Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik RB1000

[George Skorup]

You can put the 3011 board into a 2011 case if you're after a smaller 
case or wall/backplane mounting.


On 2/2/2017 1:12 AM, Rory Conaway wrote:


Yea, I figured that out after I posted.  Figured we might just have to 
take the board out of the 3011.  We really need something faster than 
the 850x2.


Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2017 7:33 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik RB1000

The one that's several years old at this point?



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 







*From: *"Rory Conaway" >

*To: *af@afmug.com 
*Sent: *Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:17:32 PM
*Subject: *[AFMUG] Mikrotik RB1000

Has anyone used one or even bought one?

*Rory Conaway **• Triad Wireless •**CEO*

*4226 S. 37^th Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040*

*602-426-0542*

*r...@triadwireless.net *

*www.triadwireless.net *

**

“Baseball - we do not stop playing because we grow old, we grow old 
because we stop playing”

Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik RB1000

[Rory Conaway]

Yea, I figured that out after I posted.  Figured we might just have to take the 
board out of the 3011.  We really need something faster than the 850x2.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 7:33 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik RB1000

The one that's several years old at this point?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
The Brothers WISP
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]




From: "Rory Conaway" >
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:17:32 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] Mikrotik RB1000
Has anyone used one or even bought one?

Rory Conaway • Triad Wireless • CEO
4226 S. 37th Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040
602-426-0542
r...@triadwireless.net
www.triadwireless.net

“Baseball - we do not stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we 
stop playing”

Re: [AFMUG] New Install Van?

[Rory Conaway]

We just bought 2 vans, both E-150’s, one a 2014, one a 2012.  Got the 2014 back 
to the office and left it out in front of the office until late that night.  
Some thief stole the car battery.  Amazing.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Steve D
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:37 PM
To: af
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] New Install Van?

(Insert shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg here)

-Steve D

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Jason McKemie 
> 
wrote:
http://www.nvcargox.com/

Re: [AFMUG] New Install Van?

[Steve D]

(Insert shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg here)

-Steve D

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Jason McKemie <
j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:

> http://www.nvcargox.com/

Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs

[That One Guy /sarcasm]

i got an email from azotel today, hadnt heard from them in a long time
are they still actively developing the product

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:20 PM, Mitch Koep  wrote:

> Azotel
>
> Mitch Koep
>
> 218-851-8689 <(218)%20851-8689> cell
>
> On 01/31/2017 10:42 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>
> Powercode
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Jan 31, 2017 11:30 PM, "Sean Heskett"  wrote:
>
>> Intermapper for alerts
>> Cacti for history
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 9:27 PM Jason McKemie <
>> j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Revisiting this, what are others using for SNMP Monitoring?
>>>
>>> -Jason
>>>
>>
> --
> Mitch Koep
>
> A Better Wireless218-851-8689 <(218)%20851-8689> cell
>
>


-- 
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Groundhog Day

[That One Guy /sarcasm]

nope, no way to vet the tunnel occupants, border closed, winter is coming

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 10:45 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> Is it still on?
>
>
>
> I was kind of hoping for an Executive Order cancelling it.  We’re supposed
> to have some sun tomorrow, and I’m not looking forward to 6 more weeks of
> winter.  Stupid weather forecasting rodent.
>



-- 
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs

[George Skorup]

Screw DNS. ARP WHO HAS www.google.com. Lets ask the entire internet.

On 2/1/2017 10:49 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:

Netconf


-- Original Message --
From: "Josh Luthman" >

To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 2/1/2017 11:19:16 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs


Like SNMP and DNS

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Feb 1, 2017 7:21 PM, "Mike Hammett" > wrote:


SNMP is an old technology and has needed to be replaced for a
while. (Un)Fortunately, it's universal.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 


Midwest Internet Exchange 


The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Adam Moffett" >
*To: *af@afmug.com 
*Sent: *Wednesday, February 1, 2017 10:23:43 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs

Thanks Simon.  Yes my understanding is that Telrad is going to
eventually abandon the "Star ACS" system they inherited from
Alvaion and put at least some TR-69 functions into Breezeview. I
have heard as stated goals that Breezeview will collect
performance data from the CPE and perform bulk firmware updates. 
If that's all they ever put into Breezeview, that might be

enough.  Eventually I'll probably want to do something to every
CPE.  I don't know specifically what it will bemaybe I'll
want to add a firewall rule to everybody or lock out another
operator's PLMN ID.  When that day comes it's either a long,
tedious labor investment or have TR-69.

I don't understand the resistance to SNMP in the LTE world.  Not
Invented Here?



-- Original Message --
From: "Simon Westlake" >
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 2/1/2017 10:49:52 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs

I think this is just the way it goes. TR069 is,
unfortunately, not a simple plug and play solution. Any third
party system you get is going to require some configuration
and fiddling to get working.

I know a few people using
http://www.friendly-tech.com/products/tr-069-device-management

but I don't know how much it costs. Since some WISPs are
using it, I'm guessing it's less than the cost of a car, but
I could be wrong..

I think Telrad has something coming out too, but I'm not 100%
sure on that.

On 2/1/2017 9:45 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:

On a related topic, what about TR69 software?

I saw GenieACS and FreeACS, but they both required a big
time investment.

Commercial TR69 servers appear to all be big $.  I'm
wondering if there's something basic that costs less than
a used car :)
We paid $6k for a TR69 ACS and it's junk.  The front end
is a JBoss web page, and it's fussy about which JRE and
browser you use with it.  An unexpected reset broke
something in the backend database, and the vendor had to
get in and fix it.and apparently we're not allowed to
know what the fix is, so if it ever happens again the
system will just be down until they can look at it.

I would love suggestions for an ACS that is reliable and
not a 5 figure purchase.

-Adam


-- Original Message --
From: "Faisal Imtiaz" >
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 2/1/2017 8:57:26 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs

Take a look at  OMD Check_mk

(aka a GUI + Nagios + Graphing + + +  etc etc etc)

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 
 

Re: [AFMUG] OT.. Does not play nice with others

[That One Guy /sarcasm]

as long as youre going by unconfirmed reports from "people in the know"
there is another article for people gullible enough to eat this one up from
the hill about trump telling Nieto that Mexico has a bunch of bad hombres.
I figure youll eat that one up, its pretty reliable like this one.
My source, who wants to remain unidentified because hes not authorized,
told me that when trump called jesus, he pronounced it heysuse because he
thought he was a mexican and the reason hes left our schools is that obama
had deported him.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVL8S3lUHf0TRs7E1xzv187cZQlbPAYGk is
an archive of the leaked audio from trumps calls to obama over the months

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 10:04 PM, Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

>
>
> https://news.google.com/news/amp?caurl=http%3A%2F%
> 2Fthehill.com%2Fhomenews%2Fadministration%2F317480-
> trump-fields-tense-phone-call-with-australian-pm-report%3Famp#pt0-335990
>



-- 
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs

[Adam Moffett]

Netconf


-- Original Message --
From: "Josh Luthman" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/1/2017 11:19:16 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs


Like SNMP and DNS

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Feb 1, 2017 7:21 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
SNMP is an old technology and has needed to be replaced for a while. 
(Un)Fortunately, it's universal.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
 
 
 


Midwest Internet Exchange 
 
 


The Brothers WISP 





From: "Adam Moffett" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 10:23:43 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs

Thanks Simon.  Yes my understanding is that Telrad is going to 
eventually abandon the "Star ACS" system they inherited from Alvaion 
and put at least some TR-69 functions into Breezeview.  I have heard 
as stated goals that Breezeview will collect performance data from the 
CPE and perform bulk firmware updates.  If that's all they ever put 
into Breezeview, that might be enough.  Eventually I'll probably want 
to do something to every CPE.  I don't know specifically what it will 
bemaybe I'll want to add a firewall rule to everybody or lock out 
another operator's PLMN ID.  When that day comes it's either a long, 
tedious labor investment or have TR-69.


I don't understand the resistance to SNMP in the LTE world.  Not 
Invented Here?




-- Original Message --
From: "Simon Westlake" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/1/2017 10:49:52 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs

I think this is just the way it goes. TR069 is, unfortunately, not a 
simple plug and play solution. Any third party system you get is 
going to require some configuration and fiddling to get working.


I know a few people using 
http://www.friendly-tech.com/products/tr-069-device-management 
 but 
I don't know how much it costs. Since some WISPs are using it, I'm 
guessing it's less than the cost of a car, but I could be wrong..


I think Telrad has something coming out too, but I'm not 100% sure on 
that.


On 2/1/2017 9:45 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:

On a related topic, what about TR69 software?

I saw GenieACS and FreeACS, but they both required a big time 
investment.


Commercial TR69 servers appear to all be big $.  I'm wondering if 
there's something basic that costs less than a used car :)
We paid $6k for a TR69 ACS and it's junk.  The front end is a JBoss 
web page, and it's fussy about which JRE and browser you use with 
it.  An unexpected reset broke something in the backend database, 
and the vendor had to get in and fix it.and apparently we're not 
allowed to know what the fix is, so if it ever happens again the 
system will just be down until they can look at it.


I would love suggestions for an ACS that is reliable and not a 5 
figure purchase.


-Adam


-- Original Message --
From: "Faisal Imtiaz" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/1/2017 8:57:26 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs


Take a look at  OMD Check_mk

(aka a GUI + Nagios + Graphing + + +  etc etc etc)

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518  Option 2 or Email: 
supp...@snappytelecom.net



From: "Jason McKemie" >

To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:27:33 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs
Revisiting this, what are others using for SNMP Monitoring?
-Jason



-- Simon Westlake Email: simon@sonar.software Phone: (702) 447-1247 
 --- Sonar Software Inc 
The future of ISP billing and OSS https://sonar.software

[AFMUG] OT - Groundhog Day

[Ken Hohhof]

Is it still on?

 

I was kind of hoping for an Executive Order cancelling it.  We're supposed
to have some sun tomorrow, and I'm not looking forward to 6 more weeks of
winter.  Stupid weather forecasting rodent.

Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs

[Josh Luthman]

Like SNMP and DNS

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Feb 1, 2017 7:21 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> SNMP is an old technology and has needed to be replaced for a while.
> (Un)Fortunately, it's universal.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Adam Moffett" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Wednesday, February 1, 2017 10:23:43 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs
>
> Thanks Simon.  Yes my understanding is that Telrad is going to eventually
> abandon the "Star ACS" system they inherited from Alvaion and put at least
> some TR-69 functions into Breezeview.  I have heard as stated goals that
> Breezeview will collect performance data from the CPE and perform bulk
> firmware updates.  If that's all they ever put into Breezeview, that might
> be enough.  Eventually I'll probably want to do something to every CPE.  I
> don't know specifically what it will bemaybe I'll want to add a
> firewall rule to everybody or lock out another operator's PLMN ID.  When
> that day comes it's either a long, tedious labor investment or have TR-69.
>
> I don't understand the resistance to SNMP in the LTE world.  Not Invented
> Here?
>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Simon Westlake" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 2/1/2017 10:49:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs
>
> I think this is just the way it goes. TR069 is, unfortunately, not a
> simple plug and play solution. Any third party system you get is going to
> require some configuration and fiddling to get working.
>
> I know a few people using http://www.friendly-tech.com/
> products/tr-069-device-management but I don't know how much it costs.
> Since some WISPs are using it, I'm guessing it's less than the cost of a
> car, but I could be wrong..
>
> I think Telrad has something coming out too, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
>
> On 2/1/2017 9:45 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:
>
> On a related topic, what about TR69 software?
>
> I saw GenieACS and FreeACS, but they both required a big time investment.
>
> Commercial TR69 servers appear to all be big $.  I'm wondering if there's
> something basic that costs less than a used car :)
> We paid $6k for a TR69 ACS and it's junk.  The front end is a JBoss web
> page, and it's fussy about which JRE and browser you use with it.  An
> unexpected reset broke something in the backend database, and the vendor
> had to get in and fix it.and apparently we're not allowed to know what
> the fix is, so if it ever happens again the system will just be down until
> they can look at it.
>
> I would love suggestions for an ACS that is reliable and not a 5 figure
> purchase.
>
> -Adam
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Faisal Imtiaz" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 2/1/2017 8:57:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs
>
> Take a look at  OMD Check_mk
>
> (aka a GUI + Nagios + Graphing + + +  etc etc etc)
>
> Faisal Imtiaz
> Snappy Internet & Telecom
> 7266 SW 48 Street
> Miami, FL 33155
> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 <(305)%20663-5518>
>
> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <(305)%20663-5518> Option 2 or Email:
> supp...@snappytelecom.net
>
> --
>
> *From: *"Jason McKemie" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:27:33 PM
> *Subject: *[AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs
>
> Revisiting this, what are others using for SNMP Monitoring?
> -Jason
>
>
> --
> Simon Westlake
> Email: simon@sonar.software
> Phone: (702) 447-1247
> ---
> Sonar Software Inc
> The future of ISP billing and OSShttps://sonar.software
>
>
>

[AFMUG] OT.. Does not play nice with others

[Jaime Solorza]

https://news.google.com/news/amp?caurl=http%3A%2F%2Fthehill.com%2Fhomenews%2Fadministration%2F317480-trump-fields-tense-phone-call-with-australian-pm-report%3Famp#pt0-335990

Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik RB1000

[TJ Trout]

I have one what's your offer

On Feb 1, 2017 6:32 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> The one that's several years old at this point?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Rory Conaway" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:17:32 PM
> *Subject: *[AFMUG] Mikrotik RB1000
>
> Has anyone used one or even bought one?
>
>
>
> *Rory Conaway **• Triad Wireless •** CEO*
>
> *4226 S. 37th Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040*
>
> *602-426-0542 <(602)%20426-0542>*
>
> *r...@triadwireless.net *
>
> *www.triadwireless.net *
>
>
>
> “Baseball - we do not stop playing because we grow old, we grow old
> because we stop playing”
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] New Install Van?

[Jeremy]

Anybody bought a NV Cargo with the Quigley 4x4 factory-retained warranty?
These look pretty sweet!

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Jason McKemie <
j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:

> http://www.nvcargox.com/

Re: [AFMUG] The smallest Mikrotik with a 10GbE port

[can...@believewireless.net]

We just got two in last week from Baltic.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:37 PM, Rory Conaway  wrote:

> Baltic had some but they are on backorder again.
>
>
>
> Rory
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric Kuhnke
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2017 6:28 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] The smallest Mikrotik with a 10GbE port
>
>
>
> Ordered one of these shipped direct from Latvia, not in stock in the US
> yet:
>
>
>
> https://routerboard.com/CCR1009-7G-1C-1SplusPC
>
>
>
> Anyone else have one on hand?  I'm testing it for a few different
> purposes.
>

Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik RB1000

[Mike Hammett]

The one that's several years old at this point? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Rory Conaway"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:17:32 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] Mikrotik RB1000 



Has anyone used one or even bought one? 

Rory Conaway • Triad Wireless • CEO 
4226 S. 37 th Street • Phoenix • AZ 85040 
602-426-0542 
r...@triadwireless.net 
www.triadwireless.net 

“Baseball - we do not stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we 
stop playing” 

[AFMUG] Mikrotik RB1000

[Rory Conaway]

Has anyone used one or even bought one?

Rory Conaway * Triad Wireless * CEO
4226 S. 37th Street * Phoenix * AZ 85040
602-426-0542
r...@triadwireless.net
www.triadwireless.net

"Baseball - we do not stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we 
stop playing"

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Is this urban?

[Bill Prince]

I would call that suburban.

bp


On 2/1/2017 12:07 PM, Gino Villarini wrote:

Looks awesome for ptmp mmw



From: Af > on 
behalf of Chuck McCown >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com " >

Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 4:00 PM
To: "af@afmug.com " >

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Is this urban?

*//*

*/Gino Villarini/*

President
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968

40�21'37.03"N, 111�58'43.96"W
*From:* Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:58 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Is this urban?
I think this list serv strips off files that are too big
-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/1/2017 2:57:29 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] Fw: Is this urban?

This was that attachment.  Did it not come through?
*From:* Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:34 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Is this urban?

Re: [AFMUG] more iot lols

[David Milholen]

Because its easy and takes the human brain factor out of the equation :)

Just like why do manufactures of wireless printers think they need the 
printer to be an access point for direct print. WTF!




On 1/30/2017 9:21 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm wrote:

http://gizmodo.com/hackers-locked-every-room-in-this-hotel-until-a-bitcoin-1791769502

why do companies connect access systems to insecure networks, why?
We just installed another connection at a motel because they give 
guests unrestricted access to the internet (they account for 30-40% of 
our DMCA notices) and couldnt run their registration system, that all 
sits on a shared network behind the free air router we give out, no 
security risk there. right?


“We are planning at the next room refurbishment for old-fashioned door 
locks with real keys. Just like 111 years ago at the time of our 
great-grandfathers,”


--
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your 
team as part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.


--

Re: [AFMUG] The smallest Mikrotik with a 10GbE port

[Rory Conaway]

Baltic had some but they are on backorder again.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Eric Kuhnke
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 6:28 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] The smallest Mikrotik with a 10GbE port

Ordered one of these shipped direct from Latvia, not in stock in the US yet:

https://routerboard.com/CCR1009-7G-1C-1SplusPC

Anyone else have one on hand?  I'm testing it for a few different purposes.

Re: [AFMUG] The smallest Mikrotik with a 10GbE port

[Sterling Jacobson]

I’m interested in hearing how it goes.

Is it smaller than the CRS with two SFP+ ports?

How much was that CCR again?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Eric Kuhnke
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 6:28 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] The smallest Mikrotik with a 10GbE port

Ordered one of these shipped direct from Latvia, not in stock in the US yet:

https://routerboard.com/CCR1009-7G-1C-1SplusPC

Anyone else have one on hand?  I'm testing it for a few different purposes.

[AFMUG] The smallest Mikrotik with a 10GbE port

[Eric Kuhnke]

Ordered one of these shipped direct from Latvia, not in stock in the US yet:

https://routerboard.com/CCR1009-7G-1C-1SplusPC

Anyone else have one on hand?  I'm testing it for a few different purposes.

Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different Markets

[That One Guy /sarcasm]

we actually provide the most granularity in our reports of mot vast
majority of the "up to" bandits
the above referenced example has three speeds
the only drawback is we are also honest in our speeds, powercode does 1000
we do 1024 so we have to edit the csv to take out the tailing numbers
because fcc wont accept patial mbs

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:18 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm <
thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

> the 477 data contains the speed
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Christopher Gray <
> cg...@graytechsoftware.com> wrote:
>
>> An exported form is only as good as the data entered. I export from Sonar
>> with no problem, but I go through a decent amount of effort to define a
>> long list of services to match each speed available, and it is getting a
>> little out of hand.
>>
>> When selling capacity, not speed, how do you rate your speed for your
>> 477? The max it could be? The lowest you'd ever expect? How do you define a
>> speed in your billing system for the 477 if the speed is variable?
>>
>> I see now that my biggest problem seems to be having 2 variables with
>> each product (price and speed... my "standard" product has speeds ranging
>> from 1.5 to 10 and prices ranging from $50 to $73). I think I just need to
>> simplify the product offering by fixing one of the variables, and possibly
>> have a zip code entry to view the available products. Half of my network is
>> 50% more expensive to operate than the other half, so there are significant
>> price differences between some areas.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:36 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm <
>> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> EXPORT-FORM 477
>>> LITERALLY THAT SIMPLE
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Christopher Gray <
>>> cg...@graytechsoftware.com> wrote:
>>>
 How do you keep track of speeds for your 477?



