Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Kristy McClain]

Anthony,
 
My favorite-- its a date.  k


--- On Wed, 2/2/11, Anthony Wu  wrote:


From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 7:58 PM


  








Kristy,
 
I would like to share your drink. How about Mao Tai (60%), instead of the 
boring Jack Daniel.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 3/2/11, Kristy McClain  wrote:


From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 3 February, 2011, 10:35 AM


  






 
This sounds right to me.  Now I really need a drink.  ~ k


--- On Wed, 2/2/11, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:


From: Chris Austin-Lane 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 6:53 PM


  

Seems to me that the problem isn't acting in a wholesome fashion, but the 
trying to be wholesome.   


You are already wholesome, you don't need to "try" or "strive" or "purify" or 
whatever to be wholesome.  


As far as actions, the key there is in the moment, how are you acting.  Far 
from being a help, trying to be wholesome is more likely to make you miss 
seeing the unwholesome parts of your own reality and thereby become more likely 
to be blind to the harm you are causing.  


--Chris


On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Kristy McClain  wrote:









Hi Bill,
 
I agree.  Lets get drunk and party.  ~ k



--- On Wed, 2/2/11, Bill!  wrote:



From: Bill! 

Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:05 PM 





  

ED,

I disagree - not becuase I want to discourage 'wholesome' behaviour, but 
because I don't want anyone to beleive that acting in any certain way (even in 
what the person believes is a 'wholesome' way) will contribute to the 
realization of Buddha Nature.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Bill,
> 
> Whether the number of steps in the Eightfold noble path is 8 or 800 is
> not relevant. Whether Zen is a subset of Buddhism or not is a non-issue.
> And, you may use the qualifier 'right' or 'wholesome' or something else.
> 
> The point is that in addition to concentration meditation and
> shikantaza, wholesome motivation, and wholesome thought, speech and
> conduct are either necessary for or will greatly facilitate the
> realization of Buddha Nature.
> 
> How wholesome motivation and wholesome behavior are cultivated in a
> zenist is the zenist's choice. Buddhism offers a variety of practices to
> achieve these two ends.
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > ED,
> >
> > The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't
> > consider
> > Zen a subset of Buddhism. First of all to assert there are 8 items
> > of conduct such as this borders on hubris. Also to proceed all of them
> > with
> > a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that
> > characterizes most religions.
> >
> > Bill
>
















  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Anthony Wu]

Kristy,
 
I would like to share your drink. How about Mao Tai (60%), instead of the 
boring Jack Daniel.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 3/2/11, Kristy McClain  wrote:


From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 3 February, 2011, 10:35 AM


  








 
This sounds right to me.  Now I really need a drink.  ~ k


--- On Wed, 2/2/11, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:


From: Chris Austin-Lane 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 6:53 PM


  

Seems to me that the problem isn't acting in a wholesome fashion, but the 
trying to be wholesome.   


You are already wholesome, you don't need to "try" or "strive" or "purify" or 
whatever to be wholesome.  


As far as actions, the key there is in the moment, how are you acting.  Far 
from being a help, trying to be wholesome is more likely to make you miss 
seeing the unwholesome parts of your own reality and thereby become more likely 
to be blind to the harm you are causing.  


--Chris


On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Kristy McClain  wrote:









Hi Bill,
 
I agree.  Lets get drunk and party.  ~ k



--- On Wed, 2/2/11, Bill!  wrote:



From: Bill! 

Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:05 PM 





  

ED,

I disagree - not becuase I want to discourage 'wholesome' behaviour, but 
because I don't want anyone to beleive that acting in any certain way (even in 
what the person believes is a 'wholesome' way) will contribute to the 
realization of Buddha Nature.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Bill,
> 
> Whether the number of steps in the Eightfold noble path is 8 or 800 is
> not relevant. Whether Zen is a subset of Buddhism or not is a non-issue.
> And, you may use the qualifier 'right' or 'wholesome' or something else.
> 
> The point is that in addition to concentration meditation and
> shikantaza, wholesome motivation, and wholesome thought, speech and
> conduct are either necessary for or will greatly facilitate the
> realization of Buddha Nature.
> 
> How wholesome motivation and wholesome behavior are cultivated in a
> zenist is the zenist's choice. Buddhism offers a variety of practices to
> achieve these two ends.
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > ED,
> >
> > The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't
> > consider
> > Zen a subset of Buddhism. First of all to assert there are 8 items
> > of conduct such as this borders on hubris. Also to proceed all of them
> > with
> > a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that
> > characterizes most religions.
> >
> > Bill
>

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[ED]

Hi Brett, thank you.  --ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin 
wrote:
>
> Hi Ed,
> The wisdom I seek is hard for me to explain, but I will try.  The
wisdom I seek is a pure wisdom, not from men, books, or religions, but
straight from the source.  The source I am referring to, can not be
named, it is called by many names, God, Tao, Buddha, or even Zen.  I
believe a person can seek this source, and by stilling the thoughts of
the mind, this allows a certain kind of oneness with this source, which
in my experience, has lead to certain wisdom about certain things in my
life.  The benefits of following this wisdom is that it brings me to a
certain harmony with this source, and the suffering that I had by not
being in harmony, seems to go away.  So this is my attempt to explain my
view on this, hope I didn't confuse matters.
>
> Brett




> Brett,
> What are the nature and benefits of this 'wisdom' you seek?
> Thanks, ED



> > I agree with you Bill, I feel by seeking wisdom through our own
personal experience, we are lead to the truth, even if we have never
even seen other teachings.
> >
> > Brett




> > Brett,
> >
> > My point is you don't have to have or subscribe to an 'eightfold
path' to do all those things (and more) in your life.
> > ...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Kristy McClain]

 
This sounds right to me.  Now I really need a drink.  ~ k


--- On Wed, 2/2/11, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:


From: Chris Austin-Lane 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 6:53 PM


  



Seems to me that the problem isn't acting in a wholesome fashion, but the 
trying to be wholesome.  


You are already wholesome, you don't need to "try" or "strive" or "purify" or 
whatever to be wholesome.  


As far as actions, the key there is in the moment, how are you acting.  Far 
from being a help, trying to be wholesome is more likely to make you miss 
seeing the unwholesome parts of your own reality and thereby become more likely 
to be blind to the harm you are causing.  


--Chris


On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Kristy McClain  wrote:









Hi Bill,
 
I agree.  Lets get drunk and party.  ~ k



--- On Wed, 2/2/11, Bill!  wrote:



From: Bill! 

Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:05 PM





  

ED,

I disagree - not becuase I want to discourage 'wholesome' behaviour, but 
because I don't want anyone to beleive that acting in any certain way (even in 
what the person believes is a 'wholesome' way) will contribute to the 
realization of Buddha Nature.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Bill,
> 
> Whether the number of steps in the Eightfold noble path is 8 or 800 is
> not relevant. Whether Zen is a subset of Buddhism or not is a non-issue.
> And, you may use the qualifier 'right' or 'wholesome' or something else.
> 
> The point is that in addition to concentration meditation and
> shikantaza, wholesome motivation, and wholesome thought, speech and
> conduct are either necessary for or will greatly facilitate the
> realization of Buddha Nature.
> 
> How wholesome motivation and wholesome behavior are cultivated in a
> zenist is the zenist's choice. Buddhism offers a variety of practices to
> achieve these two ends.
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > ED,
> >
> > The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't
> > consider
> > Zen a subset of Buddhism. First of all to assert there are 8 items
> > of conduct such as this borders on hubris. Also to proceed all of them
> > with
> > a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that
> > characterizes most religions.
> >
> > Bill
>














  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Chris Austin-Lane]

Seems to me that the problem isn't acting in a wholesome fashion, but the
trying to be wholesome.

You are already wholesome, you don't need to "try" or "strive" or "purify"
or whatever to be wholesome.

As far as actions, the key there is in the moment, how are you acting.  Far
from being a help, trying to be wholesome is more likely to make you miss
seeing the unwholesome parts of your own reality and thereby become more
likely to be blind to the harm you are causing.

--Chris

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Kristy McClain wrote:

>
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> I agree.  Lets get drunk and party.  ~ k
>
>
> --- On *Wed, 2/2/11, Bill! * wrote:
>
>
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:05 PM
>
>
>
> ED,
>
> I disagree - not becuase I want to discourage 'wholesome' behaviour, but
> because I don't want anyone to beleive that acting in any certain way (even
> in what the person believes is a 'wholesome' way) will contribute to the
> realization of Buddha Nature.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In 
> Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com<http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "ED"  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > Whether the number of steps in the Eightfold noble path is 8 or 800 is
> > not relevant. Whether Zen is a subset of Buddhism or not is a non-issue.
> > And, you may use the qualifier 'right' or 'wholesome' or something else.
> >
> > The point is that in addition to concentration meditation and
> > shikantaza, wholesome motivation, and wholesome thought, speech and
> > conduct are either necessary for or will greatly facilitate the
> > realization of Buddha Nature.
> >
> > How wholesome motivation and wholesome behavior are cultivated in a
> > zenist is the zenist's choice. Buddhism offers a variety of practices to
> > achieve these two ends.
> >
> > --ED
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In 
> > Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com<http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Bill!"  wrote:
> > >
> > > ED,
> > >
> > > The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't
> > > consider
> > > Zen a subset of Buddhism. First of all to assert there are 8 items
> > > of conduct such as this borders on hubris. Also to proceed all of them
> > > with
> > > a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that
> > > characterizes most religions.
> > >
> > > Bill
> >
>
>
>
>
> 

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Kristy McClain]

Hi Bill,
 
I agree.  Lets get drunk and party.  ~ k


--- On Wed, 2/2/11, Bill!  wrote:


From: Bill! 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:05 PM


  



ED,

I disagree - not becuase I want to discourage 'wholesome' behaviour, but 
because I don't want anyone to beleive that acting in any certain way (even in 
what the person believes is a 'wholesome' way) will contribute to the 
realization of Buddha Nature.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Bill,
> 
> Whether the number of steps in the Eightfold noble path is 8 or 800 is
> not relevant. Whether Zen is a subset of Buddhism or not is a non-issue.
> And, you may use the qualifier 'right' or 'wholesome' or something else.
> 
> The point is that in addition to concentration meditation and
> shikantaza, wholesome motivation, and wholesome thought, speech and
> conduct are either necessary for or will greatly facilitate the
> realization of Buddha Nature.
> 
> How wholesome motivation and wholesome behavior are cultivated in a
> zenist is the zenist's choice. Buddhism offers a variety of practices to
> achieve these two ends.
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > ED,
> >
> > The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't
> > consider
> > Zen a subset of Buddhism. First of all to assert there are 8 items
> > of conduct such as this borders on hubris. Also to proceed all of them
> > with
> > a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that
> > characterizes most religions.
> >
> > Bill
>









  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Bill!]

ED,

I disagree - not becuase I want to discourage 'wholesome' behaviour, but 
because I don't want anyone to beleive that acting in any certain way (even in 
what the person believes is a 'wholesome' way) will contribute to the 
realization of Buddha Nature.

...Bill!


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Bill,
> 
> Whether the number of steps in the Eightfold noble path is 8 or 800 is
> not relevant. Whether Zen is a subset of Buddhism or not is a non-issue.
> And, you may use the qualifier 'right' or 'wholesome' or something else.
> 
> The point is that in addition to concentration meditation and
> shikantaza, wholesome motivation, and wholesome thought, speech and
> conduct are either necessary for or will greatly facilitate the
> realization of Buddha Nature.
> 
> How wholesome motivation and wholesome behavior are cultivated in a
> zenist is the zenist's choice. Buddhism offers a variety of practices to
> achieve these two ends.
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> >  ED,
> >
> > The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't
> > consider
> > Zen a subset of Buddhism. First of all to assert there are 8 items
> > of conduct such as this borders on hubris. Also to proceed all of them
> > with
> > a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that
> > characterizes most religions.
> >
> >  Bill
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

Well put, Ed.  To be whole - body, mind and spirit -- is the key...

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 2/2/2011 11:58 AM, ED wrote:




Bill,

Whether the number of steps in the Eightfold noble path is 8 or 800 is
not relevant. Whether Zen is a subset of Buddhism or not is a non-issue.
And, you may use the qualifier 'right' or 'wholesome' or something else.

The point is that in addition to concentration meditation and
shikantaza, wholesome motivation, and wholesome thought, speech and
conduct are either necessary for or will greatly facilitate the
realization of Buddha Nature.

How wholesome motivation and wholesome behavior are cultivated in a
zenist is the zenist's choice. Buddhism offers a variety of practices to
achieve these two ends.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com , 
"Bill!"  wrote:

>
> ED,
>
> The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't
> consider
> Zen a subset of Buddhism. First of all to assert there are 8 items
> of conduct such as this borders on hubris. Also to proceed all of them
> with
> a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that
> characterizes most religions.
>
> Bill

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

Hi Ed,
The wisdom I seek is hard for me to explain, but I will try.  The wisdom I seek 
is a pure wisdom, not from men, books, or religions, but straight from the 
source.  The source I am referring to, can not be named, it is called by many 
names, God, Tao, Buddha, or even Zen.  I believe a person can seek this source, 
and by stilling the thoughts of the mind, this allows a certain kind of oneness 
with this source, which in my experience, has lead to certain wisdom about 
certain things in my life.  The benefits of following this wisdom is that it 
brings me to a certain harmony with this source, and the suffering that I had 
by not being in harmony, seems to go away.  So this is my attempt to explain my 
view on this, hope I didn't confuse matters.

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Wed, 2/2/11, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 11:35 AM













 
Brett,
What are the nature and benefits of this 'wisdom' you seek?

Thanks, ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> I agree with you Bill, I feel by seeking wisdom through our own personal 
> experience, we are lead to the truth, even if we have never even seen other 
> teachings.
> 
> Brett
 
> Brett,
> 
> My point is you don't have to have or subscribe to an 'eightfold path' to do 
> all those things (and more) in your life.
> 
> ...Bill!





  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[ED]

Bill,

Whether the number of steps in the Eightfold noble path is 8 or 800 is
not relevant. Whether Zen is a subset of Buddhism or not is a non-issue.
And, you may use the qualifier 'right' or 'wholesome' or something else.

The point is that in addition to concentration meditation and
shikantaza, wholesome motivation, and wholesome thought, speech and
conduct are either necessary for or will greatly facilitate the
realization of Buddha Nature.

How wholesome motivation and wholesome behavior are cultivated in a
zenist is the zenist's choice. Buddhism offers a variety of practices to
achieve these two ends.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
>  ED,
>
> The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't
> consider
> Zen a subset of Buddhism. First of all to assert there are 8 items
> of conduct such as this borders on hubris. Also to proceed all of them
> with
> a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that
> characterizes most religions.
>
>  Bill








Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[ED]

Brett,

What are the nature and benefits of this 'wisdom' you seek?


Thanks, ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin 
wrote:
>
> I agree with you Bill, I feel by seeking wisdom through our own
personal experience, we are lead to the truth, even if we have never
even seen other teachings.
>
> Brett



> Brett,
>
> My point is you don't have to have or subscribe to an 'eightfold path'
to do all those things (and more) in your life.
>
> ...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

I agree with you Bill, I feel by seeking wisdom through our own personal 
experience, we are lead to the truth, even if we have never even seen other 
teachings.

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Tue, 2/1/11, Bill!  wrote:


From: Bill! 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011, 9:41 PM


Brett,

My point is you don't have to have or subscribe to an 'eightfold path' to do 
all those things (and more) in your life.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> I think the noble eightfold path is sound teaching, and also just plan 
> sense.  I think if a person did not practice these things in there lives, the 
> result would not be to good.
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
> --- On Tue, 2/1/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! BillSmart@...
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011, 2:12 AM
> 
> 
> ED,
> 
> The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't consider zen a 
> subset of Buddhism.  First of all to assert there are 8 items of conduct such 
> as this borders on hubris.  Also to proceed all of them with a qualifier 
> 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that characterizes most 
> religions.
> 
> For all lists and dogmas and precepts and commandments, etc.., I must agree 
> with a quote from Phaedrus by Plato:
> 
> "And what is good, Phaedrus,
> And what is not good -
> Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"
> 
> No ED, zen does not concern itself with lists like this - at least the zen I 
> practice does not.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > The Noble Eightfold Path
> > 
> > 1. Right View                                       Wisdom
> > 2. Right Intention                                     "
> > 
> > 
> > 3. Right Speech                                    Ethical Conduct
> > 4. Right Action                                            "
> > 5. Right Livelihood                                     "
> > 
> > 
> > 6. Right Effort                                       Mental Development
> > 7. Right Mindfulness                                  "
> > 8. Right Concentration                               "
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Bill,
> > 
> > I tend to class zen as the subset of Zen which focuses on steps 6., 7.,
> > and 8. only of the Eightfold Noble Path, that is, on mental development
> > only.
> > 
> > There is no concern for Buddhist altruistic motivation and worldview
> > (wisdom), nor for ethical conduct.
> > 
> > 'zen' was probably practiced by the samurai, kamikaze pilots in WWII,
> > martial artists, Japanese businessmen competing with the US post-WWII,
> > and some sports over-achievers.
> > 
> > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 1. Right View <#Right_View>  Wisdom  2. Right Intention
> > <#Right_Intention>   3. Right Speech <#Right_Speech>  Ethical Conduct 
> > 4. Right Action <#Right_Action>   5. Right Livelihood
> > <#Right_Livelihood>   6. Right Effort <#Right_Effort>  Mental
> > Development  7. Right Mindfulness <#Right_Mindfulness>   8. Right
> > Concentration <#Right_Concentration>
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Brett,
> > >
> > > I don't consider zen a sub-set of Zen Buddhism as do most. I consider
> > zen just a direct expierience of reality and independent of Buddhism.
> > Zen Buddhism to me is just a Buddhist expression of zen, using Buddhist
> > terms, tenets, precepts, etc... But be advised this is just my
> > interpretation and not the usual view.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links






  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Bill!]

Dana,  My Rich-Text Formatted replies are imbedded below:


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Dana S. Leslie"  wrote:
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Bill!" BillSmart@...
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 5:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
>
>
> > ED,
> >
> > The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't
consider
> > Zen a subset of Buddhism. First of all to assert there are 8 items
of
> > conduct such as this borders on hubris. Also to proceed all of them
with
> > a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that
> > characterizes most religions.
>
> Bill,
>
> First, I don't think The Eight-Fold Path makes any sort of ontological
> assertion about the number of sub-categories of the category of
conduct that
> exist, as you seem to think it does.

Of course it does.  There are 8 of them, aren't there?  It's not the
How-Ever-Many-You-Want-Fold Path.  ED's original post even shows them as
subcategories of 3 high-level categories.

  It is simply a pragmatic mnemonic
> identifying eight areas of human action in which to apply cultivation.
Might
> one identify more or fewer such areas? Of course. But the particular
eight
> that have come down to us are (presumably) those that Shakyamuni found
most
> useful in teaching his students his way of applying cultivation.

This is pure speculation by you.  You have no idea why Shakyamuni
specified these 8 areas  - if he indeed did.  And even if he did that's
Shakyamuni's categorization and valuation.  Why do you think it should
be yours?
>
> Second, I don't think the qualifier "right" is meant to be taken
> deontologically, as you seem to think. Substitute "skillful" for
"right" (if
> "right" offends you), and it is STILL The Noble Eight-Fold Path.


'Right' certainly is not the correct qualifier; neither is 'Skillful'. 
Both these imply absolute valuations.  It implies someone has determined
what is 'Right' or 'Skillful' for everyone.   JMJM suggested
'Harmonious' which does sound like a better translation to me. At least
it's a relative valuation.

  > Another apparent tension between Zen and The Eight-Fold Path (as it
is
> usually presented) that has long intrigued me is this: The EFP is
usually
> presented as a *means* to the elimination of suffering/the attainment
of
> enlightenment/etc. But Zen is continually repudiating any sort of
thinking
> in terms of means and ends, goals to be attained, etc.


