[Zen] Re: GOD (Generator, Organizer Destroyer).
Dear Sir, We are in very sorry state. Nothing can help us. We are ruining, our days are counted. I also looking out for god to help us. If he is there I am very much happy. Why not look beyond Mahaperiva? Living in cage(prison) and not realised that your living in your own prison You will say let me live in this way. I am not here to change anyone, I am only sharing my perception. Let see what happens ahead? Best regards Suresh On 6/28/13, Rajaram Krishnamurthy keyar...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Suresh The moment I read sorry to contradict maha periaval I read no more because TAT TVAM ASI. K r IRS On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 10:25 PM, SURESH JAGADEESAN varam...@gmail.comwrote: Dear Sri.Rajaram, “He went through the statistics, about 15 children were born in 10 hospitals, 8 female and 7 male infants, out of which 3 children had malnutrition defects, 2 children were the first child of highly rich parents born in luxury hospitals, while 4 were children of coolie labourers who already had few children.* According to your concepts, all these children should be living exactly identical to each other, but not so practically, some are ill, some are healthy, some are born to rich parents, some are born to poor parents. Remember all children born in the same day, same longitude, latitude, you can't blame their horoscope which is going to be almost identical.” Sorry to contradict Mahaperiva. This is not a comparison at all. You cannot compere like this. The difference may not be there in the place of birth, and day of birth, but certainly differences are in Parents, the main factors by which children genes are decided, nutrition are decided . Horoscope is not a science, based on that one should or cannot predict one’s life. Horoscope is a psychological play. If an astrologer states “for this horoscope, this will be the life events”, then one starts believing it, that belief brings such life to him . Remember Buddha words “We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think” So don’t be so much enthusiastic that you have disproved me by quoting Mahaperiva words. I give you my own example: My children being autistic are not because of some papa done by me or my wife in the previous birth. MY children being autistic are because of my mistakes in the present life. Please note that fetus in the mother womb is affected by the thoughts of that mother. If she is happy, she is sending good vibrations and if she is sad, she is sending bad vibrations and if she is under stress, she is sending stressful vibrations to the fetus. These vibrations first of all affect the child’s brain, then the body. I hope most of the members agree on this point. Before my marriage, I liked a girl and wanted to marry her, but it was neither accepted by her nor accepted by my parents. So after I have seen my wife, I have written to her all my love affair honestly. (This is my mistake) My wife being very much sensitive did not liked to get married; she thought she is not my first love. But due to her mother’s compulsion only she agreed to marry me. But I liked her innocence. After marriage she keep asking me about my previous love affair. She always used to state that she is only my 2nd wife, since I have not loved her first. After 5 months of marriage, I went to ship. She could not allow me to go for ship. Since I have no money which is all spent due to marriage and for all those 6 months of stay at home, I have no choice but to join ship. This made her deeply stressed. She was thinking what if I call that previous lover and in case she now loves me, I may not stick with her (my wife) and go with my previous love. And also at my home the fight (usual) started between my Chithi and my sisters to some extent with my father. She liked my father, because my father used to appreciate her hard work, and for her good cooking. So she shifted to her home when I was in ship. I signed off from ship one week before her delivery. So these stresses affected my first child to be born with Autism. (better than my 2nd son) For my 2nd son, that time she most loved me so much, the trust has grown up. She used to state to her mother that for next 7 generations she wanted to be my wife ( for that there is a temple in Tamilnadu and there if you perform a pooja, this will happen and she wanted to do that) But when love has increased with me, more intolerance grown towards my chithi and my sisters. All because of money. Actually we don’t stay at home for long time. I used to take her with me on board. That time I was sailing with Indian company and hence salary was less. And I had home loan and other loans, so hardly any money left in hand for saving or even for luxury spending. So my wife told me, why not your brother support the family now. Ask him to pay for the family, after some time we can take over else ask him at least to share the house hold
Re: [Zen] Re: God
although we..the group might tiff a bitt now and then... it's good to air things... i am sure there is much accord after all we are not all robots singing the same tune.. diversity adds flavour i am curious chris ... what is your life story if i maybe so bold to ask? enjoy your week at the edge of the atlantic ocean merle I am often charged with having no sense of humor, indeed and in person. A defensive posture adopted for often being puzzled by human interaction. I will try to act from a stance that all here have good will. I myself am about to pack up my zafu for a trip back to my family of origin, to share a week at the edge of the Atlantic Ocean and welcome my new niece. I will probably have even more time to write here than normally. May these bits find all of us well, free of suffering and well in our body/minds and our interrelating. http://www.zensoaps.com Love, Chris Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 18, 2013 6:57 PM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Merle, Chris and Joe... Chris' post was well thought out. His posts usually are, even the ones I disagree with. In this one I especially liked his observation that especially on this site Everyone that writes here has I think missed the mark from time to time. I do think however a good deal of Chris' discomfort with Joe's posts are more of style than substance. Joe uses humor, which sometimes leads to quips and sarcasm. Some people take those more personally and harshly than others. Chris' style is pretty much straight-up and more consistently serious. Merle's style seems to be completely spontaneous and somewhat quirky at times. Edgar? Well, Edgar is just Edgar. Anyway I don't think anybody here is trying to hurt anyone's feelings or purposely trying to offend. There is sometimes jabs here and there (I certainly jab sometimes), but I assume that's just to get someone's attention or emphasis a point. Those are my thoughts on this...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  a comforting well thought out post chris...merle  I think the inescapable meanness in your words here show very well that there is no permanent essence attached to persons or to awakening. Sometimes Merle's words show she gets it, at that time. Sometimes your words show that. Everyone that writes here has I think missed the mark from time to time. That’s a good lesson-we aren't really separate from one another and sometimes we join the dance eyes open and sometimes eyes closed, so our partners make way for us. I respect your long history of practise and achievement, but with language like every and compared and more advanced I think you show us that no amount of practise is enough. You may hold to an essential difference between yourself and Merle and I as less advanced, but today I do not see that dividing line. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 17, 2013 6:42 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Chris, I've seen Merle trivialize it, in every post.  Hi, Cous'!  Luv ya. Compared to / with her posts, Americans are more advanced in practice than you and me. Trivialize?  I'm an old man, C.  This goes / has gone with the territory.  But, find yourself in a community of practitioners, and you will find critical mass. Looky-here, C.: there's Zen; and, there's hooey.  I think it's always been so.  When it comes to Zen... only a Practitioner, well, knows.  We forgive all trivializations.  How could anyone else know?  We know that practice is necessary.  And we try to extend our appreciation of our practice to others.  But do not proselytize. This is why I teach.  To the extent that I do.  Since 1980. I don't forgive my (your) culture; and, I don't indict it.  It takes a Certain Maturity, to take up our Practice.  You won't find it online.  Usually.  Rare exceptions.  Bill!, and me;  Mike; and you.  Maybe some lurkers.  And Mr. Zendervish, here, certainly.  Kudos, and hail!, all non-fuddlers! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: http://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here.  You've never seen US culture trivialize zen? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Re: God
trivialised or not...chris..every bit counts in the scheme of things...enlightenment may come in many forms, let us not scoff at trivia but embrace it as part of the endless pursuit of man to find meaning in life...merle http://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here. You've never seen US culture trivialize zen? http://cherrycrime26.hubpages.com/hub/Meditation-Techniques-To-Manifest-Money http://www.zenprofits.com/ http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Centered-Transform-Your-Weeks-Meditation/dp/1401935869 Oh well, Chris Thanks, --Chris ch...@austin-lane.net +1-301-270-6524 On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 4:59 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, I never heard such stuff. Dunno where you may be coming from. It may be just a geographic or cultural proclivity, or merely and importantly personal. I hope you and your chosen teacher will take these things up, if they are important in (Zen) practice. Best, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I wasn't really referring to the case when people with a lot of aware experiences of buddha nature trivialize it - that seems like a non-problem to me. I was referring to the tendency of [my, i.e. US] culture to trivialize everything, especially stuff from other traditions, e.g. http://zeninamoment.com/ or http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/list/1 http://bigmind.org/genpo-roshi People want to think that there is some simple fix that they can acquire, rather than that there is no problem, and nothing to fix but their own tendencies to blindness, irritation and wanting stuff, which is extremely non-trivial to lay down, and that the process of laying down these tendencies is so profoundly satisfying that one can't find it trivial; it is as trivial as singing in the rain while feeling happy. In my experience, people in the US are apt to paper over the most profound moments with silly thin ideas, turning away from the suchness we have a chance to share in and turning towards some paper-thing abstraction. Do I think that substituting seeing God or seeing the face of God might help someone understand Just This! or experience Buddha nature? I find it likely enough to be worth discussing. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Re: God
