... It looks strange. IMO some more UI tweaking would be needed. 

have fun!
mario

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

Hi folks, 
Very interesting discussion going on. 

@Brady
Sorry for being silent even if directly mentioned. ... But I think some of 
your early questions about uni-link have been answered by others, in the 
same way, as I would have done it. ..

The tiddler.title discussion isn't new. If you search for UUID in this 
group you'll get discussions dating back to 2011, where TiddlyWiki 5 wasn't 
born yet :) (Click this link 

and scroll down)

I have been involved in most of them, so I thought, I'll shut up this time 
and see what's going on. 

There is only one (short) thread that I want to point out: Federated wiki 
and tw 

Especially Jeremy's last post, which I'll quote here, because I like his 
consistency over the years :)

On Friday, September 9, 2011 at 2:55:44 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> For what it's worth, my take on tiddler GUIDs is to acknowledge that
> they are sometimes useful, but note that it is already possible to use
> a GUID string as the title for tiddlers, and that GUIDed tiddlers can
> co-exist with ordinary tiddlers. We can work around the lack of a
> human readable title by, say, adopting the convention of a "display
> title" field.
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Jeremy
>

more replies will follow. 

-mario

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-19 Thread TonyM

Brady77,

Forgive my delayed response, although you may see additional contributions 
in this thread.. Thanks for explaining what you are trying to do. I 
understand what you are trying to do because networking in one of my areas 
since I have being in IT for some time. I recently did some training on 
BigData which would be similar to your learning curve. 

I adopted TiddlyWiki Classic many years ago and still maintain a knowledge 
base in it but are gradually moving features and functionality into TW5.

I am confident it is only if you use [[embedded links]] or 
{{transclusions}} that you are likely to come across this problem because 
you can rename titles with no loss. 

A Common technique I use is the new here so lets say you have a "Security" 
subject, go to the Security tiddler and go new here to add security items, 
or tag them with Security. By always having a tag of the "parent" tiddler 
at a minimum you will always be able to list items so tagged. Renaming them 
changes nothing, except if they are listed in alphabetical order. You can 
also use the list field and a drag-able list such as a dragable table of 
Contents. Most of the time I access technical info I first search "titles" 
and "Text" then open even a related tiddler, then use the tags to refine 
the tiddlers I am looking at. Eg; I may search for Static IP Address, find 
a tiddler that mentions their use and is tagged security, open the Security 
tag/tiddler and review that list to find "Using Static Routes" (for 
Security).

Now if you feel a title is no longer valid copy the old title into the text 
so if you searched for it again you would find it, then modify the title.

Regards
Tony

On Wednesday, 18 April 2018 23:07:56 UTC+10, Brady77 wrote:
>
> @PMario: 
>
> I spent some time with the uni-link plugin to see how it works for me. 
> First I have to say that it is very close to be a good workaround for 
> "broken links" problem. I have a couple of questions. 
>
>1. In the advanced search
>   - Can I use caption / subtitle values in the standard search tab?
>   - Is it possible to display the results from the filter as a list 
>   of captions / subtitles?
>2. I tried your "stant-01" theme as well. 
>   - Is possible in the edit mode to show the tiddler title as a field 
>   at the bottom and hide it at the top?
>
> @ Mark.S
> Point 2 is probably close to what you have mentioned earlier as well.
>
> @ TonyM
> Thanks for offering your help as well. I'm building my personal knowledge 
> base to so I can be more effective at my job. I work as an network engineer 
> and I'm dealing with quite complex information. Partly I have to deeply 
> understand some networking topics, partly to remember some workflows 
> (tutorials, how-tos, guides etc.). This knowledge changes quite often as 
> the technology evolves and so I need my tiddlers to reflect those changes 
> as well. This is especially true while studying something new: at the 
> beginning I decide for a name of tiddler and later I realize that this name 
> is completely wrong (just becase I knew almost nothing about the topic at 
> the beginning). To put it simple: I need some flexibility to only at 
> modifying the text field, but also by naming the tiddlers. I can certainly 
> live with the uni-link plugin regarding the "broken-links" problem. But 
> there are some important functions that lack the support for captions / 
> subtitles (see my questions at the beginning). So we can discuss it further.
>
> @Jeremy Ruston
> Hi Jeremy! 
>
>1. Sorry I didn't get what you proposed (as well as @Miroslav Kalous). 
>What problem does it solve? Maybe some example will help. Thanks.
>2. Can you compare the difficulty of
>   - preparing a new release of TiddlyWiki that deals with tiddlers 
>   (and other building blocks) as objects that can be referenced 
> independently 
>   on the user text-fields? Same functionality as I mentioned above while 
>   talking about Airtable interface.
>   - fixing broken links and functions (filters, lists, macros etc) on 
>   the fly after the tiddler ID changed
>3. Could you explain in more detail what is the difference between 
>changing tiddler title and tag name? What if I use a tiddler as a tag?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Petr
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-19 Thread 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki



> On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 at 8:10:01 AM UTC-7, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>> IF the auto update of "list and tag fields" that happens when changing 
>> tiddler titles could be made to include other designated fields, (e.g. 
>> matching link-*) then the fields would be updated automatically whenever a 
>> corresponding title was changed.  
>>
>
Exactly that, it would be a very modest extension of the existing relinking 
> code.
>
>
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/core/modules/wiki-bulkops.js
>

Here's my version of bulkops. It borrows the option settings from "tags" 
for now.

-- Mark

/*\
title: $:/core/modules/wiki-bulkops.js
type: application/javascript
module-type: wikimethod

MAS notes: Attempt to implement auto-rename of link fields (e.g. link1-#). 
Changes marked as MAS


Bulk tiddler operations such as rename.

\*/
(function(){

/*jslint node: true, browser: true */
/*global $tw: false */
"use strict";

/*
Rename a tiddler, and relink any tags or lists that reference it.
*/
function renameTiddler(fromTitle,toTitle,options) {
fromTitle = (fromTitle || "").trim();
toTitle = (toTitle || "").trim();
options = options || {};
if(fromTitle && toTitle && fromTitle !== toTitle) {
// Rename the tiddler itself
var oldTiddler = this.getTiddler(fromTitle),
newTiddler = new $tw.Tiddler(oldTiddler,{title: toTitle},this.
getModificationFields());
newTiddler = $tw.hooks.invokeHook("th-renaming-tiddler",newTiddler,
oldTiddler);
this.addTiddler(newTiddler);
this.deleteTiddler(fromTitle);
// Rename any tags or lists that reference it
this.relinkTiddler(fromTitle,toTitle,options)
}
}

/*
Relink any tags or lists that reference a given tiddler
*/
function relinkTiddler(fromTitle,toTitle,options) {
var self = this;
fromTitle = (fromTitle || "").trim();
toTitle = (toTitle || "").trim();
options = options || {};
options.dontRenameLinkFields = options.dontRenameInTags ; // MAS -- 
until actual option is set up somewhere
if(fromTitle && toTitle && fromTitle !== toTitle) {
this.each(function(tiddler,title) {
var type = tiddler.fields.type || "";
// Don't touch plugins or JavaScript modules
// MAS adding 'fieldsWithLinks' for capturing fields that match 
pattern link-#
// MAS adding 'changedFieldLinks' which will be filled new 
link-# contents if reference link changes
if(!tiddler.fields["plugin-type"] && type !== 
"application/javascript") {
var tags = (tiddler.fields.tags || []).slice(0),
list = (tiddler.fields.list || []).slice(0),
fieldsWithLinks = findlinks(tiddler.fields,/link-/),
changedFieldLinks = {} ,
isModified = false;
if(!options.dontRenameInTags) {
// Rename tags
$tw.utils.each(tags,function (title,index) {
if(title === fromTitle) {
console.log("Renaming tag '" + tags[index] + "' to '" + toTitle + "' of 
tiddler '" + tiddler.fields.title + "'");
tags[index] = toTitle;
isModified = true;
}
});
}
 if(!options.dontRenameInLists) {
// Rename lists
$tw.utils.each(list,function (title,index) {
if(title === fromTitle) {
console.log("Renaming list item '" + list[index] + "' to '" + toTitle + "' 
of tiddler '" + tiddler.fields.title + "'");
list[index] = toTitle;
isModified = true;
}
});
}


