Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Andreas Peters]

Sounds good, thanks Vinod. :-)

Andreas

Am 15.04.21 um 00:49 schrieb Vinod Kone:
> To circle back here, the vote to install a new PMC chair has passed and 
the
> request for the same is sent to the ASF Board. It will become official once
> the board meets and passes the resolution. I am expecting this to happen
> around the end of the month.
> 
> On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 9:33 AM Andreas Peters  wrote:
> 
>> Thanks Vinod. :-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 09.04.21 um 01:55 schrieb Vinod Kone:
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> Thanks for further responses and strong interest from a few folks in
>>> keeping the project going!
>>>
>>> I also had a chance to talk to some ASF members and it sounds like the
>> ASF
>>> preferred option forward in this situation is to keep the project going
>> in
>>> ASF.
>>>
>>> Given all the above, I'm cancelling this vote thread.
>>>
>>> I will start another thread to elect a new PMC chair and let them handle
>>> adding new PMC members / committers.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 4:30 PM Samuel Marks  wrote:
>>>
 In reference to new responses:
 0. If you need a 501c3 equivalent to hold the copyright, I run a charity
 concentrating on facilitating large-scale screening programmes and
>> intend
 to use Mesos to handle multiple clusters on the same set of servers (
 https://sydneyscientific.org), and would be happy to be that
>> placeholder
 and potentially fund further R
 1. On the moving CI side I remember years ago adding an issue about OOM
>> for
 building it on a small AWS instance and it being closed as wontfix.
 Hopefully time is spent on refactoring and modularity to get over this,
 making moving to anyones CI viable
 2. The Apache brand alone makes Mesos more attractive; so would hate 
to
 lose it

 Just my 2¢

 Samuel Marks
 Charity | consultancy | open-source | LinkedIn

 On Fri, 9 Apr 2021, 5:02 am Andreas Peters, 
 wrote:

>> Hopefully the other people who said they
>> were interested, like the guys from Criteo, Andreas, Javi, etc would
>> help too.
>
> I will and I'm sure the others too. I already try to help with the
> tickets in jira. Thanks to Benjamin Mahler who told me that it's ok 
if
>> I
> do it.
>
> Andreas
>
>

>>>
>>
>>
> 

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Re: [BULK]Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Thomas Langé]

Thanks for the update and this good news Vinod!

Thomas

From: Vinod Kone 
Sent: Thursday, 15 April 2021 00:49
To: Andreas Peters 
Cc: dev 
Subject: [BULK]Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

To circle back here, the vote to install a new PMC chair has passed and the
request for the same is sent to the ASF Board. It will become official once
the board meets and passes the resolution. I am expecting this to happen
around the end of the month.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 9:33 AM Andreas Peters  wrote:

> Thanks Vinod. :-)
>
>
>
>
> Am 09.04.21 um 01:55 schrieb Vinod Kone:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > Thanks for further responses and strong interest from a few folks in
> > keeping the project going!
> >
> > I also had a chance to talk to some ASF members and it sounds like the
> ASF
> > preferred option forward in this situation is to keep the project going
> in
> > ASF.
> >
> > Given all the above, I'm cancelling this vote thread.
> >
> > I will start another thread to elect a new PMC chair and let them handle
> > adding new PMC members / committers.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 4:30 PM Samuel Marks  wrote:
> >
> >> In reference to new responses:
> >> 0. If you need a 501c3 equivalent to hold the copyright, I run a charity
> >> concentrating on facilitating large-scale screening programmes and
> intend
> >> to use Mesos to handle multiple clusters on the same set of servers (
> >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsydneyscientific.org%2Fdata=04%7C01%7Ct.lange%40criteo.com%7C4dfba3e62e304cfb4f3f08d8ff97a926%7C2a35d8fd574d48e3927c8c398e225a01%7C1%7C0%7C637540374136343517%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=o173jekWwf6DyanTPDvh9UlkT2gWIfSKpfNlxneULDE%3Dreserved=0),
> >>  and would be happy to be that
> placeholder
> >> and potentially fund further R
> >> 1. On the moving CI side I remember years ago adding an issue about OOM
> for
> >> building it on a small AWS instance and it being closed as wontfix.
> >> Hopefully time is spent on refactoring and modularity to get over this,
> >> making moving to anyones CI viable
> >> 2. The Apache brand alone makes Mesos more attractive; so would hate to
> >> lose it
> >>
> >> Just my 2¢
> >>
> >> Samuel Marks
> >> Charity | consultancy | open-source | LinkedIn
> >>
> >> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021, 5:02 am Andreas Peters, 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Hopefully the other people who said they
> >>>> were interested, like the guys from Criteo, Andreas, Javi, etc would
> >>>> help too.
> >>>
> >>> I will and I'm sure the others too. I already try to help with the
> >>> tickets in jira. Thanks to Benjamin Mahler who told me that it's ok if
> I
> >>> do it.
> >>>
> >>> Andreas
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Vinod Kone]

To circle back here, the vote to install a new PMC chair has passed and the
request for the same is sent to the ASF Board. It will become official once
the board meets and passes the resolution. I am expecting this to happen
around the end of the month.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 9:33 AM Andreas Peters  wrote:

> Thanks Vinod. :-)
>
>
>
>
> Am 09.04.21 um 01:55 schrieb Vinod Kone:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > Thanks for further responses and strong interest from a few folks in
> > keeping the project going!
> >
> > I also had a chance to talk to some ASF members and it sounds like the
> ASF
> > preferred option forward in this situation is to keep the project going
> in
> > ASF.
> >
> > Given all the above, I'm cancelling this vote thread.
> >
> > I will start another thread to elect a new PMC chair and let them handle
> > adding new PMC members / committers.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 4:30 PM Samuel Marks  wrote:
> >
> >> In reference to new responses:
> >> 0. If you need a 501c3 equivalent to hold the copyright, I run a charity
> >> concentrating on facilitating large-scale screening programmes and
> intend
> >> to use Mesos to handle multiple clusters on the same set of servers (
> >> https://sydneyscientific.org), and would be happy to be that
> placeholder
> >> and potentially fund further R
> >> 1. On the moving CI side I remember years ago adding an issue about OOM
> for
> >> building it on a small AWS instance and it being closed as wontfix.
> >> Hopefully time is spent on refactoring and modularity to get over this,
> >> making moving to anyones CI viable
> >> 2. The Apache brand alone makes Mesos more attractive; so would hate to
> >> lose it
> >>
> >> Just my 2¢
> >>
> >> Samuel Marks
> >> Charity | consultancy | open-source | LinkedIn
> >>
> >> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021, 5:02 am Andreas Peters, 
> >> wrote:
> >>
>  Hopefully the other people who said they
>  were interested, like the guys from Criteo, Andreas, Javi, etc would
>  help too.
> >>>
> >>> I will and I'm sure the others too. I already try to help with the
> >>> tickets in jira. Thanks to Benjamin Mahler who told me that it's ok if
> I
> >>> do it.
> >>>
> >>> Andreas
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Andreas Peters]

Thanks Vinod. :-)




Am 09.04.21 um 01:55 schrieb Vinod Kone:
> Hi folks,
> 
> Thanks for further responses and strong interest from a few folks in
> keeping the project going!
> 
> I also had a chance to talk to some ASF members and it sounds like the ASF
> preferred option forward in this situation is to keep the project going 
in
> ASF.
> 
> Given all the above, I'm cancelling this vote thread.
> 
> I will start another thread to elect a new PMC chair and let them handle
> adding new PMC members / committers.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 4:30 PM Samuel Marks  wrote:
> 
>> In reference to new responses:
>> 0. If you need a 501c3 equivalent to hold the copyright, I run a charity
>> concentrating on facilitating large-scale screening programmes and intend
>> to use Mesos to handle multiple clusters on the same set of servers (
>> https://sydneyscientific.org), and would be happy to be that placeholder
>> and potentially fund further R
>> 1. On the moving CI side I remember years ago adding an issue about OOM for
>> building it on a small AWS instance and it being closed as wontfix.
>> Hopefully time is spent on refactoring and modularity to get over this,
>> making moving to anyones CI viable
>> 2. The Apache brand alone makes Mesos more attractive; so would hate to
>> lose it
>>
>> Just my 2¢
>>
>> Samuel Marks
>> Charity | consultancy | open-source | LinkedIn
>>
>> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021, 5:02 am Andreas Peters, 
>> wrote:
>>
 Hopefully the other people who said they
 were interested, like the guys from Criteo, Andreas, Javi, etc would
 help too.
>>>
>>> I will and I'm sure the others too. I already try to help with the
>>> tickets in jira. Thanks to Benjamin Mahler who told me that it's ok if I
>>> do it.
>>>
>>> Andreas
>>>
>>>
>>
> 



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Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Vinod Kone]

Hi folks,

Thanks for further responses and strong interest from a few folks in
keeping the project going!