 On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Mathew Howard 
 wrote:

> We just have the same set of plans (with names, rather than speeds)
> with the same prices everywhere, and the speeds set differently depending
> on the area - so if you're in an area where we can cover you with ePMP 
> 5ghz
> half a mile from our office, you'll get a vastly different speed than if
> you're out in the middle of nowhere where we can only cover you with 
> 900mhz
> FSK from a tower with a grand total of 5 customers on it, but for billing
> purposes the plan is the same. The only way to find out what the actual
> speed is going to be in any given area is to ask us.
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Adam Moffett 
> wrote:
>
>> The other way is to define different service options and say that not
>> all options are available in all areas.
>>
>> If there's an option that's more money for less speed nobody will
>> intentionally choose it, but you can tell them that's the option 
>> available
>> in their area.  This way happens to also work seamlessly with billing
>> systems since you have to differentiate the rate options in the system 
>> that
>> way anyhow.
>>
>> One problem you will not avoid no matter how you spell it out is that
>> some people will draw their own conclusions about why you're charging 
>> them
>> more than people in another area.  I.E.: They'll say you're a greedy, 
>> evil
>> person with selfish and petty reasons for discriminating against them.  I
>> don't have any faith in my fellow humans, so take that with a grain of 
>> salt.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Sterling Jacobson" 
>> To: "af@afmug.com" 
>> Sent: 2/1/2017 1:37:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in
>> Different Markets
>>
>> Ugh, that is difficult.
>>
>>
>>
>> If it were me, at the very least I would just make a pricing page
>> online and spell it all out for each ‘area’.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you want to be more discreet you could just advertise the lowest
>> priced rate/plan and say there are higher speed options to contact you.
>>
>>
>>
>> The fancy way would be for them to fill out a form and get an
>> immediate response via email or online as to their rate plans per the 
>> area.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Christopher
>> Gray
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:28 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in
>> Different Markets
>>
>>
>>
>> How do others handle providing service in different markets at
>> different rates?
>>
>>
>>
>> As I've expanded into different areas, I've found I need to charge
>> significantly different 

Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different Markets

[That One Guy /sarcasm]

the 477 data contains the speed

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Christopher Gray  wrote:

> An exported form is only as good as the data entered. I export from Sonar
> with no problem, but I go through a decent amount of effort to define a
> long list of services to match each speed available, and it is getting a
> little out of hand.
>
> When selling capacity, not speed, how do you rate your speed for your 477?
> The max it could be? The lowest you'd ever expect? How do you define a
> speed in your billing system for the 477 if the speed is variable?
>
> I see now that my biggest problem seems to be having 2 variables with each
> product (price and speed... my "standard" product has speeds ranging from
> 1.5 to 10 and prices ranging from $50 to $73). I think I just need to
> simplify the product offering by fixing one of the variables, and possibly
> have a zip code entry to view the available products. Half of my network is
> 50% more expensive to operate than the other half, so there are significant
> price differences between some areas.
>
>
> --
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:36 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm <
> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> EXPORT-FORM 477
>> LITERALLY THAT SIMPLE
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Christopher Gray <
>> cg...@graytechsoftware.com> wrote:
>>
>>> How do you keep track of speeds for your 477?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Mathew Howard 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 We just have the same set of plans (with names, rather than speeds)
 with the same prices everywhere, and the speeds set differently depending
 on the area - so if you're in an area where we can cover you with ePMP 5ghz
 half a mile from our office, you'll get a vastly different speed than if
 you're out in the middle of nowhere where we can only cover you with 900mhz
 FSK from a tower with a grand total of 5 customers on it, but for billing
 purposes the plan is the same. The only way to find out what the actual
 speed is going to be in any given area is to ask us.

 On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Adam Moffett 
 wrote:

> The other way is to define different service options and say that not
> all options are available in all areas.
>
> If there's an option that's more money for less speed nobody will
> intentionally choose it, but you can tell them that's the option available
> in their area.  This way happens to also work seamlessly with billing
> systems since you have to differentiate the rate options in the system 
> that
> way anyhow.
>
> One problem you will not avoid no matter how you spell it out is that
> some people will draw their own conclusions about why you're charging them
> more than people in another area.  I.E.: They'll say you're a greedy, evil
> person with selfish and petty reasons for discriminating against them.  I
> don't have any faith in my fellow humans, so take that with a grain of 
> salt.
>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Sterling Jacobson" 
> To: "af@afmug.com" 
> Sent: 2/1/2017 1:37:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in
> Different Markets
>
> Ugh, that is difficult.
>
>
>
> If it were me, at the very least I would just make a pricing page
> online and spell it all out for each ‘area’.
>
>
>
> If you want to be more discreet you could just advertise the lowest
> priced rate/plan and say there are higher speed options to contact you.
>
>
>
> The fancy way would be for them to fill out a form and get an
> immediate response via email or online as to their rate plans per the 
> area.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Christopher
> Gray
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:28 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in
> Different Markets
>
>
>
> How do others handle providing service in different markets at
> different rates?
>
>
>
> As I've expanded into different areas, I've found I need to charge
> significantly different rates and have to provide different speeds. I
> adjusted my website to say things like: "...up to" and "...starting at
> $...".  It feels a bit misleading. I want to be clear without publishing
> every single service option.
>
>
>
> I'd like some suggestions for more appropriately treating the
> different areas. Perhaps entering a zipcode or town to see price options?
>
>
>
> Thank you - Chris
>
>

>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team
>> as part of yourself you 

Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different Markets

[Christopher Gray]

An exported form is only as good as the data entered. I export from Sonar
with no problem, but I go through a decent amount of effort to define a
long list of services to match each speed available, and it is getting a
little out of hand.

When selling capacity, not speed, how do you rate your speed for your 477?
The max it could be? The lowest you'd ever expect? How do you define a
speed in your billing system for the 477 if the speed is variable?

I see now that my biggest problem seems to be having 2 variables with each
product (price and speed... my "standard" product has speeds ranging from
1.5 to 10 and prices ranging from $50 to $73). I think I just need to
simplify the product offering by fixing one of the variables, and possibly
have a zip code entry to view the available products. Half of my network is
50% more expensive to operate than the other half, so there are significant
price differences between some areas.


--

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:36 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm <
thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

> EXPORT-FORM 477
> LITERALLY THAT SIMPLE
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Christopher Gray <
> cg...@graytechsoftware.com> wrote:
>
>> How do you keep track of speeds for your 477?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Mathew Howard 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We just have the same set of plans (with names, rather than speeds) with
>>> the same prices everywhere, and the speeds set differently depending on the
>>> area - so if you're in an area where we can cover you with ePMP 5ghz half a
>>> mile from our office, you'll get a vastly different speed than if you're
>>> out in the middle of nowhere where we can only cover you with 900mhz FSK
>>> from a tower with a grand total of 5 customers on it, but for billing
>>> purposes the plan is the same. The only way to find out what the actual
>>> speed is going to be in any given area is to ask us.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Adam Moffett 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 The other way is to define different service options and say that not
 all options are available in all areas.

 If there's an option that's more money for less speed nobody will
 intentionally choose it, but you can tell them that's the option available
 in their area.  This way happens to also work seamlessly with billing
 systems since you have to differentiate the rate options in the system that
 way anyhow.

 One problem you will not avoid no matter how you spell it out is that
 some people will draw their own conclusions about why you're charging them
 more than people in another area.  I.E.: They'll say you're a greedy, evil
 person with selfish and petty reasons for discriminating against them.  I
 don't have any faith in my fellow humans, so take that with a grain of 
 salt.



 -- Original Message --
 From: "Sterling Jacobson" 
 To: "af@afmug.com" 
 Sent: 2/1/2017 1:37:38 PM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in
 Different Markets

 Ugh, that is difficult.



 If it were me, at the very least I would just make a pricing page
 online and spell it all out for each ‘area’.



 If you want to be more discreet you could just advertise the lowest
 priced rate/plan and say there are higher speed options to contact you.



 The fancy way would be for them to fill out a form and get an immediate
 response via email or online as to their rate plans per the area.







 *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Christopher
 Gray
 *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:28 AM
 *To:* af@afmug.com
 *Subject:* [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different
 Markets



 How do others handle providing service in different markets at
 different rates?



 As I've expanded into different areas, I've found I need to charge
 significantly different rates and have to provide different speeds. I
 adjusted my website to say things like: "...up to" and "...starting at
 $...".  It feels a bit misleading. I want to be clear without publishing
 every single service option.



 I'd like some suggestions for more appropriately treating the different
 areas. Perhaps entering a zipcode or town to see price options?



 Thank you - Chris


>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team
> as part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.
>

Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different Markets

[That One Guy /sarcasm]

EXPORT-FORM 477
LITERALLY THAT SIMPLE

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Christopher Gray  wrote:

> How do you keep track of speeds for your 477?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
>> We just have the same set of plans (with names, rather than speeds) with
>> the same prices everywhere, and the speeds set differently depending on the
>> area - so if you're in an area where we can cover you with ePMP 5ghz half a
>> mile from our office, you'll get a vastly different speed than if you're
>> out in the middle of nowhere where we can only cover you with 900mhz FSK
>> from a tower with a grand total of 5 customers on it, but for billing
>> purposes the plan is the same. The only way to find out what the actual
>> speed is going to be in any given area is to ask us.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Adam Moffett 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The other way is to define different service options and say that not
>>> all options are available in all areas.
>>>
>>> If there's an option that's more money for less speed nobody will
>>> intentionally choose it, but you can tell them that's the option available
>>> in their area.  This way happens to also work seamlessly with billing
>>> systems since you have to differentiate the rate options in the system that
>>> way anyhow.
>>>
>>> One problem you will not avoid no matter how you spell it out is that
>>> some people will draw their own conclusions about why you're charging them
>>> more than people in another area.  I.E.: They'll say you're a greedy, evil
>>> person with selfish and petty reasons for discriminating against them.  I
>>> don't have any faith in my fellow humans, so take that with a grain of salt.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Sterling Jacobson" 
>>> To: "af@afmug.com" 
>>> Sent: 2/1/2017 1:37:38 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different
>>> Markets
>>>
>>> Ugh, that is difficult.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If it were me, at the very least I would just make a pricing page online
>>> and spell it all out for each ‘area’.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you want to be more discreet you could just advertise the lowest
>>> priced rate/plan and say there are higher speed options to contact you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The fancy way would be for them to fill out a form and get an immediate
>>> response via email or online as to their rate plans per the area.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Christopher Gray
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:28 AM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different
>>> Markets
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How do others handle providing service in different markets at different
>>> rates?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As I've expanded into different areas, I've found I need to charge
>>> significantly different rates and have to provide different speeds. I
>>> adjusted my website to say things like: "...up to" and "...starting at
>>> $...".  It feels a bit misleading. I want to be clear without publishing
>>> every single service option.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd like some suggestions for more appropriately treating the different
>>> areas. Perhaps entering a zipcode or town to see price options?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you - Chris
>>>
>>>
>>
>


-- 
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different Markets

[Christopher Gray]

I meant, Mathew mentioned only a handful of plans for billing purposes, and
each individual plan could vary significantly in speed, how does one keep
track of the speeds, or is it just reported at the slowed speed?




On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 6:59 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

> WISPMon
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Christopher Gray" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Wednesday, February 1, 2017 5:33:24 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in
> DifferentMarkets
>
> How do you keep track of speeds for your 477?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
>> We just have the same set of plans (with names, rather than speeds) with
>> the same prices everywhere, and the speeds set differently depending on the
>> area - so if you're in an area where we can cover you with ePMP 5ghz half a
>> mile from our office, you'll get a vastly different speed than if you're
>> out in the middle of nowhere where we can only cover you with 900mhz FSK
>> from a tower with a grand total of 5 customers on it, but for billing
>> purposes the plan is the same. The only way to find out what the actual
>> speed is going to be in any given area is to ask us.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Adam Moffett 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The other way is to define different service options and say that not
>>> all options are available in all areas.
>>>
>>> If there's an option that's more money for less speed nobody will
>>> intentionally choose it, but you can tell them that's the option available
>>> in their area.  This way happens to also work seamlessly with billing
>>> systems since you have to differentiate the rate options in the system that
>>> way anyhow.
>>>
>>> One problem you will not avoid no matter how you spell it out is that
>>> some people will draw their own conclusions about why you're charging them
>>> more than people in another area.  I.E.: They'll say you're a greedy, evil
>>> person with selfish and petty reasons for discriminating against them.  I
>>> don't have any faith in my fellow humans, so take that with a grain of salt.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Sterling Jacobson" 
>>> To: "af@afmug.com" 
>>> Sent: 2/1/2017 1:37:38 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different
>>> Markets
>>>
>>> Ugh, that is difficult.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If it were me, at the very least I would just make a pricing page online
>>> and spell it all out for each ‘area’.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you want to be more discreet you could just advertise the lowest
>>> priced rate/plan and say there are higher speed options to contact you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The fancy way would be for them to fill out a form and get an immediate
>>> response via email or online as to their rate plans per the area.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Christopher Gray
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:28 AM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different
>>> Markets
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How do others handle providing service in different markets at different
>>> rates?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As I've expanded into different areas, I've found I need to charge
>>> significantly different rates and have to provide different speeds. I
>>> adjusted my website to say things like: "...up to" and "...starting at
>>> $...".  It feels a bit misleading. I want to be clear without publishing
>>> every single service option.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd like some suggestions for more appropriately treating the different
>>> areas. Perhaps entering a zipcode or town to see price options?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you - Chris
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs

[Mike Hammett]

SNMP is an old technology and has needed to be replaced for a while. 
(Un)Fortunately, it's universal. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Adam Moffett"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 10:23:43 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs 


Thanks Simon. Yes my understanding is that Telrad is going to eventually 
abandon the "Star ACS" system they inherited from Alvaion and put at least some 
TR-69 functions into Breezeview. I have heard as stated goals that Breezeview 
will collect performance data from the CPE and perform bulk firmware updates. 
If that's all they ever put into Breezeview, that might be enough. Eventually 
I'll probably want to do something to every CPE. I don't know specifically what 
it will bemaybe I'll want to add a firewall rule to everybody or lock out 
another operator's PLMN ID. When that day comes it's either a long, tedious 
labor investment or have TR-69. 


I don't understand the resistance to SNMP in the LTE world. Not Invented Here? 






-- Original Message -- 
From: "Simon Westlake" < simon@sonar.software > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 2/1/2017 10:49:52 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs 




I think this is just the way it goes. TR069 is, unfortunately, not a simple 
plug and play solution. Any third party system you get is going to require some 
configuration and fiddling to get working. 

I know a few people using 
http://www.friendly-tech.com/products/tr-069-device-management but I don't know 
how much it costs. Since some WISPs are using it, I'm guessing it's less than 
the cost of a car, but I could be wrong.. 

I think Telrad has something coming out too, but I'm not 100% sure on that. 


On 2/1/2017 9:45 AM, Adam Moffett wrote: 



On a related topic, what about TR69 software? 


I saw GenieACS and FreeACS, but they both required a big time investment. 


Commercial TR69 servers appear to all be big $$. I'm wondering if there's 
something basic that costs less than a used car :) 
We paid $6k for a TR69 ACS and it's junk. The front end is a JBoss web page, 
and it's fussy about which JRE and browser you use with it. An unexpected reset 
broke something in the backend database, and the vendor had to get in and fix 
it.and apparently we're not allowed to know what the fix is, so if it ever 
happens again the system will just be down until they can look at it. 


I would love suggestions for an ACS that is reliable and not a 5 figure 
purchase. 


-Adam 




-- Original Message -- 
From: "Faisal Imtiaz" < fai...@snappytelecom.net > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 2/1/2017 8:57:26 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs 






Take a look at OMD Check_mk 


(aka a GUI + Nagios + Graphing + + + etc etc etc) 


Faisal Imtiaz 
Snappy Internet & Telecom 
7266 SW 48 Street 
Miami, FL 33155 
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 

Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net 

- Original Message -



From: "Jason McKemie" < j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:27:33 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs 






Revisiting this, what are others using for SNMP Monitoring? 

-Jason 







-- 
Simon Westlake
Email: simon@sonar.software Phone: (702) 447-1247
---
Sonar Software Inc
The future of ISP billing and OSS https://sonar.software 

[AFMUG] New Install Van?

[Jason McKemie]

http://www.nvcargox.com/

Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different Markets

[Mike Hammett]

WISPMon 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Christopher Gray"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 5:33:24 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different 
Markets 


How do you keep track of speeds for your 477? 






On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Mathew Howard < mhoward...@gmail.com > wrote: 



We just have the same set of plans (with names, rather than speeds) with the 
same prices everywhere, and the speeds set differently depending on the area - 
so if you're in an area where we can cover you with ePMP 5ghz half a mile from 
our office, you'll get a vastly different speed than if you're out in the 
middle of nowhere where we can only cover you with 900mhz FSK from a tower with 
a grand total of 5 customers on it, but for billing purposes the plan is the 
same. The only way to find out what the actual speed is going to be in any 
given area is to ask us. 





On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 




The other way is to define different service options and say that not all 
options are available in all areas. 


If there's an option that's more money for less speed nobody will intentionally 
choose it, but you can tell them that's the option available in their area. 
This way happens to also work seamlessly with billing systems since you have to 
differentiate the rate options in the system that way anyhow. 


One problem you will not avoid no matter how you spell it out is that some 
people will draw their own conclusions about why you're charging them more than 
people in another area. I.E.: They'll say you're a greedy, evil person with 
selfish and petty reasons for discriminating against them. I don't have any 
faith in my fellow humans, so take that with a grain of salt. 






-- Original Message -- 
From: "Sterling Jacobson" < sterl...@avative.net > 
To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > 
Sent: 2/1/2017 1:37:38 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different 
Markets 






Ugh, that is difficult. 

If it were me, at the very least I would just make a pricing page online and 
spell it all out for each ‘area’. 

If you want to be more discreet you could just advertise the lowest priced 
rate/plan and say there are higher speed options to contact you. 

The fancy way would be for them to fill out a form and get an immediate 
response via email or online as to their rate plans per the area. 



From: Af [mailto: af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Christopher Gray 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:28 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different Markets 


How do others handle providing service in different markets at different rates? 