if(!options.dontRenameLinkFields) { // MAS
// Rename link fields
var linkTitle ;
$tw.utils.each(fieldsWithLinks,function (linkset,index) 
{
linkTitle = (linkset.title || "").trim() ; 
if(linkTitle == fromTitle) {
console.log("DEBUG Renaming link item of field " 
+ linkset.field + " from '" + linkset.title +"' to '" + toTitle + "' of 
tiddler '" + tiddler.fields.title + "'");
changedFieldLinks[linkset.field] = toTitle;
isModified = true;
}
});
}

if(isModified) {
var newTiddler = new $tw.Tiddler(tiddler,
changedFieldLinks,{tags:tags, list: list},self.getModificationFields())
newTiddler = $tw.hooks.invokeHook("th-relinking-tiddler"
,newTiddler,tiddler);
self.addTiddler(newTiddler);
}
}
});
}
};


var findlinks = function(obj, filter) {
  var key, keys = [];
console.log("Object

[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-19 Thread TonyM

Mark,

I was thinking along those lines as well, I love an algorithmic challenge.

Some thoughts

In addition to your suggestion a "New Tiddler macro" or current tiddler 
"set ID" that assigns an ID in an additional field at *creation time* (see 
alternate below) could be used when and only when a tiddler needs to be 
referenced. 

An Edit toolbar helper like the current insert {{-}} or [[-]] or excise 
tool that inserts the <> from the *selected*  tiddler name would 
also make this almost transparent.

I just realised we already have and almost certainly unique identifier - 
creation date. On Creation, or before using as a link Extract that to the 
millisecond check no other tiddler exists with the same creation date (very 
unlikely with milliseconds) but if something else does just add 1 
millisecond until you find a unique creation date. Creation dates as a rule 
stay the same from that point forward, even when dragged to another Wiki. 
We can use this as the ID for references. Simply add a field to indicate a 
database name if the plan is to copy move to other wikis, and add this to 
the ID

Regards
Tony

On Thursday, April 19, 2018 at 1:10:34 AM UTC+10, Mark S. wrote:
>
> If you're going to fix the problem with macros, then you could just create 
> your own ID field with a regular distinct pattern ("A0001","A0002",ktc)
>
> Then use a macro like (though more sophisticated than):
>
> \define link(id desc) <$list 
> filter="[search:id[$id$]limit[1]]"><$link>$desc$
>
> And make your references like < World and Moby Dick">>
>
> Of course, then you have to remember to assign a unique id to anything 
> that you plan to link to.
>
> -- Mark
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-19 Thread Jeremy Ruston

Hi Brady

> Yes. Let me explain it by workflow. Say I start with a new TiddlyWiki:

OK, you’re describing what I think of as the “GUID approach”. It’s a nice 
pattern, and definitely resonates with a lot of users. I don’t see it as 
requiring a major change to the TW core design, though: it’s predominantly high 
level UI entities that would need to change (eg the edit template). Personally, 
I’m not a huge fan because of the unreadability of link targets, but I’d like 
TW5 to support it for those that want it.
>> fixing broken links and functions (filters, lists, macros etc) on the fly 
>> after the tiddler ID changed
> Do you mean by using search and replace?
> 
> No, Jeremy, I'm referring to the auto-correction processes that must run 
> behind the scenes each time I decide to change the tag or tiddler title. You 
> said that it is very difficult to parse all the wiki tiddlers correctly so 
> that only relevant parts are auto-magically changed to reflect the new title.

What I was driving at was that a naive search-and-replace algorithm would be 
insufficient in some situations. A syntax-aware search-and-replace mechanism 
isn’t too tricky: there’s already syntax-aware search in the form of the 
feature that extracts outgoing links from a tiddler. It does so by searching 
the tree resulting from parsing the text, rather than searching the text 
directly. Adding the replace part isn’t too tricky; in fact, it would probably 
be one of those things where the complexity isn’t in the mechanism but rather 
the user interface needed to drive it.

> Tags are probably much easier to change than the titles. 

Yes indeed, and TW already offers the ability to relink tags when renaming a 
tiddler.

> So I wanted to know your expert opinion: What is more difficult? 1) Change 
> the system so it works as described by the workflow above or 2) Try to find 
> the correct algorithm to auto-magically correct what is broken.

This feels like a false dichotomy. “Changing the system” implies that it 
wouldn’t work in the way that it does currently, which would be a problem from 
a backwards compatibility perspective. Perhaps the option is better expressed 
as “augment the system so it can work as described above”.

Anyhow, these aren’t mutually exclusive options. And of course there are also 
other important attributes beyond difficulty of implementation: simplicity, 
universality, risk, robustness, security.

But if you want to focus on implementation difficulty, option (a) touches many 
components of the system while (b) is a self-contained subsystem with well 
defined inputs and outputs. My experience suggests that the complexity of a 
software task depends primarily on the number of entities involved, and so I 
would be inclined to think of option (b) as being less difficult.

> Thanks for your time, Jeremy.

No problem, thank you for the thoughtful and interesting questions. These 
discussions are often illuminating.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

> PS: I'm well aware of all the workarounds that already exists (including the 
> uni-link plugin, special themes etc). I just want to know whether a system 
> change isn't more robust, user-friendly (avoiding errors and confusions, 
> installing special plugins), simpler, consistent and straightforward and 
> long-lasting than workarounds.



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Re: [tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-19 Thread Brady77

Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
>
>1. Can you compare the difficulty of
>   - preparing a new release of TiddlyWiki that deals with tiddlers 
>   (and other building blocks) as objects that can be referenced 
> independently 
>   on the user text-fields? Same functionality as I mentioned above while 
>   talking about Airtable interface.
>
> Are you asking about the ability to refer to a tiddler by a field other 
> than it’s title? 
>

Yes. Let me explain it by workflow. Say I start with a new TiddlyWiki:

1. Create my first tiddler with no title

1a. Hit the plus button

1b. Leave the title field empty

- by empty I mean nothing there - no prefilled title

1c. Type "My first lovely tiddler" into the textarea

1d. Save and close the tiddler

Notes:

- behind the scenes the tiddler gets some system values like an internal 
unique ID, created time-stamp, modified time-stamp, owner ID, last editor 
ID (you name it)

2. Want to see what I have now in my Wiki

2a. Go to right-side panel

2b. Visit the list of recent tiddlers

- there is one row on the list with title "*(empty)*" 

Notes: 

- the word "empty" in parentheses and italic indicates that there is no 
tiddler title filled in

3. Create another tiddler with a link to the first

3a. Leave the title field empty

3b. Go to the textarea and click the link button (or Ctrl-l)

- the modal shows me input field for searching

- below the input field there is a section called "5 recent tiddlers" with 
one row listed as *(empty)*

3d. Choose the row with title *(empty)*

- the textarea has now a clickable link shown as *(empty)*

3e. Type "My second lovely tiddler" on a row below the link 

3f. Save and close the tiddler

4. Revisit the list of recent tiddlers

- there are two rows now

- each row has the same title *(empty)*

5. Now I want to find my first tiddler via advanced search

5a. Click the magnifier icon from the right-side panel

5b. Go to the Standard search tab and type "lovely" there

- I get two rows with title *(empty)*

- oops: what to choose? no way to distinguish between those two tiddlers 
just by title *(empty)*

- have to make some corrections...