I also had a chance to talk to some ASF members and it sounds like the ASF
preferred option forward in this situation is to keep the project going in
ASF.

Given all the above, I'm cancelling this vote thread.

I will start another thread to elect a new PMC chair and let them handle
adding new PMC members / committers.

Thanks,


On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 4:30 PM Samuel Marks  wrote:

> In reference to new responses:
> 0. If you need a 501c3 equivalent to hold the copyright, I run a charity
> concentrating on facilitating large-scale screening programmes and intend
> to use Mesos to handle multiple clusters on the same set of servers (
> https://sydneyscientific.org), and would be happy to be that placeholder
> and potentially fund further R
> 1. On the moving CI side I remember years ago adding an issue about OOM for
> building it on a small AWS instance and it being closed as wontfix.
> Hopefully time is spent on refactoring and modularity to get over this,
> making moving to anyones CI viable
> 2. The Apache brand alone makes Mesos more attractive; so would hate to
> lose it
>
> Just my 2¢
>
> Samuel Marks
> Charity | consultancy | open-source | LinkedIn
>
> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021, 5:02 am Andreas Peters, 
> wrote:
>
> > > Hopefully the other people who said they
> > > were interested, like the guys from Criteo, Andreas, Javi, etc would
> > > help too.
> >
> > I will and I'm sure the others too. I already try to help with the
> > tickets in jira. Thanks to Benjamin Mahler who told me that it's ok if I
> > do it.
> >
> > Andreas
> >
> >
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Samuel Marks]

In reference to new responses:
0. If you need a 501c3 equivalent to hold the copyright, I run a charity
concentrating on facilitating large-scale screening programmes and intend
to use Mesos to handle multiple clusters on the same set of servers (
https://sydneyscientific.org), and would be happy to be that placeholder
and potentially fund further R
1. On the moving CI side I remember years ago adding an issue about OOM for
building it on a small AWS instance and it being closed as wontfix.
Hopefully time is spent on refactoring and modularity to get over this,
making moving to anyones CI viable
2. The Apache brand alone makes Mesos more attractive; so would hate to
lose it

Just my 2¢

Samuel Marks
Charity | consultancy | open-source | LinkedIn

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021, 5:02 am Andreas Peters,  wrote:

> > Hopefully the other people who said they
> > were interested, like the guys from Criteo, Andreas, Javi, etc would
> > help too.
>
> I will and I'm sure the others too. I already try to help with the
> tickets in jira. Thanks to Benjamin Mahler who told me that it's ok if I
> do it.
>
> Andreas
>
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Andreas Peters]

> Hopefully the other people who said they
> were interested, like the guys from Criteo, Andreas, Javi, etc would
> help too.

I will and I'm sure the others too. I already try to help with the
tickets in jira. Thanks to Benjamin Mahler who told me that it's ok if I
do it.

Andreas



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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Charles-François Natali]

Hey Andrei,

You make some very good points.

> I do not see how the approach "let's move the project out of ASF and
> lower the bar there" benefits the _future_ of the project, compared to
> lowering the committer bar while remaining in ASF.
> (I will reconsider my vote if someone explains how the latter is less
> harmful to the project than the former)

I guess some committers could prefer this approach if they are
attached to the brand name/history of the Mesos project, and fear that
this would tarnish the legacy if lowering the bar within the ASF
causes the project quality to go down.
That's a legitimate concern, but given that the alternative risks to
effectively kill the project - especially with the legal
considerations that a fork would apparently entail - I think it's
worth trying to keep it in the ASF.
The main reason I voted in favor to moving it to the Attic was so that
interested people could actually get a chance to contribute, because
as-is, it just seems really difficult - I actually made some
contributions and want to contribute more but the absence of support
when trying to e.g. close old tickets or get MRs reviewed turned me
off.

> To continue any development (including maintenance), the entry bar for
> the people allowed to merge code and participate in project decisions
> has to be lowered, this way or another.

Agreed.

FWIW, I'm a long-time committer for the reference Python
implementation (CPython), although I haven't contributed in a while.
And I remember a long time ago we had some discussions on the bar to
accept new contributors and committers, and at the time I was on the
side of being conservative and keeping the bar high. But some people
said that it was much better for the long-term viability of the
project to actually be fairly liberal and quickly grant bug tracker
permissions, and even commit permissions after a few contributions.
And they were right: it's a great way to get new people involved.
Waiting a few years to give commit rights to someone doesn't make
sense given how quickly people can change jobs, projects etc, so
having a high bar might just turn away some people would might
otherwise have become involved. And it doesn't have to affect the
quality as long as a core group of people are willing to take time to
mentor and review junior committers.
So my suggestion would be to be more liberal in granting people bug
tracker permissions and commit permissions - but of course some
minimum mentoring and code reviews would still be needed.

>  - I'm ready to provide technical mentoring (and, hopefully,
> reasonably quick reviews) in areas I'm familiar with (this,
> unfortunately, excludes most of the inner workings of the agent, for
> example)
>  - I can provide mentoring and code reviews in areas I'm less familiar
> with, but do not expect quick feedback from me there, as meaningfully
> reviewing an unfamiliar code can be 2 to 100 times slower

If you - and I assume Qian since he mentioned still being interested
and even willing to step up as chair - are willing to do some minimum
mentoring and code reviews then that would be great - I'd be happy to
submit some more MRs I want to work on, go through the tracker and
follow up/close tickets etc. Hopefully the other people who said they
were interested, like the guys from Criteo, Andreas, Javi, etc would
help too.

Also, to answer your questions, I don't really have a long-term plan
either - all I can tell you is that at work we're very happy with
Mesos: it fits exactly our needs, is rock-solid, scales perfectly well
and requires very little maintenance. It was actually the only product
fitting our criterias when we did a survey, and AFAICT this still
holds today. We have absolutely no reason to replace it.
So personally I'm happy with it continuing as a low-level distributed
operating system, doing maintenance, adding small features - or
potentially larger ones like NUMA topology support, etc. Like I said
before, I don't think curl is gaining new features every day, but I
still find it invaluable and plan to keep using it for the foreseeable
future.

Cheers,

Charles



Le jeu. 8 avr. 2021 à 23:56, Andrei Sekretenko  a écrit :
>
> Well, one of the strengths of this project used to be effective
> collaboration between people sitting in different locations and
> different time zones (and, at certain intervals of time, working in
> different companies).
>
> Talking about COVID... the pandemic, assuming that it will subside,
> should probably be one more reason to vote -1 at this point in time.
> I don't know about everyone, but the additional overhead it creates
> everywhere is, for example, absolutely not helping me spend any time
> outside my working hours on any kind of knowledge transfer in Mesos
> (including discussions on the future of the project, for that matter).
>
> On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 at 18:29, Andreas Peters  wrote:
> >
> > As I see, Andrei you are sitting close to me (Hamburg, Germany), thats
> > just 30km away 

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Andrei Sekretenko]

Well, one of the strengths of this project used to be effective
collaboration between people sitting in different locations and
different time zones (and, at certain intervals of time, working in
different companies).