The only 'means' of eliminating suffering is to eliminate attachments
which requires elimination of the illusion of self.  I don't see how any
of these 8 suggestions help you do that.  These are just 8 more things
to which you'll eventually have to drop attachments.


> After meditating on this paradox for some time, I have come to think
of the
> EFP as NOT a means to enlightenment, but a *pragmatic* definition of
just
> what constitutes enlightenment. Enlightenment JUST IS living
skillfully,
> living the EFP (to the ideal?).


There is no 'enlightenment', there is Just THIS!  Skill and certainl
ideals have nothing to do with it.

Thanks for your post...Bill!






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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Bill!]

Brett,

My point is you don't have to have or subscribe to an 'eightfold path' to do 
all those things (and more) in your life.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> I think the noble eightfold path is sound teaching, and also just plan 
> sense.  I think if a person did not practice these things in there lives, the 
> result would not be to good.
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
> --- On Tue, 2/1/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! BillSmart@...
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011, 2:12 AM
> 
> 
> ED,
> 
> The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't consider zen a 
> subset of Buddhism.  First of all to assert there are 8 items of conduct such 
> as this borders on hubris.  Also to proceed all of them with a qualifier 
> 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that characterizes most 
> religions.
> 
> For all lists and dogmas and precepts and commandments, etc.., I must agree 
> with a quote from Phaedrus by Plato:
> 
> "And what is good, Phaedrus,
> And what is not good -
> Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"
> 
> No ED, zen does not concern itself with lists like this - at least the zen I 
> practice does not.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > The Noble Eightfold Path
> > 
> > 1. Right View                                       Wisdom
> > 2. Right Intention                                     "
> > 
> > 
> > 3. Right Speech                                    Ethical Conduct
> > 4. Right Action                                            "
> > 5. Right Livelihood                                     "
> > 
> > 
> > 6. Right Effort                                       Mental Development
> > 7. Right Mindfulness                                  "
> > 8. Right Concentration                               "
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Bill,
> > 
> > I tend to class zen as the subset of Zen which focuses on steps 6., 7.,
> > and 8. only of the Eightfold Noble Path, that is, on mental development
> > only.
> > 
> > There is no concern for Buddhist altruistic motivation and worldview
> > (wisdom), nor for ethical conduct.
> > 
> > 'zen' was probably practiced by the samurai, kamikaze pilots in WWII,
> > martial artists, Japanese businessmen competing with the US post-WWII,
> > and some sports over-achievers.
> > 
> > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 1. Right View <#Right_View>  Wisdom  2. Right Intention
> > <#Right_Intention>   3. Right Speech <#Right_Speech>  Ethical Conduct 
> > 4. Right Action <#Right_Action>   5. Right Livelihood
> > <#Right_Livelihood>   6. Right Effort <#Right_Effort>  Mental
> > Development  7. Right Mindfulness <#Right_Mindfulness>   8. Right
> > Concentration <#Right_Concentration>
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Brett,
> > >
> > > I don't consider zen a sub-set of Zen Buddhism as do most. I consider
> > zen just a direct expierience of reality and independent of Buddhism.
> > Zen Buddhism to me is just a Buddhist expression of zen, using Buddhist
> > terms, tenets, precepts, etc... But be advised this is just my
> > interpretation and not the usual view.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>






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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Bill!]

JMJM,

'Harmonious' is MUCH, MUCH more understandable than 'Right'.  Phaedrus would 
agree.  Thanks for your post...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
 wrote:
>
> Some Hinayana monk translated the Eightfold path using the word, 
> "harmonious" in place of "right", for obvious reasons.  If we following 
> this directions, then it is referring to our intentions.
> 
> Meaning it is referring to our heart.
> 
> My Teacher refers all written words as "for your convenience to wake 
> up." , or "convenient dharma".
> 
> Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
> http://www.heartchan.org
> 
> 
> On 2/1/2011 2:12 AM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> > ED,
> >
> > The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't 
> > consider zen a subset of Buddhism. First of all to assert there are 8 
> > items of conduct such as this borders on hubris. Also to proceed all 
> > of them with a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the 
> > impertinence that characterizes most religions.
> >
> > For all lists and dogmas and precepts and commandments, etc.., I must 
> > agree with a quote from Phaedrus by Plato:
> >
> > "And what is good, Phaedrus,
> > And what is not good -
> > Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"
> >
> > No ED, zen does not concern itself with lists like this - at least the 
> > zen I practice does not.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com , 
> > "ED"  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Noble Eightfold Path
> > >
> > > 1. Right View Wisdom
> > > 2. Right Intention "
> > >
> > >
> > > 3. Right Speech Ethical Conduct
> > > 4. Right Action "
> > > 5. Right Livelihood "
> > >
> > >
> > > 6. Right Effort Mental Development
> > > 7. Right Mindfulness "
> > > 8. Right Concentration "
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > I tend to class zen as the subset of Zen which focuses on steps 6., 7.,
> > > and 8. only of the Eightfold Noble Path, that is, on mental development
> > > only.
> > >
> > > There is no concern for Buddhist altruistic motivation and worldview
> > > (wisdom), nor for ethical conduct.
> > >
> > > 'zen' was probably practiced by the samurai, kamikaze pilots in WWII,
> > > martial artists, Japanese businessmen competing with the US post-WWII,
> > > and some sports over-achievers.
> > >
> > > --ED
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 1. Right View <#Right_View> Wisdom 2. Right Intention
> > > <#Right_Intention> 3. Right Speech <#Right_Speech> Ethical Conduct
> > > 4. Right Action <#Right_Action> 5. Right Livelihood
> > > <#Right_Livelihood> 6. Right Effort <#Right_Effort> Mental
> > > Development 7. Right Mindfulness <#Right_Mindfulness> 8. Right
> > > Concentration <#Right_Concentration>
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > , "Bill!"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Brett,
> > > >
> > > > I don't consider zen a sub-set of Zen Buddhism as do most. I consider
> > > zen just a direct expierience of reality and independent of Buddhism.
> > > Zen Buddhism to me is just a Buddhist expression of zen, using Buddhist
> > > terms, tenets, precepts, etc... But be advised this is just my
> > > interpretation and not the usual view.
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > >
> >
> >
>






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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Dana S. Leslie]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bill!" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 5:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?


> ED,
>
> The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't consider
> Zen a subset of Buddhism.  First of all to assert there are 8 items of
> conduct such as this borders on hubris.  Also to proceed all of them with
> a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that
> characterizes most religions.

Bill,

First, I don't think The Eight-Fold Path makes any sort of ontological
assertion about the number of sub-categories of the category of conduct that
exist, as you seem to think it does. It is simply a pragmatic mnemonic
identifying eight areas of human action in which to apply cultivation. Might 
one identify more or fewer such areas? Of course. But the particular eight 
that have come down to us are (presumably) those that Shakyamuni found most 
useful in teaching his students his way of applying cultivation.

Second, I don't think the qualifier "right" is meant to be taken 
deontologically, as you seem to think. Substitute "skillful" for "right" (if 
"right" offends you), and it is STILL The Noble Eight-Fold Path.

Another apparent tension between Zen and The Eight-Fold Path (as it is 
usually presented) that has long intrigued me is this: The EFP is usually 
presented as a *means* to the elimination of suffering/the attainment of 
enlightenment/etc. But Zen is continually repudiating any sort of thinking 
in terms of means and ends, goals to be attained, etc.

After meditating on this paradox for some time, I have come to think of the 
EFP as NOT a means to enlightenment, but a *pragmatic* definition of just 
what constitutes enlightenment. Enlightenment JUST IS living skillfully, 
living the EFP (to the ideal?).





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

I think the noble eightfold path is sound teaching, and also just plan sense.  
I think if a person did not practice these things in there lives, the result 
would not be to good.

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Tue, 2/1/11, Bill!  wrote:


From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011, 2:12 AM


ED,

The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't consider zen a 
subset of Buddhism.  First of all to assert there are 8 items of conduct such 
as this borders on hubris.  Also to proceed all of them with a qualifier 
'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that characterizes most 
religions.

For all lists and dogmas and precepts and commandments, etc.., I must agree 
with a quote from Phaedrus by Plato:

"And what is good, Phaedrus,
And what is not good -
Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"

No ED, zen does not concern itself with lists like this - at least the zen I 
practice does not.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> The Noble Eightfold Path
> 
> 1. Right View                                       Wisdom
> 2. Right Intention                                     "
> 
> 
> 3. Right Speech                                    Ethical Conduct
> 4. Right Action                                            "
> 5. Right Livelihood                                     "
> 
> 
> 6. Right Effort                                       Mental Development
> 7. Right Mindfulness                                  "
> 8. Right Concentration                               "
> 
> 
> 
> Bill,
> 
> I tend to class zen as the subset of Zen which focuses on steps 6., 7.,
> and 8. only of the Eightfold Noble Path, that is, on mental development
> only.
> 
> There is no concern for Buddhist altruistic motivation and worldview
> (wisdom), nor for ethical conduct.
> 
> 'zen' was probably practiced by the samurai, kamikaze pilots in WWII,
> martial artists, Japanese businessmen competing with the US post-WWII,
> and some sports over-achievers.
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Right View <#Right_View>  Wisdom  2. Right Intention
> <#Right_Intention>   3. Right Speech <#Right_Speech>  Ethical Conduct 
> 4. Right Action <#Right_Action>   5. Right Livelihood
> <#Right_Livelihood>   6. Right Effort <#Right_Effort>  Mental
> Development  7. Right Mindfulness <#Right_Mindfulness>   8. Right
> Concentration <#Right_Concentration>
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > Brett,
> >
> > I don't consider zen a sub-set of Zen Buddhism as do most. I consider
> zen just a direct expierience of reality and independent of Buddhism.
> Zen Buddhism to me is just a Buddhist expression of zen, using Buddhist
> terms, tenets, precepts, etc... But be advised this is just my
> interpretation and not the usual view.
> >
> > ...Bill!
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links






  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> ED,
> 
> The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't consider zen a 
> subset of Buddhism.  First of all to assert there are 8 items of conduct such 
> as this borders on hubris.  Also to proceed all of them with a qualifier 
> 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that characterizes most 
> religions.
> 
> For all lists and dogmas and precepts and commandments, etc.., I must agree 
> with a quote from Phaedrus by Plato:
> 
> "And what is good, Phaedrus,
> And what is not good -
> Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"
> 
> No ED, zen does not concern itself with lists like this - at least the zen I 
> practice does not.
> 
> ...Bill!
>
  Hi Bill! and ED. I happen to be an unabashed advocate of the Buddhist 
program. The Eightfold Path is all about transcending
Dukkha and realizing Sukkha. In my experience, and from observing  the behavior 
of so-called Enlightened Masters, I have seen that
conditioned attachment to greed and hatred does not simply vanish
with clear seeing, unless that clear seeing is applied in a systematic
way in daily life. But that systematic application is itself
the Eightfold Path. In my opinion, too many Western Zennists
are content to realize a certain level of insight into Emptiness
and then assert that "Everything is perfect in being what it is".
And yet, in times of duress, they are still pulled and pushed by
the Kleshas. They are still secretly unhappy, and they continue to
make others unhappy. Yes, everything is perfect in being what it is,
but what it IS is the process of sentient beings awakening to their
Buddha Dhatu and then applying that awakening in a positive way both
to their own lives and to their interactions with others. And as I 
mentioned earlier, this IS practical application of The Eightfold
Path. This is also the meaning of "Sudden Enlightenment followed by
Gradual Cultivation" advocated by Korean Zen (Son). In my opinion.
Steve 





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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

Some Hinayana monk translated the Eightfold path using the word, 
"harmonious" in place of "right", for obvious reasons.  If we following 
this directions, then it is referring to our intentions.


Meaning it is referring to our heart.

My Teacher refers all written words as "for your convenience to wake 
up." , or "convenient dharma".


Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 2/1/2011 2:12 AM, Bill! wrote:


ED,

The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't 
consider zen a subset of Buddhism. First of all to assert there are 8 
items of conduct such as this borders on hubris. Also to proceed all 
of them with a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the 
impertinence that characterizes most religions.


For all lists and dogmas and precepts and commandments, etc.., I must 
agree with a quote from Phaedrus by Plato:


"And what is good, Phaedrus,
And what is not good -
Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"

No ED, zen does not concern itself with lists like this - at least the 
zen I practice does not.


...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com , 
"ED"  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> The Noble Eightfold Path
>
> 1. Right View Wisdom
> 2. Right Intention "
>
>
> 3. Right Speech Ethical Conduct
> 4. Right Action "
> 5. Right Livelihood "
>
>
> 6. Right Effort Mental Development
> 7. Right Mindfulness "
> 8. Right Concentration "
>
>
>
> Bill,
>
> I tend to class zen as the subset of Zen which focuses on steps 6., 7.,
> and 8. only of the Eightfold Noble Path, that is, on mental development
> only.
>
> There is no concern for Buddhist altruistic motivation and worldview
> (wisdom), nor for ethical conduct.
>
> 'zen' was probably practiced by the samurai, kamikaze pilots in WWII,
> martial artists, Japanese businessmen competing with the US post-WWII,
> and some sports over-achievers.
>
> --ED
>
>
>
> 1. Right View <#Right_View> Wisdom 2. Right Intention
> <#Right_Intention> 3. Right Speech <#Right_Speech> Ethical Conduct
> 4. Right Action <#Right_Action> 5. Right Livelihood
> <#Right_Livelihood> 6. Right Effort <#Right_Effort> Mental
> Development 7. Right Mindfulness <#Right_Mindfulness> 8. Right
> Concentration <#Right_Concentration>
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
, "Bill!"  wrote:

> >
> > Brett,
> >
> > I don't consider zen a sub-set of Zen Buddhism as do most. I consider
> zen just a direct expierience of reality and independent of Buddhism.
> Zen Buddhism to me is just a Buddhist expression of zen, using Buddhist
> terms, tenets, precepts, etc... But be advised this is just my
> interpretation and not the usual view.
> >
> > ...Bill!
>

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Bill!]

ED,

The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't consider zen a 
subset of Buddhism.  First of all to assert there are 8 items of conduct such 
as this borders on hubris.  Also to proceed all of them with a qualifier 
'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that characterizes most 
religions.

For all lists and dogmas and precepts and commandments, etc.., I must agree 
with a quote from Phaedrus by Plato:

"And what is good, Phaedrus,
And what is not good -
Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"

No ED, zen does not concern itself with lists like this - at least the zen I 
practice does not.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> The Noble Eightfold Path
> 
> 1. Right View   Wisdom
> 2. Right Intention "
> 
> 
> 3. Right SpeechEthical Conduct
> 4. Right Action"
> 5. Right Livelihood "
> 
> 
> 6. Right Effort   Mental Development
> 7. Right Mindfulness  "
> 8. Right Concentration   "
> 
> 
> 
> Bill,
> 
> I tend to class zen as the subset of Zen which focuses on steps 6., 7.,
> and 8. only of the Eightfold Noble Path, that is, on mental development
> only.
> 
> There is no concern for Buddhist altruistic motivation and worldview
> (wisdom), nor for ethical conduct.
> 
> 'zen' was probably practiced by the samurai, kamikaze pilots in WWII,
> martial artists, Japanese businessmen competing with the US post-WWII,
> and some sports over-achievers.
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Right View <#Right_View>  Wisdom  2. Right Intention
> <#Right_Intention>   3. Right Speech <#Right_Speech>  Ethical Conduct 
> 4. Right Action <#Right_Action>   5. Right Livelihood
> <#Right_Livelihood>   6. Right Effort <#Right_Effort>  Mental
> Development  7. Right Mindfulness <#Right_Mindfulness>   8. Right
> Concentration <#Right_Concentration>
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > Brett,
> >
> > I don't consider zen a sub-set of Zen Buddhism as do most. I consider
> zen just a direct expierience of reality and independent of Buddhism.
> Zen Buddhism to me is just a Buddhist expression of zen, using Buddhist
> terms, tenets, precepts, etc... But be advised this is just my
> interpretation and not the usual view.
> >
> > ...Bill!
>






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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[ED]

Hi Steve -

Yes indeed "As Seng T'san said: "The Great Way is only difficult for
those who pick and choose."" says it well.
Below is the version of the complete text that I am accustomed to.

--ED

PS: Thanks for undercoring the relationship between Zen and Dzogchen.


HSIN HSIN MING Verses on the Faith Mind, by the 3rd Zen Patriarch, Seng
T'san


The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and
undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction however, and heaven and earth are set
infinitely apart.

If you wish to see the truth then hold no opinions for or against
anything.

To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the
mind.

When the deep meaning of things is not understood, the mind's essential
peace is disturbed to no avail.



The Way is perfect like vast space when nothing is lacking and nothing
is in excess.

Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject that we do not see
the true nature of things.



Live neither in the entanglements of outer things nor in inner feelings
of emptiness.

Be serene in the oneness of things and such erroneous views will
disappear by themselves.



When you try to stop activity to achieve passivity your very effort
fills you with activity.

As long as you remain in one extreme or the other you will never know
Oneness.



Those who do not live in the single Way fail in both activity and
passivity, assertion and denial.



To deny the reality of things is to miss their reality; to assert the
emptiness of things is to miss their reality.



The more you talk and think about it, the further astray you wander from
the truth.

Stop talking and thinking, and there is nothing you will not be able to
know.



To return to the root is to find the meaning, but to pursue appearances
is to miss the source.

At the moment of inner enlightenment there is a going beyond appearance
and emptiness.

The changes that appear to occur in the empty world we call real only
because of our ignorance.



Do not search for the truth; only cease to cherish opinions.

Do not remain in the dualistic state -- avoid such pursuits carefully.

If there is even a trace of this and that, of right and wrong, the
Mind-essence will be lost in confusion.

Although all dualities come from the One, do not be attached even to
this One.



When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way, nothing in the world can
offend, and when such a thing can no longer offend, it ceases to exist
in the old way.

When no discriminating thoughts arise, the old mind ceases to exist.



When thought objects vanish, the thinking-subject vanishes, as when the
mind vanishes, objects vanish.

Things are objects because of the subject (mind); the mind (subject) is
such because of things (object).

Understand the relativity of these two and the basic reality: the unity
of emptiness.

In this emptiness the two are indistinguishable and each contains in
itself the whole world.

If you do not discriminate between coarse and fine you will not be
tempted to prejudice and opinion.



To live in the Great Way is neither easy nor difficult, but those with
limited views are fearful and irresolute; the faster they hurry, the
slower they go, and clinging (attachment) cannot be limited; even to be
attached to the idea of enlightenment is to go astray.

Just let things be in their own way and there will be neither coming nor
going.



Obey the nature of things (your own nature), and you will walk freely
and undisturbed.

When thought is in bondage the truth is hidden, for everything is murky
and unclear, and the burdensome practice of judging brings annoyance and
weariness.



What benefits can be derived from distinctions and separations?

If you wish to move in the One Way do not dislike even the world of
senses and ideas.

Indeed, to accept them fully is identical with true Enlightenment.

The wise man strives to no goals but the foolish man fetters himself.



There is one Dharma, not many; distinctions arise from the clinging
needs of the ignorant.

To seek Mind with the (discriminating) mind is the greatest of all
mistakes.

Rest and unrest derive from illusion; with enlightenment there is no
liking and disliking.

All dualities come from ignorant inference. They are like dreams or
flowers in air: foolish to try to grasp them.



Gain and loss, right and wrong: such thoughts must finally be abolished
at once.

If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease.

If the mind makes no discriminations, the ten thousand things are as
they are, of single essence.



To understand the mystery of this One-essence is to be released from all
entanglements.

When all things are seen equally the timeless Self-essence is reached.

No comparisons or analogies are possible in this causeless, relationless
state.



Consider movement stationary and the stationary in motion, both movement
and rest disappear.