 6. Want to change the title of the first tiddler

6a. Select the tiddler at the bottom of the recent tiddlers list

- should be the first one that I added to my Wiki

6b. Open the tiddler for editing and enter "First one" into the title

6e. Save and close the tiddler

 7. Review the link in my second tiddler and change the title as well

7a. Select the only *(empty)* title from the recent tiddlers list

- the link title in the text area has changed already to "First one"

- clicking the link bring me to the tiddler First one - nothing is broken 

7b. Open second tiddler for editing and change the title from nothing to 
"Second"

7c. Save and close the second tiddler

>From the user perspective the "key" field remains the tiddler title. Output 
from important functions like searching are filtering remains the same: the 
tiddler title. But internally (for instance links between tiddlers) the 
system uses the tiddler ID for the URI. Should the interface be more geeky 
while creating links to avoid the link button, there could be an autofill 
function as you start typing [[. 

>
>- fixing broken links and functions (filters, lists, macros etc) on 
>   the fly after the tiddler ID changed
>
> Do you mean by using search and replace?
>

No, Jeremy, I'm referring to the auto-correction processes that must run 
behind the scenes each time I decide to change the tag or tiddler title. 
You said that it is very difficult to parse all the wiki tiddlers correctly 
so that only relevant parts are auto-magically changed to reflect the new 
title. Tags are probably much easier to change than the titles. 

So I wanted to know your expert opinion: What is more difficult? 1) Change 
the system so it works as described by the workflow above or 2) Try to find 
the correct algorithm to auto-magically correct what is broken.

Thanks for your time, Jeremy.

Petr

PS: I'm well aware of all the workarounds that already exists (including 
the uni-link plugin, special themes etc). I just want to know whether a 
system change isn't more robust, user-friendly (avoiding errors and 
confusions, installing special plugins), simpler, consistent and 
straightforward and long-lasting than workarounds.

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-18 Thread 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki

If you're going to fix the problem with macros, then you could just create 
your own ID field with a regular distinct pattern ("A0001","A0002",ktc)

Then use a macro like (though more sophisticated than):

\define link(id desc) <$list 
filter="[search:id[$id$]limit[1]]"><$link>$desc$

And make your references like <>

Of course, then you have to remember to assign a unique id to anything that 
you plan to link to.

-- Mark

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Re: [tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

Hi Mark

> But you still have to change all field references when you change a title, so 
> it seems like the same problem exists.

It’s much easier to whizz through all tiddlers looking for all the field names 
with a given prefix, and assign a new value, than it is to do a search and 
replace across the text field. The particular problem with search and replace 
is that it is very brittle. If I have a tiddler called “tiddler”, say, and 
rename it, I don’t want all the “<$tiddler>” widgets to also be reassigned.

> IF the auto update of "list and tag fields" that happens when changing 
> tiddler titles could be made to include other designated fields, (e.g. 
> matching link-*) then the fields would be updated automatically whenever a 
> corresponding title was changed.  

Exactly that, it would be a very modest extension of the existing relinking 
code.

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/master/core/modules/wiki-bulkops.js
 


Best wishes

Jeremy.

> 
> Thanks,
> -- Mark
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Re: [tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-18 Thread 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki



On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 at 7:41:47 AM UTC-7, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
>
> With this arrangement, one avoids having literal tiddler links within the 
> text, and can instead manipulate the link fields very easily.
>
>
But you still have to change all field references when you change a title, 
so it seems like the same problem exists.

IF the auto update of "list and tag fields" that happens when changing 
tiddler titles could be made to include other designated fields, (e.g. 
matching link-*) then the fields would be updated automatically whenever a 
corresponding title was changed.  

Thanks,
-- Mark

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Re: [tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

Hi Brady
> 
> Sorry I didn't get what you proposed (as well as @Miroslav Kalous). What 
> problem does it solve? Maybe some example will help. Thanks.
Perhaps my earlier reply helps?

> Can you compare the difficulty of
> preparing a new release of TiddlyWiki that deals with tiddlers (and other 
> building blocks) as objects that can be referenced independently on the user 
> text-fields? Same functionality as I mentioned above while talking about 
> Airtable interface.
Are you asking about the ability to refer to a tiddler by a field other than 
it’s title? 
> fixing broken links and functions (filters, lists, macros etc) on the fly 
> after the tiddler ID changed
Do you mean by using search and replace?
> Could you explain in more detail what is the difference between changing 
> tiddler title and tag name? What if I use a tiddler as a tag?
"Changing a tiddler title" actually means deleting it and recreating a new 
tiddler with the same fields but the new title. “Changing a tag name” means 
both:

* renaming a tiddler that is being used as a tag
* changing references to that tiddler in the “tags” field of other tiddlers

Best wishes

Jeremy

> Thank you.
> 
> Petr
> 
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Re: [tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

Hi Miroslav

> Jeremy, would you mind elaborating a bit further on the indirecting 
> workaround? From your short description I don't really understand how this 
> should work and be used (I am sorry my knowledge of TW is still limited). Do 
> you mean creating an arbitrary new field, i.e. named "link", and filling in 
> some number as its value? By "refer to them via a macro" you mean using the 
> macro in a place where a normal link with square brackets would normally be? 
> What if I change later the title ("The original document”).

Sorry for being cryptic. The idea is that:

* Links from one tiddler to another are represented as fields on the “from” 
tiddler whose name starts with “link-“ followed by a unique index, with the 
value of the field being the title of the target tiddler
* Links within the narrative text of the “from” tiddler are written via a macro 
that extracts the link target given the link index number, something along the 
line of:

\define link(number,text)
<$link to={{!!link-$number$}}>$text$
\end

With this arrangement, one avoids having literal tiddler links within the text, 
and can instead manipulate the link fields very easily.

> since the issue of Link Breakage is a perennial one, what about describing 
> existing workarounds and plugins on one page at tiddlywiki.com? It is 
> certainly an issue that deters some people from using TW (e.g. in 
> note-taking/Zettelkasten community). I am willing to put this page together - 
> but I don't get a lot of these workarounds yet. I can still prepare a draft 
> if somebody's gonna revise and finish and publish it.

The docs on tiddlywiki.com could certainly be improved, and we’d welcome 
contributions. I’m also open to improvements that make it easier to use both 
approaches:

* using the title field as a GUID and the caption field as the human readable 
title
* using search and replace to relink references to renamed titles

Best wishes

Jeremy.

> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 at 12:48:28 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
> Hi Brady
> 
> To clarify my earlier postings, my own view is that TiddlyWiki’s design in 
> the area of titles, IDs etc. is correct but incomplete.
> 
> Since the main thread we’ve added automated relinking of tags and lists, but 
> the big component that is still missing is a decent search and replace 
> operation that is syntactically aware; it can reliably find and replace all 
> the references to a tiddler (without being confused by plain text references 
> to the same text). Almost everything else that one might to change is within 
> the parts of TiddlyWiki’s UI that are expressed in wikitext.
> 
> In my own usage of TiddlyWiki I use a variety of techniques depending on the 
> situation. One technique that is useful when working with links embedded in 
> narrative text (as opposed to auto-generated links), is to indirect through a 
> field: put the target of a link in a field (eg, “link-0”, “link-1”, “link-2" 
> etc,) and then refer to them via a macro (eg, “< document’>>”).
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Jeremy.
> 
>> On 18 Apr 2018, at 11:31, Brady77 > wrote:
>> 
>> @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>> 
>> Part of the issue is the idea of creating a Tiddler gets easily conceptually 
>> confused with creating a data record. This is something I have written at 
>> length about--that TiddlyWiki is NOT a "card-index"--though you can make it 
>> look like one. 
>> 
>> Well, Josiah, I wasn't the one who came with the idea of creating a 
>> TiddlyWiki. Probably the best here would be asking Jeremy Ruston what was 
>> his initial vision and the intended usage of tiddlers and other basic 
>> building blocks. From your responses I feel I'm crossing some borders of 
>> fair-play when questioning basic functionality of the system. I really don't 
>> want to point at some dysfunction of the system that arises completely from 
>> my own misuse of TiddlyWiki. I'm well aware how much effort and time you 
>> spend to have a perfect system.  
>> 
>> Usually when you create a record in software it creates a unique protected 
>> ID for a new record separate from whatever its user fillable fields add.
>> 
>> This is exactly the behavior that I expected from TiddlyWiki. Let's have a 
>> look at the Airtable  app for instance that I use 
>> a lot for tabular data: Whenever you create a new record (a row in a table) 
>> it gets an internal ID that you don't see and cannot access for editing. You 
>> can even create an empty row in a table (that is perfectly correct)  and 
>> then create relationships from other tables just by pointing to the row. At 
>> the same time each table has a "key" column that is used to simplify the 
>> linking of records, searching or filtering. It is a fully functional 
>> structure to be modified to my needs. If you overwrite the value in the 
>> "key" cell than all the linked records in other tables are automatically 
>> updated as well. 
>>  
>> Not so with Tiddlers.

