Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Nothing, if you own the fiber. I thought your wireless and telco operations were seperate? Matt We generally use Dragonwave or fiber to the AP. So no latency to speak of there. From our Canopy sub to our NOC I would say 7 is what most get. Wish we could afford Dragonwave or fiber to each site. How much does that cost? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Are you wanting to have a dissertation of FCC part 36 separations and settlements and the uniform system of accounts? Or perhaps NECA Tariff 5? My answer was a philosophical answer. The making of the sausage is ugly. But at the end of the day, all accounts are settled. - Original Message - From: Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Nothing, if you own the fiber. I thought your wireless and telco operations were seperate? Matt We generally use Dragonwave or fiber to the AP. So no latency to speak of there. From our Canopy sub to our NOC I would say 7 is what most get. Wish we could afford Dragonwave or fiber to each site. How much does that cost? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
lol Travis Johnson wrote: Separate pockets, same pair of pants. Travis Microserv Matt wrote: Nothing, if you own the fiber. I thought your wireless and telco operations were seperate? Matt We generally use Dragonwave or fiber to the AP. So no latency to speak of there. From our Canopy sub to our NOC I would say 7 is what most get. Wish we could afford Dragonwave or fiber to each site. How much does that cost? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
This is also available if you run Cacti. I added it to my standard CPE template a while back. ryan Pat O'Connor wrote: We're just starting to test this program. It's free so what the heck. http://oss.oetiker.ch/smokeping/ Tom DeReggi wrote: Guaranteeing latency One of the things we learned is that the ISP can't measure the customer's experience of latency accurately. And if the can;t measure it, they cant guarantee it. When pings initiate from the AP side, they always send without delay. When pings initiate from the SU side, they can be delayed from the polling or competing for their timeslice to transmit. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Hi, We don't use DHCP. Every single customer gets a real, static IP address. We also a assign a static IP address to every radio (for management). When I posted the question a month ago about how to force an SM to connect to a specific AP on a tower, the only answer was color code. This isn't really an option, as that means the installer has to change the color code in the field. All of our current radios are setup and ready to connect to ANY tower and ANY AP on that tower without the installer doing anything in the field. And how does first level tech support even find the correct radio in the AP list for a customer on the phone? They have to scroll through 160 people to find them by MAC address? Yes, Canopy is a slower radio in today's world. 14Mbps of total throughput on a 20mhz channel is SLOW. Using Mikrotik I can get 30Mbps (double the speed) on the same channel size. Or I can use a 10mhz channel and get 15Mbps. And all these speeds can be delivered via upload or download or any combination, I don't have to set a specific percentage of up/down. And how do you guarantee 7ms latency? What happens if a customer gets 8ms? And how do they test that measurement? And what happens when a customer completely clobbers an AP and 160 customers are getting 20ms latency? Or you have interference from a new provider and all those people get 100ms latency? Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been one to follow the norm. And I get to put $50 in my pocket on every install, and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing up to 4meg for $29.95 with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing up to 2meg, mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs than we can keep up with each month. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast giving away multi megabit starting at $15.95
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
With Canopy, and a correctly configured polling AP there is no competition for time slices unless the AP is overloaded. This is how the latency is consistent. Canopy has what is called control slots. This is a predetermined time that the SM is allowed to ask for resources. Increasing control slots can decrease overall bandwidth available by using up an additional time slice but allows for the latency to be consistent no matter the load. Basically the latency is built into the polling system. That is why a Trango, wifi and other solutions have a starting latency of 4ms vs Canopy at 8ms. The issues is the busier the Trango, wifi etc. get the higher the latency gets as the SM / CPE are asking for the AP's attention over top each other. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Tom DeReggi wrote: Guaranteeing latency One of the things we learned is that the ISP can't measure the customer's experience of latency accurately. And if the can;t measure it, they cant guarantee it. When pings initiate from the AP side, they always send without delay. When pings initiate from the SU side, they can be delayed from the polling or competing for their timeslice to transmit. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Hi, We don't use DHCP. Every single customer gets a real, static IP address. We also a assign a static IP address to every radio (for management). When I posted the question a month ago about how to force an SM to connect to a specific AP on a tower, the only answer was color code. This isn't really an option, as that means the installer has to change the color code in the field. All of our current radios are setup and ready to connect to ANY tower and ANY AP on that tower without the installer doing anything in the field. And how does first level tech support even find the correct radio in the AP list for a customer on the phone? They have to scroll through 160 people to find them by MAC address? Yes, Canopy is a slower radio in today's world. 14Mbps of total throughput on a 20mhz channel is SLOW. Using Mikrotik I can get 30Mbps (double the speed) on the same channel size. Or I can use a 10mhz channel and get 15Mbps. And all these speeds can be delivered via upload or download or any combination, I don't have to set a specific percentage of up/down. And how do you guarantee 7ms latency? What happens if a customer gets 8ms? And how do they test that measurement? And what happens when a customer completely clobbers an AP and 160 customers are getting 20ms latency? Or you have interference from a new provider and all those people get 100ms latency? Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been one to follow the norm. And I get to put $50 in my pocket on every install, and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Can you SNMP query the SU, to pull latency stats that might have been recorded at the SU from the SU side? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers snmp is a wonderful thing... - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Our front end tech support only needs the phone number or account number to instantly find and edit every detail about the customer. No scrolling, no nothing. This includes AP, SM, IP, LUID etc. That is no problem at all. You can manage SM/AP pairing with color codes or frequencies. Since this is not 802.11 latency is guaranteed by the protocol. And we have high priority BW on each AP for Voip. Voip on our system is form fit and function equivalent to LEC POTS service. Quality, LNP, E-911 etc. I have a hard time accepting that you can do that on 802.11 gear. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Hi, We don't use DHCP. Every single customer gets a real, static IP address. We also a assign a static IP address to every radio (for management). When I posted the question a month ago about how to force an SM to connect to a specific AP on a tower, the only answer was color code. This isn't really an option, as that means the installer has to change the color code in the field. All of our current radios are setup and ready to connect to ANY tower and ANY AP on that tower without the installer doing anything in the field. And how does first level tech support even find the correct radio in the AP list for a customer on the phone? They have to scroll through 160 people to find them by MAC address? Yes, Canopy is a slower radio in today's world. 14Mbps of total throughput on a 20mhz channel is SLOW. Using Mikrotik I can get 30Mbps (double the speed) on the same channel size. Or I can use a 10mhz channel and get 15Mbps. And all these speeds can be delivered via upload or download or any combination, I don't have to set a specific percentage of up/down. And how do you guarantee 7ms latency? What happens if a customer gets 8ms? And how do they test that measurement? And what happens when a customer completely clobbers an AP and 160 customers are getting 20ms latency? Or you have interference from a new provider and all those people get 100ms latency? Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been one to follow the norm. And I get to put $50 in my pocket on every install, and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Not quite sure what all is in the MIB but Canopy has fixed AP/SM latency. It is always the same unless the AP is totally out of headroom. And that is easy to manage by not overloading the AP. Once you are in the 130-160 range of SMs on an AP it is time to add another AP. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 3:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Can you SNMP query the SU, to pull latency stats that might have been recorded at the SU from the SU side? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers snmp is a wonderful thing... - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Our front end tech support only needs the phone number or account number to instantly find and edit every detail about the customer. No scrolling, no nothing. This includes AP, SM, IP, LUID etc. That is no problem at all. You can manage SM/AP pairing with color codes or frequencies. Since this is not 802.11 latency is guaranteed by the protocol. And we have high priority BW on each AP for Voip. Voip on our system is form fit and function equivalent to LEC POTS service. Quality, LNP, E-911 etc. I have a hard time accepting that you can do that on 802.11 gear. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Hi, We don't use DHCP. Every single customer gets a real, static IP address. We also a assign a static IP address to every radio (for management). When I posted the question a month ago about how to force an SM to connect to a specific AP on a tower, the only answer was color code. This isn't really an option, as that means the installer has to change the color code in the field. All of our current radios are setup and ready to connect to ANY tower and ANY AP on that tower without the installer doing anything in the field. And how does first level tech support even find the correct radio in the AP list for a customer on the phone? They have to scroll through 160 people to find them by MAC address? Yes, Canopy is a slower radio in today's world. 14Mbps of total throughput on a 20mhz channel is SLOW. Using Mikrotik I can get 30Mbps (double the speed) on the same channel size. Or I can use a 10mhz channel and get 15Mbps. And all these speeds can be delivered via upload or download or any combination, I don't have to set a specific percentage of up/down. And how do you guarantee 7ms latency? What happens if a customer gets 8ms? And how do they test that measurement? And what happens when a customer completely clobbers an AP and 160 customers are getting 20ms latency? Or you have interference from a new provider and all those people get 100ms latency? Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been one to follow the norm. And I get to put $50
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
With Canopy, and a correctly configured polling AP there is no competition for time slices unless the AP is overloaded. This is how Won't be long and they will be overloaded. http://tinyurl.com/5tel8m As a rule of thumb we do not currently offer rate plans that are more then 33 percent higher then capacity. So on a 20m canopy ap with actualy downstream of say 10m we would not offer over 3.3m. When the aps max out latency goes to crap and gamers and others complain. So what is everyone going to do when users start moving 200gbyte a month? Looks like we will need 1mbps of back bone bandwidth for every two custommers. Does not scale very well. Ugh. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
What we are also learnign is that we can only Guarantee what the customer's usage perception was, and we can go faster than teh weakest link. For example, From our NOC to the customer we can usually get less than 5ms to any/everywhere. 5ms to anywhere in your network? Wow. What are you using for backhauls and AP's? How many hops? Used to use Trango AP's and backhauls years ago and sites just a couple hops out never did that well. With Canopy we see ~5ms per backhaul and ~20ms per non-advantage ap. ~10ms advantage ap. Busy backhauls tend to have higher latency. Matt And from our NOC towards the Internet we can get under 5ms right before leaving our Upstream's netwokr. But its not uncommon to ahve 40ms or 80ms latency to specific sites depending on where the destination is. The custoemr can never go faster than teh speed of their Internet destination's ISP provided. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
We generally use Dragonwave or fiber to the AP. So no latency to speak of there. From our Canopy sub to our NOC I would say 7 is what most get. - Original Message - From: Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:08 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers What we are also learnign is that we can only Guarantee what the customer's usage perception was, and we can go faster than teh weakest link. For example, From our NOC to the customer we can usually get less than 5ms to any/everywhere. 5ms to anywhere in your network? Wow. What are you using for backhauls and AP's? How many hops? Used to use Trango AP's and backhauls years ago and sites just a couple hops out never did that well. With Canopy we see ~5ms per backhaul and ~20ms per non-advantage ap. ~10ms advantage ap. Busy backhauls tend to have higher latency. Matt And from our NOC towards the Internet we can get under 5ms right before leaving our Upstream's netwokr. But its not uncommon to ahve 40ms or 80ms latency to specific sites depending on where the destination is. The custoemr can never go faster than teh speed of their Internet destination's ISP provided. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