As I've expanded into different areas, I've found I need to charge 
significantly different rates and have to provide different speeds. I adjusted 
my website to say things like: "...up to" and "...starting at $...". It feels a 
bit misleading. I want to be clear without publishing every single service 
option. 



I'd like some suggestions for more appropriately treating the different areas. 
Perhaps entering a zipcode or town to see price options? 





Thank you - Chris 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

First fiber I was involved with was in 1990, so 27 years or so and still 
going strong.


-Original Message- 
From: fiber...@mail.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 4:35 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

On Wednesday, February 01, 2017 Ken Hohhof wrote:
How sure are you that 20 years from now, that investment will still look 
“future proof”?
 Looking down at the fiber I put down the better part of twenty years ago 
and still use, I say, yeah, it's still good for another twenty years and 
about as future proof as anything gets.


Or will it look like 8-track tapes and CB radio and non-flying cars and 
meat made from animals?
 Commercial products will give me 10 Tbps per fiber and the C band is 
theoretically good for at least 100 Tbps, so I think we've got scalability 
pretty well down and we aren't going to run out of bits any time soon.


 Assuming there was something better out there, we'd know about it by now. 
Commercial products don't just appear from the thin ether. They take years 
of R to commercialize. At the very least we should have scientific papers 
detailing revolutionary breakthroughs in science that will lead to something 
replacing fiber in twenty years.


I remember when we were supposed to wire every house for ISDN, because in 
the future, everyone would “need” two 64 kbps bearer channels and a 16 
kbps data

channel and “integrated services”.
 I think picking on ISDN is a bit myopic. ISDN turned into g.fast which 
will do a respectable gigabit over short distances.



Jared 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[fiberrun]

On Wednesday, February 01, 2017 Ken Hohhof wrote:
> How sure are you that 20 years from now, that investment will still look 
> “future proof”?  
  Looking down at the fiber I put down the better part of twenty years ago and 
still use, I say, yeah, it's still good for another twenty years and about as 
future proof as anything gets. 

> Or will it look like 8-track tapes and CB radio and non-flying cars and meat 
> made from animals?
  Commercial products will give me 10 Tbps per fiber and the C band is 
theoretically good for at least 100 Tbps, so I think we've got scalability 
pretty well down and we aren't going to run out of bits any time soon. 

  Assuming there was something better out there, we'd know about it by now. 
Commercial products don't just appear from the thin ether. They take years of 
R to commercialize. At the very least we should have scientific papers 
detailing revolutionary breakthroughs in science that will lead to something 
replacing fiber in twenty years. 
 
> I remember when we were supposed to wire every house for ISDN, because in the 
> future, everyone would “need” two 64 kbps bearer channels and a 16 kbps data 
> channel and “integrated services”.  
  I think picking on ISDN is a bit myopic. ISDN turned into g.fast which will 
do a respectable gigabit over short distances. 

 
Jared

Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different Markets

[Christopher Gray]

How do you keep track of speeds for your 477?



On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Mathew Howard  wrote:

> We just have the same set of plans (with names, rather than speeds) with
> the same prices everywhere, and the speeds set differently depending on the
> area - so if you're in an area where we can cover you with ePMP 5ghz half a
> mile from our office, you'll get a vastly different speed than if you're
> out in the middle of nowhere where we can only cover you with 900mhz FSK
> from a tower with a grand total of 5 customers on it, but for billing
> purposes the plan is the same. The only way to find out what the actual
> speed is going to be in any given area is to ask us.
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
>> The other way is to define different service options and say that not all
>> options are available in all areas.
>>
>> If there's an option that's more money for less speed nobody will
>> intentionally choose it, but you can tell them that's the option available
>> in their area.  This way happens to also work seamlessly with billing
>> systems since you have to differentiate the rate options in the system that
>> way anyhow.
>>
>> One problem you will not avoid no matter how you spell it out is that
>> some people will draw their own conclusions about why you're charging them
>> more than people in another area.  I.E.: They'll say you're a greedy, evil
>> person with selfish and petty reasons for discriminating against them.  I
>> don't have any faith in my fellow humans, so take that with a grain of salt.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Sterling Jacobson" 
>> To: "af@afmug.com" 
>> Sent: 2/1/2017 1:37:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different
>> Markets
>>
>> Ugh, that is difficult.
>>
>>
>>
>> If it were me, at the very least I would just make a pricing page online
>> and spell it all out for each ‘area’.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you want to be more discreet you could just advertise the lowest
>> priced rate/plan and say there are higher speed options to contact you.
>>
>>
>>
>> The fancy way would be for them to fill out a form and get an immediate
>> response via email or online as to their rate plans per the area.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Christopher Gray
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:28 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different
>> Markets
>>
>>
>>
>> How do others handle providing service in different markets at different
>> rates?
>>
>>
>>
>> As I've expanded into different areas, I've found I need to charge
>> significantly different rates and have to provide different speeds. I
>> adjusted my website to say things like: "...up to" and "...starting at
>> $...".  It feels a bit misleading. I want to be clear without publishing
>> every single service option.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'd like some suggestions for more appropriately treating the different
>> areas. Perhaps entering a zipcode or town to see price options?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you - Chris
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

I think you are right.  Perhaps they do now.

-Original Message- 
From: fiber...@mail.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 4:06 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

Did UTOPIA sell dark fiber? I thought they only did bitstream access.

Jared


Chuck McCown wrote:

UTOPIA didn't exactly set the world on fire down here.

-Original Message- 
From: Travis Johnson

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:58 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

The dark fiber loop in my city (Idaho Falls, Idaho) works extremely well
for the entire city. There are many providers, even private companies,
that lease a dark fiber pair and pay the city a monthly rate.

Travis


On 2/1/2017 3:40 PM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:
> Chuck McCown wrote:
>> Who owns the dark fiber network?
>> Government - we all know how good they are at doing things like this.
>Others manage. See for example Stokab owned by the city of Stockholm 
> in

> Sweden.
>
>> Private - so we create good old Ma Bell all over again?
>First, it does not have to be a single private company.
>
>Second, the owner being a private company need not be a problem.
> Non-discriminatory access to everybody, at set rates with prohibitions
> against cross-ownership and the offering of retail services. See 
> examples

> from other industries with wholesale infrastructure providers and
> structural separation in the telecom industry.
>
>Third, there's a pretty big difference between recreating Ma Bell and
> creating a (regional) dark fiber company that does nothing else than 
> rent

> dark fiber.
>
>> Existing carriers forced to open their networks?  OK if you like the
>> Venezuela solution to things.
>My proposal does not require existing carriers to open up their
> networks.
>
>> New networks built by low bidder defense contractor?  Great, 
>> replication

>> and tax bite too.
>Where did this come from? I said nothing about defense contractors or
> tax financing.
>
>
> Jared
>

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[fiberrun]

Did UTOPIA sell dark fiber? I thought they only did bitstream access. 

Jared

> Chuck McCown wrote:
>
> UTOPIA didn't exactly set the world on fire down here.
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: Travis Johnson
> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:58 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these
> 
> The dark fiber loop in my city (Idaho Falls, Idaho) works extremely well
> for the entire city. There are many providers, even private companies,
> that lease a dark fiber pair and pay the city a monthly rate.
> 
> Travis
> 
> 
> On 2/1/2017 3:40 PM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:
> > Chuck McCown wrote:
> >> Who owns the dark fiber network?
> >> Government - we all know how good they are at doing things like this.
> >Others manage. See for example Stokab owned by the city of Stockholm in 
> > Sweden.
> >
> >> Private - so we create good old Ma Bell all over again?
> >First, it does not have to be a single private company.
> >
> >Second, the owner being a private company need not be a problem. 
> > Non-discriminatory access to everybody, at set rates with prohibitions 
> > against cross-ownership and the offering of retail services. See examples 
> > from other industries with wholesale infrastructure providers and 
> > structural separation in the telecom industry.
> >
> >Third, there's a pretty big difference between recreating Ma Bell and 
> > creating a (regional) dark fiber company that does nothing else than rent 
> > dark fiber.
> >
> >> Existing carriers forced to open their networks?  OK if you like the 
> >> Venezuela solution to things.
> >My proposal does not require existing carriers to open up their 
> > networks.
> >
> >> New networks built by low bidder defense contractor?  Great, replication 
> >> and tax bite too.
> >Where did this come from? I said nothing about defense contractors or 
> > tax financing.
> >
> >
> > Jared
> >
> 
> 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

UTOPIA didn't exactly set the world on fire down here.

-Original Message- 
From: Travis Johnson

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:58 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

The dark fiber loop in my city (Idaho Falls, Idaho) works extremely well
for the entire city. There are many providers, even private companies,
that lease a dark fiber pair and pay the city a monthly rate.

Travis


On 2/1/2017 3:40 PM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:

Chuck McCown wrote:

Who owns the dark fiber network?
Government - we all know how good they are at doing things like this.
   Others manage. See for example Stokab owned by the city of Stockholm in 
Sweden.



Private - so we create good old Ma Bell all over again?

   First, it does not have to be a single private company.

   Second, the owner being a private company need not be a problem. 
Non-discriminatory access to everybody, at set rates with prohibitions 
against cross-ownership and the offering of retail services. See examples 
from other industries with wholesale infrastructure providers and 
structural separation in the telecom industry.


   Third, there's a pretty big difference between recreating Ma Bell and 
creating a (regional) dark fiber company that does nothing else than rent 
dark fiber.


Existing carriers forced to open their networks?  OK if you like the 
Venezuela solution to things.
   My proposal does not require existing carriers to open up their 
networks.


New networks built by low bidder defense contractor?  Great, replication 
and tax bite too.
   Where did this come from? I said nothing about defense contractors or 
tax financing.



Jared

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Travis Johnson]

The dark fiber loop in my city (Idaho Falls, Idaho) works extremely well 
for the entire city. There are many providers, even private companies, 
that lease a dark fiber pair and pay the city a monthly rate.


Travis


On 2/1/2017 3:40 PM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:

Chuck McCown wrote:

Who owns the dark fiber network?
Government - we all know how good they are at doing things like this.

   Others manage. See for example Stokab owned by the city of Stockholm in 
Sweden.


Private - so we create good old Ma Bell all over again?

   First, it does not have to be a single private company.

   Second, the owner being a private company need not be a problem. 
Non-discriminatory access to everybody, at set rates with prohibitions against 
cross-ownership and the offering of retail services. See examples from other 
industries with wholesale infrastructure providers and structural separation in 
the telecom industry.

   Third, there's a pretty big difference between recreating Ma Bell and 
creating a (regional) dark fiber company that does nothing else than rent dark 
fiber.


Existing carriers forced to open their networks?  OK if you like the Venezuela 
solution to things.

   My proposal does not require existing carriers to open up their networks.


New networks built by low bidder defense contractor?  Great, replication and 
tax bite too.

   Where did this come from? I said nothing about defense contractors or tax 
financing.


Jared

Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different Markets

[That One Guy /sarcasm]

thats wwhat we do, customers are put in tiers in powercode groups, the tier
is where the speed is defined, based solely on the performance indicators
the rates are divided out by capacity per month
the rates all have the same name with the exception of the tier identifier
each group can only see the rates for that group
the rates are like t01 100gb, t02 100gb, t03 100gb but a customer in tier 2
only has access to t02 100gb
sell capacity, not speed, life is alot better
the best part is if a customer deteriorates, per the tos, we can just move
them down a tier until the issue is addressed, preserving the performance
of the access point so its not fighting to give speeds it never could

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Mathew Howard  wrote:

> We just have the same set of plans (with names, rather than speeds) with
> the same prices everywhere, and the speeds set differently depending on the
> area - so if you're in an area where we can cover you with ePMP 5ghz half a
> mile from our office, you'll get a vastly different speed than if you're
> out in the middle of nowhere where we can only cover you with 900mhz FSK
> from a tower with a grand total of 5 customers on it, but for billing
> purposes the plan is the same. The only way to find out what the actual
> speed is going to be in any given area is to ask us.
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
>> The other way is to define different service options and say that not all
>> options are available in all areas.
>>
>> If there's an option that's more money for less speed nobody will
>> intentionally choose it, but you can tell them that's the option available
>> in their area.  This way happens to also work seamlessly with billing
>> systems since you have to differentiate the rate options in the system that
>> way anyhow.
>>
>> One problem you will not avoid no matter how you spell it out is that
>> some people will draw their own conclusions about why you're charging them
>> more than people in another area.  I.E.: They'll say you're a greedy, evil
>> person with selfish and petty reasons for discriminating against them.  I
>> don't have any faith in my fellow humans, so take that with a grain of salt.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Sterling Jacobson" 
>> To: "af@afmug.com" 
>> Sent: 2/1/2017 1:37:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different
>> Markets
>>
>> Ugh, that is difficult.
>>
>>
>>
>> If it were me, at the very least I would just make a pricing page online
>> and spell it all out for each ‘area’.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you want to be more discreet you could just advertise the lowest
>> priced rate/plan and say there are higher speed options to contact you.
>>
>>
>>
>> The fancy way would be for them to fill out a form and get an immediate
>> response via email or online as to their rate plans per the area.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Christopher Gray
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:28 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different
>> Markets
>>
>>
>>
>> How do others handle providing service in different markets at different
>> rates?
>>
>>
>>
>> As I've expanded into different areas, I've found I need to charge
>> significantly different rates and have to provide different speeds. I
>> adjusted my website to say things like: "...up to" and "...starting at
>> $...".  It feels a bit misleading. I want to be clear without publishing
>> every single service option.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'd like some suggestions for more appropriately treating the different
>> areas. Perhaps entering a zipcode or town to see price options?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you - Chris
>>
>>
>


-- 
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Mark Radabaugh]

I don’t know that it’s a false dilemma - I mentioned it with the caveat that 
it’s probably not politically possible even if it was advisable (and I don’t 
believe it is).

The obvious model is the electric distribution deregulation that has occurred 
in a lot of states where the distribution and generation components are 
separate entities.  

Mark



> On Feb 1, 2017, at 5:22 PM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:
> 
> Mark,
> 
> I believe you have presented a false dilemma. Those are not the only options. 
> 
> The best option would be to have an open access dark fiber network with cost 
> plus pricing, averaged over the whole network. 
> 
> With this model it doesn't matter much who does the building, who does the 
> financing or for that matter even who does the owning. 
> 
> This would also keep true competition alive and flourishing on the level that 
> matters, the offering of Internet and other services. 
> 
> It is inefficient to build competing infrastructures and temporary solutions. 
> 
> Now, I don't expect the rational thing to be done, but, hey, a man can dream. 
> 
> Jared
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, February 01, 2017 Mark Radabaugh wrote:
> 
> Adam,
>  
>  
> So 2 questions for you (or anyone)…
>  
> Do you think the government should fund private companies to build fiber 
> everywhere because 10Mb won’t be sufficient for the “need”, not the “want”.   
> Do we as a country spend a lot of public money to effectively create a 
> monopoly fiber carrier in every region?   Or is it better to make sure 
> everyone has access to 10Mb and allow the free market to compete for the 
> “want”?   To me the former creates a monopoly with government money with all 
> of it’s inefficiencies  and long term harm to the consumer.The latter 
> takes longer but has a better chance of staying competitive.
>  
> The ‘monopoly last mile provider’ model is probably not going to happen in 
> the US.  While it could I don’t see any current political chance of that 
> happening.
>  
> Given the major providers as well as the wanna-be’s like Google are giving up 
> on FTTH builds in favor of fiber -> 5G builds now, why should the FCC still 
> be pushing the FTTX only model?
>  
> Given 5G is little more than hype at this point I have my doubts that the 
> model will actually work, but that’s another story.
>  
> I’m asking these questions in the WISPA FCC chair capacity because I want to 
> understand what our policy should be, keeping in mind that government funding 
> schemes are rarely friendly to small companies and often result in 
> significant harm.
>  
> As Amplex - I’m building fiber to towers, FTTH on the routes to the towers 
> and in wooded areas I can’t otherwise serve, and creating micro pops along 
> the way on the fiber routes.   Personally I think that is the winning answer 
> for the future - but that’s just me.
>  
> Mark
>   
> 
> On Feb 1, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Adam Moffett 
>  wrote: 
> 
> I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 1meg.  
> 10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about how they're 
> using it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their entertainment.
>  
> Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity as long 
> as I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service makes me a 
> happy and contented consumer for the foreseeable future.
>  
> Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the standard 
> delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of today and the 
> need of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build anything else, then in 
> the long run you'll have people still clamoring for improvement and it will 
> end up being replaced.  
>  
> There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, and you 
> can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and permanent answer is 
> going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay relevant in the future you'll be 
> looking at how to get into that game whether it's with private funding or 
> government subsidy.
>  
> This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to succeed.but 
> facts is facts.
>  
> -Adam
>  
>  
>  
>  
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
> To: af@afmug.com[mailto:af@afmug.com]
> Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these
>  
> 
> Chuck,
>  
> Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the current 
> standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily done with 
> wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still think there is a 
> very valid argument that 10Mbps is more than sufficient for the services that 
> the government should be guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 
> is more about entertainment than anything else and I don’t see where this is 
> a taxpayer obligation.   I 

Re: [AFMUG] To Gel Or Not To Gel

[That One Guy /sarcasm]

the gel gel is fin horizontal, the paste, like in bbdge doesnt liquefy and
is appropriate for vertical

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

> Both seem to work.
>
> Mixed feelings on it from a work standpoint.   I hate the mess of the gel,
> but I also despise the ‘flyaway’ static charge on the dry fiber making all
> strands refuse to stay next to each other when trying to get them to lay
> down nicely in the splice tray. Hum… I wonder what would happen if I
> gave them a shot of “Static Guard”…
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2017, at 4:43 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> For aerial fiber, what are your feelings on waterproofing gel vs dry water
> swellable tape?
>
> I know for installation it would be nice to not have icky pick on all the
> hands and tools, but the mess is secondary to longevity.
>
> -Adam
>
>
>


-- 
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different Markets

[Mathew Howard]

We just have the same set of plans (with names, rather than speeds) with
the same prices everywhere, and the speeds set differently depending on the
area - so if you're in an area where we can cover you with ePMP 5ghz half a
mile from our office, you'll get a vastly different speed than if you're
out in the middle of nowhere where we can only cover you with 900mhz FSK
from a tower with a grand total of 5 customers on it, but for billing
purposes the plan is the same. The only way to find out what the actual
speed is going to be in any given area is to ask us.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

> The other way is to define different service options and say that not all
> options are available in all areas.
>
> If there's an option that's more money for less speed nobody will
> intentionally choose it, but you can tell them that's the option available
> in their area.  This way happens to also work seamlessly with billing
> systems since you have to differentiate the rate options in the system that
> way anyhow.
>
> One problem you will not avoid no matter how you spell it out is that some
> people will draw their own conclusions about why you're charging them more
> than people in another area.  I.E.: They'll say you're a greedy, evil
> person with selfish and petty reasons for discriminating against them.  I
> don't have any faith in my fellow humans, so take that with a grain of salt.
>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Sterling Jacobson" 
> To: "af@afmug.com" 
> Sent: 2/1/2017 1:37:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different
> Markets
>
> Ugh, that is difficult.
>
>
>
> If it were me, at the very least I would just make a pricing page online
> and spell it all out for each ‘area’.
>
>
>
> If you want to be more discreet you could just advertise the lowest priced
> rate/plan and say there are higher speed options to contact you.
>
>
>
> The fancy way would be for them to fill out a form and get an immediate
> response via email or online as to their rate plans per the area.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Christopher Gray
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:28 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different
> Markets
>
>
>
> How do others handle providing service in different markets at different
> rates?
>
>
>
> As I've expanded into different areas, I've found I need to charge
> significantly different rates and have to provide different speeds. I
> adjusted my website to say things like: "...up to" and "...starting at
> $...".  It feels a bit misleading. I want to be clear without publishing
> every single service option.
>
>
>
> I'd like some suggestions for more appropriately treating the different
> areas. Perhaps entering a zipcode or town to see price options?
>
>
>
> Thank you - Chris
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[fiberrun]

No, I wasn't referring to the cell companies. They don't do fixed broadband. 