Chris, Merle, Joe, et al... Could you get anymore trivial and any more true than the saying which is also the title of a book: selling water by the river? What is more trivial than water? What is more precious than water? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  yes chris..you are on the correct path to this trivial...i think edgar calls it comic book zen...merle  http://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here.  You've never seen US culture trivialize zen? http://cherrycrime26.hubpages.com/hub/Meditation-Techniques-To-Manifest-Money http://www.zenprofits.com/ http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Centered-Transform-Your-Weeks-Meditation/dp/1401935869 Oh well, Chris Thanks, --Chris chris@... +1-301-270-6524 On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 4:59 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Chris, I never heard such stuff.  Dunno where you may be coming from. It may be just a geographic or cultural proclivity, or merely and importantly personal. I hope you and your chosen teacher will take these things up, if they are important in (Zen) practice. Best, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: I wasn't really referring to the case when people with a lot of aware experiences of buddha nature trivialize it - that seems like a non-problem to me. I was referring to the tendency of [my, i.e. US] culture to trivialize everything, especially stuff from other traditions, e.g. http://zeninamoment.com/  or http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/list/1 http://bigmind.org/genpo-roshi People want to think that there is some simple fix that they can acquire, rather than that there is no problem, and nothing to fix but their own tendencies to blindness, irritation and wanting stuff, which is extremely non-trivial to lay down, and that the process of laying down these tendencies is so profoundly satisfying that one can't find it trivial; it is as trivial as singing in the rain while feeling happy. In my experience, people in the US are apt to paper over the most profound moments with silly thin ideas, turning away from the suchness we have a chance to share in and turning towards some paper-thing abstraction. Do I think that substituting seeing God or seeing the face of God might help someone understand Just This! or experience Buddha nature?  I find it likely enough to be worth discussing. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
excellent bill never dreamt of the day in australia when they would sell water..now it is so...and next will be air...and bottled sunshine..merle Chris, Merle, Joe, et al... Could you get anymore trivial and any more true than the saying which is also the title of a book: selling water by the river? What is more trivial than water? What is more precious than water? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  yes chris..you are on the correct path to this trivial...i think edgar calls it comic book zen...merle  http://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here.  You've never seen US culture trivialize zen? http://cherrycrime26.hubpages.com/hub/Meditation-Techniques-To-Manifest-Money http://www.zenprofits.com/ http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Centered-Transform-Your-Weeks-Meditation/dp/1401935869 Oh well, Chris Thanks, --Chris chris@... +1-301-270-6524 On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 4:59 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Chris, I never heard such stuff.  Dunno where you may be coming from. It may be just a geographic or cultural proclivity, or merely and importantly personal. I hope you and your chosen teacher will take these things up, if they are important in (Zen) practice. Best, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: I wasn't really referring to the case when people with a lot of aware experiences of buddha nature trivialize it - that seems like a non-problem to me. I was referring to the tendency of [my, i.e. US] culture to trivialize everything, especially stuff from other traditions, e.g. http://zeninamoment.com/  or http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/list/1 http://bigmind.org/genpo-roshi People want to think that there is some simple fix that they can acquire, rather than that there is no problem, and nothing to fix but their own tendencies to blindness, irritation and wanting stuff, which is extremely non-trivial to lay down, and that the process of laying down these tendencies is so profoundly satisfying that one can't find it trivial; it is as trivial as singing in the rain while feeling happy. In my experience, people in the US are apt to paper over the most profound moments with silly thin ideas, turning away from the suchness we have a chance to share in and turning towards some paper-thing abstraction. Do I think that substituting seeing God or seeing the face of God might help someone understand Just This! or experience Buddha nature?  I find it likely enough to be worth discussing. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Re: God
Merle, ...and as you and Chris noted in an early post they've already started selling Buddha Nature and enlightenment... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  excellent bill never dreamt of the day in australia when they would sell water..now it is so...and next will be air...and bottled sunshine..merle  Chris, Merle, Joe, et al... Could you get anymore trivial and any more true than the saying which is also the title of a book: selling water by the river? What is more trivial than water? What is more precious than water? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àyes chris..you are on the correct path to this trivial...i think edgar calls it comic book zen...merle àhttp://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here. àYou've never seen US culture trivialize zen?àhttp://cherrycrime26.hubpages.com/hub/Meditation-Techniques-To-Manifest-Money http://www.zenprofits.com/ http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Centered-Transform-Your-Weeks-Meditation/dp/1401935869 Oh well,àChris Thanks, --Chris chris@ +1-301-270-6524 On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 4:59 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Chris, I never heard such stuff. àDunno where you may be coming from. It may be just a geographic or cultural proclivity, or merely and importantly personal. I hope you and your chosen teacher will take these things up, if they are important in (Zen) practice. Best, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: I wasn't really referring to the case when people with a lot of aware experiences of buddha nature trivialize it - that seems like a non-problem to me. I was referring to the tendency of [my, i.e. US] culture to trivialize everything, especially stuff from other traditions, e.g. http://zeninamoment.com/ àor http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/list/1 http://bigmind.org/genpo-roshi People want to think that there is some simple fix that they can acquire, rather than that there is no problem, and nothing to fix but their own tendencies to blindness, irritation and wanting stuff, which is extremely non-trivial to lay down, and that the process of laying down these tendencies is so profoundly satisfying that one can't find it trivial; it is as trivial as singing in the rain while feeling happy. In my experience, people in the US are apt to paper over the most profound moments with silly thin ideas, turning away from the suchness we have a chance to share in and turning towards some paper-thing abstraction. Do I think that substituting seeing God or seeing the face of God might help someone understand Just This! or experience Buddha nature? àI find it likely enough to be worth discussing. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
What is more trivial than selling water by the river? Maybe hoping that reason can save one? Perhaps rather than the word trivial, I should have said the language taken from Japan and ancient India and China lead Westerners to assume that zazen is about some quick fix, pulling down some low hanging fruit, yet another texture to add to the quilt of multiculturalism. Here's my chanting CD, here's my saree, here's an elephant statur, here's my guru's (that I met once in Central Park) picture, here's my zafu. Oh Yeah, I see Buddha nature in the Whole Foods produce section after I mindfully buy some MSC fish. Using language from our tradition, seeing the face of God, perhaps will slow people down a bit, so when Bill speaks of no thoughts, they are prepared to listen, and to appreciate why he might find that a turning point in his life. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 18, 2013 1:42 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Chris, Merle, Joe, et al... Could you get anymore trivial and any more true than the saying which is also the title of a book: selling water by the river? What is more trivial than water? What is more precious than water? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  yes chris..you are on the correct path to this trivial...i think edgar calls it comic book zen...merle  http://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here.  You've never seen US culture trivialize zen? http://cherrycrime26.hubpages.com/hub/Meditation-Techniques-To-Manifest-Money http://www.zenprofits.com/ http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Centered-Transform-Your-Weeks-Meditation/dp/1401935869 Oh well, Chris Thanks, --Chris chris@... +1-301-270-6524 On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 4:59 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Chris, I never heard such stuff.  Dunno where you may be coming from. It may be just a geographic or cultural proclivity, or merely and importantly personal. I hope you and your chosen teacher will take these things up, if they are important in (Zen) practice. Best, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: I wasn't really referring to the case when people with a lot of aware experiences of buddha nature trivialize it - that seems like a non-problem to me. I was referring to the tendency of [my, i.e. US] culture to trivialize everything, especially stuff from other traditions, e.g. http://zeninamoment.com/  or http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/list/1 http://bigmind.org/genpo-roshi People want to think that there is some simple fix that they can acquire, rather than that there is no problem, and nothing to fix but their own tendencies to blindness, irritation and wanting stuff, which is extremely non-trivial to lay down, and that the process of laying down these tendencies is so profoundly satisfying that one can't find it trivial; it is as trivial as singing in the rain while feeling happy. In my experience, people in the US are apt to paper over the most profound moments with silly thin ideas, turning away from the suchness we have a chance to share in and turning towards some paper-thing abstraction. Do I think that substituting seeing God or seeing the face of God might help someone understand Just This! or experience Buddha nature?  I find it likely enough to be worth discussing. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Re: God
I think the inescapable meanness in your words here show very well that there is no permanent essence attached to persons or to awakening. Sometimes Merle's words show she gets it, at that time. Sometimes your words show that. Everyone that writes here has I think missed the mark from time to time. That’s a good lesson-we aren't really separate from one another and sometimes we join the dance eyes open and sometimes eyes closed, so our partners make way for us. I respect your long history of practise and achievement, but with language like every and compared and more advanced I think you show us that no amount of practise is enough. You may hold to an essential difference between yourself and Merle and I as less advanced, but today I do not see that dividing line. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 17, 2013 6:42 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, I've seen Merle trivialize it, in every post. Hi, Cous'! Luv ya. Compared to / with her posts, Americans are more advanced in practice than you and me. Trivialize? I'm an old man, C. This goes / has gone with the territory. But, find yourself in a community of practitioners, and you will find critical mass. Looky-here, C.: there's Zen; and, there's hooey. I think it's always been so. When it comes to Zen... only a Practitioner, well, knows. We forgive all trivializations. How could anyone else know? We know that practice is necessary. And we try to extend our appreciation of our practice to others. But do not proselytize. This is why I teach. To the extent that I do. Since 1980. I don't forgive my (your) culture; and, I don't indict it. It takes a Certain Maturity, to take up our Practice. You won't find it online. Usually. Rare exceptions. Bill!, and me; Mike; and you. Maybe some lurkers. And Mr. Zendervish, here, certainly. Kudos, and hail!, all non-fuddlers! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: http://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here. You've never seen US culture trivialize zen? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Re: God
