Re: [Vo]:Reports of tritium production from Rossi-like experiments
Interesting... the page has been removed from 22passi! Mic Il giorno 12/lug/2011 20:56, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com ha scritto: Hello group, It looks like there have been interesting news on the (private) CMNS mailing list as of late. Passerini in his latest post on his 22passi blog reported one email in particular (probably forwarded by Celani) regarding tritium production from Rossi-like Ni-H LENR experiments. I assume it's safe to copy and paste an excerpt here as well: http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/07/da-nichel-e-idrogeno-nasce-il-trizio.html * * * On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 2:55 AM, Brian Ahern [omissis] wrote: Dave, I just spoke with Tom Claytor at Los Alamos NL after I heard a rumor he was getting tritium from his Rossi-like experiments. I expected that it was a rumor from 20 years ago when his named was associated with CF and tritium. Surprisingly, that was not the case. He is using nanopowder alloys and hydrogen and he was getting 5% excess energy. Now he says he can reliably and repeatedly move between 5% and 16% with the 'movement of a control'. They are writing up patent applications right now, so I could not press him for details. The tritium is real, but so low as to provide no health or proliferation hazard. I asked him about DOE Headquarters and their attitude. He said their recent proposal was deemd in the top five for the year, so they are getting some funding. I asked him if he saw the potential for this becoming useful in a direct path. He said that he and his team do indeed see a path for development. I hope it is related to voltage triggering. Don't you think Matrix Capital should start looking closely at this area? At least to correspond with LANL? * * * Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic?
Angela, The article does not say much. As a matter of fact Bardi does not give any scientific fact to confirm what he has written, just rumors hence just blather on which he bases his bufala (scam) assumption. You can find him on some rainews interviews posted earlier on this list. The guy is never to the point actually he seems to know very little about LENR... As side note it seem that the blog where Bardi writes is sponsored by renewable energy companies whose interest conflicts with even the chance that a new energy source appears. Could be maketing FUD technique? Mic Il giorno 19/lug/2011 17:59, Angela Kemmler angela.kemm...@gmx.de ha scritto: Original-Nachricht Datum: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:54:26 -0300 Von: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Betreff: Re: [Vo]: Prof. Kullander now an Ecat critic? No, not critics. The director of those Swedish physicists denied there was a contract, Rossi also denied that, and in fact what will happen is a collaboration of the professors of Bologna and Uppsal to develop the e-cat. sorry Daniel, did you read the article of Ugo Bardi? Did you understand it? Angela -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
Re: [Vo]:Vortex Could Go Down July 25th
+1 for Google groups http://groups-beta.google.com/googlegroups/tour3/index.html Il giorno 19/lug/2011 18:16, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com ha scritto: On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Alexander Hollins alexander.holl...@gmail.com wrote: While I agree with you, this has been argued to DEATH and back. Really? When? Of course, I'd be willing to set up a Vortex Fan Page on Facebook if anyone else here uses it. Many organizations (including mine) block Facebook access during office hours. T
Re: [Vo]:FWIW
Guess what Rossi says ... :-) Andrea Rossi July 19th, 2011at 9:22AM Dear Carlo: Probably there has been a misunderstanding, no 35 kW reactors will be demonstrated anywhere in public. In October will be put in operation our 1 MW plant. I continue to work on it 16 hours perday,and so far we are prefectly in time. Warm Regards, A.R. Carlo July 19th, 2011at 9:12AM Dear Andrea Rossi in a recent interviewDefkalion GT President Alexandros Xanthoulis stated that a 35KW Hyperion will be demonstrated at the end of September. Should we consider this an error meaning he was talking about the 1MW module at the endofOctober or can we really expect to see a 35KW module at the end of September? You can find the transcriptionofthe inteviewat http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/07/19/more-details-from-defkalion-gt-president-alexandros-xanthoulis/ Il giorno 19/lug/2011 15:01, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com ha scritto: This looks like a Brazilian soap opera! LOL! :D
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
All true. Consider that Milli is somehow considered alternative, not always representative of the family. But yes when you talk about oil business in Italy their name is the first on the list. mic 2011/7/27 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: See: http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2011/07/23/viareggio-cold-fusion-conference-science-politics-and-an-italian-competitor/ QUOTE: 19.10 – Among the public Milly Moratti takes the word and states that there are clearly now experimental evidences of Cold Fusion. Now, for the one who do not know, Milli Moratti is the wife of Massimo Moratti, one of the richest man in Italy and owner of the Saras Petrol Refinery, The biggest in Italy and one of the biggest in Europe. That’s a 5,3 Billion Euro Company. She has money and the political knowledge. [I have never heard of this person.] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Moratti - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat explained - Final chapter for steam controversy
As I said, my feeling is that he prefers steam because it proves the thing works at high temperature. Also, it is a little more convenient to work with. The flow of water is lower and you can use a weight scale instead of a flow meter. As I have said here, flow meters tend to be a pain in the butt. A water tank where to put outgoing water and get volume by measuring height. I don't think he would have many more problems with mass/volume water in liquid phase than he has with steam... of course the shape of the tank does not need to be more complex than a rectangular cuboid. mic
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat explained - Final chapter for steam controversy
2011/7/29 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: As I have said here, flow meters tend to be a pain in the butt. You need a flow meter to do this right. In the 18-hour test they reportedly did use a flow meter. I asked them what make and model. They never responded so I did not include this detail in my description. Flow meters have to be reliable: don't we all trust the gas pump? ... do we? ;-) mic
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat explained - Final chapter for steam controversy
Simplest way to do convincing demonstration is to recycle large enough volume of water, so that inlet water is pumped from the water tank and outlet will lead back to the same tank. Then it needs only to observe rising temperature. If Rossi wants to do really convincing demonstration he would take medium sized swimming pool and heat that water to boiling point in 8 hours. This is very similar to the experiments that Focardi says, in a few interviews, he had taken since 2007 to be convinced of existence of Rossi's Effect before taking the decision of becoming Rossi's consultant. Actually, as I understand, they put the reactor in a water tank and see the water start boiling in a very short time, then they used other setup with higher steam pressure. As we here see how trivial it is to setup absolutely convincing demonstration, then we have only one option left that Rossi does not want to do such thing! At least not before October. The question here is *WHY* he would not want to make such experiment? mic
Re: [Vo]:ColdFusionNow reports support for research from influential person in Italy
2011/7/28 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Damon Craig wrote: Can you post it here, verbatum? Not the entire email, if you like, just the data. Nope. Even if I did, it would prove nothing, since anyone can write a few lines of ascii text and claim they came from an e-mail. That is arguable at least if you use PGP or OpenPGP to sign your bytes. I think anyone that sends data on the public should use some kind of digital signature system, better if it is based on open standards. See http://www.gnupg.org for instance. mic You need to stop harping on this. Take it or leave it. The same data appeared in NyTeknik. I think I can speak for Lewan in saying that neither of us cares whether you believe us or not. As they say in Japanese: iikagen ni shinasai. (Actually in this case it would be iikagen ni shiro.) Lewan and I might be lying to you. Rossi and Levi might be lying to us. Believing this calls for a measure of faith in the whole gang of us. If you don't have that faith, too bad. There is no way I can give you more reassurance even if I wanted to, and I don't. I suggest you look at the totality of the evidence, including all those other Ni cold fusion experiments. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:An example of bad publicity that Defkalion or Rossi could have prevented
Jed, If you search on this list there is a reference to an interview on RAINEWS with Focardi, Celani someone else and Bardi. Understanding Italian I can state that Bardi was always talking of things that had little to do with the main discussion there. He his expert and involved in classical alternative energy in the sense of wind, solar and so on. No clue on LENR. And as you notice the article is based on rumors and no scientific proof. mic 2011/7/29 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: See: http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8140 This is a respectable, widely read website. This report is completely wrong, but it is easy to see how the author made these mistakes. Either Defkalion or Rossi could publish correct, complete, authoritative information to squelch this kind of thing. They have not done so. In my opinion, that makes it their fault that reports like this keep circulating in respectable forums. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Piantelli news
That is an article written for CICAP (kind of italian skeptics society) so it can be taken seriously. See : http://www.cicap.org/new/articolo.php?id=273588 Translation http://goo.gl/info/1mgr8# mic Il giorno 30/lug/2011 20:56, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com ha scritto: Angela Kemmler angela.kemm...@gmx.de wrote: Francesco Piantelli's problem is that independent replication attempts failed so far. Piantelli described precisely his reactor in his patents, but nobody could repeat his results . . . As far as I know, that is correct. I may have overlooked a successful replication. However, only a few people have tried to replicate, so the failures do not have much significance. Also, people have observed heat from other types of nickel systems. See: Cerron-Zeballos, E., Crotty, I., Hatzifotiadou, D., Lamas Valverde, J., Williams, M.C.S., and Zichichi, A., Investigation of Anomalous Heat Production in Ni-H Systems. Nuovo Cimento, Vol. 109A, pages 1645-1654, (1996) That paper is here: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/CerronZebainvestigat.pdf 1998/1999 Luigi Nosenzo and Luigi Cattaneo could not replicate Piantelli's results. See: Adalberto Piazzoli, Fusione Fredda? Una ricerca italiana. CICAP Scienza Paranormale N. 78 (2008) I don't have that one. I wish I had more papers in Italian. But it does not sound like a chemistry or physics journal. Something about paranormal. Such journals seldom have good information on cold fusion. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Fw: New Energy Times #37 and Rossi Report #3
Does anyone know where the Florida factory is located? He would respond that he does not want anyone to know... this man must be a secret agent, I even wonder if *he* is real... ;-) mic 2011/8/1 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Andrea Selva wrote: Another question. If his facility in Florida is plenty of fine working devices, why bring people up to Italy just to see one ? Wouldn't be better to arrange demos next to the factory ? You would think so. I have no idea why he only invites people to Italy. I can go to Florida in a few hours for $200 so it would be MUCH more convenient for me. When he invited me to Italy, I asked if I could go to Florida instead. He said no. Much of what Rossi says and does makes no sense to me. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Fw: New Energy Times #37 and Rossi Report #3
LOL I remember reading in JONP that he stated that the factory was way off from the leonardocorp office... indeed he may be welding his reactors in the garage under that building. mic 2011/8/1 Andrea Selva andreagiuseppe.se...@gmail.com: Michele, if you look at this page http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/3705report3.shtml scrolling down just past 50% you can see a note and a picture of the factory location :) andrea 2011/8/1 Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com Does anyone know where the Florida factory is located? He would respond that he does not want anyone to know... this man must be a secret agent, I even wonder if *he* is real... ;-) mic
Re: [Vo]:Fw: New Energy Times #37 and Rossi Report #3
Now some fun with cheap psychology ;-) To explain some of Rossi's tactics look in his bio: he was a really strong long distance runner. Andrea Rossi spent at least 8 hours a day studying and playing sports (athletics, Italian champion of road race in 1970, in 1969 the junior world record of 24 hours race) http://ingandrearossi.net/gli-inizi/ If you have ever done some competition on endurance sports you know that you have to use similar tactics if you want to have the chance to win at the end of the race. Sprint and slow, get away and then hide in the group. mic 2011/8/1 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Makes no sense is a word too strong. It makes no sense to me! I guess you are leaning to think he is a crank. I don't like the word crank. He is one of the most eccentric people I know, and I know many eccentric people. (Come to think of it, a crank in the literal sense is eccentric in the literal sense.) Well, if you Jed, throw in the towel, I will do it too . . . Just because he is eccentric that is no reason to doubt his results. The correlation between the personality of an inventor and validity of the claim is weak. Straight-laced conventional people at IBM, Microsoft, and the plasma fusion program sometime come up with ludicrous ideas that will never work or products that will never sell. Strange people who seldom bathe sometimes come up with brilliant ideas. You have to judge the claim on its own merits. I think there is good evidence for Rossi's claims. I hope that Defkalion soon publishes good evidence for their claims, with more rigorous professional reports than Rossi and Levi et al. have produced so far. I do not think that any of the arguments against Rossi have merit, especially not the ones that attempt to disprove the 18-hour flowing water test. - Jed
[Vo]:Steam Test Kit
Here it is: http://www.steamquality.co.uk/Steam_Test_Kit.htm http://www.steamquality.co.uk/steam%20pdf/SQTK__Accessories_Brochure.pdf mmmh i see a temperature probe with datalogger... mic
Re: [Vo]:Steam Test Kit
Video included! http://www.steamquality.co.uk/Dryness_Value.htm mic 2011/8/3 Mark Iverson zeropo...@charter.net: Perhaps we should all contribute a few bucks, buy one and have it shipped to Professor Levi at the U of B! :-) -Mark -Original Message- From: Michele Comitini [mailto:michele.comit...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 3:41 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Steam Test Kit Here it is: http://www.steamquality.co.uk/Steam_Test_Kit.htm http://www.steamquality.co.uk/steam%20pdf/SQTK__Accessories_Brochure.pdf mmmh i see a temperature probe with datalogger... mic
[Vo]:Rossi keeps inviting
Peter Ekstrom will join the October's party? Greven Grevesson August 2nd, 2011 at 4:32 PM Dear mr. Rossi As many others I want October to approach faster as this is very exciting! I have a small request for you, and I have seen the same request before: could you please consider to invite Peter Ekström from the university of Lund to the October demonstration? He is a very well renomated nuclear scientist and has previously been asked to analyze your machine. He is sceptic based on scientific evaluations, but has never bad mouthed you. If he says the machine works after the demonstration there will no longer be any doubt around your fascinating invention. Here is his contact information: http://www.lunduniversity.lu.se/o.o.i.s?id=24911task=listEngPersonusername=nucl-pek Best Regards Greven Grevesson Andrea Rossi August 2nd, 2011 at 7:10 PM Dear Greven Grevesson: You are right: I will invite Prof. Peter Ekstrom to visit the plant. Warm Regards, A.R.