[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-18 Thread 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki



On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 at 6:07:56 AM UTC-7, Brady77 wrote: 

>
> Could you explain in more detail what is the difference between changing 
> tiddler title and tag name? What if I use a tiddler as a tag?
>

This part *has *been automated. If  a tiddler title is the same as a tag 
name, and you change the title, a small dialogue will appear below the 
title field offering to change all the tags to reflect this change.

" Update ** to ** in the *tags* and *list* fields 
of other tiddlers"

Of course, it won't be able to change the tag name in any macros you 
previously invoked or defined with "MyOldTitle".

-- Mark

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-18 Thread Brady77

@PMario:

I spent some time with the uni-link plugin to see how it works for me.
First I have to say that it is very close to be a good workaround for
"broken links" problem. I have a couple of questions.

1. In the advanced search
- Can I use caption / subtitle values in the standard search tab?
- Is it possible to display the results from the filter as a list of
captions / subtitles?
2. I tried your "stant-01" theme as well.
- Is possible in the edit mode to show the tiddler title as a field
at the bottom and hide it at the top?

@ Mark.S
Point 2 is probably close to what you have mentioned earlier as well.

@ TonyM
Thanks for offering your help as well. I'm building my personal knowledge
base to so I can be more effective at my job. I work as an network engineer
and I'm dealing with quite complex information. Partly I have to deeply
understand some networking topics, partly to remember some workflows
(tutorials, how-tos, guides etc.). This knowledge changes quite often as
the technology evolves and so I need my tiddlers to reflect those changes
as well. This is especially true while studying something new: at the
beginning I decide for a name of tiddler and later I realize that this name
is completely wrong (just becase I knew almost nothing about the topic at
the beginning). To put it simple: I need some flexibility to only at
modifying the text field, but also by naming the tiddlers. I can certainly
live with the uni-link plugin regarding the "broken-links" problem. But
there are some important functions that lack the support for captions /
subtitles (see my questions at the beginning). So we can discuss it further.

@Jeremy Ruston
Hi Jeremy!

1. Sorry I didn't get what you proposed (as well as @Miroslav Kalous).
What problem does it solve? Maybe some example will help. Thanks.
2. Can you compare the difficulty of
- preparing a new release of TiddlyWiki that deals with tiddlers (and
other building blocks) as objects that can be referenced independently on
the user text-fields? Same functionality as I mentioned above while
talking
about Airtable interface.
- fixing broken links and functions (filters, lists, macros etc) on
the fly after the tiddler ID changed
3. Could you explain in more detail what is the difference between
changing tiddler title and tag name? What if I use a tiddler as a tag?

Thank you.

Petr

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Re: [tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-18 Thread Miroslav Kalous

Jeremy, would you mind elaborating a bit further on the indirecting 
workaround? From your short description I don't really understand how this 
should work and be used (I am sorry my knowledge of TW is still limited). 
Do you mean creating an arbitrary new field, i.e. named "link", and filling 
in some number as its value? By "refer to them via a macro" you mean using 
the macro in a place where a normal link with square brackets would 
normally be? What if I change later the title ("The original document").

Moreover, 

since the issue of Link Breakage is a perennial one, what about *describing 
existing workarounds and plugins on one page at tiddlywiki.com*? It is 
certainly an issue that deters some people from using TW (e.g. in 
note-taking/Zettelkasten community). I am willing to put this page together 
- but I don't get a lot of these workarounds yet. I can still prepare a 
draft if somebody's gonna revise and finish and publish it.




On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 at 12:48:28 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Hi Brady
>
> To clarify my earlier postings, my own view is that TiddlyWiki’s design in 
> the area of titles, IDs etc. is correct but incomplete.
>
> Since the main thread we’ve added automated relinking of tags and lists, 
> but the big component that is still missing is a decent search and replace 
> operation that is syntactically aware; it can reliably find and replace all 
> the references to a tiddler (without being confused by plain text 
> references to the same text). Almost everything else that one might to 
> change is within the parts of TiddlyWiki’s UI that are expressed in 
> wikitext.
>
> In my own usage of TiddlyWiki I use a variety of techniques depending on 
> the situation. One technique that is useful when working with links 
> embedded in narrative text (as opposed to auto-generated links), is to 
> indirect through a field: put the target of a link in a field (eg, 
> “link-0”, “link-1”, “link-2" etc,) and then refer to them via a macro (eg, 
> “<>”).
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>
> On 18 Apr 2018, at 11:31, Brady77  wrote:
>
> @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>>
>> Part of the issue is the idea of creating a Tiddler gets easily 
>> conceptually confused with creating a data record. This is something I have 
>> written at length about--that TiddlyWiki is NOT a "card-index"--though you 
>> can make it look like one. 
>>
>
> Well, Josiah, I wasn't the one who came with the idea of creating a 
> TiddlyWiki. Probably the best here would be asking Jeremy Ruston what was 
> his initial vision and the intended usage of tiddlers and other basic 
> building blocks. From your responses I feel I'm crossing some borders of 
> fair-play when questioning basic functionality of the system. I really 
> don't want to point at some *dysfunction *of the system that arises 
> completely from *my own misuse of TiddlyWiki*. I'm well aware how much 
> effort and time you spend to have a perfect system.  
>
> Usually when you create a record in software it creates a unique protected 
>> ID for a new record separate from whatever its user fillable fields add.
>
>
> This is exactly the behavior that I expected from TiddlyWiki. Let's have a 
> look at the Airtable  app for instance that I 
> use a lot for tabular data: Whenever you create a new record (a row in a 
> table) it gets an internal ID that you don't see and cannot access for 
> editing. You can even create an empty row in a table (that is perfectly 
> correct)  and then create relationships from other tables just by pointing 
> to the row. At the same time each table has a "key" column that is used to 
> simplify the linking of records, searching or filtering. It is a fully 
> functional structure to be modified to my needs. If you overwrite the value 
> in the "key" cell than all the linked records in other tables are 
> automatically updated as well. 
>  
>
>> Not so with Tiddlers. The "title" IS the ID. On the one hand its flexibly 
>> lightweight. On the other hand it adds complications. Especially if you 
>> need extensive inter-linking and need to change titling as you go along. As 
>> far as I understand it, within the current basic architecture, 
>> fundamentally changing that behaviour is not possible. So its more about 
>> accepting it or finding ways round it.
>>
>
> I see. Maybe some quick analysis by the system architect will help to 
> express 
>
>- the amount of work to bring this flexibility
>- the consequences on your plugins etc.
>
> Thanks again for spending your time and the patience you have with me, 
> Josiah (and others as well).
>
> Petr
>
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Re: [tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

Hi Brady

To clarify my earlier postings, my own view is that TiddlyWiki’s design in the 
area of titles, IDs etc. is correct but incomplete.