a comforting well thought out post chris...merle I think the inescapable meanness in your words here show very well that there is no permanent essence attached to persons or to awakening. Sometimes Merle's words show she gets it, at that time. Sometimes your words show that. Everyone that writes here has I think missed the mark from time to time. That’s a good lesson-we aren't really separate from one another and sometimes we join the dance eyes open and sometimes eyes closed, so our partners make way for us. I respect your long history of practise and achievement, but with language like every and compared and more advanced I think you show us that no amount of practise is enough. You may hold to an essential difference between yourself and Merle and I as less advanced, but today I do not see that dividing line. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 17, 2013 6:42 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, I've seen Merle trivialize it, in every post. Hi, Cous'! Luv ya. Compared to / with her posts, Americans are more advanced in practice than you and me. Trivialize? I'm an old man, C. This goes / has gone with the territory. But, find yourself in a community of practitioners, and you will find critical mass. Looky-here, C.: there's Zen; and, there's hooey. I think it's always been so. When it comes to Zen... only a Practitioner, well, knows. We forgive all trivializations. How could anyone else know? We know that practice is necessary. And we try to extend our appreciation of our practice to others. But do not proselytize. This is why I teach. To the extent that I do. Since 1980. I don't forgive my (your) culture; and, I don't indict it. It takes a Certain Maturity, to take up our Practice. You won't find it online. Usually. Rare exceptions. Bill!, and me; Mike; and you. Maybe some lurkers. And Mr. Zendervish, here, certainly. Kudos, and hail!, all non-fuddlers! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: http://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here. You've never seen US culture trivialize zen? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Re: God
Bill!, I think Mike may have practiced with Kennett Roshi, BTW. Or, someone else here mentioned they had. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, Merle, Joe, et al... Could you get anymore trivial and any more true than the saying which is also the title of a book: selling water by the river? What is more trivial than water? What is more precious than water? ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: God
Bill!, It's a bad business-plan, if so. Zen practice is too painful for most who are new to it. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Merle, ...and as you and Chris noted in an early post they've already started selling Buddha Nature and enlightenment... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: God
Chris, Advanced just means not (as) prone to trivialize (misunderstand, misconstrue) as others. What else could it mean? If that is mean, and that's the way you take it, you may be trivializing it. We're adults here, and have racked-up a history on these boards, and know something about the backgrounds we've disclosed and woven into posts. Merle might also bluntly advise you, Lighten up! I hope she does. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I think the inescapable meanness in your words here show very well that there is no permanent essence attached to persons or to awakening. Sometimes Merle's words show she gets it, at that time. Sometimes your words show that. Everyone that writes here has I think missed the mark from time to time. Thatâs a good lesson-we aren't really separate from one another and sometimes we join the dance eyes open and sometimes eyes closed, so our partners make way for us. I respect your long history of practise and achievement, but with language like every and compared and more advanced I think you show us that no amount of practise is enough. You may hold to an essential difference between yourself and Merle and I as less advanced, but today I do not see that dividing line. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
no joe... i am one with chris on this... merle Chris, Advanced just means not (as) prone to trivialize (misunderstand, misconstrue) as others. What else could it mean? If that is mean, and that's the way you take it, you may be trivializing it. We're adults here, and have racked-up a history on these boards, and know something about the backgrounds we've disclosed and woven into posts. Merle might also bluntly advise you, Lighten up! I hope she does. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I think the inescapable meanness in your words here show very well that there is no permanent essence attached to persons or to awakening. Sometimes Merle's words show she gets it, at that time. Sometimes your words show that. Everyone that writes here has I think missed the mark from time to time. That’s a good lesson-we aren't really separate from one another and sometimes we join the dance eyes open and sometimes eyes closed, so our partners make way for us. I respect your long history of practise and achievement, but with language like every and compared and more advanced I think you show us that no amount of practise is enough. You may hold to an essential difference between yourself and Merle and I as less advanced, but today I do not see that dividing line.
[Zen] Re: God
Merle, Chris and Joe... Chris' post was well thought out. His posts usually are, even the ones I disagree with. In this one I especially liked his observation that especially on this site Everyone that writes here has I think missed the mark from time to time. I do think however a good deal of Chris' discomfort with Joe's posts are more of style than substance. Joe uses humor, which sometimes leads to quips and sarcasm. Some people take those more personally and harshly than others. Chris' style is pretty much straight-up and more consistently serious. Merle's style seems to be completely spontaneous and somewhat quirky at times. Edgar? Well, Edgar is just Edgar. Anyway I don't think anybody here is trying to hurt anyone's feelings or purposely trying to offend. There is sometimes jabs here and there (I certainly jab sometimes), but I assume that's just to get someone's attention or emphasis a point. Those are my thoughts on this...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  a comforting well thought out post chris...merle  I think the inescapable meanness in your words here show very well that there is no permanent essence attached to persons or to awakening. Sometimes Merle's words show she gets it, at that time. Sometimes your words show that. Everyone that writes here has I think missed the mark from time to time. Thatâs a good lesson-we aren't really separate from one another and sometimes we join the dance eyes open and sometimes eyes closed, so our partners make way for us. I respect your long history of practise and achievement, but with language like every and compared and more advanced I think you show us that no amount of practise is enough. You may hold to an essential difference between yourself and Merle and I as less advanced, but today I do not see that dividing line. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 17, 2013 6:42 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Chris, I've seen Merle trivialize it, in every post.  Hi, Cous'!  Luv ya. Compared to / with her posts, Americans are more advanced in practice than you and me. Trivialize?  I'm an old man, C.  This goes / has gone with the territory.  But, find yourself in a community of practitioners, and you will find critical mass. Looky-here, C.: there's Zen; and, there's hooey.  I think it's always been so.  When it comes to Zen... only a Practitioner, well, knows.  We forgive all trivializations.  How could anyone else know?  We know that practice is necessary.  And we try to extend our appreciation of our practice to others.  But do not proselytize. This is why I teach.  To the extent that I do.  Since 1980. I don't forgive my (your) culture; and, I don't indict it.  It takes a Certain Maturity, to take up our Practice.  You won't find it online.  Usually.  Rare exceptions.  Bill!, and me;  Mike; and you.  Maybe some lurkers.  And Mr. Zendervish, here, certainly.  Kudos, and hail!, all non-fuddlers! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: http://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here.  You've never seen US culture trivialize zen? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
yes bill..good observation...merle Merle, Chris and Joe... Chris' post was well thought out. His posts usually are, even the ones I disagree with. In this one I especially liked his observation that especially on this site Everyone that writes here has I think missed the mark from time to time. I do think however a good deal of Chris' discomfort with Joe's posts are more of style than substance. Joe uses humor, which sometimes leads to quips and sarcasm. Some people take those more personally and harshly than others. Chris' style is pretty much straight-up and more consistently serious. Merle's style seems to be completely spontaneous and somewhat quirky at times. Edgar? Well, Edgar is just Edgar. Anyway I don't think anybody here is trying to hurt anyone's feelings or purposely trying to offend. There is sometimes jabs here and there (I certainly jab sometimes), but I assume that's just to get someone's attention or emphasis a point. Those are my thoughts on this...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  a comforting well thought out post chris...merle  I think the inescapable meanness in your words here show very well that there is no permanent essence attached to persons or to awakening. Sometimes Merle's words show she gets it, at that time. Sometimes your words show that. Everyone that writes here has I think missed the mark from time to time. That’s a good lesson-we aren't really separate from one another and sometimes we join the dance eyes open and sometimes eyes closed, so our partners make way for us. I respect your long history of practise and achievement, but with language like every and compared and more advanced I think you show us that no amount of practise is enough. You may hold to an essential difference between yourself and Merle and I as less advanced, but today I do not see that dividing line. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 17, 2013 6:42 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Chris, I've seen Merle trivialize it, in every post.  Hi, Cous'!  Luv ya. Compared to / with her posts, Americans are more advanced in practice than you and me. Trivialize?  I'm an old man, C.  This goes / has gone with the territory.  But, find yourself in a community of practitioners, and you will find critical mass. Looky-here, C.: there's Zen; and, there's hooey.  I think it's always been so.  When it comes to Zen... only a Practitioner, well, knows.  We forgive all trivializations.  How could anyone else know?  We know that practice is necessary.  And we try to extend our appreciation of our practice to others.  But do not proselytize. This is why I teach.  To the extent that I do.  Since 1980. I don't forgive my (your) culture; and, I don't indict it.  It takes a Certain Maturity, to take up our Practice.  You won't find it online.  Usually.  Rare exceptions.  Bill!, and me;  Mike; and you.  Maybe some lurkers.  And Mr. Zendervish, here, certainly.  Kudos, and hail!, all non-fuddlers! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: http://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here.  You've never seen US culture trivialize zen? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Re: God