Jared

From: "Chuck McCown wrote:

You mean like T Mobile, AT, Verizon & Sprint...

 

-Original Message-

From: fiber...@mail.com
 
It is inefficient to build competing infrastructures and temporary solutions.
 
Jared
 
 
 
 
 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

Like the $238 "tax" on my fiber lease that runs between state lines?  per month?

  - Original Message - 
  From: Chuck McCown 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 4:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


  And it depends on how much of the loop is allocated to interstate vs 
intrastate etc.
  Some states have intrastate pooling some don’t.  Revenue requirements are 
made out of sausage.  Lots of bits from here and there.  

  From: Chuck McCown 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:17 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

  NECA long distance pooling settlements.

  Lots of components to filling out the revenue requirement.  

  From: Mike Hammett 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:16 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

  and the rest of it?




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Chuck McCown" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 4:15:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


  Certainly that is a component of the debt service.  

  From: Mike Hammett 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:11 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

  How is the loan paid back? That customer's $50/month plan?




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Chuck McCown" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:47:14 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


  No, that is a loan.  Just like everyone else here that needs to borrow to 
build.  

  From: Mike Hammett 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:44 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

  You got money from someone that wasn't the customer? That's a subsidy.




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Chuck McCown" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:15:42 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


  Got zero subsidy.  Just earning the same rate of return all the other LECs 
earn.  
  It is a cost recovery mechanism, not a subsidy.  
  It replaced the super high long distance charges of times past.  

  From: Mike Hammett 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:12 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

  Any of them getting 1/10th of the subsidy you got.




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Chuck McCown" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:11:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


  What wisp?  Show me the wisp that would do this.

  From: Mike Hammett 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:08 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

  If you plowed 20 miles of fiber for one house, you can bet your ass a WISP 
would do the same.




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Chuck McCown" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:38:35 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


  Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house 
every 5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas 
like that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

  From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

  If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

  On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:

You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so 
I wouldn't hold my breath.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:

  i think that bank account may be closed very soon

  On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and the 
only approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[fiberrun]

Chuck McCown wrote:
> Who owns the dark fiber network?
> Government - we all know how good they are at doing things like this.
  Others manage. See for example Stokab owned by the city of Stockholm in 
Sweden. 

> Private - so we create good old Ma Bell all over again?
  First, it does not have to be a single private company. 

  Second, the owner being a private company need not be a problem. 
Non-discriminatory access to everybody, at set rates with prohibitions against 
cross-ownership and the offering of retail services. See examples from other 
industries with wholesale infrastructure providers and structural separation in 
the telecom industry. 

  Third, there's a pretty big difference between recreating Ma Bell and 
creating a (regional) dark fiber company that does nothing else than rent dark 
fiber. 

> Existing carriers forced to open their networks?  OK if you like the 
> Venezuela solution to things. 
  My proposal does not require existing carriers to open up their networks. 

> New networks built by low bidder defense contractor?  Great, replication and 
> tax bite too. 
  Where did this come from? I said nothing about defense contractors or tax 
financing. 


Jared

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

Prior to 1996 it was 100% paid by local customer revenue and NECA long distance 
pooling.

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:19 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

And it depends on how much of the loop is allocated to interstate vs intrastate 
etc.
Some states have intrastate pooling some don’t.  Revenue requirements are made 
out of sausage.  Lots of bits from here and there.  

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:17 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

NECA long distance pooling settlements.

Lots of components to filling out the revenue requirement.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:16 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

and the rest of it?




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 4:15:25 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Certainly that is a component of the debt service.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

How is the loan paid back? That customer's $50/month plan?




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:47:14 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


No, that is a loan.  Just like everyone else here that needs to borrow to 
build.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:44 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

You got money from someone that wasn't the customer? That's a subsidy.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:15:42 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Got zero subsidy.  Just earning the same rate of return all the other LECs 
earn.  
It is a cost recovery mechanism, not a subsidy.  
It replaced the super high long distance charges of times past.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:12 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

Any of them getting 1/10th of the subsidy you got.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


What wisp?  Show me the wisp that would do this.

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:08 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If you plowed 20 miles of fiber for one house, you can bet your ass a WISP 
would do the same.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:38:35 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:

  You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath.

  On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:

i think that bank account may be closed very soon

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

  Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and the 
only approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange 
trash bags.   Except when those are out of stock. 

  Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need 
more support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

They didn’t get any pork, nor did Comcast.  

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:28 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

You mean like T Mobile, AT, Verizon & Sprint...
-Original Message- 
From: fiber...@mail.com 

It is inefficient to build competing infrastructures and temporary solutions. 

Jared

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

You mean like T Mobile, AT, Verizon & Sprint...
-Original Message- 
From: fiber...@mail.com 

It is inefficient to build competing infrastructures and temporary solutions. 

Jared

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

Who owns the dark fiber network?
  Government - we all know how good they are at doing things like this.
  Private - so we create good old Ma Bell all over again?
  Existing carriers forced to open their networks?  OK if you like the 
Venezuela solution to things.  
  New networks built by low bidder defense contractor?  Great, replication and 
tax bite too.  

?


-Original Message- 
From: fiber...@mail.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:22 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 

Mark,

I believe you have presented a false dilemma. Those are not the only options. 

The best option would be to have an open access dark fiber network with cost 
plus pricing, averaged over the whole network. 

With this model it doesn't matter much who does the building, who does the 
financing or for that matter even who does the owning. 

This would also keep true competition alive and flourishing on the level that 
matters, the offering of Internet and other services. 

It is inefficient to build competing infrastructures and temporary solutions. 

Now, I don't expect the rational thing to be done, but, hey, a man can dream. 

Jared




On Wednesday, February 01, 2017 Mark Radabaugh wrote:

Adam,


So 2 questions for you (or anyone)…

Do you think the government should fund private companies to build fiber 
everywhere because 10Mb won’t be sufficient for the “need”, not the “want”.   
Do we as a country spend a lot of public money to effectively create a monopoly 
fiber carrier in every region?   Or is it better to make sure everyone has 
access to 10Mb and allow the free market to compete for the “want”?   To me the 
former creates a monopoly with government money with all of it’s inefficiencies 
 and long term harm to the consumer.The latter takes longer but has a 
better chance of staying competitive.

The ‘monopoly last mile provider’ model is probably not going to happen in the 
US.  While it could I don’t see any current political chance of that happening.

Given the major providers as well as the wanna-be’s like Google are giving up 
on FTTH builds in favor of fiber -> 5G builds now, why should the FCC still be 
pushing the FTTX only model?

Given 5G is little more than hype at this point I have my doubts that the model 
will actually work, but that’s another story.

I’m asking these questions in the WISPA FCC chair capacity because I want to 
understand what our policy should be, keeping in mind that government funding 
schemes are rarely friendly to small companies and often result in significant 
harm.

As Amplex - I’m building fiber to towers, FTTH on the routes to the towers and 
in wooded areas I can’t otherwise serve, and creating micro pops along the way 
on the fiber routes.   Personally I think that is the winning answer for the 
future - but that’s just me.

Mark
 

On Feb 1, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Adam Moffett 
 wrote: 

I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 1meg.  
10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about how they're using 
it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their entertainment.

Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity as long as 
I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service makes me a happy and 
contented consumer for the foreseeable future.

Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the standard 
delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of today and the need 
of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build anything else, then in the 
long run you'll have people still clamoring for improvement and it will end up 
being replaced.  

There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, and you 
can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and permanent answer is 
going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay relevant in the future you'll be 
looking at how to get into that game whether it's with private funding or 
government subsidy.

This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to succeed.but 
facts is facts.

-Adam




-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
To: af@afmug.com[mailto:af@afmug.com]
Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Chuck,

Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the current 
standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily done with 
wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still think there is a very 
valid argument that 10Mbps is more than sufficient for the services that the 
government should be guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 is 
more about entertainment than anything else and I don’t see where this is a 
taxpayer obligation.   I want Broadway shows in my little town too - but I 
don’t expect the government to fund them.

The major carriers 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Ken Hohhof]

They are however one of those self-funding govt bodies.  So if you request them 
to rent equipment, buy airline tickets, and book hotel rooms totaling $XYZ, 
then someone is getting fined $XYZ to pay for it.  Maybe your competitor, maybe 
you.  Probably not Mexico.

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 3:39 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

So it's not that I have anything offensive to say about the FCC, just an 
unpopular opinion.  As federal agencies go, the FCC is relatively unoffensive 
and low budget, so if I were the supreme libertarian dictator of the universe 
(see the irony?) they would not be the first agency I would pick on. 

 

 

-- Original Message --

From: "Mark Radabaugh"  >

To: af@afmug.com  

Sent: 2/1/2017 4:04:01 PM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

I’m fine with the opinions on the FCC - having dealt with them for 10 years 
there isn’t anything that I have not called them already.

 

Mark

 

 

On Feb 1, 2017, at 4:00 PM, Adam Moffett  > wrote:

 

I was only trying to comment on the technology and/or business investment, not 
the politics.

 

I'm a center leaning libertarian, I don't think the feds have any business 
funding much of anything.  That also means I have opinions about the FCC that 
you don't want to hear. 

 

 

 

-- Original Message --

From: "Mark Radabaugh"  >

To: af@afmug.com  

Sent: 2/1/2017 3:31:55 PM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

Adam,

 

 

So 2 questions for you (or anyone)…

 

Do you think the government should fund private companies to build fiber 
everywhere because 10Mb won’t be sufficient for the “need”, not the “want”.   
Do we as a country spend a lot of public money to effectively create a monopoly 
fiber carrier in every region?   Or is it better to make sure everyone has 
access to 10Mb and allow the free market to compete for the “want”?   To me the 
former creates a monopoly with government money with all of it’s inefficiencies 
 and long term harm to the consumer.The latter takes longer but has a 
better chance of staying competitive.

 

The ‘monopoly last mile provider’ model is probably not going to happen in the 
US.  While it could I don’t see any current political chance of that happening.

 

Given the major providers as well as the wanna-be’s like Google are giving up 
on FTTH builds in favor of fiber -> 5G builds now, why should the FCC still be 
pushing the FTTX only model?

 

Given 5G is little more than hype at this point I have my doubts that the model 
will actually work, but that’s another story.

 

I’m asking these questions in the WISPA FCC chair capacity because I want to 
understand what our policy should be, keeping in mind that government funding 
schemes are rarely friendly to small companies and often result in significant 
harm.

 

As Amplex - I’m building fiber to towers, FTTH on the routes to the towers and 
in wooded areas I can’t otherwise serve, and creating micro pops along the way 
on the fiber routes.   Personally I think that is the winning answer for the 
future - but that’s just me.

 

Mark

 

 

On Feb 1, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Adam Moffett  > wrote:

 

I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 1meg.  
10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about how they're using 
it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their entertainment.

 

Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity as long as 
I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service makes me a happy and 
contented consumer for the foreseeable future.

 

Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the standard 
delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of today and the need 
of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build anything else, then in the 
long run you'll have people still clamoring for improvement and it will end up 
being replaced.  

 

There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, and you 
can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and permanent answer is 
going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay relevant in the future you'll be 
looking at how to get into that game whether it's with private funding or 
government subsidy.

 

This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to succeed.but 
facts is facts.

 

-Adam

 

 

 

-- Original Message --

From: "Mark Radabaugh"  >

To: af@afmug.com  

Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

Chuck,

 

Explain why we would have to 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[fiberrun]

Mark,

I believe you have presented a false dilemma. Those are not the only options. 

The best option would be to have an open access dark fiber network with cost 
plus pricing, averaged over the whole network. 

With this model it doesn't matter much who does the building, who does the 
financing or for that matter even who does the owning. 

This would also keep true competition alive and flourishing on the level that 
matters, the offering of Internet and other services. 

It is inefficient to build competing infrastructures and temporary solutions. 

Now, I don't expect the rational thing to be done, but, hey, a man can dream. 

Jared




On Wednesday, February 01, 2017 Mark Radabaugh wrote:

Adam,
 
 
So 2 questions for you (or anyone)…
 
Do you think the government should fund private companies to build fiber 
everywhere because 10Mb won’t be sufficient for the “need”, not the “want”.   
Do we as a country spend a lot of public money to effectively create a monopoly 
fiber carrier in every region?   Or is it better to make sure everyone has 
access to 10Mb and allow the free market to compete for the “want”?   To me the 
former creates a monopoly with government money with all of it’s inefficiencies 
 and long term harm to the consumer.    The latter takes longer but has a 
better chance of staying competitive.
 
The ‘monopoly last mile provider’ model is probably not going to happen in the 
US.  While it could I don’t see any current political chance of that happening.
 
Given the major providers as well as the wanna-be’s like Google are giving up 
on FTTH builds in favor of fiber -> 5G builds now, why should the FCC still be 
pushing the FTTX only model?    
 
Given 5G is little more than hype at this point I have my doubts that the model 
will actually work, but that’s another story.
 
I’m asking these questions in the WISPA FCC chair capacity because I want to 
understand what our policy should be, keeping in mind that government funding 
schemes are rarely friendly to small companies and often result in significant 
harm.
 
As Amplex - I’m building fiber to towers, FTTH on the routes to the towers and 
in wooded areas I can’t otherwise serve, and creating micro pops along the way 
on the fiber routes.   Personally I think that is the winning answer for the 
future - but that’s just me.
 
Mark
  

On Feb 1, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Adam Moffett 
 wrote: 

I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 1meg.  
10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about how they're using 
it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their entertainment.
 
Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity as long as 
I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service makes me a happy and 
contented consumer for the foreseeable future.
 
Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the standard 
delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of today and the need 
of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build anything else, then in the 
long run you'll have people still clamoring for improvement and it will end up 
being replaced.  
 
There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, and you 
can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and permanent answer is 
going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay relevant in the future you'll be 
looking at how to get into that game whether it's with private funding or 
government subsidy.
 
This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to succeed.but 
facts is facts.
 
-Adam
 
 
 
 
-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
To: af@afmug.com[mailto:af@afmug.com]
Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these
 

Chuck,
 
Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the current 
standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily done with 
wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.    I still think there is a very 
valid argument that 10Mbps is more than sufficient for the services that the 
government should be guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 is 
more about entertainment than anything else and I don’t see where this is a 
taxpayer obligation.   I want Broadway shows in my little town too - but I 
don’t expect the government to fund them.
 
The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they can and are 
really looking to replace all last mile with wireless if they can make it work 
(and they think they can).  I don’t think it will be long until getting 
traditional landline service in the city is no longer an option - why would we 
still be forcing this in rural areas?
 
The other issue is the cash cow that funded USF for years (intrastate phone 
revenue) is rapidly diminishing and will finish it's spiral of death soon 
unless the contribution base is 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

And it depends on how much of the loop is allocated to interstate vs intrastate 
etc.
Some states have intrastate pooling some don’t.  Revenue requirements are made 
out of sausage.  Lots of bits from here and there.  

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:17 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

NECA long distance pooling settlements.

Lots of components to filling out the revenue requirement.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:16 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

and the rest of it?




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 4:15:25 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Certainly that is a component of the debt service.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

How is the loan paid back? That customer's $50/month plan?




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:47:14 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


No, that is a loan.  Just like everyone else here that needs to borrow to 
build.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:44 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

You got money from someone that wasn't the customer? That's a subsidy.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:15:42 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Got zero subsidy.  Just earning the same rate of return all the other LECs 
earn.  
It is a cost recovery mechanism, not a subsidy.  
It replaced the super high long distance charges of times past.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:12 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

Any of them getting 1/10th of the subsidy you got.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


What wisp?  Show me the wisp that would do this.

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:08 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If you plowed 20 miles of fiber for one house, you can bet your ass a WISP 
would do the same.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:38:35 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:

  You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath.

  On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:

i think that bank account may be closed very soon

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

  Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and the 
only approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange 
trash bags.   Except when those are out of stock. 

  Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need 
more support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if they do it this 
year or next.

  Mark Radabaugh
  WISPA FCC Committee Chair
  fcc_ch...@wispa.org
  419-261-5996

On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

They 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

NECA long distance pooling settlements.

Lots of components to filling out the revenue requirement.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:16 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

and the rest of it?




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 4:15:25 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Certainly that is a component of the debt service.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

How is the loan paid back? That customer's $50/month plan?




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:47:14 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


No, that is a loan.  Just like everyone else here that needs to borrow to 
build.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:44 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

You got money from someone that wasn't the customer? That's a subsidy.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:15:42 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Got zero subsidy.  Just earning the same rate of return all the other LECs 
earn.  
It is a cost recovery mechanism, not a subsidy.  
It replaced the super high long distance charges of times past.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:12 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

Any of them getting 1/10th of the subsidy you got.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


What wisp?  Show me the wisp that would do this.

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:08 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If you plowed 20 miles of fiber for one house, you can bet your ass a WISP 
would do the same.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:38:35 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:

  You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath.

  On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:

i think that bank account may be closed very soon

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

  Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and the 
only approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange 
trash bags.   Except when those are out of stock. 

  Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need 
more support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if they do it this 
year or next.

  Mark Radabaugh
  WISPA FCC Committee Chair
  fcc_ch...@wispa.org
  419-261-5996

On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: af@afmug.com
   

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Mike Hammett]

and the rest of it? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 4:15:25 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




Certainly that is a component of the debt service. 




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:11 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


How is the loan paid back? That customer's $50/month plan? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:47:14 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




No, that is a loan. Just like everyone else here that needs to borrow to build. 




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:44 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


You got money from someone that wasn't the customer? That's a subsidy. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:15:42 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




Got zero subsidy. Just earning the same rate of return all the other LECs earn. 
It is a cost recovery mechanism, not a subsidy. 
It replaced the super high long distance charges of times past. 