When such dualities cease t

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> > "In truth, our Original Buddha-Nature is nothing that can be
> > understood. It is glorious and mysterious peacefulness, and that
> > is all that can be said. You, yourself, must awaken to it,
> > fathoming its depths. That which is before you is it in its
> > entirety, with nothing whatsoever lacking." -Huang Po
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Since everything is but an apparition, complete in being what it is,
> having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may
> well burst out into laughter."
> 
> -- Longchen Rabjampa  (Tibet, 14th century) - The Natural Freedom of
> Mind
> 
> Hi ED. Yes, that is the ultimate realization of Dzogchen. It is 
  also, imo, the realization of Zen. As Seng T'san said:
  "The Great Way is only difficult for those who pick and choose."
  Steve
>






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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[ED]

The Noble Eightfold Path

1. Right View   Wisdom
2. Right Intention "


3. Right SpeechEthical Conduct
4. Right Action"
5. Right Livelihood "


6. Right Effort   Mental Development
7. Right Mindfulness  "
8. Right Concentration   "



Bill,

I tend to class zen as the subset of Zen which focuses on steps 6., 7.,
and 8. only of the Eightfold Noble Path, that is, on mental development
only.

There is no concern for Buddhist altruistic motivation and worldview
(wisdom), nor for ethical conduct.

'zen' was probably practiced by the samurai, kamikaze pilots in WWII,
martial artists, Japanese businessmen competing with the US post-WWII,
and some sports over-achievers.

--ED



1. Right View <#Right_View>  Wisdom  2. Right Intention
<#Right_Intention>   3. Right Speech <#Right_Speech>  Ethical Conduct 
4. Right Action <#Right_Action>   5. Right Livelihood
<#Right_Livelihood>   6. Right Effort <#Right_Effort>  Mental
Development  7. Right Mindfulness <#Right_Mindfulness>   8. Right
Concentration <#Right_Concentration>

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> Brett,
>
> I don't consider zen a sub-set of Zen Buddhism as do most. I consider
zen just a direct expierience of reality and independent of Buddhism.
Zen Buddhism to me is just a Buddhist expression of zen, using Buddhist
terms, tenets, precepts, etc... But be advised this is just my
interpretation and not the usual view.
>
> ...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[ED]

> "In truth, our Original Buddha-Nature is nothing that can be
> understood. It is glorious and mysterious peacefulness, and that
> is all that can be said. You, yourself, must awaken to it,
> fathoming its depths. That which is before you is it in its
> entirety, with nothing whatsoever lacking." -Huang Po




"Since everything is but an apparition, complete in being what it is,
having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may
well burst out into laughter."

-- Longchen Rabjampa  (Tibet, 14th century) - The Natural Freedom of
Mind



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW"  wrote:
>
> Hi Brett. One way to get a handle on the differences of opinion in
> Buddhism is to consider the different views on Emptiness, or
> Shunyata. The Theravada asserted the emptiness of ego, but really
> did not go any farther than that. Mahayana and Vajrayana assert
> that emptiness applies to all phenomena. Here are the definitions
> given Emptiness by the major schools:
> -Emptiness of Inherent Existence (Madhyamaka, Geluk-Pa)
> -Emptiness of Subject and Object (Yogacara, Nyingma-Pa)
> -Emptiness of Other (Tathagatagarbha, Shentong)
> In my opinion, as well as Huang Po's, one should not confuse
> philosophy with Zen. All explanations, imo, miss the mark.
> Steve

> "In truth, our Original Buddha-Nature is nothing that can be
> understood. It is glorious and mysterious peacefulness, and that
> is all that can be said. You, yourself, must awaken to it,
> fathoming its depths. That which is before you is it in its
> entirety, with nothing whatsoever lacking." -Huang Po

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

Thanks for showing that to me Steve, I also like the quote.  For me meditation 
and seeking the truth is like this.  I believe the truth is in us all, and it 
is hidden behind a veil, and that veil is our own thoughts, by stilling my 
thoughts, I start to see things more clearer, and I start to become 
more enlightened.  The enlightenment I get leads me in the right direction to 
add or change behaviors in myself that either separate me or brings me 
closer to the  truth.  It does not happen all at once.  But with continues 
practice, and acting on the enlightenment I have already receive, I move little 
by little toward harmony or oneness with the truth.  I do not feel I know it 
all, matter of  fact, I know very little when comes to the big scheme of 
things, but what I do know for sure is I am walking down a path that I believe 
in bettering me.

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Thu, 1/27/11, SteveW  wrote: 
 
From: SteveW 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 8:45 PM




--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thank you for explanning that to me.  It seems to me that buddhism and 
> Zen has almost as much division as christianity.  I guess it is just the 
> nature of how things work.  It starts with a truth and then people start to 
> argue about what that truth really means, they divide and start another sect 
> and after awhile the same thing starts all over again.
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

  Hi Brett. One way to get a handle on the differences of opinion in 
  Buddhism is to consider the different views on Emptiness, or 
  Shunyata. The Theravada asserted the emptiness of ego, but really 
  did not go any farther than that. Mahayana and Vajrayana assert 
  that emptiness applies to all phenomena. Here are the definitions 
  given Emptiness by the major schools:
  -Emptiness of Inherent Existence (Madhyamaka, Geluk-Pa)
  -Emptiness of Subject and Object (Yogacara, Nyingma-Pa)
  -Emptiness of Other (Tathagatagarbha, Shentong)
  In my opinion, as well as Huang Po's, one should not confuse 
  philosophy with Zen. All explanations, imo, miss the mark.
  Steve
  "In truth, our Original Buddha-Nature is nothing that can be
   understood. It is glorious and mysterious peacefulness, and that
   is all that can be said. You, yourself, must awaken to it, 
   fathoming its depths. That which is before you is it in its
   entirety, with nothing whatsoever lacking." -Huang Po
>
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links






  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thank you for explanning that to me.  It seems to me that buddhism and 
> Zen has almost as much division as christianity.  I guess it is just the 
> nature of how things work.  It starts with a truth and then people start to 
> argue about what that truth really means, they divide and start another sect 
> and after awhile the same thing starts all over again.
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

  Hi Brett. One way to get a handle on the differences of opinion in 
  Buddhism is to consider the different views on Emptiness, or 
  Shunyata. The Theravada asserted the emptiness of ego, but really 
  did not go any farther than that. Mahayana and Vajrayana assert 
  that emptiness applies to all phenomena. Here are the definitions 
  given Emptiness by the major schools:
  -Emptiness of Inherent Existence (Madhyamaka, Geluk-Pa)
  -Emptiness of Subject and Object (Yogacara, Nyingma-Pa)
  -Emptiness of Other (Tathagatagarbha, Shentong)
  In my opinion, as well as Huang Po's, one should not confuse 
  philosophy with Zen. All explanations, imo, miss the mark.
  Steve
  "In truth, our Original Buddha-Nature is nothing that can be
   understood. It is glorious and mysterious peacefulness, and that
   is all that can be said. You, yourself, must awaken to it, 
   fathoming its depths. That which is before you is it in its
   entirety, with nothing whatsoever lacking." -Huang Po
>
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

That may be true, different expressions, and understandings of the same truth.  
But I have seen some belief systems that I feel are very far from the truth, 
but that is just my view on them.  Also it is my understanding that Buddha 
never claimed to be some kind of man-god, but rather, claims to be just a man 
who was awake (the meaning of the word Buddha) and by being awake was able to 
see thing for why they really were, and told his followers to seek for the same 
in themselves. 

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Thu, 1/27/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 5:33 PM








Ah, indeed.  Everything is originated from the same truth in the first place.  
Everything "must" be an expression of the same truth, just in different dresses.

Scientist say Big Bang.
Christians say God.
Buddhist say Buddha.

Well? :-) 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 1/27/2011 4:08 PM, Bill! wrote: 
  

Brett,

I don't really know if John Lennon practiced Zen Buddhism or not, but I think 
not. He was more into Hindi as far as I can tell. But, most Eastern religions 
have a core that's basically the same - and his song mentions a lot of those 
things.

I don't consider zen a sub-set of Zen Buddhism as do most. I consider zen just 
a direct expierience of reality and independent of Buddhism. Zen Buddhism to me 
is just a Buddhsit expression of zen, using Bhuddist terms, tenets, precepts, 
etc... But be advised this is just my interpretation and not the usual view.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Thank you for the song Bill.  Do you think John Lennon practiced Zen?
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
> --- On Wed, 1/26/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 10:58 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brett,
> This is what zen is:
> 
> Imagine there's no heaven
> It's easy if you try
> No hell below us
> Above us only sky
> Imagine all the people
> Living for today...
> 
> Imagine there's no countries
> It isn't hard to do
> Nothing to kill or die for
> And no religion too
> Imagine all the people
> Living life in peace...
> 
> You may say I'm a dreamer
> But I'm not the only one
> I hope someday you'll join us
> And the world will be as one
> 
> Imagine no possessions
> I wonder if you can
> No need for greed or hunger
> A brotherhood of man
> Imagine all the people
> Sharing all the world...
> 
> You may say I'm a dreamer
> But I'm not the only one
> I hope someday you'll join us
> And the world will live as one
> 
> John Lennon
> Zen is like this except there is no imagining - only experiencing...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Steve,
> > > I have been reading a lot of the post here, and find them interesting, 
> > > but have little to say about the subjects since I know very little about 
> > > zen meditation.  I meditate daily but the terms used in this group throw 
> > > me off.  A question I have is, in zen practice, is it the belief that 
> > > buddha is a god?
> > > 
> > > Brett
> > > http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> > > 
> > > Hi Brett. No, Buddha isn't regarded as a god, or at least I don't regard 
> > > Buddha as a god. Zen really doesn't preoccupy itself with metaphysical 
> > > speculations. Zen is:
> > "A special transmission
> > Outside of the scriptures,
> > No reliance on words or letters,
> > Looking deeply into one's true nature,
> > A direct pointing to the heart of humanity."
> > Steve
> >
>







  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

Ah, indeed.  Everything is originated from the same truth in the first 
place.  Everything "must" be an expression of the same truth, just in 
different dresses.


Scientist say Big Bang.
Christians say God.
Buddhist say Buddha.

Well?:-)

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 1/27/2011 4:08 PM, Bill! wrote:


Brett,

I don't really know if John Lennon practiced Zen Buddhism or not, but 
I think not. He was more into Hindi as far as I can tell. But, most 
Eastern religions have a core that's basically the same - and his song 
mentions a lot of those things.


I don't consider zen a sub-set of Zen Buddhism as do most. I consider 
zen just a direct expierience of reality and independent of Buddhism. 
Zen Buddhism to me is just a Buddhsit expression of zen, using 
Bhuddist terms, tenets, precepts, etc... But be advised this is just 
my interpretation and not the usual view.


...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, 
Brett Corbin  wrote:

>
> Thank you for the song Bill.  Do you think John Lennon practiced Zen?
>
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
>
> --- On Wed, 1/26/11, Bill!  wrote:
>
>
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 10:58 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Brett,
> This is what zen is:
>
> Imagine there's no heaven
> It's easy if you try
> No hell below us
> Above us only sky
> Imagine all the people
> Living for today...
>
> Imagine there's no countries
> It isn't hard to do
> Nothing to kill or die for
> And no religion too
> Imagine all the people
> Living life in peace...
>
> You may say I'm a dreamer
> But I'm not the only one
> I hope someday you'll join us
> And the world will be as one
>
> Imagine no possessions
> I wonder if you can
> No need for greed or hunger
> A brotherhood of man
> Imagine all the people
> Sharing all the world...
>
> You may say I'm a dreamer
> But I'm not the only one
> I hope someday you'll join us
> And the world will live as one
>
> John Lennon
> Zen is like this except there is no imagining - only 
experiencing...Bill!

>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, "SteveW"  wrote:

> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@ wrote:

> > >
> > > Hi Steve,
> > > I have been reading a lot of the post here, and find them 
interesting, but have little to say about the subjects since I know 
very little about zen meditation.  I meditate daily but the terms used 
in this group throw me off.  A question I have is, in zen practice, is 
it the belief that buddha is a god?

> > >
> > > Brett
> > > http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> > >
> > > Hi Brett. No, Buddha isn't regarded as a god, or at least I 
don't regard Buddha as a god. Zen really doesn't preoccupy itself with 
metaphysical speculations. Zen is:

> > "A special transmission
> > Outside of the scriptures,
> > No reliance on words or letters,
> > Looking deeply into one's true nature,
> > A direct pointing to the heart of humanity."
> > Steve
> >
>

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

Bill,
Thank you for explanning that to me.  It seems to me that buddhism and Zen has 
almost as much division as christianity.  I guess it is just the nature of how 
things work.  It starts with a truth and then people start to argue about what 
that truth really means, they divide and start another sect and after awhile 
the same thing starts all over again.

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Thu, 1/27/11, Bill!  wrote:


From: Bill! 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 4:08 PM


Brett,

I don't really know if John Lennon practiced Zen Buddhism or not, but I think 
not.  He was more into Hindi as far as I can tell.  But, most Eastern religions 
have a core that's basically the same - and his song mentions a lot of those 
things.

I don't consider zen a sub-set of Zen Buddhism as do most.  I consider zen just 
a direct expierience of reality and independent of Buddhism.  Zen Buddhism to 
me is just a Buddhsit expression of zen, using Bhuddist terms, tenets, 
precepts, etc...  But be advised this is just my interpretation and not the 
usual view.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Thank you for the song Bill.  Do you think John Lennon practiced Zen?
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
> --- On Wed, 1/26/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 10:58 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brett,
> This is what zen is:
> 
> Imagine there's no heaven
> It's easy if you try
> No hell below us
> Above us only sky
> Imagine all the people
> Living for today...
> 
> Imagine there's no countries
> It isn't hard to do
> Nothing to kill or die for
> And no religion too
> Imagine all the people
> Living life in peace...
> 
> You may say I'm a dreamer
> But I'm not the only one
> I hope someday you'll join us
> And the world will be as one
> 
> Imagine no possessions
> I wonder if you can
> No need for greed or hunger
> A brotherhood of man
> Imagine all the people
> Sharing all the world...
> 
> You may say I'm a dreamer
> But I'm not the only one
> I hope someday you'll join us
> And the world will live as one
> 
> John Lennon
> Zen is like this except there is no imagining - only experiencing...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Steve,
> > > I have been reading a lot of the post here, and find them interesting, 
> > > but have little to say about the subjects since I know very little about 
> > > zen meditation.  I meditate daily but the terms used in this group throw 
> > > me off.  A question I have is, in zen practice, is it the belief that 
> > > buddha is a god?
> > > 
> > > Brett
> > > http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> > > 
> > > Hi Brett. No, Buddha isn't regarded as a god, or at least I don't regard 
> > > Buddha as a god. Zen really doesn't preoccupy itself with metaphysical 
> > > speculations. Zen is:
> > "A special transmission
> > Outside of the scriptures,
> > No reliance on words or letters,
> > Looking deeply into one's true nature,
> > A direct pointing to the heart of humanity."
> > Steve
> >
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links






  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Bill!]

Brett,

I don't really know if John Lennon practiced Zen Buddhism or not, but I think 
not.  He was more into Hindi as far as I can tell.  But, most Eastern religions 
have a core that's basically the same - and his song mentions a lot of those 
things.

I don't consider zen a sub-set of Zen Buddhism as do most.  I consider zen just 
a direct expierience of reality and independent of Buddhism.  Zen Buddhism to 
me is just a Buddhsit expression of zen, using Bhuddist terms, tenets, 
precepts, etc...  But be advised this is just my interpretation and not the 
usual view.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Thank you for the song Bill.  Do you think John Lennon practiced Zen?
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
> --- On Wed, 1/26/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 10:58 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brett,
> This is what zen is:
> 
> Imagine there's no heaven
> It's easy if you try
> No hell below us
> Above us only sky
> Imagine all the people
> Living for today...
> 
> Imagine there's no countries
> It isn't hard to do
> Nothing to kill or die for
> And no religion too
> Imagine all the people
> Living life in peace...
> 
> You may say I'm a dreamer
> But I'm not the only one
> I hope someday you'll join us
> And the world will be as one
> 
> Imagine no possessions
> I wonder if you can
> No need for greed or hunger
> A brotherhood of man
> Imagine all the people
> Sharing all the world...
> 
> You may say I'm a dreamer
> But I'm not the only one
> I hope someday you'll join us
> And the world will live as one
> 
> John Lennon
> Zen is like this except there is no imagining - only experiencing...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Steve,
> > > I have been reading a lot of the post here, and find them interesting, 
> > > but have little to say about the subjects since I know very little about 
> > > zen meditation.  I meditate daily but the terms used in this group throw 
> > > me off.  A question I have is, in zen practice, is it the belief that 
> > > buddha is a god?
> > > 
> > > Brett
> > > http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> > > 
> > > Hi Brett. No, Buddha isn't regarded as a god, or at least I don't regard 
> > > Buddha as a god. Zen really doesn't preoccupy itself with metaphysical 
> > > speculations. Zen is:
> > "A special transmission
> > Outside of the scriptures,
> > No reliance on words or letters,
> > Looking deeply into one's true nature,
> > A direct pointing to the heart of humanity."
> > Steve
> >
>






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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Anthony Wu]

Steve,
 
Interesting that you advocate monistic idealism, which, according to Wikipedia, 
is the same as Yogacara's mind only theory, isn't it? If so, I ask you simple 
questions:
 
Is mind itself real or illusory?
Is mind's object real or illusory?
 
Anthony

--- On Fri, 28/1/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 28 January, 2011, 2:31 AM


  





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me.  I find it interesting.  
> Are people who practice Zen generally atheist, or do they see God just in a 
> different way then other religions, or do people who practice Zen have all 
> different types of view concerning the subject of God, and there practice has 
> nothing to do with there belief in God or not?
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

Well, Brett, I can't answer that. Zen isn't a set of beliefs.
Zen is "looking deeply". If you want to know what sugar tastes 
like, you must put some in your mouth! If what you really are 
asking me is "Can I practice Zen while still having some concept
of God?", then I would say yes. Just don't mistake your personal
metaphysical philosophy for Zen. For example, I happen to endorse 
the philosophical view-point of Monistic Idealism, but I don't 
confuse my philosophical opinions with Zen.
Steve

> 
>
>

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

Thanks Steve for clarifying that for me.

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Thu, 1/27/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 10:31 AM




--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me.  I find it interesting.  
> Are people who practice Zen generally atheist, or do they see God just in a 
> different way then other religions, or do people who practice Zen have all 
> different types of view concerning the subject of God, and there practice has 
> nothing to do with there belief in God or not?
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

  Well, Brett, I can't answer that. Zen isn't a set of beliefs.
  Zen is "looking deeply". If you want to know what sugar tastes 
  like, you must put some in your mouth! If what you really are 
  asking me is "Can I practice Zen while still having some concept
  of God?", then I would say yes. Just don't mistake your personal
  metaphysical philosophy for Zen. For example, I happen to endorse 
  the philosophical view-point of Monistic Idealism, but I don't 
  confuse my philosophical opinions with Zen.
  Steve
  
> 
>
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[novelidea8]

Gasho
 
I offer this a suggestion for empatic  pronouncements of one thing or 
another, to perhaps bring tradition, experience,  function, etc into, shall we 
say balance.
 
Of course if there is an arrival of harmony  in a group, oftentimes that is 
an indicator to pack up our tent and go  home.  So, since none of has the 
final answer/say . . . looks like we will  be here.
 
 
Three Significant Modes of Human  Organization and Learning
 
All human efforts are organized in one of  three 'departments'.
 
The General and informational
the more specific or specialist,
and the Personally Experiential.
 
Hence, for example:
 
Information about food; organization of  food; consumption of good, in that 
area. In the area of religion, we have  information and general exegesis 
(doctrine), followed by application of  religious organization (rules and 
worship), and finally, personal experience of  spirituality.
 