I am often charged with having no sense of humor, indeed and in person. A defensive posture adopted for often being puzzled by human interaction. I will try to act from a stance that all here have good will. I myself am about to pack up my zafu for a trip back to my family of origin, to share a week at the edge of the Atlantic Ocean and welcome my new niece. I will probably have even more time to write here than normally. May these bits find all of us well, free of suffering and well in our body/minds and our interrelating. http://www.zensoaps.com Love, Chris Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 18, 2013 6:57 PM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Merle, Chris and Joe... Chris' post was well thought out. His posts usually are, even the ones I disagree with. In this one I especially liked his observation that especially on this site Everyone that writes here has I think missed the mark from time to time. I do think however a good deal of Chris' discomfort with Joe's posts are more of style than substance. Joe uses humor, which sometimes leads to quips and sarcasm. Some people take those more personally and harshly than others. Chris' style is pretty much straight-up and more consistently serious. Merle's style seems to be completely spontaneous and somewhat quirky at times. Edgar? Well, Edgar is just Edgar. Anyway I don't think anybody here is trying to hurt anyone's feelings or purposely trying to offend. There is sometimes jabs here and there (I certainly jab sometimes), but I assume that's just to get someone's attention or emphasis a point. Those are my thoughts on this...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  a comforting well thought out post chris...merle  I think the inescapable meanness in your words here show very well that there is no permanent essence attached to persons or to awakening. Sometimes Merle's words show she gets it, at that time. Sometimes your words show that. Everyone that writes here has I think missed the mark from time to time. That’s a good lesson-we aren't really separate from one another and sometimes we join the dance eyes open and sometimes eyes closed, so our partners make way for us. I respect your long history of practise and achievement, but with language like every and compared and more advanced I think you show us that no amount of practise is enough. You may hold to an essential difference between yourself and Merle and I as less advanced, but today I do not see that dividing line. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 17, 2013 6:42 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Chris, I've seen Merle trivialize it, in every post.  Hi, Cous'!  Luv ya. Compared to / with her posts, Americans are more advanced in practice than you and me. Trivialize?  I'm an old man, C.  This goes / has gone with the territory.  But, find yourself in a community of practitioners, and you will find critical mass. Looky-here, C.: there's Zen; and, there's hooey.  I think it's always been so.  When it comes to Zen... only a Practitioner, well, knows.  We forgive all trivializations.  How could anyone else know?  We know that practice is necessary.  And we try to extend our appreciation of our practice to others.  But do not proselytize. This is why I teach.  To the extent that I do.  Since 1980. I don't forgive my (your) culture; and, I don't indict it.  It takes a Certain Maturity, to take up our Practice.  You won't find it online.  Usually.  Rare exceptions.  Bill!, and me;  Mike; and you.  Maybe some lurkers.  And Mr. Zendervish, here, certainly.  Kudos, and hail!, all non-fuddlers! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: http://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here.  You've never seen US culture trivialize zen? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Re: God
Chris, I do agree with you both in changing the emphasis on the term to 'meeting God', and I do agree with you that all these terms are made up after-the-fact to try to communicate a holistic experience in dualistic terms (language). Not an easy task. I also think 'Buddha Nature' and especially 'God' have too many meanings now to be really useful. That's why I e-bend over backwards to clearly define what I mean when I use the term 'Buddha Nature'. It's definitely not the way Edgar uses it and different from Buddhist literature also. I don't think however it is much different than purely zen literature. Also I think most in the West (and Buddhist literature, and especially Edgar) have not trivialized Buddha Nature but super-sized it to mean EVERYTHING. I like the idea of trivializing it. That's what I try to do. Buddha Nature is quintessentially mundane. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: That is pretty much what Sensei Warner is calling the experience of meeting God. Only afterwards, of course, not during. He favors this word over the Buddha nature word for Westerners who have a tendency to trivialize Budda nature. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 16, 2013 9:40 AM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Chris, Warner gets a demerit. One-Mind is the state where-from God can be perceived. From No-Mind there is no such thing. Nor is there anything else. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: I think a more exact parallel is meeting God with experiencing Buddha nature. As a non-Christian mystic I wonder how you derived your theory of seeing God being fundamentally distinct from no-mind. Surely you are not speaking from experience? Credit to Brad Warner for this. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
Bill, Buddha Nature is not so much everything as the true formless nature of everything in which their forms appear. If all forms disappear Buddha Nature is still there. it's the fundamental nameless 'stuff' of reality that makes whatever form appears within it real. Buddha Nature is like the ocean in which waves, ripples and currents appear. Waves, ripples and currents are the forms of the world but their true nature is all water which corresponds to Buddha Nature in the analogy... That's not trivial. Edgar On Jun 17, 2013, at 4:25 AM, Bill! wrote: Chris, I do agree with you both in changing the emphasis on the term to 'meeting God', and I do agree with you that all these terms are made up after-the-fact to try to communicate a holistic experience in dualistic terms (language). Not an easy task. I also think 'Buddha Nature' and especially 'God' have too many meanings now to be really useful. That's why I e-bend over backwards to clearly define what I mean when I use the term 'Buddha Nature'. It's definitely not the way Edgar uses it and different from Buddhist literature also. I don't think however it is much different than purely zen literature. Also I think most in the West (and Buddhist literature, and especially Edgar) have not trivialized Buddha Nature but super-sized it to mean EVERYTHING. I like the idea of trivializing it. That's what I try to do. Buddha Nature is quintessentially mundane. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: That is pretty much what Sensei Warner is calling the experience of meeting God. Only afterwards, of course, not during. He favors this word over the Buddha nature word for Westerners who have a tendency to trivialize Budda nature. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 16, 2013 9:40 AM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Chris, Warner gets a demerit. One-Mind is the state where-from God can be perceived. From No-Mind there is no such thing. Nor is there anything else. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: I think a more exact parallel is meeting God with experiencing Buddha nature. As a non-Christian mystic I wonder how you derived your theory of seeing God being fundamentally distinct from no-mind. Surely you are not speaking from experience? Credit to Brad Warner for this. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Re: God
Edgar, No, your explanation below is not trivial at all. That's just what I said in my previous post. It's super-sizing it. Buddha Nature is Just THIS! That's trivial. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Buddha Nature is not so much everything as the true formless nature of everything in which their forms appear. If all forms disappear Buddha Nature is still there. it's the fundamental nameless 'stuff' of reality that makes whatever form appears within it real. Buddha Nature is like the ocean in which waves, ripples and currents appear. Waves, ripples and currents are the forms of the world but their true nature is all water which corresponds to Buddha Nature in the analogy... That's not trivial. Edgar On Jun 17, 2013, at 4:25 AM, Bill! wrote: Chris, I do agree with you both in changing the emphasis on the term to 'meeting God', and I do agree with you that all these terms are made up after-the-fact to try to communicate a holistic experience in dualistic terms (language). Not an easy task. I also think 'Buddha Nature' and especially 'God' have too many meanings now to be really useful. That's why I e-bend over backwards to clearly define what I mean when I use the term 'Buddha Nature'. It's definitely not the way Edgar uses it and different from Buddhist literature also. I don't think however it is much different than purely zen literature. Also I think most in the West (and Buddhist literature, and especially Edgar) have not trivialized Buddha Nature but super-sized it to mean EVERYTHING. I like the idea of trivializing it. That's what I try to do. Buddha Nature is quintessentially mundane. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: That is pretty much what Sensei Warner is calling the experience of meeting God. Only afterwards, of course, not during. He favors this word over the Buddha nature word for Westerners who have a tendency to trivialize Budda nature. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 16, 2013 9:40 AM, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Chris, Warner gets a demerit. One-Mind is the state where-from God can be perceived. From No-Mind there is no such thing. Nor is there anything else. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: I think a more exact parallel is meeting God with experiencing Buddha nature. As a non-Christian mystic I wonder how you derived your theory of seeing God being fundamentally distinct from no-mind. Surely you are not speaking from experience? Credit to Brad Warner for this. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