We generally use Dragonwave or fiber to the AP. So no latency to speak of there. From our Canopy sub to our NOC I would say 7 is what most get. Wish we could afford Dragonwave or fiber to each site. How much does that cost? Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Guaranteeing latency One of the things we learned is that the ISP can't measure the customer's experience of latency accurately. And if the can;t measure it, they cant guarantee it. When pings initiate from the AP side, they always send without delay. When pings initiate from the SU side, they can be delayed from the polling or competing for their timeslice to transmit. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Hi, We don't use DHCP. Every single customer gets a real, static IP address. We also a assign a static IP address to every radio (for management). When I posted the question a month ago about how to force an SM to connect to a specific AP on a tower, the only answer was color code. This isn't really an option, as that means the installer has to change the color code in the field. All of our current radios are setup and ready to connect to ANY tower and ANY AP on that tower without the installer doing anything in the field. And how does first level tech support even find the correct radio in the AP list for a customer on the phone? They have to scroll through 160 people to find them by MAC address? Yes, Canopy is a slower radio in today's world. 14Mbps of total throughput on a 20mhz channel is SLOW. Using Mikrotik I can get 30Mbps (double the speed) on the same channel size. Or I can use a 10mhz channel and get 15Mbps. And all these speeds can be delivered via upload or download or any combination, I don't have to set a specific percentage of up/down. And how do you guarantee 7ms latency? What happens if a customer gets 8ms? And how do they test that measurement? And what happens when a customer completely clobbers an AP and 160 customers are getting 20ms latency? Or you have interference from a new provider and all those people get 100ms latency? Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been one to follow the norm. And I get to put $50 in my pocket on every install, and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing up to 4meg for $29.95 with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing up to 2meg, mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs than we can keep up with each month. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast giving away multi megabit starting at $15.95 - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have to? Most people don't need more than 1meg
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
It appears that Canopy has stepped up its game with their more recent models. Thats good to hear. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 8:59 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Tom, those speeds are possible with non-advantage P10 hardware. Version 9 of the software gives you 6800 pps too on P10 hardware. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Rick, When you reference Trango are you referring to the Access 5800 series? On 11/1/08, RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with Tom. I tried Canopy but didnt like this aspect of it. So, I continued using Trango and love them! -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chuck, Not to rain on your parade but... I'm a little confused on how 10.2 mbps is possible w/ Canopy. Advantage series peak capacity is just for short range customers, and a large percentage of the capacity can be voided by by the farther out slower non-advantage CPEs. When Up/down rate ratios have to be pre-fined (for syncing) that limits the radio from using the ful capacity of the Radio. Its one of the big reasons that we chose Trango 8 years ago originally, so that it was infact possible to get full radio speed in one direction when it was available in low usage time, so we could quote higher speeds to business symetrical customers. Sure, if we consider 14mb real world advantage best case for Advantage series, use all advantage series CPE, and do a 70 / 30 download to upload, sure 10mbps peak downloads are possible for a single client, in that scenario. Provided that the WISP was fine with all other customers being 100% STARVED at the time the one customer was monopolizing the peak capacity. We tried that once, and it was a big mistake because it caused latency to sky rocket for all the other customers when they first attempted to use capacity, and the feel of the circuit because very bursty feeling. The short pauses made it feel like something was wrong with the circuit. TCP could not deal with it properly, it needs time to tune. Because of TCP's reaction, it actually translated to a slower experience than if we just gave customers half the speed. So My Points is Your concept of bursting a HIGH capacity for short periods is a sound concept, provided that you never let one cusomer have ALL your bandwdith. Headroom is needed. We found that if we let our customers burst to half the radio full capacity, we could use the same technique sucessfully because all the other subs were NEVER starved from bandwidth. We tried pushing the limits, such as allowing 7-8mb out of the 10mb, but it was to risky to do that because there were times when the full 10mbps was not achieve, such as when link quality degraded and retransmission occured do to RF packetloss, or when small packets were being used instead of pull packet size. Customers would suffer with the effects of non bandwdith shaping. There was also some issues with how well bandwdith shaping worked on Intel systems at 10mbps, as 10mbps speeds is about the peak speed before it exceed Intel's interupt clock limits of 100 ticks per second, nor was common Fair Weighted Queuing method able to be operation simultanoeus to trying to be used with Burst bucket type queuing. (Unless you aren't using Intel) So if we have a 10mbps HDX radio, we would sell peak 5 mbps services, and this would allow us to deliver good non-bursty performance without delays, and let us acheive high over subscription rates. And if we had a FDX imulated radio, that downloaded at 10mbps, again 5mbps would be the peak speed we allowed in our bursting. To keep it Real, With Canopy Advantage series, I'd highly recommend to WISPs that they do not commit to offer peak speeds above 5mbps per customer. It can result in severe degration at some customers sites that could be going on, and the WISP never really know it if they weren't sitting in front of the end user computers experiencing exactly what the end user was experienceing. And if you don't believe me, and want to push the limits, maybe 7mbps, but anything above that... its getting risky. That is provided that you'd be advertising Real Transfer Speed, instead of gross over the air speed. There have been some WISP that have quoted 11mbps for 2.4Ghz DSSS wifi systems that could only pass 3mbps, because they quoted Hardware gross specs and not real throughput. But in todays world, that is gettign harder and harder to do, with the many online speed test sites that are becoming common practice for end users to use to test
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Nothing, if you own the fiber. - Original Message - From: Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We generally use Dragonwave or fiber to the AP. So no latency to speak of there. From our Canopy sub to our NOC I would say 7 is what most get. Wish we could afford Dragonwave or fiber to each site. How much does that cost? Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
you can decide how much bandwidth you want to set aside for ARQ. Thats pretty cool. is that a new feature as of a specif fiormware, or has it been there all along? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers With Canopy, you can decide how much bandwidth you want to set aside for ARQ. It has its own slice of the overhead and you can limit it to 2 kbps if you want. Most pick 20 kbps. But it really isn't a factor. With 120 on an AP at 5.8 with most of them subscribing to 512 Kbps 10.2 Mbps burst they do get 7 mS latency and everyone is happy. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] The other big factor is ARQ. (ps. dont say Canopies don't need arq because their C/I allows them to not have interference :-) The benefits of ARQ are well proven and justifed, which is why Canopy and Trango supports it. If there are ARQ retransmissions, latency WILL rise. You won;t see it from the AP side because the Pings go our right away, but from the client, The ARQ needs to wait for its next time slice to retransmit. Again, I don't want to get into which manufacturer's ARQ is a better implementation. Just pointing out that ARQ is one of hte factors that prevents an ISP from knowing exactly what the latency is that the customer is experiencing, without testing from the customer side. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Been there for quite some time. Not sure when it was added. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 3:57 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers you can decide how much bandwidth you want to set aside for ARQ. Thats pretty cool. is that a new feature as of a specif fiormware, or has it been there all along? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers With Canopy, you can decide how much bandwidth you want to set aside for ARQ. It has its own slice of the overhead and you can limit it to 2 kbps if you want. Most pick 20 kbps. But it really isn't a factor. With 120 on an AP at 5.8 with most of them subscribing to 512 Kbps 10.2 Mbps burst they do get 7 mS latency and everyone is happy. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] The other big factor is ARQ. (ps. dont say Canopies don't need arq because their C/I allows them to not have interference :-) The benefits of ARQ are well proven and justifed, which is why Canopy and Trango supports it. If there are ARQ retransmissions, latency WILL rise. You won;t see it from the AP side because the Pings go our right away, but from the client, The ARQ needs to wait for its next time slice to retransmit. Again, I don't want to get into which manufacturer's ARQ is a better implementation. Just pointing out that ARQ is one of hte factors that prevents an ISP from knowing exactly what the latency is that the customer is experiencing, without testing from the customer side. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
I've heard lots of good things about Dragonwave I can speak for Redline an50s. My favorite toy ever. On 11/4/08, Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Been there for quite some time. Not sure when it was added. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 3:57 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers you can decide how much bandwidth you want to set aside for ARQ. Thats pretty cool. is that a new feature as of a specif fiormware, or has it been there all along? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers With Canopy, you can decide how much bandwidth you want to set aside for ARQ. It has its own slice of the overhead and you can limit it to 2 kbps if you want. Most pick 20 kbps. But it really isn't a factor. With 120 on an AP at 5.8 with most of them subscribing to 512 Kbps 10.2 Mbps burst they do get 7 mS latency and everyone is happy. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] The other big factor is ARQ. (ps. dont say Canopies don't need arq because their C/I allows them to not have interference :-) The benefits of ARQ are well proven and justifed, which is why Canopy and Trango supports it. If there are ARQ retransmissions, latency WILL rise. You won;t see it from the AP side because the Pings go our right away, but from the client, The ARQ needs to wait for its next time slice to retransmit. Again, I don't want to get into which manufacturer's ARQ is a better implementation. Just pointing out that ARQ is one of hte factors that prevents an ISP from knowing exactly what the latency is that the customer is experiencing, without testing from the customer side. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Sent from my mobile device Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Mesa Networks did. we had our own customer database called MOMS. When a customer called in for support all we had to do was click a button, and 90% of the time it would get us right to the customers SM. Sometimes the tool timed out. but it is very possible to write something should you want to. I'd bet the time investment that was made paid off 10 fold in time saved down the road Daniel White 3-dB Networks _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 9:10 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers So obviously you have written some custom software... to which there was probably a big investment. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Our front end tech support only needs the phone number or account number to instantly find and edit every detail about the customer. No scrolling, no nothing. This includes AP, SM, IP, LUID etc. That is no problem at all. You can manage SM/AP pairing with color codes or frequencies. Since this is not 802.11 latency is guaranteed by the protocol. And we have high priority BW on each AP for Voip. Voip on our system is form fit and function equivalent to LEC POTS service. Quality, LNP, E-911 etc. I have a hard time accepting that you can do that on 802.11 gear. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Hi, We don't use DHCP. Every single customer gets a real, static IP address. We also a assign a static IP address to every radio (for management). When I posted the question a month ago about how to force an SM to connect to a specific AP on a tower, the only answer was color code. This isn't really an option, as that means the installer has to change the color code in the field. All of our current radios are setup and ready to connect to ANY tower and ANY AP on that tower without the installer doing anything in the field. And how does first level tech support even find the correct radio in the AP list for a customer on the phone? They have to scroll through 160 people to find them by MAC address? Yes, Canopy is a slower radio in today's world. 14Mbps of total throughput on a 20mhz channel is SLOW. Using Mikrotik I can get 30Mbps (double the speed) on the same channel size. Or I can use a 10mhz channel and get 15Mbps. And all these speeds can be delivered via upload or download or any combination, I don't have to set a specific percentage of up/down. And how do you guarantee 7ms latency? What happens if a customer gets 8ms? And how do they test that measurement? And what happens when a customer completely clobbers an AP and 160 customers are getting 20ms latency? Or you have interference from a new provider and all those people get 100ms latency? Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been one to follow the norm. And I get to put $50 in my pocket on every install, and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Rick, Just curious, where is this ISP you took over? Randy RickG wrote: Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher speeds. Technically speaking, the download upload price is the same. From a cost standpoint, I allocate the download upload separately because I am forced to pay dearly ($1200/month) to ATT for my dual T1's which are required for decent upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. This works fairly well for now since about half the traffic is web browsing. When I bought this WISP there was no management, monitoring or reporting. I took care of the management monitoring and I'm working on the reporting. The best thing I've done is replace the StarOS firewall with Mikrotik and set up traffic priority. Whew! Lots of work. At any rate, I'm working on my upstream connection next. I really need to get the cost down. Thanks! -RickG On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, Yes, all of our packages are symmetrical speeds (same download and upload). So if they buy our 512k package, they get 512k down x 512k up all the time. They are not dedicated connections, but rather you get what you pay for connections. We still oversubscribe users on an AP, but only to the point where each AP is running around 60% capacity during peak times, thus leaving room for bursts, etc. We graph and monitor every single AP (over 200 of them) and every single user (bandwidth, packets, RSSI, etc.) so we always know what's happening on our network. We currently have three full OC-3 (155Mbps) dedicated connections to the backbone. On average, we pay $40/meg for bandwidth. Why is your upload price different than your download price? Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, Nice work! Therefore, you are selling dedicated bandwidth to all of your customers. In other words, if all your customers run speed test at the same time they will get what their plan allows. If you dont mind, I have a few questions: Is the above scenario true for upload speed as well as download speed? What are you paying for your upstream connection? What type of upstream connection do you have? I'd like to be there and I keep hoping cheap bandwidth comes my way. When you are paying $150/meg for download and $400/meg for upload, the business model is tough. -RickG BTW: I'd take this offlist if you prefer but I think this is a problem that many us us small WISP's face. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Every customer can get the speed they are paying for ANY time they run a speed test. We offer packages from 512k to 2.5meg for residential customers and they always get what they pay for (download AND upload, which is the same for all of our packages). Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, If I understand this correctly, you have at least 1Mbps or higher of bandwidth for every customer? -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We deliver what the customers pay for. If they purchase a 1Mbps package, they get 1Mbps 24x7 (with no monthly bit caps). Personally I have never liked the up to speed packages... it's like going to Walmart and buying milk. You can pay $3 for a full 1 gallon, or you can pay $2 for up to a gallon (without really knowing how much you are going to get, but it will be somewhere between nothing and a full gallon). Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