Talking about COVID... the pandemic, assuming that it will subside,
should probably be one more reason to vote -1 at this point in time.
I don't know about everyone, but the additional overhead it creates
everywhere is, for example, absolutely not helping me spend any time
outside my working hours on any kind of knowledge transfer in Mesos
(including discussions on the future of the project, for that matter).

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 at 18:29, Andreas Peters  wrote:
>
> As I see, Andrei you are sitting close to me (Hamburg, Germany), thats
> just 30km away from me. :-) It would make mentoring more easy, if we can
> see each other (of course, after covid).
>
> So, Andrei provide to be a mentor, I provide to be his student. :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Andreas
>
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Andreas Peters]

As I see, Andrei you are sitting close to me (Hamburg, Germany), thats
just 30km away from me. :-) It would make mentoring more easy, if we can
see each other (of course, after covid).

So, Andrei provide to be a mentor, I provide to be his student. :-)

Cheers,
Andreas




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Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Andrei Sekretenko]

EDIT: I will reconsider my vote if someone explains how the latter
(lower the bar and remain in ASF) is MORE
harmful to the project than the former (lower the bar and leave ASF)

// Sorry, mixing up left and right, as usual

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 at 18:10, Andrei Sekretenko  wrote:
>
> Sorry guys, let me try to fail this vote.
> -1 (binding)
>
> To continue any development (including maintenance), the entry bar for
> the people allowed to merge code and participate in project decisions
> has to be lowered, this way or another.
>
> I do not see how the approach "let's move the project out of ASF and
> lower the bar there" benefits the _future_ of the project, compared to
> lowering the committer bar while remaining in ASF.
> (I will reconsider my vote if someone explains how the latter is less
> harmful to the project than the former)
>
> To me, the elimination of the ASF reporting overhead is quite
> marginal, compared to the added overhead of:
>  - potential for future trademark hurdles (which can scare any
> potential contribution there might be)
>  - the need to immediately switch CI and issue tracker
>  - the old JIRA going read-only (yes, this should be counted as a
> separate concern)
> and so on
>
> I'm not saying that Mesos should stick to the ASF-provided
> infrastructure forever, but this is a different story.
> There are a number of things in Mesos that require major overhaul to
> lower the contribution overhead; in the new conditions, this might be
> one of them.
>
> Getting current (and potential future) contributors unstuck and
> relieving Vinod from the duties of heading the project (given that he
> wants to step down from being the PMC chair) is something we should do
> ASAP, however I doubt that moving into Attic is the right way to do
> that.
>
> I do not feel especially optimistic about the future prospects of the
> project, but IMO moving to Attic makes them even worse.
>
>
> ---
> Talking about what I personally can/want/cannot do:
>  - I do not see myself actively contributing (=adding new features and
> submitting solutions to address technical debt) to the project in the
> foreseeable future
>  - I will not be surprised if I will need to contribute some minor but
> critical bugfix in the nearest few months; for example, if someone
> exposes a major vulnerability in Mesos, I will probably have to work
> on that, and work on that quickly
>  - I'm ready to provide technical mentoring (and, hopefully,
> reasonably quick reviews) in areas I'm familiar with (this,
> unfortunately, excludes most of the inner workings of the agent, for
> example)
>  - I can provide mentoring and code reviews in areas I'm less familiar
> with, but do not expect quick feedback from me there, as meaningfully
> reviewing an unfamiliar code can be 2 to 100 times slower
>  - Despite having an opinion on where Mesos should not go, some
> understanding of the project's past mistakes, and some ideas on what
> it should drop, I have absolutely no idea where Mesos should go.
>
> Best,
> Andrei
>
> On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 at 17:50, Benjamin Bannier  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Shane,
> >
> > >> FWIW, I'm one of those people who said they were interested, and I
> > >> still voted to move it to the attic (even though my vote is non
> > >> binding as I'm not a committer).
> > >
> > >That's great!  One of the questions I have for the project is: why
> > >haven't they made you a committer yet?  (That's a question for the PMC,
> > >not for you, really, but it's one I'm betting the Board would be curious
> > >to hear about).
> >
> > I fear the problem is less that contributors haven't been voted in as
> > committers, but IMO that unfortunately the project has seen hardly any
> > contributions of bigger patches from the community in the last couple of
> > years, (I know we merged patches from Charles, but when some people
> > voiced interested here that's the first at least I heard of them). This
> > makes me pessimistic regarding a handover which medium term can improve
> > the situation.
> >
> > I summarized some issues I saw in an earlier thread (yes, this discussion
> > has been going on since Feb 2021), and I think the issues were only if
> > at all marginally related to committership,
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r4bccbf048a9bcde3f0bb66d5e2c57f585296e1f5e2769486413b2758%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
> > .
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Benjamin

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Andrei Sekretenko]

Sorry guys, let me try to fail this vote.
-1 (binding)

To continue any development (including maintenance), the entry bar for
the people allowed to merge code and participate in project decisions
has to be lowered, this way or another.

I do not see how the approach "let's move the project out of ASF and
lower the bar there" benefits the _future_ of the project, compared to
lowering the committer bar while remaining in ASF.
(I will reconsider my vote if someone explains how the latter is less
harmful to the project than the former)

To me, the elimination of the ASF reporting overhead is quite
marginal, compared to the added overhead of:
 - potential for future trademark hurdles (which can scare any
potential contribution there might be)
 - the need to immediately switch CI and issue tracker
 - the old JIRA going read-only (yes, this should be counted as a
separate concern)
and so on

I'm not saying that Mesos should stick to the ASF-provided
infrastructure forever, but this is a different story.
There are a number of things in Mesos that require major overhaul to
lower the contribution overhead; in the new conditions, this might be
one of them.

Getting current (and potential future) contributors unstuck and
relieving Vinod from the duties of heading the project (given that he
wants to step down from being the PMC chair) is something we should do
ASAP, however I doubt that moving into Attic is the right way to do
that.

I do not feel especially optimistic about the future prospects of the
project, but IMO moving to Attic makes them even worse.


---
Talking about what I personally can/want/cannot do:
 - I do not see myself actively contributing (=adding new features and
submitting solutions to address technical debt) to the project in the
foreseeable future
 - I will not be surprised if I will need to contribute some minor but
critical bugfix in the nearest few months; for example, if someone
exposes a major vulnerability in Mesos, I will probably have to work
on that, and work on that quickly
 - I'm ready to provide technical mentoring (and, hopefully,
reasonably quick reviews) in areas I'm familiar with (this,
unfortunately, excludes most of the inner workings of the agent, for
example)
 - I can provide mentoring and code reviews in areas I'm less familiar
with, but do not expect quick feedback from me there, as meaningfully
reviewing an unfamiliar code can be 2 to 100 times slower
 - Despite having an opinion on where Mesos should not go, some
understanding of the project's past mistakes, and some ideas on what
it should drop, I have absolutely no idea where Mesos should go.