Re: [Vo]:[e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless
Thanks Mattia, Le grandezze derivate che lo strumento permette di visualizzare sono calcolate dai diagrammi di Mollier The derived quantities that the tool allows you to view are calculated from Mollier diagrams http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/mollier-diagram-water-d_308.html How did Galantini use the probe to meausure enthalpy? Reading from the datalogger or using a Mollier diagram knowing temperature and pressure? In the latter he used only the temperature reading and ignored the other quantities on the display and derived the quantity by hand (or by a program on the pc)? Does anyone know if there is a reference in the reports of the tests to understand how did they read the instrument? I find this in http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/EssenHexperiment.pdf: The system to measure the non-evaporated water was a certified Testo System, Testo 650, with a probe guaranteed to resist up to 550°C That is another type of datalogger and probe, but functionality seems the same as deltaohm's. Reading of RH on the screen of the datalogger would not make sense. So did they calculate the wet fraction afterwards or did they have it shown on the pc? Else they read the number on the little LCD display?? that would be at least bogus mic Il 04 agosto 2011 11:48, Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com ha scritto: Hello. Engineer from delta ohm (manufacter) confirms that: 1) The instruments measure enthalpy BY CALCULATION, given RH and temperature, with Mollier diagrams 2) The probe is suitable only for mneasure humidity IN AIR, not in 100% vapor mixture 3) Inside the e-cat, without air and with liquid parctile of water suspended, the instrukment is over range of operation and will likely give random numbers --- ITALIAN TEXT BELOW --- Da: Antonio Morra [eng.a.mo...@gmail.com] Inviato: mercoledì 3 agosto 2011 17.27 A: DE LEONARDIS, MARCO Oggetto: Misura acqua/vapore Gentile dottor De Leonardis Ho gia' inviato una risposta simile ad un'altra persona. Come le sara' chiaro dalla specifica e dalle istruzioni dello strumento, questo e' in grado di misurare alcuni parametri della umidita' presente nell'aria. Non credo di aver capito pertanto, cosa lei intende per frazione di acqua liquida in una emissione di vapore oltretutto probabilmente quasi privo di aria . Il nostro strumento utilizza un sensore che permette di misurare la umidita' relativa nell'aria e non altro. Le grandezze derivate che lo strumento permette di visualizzare sono calcolate dai diagrammi di Mollier, utilizzando algoritmi numerici molto precisi. Conoscendo la umidita' relativa e la temperatura del gas in esame si possono derivare le quantita' elencate nel nostro manuale, e precisamente: Umidita' Assoluta (in g acqua su mcubo gas) Rapporto di mescolanza ( g acqua su kg gas) Punto di rugiada (in gradi centigradi) Entalpia (kJoule/Kg) Si puo' anche calcolare la equivalente Temperatura di bulbo umido (gradi centigradi) , secondo un algoritmo che approssima i risultati di uno psicrometro a fionda. Poiche' la misura originale e' data dalla umidita' percentuale va da se' che i valori di bassissima umidita' relativa (inferiori al 2%) o di altissima umidita' relativa (oltre il 95%), cioe' gli estremi di misura, sono relativamente meno affidabili e le misure derivate da simili valori sono meno precise. Il riferimento che viene fatto ad un gas senza aria in cui esiste vapore ( cioe' H2O gassoso) e acqua liquida cioe' ... acqua , a mio modo di vedere non e' altro che un sistema bifase acqua ( le goccioline) + vapore d'acqua . O se vogliamo vederlo al contrario : vapore d'acqua in presenza della sua condensa. Il sensore NON e' adatto a misurare la quantita' di condensa , per quello che lo riguarda non appena c'e' anche una sola goccia, in aria, ci si trova oltre il 100% di umidita' relativa. Se poi aria non ce ne e', tutto il ragionamento e' senza riferimenti certi, dato che non esiste piu' il concetto stesso di umidita' relativa. In condizioni del genere la risposta e' priva di senso, in quanto sara' senza meno fuori scala e sinceramente non saprei cosa possa indicare. Immaginare di metterlo in acqua per vedere cosa segna non penso possa aiutare. Normalmente quando avviene condensa sul sensore cioe' esso si bagna di acqua, per esempio per determinate condizioni di sbalzi atmosferici, la nostra preoccupazione e' quanto tempo ci mette a riprendersi e uscire dalla indicazione del 100%. Il sensore puo' essere lavato in acqua deionizzata, ma e' una operazione che va comunque fatta con delicatezza e fa decadere la garanzia. Spero questo possa essere utile, mi faccia sapere. Saluti Antonio Morra, DeltaOhm
Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless
I hope Galantini uses T and P and T is correct. Some of those probes measure also P and that is correct too. Looking at a Mollier diag you know the dryness. If Galantini did not measure P in the outlet or he used RH by the probe, well he has a problem! or he knows something we do not know... mic Il 04 agosto 2011 12:56, Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com ha scritto: Delta ohm's engineer say that the entalphy is calculated by the instrument, knwoing RH and temperature of gas. This is in accordance with the manual of the instrument. SInce RH measurement is flawed, all other derived measurements are flawed too. -Messaggio originale- From: Michele Comitini Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 12:35 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:[e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless Thanks Mattia, Le grandezze derivate che lo strumento permette di visualizzare sono calcolate dai diagrammi di Mollier The derived quantities that the tool allows you to view are calculated from Mollier diagrams http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/mollier-diagram-water-d_308.html How did Galantini use the probe to meausure enthalpy? Reading from the datalogger or using a Mollier diagram knowing temperature and pressure? In the latter he used only the temperature reading and ignored the other quantities on the display and derived the quantity by hand (or by a program on the pc)? Does anyone know if there is a reference in the reports of the tests to understand how did they read the instrument? I find this in http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/EssenHexperiment.pdf: The system to measure the non-evaporated water was a certified Testo System, Testo 650, with a probe guaranteed to resist up to 550°C That is another type of datalogger and probe, but functionality seems the same as deltaohm's. Reading of RH on the screen of the datalogger would not make sense. So did they calculate the wet fraction afterwards or did they have it shown on the pc? Else they read the number on the little LCD display?? that would be at least bogus mic Il 04 agosto 2011 11:48, Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com ha scritto: Hello. Engineer from delta ohm (manufacter) confirms that: 1) The instruments measure enthalpy BY CALCULATION, given RH and temperature, with Mollier diagrams 2) The probe is suitable only for mneasure humidity IN AIR, not in 100% vapor mixture 3) Inside the e-cat, without air and with liquid parctile of water suspended, the instrukment is over range of operation and will likely give random numbers --- ITALIAN TEXT BELOW --- Da: Antonio Morra [eng.a.mo...@gmail.com] Inviato: mercoledì 3 agosto 2011 17.27 A: DE LEONARDIS, MARCO Oggetto: Misura acqua/vapore Gentile dottor De Leonardis Ho gia' inviato una risposta simile ad un'altra persona. Come le sara' chiaro dalla specifica e dalle istruzioni dello strumento, questo e' in grado di misurare alcuni parametri della umidita' presente nell'aria. Non credo di aver capito pertanto, cosa lei intende per frazione di acqua liquida in una emissione di vapore oltretutto probabilmente quasi privo di aria . Il nostro strumento utilizza un sensore che permette di misurare la umidita' relativa nell'aria e non altro. Le grandezze derivate che lo strumento permette di visualizzare sono calcolate dai diagrammi di Mollier, utilizzando algoritmi numerici molto precisi. Conoscendo la umidita' relativa e la temperatura del gas in esame si possono derivare le quantita' elencate nel nostro manuale, e precisamente: Umidita' Assoluta (in g acqua su mcubo gas) Rapporto di mescolanza ( g acqua su kg gas) Punto di rugiada (in gradi centigradi) Entalpia (kJoule/Kg) Si puo' anche calcolare la equivalente Temperatura di bulbo umido (gradi centigradi) , secondo un algoritmo che approssima i risultati di uno psicrometro a fionda. Poiche' la misura originale e' data dalla umidita' percentuale va da se' che i valori di bassissima umidita' relativa (inferiori al 2%) o di altissima umidita' relativa (oltre il 95%), cioe' gli estremi di misura, sono relativamente meno affidabili e le misure derivate da simili valori sono meno precise. Il riferimento che viene fatto ad un gas senza aria in cui esiste vapore ( cioe' H2O gassoso) e acqua liquida cioe' ... acqua , a mio modo di vedere non e' altro che un sistema bifase acqua ( le goccioline) + vapore d'acqua . O se vogliamo vederlo al contrario : vapore d'acqua in presenza della sua condensa. Il sensore NON e' adatto a misurare la quantita' di condensa , per quello che lo riguarda non appena c'e' anche una sola goccia, in aria, ci si trova oltre il 100% di umidita' relativa. Se poi aria non ce ne e', tutto il ragionamento e' senza riferimenti certi, dato che non esiste piu' il concetto stesso di umidita' relativa. In condizioni del genere la risposta e' priva di senso, in quanto sara' senza meno fuori scala e
Re: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless
From Essen report we can expect that they used a pt100 probe: http://www.testo.co.uk/online/abaxx-?$part=PORTAL.GBR.ProductCategoryDesk.active-area.catalog.ProductDetail.details.probes works up to 550° C (the value reported by Essen) now to calculate the x (dryness factor) from a Mollier diagram what is missing is the pressure so the question is: how did they measure the pressure? mic Il 04 agosto 2011 13:21, Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com ha scritto: I hope Galantini uses T and P and T is correct. Some of those probes measure also P and that is correct too. Looking at a Mollier diag you know the dryness. If Galantini did not measure P in the outlet or he used RH by the probe, well he has a problem! or he knows something we do not know... mic Il 04 agosto 2011 12:56, Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com ha scritto: Delta ohm's engineer say that the entalphy is calculated by the instrument, knwoing RH and temperature of gas. This is in accordance with the manual of the instrument. SInce RH measurement is flawed, all other derived measurements are flawed too. -Messaggio originale- From: Michele Comitini Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 12:35 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:[e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless Thanks Mattia, Le grandezze derivate che lo strumento permette di visualizzare sono calcolate dai diagrammi di Mollier The derived quantities that the tool allows you to view are calculated from Mollier diagrams http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/mollier-diagram-water-d_308.html How did Galantini use the probe to meausure enthalpy? Reading from the datalogger or using a Mollier diagram knowing temperature and pressure? In the latter he used only the temperature reading and ignored the other quantities on the display and derived the quantity by hand (or by a program on the pc)? Does anyone know if there is a reference in the reports of the tests to understand how did they read the instrument? I find this in http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/EssenHexperiment.pdf: The system to measure the non-evaporated water was a certified Testo System, Testo 650, with a probe guaranteed to resist up to 550°C That is another type of datalogger and probe, but functionality seems the same as deltaohm's. Reading of RH on the screen of the datalogger would not make sense. So did they calculate the wet fraction afterwards or did they have it shown on the pc? Else they read the number on the little LCD display?? that would be at least bogus mic Il 04 agosto 2011 11:48, Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com ha scritto: Hello. Engineer from delta ohm (manufacter) confirms that: 1) The instruments measure enthalpy BY CALCULATION, given RH and temperature, with Mollier diagrams 2) The probe is suitable only for mneasure humidity IN AIR, not in 100% vapor mixture 3) Inside the e-cat, without air and with liquid parctile of water suspended, the instrukment is over range of operation and will likely give random numbers --- ITALIAN TEXT BELOW --- Da: Antonio Morra [eng.a.mo...@gmail.com] Inviato: mercoledì 3 agosto 2011 17.27 A: DE LEONARDIS, MARCO Oggetto: Misura acqua/vapore Gentile dottor De Leonardis Ho gia' inviato una risposta simile ad un'altra persona. Come le sara' chiaro dalla specifica e dalle istruzioni dello strumento, questo e' in grado di misurare alcuni parametri della umidita' presente nell'aria. Non credo di aver capito pertanto, cosa lei intende per frazione di acqua liquida in una emissione di vapore oltretutto probabilmente quasi privo di aria . Il nostro strumento utilizza un sensore che permette di misurare la umidita' relativa nell'aria e non altro. Le grandezze derivate che lo strumento permette di visualizzare sono calcolate dai diagrammi di Mollier, utilizzando algoritmi numerici molto precisi. Conoscendo la umidita' relativa e la temperatura del gas in esame si possono derivare le quantita' elencate nel nostro manuale, e precisamente: Umidita' Assoluta (in g acqua su mcubo gas) Rapporto di mescolanza ( g acqua su kg gas) Punto di rugiada (in gradi centigradi) Entalpia (kJoule/Kg) Si puo' anche calcolare la equivalente Temperatura di bulbo umido (gradi centigradi) , secondo un algoritmo che approssima i risultati di uno psicrometro a fionda. Poiche' la misura originale e' data dalla umidita' percentuale va da se' che i valori di bassissima umidita' relativa (inferiori al 2%) o di altissima umidita' relativa (oltre il 95%), cioe' gli estremi di misura, sono relativamente meno affidabili e le misure derivate da simili valori sono meno precise. Il riferimento che viene fatto ad un gas senza aria in cui esiste vapore ( cioe' H2O gassoso) e acqua liquida cioe' ... acqua , a mio modo di vedere non e' altro che un sistema bifase acqua ( le goccioline) + vapore d'acqua . O se vogliamo vederlo al contrario
RE: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless
I cannot find where Galantini declared that he used the RH reading on the datalogger. Did he declare that? Maybe he used the probe because it measures T in the correct range up to 150°C. If he knew the pressure at the point where the probe was then with steam tables or Mollier diagram the quality of steam is derived. Why that probe with RH sensor then? Maybe it just comes bundled with the datalogger. The Essen report points to a probe for temperature only. Did they use a different way to find steam quality? mic
Re: [Vo]:A flow rate of 1 L/s is not unusual or particularly high
If I remember well for industrial applications when you make a contract for water supply, in much of Italy, you can be provided with 20 m3/h without special request. That is 2/3600 l/s. Rossi's facility may have that kind of big pipe from the public aqueduct. mic Il giorno 04/ago/2011 23:14, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com ha scritto: Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote: If there's something that's not reasonable about it, it's the value: 1... Remarkable coincidence, if that's actually an exact 1, as in 1.00. I believe they opened the tap and watched the flow meter needle, and when it reached 1 they stopped. That's how I would do it. It isn't an exact value. Water pressure in a large city in a commercial building is usually stable and the flow rate will not fluctuate much over 18 hours. They told me the rate was 3000 L/h which is 833 ml/s, not quite a liter. These are approximations, as anyone can see. Even if they are wrong by a factor of 10 the excess heat is still tremendous. It is still far more than most cold fusion devices of this size produce. So I wouldn't worry about it, and I don't see why the exact numbers make a damn bit of difference. All of these arguments that it might be far wrong are: 1. Preposterous nonsense. There is no chance it off by more than 20%. 2. Totally unimportant. Who cares whether it is 1.6 kW or 16 kW?!? It makes no practical difference. It is like arguing whether Orville Wright flew 100 feet high or 200 feet high on September 17, 1908. There is absolutely no doubt he flew that day (look it up; you'll see), and it was high enough to negate the ground-effect, so it was definitely flying. Assume for the sake of argument it is 1.6 kW instead of ~16 kW. Going from 1.6 kW with a device of this size up to 16 kW or 200 kW is only a matter of engineering. There are probably thousands of industrial corporate engineering teams that could do that. There is no doubt it can be done. Questioning that is a lot like saying: Okay maybe Mr. Wright *can*reach 100 feet, but he'll never get up to 200 feet! By the way, I sent them yet another message asking for more info, QUOTE: What kind of flowmeter did you use? What was the make and model? What was the inlet water temperature? You told NyTecnik it was 20°C, and you told me it was 15°C. Did you record the temperature with a computer? If so, please send the data or a graph. If not, did you keep a lab notebook and write down the temperatures periodically? In NyTeknik Levi reported that there was a large temperature excursion, up to 40°C. When did this occur, and how many minutes did it continue? If I get a response I will update the LENR-CANR.org news item. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Time for a new poll?