Since the main thread we’ve added automated relinking of tags and lists, but 
the big component that is still missing is a decent search and replace 
operation that is syntactically aware; it can reliably find and replace all the 
references to a tiddler (without being confused by plain text references to the 
same text). Almost everything else that one might to change is within the parts 
of TiddlyWiki’s UI that are expressed in wikitext.

In my own usage of TiddlyWiki I use a variety of techniques depending on the 
situation. One technique that is useful when working with links embedded in 
narrative text (as opposed to auto-generated links), is to indirect through a 
field: put the target of a link in a field (eg, “link-0”, “link-1”, “link-2" 
etc,) and then refer to them via a macro (eg, “<>”).

Best wishes

Jeremy.

> On 18 Apr 2018, at 11:31, Brady77  wrote:
> 
> @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
> 
> Part of the issue is the idea of creating a Tiddler gets easily conceptually 
> confused with creating a data record. This is something I have written at 
> length about--that TiddlyWiki is NOT a "card-index"--though you can make it 
> look like one. 
> 
> Well, Josiah, I wasn't the one who came with the idea of creating a 
> TiddlyWiki. Probably the best here would be asking Jeremy Ruston what was his 
> initial vision and the intended usage of tiddlers and other basic building 
> blocks. From your responses I feel I'm crossing some borders of fair-play 
> when questioning basic functionality of the system. I really don't want to 
> point at some dysfunction of the system that arises completely from my own 
> misuse of TiddlyWiki. I'm well aware how much effort and time you spend to 
> have a perfect system.  
> 
> Usually when you create a record in software it creates a unique protected ID 
> for a new record separate from whatever its user fillable fields add.
> 
> This is exactly the behavior that I expected from TiddlyWiki. Let's have a 
> look at the Airtable  app for instance that I use a 
> lot for tabular data: Whenever you create a new record (a row in a table) it 
> gets an internal ID that you don't see and cannot access for editing. You can 
> even create an empty row in a table (that is perfectly correct)  and then 
> create relationships from other tables just by pointing to the row. At the 
> same time each table has a "key" column that is used to simplify the linking 
> of records, searching or filtering. It is a fully functional structure to be 
> modified to my needs. If you overwrite the value in the "key" cell than all 
> the linked records in other tables are automatically updated as well. 
>  
> Not so with Tiddlers. The "title" IS the ID. On the one hand its flexibly 
> lightweight. On the other hand it adds complications. Especially if you need 
> extensive inter-linking and need to change titling as you go along. As far as 
> I understand it, within the current basic architecture, fundamentally 
> changing that behaviour is not possible. So its more about accepting it or 
> finding ways round it.
> 
> I see. Maybe some quick analysis by the system architect will help to express 
> the amount of work to bring this flexibility
> the consequences on your plugins etc.
> Thanks again for spending your time and the patience you have with me, Josiah 
> (and others as well).
> 
> Petr
> 
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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-18 Thread Brady77

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

>
> Part of the issue is the idea of creating a Tiddler gets easily 
> conceptually confused with creating a data record. This is something I have 
> written at length about--that TiddlyWiki is NOT a "card-index"--though you 
> can make it look like one. 
>

Well, Josiah, I wasn't the one who came with the idea of creating a 
TiddlyWiki. Probably the best here would be asking Jeremy Ruston what was 
his initial vision and the intended usage of tiddlers and other basic 
building blocks. From your responses I feel I'm crossing some borders of 
fair-play when questioning basic functionality of the system. I really 
don't want to point at some *dysfunction *of the system that arises 
completely from *my own misuse of TiddlyWiki*. I'm well aware how much 
effort and time you spend to have a perfect system.  

Usually when you create a record in software it creates a unique protected 
> ID for a new record separate from whatever its user fillable fields add.

This is exactly the behavior that I expected from TiddlyWiki. Let's have a 
look at the Airtable  app for instance that I use 
a lot for tabular data: Whenever you create a new record (a row in a table) 
it gets an internal ID that you don't see and cannot access for 
editing. You can even create an empty row in a table (that is perfectly 
correct)  and then create relationships from other tables just by pointing 
to the row. At the same time each table has a "key" column that is used to 
simplify the linking of records, searching or filtering. It is a fully 
functional structure to be modified to my needs. If you overwrite the value 
in the "key" cell than all the linked records in other tables are 
automatically updated as well. 

> Not so with Tiddlers. The "title" IS the ID. On the one hand its flexibly 
> lightweight. On the other hand it adds complications. Especially if you 
> need extensive inter-linking and need to change titling as you go along. As 
> far as I understand it, within the current basic architecture, 
> fundamentally changing that behaviour is not possible. So its more about 
> accepting it or finding ways round it.
>

I see. Maybe some quick analysis by the system architect will help to 
express 

   - the amount of work to bring this flexibility
   - the consequences on your plugins etc.

Thanks again for spending your time and the patience you have with me, 
Josiah (and others as well).

Petr

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-18 Thread TonyM

Brady et al..

I find this discussion quite interesting because this issue is never one I 
am concerned about. Using the uni-link plugin also seems to solve all other 
cases I can imagine. Is it because I am really good at selecting Titles or 
the fact I usually establish relationships through other mechanisms such as 
tagging? I can personally see applications where I would establish fields 
and or tagging to handle tiddlers with a large number of related tiddlers 
such as adding paragraph and chapter values so including tiddlers or 
relationships uses a programmatic method which does not care about the 
tiddlers title to work and thus can be renamed without damage.

Can you describe what kind of use or method you have that is making your 
solution title sensitive and I may be able to suggest an alternative?

I typically only transclude in a tiddler {{tiddlername}} if it is code or 
systems design where I do not care what the name is, only that I have the 
correct name. If I Found my self with [[no longer appropriate title to 
appear in text]] I would use  [[newtitle|no longer appropriate title to 
appear in text]] as Mario suggested, or I would rename the tiddler and its 
reference(s). This is not a problem if it is occasional and if it was a 
problem because the item was referred to in many places I would find a 
programmatic way to implement it.

Lets also consider, what If I am using a large set of titles I expect may 
need lots of renaming, I can use the pretty link, caption or uni-links 
plugin to help (I find this hard to believe this is not enough), but if I 
had this problem, then I would find a programmatic solution to this. You 
could use an intermediate Glossary as an index to the original tiddler 
using a unique value in a field, then use macros to insert the tiddler what 
ever its name.

What I say is if and when you are inserting into a tiddler a Link or 
Transclusion to another tiddler ask your self could I possibly need to 
change the name, not only here but in many places then just do not do it, 
find another solution.

Please define the occasions where this is occurring and let me suggest a 
solution. I love these kinds of challenges, and I seem not to have the 
problem you are voicing.

Regards
Tony

On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 at 4:47:40 AM UTC+10, Brady77 wrote:
>
>
> Jed Carty wrote:
>>
>> I don't really see the need for it to be immutable, so that point isn't 
>> universally agreed upon. There are a number of things in tiddlywiki that 
>> are done by overwriting a tiddler based on the name. Almost any time you 
>> change a setting that has a default value in the core you create a new 
>> tiddler that has the same name as the core tiddler. 
>>
>
> You are right Jed. It was premature to state that. 
>  
>
>> While tiddlywiki can be used as a database it isn't a database. For 
>> everything I do relationships between tiddlers are handled using tags and 
>> other fields to generate the needed links or relationships, the names 
>> almost never come into it.
>>
>
> According to the official documentation (Philosophy of Tiddlers 
>  and Structuring 
> TiddlyWiki ) there are 
> five basic building blocks to structure the Wiki:
>
>1. Tiddlers  - only 
>field that is required is the title field
>2. TiddlerLinks  - 
>link to a tiddler by title [[Tiddler Title]]
>3. Tagging  - "A tag is in fact just 
>a tiddler (or a potential tiddler), and it can have tags of its own. You 
>can add any number of tags to the same tiddler." - If tag is internally a 
>tiddler then 1. applies
>4. Title Lists  - "A title list 
>is a line of text that presents one or more tiddler titles" - is based on 
>tiddler titles
>5. DataTiddlers  - named 
>properties are accessed by referencing the data tiddler title again
>
> I didn't examine any important functions (like searching etc) but so far 
> it is obvious that the tiddler title should not be modified not just 
> because of the links, but because of other building blocks as well. It is 
> true at the same time that there are special cases when it is desirable to 
> change or set the tiddler title (as Josiah stated above).
>

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

Jed Carty wrote:
>
> I don't really see the need for it to be immutable, so that point isn't 
> universally agreed upon. There are a number of things in tiddlywiki that 
> are done by overwriting a tiddler based on the name. Almost any time you 
> change a setting that has a default value in the core you create a new 
> tiddler that has the same name as the core tiddler. 
>

You are right Jed. It was premature to state that. 

