To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Thu, November 25, 2010 6:17:22 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On what bounds do you call the Baha'i Faith socially liberal?
I suggest we are socially liberal because we insist on the elimination
of prejudice and fanaticism
, November 29, 2010 9:58:23 AM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Even soical conservatives beleive in gender equality, race equality, etc.
The social liberal - social conservative divide tends to be on issues such as
abortion, gay rights, drugs, sex, etc
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
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Socially liberal, but morally conservative?
I suspect that socially liberal means feeling strongly about social
justice or social welfare and being ok with
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 9:58:23 AM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Even soical conservatives beleive in gender equality, race equality, etc.
The social liberal - social conservative divide tends to be on issues
.
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 10:16:08 AM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies
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On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
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No social conservative I know is for sexism, racism, slavery, segreation,
etc. you imply that you associate with the term social conservative.
It's a matter of
than the
social-perosnal-cultural civic scale. Did you check out the Nolan chart in the
other email?
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 11:00:57 AM
Subject: Re: Grave
, privatization, welfare cheats, rugged
individualism, hard-working Americans, save you millions of dollars.
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 10:16:08 AM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 10:16:08 AM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Socially liberal
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 29 Nov 2010 at 8:17, Stephen Gray wrote:
Social conservatism is a political or moral ideology that believes that
government has a role in encouraging or enforcing what they consider
traditional values or behaviors. ... Is the Baha'i Faith socially
liberal on
in
the other email?
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 11:00:57 AM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Stephen Gray
, November 29, 2010 11:39:20 AM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
On 29 Nov 2010 at 8:17, Stephen Gray wrote:
Social conservatism is a political or moral ideology that believes that
government has a role in encouraging or enforcing what they consider
traditional values or behaviors
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 11:24:35 AM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
But isn't the relevant question: what did Susan actually mean when she said
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Even soical conservatives beleive in gender equality, race equality, etc.
Often they do not.
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No social conservative I know is for sexism, racism, slavery, segreation,
etc. you imply that you associate with the term social conservative.
Come down here to Mississippi, I'll introduce you to some.
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You are
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I suspect that socially liberal means feeling strongly about social
justice or social welfare and being ok with collective and/or
government measures to remedy problems in this area (progressive
taxes, social security, food stamps, etc.) while morally
conservative
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Look at the Nolan Chart.
I'm not inclined to let libertarians like David Nolan define my beliefs.
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, pederasty, etc. will have heavier fines,
imprisonment, and even the death penalty.
From: Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl
To: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com; Baha'i Studies
bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 11:39:20 AM
Subject: Re: Grave
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So you're saying Susan favors a moralistic social (insert type of govt).
I'll go out on a limb and say oligarchy, maybe republic.
Uh, no. An oligarchy presumes that actions are taken in interest of
the elites. Social liberalism supports the common people.
12:58:06 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
So you're saying Susan favors a moralistic social (insert type of govt).
I'll go out on a limb and say oligarchy, maybe republic.
Uh, no. An oligarchy presumes that actions are taken in interest of
the elites. Social
/Radical_Conservative.php
http://quiz2d.com/quiz/Social_Conservative.php
From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 12:30:07 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Look
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 29 Nov 2010 at 9:46, Stephen Gray wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21023921/An-Introduction-to-Bahai-Law
Udo Shaefer implies Baha'i law mandates that it becomes the law of the
land.
I think you are misreading him. He says the laws
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
No, I meant democracy as rule by the people. Republic as rule by elected
representatvies. Oligarchy is that but with the representatives as a de-facto
ruling class.
Your definition of oligarchy makes no sense to me, but certainly our
country is a Republic and not
/wiki/Republic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy
From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 3:29:58 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Oligarchy means rule by gruop. It's like a monarchy, but several rulers
instead of one. It's means rule by oligarchs regardless of if they are
elist
or non-elist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy
Uh, that's not what wiki says:
The oligarchy (from Greek
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Military dictatorship/junta can be an example of non-elist oligarchy
From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 4:10:38 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i
...@yahoo.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Military dictatorship/junta can be an example of non-elist oligarchy
From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 4:10:38 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 24 Nov 2010 at 13:36, Stephen Gray wrote:
The crime of adultery/fornication being liable to be fined is one of
the examples of social conservatism.