Alan, What about something like Do e-cat's people know how to make correct experiments ? mic Il giorno 04/ago/2011 21:15, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com ha scritto:
RE: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/mollier-diagram-water-d_308.html shows a Mollier diagram, but I see no way to use this diagram to determine steam quality. Dear Abd, I use like this: Take the isobaric curve; Find intersection with temperature. Now you can read the steam quality using the closest red curve. If you need more precision you can read the enthalpy on the left and you can find the mass of vapour and water in a unit of volume by algebraic calculation. As for the steam tables they are everywhere. If you want to play with steam go here : http://www.steamtablesonline.com/ mic Il giorno 05/ago/2011 19:59, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com ha scritto: At 01:43 PM 8/4/2011, Michele Comitini wrote: I cannot find where Galantini declared that he used the RH reading on the datalogger. Did he declare that? He used the g/m^3 reading, which is a calculated reading. I believe that this reading does consider pressure, if the information is available. Maybe he used the probe because it measures T in the correct range up to 150°C. Sure. However, that rating doesn't mean that it provides accurate readings all through that range. http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/3717appendixc1.shtml If he knew the pressure at the point where the probe was then with steam tables or Mollier diagram the quality of steam is derived. Why that probe with RH sensor then? Maybe it just comes bundled with the datalogger. The reading for g/m^3 requires the humidity sensor. The Essen report points to a probe for temperature only. Did they use a different way to find steam quality? Essen and Kullander also report relying upon the g/m^3 display. Michele, you have not pointed to a specific steam table that allows the derivation of quality of steam. Derived from what? For saturated steam, which is obviously the condition in the E-Cats, the pressure and temperature are nailed to each other, and it is independent of quality of the steam. Only if the temperature rises above the saturated steam temperature for the pressure will the quality of the steam be determinable. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/mollier-diagram-water-d_308.html shows a Mollier diagram, but I see no way to use this diagram to determine steam quality. The question of how to use the Testo device to measure steam quality has been asked many times. The manufacturer and many others have stated it cannot be done. Nobody who claims it can be done has shown the procedure. Galantini provided no data as readings from the meter, and no description of determination. http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/3717appendixc1.shtml However, he states: I confirm that the measured temperature always was higher than 100.1°C and that the measured pressure in the chimney always was equal to the ambient pressure. It appears that Galantini thinks that the temperature of 100.1 C and pressure at ambient -- which he does not state -- is adequate to determine that the steam is dry. However, he's totally neglected that pressure inside the E-Cat *must* be greater than ambient, or steam would not flow out. The measured temperature of 100.5 in the Marwan report for April indicates a pressure of, as I recall, 1.03 bar for saturated steam. Some of us have done the calculations for expected steam velocity and pressure if all the water were being vaporized. Galantini, if he did measure the pressure in the E-cat and found it to be ambient, was making an approximation. That the temperature is very stable indicates that the steam is saturated, which means it is at least somewhat wet. All appearances are that Galantini made a major mistake, and he's not responded with actual data, nor with a description of his procedure. Bottom line, then, his testimony means nothing. He is not an expert on steam, he's a chemist, he happens to own a company which does environmental testing, so he had the Testo data logger, I'd assume, in stock and he offered to help, having no understanding of the issues. About the device: http://www.deltaohm.com/ver2010/uk/st_airQ.php?str=HD37AB1347 With the HP474AC probe, the device will measure temperature up to 150 C., with an accuracy of +/- 0.3 C, and humidity up to 100% with an accuracy, over 95%, of +/- 3.5%. It measures atmospheric pressure, but the sensor is not in the probe, it appears. It's in the device. So we have a new mystery: how did Galantini determine that pressure in the E-cat was ambient. Did he simply read the pressure display and assume this was from the probe? I can imagine someone unfamiliar with the instrument making that mistake. Rather, we have a very strong indicator of the pressure: it was at saturated steam pressure for the temperature. The evidence for this is the stable temperature observed, without a major excursion above a stable temperature. Once the steam is completely dry, the temperature can and very likely will rise. The appearance is very strong from
RE: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless
Anyway i searched all possible reference of text written on the internet by Galantini about the e-cat measurements and he does not mention steam tables nor Mollier diagrams but psychrometric tables which i do not understand how to use with steam... does anyone have a clue? mic Il giorno 05/ago/2011 22:55, Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com ha scritto: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/mollier-diagram-water-d_308.html shows a Mollier diagram, but I see no way to use this diagram to determine steam quality. Dear Abd, I use like this: Take the isobaric curve; Find intersection with temperature. Now you can read the steam quality using the closest red curve. If you need more precision you can read the enthalpy on the left and you can find the mass of vapour and water in a unit of volume by algebraic calculation. As for the steam tables they are everywhere. If you want to play with steam go here : http://www.steamtablesonline.com/ mic Il giorno 05/ago/2011 19:59, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com ha scritto: At 01:43 PM 8/4/2011, Michele Comitini wrote: I cannot find where Galantini declared that he used the RH reading on the datalogger. Did he declare that? He used the g/m^3 reading, which is a calculated reading. I believe that this reading does consider pressure, if the information is available. Maybe he used the probe because it measures T in the correct range up to 150°C. Sure. However, that rating doesn't mean that it provides accurate readings all through that range. http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/3717appendixc1.shtml If he knew the pressure at the point where the probe was then with steam tables or Mollier diagram the quality of steam is derived. Why that probe with RH sensor then? Maybe it just comes bundled with the datalogger. The reading for g/m^3 requires the humidity sensor. The Essen report points to a probe for temperature only. Did they use a different way to find steam quality? Essen and Kullander also report relying upon the g/m^3 display. Michele, you have not pointed to a specific steam table that allows the derivation of quality of steam. Derived from what? For saturated steam, which is obviously the condition in the E-Cats, the pressure and temperature are nailed to each other, and it is independent of quality of the steam. Only if the temperature rises above the saturated steam temperature for the pressure will the quality of the steam be determinable. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/mollier-diagram-water-d_308.html shows a Mollier diagram, but I see no way to use this diagram to determine steam quality. The question of how to use the Testo device to measure steam quality has been asked many times. The manufacturer and many others have stated it cannot be done. Nobody who claims it can be done has shown the procedure. Galantini provided no data as readings from the meter, and no description of determination. http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/3717appendixc1.shtml However, he states: I confirm that the measured temperature always was higher than 100.1°C and that the measured pressure in the chimney always was equal to the ambient pressure. It appears that Galantini thinks that the temperature of 100.1 C and pressure at ambient -- which he does not state -- is adequate to determine that the steam is dry. However, he's totally neglected that pressure inside the E-Cat *must* be greater than ambient, or steam would not flow out. The measured temperature of 100.5 in the Marwan report for April indicates a pressure of, as I recall, 1.03 bar for saturated steam. Some of us have done the calculations for expected steam velocity and pressure if all the water were being vaporized. Galantini, if he did measure the pressure in the E-cat and found it to be ambient, was making an approximation. That the temperature is very stable indicates that the steam is saturated, which means it is at least somewhat wet. All appearances are that Galantini made a major mistake, and he's not responded with actual data, nor with a description of his procedure. Bottom line, then, his testimony means nothing. He is not an expert on steam, he's a chemist, he happens to own a company which does environmental testing, so he had the Testo data logger, I'd assume, in stock and he offered to help, having no understanding of the issues. About the device: http://www.deltaohm.com/ver2010/uk/st_airQ.php?str=HD37AB1347 With the HP474AC probe, the device will measure temperature up to 150 C., with an accuracy of +/- 0.3 C, and humidity up to 100% with an accuracy, over 95%, of +/- 3.5%. It measures atmospheric pressure, but the sensor is not in the probe, it appears. It's in the device. So we have a new mystery: how did Galantini determine that pressure in the E-cat was ambient. Did he simply read the pressure display and assume this was from the probe? I can
RE: [Vo]:Re: [e-cat] Engineer from delta ohm confirms that galantini instrument is useless
Abd, The answer to the question why there aren't any isothermal curves in the phase change area? is exactly the consequence of your experiments with the steam calculator: at constant pressure the temperature does not change. So if you change one the other follows linearly. If you look on Wikipedia you will find diagrams which approximate the phase change with higher accuracy and you will see that isotherms are not exactly parallel to isobars, the difference is tiny. If to the e-cat could be applied the Mollier diagrams as if it were a steam boiler the results would confirm a dry steam. But is the e-cat a steam boiler? mic mic Il giorno 06/ago/2011 04:50, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com ha scritto: At 04:55 PM 8/5/2011, Michele Comitini wrote: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/mollier-diagram-water-d_308.html http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/mollier-diagram-water-d_308.html shows a Mollier diagram, but I see no way to use this diagram to determine steam quality. Dear Abd, I use like this: Take the isobaric curve; Find intersection with temperature. Now you can read the steam quality using the closest red curve. If you need more precision you can read the enthalpy on the left and you can find the mass of vapour and water in a unit of volume by algebraic calculation. Great. Isobaric curve for 1 bar. Intersects the tempurature curve at 100 C. Steam quality 100%. What does this mean? That all steam at 100 C and 1 bar is 100% dry? The temperature lines do not go below 100%, anywhere. As for the steam tables they are everywhere. If you want to play with steam go here :Â http://www.steamtablesonline.com/http://www.steamtablesonline.com/ I looked at the calculator there and found that the pressure/temperature relationship did not change with a change in steam quality. Steam quality affects the enthalpy, drastically.
RE: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
Reading the announcement on Rossi's blog it seems that he wants to underline the fact that he did not pass any secret (voluntarily) to DGT. So to say that he want to go on the industrial espionage road for the legal battle. Probably he feels his shoulders backed by the US partners. mic Il giorno 07/ago/2011 20:07, Mark Iverson zeropo...@charter.net ha scritto: These are very interesting developments indeed... And not unexpected. As Einstein said, Without morality in out actions, there is no salvation for mankind. It's hard enough finding business people who have a high level of integrity when times are good, but given the dismal state of affairs in the world today, especially in Greece, Russia and many other countries, people are desperate, and desperate people do desperate (or devious) things. I think Jones' speculation that it was Defkalion's intention from the very beginning to play Rossi until they had what they needed from him, is the most likely scenario here. Pretty rotten and despicable behavior, but not at all a surprise... There are cultures in the world that have no problem whatsoever of lying and misleading the other party in a business deal... Their attitude is if you are too stupid or naïve or idealistic in your business dealings, that's your problem... And they will exploit you as much as you are willing to put up with. Rossi had very good reason to be secretive... -Mark
Re: [Vo]:Not off topic - 710 MHz
In the meanwhile I am going to have some metal plates implanted over my skull... no over the whole body... newer phones are always connected and trasmitting due to internet connection. mic 2011/8/10 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com: On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Isn't the radiation more intense when the signal is generated right next to your scull? I wouldn't know but that is what I heard. Cell phones are low powered but they are held right up against the head. It follows the inverse square law, basically. But, the cell phones are typically 100 milliWatts; whereas, the broadcast signals are in the megaWatt range. There are levels considered safe for non-ionizing radiation; however, those numbers vary from country to country. For example, Russia considers safe levels which are 100 times less than what we consider safe. Truth is, no one really knows what is a safe level. T
[Vo]:Interesting mail from Celani about E-cats gammas
From Daniele Passerini's 22passi: http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/08/celani-risponde-sulla-misura-dei-gamma.html google translation: http://goo.gl/L9rYf mic
Re: [Vo]:eCat Steam Calculator
Alan, Thanks. Seeing all in one place and same format is very helpful. mic 2011/9/13 Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com: I finally got round to finishing my ecat steam calculator, and entered all of the steam experiments. http://lenr.qumbu.com/steam_calc.php See the Help file for details. I have most of the important steam parameters available, so I could easily add other calculations -- eg I could calculate the outlet steam velocity.