> While tiddlywiki can be used as a database it isn't a database. For 
> everything I do relationships between tiddlers are handled using tags and 
> other fields to generate the needed links or relationships, the names 
> almost never come into it.
>

According to the official documentation (Philosophy of Tiddlers 
 and Structuring 
TiddlyWiki ) there are 
five basic building blocks to structure the Wiki:

   1. Tiddlers  - only 
   field that is required is the title field
   2. TiddlerLinks  - link 
   to a tiddler by title [[Tiddler Title]]
   3. Tagging  - "A tag is in fact just a 
   tiddler (or a potential tiddler), and it can have tags of its own. You can 
   add any number of tags to the same tiddler." - If tag is internally a 
   tiddler then 1. applies
   4. Title Lists  - "A title list is 
   a line of text that presents one or more tiddler titles" - is based on 
   tiddler titles
   5. DataTiddlers  - named 
   properties are accessed by referencing the data tiddler title again

I didn't examine any important functions (like searching etc) but so far it 
is obvious that the tiddler title should not be modified not just because 
of the links, but because of other building blocks as well. It is true at 
the same time that there are special cases when it is desirable to change 
or set the tiddler title (as Josiah stated above).

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

How about ...

When a tiddler is brand new, the user can edit both the title (which will 
be called title/id) and the sub-title (which will be above the title 
field). The title will have a suggested, date-and-userstamped title (why 
stamped? more below) After a tiddler is saved once and then subsequently 
edited, the editor will only present the subtitle field for editing, though 
it will present the title for copying. A user can turn off this behavior in 
the configuration, will have verbiage about the consequences of changing 
titles. 

All of this will just impact the UI and possibly the documentation. 
Internally, everything can work as before. The date-stamped title will help 
prevent conflict when dragging tiddlers between TW instances (because 
otherwise there are going to be lots of 'New Tiddler 1' conflicts).

Ideally the core would also offer something like uni-link, but even if it 
doesn't the user can make their own pretty link with whatever title they 
want.

Another solution would be a plugin that detects when a tiddler is being 
saved with a new title. Then, just like with tag tiddlers now, it will 
offer to find and change all matching tiddler links. Of course, this 
wouldn't help anyone who has a link from another TW instance.

-- Mark

On Tuesday, April 17, 2018 at 11:02:22 AM UTC-7, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> That is a good point. As someone who is no longer qualified to be a 
> beginner, what is the alternative being presented?
>
> If it is just "Display something other than the title in the title field" 
> we can do that by a plugin easily enough, or add an option to toggle the 
> template between the current version and using the caption or something.
>
> If it is to reengineer how linking works than we need an alternative that 
> doesn't break tiddlywiki.
>
>
>

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-17 Thread @TiddlyTweeter

Josiah wrote:
>
> ... some of the issue could be avoided by understanding the architecture 
>> of ID's in TW before starting. BUT which you could NOT do because you 
>> didn't yet know enough. It is a sort of puzzle ...
>>
>
Brady77 wrote: 

> This is what I wanted to express at the beginning with the analogy to the 
> dam on the river. 
>

I hear you.

..I started to build the Wiki as my note-taking system and it broke in a 
> way that I wasn't able to fix it... I changed many titles many times. What 
> I ended with was a mess. 
>

Right. You can end up with a mid-town mess. That is neither fish nor fowl.

... Since this is the core functionality (linking tiddlers together) I'm 
> still convinced that this is a major problem of the system core ... 
>

I agree it is very confusing. 

Part of the issue is the idea of creating a Tiddler gets easily 
conceptually confused with creating a data record. This is something I have 
written at length about--that TiddlyWiki is NOT a "card-index"--though you 
can make it look like one. Usually when you create a record in software it 
creates a unique protected ID for a new record separate from whatever its 
user fillable fields add. Not so with Tiddlers. The "title" IS the ID. On 
the one hand its flexibly lightweight. On the other hand it adds 
complications. Especially if you need extensive inter-linking and need to 
change titling as you go along.

As far as I understand it, within the current basic architecture, 
fundamentally changing that behaviour is not possible. So its more about 
accepting it or finding ways round it.

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-17 Thread Jed Carty

That is a good point. As someone who is no longer qualified to be a 
beginner, what is the alternative being presented?

If it is just "Display something other than the title in the title field" 
we can do that by a plugin easily enough, or add an option to toggle the 
template between the current version and using the caption or something.

If it is to reengineer how linking works than we need an alternative that 
doesn't break tiddlywiki.


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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

We're kind of going back and forth on what's easiest for the *beginner*. I 
think you may be over-qualified as a beginner. 

Most beginner's instinct will be to connect notes by linking. That's what 
Wikis are all about, isn't it? In which case they need to understand 
quickly the consequences of their name choices. Other Wikis they have 
encountered may offer to change links when a title changes, so this may 
come as a surprise.

Once you're using the title for linking, the title either needs to be 
immutable, or you have to be willing to accept that you will have broken 
links.

-- Mark 

On Tuesday, April 17, 2018 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-7, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> I don't really see the need for it to be immutable, so that point isn't 
> universally agreed upon. There are a number of things in tiddlywiki that 
> are done by overwriting a tiddler based on the name. Almost any time you 
> change a setting that has a default value in the core you create a new 
> tiddler that has the same name as the core tiddler. While tiddlywiki can be 
> used as a database it isn't a database. For everything I do relationships 
> between tiddlers are handled using tags and other fields to generate the 
> needed links or relationships, the names almost never come into it.
>

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles



On Tuesday, April 17, 2018 at 9:37:01 AM UTC-7, Brady77 wrote:
>
>
> How is this ID generated by the uni-link plugin? Or should I provide one 
> by hand (from https://www.uuidgenerator.net/ for example?) Or use a 
> system that you suggested above (  [])?
>  
>
>>
I would use the human-readable version I suggested. Using a UUID generator 
would be overkill at this point. Currently there's a functional upper limit 
to the number of tiddlers, so you're not going to use it as a 10 
tiddler database
 
 

> I hope for some guide to help me with this. I wish to share the Wiki with 
> other users and cannot imagine to explain everyone that this first editable 
> field is NO-NO editable field that breaks all.
>
>
It's only a NO-NO if you plan to link to it. If you're just going to 
reference it by tags or fields like Jed suggests, then there's no problem. 
So it depends a lot on your use-case.
 
-- Mark

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

Josiah wrote:

I mean, you don't want to backtrack now to a new architectural design do 
> you? 
>

...whatever that sorts this problem I take it

> But I do think Jed's point remains true and that some of the issue could 
> be avoided by understanding the architecture of ID's in TW before starting. 
> BUT which you could NOT do because you didn't yet know enough. It is a sort 
> of puzzle. But I think it comes out okay in the end.
>

This is what I wanted to express at the beginning with the analogy to the 
dam on the river. I started to build the Wiki as my note-taking system and 
it broke in a way that I wasn't able to fix it. If you change the title 
once how can you recall it's title a few days later? And I changed many 
titles many times. What I ended with was a mess. Since this is the core 
functionality (linking tiddlers together) I'm still convinced that this is 
a major problem of the system core (or design if you want). 

