Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I was surprised when I plugged my phone into my 2011 Leaf USB port to
charge and it automatically started playing the music stored on my phone.
Cor.

On Sun, Apr 21, 2024, 2:43 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> And to point out what a geezer I am, my cars have (gasp) CD or cassette
> tape players. On long lonely drives in the midwest, I listen to audio books
> or old classics on them.
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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Re: [EVDL] NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Phil,
NOPE! The *correct* designed EVSE will have a test circuit that indeed
generates a GFCI test fault current but *only* in the EVSE's GFI
circuit, not in the upstream 240V connection.
The reason that an EVSE often trips the upstream GFCI is not due to
the EVSE but due to the *huge* capacitance in the EV charger inlet
which can easily cause enough fault current, just like many lab
equipment has large filter capacitors on their AC input to filter out
EMC, but at the same time tripping the GFCI to the point that you
cannot even leave some bench power supplies plugged into the wall,
even turned off, because their AC filters will happily cause more than
5mA current through their heavy capacitors and nuisance-trip the
breaker.

For the EVSE to test their built-in GFCI protection of the
*downstream* charging cord, all that is needed is that the test
circuit connects a wire (and resistor) across the 2 phases of the 240V
so that there is *no* upstream fault current, and then route the test
wire through the GFCI detection Current Transformer, so that a one-way
fault current is introduced of between 20-30mA, while verifying that
the detection circuit indeed trips on the application of the test
current. (The GFCI Current Transformer has both phase wires of the
charging cord routed through it, so that any difference of more than
20mA between the two wires - even at 40A or more of charging current -
will cause a trip of the GFCI detector and disconnect the relay
contacts that feed the 240V input to the charging cord.)
In the JuiceBox charging station I only used a 4mA test current, so I
could use a smaller and cheaper limit resistor, by looping the test
wire 5x through the GFCI CT coil, so the 4mA was counted 5 times to
yield the 20mA test current injection to verify the correct operation
of the GFCI after *every* charging session, as well as during
boot-selftest. You might notice that the JuiceBox (at least the
plastic JuiceBox 2) is also UL approved for operation on 110V and it
was a challenge to make the GFCI test circuit still generate a 20mA
test current no matter what voltage that the EVSE received. If you
figure it out, let me know what you found and I will tell you if you
got it right.
Cor.

On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 12:14 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
>
> IIRC, J1772 specs 20ma.  So it will likely put an over 20ma ground fault
> intentionally during its self test.
>
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 12:01 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > On 12 Apr 2024 at 13:35, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
> >
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed..
> >
> > Thanks Phil etc
> >
> > Sometimes the code doesn't explain why there's certain rules that appear
> > arbitrary (like the 12" cord rule).  The larger units are limited to 6'.
> >
> > Presumably the GFCI trip current (inside a EVSE) is higher (not sure how
> > much) than the 6ma (if using a GFCI panel breaker).  A large chassis like
> > a
> > car and with an internal switching supply-charger has EMI X (line to line)
> > and Y caps (line to ground for common mode RF) that will most likely leak
> > close to 6ma.  Luckily inspector 13 (here) hasn't enforced the panel GFCI
> > breaker requirement (since 2020) on 14/50s used for EV charging.
> >
> > Best regards Mark
> >
> > PS from the moderator - please try to send plain text, folks.  Thanks.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >  The phrase "May you live in interesting times" is the lowest in
> >  a trilogy of Chinese curses that continues "May you come to the
> >  attention of those in authority," and finishes with "May the
> >  gods give you everything you ask for."  I have no idea about
> >  its authenticity.
> >
> > -- Terry Pratchett
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery pack for an E-10

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Yep, best to use a (thin) conductor to tie all 3 center posts together
and the cell level BMS.
Although I have seen people chance it, depend on the low voltage
cut-off of the load and the max voltage setting on the charger and
hope the modules stay in balance...

On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 7:13 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>
>
>
> On 3/18/24 18:37, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
>
> > Note: You really do NOT need to tie the center posts to anything other
> > than a BMS.  Even with cells in parallel.
>
> In my leaf pack I had a 3 Parallel x 16 Series battery pack.
>
> I tied each of the 3 "sense" center posts together for each set of 3
> cells.  [The only thing these tied together center posts were connected
> to was my BMSbut I did tie the 3 center posts together.]
>
> How would your BMS work if it was not connected to the center posts?
> Did you connect to only 1 of the 3 center posts in my example? (I was
> worried that if I did this the bms itself would draw more current from
> one of my 3 leaf modules than the other two, causing them to get out of
> balance with each other.
>
> Jay
>
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery pack for an E-10