All religious systems are based on personal  experience (stage one) which 
has been codified (stage two) and applied to a  community (stage three). When 
the three ranges become confused or if one of  other is forgotten, people 
imagine that the organization is all, or that rule  are paramount, or that 
neither of the these matters since they are seeking only  personal 
illumination.  
 
When people agitate for personal experience,  they may attack institution 
or dogma, imagining that these are what stand in the  way.  What they have in 
fact encountered as problems is the growth of those  areas until they claim 
to represent, extinguish or replace personal experience.  What has happened 
is that the balance between the three elements is lost, not  that one or 
another of them paramount or interchangeable with  others.
 
Thus: we may know about food or have the  apparatus to obtain, taste and 
digest it. This does not mean that we are  organized to do so; or that we can 
taste it without obtaining it. Similarly, if  we have tasted it, this does 
not imply that we have the information or  organization to recognize or 
obtain it a second time."  
 
 
The Commanding Self, Idries Shah, pg  53
 
best wishes
 
Kirk
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 1/27/2011 10:31:28 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
eugnostos2...@yahoo.com writes:

 
 
 


--- In _Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com) , 
Brett  Corbin  wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
>  Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me.  I find it  
interesting.  Are people who practice Zen generally atheist, or do they  see 
God 
just in a different way then other religions, or do people who  practice Zen 
have all different types of view concerning the subject of God,  and there 
practice has nothing to do with there belief in God or not?
>  
> Brett
> _http://www.pbase.com/brett1963_ (http://www.pbase.com/brett1963) 

Well,  Brett, I can't answer that. Zen isn't a set of beliefs.
Zen is "looking  deeply". If you want to know what sugar tastes 
like, you must put some in  your mouth! If what you really are 
asking me is "Can I practice Zen while  still having some concept
of God?", then I would say yes. Just don't  mistake your personal
metaphysical philosophy for Zen. For example, I  happen to endorse 
the philosophical view-point of Monistic Idealism, but I  don't 
confuse my philosophical opinions with Zen.
Steve

>  
>
>

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me.  I find it interesting.  
> Are people who practice Zen generally atheist, or do they see God just in a 
> different way then other religions, or do people who practice Zen have all 
> different types of view concerning the subject of God, and there practice has 
> nothing to do with there belief in God or not?
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

  Well, Brett, I can't answer that. Zen isn't a set of beliefs.
  Zen is "looking deeply". If you want to know what sugar tastes 
  like, you must put some in your mouth! If what you really are 
  asking me is "Can I practice Zen while still having some concept
  of God?", then I would say yes. Just don't mistake your personal
  metaphysical philosophy for Zen. For example, I happen to endorse 
  the philosophical view-point of Monistic Idealism, but I don't 
  confuse my philosophical opinions with Zen.
  Steve
  
> 
>
>






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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

Thank you for the song Bill.  Do you think John Lennon practiced Zen?

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Wed, 1/26/11, Bill!  wrote:


From: Bill! 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 10:58 PM













Brett,
This is what zen is:

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

John Lennon
Zen is like this except there is no imagining - only experiencing...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi Steve,
> > I have been reading a lot of the post here, and find them interesting, but 
> > have little to say about the subjects since I know very little about zen 
> > meditation.  I meditate daily but the terms used in this group throw me 
> > off.  A question I have is, in zen practice, is it the belief that buddha 
> > is a god?
> > 
> > Brett
> > http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> > 
> > Hi Brett. No, Buddha isn't regarded as a god, or at least I don't regard 
> > Buddha as a god. Zen really doesn't preoccupy itself with metaphysical 
> > speculations. Zen is:
> "A special transmission
> Outside of the scriptures,
> No reliance on words or letters,
> Looking deeply into one's true nature,
> A direct pointing to the heart of humanity."
> Steve
>






  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Bill!]

Brett,

This is what zen is:

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...


Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...


You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one


Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...


You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


John Lennon

Zen is like this except there is no imagining - only
experiencing...Bill!


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW"  wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi Steve,
> > I have been reading a lot of the post here, and find them
interesting, but have little to say about the subjects since I know very
little about zen meditation.  I meditate daily but the terms used in
this group throw me off.  A question I have is, in zen practice, is it
the belief that buddha is a god?
> >
> > Brett
> > http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> >
> > Hi Brett. No, Buddha isn't regarded as a god, or at least I don't
regard Buddha as a god. Zen really doesn't preoccupy itself with
metaphysical speculations. Zen is:
> "A special transmission
> Outside of the scriptures,
> No reliance on words or letters,
> Looking deeply into one's true nature,
> A direct pointing to the heart of humanity."
> Steve
>

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

Hi Steve,
Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me.  I find it interesting.  
Are people who practice Zen generally atheist, or do they see God just in a 
different way then other religions, or do people who practice Zen have all 
different types of view concerning the subject of God, and there practice has 
nothing to do with there belief in God or not?

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Wed, 1/26/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 7:47 PM




--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> I have been reading a lot of the post here, and find them interesting, but 
> have little to say about the subjects since I know very little about zen 
> meditation.  I meditate daily but the terms used in this group throw me off.  
> A question I have is, in zen practice, is it the belief that buddha is a god?
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
> Hi Brett. No, Buddha isn't regarded as a god, or at least I don't regard 
> Buddha as a god. Zen really doesn't preoccupy itself with metaphysical 
> speculations. Zen is:
"A special transmission
Outside of the scriptures,
No reliance on words or letters,
Looking deeply into one's true nature,
A direct pointing to the heart of humanity."
Steve
  






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links






  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> I have been reading a lot of the post here, and find them interesting, but 
> have little to say about the subjects since I know very little about zen 
> meditation.  I meditate daily but the terms used in this group throw me off.  
> A question I have is, in zen practice, is it the belief that buddha is a god?
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
  Hi, again, Brett. One other thing. I would like to draw a distinction here 
between Zen and Buddhist philosophy. I have a background in philosophical 
studies, and I am particularly interested in Idealistic Buddhist philosophy 
(Cittamatra, Yogacara, Vijnanavada). But I would like to emphasize that Zen, in 
my opinion, is not a philosophy. So when I go on with my long-winded lectures, 
please keep in mind that I am just philosophising, which is just a bad habit of 
mine!
Steve
 






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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> I have been reading a lot of the post here, and find them interesting, but 
> have little to say about the subjects since I know very little about zen 
> meditation.  I meditate daily but the terms used in this group throw me off.  
> A question I have is, in zen practice, is it the belief that buddha is a god?
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
> Hi Brett. No, Buddha isn't regarded as a god, or at least I don't regard 
> Buddha as a god. Zen really doesn't preoccupy itself with metaphysical 
> speculations. Zen is:
"A special transmission
 Outside of the scriptures,
 No reliance on words or letters,
 Looking deeply into one's true nature,
 A direct pointing to the heart of humanity."
 Steve
  






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Anthony Wu]

ED,
 
What is your wavelenth? 999 megahertz, or 888 microhertz?
 
What you say today is different from you usual way. OK, you go along with 
Bill's approach of non-discrimination, putting everything as illusion. There 
are two ways of approaching this:
 
Agnostic, or
Sceptic.
 
Which is your wavelength?
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 26/1/11, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 26 January, 2011, 9:42 AM


  





I am esentially on the same wave-lengrh as you two. --ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
Steve, I agree with everything you have posted below and have in fact
posted
the same over and over in this forum for years.

These are conclusions I arrived at myself, not ones I were taught - but
as you
say there are hints and insinuations of these in many zen texts. It
seems
completely obvious to me now. Of course the counter-argument to this is
that I
just see/interpret what I want to see.

How did you arrive at these conclusions? By yourself or through some
teaching -
writings or in-person?

Thanks...Bill!

> > Hi Bill! I was taught zazen initially by those Japanese Karate
sensei who
happened to follow Soto. I was taught pretty much as you say. We did use
the
seiza kneeling posture, but that is generally used in traditional
Karate-Do. I
agree with you in regards to karma.
> In my opinion, it is lower-level understanding, deriving from
common-sense
notions of time and causality that are valid only from the relative,
finite
point of view. This is tied-in with the Two Truths understanding.
Ultimately, in
my opinion, even The Twelve-Fold Chain of Dependant Origination is
illusiory,
but useful for practice from the relative view-point. You know, The
Heart Sutra
pretty much just comes out and says this, imo. In my opinion,
common-sense
notions of cause and effect are based upon the illusion of sequential
time. If,
as I believe, time is an illusion and only Now exists, then even the
doctrine of
sequential re-birth is an illusion. IMO, everything is happening now.
IMO, a lot
of Buddhist doctrines are upaya, useful fictions for practice. This is
one
conclusion I have come to after over 3 decades of watching my breathing,
not
only while sitting, but also in daily activity. However, I could be just
mistaken.
> Steve

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

Hi Steve,
I have been reading a lot of the post here, and find them interesting, but have 
little to say about the subjects since I know very little about zen 
meditation.  I meditate daily but the terms used in this group throw me off.  A 
question I have is, in zen practice, is it the belief that buddha is a god?

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Wed, 1/26/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 11:11 AM






--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Thank you for your mention of Pure Land Buddhism.
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Land_Buddhism
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Land_Buddhism> )
> 
> Some three and a half decades ago I had decided that Zen was more
> suitable for me and had set aside Pure Land Buddhism as not an
> appropriate path for me.
> 
> But now that you mention it, I can see the wisdom of balancing Jiriki
> (self-power) with Tariki (other-power).  An an analogy from yoga, it
> could be likened to balancing  jnana yoga with bhakti yoga - thinking
> and feeling, wisdom and compassion, passive and active.
> 
> What Pure Land practices do you engage in?
> 
> Thanks, ED
> 
> Hi ED. Yes, balance is key, particularly since we are engaged in a very 
> paradoxical enterprise here. We come to Zen with the rather vague notion that 
> we want to experience for ourselves the Unbroken Oneness of things and, in 
> the process, escape from all of our frustrations and dissatisfactions. The 
> danger is that it will become just another self-help project of the 
> separative ego. As such, it is a contradiction in terms. As Huang Po said, it 
> is "using the Buddha to search for the Buddha and using the mind to look for 
> the mind." Rather than transcending the feeling of being an independant 
> agent, we are actually reinforcing it, because we can't get past the feeling 
> that we (as separate ego-selves) are doing it. 
My primary practice is what the Chinese call "The Unification of Mind and 
Wind." It is very simple. One just mentally recites the Name of the Buddha of 
Infinite Light and Life in coordination with one's breathing, taking particular 
care to be aware of the still-points between inhalation and exhalation, and 
exhalation and inhalation. After a while this will become automatic and one 
will no longer feel like one is doing it. This is what a Hindu yoga 
practicioner would call Japa Yoga. The Name recites itself. It is always there, 
like background music. Whenever kleshas arise, it kicks in and acts as a mental 
anchor to keep my attention from becoming enmeshed in, and identified with, the 
afflictive mental state. At the same time, by being attentive to the 
still-points between breaths, I become aware of the discontinuous gaps between 
thoughts, sensations and actions.
It is in the spaces between thoughts that we can become aware of the 
Buddha-Dhatu, which is our true nature. I no longer believe that I am doing it. 
"It" is doing it, and I totally trust that "It" knows what it is doing! If you 
want to know what "It" is, I can't say, but I bow as to the Buddha!
Steve 





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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Thank you for your mention of Pure Land Buddhism.
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Land_Buddhism
>  )
> 
> Some three and a half decades ago I had decided that Zen was more
> suitable for me and had set aside Pure Land Buddhism as not an
> appropriate path for me.
> 
> But now that you mention it, I can see the wisdom of balancing Jiriki
> (self-power) with Tariki (other-power).  An an analogy from yoga, it
> could be likened to balancing  jnana yoga with bhakti yoga - thinking
> and feeling, wisdom and compassion, passive and active.
> 
> What Pure Land practices do you engage in?
> 
> Thanks, ED
> 
> Hi ED. Yes, balance is key, particularly since we are engaged in a very 
> paradoxical enterprise here. We come to Zen with the rather vague notion that 
> we want to experience for ourselves the Unbroken Oneness of things and, in 
> the process, escape from all of our frustrations and dissatisfactions. The 
> danger is that it will become just another self-help project of the 
> separative ego. As such, it is a contradiction in terms. As Huang Po said, it 
> is "using the Buddha to search for the Buddha and using the mind to look for 
> the mind." Rather than transcending the feeling of being an independant 
> agent, we are actually reinforcing it, because we can't get past the feeling 
> that we (as separate ego-selves) are doing it. 
My primary practice is what the Chinese call "The Unification of Mind and 
Wind." It is very simple. One just mentally recites the Name of the Buddha of 
Infinite Light and Life in coordination with one's breathing, taking particular 
care to be aware of the still-points between inhalation and exhalation, and 
exhalation and inhalation. After a while this will become automatic and one 
will no longer feel like one is doing it. This is what a Hindu yoga 
practicioner would call Japa Yoga. The Name recites itself. It is always there, 
like background music. Whenever kleshas arise, it kicks in and acts as a mental 
anchor to keep my attention from becoming enmeshed in, and identified with, the 
afflictive mental state. At the same time, by being attentive to the 
still-points between breaths, I become aware of the discontinuous gaps between 
thoughts, sensations and actions.
It is in the spaces between thoughts that we can become aware of the 
Buddha-Dhatu, which is our true nature. I no longer believe that I am doing it. 
"It" is doing it, and I totally trust that "It" knows what it is doing! If you 
want to know what "It" is, I can't say, but I bow as to the Buddha!
Steve 





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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[ED]

Steve,

Thank you for your mention of Pure Land Buddhism.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Land_Buddhism
 )

Some three and a half decades ago I had decided that Zen was more
suitable for me and had set aside Pure Land Buddhism as not an
appropriate path for me.

But now that you mention it, I can see the wisdom of balancing Jiriki
(self-power) with Tariki (other-power).  An an analogy from yoga, it
could be likened to balancing  jnana yoga with bhakti yoga - thinking
and feeling, wisdom and compassion, passive and active.

What Pure Land practices do you engage in?

Thanks, ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW"  wrote:
>
> Hi Bill! Well, I am glad there are other crazy people! You know, I
can't really answer your question in a logical way. Of course I have
practiced with and talked to many people over the years who advocated
various approaches and view-points. I have also read a great deal. I
have also practiced continuously on my own. But I no longer believe that
anyone ever does anything "by themselves".

> There really is no such thing as "by themselves". I'll give you an
example from the Pureland story. It is said that in the Pureland
everything will teach one the Dharma. Birds even sing Dharma-Songs. The
Pureland is a place that is perfect for enlightenment. Of course, the
imagery of the Amitabha Sutra is lush and paradisical, but this is
symbolism. Much of the symbolism can be traced back to Idealistic
Buddhist Philosophy.
The Chinese Chan commentators on the Amitabha Sutra, such as Oui-I,
understood that The Pureland was a metaphor for The Purified Mind.

> You see, we are already in the Pureland, and everything here is
perfect for enlightenment, and everyone and everything is teaching us
the Dharma, if only we have the eyes to see and the ears to hear. That
is why Hakuin, upon his awakening, cried out, "This very body is the
body of Buddha, and this very land is The Pureland!" At every turn, Good
Friends, like you, appear to guide me on the never-ending (from the
relative view-point) journey. Even those experiences that others might
see as terrible have the hidden potential to enlighten, if only we look
deeply enough. Amitabha, The Infinite Enlightenment, is said to have two
assistants, Kwan Yin (Compassion) and Ta Shih Chih (Wisdom).

> Even in what might be regarded as awful circumstances Compassion and
Wisdom mysteriously appear to shine the Infinite Light of The Buddha.
IMO, The One Mind is playing a game of Hide and Seek with Itself through
us and all sentient beings. Of course this is just a way of talking
about what cannot be talked about. All language is more or less
misleading. IMO.

> Steve

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> Steve,  I agree with everything you have posted below and have in fact posted 
> the same over and over in this forum for years.
> 
> These are conclusions I arrived at myself, not ones I were taught - but as 
> you say there are hints and insinuations of these in many zen texts.  It 
> seems completely obvious to me now.  Of course the counter-argument to this 
> is that I just see/interpret what I want to see.
> 
> How did you arrive at these conclusions?  By yourself or through some 
> teaching - writings or in-person?
> 
> Thanks...Bill!
> 
 Hi Bill! Well, I am glad there are other crazy people! You know, I can't 
really answer your question in a logical way. Of course I have practiced with 
and talked to many people over the years who advocated various approaches and 
view-points. I have also read a great deal. I have also practiced continuously 
on my own. But I no longer believe that anyone ever does anything "by 
themselves". There really is no such thing as "by themselves". I'll give you an 
example from the Pureland story. It is said that in the Pureland everything 
will teach one the Dharma. Birds even sing Dharma-Songs. The Pureland is a 
place that is perfect for enlightenment. Of course, the imagery of the Amitabha 
Sutra is lush and paradisical, but this is symbolism. Much
of the symbolism can be traced back to Idealistic Buddhist Philosophy.
The Chinese Chan commentators on the Amitabha Sutra, such as Oui-I,
understood that The Pureland was a metaphor for The Purified Mind.
You see, we are already in the Pureland, and everything here is perfect for 
enlightenment, and everyone and everything is teaching us the Dharma, if only 
we have the eyes to see and the ears to hear. That is why Hakuin, upon his 
awakening, cried out, "This very body is the body of Buddha, and this very land 
is The Pureland!" At every turn, Good Friends, like you, appear to guide me on 
the never-ending (from the relative view-point) journey. Even those experiences 
that others might see as terrible have the hidden potential to enlighten, if 
only we look deeply enough. Amitabha, The Infinite Enlightenment, is said to 
have two assistants, Kwan Yin (Compassion) and Ta Shih Chih
(Wisdom). Even in what might be regarded as awful circumstances Compassion and 
Wisdom mysteriously appear to shine the Infinite Light of The Buddha. IMO, The 
One Mind is playing a game of Hide and Seek with Itself through us and all 
sentient beings. Of course this is just a way of talking about what cannot be 
talked about. All language is more or less misleading. IMO.
Steve





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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[ED]

I am esentially on the same wave-lengrh as you two.  --ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
Steve, I agree with everything you have posted below and have in fact
posted
the same over and over in this forum for years.

These are conclusions I arrived at myself, not ones I were taught - but
as you
say there are hints and insinuations of these in many zen texts. It
seems
completely obvious to me now. Of course the counter-argument to this is
that I
just see/interpret what I want to see.

How did you arrive at these conclusions? By yourself or through some
teaching -
writings or in-person?

Thanks...Bill!


> > Hi Bill! I was taught zazen initially by those Japanese Karate
sensei who
happened to follow Soto. I was taught pretty much as you say. We did use
the
seiza kneeling posture, but that is generally used in traditional
Karate-Do. I
agree with you in regards to karma.
> In my opinion, it is lower-level understanding, deriving from
common-sense
notions of time and causality that are valid only from the relative,
finite
point of view. This is tied-in with the Two Truths understanding.
Ultimately, in
my opinion, even The Twelve-Fold Chain of Dependant Origination is
illusiory,
but useful for practice from the relative view-point. You know, The
Heart Sutra
pretty much just comes out and says this, imo. In my opinion,
common-sense
notions of cause and effect are based upon the illusion of sequential
time. If,
as I believe, time is an illusion and only Now exists, then even the
doctrine of
sequential re-birth is an illusion. IMO, everything is happening now.
IMO, a lot
of Buddhist doctrines are upaya, useful fictions for practice. This is
one
conclusion I have come to after over 3 decades of watching my breathing,
not
only while sitting, but also in daily activity. However, I could be just
mistaken.
> Steve








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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Bill!]

Anthony,

Thanks for commenting on my post.  Humor is always welcome.