I wasn't really referring to the case when people with a lot of aware experiences of buddha nature trivialize it - that seems like a non-problem to me. I was referring to the tendency of [my, i.e. US] culture to trivialize everything, especially stuff from other traditions, e.g. http://zeninamoment.com/ or http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/list/1 http://bigmind.org/genpo-roshi People want to think that there is some simple fix that they can acquire, rather than that there is no problem, and nothing to fix but their own tendencies to blindness, irritation and wanting stuff, which is extremely non-trivial to lay down, and that the process of laying down these tendencies is so profoundly satisfying that one can't find it trivial; it is as trivial as singing in the rain while feeling happy. In my experience, people in the US are apt to paper over the most profound moments with silly thin ideas, turning away from the suchness we have a chance to share in and turning towards some paper-thing abstraction. Do I think that substituting seeing God or seeing the face of God might help someone understand Just This! or experience Buddha nature? I find it likely enough to be worth discussing. --Chris Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 16, 2013 1:47 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, thank you taking the care to translate. All copied. ;-) Silly thin ideas? Are those thumb-pressed keys really making OK contact? Is there anyone here new to Zen who you will help? I hope so. Happy Day, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I reread my paragraph and the garbled bit is so then I am not really addressing you rather than do then I am really addressing you. I am not addressing you because you seem to have some idea of one mind is God seeing and no mind is superior. I am trying to make a point about using rhe language to meet God instead of experience Buddha nature so that Westerners new to Zen will not mistake silly thin ideas for experiencing Buddha nature. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Re: God
Edgar, Your reply is off-topic. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: More total Catholic BS. God couldn't care less what any humans think or do Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: God
Bill!, 'WAY down in the basement, I say. Several flights downwards. But, the wine-cellar; the wine-cellar!: Is my Chateau d'Yquem Sauternes so mundane as all that? No, sir: it is the very nectar of this planet, this Life, in this sector of the Galaxy. Find me another such, and I will say you are a fraud, small f. A toast! A small toast. This nectar is rare, and expensive. Let's pass it sufficiently around. And keep on doing so. There are many who should taste and drink. It is plentiful, but it seems only a few will taste. Golden, golden nectar. Hail! --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Buddha Nature is quintessentially mundane. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: God
Chris, I never heard such stuff. Dunno where you may be coming from. It may be just a geographic or cultural proclivity, or merely and importantly personal. I hope you and your chosen teacher will take these things up, if they are important in (Zen) practice. Best, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I wasn't really referring to the case when people with a lot of aware experiences of buddha nature trivialize it - that seems like a non-problem to me. I was referring to the tendency of [my, i.e. US] culture to trivialize everything, especially stuff from other traditions, e.g. http://zeninamoment.com/ or http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/list/1 http://bigmind.org/genpo-roshi People want to think that there is some simple fix that they can acquire, rather than that there is no problem, and nothing to fix but their own tendencies to blindness, irritation and wanting stuff, which is extremely non-trivial to lay down, and that the process of laying down these tendencies is so profoundly satisfying that one can't find it trivial; it is as trivial as singing in the rain while feeling happy. In my experience, people in the US are apt to paper over the most profound moments with silly thin ideas, turning away from the suchness we have a chance to share in and turning towards some paper-thing abstraction. Do I think that substituting seeing God or seeing the face of God might help someone understand Just This! or experience Buddha nature? I find it likely enough to be worth discussing. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
http://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here. You've never seen US culture trivialize zen? http://cherrycrime26.hubpages.com/hub/Meditation-Techniques-To-Manifest-Money http://www.zenprofits.com/ http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Centered-Transform-Your-Weeks-Meditation/dp/1401935869 Oh well, Chris Thanks, --Chris ch...@austin-lane.net +1-301-270-6524 On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 4:59 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, I never heard such stuff. Dunno where you may be coming from. It may be just a geographic or cultural proclivity, or merely and importantly personal. I hope you and your chosen teacher will take these things up, if they are important in (Zen) practice. Best, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I wasn't really referring to the case when people with a lot of aware experiences of buddha nature trivialize it - that seems like a non-problem to me. I was referring to the tendency of [my, i.e. US] culture to trivialize everything, especially stuff from other traditions, e.g. http://zeninamoment.com/ or http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/list/1 http://bigmind.org/genpo-roshi People want to think that there is some simple fix that they can acquire, rather than that there is no problem, and nothing to fix but their own tendencies to blindness, irritation and wanting stuff, which is extremely non-trivial to lay down, and that the process of laying down these tendencies is so profoundly satisfying that one can't find it trivial; it is as trivial as singing in the rain while feeling happy. In my experience, people in the US are apt to paper over the most profound moments with silly thin ideas, turning away from the suchness we have a chance to share in and turning towards some paper-thing abstraction. Do I think that substituting seeing God or seeing the face of God might help someone understand Just This! or experience Buddha nature? I find it likely enough to be worth discussing. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Re: God
Chris, You're wrapped-up in your reading. I say, God bless. Passion is passion. It is the best, where applied. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: http://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here. You've never seen US culture trivialize zen? http://cherrycrime26.hubpages.com/hub/Meditation-Techniques-To-Manifest-Money http://www.zenprofits.com/ http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Centered-Transform-Your-Weeks-Meditation/dp/1401935869 Oh well, Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: God
Chris, I've seen Merle trivialize it, in every post. Hi, Cous'! Luv ya. Compared to / with her posts, Americans are more advanced in practice than you and me. Trivialize? I'm an old man, C. This goes / has gone with the territory. But, find yourself in a community of practitioners, and you will find critical mass. Looky-here, C.: there's Zen; and, there's hooey. I think it's always been so. When it comes to Zen... only a Practitioner, well, knows. We forgive all trivializations. How could anyone else know? We know that practice is necessary. And we try to extend our appreciation of our practice to others. But do not proselytize. This is why I teach. To the extent that I do. Since 1980. I don't forgive my (your) culture; and, I don't indict it. It takes a Certain Maturity, to take up our Practice. You won't find it online. Usually. Rare exceptions. Bill!, and me; Mike; and you. Maybe some lurkers. And Mr. Zendervish, here, certainly. Kudos, and hail!, all non-fuddlers! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: http://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here. You've never seen US culture trivialize zen? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
yes chris..you are on the correct path to this trivial...i think edgar calls it comic book zen...merle http://www.thesatoriteacompany.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IK735YHVtA http://zenhabits.net/ I believe you must simply be failing to understand my words here. You've never seen US culture trivialize zen? http://cherrycrime26.hubpages.com/hub/Meditation-Techniques-To-Manifest-Money http://www.zenprofits.com/ http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Centered-Transform-Your-Weeks-Meditation/dp/1401935869 Oh well, Chris Thanks, --Chris ch...@austin-lane.net +1-301-270-6524 On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 4:59 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, I never heard such stuff. Dunno where you may be coming from. It may be just a geographic or cultural proclivity, or merely and importantly personal. I hope you and your chosen teacher will take these things up, if they are important in (Zen) practice. Best, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I wasn't really referring to the case when people with a lot of aware experiences of buddha nature trivialize it - that seems like a non-problem to me. I was referring to the tendency of [my, i.e. US] culture to trivialize everything, especially stuff from other traditions, e.g. http://zeninamoment.com/ or http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/list/1 http://bigmind.org/genpo-roshi People want to think that there is some simple fix that they can acquire, rather than that there is no problem, and nothing to fix but their own tendencies to blindness, irritation and wanting stuff, which is extremely non-trivial to lay down, and that the process of laying down these tendencies is so profoundly satisfying that one can't find it trivial; it is as trivial as singing in the rain while feeling happy. In my experience, people in the US are apt to paper over the most profound moments with silly thin ideas, turning away from the suchness we have a chance to share in and turning towards some paper-thing abstraction. Do I think that substituting seeing God or seeing the face of God might help someone understand Just This! or experience Buddha nature? I find it likely enough to be worth discussing. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Re: God
joe..chris is making an observation...respect this... merle Chris, I never heard such stuff. Dunno where you may be coming from. It may be just a geographic or cultural proclivity, or merely and importantly personal. I hope you and your chosen teacher will take these things up, if they are important in (Zen) practice. Best, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I wasn't really referring to the case when people with a lot of aware experiences of buddha nature trivialize it - that seems like a non-problem to me. I was referring to the tendency of [my, i.e. US] culture to trivialize everything, especially stuff from other traditions, e.g. http://zeninamoment.com/ or http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/list/1 http://bigmind.org/genpo-roshi People want to think that there is some simple fix that they can acquire, rather than that there is no problem, and nothing to fix but their own tendencies to blindness, irritation and wanting stuff, which is extremely non-trivial to lay down, and that the process of laying down these tendencies is so profoundly satisfying that one can't find it trivial; it is as trivial as singing in the rain while feeling happy. In my experience, people in the US are apt to paper over the most profound moments with silly thin ideas, turning away from the suchness we have a chance to share in and turning towards some paper-thing abstraction. Do I think that substituting seeing God or seeing the face of God might help someone understand Just This! or experience Buddha nature? I find it likely enough to be worth discussing.
Re: [Zen] Re: God
joe...what nectar?...you not stealing from the bees again?...merle Bill!, 'WAY down in the basement, I say. Several flights downwards. But, the wine-cellar; the wine-cellar!: Is my Chateau d'Yquem Sauternes so mundane as all that? No, sir: it is the very nectar of this planet, this Life, in this sector of the Galaxy. Find me another such, and I will say you are a fraud, small f. A toast! A small toast. This nectar is rare, and expensive. Let's pass it sufficiently around. And keep on doing so. There are many who should taste and drink. It is plentiful, but it seems only a few will taste. Golden, golden nectar. Hail! --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Buddha Nature is quintessentially mundane.
