[BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py, comes off as trying too hard to be cute. #EpicFail. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
Hi Svaksha, This can be fixed by sending a mail to the author and in this case, forking, modifying and asking for a pull request. Why is there a necessity to name and shame ? I did not find anything derogatory in the code (that I checked). I would normally have responded to this offlist but I see this as trolling[1]. -- Vinayak 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29 On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:49 PM, svaksha svak...@gmail.com wrote: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py, comes off as trying too hard to be cute. #EpicFail. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
All, Seriously, I thought people were busy not having time after the conference. I would love to see who wants to add more commits to this particular repository. Come on guys, I thought you had better jobs to do than try (very) hard to make fun of others. If there are such jobless people, I have lots of work that I could share with you. Please let me know. @Svaksha, thank you for pointing it out. I see Anand Pillai's commit already there. Need I say more to this (un)gentlemanly attitude! One word to all ladies working with this guy, beware! Warm regards, Annapoornima Pyladies Bangalore On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:49 PM, svaksha svak...@gmail.com wrote: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py, comes off as trying too hard to be cute. #EpicFail. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Svaksha, This can be fixed by sending a mail to the author and in this case, forking, modifying and asking for a pull request. Why is there a necessity to name and shame ? Is'nt Anand Pillai a PSF member? This is hardly what one expects from a PSF member. I did not find anything derogatory in the code (that I checked). From, https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py/blob/master/__init__.py def get_purpose(): Return the purpose raise AmbiguousMissionError, Mission unclear I would normally have responded to this offlist but I see this as trolling[1]. Oh, thanks Vinayak, but would you care to explain how I am trolling when the above is clearly breaking the CoC: http://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ , by making fun of Anu's efforts publicly. Hardly Open or Considerate and definitely not Respectful. If Anand can create a public repo on github to poke fun of another Python community member, why would you object to me raising it in the same public forum that we are all an equal part of? Are there different standards now? svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
Hi, On Sunday 08 September 2013 01:07 AM, svaksha wrote: On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Svaksha, This can be fixed by sending a mail to the author and in this case, forking, modifying and asking for a pull request. Why is there a necessity to name and shame ? Is'nt Anand Pillai a PSF member? This is hardly what one expects from a PSF member. I did not find anything derogatory in the code (that I checked). From, https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py/blob/master/__init__.py def get_purpose(): Return the purpose raise AmbiguousMissionError, Mission unclear FWIW, I'm more intrigued by the isnt_that_odd() function. Maybe the intent is not merely being cheeky, there's something deeper that Anand felt strongly enough to create this repo ? Should we perhaps discuss that publicly too ? cheers, - steve ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
I've sent a few emails to Svaksha - first asking what exactly was not right, and then followed up stating that I didn't see the source code itself. I don't know what Anand had in mind writing such code. Knowing him and his strong sense of sarcastic humor, I'd like to reserve judgement on his actions until he explains himself. I know that he does care about educating folks about Python and helping evangelize it. -- Ram On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:49 PM, svaksha svak...@gmail.com wrote: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py, comes off as trying too hard to be cute. #EpicFail. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers -- Belenix: www.belenix.org Twitter: @sriramnrn ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On second thoughts maybe this was the objectionable part def get_purpose(): Return the purpose raise AmbiguousMissionError, Mission unclear Also the URL http://ladiespy.com does not resolve. Also there are python programmers(gender-neutral term) on this list. Maybe if there are any issues with attitude, you are better off talking on this list and educating people than having a separate mailing list as it divides the community (which I assume was the intent of the author). Intent and tone do not travel well over the Internet. -- Vinayak On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Svaksha, This can be fixed by sending a mail to the author and in this case, forking, modifying and asking for a pull request. Why is there a necessity to name and shame ? I did not find anything derogatory in the code (that I checked). I would normally have responded to this offlist but I see this as trolling[1]. -- Vinayak 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29 On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:49 PM, svaksha svak...@gmail.com wrote: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py, comes off as trying too hard to be cute. #EpicFail. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 4:42 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: On second thoughts maybe this was the objectionable part def get_purpose(): Return the purpose raise AmbiguousMissionError, Mission unclear Also the URL http://ladiespy.com does not resolve. Ah, maybe you would like to follow up on your own suggestion and submit a Bug report :) !? Also there are python programmers(gender-neutral term) on this list. Maybe if there are any issues with attitude, you are better off talking on this list and educating people Umm... its not a woman's job to educate men (or anyone else for that matter) on basic manners. And this isnt his first attempt at humor either: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/2013-July/009125.html If one has a public sense of humor, one should be prepared for being called out publicly too. You cant expect to behave badly in public and then be educated in private. #NotMyJob. than having a separate mailing list as it divides the community (which I assume was the intent of the author). Intent and tone do not travel well over the Internet. They dont and if he had a problem with the group he could have raised it on the PyLadies-BLR mailing list to which he is subscribed to. He never did. Infact, IIRC, he joined the mailing list on 02Sept**, the same day he commits to the ladies.py repo on Github. ** (Disclaimer: I'm one of the list admins and I cross-checked this now.) svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: +1. Btw, I founded and manage this list, but I see my actions deserve some explanation. As Sriram, said I do have a (somewhat extreme) sense of sarcastic and dry humour. I am also a PSF member from 2010 and also President of PSSI. So? If anything, you should be held to higher standards as a PSF member and PSSI president. curious. Maybe the OP of this thread who is an active member I may be the OP but I am not the founder, rather just a member who setup the mailman list as I disliked the meetup.com communication tool and dislike googlegroups even more. of PyLadies could explain it - just to educate all of us here and me in particlar. I hope Anu's email was explanation enough. My isnt_that_odd function of ladies.py was specifically written to bring this point. Happy to see it hit the target. Anand, now you just come across as self-entitled and arrogant. The if apology not withstanding. 2. Mission - It would be nice to educate us all in this list about the goals of a separate organization for ladies coding as apart from the general PSF umbrella. I am not misogynistic You have been a PSF member since 2010, so did you question the PSF when they gave a $10,000 grant to the Pyladies.com org? I'm curious because you want to know about the motives of a chapter. in anyway, but in general I don't personally agree with woman coding as a separate problem as opposed to people coding. I hope you raised these objections on the PSF mailing list too. -svaksha ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
Hi Annapoornima I am ready to work please share job details in Python development Regards Srinivasa On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Annapoornima Koppad a.kop...@gmail.comwrote: All, Seriously, I thought people were busy not having time after the conference. I would love to see who wants to add more commits to this particular repository. Come on guys, I thought you had better jobs to do than try (very) hard to make fun of others. If there are such jobless people, I have lots of work that I could share with you. Please let me know. @Svaksha, thank you for pointing it out. I see Anand Pillai's commit already there. Need I say more to this (un)gentlemanly attitude! One word to all ladies working with this guy, beware! Warm regards, Annapoornima Pyladies Bangalore On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:49 PM, svaksha svak...@gmail.com wrote: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py, comes off as trying too hard to be cute. #EpicFail. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
Audrey, We would like to hear your thoughts on the antics pulled by Anand Pillai (member of PSF). ref: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/2013-September/thread.html Mails with the subject : https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py Most of us, don't like the way he is hiding behind his style of sarcastic humor, but for fear of being called an outcast from the community, we don't have the guts to come out in the open. Being a member / moderator / owner of various e-groups (tech non-tech) in India, I know very well, how quickly one can become an outcast for speaking out. Especially, against somebody popular like Anand. I would personally, recommend, that a proper warning be served to Anand for his misconduct. I sincerely hope that Anand is given his due for his uncalled and unwarranted 'sarcastic humor'. I am taking the trouble to escalate this issue, since Anand is a member of PSF and President of Indian Python Software Society. People with attitude like his should not be allowed to hold such posts. Regards Pratham PS: If somebody has cloned the code repository by Anand, please share the code with pyladies. If you don't want to get entangled in this mess, email the code to me, I will guarantee your anonymity. Anand, in the meanwhile please read : http://www.pyladies.com/CodeOfConduct/ On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Daniel Greenfeld pyda...@gmail.com wrote: As a PSF member I'm going to delurk right now. That's because as an admirer/supporter of the India Python community, I'm rather shocked and saddened by this thread. Angry. Furious. Demanding of real apologies. Svashka is standing up for what's right. I'm behind what she says 100%. ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 4:20 AM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 08 September 2013 08:23 AM, svaksha wrote: The next time you see anything related to PyLadies or women in Foss, feel free to air your sexist view that women's groups is an issue more of politics than technology and society on the PSF list. The zen of Python decrees that Errors should never pass silently. and Explicit is better than implicit. Zen of Python also says, Now is better than never. Let us end this now. Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules. I possibly did a special case and broke the rules. Practicality beats purity. Beautiful is better than ugly. Since this is getting rather ugly, let us try and make it beautiful and be practical about it. I sincerely apologize in a heart-felt way for hurting the sentiments of the PyLadies Bangalore community . I would next time get my doubts cleared first in their mailing list before taking such actions. I hope the sentiments are cleared now. Thank you for the apology Anand. I am seeing a number of mails and I am yet to read them all; but first, I wanted to thank everyone who supported us and request an end this thread. This apology is a lot more acceptable than the if one and I'd like to move on. To all those who support PyLadies, a big ThankYou. Anand, another request, can you delete the chillpill repo on github? I had not forked your (now deleted) ladies.py repo publicly as I felt you deserved a chance to explain yourself. However, your chillpill repo comes across as STFU, annoying enough that I forked it on github. I'm happy to delete it if you care to go first. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dear all, On Saturday 07 September 2013 11:20 PM, Sriram Narayanan wrote: I've sent a few emails to Svaksha - first asking what exactly was not right, and then followed up stating that I didn't see the source code itself. I don't know what Anand had in mind writing such code. Knowing him and his strong sense of sarcastic humor, I'd like to reserve judgement on his actions until he explains himself. I know that he does care about educating folks about Python and helping evangelize it. +1. Btw, I founded and manage this list, but I see my actions deserve some explanation. As Sriram, said I do have a (somewhat extreme) sense of sarcastic and dry humour. I am also a PSF member from 2010 and also President of PSSI. I was going through the PyLadies initiative and I found what were a few interesting (intriguing) things about it. 1. Most FOSS/open source projects/initiatives have a .org (organization) TLD. Pyladies is a .com website. I find it curious. Maybe the OP of this thread who is an active member of PyLadies could explain it - just to educate all of us here and me in particlar. My isnt_that_odd function of ladies.py was specifically written to bring this point. Happy to see it hit the target. 2. Mission - It would be nice to educate us all in this list about the goals of a separate organization for ladies coding as apart from the general PSF umbrella. I am not misogynistic in anyway, but in general I don't personally agree with woman coding as a separate problem as opposed to people coding. Btw, I am not a shady character though I stand indicted on being politically incorrect and I plead guilty as charged. The project was started (in a light way) to bring this into attention. Now that the conversation has started, let me bring shutters on it without releasing a 0.2. Anyway the unit tests were failing :) -- Ram On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:49 PM, svaksha svak...@gmail.com wrote: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py, comes off as trying too hard to be cute. #EpicFail. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers - -- Regards, - --Anand - -- Software Architect/Consultant anandpil...@letterboxes.org Please note my updated email address anandpil...@letterboxes.org. Kindly update your address books. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSK25SAAoJEMTxYeOp9eaodekIAJHv+qSPNRNffOtP2y6G+FzR qkv1Mk1UdP1Zf6e7j9RNMpRdGFMB1IZk8GnvPccYXghDa6y8DlWKdBIc0vst09wJ +Wl2pyjn57oPHgbi4LTTaOB6cImecupEOScx8Z55b53gxwT5aWXW3pGQAmUQKGpl L2+K8aeW9p94sOLvcr7Utqog7paTh7jKlgfjBamk1sHQEa1aDQMWUlC9TsXwdd5d 81OYiy5k0feL/a8Q2RF6mzWKSXs028KYKZFjSvRYXOuctXvqKEL0VAlqbVfTapkr Q+xrUOFTQILxQJhwcsltlDodyANHTSzZGSrSTca5RhyExqAe407SLATuQqgI93c= =9KGn -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On Sat, Sep 07, 2013 at 11:50:03PM +0530, Anand B Pillai wrote: Dear all, +1. Btw, I founded and manage this list, but I see my actions deserve some explanation. As Sriram, said I do have a (somewhat extreme) sense of sarcastic and dry humour. I am also a PSF member from 2010 and also President of PSSI. The first thing, I was taught in Linux, when using the 'su' command, with power comes great responsibility. Looks he forgot that important lesson. Forgive the poor sod. He does not realise, how is justification has harmed him his 'repustation' more than that 'intelligent' piece of code. To err is human, to forgive is divine, they say. BTW, Anand is it PSSI or IPSS? (typo, I think) Cheers Pratham ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 7:22 AM, Ramdas S ram...@gmail.com wrote: Anand is someone who has contributed immensely as a programmer, and as an evangelist to Python community. His humour may be distasteful, misogynist or whatever, but that are his personal views, and definitely not as IPSS President or PSF member. This is more or less similar to justifying why Obama got the Noble peace prize. He did some good work earlier, but now he is free to wage war on other nations, BUT don't forget the good work he has done! If he has been such a good evangelist of the Python community, he should have been far more careful before trying to crack 'sarcastic' jokes on a community trying to do some good work. It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently. ~ Warren Buffett I am done with my thoughts on the issue and leave it to the community to decide what is wrong, what is right and what action should be taken. Cheers Pratham ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