[Vo]:1MW Indipendent testing?
From JONP. Andrea Rossi September 13th, 2011 at 6:19 AM Dear Malcom Lear: Yes, Warm Regards, A.R. Malcolm Lear September 13th, 2011 at 5:48 AM Hi Andrea, Could you tell us if independent testing of the 1Mw plant is already in progress. Ciao Malcolm mic
[Vo]:Bologna + Upsala RD
From JONP Andrea Rossi September 14th, 2011 at 4:19 PM Dear AB: Bologna: already in operation the RD, at its initial steps. Uppsala: sooner than expected you will have news. Warm Regards, A.R. mic
Re: [Vo]:Thoughts on the eCat and 130C steam
About basic of operation of BWR and steam related to nuclear there is good reference and also theory of operation on CANDU http://goo.gl/6iXex look for thermodynamics and hydraulics. mic 2011/9/16 Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com: 2011/9/17 Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com: Given that his new test will be a prototype of a nuclear reactor, look at the examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Boiling_water_reactor_english.svg Finally someone realized that E-Cat is just typical miniature BWR! ^^ Therefore Rossi's reluctance to do sub-boiling demonstrations, because they do not make any sense, from engineering point of view. And if you understand how BWR operates, then the sub-boiling demonstrations would not make any sense from scientific perspective, because enthalpy calculations are more accurate when made from steam. Of course only if you know what you are doing, what Galantini et al. obviously did not know. –Jouni
Re: [Vo]:Calulations for 1 MW plant.
Side note: the 52 E-cats at 80 kg each should have a mass of 4160 kg! I wonder what the shipping cost on that is? Must be cheap (compared to sending a space aircraft across the ocean). Those containers are standard they can carry up to 25000 kg. A big ship carries thousands of those. see for instance: http://www.worldshipping.org/ mic
[Vo]:Shipping Rossi container
Is the 1MW container on its way to US? Sending something like that can take weeks. They must have packed everything and sent. The end of october is near. mic
Re: [Vo]:Thoughts on the eCat and 130C steam
About multiple e-kittens in a box, question 2) from the exchange below on JONP: Andrea Rossi September 16th, 2011 at 4:23 AM Dear Alessandro Casali: 1- I prefer not to give this info, for security reasons 2- multiple 3- see 1 4- yes 5- longer 6- will need drive time to time 7- everything upgrades in time 8- I ddid NOT say that we are already working, I said the first steps have been made: signed the contract and some other thing. The proper RD with the University of Bologna did not start yet. Warm Regards, A.R. Alessandro Casali September 16th, 2011 at 3:39 AM Dear Dr. Rossi, glad to see your Plant in the flash, many congratulations! I didn’t know you were assembling the plant in Bologna, i thought it was in US? did you manufacture also the cores in Italy or have you shipped them trom US? The 27MW e-cats are single core or do they have multiple cores? Did you already ship the plant to US? I was surprised by the weight (80kg) of the latest e-cats, did you increase the thickness of the lead shield? Mats Lewan says self sustained mode can last up to 30 min and then needs some 10 mins of input power to keep reaction going, is it exactly like that or can it last any longer? Do you think future generations of e-cat will be able to run always in self sustained mode or do you think they will always need input energy from time to time? If non always in self sustained mode, do you think future e-cats will reach a better balance than 1-6? if yes what do you think could be the maximum balance? Since you recently stated UNIBO is already working on e-cat RD, does that mean that you have already provided them with an e-cat? Thanks for your patience in reading my lot of questions. Warm Regards, ac. 2011/9/20 Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com: Peter, thanks for this idea. This superheating process to eliminate corrosive agents might be plausible with Rossi. Therefore we might not be able to trust thermometer as a reliable pressure sensor, if it is not placed under the liquid water level. But we need to find other means to measure pressure inside, if we are to do accurate calorimetry. And also special thank you for understanding why steam quality is important factor in the industry. Indeed, water droplets in the suspension may cause corrosion in the long run. This tells something how misplaced steam quality discussion has been. —Jouni On Sep 19, 2011 8:30 PM, Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: Am 16.09.2011 21:26, schrieb Alan J Fletcher: At 11:57 AM 9/16/2011, Peter Heckert wrote: The important information is: There is no superheated steam because inside the ecat is everything almost at boiling temperature. For superheated steam you need an extra heater that heats the steam and there is none. Because the temperature inside the e-cat is above 100 degrees the boiling temperature inside must be above 100 degrees and therefore the pressure inside the ecat must be above 1 bar. I still think that the 2-chamber design explains more than the 1-chamber 3-bar design. The core could easily be engineered with a water-efficient heat exchanger in one chamber, and a steam-efficient heat exchanger in the other. Someone had the idea Rossi might have multiple small e-cats in this big box. Possibly he uses one for superheating and possibly this did not work as intended. This would explain his claims superheated steam, water comes from condensation. He told us what he believed, but he was in error he didnt understand what was going on. Apparently he doesnt know that the purpose of superheated steam is to avoid condensation. If there is superheated steam and the hose is isolated then it is always hotter than 100 centigrade inside and there is no condensation and no water erosion. This is the reason why they superheat steam in industrial machines. Best, Peter
Re: [Vo]:stopping
+1 good luck 2011/9/20 Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com: At 02:24 PM 9/20/2011, Horace Heffner wrote: I have just lost about 50% (left side) of my left eye. It may be a retinal detachment. It seems to be coming back. I may not respond for a bit. Sorry to hear that good luck!
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
Standard pipes use inches as unit of measure. Should be one in the table: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_Pipe_Size mic 2011/9/21 Joe Catania zrosumg...@aol.com: Have it your way. Still there is little pressure necessary. - Original Message - From: Alan J Fletcher To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat At 04:00 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: But look at the size of the orifice in the video. http://lenr.qumbu.com/steampics/110920_sept_0007.jpg http://lenr.qumbu.com/steampics/110920_sept_0009.jpg 1cm diameter, maximum.
Re: [Vo]:CERN clocks subatomic particles traveling faster than light
You can see the experiment explained right now... http://webcast.web.cern.ch/webcast/ mic 2011/9/23 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com: Don't bury Einstein yet: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20957-dimensionhop-may-allow-neutrinos-to-cheat-light-speed.html Sher also mentions a third option: that the measurement is correct. Some theories posit that there are extra, hidden dimensions beyond the familiar four (three of space, one of time). It's possible that the speedy neutrinos tunnel through these extra dimensions, reducing the distance they have to travel to get to the target. This would explain the measurement without requiring the speed of light to be broken. Those neutrinos probably knew a short cut in the other 6 dimensions. :-) T
Re: [Vo]:INFORMAVOREs SUNDAY i.e, TUESDAY No 474
Dear Peter, in the land of TM-LENR the things are going well, in the good direction but have to be accelerated. You cannot just leave us like that. Now you must tell more! ;-) Mass tourism is more a kind of moneytheistic ritual and a good opportunity to state that you are are old and obsolete. Mainstream Toscana is expensive and crowded I hope you were able to avoid some of that. mic
Re: [Vo]:Regarding Rossi and NASA (+ some Piantelli news)
All bets are off. The catalyst that ignites Rossi's powerful hot reactions is now well known and proven: KrIvIt. mic 2011/9/29 Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com On 2011-09-28 20:00, Akira Shirakawa wrote: Hello Group, Have a read at Krivit's latest blog post here: This is Rossi's rebuttal: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-**physics.com/?p=510cpage=9#**comment-83748http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=9#comment-83748 WARNING: THE SNAKE HAS WRITTEN IN HIS BLOG THAT NASA MADE A NOT POSITIVE TEST WITH US. THIS IS TOTALLY FALSE. I AM BOUND FROM A CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT AND I CANNOT GIVE DETAILED INFORMATION, BUT I CAN SAY THAT: 1- WE ARE IN CONTACT WITH NASA, WHO WANTS TO TEST OUR ECATS TO TEST THE POSSIBILITY TO MAKE THEM USEFUL FOR THEIR PURPOSES 2- NASA’S DENNIS.M.BUSHNELL HAS SAID PUBILCLY THAT NASA WILL BUY AN E-CAT AS SOON AS IT WILL BE POSSIBLE TO TEST IT 3- OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH NASA IS TOTALLY POSITIVE IN A SEPARATE STATEMENT, A SNAKE’S ACCOLITE WROTE THAT THE TEST WE ARE GOING TO DO ON THE 6TH OF OCTOBER WILL BE ALWAYS MADE WITH STEAM. UNFORTUNATELY, WHEN YOU SPEAK WITH THIS PEOPLE YOU DEAL WITH PERSONS THAT HAVE REAL DIFFICULTIES TO UNDERSTAND A TITLE OF A NEWSPAPER IF THEY ARE AT THE SAME TIME CHEWING A GUM, BUT, JUST TO AVOID CONFUSION I REPEAT THAT: THE MEASUREMENTS WILL BE MADE ON LIQUID WATER. WE WILL HAVE THE STEAM PRODUCED FROM THE REACTOR THAT WILL WORK IN A CLOSED LOOP, WHICH IS THE PRIMARY CIRCUIT, AND THE STEAM ITSELF EXCHANGES HEAT WITH THE LIQUID WATER IN A SECONDARY CLOSED CIRCUIT, SO THAT THE WATER IS HEATED BY THE STEAM THROUGH THE WALLS OF A HEAT EXCHANGER. WE WILL MEASURE THE ENERGY TAKING THE DELTA T OF THE WATER, THE WATER, THE WATER, NOT OF THE STEAM NOT OF THE STEAM, NOT OF THE STEAM, THEREFORE THE ISSUE OF THE QUALITY OF THE STEAM HAS ABSOLUTELY NOT IMPORTANCE, BECAURE WE DO NOT MEASURE THE ENERGY FROM THE STEAM !!! WE COULD PUT IN THE PRIMARY CIRCUIT STEAM, DIATHERMIC OIL, GLYCOLE, COCA COLA: IT IS ABSOLUTELY IRRILEVANT WHICH IS THE FLUID IN THE PRIMARY CIRCUIT AS FOR CONCERNS THE MEASUREMENT OF THE ENERGY BECAUSE WE MEASURE THE ENERGY ONLY MULTIPLYING THE CUBIC METERS OF WATER FLOWING THROUGH THE SECONDARY CIRCUIT BY THE DELTA t OBTAINED SUBTRACTING FROM THE TEMPERATURE OF THE WATER (LIQUID) OF THE SECONDARY CIRCUIT AT THE EXIT FROM THE HEAT EXCHANGER THE TEMPERATURE OF THE SAME LIQUID WATER AT THE INPUT OF THE SAME HEAT EXCHANGER. ANDREA ROSSI Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Coutdown at ecat.com
Is that an e-cat related site? http://www.who.is/website-information/ecat.com/ Seems to be E.CAT. from Electric Catalog mic 2011/9/30 Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com Thanks. So, it was synchronized with my computer's clock. 2011/9/30 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com It's a countdown clock. Zero hour will be 6:00pm Eastern on 9/30/2011. It says We are currently building a new site which will be ready soon. In the mean time you can follow join our newsletter to stay updated on our progress. T On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: What I mean is, what does the countdown show to you, in your timezone? What happens to that website if you put a later date, say, tomorrow, in your computer's clock?
Re: [Vo]:Ecat.com is about steaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Luca Salvarani October 1st, 2011 at 4:30 AM Le faccio un grossissimo in bocca al lupo per il prossimo test e sono sicuro che andrà bene convincendo gli scettici in buona fede, gli altri meglio ignorarli. Le faccio solo 2 domande: 1. Quanto è possibile migliorare ulteriormente l’efficienza degli e-cat, adesso che il processo fisico sottostante è chiaro? 2. L’incredibile flusso di vapore (immagino dell’impianto da 1 MW) che si vede nel video del sito ecat.com è stato filmato dal vivo? Se cosi fosse sarebbe pazzesco, meglio delle mie più rosee aspettative e a quel punto non ci sarebbe più scettico che tenga! In bocca al lupo e un grosso abbraccio! E si riposi ogni tanto! gtranslated: Luca Salvarani October 1st, 2011 at 4:30 AM I make a very big good luck for the next test and I'm sure that will fit in good faith by convincing the skeptics, ignore others better. I make only 2 questions: 1. How can further improve the efficiency of e-cat, now that the underlying physical process is clear? 2. The stunning flow of steam (I guess of the plant of 1 MW) is seen in the video it was filmed ecat.com site live? If so, it would be crazy, better than my wildest expectations and then there would be no more skeptical that could last! Good luck and a big hug! And every so often do rest! Andrea Rossi October 1st, 2011 at 4:42 AM Dear Luca Salvarani: 1- probably will be possible to extend the self sustained mode 2- The steam swoosh you saw is from a 10 kW module Warm Regards, A.R. p.s. For gum chewers: please go to a dictionary and search:” Irony”. 2011/10/1 Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com: That countdown was running for many months... I thought it was done by AR... (Not the steam in the video).