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Is your E10 being used in winter (snowblowing, ploughing)?
If so, see to it that you can park your E10 in a location that is not
below freezing.
Or you can heat your batteries.
Charging your (Leaf) Lithium batteries when they are cold (below
freezing) will cause them to fail quickly from something resembling
internal metallization as the chemical processes slow down enough that
the charging current cannot be absorbed quickly enough by the cells.
Just to avoid disappointment...
(remember the big brouhaha about Teslas not wanting to charge in the
cold, recently? That was because the tesla battery heater is not
actually a heater, but they re-program the motor controller to
circulate large current, causing losses which warms up the coolant,
which is used to warm up the battery - slowly.
Thus, everyone who drove their Tesla late at night, parked it empty at
their home and tried to charge in the morning, had to wait about 3
hours *while* plugged into the Supercharger, in order to warm their
battery enough that it could *start* charging. Hence the excessive
wait times.
If your DIY battery pack and charger does not regard low temps, then
you are the only one preventing your battery from destruction by
charging in the cold...
Hope this helps,
Cor.

On Mon, Mar 18, 2024 at 5:56 PM EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
>
> On 18 Mar 2024 at 12:21, William Swann via EV wrote:
>
> > I am going to make a battery pack, with Leaf cells, for an E-10.
>
> I take it you mean an Elec-Trak E10 electric garden tractor?
>
> If so, you might be interested in this discussion list:
>
> https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
>
> > Wish me luck.
>
> Good luck. :-)
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  Hypothetical median income of full-time US workers if income
>  were distributed as evenly as it was in 1975: $92,000
>
>  Actual median income of full-time US workers: $50,000
>
>  -- Harper's Index, December 2020
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>
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Re: [EVDL] 14/50 240V vs 6-50 (3 wire) receptacle for EV charge controllers

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Mark,
Modern EVSE do not use the Neutral, but early EVSE did for their
control circuit power, because a 120V power supply was cheaper and
easier to find than a 240V supply.
Today all EVSE use a multi-voltage switch mode power supply, but just
to illustrate: the first version of the Leaf convenience charger had a
120V transformer (!) inside to generate about 15V for the control
system and pilot signal.
I know, because I converted a few using a small switching
multi-voltage supply to be able to run them from a 240V outlet.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 1:29 PM Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
>
> Hi folks
> Not to stir up another firestorm again - but I was curious why a 14/50 240V 
> socket was chosen for portable EVSE charge controllers when they *don’t* use 
> the neutral wire?  The NEMA 6-50 sockets without a neutral would seem more 
> appropriate but aren’t used that often and would need a 6-50 to 14/50 adapter.
> The Enphase (microinverters) solar ground mount arrays we traditionally 
> install in our volunteer solar club tend to be about 100’ away from the 
> house, so running an additional #6 neutral adds cost but of course required 
> by code as we do for courtesy 120V 20A or 14/50 50A breakers in the remote 
> combiner box (or sub panel breaker box at solar array).
> Best regards
> Mark
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Ground presence (was: OT Solar Electrical Issues)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Yep, I made sure to use well under 1mA for the ground presence detect
to avoid upsetting upstream GFI.
Same with the built-in GFI test, I made sure to *not* introduce any
ground fault current externally for the internal test.
I heard stories that some EV Charger designers made that mistake and
had an automatic turn-off feature instead of a ground fault test.
Also, I only used a 4mA actual current to test the 20mA GFI, simply by
having 5 loops of the test wire through the GFI Current Transformer,
adding up to 20mA in effect.
Cor.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 9:59 AM Ken Olum via EV  wrote:
>
> Tesla chargers are infamous for using too much current in their ground
> presence testing, so that they trip the 5mA GFCI units.  This leads
> people to swap out their GFCIs for regular breakers, so this safety
> feature makes them less safe in the end.
>
> Ken
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues

[Cor van de Water via EV]

My experience in The Netherlands was that the PE ground was provided
by the utility in parallel to the Neutral and phase connections, no
local bonding other than that the water pipe or the steel radiant
heating pipe was bonded to the incoming ground from the utility. The
only place where the utility ground was staked was at the
"transformerhouse" since the water line coming into the house was not
metallic but typically a type of plastic, there was no grounding
through the bonding to the water and heating lines inside the house,
that was just the safety for the occupants that the water and heating
systems were grounded through the incoming ground wire from the
utility, staked at the secondary of the central transformer.