More, I had a good mind to email this particular detail to every women mailing list that I am aware of. But then, it would portray all Bangalore men in bad light. Which is not my intention. More over, I am in touch with the PSF board itself, I had a good mind to send your repository link to the PSF board itself. @Anand Pillai, I am aware that you are on this list. There was not one single email from you asking me about the intentions of Pyladies Bangalore. You give me more reasons to never learn from guys like you. Either you explain here on public and tell everyone what was the intentions behind this, whom exactly where you targeting, or apologize for your behavior, irrespective of your intentions,I will let it go. Else its your choice, you choose. @Vinayak, every woman on this emailing list needs to be aware of the cheekiness of other men (and women) who try to put you down. This will be a learning phase for them too. I dont think this counts as trolling. Please read thoroughly before emailing. Thanks and regards, Annapoornima Pyladies Bangalore On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: On second thoughts maybe this was the objectionable part def get_purpose(): Return the purpose raise AmbiguousMissionError, Mission unclear Also the URL http://ladiespy.com does not resolve. Also there are python programmers(gender-neutral term) on this list. Maybe if there are any issues with attitude, you are better off talking on this list and educating people than having a separate mailing list as it divides the community (which I assume was the intent of the author). Intent and tone do not travel well over the Internet. -- Vinayak On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Svaksha, This can be fixed by sending a mail to the author and in this case, forking, modifying and asking for a pull request. Why is there a necessity to name and shame ? I did not find anything derogatory in the code (that I checked). I would normally have responded to this offlist but I see this as trolling[1]. -- Vinayak 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29 On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:49 PM, svaksha svak...@gmail.com wrote: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py, comes off as trying too hard to be cute. #EpicFail. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 12:45 AM, Pratham Gadre pratham.ga...@gmail.comwrote: Audrey, We would like to hear your thoughts on the antics pulled by Anand Pillai (member of PSF). ref: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/2013-September/thread.html Mails with the subject : https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py Most of us, don't like the way he is hiding behind his style of sarcastic humor, but for fear of being called an outcast from the community, we don't have the guts to come out in the open. Being a member / moderator / owner of various e-groups (tech non-tech) in India, I know very well, how quickly one can become an outcast for speaking out. Especially, against somebody popular like Anand. I would personally, recommend, that a proper warning be served to Anand for his misconduct. I sincerely hope that Anand is given his due for his uncalled and unwarranted 'sarcastic humor'. I am taking the trouble to escalate this issue, since Anand is a member of PSF and President of Indian Python Software Society. People with attitude like his should not be allowed to hold such posts. Regards Pratham PS: If somebody has cloned the code repository by Anand, please share the code with pyladies. If you don't want to get entangled in this mess, email the code to me, I will guarantee your anonymity. Anand, in the meanwhile please read : http://www.pyladies.com/CodeOfConduct/ I agree with Pratham. It doesn't seems from Anand's mail that he is apologetic for his behavior. His final mail where he apologizes after quoting from the Zen is like mocking others. The kind of behavior is totally unacceptable and is kind of Cyber Violence and more specifically Cyber Bullying. Legally speaking it can also lead to a case of Online Harassment under Sexual Harassment and Cyber Bullying under Sec 66A of IT Act 2000. On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Daniel Greenfeld pyda...@gmail.com wrote: As a PSF member I'm going to delurk right now. That's because as an admirer/supporter of the India Python community, I'm rather shocked and saddened by this thread. Angry. Furious. Demanding of real apologies. Svashka is standing up for what's right. I'm behind what she says 100%. ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
Hi.. Its was in bad taste and treated as such, proper apology demanded and given.. hence we hope all the concerned party rest this.. or take it up in private. ..a full apology from Anand is on the maillist, posted at 9:50AM 8 Sep 2013. rgds Srikanth On 08-Sep-2013, at 11:15 AM, Pratham Gadre pratham.ga...@gmail.com wrote: Audrey, We would like to hear your thoughts on the antics pulled by Anand Pillai (member of PSF). ref: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/2013-September/thread.html Mails with the subject : https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py Most of us, don't like the way he is hiding behind his style of sarcastic humor, but for fear of being called an outcast from the community, we don't have the guts to come out in the open. Being a member / moderator / owner of various e-groups (tech non-tech) in India, I know very well, how quickly one can become an outcast for speaking out. Especially, against somebody popular like Anand. I would personally, recommend, that a proper warning be served to Anand for his misconduct. I sincerely hope that Anand is given his due for his uncalled and unwarranted 'sarcastic humor'. I am taking the trouble to escalate this issue, since Anand is a member of PSF and President of Indian Python Software Society. People with attitude like his should not be allowed to hold such posts. Regards Pratham PS: If somebody has cloned the code repository by Anand, please share the code with pyladies. If you don't want to get entangled in this mess, email the code to me, I will guarantee your anonymity. Anand, in the meanwhile please read : http://www.pyladies.com/CodeOfConduct/ On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Daniel Greenfeld pyda...@gmail.com wrote: As a PSF member I'm going to delurk right now. That's because as an admirer/supporter of the India Python community, I'm rather shocked and saddened by this thread. Angry. Furious. Demanding of real apologies. Svashka is standing up for what's right. I'm behind what she says 100%. ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
+1 to Svaksha Pratham for speaking out. Anand Pillai, your conduct is unbecoming of a python community member, leave alone a member of PSF and IPSS. IMHO, there should be no place on PSF for people like you. In your first response, you come off as super arrogant haughty, as if having started this mailing list confers you special powers to make fun of PyLadies. There are consequences to actions. I for one would like to not have Anand Pillai as member of PSF or president of IPSS. cheers ashish Sent from mobile device. Excuse typos. On Sep 8, 2013 11:15 AM, Pratham Gadre pratham.ga...@gmail.com wrote: Audrey, We would like to hear your thoughts on the antics pulled by Anand Pillai (member of PSF). ref: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/2013-September/thread.html Mails with the subject : https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py Most of us, don't like the way he is hiding behind his style of sarcastic humor, but for fear of being called an outcast from the community, we don't have the guts to come out in the open. Being a member / moderator / owner of various e-groups (tech non-tech) in India, I know very well, how quickly one can become an outcast for speaking out. Especially, against somebody popular like Anand. I would personally, recommend, that a proper warning be served to Anand for his misconduct. I sincerely hope that Anand is given his due for his uncalled and unwarranted 'sarcastic humor'. I am taking the trouble to escalate this issue, since Anand is a member of PSF and President of Indian Python Software Society. People with attitude like his should not be allowed to hold such posts. Regards Pratham PS: If somebody has cloned the code repository by Anand, please share the code with pyladies. If you don't want to get entangled in this mess, email the code to me, I will guarantee your anonymity. Anand, in the meanwhile please read : http://www.pyladies.com/CodeOfConduct/ On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Daniel Greenfeld pyda...@gmail.com wrote: As a PSF member I'm going to delurk right now. That's because as an admirer/supporter of the India Python community, I'm rather shocked and saddened by this thread. Angry. Furious. Demanding of real apologies. Svashka is standing up for what's right. I'm behind what she says 100%. ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
+1 Regards, Abdul Muneer -- Follow me on Twitter: @abdulmuneer http://twitter.com/#%21/abdulmuneer On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 11:52 AM, T S KAMATH tsk.kam...@gmail.com wrote: Hi.. Its was in bad taste and treated as such, proper apology demanded and given.. hence we hope all the concerned party rest this.. or take it up in private. ..a full apology from Anand is on the maillist, posted at 9:50AM 8 Sep 2013. rgds Srikanth On 08-Sep-2013, at 11:15 AM, Pratham Gadre pratham.ga...@gmail.com wrote: Audrey, We would like to hear your thoughts on the antics pulled by Anand Pillai (member of PSF). ref: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/2013-September/thread.html Mails with the subject : https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py Most of us, don't like the way he is hiding behind his style of sarcastic humor, but for fear of being called an outcast from the community, we don't have the guts to come out in the open. Being a member / moderator / owner of various e-groups (tech non-tech) in India, I know very well, how quickly one can become an outcast for speaking out. Especially, against somebody popular like Anand. I would personally, recommend, that a proper warning be served to Anand for his misconduct. I sincerely hope that Anand is given his due for his uncalled and unwarranted 'sarcastic humor'. I am taking the trouble to escalate this issue, since Anand is a member of PSF and President of Indian Python Software Society. People with attitude like his should not be allowed to hold such posts. Regards Pratham PS: If somebody has cloned the code repository by Anand, please share the code with pyladies. If you don't want to get entangled in this mess, email the code to me, I will guarantee your anonymity. Anand, in the meanwhile please read : http://www.pyladies.com/CodeOfConduct/ On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Daniel Greenfeld pyda...@gmail.com wrote: As a PSF member I'm going to delurk right now. That's because as an admirer/supporter of the India Python community, I'm rather shocked and saddened by this thread. Angry. Furious. Demanding of real apologies. Svashka is standing up for what's right. I'm behind what she says 100%. ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] Fwd: Fw: Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
My apology is retracted. I am sorry to have asked questions you can't answer. And I am truly sorry you are so unpleasant in how you deal with anything that isn't exactly to your liking. Again, closing the thread. From: svaksha svak...@gmail.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 1:38 PM Subject: [BangPypers] Fwd: Fw: Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py Chris, STOP emailing me offlist. I made it very clear earlier that I didnt want to have any private conversations and have said everything on the list. List admins, can you do something to stop this? Thanks. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष -- Forwarded message -- From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 6:32 PM Subject: Fw: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py To: svak...@gmail.com svak...@gmail.com Svaksah, This was intended to be sent to you directly, not to the group list. My rule is praise in public, criticize in private. But I made a mistake in replying using this yahoo email interface. My apologies. - Forwarded Message - From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py That is what I thought - you have no answers and are simply interested in forcing others by your bullying. I took it off topic, directly to you, because I was honestly interested in your reply and didn't want your reply to be compelled to be less than honest. So my asking you a question you don't want to answer means you label it troll and wondering your position on equality of free speech is ad hominem . Your stance and attitude do your cause disservice. I don't believe you have even it any thought and perhaps don't even grasped my point. Which is unfortunate, it seems as so many liberals, that you are being loud without being thoughtful. From: svaksha svak...@gmail.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 12:49 PM Subject: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py Chris, was it easier to troll in private than on the public Bangpypers mailing list? If you're reduced to ad hominem and that too in private off-list messages, you're pretty clearly out of anything remotely relevant to say. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष -- Forwarded message -- From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py To: svak...@gmail.com svak...@gmail.com svaksha, Let me see if I can summarize your string of responses: You are offended by Anand making fun of a group that used .com instead of .org and he apparently was sarcastically bringing into question/criticism some parts of your stated mission. In the subsequent emails, you threatened to report him and announced you felt the need to shame him on this list. So in essence Anand poked fun at some of your organizational decisions, and your response was to threaten. You would be a better representative for your views if you 1) Develop thicker skin about criticism - if you are confident in your cause, you don't have to be so easily offended. This episode illustrates that you are not. It makes your position, like your confidence, look weak. 2) Threatening to get someone in trouble over an opinion is political correctness, which is very damaging to open discourse and thought. You not only have the right to voice your opinions, but also as part of that right, you have the right to dislike another's opinion. This should never be confused with the non-existent right to shut up someone when they displease you... You would not want someone to shut you up when they disagree with you - so have the decency to recognize that applies both of you. I have had this discussion many times - for some reason programmers, despite having a college education, did not seem to pay enough attention to civil rights class. I realize you were angry and this is how you dealt with the insult you perceived. But unfortunately when you react, by being easily bruised, unconfident, and demanding suppression of othersdamages your cause. Now, final note - Anand made a point that has been made many times before, and I would be interested in your response: What purpose is served by creating a women's group, instead of joining the existing group thus making it more diverse? In other words, what purpose is served by intentional segregation? Regards, Chris Payments Systems engineer - Omaha, Nebraska, US From: svaksha svak...@gmail.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2013 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers
[BangPypers] Fwd: Fw: Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
Chris, STOP emailing me offlist. I made it very clear earlier that I didnt want to have any private conversations and have said everything on the list. List admins, can you do something to stop this? Thanks. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष -- Forwarded message -- From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 6:32 PM Subject: Fw: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py To: svak...@gmail.com svak...@gmail.com Svaksah, This was intended to be sent to you directly, not to the group list. My rule is praise in public, criticize in private. But I made a mistake in replying using this yahoo email interface. My apologies. - Forwarded Message - From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py That is what I thought - you have no answers and are simply interested in forcing others by your bullying. I took it off topic, directly to you, because I was honestly interested in your reply and didn't want your reply to be compelled to be less than honest. So my asking you a question you don't want to answer means you label it troll and wondering your position on equality of free speech is ad hominem . Your stance and attitude do your cause disservice. I don't believe you have even it any thought and perhaps don't even grasped my point. Which is unfortunate, it seems as so many liberals, that you are being loud without being thoughtful. From: svaksha svak...@gmail.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 12:49 PM Subject: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py Chris, was it easier to troll in private than on the public Bangpypers mailing list? If you're reduced to ad hominem and that too in private off-list messages, you're pretty clearly out of anything remotely relevant to say. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष -- Forwarded message -- From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py To: svak...@gmail.com svak...@gmail.com svaksha, Let me see if I can summarize your string of responses: You are offended by Anand making fun of a group that used .com instead of .org and he apparently was sarcastically bringing into question/criticism some parts of your stated mission. In the subsequent emails, you threatened to report him and announced you felt the need to shame him on this list. So in essence Anand poked fun at some of your organizational decisions, and your response was to threaten. You would be a better representative for your views if you 1) Develop thicker skin about criticism - if you are confident in your cause, you don't have to be so easily offended. This episode illustrates that you are not. It makes your position, like your confidence, look weak. 2) Threatening to get someone in trouble over an opinion is political correctness, which is very damaging to open discourse and thought. You not only have the right to voice your opinions, but also as part of that right, you have the right to dislike another's opinion. This should never be confused with the non-existent right to shut up someone when they displease you... You would not want someone to shut you up when they disagree with you - so have the decency to recognize that applies both of you. I have had this discussion many times - for some reason programmers, despite having a college education, did not seem to pay enough attention to civil rights class. I realize you were angry and this is how you dealt with the insult you perceived. But unfortunately when you react, by being easily bruised, unconfident, and demanding suppression of othersdamages your cause. Now, final note - Anand made a point that has been made many times before, and I would be interested in your response: What purpose is served by creating a women's group, instead of joining the existing group thus making it more diverse? In other words, what purpose is served by intentional segregation? Regards, Chris Payments Systems engineer - Omaha, Nebraska, US From: svaksha svak...@gmail.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2013 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On Sunday 08 September 2013 01:44 AM, svaksha wrote: On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: +1. Btw, I founded and manage this list, but I see my actions deserve some explanation. As Sriram, said I do have a (somewhat extreme) sense
Re: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
That is what I thought - you have no answers and are simply interested in forcing others by your bullying. I took it off topic, directly to you, because I was honestly interested in your reply and didn't want your reply to be compelled to be less than honest. So my asking you a question you don't want to answer means you label it troll and wondering your position on equality of free speech is ad hominem . Your stance and attitude do your cause disservice. I don't believe you have even it any thought and perhaps don't even grasped my point. Which is unfortunate, it seems as so many liberals, that you are being loud without being thoughtful. From: svaksha svak...@gmail.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 12:49 PM Subject: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py Chris, was it easier to troll in private than on the public Bangpypers mailing list? If you're reduced to ad hominem and that too in private off-list messages, you're pretty clearly out of anything remotely relevant to say. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष -- Forwarded message -- From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py To: svak...@gmail.com svak...@gmail.com svaksha, Let me see if I can summarize your string of responses: You are offended by Anand making fun of a group that used .com instead of .org and he apparently was sarcastically bringing into question/criticism some parts of your stated mission. In the subsequent emails, you threatened to report him and announced you felt the need to shame him on this list. So in essence Anand poked fun at some of your organizational decisions, and your response was to threaten. You would be a better representative for your views if you 1) Develop thicker skin about criticism - if you are confident in your cause, you don't have to be so easily offended. This episode illustrates that you are not. It makes your position, like your confidence, look weak. 2) Threatening to get someone in trouble over an opinion is political correctness, which is very damaging to open discourse and thought. You not only have the right to voice your opinions, but also as part of that right, you have the right to dislike another's opinion. This should never be confused with the non-existent right to shut up someone when they displease you... You would not want someone to shut you up when they disagree with you - so have the decency to recognize that applies both of you. I have had this discussion many times - for some reason programmers, despite having a college education, did not seem to pay enough attention to civil rights class. I realize you were angry and this is how you dealt with the insult you perceived. But unfortunately when you react, by being easily bruised, unconfident, and demanding suppression of othersdamages your cause. Now, final note - Anand made a point that has been made many times before, and I would be interested in your response: What purpose is served by creating a women's group, instead of joining the existing group thus making it more diverse? In other words, what purpose is served by intentional segregation? Regards, Chris Payments Systems engineer - Omaha, Nebraska, US From: svaksha svak...@gmail.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2013 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On Sunday 08 September 2013 01:44 AM, svaksha wrote: On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: +1. Btw, I founded and manage this list, but I see my actions deserve some explanation. As Sriram, said I do have a (somewhat extreme) sense of sarcastic and dry humour. I am also a PSF member from 2010 and also President of PSSI. So? If anything, you should be held to higher standards as a PSF member and PSSI president. I have my personal standards and I am not the type of person who likes to project stereotypes if you understand what I mean. I like to break stereotypes. Btw, if you have heard of the term anarchy, possibly that corresponds best to what I did. Maybe you aren't used to people in position resorting to anarchy, but I have often found it effective. See, people come from various backgrounds and beliefs, so the most civilized thing to do is to respect the other person's view points while asserting your freedom to differ instead of trying to ram down your thoughts down other's throats again and again. This is especially true in mailing lists. Being the last person to post in a thread doesn't mean you are essentially
Re: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
My apologies folks, this was intended to be send directly to the individual, not to the group. I generally ask someone to justify their beliefs, not to see if I agree or not, but merely to determine if they have bothered to think out their own position. If they haven't done any thinking. So, like alot of you, I'm ending this thread too. From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py That is what I thought - you have no answers and are simply interested in forcing others by your bullying. I took it off topic, directly to you, because I was honestly interested in your reply and didn't want your reply to be compelled to be less than honest. So my asking you a question you don't want to answer means you label it troll and wondering your position on equality of free speech is ad hominem . Your stance and attitude do your cause disservice. I don't believe you have even it any thought and perhaps don't even grasped my point. Which is unfortunate, it seems as so many liberals, that you are being loud without being thoughtful. From: svaksha svak...@gmail.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 12:49 PM Subject: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py Chris, was it easier to troll in private than on the public Bangpypers mailing list? If you're reduced to ad hominem and that too in private off-list messages, you're pretty clearly out of anything remotely relevant to say. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष -- Forwarded message -- From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py To: svak...@gmail.com svak...@gmail.com svaksha, Let me see if I can summarize your string of responses: You are offended by Anand making fun of a group that used .com instead of .org and he apparently was sarcastically bringing into question/criticism some parts of your stated mission. In the subsequent emails, you threatened to report him and announced you felt the need to shame him on this list. So in essence Anand poked fun at some of your organizational decisions, and your response was to threaten. You would be a better representative for your views if you 1) Develop thicker skin about criticism - if you are confident in your cause, you don't have to be so easily offended. This episode illustrates that you are not. It makes your position, like your confidence, look weak. 2) Threatening to get someone in trouble over an opinion is political correctness, which is very damaging to open discourse and thought. You not only have the right to voice your opinions, but also as part of that right, you have the right to dislike another's opinion. This should never be confused with the non-existent right to shut up someone when they displease you... You would not want someone to shut you up when they disagree with you - so have the decency to recognize that applies both of you. I have had this discussion many times - for some reason programmers, despite having a college education, did not seem to pay enough attention to civil rights class. I realize you were angry and this is how you dealt with the insult you perceived. But unfortunately when you react, by being easily bruised, unconfident, and demanding suppression of othersdamages your cause. Now, final note - Anand made a point that has been made many times before, and I would be interested in your response: What purpose is served by creating a women's group, instead of joining the existing group thus making it more diverse? In other words, what purpose is served by intentional segregation? Regards, Chris Payments Systems engineer - Omaha, Nebraska, US From: svaksha svak...@gmail.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2013 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On Sunday 08 September 2013 01:44 AM, svaksha wrote: On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: +1. Btw, I founded and manage this list, but I see my actions deserve some explanation. As Sriram, said I do have a (somewhat extreme) sense of sarcastic and dry humour. I am also a PSF member from 2010 and also President of PSSI. So? If anything, you should be held to higher standards as a PSF member and PSSI president. I have my personal standards and I am not the type of person who likes to project stereotypes if you understand what I mean
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