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-17 Thread Jed Carty

I don't really see the need for it to be immutable, so that point isn't 
universally agreed upon. There are a number of things in tiddlywiki that 
are done by overwriting a tiddler based on the name. Almost any time you 
change a setting that has a default value in the core you create a new 
tiddler that has the same name as the core tiddler. While tiddlywiki can be 
used as a database it isn't a database. For everything I do relationships 
between tiddlers are handled using tags and other fields to generate the 
needed links or relationships, the names almost never come into it.

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

Hi Mark,

If you're using the uni-link plugin, it will automatically change how your 
> links are rendered to match either the caption or the subtitle of the 
> linked tiddler. You can then leave the tiddler alone, never renaming it but 
> only changing "caption" or "subtitle" if you want to change how it looks 
> when linked.
>

This is great as it partially solves the problem. I'll give the plugin a 
try a will let you know it works for me.

>
> Basically, it allows you to use the title as a true immutable ID, and the 
> caption or subtitle as the title. 
>

How is this ID generated by the uni-link plugin? Or should I provide one by 
hand (from https://www.uuidgenerator.net/ for example?) Or use a system 
that you suggested above (  [])?

> It's a partial solution because it doesn't fix existing broken links. You 
> will have to find and fix them. 
>

No big deal with my notes so far cause I just started to use TiddlyWiki.

> There's also nothing to prevent you from forgetting and changing a tiddler 
> title. The title of the tiddler that appears will be different than the 
> title someone clicked on. Perhaps the ViewTemplate could be modified to 
> also use the caption or subtitle, reducing confusion.
>

I hope for some guide to help me with this. I wish to share the Wiki with 
other users and cannot imagine to explain everyone that this first editable 
field is NO-NO editable field that breaks all.

Everyone so far admitted that the tiddler should be identified by an 
*immutable* ID (call it how you want) to keep Wiki relationships 
operational. Why not to change the system so it is the default when 
starting a new Tiddlywiki? We should seriously discuss all the PROS and 
CONS.

Thank you, too.

>
> -- Mark 
>
> On Tuesday, April 17, 2018 at 8:28:44 AM UTC-7, Brady77 wrote:
>>
>> Hi Josiah,
>>
>> I appreciate your willingness to help. Let's say I will generate some 
>> unique ID for tiddler title. Next I use the "caption" field to as a real 
>> tiddler title. Could you tell me what files to change so I can use it as 
>> you suggest? I'm afraid that current tiddler title is hardcoded in many 
>> places. I'm also awaiting Mario's reply regarding the "partial" solution by 
>> using the "caption" field.
>>
>> Petr
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-17 Thread @TiddlyTweeter

Brady77 wrote:
>
> I appreciate your willingness to help.
>

Mark S. just wrote a good reply that I think sums up a practical way 
forward for your situation (as far as I understand it). PMario's uni-link 
plugin adds a small overhead on performance. But its good for situations 
like yours. I mean, you don't want to backtrack now to a new architectural 
design do you? 

But I do think Jed's point remains true and that some of the issue could be 
avoided by understanding the architecture of ID's in TW before starting. 
BUT which you could NOT do because you didn't yet know enough. It is a sort 
of puzzle. But I think it comes out okay in the end.

Josiah

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

If you're using the uni-link plugin, it will automatically change how your 
links are rendered to match either the caption or the subtitle of the 
linked tiddler. You can then leave the tiddler alone, never renaming it but 
only changing "caption" or "subtitle" if you want to change how it looks 
when linked.

Basically, it allows you to use the title as a true immutable ID, and the 
caption or subtitle as the title. But it enables better performance -- it 
doesn't guarantee it. It's a partial solution because it doesn't fix 
existing broken links. You will have to find and fix them. There's also 
nothing to prevent you from forgetting and changing a tiddler title. The 
title of the tiddler that appears will be different than the title someone 
clicked on. Perhaps the ViewTemplate could be modified to also use the 
caption or subtitle, reducing confusion.

-- Mark 

On Tuesday, April 17, 2018 at 8:28:44 AM UTC-7, Brady77 wrote:
>
> Hi Josiah,
>
> I appreciate your willingness to help. Let's say I will generate some 
> unique ID for tiddler title. Next I use the "caption" field to as a real 
> tiddler title. Could you tell me what files to change so I can use it as 
> you suggest? I'm afraid that current tiddler title is hardcoded in many 
> places. I'm also awaiting Mario's reply regarding the "partial" solution by 
> using the "caption" field.
>
> Petr
>

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2014. I wonder if TW proved useful for Felix's master thesis project?

-- Mark

On Sunday, June 1, 2014 at 7:44:43 AM UTC-7, Felix Küppers wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am currently working on my master thesis and organize myself via TW5.
>
> TW5 is truly a great program and it really supports my workflow, however I 
> have a little problem.
> *My problem:*
>
>

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

With all the talk about esoteric concepts like "Quines", I was surprised 
that TW5 had the same fundamental problem  that TWC had. In database 
parlance, you never use the same field for more than one thing. This is law 
#1 of database normalization, which allows for massive amounts of data to 
be processed every day even by relatively low-powered computers.

The title field is being used for at least 3 jobs: title, ID, and system 
flag. There should be 3 fields for each of these tasks. A beginner error is 
to then use it for something else (like dates).

The fix is to use something like uni-links so that the title field can be 
used as an immutable ID field. Another fix would be a tool that, when you 
change a title, finds and replaces all links. I thought there was a promise 
of such a thing a long time ago.

My general formulation for unique titles is

  []

The mistake would be, of course to use the title to *store* the date. I'm 
just using it here to keep things unique without having to think too hard.

Beginners using TW and used to full-fledged Wikis and other systems (Zim? 
Wikidpad?) will probably be surprised when changing titles doesn't also 
change links.

-- Mark

On Tuesday, April 17, 2018 at 4:01:47 AM UTC-7, Brady77 wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> any solution to the problem? I don't believe that Felix and me are the 
> only TiddlyWiki users who are struggling with renaming the tiddlers (or 
> tags). Let's go to the roots of TiddlyWiki that positions as a *system of 
> small pieces of related information*. How does is play with such a basic 
> operation called "change tiddler title" by breaking all references? There 
> is probably something I have missed at the beginning but it seems to me 
> like building a dam on a river from sugar cubes: you have a solid structure 
> just until you fill it with water...
>
> Is it a technical problem? Or a too much work to change the system? Or a 
> backward compatibility problem? A combination of? Should we create a plan 
> to untangle it? 
>

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

Hi Josiah,

I appreciate your willingness to help. Let's say I will generate some 
unique ID for tiddler title. Next I use the "caption" field to as a real 
tiddler title. Could you tell me what files to change so I can use it as 
you suggest? I'm afraid that current tiddler title is hardcoded in many 
places. I'm also awaiting Mario's reply regarding the "partial" solution by 
using the "caption" field.

Petr

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles


>
> A tiddler is an object with an internal id, it is the title field. You can 
> add fields to it without changing the identity of the tiddler. Once you 
> change the title of the tiddler you are changing the internal id.
>
> This same argument has been made many times and there has never been a 
> solution presented that doesn't have the same problems as using a title. 
> You need to have a unique identifier on each tiddler, to link to a tiddler 
> you need this id. Regardless of how you twist things around this id is 
> equivalent to the title. I think that in most cases it is much more 
> convenient to have this id be a human readable one.
>

Thanks Jed for your opinion. I think that the internal ID is nothing a user 
is allowed to modify. This should be completely hidden from user interface. 
This is actually my only problem: I changed the internal ID of an object 
but it wasn't my intention at all. I just wanted to edit a text field and 
ended with broken links.