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:12 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


Any of them getting 1/10th of the subsidy you got. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:11:57 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




What wisp? Show me the wisp that would do this. 




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:08 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


If you plowed 20 miles of fiber for one house, you can bet your ass a WISP 
would do the same. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:38:35 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




Depends on what you call rural. I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles. You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that. I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house. 




From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money 


On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie < 
j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com > wrote: 


You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath. 

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm < 
thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > wrote: 



i think that bank account may be closed very soon 


On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh < m...@amplex.net > wrote: 





Lipstick on a pig. The copper in still rotting in the ground and the only 
approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange trash 
bags. Except when those are out of stock. 

Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need more 
support money to fix the plant. The only question is if they do it this year or 
next. 




Mark Radabaugh 
WISPA FCC Committee Chair 
fcc_ch...@wispa.org 
419-261-5996 






On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 



They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Darin Steffl" < darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:49:50 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


These should all be fiber fed. Any new DSLAM's with CAF funding are very likely 
fiber fed. They just can't support the bandwidth requirements with only bonded 
T1's anymore. 


On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 



One would suspect a calix e7-2 or e7-20 (2Tbps backplane, 100Gbps link to each 
line card). I don't think you can even feed those by anything short of at least 
a gig ethernet circuit. I never really tried on any of the 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

Certainly that is a component of the debt service.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

How is the loan paid back? That customer's $50/month plan?




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:47:14 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


No, that is a loan.  Just like everyone else here that needs to borrow to 
build.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:44 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

You got money from someone that wasn't the customer? That's a subsidy.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:15:42 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Got zero subsidy.  Just earning the same rate of return all the other LECs 
earn.  
It is a cost recovery mechanism, not a subsidy.  
It replaced the super high long distance charges of times past.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:12 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

Any of them getting 1/10th of the subsidy you got.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


What wisp?  Show me the wisp that would do this.

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:08 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If you plowed 20 miles of fiber for one house, you can bet your ass a WISP 
would do the same.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:38:35 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:

  You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath.

  On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:

i think that bank account may be closed very soon

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

  Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and the 
only approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange 
trash bags.   Except when those are out of stock. 

  Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need 
more support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if they do it this 
year or next.

  Mark Radabaugh
  WISPA FCC Committee Chair
  fcc_ch...@wispa.org
  419-261-5996

On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:49:50 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


These should all be fiber fed. Any new DSLAM's with CAF funding are 
very likely fiber fed. They just can't support the bandwidth requirements with 
only bonded T1's anymore. 

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Josh Reynolds  
wrote:

  One would suspect a calix e7-2 or e7-20 (2Tbps backplane, 100Gbps 
link to each line card). I don't think you can even feed those by anything 
short of at least a gig ethernet circuit. I never really 

Re: [AFMUG] To Gel Or Not To Gel

[Mark Radabaugh]

Both seem to work.   

Mixed feelings on it from a work standpoint.   I hate the mess of the gel, but 
I also despise the ‘flyaway’ static charge on the dry fiber making all strands 
refuse to stay next to each other when trying to get them to lay down nicely in 
the splice tray. Hum… I wonder what would happen if I gave them a shot of 
“Static Guard”…

Mark


> On Feb 1, 2017, at 4:43 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> 
> For aerial fiber, what are your feelings on waterproofing gel vs dry water 
> swellable tape?
> 
> I know for installation it would be nice to not have icky pick on all the 
> hands and tools, but the mess is secondary to longevity.
> 
> -Adam

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Mike Hammett]

How is the loan paid back? That customer's $50/month plan? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:47:14 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




No, that is a loan. Just like everyone else here that needs to borrow to build. 




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:44 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


You got money from someone that wasn't the customer? That's a subsidy. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:15:42 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




Got zero subsidy. Just earning the same rate of return all the other LECs earn. 
It is a cost recovery mechanism, not a subsidy. 
It replaced the super high long distance charges of times past. 




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:12 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


Any of them getting 1/10th of the subsidy you got. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:11:57 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




What wisp? Show me the wisp that would do this. 




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:08 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


If you plowed 20 miles of fiber for one house, you can bet your ass a WISP 
would do the same. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:38:35 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




Depends on what you call rural. I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles. You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that. I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house. 




From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money 


On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie < 
j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com > wrote: 


You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath. 

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm < 
thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > wrote: 



i think that bank account may be closed very soon 


On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh < m...@amplex.net > wrote: 





Lipstick on a pig. The copper in still rotting in the ground and the only 
approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange trash 
bags. Except when those are out of stock. 

Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need more 
support money to fix the plant. The only question is if they do it this year or 
next. 




Mark Radabaugh 
WISPA FCC Committee Chair 
fcc_ch...@wispa.org 
419-261-5996 






On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 



They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Darin Steffl" < darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:49:50 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


These should all be fiber fed. Any new DSLAM's with CAF funding are very likely 
fiber fed. They just can't support the bandwidth requirements with only bonded 
T1's anymore. 


On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 



One would suspect a calix e7-2 or e7-20 (2Tbps backplane, 100Gbps link to each 
line card). I don't think you can even feed those by anything short of at least 
a gig ethernet circuit. I never really tried on any of the E7-2s I've used in 
the past though :) 




On Jan 31, 2017 11:29 PM, "Forrest Christian (List Account)" < 
li...@packetflux.com > wrote: 




Out of curiosity, do you know how are they feeding these shelves? 

I know that in at least one case a couple of years ago, Qwest was feeding an 
entire neighborhood on I think 4 T1's. 



On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Darin Steffl < darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > 
wrote: 



Exactly. Calix VDSL2 Remote DSLAM. These are the result of CAF funding from 
Govt. to provide 

Re: [AFMUG] Fiber Optics Transmit Data and Power Over Same Cable

[Robert Andrews]

With a brand name like "LightSaber"

On 02/01/2017 10:21 AM, Seth Mattinen wrote:

On 2/1/17 10:19, Chuck McCown wrote:

Epilog Zing CNC laser cutters start at 30 watts I think.  So a 60 watt
laser on a fiber could certainly cut flesh and insulation and paper etc.



It'll make fiber cuts so much more adventurous.

[AFMUG] To Gel Or Not To Gel

[Adam Moffett]

For aerial fiber, what are your feelings on waterproofing gel vs dry 
water swellable tape?


I know for installation it would be nice to not have icky pick on all 
the hands and tools, but the mess is secondary to longevity.


-Adam

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Adam Moffett]

So it's not that I have anything offensive to say about the FCC, just an 
unpopular opinion.  As federal agencies go, the FCC is relatively 
unoffensive and low budget, so if I were the supreme libertarian 
dictator of the universe (see the irony?) they would not be the first 
agency I would pick on.



-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/1/2017 4:04:01 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

I’m fine with the opinions on the FCC - having dealt with them for 10 
years there isn’t anything that I have not called them already.


Mark



On Feb 1, 2017, at 4:00 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

I was only trying to comment on the technology and/or business 
investment, not the politics.


I'm a center leaning libertarian, I don't think the feds have any 
business funding much of anything.  That also means I have opinions 
about the FCC that you don't want to hear.




-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/1/2017 3:31:55 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Adam,


So 2 questions for you (or anyone)…

Do you think the government should fund private companies to build 
fiber everywhere because 10Mb won’t be sufficient for the “need”, not 
the “want”.   Do we as a country spend a lot of public money to 
effectively create a monopoly fiber carrier in every region?   Or is 
it better to make sure everyone has access to 10Mb and allow the free 
market to compete for the “want”?   To me the former creates a 
monopoly with government money with all of it’s inefficiencies  and 
long term harm to the consumer.The latter takes longer but has a 
better chance of staying competitive.


The ‘monopoly last mile provider’ model is probably not going to 
happen in the US.  While it could I don’t see any current political 
chance of that happening.


Given the major providers as well as the wanna-be’s like Google are 
giving up on FTTH builds in favor of fiber -> 5G builds now, why 
should the FCC still be pushing the FTTX only model?


Given 5G is little more than hype at this point I have my doubts that 
the model will actually work, but that’s another story.


I’m asking these questions in the WISPA FCC chair capacity because I 
want to understand what our policy should be, keeping in mind that 
government funding schemes are rarely friendly to small companies and 
often result in significant harm.


As Amplex - I’m building fiber to towers, FTTH on the routes to the 
towers and in wooded areas I can’t otherwise serve, and creating 
micro pops along the way on the fiber routes.   Personally I think 
that is the winning answer for the future - but that’s just me.


Mark


On Feb 1, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Adam Moffett  
wrote:


I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 
1meg.  10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about 
how they're using it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all 
their entertainment.


Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity 
as long as I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp 
service makes me a happy and contented consumer for the foreseeable 
future.


Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the 
standard delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need 
of today and the need of next year and the next 50 years.  If you 
build anything else, then in the long run you'll have people still 
clamoring for improvement and it will end up being replaced.


There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, 
and you can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and 
permanent answer is going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay 
relevant in the future you'll be looking at how to get into that 
game whether it's with private funding or government subsidy.


This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to 
succeed.but facts is facts.


-Adam



-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Chuck,

Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the 
current standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is 
easily done with wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I 
still think there is a very valid argument that 10Mbps is more than 
sufficient for the services that the government should be 
guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 is more about 
entertainment than anything else and I don’t see where this is a 
taxpayer obligation.   I want Broadway shows in my little town too 
- but I don’t expect the government to fund them.


The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they 
can and are really looking to replace all last mile with wireless 
if they can make it work (and they think they can).  I don’t 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Mark Radabaugh]

I’m fine with the opinions on the FCC - having dealt with them for 10 years 
there isn’t anything that I have not called them already.

Mark


> On Feb 1, 2017, at 4:00 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> 
> I was only trying to comment on the technology and/or business investment, 
> not the politics.
> 
> I'm a center leaning libertarian, I don't think the feds have any business 
> funding much of anything.  That also means I have opinions about the FCC that 
> you don't want to hear. 
> 
> 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mark Radabaugh" >
> To: af@afmug.com 
> Sent: 2/1/2017 3:31:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these
> 
>> Adam,
>> 
>> 
>> So 2 questions for you (or anyone)…
>> 
>> Do you think the government should fund private companies to build fiber 
>> everywhere because 10Mb won’t be sufficient for the “need”, not the “want”.  
>>  Do we as a country spend a lot of public money to effectively create a 
>> monopoly fiber carrier in every region?   Or is it better to make sure 
>> everyone has access to 10Mb and allow the free market to compete for the 
>> “want”?   To me the former creates a monopoly with government money with all 
>> of it’s inefficiencies  and long term harm to the consumer.The latter 
>> takes longer but has a better chance of staying competitive.
>> 
>> The ‘monopoly last mile provider’ model is probably not going to happen in 
>> the US.  While it could I don’t see any current political chance of that 
>> happening.
>> 
>> Given the major providers as well as the wanna-be’s like Google are giving 
>> up on FTTH builds in favor of fiber -> 5G builds now, why should the FCC 
>> still be pushing the FTTX only model?
>> 
>> Given 5G is little more than hype at this point I have my doubts that the 
>> model will actually work, but that’s another story.
>> 
>> I’m asking these questions in the WISPA FCC chair capacity because I want to 
>> understand what our policy should be, keeping in mind that government 
>> funding schemes are rarely friendly to small companies and often result in 
>> significant harm.
>> 
>> As Amplex - I’m building fiber to towers, FTTH on the routes to the towers 
>> and in wooded areas I can’t otherwise serve, and creating micro pops along 
>> the way on the fiber routes.   Personally I think that is the winning answer 
>> for the future - but that’s just me.
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 1, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Adam Moffett >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 1meg.  
>>> 10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about how they're 
>>> using it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their entertainment.
>>> 
>>> Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity as 
>>> long as I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service makes me 
>>> a happy and contented consumer for the foreseeable future.
>>> 
>>> Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the standard 
>>> delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of today and the 
>>> need of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build anything else, then 
>>> in the long run you'll have people still clamoring for improvement and it 
>>> will end up being replaced.  
>>> 
>>> There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, and 
>>> you can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and permanent 
>>> answer is going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay relevant in the future 
>>> you'll be looking at how to get into that game whether it's with private 
>>> funding or government subsidy.
>>> 
>>> This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to succeed.but 
>>> facts is facts.
>>> 
>>> -Adam
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Mark Radabaugh" >
>>> To: af@afmug.com 
>>> Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these
>>> 
 Chuck,
 
 Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the current 
 standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily done with 
 wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still think there is a 
 very valid argument that 10Mbps is more than sufficient for the services 
 that the government should be guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, 
 education).  25/3 is more about entertainment than anything else and I 
 don’t see where this is a taxpayer obligation.   I want Broadway shows in 
 my little town too - but I don’t expect the government to fund them.
 
 The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they can and 
 are really looking to replace all last mile with wireless if they can make 
 it work (and they think they can).  I don’t 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Adam Moffett]

I was only trying to comment on the technology and/or business 
investment, not the politics.


I'm a center leaning libertarian, I don't think the feds have any 
business funding much of anything.  That also means I have opinions 
about the FCC that you don't want to hear.




-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/1/2017 3:31:55 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Adam,


So 2 questions for you (or anyone)…

Do you think the government should fund private companies to build 
fiber everywhere because 10Mb won’t be sufficient for the “need”, not 
the “want”.   Do we as a country spend a lot of public money to 
effectively create a monopoly fiber carrier in every region?   Or is it 
better to make sure everyone has access to 10Mb and allow the free 
market to compete for the “want”?   To me the former creates a monopoly 
with government money with all of it’s inefficiencies  and long term 
harm to the consumer.The latter takes longer but has a better 
chance of staying competitive.


The ‘monopoly last mile provider’ model is probably not going to happen 
in the US.  While it could I don’t see any current political chance of 
that happening.


Given the major providers as well as the wanna-be’s like Google are 
giving up on FTTH builds in favor of fiber -> 5G builds now, why should 
the FCC still be pushing the FTTX only model?


Given 5G is little more than hype at this point I have my doubts that 
the model will actually work, but that’s another story.


I’m asking these questions in the WISPA FCC chair capacity because I 
want to understand what our policy should be, keeping in mind that 
government funding schemes are rarely friendly to small companies and 
often result in significant harm.


As Amplex - I’m building fiber to towers, FTTH on the routes to the 
towers and in wooded areas I can’t otherwise serve, and creating micro 
pops along the way on the fiber routes.   Personally I think that is 
the winning answer for the future - but that’s just me.


Mark



On Feb 1, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 
1meg.  10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about 
how they're using it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their 
entertainment.


Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity 
as long as I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service 
makes me a happy and contented consumer for the foreseeable future.


Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the 
standard delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of 
today and the need of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build 
anything else, then in the long run you'll have people still clamoring 
for improvement and it will end up being replaced.


There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, 
and you can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and 
permanent answer is going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay 
relevant in the future you'll be looking at how to get into that game 
whether it's with private funding or government subsidy.


This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to 
succeed.but facts is facts.


-Adam



-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Chuck,

Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the 
current standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily 
done with wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still 
think there is a very valid argument that 10Mbps is more than 
sufficient for the services that the government should be 
guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 is more about 
entertainment than anything else and I don’t see where this is a 
taxpayer obligation.   I want Broadway shows in my little town too - 
but I don’t expect the government to fund them.


The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they can 
and are really looking to replace all last mile with wireless if they 
can make it work (and they think they can).  I don’t think it will be 
long until getting traditional landline service in the city is no 
longer an option - why would we still be forcing this in rural areas?


The other issue is the cash cow that funded USF for years (intrastate 
phone revenue) is rapidly diminishing and will finish it's spiral of 
death soon unless the contribution base is expanded to broadband.


Mark

Mark Radabaugh
WISPA FCC Committee Chair
fcc_ch...@wispa.org
419-261-5996


On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:38 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 
house every 5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to 
build out in areas like that.  I 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Seth Mattinen]

On 2/1/17 12:44, Mike Hammett wrote:

You got money from someone that wasn't the customer? That's a subsidy.



RUS is a loan since it has to be paid back.

~Seth

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

No, that is a loan.  Just like everyone else here that needs to borrow to 
build.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:44 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

You got money from someone that wasn't the customer? That's a subsidy.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:15:42 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Got zero subsidy.  Just earning the same rate of return all the other LECs 
earn.  
It is a cost recovery mechanism, not a subsidy.  
It replaced the super high long distance charges of times past.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:12 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

Any of them getting 1/10th of the subsidy you got.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


What wisp?  Show me the wisp that would do this.

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:08 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If you plowed 20 miles of fiber for one house, you can bet your ass a WISP 
would do the same.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:38:35 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:

  You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath.

  On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:

i think that bank account may be closed very soon

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

  Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and the 
only approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange 
trash bags.   Except when those are out of stock. 

  Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need 
more support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if they do it this 
year or next.

  Mark Radabaugh
  WISPA FCC Committee Chair
  fcc_ch...@wispa.org
  419-261-5996

On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:49:50 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


These should all be fiber fed. Any new DSLAM's with CAF funding are 
very likely fiber fed. They just can't support the bandwidth requirements with 
only bonded T1's anymore. 

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Josh Reynolds  
wrote:

  One would suspect a calix e7-2 or e7-20 (2Tbps backplane, 100Gbps 
link to each line card). I don't think you can even feed those by anything 
short of at least a gig ethernet circuit. I never really tried on any of the 
E7-2s I've used in the past though :)

  On Jan 31, 2017 11:29 PM, "Forrest Christian (List Account)" 
 wrote:

Out of curiosity, do  you know how are they feeding these shelves?  
 


I know that in at least one case a couple of years ago, Qwest was 
feeding an entire neighborhood on I think 4 T1's.   


On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Darin Steffl 
 wrote:

  Exactly. Calix VDSL2 Remote DSLAM. These are the result of CAF 
funding from Govt. to provide minimum 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Mike Hammett]

You got money from someone that wasn't the customer? That's a subsidy. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:15:42 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




Got zero subsidy. Just earning the same rate of return all the other LECs earn. 
It is a cost recovery mechanism, not a subsidy. 
It replaced the super high long distance charges of times past. 




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:12 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


Any of them getting 1/10th of the subsidy you got. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:11:57 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




What wisp? Show me the wisp that would do this. 




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:08 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


If you plowed 20 miles of fiber for one house, you can bet your ass a WISP 
would do the same. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:38:35 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




Depends on what you call rural. I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles. You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that. I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house. 




From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money 


On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie < 
j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com > wrote: 


You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath. 

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm < 
thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > wrote: 



i think that bank account may be closed very soon 


On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh < m...@amplex.net > wrote: 





Lipstick on a pig. The copper in still rotting in the ground and the only 
approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange trash 
bags. Except when those are out of stock. 

Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need more 
support money to fix the plant. The only question is if they do it this year or 
next. 