with their speed and quality of RF. But I'm just sharing what we've learned with Bandwidth management, since we've been doing it since 2001. Maybe the Canopy 400series, can deliver the higher throughputs ? I heard Motorolla was planning on making a 5.8G model of teh 400 series? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Our Canopy customers are used to getting 10.2 Mbps download speed. If the start a huge file transfer they get wide open throttle for a while (that while depends on their rate plan) then they get throttled until that particular file transfer is over. Once they stop, wide open throttle again. They love it. The power users call in and upgrade their rate plan all the time. Excellent up sell opportunities with zero effort. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers How does Canopy fix a customer satisfaction problem? If they are used to getting 5Mbps download speed and you have to cap them at 1Mbps, it doesn't really matter what platform you are using. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Canopy... - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Travis, Nice work! Therefore, you are selling dedicated bandwidth to all of your customers. In other words, if all your customers run speed test at the same time they will get what their plan allows. If you dont mind, I have a few questions: Is the above scenario true for upload speed as well as download speed? What are you paying for your upstream connection? What type of upstream connection do you have? I'd like to be there and I keep hoping cheap bandwidth comes my way. When you are paying $150/meg for download and $400/meg for upload, the business model is tough. -RickG BTW: I'd take this offlist if you prefer but I think this is a problem that many us us small WISP's face. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Every customer can get the speed they are paying for ANY time they run a speed test. We offer packages from 512k to 2.5meg for residential customers and they always get what they pay for (download AND upload, which is the same for all of our packages). Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, If I understand this correctly, you have at least 1Mbps or higher of bandwidth for every customer? -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We deliver what the customers pay for. If they purchase a 1Mbps package, they get 1Mbps 24x7 (with no monthly bit caps). Personally I have never liked the up to speed packages... it's like going to Walmart and buying milk. You can pay $3 for a full 1 gallon, or you can pay $2 for up to a gallon (without really knowing how much you are going to get, but it will be somewhere between nothing and a full gallon). Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Rick, Yes, all of our packages are symmetrical speeds (same download and upload). So if they buy our 512k package, they get 512k down x 512k up all the time. They are not "dedicated" connections, but rather you get what you pay for connections. We still oversubscribe users on an AP, but only to the point where each AP is running around 60% capacity during peak times, thus leaving room for bursts, etc. We graph and monitor every single AP (over 200 of them) and every single user (bandwidth, packets, RSSI, etc.) so we always know what's happening on our network. We currently have three full OC-3 (155Mbps) dedicated connections to the backbone. On average, we pay $40/meg for bandwidth. Why is your upload price different than your download price? Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, Nice work! Therefore, you are selling dedicated bandwidth to all of your customers. In other words, if all your customers run speed test at the same time they will get what their plan allows. If you dont mind, I have a few questions: Is the above scenario true for upload speed as well as download speed? What are you paying for your upstream connection? What type of upstream connection do you have? I'd like to be there and I keep hoping cheap bandwidth comes my way. When you are paying $150/meg for download and $400/meg for upload, the business model is tough. -RickG BTW: I'd take this offlist if you prefer but I think this is a problem that many us us small WISP's face. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Every customer can get the speed they are paying for ANY time they run a speed test. We offer packages from 512k to 2.5meg for residential customers and they always get what they pay for (download AND upload, which is the same for all of our packages). Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, If I understand this correctly, you have at least 1Mbps or higher of bandwidth for every customer? -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We deliver what the customers pay for. If they purchase a 1Mbps package, they get 1Mbps 24x7 (with no monthly bit caps). Personally I have never liked the "up to" speed packages... it's like going to Walmart and buying milk. You can pay $3 for a full 1 gallon, or you can pay $2 for "up to" a gallon (without really knowing how much you are going to get, but it will be somewhere between nothing and a full gallon). Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher speeds. Technically speaking, the download upload price is the same. From a cost standpoint, I allocate the download upload separately because I am forced to pay dearly ($1200/month) to ATT for my dual T1's which are required for decent upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. This works fairly well for now since about half the traffic is web browsing. When I bought this WISP there was no management, monitoring or reporting. I took care of the management monitoring and I'm working on the reporting. The best thing I've done is replace the StarOS firewall with Mikrotik and set up traffic priority. Whew! Lots of work. At any rate, I'm working on my upstream connection next. I really need to get the cost down. Thanks! -RickG On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, Yes, all of our packages are symmetrical speeds (same download and upload). So if they buy our 512k package, they get 512k down x 512k up all the time. They are not dedicated connections, but rather you get what you pay for connections. We still oversubscribe users on an AP, but only to the point where each AP is running around 60% capacity during peak times, thus leaving room for bursts, etc. We graph and monitor every single AP (over 200 of them) and every single user (bandwidth, packets, RSSI, etc.) so we always know what's happening on our network. We currently have three full OC-3 (155Mbps) dedicated connections to the backbone. On average, we pay $40/meg for bandwidth. Why is your upload price different than your download price? Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, Nice work! Therefore, you are selling dedicated bandwidth to all of your customers. In other words, if all your customers run speed test at the same time they will get what their plan allows. If you dont mind, I have a few questions: Is the above scenario true for upload speed as well as download speed? What are you paying for your upstream connection? What type of upstream connection do you have? I'd like to be there and I keep hoping cheap bandwidth comes my way. When you are paying $150/meg for download and $400/meg for upload, the business model is tough. -RickG BTW: I'd take this offlist if you prefer but I think this is a problem that many us us small WISP's face. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Every customer can get the speed they are paying for ANY time they run a speed test. We offer packages from 512k to 2.5meg for residential customers and they always get what they pay for (download AND upload, which is the same for all of our packages). Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, If I understand this correctly, you have at least 1Mbps or higher of bandwidth for every customer? -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We deliver what the customers pay for. If they purchase a 1Mbps package, they get 1Mbps 24x7 (with no monthly bit caps). Personally I have never liked the up to speed packages... it's like going to Walmart and buying milk. You can pay $3 for a full 1 gallon, or you can pay $2 for up to a gallon (without really knowing how much you are going to get, but it will be somewhere between nothing and a full gallon). Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have to? Most people don't need more than 1meg, and that's our most popular package for $39.95 per month (total, no modem rental fee, etc.). Why give away the farm if you don't have to? :) Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher speeds. Technically speaking, the download upload price is the same. From a cost standpoint, I allocate the download upload separately because I am "forced" to pay dearly ($1200/month) to ATT for my dual T1's which are required for "decent" upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. This works fairly well for now since about half the traffic is web browsing. When I bought this WISP there was no management, monitoring or reporting. I took care of the management monitoring and I'm working on the reporting. The best thing I've done is replace the StarOS firewall with Mikrotik and set up traffic priority. Whew! Lots of work. At any rate, I'm working on my upstream connection next. I really need to get the cost down. Thanks! -RickG On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, Yes, all of our packages are symmetrical speeds (same download and upload). So if they buy our 512k package, they get 512k down x 512k up all the time. They are not "dedicated" connections, but rather you get what you pay for connections. We still oversubscribe users on an AP, but only to the point where each AP is running around 60% capacity during peak times, thus leaving room for bursts, etc. We graph and monitor every single AP (over 200 of them) and every single user (bandwidth, packets, RSSI, etc.) so we always know what's happening on our network. We currently have three full OC-3 (155Mbps) dedicated connections to the backbone. On average, we pay $40/meg for bandwidth. Why is your upload price different than your download price? Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, Nice work! Therefore, you are selling dedicated bandwidth to all of your customers. In other words, if all your customers run speed test at the same time they will get what their plan allows. If you dont mind, I have a few questions: Is the above scenario true for upload speed as well as download speed? What are you paying for your upstream connection? What type of upstream connection do you have? I'd like to be there and I keep hoping cheap bandwidth comes my way. When you are paying $150/meg for download and $400/meg for upload, the business model is tough. -RickG BTW: I'd take this offlist if you prefer but I think this is a problem that many us us small WISP's face. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Every customer can get the speed they are paying for ANY time they run a speed test. We offer packages from 512k to 2.5meg for residential customers and they always get what they pay for (download AND upload, which is the same for all of our packages). Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, If I understand this correctly, you have at least 1Mbps or higher of bandwidth for every customer? -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We deliver what the customers pay for. If they purchase a 1Mbps package, they get 1Mbps 24x7 (with no monthly bit caps). Personally I have never liked the "up to" speed packages... it's like going to Walmart and buying milk. You can pay $3 for a full 1 gallon, or you can pay $2 for "up to" a gallon (without really knowing how much you are going to get, but it will be somewhere between nothing and a full gallon). Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast giving away multi megabit starting at $15.95 - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have to? Most people don't need more than 1meg, and that's our most popular package for $39.95 per month (total, no modem rental fee, etc.). Why give away the farm if you don't have to? :) Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher speeds. Technically speaking, the download upload price is the same. From a cost standpoint, I allocate the download upload separately because I am forced to pay dearly ($1200/month) to ATT for my dual T1's which are required for decent upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. This works fairly well for now since about half the traffic is web browsing. When I bought this WISP there was no management, monitoring or reporting. I took care of the management monitoring and I'm working on the reporting. The best thing I've done is replace the StarOS firewall with Mikrotik and set up traffic priority. Whew! Lots of work. At any rate, I'm working on my upstream connection next. I really need to get the cost down. Thanks! -RickG On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, Yes, all of our packages are symmetrical speeds (same download and upload). So if they buy our 512k package, they get 512k down x 512k up all the time. They are not dedicated connections, but rather you get what you pay for connections. We still oversubscribe users on an AP, but only to the point where each AP is running around 60% capacity during peak times, thus leaving room for bursts, etc. We graph and monitor every single AP (over 200 of them) and every single user (bandwidth, packets, RSSI, etc.) so we always know what's happening on our network. We currently have three full OC-3 (155Mbps) dedicated connections to the backbone. On average, we pay $40/meg for bandwidth. Why is your upload price different than your download price? Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, Nice work! Therefore, you are selling dedicated bandwidth to all of your customers. In other words, if all your customers run speed test at the same time they will get what their plan allows. If you dont mind, I have a few questions: Is the above scenario true for upload speed as well as download speed? What are you paying for your upstream connection? What type of upstream connection do you have? I'd like to be there and I keep hoping cheap bandwidth comes my way. When you are paying $150/meg for download and $400/meg for upload, the business model is tough. -RickG BTW: I'd take this offlist if you prefer but I think this is a problem that many us us small WISP's face. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Every customer can get the speed they are paying for ANY time they run a speed test. We offer packages from 512k to 2.5meg for residential customers and they always get what they pay for (download AND upload, which is the same for all of our packages). Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, If I understand this correctly, you have at least 1Mbps or higher of bandwidth for every customer? -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We deliver what the customers pay for. If they purchase a 1Mbps package, they get 1Mbps 24x7 (with no monthly bit caps). Personally I have never liked the up to speed packages... it's like going to Walmart and buying milk. You can pay $3 for a full 1 gallon, or you can pay $2 for up to a gallon (without really knowing how much you are going to get, but it will be somewhere between nothing and a full gallon). Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing up to 4meg for $29.95 with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing up to 2meg, mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs than we can keep up with each month. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast giving away multi megabit starting at $15.95 - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have to? Most people don't need more than 1meg, and that's our most popular package for $39.95 per month (total, no modem rental fee, etc.). Why give away the farm if you don't have to? :) Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher speeds. Technically speaking, the download upload price is the same. From a cost standpoint, I allocate the download upload separately because I am forced to pay dearly ($1200/month) to ATT for my dual T1's which are required for decent upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. This works fairly well for now since about half the traffic is web browsing. When I bought this WISP there was no management, monitoring or reporting. I took care of the management monitoring and I'm working on the reporting. The best thing I've done is replace the StarOS firewall with Mikrotik and set up traffic priority. Whew! Lots of work. At any rate, I'm working on my upstream connection next. I really need to get the cost down. Thanks! -RickG On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, Yes, all of our packages are symmetrical speeds (same download and upload). So if they buy our 512k package, they get 512k down x 512k up all the time. They are not dedicated connections, but rather you get what you pay for connections. We still oversubscribe users on an AP, but only to the point where each AP is running around 60% capacity during peak times, thus leaving room for bursts, etc. We graph and monitor every single AP (over 200 of them) and every single user (bandwidth, packets, RSSI, etc.) so we always know what's happening on our network. We currently have three full OC-3 (155Mbps) dedicated connections to the backbone. On average, we pay $40/meg for bandwidth. Why is your upload price different than your download price? Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, Nice work! Therefore, you are selling dedicated bandwidth to all of your customers. In other words, if all your customers run speed test at the same time they will get what their plan allows. If you dont mind, I have a few questions: Is the above scenario true for upload speed as well as download speed? What are you paying for your upstream connection? What type of upstream connection do you have? I'd like to be there and I keep hoping cheap bandwidth comes my way. When you are paying $150/meg for download and $400/meg for upload, the business model is tough. -RickG BTW: I'd take this offlist if you prefer but I think this is a problem that many us us small WISP's face. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Every customer can get the speed they are paying for ANY time they run a speed test. We offer packages from 512k to 2.5meg for residential customers and they always get what they pay for (download AND upload, which is the same for all of our packages). Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, If I understand this correctly, you have at least 1Mbps or higher of bandwidth for every customer? -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We deliver what the customers pay for. If they purchase a 1Mbps package, they get 1Mbps 24x7 (with no monthly bit caps). Personally I have never liked the up to speed packages... it's like going to Walmart and buying milk. You can pay $3 for a full 1 gallon, or you can pay $2 for up to a gallon (without really knowing how much you are going to get, but it will be somewhere between nothing and a full gallon). Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Yes... I think Bridgemaxx has some issues to work out (especially with the economy the way it is now) and here's why. Honestly, I'm not sure what "space" they are trying to compete. They are using Alvarion's mobile WiMax (2.5ghz) product. We have service at our office from it and it's horrible. We are only about 1.5 miles from one of their towers and the best speed we have seen is 800k down x 400k up. Latency is horrible as well (usually around 100ms). In our area (population 51,000) they installed base stations on four towers. They used 18ghz Ceragon radios and created a "ring" around the city. So just the cost on the backhauls and Base stations is probably over $300,000. Then every single CPE is over $400. We are starting to see a lot of their radios have to be "professionally" installed (meaning a truck roll). I thought the whole idea was no truck roll? Seems to remove the "mobile" part of the service. Then they are charging $29.95 per month for service plus $4 per month for the modem rental. I'm not sure how they ever plan to break-even on their investment when they had to spend MILLIONS to buy the 2.5ghz license from the previous company ($7 million is the rumor). Then, they aren't truly mobile. If you stay within each city, you can get service by just plugging in the modem... but you can't drive down the freeway and get anything... so they seem to be in the middle between fixed wireless (WISP) and truly mobile (cell providers). My emails about a year ago indicated I was pretty sure they were in it for the "short haul"... meaning they would build it up enough to get someone like Clearwire or Sprint to come buy it. Now with everything else going on (economy, stock market, politics, mergers, etc.) I don't see that happening any time soon... so they may be in serious trouble shortly. Just my $.02 worth. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Found this letter about Bridgemaxx: Not that you care or this message will get to anyone with proper authority to do something ... Your service is getting overloaded and not usable at 224 West Central in Missoula Montana. It's not my set up because it is happening to everyone in the community. Your getting a bad name and your commercials are adding fuel to the fire. Last night the service was down and since I got a bill this morning I thought I would write and bitch about the terrible service. When there is a viable alternative in Missoula tons of customers will jump ship unless you do the right thing now. - Original Message - From: "Chuck McCown - 3" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: "Travis Johnson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing "up to 4meg" for $29.95 with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing "up to 2meg", mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs than we can keep up with each month. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast giving away multi megabit starting at $15.95 - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have to? Most people don't need more than 1meg, and that's our most popular package for $39.95 per month (total, no modem rental fee, etc.). Why give away the farm if you don't have to? :) Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher speeds. Technically speaking, the download upload price is the same. From a cost standpoint, I allocate the download upload separately because I am "forced" to pay dearly ($1200/month) to ATT for my dual T1's which are required for "decent" upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. This works fairly well for now since about half the traffic is web browsing. When I bought this WISP there was no management, monitoring or reporting. I took care of the management monitoring and I'm working on the reporting. The best thing I've done is replace the StarOS firewall with Mikrotik and set up traffic priority. Whew! Lots of work. At any rate, I'm wo
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
I just read where they received there third round of financing. Something over ten million which puts them somewhere in the 50 million range as a guess. Last I spoke with their CEO they were pushing 2 customers with an arpu of around $30. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 2, 2008, at 2:50 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes... I think Bridgemaxx has some issues to work out (especially with the economy the way it is now) and here's why. Honestly, I'm not sure what space they are trying to compete. They are using Alvarion's mobile WiMax (2.5ghz) product. We have service at our office from it and it's horrible. We are only about 1.5 miles from one of their towers and the best speed we have seen is 800k down x 400k up. Latency is horrible as well (usually around 100ms). In our area (population 51,000) they installed base stations on four towers. They used 18ghz Ceragon radios and created a ring around the city. So just the cost on the backhauls and Base stations is probably over $300,000. Then every single CPE is over $400. We are starting to see a lot of their radios have to be professionally installed (meaning a truck roll). I thought the whole idea was no truck roll? Seems to remove the mobile part of the service. Then they are charging $29.95 per month for service plus $4 per month for the modem rental. I'm not sure how they ever plan to break-even on their investment when they had to spend MILLIONS to buy the 2.5ghz license from the previous company ($7 million is the rumor). Then, they aren't truly mobile. If you stay within each city, you can get service by just plugging in the modem... but you can't drive down the freeway and get anything... so they seem to be in the middle between fixed wireless (WISP) and truly mobile (cell providers). My emails about a year ago indicated I was pretty sure they were in it for the short haul... meaning they would build it up enough to get someone like Clearwire or Sprint to come buy it. Now with everything else going on (economy, stock market, politics, mergers, etc.) I don't see that happening any time soon... so they may be in serious trouble shortly. Just my $.02 worth. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Found this letter about Bridgemaxx: Not that you care or this message will get to anyone with proper authority to do something ... Your service is getting overloaded and not usable at 224 West Central in Missoula Montana. It's not my set up because it is happening to everyone in the community. Your getting a bad name and your commercials are adding fuel to the fire. Last night the service was down and since I got a bill this morning I thought I would write and bitch about the terrible service. When there is a viable alternative in Missoula tons of customers will jump ship unless you do the right thing now. - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing up to 4meg for $29.95 with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing up to 2meg, mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs than we can keep up with each month. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast giving away multi megabit starting at $15.95 - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have to? Most people don't need more than 1meg, and that's our most popular package for $39.95 per month (total, no modem rental fee, etc.). Why give away the farm if you don't have to? :) Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher speeds. Technically speaking, the download upload price is the same. From a cost standpoint, I allocate the download upload separately because I am forced to pay dearly ($1200/month) to ATT for my dual T1's which are required for decent upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. This works fairly well for now since about half the traffic
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers OT: Windows updates
That hospital should be running WSUS to manage their updates. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 6:52 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers OT: Windows updates ...and from many website's you will never get this. The traffic congestion on a 100 meg link can choke it down to less than 10 meg, with huge sites such as myspace, yahoo, and many others...not saying that it happens often. I host about 50 websites on a 3 meg connection for myself and others, and in 8 years have NEVER heard a single complaint from my webhosters. A 10 meg download from Chuck's customer to my web server will NEVER be realized. As Chuck says, the bandwidth test is on a server that the customer directly connects to across their wireless link, which is a true bandwidth check to that point. The truth is in the advertising...If he says you will get 10 meg to any place at any time, he might get busted for false adv. Not sure how he does it, but if it is worded right, he will get many more customers and no complaints...just cause of burstiness of web surfing. On another note, is their a way to cache or get a server closer to you for windows updates? I have a hospital on our network that has 60+ PC's on the inside. They are killing us with windows updates at certain times...like Service Pack 3...? Scott -- Original Message -- From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:06:15 -0600 Bigger number in the advertising and on your website gets the customer. We are truthful. The truth is, you will most likely see 10.2 Mbps any random time you choose to do a speed test. You will also get wide open throttle most of the time you are clicking around web sites and checking your email. DSL cannot do this. Most Comcast accounts cannot do this. Because we can do this, we get and keep customers. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Again, I have to say, up to 8Mbps is completely different than selling a true 8Mbps. I can sell an up to 8Mbps service using 802.11b equipment too. Maybe I'll start selling an up to 100Mbps service for the same price as all my other packages... ;) Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We sell up to 8Mbps on Canopy advantage without issues. Nearly all our customers are within a couple miles though and as long as they have less than a -76, they get full speed. Rarely do we have two customers doing full speed at the same time on the same sector. (Most we have on a sector is 50) Maybe we are luckier than most The main problem on Advantage (as well as other systems) is upload. However, Canopy QoS is good and even saturated links don't affect VoIP quality. We sell a small business 8/2 package and when you see one of them soaking upload for long periods and a couple customers running outbound P2P, you start to worry a little but we haven't had any complaints due to capacity. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Chuck, Not to rain on your parade but... I'm a little confused on how 10.2 mbps is possible w/ Canopy. Advantage series peak capacity is just for short range customers, and a large percentage of the capacity can be voided by by the farther out slower non-advantage CPEs. When Up/down rate ratios have to be pre-fined (for syncing) that limits the radio from using the ful capacity of the Radio. Its one of the big reasons that we chose Trango 8 years ago originally, so that it was infact possible to get full radio speed in one direction when it was available in low usage time, so we could quote higher speeds to business symetrical customers. Sure, if we consider 14mb real world advantage best case for Advantage series, use all advantage series CPE, and do a 70 / 30 download to upload, sure 10mbps peak downloads are possible for a single client, in that scenario. Provided that the WISP was fine with all other customers being 100% STARVED at the time the one customer was monopolizing the peak capacity. We tried that once, and it was a big mistake because it caused latency to sky rocket for all the other customers when they first attempted to use capacity, and the feel of the circuit because very bursty feeling. The short pauses made it feel like something was wrong with the circuit. TCP could not deal with it properly, it needs time to tune. Because of TCP's reaction, it actually translated to a slower experience than if we just gave customers half the speed. So My Points is Your concept of bursting a HIGH capacity for short periods is a sound