Best,
Andrei

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 at 17:50, Benjamin Bannier  wrote:
>
> Hi Shane,
>
> >> FWIW, I'm one of those people who said they were interested, and I
> >> still voted to move it to the attic (even though my vote is non
> >> binding as I'm not a committer).
> >
> >That's great!  One of the questions I have for the project is: why
> >haven't they made you a committer yet?  (That's a question for the PMC,
> >not for you, really, but it's one I'm betting the Board would be curious
> >to hear about).
>
> I fear the problem is less that contributors haven't been voted in as
> committers, but IMO that unfortunately the project has seen hardly any
> contributions of bigger patches from the community in the last couple of
> years, (I know we merged patches from Charles, but when some people
> voiced interested here that's the first at least I heard of them). This
> makes me pessimistic regarding a handover which medium term can improve
> the situation.
>
> I summarized some issues I saw in an earlier thread (yes, this discussion
> has been going on since Feb 2021), and I think the issues were only if
> at all marginally related to committership,
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r4bccbf048a9bcde3f0bb66d5e2c57f585296e1f5e2769486413b2758%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
> .
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Benjamin

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Benjamin Bannier]

Hi Shane,

>> FWIW, I'm one of those people who said they were interested, and I
>> still voted to move it to the attic (even though my vote is non
>> binding as I'm not a committer).
>
>That's great!  One of the questions I have for the project is: why
>haven't they made you a committer yet?  (That's a question for the PMC,
>not for you, really, but it's one I'm betting the Board would be curious
>to hear about).

I fear the problem is less that contributors haven't been voted in as
committers, but IMO that unfortunately the project has seen hardly any
contributions of bigger patches from the community in the last couple of
years, (I know we merged patches from Charles, but when some people
voiced interested here that's the first at least I heard of them). This
makes me pessimistic regarding a handover which medium term can improve
the situation.

I summarized some issues I saw in an earlier thread (yes, this discussion
has been going on since Feb 2021), and I think the issues were only if
at all marginally related to committership,
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r4bccbf048a9bcde3f0bb66d5e2c57f585296e1f5e2769486413b2758%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
.


Cheers,

Benjamin

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Andreas Peters]

> - Given the discussions here that show there are likely new contributors
> who want to help build Apache Mesos, don't worry about the Attic. 

We/there are a couple of peoples who want to be contributors and help to
build Mesos. :-)


> Trademarks are about *products*.  Using github.com/mesos/mesos as an
> organization and project outside the ASF is not a good idea.  Forking
> /ghuser/mesos/ and then trying to build a whole new community to ship
> Mesos software to the world is not a good idea.  Building a new product
> called M-Cloud, Powered By Apache Mesos would be fine, however.

OK, thanks for clarify this point.


> It doesn't matter if it's  ever going to be close to K8s, all that matters is 
> if people are using
> it and want to keep maintaining it here for their own workloads - if
> there are folks who want to do that, then just step up and it can happen.

You are speaking from my soul.


Cheers,
Andreas



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2021/04/07 01:42:07, Charles-François Natali 
wrote: > Hi Rich,
> 
> FWIW, I'm one of those people who said they were interested, and I
> still voted to move it to the attic (even though my vote is non
> binding as I'm not a committer).

That's great!  One of the questions I have for the project is: why
haven't they made you a committer yet?  (That's a question for the PMC,
not for you, really, but it's one I'm betting the Board would be curious
to hear about).

...snip...
> However if that's really not possible, then I guess that leaves no
> other option: once the vote has passed, I guess I'll start a final
> thread to gather people who'd be interested to create a new project
> forked off master on github, so we can start from scratch with our own
> repository, bug tracker etc. I hope those people who said they're
> actually interested will be willing to take an active part.

Just to be clear as noted else-thread: the PMC vote is merely a
recommendation to move to the Attic.  Given the discussions here, my bet
is the board will defer the resolution, so don't give up yet.

For historical perspective, similar cases like this in the past have
resulted in the Board appointing an/some Apache Members to the PMC to
help provide mentoring, and to directly invite existing contributors to
be committers or join the PMC.  Then the Board would wait to see if the
new energy can revive the project again.  We try to avoid the Attic if
there seems like there's energy still here willing to try.

-- 
- Shane
  Apache Member
  The Apache Software Foundation

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2021/04/08 14:04:47, Andreas Peters  wrote: >
Hi Shane!
> 
> 
> > Forks are *NOT* allowed to use the ASF's brands or trademarks, so if
> > you're planning to advertise a new fork to do active development, my bet
> > is you'll need a new name.
> 
> Does it mean, "my" fork cannot called Mesos?
> 
> If it's so, then please do not move Mesos in the attic. There are
> peoples who like to care Mesos but if we have to rename it, then it's
> like you kill it.

Two notes:

- Given the discussions here that show there are likely new contributors
who want to help build Apache Mesos, don't worry about the Attic.  Even
if the PMC vote succeeds at this point, I highly doubt the Board will
pass the resolution.  The Board always wants to see if a new community
can self-organize and revitalize a project, so I expect they'll defer
any official action and give people here a chance to organize.

- Trademarks are not (usually) about URLs, repo names, or package names.
 They are about brands and building products for widespread public use.
 GitHub users can create their own /ghuser/mesos forks all they want -
that's a development activity, which is generally fine.  You can
maintain your own mesos fork and improve it for your organization's use
as long as you like.

Trademarks are about *products*.  Using github.com/mesos/mesos as an
organization and project outside the ASF is not a good idea.  Forking
/ghuser/mesos/ and then trying to build a whole new community to ship
Mesos software to the world is not a good idea.  Building a new product
called M-Cloud, Powered By Apache Mesos would be fine, however.

More reading:

  https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/#principles

In any case, this should be pretty simple: find a couple of existing
committers and/or Apache Members to provide some mentoring, solicit all
the existing willing contributors and onboard them as committers or new
PMC members, and keep building Apache Mesos.  It doesn't matter if it's
ever going to be close to K8s, all that matters is if people are using
it and want to keep maintaining it here for their own workloads - if
there are folks who want to do that, then just step up and it can happen.

-- 
- Shane
  Apache Member
  The Apache Software Foundation

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Charles-François Natali]

I must say I'm really confused as well - what constitutes a fork in this
context?



On Thu, 8 Apr 2021, 21:07 Andreas Peters,  wrote:

> Hi Shane!
>
>
> > Forks are *NOT* allowed to use the ASF's brands or trademarks, so if
> > you're planning to advertise a new fork to do active development, my bet
> > is you'll need a new name.
>
> Does it mean, "my" fork cannot called Mesos?
>
> If it's so, then please do not move Mesos in the attic. There are
> peoples who like to care Mesos but if we have to rename it, then it's
> like you kill it.
>
> Cheers,
> Andreas
>
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Andreas Peters]

Hi Shane!


> Forks are *NOT* allowed to use the ASF's brands or trademarks, so if
> you're planning to advertise a new fork to do active development, my bet
> is you'll need a new name.

Does it mean, "my" fork cannot called Mesos?

If it's so, then please do not move Mesos in the attic. There are
peoples who like to care Mesos but if we have to rename it, then it's
like you kill it.

Cheers,
Andreas



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2021/04/07 02:48:15, Vinod Kone  wrote: > Hi Rich,
...snip...
> Yes, there are some folks who are still interested in making some (minor)
> contributions but for that they just need a single repo to collaborate on.
> ASF has been a great home and steward for the Mesos project, but at this
> stage in its lifecycle, Mesos project could actually benefit from an ultra
> lightweight process and collaboration model. A public GitHub repo with
> requisite permissions for collaborators would serve these purposes well
> compared to the ASF process (PMC, voting, board reports etc).

The real question is: are there enough existing contributors who would
like to step up to re-form a PMC here at Apache?

It feels like one of the major undercurrents here is that the existing
Mesos PMC has historically had too high a bar to admitting committers or
new PMC members.  The simple solution is to simply lower that bar, and
see what energy new blood can contribute here.  It's really a question
of bringing the new energy there seems to be out there into the PMC.

> As an aside, would the ASF Board have any issue with the community forking
> the project and collaborating at https://github.com/mesos/mesos ?

Obviously, all of the code is under the Apache license, so everyone's
free to fork.

Forks are *NOT* allowed to use the ASF's brands or trademarks, so if
you're planning to advertise a new fork to do active development, my bet
is you'll need a new name.