Hello Annapoornima, I can understand your stance, but I think, this email is bit strongly worded and could hurt the readers. And as a helpful note, I think, leadership on your effort could be built more in friendly cooperative way than by intimidation. Personally, I care more about python, language, learning and than others. First three guarantee me to be neutral on any topic. I hope, others in this list have that in that order too. So, sorry, I am bowing out of this discussion and I hope others would too. Thank you, Senthil On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Annapoornima Koppad a.kop...@gmail.comwrote: More, I had a good mind to email this particular detail to every women mailing list that I am aware of. But then, it would portray all Bangalore men in bad light. Which is not my intention. More over, I am in touch with the PSF board itself, I had a good mind to send your repository link to the PSF board itself. @Anand Pillai, I am aware that you are on this list. There was not one single email from you asking me about the intentions of Pyladies Bangalore. You give me more reasons to never learn from guys like you. Either you explain here on public and tell everyone what was the intentions behind this, whom exactly where you targeting, or apologize for your behavior, irrespective of your intentions,I will let it go. Else its your choice, you choose. @Vinayak, every woman on this emailing list needs to be aware of the cheekiness of other men (and women) who try to put you down. This will be a learning phase for them too. I dont think this counts as trolling. Please read thoroughly before emailing. Thanks and regards, Annapoornima Pyladies Bangalore On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: On second thoughts maybe this was the objectionable part def get_purpose(): Return the purpose raise AmbiguousMissionError, Mission unclear Also the URL http://ladiespy.com does not resolve. Also there are python programmers(gender-neutral term) on this list. Maybe if there are any issues with attitude, you are better off talking on this list and educating people than having a separate mailing list as it divides the community (which I assume was the intent of the author). Intent and tone do not travel well over the Internet. -- Vinayak On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Svaksha, This can be fixed by sending a mail to the author and in this case, forking, modifying and asking for a pull request. Why is there a necessity to name and shame ? I did not find anything derogatory in the code (that I checked). I would normally have responded to this offlist but I see this as trolling[1]. -- Vinayak 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29 On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:49 PM, svaksha svak...@gmail.com wrote: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py, comes off as trying too hard to be cute. #EpicFail. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
Ouch, there was mail that came just before i hit send. I +1-ed what Mr. Kamath said. Its was in bad taste and treated as such, proper apology demanded and given.. hence we hope all the concerned party rest this.. or take it up in private. It might be a politically incorrect thing for person holding a position to resort to humor (because it may not be humor for ALL audience). But I do not consider that as damaging as blowing it out of proportion. Let's not linger on the negativity for too long as it is toxic. Please cheer up, dear folks. Hug each other.. Regards, Abdul Muneer -- Follow me on Twitter: @abdulmuneer http://twitter.com/#%21/abdulmuneer On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Abdul Muneer abdulmun...@gmail.com wrote: +1 Regards, Abdul Muneer -- Follow me on Twitter: @abdulmuneer http://twitter.com/#%21/abdulmuneer On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 11:52 AM, T S KAMATH tsk.kam...@gmail.com wrote: Hi.. Its was in bad taste and treated as such, proper apology demanded and given.. hence we hope all the concerned party rest this.. or take it up in private. ..a full apology from Anand is on the maillist, posted at 9:50AM 8 Sep 2013. rgds Srikanth On 08-Sep-2013, at 11:15 AM, Pratham Gadre pratham.ga...@gmail.com wrote: Audrey, We would like to hear your thoughts on the antics pulled by Anand Pillai (member of PSF). ref: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/2013-September/thread.html Mails with the subject : https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py Most of us, don't like the way he is hiding behind his style of sarcastic humor, but for fear of being called an outcast from the community, we don't have the guts to come out in the open. Being a member / moderator / owner of various e-groups (tech non-tech) in India, I know very well, how quickly one can become an outcast for speaking out. Especially, against somebody popular like Anand. I would personally, recommend, that a proper warning be served to Anand for his misconduct. I sincerely hope that Anand is given his due for his uncalled and unwarranted 'sarcastic humor'. I am taking the trouble to escalate this issue, since Anand is a member of PSF and President of Indian Python Software Society. People with attitude like his should not be allowed to hold such posts. Regards Pratham PS: If somebody has cloned the code repository by Anand, please share the code with pyladies. If you don't want to get entangled in this mess, email the code to me, I will guarantee your anonymity. Anand, in the meanwhile please read : http://www.pyladies.com/CodeOfConduct/ On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Daniel Greenfeld pyda...@gmail.com wrote: As a PSF member I'm going to delurk right now. That's because as an admirer/supporter of the India Python community, I'm rather shocked and saddened by this thread. Angry. Furious. Demanding of real apologies. Svashka is standing up for what's right. I'm behind what she says 100%. ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 08 September 2013 12:46 PM, svaksha wrote: On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 4:20 AM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 08 September 2013 08:23 AM, svaksha wrote: The next time you see anything related to PyLadies or women in Foss, feel free to air your sexist view that women's groups is an issue more of politics than technology and society on the PSF list. The zen of Python decrees that Errors should never pass silently. and Explicit is better than implicit. Zen of Python also says, Now is better than never. Let us end this now. Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules. I possibly did a special case and broke the rules. Practicality beats purity. Beautiful is better than ugly. Since this is getting rather ugly, let us try and make it beautiful and be practical about it. I sincerely apologize in a heart-felt way for hurting the sentiments of the PyLadies Bangalore community . I would next time get my doubts cleared first in their mailing list before taking such actions. I hope the sentiments are cleared now. Thank you for the apology Anand. I am seeing a number of mails and I am yet to read them all; but first, I wanted to thank everyone who supported us and request an end this thread. This apology is a lot more acceptable than the if one and I'd like to move on. To all those who support PyLadies, a big ThankYou. Anand, another request, can you delete the chillpill repo on github? I had not forked your (now deleted) ladies.py repo publicly as I felt you deserved a chance to explain yourself. However, your chillpill repo comes across as STFU, annoying enough that I forked it on github. I'm happy to delete it if you care to go first. Done. Btw, you are welcome to email me individually about constructive programs we could do along with PyLadies. I shall also share my phone number once we get a conversation going. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers - -- Regards, - --Anand - -- Software Architect/Consultant anandpil...@letterboxes.org Please note my updated email address anandpil...@letterboxes.org. Kindly update your address books. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSLDD1AAoJEMTxYeOp9eaoq+oIAJ34a2mVoDpe6XJVAgo1+996 K2z2ZVDL4+N4Isxf+1cvTYUbfrJhET3Vq1TH0++apJx4OYFGfABqZtHcPZHaGlm3 61YAJMnTgpaDqybIi1e/uyN4sLEmU0Tj1T/ttYaqs7JX9uzsn/LNhLpcf/S6a8OY pSJLqj8TxnEUswIDaX9WyfwQ4SBZ7oolrQQyssj1K/ddU0gvrMb4I14XxixjayUQ 2gucQhzT2B663u3fa2nyXtrHQZx9lWsAl266li4/J1x2rV1YmYi96f7KwN4nlKWn 2NP7ds5CDtPW3jW1Fi/c42ztFULAfBOhGrTow1ahkk22Nz2ywQoV30q1/xSDKAU= =tXxD -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] Appropriate list conduct (was Re: Fwd: Fw: Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py)
Bibhas, You should be able to rest easy. In the 10+yrs I have been on this mailing seldom/never have I seen someone bring in discord and in-your-face as was done recently... I rather expect to go another 10yrs before seeing it here again. Now, to Bibhas' point about desiring to see Pythonic discussions - always good initiative to start some discussions rather than waiting for one. We try to avoid questions that fail the did you google it first? test. Other that that, whether a discussion is interesting and topical is, er, subjective. Don't be afraid to try it. Not every discussion must be about the arcane here. So to that I started a thread of interest to me, hopefully useful to those new to the list, what favorite tips our experts here found of frequent use. From: Bibhas m...@bibhas.in To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 10:41 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Appropriate list conduct (was Re: Fwd: Fw:Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py) Thanks Dhananjay, Finally someone is asking something sensible among all the mud throwing that's going on. I have the same set of questions. I'm one of the junior most members here and the behaviors of all the senior members have really disappointed me for last two days. Specially because a lot of people who participated in that thread, hardly participates in any python related discussions in this list. I joined this group thinking it'd be a constructive source of discussions. But with all the childish blaming around (like we kids take a matter to the teacher or parents or shout to the the class rather than trying to solve it ourselves), even after an apology was posted long back, I have started to believe that I'm in the wrong place. I'm now waiting for the matter to close and all the related people to come to peace. If that doesn't happen, I'm better off the list. And from the behaviors I've seen in last two days, I'd rather not join any other groups in future, new or old. Thanks for everything. Dhananjay Nene dhananjay.n...@gmail.com wrote: Top posting since am making some rather broad comments rather than to specific lines in particular. This is a thread which has been bothering me since morning. For a number of reasons. None of them have to do with the very essence of the thread, since I never got to see the repository and the code to be able to make a judgement. So I took an apology offered as a sign of matter closed and hopefully things taking a turn for the better. * Yet more comments continued about specific people. I've always thought a good decorum is to attack issues, generally not people. Is that a reasonable guideline to follow ? I really do not think it was appropriate to continue with judgement about people once the underlying issues had been addressed. I don't know if I hold a minority position here. * Further comments continued about how to appropriately bring the matter to a closure. I thought the convergence and agreement on the core issues should've closed it. I am frankly not sure why anyone would've imagined why list readers would be remotely interested in further tactical matters such as existence or deletion of github repos and the necessity to close them out and the sequencing thereof. * I was further happy to note that the thread died down, but no, there was more drama to follow. It so seems a private message was forwarded to the mailing list. I speak for myself, but to me and under my individual code of conduct, this is outrageous behaviour. This concerns me. There are some serious privacy issues here (imo). eg: I was to respond to matters raised in this mailing list to someone else privately, I am no longer sure whats the community stand - can it be made public or will the community severely frown on such a behaviour. I am in doubt because list admins are further being encouraged stop this whatever this means in the context. This breaks every known decorum I know of and I wonder if this list has a different set of rules than what I think lists follow. I think there are some meta-issues about the mailing list that do need to be discussed. I don't know if this is the place to do it, so will leave it at these set of open questions to be worked through. This discussion could be moved to an appropriate forum if this is not the place. Dhananjay On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 12:08 AM, svaksha svak...@gmail.com wrote: Chris, STOP emailing me offlist. I made it very clear earlier that I didnt want to have any private conversations and have said everything on the list. List admins, can you do something to stop this? Thanks. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष -- Forwarded message -- From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 6:32 PM Subject: Fw: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py To: svak...@gmail.com svak...@gmail.com Svaksah
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Annapoornima Koppad a.kop...@gmail.comwrote: More, I had a good mind to email this particular detail to every women mailing list that I am aware of. But then, it would portray all Bangalore men in bad light. Which is not my intention. More over, I am in touch with the PSF board itself, I had a good mind to send your repository link to the PSF board itself. Why does this portray _ALL_ Bangalore men in bad light ? Who are these Bangalore men. My remarks are not snide but you might want to go easy on the generalizations. My earlier remarks stand - it is better to educate and rather than name and shame. Also svaksha's mail did not mention what she found objectionable. I still think we can have a more mature and constructive discussion on this. @Vinayak, every woman on this emailing list needs to be aware of the cheekiness of other men (and women) who try to put you down. This will be a learning phase for them too. I dont think this counts as trolling. Please read thoroughly before emailing. I am not defending Anand here (I hardly know him well) but it might be better to talk to him personally rather than name and shame IMHO. As far as trolling is concerned, it is a matter of perspective (See the reference at the end of my last mail - I think the mail qualifies as trolling especially due to the lack of information and use of words like #EpicFail). I can also say that Anand was also trolling by posting the code. -- Vinayak ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
Hi, On Sunday 08 September 2013 01:26 AM, svaksha wrote: On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 4:42 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: On second thoughts maybe this was the objectionable part def get_purpose(): Return the purpose raise AmbiguousMissionError, Mission unclear Also the URL http://ladiespy.com does not resolve. Ah, maybe you would like to follow up on your own suggestion and submit a Bug report :) !? Also there are python programmers(gender-neutral term) on this list. Maybe if there are any issues with attitude, you are better off talking on this list and educating people Umm... its not a woman's job to educate men (or anyone else for that matter) on basic manners. And this isnt his first attempt at humor either: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/2013-July/009125.html aaah ! I only just got the joke (in light of the isnt_that_odd function)[1] ! I am seeing a pattern here. Interesting. I get a feeling that Anand wasn't even trying to be funny. sarcastic is possibly a better word I guess -- but I don't know enough to be sure. cheers, - steve [1] guess I'm better at reading code than understanding subtle humor. Good one Anand ! ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: Also svaksha's mail did not mention what she found objectionable. Vinayak, did you miss this email? https://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/2013-September/009359.html My replies are as inline text as I dislike top-posts and try to avoid that as much as possible. Do scroll down to the part wher I have provided a github link and also took the trouble of pasting the code for your convenience. I am not defending Anand here (I hardly know him well) but it might be Contrary to your denial, your email admonishing me for raising it on this list and calling me a troll (and then trying to educate Anu on its definition) does come across as defending Anand even if you claim not to know him well. better to talk to him personally rather than name and shame IMHO. As far as Err.. Why do you think it is my job (or anyone else's) to email him personally? As I mentioned earlier, if you behave poorly in public, dont expect private education. #NotMyJob. trolling is concerned, it is a matter of perspective (See the reference at the end of my last mail - I think the mail qualifies as trolling especially due to the lack of information and use of words like #EpicFail). I can also say that Anand was also trolling by posting the code. Vinayak, you can, but you didnt. Big difference that. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
[BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpillai at letterboxes.org wrote: in anyway, but in general I don't personally agree with woman coding as a separate problem as opposed to people coding. I hope you raised these objections on the PSF mailing list too. -svaksha As a PSF member I'm going to delurk right now. That's because as an admirer/supporter of the India Python community, I'm rather shocked and saddened by this thread. The PSF and pyladies have been affiliated for quite some time, arguably years at this point. In fact, the PSF has provided thousands, perhaps ten of thousands of dollars of support for PyLadies. In addition, PyLadies was co-founded by an Indian-American (Audrey Roy), so one can argue that the qualities that make up the group were influenced by her Indian heritage. For reference, Anand Pillai has never raised any issues about Pyladies in the PSF members mailing list or any other venues except for his now deleted GitHub repo, this thread, and a previous one. Like myself and other PSF members, there have been and are numerous opportunities and occasions to discuss PyLadies in official channels to which he has ready access. Rather than argue in one direction or another, I wonder how Anand would feel if I created a similar github repo, this one in regards to the entire Python community of India. Imagine those same code structures in regards to India. Imagine if I used all of his emailed arguments in the defense of my code and humor. How would the readers of this list feel? Angry. Furious. Demanding of real apologies. Svashka is standing up for what's right. I'm behind what she says 100%. -- 'Knowledge is Power' Daniel Greenfeld Principal at Cartwheel Web; co-author of Two Scoops of Django cartwheelweb.com | pydanny.com | django.2scoops.org ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 08 September 2013 08:23 AM, svaksha wrote: The next time you see anything related to PyLadies or women in Foss, feel free to air your sexist view that women's groups is an issue more of politics than technology and society on the PSF list. The zen of Python decrees that Errors should never pass silently. and Explicit is better than implicit. Zen of Python also says, Now is better than never. Let us end this now. Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules. I possibly did a special case and broke the rules. Practicality beats purity. Beautiful is better than ugly. Since this is getting rather ugly, let us try and make it beautiful and be practical about it. I sincerely apologize in a heart-felt way for hurting the sentiments of the PyLadies Bangalore community . I would next time get my doubts cleared first in their mailing list before taking such actions. I hope the sentiments are cleared now. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers - -- Regards, - --Anand - -- Software Architect/Consultant anandpil...@letterboxes.org Please note my updated email address anandpil...@letterboxes.org. Kindly update your address books. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSK/rpAAoJEMTxYeOp9eaoyToIAJf+P0JF9JOaYUzViLdEV7A5 VgFKI0kuvBTFYkt8+tI74C3PW7ZtKNPMF+ESsx8IqrmsO9aAdK6w7TPIVEuWHu/Q vO3Xl5u4JpoDV29VVoSjEoMebbx3vdFA7LCS/fFwLn7nX2nyIt3uYKarORIB+3Ne yKG/6W23MFQDzC7uX77asCFd3Dyk9CRueqJMjfU4HAUfqr1jQiBjUv54kz58+fPu 8hkuo+a4QpjNWWbUviZ6R145De4UFGctiXntoC0Z7Rkn/x3QBZod2mMeZBuHY5hr KBD/XfLxdfXjdZ9RY0NPg31GEcYi5rTMFm0QQz1fymC1+p0ZdBaB6Y3ZLer53eQ= =8w3Z -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
Pratham Gadre pratham.ga...@gmail.com writes: Audrey, We would like to hear your thoughts on the antics pulled by Anand Pillai (member of PSF). I think this is getting out of hand. There were mistakes made intentional or otherwise and this caused a lot of ill will. I'm not particularly fond of witch hunts. I don't think they're very effective and the damage done to the larger organisation when one of these things happen is often irreparable. The issue was raised on the mailing list and apologies were sent. If they are insufficient, it would be best to seek recitification by direct conversation rather than discussing it on a mailing list. Anand, Svashka and Annapoornima have all done a lot of work for the Python community in India. More than the work done by some of the others participating in this thread. While they have their differences, I don't think an internet drama is going to help matters in *any* way. I'm particularly put off by random people on the mailing list demanding that Anand be warned by the PSF or suggesting disciplinary action. People can make complaints and if necessary, action can be taken. I'd recommend (but don't expect) that the thread should be closed right now and further talk about this should be done between the parties involved rather than here on the mailing list. I'm off the thread. [...] -- Cordially, Noufal http://nibrahim.net.in ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
I think this is getting out of hand. There were mistakes made intentional or otherwise and this caused a lot of ill will. I'm not particularly fond of witch hunts. I don't think they're very effective and the damage done to the larger organisation when one of these things happen is often irreparable. The issue was raised on the mailing list and apologies were sent. If they are insufficient, it would be best to seek recitification by direct conversation rather than discussing it on a mailing list. Anand, Svashka and Annapoornima have all done a lot of work for the Python community in India. More than the work done by some of the others participating in this thread. While they have their differences, I don't think an internet drama is going to help matters in *any* way. I'm particularly put off by random people on the mailing list demanding that Anand be warned by the PSF or suggesting disciplinary action. People can make complaints and if necessary, action can be taken. I'd recommend (but don't expect) that the thread should be closed right now and further talk about this should be done between the parties involved rather than here on the mailing list. +1 While I understand that some people are hurt, and they have a right to be hurt, but everyone is making it look and sound personal. Anand is someone who has contributed immensely as a programmer, and as an evangelist to Python community. His humour may be distasteful, misogynist or whatever, but that are his personal views, and definitely not as IPSS President or PSF member. If someone needs an apology bigger than whatever he has offered, do call him or mail him. Else please bury the hatchet and smoke peace pipes :) ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
[BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
Chris, was it easier to troll in private than on the public Bangpypers mailing list? If you're reduced to ad hominem and that too in private off-list messages, you're pretty clearly out of anything remotely relevant to say. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष -- Forwarded message -- From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py To: svak...@gmail.com svak...@gmail.com svaksha, Let me see if I can summarize your string of responses: You are offended by Anand making fun of a group that used .com instead of .org and he apparently was sarcastically bringing into question/criticism some parts of your stated mission. In the subsequent emails, you threatened to report him and announced you felt the need to shame him on this list. So in essence Anand poked fun at some of your organizational decisions, and your response was to threaten. You would be a better representative for your views if you 1) Develop thicker skin about criticism - if you are confident in your cause, you don't have to be so easily offended. This episode illustrates that you are not. It makes your position, like your confidence, look weak. 2) Threatening to get someone in trouble over an opinion is political correctness, which is very damaging to open discourse and thought. You not only have the right to voice your opinions, but also as part of that right, you have the right to dislike another's opinion. This should never be confused with the non-existent right to shut up someone when they displease you... You would not want someone to shut you up when they disagree with you - so have the decency to recognize that applies both of you. I have had this discussion many times - for some reason programmers, despite having a college education, did not seem to pay enough attention to civil rights class. I realize you were angry and this is how you dealt with the insult you perceived. But unfortunately when you react, by being easily bruised, unconfident, and demanding suppression of othersdamages your cause. Now, final note - Anand made a point that has been made many times before, and I would be interested in your response: What purpose is served by creating a women's group, instead of joining the existing group thus making it more diverse? In other words, what purpose is served by intentional segregation? Regards, Chris Payments Systems engineer - Omaha, Nebraska, US From: svaksha svak...@gmail.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2013 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On Sunday 08 September 2013 01:44 AM, svaksha wrote: On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: +1. Btw, I founded and manage this list, but I see my actions deserve some explanation. As Sriram, said I do have a (somewhat extreme) sense of sarcastic and dry humour. I am also a PSF member from 2010 and also President of PSSI. So? If anything, you should be held to higher standards as a PSF member and PSSI president. I have my personal standards and I am not the type of person who likes to project stereotypes if you understand what I mean. I like to break stereotypes. Btw, if you have heard of the term anarchy, possibly that corresponds best to what I did. Maybe you aren't used to people in position resorting to anarchy, but I have often found it effective. See, people come from various backgrounds and beliefs, so the most civilized thing to do is to respect the other person's view points while asserting your freedom to differ instead of trying to ram down your thoughts down other's throats again and again. This is especially true in mailing lists. Being the last person to post in a thread doesn't mean you are essentially right. It possibly just means either people are shutting you out or they are treating the thread now as noise - or they are just indifferent. Am I supposed to thank you for your patronizing attempt to silence me because now you sound even more arrogant than before. I hope Anu's email was explanation enough. Yes it was to an extent and since the matter is settled, I am not sure what you are trying to do by sending these follow-ups. An if you were offended is not an apology. If is a conditional statement and a classic non-apology masquerading as an apology. Since you took the trouble of creating another repo: https://github.com/pythonhacker/chillpill , I am curious if this is another humorous version of STFU. Did you forget to add some python code? My isnt_that_odd function of ladies.py was specifically written to bring this point. Happy to see it hit the target. Anand, now you just
[BangPypers] Closing the thread (was Re: Fwd: Fw: Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 09 September 2013 12:28 AM, CsquaredinOmaha wrote: My apology is retracted. I am sorry to have asked questions you can't answer. And I am truly sorry you are so unpleasant in how you deal with anything that isn't exactly to your liking. Again, closing the thread. Thanks for the discussions. I am also responsible for starting this thread, but since the repository no longer exists and I have already commented on it, let us close this thread. If you want to discuss further about the topic I suggest changing the subject to something more appropriate for your specific post. - -- Regards, - --Anand - -- Software Architect/Consultant anandpil...@letterboxes.org Please note my updated email address anandpil...@letterboxes.org. Kindly update your address books. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSLVB1AAoJEMTxYeOp9eaovZcH/0u9zr9e3DcDZ/iUhy3kXTz6 igu/f8Ctszuy747I0ys6gdzW7+YT+CWfr9FQCPTOrUCzsLQj84zVxjCuWe3KWwrd Lao1nYLQ5m6/mZXoP5rkpaN95l72Qvn4N0oCMP6LJqQcMh2VuZM5TrUxg+twcOJt F98COny5zPJbJDrAwzKN6kwWryasgOeUTc80PwdeEjSsLVz6B7xga4c9lKRQBS9e tPpnbRT2KpIapS5+pt0UAl5+TBgot8qpYBeGRloPchaqdxz1Pr7230+AIEncdH1k TshE4vCm7wMgn/iYXtzUhb6zyoLmgozY8LkOFH1qKUFq8B2xa7BlflawHOINJxc= =kd4f -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
[BangPypers] Appropriate list conduct (was Re: Fwd: Fw: Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py)