[Zen] Re: God
Merle, I respect all Observers. --Joe / Observational Astronomer Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: Â joe..chris is making an observation...respect this... merle Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: God
Merle, You're just a tender Egoist. I can't blame you. You provide a prime example. I don't mean to toast or roast you, specifically, pointedly. You're just a victim who happens to be close at hand and who everybody here knows, as far as her trivialization of Zen goes, in the past. You're not as bad as you used to be; so, congrats on Progress. Thanks for being a good case study for us, here, in this post. On, to better things! --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe...i am doing the quick sharp zen observation joe..short sharp and to the point... just cos you mince a thousand words..it ain't getting you any closer to the zen of it all either... rambling on and on and on and on...ain't zen from what i have gathered... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: God
Edgar, Joe and Merle, Actually I don't think God and Buddha Nature have much in common at all. One is an illusion and the other is an experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Edgar, Almost! Maybe you mean substitute Buddha Nature for God. You can still go wrong if a Zen teacher does not confirm that your awakening is of the Zen kind, and corrects or extends your course. A practitioner could otherwise sail to and stop at the wrong place entirely, and be forever (self-) misled. It happens! Some end up at desert islands. These destinations are called Outer Paths. Some of them are religions, and involve gods. Buddhadharma does not involve gods. And Zen Buddhism does not. But, you and others might say: Ah: but you drink the water and know for yourself whether it is warm or cold! But that TOO was a Zen teacher who taught that ...and to just ONE student. Too bad it's quoted out of context so much and folks imaginatively believe it applies to them, as strangers who never met the teacher! Ours is a special transmission of Mind outside the scriptures, not dependent on words and letters: ...it was another Zen teacher said this! --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Just substitute God for Buddha Nature and you won't go wrong.. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
Bill, In your mind maybe but I just define them as the same thing Edgar On Jun 16, 2013, at 6:09 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Joe and Merle, Actually I don't think God and Buddha Nature have much in common at all. One is an illusion and the other is an experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Edgar, Almost! Maybe you mean substitute Buddha Nature for God. You can still go wrong if a Zen teacher does not confirm that your awakening is of the Zen kind, and corrects or extends your course. A practitioner could otherwise sail to and stop at the wrong place entirely, and be forever (self-) misled. It happens! Some end up at desert islands. These destinations are called Outer Paths. Some of them are religions, and involve gods. Buddhadharma does not involve gods. And Zen Buddhism does not. But, you and others might say: Ah: but you drink the water and know for yourself whether it is warm or cold! But that TOO was a Zen teacher who taught that ...and to just ONE student. Too bad it's quoted out of context so much and folks imaginatively believe it applies to them, as strangers who never met the teacher! Ours is a special transmission of Mind outside the scriptures, not dependent on words and letters: ...it was another Zen teacher said this! --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Just substitute God for Buddha Nature and you won't go wrong..
[Zen] Re: God
Edgar, Yes, I see that you define them as the same thing. That's fine. I don't however. I assume that's fine too... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, In your mind maybe but I just define them as the same thing Edgar On Jun 16, 2013, at 6:09 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Joe and Merle, Actually I don't think God and Buddha Nature have much in common at all. One is an illusion and the other is an experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, Almost! Maybe you mean substitute Buddha Nature for God. You can still go wrong if a Zen teacher does not confirm that your awakening is of the Zen kind, and corrects or extends your course. A practitioner could otherwise sail to and stop at the wrong place entirely, and be forever (self-) misled. It happens! Some end up at desert islands. These destinations are called Outer Paths. Some of them are religions, and involve gods. Buddhadharma does not involve gods. And Zen Buddhism does not. But, you and others might say: Ah: but you drink the water and know for yourself whether it is warm or cold! But that TOO was a Zen teacher who taught that ...and to just ONE student. Too bad it's quoted out of context so much and folks imaginatively believe it applies to them, as strangers who never met the teacher! Ours is a special transmission of Mind outside the scriptures, not dependent on words and letters: ...it was another Zen teacher said this! --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Just substitute God for Buddha Nature and you won't go wrong.. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
Bill, Why not define God as a positive reality rather than a religious delusion? Edgar On Jun 16, 2013, at 7:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, I see that you define them as the same thing. That's fine. I don't however. I assume that's fine too... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, In your mind maybe but I just define them as the same thing Edgar On Jun 16, 2013, at 6:09 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Joe and Merle, Actually I don't think God and Buddha Nature have much in common at all. One is an illusion and the other is an experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, Almost! Maybe you mean substitute Buddha Nature for God. You can still go wrong if a Zen teacher does not confirm that your awakening is of the Zen kind, and corrects or extends your course. A practitioner could otherwise sail to and stop at the wrong place entirely, and be forever (self-) misled. It happens! Some end up at desert islands. These destinations are called Outer Paths. Some of them are religions, and involve gods. Buddhadharma does not involve gods. And Zen Buddhism does not. But, you and others might say: Ah: but you drink the water and know for yourself whether it is warm or cold! But that TOO was a Zen teacher who taught that ...and to just ONE student. Too bad it's quoted out of context so much and folks imaginatively believe it applies to them, as strangers who never met the teacher! Ours is a special transmission of Mind outside the scriptures, not dependent on words and letters: ...it was another Zen teacher said this! --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Just substitute God for Buddha Nature and you won't go wrong..
[Zen] Re: God
Edgar, Because God is a delusion and not a reality. I could go with the 'religious' modifier of delusion, but WTF is a 'positive' reality? I mean reality is reality. There's no positive or negative about it. It's just reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Why not define God as a positive reality rather than a religious delusion? Edgar On Jun 16, 2013, at 7:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, I see that you define them as the same thing. That's fine. I don't however. I assume that's fine too... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, In your mind maybe but I just define them as the same thing Edgar On Jun 16, 2013, at 6:09 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Joe and Merle, Actually I don't think God and Buddha Nature have much in common at all. One is an illusion and the other is an experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, Almost! Maybe you mean substitute Buddha Nature for God. You can still go wrong if a Zen teacher does not confirm that your awakening is of the Zen kind, and corrects or extends your course. A practitioner could otherwise sail to and stop at the wrong place entirely, and be forever (self-) misled. It happens! Some end up at desert islands. These destinations are called Outer Paths. Some of them are religions, and involve gods. Buddhadharma does not involve gods. And Zen Buddhism does not. But, you and others might say: Ah: but you drink the water and know for yourself whether it is warm or cold! But that TOO was a Zen teacher who taught that ...and to just ONE student. Too bad it's quoted out of context so much and folks imaginatively believe it applies to them, as strangers who never met the teacher! Ours is a special transmission of Mind outside the scriptures, not dependent on words and letters: ...it was another Zen teacher said this! --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Just substitute God for Buddha Nature and you won't go wrong.. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
Positive in the sense of actual as opposed to illusory By defining God as a delusion (the way the religions do) you clutter your mind with one more very BIG delusion. If you simply define God as the universe whose nature is Buddha Nature you clear and clean your mind.. That's why. Edgar On Jun 16, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Because God is a delusion and not a reality. I could go with the 'religious' modifier of delusion, but WTF is a 'positive' reality? I mean reality is reality. There's no positive or negative about it. It's just reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Why not define God as a positive reality rather than a religious delusion? Edgar On Jun 16, 2013, at 7:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, I see that you define them as the same thing. That's fine. I don't however. I assume that's fine too... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, In your mind maybe but I just define them as the same thing Edgar On Jun 16, 2013, at 6:09 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Joe and Merle, Actually I don't think God and Buddha Nature have much in common at all. One is an illusion and the other is an experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, Almost! Maybe you mean substitute Buddha Nature for God. You can still go wrong if a Zen teacher does not confirm that your awakening is of the Zen kind, and corrects or extends your course. A practitioner could otherwise sail to and stop at the wrong place entirely, and be forever (self-) misled. It happens! Some end up at desert islands. These destinations are called Outer Paths. Some of them are religions, and involve gods. Buddhadharma does not involve gods. And Zen Buddhism does not. But, you and others might say: Ah: but you drink the water and know for yourself whether it is warm or cold! But that TOO was a Zen teacher who taught that ...and to just ONE student. Too bad it's quoted out of context so much and folks imaginatively believe it applies to them, as strangers who never met the teacher! Ours is a special transmission of Mind outside the scriptures, not dependent on words and letters: ...it was another Zen teacher said this! --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Just substitute God for Buddha Nature and you won't go wrong..