This is not a court penalty for a criminal act, it has more in common
with confession for a Catholic, and it is
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
What Sen fails to mention is that many of these quotes from World
Order of Baha'u'llah do not refer to the Baha'i Commonwealth, but
rather its predecessor. As a number of letters written on the
Guardian's behalf point out:
As regards the International Executive
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On what bounds do you call the Baha'i Faith socially liberal?
I suggest we are socially liberal because we insist on the elimination
of prejudice and fanaticism, the equality of women and men and the
elimination of the extremes of poverty and wealth. Shoghi Effendi
wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Executive? Doesn't that mean they will have veto power?
From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 11:33:09 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Also, the Administration isn't going to replace the gov't but exist
alongside it.
That's Shoghi Effendi's position:
Theirs is not the purpose, while endeavoring to conduct and perfect
the administrative affairs of their Faith, to violate, under any
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 23 Nov 2010 at 10:25, Stephen Gray wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Executive? Doesn't that mean they will have veto power?
Executive is used in two different ways in the Bahai writings, which
can cause confusion, although the different contexts always make it
penalty itself to be illiberal. Moral
conservatism inevitably leads to social conservatism.
From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 11:22:43 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies
, November 22, 2010 11:29:46 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Uh, that's a reference to the Revolution of 1848 not the Revolution of 1789.
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In a session of the French
.
From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 11:12:18 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
. The Baha'i Writings make numberous references to
people giving to charity and the fund.
And how would you
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Executive? Doesn't that mean they will have veto power?
From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 11:33:09 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Actually the most recent one is Senator Mike Gravel of Alaska.
On the contrary, Gravel has been unequivocally opposed to
representative democracy for at least the last 10 years or so. In a
representative democracy, the representative
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Executive? Doesn't that mean they will have veto power?
Not necessarily. You make the mistake of assuming that the American
model is the only model.
Don C
--
- - -
Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in
Calkins montana...@great-falls.net
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 12:42:55 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Actually the most recent one is Senator Mike Gravel of Alaska.
On the contrary, Gravel has
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I didn't know they sen't him a letter. I read his blog sometimes, so
I should have been able to know that.
He rarely mentions, let alone discusses it. See
http://bahai-library.com/uhj_theocracy
Don C
--
- - -
Understood properly,
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 23 Nov 2010 at 11:42, Don Calkins wrote:
Also, the Administration isn't going to replace the gov't but exist
alongside it.
That's Shoghi Effendi's position:
Theirs is not the purpose, while endeavoring to conduct and perfect
the administrative affairs of their
PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
. Even better than Hayek is Lewdwig von Mises. His Human
Action should be a must-read for every Bahai.
And how would you reconcile his libertarianism with the Baha'i Teachings?
__
You
: Fri, November 19, 2010 10:26:12 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
. Even better than Hayek is Lewdwig von Mises. His Human
Action should be a must-read for every Bahai.
And how would you reconcile his libertarianism with the Baha'i Teachings
put it out of the bounds of liberalism.
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 10:42:34 AM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
There are arguments to be made
of the bounds of liberalism.
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 10:42:34 AM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
There are arguments to be made supporting left
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 22 Nov 2010 at 11:42, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
In terms of the Bahai Faith, the writings say that extremes of wealth
should be abolished which sounds a bit different from pure laissez
faire capitalism. In a Bahai future wouldn't the fund also be an
actual tax
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On 22 Nov 2010 at 11:42, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
In terms of the Bahai Faith, the writings say that extremes of wealth
should be abolished which sounds a bit different from pure laissez
faire capitalism. In a Bahai future wouldn't the fund
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Flat taxes are actually conservative. Liberals always try to make
taxation progressive. This idea first came from the Communist
Manifesto.