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
I agree but I didnt select the speed and price plans, I bought the company with these already in place. BUT everyone is complaining that 3Mbps isnt enough and I'm not keeping up! All they see is cable DSL commercials selling 10Mbps and 6Mbps respectively. Egads!!! -RickG On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have to? Most people don't need more than 1meg, and that's our most popular package for $39.95 per month (total, no modem rental fee, etc.). Why give away the farm if you don't have to? :) Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher speeds. Technically speaking, the download upload price is the same. From a cost standpoint, I allocate the download upload separately because I am forced to pay dearly ($1200/month) to ATT for my dual T1's which are required for decent upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. This works fairly well for now since about half the traffic is web browsing. When I bought this WISP there was no management, monitoring or reporting. I took care of the management monitoring and I'm working on the reporting. The best thing I've done is replace the StarOS firewall with Mikrotik and set up traffic priority. Whew! Lots of work. At any rate, I'm working on my upstream connection next. I really need to get the cost down. Thanks! -RickG On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, Yes, all of our packages are symmetrical speeds (same download and upload). So if they buy our 512k package, they get 512k down x 512k up all the time. They are not dedicated connections, but rather you get what you pay for connections. We still oversubscribe users on an AP, but only to the point where each AP is running around 60% capacity during peak times, thus leaving room for bursts, etc. We graph and monitor every single AP (over 200 of them) and every single user (bandwidth, packets, RSSI, etc.) so we always know what's happening on our network. We currently have three full OC-3 (155Mbps) dedicated connections to the backbone. On average, we pay $40/meg for bandwidth. Why is your upload price different than your download price? Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, Nice work! Therefore, you are selling dedicated bandwidth to all of your customers. In other words, if all your customers run speed test at the same time they will get what their plan allows. If you dont mind, I have a few questions: Is the above scenario true for upload speed as well as download speed? What are you paying for your upstream connection? What type of upstream connection do you have? I'd like to be there and I keep hoping cheap bandwidth comes my way. When you are paying $150/meg for download and $400/meg for upload, the business model is tough. -RickG BTW: I'd take this offlist if you prefer but I think this is a problem that many us us small WISP's face. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Every customer can get the speed they are paying for ANY time they run a speed test. We offer packages from 512k to 2.5meg for residential customers and they always get what they pay for (download AND upload, which is the same for all of our packages). Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, If I understand this correctly, you have at least 1Mbps or higher of bandwidth for every customer? -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We deliver what the customers pay for. If they purchase a 1Mbps package, they get 1Mbps 24x7 (with no monthly bit caps). Personally I have never liked the up to speed packages... it's like going to Walmart and buying milk. You can pay $3 for a full 1 gallon, or you can pay $2 for up to a gallon (without really knowing how much you are going to get, but it will be somewhere between nothing and a full gallon). Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Interesting subject - quality of service. I give 10 times better service than the cable and phone companys but this buys me nothing. People will leave you for as little as $5/month or a lousy $50 gift card. It kills me! -RickG On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing up to 4meg for $29.95 with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing up to 2meg, mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs than we can keep up with each month. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast giving away multi megabit starting at $15.95 - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have to? Most people don't need more than 1meg, and that's our most popular package for $39.95 per month (total, no modem rental fee, etc.). Why give away the farm if you don't have to? :) Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher speeds. Technically speaking, the download upload price is the same. From a cost standpoint, I allocate the download upload separately because I am forced to pay dearly ($1200/month) to ATT for my dual T1's which are required for decent upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. This works fairly well for now since about half the traffic is web browsing. When I bought this WISP there was no management, monitoring or reporting. I took care of the management monitoring and I'm working on the reporting. The best thing I've done is replace the StarOS firewall with Mikrotik and set up traffic priority. Whew! Lots of work. At any rate, I'm working on my upstream connection next. I really need to get the cost down. Thanks! -RickG On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, Yes, all of our packages are symmetrical speeds (same download and upload). So if they buy our 512k package, they get 512k down x 512k up all the time. They are not dedicated connections, but rather you get what you pay for connections. We still oversubscribe users on an AP, but only to the point where each AP is running around 60% capacity during peak times, thus leaving room for bursts, etc. We graph and monitor every single AP (over 200 of them) and every single user (bandwidth, packets, RSSI, etc.) so we always know what's happening on our network. We currently have three full OC-3 (155Mbps) dedicated connections to the backbone. On average, we pay $40/meg for bandwidth. Why is your upload price different than your download price? Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, Nice work! Therefore, you are selling dedicated bandwidth to all of your customers. In other words, if all your customers run speed test at the same time they will get what their plan allows. If you dont mind, I have a few questions: Is the above scenario true for upload speed as well as download speed? What are you paying for your upstream connection? What type of upstream connection do you have? I'd like to be there and I keep hoping cheap bandwidth comes my way. When you are paying $150/meg for download and $400/meg for upload, the business model is tough. -RickG BTW: I'd take this offlist if you prefer but I think this is a problem that many us us small WISP's face. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Every customer can get the speed they are paying for ANY time they run a speed test. We offer packages from 512k to 2.5meg for residential customers and they always get what they pay for (download AND upload, which is the same for all of our packages). Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, If I understand this correctly, you have at least 1Mbps or higher of bandwidth for every customer? -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We deliver what the customers pay for. If they purchase a 1Mbps package, they get 1Mbps 24x7 (with no monthly bit caps). Personally I have never liked the up to speed packages... it's like going to Walmart and buying milk. You can pay $3 for a full 1 gallon, or you can pay $2 for up to a gallon (without really knowing how
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Wow... so let's run some numbers (just for fun)... 20,000 subs x $30 = $600k / month x 12 months = $7,200,000 per year revenue. Based on normal business finances, gross profit is probably around 30% ($2,160,000) per year (because they have investment money, they don't have to lease or buy CPE, backhaul, etc. and it's only operating costs). Now the question is, what are the terms of their funding? The customer base is really only worth about $10 million... and I doubt they have $40 million in equipment already installed... so they are already deep "in the hole"... and based on these numbers, I don't see how it will improve? This looks like many of the local "dot-bomb" companies in my area that rounded up lots of money and then just lived off the money until it was gone... and then so were they... Travis Microserv John McDowell wrote: I just read where they received there third round of financing. Something over ten million which puts them somewhere in the 50 million range as a guess. Last I spoke with their CEO they were pushing 2 customers with an arpu of around $30. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 2, 2008, at 2:50 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes... I think Bridgemaxx has some issues to work out (especially with the economy the way it is now) and here's why. Honestly, I'm not sure what "space" they are trying to compete. They are using Alvarion's mobile WiMax (2.5ghz) product. We have service at our office from it and it's horrible. We are only about 1.5 miles from one of their towers and the best speed we have seen is 800k down x 400k up. Latency is horrible as well (usually around 100ms). In our area (population 51,000) they installed base stations on four towers. They used 18ghz Ceragon radios and created a "ring" around the city. So just the cost on the backhauls and Base stations is probably over $300,000. Then every single CPE is over $400. We are starting to see a lot of their radios have to be "professionally" installed (meaning a truck roll). I thought the whole idea was no truck roll? Seems to remove the "mobile" part of the service. Then they are charging $29.95 per month for service plus $4 per month for the modem rental. I'm not sure how they ever plan to break-even on their investment when they had to spend MILLIONS to buy the 2.5ghz license from the previous company ($7 million is the rumor). Then, they aren't truly mobile. If you stay within each city, you can get service by just plugging in the modem... but you can't drive down the freeway and get anything... so they seem to be in the middle between fixed wireless (WISP) and truly mobile (cell providers). My emails about a year ago indicated I was pretty sure they were in it for the "short haul"... meaning they would build it up enough to get someone like Clearwire or Sprint to come buy it. Now with everything else going on (economy, stock market, politics, mergers, etc.) I don't see that happening any time soon... so they may be in serious trouble shortly. Just my $.02 worth. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Found this letter about Bridgemaxx: Not that you care or this message will get to anyone with proper authority to do something ... Your service is getting overloaded and not usable at 224 West Central in Missoula Montana. It's not my set up because it is happening to everyone in the community. Your getting a bad name and your commercials are adding fuel to the fire. Last night the service was down and since I got a bill this morning I thought I would write and bitch about the terrible service. When there is a viable alternative in Missoula tons of customers will jump ship unless you do the right thing now. - Original Message - From: "Chuck McCown - 3" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: "Travis Johnson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing "up to 4meg" for $29.95 with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing "up to 2meg", mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs than we can keep up with each month. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast giving away multi megabit star
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
I told the guy if he wanted 1.5mbps round the clock that he needed to go buy a T1 line. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Kurt, I tell them that they need to consider a higher rate package with dedicated bandwidth rather than shared bandwidth. -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been one to follow the norm. And I get to put $50 in my pocket on every install, and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing up to 4meg for $29.95 with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing up to 2meg, mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs than we can keep up with each month. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast giving away multi megabit starting at $15.95 - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have to? Most people don't need more than 1meg, and that's our most popular package for $39.95 per month (total, no modem rental fee, etc.). Why give away the farm if you don't have to? :) Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher speeds. Technically speaking, the download upload price is the same. From a cost standpoint, I allocate the download upload separately because I am forced to pay dearly ($1200/month) to ATT for my dual T1's which are required for decent upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. This works fairly well for now since about half the traffic is web browsing. When I bought this WISP there was no management, monitoring or reporting. I took care of the management monitoring and I'm working on the reporting. The best thing I've done is replace the StarOS firewall with Mikrotik and set up traffic priority. Whew! Lots of work. At any rate, I'm working on my upstream connection next. I really need to get the cost down. Thanks! -RickG On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, Yes, all of our packages are symmetrical speeds (same download and upload). So if they buy our 512k package, they get 512k down x 512k up all the time. They are not dedicated connections, but rather you get what you pay for connections. We still oversubscribe users on an AP, but only to the point where each AP is running around 60% capacity during peak times, thus leaving room for bursts, etc. We graph and monitor every single AP (over 200 of them) and every single user (bandwidth, packets, RSSI, etc.) so we always know what's happening on our network. We currently have three full OC-3 (155Mbps) dedicated connections to the backbone. On average, we pay $40/meg for bandwidth. Why is your upload price different than your download price? Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, Nice work! Therefore, you are selling dedicated bandwidth to all of your customers. In other words, if all your customers run speed test at the same time they will get what