In particular, since MESOS is a registered trademark in the US, it is
not practical to "give away" the registration except to another 501C3
public charity (or equivalent in Europe).


https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=87325890=SERIAL_NO=statusSearch

If there are specific questions around trademarks, please see:

  https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/contact#pmc

-- 
- Shane
  Apache Member & Ex-VP Brand Management
  The Apache Software Foundation

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[DhilipKumar Sankaranarayanan]

+1

All the very best everyone,
really sad to see this great project go to attic :-( also excited about
it's potential forks.

Regards,
Dhilip

On Tue, 6 Apr, 2021, 3:07 PM Benjamin Mahler,  wrote:

> +1 (binding)
>
> Thanks to all who contributed to the project.
>
> On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 1:58 PM Vinod Kone  wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Based on the recent conversations
>> <
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/raed89cc5ab78531c48f56aa1989e1e7eb05f89a6941e38e9bc8803ff%40%3Cuser.mesos.apache.org%3E
>> >
>> on our mailing list, it seems to me that the majority consensus among the
>> existing PMC is to move the project to the attic <
>> https://attic.apache.org/>
>> and let the interested community members collaborate on a fork in Github.
>>
>> I would like to call a vote to dissolve the PMC and move the project to
>> the
>> attic.
>>
>> Please reply to this thread with your vote. Only binding votes from
>> PMC/committers count towards the final tally but everyone in the community
>> is encouraged to vote. See process here
>> .
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Rich Bowen]

Thanks for taking the time to explain more to an outsider. Much appreciated. I 
remain unclear as to how the project could have enough people to remain active 
on Github, but not here. However, not seeing any dissenting voices from the 
stated-possible-new-committers, I accept your reasoning, and will resume my 
place in the peanut gallery. I wish you all well, and it was a pleasure having 
you here at Apache for the past 8 years.

--Rich

On 2021/04/07 01:42:07, Charles-François Natali  wrote: 
> Hi Rich,
> 
> FWIW, I'm one of those people who said they were interested, and I
> still voted to move it to the attic (even though my vote is non
> binding as I'm not a committer).
> 
> Initially I also thought that we could try to revive it within the
> ASF, but it quickly became clear that *none* of the current committers
> is willing to go down that route, i.e. put in the effort needed to
> onboard new committers. And without that, there's just no way forward.
> Various people voiced other concerns as well, such as viability of the
> project when other alternatives like Kubernetes exist, lack of clear
> technical direction for the future, etc.
> While they're relevant questions, I think currently they don't really
> make sense since the current Mesos community is basically dead.
> Finally, I think that the project should be moved to the Attic de
> facto because AFAICT the Apache rules require at least 3 *active*
> committers, and that's definitely not the case.
> 
> However I still do believe in the project for the reasons I outlined
> in some of the previous threads, and I'm still interested in
> contributing: I just think that the current structure of the project
> is not suited for that anymore. And to be honest, I just want to move
> on, I'm tired of those endless discussions - it's been almost 2 months
> since the first thread stared, and nothing happened.
> 
> It's a shame that we won't be able to continue using
> https://github.com/apache/mesos though, as it creates a much higher
> barrier to continuing the project.
> 
> However if that's really not possible, then I guess that leaves no
> other option: once the vote has passed, I guess I'll start a final
> thread to gather people who'd be interested to create a new project
> forked off master on github, so we can start from scratch with our own
> repository, bug tracker etc. I hope those people who said they're
> actually interested will be willing to take an active part.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Le mer. 7 avr. 2021 à 02:50, Rich Bowen  a écrit :
> >
> > I hope y'all can forgive me for sticking my nose in, as a concerned member. 
> > Color me confused by this vote.
> >
> > A month ago, on this same list - 
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r307db648e201182fcf39b0de63ba224b94965501e20e6cbcecc085e4%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
> >  - Qian asked who was still interested in keeping the project going. SIX 
> > people responded that, given the chance, they'd step up and keep it going.
> >
> > Around that same time - 
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/raed89cc5ab78531c48f56aa1989e1e7eb05f89a6941e38e9bc8803ff%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
> >  - Vinod observed that the too-high barrier to granting committer rights 
> > has been a major factor in the slowdown of the project.
> >
> > And yet, y'all are voting to attic the project.
> >
> > So, again, it's not my project, and I don't have a vote here, but the 
> > reason the Board asks projects to have these attic conversations on the Dev 
> > list is *specifically* so that interested people can say, hey, don't attic 
> > it, we'll take it from here. Which six people, plus Qian, have done.
> >
> > Maybe it's time to lower the barrier to entry, and let these willing people 
> > take the project forward, do so. The Board can work out the picky little 
> > details of re-forming the PMC, if that's a difficulty.
> >
> >
> 

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Yan Xu]

+1

It’s been quite a journey!

Yan

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 7:49 PM Vinod Kone  wrote:

> Hi Rich,
>
> Thanks for chiming in and providing your perspective.
>
> Charles already did a great job summarizing some of the current sentiments
> in the community above. I wanted to add a couple more points based on my
> discussions with folks in the community and PMC.
>
> Yes, there are some folks who are still interested in making some (minor)
> contributions but for that they just need a single repo to collaborate on.
> ASF has been a great home and steward for the Mesos project, but at this
> stage in its lifecycle, Mesos project could actually benefit from an ultra
> lightweight process and collaboration model. A public GitHub repo with
> requisite permissions for collaborators would serve these purposes well
> compared to the ASF process (PMC, voting, board reports etc).
>
> As an aside, would the ASF Board have any issue with the community forking
> the project and collaborating at https://github.com/mesos/mesos ?
>
> Thanks,
> Vinod
>
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 9:01 PM Samuel Marks  wrote:
>
> > Who runs this one? https://github.com/mesos
> >
> > Samuel Marks
> > Charity  | consultancy <
> https://offscale.io>
> > | open-source  | LinkedIn
> > 
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 11:42 AM Charles-François Natali <
> > cf.nat...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Rich,
> > >
> > > FWIW, I'm one of those people who said they were interested, and I
> > > still voted to move it to the attic (even though my vote is non
> > > binding as I'm not a committer).
> > >
> > > Initially I also thought that we could try to revive it within the
> > > ASF, but it quickly became clear that *none* of the current committers
> > > is willing to go down that route, i.e. put in the effort needed to
> > > onboard new committers. And without that, there's just no way forward.
> > > Various people voiced other concerns as well, such as viability of the
> > > project when other alternatives like Kubernetes exist, lack of clear
> > > technical direction for the future, etc.
> > > While they're relevant questions, I think currently they don't really
> > > make sense since the current Mesos community is basically dead.
> > > Finally, I think that the project should be moved to the Attic de
> > > facto because AFAICT the Apache rules require at least 3 *active*
> > > committers, and that's definitely not the case.
> > >
> > > However I still do believe in the project for the reasons I outlined
> > > in some of the previous threads, and I'm still interested in
> > > contributing: I just think that the current structure of the project
> > > is not suited for that anymore. And to be honest, I just want to move
> > > on, I'm tired of those endless discussions - it's been almost 2 months
> > > since the first thread stared, and nothing happened.
> > >
> > > It's a shame that we won't be able to continue using
> > > https://github.com/apache/mesos though, as it creates a much higher
> > > barrier to continuing the project.
> > >
> > > However if that's really not possible, then I guess that leaves no
> > > other option: once the vote has passed, I guess I'll start a final
> > > thread to gather people who'd be interested to create a new project
> > > forked off master on github, so we can start from scratch with our own
> > > repository, bug tracker etc. I hope those people who said they're
> > > actually interested will be willing to take an active part.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Charles
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Le mer. 7 avr. 2021 à 02:50, Rich Bowen  a écrit :
> > > >
> > > > I hope y'all can forgive me for sticking my nose in, as a concerned
> > > member. Color me confused by this vote.
> > > >
> > > > A month ago, on this same list -
> > >
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r307db648e201182fcf39b0de63ba224b94965501e20e6cbcecc085e4%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
> > > - Qian asked who was still interested in keeping the project going. SIX
> > > people responded that, given the chance, they'd step up and keep it
> > going.
> > > >
> > > > Around that same time -
> > >
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/raed89cc5ab78531c48f56aa1989e1e7eb05f89a6941e38e9bc8803ff%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
> > > - Vinod observed that the too-high barrier to granting committer rights
> > has
> > > been a major factor in the slowdown of the project.
> > > >
> > > > And yet, y'all are voting to attic the project.
> > > >
> > > > So, again, it's not my project, and I don't have a vote here, but the
> > > reason the Board asks projects to have these attic conversations on the
> > Dev
> > > list is *specifically* so that interested people can say, hey, don't
> > attic
> > > it, we'll take it from here. Which six people, plus Qian, have done.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe it's time to lower the barrier to entry, and let these willing
> > > people take 

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Vinod Kone]

Hi Rich,

Thanks for chiming in and providing your perspective.