The only comment I have is that focusing on the hara is taught when beginning 
to learn to sit - used in a similar way as koans.  You are correct that in 
shikantaza there is no focusing, in fact it is a complete de-focusing.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Bill,
>  
> My following comment is a mixture of joke and seriousness:
>  
> You say: 
> I was taught to arch my tongue slightly so that it touches the roof of my 
> mouth, and create a slight vacuum in my mouth to keep it there.
>  
> To create a vacuum, you need to hold you tongue and seal it firmly. I 
> recommend silicone or polysulfide sealant to assist you. By the way, is this 
> technique necessary?
>  
> You say: 
> I was taught to focus my awareness on my 'hara', a spot on your belly about 
> 3-finger widths below your navel.
>  
> Is the focus necessary? Zen Master Seung Sahn says it is important only to be 
> alert and calm. Concentration or not is not essential. So one of his 
> technique is: saying to yourself, 'clear mind, clear mind...' when breathing 
> in; and 'don't know, don't know...' when breathing out. His ''keep a don't 
> know mind' is aimed at combatting discriminating, I think.
>  
> On the other hand, focusing is essential in Theravada Samadhi. They call it 
> one-pointedness. That is Sakymuni's original teaching on anapanasati.
>  
> You say:
> I wouldn't say Zen 'emphasizes' enlightenment in this lifetime, but it 
> certainly acknowledges that as a possibility.
>  
> Tibetan Tantra does emphasize enlightenment in this lifetime. They do it at 
> all costs, inclusing using a sex ritual. By the same token, you can get 
> enlightened in an orgyhouse. What a wonderful world.
>  
> Anthony
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 25/1/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 25 January, 2011, 3:23 PM
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deborah and JMJM,
> I'll insert my comments about what I was taught in my Japanese Zen Buddhist 
> training:
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 
> 覺妙精明  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Deborah,
> > 
> > Thank you for the question. I don't know Zen Buddhism enough to compare 
> > in detail. In words, I seem to sense that Chan and Zen are rather 
> > similar. The difference I noticed could be in the practice, such as 
> > some of the following:
> > 
> > Chan sit with eyes fully closed. Zen with half open.
> > Chan does not do walking. There is walking Zen.
> > Chan sit 45 to 60 minutes. Zen seems to be around 30 minutes.
> > Chan sit with tongue curled. There is no such mention in Zen.
> I was taught to arch my tongue slightly so that it touches the roof of my 
> mouth, and create a slight vacuum in my mouth to keep it there.
> > Chan sit flat on floor. Zen uses cushions.
> > Chan demand a minimum of half lotus. Not sure about Zen.
> I was taught any position is okay as long as it thrusts your hips forward and 
> keeps your back straight to free up your abdomen to promote belly-breathing, 
> and is reasonable comfortable.  Japanese do have a kneeling position that 
> they teach sometimes using a little stool to kind of half-sit on.
> 
> > Chan sit to focus on 10 chakras and 3 chi channels. Not sure about Zen.
> I was taught to focus my awareness on my 'hara', a spot on your belly about 
> 3-finger widths below your navel.
> > Chan emphasizes enlightenment in this life time. Not sure about Zen.
> I wouldn't say Zen 'emphasizes' enlightenment in this lifetime, but it 
> certainly acknowledges that as a possibility.
> > 
> > On the other hand, the Chan that I practice, may not be the Chan other 
> > Chinese lineage practice.
> > 
> > Yet I would emphasize, that everyone of us, who is practicing, is a 
> > blessed one, no matter which path we are on. Yet, the path that we are 
> > on are driven by our own karma.
> I was taught something pretty similar, but I now recognize the concept of 
> karma to be illusory.  But that's just me - not Zen Buddhism proper.
> > 
> > :-)
> > 
> > Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> > http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
> > http://www.heartchan.org
> > 
> > 
> > On 1/24/2011 7:59 PM, Deborah Mingins wrote:
> > > JMJM- can you tell us how Chan Buddhism an

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Bill!]

Steve,  I agree with everything you have posted below and have in fact posted 
the same over and over in this forum for years.

These are conclusions I arrived at myself, not ones I were taught - but as you 
say there are hints and insinuations of these in many zen texts.  It seems 
completely obvious to me now.  Of course the counter-argument to this is that I 
just see/interpret what I want to see.

How did you arrive at these conclusions?  By yourself or through some teaching 
- writings or in-person?

Thanks...Bill!

> > >
> >  Hi Bill! I was taught zazen initially by those Japanese Karate sensei who 
> > happened to follow Soto. I was taught pretty much as you say. We did use 
> > the seiza kneeling posture, but that is generally used in traditional 
> > Karate-Do. I agree with you in regards to karma. 
> In my opinion, it is lower-level understanding, deriving from common-sense 
> notions of time and causality that are valid only from the relative, finite 
> point of view. This is tied-in with the Two Truths understanding. Ultimately, 
> in my opinion, even The Twelve-Fold Chain of Dependant Origination is 
> illusiory, but useful for practice from the relative view-point. You know, 
> The Heart Sutra pretty much just comes out and says this, imo. In my opinion, 
> common-sense notions of cause and effect are based upon the illusion of 
> sequential time. If, as I believe, time is an illusion and only Now exists, 
> then even the doctrine of sequential re-birth is an illusion. IMO, everything 
> is happening now. IMO, a lot of Buddhist doctrines are upaya, useful fictions 
> for practice. This is one conclusion I have come to after over 3 decades of 
> watching my breathing, not only while sitting, but also in daily activity. 
> However, I could be just mistaken.
> Steve
>






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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,
 
My following comment is a mixture of joke and seriousness:
 
You say: 
I was taught to arch my tongue slightly so that it touches the roof of my 
mouth, and create a slight vacuum in my mouth to keep it there.
 
To create a vacuum, you need to hold you tongue and seal it firmly. I recommend 
silicone or polysulfide sealant to assist you. By the way, is this technique 
necessary?
 
You say: 
I was taught to focus my awareness on my 'hara', a spot on your belly about 
3-finger widths below your navel.
 
Is the focus necessary? Zen Master Seung Sahn says it is important only to be 
alert and calm. Concentration or not is not essential. So one of his technique 
is: saying to yourself, 'clear mind, clear mind...' when breathing in; and 
'don't know, don't know...' when breathing out. His ''keep a don't know mind' 
is aimed at combatting discriminating, I think.
 
On the other hand, focusing is essential in Theravada Samadhi. They call it 
one-pointedness. That is Sakymuni's original teaching on anapanasati.
 
You say:
I wouldn't say Zen 'emphasizes' enlightenment in this lifetime, but it 
certainly acknowledges that as a possibility.
 
Tibetan Tantra does emphasize enlightenment in this lifetime. They do it at all 
costs, inclusing using a sex ritual. By the same token, you can get enlightened 
in an orgyhouse. What a wonderful world.
 
Anthony


--- On Tue, 25/1/11, Bill!  wrote:


From: Bill! 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 25 January, 2011, 3:23 PM


  




Deborah and JMJM,
I'll insert my comments about what I was taught in my Japanese Zen Buddhist 
training:

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
 wrote:
>
> Hi Deborah,
> 
> Thank you for the question. I don't know Zen Buddhism enough to compare 
> in detail. In words, I seem to sense that Chan and Zen are rather 
> similar. The difference I noticed could be in the practice, such as 
> some of the following:
> 
> Chan sit with eyes fully closed. Zen with half open.
> Chan does not do walking. There is walking Zen.
> Chan sit 45 to 60 minutes. Zen seems to be around 30 minutes.
> Chan sit with tongue curled. There is no such mention in Zen.
I was taught to arch my tongue slightly so that it touches the roof of my 
mouth, and create a slight vacuum in my mouth to keep it there.
> Chan sit flat on floor. Zen uses cushions.
> Chan demand a minimum of half lotus. Not sure about Zen.
I was taught any position is okay as long as it thrusts your hips forward and 
keeps your back straight to free up your abdomen to promote belly-breathing, 
and is reasonable comfortable.  Japanese do have a kneeling position that they 
teach sometimes using a little stool to kind of half-sit on.

> Chan sit to focus on 10 chakras and 3 chi channels. Not sure about Zen.
I was taught to focus my awareness on my 'hara', a spot on your belly about 
3-finger widths below your navel.
> Chan emphasizes enlightenment in this life time. Not sure about Zen.
I wouldn't say Zen 'emphasizes' enlightenment in this lifetime, but it 
certainly acknowledges that as a possibility.
> 
> On the other hand, the Chan that I practice, may not be the Chan other 
> Chinese lineage practice.
> 
> Yet I would emphasize, that everyone of us, who is practicing, is a 
> blessed one, no matter which path we are on. Yet, the path that we are 
> on are driven by our own karma.
I was taught something pretty similar, but I now recognize the concept of karma 
to be illusory.  But that's just me - not Zen Buddhism proper.
> 
> :-)
> 
> Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
> http://www.heartchan.org
> 
> 
> On 1/24/2011 7:59 PM, Deborah Mingins wrote:
> > JMJM- can you tell us how Chan Buddhism and Zen Buddhism are 
> > different.thanksDeborah
> > taomtnsage1@... <mailto:taomtnsage1@...
> >
> > 
> > *From:* Deborah Mingins taomtnsage1@...
> > *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > *Sent:* Mon, January 24, 2011 3:58:42 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> >
> > To JMJM- You say that true practice begins after awakening. What is 
> > this true practice in Chan ie not Chan Buddhism
> > .taomtnsage1@... <mailto:.taomtnsage1@...
> >
> > 
> > *From:* Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@...
> > *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > *Sent:* Sun, January 23, 2011 11:41:00 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> >
> > I like some of the statements in this post. For me, I believe the 
> > truth is ins

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Anthony Wu]

JMJM,
 
You say:
the Chan that I practice, may not be the Chan other Chinese lineage practice.
 
That is closer to the truth. You had better call what you practice 'Heart 
Chan', so that there is no confusion, as 'Chan' in Chinese is a synonym of 
jhana or dhyana, that has a wide range of meanings.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 25/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 25 January, 2011, 2:24 PM


  



Hi Deborah,

Thank you for the question. I don't know Zen Buddhism enough to compare in 
detail.  In words, I seem to sense that Chan and Zen are rather similar.  The 
difference I noticed could be in the practice, such as some of the following:

Chan sit with eyes fully closed.  Zen with half open.
Chan does not do walking.  There is walking Zen.
Chan sit 45 to 60 minutes.  Zen seems to be around 30 minutes.
Chan sit with tongue curled.  There is no such mention in Zen.
Chan sit flat on floor.  Zen uses cushions.
Chan demand a minimum of half lotus.  Not sure about Zen.
Chan sit to focus on 10 chakras and 3 chi channels.  Not sure about Zen.
Chan emphasizes enlightenment in this life time.  Not sure about Zen.

On the other hand, the Chan that I practice, may not be the Chan other Chinese 
lineage practice.

Yet I would emphasize, that everyone of us, who is practicing, is a blessed 
one, no matter which path we are on.  Yet, the path that we are on are driven 
by our own karma.  

:-) 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 1/24/2011 7:59 PM, Deborah Mingins wrote: 
  


JMJM- can you tell us how Chan Buddhism and Zen Buddhism are 
different.thanksDeborah
 
taomtnsa...@yahoo.com





From: Deborah Mingins 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, January 24, 2011 3:58:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?



To JMJM- You say that true practice begins after awakening. What is this true 
practice in Chan ie not Chan  Buddhism 
.taomtnsa...@yahoo.com





From: Brett Corbin 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, January 23, 2011 11:41:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

  





I like some of the statements in this post.  For me, I believe the truth is 
inside us all.  I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to 
the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the 
truth within them selves.  I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, 
and my teacher said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or 
Jesus said that.  I believe that is why there is so much division in religions 
and belief systems.  I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in 
them, and not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would 
be why more unity in this world.   

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Sun, 1/23/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 7:57 PM




Hello Anthony,

My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since 
Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher 
of the  86th generations.

Are these titles meaningful?  Absolutely not.  Awakening got to arise from 
inside of us and not from words I posted.  All we have to do is to shut up, sit 
down and stop thinking.

My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is 
enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to.  In 
China, we call that Chan.  Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It 
was so without organization or structure.  

In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of 
Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism.

Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to 
state so.  We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking.

:-) 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/
http://www.heartchan.org/

On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: 
  






JM,
 
Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li 
Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door any 
moment, and teach you something better than Chan/
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 
chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM


  

Good Day To All,

My Teacher would say, "the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of 
Chan is not."

Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible 
and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the 
transient, the b

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> 
> Deborah and JMJM,
> 
> I'll insert my comments about what I was taught in my Japanese Zen
> Buddhist training:
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming -
> 覺妙精明  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Deborah,
> >
> > Thank you for the question. I don't know Zen Buddhism enough to
> compare
> > in detail. In words, I seem to sense that Chan and Zen are rather
> > similar. The difference I noticed could be in the practice, such as
> > some of the following:
> >
> > Chan sit with eyes fully closed. Zen with half open.
> > Chan does not do walking. There is walking Zen.
> > Chan sit 45 to 60 minutes. Zen seems to be around 30 minutes.
> > Chan sit with tongue curled. There is no such mention in Zen.
> 
> I was taught to arch my tongue slightly so that it touches the roof of
> my mouth, and create a slight vacuum in my mouth to keep it there.
> 
> > Chan sit flat on floor. Zen uses cushions.
> > Chan demand a minimum of half lotus. Not sure about Zen.
> 
> I was taught any position is okay as long as it thrusts your hips
> forward and keeps your back straight to free up your abdomen to promote
> belly-breathing, and is reasonable comfortable.  Japanese do have a
> kneeling position that they teach sometimes using a little stool to kind
> of half-sit on.
> 
> 
> > Chan sit to focus on 10 chakras and 3 chi channels. Not sure about
> Zen.
> 
> I was taught to focus my awareness on my 'hara', a spot on your belly
> about 3-finger widths below your navel.
> 
> > Chan emphasizes enlightenment in this life time. Not sure about Zen.
> 
> I wouldn't say Zen 'emphasizes' enlightenment in this lifetime, but it
> certainly acknowledges that as a possibility.
> 
> >
> > On the other hand, the Chan that I practice, may not be the Chan other
> > Chinese lineage practice.
> >
> > Yet I would emphasize, that everyone of us, who is practicing, is a
> > blessed one, no matter which path we are on. Yet, the path that we are
> > on are driven by our own karma.
> 
> I was taught something pretty similar, but I now recognize the concept
> of karma to be illusory.  But that's just me - not Zen Buddhism proper.
> 
> >
> > :-)
> >
>  Hi Bill! I was taught zazen initially by those Japanese Karate sensei who 
> happened to follow Soto. I was taught pretty much as you say. We did use the 
> seiza kneeling posture, but that is generally used in traditional Karate-Do. 
> I agree with you in regards to karma. 
In my opinion, it is lower-level understanding, deriving from common-sense 
notions of time and causality that are valid only from the relative, finite 
point of view. This is tied-in with the Two Truths understanding. Ultimately, 
in my opinion, even The Twelve-Fold Chain of Dependant Origination is 
illusiory, but useful for practice from the relative view-point. You know, The 
Heart Sutra pretty much just comes out and says this, imo. In my opinion, 
common-sense notions of cause and effect are based upon the illusion of 
sequential time. If, as I believe, time is an illusion and only Now exists, 
then even the doctrine of sequential re-birth is an illusion. IMO, everything 
is happening now. IMO, a lot of Buddhist doctrines are upaya, useful fictions 
for practice. This is one conclusion I have come to after over 3 decades of 
watching my breathing, not only while sitting, but also in daily activity. 
However, I could be just mistaken.
Steve
















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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Maria Lopez]

Bill Wrote:
"...Japanese do have a kneeling position that they teach sometimes using a 
little stool to kind of half-sit on".
---
Just would like to share that, When I start to sit down the only instruction I 
was given was to sit down in the stool as comfortable as I could with straight 
back.  After a few sessions of sitting down the same fruits of the practise in 
the form of awareness showed me the way of sitting down by itself. However, due 
to a physical knock down of my body due to a condition I was unable to sit down 
in that stool for many years.  I can sit down back now and I didn't have to go 
through any sessions in order to gain the correct posture.  I can do it 
straight away.  No one told me but the practise of awareness did it.
 
Mayka
 
 
--- On Tue, 25/1/11, Bill!  wrote:


From: Bill! 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 25 January, 2011, 7:23


  




Deborah and JMJM,
I'll insert my comments about what I was taught in my Japanese Zen Buddhist 
training:

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
 wrote:
>
> Hi Deborah,
> 
> Thank you for the question. I don't know Zen Buddhism enough to compare 
> in detail. In words, I seem to sense that Chan and Zen are rather 
> similar. The difference I noticed could be in the practice, such as 
> some of the following:
> 
> Chan sit with eyes fully closed. Zen with half open.
> Chan does not do walking. There is walking Zen.
> Chan sit 45 to 60 minutes. Zen seems to be around 30 minutes.
> Chan sit with tongue curled. There is no such mention in Zen.
I was taught to arch my tongue slightly so that it touches the roof of my 
mouth, and create a slight vacuum in my mouth to keep it there.
> Chan sit flat on floor. Zen uses cushions.
> Chan demand a minimum of half lotus. Not sure about Zen.
I was taught any position is okay as long as it thrusts your hips forward and 
keeps your back straight to free up your abdomen to promote belly-breathing, 
and is reasonable comfortable.  Japanese do have a kneeling position that they 
teach sometimes using a little stool to kind of half-sit on.

> Chan sit to focus on 10 chakras and 3 chi channels. Not sure about Zen.
I was taught to focus my awareness on my 'hara', a spot on your belly about 
3-finger widths below your navel.
> Chan emphasizes enlightenment in this life time. Not sure about Zen.
I wouldn't say Zen 'emphasizes' enlightenment in this lifetime, but it 
certainly acknowledges that as a possibility.
> 
> On the other hand, the Chan that I practice, may not be the Chan other 
> Chinese lineage practice.
> 
> Yet I would emphasize, that everyone of us, who is practicing, is a 
> blessed one, no matter which path we are on. Yet, the path that we are 
> on are driven by our own karma.
I was taught something pretty similar, but I now recognize the concept of karma 
to be illusory.  But that's just me - not Zen Buddhism proper.
> 
> :-)
> 
> Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
> http://www.heartchan.org
> 
> 
> On 1/24/2011 7:59 PM, Deborah Mingins wrote:
> > JMJM- can you tell us how Chan Buddhism and Zen Buddhism are 
> > different.thanksDeborah
> > taomtnsage1@... <mailto:taomtnsage1@...
> >
> > ------------
> > *From:* Deborah Mingins taomtnsage1@...
> > *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > *Sent:* Mon, January 24, 2011 3:58:42 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> >
> > To JMJM- You say that true practice begins after awakening. What is 
> > this true practice in Chan ie not Chan Buddhism
> > .taomtnsage1@... <mailto:.taomtnsage1@...
> >
> > 
> > *From:* Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@...
> > *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > *Sent:* Sun, January 23, 2011 11:41:00 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> >
> > I like some of the statements in this post. For me, I believe the 
> > truth is inside us all. I feel the reason so many miss the truth is 
> > due to the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then 
> > finding the truth within them selves. I hear a lot of people saying, 
> > my teacher said this, and my teacher said that, or a book said this or 
> > that, or Buddha said this or Jesus said that. I believe that is why 
> > there is so much division in religions and belief systems. I feel if 
> > people listened to the truth that is already in them, and not so much 
> > to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, t

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Bill!]

Deborah and JMJM,

I'll insert my comments about what I was taught in my Japanese Zen
Buddhist training:


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming -
覺妙精明  wrote:
>
> Hi Deborah,
>
> Thank you for the question. I don't know Zen Buddhism enough to
compare
> in detail. In words, I seem to sense that Chan and Zen are rather
> similar. The difference I noticed could be in the practice, such as
> some of the following:
>
> Chan sit with eyes fully closed. Zen with half open.
> Chan does not do walking. There is walking Zen.
> Chan sit 45 to 60 minutes. Zen seems to be around 30 minutes.
> Chan sit with tongue curled. There is no such mention in Zen.