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Hi, We don't use DHCP. Every single customer gets a real, static IP address. We also a assign a static IP address to every radio (for management). When I posted the question a month ago about how to force an SM to connect to a specific AP on a tower, the only answer was color code. This isn't really an option, as that means the installer has to change the color code in the field. All of our current radios are setup and ready to connect to ANY tower and ANY AP on that tower without the installer doing anything in the field. And how does first level tech support even find the correct radio in the AP list for a customer on the phone? They have to scroll through 160 people to find them by MAC address? Yes, Canopy is a slower radio in today's world. 14Mbps of total throughput on a 20mhz channel is SLOW. Using Mikrotik I can get 30Mbps (double the speed) on the same channel size. Or I can use a 10mhz channel and get 15Mbps. And all these speeds can be delivered via upload or download or any combination, I don't have to set a specific percentage of up/down. And how do you guarantee 7ms latency? What happens if a customer gets 8ms? And how do they test that measurement? And what happens when a customer completely clobbers an AP and 160 customers are getting 20ms latency? Or you have interference from a new provider and all those people get 100ms latency? Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been one to follow the norm. And I get to put $50 in my pocket on every install, and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing up to 4meg for $29.95 with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing up to 2meg, mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs than we can keep up with each month. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast giving away multi megabit starting at $15.95 - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have to? Most people don't need more than 1meg, and that's our most popular package for $39.95 per month (total, no modem rental fee, etc.). Why give away the farm if you don't have to? :) Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher speeds. Technically speaking, the download upload price is the same. From a cost standpoint, I allocate the download upload separately because I am forced to pay dearly ($1200/month) to ATT for my dual T1's which are required for decent upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers OT: Windows updates
They need WSUS installed on their site http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/wsus/default.aspx John Thomas Scottie Arnett wrote: ...and from many website's you will never get this. The traffic congestion on a 100 meg link can choke it down to less than 10 meg, with huge sites such as myspace, yahoo, and many others...not saying that it happens often. I host about 50 websites on a 3 meg connection for myself and others, and in 8 years have NEVER heard a single complaint from my webhosters. A 10 meg download from Chuck's customer to my web server will NEVER be realized. As Chuck says, the bandwidth test is on a server that the customer directly connects to across their wireless link, which is a true bandwidth check to that point. The truth is in the advertising...If he says you will get 10 meg to any place at any time, he might get busted for false adv. Not sure how he does it, but if it is worded right, he will get many more customers and no complaints...just cause of burstiness of web surfing. On another note, is their a way to cache or get a server closer to you for windows updates? I have a hospital on our network that has 60+ PC's on the inside. They are killing us with windows updates at certain times...like Service Pack 3...? Scott -- Original Message -- From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:06:15 -0600 Bigger number in the advertising and on your website gets the customer. We are truthful. The truth is, you will most likely see 10.2 Mbps any random time you choose to do a speed test. You will also get wide open throttle most of the time you are clicking around web sites and checking your email. DSL cannot do this. Most Comcast accounts cannot do this. Because we can do this, we get and keep customers. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Again, I have to say, up to 8Mbps is completely different than selling a true 8Mbps. I can sell an up to 8Mbps service using 802.11b equipment too. Maybe I'll start selling an up to 100Mbps service for the same price as all my other packages... ;) Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We sell up to 8Mbps on Canopy advantage without issues. Nearly all our customers are within a couple miles though and as long as they have less than a -76, they get full speed. Rarely do we have two customers doing full speed at the same time on the same sector. (Most we have on a sector is 50) Maybe we are luckier than most The main problem on Advantage (as well as other systems) is upload. However, Canopy QoS is good and even saturated links don't affect VoIP quality. We sell a small business 8/2 package and when you see one of them soaking upload for long periods and a couple customers running outbound P2P, you start to worry a little but we haven't had any complaints due to capacity. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Chuck, Not to rain on your parade but... I'm a little confused on how 10.2 mbps is possible w/ Canopy. Advantage series peak capacity is just for short range customers, and a large percentage of the capacity can be voided by by the farther out slower non-advantage CPEs. When Up/down rate ratios have to be pre-fined (for syncing) that limits the radio from using the ful capacity of the Radio. Its one of the big reasons that we chose Trango 8 years ago originally, so that it was infact possible to get full radio speed in one direction when it was available in low usage time, so we could quote higher speeds to business symetrical customers. Sure, if we consider 14mb real world advantage best case for Advantage series, use all advantage series CPE, and do a 70 / 30 download to upload, sure 10mbps peak downloads are possible for a single client, in that scenario. Provided that the WISP was fine with all other customers being 100% STARVED at the time the one customer was monopolizing the peak capacity. We tried that once, and it was a big mistake because it caused latency to sky rocket for all the other customers when they first attempted to use capacity, and the feel of the circuit because very bursty feeling. The short pauses made it feel like something was wrong with the circuit. TCP could not deal with it properly, it needs time to tune. Because of TCP's reaction, it actually translated to a slower experience than if we just gave customers half the speed. So My Points is Your concept of bursting a HIGH capacity for short periods is a sound concept, provided that you never let one cusomer have ALL your bandwdith. Headroom is needed. We found that if we let our customers burst to half the radio full capacity, we could use the same technique
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Our front end tech support only needs the phone number or account number to instantly find and edit every detail about the customer. No scrolling, no nothing. This includes AP, SM, IP, LUID etc. That is no problem at all. You can manage SM/AP pairing with color codes or frequencies. Since this is not 802.11 latency is guaranteed by the protocol. And we have high priority BW on each AP for Voip. Voip on our system is form fit and function equivalent to LEC POTS service. Quality, LNP, E-911 etc. I have a hard time accepting that you can do that on 802.11 gear. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Hi, We don't use DHCP. Every single customer gets a real, static IP address. We also a assign a static IP address to every radio (for management). When I posted the question a month ago about how to force an SM to connect to a specific AP on a tower, the only answer was color code. This isn't really an option, as that means the installer has to change the color code in the field. All of our current radios are setup and ready to connect to ANY tower and ANY AP on that tower without the installer doing anything in the field. And how does first level tech support even find the correct radio in the AP list for a customer on the phone? They have to scroll through 160 people to find them by MAC address? Yes, Canopy is a slower radio in today's world. 14Mbps of total throughput on a 20mhz channel is SLOW. Using Mikrotik I can get 30Mbps (double the speed) on the same channel size. Or I can use a 10mhz channel and get 15Mbps. And all these speeds can be delivered via upload or download or any combination, I don't have to set a specific percentage of up/down. And how do you guarantee 7ms latency? What happens if a customer gets 8ms? And how do they test that measurement? And what happens when a customer completely clobbers an AP and 160 customers are getting 20ms latency? Or you have interference from a new provider and all those people get 100ms latency? Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been one to follow the norm. And I get to put $50 in my pocket on every install, and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing up to 4meg for $29.95 with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing up to 2meg, mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs than we can keep up with each month. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast giving away multi megabit starting at $15.95 - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
snmp is a wonderful thing... - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Our front end tech support only needs the phone number or account number to instantly find and edit every detail about the customer. No scrolling, no nothing. This includes AP, SM, IP, LUID etc. That is no problem at all. You can manage SM/AP pairing with color codes or frequencies. Since this is not 802.11 latency is guaranteed by the protocol. And we have high priority BW on each AP for Voip. Voip on our system is form fit and function equivalent to LEC POTS service. Quality, LNP, E-911 etc. I have a hard time accepting that you can do that on 802.11 gear. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Hi, We don't use DHCP. Every single customer gets a real, static IP address. We also a assign a static IP address to every radio (for management). When I posted the question a month ago about how to force an SM to connect to a specific AP on a tower, the only answer was color code. This isn't really an option, as that means the installer has to change the color code in the field. All of our current radios are setup and ready to connect to ANY tower and ANY AP on that tower without the installer doing anything in the field. And how does first level tech support even find the correct radio in the AP list for a customer on the phone? They have to scroll through 160 people to find them by MAC address? Yes, Canopy is a slower radio in today's world. 14Mbps of total throughput on a 20mhz channel is SLOW. Using Mikrotik I can get 30Mbps (double the speed) on the same channel size. Or I can use a 10mhz channel and get 15Mbps. And all these speeds can be delivered via upload or download or any combination, I don't have to set a specific percentage of up/down. And how do you guarantee 7ms latency? What happens if a customer gets 8ms? And how do they test that measurement? And what happens when a customer completely clobbers an AP and 160 customers are getting 20ms latency? Or you have interference from a new provider and all those people get 100ms latency? Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been one to follow the norm. And I get to put $50 in my pocket on every install, and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing up to 4meg for $29.95 with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing up to 2meg, mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs than we can keep up with each month. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
128-160/AP -= that's excellent. What are you setting sustained to? __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 8:29 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been one to follow the norm. And I get to put $50 in my pocket on every install, and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing up to 4meg for $29.95 with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing up to 2meg, mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs than we can keep up with each month. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast giving away multi megabit starting at $15.95 - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have to? Most people don't need more than 1meg, and that's our most popular package for $39.95 per month (total, no modem rental fee, etc.). Why give away the farm if you don't have to? :) Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher speeds. Technically speaking, the download upload price is the same. From a cost standpoint, I allocate the download upload separately because I am forced to pay dearly ($1200/month) to ATT for my dual T1's which are required for decent upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. This works fairly well for now since about half the traffic is web browsing. When I bought this WISP there was no management, monitoring or reporting. I took care of the management monitoring and I'm working on the reporting. The best thing I've done is replace the StarOS firewall with Mikrotik and set up traffic priority. Whew! Lots of work. At any rate, I'm working on my upstream connection next. I really need to get the cost down. Thanks! -RickG On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, Yes, all of our packages are symmetrical speeds (same download and upload). So if they buy our 512k package, they get 512k down x 512k up all the time. They are not dedicated connections, but rather you get what you pay for connections. We still oversubscribe users on an AP, but only to the point where each AP is running around 60% capacity during peak times, thus leaving room for bursts, etc. We graph and monitor every single AP (over 200 of them) and every single user (bandwidth, packets, RSSI, etc.) so we always know what's happening on our network. We currently have three full OC-3 (155Mbps) dedicated connections
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
160 is an absolute upper max. Once they hit 128 we try to add an AP in that area. But they do work will with 128. Not sure what the settings are these days. I don't get into that detail like I once did. Perhaps Bryan will answer. - Original Message - From: Jerry Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers 128-160/AP -= that's excellent. What are you setting sustained to? __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 8:29 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been one to follow the norm. And I get to put $50 in my pocket on every install, and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing up to 4meg for $29.95 with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing up to 2meg, mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs than we can keep up with each month. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast giving away multi megabit starting at $15.95 - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have to? Most people don't need more than 1meg, and that's our most popular package for $39.95 per month (total, no modem rental fee, etc.). Why give away the farm if you don't have to? :) Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher speeds. Technically speaking, the download upload price is the same. From a cost standpoint, I allocate the download upload separately because I am forced to pay dearly ($1200/month) to ATT for my dual T1's which are required for decent upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps connection through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. This works fairly well for now since about half the traffic is web browsing. When I bought this WISP there was no management, monitoring or reporting. I took care of the management monitoring and I'm working on the reporting. The best thing I've done is replace the StarOS firewall with Mikrotik and set up traffic priority. Whew! Lots of work. At any rate, I'm working on my upstream connection next. I really need to get the cost down. Thanks! -RickG On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick, Yes, all of our packages are symmetrical speeds (same download and upload). So if they buy our 512k package, they get 512k down x 512k
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