Re: Re: [Vo]:Rossi's semptember test with NASAinvestors
What is that? currency devaluation? mic 2011/10/5 Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com: 2011/10/5 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com: On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:30 AM, peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: This is a multimillions of dollars project if he can sell it. Multibillions (10^9+). Multitrillions (10^12+). –Jouni
[Vo]:Absolutely Radiant (i.e. don't do it at home)
Dear List, Just for fun while waiting for the verdict. This is a classical example of how improvised experimenters can make disasters: http://goo.gl/1hyDS (http://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1994-25.html) mic
Re: [Vo]:Steorn's CEO Posts Overunity Heater Video
Is hot water the new big business? ;-) In Italian reinventing the wheel is said as reinventare l'acqua calda i.e. reinventing hot water... mic 2011/10/5 OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com: http://pesn.com/2011/10/05/9501927_Steorn_CEO_Posts_Overunity_Heater_Video/ Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[Vo]:Uppsala + Bologna Universities present
Hello, To stay informed follow 22passi (Daniele Passerini thank you) on Twitter. Presence of UoB and UoU seems confirmed. @22passi Daniele Passerini Confermata la presenza delle Università di Bologna e Uppsala domani al test. mic
Re: [Vo]:Uppsala + Bologna Universities present
Terry, I guess she is scientific journalist https://mobile.twitter.com/#!/22passi/status/121895218462203904 mic Il giorno 06/ott/2011 13:25, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com ha scritto: On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 6:39 AM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: On 2011-10-06 01:11, Michele Comitini wrote: Hello, To stay informed follow 22passi (Daniele Passerini thank you) on Twitter. It appears that Twitter is giving problems to some users at the moment. This is an alternate link to follow 22passi on it: http://yfrog.com/user/22passi/profile Who is that cute brunette: http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg861/scaled.php?tn=0server=861filename=lyiv.jpgxsize=640ysize=640 :-) T
[Vo]:Mats Lewan on Radio24 [ITA]
Italian only... http://www.radio24.ilsole24ore.com/player/player.php? filename=111013-mrkilowatt.mp3 mic
Re: [Vo]: Dennis Ritchie passes
A Genius. He was 70, indeed. long: http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/business-of-it/2011/10/13/dennis-ritchie-father-of-unix-and-c-dies-40094176/ short: http://goo.gl/BRUJc mic 2011/10/13 Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net: For all you fellow code monkeys out there... Dennis Ritchie died. The inventor of C, designer of a universal language syntax, and a major contributor to UNIX died this week at the age of 60. -m
Re: [Vo]:Alternative Oct 6 calorimetry method based on T2 and one measured mass flow point
Could putting the 3 reactors in the same box build a dangerous positive feedback in case one goes out of control? That's worrisome! Kaboom! That would make it to mainstream news! ;-) mic 2011/10/13 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com: All water heaters should have a pressure relief valve. Heck, your home water heater has one. T
[Vo]:Pictures/Videos on Focus.it
Some more pictures (by Massimo Brega - Focus/Focus.it) and videos put Raymond Zreick to take a look at. Videos too. short: http://goo.gl/MyIhH long: http://www.focus.it/fileflash/energia/fusioneFredda/ecat/anteprime/index.html IMHO I wish they had used one of those SD flash cards used for the cameras to record temperatures, instead of letting the poor Mats Lewan sample data as if it were a school boy by looking at the clock ;-) mic
Re: [Vo]:Pictures/Videos on Focus.it
this video would be interesting if it were in higher resolution short: http://goo.gl/SZStp long: http://www.focus.it/fileflash/energia/fusioneFredda/ecat/anteprime/original/MVI_0001.html mic 2011/10/14 Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com: I predict that this information will make people post more than 2 posts on the interwebs. 2011/10/14 Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com Some more pictures (by Massimo Brega - Focus/Focus.it) and videos put Raymond Zreick to take a look at. Videos too. short: http://goo.gl/MyIhH long: http://www.focus.it/fileflash/energia/fusioneFredda/ecat/anteprime/index.html IMHO I wish they had used one of those SD flash cards used for the cameras to record temperatures, instead of letting the poor Mats Lewan sample data as if it were a school boy by looking at the clock ;-) mic
[Vo]:Columbus blamed for Little Ice Age
By sailing to the New World, Christopher Columbus and the other explorers who followed may have set off a chain of events that cooled Europe’s climate for centuries. short: http://goo.gl/Gl82A long: http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/335168/title/Columbus_blamed_for_Little_Ice_Age mic
[Vo]:Rossi unveils some operative ranges of commercial product
I think this QA was worth reporting here. Could be an indirect answer to DGT claims. 450° C could make it more appealing for electricity production, but not everything is clear. Is it the max temperature differential or the max absolute temperature? mic --- Bill Nichols October 15th, 2011 at 12:12 PM Andrea… Since the E-Cat is a heat device, we know Carnot Efficiency essentially states greater efficiency is achieved with higher temperature differences. Four questions… 1.) Have you finalized the exact temperature range(s) you will use in the E-Cat commercially? 2.) Will the output (temperature) be different depending on the commercial application of the E-Cat? 3.) Can you provide this value or range of values for each commercial application? 4.) If not, when? Thanks and all the best, Kind Regards, Bill Nichols In your pursuit of options toward commercialization in various applications their are trade offs with other devices thermal specifications. Andrea Rossi October 15th, 2011 at 2:26 PM Dear Bill Nichols: 1- very wide, we will use diathermic oil in the primary, toallow a wide range of choices 2- yes 3- up to 450 Celsius so far Warm Regards, A.R.
Re: [Vo]:Why has Rossi to build a 1MW plant?
What about the BigBoy? How many E-tigers? 10 would suffice? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/UP_Big_Boy_4014.jpg/1280px-UP_Big_Boy_4014.jpg Wouldn't be nice to see one of those back in action with a NiH powered steam engine? mic 2011/10/18 Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt.stea...@gmail.com: For an Allison 250C20 400 horsepower turboshaft engine used in many helicopters and quite a few small airplanes ( now a derivative is called Rolls Royce RR300 ) I calculated that that 1 megawatt of heat was needed in the combustion chamber based on fuel use of 27 gallons per hour of kerosene for that engine, but the turbine inlet temperature is something close to 900° C. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_Model_250 Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:45 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Why has Rossi to build a 1MW plant? Susan Gipp susan.g...@gmail.com wrote: Because this is in his flamboyant nature to show someting HUGE, LOUD, POWERFUL, etc. etc. He's convinced that the more is big, the more demostrates it works. I agree. That seems likely. He has often said that smaller, kilowatt-scale reactors do not prove the machine can be used in industry. It is ironic, but I predict that if this technology succeeds, in the future nearly all generators and motors will be in the kilowatt-scale, generating electricity at home or powering an automobile or truck. There will be few applications for power sources of 1 MW or larger. Of course there will be some, such as blast furnaces, large factories, the hot water heater at a 2000-room hotel or aerospace engines. I think 747 aircraft engines produce 140 MW total. Not sure. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Google and the self-driving car
Jouni, In Italy they made this at a fraction of the price. Note that they mostly run on electric power some of which come from the pv panel on the roof. short: http://goo.gl/3cdfe long: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/7903932/Self-driving-robot-vans-start-epic-trip-from-Italy-to-China.html mic 2011/10/18 Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com: Nice new videos about how advanced automation is already. Here Google's car is trying avoid pedestrians and deers in the streets of California and elsewhere. There is lots of new material and details how these automated miracles are doing just fine without human's intervening. Implications are tremendous, because this means that it does take long, when we can fully automate at least buses, tramcars and taxicabs. Lots of people can then do something more productive than driving same bus line over and over again in the cities. The Evolution of Self-Driving Vehicles (1/3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7ub5Doyapk How Google's Self-Driving Car Works (2/3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXylqtEQ0tk Google's Self-Driving Golf Carts (3/3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOWhu_aa9kM Referring Spectrum article is here: How Google's Self-Driving Car Works http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/artificial-intelligence/how-google-self-driving-car-works –Jouni
Re: [Vo]:How to simulate the four-hour heat after death event in your kitchen
If I recall correctly, people at the test saw the reactor enclosing as big as 50cc not 2000cc... Maybe Raymond Zreick who was present can tell us more. Raymond are you there? ;-) mic 2011/10/18 Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com: Jed, how about this: Enrico Billi tells us that they weighed the E-Cat before and after, but not why it mysteriously gained a kilogram of weight. I can offer a plausible explanation. On the bottom of the E-Cat housing sits a relatively large volume enclosure, the reactor module, which we are told houses a small reactor core and large amounts of lead shielding. This volume was not opened so its contents were not revealed. In fact, neither were its dimensions given and must be inferred from a photograph and a few other measurements. It is safe to say that it is at least 10 liters and could be as much as 20 liters. Enrico says that there were no smells of anything burning, but one of the best candidates for a hidden fuel would be and alcohol like methanol or ethanol. These are very pure chemicals that burn to produce mostly steam and a small amount of carbon dioxide. Their combustion is odorless. Their combustion products could easily have been emitted through the reactor output hose and never be detected. CO2 is odorless. Of course the obvious question is how would it receive oxygen. The not so obvious answer is a relatively unknown, but actually ubiquitous technology called a chemical oxygen generator. Referred to in the industry as an oxygen candle, it consists of a mixture of a strong oxidizer and a powdered metal. When ignited at about 600C, it smolders slowly, giving off heat and copious amounts of excess oxygen. This is the same process that provides the emergency oxygen in commercial aircraft. Its used in mining, emergency operations, any place a very compact and stable form of oxygen is required. Its storage density, in the case of a Lithium Perchlorate formulation, equals that of liquid oxygen! About 2 liters of propanol, and 2 liters of a Li Perchlorate formulation could provide more enthalpy than was measured in the Oct. 6 demonstration. The propanol, which boils at 98C would have started to emit vapor just before the water came to a boil during its warm up phase. A resistance heater would ignite the oxy candle and the two gasses would meet at the top of the housing, which is the underside of the heat exchange fins. That surface would be plated with nickel or platinum to catalytically help combust the two gasses, just as occurs in an inexpensive camping heater. This would burn for several hours, at which time a covert signal would tell Rossi its time to shut down the reactor, hence his need to be present. During the time the reactor is allowed to cool, small openings would allow water to seep into the reactor module case and make up the weight of the lost fuel and oxidizer, possibly the same openings which vented the combustion products. This would not be an exact process, hence the requirement of weighing with inaccurate scales, and the need to overlook a 1 kilogram weight gain. This example accounts for all of the observations that were reported, as well as the electrical and plumbing connections that were seen. It explains the mysterious weight gain, the need for such a prolonged warm up phase, and the need to stop the demonstration after just 4 hours.
Re: [Vo]:How to simulate the four-hour heat after death event in your kitchen
See Mats hands at 7:46 that is the dimension of the reactor: short: http://goo.gl/T86ek long: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF8ifZZ_iVofeature=player_detailpage#t=460s mic 2011/10/18 Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com: Bob, excellent idea, this leaking could easily explain the excess heat gain. === Daniel, I think that skeptics are never assuming that there is deliberate hoax, but it is just a measurement errors. They have some sort of fixation to that that it is always measurement error and never deliberate hoax. Therefore they never have considered possibility of hidden power source. I think the reason why they are so eager to think it is measurement error, because they want to promote their-selves intellectually into higher level while showing that those who did the demonstration were just scientifically incompetent. However, 2 liters is not enough ethanol, because it does not consider heat losses and other measurement errors that may contribute up to 50% error and too low value to that what was measured. Total output could be something like 150 MJ ± 30 MJ. This means it could be as high as 180 MJ. I wonder if it is possible to burn thermite in controlled manner (it certainly burns in uncontrolled manner!). This should be easiest way to deliver hidden power source, because it does not require external oxygen, it's mass does not change while burning and thus it produces little exhaust fumes. However I am not sure about the odors and is it possible keep them in closed container, Thermite delivers 14 MJ per liter (4 MJ/kg) heat, so it could easily be fitted enough thermite into 20 liter container. –Jouni 2011/10/19 Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com: Jed, how about this: Enrico Billi tells us that they weighed the E-Cat before and after, but not why it mysteriously gained a kilogram of weight. I can offer a plausible explanation. On the bottom of the E-Cat housing sits a relatively large volume enclosure, the reactor module, which we are told houses a small reactor core and large amounts of lead shielding. This volume was not opened so its contents were not revealed. In fact, neither were its dimensions given and must be inferred from a photograph and a few other measurements. It is safe to say that it is at least 10 liters and could be as much as 20 liters. Enrico says that there were no smells of anything burning, but one of the best candidates for a hidden fuel would be and alcohol like methanol or ethanol. These are very pure chemicals that burn to produce mostly steam and a small amount of carbon dioxide. Their combustion is odorless. Their combustion products could easily have been emitted through the reactor output hose and never be detected. CO2 is odorless. Of course the obvious question is how would it receive oxygen. The not so obvious answer is a relatively unknown, but actually ubiquitous technology called a chemical oxygen generator. Referred to in the industry as an oxygen candle, it consists of a mixture of a strong oxidizer and a powdered metal. When ignited at about 600C, it smolders slowly, giving off heat and copious amounts of excess oxygen. This is the same process that provides the emergency oxygen in commercial aircraft. Its used in mining, emergency operations, any place a very compact and stable form of oxygen is required. Its storage density, in the case of a Lithium Perchlorate formulation, equals that of liquid oxygen! About 2 liters of propanol, and 2 liters of a Li Perchlorate formulation could provide more enthalpy than was measured in the Oct. 6 demonstration. The propanol, which boils at 98C would have started to emit vapor just before the water came to a boil during its warm up phase. A resistance heater would ignite the oxy candle and the two gasses would meet at the top of the housing, which is the underside of the heat exchange fins. That surface would be plated with nickel or platinum to catalytically help combust the two gasses, just as occurs in an inexpensive camping heater. This would burn for several hours, at which time a covert signal would tell Rossi its time to shut down the reactor, hence his need to be present. During the time the reactor is allowed to cool, small openings would allow water to seep into the reactor module case and make up the weight of the lost fuel and oxidizer, possibly the same openings which vented the combustion products. This would not be an exact process, hence the requirement of weighing with inaccurate scales, and the need to overlook a 1 kilogram weight gain. This example accounts for all of the observations that were reported, as well as the electrical and plumbing connections that were seen. It explains the mysterious weight gain, the need for such a prolonged warm up phase, and the need to stop the demonstration after just 4 hours.