Mark Radabaugh 
WISPA FCC Committee Chair 
fcc_ch...@wispa.org 
419-261-5996 






On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 



They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Darin Steffl" < darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:49:50 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


These should all be fiber fed. Any new DSLAM's with CAF funding are very likely 
fiber fed. They just can't support the bandwidth requirements with only bonded 
T1's anymore. 


On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 



One would suspect a calix e7-2 or e7-20 (2Tbps backplane, 100Gbps link to each 
line card). I don't think you can even feed those by anything short of at least 
a gig ethernet circuit. I never really tried on any of the E7-2s I've used in 
the past though :) 




On Jan 31, 2017 11:29 PM, "Forrest Christian (List Account)" < 
li...@packetflux.com > wrote: 




Out of curiosity, do you know how are they feeding these shelves? 

I know that in at least one case a couple of years ago, Qwest was feeding an 
entire neighborhood on I think 4 T1's. 



On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Darin Steffl < darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > 
wrote: 



Exactly. Calix VDSL2 Remote DSLAM. These are the result of CAF funding from 
Govt. to provide minimum 10/1 Mbps speeds to the census blocks they took 
funding for. 

If Centurylink had crappy or no DSL in these areas before, expect them to be 
able to offer somewhat functional to excellent DSL speeds to customers in range 
of these remote DSLAMs. For really close customers, they may see up to 40/1 
Mbps speeds. 




On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Carl Peterson < cpeter...@portnetworks.com > 
wrote: 



As someone already said, its clearly and E3. 
https://www.calix.com/systems/e-series/e3-e5-dsl.html 




On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 4:18 PM, George Skorup < 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

Sterling, I would not class you as a wanna be Google, I would classify you as a 
better than Google FTTH.  

But are you giving up on FTTH in favor of 5G builds?  

Didn’t think so, me neither

From: Mark Radabaugh 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:31 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

Adam,


So 2 questions for you (or anyone)…

Do you think the government should fund private companies to build fiber 
everywhere because 10Mb won’t be sufficient for the “need”, not the “want”.   
Do we as a country spend a lot of public money to effectively create a monopoly 
fiber carrier in every region?   Or is it better to make sure everyone has 
access to 10Mb and allow the free market to compete for the “want”?   To me the 
former creates a monopoly with government money with all of it’s inefficiencies 
 and long term harm to the consumer.The latter takes longer but has a 
better chance of staying competitive.

The ‘monopoly last mile provider’ model is probably not going to happen in the 
US.  While it could I don’t see any current political chance of that happening.

Given the major providers as well as the wanna-be’s like Google are giving up 
on FTTH builds in favor of fiber -> 5G builds now, why should the FCC still be 
pushing the FTTX only model?

Given 5G is little more than hype at this point I have my doubts that the model 
will actually work, but that’s another story.

I’m asking these questions in the WISPA FCC chair capacity because I want to 
understand what our policy should be, keeping in mind that government funding 
schemes are rarely friendly to small companies and often result in significant 
harm.

As Amplex - I’m building fiber to towers, FTTH on the routes to the towers and 
in wooded areas I can’t otherwise serve, and creating micro pops along the way 
on the fiber routes.   Personally I think that is the winning answer for the 
future - but that’s just me.

Mark


  On Feb 1, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

  I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 1meg.  
10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about how they're using 
it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their entertainment.

  Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity as long 
as I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service makes me a happy 
and contented consumer for the foreseeable future.

  Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the standard 
delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of today and the need 
of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build anything else, then in the 
long run you'll have people still clamoring for improvement and it will end up 
being replaced.  

  There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, and you 
can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and permanent answer is 
going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay relevant in the future you'll be 
looking at how to get into that game whether it's with private funding or 
government subsidy.

  This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to succeed.but 
facts is facts.

  -Adam



  -- Original Message --
  From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

Chuck,

Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the current 
standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily done with 
wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still think there is a very 
valid argument that 10Mbps is more than sufficient for the services that the 
government should be guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 is 
more about entertainment than anything else and I don’t see where this is a 
taxpayer obligation.   I want Broadway shows in my little town too - but I 
don’t expect the government to fund them.

The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they can and 
are really looking to replace all last mile with wireless if they can make it 
work (and they think they can).  I don’t think it will be long until getting 
traditional landline service in the city is no longer an option - why would we 
still be forcing this in rural areas?

The other issue is the cash cow that funded USF for years (intrastate phone 
revenue) is rapidly diminishing and will finish it's spiral of death soon 
unless the contribution base is expanded to broadband.  

Mark

Mark Radabaugh
WISPA FCC Committee Chair
fcc_ch...@wispa.org
419-261-5996

  On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:38 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house 
every 5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas 
like that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

  

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Mark Radabaugh]

Adam,


So 2 questions for you (or anyone)…

Do you think the government should fund private companies to build fiber 
everywhere because 10Mb won’t be sufficient for the “need”, not the “want”.   
Do we as a country spend a lot of public money to effectively create a monopoly 
fiber carrier in every region?   Or is it better to make sure everyone has 
access to 10Mb and allow the free market to compete for the “want”?   To me the 
former creates a monopoly with government money with all of it’s inefficiencies 
 and long term harm to the consumer.The latter takes longer but has a 
better chance of staying competitive.

The ‘monopoly last mile provider’ model is probably not going to happen in the 
US.  While it could I don’t see any current political chance of that happening.

Given the major providers as well as the wanna-be’s like Google are giving up 
on FTTH builds in favor of fiber -> 5G builds now, why should the FCC still be 
pushing the FTTX only model?

Given 5G is little more than hype at this point I have my doubts that the model 
will actually work, but that’s another story.

I’m asking these questions in the WISPA FCC chair capacity because I want to 
understand what our policy should be, keeping in mind that government funding 
schemes are rarely friendly to small companies and often result in significant 
harm.

As Amplex - I’m building fiber to towers, FTTH on the routes to the towers and 
in wooded areas I can’t otherwise serve, and creating micro pops along the way 
on the fiber routes.   Personally I think that is the winning answer for the 
future - but that’s just me.

Mark


> On Feb 1, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> 
> I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 1meg.  
> 10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about how they're 
> using it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their entertainment.
> 
> Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity as long 
> as I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service makes me a 
> happy and contented consumer for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the standard 
> delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of today and the 
> need of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build anything else, then in 
> the long run you'll have people still clamoring for improvement and it will 
> end up being replaced.  
> 
> There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, and you 
> can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and permanent answer is 
> going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay relevant in the future you'll be 
> looking at how to get into that game whether it's with private funding or 
> government subsidy.
> 
> This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to succeed.but 
> facts is facts.
> 
> -Adam
> 
> 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mark Radabaugh" >
> To: af@afmug.com 
> Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these
> 
>> Chuck,
>> 
>> Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the current 
>> standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily done with 
>> wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still think there is a 
>> very valid argument that 10Mbps is more than sufficient for the services 
>> that the government should be guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, education). 
>>  25/3 is more about entertainment than anything else and I don’t see where 
>> this is a taxpayer obligation.   I want Broadway shows in my little town too 
>> - but I don’t expect the government to fund them.
>> 
>> The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they can and 
>> are really looking to replace all last mile with wireless if they can make 
>> it work (and they think they can).  I don’t think it will be long until 
>> getting traditional landline service in the city is no longer an option - 
>> why would we still be forcing this in rural areas?
>> 
>> The other issue is the cash cow that funded USF for years (intrastate phone 
>> revenue) is rapidly diminishing and will finish it's spiral of death soon 
>> unless the contribution base is expanded to broadband.  
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> Mark Radabaugh
>> WISPA FCC Committee Chair
>> fcc_ch...@wispa.org 
>> 419-261-5996
>> 
>>> On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:38 PM, Chuck McCown >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house 
>>> every 5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in 
>>> areas like that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  
>>>  
>>> From: That One Guy /sarcasm <>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM
>>> To:  <>af@afmug.com 

[AFMUG] Outsourced NOC

[Brett A Mansfield]

Any of you use an outsourced NOC? If so, who do you use and what is your 
thoughts on them, good or bad?

Thank you,
Brett A Mansfield

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Adam Moffett]

That's a solid point.
I think ISDN could have gotten a lot more traction in the late 90's if 
it could have been priced lower, but it would be just as useless today.


It is hard to imagine a world where an ethernet strand can't provide 
enough capacity for a house, but we can't really know.



-- Original Message --
From: "Ken Hohhof" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/1/2017 3:07:26 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

Justify plowing 20 miles of fiber to serve one house any way you want, 
you’re rationalizing.




How sure are you that 20 years from now, that investment will still 
look “future proof”?  Or will it look like 8-track tapes and CB radio 
and non-flying cars and meat made from animals?




I remember when we were supposed to wire every house for ISDN, because 
in the future, everyone would “need” two 64 kbps bearer channels and a 
16 kbps data channel and “integrated services”.  The Germans installed 
a lot of ISDN BRI and mocked us for not following their example.  This 
was 20 years ago, and the futurists all had $1000 ISDN modems in their 
houses so they could spend half an hour downloading a photo from a 
bulletin board.






From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 1:55 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these



I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 
1meg.  10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about how 
they're using it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their 
entertainment.




Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity as 
long as I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service 
makes me a happy and contented consumer for the foreseeable future.




Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the 
standard delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of 
today and the need of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build 
anything else, then in the long run you'll have people still clamoring 
for improvement and it will end up being replaced.




There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, 
and you can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and 
permanent answer is going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay relevant 
in the future you'll be looking at how to get into that game whether 
it's with private funding or government subsidy.




This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to 
succeed.but facts is facts.




-Adam







-- Original Message --

From: "Mark Radabaugh" 

To: af@afmug.com

Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these




Chuck,



Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the 
current standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily 
done with wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still 
think there is a very valid argument that 10Mbps is more than 
sufficient for the services that the government should be guaranteeing 
(phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 is more about entertainment 
than anything else and I don’t see where this is a taxpayer 
obligation.   I want Broadway shows in my little town too - but I 
don’t expect the government to fund them.




The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they can 
and are really looking to replace all last mile with wireless if they 
can make it work (and they think they can).  I don’t think it will be 
long until getting traditional landline service in the city is no 
longer an option - why would we still be forcing this in rural areas?




The other issue is the cash cow that funded USF for years (intrastate 
phone revenue) is rapidly diminishing and will finish it's spiral of 
death soon unless the contribution base is expanded to broadband.




Mark



Mark Radabaugh

WISPA FCC Committee Chair

fcc_ch...@wispa.org

419-261-5996




On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:38 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:



Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 
house every 5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to 
build out in areas like that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one 
single house.




From: That One Guy /sarcasm

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM

To:af@afmug.com

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these



If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively 
service the rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money




On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:



You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big 
telco, so I wouldn't hold my breath.


On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:




i think that bank account may be closed very soon



On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  

Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs

[Gino Villarini]

Sure.. Ill send them over , email?

From: Af > on behalf of Sean 
Heskett >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>
Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:41 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs

hey gino,

could i snag your intermapper probes for the 450, SAF, and airfiber???

thanks!

-sean






Gino Villarini


President
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968

[cid:aeronet-logo_310cfc3e-6691-4f69-bd49-b37b834b9238.png]

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:51 AM, Gino Villarini 
> wrote:
we are using Intermapper, got lots of custom probes if anyone needs:

AF radios
Epmp
PMP450
Emerson Rectifiers
Trango
SAF


From: Af > on behalf of Lewis 
Bergman >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>
Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 8:00 AM
To: "af@afmug.com" >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP Monitoring Programs

Zabbix




Gino Villarini


President
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968

[cid:aeronet-logo_310cfc3e-6691-4f69-bd49-b37b834b9238.png]

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:20 PM Mitch Koep 
> wrote:

Azotel

Mitch Koep

218-851-8689 cell

On 01/31/2017 10:42 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
Powercode

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Jan 31, 2017 11:30 PM, "Sean Heskett" 
> wrote:
Intermapper for alerts
Cacti for history


On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 9:27 PM Jason McKemie 
> 
wrote:
Revisiting this, what are others using for SNMP Monitoring?

-Jason


--
Mitch Koep

A Better Wireless
218-851-8689 cell

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

Rather have Dr. Strangelove.  I can recite most of it.  

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:17 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

Are those 4K or 8K “things”?  You might “need” something north of 100 meg.  (At 
least I recently read that 3D TV is officially dead.)

 

On the other hand, once the memory starts to go, you just need one DVD of “Ice 
Station Zebra” and it never gets old.

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 1:57 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

I “need” at least 10 meg at home.  I want to stream 2-3 things at once.  

 

From: Adam Moffett 

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:55 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 1meg.  
10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about how they're using 
it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their entertainment.

 

Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity as long as 
I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service makes me a happy and 
contented consumer for the foreseeable future.

 

Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the standard 
delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of today and the need 
of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build anything else, then in the 
long run you'll have people still clamoring for improvement and it will end up 
being replaced.  

 

There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, and you 
can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and permanent answer is 
going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay relevant in the future you'll be 
looking at how to get into that game whether it's with private funding or 
government subsidy.

 

This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to succeed.but 
facts is facts.

 

-Adam

 

 

 

-- Original Message --

From: "Mark Radabaugh" 

To: af@afmug.com

Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

  Chuck,

   

  Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the current 
standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily done with 
wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still think there is a very 
valid argument that 10Mbps is more than sufficient for the services that the 
government should be guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 is 
more about entertainment than anything else and I don’t see where this is a 
taxpayer obligation.   I want Broadway shows in my little town too - but I 
don’t expect the government to fund them.

   

  The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they can and are 
really looking to replace all last mile with wireless if they can make it work 
(and they think they can).  I don’t think it will be long until getting 
traditional landline service in the city is no longer an option - why would we 
still be forcing this in rural areas?

   

  The other issue is the cash cow that funded USF for years (intrastate phone 
revenue) is rapidly diminishing and will finish it's spiral of death soon 
unless the contribution base is expanded to broadband.  

   

  Mark

   

  Mark Radabaugh

  WISPA FCC Committee Chair

  fcc_ch...@wispa.org

  419-261-5996

   

On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:38 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

 

Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house 
every 5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas 
like that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

 

From: That One Guy /sarcasm 

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service 
the rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

 

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:



  You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, 
so I wouldn't hold my breath.

  On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:



i think that bank account may be closed very soon

 

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

  Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and 
the only approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to 
orange trash bags.   Except when those are out of stock. 

   

  Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need 
more support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if they do it this 
year or next.

 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Ken Hohhof]

Are those 4K or 8K “things”?  You might “need” something north of 100 meg.  (At 
least I recently read that 3D TV is officially dead.)

 

On the other hand, once the memory starts to go, you just need one DVD of “Ice 
Station Zebra” and it never gets old.

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 1:57 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

I “need” at least 10 meg at home.  I want to stream 2-3 things at once.  

 

From: Adam Moffett 

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:55 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 1meg.  
10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about how they're using 
it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their entertainment.

 

Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity as long as 
I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service makes me a happy and 
contented consumer for the foreseeable future.

 

Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the standard 
delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of today and the need 
of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build anything else, then in the 
long run you'll have people still clamoring for improvement and it will end up 
being replaced.  

 

There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, and you 
can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and permanent answer is 
going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay relevant in the future you'll be 
looking at how to get into that game whether it's with private funding or 
government subsidy.

 

This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to succeed.but 
facts is facts.

 

-Adam

 

 

 

-- Original Message --

From: "Mark Radabaugh" 

To: af@afmug.com

Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

Chuck,

 

Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the current 
standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily done with 
wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still think there is a very 
valid argument that 10Mbps is more than sufficient for the services that the 
government should be guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 is 
more about entertainment than anything else and I don’t see where this is a 
taxpayer obligation.   I want Broadway shows in my little town too - but I 
don’t expect the government to fund them.

 

The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they can and are 
really looking to replace all last mile with wireless if they can make it work 
(and they think they can).  I don’t think it will be long until getting 
traditional landline service in the city is no longer an option - why would we 
still be forcing this in rural areas?

 

The other issue is the cash cow that funded USF for years (intrastate phone 
revenue) is rapidly diminishing and will finish it's spiral of death soon 
unless the contribution base is expanded to broadband.  

 

Mark

 

Mark Radabaugh

WISPA FCC Committee Chair

fcc_ch...@wispa.org

419-261-5996

 

On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:38 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

 

Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

 

From: That One Guy /sarcasm 

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

 

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:



You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:



i think that bank account may be closed very soon

 

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and the only 
approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange trash 
bags.   Except when those are out of stock. 

 

Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need more 
support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if they do it this year 
or next.

 

Mark Radabaugh

WISPA FCC Committee Chair

fcc_ch...@wispa.org

419-261-5996  

 

On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

 

They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit.



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

Got zero subsidy.  Just earning the same rate of return all the other LECs 
earn.  
It is a cost recovery mechanism, not a subsidy.  
It replaced the super high long distance charges of times past.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:12 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

Any of them getting 1/10th of the subsidy you got.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


What wisp?  Show me the wisp that would do this.

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:08 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If you plowed 20 miles of fiber for one house, you can bet your ass a WISP 
would do the same.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:38:35 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:

  You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath.

  On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:

i think that bank account may be closed very soon

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

  Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and the 
only approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange 
trash bags.   Except when those are out of stock. 

  Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need 
more support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if they do it this 
year or next.

  Mark Radabaugh
  WISPA FCC Committee Chair
  fcc_ch...@wispa.org
  419-261-5996

On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:49:50 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


These should all be fiber fed. Any new DSLAM's with CAF funding are 
very likely fiber fed. They just can't support the bandwidth requirements with 
only bonded T1's anymore. 

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Josh Reynolds  
wrote:

  One would suspect a calix e7-2 or e7-20 (2Tbps backplane, 100Gbps 
link to each line card). I don't think you can even feed those by anything 
short of at least a gig ethernet circuit. I never really tried on any of the 
E7-2s I've used in the past though :)

  On Jan 31, 2017 11:29 PM, "Forrest Christian (List Account)" 
 wrote:

Out of curiosity, do  you know how are they feeding these shelves?  
 


I know that in at least one case a couple of years ago, Qwest was 
feeding an entire neighborhood on I think 4 T1's.   


On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Darin Steffl 
 wrote:

  Exactly. Calix VDSL2 Remote DSLAM. These are the result of CAF 
funding from Govt. to provide minimum 10/1 Mbps speeds to the census blocks 
they took funding for. 

  If Centurylink had crappy or no DSL in these areas before, expect 
them to be able to offer somewhat functional to excellent DSL speeds to 
customers in range of these remote DSLAMs. For really close customers, they may 
see up to 40/1 Mbps speeds.

  On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Carl Peterson 
 wrote:

As someone already said, its clearly and E3.  
https://www.calix.com/systems/e-series/e3-e5-dsl.html

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 4:18 PM, George Skorup 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

41°58'47.85"N, 113°59'57.72"W

Two houses there now.  Central office is in Grouse Creek.