I'm with Travis on this, with the exception of using StarOS instead of Mikrotik. It is nice to have a set of standard, mature tools such as radius, cbq/iptable rules and standard, non-vendor specific hardware to work with instead of having to use a limited, proprietary system limited to a single vendor. I've deployed/consulted on 802.11 a/b/g networks representing 8000+ CPE units and it can be made to work just fine as long as it is managed properly. Travis is a pro, and he has the experience to design his network in such a way as to maximize the performance of his equipment. There are many others out there having the same success. FWIW, I believe the most logical next step is to start moving heavy usage customers over to 3.65 WiMAX gear starting next spring. I think we are near the threshold of what is going to be possible with unlicensed equipment - barring some kind of amazing breakthrough. I foresee a need to deploy smaller and smaller cells to maintain the desired performance level. It helps to have 10mhz channel sizes available to maximize the utilization of existing spectrum, but even that is starting to get awfully crowded. Whitespaces sure would help. I spent the last two years putting up 802.11a based APs across my entire service area and migrating customers from 2.4 to them to get the higher ARPU from faster speeds and VOIP service. I foresee spending the next two years deploying licensed backhauls and 3.65 APs starting with the high traffic areas and working out to the fringes. Its the neverending story. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, We don't use DHCP. Every single customer gets a real, static IP address. We also a assign a static IP address to every radio (for management). When I posted the question a month ago about how to force an SM to connect to a specific AP on a tower, the only answer was color code. This isn't really an option, as that means the installer has to change the color code in the field. All of our current radios are setup and ready to connect to ANY tower and ANY AP on that tower without the installer doing anything in the field. And how does first level tech support even find the correct radio in the AP list for a customer on the phone? They have to scroll through 160 people to find them by MAC address? Yes, Canopy is a slower radio in today's world. 14Mbps of total throughput on a 20mhz channel is SLOW. Using Mikrotik I can get 30Mbps (double the speed) on the same channel size. Or I can use a 10mhz channel and get 15Mbps. And all these speeds can be delivered via upload or download or any combination, I don't have to set a specific percentage of up/down. And how do you guarantee 7ms latency? What happens if a customer gets 8ms? And how do they test that measurement? And what happens when a customer completely clobbers an AP and 160 customers are getting 20ms latency? Or you have interference from a new provider and all those people get 100ms latency? Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz) for less than $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide channels... and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been one to follow the norm. And I get to put $50 in my pocket on every install, and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. Now, if you were using Canopy your
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Canopy is rolling out RADIUS for release 10. Can't get much more standard than that. We never get interference on Canopy. 5000+ units deployed. Hardly ever a problem. Can the 802.11 folks make that claim? We do have 3.65 but it is no panacea. I would rather have a canopy 430 or even 400 than the 3.65. - Original Message - From: Matt Larsen - Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I'm with Travis on this, with the exception of using StarOS instead of Mikrotik. It is nice to have a set of standard, mature tools such as radius, cbq/iptable rules and standard, non-vendor specific hardware to work with instead of having to use a limited, proprietary system limited to a single vendor. I've deployed/consulted on 802.11 a/b/g networks representing 8000+ CPE units and it can be made to work just fine as long as it is managed properly. Travis is a pro, and he has the experience to design his network in such a way as to maximize the performance of his equipment. There are many others out there having the same success. FWIW, I believe the most logical next step is to start moving heavy usage customers over to 3.65 WiMAX gear starting next spring. I think we are near the threshold of what is going to be possible with unlicensed equipment - barring some kind of amazing breakthrough. I foresee a need to deploy smaller and smaller cells to maintain the desired performance level. It helps to have 10mhz channel sizes available to maximize the utilization of existing spectrum, but even that is starting to get awfully crowded. Whitespaces sure would help. I spent the last two years putting up 802.11a based APs across my entire service area and migrating customers from 2.4 to them to get the higher ARPU from faster speeds and VOIP service. I foresee spending the next two years deploying licensed backhauls and 3.65 APs starting with the high traffic areas and working out to the fringes. Its the neverending story. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, We don't use DHCP. Every single customer gets a real, static IP address. We also a assign a static IP address to every radio (for management). When I posted the question a month ago about how to force an SM to connect to a specific AP on a tower, the only answer was color code. This isn't really an option, as that means the installer has to change the color code in the field. All of our current radios are setup and ready to connect to ANY tower and ANY AP on that tower without the installer doing anything in the field. And how does first level tech support even find the correct radio in the AP list for a customer on the phone? They have to scroll through 160 people to find them by MAC address? Yes, Canopy is a slower radio in today's world. 14Mbps of total throughput on a 20mhz channel is SLOW. Using Mikrotik I can get 30Mbps (double the speed) on the same channel size. Or I can use a 10mhz channel and get 15Mbps. And all these speeds can be delivered via upload or download or any combination, I don't have to set a specific percentage of up/down. And how do you guarantee 7ms latency? What happens if a customer gets 8ms? And how do they test that measurement? And what happens when a customer completely clobbers an AP and 160 customers are getting 20ms latency? Or you have interference from a new provider and all those people get 100ms latency? Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to connect to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are several non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have 5000 subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps burst. Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do with anyone else. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and once about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network management (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM instead of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer connects to without having to buy their software, etc. All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are using just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, or 5.8ghz
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
On Sun, 2 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Can the 802.11 folks make that claim? Next comes the Hitler? Take it offlist, guys. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Naw, we'll just take it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Not much canopy bashing there... - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers On Sun, 2 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Can the 802.11 folks make that claim? Next comes the Hitler? Take it offlist, guys. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
I have done that as well... then sold them a 't1 replacement' for $300/m... half the cost of a t1 out here... Kurt Fankhauser wrote: I told the guy if he wanted 1.5mbps round the clock that he needed to go buy a T1 line. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Kurt, I tell them that they need to consider a higher rate package with dedicated bandwidth rather than shared bandwidth. -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] heavy usage customers
Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
The agreement that most ISPs use states something like we can limit or change bandwidth as is necessary deemed by us, you pay for the package name rather then the value printed upon signing the agreement. Basically you sell small/medium/large packages. If they pay for the small package and at the time they start it is 1MB but you deem 1MB too much, you drop it to 512k. If they complain it is not enough bandwidth they a) go back to dial-up or b) pay for what they want. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Canopy... - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
How does Canopy fix a customer satisfaction problem? If they are used to getting 5Mbps download speed and you have to cap them at 1Mbps, it doesn't really matter what platform you are using. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Canopy... - Original Message - From: "Kurt Fankhauser" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
http://radius.odessaoffice.com/iptrack. We just track the bits they use. If it's a heavy user they end up with a higher bill. That either fixes my problem, or they go away and screw up someone else's network. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 8:59 AM Subject: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Our Canopy customers are used to getting 10.2 Mbps download speed. If the start a huge file transfer they get wide open throttle for a while (that while depends on their rate plan) then they get throttled until that particular file transfer is over. Once they stop, wide open throttle again. They love it. The power users call in and upgrade their rate plan all the time. Excellent up sell opportunities with zero effort. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers How does Canopy fix a customer satisfaction problem? If they are used to getting 5Mbps download speed and you have to cap them at 1Mbps, it doesn't really matter what platform you are using. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Canopy... - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
I dunno, that is pretty boring compared to the rest of the schedule. I am interested in hearing from the Gods of Motorola more than anyone else. Julian from Orthogon gets to come this year too. - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers I'd like to see your 10.2Mbps plan as a lighting talk at Animal Farm Chuck... interesting fuel for thought :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 12:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Our Canopy customers are used to getting 10.2 Mbps download speed. If the start a huge file transfer they get wide open throttle for a while (that while depends on their rate plan) then they get throttled until that particular file transfer is over. Once they stop, wide open throttle again. They love it. The power users call in and upgrade their rate plan all the time. Excellent up sell opportunities with zero effort. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers How does Canopy fix a customer satisfaction problem? If they are used to getting 5Mbps download speed and you have to cap them at 1Mbps, it doesn't really matter what platform you are using. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Canopy... - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Our Canopy customers are used to getting 10.2 Mbps download speed. If the start a huge file transfer they get wide open throttle for a while (that while depends on their rate plan) then they get throttled until that particular file transfer is over. Once they stop, wide open throttle again. They love it. The power users call in and upgrade their rate plan all the time. Excellent up sell opportunities with zero effort. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers How does Canopy fix a customer satisfaction problem? If they are used to getting 5Mbps download speed and you have to cap them at 1Mbps, it doesn't really matter what platform you are using. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Canopy... - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
, 64k windowsize at 80ms, will only allow about a 3mbps transfer to occur). Don't misunderstand me, I'm not bashing Canopy... We have actually started to use some Canopy Advantage series on our shorter range sectors, where verticle pol was free. (because we can find them on EBAY cheap, with all the Muni projects going south). I'm actually very impressed with their speed and quality of RF. But I'm just sharing what we've learned with Bandwidth management, since we've been doing it since 2001. Maybe the Canopy 400series, can deliver the higher throughputs ? I heard Motorolla was planning on making a 5.8G model of teh 400 series? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Our Canopy customers are used to getting 10.2 Mbps download speed. If the start a huge file transfer they get wide open throttle for a while (that while depends on their rate plan) then they get throttled until that particular file transfer is over. Once they stop, wide open throttle again. They love it. The power users call in and upgrade their rate plan all the time. Excellent up sell opportunities with zero effort. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers How does Canopy fix a customer satisfaction problem? If they are used to getting 5Mbps download speed and you have to cap them at 1Mbps, it doesn't really matter what platform you are using. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Canopy... - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