That is a lie. That is, the ideologues propounding such an idea
know, or should know, that it is
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The issue of democracy is that it's policies will reflect what the
people who make them and vote for them.
Not necessarily.
In a democratic form of gov't, the people who make the laws are
chosen by the people; the people do not
Bastiat convinced them otherwise.
From: Don Calkins montana...@great-falls.net
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 12:29:37 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
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Flat taxes
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You're making it sound like the future there won't be damocracy anymore.
From: Don Calkins montana...@great-falls.net
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 12:33:53 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
You're making it sound like the future there won't be damocracy anymore.
Not as we typically think of it today, no. Perhaps you also believe
that the ancient Athenians and the American Founding Fathers
advocated a pure democracy? The
PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
You're making it sound like the future there won't be damocracy anymore.
Not as we typically think of it today, no. Perhaps you also believe that the
ancient Athenians and the American Founding Fathers
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
. The Baha'i Writings make numberous references to
people giving to charity and the fund.
And how would you reconcile your liberalism with the Baha'i Teachings?
By Abdu'l-Baha's clear references to progressive taxation, to natural
resources being held in common, by
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Because it's the heart and soul of conservatism.
Shoghi Effendi urged us to be at the forefront of all *progressive*
movements, not conservative ones.
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In a Bahai future wouldn't the fund also be an
actual tax which would be coerced?
No, not the Fund. Baha'u'llah says that even the Huquq must be
entirely voluntary. However, when Abdu'l-Baha speaks of the common
warehouse based on progressive taxation I don't get the
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Flat taxes are actually conservative.
Yes, they are.
Liberals always try to make taxation
progressive.
As does Abdu'l-Baha.
This idea first came from the Communist Manifesto.
No, actually Adam Smith voiced support for this idea much earlier. He
wrote the
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 12:29:37 PM
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Flat taxes are actually conservative. Liberals always try to make taxation
progressive. This idea first came from the Communist
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Are you on facebook, dear Shahram?
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 3:18 PM, shahram rohani shahramroh...@yahoo.comwrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
dear Matt,
The meaning of Radical or Extremist is clear.such a person or view can
be in both wings.
Tks/Rohani
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hi ... We could all go on for months debating exactly who on the list is a
benign influence on the world and who isn’t. We all have thinkers and scholars
whom we admire and others whom we detest. I suppose any or all the members of
Howse’s list could qualify as
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
dear Matt,
The meaning of Radical or Extremist is clear.such a person or view can be
in both wings.
Tks/Rohani
--- On Thu, 11/18/10, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com wrote:
From: Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Grave Influence
To: Baha'i Studies
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
. Even better than Hayek is Lewdwig von Mises. His Human
Action should be a must-read for every Bahai.
And how would you reconcile his libertarianism with the Baha'i Teachings?
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Von Mises is much too complicated to be reduced to labels.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
. Even better than Hayek is Lewdwig von Mises. His Human
Action should be a must-read for every
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Von Mises is much too complicated to be reduced to labels.
Well that's a non-answer.
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http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/store/product.php?ProductID=1164
Saul Alinsky, Karl Marx, John Dewey, John Maynard Keynes, Aldous Huxley,
Charles
Darwin, Friedrich Nietzsche, Margaret Sanger, William James, Alice Bailey,
Helen
Schucman, Sigmund Freud, Alfred
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I was surfing the web and stumbled on this. I already knew about John
Maynard Keynes and Karl Marx. What are your views of how radicals have
changed society? Also, I have a positive view of one, Soren Kierkegaard.
Keynes and Kierkegaard radicals?
Keynes was
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I hate to say it, but in my view Keynes was dead wrong about
everything (except developing metrics for macroeco.) The one that's
worth reading is his rival, Fredrick Hayek. Read his Road to
Serfdom. Even better than Hayek is Lewdwig von Mises. His Human
Action should
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I don't know how you are defining the term radical. Quite a few of these
people on the list come from the Left, so is that how you are defining it?
Would you also refer to certain people associated with the Right as
radicals?
On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Stephen
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