Charles already did a great job summarizing some of the current sentiments
in the community above. I wanted to add a couple more points based on my
discussions with folks in the community and PMC.

Yes, there are some folks who are still interested in making some (minor)
contributions but for that they just need a single repo to collaborate on.
ASF has been a great home and steward for the Mesos project, but at this
stage in its lifecycle, Mesos project could actually benefit from an ultra
lightweight process and collaboration model. A public GitHub repo with
requisite permissions for collaborators would serve these purposes well
compared to the ASF process (PMC, voting, board reports etc).

As an aside, would the ASF Board have any issue with the community forking
the project and collaborating at https://github.com/mesos/mesos ?

Thanks,
Vinod

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 9:01 PM Samuel Marks  wrote:

> Who runs this one? https://github.com/mesos
>
> Samuel Marks
> Charity  | consultancy 
> | open-source  | LinkedIn
> 
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 11:42 AM Charles-François Natali <
> cf.nat...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Rich,
> >
> > FWIW, I'm one of those people who said they were interested, and I
> > still voted to move it to the attic (even though my vote is non
> > binding as I'm not a committer).
> >
> > Initially I also thought that we could try to revive it within the
> > ASF, but it quickly became clear that *none* of the current committers
> > is willing to go down that route, i.e. put in the effort needed to
> > onboard new committers. And without that, there's just no way forward.
> > Various people voiced other concerns as well, such as viability of the
> > project when other alternatives like Kubernetes exist, lack of clear
> > technical direction for the future, etc.
> > While they're relevant questions, I think currently they don't really
> > make sense since the current Mesos community is basically dead.
> > Finally, I think that the project should be moved to the Attic de
> > facto because AFAICT the Apache rules require at least 3 *active*
> > committers, and that's definitely not the case.
> >
> > However I still do believe in the project for the reasons I outlined
> > in some of the previous threads, and I'm still interested in
> > contributing: I just think that the current structure of the project
> > is not suited for that anymore. And to be honest, I just want to move
> > on, I'm tired of those endless discussions - it's been almost 2 months
> > since the first thread stared, and nothing happened.
> >
> > It's a shame that we won't be able to continue using
> > https://github.com/apache/mesos though, as it creates a much higher
> > barrier to continuing the project.
> >
> > However if that's really not possible, then I guess that leaves no
> > other option: once the vote has passed, I guess I'll start a final
> > thread to gather people who'd be interested to create a new project
> > forked off master on github, so we can start from scratch with our own
> > repository, bug tracker etc. I hope those people who said they're
> > actually interested will be willing to take an active part.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Charles
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Le mer. 7 avr. 2021 à 02:50, Rich Bowen  a écrit :
> > >
> > > I hope y'all can forgive me for sticking my nose in, as a concerned
> > member. Color me confused by this vote.
> > >
> > > A month ago, on this same list -
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r307db648e201182fcf39b0de63ba224b94965501e20e6cbcecc085e4%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
> > - Qian asked who was still interested in keeping the project going. SIX
> > people responded that, given the chance, they'd step up and keep it
> going.
> > >
> > > Around that same time -
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/raed89cc5ab78531c48f56aa1989e1e7eb05f89a6941e38e9bc8803ff%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
> > - Vinod observed that the too-high barrier to granting committer rights
> has
> > been a major factor in the slowdown of the project.
> > >
> > > And yet, y'all are voting to attic the project.
> > >
> > > So, again, it's not my project, and I don't have a vote here, but the
> > reason the Board asks projects to have these attic conversations on the
> Dev
> > list is *specifically* so that interested people can say, hey, don't
> attic
> > it, we'll take it from here. Which six people, plus Qian, have done.
> > >
> > > Maybe it's time to lower the barrier to entry, and let these willing
> > people take the project forward, do so. The Board can work out the picky
> > little details of re-forming the PMC, if that's a difficulty.
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Samuel Marks]

Who runs this one? https://github.com/mesos

Samuel Marks
Charity  | consultancy 
| open-source  | LinkedIn



On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 11:42 AM Charles-François Natali 
wrote:

> Hi Rich,
>
> FWIW, I'm one of those people who said they were interested, and I
> still voted to move it to the attic (even though my vote is non
> binding as I'm not a committer).
>
> Initially I also thought that we could try to revive it within the
> ASF, but it quickly became clear that *none* of the current committers
> is willing to go down that route, i.e. put in the effort needed to
> onboard new committers. And without that, there's just no way forward.
> Various people voiced other concerns as well, such as viability of the
> project when other alternatives like Kubernetes exist, lack of clear
> technical direction for the future, etc.
> While they're relevant questions, I think currently they don't really
> make sense since the current Mesos community is basically dead.
> Finally, I think that the project should be moved to the Attic de
> facto because AFAICT the Apache rules require at least 3 *active*
> committers, and that's definitely not the case.
>
> However I still do believe in the project for the reasons I outlined
> in some of the previous threads, and I'm still interested in
> contributing: I just think that the current structure of the project
> is not suited for that anymore. And to be honest, I just want to move
> on, I'm tired of those endless discussions - it's been almost 2 months
> since the first thread stared, and nothing happened.
>
> It's a shame that we won't be able to continue using
> https://github.com/apache/mesos though, as it creates a much higher
> barrier to continuing the project.
>
> However if that's really not possible, then I guess that leaves no
> other option: once the vote has passed, I guess I'll start a final
> thread to gather people who'd be interested to create a new project
> forked off master on github, so we can start from scratch with our own
> repository, bug tracker etc. I hope those people who said they're
> actually interested will be willing to take an active part.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Charles
>
>
>
>
>
> Le mer. 7 avr. 2021 à 02:50, Rich Bowen  a écrit :
> >
> > I hope y'all can forgive me for sticking my nose in, as a concerned
> member. Color me confused by this vote.
> >
> > A month ago, on this same list -
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r307db648e201182fcf39b0de63ba224b94965501e20e6cbcecc085e4%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
> - Qian asked who was still interested in keeping the project going. SIX
> people responded that, given the chance, they'd step up and keep it going.
> >
> > Around that same time -
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/raed89cc5ab78531c48f56aa1989e1e7eb05f89a6941e38e9bc8803ff%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
> - Vinod observed that the too-high barrier to granting committer rights has
> been a major factor in the slowdown of the project.
> >
> > And yet, y'all are voting to attic the project.
> >
> > So, again, it's not my project, and I don't have a vote here, but the
> reason the Board asks projects to have these attic conversations on the Dev
> list is *specifically* so that interested people can say, hey, don't attic
> it, we'll take it from here. Which six people, plus Qian, have done.
> >
> > Maybe it's time to lower the barrier to entry, and let these willing
> people take the project forward, do so. The Board can work out the picky
> little details of re-forming the PMC, if that's a difficulty.
> >
> >
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Charles-François Natali]

Hi Rich,

FWIW, I'm one of those people who said they were interested, and I
still voted to move it to the attic (even though my vote is non
binding as I'm not a committer).