Pretty sure there is not a wisp in the known universe that would have served 
these guys.  
(With zero install fee).  



From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:08 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If you plowed 20 miles of fiber for one house, you can bet your ass a WISP 
would do the same.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:38:35 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:

  You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath.

  On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:

i think that bank account may be closed very soon

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

  Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and the 
only approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange 
trash bags.   Except when those are out of stock. 

  Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need 
more support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if they do it this 
year or next.

  Mark Radabaugh
  WISPA FCC Committee Chair
  fcc_ch...@wispa.org
  419-261-5996

On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:49:50 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


These should all be fiber fed. Any new DSLAM's with CAF funding are 
very likely fiber fed. They just can't support the bandwidth requirements with 
only bonded T1's anymore. 

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Josh Reynolds  
wrote:

  One would suspect a calix e7-2 or e7-20 (2Tbps backplane, 100Gbps 
link to each line card). I don't think you can even feed those by anything 
short of at least a gig ethernet circuit. I never really tried on any of the 
E7-2s I've used in the past though :)

  On Jan 31, 2017 11:29 PM, "Forrest Christian (List Account)" 
 wrote:

Out of curiosity, do  you know how are they feeding these shelves?  
 


I know that in at least one case a couple of years ago, Qwest was 
feeding an entire neighborhood on I think 4 T1's.   


On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Darin Steffl 
 wrote:

  Exactly. Calix VDSL2 Remote DSLAM. These are the result of CAF 
funding from Govt. to provide minimum 10/1 Mbps speeds to the census blocks 
they took funding for. 

  If Centurylink had crappy or no DSL in these areas before, expect 
them to be able to offer somewhat functional to excellent DSL speeds to 
customers in range of these remote DSLAMs. For really close customers, they may 
see up to 40/1 Mbps speeds.

  On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Carl Peterson 
 wrote:

As someone already said, its clearly and E3.  
https://www.calix.com/systems/e-series/e3-e5-dsl.html

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 4:18 PM, George Skorup 
 wrote:

  Regen would be my guess.

  On 1/31/2017 2:45 PM, Tim Reichhart wrote:

it got fiber ran into it for remote dslam to provide 
customers vdsl2 along that route.

Tim

-Original Message-

  From: "Carl Peterson" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Date: 01/31/17 03:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

  Calix.  

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Mike Hammett]

Any of them getting 1/10th of the subsidy you got. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:11:57 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




What wisp? Show me the wisp that would do this. 




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:08 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


If you plowed 20 miles of fiber for one house, you can bet your ass a WISP 
would do the same. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:38:35 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




Depends on what you call rural. I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles. You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that. I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house. 




From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money 


On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie < 
j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com > wrote: 


You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath. 

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm < 
thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > wrote: 



i think that bank account may be closed very soon 


On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh < m...@amplex.net > wrote: 





Lipstick on a pig. The copper in still rotting in the ground and the only 
approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange trash 
bags. Except when those are out of stock. 

Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need more 
support money to fix the plant. The only question is if they do it this year or 
next. 




Mark Radabaugh 
WISPA FCC Committee Chair 
fcc_ch...@wispa.org 
419-261-5996 






On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 



They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Darin Steffl" < darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:49:50 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


These should all be fiber fed. Any new DSLAM's with CAF funding are very likely 
fiber fed. They just can't support the bandwidth requirements with only bonded 
T1's anymore. 


On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 



One would suspect a calix e7-2 or e7-20 (2Tbps backplane, 100Gbps link to each 
line card). I don't think you can even feed those by anything short of at least 
a gig ethernet circuit. I never really tried on any of the E7-2s I've used in 
the past though :) 




On Jan 31, 2017 11:29 PM, "Forrest Christian (List Account)" < 
li...@packetflux.com > wrote: 




Out of curiosity, do you know how are they feeding these shelves? 

I know that in at least one case a couple of years ago, Qwest was feeding an 
entire neighborhood on I think 4 T1's. 



On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Darin Steffl < darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > 
wrote: 



Exactly. Calix VDSL2 Remote DSLAM. These are the result of CAF funding from 
Govt. to provide minimum 10/1 Mbps speeds to the census blocks they took 
funding for. 

If Centurylink had crappy or no DSL in these areas before, expect them to be 
able to offer somewhat functional to excellent DSL speeds to customers in range 
of these remote DSLAMs. For really close customers, they may see up to 40/1 
Mbps speeds. 




On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Carl Peterson < cpeter...@portnetworks.com > 
wrote: 



As someone already said, its clearly and E3. 
https://www.calix.com/systems/e-series/e3-e5-dsl.html 




On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 4:18 PM, George Skorup < george.sko...@cbcast.com > 
wrote: 


Regen would be my guess. 

On 1/31/2017 2:45 PM, Tim Reichhart wrote: 


it got fiber ran into it for remote dslam to provide customers vdsl2 along that 
route. 

Tim 

-Original Message- 


From: "Carl Peterson" < cpeter...@portnetworks.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Date: 01/31/17 03:28 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 

Calix. I'd guess G.Fast 

Sent from my iPhone 



On Jan 31, 2017, at 3:07 PM, Josh Corson < j...@bluebitnetworks.com > wrote: 



Does anyone know what these are? They are popping up on fairly rural 
areas of our coverage areas and on the state highways. 

Thanks 
 
 













-- 



Carl Peterson 

PORT NETWORKS 
401 E 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

What wisp?  Show me the wisp that would do this.

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:08 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If you plowed 20 miles of fiber for one house, you can bet your ass a WISP 
would do the same.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:38:35 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:

  You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath.

  On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:

i think that bank account may be closed very soon

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

  Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and the 
only approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange 
trash bags.   Except when those are out of stock. 

  Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need 
more support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if they do it this 
year or next.

  Mark Radabaugh
  WISPA FCC Committee Chair
  fcc_ch...@wispa.org
  419-261-5996

On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:49:50 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


These should all be fiber fed. Any new DSLAM's with CAF funding are 
very likely fiber fed. They just can't support the bandwidth requirements with 
only bonded T1's anymore. 

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Josh Reynolds  
wrote:

  One would suspect a calix e7-2 or e7-20 (2Tbps backplane, 100Gbps 
link to each line card). I don't think you can even feed those by anything 
short of at least a gig ethernet circuit. I never really tried on any of the 
E7-2s I've used in the past though :)

  On Jan 31, 2017 11:29 PM, "Forrest Christian (List Account)" 
 wrote:

Out of curiosity, do  you know how are they feeding these shelves?  
 


I know that in at least one case a couple of years ago, Qwest was 
feeding an entire neighborhood on I think 4 T1's.   


On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Darin Steffl 
 wrote:

  Exactly. Calix VDSL2 Remote DSLAM. These are the result of CAF 
funding from Govt. to provide minimum 10/1 Mbps speeds to the census blocks 
they took funding for. 

  If Centurylink had crappy or no DSL in these areas before, expect 
them to be able to offer somewhat functional to excellent DSL speeds to 
customers in range of these remote DSLAMs. For really close customers, they may 
see up to 40/1 Mbps speeds.

  On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Carl Peterson 
 wrote:

As someone already said, its clearly and E3.  
https://www.calix.com/systems/e-series/e3-e5-dsl.html

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 4:18 PM, George Skorup 
 wrote:

  Regen would be my guess.

  On 1/31/2017 2:45 PM, Tim Reichhart wrote:

it got fiber ran into it for remote dslam to provide 
customers vdsl2 along that route.

Tim

-Original Message-

  From: "Carl Peterson" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Date: 01/31/17 03:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

  Calix.  I'd guess G.Fast

  Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 31, 2017, at 3:07 PM, Josh Corson 
 wrote:

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

They wanted service.
They live in the USA.
The exchange was getting rebuilt using a RUS loan.

That is the justification.  
And it does make 11.25% ROI and will until it is fully depreciated.  

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 1:07 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

Justify plowing 20 miles of fiber to serve one house any way you want, you’re 
rationalizing.

 

How sure are you that 20 years from now, that investment will still look 
“future proof”?  Or will it look like 8-track tapes and CB radio and non-flying 
cars and meat made from animals?

 

I remember when we were supposed to wire every house for ISDN, because in the 
future, everyone would “need” two 64 kbps bearer channels and a 16 kbps data 
channel and “integrated services”.  The Germans installed a lot of ISDN BRI and 
mocked us for not following their example.  This was 20 years ago, and the 
futurists all had $1000 ISDN modems in their houses so they could spend half an 
hour downloading a photo from a bulletin board.

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 1:55 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 1meg.  
10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about how they're using 
it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their entertainment.

 

Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity as long as 
I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service makes me a happy and 
contented consumer for the foreseeable future.

 

Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the standard 
delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of today and the need 
of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build anything else, then in the 
long run you'll have people still clamoring for improvement and it will end up 
being replaced.  

 

There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, and you 
can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and permanent answer is 
going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay relevant in the future you'll be 
looking at how to get into that game whether it's with private funding or 
government subsidy.

 

This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to succeed.but 
facts is facts.

 

-Adam

 

 

 

-- Original Message --

From: "Mark Radabaugh" 

To: af@afmug.com

Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

  Chuck,

   

  Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the current 
standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily done with 
wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still think there is a very 
valid argument that 10Mbps is more than sufficient for the services that the 
government should be guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 is 
more about entertainment than anything else and I don’t see where this is a 
taxpayer obligation.   I want Broadway shows in my little town too - but I 
don’t expect the government to fund them.

   

  The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they can and are 
really looking to replace all last mile with wireless if they can make it work 
(and they think they can).  I don’t think it will be long until getting 
traditional landline service in the city is no longer an option - why would we 
still be forcing this in rural areas?

   

  The other issue is the cash cow that funded USF for years (intrastate phone 
revenue) is rapidly diminishing and will finish it's spiral of death soon 
unless the contribution base is expanded to broadband.  

   

  Mark

   

  Mark Radabaugh

  WISPA FCC Committee Chair

  fcc_ch...@wispa.org

  419-261-5996

   

On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:38 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

 

Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house 
every 5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas 
like that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

 

From: That One Guy /sarcasm 

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service 
the rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

 

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:



  You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, 
so I wouldn't hold my breath.

  On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:



i think that bank account may be closed very soon

 

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Mike Hammett]

If you plowed 20 miles of fiber for one house, you can bet your ass a WISP 
would do the same. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:38:35 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 




Depends on what you call rural. I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles. You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that. I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house. 




From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money 


On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie < 
j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com > wrote: 


You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath. 

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm < 
thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > wrote: 



i think that bank account may be closed very soon 


On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh < m...@amplex.net > wrote: 





Lipstick on a pig. The copper in still rotting in the ground and the only 
approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange trash 
bags. Except when those are out of stock. 

Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need more 
support money to fix the plant. The only question is if they do it this year or 
next. 




Mark Radabaugh 
WISPA FCC Committee Chair 
fcc_ch...@wispa.org 
419-261-5996 






On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 



They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Darin Steffl" < darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:49:50 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 


These should all be fiber fed. Any new DSLAM's with CAF funding are very likely 
fiber fed. They just can't support the bandwidth requirements with only bonded 
T1's anymore. 


On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 



One would suspect a calix e7-2 or e7-20 (2Tbps backplane, 100Gbps link to each 
line card). I don't think you can even feed those by anything short of at least 
a gig ethernet circuit. I never really tried on any of the E7-2s I've used in 
the past though :) 




On Jan 31, 2017 11:29 PM, "Forrest Christian (List Account)" < 
li...@packetflux.com > wrote: 




Out of curiosity, do you know how are they feeding these shelves? 

I know that in at least one case a couple of years ago, Qwest was feeding an 
entire neighborhood on I think 4 T1's. 



On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Darin Steffl < darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > 
wrote: 



Exactly. Calix VDSL2 Remote DSLAM. These are the result of CAF funding from 
Govt. to provide minimum 10/1 Mbps speeds to the census blocks they took 
funding for. 

If Centurylink had crappy or no DSL in these areas before, expect them to be 
able to offer somewhat functional to excellent DSL speeds to customers in range 
of these remote DSLAMs. For really close customers, they may see up to 40/1 
Mbps speeds. 




On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Carl Peterson < cpeter...@portnetworks.com > 
wrote: 



As someone already said, its clearly and E3. 
https://www.calix.com/systems/e-series/e3-e5-dsl.html 




On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 4:18 PM, George Skorup < george.sko...@cbcast.com > 
wrote: 


Regen would be my guess. 

On 1/31/2017 2:45 PM, Tim Reichhart wrote: 


it got fiber ran into it for remote dslam to provide customers vdsl2 along that 
route. 

Tim 

-Original Message- 


From: "Carl Peterson" < cpeter...@portnetworks.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Date: 01/31/17 03:28 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these 

Calix. I'd guess G.Fast 

Sent from my iPhone 



On Jan 31, 2017, at 3:07 PM, Josh Corson < j...@bluebitnetworks.com > wrote: 



Does anyone know what these are? They are popping up on fairly rural 
areas of our coverage areas and on the state highways. 

Thanks 
 
 













-- 



Carl Peterson 

PORT NETWORKS 
401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553 
Baltimore, MD 21202 
(410) 637-3707 




-- 


Darin Steffl 
Minnesota WiFi 
www.mnwifi.com 
507-634-WiFi 
Like us on Facebook 




-- 






Forrest Christian CEO , PacketFlux Technologies, Inc. 

Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com 










-- 


Darin Steffl 
Minnesota WiFi 
www.mnwifi.com 
507-634-WiFi 
Like us on Facebook 








-- 




If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as 
part 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Ken Hohhof]

Justify plowing 20 miles of fiber to serve one house any way you want, you’re 
rationalizing.

 

How sure are you that 20 years from now, that investment will still look 
“future proof”?  Or will it look like 8-track tapes and CB radio and non-flying 
cars and meat made from animals?

 

I remember when we were supposed to wire every house for ISDN, because in the 
future, everyone would “need” two 64 kbps bearer channels and a 16 kbps data 
channel and “integrated services”.  The Germans installed a lot of ISDN BRI and 
mocked us for not following their example.  This was 20 years ago, and the 
futurists all had $1000 ISDN modems in their houses so they could spend half an 
hour downloading a photo from a bulletin board.

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 1:55 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 1meg.  
10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about how they're using 
it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their entertainment.

 

Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity as long as 
I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service makes me a happy and 
contented consumer for the foreseeable future.

 

Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the standard 
delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of today and the need 
of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build anything else, then in the 
long run you'll have people still clamoring for improvement and it will end up 
being replaced.  

 

There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, and you 
can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and permanent answer is 
going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay relevant in the future you'll be 
looking at how to get into that game whether it's with private funding or 
government subsidy.

 

This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to succeed.but 
facts is facts.

 

-Adam

 

 

 

-- Original Message --

From: "Mark Radabaugh"  >

To: af@afmug.com  

Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

Chuck,

 

Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the current 
standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily done with 
wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still think there is a very 
valid argument that 10Mbps is more than sufficient for the services that the 
government should be guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 is 
more about entertainment than anything else and I don’t see where this is a 
taxpayer obligation.   I want Broadway shows in my little town too - but I 
don’t expect the government to fund them.

 

The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they can and are 
really looking to replace all last mile with wireless if they can make it work 
(and they think they can).  I don’t think it will be long until getting 
traditional landline service in the city is no longer an option - why would we 
still be forcing this in rural areas?

 

The other issue is the cash cow that funded USF for years (intrastate phone 
revenue) is rapidly diminishing and will finish it's spiral of death soon 
unless the contribution base is expanded to broadband.  

 

Mark

 

Mark Radabaugh

WISPA FCC Committee Chair

fcc_ch...@wispa.org  

419-261-5996

 

On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:38 PM, Chuck McCown  > wrote:

 

Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house every 
5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas like 
that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

 

From: That One Guy /sarcasm 

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

 

If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

 

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:



You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so I 
wouldn't hold my breath.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:



i think that bank account may be closed very soon

 

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and the only 
approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange trash 
bags.   Except when those are out of stock. 

 

Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need more 
support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if 

Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without changing anything.

[Jaime Solorza]

I believe Norway or Denmark use 45GHz PMP.Maybe Stefan or Daniel can
confirmElva? and Huber Suhner make the radios

On Feb 1, 2017 12:27 PM, "Gino Villarini"  wrote:

> Im talking urban.. Utah has 20 houses… :-)
>
> From: Af  on behalf of Chuck McCown  >
> Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
> Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 3:21 PM
> To: "af@afmug.com" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything
> without changing anything.
>
>
>
> *Gino Villarini*
> President
> Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968
>
> Around here the homes are surrounded by trees.
>
> *From:* Gino Villarini
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:19 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything
> without changing anything.
>
> You could go below the treeline… Im thinking a good spot on a street pole
> could light up a block of 20-40 houses
>
> From: Af  on behalf of Chuck McCown  >
> Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
> Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 3:02 PM
> To: "af@afmug.com" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything
> without changing anything.
>
>
>
> *Gino Villarini*
> President
> Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968
>
> I have seen some papers that say the PMP is going to via millimeter wave
> radios.  I am sure they will get along with trees very well.
>
> *From:* Sterling Jacobson
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 01, 2017 11:44 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything
> without changing anything.
>
>
> I like your article.
>
>
>
> What is the specific topology and deployment for this scenario though?
>
>
>
> Vivint and a few others have set up fiber access nodes on Schools and
> buildings local to the neighborhoods, then did their form of mesh from
> there.
>
>
>
> Is that the expected use case?
>
>
>
> That fiber is brought in near the neighborhood, then broadcast from there
> using wireless?
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Gino Villarini
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:56 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without
> changing anything.
>
>
>
> Check it out: ow.ly/xGUH308zChn
>
>
>
> *Gino Villarini*
>
> President
>
> Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Is this urban?

[Chuck McCown]

40°21'37.03"N, 111°58'43.96"W

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:58 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Is this urban?

I think this list serv strips off files that are too big

-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/1/2017 2:57:29 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] Fw: Is this urban?

  This was that attachment.  Did it not come through?

  From: Chuck McCown 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:34 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Is this urban?

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Is this urban?

[Chuck McCown]

ODD, was a KMZ.  I guess the list is stripping it off.  

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:57 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] Fw: Is this urban?

This was that attachment.  Did it not come through?

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:34 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Is this urban?

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Is this urban?

[Adam Moffett]

I think this list serv strips off files that are too big

-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/1/2017 2:57:29 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] Fw: Is this urban?


This was that attachment.  Did it not come through?

From:Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:34 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Is this urban?

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Is this urban?

[Mike Hammett]

No. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 1:57:29 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] Fw: Is this urban? 




This was that attachment. Did it not come through? 




From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:34 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Is this urban? 

[AFMUG] Fw: Is this urban?

[Chuck McCown]

This was that attachment.  Did it not come through?

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:34 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Is this urban?

