In a message dated 7/6/2003 10:08:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I remember seeing Ryan in his later Houston years.
IIRC, he had one losing
season (well maybe it was a 15-14 season) when he
led the league in ERA.
He
I did. I think that was ridiculous. If you think
Sandy Koufax was the best pitcher of all time, you're
simply wrong. There is no serious argument for this.
If you think he was the most dominant pitcher on a
per-game basis you're also wrong, but at least you
have a case and we can talk
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well Koufax, Bob, a pretty knowledgeable baseball guy,
said that Pedro was better than he was. That's worth
something too, don't you think?
He's just being modest. But yes I would take that very seriously.
Bob, I have some idea of what a phenomenally
accomplished
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well Koufax, Bob, a pretty knowledgeable baseball guy,
said that Pedro was better than he was. That's worth
something too, don't you think?
He's just being modest. But yes I would take that very seriously.
Bob, I have some idea of what a phenomenally
accomplished
If we use your metrics - that is, just against the
other players of his time, ignoring park effects,
difficulty, everything - then why isn't Gibson the
best ever? His 1968 season was better than anything
Koufax ever did, phenomenal though Koufax was.
It was the best season ever in my
If we use your metrics - that is, just against the
other players of his time, ignoring park effects,
difficulty, everything - then why isn't Gibson the
best ever? His 1968 season was better than anything
Koufax ever did, phenomenal though Koufax was.
It was the best season ever in my
--- Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yo G, do you know WHY Koufax didn't win the Cy
Young
award four years in a
row? Be honest now, I didn't until a few minutes
ago.
I really wish Bob would quit disagreeing with you. I
mean, Pedro pitches
against the best players, from the worst
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm curious as to peoples opinion on questec, the
system baseball is now
using to evaluate the umpire's strike calling. Info
at
http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2003/0605/1563649.html
Personally, I'm very happy to see them doing
something about the
Kevin Tarr wrote:
Kevin T. - VRWC
I'll take Walter Johnson for $800 Alex.
Hey, on Jeopardy! yesterday, there was, in fact, a category Johnson.
I knew a lot of them. I knew one or two that the contestants at least
weren't confident enough to buzz in on
But Walter wasn't one of them. :)
At 07:17 AM 7/12/2003 -0700, you wrote:
--- Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yo G, do you know WHY Koufax didn't win the Cy
Young
award four years in a
row? Be honest now, I didn't until a few minutes
ago.
I really wish Bob would quit disagreeing with you. I
mean, Pedro pitches
against
At 07:23 AM 7/12/2003 -0700, you wrote:
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm curious as to peoples opinion on questec, the
system baseball is now
using to evaluate the umpire's strike calling. Info
at
http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2003/0605/1563649.html
Personally, I'm very happy to
--- Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Your best ever pitcher hasn't won the Cy Young award
four times or three in
a row. Not saying that as a dig, you may have said
that you aren't using it
as a measuring stick. He was second in the voting in
1998, but it was
unanimous for Clemens.
On Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 08:27 pm, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
But, Kevin, as I've said several times, I don't think
he's the best ever pitcher, except on a game-for-game
basis. If I had to pick a pitcher to win _one game_,
I'd pick him - more specifically, the 1999 version of
him. If I had to
In a message dated 7/12/2003 2:27:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Adjusted for era, Pedro's numbers at his peak are just
flat-out better. A modern's bias would be if the two
were roughly equal, and I was saying _that_ showed
that Pedro was better. But that is not, in
---Original Message---
From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If it's no-hitters you want, Ryan is better.
I'll admit that I don't know more than the first thing about Sandy Kofax, but I feel
compelled to point out that the above argument is specious - in my eyes, anyways. If
arguing
---Original Message---
From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If you think Sandy Koufax was the best pitcher of all time, you're simply wrong.
There is no serious argument for this.
If you think he was the most dominant pitcher on a
per-game basis you're also wrong, but at least you
--- John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thus, the mere fact that Sandy Kofax isn't tops in
strikeouts - (and the fact that you didn't really
follow that up with other signgle-measures of
greatness) tells me nothing about whether or not
Kofax merits the title of greatest pitcher of
all
---Original Message---
From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If a running back ran for 2500 yards his rookie
season and never played another game, would you say he
was the greatest running back of all time, or one who
had a really great season?
Actually, a guy who somewhat matches
--- John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Actually, a guy who somewhat matches that profile is
Terrell Davis - who was one of three backs to ever
run for 2000+ yards in a season, and had several
very good years before getting injured.
I think that Terrell Davis belongs in the pantheon
In a message dated 7/11/2003 4:34:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
If you think he was the most dominant pitcher on a
per-game basis you're also wrong, but at least you
have a case and we can talk about it. Arguing that he
was better than Seaver or Clemens is foolish.
In a message dated 7/11/2003 9:19:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
John, that's my point. What is the purpose of a
pitcher? It's to keep runs off the board. That's it.
A pitcher has only one function on a team.
No-hitters, strikeouts, stuff, they're all
In a message dated 7/11/2003 9:28:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Furthermore, injuries aren't a random or infrequent
factor for pitchers. They are a non-random, frequent
factor. Power pitchers are less likely to get injured
that soft-tossers (Koufax, of course, was
In a message dated 7/11/2003 11:07:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Yeah, that's my entire point. He's a fine running
back. But it takes more than that to be the best ever.
Well how about Jim Brown. Walked away from football still in his prime after several
dominant
In a message dated 7/11/2003 11:07:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Yeah, that's my entire point. He's a fine running
back. But it takes more than that to be the best ever.