Top posting since am making some rather broad comments rather than to specific lines in particular. This is a thread which has been bothering me since morning. For a number of reasons. None of them have to do with the very essence of the thread, since I never got to see the repository and the code to be able to make a judgement. So I took an apology offered as a sign of matter closed and hopefully things taking a turn for the better. * Yet more comments continued about specific people. I've always thought a good decorum is to attack issues, generally not people. Is that a reasonable guideline to follow ? I really do not think it was appropriate to continue with judgement about people once the underlying issues had been addressed. I don't know if I hold a minority position here. * Further comments continued about how to appropriately bring the matter to a closure. I thought the convergence and agreement on the core issues should've closed it. I am frankly not sure why anyone would've imagined why list readers would be remotely interested in further tactical matters such as existence or deletion of github repos and the necessity to close them out and the sequencing thereof. * I was further happy to note that the thread died down, but no, there was more drama to follow. It so seems a private message was forwarded to the mailing list. I speak for myself, but to me and under my individual code of conduct, this is outrageous behaviour. This concerns me. There are some serious privacy issues here (imo). eg: I was to respond to matters raised in this mailing list to someone else privately, I am no longer sure whats the community stand - can it be made public or will the community severely frown on such a behaviour. I am in doubt because list admins are further being encouraged stop this whatever this means in the context. This breaks every known decorum I know of and I wonder if this list has a different set of rules than what I think lists follow. I think there are some meta-issues about the mailing list that do need to be discussed. I don't know if this is the place to do it, so will leave it at these set of open questions to be worked through. This discussion could be moved to an appropriate forum if this is not the place. Dhananjay On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 12:08 AM, svaksha svak...@gmail.com wrote: Chris, STOP emailing me offlist. I made it very clear earlier that I didnt want to have any private conversations and have said everything on the list. List admins, can you do something to stop this? Thanks. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष -- Forwarded message -- From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 6:32 PM Subject: Fw: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py To: svak...@gmail.com svak...@gmail.com Svaksah, This was intended to be sent to you directly, not to the group list. My rule is praise in public, criticize in private. But I made a mistake in replying using this yahoo email interface. My apologies. - Forwarded Message - From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py That is what I thought - you have no answers and are simply interested in forcing others by your bullying. I took it off topic, directly to you, because I was honestly interested in your reply and didn't want your reply to be compelled to be less than honest. So my asking you a question you don't want to answer means you label it troll and wondering your position on equality of free speech is ad hominem . Your stance and attitude do your cause disservice. I don't believe you have even it any thought and perhaps don't even grasped my point. Which is unfortunate, it seems as so many liberals, that you are being loud without being thoughtful. From: svaksha svak...@gmail.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 12:49 PM Subject: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py Chris, was it easier to troll in private than on the public Bangpypers mailing list? If you're reduced to ad hominem and that too in private off-list messages, you're pretty clearly out of anything remotely relevant to say. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष -- Forwarded message -- From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py To: svak...@gmail.com svak...@gmail.com svaksha, Let me see if I can summarize your string of responses: You are offended by Anand making fun of a group that used .com instead of .org and he apparently was sarcastically bringing into question/criticism some parts of your stated mission. In the subsequent emails, you threatened to report
Re: [BangPypers] Appropriate list conduct (was Re: Fwd: Fw: Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py)
Thanks Dhananjay, Finally someone is asking something sensible among all the mud throwing that's going on. I have the same set of questions. I'm one of the junior most members here and the behaviors of all the senior members have really disappointed me for last two days. Specially because a lot of people who participated in that thread, hardly participates in any python related discussions in this list. I joined this group thinking it'd be a constructive source of discussions. But with all the childish blaming around (like we kids take a matter to the teacher or parents or shout to the the class rather than trying to solve it ourselves), even after an apology was posted long back, I have started to believe that I'm in the wrong place. I'm now waiting for the matter to close and all the related people to come to peace. If that doesn't happen, I'm better off the list. And from the behaviors I've seen in last two days, I'd rather not join any other groups in future, new or old. Thanks for everything. Dhananjay Nene dhananjay.n...@gmail.com wrote: Top posting since am making some rather broad comments rather than to specific lines in particular. This is a thread which has been bothering me since morning. For a number of reasons. None of them have to do with the very essence of the thread, since I never got to see the repository and the code to be able to make a judgement. So I took an apology offered as a sign of matter closed and hopefully things taking a turn for the better. * Yet more comments continued about specific people. I've always thought a good decorum is to attack issues, generally not people. Is that a reasonable guideline to follow ? I really do not think it was appropriate to continue with judgement about people once the underlying issues had been addressed. I don't know if I hold a minority position here. * Further comments continued about how to appropriately bring the matter to a closure. I thought the convergence and agreement on the core issues should've closed it. I am frankly not sure why anyone would've imagined why list readers would be remotely interested in further tactical matters such as existence or deletion of github repos and the necessity to close them out and the sequencing thereof. * I was further happy to note that the thread died down, but no, there was more drama to follow. It so seems a private message was forwarded to the mailing list. I speak for myself, but to me and under my individual code of conduct, this is outrageous behaviour. This concerns me. There are some serious privacy issues here (imo). eg: I was to respond to matters raised in this mailing list to someone else privately, I am no longer sure whats the community stand - can it be made public or will the community severely frown on such a behaviour. I am in doubt because list admins are further being encouraged stop this whatever this means in the context. This breaks every known decorum I know of and I wonder if this list has a different set of rules than what I think lists follow. I think there are some meta-issues about the mailing list that do need to be discussed. I don't know if this is the place to do it, so will leave it at these set of open questions to be worked through. This discussion could be moved to an appropriate forum if this is not the place. Dhananjay On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 12:08 AM, svaksha svak...@gmail.com wrote: Chris, STOP emailing me offlist. I made it very clear earlier that I didnt want to have any private conversations and have said everything on the list. List admins, can you do something to stop this? Thanks. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष -- Forwarded message -- From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 6:32 PM Subject: Fw: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py To: svak...@gmail.com svak...@gmail.com Svaksah, This was intended to be sent to you directly, not to the group list. My rule is praise in public, criticize in private. But I made a mistake in replying using this yahoo email interface. My apologies. - Forwarded Message - From: CsquaredinOmaha c2inom...@yahoo.com To: Bangalore Python Users Group - India bangpypers@python.org Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2013 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [BangPypers] Fwd: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py That is what I thought - you have no answers and are simply interested in forcing others by your bullying. I took it off topic, directly to you, because I was honestly interested in your reply and didn't want your reply to be compelled to be less than honest. So my asking you a question you don't want to answer means you label it troll and wondering your position on equality of free speech is ad hominem . Your stance and attitude do your cause disservice. I don't believe you have even it any thought and perhaps don't even grasped my point. Which is unfortunate, it seems as so many liberals
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On Sunday 08 September 2013 01:44 AM, svaksha wrote: On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: +1. Btw, I founded and manage this list, but I see my actions deserve some explanation. As Sriram, said I do have a (somewhat extreme) sense of sarcastic and dry humour. I am also a PSF member from 2010 and also President of PSSI. So? If anything, you should be held to higher standards as a PSF member and PSSI president. I have my personal standards and I am not the type of person who likes to project stereotypes if you understand what I mean. I like to break stereotypes. Btw, if you have heard of the term anarchy, possibly that corresponds best to what I did. Maybe you aren't used to people in position resorting to anarchy, but I have often found it effective. See, people come from various backgrounds and beliefs, so the most civilized thing to do is to respect the other person's view points while asserting your freedom to differ instead of trying to ram down your thoughts down other's throats again and again. This is especially true in mailing lists. Being the last person to post in a thread doesn't mean you are essentially right. It possibly just means either people are shutting you out or they are treating the thread now as noise - or they are just indifferent. curious. Maybe the OP of this thread who is an active member I may be the OP but I am not the founder, rather just a member who setup the mailman list as I disliked the meetup.com communication tool and dislike googlegroups even more. of PyLadies could explain it - just to educate all of us here and me in particlar. I hope Anu's email was explanation enough. Yes it was to an extent and since the matter is settled, I am not sure what you are trying to do by sending these follow-ups. My isnt_that_odd function of ladies.py was specifically written to bring this point. Happy to see it hit the target. Anand, now you just come across as self-entitled and arrogant. The if apology not withstanding. 2. Mission - It would be nice to educate us all in this list about the goals of a separate organization for ladies coding as apart from the general PSF umbrella. I am not misogynistic You have been a PSF member since 2010, so did you question the PSF when they gave a $10,000 grant to the Pyladies.com org? I'm curious because you want to know about the motives of a chapter. No, I wasn't aware of it at that point as I don't keep track of these things regularly. However since the local chapter had started and there were a few emails, I have been thinking more about it. Being a member of PSF doesn't mean you agree with everything and also take on everything you may not agree religiously. There are grey areas where you defer your considerations to a future date - let me say this was one of it. in anyway, but in general I don't personally agree with woman coding as a separate problem as opposed to people coding. I hope you raised these objections on the PSF mailing list too. I have been thinking more about it but as I see this is an issue more of politics than technology and society, I may not. But I might as well - I don't know at this point. -svaksha ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers - -- Regards, - --Anand - -- Software Architect/Consultant anandpil...@letterboxes.org Please note my updated email address anandpil...@letterboxes.org. Kindly update your address books. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSK5FSAAoJEMTxYeOp9eaoSMIIAK7Gcmm+hmQOujt33XjqOufG /AYsSmI3vSAGP+SfadyUgKm1LwfamZ5Bm3hwsAhQanRbE26aX8mxQdUZXSRkxGXR LE03+UH9ufeFuruu4CtlLe8DvbkYjwUXkjkQWVeysXeAxpgMjsJkAy7dyDHtYSqj ZZYgtoUYrwQMj6Efody68Ye2d/vzmxI9s5oopDeF89RR+X5YxWEYbUy7IbbtY5lM NR0xQIB2+LVsxnmWG2IS/8r2bOgajFq23QToZvPkNhuDBalfj7dfzne/sbA4ldgJ JbZsKwoYjo58lrBvSAPsGhVI16aUeIV1xwnw+Z+jE7sX21knb2IgEPA3ASqgCow= =w82S -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On Sunday 08 September 2013 01:44 AM, svaksha wrote: On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: +1. Btw, I founded and manage this list, but I see my actions deserve some explanation. As Sriram, said I do have a (somewhat extreme) sense of sarcastic and dry humour. I am also a PSF member from 2010 and also President of PSSI. So? If anything, you should be held to higher standards as a PSF member and PSSI president. I have my personal standards and I am not the type of person who likes to project stereotypes if you understand what I mean. I like to break stereotypes. Btw, if you have heard of the term anarchy, possibly that corresponds best to what I did. Maybe you aren't used to people in position resorting to anarchy, but I have often found it effective. See, people come from various backgrounds and beliefs, so the most civilized thing to do is to respect the other person's view points while asserting your freedom to differ instead of trying to ram down your thoughts down other's throats again and again. This is especially true in mailing lists. Being the last person to post in a thread doesn't mean you are essentially right. It possibly just means either people are shutting you out or they are treating the thread now as noise - or they are just indifferent. Am I supposed to thank you for your patronizing attempt to silence me because now you sound even more arrogant than before. I hope Anu's email was explanation enough. Yes it was to an extent and since the matter is settled, I am not sure what you are trying to do by sending these follow-ups. An if you were offended is not an apology. If is a conditional statement and a classic non-apology masquerading as an apology. Since you took the trouble of creating another repo: https://github.com/pythonhacker/chillpill , I am curious if this is another humorous version of STFU. Did you forget to add some python code? My isnt_that_odd function of ladies.py was specifically written to bring this point. Happy to see it hit the target. Anand, now you just come across as self-entitled and arrogant. The if apology not withstanding. 2. Mission - It would be nice to educate us all in this list about the goals of a separate organization for ladies coding as apart from the general PSF umbrella. I am not misogynistic You have been a PSF member since 2010, so did you question the PSF when they gave a $10,000 grant to the Pyladies.com org? I'm curious because you want to know about the motives of a chapter. No, I wasn't aware of it at that point as I don't keep track of these things regularly. However since the local chapter had started and there were a few emails, I have been thinking more about it. Being a member of PSF doesn't mean you agree with everything and also take on everything you may not agree religiously. There are grey areas where you defer your considerations to a future date - let me say this was one of it. Nobody asked you to agree with everything, I certainly didnt. The fact that Anu was able to start and get support for PyLadies-BLR from the PSF proves that she was able to kickstart it without your support. Right, you dont need every PSF member to agree on everything. in anyway, but in general I don't personally agree with woman coding as a separate problem as opposed to people coding. I hope you raised these objections on the PSF mailing list too. I have been thinking more about it but as I see this is an issue more of politics than technology and society, I may not. But I might as well - I don't know at this point. The next time you see anything related to PyLadies or women in Foss, feel free to air your sexist view that women's groups is an issue more of politics than technology and society on the PSF list. The zen of Python decrees that Errors should never pass silently. and Explicit is better than implicit. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 11:08 PM, svaksha svak...