yeah, thats called a month to month contract. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers The agreement that most ISPs use states something like we can limit or change bandwidth as is necessary deemed by us, you pay for the package name rather then the value printed upon signing the agreement. Basically you sell small/medium/large packages. If they pay for the small package and at the time they start it is 1MB but you deem 1MB too much, you drop it to 512k. If they complain it is not enough bandwidth they a) go back to dial-up or b) pay for what they want. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Canopy... - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Thats interesting feedback to hear. However, it also supports my core points... that you do not give 100% of the capacity to any one user. (8 out of 10mb still allows some headroom for TCP and Bandwidth shapers to self-tune) PS. Are you using the Canopy firmware to limit the customer speed, or limiting it with a third party appliance/software, or both? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers We sell up to 8Mbps on Canopy advantage without issues. Nearly all our customers are within a couple miles though and as long as they have less than a -76, they get full speed. Rarely do we have two customers doing full speed at the same time on the same sector. (Most we have on a sector is 50) Maybe we are luckier than most The main problem on Advantage (as well as other systems) is upload. However, Canopy QoS is good and even saturated links don't affect VoIP quality. We sell a small business 8/2 package and when you see one of them soaking upload for long periods and a couple customers running outbound P2P, you start to worry a little but we haven't had any complaints due to capacity. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Chuck, Not to rain on your parade but... I'm a little confused on how 10.2 mbps is possible w/ Canopy. Advantage series peak capacity is just for short range customers, and a large percentage of the capacity can be voided by by the farther out slower non-advantage CPEs. When Up/down rate ratios have to be pre-fined (for syncing) that limits the radio from using the ful capacity of the Radio. Its one of the big reasons that we chose Trango 8 years ago originally, so that it was infact possible to get full radio speed in one direction when it was available in low usage time, so we could quote higher speeds to business symetrical customers. Sure, if we consider 14mb real world advantage best case for Advantage series, use all advantage series CPE, and do a 70 / 30 download to upload, sure 10mbps peak downloads are possible for a single client, in that scenario. Provided that the WISP was fine with all other customers being 100% STARVED at the time the one customer was monopolizing the peak capacity. We tried that once, and it was a big mistake because it caused latency to sky rocket for all the other customers when they first attempted to use capacity, and the feel of the circuit because very bursty feeling. The short pauses made it feel like something was wrong with the circuit. TCP could not deal with it properly, it needs time to tune. Because of TCP's reaction, it actually translated to a slower experience than if we just gave customers half the speed. So My Points is Your concept of bursting a HIGH capacity for short periods is a sound concept, provided that you never let one cusomer have ALL your bandwdith. Headroom is needed. We found that if we let our customers burst to half the radio full capacity, we could use the same technique sucessfully because all the other subs were NEVER starved from bandwidth. We tried pushing the limits, such as allowing 7-8mb out of the 10mb, but it was to risky to do that because there were times when the full 10mbps was not achieve, such as when link quality degraded and retransmission occured do to RF packetloss, or when small packets were being used instead of pull packet size. Customers would suffer with the effects of non bandwdith shaping. There was also some issues with how well bandwdith shaping worked on Intel systems at 10mbps, as 10mbps speeds is about the peak speed before it exceed Intel's interupt clock limits of 100 ticks per second, nor was common Fair Weighted Queuing method able to be operation simultanoeus to trying to be used with Burst bucket type queuing. (Unless you aren't using Intel) So if we have a 10mbps HDX radio, we would sell peak 5 mbps services, and this would allow us to deliver good non-bursty performance without delays, and let us acheive high over subscription rates. And if we had a FDX imulated radio, that downloaded at 10mbps, again 5mbps would be the peak speed we allowed in our bursting. To keep it Real, With Canopy Advantage series, I'd highly recommend to WISPs that they do not commit to offer peak speeds above 5mbps per customer. It can result in severe degration at some customers sites that could be going on, and the WISP never really know it if they weren't sitting in front of the end user computers experiencing exactly what the end user was experienceing. And if you don't believe me, and want to push the limits, maybe 7mbps, but anything above that... its getting risky. That is provided that you'd be advertising
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
I think you meant to say up to 10.2Mbps download speed. There is no way you are delivering 10.2Mbps to more than two customers at the same time off a single AP. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Our Canopy customers are used to getting 10.2 Mbps download speed. If the start a huge file transfer they get wide open throttle for a while (that while depends on their rate plan) then they get throttled until that particular file transfer is over. Once they stop, wide open throttle again. They love it. The power users call in and upgrade their rate plan all the time. Excellent up sell opportunities with zero effort. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers How does Canopy fix a customer satisfaction problem? If they are used to getting 5Mbps download speed and you have to cap them at 1Mbps, it doesn't really matter what platform you are using. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Canopy... - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Our Canopy radios are connected to a Mikrotik for traffic shaping and routing at each tower. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you meant to say up to 10.2Mbps download speed. There is no way you are delivering 10.2Mbps to more than two customers at the same time off a single AP. ;) Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Our Canopy customers are used to getting 10.2 Mbps download speed. If the start a huge file transfer they get wide open throttle for a while (that while depends on their rate plan) then they get throttled until that particular file transfer is over. Once they stop, wide open throttle again. They love it. The power users call in and upgrade their rate plan all the time. Excellent up sell opportunities with zero effort. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers How does Canopy fix a customer satisfaction problem? If they are used to getting 5Mbps download speed and you have to cap them at 1Mbps, it doesn't really matter what platform you are using. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Canopy... - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
users to use to test their speeds. Its darn near impossible to get a full 10mbps speed test result from these test sites over a wireless nework, and much easier to achieve a 5mbps test, do to the distance, windowsize, latency variables that can effect TCP's real world throughput. (For example, 64k windowsize at 80ms, will only allow about a 3mbps transfer to occur). Don't misunderstand me, I'm not bashing Canopy... We have actually started to use some Canopy Advantage series on our shorter range sectors, where verticle pol was free. (because we can find them on EBAY cheap, with all the Muni projects going south). I'm actually very impressed with their speed and quality of RF. But I'm just sharing what we've learned with Bandwidth management, since we've been doing it since 2001. Maybe the Canopy 400series, can deliver the higher throughputs ? I heard Motorolla was planning on making a 5.8G model of teh 400 series? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Chuck McCown - 3" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Our Canopy customers are used to getting 10.2 Mbps download speed. If the start a huge file transfer they get wide open throttle for a while (that while depends on their rate plan) then they get throttled until that particular file transfer is over. Once they stop, wide open throttle again. They love it. The power users call in and upgrade their rate plan all the time. Excellent up sell opportunities with zero effort. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers How does Canopy fix a customer satisfaction problem? If they are used to getting 5Mbps download speed and you have to cap them at 1Mbps, it doesn't really matter what platform you are using. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Canopy... - Original Message - From: "Kurt Fankhauser" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: w
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers OT: Windows updates
...and from many website's you will never get this. The traffic congestion on a 100 meg link can choke it down to less than 10 meg, with huge sites such as myspace, yahoo, and many others...not saying that it happens often. I host about 50 websites on a 3 meg connection for myself and others, and in 8 years have NEVER heard a single complaint from my webhosters. A 10 meg download from Chuck's customer to my web server will NEVER be realized. As Chuck says, the bandwidth test is on a server that the customer directly connects to across their wireless link, which is a true bandwidth check to that point. The truth is in the advertising...If he says you will get 10 meg to any place at any time, he might get busted for false adv. Not sure how he does it, but if it is worded right, he will get many more customers and no complaints...just cause of burstiness of web surfing. On another note, is their a way to cache or get a server closer to you for windows updates? I have a hospital on our network that has 60+ PC's on the inside. They are killing us with windows updates at certain times...like Service Pack 3...? Scott -- Original Message -- From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:06:15 -0600 Bigger number in the advertising and on your website gets the customer. We are truthful. The truth is, you will most likely see 10.2 Mbps any random time you choose to do a speed test. You will also get wide open throttle most of the time you are clicking around web sites and checking your email. DSL cannot do this. Most Comcast accounts cannot do this. Because we can do this, we get and keep customers. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Again, I have to say, up to 8Mbps is completely different than selling a true 8Mbps. I can sell an up to 8Mbps service using 802.11b equipment too. Maybe I'll start selling an up to 100Mbps service for the same price as all my other packages... ;) Travis Microserv [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We sell up to 8Mbps on Canopy advantage without issues. Nearly all our customers are within a couple miles though and as long as they have less than a -76, they get full speed. Rarely do we have two customers doing full speed at the same time on the same sector. (Most we have on a sector is 50) Maybe we are luckier than most The main problem on Advantage (as well as other systems) is upload. However, Canopy QoS is good and even saturated links don't affect VoIP quality. We sell a small business 8/2 package and when you see one of them soaking upload for long periods and a couple customers running outbound P2P, you start to worry a little but we haven't had any complaints due to capacity. On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Chuck, Not to rain on your parade but... I'm a little confused on how 10.2 mbps is possible w/ Canopy. Advantage series peak capacity is just for short range customers, and a large percentage of the capacity can be voided by by the farther out slower non-advantage CPEs. When Up/down rate ratios have to be pre-fined (for syncing) that limits the radio from using the ful capacity of the Radio. Its one of the big reasons that we chose Trango 8 years ago originally, so that it was infact possible to get full radio speed in one direction when it was available in low usage time, so we could quote higher speeds to business symetrical customers. Sure, if we consider 14mb real world advantage best case for Advantage series, use all advantage series CPE, and do a 70 / 30 download to upload, sure 10mbps peak downloads are possible for a single client, in that scenario. Provided that the WISP was fine with all other customers being 100% STARVED at the time the one customer was monopolizing the peak capacity. We tried that once, and it was a big mistake because it caused latency to sky rocket for all the other customers when they first attempted to use capacity, and the feel of the circuit because very bursty feeling. The short pauses made it feel like something was wrong with the circuit. TCP could not deal with it properly, it needs time to tune. Because of TCP's reaction, it actually translated to a slower experience than if we just gave customers half the speed. So My Points is Your concept of bursting a HIGH capacity for short periods is a sound concept, provided that you never let one cusomer have ALL your bandwdith. Headroom is needed. We found that if we let our customers burst to half the radio full capacity, we could use the same technique sucessfully because all the other subs were NEVER starved from bandwidth. We tried pushing the limits, such as allowing 7-8mb out of the 10mb, but it was to risky to do that because there were times when
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers OT: Windows updates
Scottie Arnett wrote: On another note, is their a way to cache or get a server closer to you for windows updates? I have a hospital on our network that has 60+ PC's on the inside. They are killing us with windows updates at certain times...like Service Pack 3...? http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/wsus/default.aspx might be of use. You would also need to change the DNS record for windowsupdate.microsoft.com that you present to your customers to hit your local server. As to the legal or technical implications (maybe update signatures or something) I can't speak to them. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Kurt, I tell them that they need to consider a higher rate package with dedicated bandwidth rather than shared bandwidth. -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Tom DeReggi wrote: However, it also supports my core points... that you do not give 100% of the capacity to any one user. (8 out of 10mb still allows some headroom for TCP and Bandwidth shapers to self-tune) You actually can permit the full 10Mb/s bursts under canopy. As long as the Canopy AP is the bottleneck, it does a really good job of sharing the bandwidth among the users. And, it prioritizes ACK on the return path as well, so it helps performance there as well. The other piece that Chuck didn't mention was that their CIR is set much lower. That is, you get 10.2Mb/s long enough to download most web pages, and complete most speed tests, but you can't suck it down forever. In short, you are allocating say 2Mb/s (or even less) to that customer, but allowing them to store up the ability to download at 10.2.So, in reality, it is quite impossible for a single customer to consume the entire AP for any meaningful length of time. -forrest WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
actually started to use some Canopy Advantage series on our shorter range sectors, where verticle pol was free. (because we can find them on EBAY cheap, with all the Muni projects going south). I'm actually very impressed with their speed and quality of RF. But I'm just sharing what we've learned with Bandwidth management, since we've been doing it since 2001. Maybe the Canopy 400series, can deliver the higher throughputs ? I heard Motorolla was planning on making a 5.8G model of teh 400 series? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Our Canopy customers are used to getting 10.2 Mbps download speed. If the start a huge file transfer they get wide open throttle for a while (that while depends on their rate plan) then they get throttled until that particular file transfer is over. Once they stop, wide open throttle again. They love it. The power users call in and upgrade their rate plan all the time. Excellent up sell opportunities with zero effort. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers How does Canopy fix a customer satisfaction problem? If they are used to getting 5Mbps download speed and you have to cap them at 1Mbps, it doesn't really matter what platform you are using. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Canopy... - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: [WISPA] heavy usage customers Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers
Every customer can get the speed they are paying for ANY time they run a speed test. We offer packages from 512k to 2.5meg for residential customers and they always get what they pay for (download AND upload, which is the same for all of our packages). Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, If I understand this correctly, you have at least 1Mbps or higher of bandwidth for every customer? -RickG On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We deliver what the customers pay for. If they purchase a 1Mbps package, they get 1Mbps 24x7 (with no monthly bit caps). Personally I have never liked the "up to" speed packages... it's like going to Walmart and buying milk. You can pay $3 for a full 1 gallon, or you can pay $2 for "up to" a gallon (without really knowing how much you are going to get, but it will be somewhere between nothing and a full gallon). Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth that you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. And what do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down speed. (they don't know your throttling them though) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