Well how about Jim Brown. Walked away from football still in his prime after several
dominant
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
By the way I
thing Tom Seaver a pretty knowledgable baseball guy
who had some knowledge of Koufax growing up in
California has said he thinks Koufax was the best
pitcher ever.
Well Koufax, Bob, a pretty knowledgeable baseball guy,
said that Pedro was better than
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
He didn't pitch long enough because he pitched in a
different era. He was every bit the physical
specimen that Clemens is. For 5 years consecutive
years he was the best in the game. No one else can
make that claim.
Are you sure? Maddux won four consecutive Cy
At 06:33 PM 7/11/2003 -0700, you wrote:
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
He didn't pitch long enough because he pitched in a
different era. He was every bit the physical
specimen that Clemens is. For 5 years consecutive
years he was the best in the game. No one else can
make that claim.
Are you
I'm curious as to peoples opinion on questec, the system baseball is now
using to evaluate the umpire's strike calling. Info at
http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2003/0605/1563649.html
Personally, I'm very happy to see them doing something about the
inconsistency of the zone. I'm not completely sold
Except that Koufax pitched in Dodger Stadium, off a
20 mound (the mound in Dodger Stadium was illegally
high) in an era when the _batting title winner_ hit
.301 in the American League, and the HR high was in
the low 30s, IIRC. Pedro puts up ERAs similar to
Koufax's when the batting title
Koufax continued.
Koufax pitched 397 games; he completed 137 and had 40 shut outs (11 in 63 got that 11
shutouts in one year, 7 in 64 and 8 in 65).
Koufax pitched 7 ws games. He was 4 and 3 (4 and 2 from 63 on). His ERA was .97. In
63 the Dodgers swept the Yankess a team that won the AL by
part 3
Koufax was big and strong. He had enormous powerful hands. He could hold 6 balls in
one hand. He threw two pitches and never varied his release point. He threw fast ball
that batters swore sped up. This is of course impossible but what it did not do is
slow down (all others do). His
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
These numbers demonstate absolute dominance. The
counter arguement that he did this in a week hitting
era does not prove that he would not have done it in
any era. After all ERA is a statistic that has a
lower theoretical limit (it cannot be less than 0)
and a
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
As to Gautam's list. He lists Pedro, Maddux (who has
really done well in post season) Clemons and Seaver.
Thus the 4 greatest picthers have all pitched in the
past 20 years and three are active simultaneously.
What are the odds of that? Baseball has been around
My point is that the biography does not idolize him as a person. The author
idolizes him as an athlete and appreciates him as a man. But I would make
the point that Kofax seems unique in his maintaining his dignity and his
refusal to cash in on his celebrity. But rather then argue this I
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No baseball for a while so I thought I might stir
the pot. Just finished Jane Leavy's excellent if
reverential bio. It provides some insight into this
extrarordinarly private man. She dispells notions
that he did not really like baseball, or that he was
aloof
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No baseball for a while so I thought I might stir
the pot. Just finished Jane Leavy's excellent if
reverential bio. It provides some insight into this
extrarordinarly private man. She dispells notions
that he did not really like baseball, or that
- Original Message -
From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Sandy Kofax
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No baseball for a while so I thought I might stir
the pot. Just
How about Juan Marichal?
--
Tom Beck
www.prydonians.org
www.mercerjewishsingles.org
I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. -
Dr Jerry Pournelle
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
In a message dated 7/5/2003 6:31:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, TomFODW writes:
There is an unfortunate tendency among some of Koufax's admirers, especially those
who have known him, to elevate him into some kind of human paragon. Granted that he
appears to be a highly decent, respectful,
But your description of him is precisely one he would agree to. That is the person
that comes through in the book. He disavows anything more. When he did not pitch on
Yom Kippur this was not a political act and not really a religous one (Kofax is the
prototypical non-observant Jew. And yet his
Robert Seeberger wrote:
- Original Message -
From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Sandy Kofax
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
Except that Koufax pitched in Dodger Stadium, off a
20 mound
In a message dated 7/6/2003 8:15:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, TomFODW writes:
I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that Koufax himself would not
go along with others' overestimation of him? I certainly agree with you on that,
since that was my unstated point: that it was his
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What about Bob Gibson?
Doug
A good addition to the list. Not sure exactly where I
would put him. Not as good as Clemens or Seaver, but
up there with the others, definitely.
Since I _know_ someone is going to mention Nolan Ryan
- not a chance.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How about Juan Marichal?
Tom Beck
An excellent pitcher, but I don't think you could
really say that he was up there with Seaver or
Clemens. I don't have a copy of the new Historical
Baseball Abstract handy, but I'm fairly confident that
James wouldn't even have
- Original Message -
From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: Sandy Kofax
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What about Bob Gibson?
Doug
A good addition to the list. Not sure
--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I remember seeing Ryan in his later Houston years.
IIRC, he had one losing
season (well maybe it was a 15-14 season) when he
led the league in ERA.
He would lose a number of 2-1 and 1-0 ballgames. It
was amazing.
Dan M.
I'm not denying he was a
No baseball for a while so I thought I might stir the pot. Just finished Jane Leavy's
excellent if reverential bio. It provides some insight into this extrarordinarly
private man. She dispells notions that he did not really like baseball, or that he was
aloof from teamates. But the main thing
No baseball for a while so I thought I might stir the pot. Just finished Jane Leavy's
excellent if reverential bio.
There is an unfortunate tendency among some of Koufax's admirers, especially those who
have known him, to elevate him into some kind of human paragon. Granted that he
appears
48 matches
Mail list logo