[Zen] Re: God
Edgar, Your train of thought amazes me sometimes. I don't clutter up my mind with god because even if I think about god, like when someone asks a question or makes a statement about him/her, I'm not attached to the thought. It's attachments that stick around and cause the clutter, not the thoughts. The thoughts come and go. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Positive in the sense of actual as opposed to illusory By defining God as a delusion (the way the religions do) you clutter your mind with one more very BIG delusion. If you simply define God as the universe whose nature is Buddha Nature you clear and clean your mind.. That's why. Edgar On Jun 16, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Because God is a delusion and not a reality. I could go with the 'religious' modifier of delusion, but WTF is a 'positive' reality? I mean reality is reality. There's no positive or negative about it. It's just reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Why not define God as a positive reality rather than a religious delusion? Edgar On Jun 16, 2013, at 7:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Yes, I see that you define them as the same thing. That's fine. I don't however. I assume that's fine too... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, In your mind maybe but I just define them as the same thing Edgar On Jun 16, 2013, at 6:09 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Joe and Merle, Actually I don't think God and Buddha Nature have much in common at all. One is an illusion and the other is an experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Edgar, Almost! Maybe you mean substitute Buddha Nature for God. You can still go wrong if a Zen teacher does not confirm that your awakening is of the Zen kind, and corrects or extends your course. A practitioner could otherwise sail to and stop at the wrong place entirely, and be forever (self-) misled. It happens! Some end up at desert islands. These destinations are called Outer Paths. Some of them are religions, and involve gods. Buddhadharma does not involve gods. And Zen Buddhism does not. But, you and others might say: Ah: but you drink the water and know for yourself whether it is warm or cold! But that TOO was a Zen teacher who taught that ...and to just ONE student. Too bad it's quoted out of context so much and folks imaginatively believe it applies to them, as strangers who never met the teacher! Ours is a special transmission of Mind outside the scriptures, not dependent on words and letters: ...it was another Zen teacher said this! --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Just substitute God for Buddha Nature and you won't go wrong.. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: God
Bill!, Edgar, Nobody's act of defining changes the fact that one is an experience and one is an illusion. Christian Contemplative Mystics experience God, and they suppose that the Buddha Nature they've heard about is some poor unsaved person's illusion; Zen Buddhists experience Buddha Nature and suppose that God must be somebody elses' illusion who has not yet heard of Buddhadharma. But a distinction we can draw is that Buddha Nature is experienced only when there is No-Mind. God is an experience of people who stop at One-Mind in their practice. This is why a Zen teacher is absolutely necessary to guide a practitioner to *keep going* in intensive practice, and not to stop at One-Mind. One cannot do this oneself. If you stop at One-Mind (a quite wonderful state, itself), you do not experience No-Mind, and you do not therefore know Zen, and Zen-Mind, which is No-Mind. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, Yes, I see that you define them as the same thing. That's fine. I don't however. I assume that's fine too... ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: God
Edgar, Defining is clutter. One more non-water-soluble brick in the mind. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Positive in the sense of actual as opposed to illusory By defining God as a delusion (the way the religions do) you clutter your mind with one more very BIG delusion. If you simply define God as the universe whose nature is Buddha Nature you clear and clean your mind.. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
Joe, Wrong as usual. God is a defined concept in the minds of men. There is nothing 'out there' in the real world that has a little paper label with god written on it. Thus it's best to define it as a name for something that actually really exists such as the universe rather than something which is a delusion like the Gods of the major religions Edgar On Jun 16, 2013, at 11:43 AM, Joe wrote: Bill!, Edgar, Nobody's act of defining changes the fact that one is an experience and one is an illusion. Christian Contemplative Mystics experience God, and they suppose that the Buddha Nature they've heard about is some poor unsaved person's illusion; Zen Buddhists experience Buddha Nature and suppose that God must be somebody elses' illusion who has not yet heard of Buddhadharma. But a distinction we can draw is that Buddha Nature is experienced only when there is No-Mind. God is an experience of people who stop at One-Mind in their practice. This is why a Zen teacher is absolutely necessary to guide a practitioner to *keep going* in intensive practice, and not to stop at One-Mind. One cannot do this oneself. If you stop at One-Mind (a quite wonderful state, itself), you do not experience No-Mind, and you do not therefore know Zen, and Zen-Mind, which is No-Mind. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, Yes, I see that you define them as the same thing. That's fine. I don't however. I assume that's fine too... ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: God
I think a more exact parallel is meeting God with experiencing Buddha nature. As a non-Christian mystic I wonder how you derived your theory of seeing God being fundamentally distinct from no-mind. Surely you are not speaking from experience? Credit to Brad Warner for this. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 16, 2013 8:43 AM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Bill!, Edgar, Nobody's act of defining changes the fact that one is an experience and one is an illusion. Christian Contemplative Mystics experience God, and they suppose that the Buddha Nature they've heard about is some poor unsaved person's illusion; Zen Buddhists experience Buddha Nature and suppose that God must be somebody elses' illusion who has not yet heard of Buddhadharma. But a distinction we can draw is that Buddha Nature is experienced only when there is No-Mind. God is an experience of people who stop at One-Mind in their practice. This is why a Zen teacher is absolutely necessary to guide a practitioner to *keep going* in intensive practice, and not to stop at One-Mind. One cannot do this oneself. If you stop at One-Mind (a quite wonderful state, itself), you do not experience No-Mind, and you do not therefore know Zen, and Zen-Mind, which is No-Mind. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, Yes, I see that you define them as the same thing. That's fine. I don't however. I assume that's fine too... ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Re: God
Edgar, You define it, you limit it, you own it. That is not reality. Take your wrong and own THAT. You do. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, Wrong as usual. God is a defined concept in the minds of men. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: God
Chris, Warner gets a demerit. One-Mind is the state where-from God can be perceived. From No-Mind there is no such thing. Nor is there anything else. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I think a more exact parallel is meeting God with experiencing Buddha nature. As a non-Christian mystic I wonder how you derived your theory of seeing God being fundamentally distinct from no-mind. Surely you are not speaking from experience? Credit to Brad Warner for this. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
That is pretty much what Sensei Warner is calling the experience of meeting God. Only afterwards, of course, not during. He favors this word over the Buddha nature word for Westerners who have a tendency to trivialize Budda nature. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 16, 2013 9:40 AM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, Warner gets a demerit. One-Mind is the state where-from God can be perceived. From No-Mind there is no such thing. Nor is there anything else. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I think a more exact parallel is meeting God with experiencing Buddha nature. As a non-Christian mystic I wonder how you derived your theory of seeing God being fundamentally distinct from no-mind. Surely you are not speaking from experience? Credit to Brad Warner for this. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Re: God
Chris, That's interesting. Probably only in the recent book of his I've heard you name does he do that(?). Not everybody in the West who comes to Zen practice is going to be thrilled by talk of God, in any connection. But they can just avoid buying his book. ;-) I've never heard of anyone trivializing Buddha Nature. If anything, they trivialize God: and that's why they've left the religion of their father (or mother, if they are Jewish). Having not attained One-Mind (most Christians and Jews and Muslims are not mystical practitioners, unfortunately), they don't have the experience of God, and carry only the cultural transmission of a God-influence in family, society, and History, and through worship gatherings. Experience of No-Mind, Buddha Mind, Buddha Nature, Zen-Mind, Nirmanakaya, etc., names for the same experience, does not cause one to de-value the experience of others who met God, and lived in One-Mind state for a while, or live as such now, but it certainly dissuades us from staying there, at One-Mind. Not that it's a bad state. It's just that, once you have lived with Zen-Mind, you know One-Mind for what it is. Again, it's not bad, though. But it does not bewitch you, and cannot: One just keeps practicing. A happy Father's Day to you, Old Man! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: That is pretty much what Sensei Warner is calling the experience of meeting God. Only afterwards, of course, not during. He favors this word over the Buddha nature word for Westerners who have a tendency to trivialize Budda nature. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
I think we can find people on this very listserv that trivialize Buddha nature, making it a picture of itself rather. And you seem resolute in keeping rhe meanings you assign to words and to change the topic to that rather than working for communication about the meanings I was explaining for the words, do then I am really addressing you. If you wish to have some discussion about one mind, fine, but I am interested in discussion the parallels between experiencing Buddha nature and meeting God. In order to convey to Westerner's that this experience is not some small point. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 16, 2013 10:21 AM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, That's interesting. Probably only in the recent book of his I've heard you name does he do that(?). Not everybody in the West who comes to Zen practice is going to be thrilled by talk of God, in any connection. But they can just avoid buying his book. ;-) I've never heard of anyone trivializing Buddha Nature. If anything, they trivialize God: and that's why they've left the religion of their father (or mother, if they are Jewish). Having not attained One-Mind (most Christians and Jews and Muslims are not mystical practitioners, unfortunately), they don't have the experience of God, and carry only the cultural transmission of a God-influence in family, society, and History, and through worship gatherings. Experience of No-Mind, Buddha Mind, Buddha Nature, Zen-Mind, Nirmanakaya, etc., names for the same experience, does not cause one to de-value the experience of others who met God, and lived in One-Mind state for a while, or live as such now, but it certainly dissuades us from staying there, at One-Mind. Not that it's a bad state. It's just that, once you have lived with Zen-Mind, you know One-Mind for what it is. Again, it's not bad, though. But it does not bewitch you, and cannot: One just keeps practicing. A happy Father's Day to you, Old Man! --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: That is pretty much what Sensei Warner is calling the experience of meeting God. Only afterwards, of course, not during. He favors this word over the Buddha nature word for Westerners who have a tendency to trivialize Budda nature. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Re: God
Chris, Something's garbled in that reply's 2nd paragraph, Chris. I don't know if I can pull it out. Maybe try a full-sized keybd.? As far as trivializing Buddha Nature goes, even to do so in speech one or two times may not ruin a person's career in Zen practice: we live a long life. Once it is experienced, there is no trivializing that would come to mind. And since Zen is not the Teaching School, one need not, as a teacher, say much, or anything, about Buddha Nature, Nirmanakaya, etc. In Dokusan is another story, perhaps. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I think we can find people on this very listserv that trivialize Buddha nature, making it a picture of itself rather. And you seem resolute in keeping rhe meanings you assign to words and to change the topic to that rather than working for communication about the meanings I was explaining for the words, do then I am really addressing you. If you wish to have some discussion about one mind, fine, but I am interested in discussion the parallels between experiencing Buddha nature and meeting God. In order to convey to Westerner's that this experience is not some small point. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: God
And, Chris, A few people who know God, or profess to, from time to time take the Lord's name in vain. Is this trivializing God? Does their doing this hurt their career as saved Christians? No; the blood of their Savior/Messiah washes away this sin, or has already atoned for it. In Zen practice, I think that no matter what concepts we trivialize, or have trivialized previously, our practice will save us, provided we practice, have a teacher, sangha, sit regularly, etc. I've still never seen anyone trivialize Buddha Nature, not even by making it an image of itself. In fact, I'd like to see some such image, made by someone. Maybe by trivialize you mean what Joe Campbell means when he writes concretize. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I think we can find people on this very listserv that trivialize Buddha nature, making it a picture of itself rather. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: God
Chris, thank you taking the care to translate. All copied. ;-) Silly thin ideas? Are those thumb-pressed keys really making OK contact? Is there anyone here new to Zen who you will help? I hope so. Happy Day, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I reread my paragraph and the garbled bit is so then I am not really addressing you rather than do then I am really addressing you. I am not addressing you because you seem to have some idea of one mind is God seeing and no mind is superior. I am trying to make a point about using rhe language to meet God instead of experience Buddha nature so that Westerners new to Zen will not mistake silly thin ideas for experiencing Buddha nature. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: God
Chris, A Zen teacher, at sesshin, say, will not let you stay at One-Mind, and will encourage you to continue, if the teacher is true and good. You think that is superior. I just say that it is the way of Zen, and Zen training. And a fact of life. You may find this out, when the time comes. No-Mind is Zen-Mind. One-Mind is not bad, as I write, but it is not yet Zen. There is a way to go from One-Mind to No-Mind. That's when Zen opens to a person. Not ever before. Before, it's ideas and feelings. After, it's Zen-Mind. Then you know that you have not been lied to by Buddhas and Patriarchs. And then, you can help those who are new to Zen. With good wishes, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: I am not addressing you because you seem to have some idea of one mind is God seeing and no mind is superior. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
Joe, More total Catholic BS. God couldn't care less what any humans think or do Edgar On Jun 16, 2013, at 2:25 PM, Joe wrote: And, Chris, A few people who know God, or profess to, from time to time take the Lord's name in vain. Is this trivializing God? Does their doing this hurt their career as saved Christians? No; the blood of their Savior/Messiah washes away this sin, or has already atoned for it. In Zen practice, I think that no matter what concepts we trivialize, or have trivialized previously, our practice will save us, provided we practice, have a teacher, sangha, sit regularly, etc. I've still never seen anyone trivialize Buddha Nature, not even by making it an image of itself. In fact, I'd like to see some such image, made by someone. Maybe by trivialize you mean what Joe Campbell means when he writes concretize. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I think we can find people on this very listserv that trivialize Buddha nature, making it a picture of itself rather.