I was taught to arch my tongue slightly so that it touches the roof of
my mouth, and create a slight vacuum in my mouth to keep it there.

> Chan sit flat on floor. Zen uses cushions.
> Chan demand a minimum of half lotus. Not sure about Zen.

I was taught any position is okay as long as it thrusts your hips
forward and keeps your back straight to free up your abdomen to promote
belly-breathing, and is reasonable comfortable.  Japanese do have a
kneeling position that they teach sometimes using a little stool to kind
of half-sit on.


> Chan sit to focus on 10 chakras and 3 chi channels. Not sure about
Zen.

I was taught to focus my awareness on my 'hara', a spot on your belly
about 3-finger widths below your navel.

> Chan emphasizes enlightenment in this life time. Not sure about Zen.

I wouldn't say Zen 'emphasizes' enlightenment in this lifetime, but it
certainly acknowledges that as a possibility.

>
> On the other hand, the Chan that I practice, may not be the Chan other
> Chinese lineage practice.
>
> Yet I would emphasize, that everyone of us, who is practicing, is a
> blessed one, no matter which path we are on. Yet, the path that we are
> on are driven by our own karma.

I was taught something pretty similar, but I now recognize the concept
of karma to be illusory.  But that's just me - not Zen Buddhism proper.

>
> :-)
>
> Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
> http://www.heartchan.org
>
>
> On 1/24/2011 7:59 PM, Deborah Mingins wrote:
> > JMJM- can you tell us how Chan Buddhism and Zen Buddhism are
> > different.thanksDeborah
> > taomtnsage1@... <mailto:taomtnsage1@...
> >
> >
------------
> > *From:* Deborah Mingins taomtnsage1@...
> > *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > *Sent:* Mon, January 24, 2011 3:58:42 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> >
> > To JMJM- You say that true practice begins after awakening. What is
> > this true practice in Chan ie not Chan Buddhism
> > .taomtnsage1@... <mailto:.taomtnsage1@...
> >
> >
----
> > *From:* Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@...
> > *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > *Sent:* Sun, January 23, 2011 11:41:00 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> >
> > I like some of the statements in this post. For me, I believe the
> > truth is inside us all. I feel the reason so many miss the truth is
> > due to the following of others interpretation of the truth rather
then
> > finding the truth within them selves. I hear a lot of people saying,
> > my teacher said this, and my teacher said that, or a book said this
or
> > that, or Buddha said this or Jesus said that. I believe that is why
> > there is so much division in religions and belief systems. I feel if
> > people listened to the truth that is already in them, and not so
much
> > to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would be why more
> > unity in this world.
> >
> > Brett
> > http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> >
> > --- On *Sun, 1/23/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
> > /chan.jmjm@.../* wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@...
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 7:57 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello Anthony,
> >
> > My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th
> > Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of
> > LinJie. I am the Head Teacher of the 86th generations.
> >
> > Are these titles meaningful? Absolutely not. Awakening got to
> > arise from inside of us and not from words I posted. All we have
> > to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking.
> >
> > My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which
> > Shakyam

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

Hi Deborah,

Thank you for the question. I don't know Zen Buddhism enough to compare 
in detail.  In words, I seem to sense that Chan and Zen are rather 
similar.  The difference I noticed could be in the practice, such as 
some of the following:


Chan sit with eyes fully closed.  Zen with half open.
Chan does not do walking.  There is walking Zen.
Chan sit 45 to 60 minutes.  Zen seems to be around 30 minutes.
Chan sit with tongue curled.  There is no such mention in Zen.
Chan sit flat on floor.  Zen uses cushions.
Chan demand a minimum of half lotus.  Not sure about Zen.
Chan sit to focus on 10 chakras and 3 chi channels.  Not sure about Zen.
Chan emphasizes enlightenment in this life time.  Not sure about Zen.

On the other hand, the Chan that I practice, may not be the Chan other 
Chinese lineage practice.


Yet I would emphasize, that everyone of us, who is practicing, is a 
blessed one, no matter which path we are on.  Yet, the path that we are 
on are driven by our own karma.


:-)

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 1/24/2011 7:59 PM, Deborah Mingins wrote:
JMJM- can you tell us how Chan Buddhism and Zen Buddhism are 
different.thanksDeborah

taomtnsa...@yahoo.com <mailto:taomtnsa...@yahoo.com>


*From:* Deborah Mingins 
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Mon, January 24, 2011 3:58:42 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

To JMJM- You say that true practice begins after awakening. What is 
this true practice in Chan ie not Chan  Buddhism

.taomtnsa...@yahoo.com <mailto:.taomtnsa...@yahoo.com>


*From:* Brett Corbin 
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Sun, January 23, 2011 11:41:00 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

I like some of the statements in this post.  For me, I believe the 
truth is inside us all.  I feel the reason so many miss the truth is 
due to the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then 
finding the truth within them selves.  I hear a lot of people saying, 
my teacher said this, and my teacher said that, or a book said this or 
that, or Buddha said this or Jesus said that.  I believe that is why 
there is so much division in religions and belief systems.  I feel if 
people listened to the truth that is already in them, and not so much 
to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would be why more 
unity in this world.


Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On *Sun, 1/23/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
//* wrote:



From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
    Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 7:57 PM



Hello Anthony,

My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th
Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of
LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher of the  86th generations.

Are these titles meaningful?  Absolutely not.  Awakening got to
arise from inside of us and not from words I posted.  All we have
to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking.

My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which
Shakyamuni is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to
be enlightened to.  In China, we call that Chan.  Chan has been in
China far longer than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or
structure.

In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal
truth of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism.

Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has
continuously to state so.  We all can, as long as we sit down,
shut up and stop thinking.

:-)

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/
http://www.heartchan.org/


On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

JM,
Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person'
claims so. Mr Li Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the
USA. He may knock on your door any moment, and teach you
something better than Chan/
Anthony

--- On *Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
/
<http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com>/*
wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
<http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com>
Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com

<http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zenliv...@yahoogroups.com>,
Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

<http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>,
chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com

<http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sunday, 23 January, 201

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

Thanks for the advice Bill, I will give it some thought:)

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Mon, 1/24/11, Bill!  wrote:


From: Bill! 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 7:51 PM


Brett,

Stop thinking and sit (zazen)...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Got me thinking on that one Ed.
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
> --- On Mon, 1/24/11, ED  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: ED 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 6:28 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> "What is truth asked jesting Pilate and he did not wait for an answer."  
> --Sir Francis Bacon
>  
> John chapter 18, verse 38 of the Gospel of John, is often referred to as 
> "jesting Pilate" or "Truth? What is truth?", of Latin: Quid est veritas?. In 
> it, Pontius Pilate questions Jesus' claim that he is "witness to the truth" 
> (John 18:37). He then proclaims to the masses (lit., "the Jews" referring to 
> the Jewish authorities) that he does not consider Jesus guilty of any 
> crime.   (Wiki)
>  
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
> >
> > For me, I believe the truth is inside us all.
>  
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links






  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Deborah Mingins]

JMJM- can you tell us how Chan Buddhism and Zen Buddhism are 
different.thanksDeborah

taomtnsa...@yahoo.com





From: Deborah Mingins 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, January 24, 2011 3:58:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?


To JMJM- You say that true practice begins after awakening. What is this true 
practice in Chan ie not Chan  Buddhism 
.taomtnsa...@yahoo.com





From: Brett Corbin 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, January 23, 2011 11:41:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

  
I like some of the statements in this post.  For me, I believe the truth is 
inside us all.  I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to 
the following 
of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the truth within them 
selves.  I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, and my teacher 
said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or Jesus said 
that.  
I believe that is why there is so much division in religions and belief 
systems.  I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in them, and 
not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would be why more 
unity in this world.   

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Sun, 1/23/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


>From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 7:57 PM
>
>
>
>
>Hello Anthony,
>
>My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since 
>Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher 
>of 
>the  86th generations.
>
>Are these titles meaningful?  Absolutely not.  Awakening got to arise from 
>inside of us and not from words I posted.  All we have to do is to shut up, 
>sit 
>down and stop thinking.
>
>My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is 
>enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to.  In 
>China, 
>we call that Chan.  Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It was 
>so 
>without organization or structure.  
>
>
>In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of 
>Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism.
>
>Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to 
>state so.  We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking.
>
>:-) 
>
>Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ 
>http://www.heartchan.org/ 
>
>On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: 
>  
>>JM,
>>
>>Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li 
>>Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door 
>>any 
>>moment, and teach you something better than Chan/
>>
>>Anthony
>>
>>--- On Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
>>>Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
>>>To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 
>>>chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com
>>>Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>Good Day To All,
>>>
>>>My Teacher would say, "the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of 
>>>Chan is not."
>>>
>>>Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible 
>>>and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the 
>>>transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature. It is 
>>>always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as 
>>>integrating.
>>>
>>>Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed the 
>>>truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching.
>>>
>>>All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are part 
>>>of universe and contains the same nature of the universe. This is also 
>>>the nature of man and of all beings big and small.
>>>
>>>Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My Teacher often 
>>>remind us, "True practice begins after awakening."
>>>
>>>We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically, mentally 
>>>and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception, 
>>>preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with our 
>>>original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to integrate.
>>>
>>>This is what I was taught and have witnessed.
>>>
>>>Thank you for your time.
>>>JMJM
>>>
>>>-- 
>>>Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
>>>http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/
>>>http://www.heartchan.org/
>>>
>>> 
>>

 





  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Bill!]

Brett,

Stop thinking and sit (zazen)...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Got me thinking on that one Ed.
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
> --- On Mon, 1/24/11, ED  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: ED 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 6:28 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> "What is truth asked jesting Pilate and he did not wait for an answer."  
> --Sir Francis Bacon
>  
> John chapter 18, verse 38 of the Gospel of John, is often referred to as 
> "jesting Pilate" or "Truth? What is truth?", of Latin: Quid est veritas?. In 
> it, Pontius Pilate questions Jesus' claim that he is "witness to the truth" 
> (John 18:37). He then proclaims to the masses (lit., "the Jews" referring to 
> the Jewish authorities) that he does not consider Jesus guilty of any 
> crime.   (Wiki)
>  
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
> >
> > For me, I believe the truth is inside us all.
>  
>






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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?(to Kristy/Brett/list)

[Brett Corbin]

Thank you for the feedback Mel.

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Mon, 1/24/11, Mel  wrote:


From: Mel 
Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?(to Kristy/Brett/list)
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 5:17 PM


--- On Mon, 24/1/11, Kristy McClain  wrote:
 
K: I think its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that 
can bring the division.

MEL: Yes, that is quiet so. However, I'm quite open about it, but I'm actually 
attached to the work ZEN MIND BEGINNER'S MIND by Shunryu Suzuki-sensei. It has 
become something of a 'zen bible' for me, so to speak. Many would regard this 
as heresy, but I have such attachment as the basis of my Zen beliefs. Before 
this, I was very much attached to Deshimaru-sensei's works such as A QUESTION 
TO A ZEN MASTER. His humour made me laugh, but I didn't really feel as if I 
really got anywhere in everyday life. Everyday life is still something I 
struggle with despite the meditative practices. Nevertheless, I keep pursuing 
this path of mine 

K: My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their journey by  
doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group.  

MEL: Being right in the middle of rat-race surrounded by corporate-minded and 
religiously materialistic and dualistic people meant that I had no real chance 
of being part of a group or accessing a teacher from the very beginning. I can 
count only one experience where an actual believing Buddhist actually brought 
light within me concerning practise. I wouldn't describe the experience as 
Nirvana as such, but the young boy concerned certainly brought light to the 
darkness within me

As for being part of a group, that could never be. From my experience, nobody 
but the Soto Zen priest in one temple I went to for a while talked about the 
teachings. I got the impression that everybody was afraid to be seen as 
egotistical in any manner or sense by volunteering information...which is why I 
rely a lot on reading materials such as the book above 

K: Exploring  within as they are guided. Supposedly  then, one  has gained 
enough inner clarity so those  other things are  unnecessary. 

MEL: Yep, that's me as well 

K: For myself, I began a zen learning-curve , and practice around 1990.

MEL: Hey, that's about the same time I started as well, and I was in my late 
20s then. My original aim was simply to understand the teachings behind A BOOK 
OF 5 RINGS by Miyamoto Musashi so I could improve my karate practise, but to do 
that required experience and much soul-searching through not only zazen but Zen 
living. Some people may say that I may have gone too far to be a good and 
dedicated karate student because I ended up studyintg the HAGAKURE, history of 
the Samurai families, Bushido, and the rise and fall of Imperial 
Japan...amongst other things, which I believe to this day are better understood 
with a background in Zen

K: But even  there, I am far more guided by the  yoga limbs , than by many of 
the theological  teachings of buddhism.

MEL: I've become quite hesitant and even suspicious of the theological side of 
Buddhism for quite some time, but I decided to turn around and test the waters 
once more. Perhaps such things as sutra chanting and reading, bead counting, 
the teachings of love for one's fellow beings, and much more may have place in 
my life, right along and beside that much more rigid and uncompromising 
ronin-like attitude I've had for years
 
K: I feel that there can be great value in  a spiritual path, or even quest. 
But, I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. 

MEL: Others might, but I won't deny such. I confess to the above

K: Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their butts, and 
practice what they preach?  

MEL: I've been sort of preaching(verbal) myself but I've put a complete stop to 
it. Some would say that preaching itself through word and practise is one of 
the vows of the bodhisattva but the line between that ego and the pure spirit 
can become blurred in my case

--- On Sun, 1/23/11, Brett Corbin  wrote:

B: I believe the truth is inside us all.  

MEL: Yes, and somehow Man refuses to listen to it

B: I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to the following of others 
interpretation of the truth rather then finding the truth within them selves.  

MEL: I agree. I use such things as books and other reading material outside of 
zazen practise, but then be guided afterwards by that gut instinct within

Buddha be praised 

in peace
Mel
gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au








      




Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links






  

[Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?(to Kristy/Brett/list)

[Mel]

--- On Mon, 24/1/11, Kristy McClain  wrote:
 
K: I think its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that 
can bring the division.

MEL: Yes, that is quiet so. However, I'm quite open about it, but I'm actually 
attached to the work ZEN MIND BEGINNER'S MIND by Shunryu Suzuki-sensei. It has 
become something of a 'zen bible' for me, so to speak. Many would regard this 
as heresy, but I have such attachment as the basis of my Zen beliefs. Before 
this, I was very much attached to Deshimaru-sensei's works such as A QUESTION 
TO A ZEN MASTER. His humour made me laugh, but I didn't really feel as if I 
really got anywhere in everyday life. Everyday life is still something I 
struggle with despite the meditative practices. Nevertheless, I keep pursuing 
this path of mine 

K: My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their journey by  
doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group.  

MEL: Being right in the middle of rat-race surrounded by corporate-minded and 
religiously materialistic and dualistic people meant that I had no real chance 
of being part of a group or accessing a teacher from the very beginning. I can 
count only one experience where an actual believing Buddhist actually brought 
light within me concerning practise. I wouldn't describe the experience as 
Nirvana as such, but the young boy concerned certainly brought light to the 
darkness within me

As for being part of a group, that could never be. From my experience, nobody 
but the Soto Zen priest in one temple I went to for a while talked about the 
teachings. I got the impression that everybody was afraid to be seen as 
egotistical in any manner or sense by volunteering information...which is why I 
rely a lot on reading materials such as the book above 

K: Exploring  within as they are guided. Supposedly  then, one  has gained 
enough inner clarity so those  other things are  unnecessary. 

MEL: Yep, that's me as well 

K: For myself, I began a zen learning-curve , and practice around 1990.

MEL: Hey, that's about the same time I started as well, and I was in my late 
20s then. My original aim was simply to understand the teachings behind A BOOK 
OF 5 RINGS by Miyamoto Musashi so I could improve my karate practise, but to do 
that required experience and much soul-searching through not only zazen but Zen 
living. Some people may say that I may have gone too far to be a good and 
dedicated karate student because I ended up studyintg the HAGAKURE, history of 
the Samurai families, Bushido, and the rise and fall of Imperial 
Japan...amongst other things, which I believe to this day are better understood 
with a background in Zen

K: But even  there, I am far more guided by the  yoga limbs , than by many of 
the theological  teachings of buddhism.

MEL: I've become quite hesitant and even suspicious of the theological side of 
Buddhism for quite some time, but I decided to turn around and test the waters 
once more. Perhaps such things as sutra chanting and reading, bead counting, 
the teachings of love for one's fellow beings, and much more may have place in 
my life, right along and beside that much more rigid and uncompromising 
ronin-like attitude I've had for years
 
K: I feel that there can be great value in  a spiritual path, or even quest. 
But, I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. 

MEL: Others might, but I won't deny such. I confess to the above

K: Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their butts, and 
practice what they preach?  

MEL: I've been sort of preaching(verbal) myself but I've put a complete stop to 
it. Some would say that preaching itself through word and practise is one of 
the vows of the bodhisattva but the line between that ego and the pure spirit 
can become blurred in my case

--- On Sun, 1/23/11, Brett Corbin  wrote:

B: I believe the truth is inside us all.  

MEL: Yes, and somehow Man refuses to listen to it

B: I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to the following of others 
interpretation of the truth rather then finding the truth within them selves.  

MEL: I agree. I use such things as books and other reading material outside of 
zazen practise, but then be guided afterwards by that gut instinct within

Buddha be praised 

in peace
Mel
gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au








  




Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
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zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroup

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Anthony Wu]

JMJM,

You say, Just ignore me.

No, I can't ignore you.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 25/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 25 January, 2011, 7:37 AM







 



  



  
  
  

  
  
Anthony,



Please translate the book I emailed to you from Chinese into English
and post to this question of yours for the benefit of the group.



Then you can either accept this version or reject it.  The choice is
yours.  I do like to recommend to you, please be detached from all
forms, especially words. 『文字相』。Diamond Sutra said it very clearly,
"Be detached from the Form of Dharma."



As I said in my other posts, even in the school of Chan Buddhism,
there are differences in teaching and more so in practice.  I am not
trying to convince you of anything.  I am just sharing my personal
witness.  



Nothing is absolute.  Words has no value until you can connect to
it. Nothing I have posted has any value until you begin practice
it.  Just ignore me.  Okay?



JM

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org



On 1/24/2011 2:47 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

   
  
  

  

  

  JMJM,
   
  You say: Chan has been in China far longer
than Shakymuni.
   
  Please present proof.
   
  Anthony



--- On Mon, 24/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming -
  覺妙精明 
wrote:

  
  

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明


    Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 11:57 AM



 
  
Hello Anthony,

  

  My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue
  MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since
  Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and
  48th of LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher of
  the  86th generations.

  

  Are these titles meaningful?  Absolutely
  not.  Awakening got to arise from inside
  of us and not from words I posted.  All we
  have to do is to shut up, sit down and
  stop thinking.

  

  My Teacher is enlightened to the same
  universal truth, which Shakyamuni is
  enlightened to, which he also teaches all
  of us to be enlightened to.  In China, we
  call that Chan.  Chan has been in China
  far longer than Shakymuni. It was so
  without organization or structure.  

  

  In other words, all of us can be
  enlightened to the same universal truth of
  Chan, with or without a journey through
  Buddhism.

  

  Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the
  same truth, as he has continuously to
  state so.  We all can, as long as we sit
  down, shut up and stop thinking.

  

  :-)


  Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

  

  On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:
   

  

  

  
JM,
 
Is your teacher higher
  than

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Anthony Wu]

JMJM,
 
As long as you don't shut up, I will continue to talk. Your words are full of 
discrepencies. But who cares? Mao Zedong says that without discrepancies there 
is no life.
 
Thank you for giving us a lot of fun. Lets both enjoy it.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 25/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 25 January, 2011, 7:44 AM


  



Dear Anthony,

The truth is not in words.  Buddha said that.  Chan is taught without words.  
Buddha said that.  

Chan is an experience.  Diamond Sutra stated very clearly, "All describable 
dharma is not it."