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_Big_Boy I already posted a picture of the above as an example of a machine that had thermal power of at least 10MW. Those locomotives were made around 1940. They ran at 80mph max speed. All locomotives of the Big Boy model worked for at least 20 years, and retired only because of arrival of more competitive diesel electric engines. The numbers are impressive compared to Rossi's plant. Those beasts were able to dissipate huge amounts of heat, since their thermodynamic efficiency was below 10% most of the time. Yet they were reliable machines. Rossi will have no safety problems with steam, assuming that he followed those ancient engineering lessons. There is no reason for him to use hot water. I guess the idea is some kind of district heating plant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating) using steam. Then do the scale up to electrical power when eventually E-cat will be able to support it. mic 2011/10/19 David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com: The power requirements for a large truck are enormous. Maybe Rossi's 1 Megawatt steam generator is not as powerful as we are thinking as it would barely be capable of powering one of those trucks at full capacity(316 KW x 3). I see that the latest 1 Megawatt BIG CAT will need a slight size reduction to become a successful replacement for that truck engine. We have a long way to go. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Oct 19, 2011 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C? Robert Lynn wrote: Actually pretty easy, just parallel together 3-4 truck radiators or 10 car radiators (quite cheap) with standard cooling fans on them and pump water around with an open header tank. Wow. You are right. A large truck produces 425 hp, which is 316 kW. It takes a lot more than that in thermal power. I did not realize trucks are so powerful. I do not know efficient truck radiators are but that sounds like it would work. The water in the tank would end up getting very hot. That can be accounted for. The calorimetry is not as challenging as I though. I have no experience measuring such large amounts of heat, and no idea how it is done, but I'm sure there are many experts who know. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
Terry, you mean this? http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg53062.html mic 2011/10/19 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com: On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 11:51 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: This does not bode well from my POV. Granted it is conceivable that Rossi DOES have access to a fire hydrant's worth of flowing water, and running that much water through his prototype is what he intends to do - but I suspect not. Either I dreamed it or someone recently cross posted from Rossi's blog that he planned to use Therm oil, or something of the sort, instead of water in the primary. I probably make it up in my own mind. I'm sure he did not say Therminol. T
Re: [Vo]:S-C currents not DC?
RF cavity is used in particle accelerators. Those things are AC yet they dissipate very little, if I recall correctly a stationary RF in one of those lasts for months. They spend more energy for keeping things cool. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_Radio_Frequency mic 2011/10/19 Higgins Bob-CBH003 bob.higg...@motorolasolutions.com: Say that initially the superconductor was brought into its SC state not in the presence of magnetic fields. At that time there are nominally no supercurrents. As you bring the SC into the presence of a magnet a supercurrent must form that previously did not exist to prevent penetration of the magnetic field into the superconductor. This is not a DC supercurrent because it has not existed in steady state for all time. Initially there will be some loss in the supercurrent because there are components that are not DC. At least that’s my understanding. I asked a guy at CERN about this in how they bring up their strong supercurrent in their superconducting electromagnets. It is not a simple process. From: Wm. Scott Smith [mailto:scott...@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 4:28 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:S-C currents not DC? How are S-C currents not DC? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:quantum levitation From: fznidar...@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:19:59 -0400 thanks for the info -Original Message- From: Higgins Bob-CBH003 bob.higg...@motorolasolutions.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Oct 19, 2011 8:48 am Subject: RE: [Vo]:quantum levitation Note that superconductors have zero resistance only for DC. At all frequencies above DC, the resistance is finite and there is penetration. Consider also that true DC extends from time -infinity to +infinity as a constant. Moving the superconductor in a magnetic field does create resistance because the supercurrents are not DC. Bob Higgins -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 12:27 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:quantum levitation Is it posible the RF signal is warming the superconductor just above the critical temperature so that it drops? Harry On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 11:48 PM, fznidar...@aol.com wrote: A new understanding of flux pinning is the most important relation in 100 years. The magnet floats on the superconductor. Apply an RF field of 10 mega hertz to a small disk and the magnet drops. That what I saw, so what you say. Now we know how energy is released. Energy is pinned with the atom by the same mechanism, discontinuities. Where are the discontinuities in the atom, here there are below. http://academic.research.microsoft.com/Publication/10710753/the-elastic-limit-of-space-and-the-quantum-condition What can you predict knowing the observed release condition? Try the energy levels of the hydrogen atom, the intensity of spectral emission, the distribution of electrons in the atom, and the frequency and energy of the photon. see below http://academic.research.microsoft.com/Publication/1078/the-control-of-the-natural-forces If you are so bright, where is your peer reviewed paper. Here it is below. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1875389211006092 An understating of flux pinning and flux release has the potential to transform the study of physics and our society. That my story and I am sticking to it, no matter what Jones says. Frank Znidarsic -Original Message- From: fznidarsic fznidar...@aol.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Oct 18, 2011 7:20 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:quantum levitation All this talk of pinning is just fine, but all of this is nicely predicted by the basic laws of electrical induction and the zero resistivity offered by a superconductor, you would expect repulsion or attraction to occur. No it is not. This flux pinning thing is a big deal. The same mechanism accounts for the pinning of flux in a superconductor accounts for the energy levels of the atom. A solution that includes both provides for a classical foundation for quantum physics. Flux is pinned in the nucleus too. An understanding of the release mechanism provides for a new understanding of the cold fusion reaction. Flux is pinned at discontinuities. It is shook free by a vibration at a dimensional frequency of 1,094,000 meters/second. Thats it. I did the experiment with the superconductor, Horace now has it. Frank Znidarsic
[Vo]:ecat.com video interview with Stremmenos
http://ecat.com or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NuNNicWV6kfeature=player_embedded mic p.s. www.e-cat.com now goes to google/green is this a joke or what???
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi's 1MW demo supposed to output steam, or just hot water under 100 C?
http://www.youreporter.it/foto_Incendio_alla_centrale_elettrica_foto_dei_pompieri_1_1 That electric transformer contained diathermic oil! I know it is not easy to handle as it can burn as any mineral oil. mic 2011/10/20 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com: On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: Terry, you mean this? http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg53062.html Yes! He said he would use diathermic oil. This seems to be common in Italy with several patents held by Italian inventors. Here's a brief description: http://www.feasrl.com/eng/dettaglio_prodotto.asp?id=5 From what I can surmise with a limited review, this would seem to be ideal for the Rossi Reactor. Thanks, Michele. T
Re: [Vo]:diathermic oil for heat transfer
looking at heat transfer fluids. Glycole (http://goo.gl/haL10) Note! The specific heat capacity of ethylene glycol based water solutions are less than the specific heat capacity of clean water. For a heat transfer system with ethylene glycol the circulated volume must be increased compared to a system with clean water. In a 50% solution with operational temperatures above 36 oF the specific heat capacity is decreased with approximately 20%. The reduced heat capacity must be compensated by circulating more fluid. 2011/10/20 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: lately my brain has been crashing, so I don't read all the messages. At least you have one. ;-) T
Re: [Vo]:diathermic oil for heat transfer
Tom, Thank you. I think the amessage was for all vorticians not just me! So I reply back to the list. I was looking for a comparison of heat transfer fluids specs, do you know if there is any? What is the Max operating temperature in particular? I understand that if you want to keep liquid phase with glycole you need high pressures at temperature above 200°. Some oil seem to have a much higher boiling point. mic Il giorno 21/ott/2011 01:02, Tom Andersen tom.ander...@gmail.com ha scritto: The heat capacity is 1/2 that of water for these materials, but they can run hotter, so for instance oil at 500C is taking away about 3 times the heat of water at 99C. --Tom
Re: [Vo]:Steam engines
Good for the eye and for the health: http://goo.gl/L56Hg mic Power companies will fade away and all those ugly high-tension lines will dissappear :-) . Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 7:18 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Steam engines On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 11:36 PM, ecat builder ecatbuil...@gmail.com wrote: Hoyt: Are you sure the electric company will want unsynchronized AC? I predict that home generators will produce direct current, not AC. DC is safer because it is less prone to cause electrocution. Electric power companies will not purchase this power for two reasons: 1. They will all go out of business. 2. Electric power will be worthless. Selling it would be like trying to rent out 10 MB of hard disk space. This is not an imaginary example. In the 1970s time-share companies rented out hard disk space in increments as small as this. Nowadays, 10 MB of hard disk space can be purchased for about one-tenth of a penny, I think. Unless I dropped one or two orders of magnitude. How will the governments keep the electric companies in business? Why would governments do this? This would be like trying to keep the vacuum tube computer industry in business. I expect there will be some initial attempts to keep power companies, and perhaps even oil companies, in business, but everyone will soon see that this is a futile waste of money. - Jed
[Vo]:Lego patent expired
Childhood (and fatherhood) memories... http://boingboing.net/2011/10/21/expired-patent-of-the-day-lego.html Now anyone can make those bricks like the real stuff not just cheap imitations! ;-) mic
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's Customer is not who is?
Large companies have many different subsidiaries. It could be that they had contacts with the industrial group X without knowing that the one among the subsidiaries interested in the e-cat is working for military applications. In US there are a number of those. US because Rossi says that is where the customer is from, but would not change it were another country. If that is the case a major explosion with fatalities could be satisfactory as well as a smooth run. Safety standards for power generation are not the priority in that field, see for instance those ships and submarines fission reactors inside. Also whatever would be the result of the test we could well say goodbye to the whole story for a long, long time. Bye bye water desalinization, CO2 reduction, quasi-free energy, oil free economy and all the dreams attached to the e-cat... sorry only for serious and useful things as warfare. mic 2011/10/22 Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com: Maybe there was an acquisition since the arrangement was made. Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 22, 2011, at 12:29, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: If somebody can understand this. please explain: Mattia Battistich October 22nd, 2011 at 9:59 AM Dear Dr. Rossi, 1) A few weeks ago I remember reading a quote on you saying that by mid October, a week before the test scheduled for the 28th, you would have revealed the location where your first 1MW plant customer comes from, and that by then it would clear to everybody who it was. Considering less then a week separates us from the 28th are you still inclined to do so? Andrea Rossi October 22nd, 2011 at 10:38 AM Dear Mattia Battistich: 1- USA; is an Entity that wants not to be disclosed, for its particularity; this does not depend from me, the Customer is not the same we supposed would have been. As Eraclitus wrote “…all changes, and the water flowing along a river is never the same…” I awfully regret interrupting my philosophy studies many years ago. I know reallly a lot of Companies, but no one with the above characteristics. -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
[Vo]:Rossi writes on the blog
Amazing! Rossi even finds time to write on his blog! http://goo.gl/ahMEA Andrea Rossi October 28th, 2011 at 10:37 AM FIRST INFORMATION REGARDING THE 1 MW PLANT TEST: WE SARTED REGULARLY THE TEST THIS MORNING . EVERYTHING IS GOING WELL SO FAR. THE 1 MW E-CAT IS WORKING IN SELF SUSTAINING. TONIGHT I WILL PUBLISH THE NON SECRET REPORT THAT THE CUSTOMER WILL RELEASE. WARM REGARDS, I HAVE TO RETURN TO THE PLANT. SORRY, I CANNOT ANSWER TO THE MANY COMMENTS I AM RECEIVING. I WILL PUBLISH THEM PROBABLY I WILL NEVER FIND THE TIME TO ANSWER. WARMEST REGARDS TO ALL, ANDREA ROSSI
Re: [Vo]:Photos of test report and a spreadsheet
Take a close look at the dashed words at page 3. You can find the 2 parties involved. One the second one is readable and easy guessing : Leonardocorp. mic Il giorno 29/ott/2011 01:12, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com ha scritto: At 03:48 PM 10/28/2011, Bruno Santos wrote: This report is meaningless. We need the raw data from a reliable source outside Rossi's circle of trust. At Daniele Passerini's blog comments someone said that the company is a food producer (!??!). Weird. Why weird? They use LOTS and LOTS of steam and/or water.
Re: [Vo]:Forget John Galt, who is Domenico Fioravanti?