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: Also svaksha's mail did not mention what she found objectionable. Vinayak, did you miss this email? https://mail.python.org/pipermail/bangpypers/2013-September/009359.html My replies are as inline text as I dislike top-posts and try to avoid that as much as possible. Do scroll down to the part wher I have provided a github link and also took the trouble of pasting the code for your convenience. Nope. I was talking about the initial mail which lacked context. The initial mail did not have this excerpt. I posted the excerpt. I should have read the code completely. I didn't. Guilty as charged. And I fixed it in the next email. I am not defending Anand here (I hardly know him well) but it might be Contrary to your denial, your email admonishing me for raising it on this list and calling me a troll (and then trying to educate Anu on its definition) does come across as defending Anand even if you claim not to know him well. I think we are splitting hairs here. I don't know him and I am not taking sides and this is not a battle. I support more constructive methods of approaching these problems in the community. Thats it. YMMV. better to talk to him personally rather than name and shame IMHO. As far as Err.. Why do you think it is my job (or anyone else's) to email him personally? As I mentioned earlier, if you behave poorly in public, dont expect private education. #NotMyJob. You are entitled to your opinion and me to mine. But if people flame newbies / women / other under-represented groups unfairly (as you believe Anand did in this case), I believe there are better ways to tackle that IMHO. trolling is concerned, it is a matter of perspective (See the reference at the end of my last mail - I think the mail qualifies as trolling especially due to the lack of information and use of words like #EpicFail). I can also say that Anand was also trolling by posting the code. Vinayak, you can, but you didnt. Big difference that. I don't know what Anand's intentions were (and hence I reserve my opinion as mentioned in earlier mails), but your response (#epicfail) was pretty explicit. It would only be fair to hear out Anand as we have heard your response and not his. -- Vinayak ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On Saturday 07 September 2013 10:26 PM, Annapoornima Koppad wrote: More, I had a good mind to email this particular detail to every women mailing list that I am aware of. But then, it would portray all Bangalore men in bad light. Which is not my intention. More over, I am in touch with the PSF board itself, I had a good mind to send your repository link to the PSF board itself. Well, no need of it. @Anand Pillai, I am aware that you are on this list. Yes - from day one. I started it. There was not one single email from you asking me about the intentions of Pyladies Bangalore. You give me more reasons to never learn from guys like you. Either you explain here on public and tell everyone what was the intentions behind this, whom exactly where you targeting, or apologize for your behavior, irrespective of your intentions,I will let it go. Else its your choice, you choose. Yes I know. I could have sent an email asking about my doubts to PyLadies Bangalore but I have this wicked sense of doing things the round about way - in a tongue-in-cheek manner. Hence I set up the project to bring some attention to what I thought were points of interest, with some dollops of well meaning humor. Sorry if it offended you. The intention was nothing like that. I have all respect for your initiative and wish it well. I dont think this counts as trolling. Please read thoroughly before emailing. Not at all. Now that I have taken the project down, hope it is all well with you. I saw this thread very late - just before going to sleep and didn't want anyone else to further loose sleep over it - hence the explanation. If I had seen it earlier in the afternoon, I would have sent it much earlier. Wish you the very best. - -- Regards, - --Anand - -- Software Architect/Consultant anandpil...@letterboxes.org Please note my updated email address anandpil...@letterboxes.org. Kindly update your address books. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSK3bcAAoJEMTxYeOp9eao+gcH/3yMnwO0moww06Crr0eSDggu NqRc8ztNUCM8qQ9tyGSxMFkKvIxwBly4JHFNUbo84ZqhlDTa8EjevxbW6ppW+sqo VWdZaA0NWLRexC0ylMbIbPJh9kbPX+b1MDzPytU68dfBtHuxRKlJYffq+qeLOBxj Ml6fpmihfG9aXke6hDaJkJ2I+45msP7vvkeWpMpuiRdkVhzRLSX73jQTyYkY5W/Z +48fPxLixlImlbU6swZLSiy+4GNTnVmlSrunYIcaHeN3eO8qjr5wzARpuVAeBS/n D20YQuItkEQQNGITTx0aISlx7MCaKGgHDPEEt6C0BC4xl4lYeL8EKyEbkzW/S3g= =Y6+F -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: On Saturday 07 September 2013 10:26 PM, Annapoornima Koppad wrote: More, I had a good mind to email this particular detail to every women mailing list that I am aware of. But then, it would portray all Bangalore men in bad light. Which is not my intention. More over, I am in touch with the PSF board itself, I had a good mind to send your repository link to the PSF board itself. Well, no need of it. He has deleted the github repo, and now I know why. Yes I know. I could have sent an email asking about my doubts to PyLadies Bangalore but I have this wicked sense of doing things the round about way - in a tongue-in-cheek manner. Hence I set up the project to bring some attention to what I thought were points of interest, with some dollops of well meaning humor. Really? Let me politely call you out on this claim. 1. Your earlier July post referring to the twitter logo as an egg (for the clueless, the egg is an ancient fertility symbol) does not seem like humor. 2. The class class AmbiguousMissionError(Exception): and method (def get_purpose():raise AmbiguousMissionError, Mission unclear) are not humor either. Both smack of sexism because you never bothered to ask Anu, nor participated in the emails on the pyladies-blr list, where we were discussing about holding meetups (both hangouts and in-person meets) and I didnt see any response from you regarding holding a talk or workshop or sprint. IIRC, Anu had earlier emailed this list asking for data (re, female participation in the monthly meetups) and iirc, you told her to conduct a poll. Is being dismissive yet another attempt at humor? ...and I am beginning to wonder why? If anything Anu is getting a lot of support from upstream, the PSF approved her grant request, etc.. and you being a PSF member should know better than ascribe it to your sense of humor because there is nothing funny about the above. Sorry if it offended you. _if_? This is the classic non-apology apology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology (scroll down to the if apology). svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
All, Even though I am not particularly fond of Anand's deeds or comments, he has done a lot of work for the Python movement in his previous years. Which I believe should have added more sense of responsibility in his actions, given his experience. Which apparently has not happened. I suggest that he should be warned and let go. Since there was no major damage done. But I ask him to make his movement women inclusive. @Noufal, I do not agree that we have to have a private discussion with Anand. Svaksha already pointed them out. Adding one more reason to it, if you have not understand so far, Anand's tongue in cheek, twisted sense of humor. @Svaksha, a big thank you for bringing this to everyone's notice and for all the work that you have been doing so far. @others who supported, thanks ! Thanks and regards, Annapoornima On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Noufal Ibrahim nou...@nibrahim.net.inwrote: Pratham Gadre pratham.ga...@gmail.com writes: Audrey, We would like to hear your thoughts on the antics pulled by Anand Pillai (member of PSF). I think this is getting out of hand. There were mistakes made intentional or otherwise and this caused a lot of ill will. I'm not particularly fond of witch hunts. I don't think they're very effective and the damage done to the larger organisation when one of these things happen is often irreparable. The issue was raised on the mailing list and apologies were sent. If they are insufficient, it would be best to seek recitification by direct conversation rather than discussing it on a mailing list. Anand, Svashka and Annapoornima have all done a lot of work for the Python community in India. More than the work done by some of the others participating in this thread. While they have their differences, I don't think an internet drama is going to help matters in *any* way. I'm particularly put off by random people on the mailing list demanding that Anand be warned by the PSF or suggesting disciplinary action. People can make complaints and if necessary, action can be taken. I'd recommend (but don't expect) that the thread should be closed right now and further talk about this should be done between the parties involved rather than here on the mailing list. I'm off the thread. [...] -- Cordially, Noufal http://nibrahim.net.in ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
Hi Anand, Please find my answers inline. On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 11:50 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dear all, On Saturday 07 September 2013 11:20 PM, Sriram Narayanan wrote: I've sent a few emails to Svaksha - first asking what exactly was not right, and then followed up stating that I didn't see the source code itself. I don't know what Anand had in mind writing such code. Knowing him and his strong sense of sarcastic humor, I'd like to reserve judgement on his actions until he explains himself. I know that he does care about educating folks about Python and helping evangelize it. +1. Btw, I founded and manage this list, but I see my actions deserve some explanation. As Sriram, said I do have a (somewhat extreme) sense of sarcastic and dry humour. I am also a PSF member from 2010 and also President of PSSI. I find it ironic that a person of such high caliber should create a public repo to make fun of others initiative. Not only your actions deserve an explanation, you ought to be sorry for making fun of others efforts. I was going through the PyLadies initiative and I found what were a few interesting (intriguing) things about it. 1. Most FOSS/open source projects/initiatives have a .org (organization) TLD. Pyladies is a .com website. I find it curious. Maybe the OP of this thread who is an active member of PyLadies could explain it - just to educate all of us here and me in particlar. Since you are on the Pyladies blr list also, were there any legitimate questions raised regarding the intentions, goals of Pyladies Bangalore. Any email, any kind of communication to find out from your side, none? Please do not assume things without asking questions. If you had asked me over an email, I would have told you. Why create a separate repo, write code that is demotivating my well informed intentions? Since you are asking the questions now, I will try to be patient and answer them. But you need to apologize. I created the website using Godaddy's website builder. I have been trying to get other women to try and write website code using Python and Django frameworks. I have coded some of the blog code and am yet to set it up on godaddy domain. I spent money from my pocket to get other people to understand that I am serious about getting other women to code. One of my first ideas was to write Pyhton/Django code for the blog, make it a hacknight or a platform to gather women and start coding on it. Any reasons other than that, none! My isnt_that_odd function of ladies.py was specifically written to bring this point. Happy to see it hit the target So you do agree that your intention was to make fun of Pyladies Bangalore. I demand that you apologize for that. 2. Mission - It would be nice to educate us all in this list about the goals of a separate organization for ladies coding as apart from the general PSF umbrella. I am not misogynistic in anyway, but in general I don't personally agree with woman coding as a separate problem as opposed to people coding. Like I told you before, my intention was not to create a separate organization, I did ask questions regarding participation of women? Please read your answers for that. Btw, I am not a shady character though I stand indicted on being politically incorrect and I plead guilty as charged. No you are not shady, you just created a public repo to make fun of my efforts. I will stand for any woman who wants to learn to code, get back to Python jobs, etc. You made fun of all those women who are currently wanting to learn Python, and get back to jobs. There are efforts all over the world to increase participation of women in technology. By making fun of my effort, you are mocking all of those. The project was started (in a light way) to bring this into attention. Now that the conversation has started, let me bring shutters on it without releasing a 0.2. Anyway the unit tests were failing :) Light or not light, being a responsible member of PSF, you need to honor and/or uphold the code of conduct. I am politely requesting you to apologize. -- Ram On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:49 PM, svaksha svak...@gmail.com wrote: https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py, comes off as trying too hard to be cute. #EpicFail. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers - -- Regards, - --Anand - -- Software Architect/Consultant anandpil...@letterboxes.org Please note my updated email address anandpil...@letterboxes.org. Kindly update your address books. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
@Anand, I read this email after I typed the other response and sent it. Apologies accepted. Yes, it did offend me. Now since you are asking sorry, I will let it go. Thanks and regards, Annapoornima On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 12:26 AM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On Saturday 07 September 2013 10:26 PM, Annapoornima Koppad wrote: More, I had a good mind to email this particular detail to every women mailing list that I am aware of. But then, it would portray all Bangalore men in bad light. Which is not my intention. More over, I am in touch with the PSF board itself, I had a good mind to send your repository link to the PSF board itself. Well, no need of it. @Anand Pillai, I am aware that you are on this list. Yes - from day one. I started it. There was not one single email from you asking me about the intentions of Pyladies Bangalore. You give me more reasons to never learn from guys like you. Either you explain here on public and tell everyone what was the intentions behind this, whom exactly where you targeting, or apologize for your behavior, irrespective of your intentions,I will let it go. Else its your choice, you choose. Yes I know. I could have sent an email asking about my doubts to PyLadies Bangalore but I have this wicked sense of doing things the round about way - in a tongue-in-cheek manner. Hence I set up the project to bring some attention to what I thought were points of interest, with some dollops of well meaning humor. Sorry if it offended you. The intention was nothing like that. I have all respect for your initiative and wish it well. I dont think this counts as trolling. Please read thoroughly before emailing. Not at all. Now that I have taken the project down, hope it is all well with you. I saw this thread very late - just before going to sleep and didn't want anyone else to further loose sleep over it - hence the explanation. If I had seen it earlier in the afternoon, I would have sent it much earlier. Wish you the very best. - -- Regards, - --Anand - -- Software Architect/Consultant anandpil...@letterboxes.org Please note my updated email address anandpil...@letterboxes.org. Kindly update your address books. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSK3bcAAoJEMTxYeOp9eao+gcH/3yMnwO0moww06Crr0eSDggu NqRc8ztNUCM8qQ9tyGSxMFkKvIxwBly4JHFNUbo84ZqhlDTa8EjevxbW6ppW+sqo VWdZaA0NWLRexC0ylMbIbPJh9kbPX+b1MDzPytU68dfBtHuxRKlJYffq+qeLOBxj Ml6fpmihfG9aXke6hDaJkJ2I+45msP7vvkeWpMpuiRdkVhzRLSX73jQTyYkY5W/Z +48fPxLixlImlbU6swZLSiy+4GNTnVmlSrunYIcaHeN3eO8qjr5wzARpuVAeBS/n D20YQuItkEQQNGITTx0aISlx7MCaKGgHDPEEt6C0BC4xl4lYeL8EKyEbkzW/S3g= =Y6+F -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