Initially I also thought that we could try to revive it within the
ASF, but it quickly became clear that *none* of the current committers
is willing to go down that route, i.e. put in the effort needed to
onboard new committers. And without that, there's just no way forward.
Various people voiced other concerns as well, such as viability of the
project when other alternatives like Kubernetes exist, lack of clear
technical direction for the future, etc.
While they're relevant questions, I think currently they don't really
make sense since the current Mesos community is basically dead.
Finally, I think that the project should be moved to the Attic de
facto because AFAICT the Apache rules require at least 3 *active*
committers, and that's definitely not the case.

However I still do believe in the project for the reasons I outlined
in some of the previous threads, and I'm still interested in
contributing: I just think that the current structure of the project
is not suited for that anymore. And to be honest, I just want to move
on, I'm tired of those endless discussions - it's been almost 2 months
since the first thread stared, and nothing happened.

It's a shame that we won't be able to continue using
https://github.com/apache/mesos though, as it creates a much higher
barrier to continuing the project.

However if that's really not possible, then I guess that leaves no
other option: once the vote has passed, I guess I'll start a final
thread to gather people who'd be interested to create a new project
forked off master on github, so we can start from scratch with our own
repository, bug tracker etc. I hope those people who said they're
actually interested will be willing to take an active part.

Cheers,

Charles





Le mer. 7 avr. 2021 à 02:50, Rich Bowen  a écrit :
>
> I hope y'all can forgive me for sticking my nose in, as a concerned member. 
> Color me confused by this vote.
>
> A month ago, on this same list - 
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r307db648e201182fcf39b0de63ba224b94965501e20e6cbcecc085e4%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
>  - Qian asked who was still interested in keeping the project going. SIX 
> people responded that, given the chance, they'd step up and keep it going.
>
> Around that same time - 
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/raed89cc5ab78531c48f56aa1989e1e7eb05f89a6941e38e9bc8803ff%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
>  - Vinod observed that the too-high barrier to granting committer rights has 
> been a major factor in the slowdown of the project.
>
> And yet, y'all are voting to attic the project.
>
> So, again, it's not my project, and I don't have a vote here, but the reason 
> the Board asks projects to have these attic conversations on the Dev list is 
> *specifically* so that interested people can say, hey, don't attic it, we'll 
> take it from here. Which six people, plus Qian, have done.
>
> Maybe it's time to lower the barrier to entry, and let these willing people 
> take the project forward, do so. The Board can work out the picky little 
> details of re-forming the PMC, if that's a difficulty.
>
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Rich Bowen]

I hope y'all can forgive me for sticking my nose in, as a concerned member. 
Color me confused by this vote.

A month ago, on this same list - 
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r307db648e201182fcf39b0de63ba224b94965501e20e6cbcecc085e4%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
 - Qian asked who was still interested in keeping the project going. SIX people 
responded that, given the chance, they'd step up and keep it going.

Around that same time - 
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/raed89cc5ab78531c48f56aa1989e1e7eb05f89a6941e38e9bc8803ff%40%3Cdev.mesos.apache.org%3E
 - Vinod observed that the too-high barrier to granting committer rights has 
been a major factor in the slowdown of the project.

And yet, y'all are voting to attic the project.

So, again, it's not my project, and I don't have a vote here, but the reason 
the Board asks projects to have these attic conversations on the Dev list is 
*specifically* so that interested people can say, hey, don't attic it, we'll 
take it from here. Which six people, plus Qian, have done.

Maybe it's time to lower the barrier to entry, and let these willing people 
take the project forward, do so. The Board can work out the picky little 
details of re-forming the PMC, if that's a difficulty.

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Gastón Kleiman]

+1

I had a great time working with you all and with the community! Hope our
paths cross again in the future!

On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 10:58 AM Vinod Kone  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> Based on the recent conversations
> 
> on our mailing list, it seems to me that the majority consensus among the
> existing PMC is to move the project to the attic
>  and let the interested community members
> collaborate on a fork in Github.
>
> I would like to call a vote to dissolve the PMC and move the project to
> the attic.
>
> Please reply to this thread with your vote. Only binding votes from
> PMC/committers count towards the final tally but everyone in the community
> is encouraged to vote. See process here
> .
>
> Thanks,
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Kevin Klues]

+1 (binding)

While it is of course sad to see things come to an end here, I do encourage
those of you who wish to see Mesos live on to try and breath new life into
it as a standalone project on github.
In that sense, this is more of a new beginning than an end.
The king is dead, long live the king!

Kevin

Am Di., 6. Apr. 2021 um 21:07 Uhr schrieb Benjamin Mahler <
bmah...@apache.org>:

> +1 (binding)
>
> Thanks to all who contributed to the project.
>
> On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 1:58 PM Vinod Kone  wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Based on the recent conversations
>> <
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/raed89cc5ab78531c48f56aa1989e1e7eb05f89a6941e38e9bc8803ff%40%3Cuser.mesos.apache.org%3E
>> >
>> on our mailing list, it seems to me that the majority consensus among the
>> existing PMC is to move the project to the attic <
>> https://attic.apache.org/>
>> and let the interested community members collaborate on a fork in Github.
>>
>> I would like to call a vote to dissolve the PMC and move the project to
>> the
>> attic.
>>
>> Please reply to this thread with your vote. Only binding votes from
>> PMC/committers count towards the final tally but everyone in the community
>> is encouraged to vote. See process here
>> .
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>

-- 
~Kevin

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Benjamin Mahler]

+1 (binding)

Thanks to all who contributed to the project.

On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 1:58 PM Vinod Kone  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> Based on the recent conversations
> <
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/raed89cc5ab78531c48f56aa1989e1e7eb05f89a6941e38e9bc8803ff%40%3Cuser.mesos.apache.org%3E
> >
> on our mailing list, it seems to me that the majority consensus among the
> existing PMC is to move the project to the attic <
> https://attic.apache.org/>
> and let the interested community members collaborate on a fork in Github.
>
> I would like to call a vote to dissolve the PMC and move the project to the
> attic.
>
> Please reply to this thread with your vote. Only binding votes from
> PMC/committers count towards the final tally but everyone in the community
> is encouraged to vote. See process here
> .
>
> Thanks,
>

Re: Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Greg Stein]

Write permission will be turned off. All Apache Mesos repositories will become 
read-only, upon a move to the Attic.

Regards,
Greg Stein
Infrastructure Administrator, ASF

On 2021/04/06 11:34:23 Charles-François Natali wrote:
> +1 (non binding)
> 
> Hopefully this will allow the project to continue its life outside the ASF.
> 
> Can you confirm whether it'll be possible to continue using
> https://github.com/apache/mesos and give write permissions to the various
> people who expressed interest?
> 
> On Tue, 6 Apr 2021, 14:47 Alex R,  wrote:
> 
> > +1 (binding)
> >
> > Great times having worked with you folks!
> >
> > On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 at 21:50, Andrew Schwartzmeyer 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > It seems to be the best (and really only) move at this point, +1.
> > >
> > > It was nice working with you all!
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > On 2021/04/05 18:31:13, Benjamin Bannier  wrote:
> > > > With a heavy heart, but also curiosity about what will come next, +1.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Benjamin
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 7:58 PM Vinod Kone 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi folks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Based on the recent conversations
> > > > > <
> > >
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/raed89cc5ab78531c48f56aa1989e1e7eb05f89a6941e38e9bc8803ff%40%3Cuser.mesos.apache.org%3E
> > > >
> > > > > on our mailing list, it seems to me that the majority consensus among
> > > the
> > > > > existing PMC is to move the project to the attic
> > > > >  and let the interested community members
> > > > > collaborate on a fork in Github.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would like to call a vote to dissolve the PMC and move the project
> > to
> > > > > the attic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please reply to this thread with your vote. Only binding votes from
> > > > > PMC/committers count towards the final tally but everyone in the
> > > community
> > > > > is encouraged to vote. See process here
> > > > > .
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Dave Lester]

+1 (binding)

On 2021/04/06 15:19:13, Jie Yu  wrote: 
> +1
> 
> It was great working with you all.
> 
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 7:13 AM Till Toenshoff  wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > On 5. Apr 2021, at 19:58, Vinod Kone  wrote:
> >
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > Based on the recent conversations
> > 
> > on our mailing list, it seems to me that the majority consensus among the
> > existing PMC is to move the project to the attic
> >  and let the interested community members
> > collaborate on a fork in Github.
> >
> > I would like to call a vote to dissolve the PMC and move the project to
> > the attic.
> >
> > Please reply to this thread with your vote. Only binding votes from
> > PMC/committers count towards the final tally but everyone in the community
> > is encouraged to vote. See process here
> > .
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > +1 for move to attic.
> >
> 

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Gastón Kleiman]

+1

I had a great time working with you all and with the community! Hope our
paths cross again in the future!