"Chan is the universe" is the closest that my witness is.  Additonally, witness 
Chan is based on having universal Chi, without it, there is no witness.  This 
is also my witness.

What is yours?

How does your apple taste like?

Anthony, Pleeeaaase, Shut up, Sit down, Stop thinking, Start breathing.  LOL

:-) 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 1/24/2011 3:28 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: 
  






JMJM,
 
You say: 
My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since 
Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher 
of the  86th generations.

The lineages are impressive. But what do you have in common with Sakyamuni and 
Bodhidharma or Linji? Did either of them say Chan is equal to the whole 
universe?
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 24/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 11:57 AM


  

Hello Anthony,

My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since 
Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher 
of the  86th generations.

Are these titles meaningful?  Absolutely not.  Awakening got to arise from 
inside of us and not from words I posted.  All we have to do is to shut up, sit 
down and stop thinking.

My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is 
enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to.  In 
China, we call that Chan.  Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It 
was so without organization or structure.  

In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of 
Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism.

Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to 
state so.  We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking.

:-) 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: 
  






JM,
 
Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li 
Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door any 
moment, and teach you something better than Chan/
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 
chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM


  

Good Day To All,

My Teacher would say, "the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of 
Chan is not."

Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible 
and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the 
transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature. It is 
always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as 
integrating.

Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed the 
truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching.

All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are part 
of universe and contains the same nature of the universe. This is also 
the nature of man and of all beings big and small.

Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My Teacher often 
remind us, "True practice begins after awakening."

We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically, mentally 
and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception, 
preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with our 
original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to integrate.

This is what I was taught and have witnessed.

Thank you for your time.
JMJM

-- 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

Dear Anthony,

The truth is not in words.  Buddha said that.  Chan is taught without 
words.  Buddha said that.


Chan is an experience.  Diamond Sutra stated very clearly, "All 
describable dharma is not it."


"Chan is the universe" is the closest that my witness is.  Additonally, 
witness Chan is based on having universal Chi, without it, there is no 
witness.  This is also my witness.


What is yours?

How does your apple taste like?

Anthony, Pleeeaaase, Shut up, Sit down, Stop thinking, Start breathing.  LOL

:-)

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 1/24/2011 3:28 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:


JMJM,
You say:
My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th 
Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of 
LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher of the  86th generations.
The lineages are impressive. But what do you have in common with 
Sakyamuni and Bodhidharma or Linji? Did either of them say Chan is 
equal to the whole universe?

Anthony

--- On *Mon, 24/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
//* wrote:



From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
    Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 11:57 AM

Hello Anthony,

My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th
Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of
LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher of the  86th generations.

Are these titles meaningful?  Absolutely not.  Awakening got to
arise from inside of us and not from words I posted.  All we have
to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking.

My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which
Shakyamuni is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to
be enlightened to.  In China, we call that Chan.  Chan has been in
China far longer than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or
structure.

In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal
truth of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism.

Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has
continuously to state so.  We all can, as long as we sit down,
shut up and stop thinking.

:-)

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com  <http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/>
http://www.heartchan.org  <http://www.heartchan.org/>


On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

JM,
Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person'
claims so. Mr Li Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the
USA. He may knock on your door any moment, and teach you
something better than Chan/
Anthony

--- On *Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
/
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com>/*
wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com>
Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com

<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zenliv...@yahoogroups.com>,
Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>,
chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com

<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM

Good Day To All,

My Teacher would say, "the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the
witness of
Chan is not."

Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including
the visible
and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and
the
transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its
nature. It is
always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as
well as
integrating.

Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all
witnessed the
truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching.

All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all
are part
of universe and contains the same nature of the universe.
This is also
the nature of man and of all beings big and small.

Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My
Teacher often
remind us, "True practice begins after awakening."

We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely,
physically, mentally
and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception,
preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with
our
original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to
integrate.

This is what I was taught and have witnessed.

Thank you for yo

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

Anthony,

Please translate the book I emailed to you from Chinese into English and 
post to this question of yours for the benefit of the group.


Then you can either accept this version or reject it.  The choice is 
yours.  I do like to recommend to you, please be detached from all 
forms, especially words. 『文字相』。Diamond Sutra said it very clearly, 
"Be detached from the Form of Dharma."


As I said in my other posts, even in the school of Chan Buddhism, there 
are differences in teaching and more so in practice.  I am not trying to 
convince you of anything.  I am just sharing my personal witness.


Nothing is absolute.  Words has no value until you can connect to it. 
Nothing I have posted has any value until you begin practice it.  Just 
ignore me.  Okay?


JM

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 1/24/2011 2:47 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:


JMJM,
You say: Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni.
Please present proof.
Anthony

--- On *Mon, 24/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
//* wrote:



From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 11:57 AM

Hello Anthony,

My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th
Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of
LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher of the  86th generations.

Are these titles meaningful?  Absolutely not.  Awakening got to
arise from inside of us and not from words I posted.  All we have
to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking.

My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which
Shakyamuni is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to
be enlightened to.  In China, we call that Chan.  Chan has been in
China far longer than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or
structure.

In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal
truth of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism.

Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has
continuously to state so.  We all can, as long as we sit down,
shut up and stop thinking.

:-)

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com  <http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/>
http://www.heartchan.org  <http://www.heartchan.org/>


On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

JM,
Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person'
claims so. Mr Li Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the
USA. He may knock on your door any moment, and teach you
something better than Chan/
Anthony

--- On *Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
/
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com>/*
wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com>
Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com

<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zenliv...@yahoogroups.com>,
Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>,
chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com

<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM

Good Day To All,

My Teacher would say, "the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the
witness of
Chan is not."

Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including
the visible
and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and
the
transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its
nature. It is
always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as
well as
integrating.

Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all
witnessed the
truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching.

All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all
are part
of universe and contains the same nature of the universe.
This is also
the nature of man and of all beings big and small.

Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My
Teacher often
remind us, "True practice begins after awakening."

We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely,
physically, mentally
and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception,
preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with
our
original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to
integrate.

This is what I was taught and have witnessed.

Thank you for your time.
JMJM

-- 
 

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Anthony Wu]

JMJM,
 
You say: 
My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since 
Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher 
of the  86th generations.

The lineages are impressive. But what do you have in common with Sakyamuni and 
Bodhidharma or Linji? Did either of them say Chan is equal to the whole 
universe?
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 24/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 11:57 AM


  



Hello Anthony,

My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since 
Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher 
of the  86th generations.

Are these titles meaningful?  Absolutely not.  Awakening got to arise from 
inside of us and not from words I posted.  All we have to do is to shut up, sit 
down and stop thinking.

My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is 
enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to.  In 
China, we call that Chan.  Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It 
was so without organization or structure.  

In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of 
Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism.

Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to 
state so.  We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking.

:-) 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: 
  






JM,
 
Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li 
Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door any 
moment, and teach you something better than Chan/
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 
chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM


  

Good Day To All,

My Teacher would say, "the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of 
Chan is not."

Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible 
and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the 
transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature. It is 
always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as 
integrating.

Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed the 
truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching.

All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are part 
of universe and contains the same nature of the universe. This is also 
the nature of man and of all beings big and small.

Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My Teacher often 
remind us, "True practice begins after awakening."

We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically, mentally 
and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception, 
preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with our 
original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to integrate.

This is what I was taught and have witnessed.

Thank you for your time.
JMJM

-- 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

Thank you Steve, I liked that story very much, and see a lot of truth in it.

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Mon, 1/24/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 3:03 PM




--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Before I started practicing meditation, I had hard time dealing with problems 
> in my life.  The problem, what ever they were, would run through my mind over 
> and over again, and I would talk about it over and over again.  People would 
> tell me to not let it get to me so much, and just let it go, but to tell you 
> the truth, I didn't now how to do that.  I would try to fix the problems, and 
> most of the time, my emotions would get the best of me.  It felt like I was 
> trying to break down a brick wall with my head, I was not getting any where, 
> and I was hurting myself in the process.  I was living in the past, and 
> dreading the future.  This went on for many years, till the point that I felt 
> I was having an emotional breakdown.  I turned to councilors, churches, 
> books and to God.  And to some degree these helped, and I learned things from 
> these sources, but the way I responded to problem, was my problem, and that I 
> was looking to everyone, and
 everything
>  else to find a solution to my torment.  The meditation for me has been a 
>life saver.  Almost instantly I found balance in my life. Not to say I am at 
>some place of bliss in my life, but the change in me is amazing.  People who 
>know me say I am like a different person.  I am sorry for going on like that, 
>I guess I needed to share that with new cyber space group members:)  
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
> Wei Wu Wei commented that its ironic that we spend so much time and energy 
> defending, protecting and worrying about our ego when there isn't one. And 
> its ironic that we spend so much time and energy obsessing about the past and 
> the future when only now exists. 
A tormented man stands in the snow outside the gates of the Shao-Lin
temple holding aloft his severed arm and cries out in anguish, 
"Master! My mind is never at peace! Please pacify my mind!" 
Bodhidharma appears at the gate and says, "How very strange! Please
bring it over here so that I may look at it." "I try to grasp it",
cries the seeker, "but I cannot find it in order to hold it!"
"There!" shouts Bodhidharma, "I have pacified your mind!"
In that little space between inhalation and exhalation is The Center,
which is always right here, right now.
"Do not listen with your ears, but with your mind.
Do not listen with your mind, but with your breath. 
The function of the ear ends with sounds.
The function of the mind ends with symbols and ideas.
But in the breath is an emptiness ready to receive all things.
The Way abides in the emptiness.
The emptiness is the fasting of the mind."
-Chuang Tzu 


>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links






  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Before I started practicing meditation, I had hard time dealing with problems 
> in my life.  The problem, what ever they were, would run through my mind over 
> and over again, and I would talk about it over and over again.  People would 
> tell me to not let it get to me so much, and just let it go, but to tell you 
> the truth, I didn't now how to do that.  I would try to fix the problems, and 
> most of the time, my emotions would get the best of me.  It felt like I was 
> trying to break down a brick wall with my head, I was not getting any where, 
> and I was hurting myself in the process.  I was living in the past, and 
> dreading the future.  This went on for many years, till the point that I felt 
> I was having an emotional breakdown.  I turned to councilors, churches, 
> books and to God.  And to some degree these helped, and I learned things from 
> these sources, but the way I responded to problem, was my problem, and that I 
> was looking to everyone, and everything
>  else to find a solution to my torment.  The meditation for me has been a 
> life saver.  Almost instantly I found balance in my life. Not to say I am at 
> some place of bliss in my life, but the change in me is amazing.  People who 
> know me say I am like a different person.  I am sorry for going on like that, 
> I guess I needed to share that with new cyber space group members:)  
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
> Wei Wu Wei commented that its ironic that we spend so much time and energy 
> defending, protecting and worrying about our ego when there isn't one. And 
> its ironic that we spend so much time and energy obsessing about the past and 
> the future when only now exists. 
A tormented man stands in the snow outside the gates of the Shao-Lin
temple holding aloft his severed arm and cries out in anguish, 
"Master! My mind is never at peace! Please pacify my mind!" 
Bodhidharma appears at the gate and says, "How very strange! Please
bring it over here so that I may look at it." "I try to grasp it",
cries the seeker, "but I cannot find it in order to hold it!"
"There!" shouts Bodhidharma, "I have pacified your mind!"
In that little space between inhalation and exhalation is The Center,
which is always right here, right now.
"Do not listen with your ears, but with your mind.
 Do not listen with your mind, but with your breath. 
 The function of the ear ends with sounds.
 The function of the mind ends with symbols and ideas.
 But in the breath is an emptiness ready to receive all things.
 The Way abides in the emptiness.
 The emptiness is the fasting of the mind."
 -Chuang Tzu 
 

>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Anthony Wu]

JMJM,
 
You say: Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni.
 
Please present proof.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 24/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 11:57 AM


  



Hello Anthony,

My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since 
Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher 
of the  86th generations.

Are these titles meaningful?  Absolutely not.  Awakening got to arise from 
inside of us and not from words I posted.  All we have to do is to shut up, sit 
down and stop thinking.

My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is 
enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to.  In 
China, we call that Chan.  Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It 
was so without organization or structure.  

In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of 
Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism.

Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to 
state so.  We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking.

:-) 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: 
  






JM,
 
Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li 
Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door any 
moment, and teach you something better than Chan/
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 
chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM


  

Good Day To All,

My Teacher would say, "the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of 
Chan is not."

Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible 
and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the 
transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature. It is 
always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as 
integrating.

Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed the 
truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching.

All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are part 
of universe and contains the same nature of the universe. This is also 
the nature of man and of all beings big and small.

Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My Teacher often 
remind us, "True practice begins after awakening."

We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically, mentally 
and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception, 
preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with our 
original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to integrate.

This is what I was taught and have witnessed.

Thank you for your time.
JMJM

-- 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

Hi Tao Mountain Sage,

Chan itself does not have a practice.  Chan by itself is just another 
name for the truth of the universe, where people been seeking through 
many different paths, some religious, some scientific and some 
philosophical.


My teacher has only illustrated the Nature of Chan to his students, 
which is the nature of of the universe, or academically call 
characteristics of the universe.  These characteristics are in all 
beings, big and small as well as in their relationships.


The practice, to be in sync with these characteristics, is however Chan 
Buddhist, because our Order is Chan Buddhist.  Sorry to disappoint you.


On the other hand, whatever it is called is not important.  How 
effective can the practice integrate our body, mind and spirit into one 
is more important.  Besides, even among various schools of Chan 
Buddhist, there are many different teachings.  Buddha call this period 
of ours, the Dark Ages of Buddhism for exactly that reason. I would say, 
this is really the dark ages of all religions.


JM

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 1/24/2011 12:58 PM, Deborah Mingins wrote:
To JMJM- You say that true practice begins after awakening. What is 
this true practice in Chan ie not Chan  Buddhism

.taomtnsa...@yahoo.com <mailto:.taomtnsa...@yahoo.com>


*From:* Brett Corbin 
*To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
*Sent:* Sun, January 23, 2011 11:41:00 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

I like some of the statements in this post.  For me, I believe the 
truth is inside us all.  I feel the reason so many miss the truth is 
due to the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then 
finding the truth within them selves.  I hear a lot of people saying, 
my teacher said this, and my teacher said that, or a book said this or 
that, or Buddha said this or Jesus said that.  I believe that is why 
there is so much division in religions and belief systems.  I feel if 
people listened to the truth that is already in them, and not so much 
to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would be why more 
unity in this world.


Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On *Sun, 1/23/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
//* wrote:



From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 7:57 PM



Hello Anthony,

My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th
Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of
LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher of the  86th generations.

Are these titles meaningful?  Absolutely not.  Awakening got to
arise from inside of us and not from words I posted.  All we have
to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking.

My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which
Shakyamuni is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to
be enlightened to.  In China, we call that Chan.  Chan has been in
China far longer than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or
structure.

In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal
truth of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism.

Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has
continuously to state so.  We all can, as long as we sit down,
shut up and stop thinking.

:-)

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/
http://www.heartchan.org/


On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

JM,
Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person'
claims so. Mr Li Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the
USA. He may knock on your door any moment, and teach you
something better than Chan/
Anthony

--- On *Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
/
<http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com>/*
wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
<http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com>
    Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com

<http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zenliv...@yahoogroups.com>,
Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

<http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>,
chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com

<http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM

Good Day To All,

My Teacher would say, "the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the
witness of
Chan is not."

Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including
the visible
and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and
   

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

Before I started practicing meditation, I had hard time dealing with problems 
in my life.  The problem, what ever they were, would run through my mind over 
and over again, and I would talk about it over and over again.  People would 
tell me to not let it get to me so much, and just let it go, but to tell you 
the truth, I didn't now how to do that.  I would try to fix the problems, and 
most of the time, my emotions would get the best of me.  It felt like I was 
trying to break down a brick wall with my head, I was not getting any where, 
and I was hurting myself in the process.  I was living in the past, and 
dreading the future.  This went on for many years, till the point that I felt I 
was having an emotional breakdown.  I turned to councilors, churches, books and 
to God.  And to some degree these helped, and I learned things from these 
sources, but the way I responded to problem, was my problem, and that I 
was looking to everyone, and everything
 else to find a solution to my torment.  The meditation for me has been a life 
saver.  Almost instantly I found balance in my life. Not to say I am at some 
place of bliss in my life, but the change in me is amazing.  People who know me 
say I am like a different person.  I am sorry for going on like that, I 
guess I needed to share that with new cyber space group members:)  
Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Mon, 1/24/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 12:19 PM




--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> I think how I would answer that, is both.
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
>  Hi Brett. Good answer, imo.
  Steve

> 
> 
> 
> 






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links






  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Deborah Mingins]

To JMJM- You say that true practice begins after awakening. What is this true 
practice in Chan ie not Chan  Buddhism 
.taomtnsa...@yahoo.com





From: Brett Corbin 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, January 23, 2011 11:41:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

  
I like some of the statements in this post.  For me, I believe the truth is 
inside us all.  I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to 
the following 
of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the truth within them 
selves.  I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, and my teacher 
said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or Jesus said 
that.  
I believe that is why there is so much division in religions and belief 
systems.  I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in them, and 
not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would be why more 
unity in this world.   

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Sun, 1/23/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


>From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 7:57 PM
>
>
>
>
>Hello Anthony,
>
>My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since 
>Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher 
>of 
>the  86th generations.
>
>Are these titles meaningful?  Absolutely not.  Awakening got to arise from 
>inside of us and not from words I posted.  All we have to do is to shut up, 
>sit 
>down and stop thinking.
>
>My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is 
>enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to.  In 
>China, 
>we call that Chan.  Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It was 
>so 
>without organization or structure.  
>
>
>In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of 
>Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism.
>
>Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to 
>state so.  We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking.
>
>:-) 
>
>Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ 
>http://www.heartchan.org/ 
>
>On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: 
>  
>>JM,
>>
>>Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li 
>>Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door 
>>any 
>>moment, and teach you something better than Chan/
>>
>>Anthony
>>
>>--- On Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
>>>Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
>>>To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 
>>>chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com
>>>Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>Good Day To All,
>>>
>>>My Teacher would say, "the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of 
>>>Chan is not."
>>>
>>>Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible 
>>>and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the 
>>>transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature. It is 
>>>always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as 
>>>integrating.
>>>
>>>Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed the 
>>>truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching.
>>>
>>>All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are part 
>>>of universe and contains the same nature of the universe. This is also 
>>>the nature of man and of all beings big and small.
>>>
>>>Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My Teacher often 
>>>remind us, "True practice begins after awakening."
>>>
>>>We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically, mentally 
>>>and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception, 
>>>preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with our 
>>>original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to integrate.
>>>
>>>This is what I was taught and have witnessed.
>>>
>>>Thank you for your time.
>>>JMJM
>>>
>>>-- 
>>>Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
>>>http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
>>>http://www.heartchan.org
>>>
>>> 
>>

 




  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> I think how I would answer that, is both.
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
>  Hi Brett. Good answer, imo.
  Steve
 
> 
> 
> 
> 






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

Hi Steve,
I think how I would answer that, is both.

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Mon, 1/24/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 10:46 AM




--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Got me thinking on that one Ed.
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
> Hey, Brett, is the truth inside us all or are we all inside the
  truth?
  Steve
  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  
>  
> 






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links






  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> Got me thinking on that one Ed.
> 
> Brett
> http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
> 
> Hey, Brett, is the truth inside us all or are we all inside the
  truth?
  Steve
  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  
>  
> 






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Maria Lopez]

Thanks K.  Paste the children link if you wish to do so.  Caring for the 
wellbeing of all life is very rewarding.  Very glad of hearing at your 
enthusiasm and humanitarian intentions. I used to be in togetherness with one 
of my sisters and a friend amongst the supporters and sponsors of the hungry 
children from Vietnam.  Mayka
 
--- On Mon, 24/1/11, Kristy McClain  wrote:


From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 17:14


  








Makya,
 
It is precisely my direct experience that brings me to this.  I studied 
from very insightful  and wise teachers.  But there's an old saying.. "Those 
who can--do.  Those who can't--teach".    Yes-- there is a lot of 
self-righteousness  in zen and other communities.  There is some here.  Looking 
in the mirror can guide us all. My direct experience   tells me that it has  
very little to do with pointing to the moon, and solving riddles.  Its about 
getting one's hands dirty in the earth.  When it comes to  "no-self", I can 
assure you that someone's self beat and hurt those children.  It happens every 
single day.  If you'd like to help, I can refer to a place who desperately 
needs some.  
 