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-17 Thread @TiddlyTweeter

I totally agree with Jed.

IMO, if normal titling is becoming an issue to (ID) organise what you need, 
then a first step is to step back and consider the design architecture of 
what you wanting to do. The problem with other work-arounds is it adds 
complications and overheads.

FWIW, to deal with this issue I adopted two different approaches ...

(1) where I need a clear ID I use the title field purely as the 
data-reference (e.g. Title-1_sub-7 etc) and the caption field for what is 
displayed. That is easy & reliable.

(2) where I want to use the title field only, that is displayed, I think 
through a schema of naming that is nor overly laborious. Its not always 
optimal--but mostly it is.

Best wishes
Josiah

Jed Carty wrote:
>
> This same argument has been made many times and there has never been a 
> solution presented that doesn't have the same problems as using a title. 
> You need to have a unique identifier on each tiddler, to link to a tiddler 
> you need this id. Regardless of how you twist things around this id is 
> equivalent to the title. I think that in most cases it is much more 
> convenient to have this id be a human readable one.
>

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-17 Thread Jed Carty

A tiddler is an object with an internal id, it is the title field. You can 
add fields to it without changing the identity of the tiddler. Once you 
change the title of the tiddler you are changing the internal id.

This same argument has been made many times and there has never been a 
solution presented that doesn't have the same problems as using a title. 
You need to have a unique identifier on each tiddler, to link to a tiddler 
you need this id. Regardless of how you twist things around this id is 
equivalent to the title. I think that in most cases it is much more 
convenient to have this id be a human readable one.

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

 

>  
>
Hi,
>> any solution to the problem?
>>
>
> partially. .. I think it can be solved with plugins now. ... My unilink 
> plugin may be an option. 
>

Please can you elaborate on "partially"? What areas of the TiddlyWiki are 
not covered by using your Unilink plugin?
 

>  
>
>> I don't believe that Felix and me are the only TiddlyWiki users who are 
>> struggling with renaming the tiddlers (or tags).
>>
>
> TiddlyWiki contains a new mechanism now, that "batch renames" all existing 
> tags, if you rename a tiddler title. .. So if you change a tag-tiddler the 
> core will do the batch processing. 
>
> This doesn't change links like: [[tag-name-here]] in tiddler text. ... But 
> if you rename your tiddlers a lot you will have a lot of 
> [[prettylinks|tag-name-tiddler]] anyway. Otherwise your text will be hard 
> to read. ... The alias-plugin, which is part of uni-link will help your 
> here. -> No renaming needed!
>

I'm confused here. What is the difference in renaming the tiddler or the 
tag? Tag is just a label, isn't is? So changing it should be super simple = 
there are no links...
 

>  
>
>> Let's go to the roots of TiddlyWiki that positions as a *system of small 
>> pieces of related information*. How does is play with such a basic 
>> operation called "change tiddler title" by breaking all references? There 
>> is probably something I have missed at the beginning but it seems to me 
>> like building a dam on a river from sugar cubes: you have a solid structure 
>> just until you fill it with water...
>>
>
> There are many users, where the existing mechanism works well, for a 
> really long time. ... 
>
> I know, that naming tiddlers is hard! .. That's why I use uni-link ;) and 
> a theme, that doesn't use tiddler titles as a heading. see: 
> https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/slant-01/  My tiddler names look 
> like: this-is-a-tiddler-name, which I don't change anymore. ... 
>
> I use "real headings" at the tiddler body, which allows me to use the 
> tiddler title as an "index" and I can change the heading as often as I 
> want. "caption" and "subtitle" are very handy here.
>
> This works well with the above mentioned plugins, which don't break TWs, 
> that don't use the plugins, if you copy your texts. (but the functionality 
> will be different!)
>
 
So you implemented something what Jeremy suggested in this thread above: 
"...users should be able to use GUIDs for tiddler titles if it suits their 
use case. The missing piece is a way of linking to a tiddler by it's 
GUID/title, but having a specified field displayed as the text of the 
link.". This is exact opposite to what Felix'es suggests by using "IDs" for 
GUIDs. 
 

>  
>
>> Is it a technical problem?
>>
>
> Partially yes. The whole core javascript code and UI uses the tiddler 
> title as a heading.  because it's easy for new users.
>

Well, I am new to TiddlyWiki. After few edits to my Wiki I ended with an 
error: "Missing tiddler "XYZ" – click to create". I cannot agree that it is 
something what makes new users life easier. I thought I have a centrally 
managed system in one HTML file that encourages me to create many tiddlers 
to be connected by links. What I have now is a copy of world wide web 
system in my PC: a mess of 404 error links where only Google robots have 
the power to get some relevant data out of it. TiddlyWiki = big data?
 

>  
>
>> Or a too much work to change the system?
>>
>
> Yes. ... If you really want to have it in a different way, without 
> regressions in functionality, you better start from scratch. It would be 
> much less work. 
>  
>
>> Or a backward compatibility problem?
>>
> A combination of? 
>>
>
> Yes. ... 
>  
>
>> Should we create a plan to untangle it? 
>>
>
> IMO it's a plugin- and not a core-problem. 
>

This is a core problem for sure. Tiddler should be an object with an 
internal ID. Just like in any document database (or NoSQL database). You 
can add fields to it with values but the object doesn't change it's 
identity by changing a field value. 
 

>
> have fun!
> mario
>

Thanks Mario for your informative response.  

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles

2018-04-17 Thread PMario

This is a really old topic. .. TW has changed quite a bit ... 

On Tuesday, April 17, 2018 at 1:01:47 PM UTC+2, Brady77 wrote:
>
> Hi,
> any solution to the problem?
>

partially. .. I think it can be solved with plugins now. ... My unilink 
plugin may be an option. 

> I don't believe that Felix and me are the only TiddlyWiki users who are 
> struggling with renaming the tiddlers (or tags).
>

TiddlyWiki contains a new mechanism now, that "batch renames" all existing 
tags, if you rename a tiddler title. .. So if you change a tag-tiddler the 
core will do the batch processing. 

This doesn't change links like: [[tag-name-here]] in tiddler text. ... But 
if you rename your tiddlers a lot you will have a lot of 
[[prettylinks|tag-name-tiddler]] anyway. Otherwise your text will be hard 
to read. ... The alias-plugin, which is part of uni-link will help your 
here. -> No renaming needed!

> Let's go to the roots of TiddlyWiki that positions as a *system of small 
> pieces of related information*. How does is play with such a basic 
> operation called "change tiddler title" by breaking all references? There 
> is probably something I have missed at the beginning but it seems to me 
> like building a dam on a river from sugar cubes: you have a solid structure 
> just until you fill it with water...
>

There are many users, where the existing mechanism works well, for a really 
long time. ... 

I know, that naming tiddlers is hard! .. That's why I use uni-link ;) and a 
theme, that doesn't use tiddler titles as a heading. see: 
https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/slant-01/  My tiddler names look like: 
this-is-a-tiddler-name, which I don't change anymore. ... 

I use "real headings" at the tiddler body, which allows me to use the 
tiddler title as an "index" and I can change the heading as often as I 
want. "caption" and "subtitle" are very handy here.

This works well with the above mentioned plugins, which don't break TWs, 
that don't use the plugins, if you copy your texts. (but the functionality 
will be different!)

> Is it a technical problem?
>

Partially yes. The whole core javascript code and UI uses the tiddler title 
as a heading.  because it's easy for new users.

> Or a too much work to change the system?
>

Yes. ... If you really want to have it in a different way, without 
regressions in functionality, you better start from scratch. It would be 
much less work. 

> Or a backward compatibility problem?
>
A combination of? 
>

Yes. ... 

> Should we create a plan to untangle it? 
>

IMO it's a plugin- and not a core-problem. 

have fun!
mario

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[tw5] Re: [TW5] preventing tiddler-links to break by using ids as reference that translate into titles