On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 10:58 AM Vinod Kone  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> Based on the recent conversations
> 
> on our mailing list, it seems to me that the majority consensus among the
> existing PMC is to move the project to the attic
>  and let the interested community members
> collaborate on a fork in Github.
>
> I would like to call a vote to dissolve the PMC and move the project to
> the attic.
>
> Please reply to this thread with your vote. Only binding votes from
> PMC/committers count towards the final tally but everyone in the community
> is encouraged to vote. See process here
> .
>
> Thanks,
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Meng Zhu]

+1

It has been a pleasure working with you all!

On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 10:58 AM Vinod Kone  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> Based on the recent conversations
> <
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/raed89cc5ab78531c48f56aa1989e1e7eb05f89a6941e38e9bc8803ff%40%3Cuser.mesos.apache.org%3E
> >
> on our mailing list, it seems to me that the majority consensus among the
> existing PMC is to move the project to the attic <
> https://attic.apache.org/>
> and let the interested community members collaborate on a fork in Github.
>
> I would like to call a vote to dissolve the PMC and move the project to the
> attic.
>
> Please reply to this thread with your vote. Only binding votes from
> PMC/committers count towards the final tally but everyone in the community
> is encouraged to vote. See process here
> .
>
> Thanks,
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Jie Yu]

+1

It was great working with you all.

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 7:13 AM Till Toenshoff  wrote:

>
>
> On 5. Apr 2021, at 19:58, Vinod Kone  wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> Based on the recent conversations
> 
> on our mailing list, it seems to me that the majority consensus among the
> existing PMC is to move the project to the attic
>  and let the interested community members
> collaborate on a fork in Github.
>
> I would like to call a vote to dissolve the PMC and move the project to
> the attic.
>
> Please reply to this thread with your vote. Only binding votes from
> PMC/committers count towards the final tally but everyone in the community
> is encouraged to vote. See process here
> .
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
> +1 for move to attic.
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Till Toenshoff]

> On 5. Apr 2021, at 19:58, Vinod Kone  wrote:
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> Based on the recent conversations 
> 
>  on our mailing list, it seems to me that the majority consensus among the 
> existing PMC is to move the project to the attic  
> and let the interested community members collaborate on a fork in Github.
> 
> I would like to call a vote to dissolve the PMC and move the project to the 
> attic. 
> 
> Please reply to this thread with your vote. Only binding votes from 
> PMC/committers count towards the final tally but everyone in the community is 
> encouraged to vote. See process here .
> 
> Thanks,



+1 for move to attic.

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Charles-François Natali]

+1 (non binding)

Hopefully this will allow the project to continue its life outside the ASF.

Can you confirm whether it'll be possible to continue using
https://github.com/apache/mesos and give write permissions to the various
people who expressed interest?

On Tue, 6 Apr 2021, 14:47 Alex R,  wrote:

> +1 (binding)
>
> Great times having worked with you folks!
>
> On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 at 21:50, Andrew Schwartzmeyer 
> wrote:
>
> > It seems to be the best (and really only) move at this point, +1.
> >
> > It was nice working with you all!
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > On 2021/04/05 18:31:13, Benjamin Bannier  wrote:
> > > With a heavy heart, but also curiosity about what will come next, +1.
> > >
> > >
> > > Benjamin
> > >
> > > On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 7:58 PM Vinod Kone 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi folks,
> > > >
> > > > Based on the recent conversations
> > > > <
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/raed89cc5ab78531c48f56aa1989e1e7eb05f89a6941e38e9bc8803ff%40%3Cuser.mesos.apache.org%3E
> > >
> > > > on our mailing list, it seems to me that the majority consensus among
> > the
> > > > existing PMC is to move the project to the attic
> > > >  and let the interested community members
> > > > collaborate on a fork in Github.
> > > >
> > > > I would like to call a vote to dissolve the PMC and move the project
> to
> > > > the attic.
> > > >
> > > > Please reply to this thread with your vote. Only binding votes from
> > > > PMC/committers count towards the final tally but everyone in the
> > community
> > > > is encouraged to vote. See process here
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Alex R]

+1 (binding)

Great times having worked with you folks!

On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 at 21:50, Andrew Schwartzmeyer 
wrote:

> It seems to be the best (and really only) move at this point, +1.
>
> It was nice working with you all!
>
> Andy
>
> On 2021/04/05 18:31:13, Benjamin Bannier  wrote:
> > With a heavy heart, but also curiosity about what will come next, +1.
> >
> >
> > Benjamin
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 7:58 PM Vinod Kone  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi folks,
> > >
> > > Based on the recent conversations
> > > <
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/raed89cc5ab78531c48f56aa1989e1e7eb05f89a6941e38e9bc8803ff%40%3Cuser.mesos.apache.org%3E
> >
> > > on our mailing list, it seems to me that the majority consensus among
> the
> > > existing PMC is to move the project to the attic
> > >  and let the interested community members
> > > collaborate on a fork in Github.
> > >
> > > I would like to call a vote to dissolve the PMC and move the project to
> > > the attic.
> > >
> > > Please reply to this thread with your vote. Only binding votes from
> > > PMC/committers count towards the final tally but everyone in the
> community
> > > is encouraged to vote. See process here
> > > .
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> >
>

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Andrew Schwartzmeyer]

It seems to be the best (and really only) move at this point, +1.

It was nice working with you all!

Andy

On 2021/04/05 18:31:13, Benjamin Bannier  wrote: 
> With a heavy heart, but also curiosity about what will come next, +1.
> 
> 
> Benjamin
> 
> On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 7:58 PM Vinod Kone  wrote:
> 
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > Based on the recent conversations
> > 
> > on our mailing list, it seems to me that the majority consensus among the
> > existing PMC is to move the project to the attic
> >  and let the interested community members
> > collaborate on a fork in Github.
> >
> > I would like to call a vote to dissolve the PMC and move the project to
> > the attic.
> >
> > Please reply to this thread with your vote. Only binding votes from
> > PMC/committers count towards the final tally but everyone in the community
> > is encouraged to vote. See process here
> > .
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> 

Re: [VOTE] Move Apache Mesos to Attic

[Benjamin Bannier]

With a heavy heart, but also curiosity about what will come next, +1.


Benjamin

On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 7:58 PM Vinod Kone  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> Based on the recent conversations
> 
> on our mailing list, it seems to me that the majority consensus among the
> existing PMC is to move the project to the attic
>  and let the interested community members
> collaborate on a fork in Github.
>
> I would like to call a vote to dissolve the PMC and move the project to
> the attic.
>
> Please reply to this thread with your vote. Only binding votes from
> PMC/committers count towards the final tally but everyone in the community
> is encouraged to vote. See process here
> .
>
> Thanks,
>