Take care.. k
 


--- On Mon, 1/24/11, Maria Lopez  wrote:


From: Maria Lopez 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 7:00 AM


  






K Wrote:
"Should zennists, (or any spiritual practitioner), get off their butts, and 
practise what they preach?  Is there not a certain self-righteousness in 
believing that the chants  of unity and oneness, and purity of heart while 
sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of "self"-focus?".
 
I haven't seen many real zennist practitioners preaching so far.  Though they 
may be sharing the fruits of their own practise or direct experience with it.  
There is no preaching in zen as far as I know.  Perhaps you were not lucky 
enough to find the real practitioners.  Or perhaps you rely a bit too much in 
Internet resources and postings from which you get this incorrect ideas about 
zen practitioners.  The same word practitioner means that that person doesn't 
follows preachings but that person is putting into real direct 
experience whatever is talking about.  However, I would agree with you that 
often in Internet there is more a lot of more talking zen that actually the 
experience of the practise talking through that talk.  A tutti frutti for all 
tastes and from which there is also a sort of learning behind. Nothing is 
completely black and nothing is completely white.
Mayka
 
 
--- On Mon, 24/1/11, Kristy McClain  wrote:


From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 8:28


  






Brett,
 
I completely agree.  Something did occur to me as I read your post.  I think 
its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that can bring 
the division. My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their 
journey by  doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group.  Exploring  
within as they are guided. Supposedly  then, one  has gained enough inner 
clarity so those  other things are  unnecessary.  For myself, I began a zen 
learning-curve , and practice around 1990. I'm realizing  more clearly as time 
passes, that this is no longer a spiritual  path for me.  I embrace zazen, much 
of the zen psychology and philosophy, as well as the  ethical conduct 
teachings.  But even  there, I am far more guided by the  yoga limbs , than 
by many of the theological  teachings of buddhism.
 
I feel that there can be great value in  a spiritual path, or even quest. But, 
I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. An 
interchange between  Bill and Ed put into words something I've been feeling for 
a long time.  Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their 
butts, and practice what they preach?  Is there not a certain 
self-righteousness in believing that the chants  of unity and oneness, and 
purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of "self"-focus?
 
While serenely  watching their breath, I can show you a 4-year old in intensive 
care whose father  beat  him so severly that he has a traumatic brain injury.  
While someone is cooking their   organic  tofu-stir-fry at a peace rally, I can 
show you a 10-month-old whose drunken parent  put her feet in boiling water 
because  the baby cried--probably because she had not a bottle or food in 12 
hours. While some are reading sutras at a 90-day intensive retreat, I can show 
you the newspaper  paragraph detailing how a baby died  after being placed in a 
microwave.
 
I have  to believe that what I've learned and experienced so far, gave me a 
foundation. But, my library of books and teacher- interview

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

Kristy,
Thank you for your insight.  I feel books and people are a part of my learning 
experience here in life, but I also believe that true enlightenment comes from 
with in.  As far as getting off our butts and doing something to help other in 
need goes, I also believe that the insight that comes from us seeking the 
truth, will lead us to the right course of action, or in some cases, non-action.

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Mon, 1/24/11, Kristy McClain  wrote:


From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 12:28 AM

















Brett,
 
I completely agree.  Something did occur to me as I read your post.  I think 
its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that can bring 
the division. My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their 
journey by  doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group.  Exploring  
within as they are guided. Supposedly  then, one  has gained enough inner 
clarity so those  other things are  unnecessary.  For myself, I began a zen 
learning-curve , and practice around 1990. I'm realizing  more clearly as time 
passes, that this is no longer a spiritual  path for me.  I embrace zazen, much 
of the zen psychology and philosophy, as well as the  ethical conduct 
teachings.  But even  there, I am far more guided by the  yoga limbs , than 
by many of the theological  teachings of buddhism.
 
I feel that there can be great value in  a spiritual path, or even quest. But, 
I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. An 
interchange between  Bill and Ed put into words something I've been feeling for 
a long time.  Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their 
butts, and practice what they preach?  Is there not a certain 
self-righteousness in believing that the chants  of unity and oneness, and 
purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of "self"-focus?
 
While serenely  watching their breath, I can show you a 4-year old in intensive 
care whose father  beat  him so severly that he has a traumatic brain injury.  
While someone is cooking their   organic  tofu-stir-fry at a peace rally, I can 
show you a 10-month-old whose drunken parent  put her feet in boiling water 
because  the baby cried--probably because she had not a bottle or food in 12 
hours. While some are reading sutras at a 90-day intensive retreat, I can show 
you the newspaper  paragraph detailing how a baby died  after being placed in a 
microwave.
 
I have  to believe that what I've learned and experienced so far, gave me a 
foundation. But, my library of books and teacher- interviews and the rest is 
over. Its about plugging in--for me.
 
As you said,  its finding one's own  truth. 
 
Be well.
 
Kristy

--- On Sun, 1/23/11, Brett Corbin  wrote:


From: Brett Corbin 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 9:41 PM


  





I like some of the statements in this post.  For me, I believe the truth is 
inside us all.  I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to 
the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the 
truth within them selves.  I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, 
and my teacher said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or 
Jesus said that.  I believe that is why there is so much division in religions 
and belief systems.  I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in 
them, and not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would 
be why more unity in this world.   

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963



  
  







 











  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

Got me thinking on that one Ed.

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Mon, 1/24/11, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 6:28 AM













 
 
 
 
 
"What is truth asked jesting Pilate and he did not wait for an answer."  --Sir 
Francis Bacon
 
John chapter 18, verse 38 of the Gospel of John, is often referred to as 
"jesting Pilate" or "Truth? What is truth?", of Latin: Quid est veritas?. In 
it, Pontius Pilate questions Jesus' claim that he is "witness to the truth" 
(John 18:37). He then proclaims to the masses (lit., "the Jews" referring to 
the Jewish authorities) that he does not consider Jesus guilty of any crime.   
(Wiki)
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin  wrote:
>
> For me, I believe the truth is inside us all.
 





  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Kristy McClain]

Makya,
 
It is precisely my direct experience that brings me to this.  I studied 
from very insightful  and wise teachers.  But there's an old saying.. "Those 
who can--do.  Those who can't--teach".    Yes-- there is a lot of 
self-righteousness  in zen and other communities.  There is some here.  Looking 
in the mirror can guide us all. My direct experience   tells me that it has  
very little to do with pointing to the moon, and solving riddles.  Its about 
getting one's hands dirty in the earth.  When it comes to  "no-self", I can 
assure you that someone's self beat and hurt those children.  It happens every 
single day.  If you'd like to help, I can refer to a place who desperately 
needs some.  
 
Take care.. k
 


--- On Mon, 1/24/11, Maria Lopez  wrote:


From: Maria Lopez 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 7:00 AM


  








K Wrote:
"Should zennists, (or any spiritual practitioner), get off their butts, and 
practise what they preach?  Is there not a certain self-righteousness in 
believing that the chants  of unity and oneness, and purity of heart while 
sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of "self"-focus?".
 
I haven't seen many real zennist practitioners preaching so far.  Though they 
may be sharing the fruits of their own practise or direct experience with it.  
There is no preaching in zen as far as I know.  Perhaps you were not lucky 
enough to find the real practitioners.  Or perhaps you rely a bit too much in 
Internet resources and postings from which you get this incorrect ideas about 
zen practitioners.  The same word practitioner means that that person doesn't 
follows preachings but that person is putting into real direct 
experience whatever is talking about.  However, I would agree with you that 
often in Internet there is more a lot of more talking zen that actually the 
experience of the practise talking through that talk.  A tutti frutti for all 
tastes and from which there is also a sort of learning behind. Nothing is 
completely black and nothing is completely white.
Mayka
 
 
--- On Mon, 24/1/11, Kristy McClain  wrote:


From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 8:28


  






Brett,
 
I completely agree.  Something did occur to me as I read your post.  I think 
its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that can bring 
the division. My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their 
journey by  doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group.  Exploring  
within as they are guided. Supposedly  then, one  has gained enough inner 
clarity so those  other things are  unnecessary.  For myself, I began a zen 
learning-curve , and practice around 1990. I'm realizing  more clearly as time 
passes, that this is no longer a spiritual  path for me.  I embrace zazen, much 
of the zen psychology and philosophy, as well as the  ethical conduct 
teachings.  But even  there, I am far more guided by the  yoga limbs , than 
by many of the theological  teachings of buddhism.
 
I feel that there can be great value in  a spiritual path, or even quest. But, 
I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. An 
interchange between  Bill and Ed put into words something I've been feeling for 
a long time.  Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their 
butts, and practice what they preach?  Is there not a certain 
self-righteousness in believing that the chants  of unity and oneness, and 
purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of "self"-focus?
 
While serenely  watching their breath, I can show you a 4-year old in intensive 
care whose father  beat  him so severly that he has a traumatic brain injury.  
While someone is cooking their   organic  tofu-stir-fry at a peace rally, I can 
show you a 10-month-old whose drunken parent  put her feet in boiling water 
because  the baby cried--probably because she had not a bottle or food in 12 
hours. While some are reading sutras at a 90-day intensive retreat, I can show 
you the newspaper  paragraph detailing how a baby died  after being placed in a 
microwave.
 
I have  to believe that what I've learned and experienced so far, gave me a 
foundation. But, my library of books and teacher- interviews and the rest is 
over. Its about plugging in--for me.
 
As you said,  its finding one's own  truth. 
 
Be well.
 
Kristy

--- On Sun, 1/23/11, Brett Corbin  wrote:


From: Brett Corbin 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 9:41 PM


  





I like some of the statements in this post.  For me, I believe the truth is 
inside us all.  I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to 
the following of others interpretation of the truth rather 

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[ED]

"What is truth asked jesting Pilate and he did not wait for an answer." 
--Sir Francis Bacon



John chapter 18, verse 38 of the Gospel of John, is often referred to as
"jesting Pilate" or "Truth? What is truth?", of Latin: Quid est
veritas?. In it, Pontius Pilate questions Jesus' claim that he is
"witness to the truth" (John 18:37). He then proclaims to the masses
(lit., "the Jews" referring to the Jewish authorities) that he does not
consider Jesus guilty of any crime.   (Wiki)



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin 
wrote:
>
> For me, I believe the truth is inside us all.

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Maria Lopez]

K Wrote:
"Should zennists, (or any spiritual practitioner), get off their butts, and 
practise what they preach?  Is there not a certain self-righteousness in 
believing that the chants  of unity and oneness, and purity of heart while 
sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of "self"-focus?".
 
I haven't seen many real zennist practitioners preaching so far.  Though they 
may be sharing the fruits of their own practise or direct experience with it.  
There is no preaching in zen as far as I know.  Perhaps you were not lucky 
enough to find the real practitioners.  Or perhaps you rely a bit too much in 
Internet resources and postings from which you get this incorrect ideas about 
zen practitioners.  The same word practitioner means that that person doesn't 
follows preachings but that person is putting into real direct 
experience whatever is talking about.  However, I would agree with you that 
often in Internet there is more a lot of more talking zen that actually the 
experience of the practise talking through that talk.  A tutti frutti for all 
tastes and from which there is also a sort of learning behind. Nothing is 
completely black and nothing is completely white.
Mayka
 
 
--- On Mon, 24/1/11, Kristy McClain  wrote:


From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 8:28


  








Brett,
 
I completely agree.  Something did occur to me as I read your post.  I think 
its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that can bring 
the division. My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their 
journey by  doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group.  Exploring  
within as they are guided. Supposedly  then, one  has gained enough inner 
clarity so those  other things are  unnecessary.  For myself, I began a zen 
learning-curve , and practice around 1990. I'm realizing  more clearly as time 
passes, that this is no longer a spiritual  path for me.  I embrace zazen, much 
of the zen psychology and philosophy, as well as the  ethical conduct 
teachings.  But even  there, I am far more guided by the  yoga limbs , than 
by many of the theological  teachings of buddhism.
 
I feel that there can be great value in  a spiritual path, or even quest. But, 
I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. An 
interchange between  Bill and Ed put into words something I've been feeling for 
a long time.  Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their 
butts, and practice what they preach?  Is there not a certain 
self-righteousness in believing that the chants  of unity and oneness, and 
purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of "self"-focus?
 
While serenely  watching their breath, I can show you a 4-year old in intensive 
care whose father  beat  him so severly that he has a traumatic brain injury.  
While someone is cooking their   organic  tofu-stir-fry at a peace rally, I can 
show you a 10-month-old whose drunken parent  put her feet in boiling water 
because  the baby cried--probably because she had not a bottle or food in 12 
hours. While some are reading sutras at a 90-day intensive retreat, I can show 
you the newspaper  paragraph detailing how a baby died  after being placed in a 
microwave.
 
I have  to believe that what I've learned and experienced so far, gave me a 
foundation. But, my library of books and teacher- interviews and the rest is 
over. Its about plugging in--for me.
 
As you said,  its finding one's own  truth. 
 
Be well.
 
Kristy

--- On Sun, 1/23/11, Brett Corbin  wrote:


From: Brett Corbin 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 9:41 PM


  





I like some of the statements in this post.  For me, I believe the truth is 
inside us all.  I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to 
the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the 
truth within them selves.  I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, 
and my teacher said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or 
Jesus said that.  I believe that is why there is so much division in religions 
and belief systems.  I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in 
them, and not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would 
be why more unity in this world.   

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963



  
  







 

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Kristy McClain]

Brett,
 
I completely agree.  Something did occur to me as I read your post.  I think 
its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that can bring 
the division. My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their 
journey by  doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group.  Exploring  
within as they are guided. Supposedly  then, one  has gained enough inner 
clarity so those  other things are  unnecessary.  For myself, I began a zen 
learning-curve , and practice around 1990. I'm realizing  more clearly as time 
passes, that this is no longer a spiritual  path for me.  I embrace zazen, much 
of the zen psychology and philosophy, as well as the  ethical conduct 
teachings.  But even  there, I am far more guided by the  yoga limbs , than 
by many of the theological  teachings of buddhism.
 
I feel that there can be great value in  a spiritual path, or even quest. But, 
I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. An 
interchange between  Bill and Ed put into words something I've been feeling for 
a long time.  Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their 
butts, and practice what they preach?  Is there not a certain 
self-righteousness in believing that the chants  of unity and oneness, and 
purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of "self"-focus?
 
While serenely  watching their breath, I can show you a 4-year old in intensive 
care whose father  beat  him so severly that he has a traumatic brain injury.  
While someone is cooking their   organic  tofu-stir-fry at a peace rally, I can 
show you a 10-month-old whose drunken parent  put her feet in boiling water 
because  the baby cried--probably because she had not a bottle or food in 12 
hours. While some are reading sutras at a 90-day intensive retreat, I can show 
you the newspaper  paragraph detailing how a baby died  after being placed in a 
microwave.
 
I have  to believe that what I've learned and experienced so far, gave me a 
foundation. But, my library of books and teacher- interviews and the rest is 
over. Its about plugging in--for me.
 
As you said,  its finding one's own  truth. 
 
Be well.
 
Kristy

--- On Sun, 1/23/11, Brett Corbin  wrote:


From: Brett Corbin 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 9:41 PM


  







I like some of the statements in this post.  For me, I believe the truth is 
inside us all.  I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to 
the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the 
truth within them selves.  I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, 
and my teacher said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or 
Jesus said that.  I believe that is why there is so much division in religions 
and belief systems.  I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in 
them, and not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would 
be why more unity in this world.   

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963



 
  







 












  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Brett Corbin]

I like some of the statements in this post.  For me, I believe the truth is 
inside us all.  I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to 
the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the 
truth within them selves.  I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, 
and my teacher said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or 
Jesus said that.  I believe that is why there is so much division in religions 
and belief systems.  I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in 
them, and not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would 
be why more unity in this world.   

Brett
http://www.pbase.com/brett1963

--- On Sun, 1/23/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 7:57 PM








Hello Anthony,

My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since 
Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie.  I am the Head Teacher 
of the  86th generations.

Are these titles meaningful?  Absolutely not.  Awakening got to arise from 
inside of us and not from words I posted.  All we have to do is to shut up, sit 
down and stop thinking.

My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is 
enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to.  In 
China, we call that Chan.  Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It 
was so without organization or structure.  

In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of 
Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism.

Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to 
state so.  We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking.

:-) 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: 
  






JM,
 
Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li 
Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door any 
moment, and teach you something better than Chan/
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 
chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM


  

Good Day To All,

My Teacher would say, "the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of 
Chan is not."

Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible 
and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the 
transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature. It is 
always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as 
integrating.

Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed the 
truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching.

All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are part 
of universe and contains the same nature of the universe. This is also 
the nature of man and of all beings big and small.

Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My Teacher often 
remind us, "True practice begins after awakening."

We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically, mentally 
and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception, 
preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with our 
original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to integrate.

This is what I was taught and have witnessed.

Thank you for your time.
JMJM

-- 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org








  

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

Hello Anthony,

My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch 
since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie.  I am the 
Head Teacher of the  86th generations.


Are these titles meaningful?  Absolutely not.  Awakening got to arise 
from inside of us and not from words I posted.  All we have to do is to 
shut up, sit down and stop thinking.


My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni 
is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened 
to.  In China, we call that Chan.  Chan has been in China far longer 
than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or structure.


In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth 
of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism.


Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has 
continuously to state so.  We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up 
and stop thinking.


:-)

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:


JM,
Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims 
so. Mr Li Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may 
knock on your door any moment, and teach you something better than Chan/

Anthony

--- On *Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
//* wrote:



From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
    Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,
chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM

Good Day To All,

My Teacher would say, "the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the
witness of
Chan is not."

Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the
visible
and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the
transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature. It is
always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as
integrating.

Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed
the
truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching.

All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are
part
of universe and contains the same nature of the universe. This is
also
the nature of man and of all beings big and small.

Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My Teacher often
remind us, "True practice begins after awakening."

We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically,
mentally
and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception,
preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with our
original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to
integrate.

This is what I was taught and have witnessed.

Thank you for your time.
JMJM

-- 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can

http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com <http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/>
http://www.heartchan.org <http://www.heartchan.org/>

Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Anthony Wu]

JM,
 
Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li 
Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door any 
moment, and teach you something better than Chan/
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 
chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM


  



Good Day To All,

My Teacher would say, "the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of 
Chan is not."

Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible 
and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the 
transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature. It is 
always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as 
integrating.

Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed the 
truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching.

All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are part 
of universe and contains the same nature of the universe. This is also 
the nature of man and of all beings big and small.

Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My Teacher often 
remind us, "True practice begins after awakening."

We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically, mentally 
and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception, 
preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with our 
original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to integrate.

This is what I was taught and have witnessed.

Thank you for your time.
JMJM

-- 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

[Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

Good Day To All,

My Teacher would say, "the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of 
Chan is not."

Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible 
and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the 
transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature.  It is 
always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as 
integrating.

Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed the 
truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching.

All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are part 
of universe and contains the same nature of the universe.  This is also 
the nature of man and of all beings big and small.

Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning.  My Teacher often 
remind us, "True practice begins after awakening."

We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically, mentally 
and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception, 
preference or selection.  Such that we could live in sync with our 
original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to integrate.

This is what I was taught and have witnessed.

Thank you for your time.
JMJM

-- 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org





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