[Zen] Re: God
Suresh, A Zen (Buddhist) forum is not the place to ask anything about God, or a god. But I like what the late Swami Muktananda used to teach, however: God dwells within you as you. This is a traditional teaching of course and comes from the religious culture of India, but it traveled well to -- and within -- the West while he taught in USA and Australia in the 1970s. Ramana Maharshi of course taught a similar message, but, more importantly, taught similar methods of meditation to Muktanada's. It's the methods which are of value to a practitioner: Ideas of God or of realization are just someone else's ideas. Th experience of realization is the only worthwhile aspiration, not understanding or religious piety (unless it is Bhakti, which of course is a good Yoga). Using one or other of the practice methods taught by those masters, or others, you should be able to have an awakening, whether gradual or sudden. I know it is important not to neglect physical practice, either, in order to your support meditation practice, and one's health. And, watch the diet, do not over-eat. Fasting is an important practice, more so than prayer: it is physical, and hence makes a real difference. Best, --Joe SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote: Now what is god? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
Just substitute God for Buddha Nature and you won't go wrong.. EDgar On Jun 15, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Joe wrote: Suresh, A Zen (Buddhist) forum is not the place to ask anything about God, or a god. But I like what the late Swami Muktananda used to teach, however: God dwells within you as you. This is a traditional teaching of course and comes from the religious culture of India, but it traveled well to -- and within -- the West while he taught in USA and Australia in the 1970s. Ramana Maharshi of course taught a similar message, but, more importantly, taught similar methods of meditation to Muktanada's. It's the methods which are of value to a practitioner: Ideas of God or of realization are just someone else's ideas. Th experience of realization is the only worthwhile aspiration, not understanding or religious piety (unless it is Bhakti, which of course is a good Yoga). Using one or other of the practice methods taught by those masters, or others, you should be able to have an awakening, whether gradual or sudden. I know it is important not to neglect physical practice, either, in order to your support meditation practice, and one's health. And, watch the diet, do not over-eat. Fasting is an important practice, more so than prayer: it is physical, and hence makes a real difference. Best, --Joe SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote: Now what is god?
[Zen] Re: God
Edgar, Almost! Maybe you mean substitute Buddha Nature for God. You can still go wrong if a Zen teacher does not confirm that your awakening is of the Zen kind, and corrects or extends your course. A practitioner could otherwise sail to and stop at the wrong place entirely, and be forever (self-) misled. It happens! Some end up at desert islands. These destinations are called Outer Paths. Some of them are religions, and involve gods. Buddhadharma does not involve gods. And Zen Buddhism does not. But, you and others might say: Ah: but you drink the water and know for yourself whether it is warm or cold! But that TOO was a Zen teacher who taught that ...and to just ONE student. Too bad it's quoted out of context so much and folks imaginatively believe it applies to them, as strangers who never met the teacher! Ours is a special transmission of Mind outside the scriptures, not dependent on words and letters: ...it was another Zen teacher said this! --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Just substitute God for Buddha Nature and you won't go wrong.. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
Joe, God tells me you are wrong. He personally confirms my Buddha Nature. Teachers? We don't need no stinkin teachers! Edgar On Jun 15, 2013, at 9:58 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Almost! Maybe you mean substitute Buddha Nature for God. You can still go wrong if a Zen teacher does not confirm that your awakening is of the Zen kind, and corrects or extends your course. A practitioner could otherwise sail to and stop at the wrong place entirely, and be forever (self-) misled. It happens! Some end up at desert islands. These destinations are called Outer Paths. Some of them are religions, and involve gods. Buddhadharma does not involve gods. And Zen Buddhism does not. But, you and others might say: Ah: but you drink the water and know for yourself whether it is warm or cold! But that TOO was a Zen teacher who taught that ...and to just ONE student. Too bad it's quoted out of context so much and folks imaginatively believe it applies to them, as strangers who never met the teacher! Ours is a special transmission of Mind outside the scriptures, not dependent on words and letters: ...it was another Zen teacher said this! --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Just substitute God for Buddha Nature and you won't go wrong..
[Zen] Re: God
Edgar, Who's we? A teacher does not confirm one's Buddha Nature: you do. A teacher confirms your realization of it, by testing you: If you are only half-baked -- then, for your own good, and for all Beings -- it's back in the oven / Ch'an Hall with you! This is Compassion at work. That's the way it is in our Way. You've been telling us all along that you never had this experience. I believe you! And, I think so does Bill!. There may still be time for you to start a practice with a teacher. Life is full of potential, and it's best to go for it. You won't learn anything: it's what you realize that counts. Good luck. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: God tells me you are wrong. He personally confirms my Buddha Nature. Teachers? We don't need no stinkin teachers! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
Joe, It's your 'our'. I've converted all the rest of the yam leaf sect... :-) No really it's just all the kindred beings that listen when God speaks to them. edgar On Jun 15, 2013, at 11:41 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Who's we? A teacher does not confirm one's Buddha Nature: you do. A teacher confirms your realization of it, by testing you: If you are only half-baked -- then, for your own good, and for all Beings -- it's back in the oven / Ch'an Hall with you! This is Compassion at work. That's the way it is in our Way. You've been telling us all along that you never had this experience. I believe you! And, I think so does Bill!. There may still be time for you to start a practice with a teacher. Life is full of potential, and it's best to go for it. You won't learn anything: it's what you realize that counts. Good luck. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: God tells me you are wrong. He personally confirms my Buddha Nature. Teachers? We don't need no stinkin teachers! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: God
Edgar, Sounds like you're day-drinking. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, It's your 'our'. I've converted all the rest of the yam leaf sect... :-) No really it's just all the kindred beings that listen when God speaks to them. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: God
Joe, Yes, God, Buddha and I are sharing a cup of reality with the foxes! Won't you join us? Edgar On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Sounds like you're day-drinking. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, It's your 'our'. I've converted all the rest of the yam leaf sect... :-) No really it's just all the kindred beings that listen when God speaks to them.
Re: [Zen] Re: God
Joe, Yes, God, Buddha and I are sharing a cup of reality with the foxes! Won't you join us? Edgar On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Sounds like you're day-drinking. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, It's your 'our'. I've converted all the rest of the yam leaf sect... :-) No really it's just all the kindred beings that listen when God speaks to them.
Re: [Zen] Re: God
christ was a teacher as was buddha...edgar...merle Edgar, Who's we? A teacher does not confirm one's Buddha Nature: you do. A teacher confirms your realization of it, by testing you: If you are only half-baked -- then, for your own good, and for all Beings -- it's back in the oven / Ch'an Hall with you! This is Compassion at work. That's the way it is in our Way. You've been telling us all along that you never had this experience. I believe you! And, I think so does Bill!. There may still be time for you to start a practice with a teacher. Life is full of potential, and it's best to go for it. You won't learn anything: it's what you realize that counts. Good luck. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: God tells me you are wrong. He personally confirms my Buddha Nature. Teachers? We don't need no stinkin teachers!