As a PSF member I'm going to delurk right now. That's because as an admirer/supporter of the India Python community, I'm rather shocked and saddened by this thread. The PSF and pyladies have been affiliated for quite some time, arguably years at this point. In fact, the PSF has provided thousands, perhaps ten of thousands of dollars of support for PyLadies. In addition, PyLadies was co-founded by an Indian-American (Audrey Roy), so one can argue that the qualities that make up the group were influenced by her Indian heritage. The mission as described at http://www.pyladies.com/about/ but I'll summarize here: [pladies is]...a group of women developers worldwide who love the Python programming language. We write code by day or night. Some of us hack on Python projects on the side, while others work full-time on Python development. But it doesn't matter. We all just like writing Python code, and that's what brings us together. As he admits, Anand Pillai has never raised any issues about Pyladies in the PSF members mailing list or any other venues except for his now deleted GitHub repo, this thread, and a previous one. Like myself and other PSF members, there have been and are numerous opportunities and occasions to discuss PyLadies in official channels to which he has ready access. Rather than argue in one direction or another, I wonder how Anand (and everyone on this list) would feel if I created a similar github repo, this one in regards to the entire Python community of India. Imagine those same code structures in regards to India. Imagine if I used all of his emailed arguments in the defense of my code and humor. How would the readers of this list feel? Angry. Furious. Demanding of real apologies. Svashka is standing up for what's right. I'm behind what she says 100%. On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 10:49 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On Sunday 08 September 2013 01:44 AM, svaksha wrote: On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Anand B Pillai anandpil...@letterboxes.org wrote: +1. Btw, I founded and manage this list, but I see my actions deserve some explanation. As Sriram, said I do have a (somewhat extreme) sense of sarcastic and dry humour. I am also a PSF member from 2010 and also President of PSSI. So? If anything, you should be held to higher standards as a PSF member and PSSI president. I have my personal standards and I am not the type of person who likes to project stereotypes if you understand what I mean. I like to break stereotypes. Btw, if you have heard of the term anarchy, possibly that corresponds best to what I did. Maybe you aren't used to people in position resorting to anarchy, but I have often found it effective. See, people come from various backgrounds and beliefs, so the most civilized thing to do is to respect the other person's view points while asserting your freedom to differ instead of trying to ram down your thoughts down other's throats again and again. This is especially true in mailing lists. Being the last person to post in a thread doesn't mean you are essentially right. It possibly just means either people are shutting you out or they are treating the thread now as noise - or they are just indifferent. curious. Maybe the OP of this thread who is an active member I may be the OP but I am not the founder, rather just a member who setup the mailman list as I disliked the meetup.com communication tool and dislike googlegroups even more. of PyLadies could explain it - just to educate all of us here and me in particlar. I hope Anu's email was explanation enough. Yes it was to an extent and since the matter is settled, I am not sure what you are trying to do by sending these follow-ups. My isnt_that_odd function of ladies.py was specifically written to bring this point. Happy to see it hit the target. Anand, now you just come across as self-entitled and arrogant. The if apology not withstanding. 2. Mission - It would be nice to educate us all in this list about the goals of a separate organization for ladies coding as apart from the general PSF umbrella. I am not misogynistic You have been a PSF member since 2010, so did you question the PSF when they gave a $10,000 grant to the Pyladies.com org? I'm curious because you want to know about the motives of a chapter. No, I wasn't aware of it at that point as I don't keep track of these things regularly. However since the local chapter had started and there were a few emails, I have been thinking more about it. Being a member of PSF doesn't mean you agree with everything and also take on everything you may not agree religiously. There are grey areas where you defer your considerations to a future date - let me say this was one of it. in anyway, but in general I don't personally agree with woman coding as a separate problem as opposed to people
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
and me in particlar. I hope Anu's email was explanation enough. Yes it was to an extent and since the matter is settled, I am not sure what you are trying to do by sending these follow-ups. My isnt_that_odd function of ladies.py was specifically written to bring this point. Happy to see it hit the target. Anand, now you just come across as self-entitled and arrogant. The if apology not withstanding. 2. Mission - It would be nice to educate us all in this list about the goals of a separate organization for ladies coding as apart from the general PSF umbrella. I am not misogynistic You have been a PSF member since 2010, so did you question the PSF when they gave a $10,000 grant to the Pyladies.com org? I'm curious because you want to know about the motives of a chapter. No, I wasn't aware of it at that point as I don't keep track of these things regularly. However since the local chapter had started and there were a few emails, I have been thinking more about it. Being a member of PSF doesn't mean you agree with everything and also take on everything you may not agree religiously. There are grey areas where you defer your considerations to a future date - let me say this was one of it. in anyway, but in general I don't personally agree with woman coding as a separate problem as opposed to people coding. I hope you raised these objections on the PSF mailing list too. I have been thinking more about it but as I see this is an issue more of politics than technology and society, I may not. But I might as well - I don't know at this point. -svaksha ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers - -- Regards, - --Anand - -- Software Architect/Consultant anandpil...@letterboxes.org Please note my updated email address anandpil...@letterboxes.org. Kindly update your address books. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSK5FSAAoJEMTxYeOp9eaoSMIIAK7Gcmm+hmQOujt33XjqOufG /AYsSmI3vSAGP+SfadyUgKm1LwfamZ5Bm3hwsAhQanRbE26aX8mxQdUZXSRkxGXR LE03+UH9ufeFuruu4CtlLe8DvbkYjwUXkjkQWVeysXeAxpgMjsJkAy7dyDHtYSqj ZZYgtoUYrwQMj6Efody68Ye2d/vzmxI9s5oopDeF89RR+X5YxWEYbUy7IbbtY5lM NR0xQIB2+LVsxnmWG2IS/8r2bOgajFq23QToZvPkNhuDBalfj7dfzne/sbA4ldgJ JbZsKwoYjo58lrBvSAPsGhVI16aUeIV1xwnw+Z+jE7sX21knb2IgEPA3ASqgCow= =w82S -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers -- 'Knowledge is Power' Daniel Greenfeld Principal at Cartwheel Web; co-author of Two Scoops of Django cartwheelweb.com | pydanny.com | django.2scoops.org ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 1:27 AM, svaksha svak...@gmail.com wrote: Am reading all the responses, including Anand's apology, so I'll reply to those later. One at a time. And since you responded to my email, here goes: On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: Nope. I was talking about the initial mail which lacked context. There you go again. See below. I think we are splitting hairs here. I don't know him and I am not taking sides and this is not a battle. I support more constructive methods of approaching these problems in the community. Thats it. YMMV. Are we ? Lets see, its ok for you to split hairs and call me a troll but I cant respond? and when I do you choose to label that as splitting hairs? I find your responses a lot more patronizing and I'm happy to explain if you care to listen. The whole telling women what to do, how to handle things (despite her saying she does not like private conversation on social issues that ought to be public). There are plenty of sexist incidents in Foss and its not my job to go in private to educate anyone. You are entitled to your opinion and me to mine. Thanks. However, your repeated emails on this thread came across as stuffing your opinions down my throat. I dont appreciate that and find it annoying as I dislike having private conversations on bad behaviour, unless you are a person I trust and respect - Yes, I've had many private conversations with hackers I've never met, just interacted online. This is just not one of those. But if people flame newbies / women / other under-represented groups unfairly (as you believe Anand did in this case), I believe there are better ways to tackle that IMHO. ...and thusfar, your suggestion has been along the lines of go solve this problem in private. I've been around the FOSS block far too long to know it does not work. Never has. So, I'm curious to know why you expect women in Foss to solve social problems in Foss communities in private? Unrelated to this thread, do you realise that it can easily become a he said-she said issue which does not help at all. Been there, done that; and blogged about it too: http://svaksha.com/category/WOMEN/SexismInSTEM I don't know what Anand's intentions were (and hence I reserve my opinion as mentioned in earlier mails), but your response (#epicfail) was pretty explicit. Vinayak, there you go, _yet_ again - you choose to reserve your opinions on his intent, but cannot stop harping or splitting hairs over my #EpicFail hashtag, or my first mail that lacked context, was pretty explicit (which contradicts your lacked context claim). Do you want me to explain more or do you not honestly see the different (read, unequal) standards here? A pertinent read on tone policing: http://geekfeminism.org/2013/09/05/tone-policing-a-tool-for-protecting-male-power/ Btw, Vinayak, you are not alone as Sriram also wrote to me offlist - he has said so on the list too, but forgot to mention the full contents, and I paraphrase - ... that I'm trying to publicly shame Anand Pillai, then questioned me about what I hope to achieve, and ofcourse the same old you should talk to him in private. Having heard all this in this thread, I didnt bother to reply. Since Vid has gone ahead and paraphrased on my behalf, though only part of the mails I'd sent to her: Here's what I wrote to Svaksha when I first saw the I love ladies.py on the github page. I hadn't thought about checking the init files: = begin quote === I don't know what exactly is offensive - seems like some lame non-constructive commit by him. Seems like trying to publicly shame Anand Pillai. What exactly do you want to achieve here ? It'd have been more constructive if you were to write to him and ask him to explain himself, and then provided feedback as well as something useful for him to do. === end quote === Having seen similar names like FactoryGirl, etc in the Ruby world, and even the phrases like Object Mother to refer to classes that supply objects, I though Anand was going to write some new library. Later, when I saw the quoting of the source code, I realized that I should have checked the python files themselves (after all, Anand is a Python programmer). I then wrote privately to her: === begin quote === Heh, after reading other mails on this thread, I realized that I had only seen the repo name and the readme message, and not the contents of the various _init_ files. Dunno what to make of his commits! -- Ram === end quote == I then wrote to the mailing list that I'd reserve judgement until he clarified what he intended to convey. So, I wasn't in any way trying to give the same old treatment that Svaksha has felt that I've given this topic. In fact, I'd rather talk to her about this since I have always supported her efforts to get more women to participate actively in IT, and I believe I have some sort of rapport to draw upon
Re: [BangPypers] https://github.com/pythonhacker/ladies.py
Am reading all the responses, including Anand's apology, so I'll reply to those later. One at a time. And since you responded to my email, here goes: On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: Nope. I was talking about the initial mail which lacked context. There you go again. See below. I think we are splitting hairs here. I don't know him and I am not taking sides and this is not a battle. I support more constructive methods of approaching these problems in the community. Thats it. YMMV. Are we ? Lets see, its ok for you to split hairs and call me a troll but I cant respond? and when I do you choose to label that as splitting hairs? I find your responses a lot more patronizing and I'm happy to explain if you care to listen. The whole telling women what to do, how to handle things (despite her saying she does not like private conversation on social issues that ought to be public). There are plenty of sexist incidents in Foss and its not my job to go in private to educate anyone. You are entitled to your opinion and me to mine. Thanks. However, your repeated emails on this thread came across as stuffing your opinions down my throat. I dont appreciate that and find it annoying as I dislike having private conversations on bad behaviour, unless you are a person I trust and respect - Yes, I've had many private conversations with hackers I've never met, just interacted online. This is just not one of those. But if people flame newbies / women / other under-represented groups unfairly (as you believe Anand did in this case), I believe there are better ways to tackle that IMHO. ...and thusfar, your suggestion has been along the lines of go solve this problem in private. I've been around the FOSS block far too long to know it does not work. Never has. So, I'm curious to know why you expect women in Foss to solve social problems in Foss communities in private? Unrelated to this thread, do you realise that it can easily become a he said-she said issue which does not help at all. Been there, done that; and blogged about it too: http://svaksha.com/category/WOMEN/SexismInSTEM I don't know what Anand's intentions were (and hence I reserve my opinion as mentioned in earlier mails), but your response (#epicfail) was pretty explicit. Vinayak, there you go, _yet_ again - you choose to reserve your opinions on his intent, but cannot stop harping or splitting hairs over my #EpicFail hashtag, or my first mail that lacked context, was pretty explicit (which contradicts your lacked context claim). Do you want me to explain more or do you not honestly see the different (read, unequal) standards here? A pertinent read on tone policing: http://geekfeminism.org/2013/09/05/tone-policing-a-tool-for-protecting-male-power/ Btw, Vinayak, you are not alone as Sriram also wrote to me offlist - he has said so on the list too, but forgot to mention the full contents, and I paraphrase - ... that I'm trying to publicly shame Anand Pillai, then questioned me about what I hope to achieve, and ofcourse the same old you should talk to him in private. Having heard all this in this thread, I didnt bother to reply. It would only be fair to hear out Anand as we have heard your response and not his. Anand's email came as I was writing this response, so I'll reply separately. svaksha ॥ स्वक्ष ___ BangPypers mailing list BangPypers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/bangpypers