That register is incomplete cannot be trusted. It is stated on the search page and its the truth: i put many names of registered engineers I know and no one shows. I trust my friends much more than that database. Si precisa pertanto che il presente elenco non comprende necessariamente tutti gli ingegneri iscritti agli Ordini i.e. It should be noted, therefore, that this list does not necessarily include all engineers registered to Orders Also if the customer does not need a certification of the plant with legal value, for instance because Fioravanti works for the customer, there is no need for him to be on the register to do an internal report. An independent certification is usually paid by the producer (ie leonardo corp). Fioravanti was on behalf of the customer not on Rossi's, at least that was what was said. mic 2011/10/29 Bruno Santos besantos1...@gmail.com: It seems that the information about registered professional italian engineers can be found here: http://www.tuttoingegnere.it/web/ITA/Registro-U/ricerca.asp_cvt.asp I do not speak italian, but I can read a little. It seems to me that not every italian engineer is registered there, it depends wheter the regional engineer offices makes the information available. I have searched for FIORAVANTI, and there is no Domenico Fioravanti registered. But he could be registered to one of those regional offices that do not provide the information. I also searched for Andrea Rossi. There are several registered engineers called Andrea Rossi. 2011/10/29 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: I will make a people search for the US. He appears to be Italian. Why would he be registered in the U.S? I can look in a Japanese registry but he probably isn't there either. But very probably not the real name. What on earth makes you think that is not his real name?!? This is not a James Bond movie. Why would he use a fake name? I am sure that signing a technical document with a fake name, or claiming you are a registered engineer with a fake name, would also be serious violations of the laws. People do not seem to appreciate this, but as Samuel Florman points out, professional engineers are very careful not to violate laws and regulations. Not because they are highly moral people. Because they will lose their license if they are caught, and then they will have no way to make a living. They would throw away all that training and years of experience. I expect they would have difficulty finding any kind of job. A middle aged guy like Fioravanti would spend the rest of his working life sweeping floors or flipping burgers. Rossi would have to pay a huge bribe to get him to do that. A university scientist could fake a report more easily. He would just say he made a mistake. People don't read scientific papers anyway. I read 'em, and I find many real mistakes. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Some calculations, discussion and accurate temperature graph
Jed, I am among. I simply meant to say that Fioravanti can have a legal degree in engineering, but he does not need to be registered among the Ordine degli Ingegneri to make a report for his employer. On the other hand if he is a consultant then it is very likely that he will (or has by now) make a full report with legal value (i.e. equivalent to a contract with related acquittance) he needs to have the registration id from the Ordine. In any case many with engineering diploma do not care to register unless strictly required, because: 1) you need to pass an exam. 2) you need to pay each year. But are called Ingegnere even if the correct term would be Dottore in Ingegneria so reading Ing. in front of a name does not imply being registered to the Ordine degli Ingegneri unless the document is a public contract. HTH mic Michele Comitini pointed out that Fioravanti does not have to be registered: Also if the customer does not need a certification of the plant with legal value, for instance because Fioravanti works for the customer, there is no need for him to be on the register to do an internal report. I am not sure what you mean. Perhaps you mean that Fioravanti would not need a license as long as he is not working to install or certify a boiler for a customer. I assume he is licensed because he is referred to in the document as Engineer and Ing. I assume that is similar to the English P.E. (professional engineer) which people append to the name. That means you have a license. It is like MD (medical doctor). You would get into legal trouble if you say you are PE or MD but you are not. Assuming he is a PE then he would get into trouble for signing a fraudulent report under any circumstances, for any purpose, whether it is internal for his own company or for a customer. In the U.S. he would get in trouble. Just because you are a PE, I do not know if that means you are registered anywhere, in Italy. I do not know how that works. I believe all U.S. PE and MDs are registered, and probably they are all on line these days. Retired MDs are not. Their license to practice is lapsed. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Some calculations, discussion and accurate temperature graph
Jed, sorry I deleted a piece of the first sentence... I wrote: I am among those that don't have a clear writing as yours... mic 2011/10/30 Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com: Jed, I am among. I simply meant to say that Fioravanti can have a legal degree in engineering, but he does not need to be registered among the Ordine degli Ingegneri to make a report for his employer. On the other hand if he is a consultant then it is very likely that he will (or has by now) make a full report with legal value (i.e. equivalent to a contract with related acquittance) he needs to have the registration id from the Ordine. In any case many with engineering diploma do not care to register unless strictly required, because: 1) you need to pass an exam. 2) you need to pay each year. But are called Ingegnere even if the correct term would be Dottore in Ingegneria so reading Ing. in front of a name does not imply being registered to the Ordine degli Ingegneri unless the document is a public contract. HTH mic Michele Comitini pointed out that Fioravanti does not have to be registered: Also if the customer does not need a certification of the plant with legal value, for instance because Fioravanti works for the customer, there is no need for him to be on the register to do an internal report. I am not sure what you mean. Perhaps you mean that Fioravanti would not need a license as long as he is not working to install or certify a boiler for a customer. I assume he is licensed because he is referred to in the document as Engineer and Ing. I assume that is similar to the English P.E. (professional engineer) which people append to the name. That means you have a license. It is like MD (medical doctor). You would get into legal trouble if you say you are PE or MD but you are not. Assuming he is a PE then he would get into trouble for signing a fraudulent report under any circumstances, for any purpose, whether it is internal for his own company or for a customer. In the U.S. he would get in trouble. Just because you are a PE, I do not know if that means you are registered anywhere, in Italy. I do not know how that works. I believe all U.S. PE and MDs are registered, and probably they are all on line these days. Retired MDs are not. Their license to practice is lapsed. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:AP Journalist Response - Supression Of eCat Coverage
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saint_(film) But The Rossi Legacy is much much better! ;-) mic mic Il giorno 01/nov/2011 12:32, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com ha scritto: 2011/11/1 Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com: Cold fusion is rare even in science fiction. By the way, can anyone recommend (preferably good) near future science fiction novels that have cold fusion device as a plot generator? Is there even any?! –Jouni
[Vo]:Nuclear fission starting at Fukushima's reactor #2
Let's not forget about Japan. The beast is far from being tamed. I do not know if the following is true, I hope not: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-11-02/tepco-detects-nuclear-fission-at-fukushima-station.html mic
Re: [Vo]:Mats Lewan on Steam Quality
I would not worry too much about the level of water in the boiler. See this classical example of dobule retroactive feedback for managing water level ;-) . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flush_toilet mic 2011/11/2 Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com: On 11-11-01 09:36 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote: Since the pump rate was constant, that means the power level was constant with a precision of +/- 0.09 percent. (That's 9/100 of 1 percent.) This, in a process which is said to be hard to start and hard to control. Either that, or the water level fluctuated. That seems more likely to me. When it starts to rise, you increase the reaction. When it falls too far, you throttle it. This is, of course, all old stuff being reiterated here. In the test from last spring, the electrical power level was (supposedly) fixed; if it wasn't then the calorimetry was nonsense. Consequently it's not at all clear how the reaction rate was being controlled; the system, as described, was apparently running open-loop. (Some people have imagined interesting feedback controls in the blue box but no such thing has ever been claimed by anyone who actually knew.) In the 1MW test it's less clear cut, but one thing stands out: There's no obvious indicator that Rossi could have used to tell him when it was time to turn it up or down. Output temp would lag too much to be used as the control variable, and the result would have been a hunting temperature which wandered all over the place, certainly not an essentially constant temperature which was indicative of a power level which was nailed to better than 1/2 %. It would be nice to imagine a sight glass, and Rossi's hand on the throttle with his eye glued to the glass, but it's not clear such exists anywhere except in our imaginations. Whatever, all such concerns have been dismissed in earlier posts, so there's not a lot of point in arguing it further.
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi: NO MORE TESTS and other stuff (revisited)
2011/11/9 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: A small businessman, with a private corporation, who has no grasp of how to deal with a potentially gigantic worldwide market worth ~$1 trillion a year. As someone here remarked, he is treating this like some guy who has come up with an improved formula for automobile window washing fluid, and he's manufacturing cases of the stuff and stockpiling them in a warehouse, hoping to ratchet up to a few million dollars in sales. There would be 2 major drivers: 1) Added value i.e. earnings for e-cat producers. 2) Energy savings for customers. (for a market to exist both roles, buyer and seller, shall see an advantage in trading) Point 2) is certain as long as the e-cat keeps the promises. It gives to a business selling CF devices a powerful lever to attack the market, but to take advantage the business must be the only one. And most interesting such saving *lowers* the global GDP i.e. less money changing hands, the energy market, in monetary terms, will become smaller indeed, much smaller than today. About the other point. Suppose no patent will ever be granted. Once the secret would have been known or similar results can obtained with a know process 1) would be true only if producing equipment that exploits CF were very difficult to design and build. Requiring the highest degree of specialization and unparalleled engineering capabilities. Imagine that that is not the case: anyone can create a factory where millions of reactors are assembled. That would imply really low profitability on each sold piece. Those things last more years than a car so there is little gain in replacement. Why would any one buy Rossi's and not Mr Chen's? What is the conclusion? Rossi is not aggressive to the market because the device will reproduced easily and will be cheap to make. He is trying to build a slowly, but solid growing, business. It also means that he expects that his company would have a technological monopoly only for a few years and that he does care more about profitability than market share, i.e. same or slowly growing sales numbers in an expanding market with lots of competitors. Of course if patent were to be granted Rossi's strategy could be far more aggressive. mic
Re: [Vo]:Food for thought?
Jones, Is this paving the way to a new kind of doping in sports? To be seen at next Olympic Games! ;-) mic Il giorno 10/nov/2011 17:54, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net ha scritto: Need a break from Rossi madness? Slow slide into crazy? Do you know about the Mental illness happy hour? Well those guys have learned that co-mingling wry humor (or rye humor, if after 5) with pathological science is a good place to start. To that end, here is an unauthorized episode. Start with a provocative science story, not quite pathological yet - and take it from there... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45230351/ns/technology_and_science-science/ The brain requires about 22 times as much energy to run as the equivalent in muscle tissue. The energy required ... comes from the food we eat. Human brains are three times larger than our closest living relative, the chimpanzee... but the two species have the same metabolic rateThis extra energy must be coming from somewhere. The so-called Expensive Tissue Hypothesis (ETH) of the authors tries to answer that, but of course, you will not find LENR or any alternative energy hypothesis considered. After all, they have to protect their phongna-balogna jobs. (as recipients of liberal largess) However, moving further down the slow slide into pathology -- if one suspects that some version of f/H (fractional hydrogen) could be partially involved (in human evolution) to boost the energy level of a standard diet - whether it involves the Mills' hydrino or an alternative hypothesis, then there is a place to search for answers. Look at the role of chemicals in the brain which have been associated with gainful systems in alternative energy, and cross-compare that with evolution and diet of proto-humans. Kind of a positive feedback loop. In this category, a prime suspect would be potassium. And the best fit in the periodic table for a Mills catalyst that does not require a plasma or 3 body reaction, is molybdenum. Molybdenum cofactor is an enzyme intimately associated with neurochemistry. Can we connect the dots? Not really but, speaking of evolution in the context of splitting-off from the line of the aforementioned chimpanzee ... with the realization that a top dietary source of potassium is bananas. Bananas made apes what they are today, so to speak, but there were more choices on the horizon. Voila... we now have our pathological rationale for the 'out of Africa' migrations. They were not an effect of advancing mentality - but instead were partially the cause (dietary cause). A search for more and better f/H catalysts. Say James, when is the BBC going to revive Connections? Anyway, it could be coincidental but hominids really started to evolve rapidly, especially in the cultural context, when they learned about the other prime potassium sources: figs, dates, raisins, apricots, melons and wine. Generally these source thrive further north than ape country. Matter-of-fact: figs, dates, raisins, apricots, melons and wine ... sounds coincidentally like happy hour at a mid-Eastern restaurant, no? Is it five yet? Jones
Re: [Vo]:National Instruments signs to do E-Cat controls
Rossi can write Ni powdered and NI powered whichever he prefers. ;-) Now seriously unless the statement below is fake, which is unlikely, the article must be taken for what it says: NI and Rossi have made a deal. On November 10, 2011 4:39 PM [MST], regarding the above story, I received the following from Trisha McDonell | Corporate PR Manager | National Instruments. Subject: Re: final Re: contact info for E-Cat / NI contract Thank you Sterling for allowing us to review. We approve the text, especially the National Instruments portion of the story that include Stefano's quote and information. Best regards Trisha mic 2011/11/11 peter.heck...@arcor.de: http://www.ni.com/legal/trademarks/ Rules for usage, excerpt: # Do not display any NI Trademark more prominently than your own trademarks, service marks or trade names. This means, if Rossi has no trademark, he cannot use the NI Trademark. He must get an own Trademark first. - Original Nachricht Von: Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 11.11.2011 00:53 Betreff: [Vo]:National Instruments signs to do E-Cat controls Via PESN: Today, Leonardo Corporation, led by Andrea Rossi, inventor and developer of the one-megawatt cold fusion E-Cat plant, signed an agreement with National Instruments (NI), to have them make all the instrumentation for the E-Cat plants, which began commercial sales on October 28, following the successful test in Bologna, Italy of the first 1 MW heat plant to the first customer. More details on PESN: http://pesn.com/2011/11/10/9601953_National_Instruments_signs_to_do_E-Cat_co ntrols/ Great news! S.A.
Re: [Vo]:National Instruments signs to do E-Cat controls
About N.I. involment this is what Daniele reports on 22passi: Questa primavera National Instrument aveva chiesto silenzio sulla sua disponibilità a sponsorizzare l'E-Cat di Rossi, ritenendo ancora troppo controversa la sua invenzione. Ergo, se National Instrument è uscita allo scoperto adesso, significa che anche loro hanno escluso l'ipotesi (campata in aria) della bufala. Last spring National Instruments asked for not reporting their availability to sponsor Rossi's E-cat, considering his [Rossi's] invention too controversial. Ergo, if Nat. Instr. came out now, it means that they too excluded the (too far fetched) hoax hypothesis. 2011/11/11 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: This means, if Rossi has no trademark, he cannot use the NI Trademark. He must get an own Trademark first. That is easy. Anyone can get a trademark for around $300 in the U.S. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi E-Cat web site up
Auch! sorry Akira you already noticed! 2011/11/12 Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com: Look down on the pages: Page by Hank Mills and Sterling Allan, PES Network, Inc. Just like PESN: an old fashioned, '90s looking site... mic 2011/11/12 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com: Major kewl!