Re: [AFMUG] Is this urban?

[Gino Villarini]

No pic

From: Af > on behalf of Chuck 
McCown >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>
Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 3:34 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" >
Subject: [AFMUG] Is this urban?





Gino Villarini


President
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968

[cid:aeronet-logo_310cfc3e-6691-4f69-bd49-b37b834b9238.png]

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

I “need” at least 10 meg at home.  I want to stream 2-3 things at once.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:55 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 1meg.  
10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about how they're using 
it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their entertainment.

Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity as long as 
I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service makes me a happy and 
contented consumer for the foreseeable future.

Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the standard 
delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of today and the need 
of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build anything else, then in the 
long run you'll have people still clamoring for improvement and it will end up 
being replaced.  

There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, and you 
can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and permanent answer is 
going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay relevant in the future you'll be 
looking at how to get into that game whether it's with private funding or 
government subsidy.

This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to succeed.but 
facts is facts.

-Adam



-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

  Chuck,

  Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the current 
standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily done with 
wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still think there is a very 
valid argument that 10Mbps is more than sufficient for the services that the 
government should be guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 is 
more about entertainment than anything else and I don’t see where this is a 
taxpayer obligation.   I want Broadway shows in my little town too - but I 
don’t expect the government to fund them.

  The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they can and are 
really looking to replace all last mile with wireless if they can make it work 
(and they think they can).  I don’t think it will be long until getting 
traditional landline service in the city is no longer an option - why would we 
still be forcing this in rural areas?

  The other issue is the cash cow that funded USF for years (intrastate phone 
revenue) is rapidly diminishing and will finish it's spiral of death soon 
unless the contribution base is expanded to broadband.  

  Mark

  Mark Radabaugh
  WISPA FCC Committee Chair
  fcc_ch...@wispa.org
  419-261-5996

On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:38 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house 
every 5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas 
like that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service 
the rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:

  You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, 
so I wouldn't hold my breath.

  On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:

i think that bank account may be closed very soon

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

  Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and 
the only approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to 
orange trash bags.   Except when those are out of stock. 

  Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need 
more support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if they do it this 
year or next.

  Mark Radabaugh
  WISPA FCC Committee Chair
  fcc_ch...@wispa.org
  419-261-5996

On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:49:50 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


These should all be fiber fed. Any new 

Re: [AFMUG] Is this urban?

[Jaime Solorza]

Stealth version

On Feb 1, 2017 12:36 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

> I realize this is not downtown anywhere, but I don’t see mm wave stuff
> working here.
>
> *From:* Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:34 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Is this urban?
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Is this urban?

[Mike Hammett]

No attachment. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 1:34:49 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] Is this urban? 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Adam Moffett]

I agree with you on the need.  In my mind, nobody "needs" more than 
1meg.  10meg generally makes them happy and not have too fuss about how 
they're using it (for now).  They "want" 25-100 meg for all their 
entertainment.


Put another way:  I might only "need" 10 amps of electrical capacity as 
long as I'm careful about how I'm using it, but my 200 amp service makes 
me a happy and contented consumer for the foreseeable future.


Regardless of what anyone "needs", fiber is going to end up the standard 
delivery mechanism for data because it will meet the need of today and 
the need of next year and the next 50 years.  If you build anything 
else, then in the long run you'll have people still clamoring for 
improvement and it will end up being replaced.


There's nothing wrong with meeting the immediate need with wireless, and 
you can absolutely make money doing it, but the long term and permanent 
answer is going to be fiber.  So if you want to stay relevant in the 
future you'll be looking at how to get into that game whether it's with 
private funding or government subsidy.


This is a WISP, we're a WISPA member, and I want WISP's to 
succeed.but facts is facts.


-Adam



-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Radabaugh" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/1/2017 2:11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


Chuck,

Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the 
current standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily 
done with wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still 
think there is a very valid argument that 10Mbps is more than 
sufficient for the services that the government should be guaranteeing 
(phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 is more about entertainment 
than anything else and I don’t see where this is a taxpayer obligation. 
  I want Broadway shows in my little town too - but I don’t expect the 
government to fund them.


The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they can 
and are really looking to replace all last mile with wireless if they 
can make it work (and they think they can).  I don’t think it will be 
long until getting traditional landline service in the city is no 
longer an option - why would we still be forcing this in rural areas?


The other issue is the cash cow that funded USF for years (intrastate 
phone revenue) is rapidly diminishing and will finish it's spiral of 
death soon unless the contribution base is expanded to broadband.


Mark

Mark Radabaugh
WISPA FCC Committee Chair
fcc_ch...@wispa.org
419-261-5996


On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:38 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 
house every 5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to 
build out in areas like that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one 
single house.


From:That One Guy /sarcasm
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively 
service the rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money


On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:
You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big 
telco, so I wouldn't hold my breath.


On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:

i think that bank account may be closed very soon

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  
wrote:
Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and 
the only approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from 
black to orange trash bags.   Except when those are out of stock.


Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the 
need more support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if 
they do it this year or next.


Mark Radabaugh
WISPA FCC Committee Chair
fcc_ch...@wispa.org
419-261-5996 


On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
 
 
 


Midwest Internet Exchange 
 
 


The Brothers WISP 





From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:49:50 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 

Re: [AFMUG] Is this urban?

[Chuck McCown]

I realize this is not downtown anywhere, but I don’t see mm wave stuff working 
here.  

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:34 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Is this urban?

[AFMUG] Is this urban?

[Chuck McCown]

Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without changing anything.

[Gino Villarini]

Im talking urban.. Utah has 20 houses… :-)

From: Af > on behalf of Chuck 
McCown >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>
Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 3:21 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.




Gino Villarini


President
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968

[cid:aeronet-logo_310cfc3e-6691-4f69-bd49-b37b834b9238.png]

Around here the homes are surrounded by trees.

From: Gino Villarini
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:19 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.

You could go below the treeline… Im thinking a good spot on a street pole could 
light up a block of 20-40 houses

From: Af  on behalf of Chuck McCown 
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 3:02 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.




Gino Villarini


President
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968

[cid:8F405008694C47B8B0C3136EAE82472A@ChuckMcCownPC]

I have seen some papers that say the PMP is going to via millimeter wave 
radios.  I am sure they will get along with trees very well.

From: Sterling Jacobson
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 11:44 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.

I like your article.

What is the specific topology and deployment for this scenario though?

Vivint and a few others have set up fiber access nodes on Schools and buildings 
local to the neighborhoods, then did their form of mesh from there.

Is that the expected use case?

That fiber is brought in near the neighborhood, then broadcast from there using 
wireless?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:56 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.

Check it out: ow.ly/xGUH308zChn



Gino Villarini

President

Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968


[cid:78A29D31EEFF4C2CB4222EE8B24F54C8@ChuckMcCownPC]

Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without changing anything.

[Chuck McCown]

Around here the homes are surrounded by trees.  

From: Gino Villarini 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:19 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.

You could go below the treeline… Im thinking a good spot on a street pole could 
light up a block of 20-40 houses 

From: Af  on behalf of Chuck McCown 
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 3:02 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.





  Gino Villarini
 
  President 
  Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 




I have seen some papers that say the PMP is going to via millimeter wave 
radios.  I am sure they will get along with trees very well.  

From: Sterling Jacobson
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 11:44 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.

I like your article.

 

What is the specific topology and deployment for this scenario though?

 

Vivint and a few others have set up fiber access nodes on Schools and buildings 
local to the neighborhoods, then did their form of mesh from there.

 

Is that the expected use case?

 

That fiber is brought in near the neighborhood, then broadcast from there using 
wireless?

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:56 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.

 

Check it out: ow.ly/xGUH308zChn

   

  Gino Villarini
 
  President
 
  Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968
 

Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without changing anything.

[Gino Villarini]

You could go below the treeline… Im thinking a good spot on a street pole could 
light up a block of 20-40 houses

From: Af > on behalf of Chuck 
McCown >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>
Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 3:02 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.




Gino Villarini


President
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968

[cid:aeronet-logo_310cfc3e-6691-4f69-bd49-b37b834b9238.png]

I have seen some papers that say the PMP is going to via millimeter wave 
radios.  I am sure they will get along with trees very well.

From: Sterling Jacobson
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 11:44 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.

I like your article.

What is the specific topology and deployment for this scenario though?

Vivint and a few others have set up fiber access nodes on Schools and buildings 
local to the neighborhoods, then did their form of mesh from there.

Is that the expected use case?

That fiber is brought in near the neighborhood, then broadcast from there using 
wireless?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:56 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.

Check it out: ow.ly/xGUH308zChn



Gino Villarini

President

Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968


[cid:D095658DC56347A780152D5F7A6E68C4@ChuckMcCownPC]

Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without changing anything.

[Gino Villarini]

For cities, is fairly straight forward.  For urban, would be fiber to the tower 
or curb, then MMW PTMP.

From: Af > on behalf of 
Sterling Jacobson >
Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
>
Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 2:44 PM
To: "af@afmug.com" >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.

I like your article.

What is the specific topology and deployment for this scenario though?

Vivint and a few others have set up fiber access nodes on Schools and buildings 
local to the neighborhoods, then did their form of mesh from there.

Is that the expected use case?

That fiber is brought in near the neighborhood, then broadcast from there using 
wireless?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:56 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.

Check it out: ow.ly/xGUH308zChn



Gino Villarini

President

Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968


[cid:image001.png@01D27C80.9AA9E7D0]



Gino Villarini


President
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968

[cid:aeronet-logo_310cfc3e-6691-4f69-bd49-b37b834b9238.png]

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Chuck McCown]

Because you don’t build copper any more.  The RUS will not finance a copper 
build.  
The USF contribution base is largely coming from cell phone carriers these 
days, but yes it will probably eventually expand to all internet services.

Hey, I didn’t write the rules, I just read them.  Don’t hate me because I am 
beautiful.  

From: Mark Radabaugh 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 12:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

Chuck,

Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the current 
standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily done with 
wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still think there is a very 
valid argument that 10Mbps is more than sufficient for the services that the 
government should be guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 is 
more about entertainment than anything else and I don’t see where this is a 
taxpayer obligation.   I want Broadway shows in my little town too - but I 
don’t expect the government to fund them.

The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they can and are 
really looking to replace all last mile with wireless if they can make it work 
(and they think they can).  I don’t think it will be long until getting 
traditional landline service in the city is no longer an option - why would we 
still be forcing this in rural areas?

The other issue is the cash cow that funded USF for years (intrastate phone 
revenue) is rapidly diminishing and will finish it's spiral of death soon 
unless the contribution base is expanded to broadband.  

Mark

Mark Radabaugh
WISPA FCC Committee Chair
fcc_ch...@wispa.org
419-261-5996

  On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:38 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house 
every 5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in areas 
like that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house.  

  From: That One Guy /sarcasm 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

  If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money

  On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:

You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so 
I wouldn't hold my breath.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
 wrote:

  i think that bank account may be closed very soon

  On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and the 
only approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to orange 
trash bags.   Except when those are out of stock. 

Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need 
more support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if they do it this 
year or next.

Mark Radabaugh
WISPA FCC Committee Chair
fcc_ch...@wispa.org
419-261-5996

  On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

  They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit.




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Darin Steffl" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:49:50 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these


  These should all be fiber fed. Any new DSLAM's with CAF funding are 
very likely fiber fed. They just can't support the bandwidth requirements with 
only bonded T1's anymore. 

  On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Josh Reynolds 
 wrote:

One would suspect a calix e7-2 or e7-20 (2Tbps backplane, 100Gbps 
link to each line card). I don't think you can even feed those by anything 
short of at least a gig ethernet circuit. I never really tried on any of the 
E7-2s I've used in the past though :)

On Jan 31, 2017 11:29 PM, "Forrest Christian (List Account)" 
 wrote:

  Out of curiosity, do  you know how are they feeding these 
shelves?   


  I know that in at least one case a couple of years ago, Qwest was 
feeding an entire neighborhood on I think 4 T1's.   


  On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Darin Steffl 
 wrote:

Exactly. Calix VDSL2 Remote DSLAM. These are the result of CAF 
funding from Govt. to provide minimum 10/1 Mbps speeds to the census blocks 
they took funding for. 

If Centurylink had crappy or no DSL in these areas before, 

Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these

[Mark Radabaugh]

Chuck,

Explain why we would have to bury fiber for that customer when the current 
standard for ‘served’ for Internet is 10Mbps which is easily done with 
wireless, and “Advanced Broadband” is 25/3Mb.I still think there is a very 
valid argument that 10Mbps is more than sufficient for the services that the 
government should be guaranteeing (phone, telemedicine, education).  25/3 is 
more about entertainment than anything else and I don’t see where this is a 
taxpayer obligation.   I want Broadway shows in my little town too - but I 
don’t expect the government to fund them.

The major carriers are moving away from landlines as fast as they can and are 
really looking to replace all last mile with wireless if they can make it work 
(and they think they can).  I don’t think it will be long until getting 
traditional landline service in the city is no longer an option - why would we 
still be forcing this in rural areas?

The other issue is the cash cow that funded USF for years (intrastate phone 
revenue) is rapidly diminishing and will finish it's spiral of death soon 
unless the contribution base is expanded to broadband.  

Mark

Mark Radabaugh
WISPA FCC Committee Chair
fcc_ch...@wispa.org
419-261-5996

> On Feb 1, 2017, at 12:38 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> 
> Depends on what you call rural.  I have served areas with perhaps 1 house 
> every 5 miles.  You are not going to find a wisp willing to build out in 
> areas like that.  I plowed 20 miles of fiber for one single house. 
>  
> From: That One Guy /sarcasm <>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 10:34 AM
> To: af@afmug.com <>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these
>  
> If WISPA does their job well, small business can more effectively service the 
> rural markets than the telcos, for alot less money
>  
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jason McKemie 
> > wrote:
>> You think? It seems like the Republicans are in the pocket of big telco, so 
>> I wouldn't hold my breath.
>> 
>> On Wednesday, February 1, 2017, That One Guy /sarcasm 
>> > wrote:
>>> i think that bank account may be closed very soon
>>>  
>>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Mark Radabaugh > wrote:
 Lipstick on a pig.   The copper in still rotting in the ground and the 
 only approved Centurylink fix appears to be the upgrade from black to 
 orange trash bags.   Except when those are out of stock.
  
 Centurylink will be back to the FCC shortly crying about how the need more 
 support money to fix the plant.  The only question is if they do it this 
 year or next.
  
 Mark Radabaugh
 WISPA FCC Committee Chair
 fcc_ch...@wispa.org <>
 419-261-5996 
  
> On Feb 1, 2017, at 8:15 AM, Mike Hammett > wrote:
>  
> They couldn't before either, but they didn't give a shit.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>   
>  
>  
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>   
>  
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> From: "Darin Steffl" >
> To: af@afmug.com <>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:49:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CenturyLink installing these
> 
> These should all be fiber fed. Any new DSLAM's with CAF funding are very 
> likely fiber fed. They just can't support the bandwidth requirements with 
> only bonded T1's anymore.
>  
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Josh Reynolds > 
> wrote:
>> One would suspect a calix e7-2 or e7-20 (2Tbps backplane, 100Gbps link 
>> to each line card). I don't think you can even feed those by anything 
>> short of at least a gig ethernet circuit. I never really tried on any of 
>> the E7-2s I've used in the past though :)
>>  
>> On Jan 31, 2017 11:29 PM, "Forrest Christian (List Account)" 
>> > wrote:
>>> Out of curiosity, do  you know how are they feeding these shelves?   
>>> 
>>> I know that in at least one case a couple of years ago, Qwest was 
>>> feeding an entire neighborhood on I think 4 T1's.   
>>>  
>>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Darin Steffl >> <>> wrote:
 Exactly. Calix VDSL2 Remote DSLAM. These are the result of CAF funding 

Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without changing anything.

[Chuck McCown]

I have seen some papers that say the PMP is going to via millimeter wave 
radios.  I am sure they will get along with trees very well.  

From: Sterling Jacobson 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2017 11:44 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.

I like your article.

 

What is the specific topology and deployment for this scenario though?

 

Vivint and a few others have set up fiber access nodes on Schools and buildings 
local to the neighborhoods, then did their form of mesh from there.

 

Is that the expected use case?

 

That fiber is brought in near the neighborhood, then broadcast from there using 
wireless?

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:56 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] My latest Blog; How #5G will change everything without 
changing anything.

 

Check it out: ow.ly/xGUH308zChn

   

  Gino Villarini
 
  President
 
  Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968
 

Re: [AFMUG] Scheduling software for home automation

[Simon Westlake]

There's tons, just search for 'field scheduling software' and you'll get 
a bunch. I've looked at:


http://www.fieldtechnologies.com/
https://www.vworkapp.com/
http://www.msidata.com/field-service-scheduling-software
http://www.serviceceo.com/

vWorkApp has given me a lot of inspiration in the past.

On 2/1/2017 12:39 PM, Timothy Steele wrote:
Anyone know of a scheduling software that's like powercode but not for 
monthly clients? I work for a home automation company big need for 
something like that, but it's not monthly service when it's done. it's 
done.


If anyone knows of something like that
Or willing to make 1 for us please let me know


Thanks!


--
Simon Westlake
Email: simon@sonar.software
Phone: (702) 447-1247
---
Sonar Software Inc
The future of ISP billing and OSS
https://sonar.software

Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different Markets

[Adam Moffett]

The other way is to define different service options and say that not 
all options are available in all areas.


If there's an option that's more money for less speed nobody will 
intentionally choose it, but you can tell them that's the option 
available in their area.  This way happens to also work seamlessly with 
billing systems since you have to differentiate the rate options in the 
system that way anyhow.


One problem you will not avoid no matter how you spell it out is that 
some people will draw their own conclusions about why you're charging 
them more than people in another area.  I.E.: They'll say you're a 
greedy, evil person with selfish and petty reasons for discriminating 
against them.  I don't have any faith in my fellow humans, so take that 
with a grain of salt.




-- Original Message --
From: "Sterling Jacobson" 
To: "af@afmug.com" 
Sent: 2/1/2017 1:37:38 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different 
Markets



Ugh, that is difficult.



If it were me, at the very least I would just make a pricing page 
online and spell it all out for each ‘area’.




If you want to be more discreet you could just advertise the lowest 
priced rate/plan and say there are higher speed options to contact you.




The fancy way would be for them to fill out a form and get an immediate 
response via email or online as to their rate plans per the area.








From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Gray
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 11:28 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Providing Service at Different Rates / in Different 
Markets




How do others handle providing service in different markets at 
different rates?




As I've expanded into different areas, I've found I need to charge 
significantly different rates and have to provide different speeds. I 
adjusted my website to say things like: "...up to" and "...starting at 
$...".  It feels a bit misleading. I want to be clear without 
publishing every single service option.




I'd like some suggestions for more appropriately treating the different 
areas. Perhaps entering a zipcode or town to see price options?




Thank you - Chris