Re: [Vo]:Rossi E-Cat web site up
Digging in to the html code, the headers tell it all about quality... made with FrontPage software that was discontinued in 2003! head meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=windows-1252 meta name=GENERATOR content=Microsoft FrontPage 4.0 meta name=ProgId content=FrontPage.Editor.Document titleUpcoming Events/title meta name=Microsoft Border content=tlrb, default Almost validates as HTML 3.2, just one error, see link below http://goo.gl/14JP2 mic 2011/11/12 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com: On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Major kewl! Yah. Looks like a camp stove.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi E-Cat web site up
Jed, Il giorno 12/nov/2011 02:26, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com ha scritto: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: Digging in to the html code, the headers tell it all about quality... made with FrontPage software that was discontinued in 2003! I do not see why that matters. For LENR-CANR.org I use Borland Delphi 4, discontinued in 1999. I sometimes tweak the HTML *by hand*. With Programmers Text Editor. For shame! You got a problem with retro-looking HTML? You got a problem with old programs, and old programmers? I was going to complain that these screens look too modern. Too busy. I like Google's main page. Here you are making wrong guesses on my ideas about: 1. Software development tools. 2. Quality on the Web. The following is a reply to the above erroneous assumptions on your side. 1. Software development tools I have nothing against old programmers (I am one of those by now) or old (good) programs. As a matter of fact if i often have to select programmers for projects I am directly involved in. I always ask what kind of tools they use. One key point is that they understand the difference between an IDE and a text editor, between handmade code and automated code generation. I am deeply skeptic about automatic code generation with the aid of a graphical tools, myself being a die hard command line guy. I often say that using a GUI vs CLI is like cavemen paintings vs the greatest invention of mankind ever: writing. Of course it is an exaggeration, but if you look at the question in term of expressiveness, exactness and reproducibility nothing can beat writing. The death of things like UML (Unified Modeling Language) tell a lot about that. Dealing with real problems using many programming languages creates oftentimes repeated patterns. You have three practical approaches that do not require repeating the typing : 1. Use a GUI that generates the boiler plate code for you. 2. Have a tool to automatically generate the code. 3. Choose a language that comes with the pattern solved. Me being a lazy kind of person that likes typing short, expressive and clean code, I naturally prefer option 3. But the others can do equally good with patterns. A pattern in programming resembles the notion of a concept. Think to the concept of aeroplane/airplane we can do with analogy to the above: 1. A drawing or a picture: http://carseatblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/airplane.jpg 2. Have a *code* *preprocessor* writing A powered fixed-wing aircraft that is propelled forward by thrust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust from a jet engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_engine or propeller http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller_%28aircraft%29...** where needed. 3. Write the instruction airplane. Suppose that those tool developed by businesses that all ended just before the advent of the 20th century and now is 1910. Since at the time they where written there was some confusion about airplanes , the definitions are slightly outdated (wrong for 1910( and you generate code without knowing it. Well in your code the airplane will always *crash*! This is what happens with FrontPage. Just to be clear Frontpage falls under type 1 Your situation is *completely* different. You do not use any automated code generation. You have to write by *hand* A powered fixed-wing aircraft that is propelled forward by thrusthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrustfrom a jet engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_engine or propellerhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller_%28aircraft%29... ** every where you need to express an airplane. That is what you do with delphi and it is perfectly fair. If you keep yourself updated your code at the time of writing is *correct*. You are not automating anything and *you could use any other text editor* to get the same result. Just to give you an idea of how much I am against old stuff look at what I use to do my daily work: - Unix or Linux - Emacs - LaTex Take a look around to find how young are those toys (the youngest is Linux: 20 years old, but not is good old cousin Unix). But there is a main difference with FrontPage: *they are and they will** constantly updated and improved*. I am not going to explain why and how because this is getting too long already, I just state that it is all related to the fact that it is *free software* i.e. driven by the user (person or business) need and not by sale needs. Dead proprietary development software is good if you are the only one that is going to use the resulting program. On the contrary on the Internet it is good policy to adhere to standards, because anyone could come to visit you. Think of someone speaking Shakespeare English on a international business confcall, they other mute him off. Also keep an eye on possible malicious attacks must be kept. That is why keeping the code up to date is important. 2. Quality on the Web *De gustibus non disputandum* I would like you to explain how
[Vo]:Order Form
Available on-line: http://www.leonardo-ecat.com/fp/Products/1MW_Plant/1MW_Offer_Template.docx mic
Re: [Vo]:Rossi E-Cat web site up
Il giorno 13/nov/2011 02:23, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com ha scritto: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: A. Final note There is a big difference between your efforts on http://www.lenr-canr.org and the e-cat site. The first is a service to the community, the other is for selling goods. What is wrong with selling goods?!? Stop it there! Why do you jump to the wrong conclusion?? I do manage a business so I am a pure capitalist I risk every day of my life my own capital. I bet on my business. Do you?! I do things for free too: it is an indirect way of supporting the business by letting others try the quality of work and to expand the network. Read well what I write. Free is not the same as gratis. Free is about freedom, like in freedom of speech. About being fair in business ad give credit to others' ideas when credit is due. And yes I do sell free things, customers can do whatever they please with them, with one caveat, they must respect others freedom when they sell derived works. Did I say I do not like Rossi jobs and is not his way of doing business as a whole? indeed I think he is very good at it in many aspects. Not the website. That website will make him loose potential customers. Back to the point... The difference between a free informative website and a business website is about selling. On a business if you damage potential sales, you are doing a poor job with the website. Rossi's site does not look like, and it is not a business site, it is very amateurish at presentation and at technical level, it does not speak business language, not that of the $1M or more type of potential customer. I hope someone tells this to Rossi ASAP. mic Do you have some ivory-tower objection to capitalism? You don't like to see people making a living? Do you think Rossi is obligated to give away secrets worth a trillion dollars? If you think people should give away their property, please send all of your money to me, at 1954 Airport Road. I cannot understand why people criticize Rossi for keeping this secret when it is the U.S. Patent Office that refuses to grant patents for cold fusion I cannot understand this attitude that Rossi should do whatever you say, or Mary Yugo says, even though what you want him to do would ruin his business. I wish he would do as I say only because I think it would be bring him more money, and it would bring cold fusion to the world more quickly. This is his discovery, his intellectual property, and his business. He can run his business any way he wants to. He has no obligation to tell us anything, or to do any public tests. If he wants to use obsolete web page software, that is his decision. We can criticize these decisions, or ridicule them, but people here act as if Rossi has a moral obligation to follow our orders. He does not. No businessman does. Thank goodness for that. Capitalism would not work if they did. Without capitalism we would all live in poverty. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Swedish Radio : advertising a scam ?
2011/11/13 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com: The issue isn't only or even mainly the instruments except for Bianchini using some silly Testo HVAC meter to pronounce the steam dry when the meter couldn't do that. Bianchini measured radioactivity IIRC. mic
[Vo]:Boiling at 0g
Quite different from what we are used to: http://science.nasa.gov/media/medialibrary/2001/09/03/ast07sep_2_resources/bubble0g.mpg Full article here: http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast07sep_2/ mic
Re: [Vo]:a modest proposal
Joshua, What you say can be proved easily. Just offer some money to Rossi in different amounts, at different times and from different identities. See what happens, and *then* of course report here... mic 2011/11/15 Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com: On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote: He's shifty and does not inspire confidence. Oh, but he does. Several people have written to him offering him money. That clearly indicates he has their confidence. And even among those who don't publicly offer money, the obvious Rossi-worship suggests he inspires a lot of confidence. He's not taking all the money he's being offered. From my extensive experience watching scams in the movies, that's the oldest trick in the book. The key part is that he's not taking *all* the money he's offered. He could be accepting money confidentially; you know to give his investors the feeling of importance, because they have some kind of exclusive access. Or he could be waiting for the offers to increase before he starts accepting. If it is a scam, it doesn't seem like he would be a reliable source of information on what he is and is not accepting.
Re: [Vo]:a modest proposal
Much simpler to read Krivit's latest comment on his latest post. It seems pretty clear Rossi's after someone's money. Anyway, I don't have the capital to do the experiment you propose, even if I wanted to. Everyone in civilized countries is after someone's money, don't you get paid for a work that gives you a living? To prove the concept I think you do not have to give money you can privately show interest in giving money to support Rossi's endeavors. Interest in buying products is different, you cannot prove scam until you prove it does not what it is advertised on the box and when asked full refund you don't get it. mic
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's interview with Tom and Doug
Maybe he is ambidextrous, not to rare as condition. By direct experience I can say that unless using some tricks, like a wearing a watch or a ring and looking at it, explaining simple right/left related action in words becomes complex. Remembering is even worse unless the memory holds the position of the object used for reference. Kinda of a democratic government: while it has advantages, sometimes the decision process is convoluted and lengthy and error prone. This is related only to rationalization of proprioception, instinctive action is not affected. mic 2011/11/23 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Marcello Vitale wrote: I currently have a broken meniscus in one knee. It hurts. I still have to touch it and think about it before being able to say whether it's the left or the right knee. That is a common problem. Another problem is determining left and right in another frame of reference. That is to say when you are looking at another person it can be difficult to say which is his right hand. Or when you are trying to unscrew something from an odd angle. For example when you look down at a sink and you try to unscrew the cap at the end of the faucet that holds the screen. From your frame of reference it has to be unscrewed clockwise. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Sven Kullader's cold fusion talk is upon us.
Is anyone going? no one? Seems like there has been a lecture on 11/9 and maybe another on 11/16, but I cannot find a reference to the latter. http://www.tekniskaforeningeniuppsala.com/program.htm mic 2011/11/22 Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com: Will anyone go there? It's today (11/23). -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Speaking of Italian Eccentrics
Oh my! Been living close to the place (5km range). That is a sect, to join you must give them all of your properties, they use their own currency. Any kind of earnings from go to the sect. Their respect for natural environment is a tale... And the worst thing about it is that it is very ... kitsch. mic 2011/11/23 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-495538/Eighth-wonder-world-The-stunn ing-temples-secretly-carved-ground-paranormal-eccentric.html
Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston
I wish Peter Hagelstein replied: That's OK, Mr Rossi, fine! No more public test! Let me put it this way: would you let me test before buy as you advertise?!. That would have put AR in the corner, no escape. Is MIT afraid of being fouled ending up paying $2M for a scam? If it works those $2M would have been a great investment. Business 101... All of this seems a drama where actors keep forgetting the script! mic 2011/11/24 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com: It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat. Rossi realizes it and is pumping (intended) out as many as he can hoping to make his nest egg. If all is real, Rossi will not get a patent here, but he could likely make a few million before the pipeline gets clogged with competitors. I understand what he is doing and recommend he continues. If all this is really real, the window for AR will close in a few months. T
[Vo]:AGILE RESOLVES THE MYSTERY OF THE ORIGIN OF COSMIC RAYS
A break from the e-cat vortex... this is a very important discovery. Downloadable pdf of press release: http://goo.gl/HgFdf html version: http://goo.gl/RRUwW mic
Re: [Vo]:AGILE RESOLVES THE MYSTERY OF THE ORIGIN OF COSMIC RAYS
Seems Google lost the html version of the document... you can find it going to the agile site: http://agile.rm.iasf.cnr.it/ mic 2011/11/24 Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com: A break from the e-cat vortex... this is a very important discovery. Downloadable pdf of press release: http://goo.gl/HgFdf html version: http://goo.gl/RRUwW mic
Re: [Vo]:AGILE RESOLVES THE MYSTERY OF THE ORIGIN OF COSMIC RAYS
2011/11/24 Alan Fletcher a...@well.com: You send us an ITALIAN paper of data from an ITALIAN satellite? I think it's FAKE! This one is a FAKED FAKE so it's REAL! :-) (Happy thanksgiving , by the way . ) Of course! Thanks you! And happy thanks giving to all! mic
Re: [Vo]: ECAT Triggered by Cosmic Rays?
The biggest source of contemporary cosmic rays has been just identified: http://agile.rm.iasf.cnr.it/doc/AGILE_cosmic-rays_W44_press-release__07b_English.pdf This means that cosmic ray flux is very likely to subject to fluctuations on the long period (comparable to star life), and could come close to zero. Earth has been subject to cosmic rains of different kind during its existence. This kind of trigger would make Ni reactions even more aleatory. But the most important objection is that it could not be used in deep sea (submarines) or little inside Earth crust (mining). mic 2011/12/5 James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com: This morning, I ran across a truly classy cold fusion joke appearing in Charles Beaudette's book Excess Heat in that book's appendix: The Internet Noise Level written as a letter to Dr. I. M. Noteworthy. I was delighted to see Beaudette's association of the word noise with internet regarding cold fusion, as I had just recently been able to silence a particular noise box here to achieve a remarkable rise in the S/N ratio. Its too bad there aren't more I refuse to look through your telescope, Mr. Galileo jokes. It does not bode well for the future of classy jokes such as Beaudette's. On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Andrea Selva andreagiuseppe.se...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry Jed. I apologize for the quite rude joke. Couldn't resist. By the way I missed this McKubre test in US. Can you tell me more and provide some pointers ? Thanks Andrea -- Forwarded message -- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Date: 2011/12/5 Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT Triggered by Cosmic Rays? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Andrea Selva andreagiuseppe.se...@gmail.com wrote: Could this theory explain why e-cat works only at exactly 44.50N, 11.40E ( Via dell'Elettricista, 6 40138 Bologna Italy) and A.R. refuses to run tests in different location ? I realize this is a joke, but to give a serious answer, the Ampenergo test shown by McKubre was in the U.S., and there have been various successful tests elsewhere, as well as failed tests in Bologna, such as the NASA one. Jokes like this are a little tiresome. Several people have looked for co-incidence between cosmic rays and cold fusion cell performance. Dave Nagel gave a paper about that, using data from Mizuno and others. There does seem to be some slight correlation. - Jed
[Vo]:Article - Quantum Entanglement Allows Diamonds to Communicate
http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news-Quantum-Entanglement-Allows-Diamonds-to-Communicate-120511.aspx?xmlmenuid=51 Researchers have managed to get one small diamond to communicate with another small diamond utilizing quantum entanglement, one of the more mind-blowing features of quantum physics.
Re: [Vo]:Article - Quantum Entanglement Allows Diamonds to Communicate
Peter, You simply need lots of coupled diamonds. And remember: diamonds are a girl's best friends! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PluRW3_FEt0 mic 2011/12/8 peter.heck...@arcor.de: - Original Nachricht Von: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 08.12.2011 14:29 Betreff: [Vo]:Article - Quantum Entanglement Allows Diamonds to Communicate http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news-Quantum-Entanglement-Allows-Diamonds -to-Communicate-120511.aspx?xmlmenuid=51 Researchers have managed to get one small diamond to communicate with another small diamond utilizing quantum entanglement, one of the more mind-blowing features of quantum physics. The problem is: Entanglement means the diamonds are in connection, but the entanglement is destroyed as soon as an external influence kicks in. Therefore this cannot been used for communication. If one diamond is on mars and another is on earth then two observers one at earth and one at mars make the same observations without time delay, but they cannot interchange messages. The two diamonds behave like synchronized clocks. The mechanism could possibly been used for a precise one-way measurement of lightspeed.