NOTE that most Norway and a few smaller areas have an "IT" system:
Isolated Terra, in other words: the secondary of the transformer is
*floating*. Ground is staked but not connected to Neutral. Each of the
phases can have any ground potential between 0V and 400V, depending
only on faults in the system, but the advantage is that you can have a
single ground fault in the system WITHOUT losing power. This was seen
as an advantage for Hospitals and apparently was used for most of
Norway. This make the (required for EV chargers) "ground presence"
detection impossible for Norway, so we had to add a defeat option that
could be enabled for chargers shipped to Norway's IT areas.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:52 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
>
> Most of the world outside North America, is 230-240 VAC to ground. Split
> single phase, 120-neutral-120, is essentially only in North America.
>
> Normal circuit breakers are only single pole and only switch the live
> conductor. It is not common to find a circuit breaker that cuts the
> neutral as well as the live conductor. In the US, a two pole breaker is
> feeding a 240 circuit, and each conductor (black and white/red) are 120
> Vac to neutral. The 240 v appliance may not have need of the neutral
> conductor.
>
> In the the US and Canada, the neutral conductor is connected to the
> ground (earth) conductor ONLY in the main (first in line) service
> equipment ("panel"). The ground rod conductor and the plumbing bond
> conductor(s) also are connected at the main panel. Everywhere else the
> neural and ground are kept separate. This is the general practice in
> most of the world.
>
> The neutral coming from the utility is indeed grounded in North America.
> It is also grounded in most of the rest of the world. It kind of has to
> be, if you think about it. The utilities often sink ground rods and run
> a ground wire here and there. They do this at least in one place near
> the step-down transformer serving the branch. However, after it branches
> to different houses on the same branch, they each connect the neutral to
> a ground rod conductor in each of their main panels.
>
> What is interesting is that the live (hot) conductor in North America is
> the black colored one. Most other places, the black is neutral (ground
> potential).
>
> The US has, by far, the world's thickest electrical code book. :-)
>
> In NZ, they routinely run 10 amps through 1mm^2 wire. (You are allowed
> to put up to 16 amps depending on insulation type and installation
> methods.) This is equivalent to a 17 AWG wire. The wiring is much
> thinner in the rest of the world than it it is the US.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
> On 3/12/2024 12:51 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> > On 11 Mar 2024 at 20:33, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:
> >
> >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at least some of the non-us
> >> households ONLY have 240 volts (i.e they don't bring 480 into the
> >> panel and have split transformers like we have but rather they
> >> groundone leg as a neutral)
> > I don't know about other places, but France doesn't have an equivalent of
> > the US split phase system.
> >
> > It's 400 / 230 volt 3-phase. Older and/or larger houses often have 3-phase
> > installed, especially if they were once farms or businesses. Newer houses
> > usually just get one phase and neutral.
> >
> > You can request 3-phase from the utility, and charge your EV at up to 22kW,
> > if the onboard charger allows.  (32a * 230v * 3ph) But the cost will be
> > higher.
> >
> > Circuit breakers are always double-pole, so they open both hot and neutral.
> >
> >> That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v 
> >> above
> >> ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and neutralleg.
> > Yep, hot and neutral.  For a 3-phase installation, 3 hots and a neutral.
> >
> > As I understand it, the neutral isn't grounded ahead of the house. Maybe
> > that's why a lightning arrestor is usually fitted to the main panel.  But
> > the neutral IS grounded at the main house service entrance, so the potential
> > to ground is 230v.
> >
> > Hence a 500ma main RCD, and smaller 30ma RCDs on each panel bus.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to 

Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I remember that the city of Delft had its power distributed in a
similar fashion as the USA, with two phases at 115V to ground and
outlets wired with the two phases. Before the end of last century,
when The Netherlands was also driving to eliminate all overhead
wiring, even from rural areas, they also converted Delft from this
center-grounded system to the usual single phase 230V to ground &
Neutral, so they could use 3-phase distribution.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 7:11 PM Steve Gaarder via EV  wrote:
>
> As I understand it, 110 volts was chosen because an arc light operates at
> 55 volts, and thus two of them in series would work well.
>
> I believe Europe started out at 110/120, and moved up to 220/240 to reduce
> the need for copper, esp. after WWII.  When I lived in Europe in the
> 1960s, I traveled to places in France and Italy that had 110/120.  And I
> recall reading a posting from a German electrical worker describing what
> they did to convert a village from 110 to 220.
>
> And here's a writeup in voltages in Italy:
> https://samuele963.github.io/electrics/history.html
>
> Steve Gaarder
>
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2024, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
> > As far as I know, Edison decided on 110VDC (That's why people in the US
> > constantly refer to it as "110" when it's not been that way for over a
> > century), as that was high enough to make conductors reasonable, but not
> > terribly lethal, (so he claimed) light bulb filaments could bear it, and
> > switchgear could handle the arcs.  When AC came along, to preserve the same
> > light bulbs, they matched Edison's DC. (RMS)
> >
> > It started off as 110VAC, and slowly rose over the years until it was made
> > official in ANSI C81.1 in the early 1950's as 120VAC.
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Since *all* last-mile power lines are underground in Netherlands (and
in many EU countries) the common way to distribute power is to send
mid voltage to a "transformerhouse" which resembles a garage or
sometimes a small house in a residential neighborhood, which houses
the transformer to step the mid voltage down to 400V (3x 230V) as well
as the breakers and other switchgear for the local distribution.  This
transformer's secondary center (Neutral) connection was isolated from
the mid voltage and grounded (bonded, staked) to provide a grounded
Neutral even though the PE ground was ALSO carried from that
transformer into each house, so a fault in the Neutral down stream
would still not cause a dangerous situation. In Europe the housing of
anything is NEVER connected to either of the power wires, because even
today most EU outlets (not in all countries) allow you to freely
rotate the plug 180 deg anf plug in with the two wires reversed, so
you always have to account for either wire to be phase or Neutral.
The switchgear in the transferhouse included more than just breakers:
the one nearest to one house I lived in could be heard to produce a
loud *clang* at dusk and then the street lighting in the whole
neighborhood came on. This transformer provided this street light
circuit in addition to the 3 phase power that ran under the street and
sprouted a short branch into every home's crawl space, poking into the
utility closet and terminated at the hidden "utility fuse" that
protected the meter. Woe the person who overloaded their circuits to
the point that they blew their utility fuse (remember, typically 25A
or upgraded to 35A) and had to wait for the utility company to come,
break the seals and install a new fuse. Smaller homes typically had
between 4 to 7 circuits all fused at 16A (or in later years, breakers)
but still going to the same single phase meter and utility fuse... So,
no turning on your washing machine AND your dryer AND your dishwasher
AND boiling a kettle AND the microwave... because then darkness
ensued, even though the individual 16A circuits could easily carry
that, the limit was built-in at the utility entrance.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:55 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
>
> The difference is historically whether there has been a bonded neutral.  My
> understanding is this wasn't common in EU until more recently.  (Bonded
> means a stake is driven in the ground at your house and connected to one
> side of the line that is then designated as the "neutral", meaning it has
> no voltage differential (or very little) with respect to the earth.
>
> In the US the "center tap" of the 240v transformer is what is bonded, so
> thus each leg is only 120V over the earth.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:33 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > On 11 Mar 2024 at 17:37, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> >
> > > In my homes in either Netherlands or India, only the phase was
> > > protected with a breaker.
> >
> > I have heard that that's the case in the UK also - breakers are single
> > pole,
> > and open only the hot side.
> >
> > Maybe branch circuit breakers are double pole only in France.  I think
> > that
> > historically - maybe still - there was / is no standard for polarizing
> > French receptacles. Ungrounded plugs will fit them either way.
> >
> > So it's not possible to guarantee that the shell of the E27 lamp socket in
> > my desk lamp is at ground potential.
> >
> > Again, it's like the USA many years ago, when 2-pin plugs there were
> > unpolarized.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >  We can't solve problems by using the same kind
> >  of thinking we used when we created them.
> >
> > -- Alan Kay
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 4:52 PM EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
> Circuit breakers are always double-pole, so they open both hot and neutral.

In my homes in either Netherlands or India, only the phase was
protected with a breaker.
Neutral was wired straight from the service entrance to the circuits/outlets.
Maybe that practice has changed in recent years, but I have not heard
from my family that they had to upgrade anything while they did
install EV chargers.
Now, the EV charger is likely to be required to disconnect both power
wires, including Neutral. But I have not heard about dual pole
breakers for single phase circuits there.
Cor.
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 1:35 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV
 wrote:
> That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v above 
> ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and neutralleg.

The USA 240V is a split-phase system, meaning two 120V phases in 180
deg offset, simply created by a single winding with center tap off a
11kV mid voltage line and distribution transformer AKA "Pole Pig" if
it is one of the round barrel, pole mounted transformers.
The split phase is helping to reduce the amount of copper needed to
transport the 120V, because the Neutral return current from one phase
cancels the return current from the other phase.
THat is one of the reasons that you are requested to do a load
analysis and phase balance calculation when requesting the permit for
a service panel.
So, the Neutral does not need to carry *twice* the current of the two
phases, but it needs only to be as large as a single phase, so your
copper use is 75% of a single 120V feed with double the copper in the
phase and double the copper in the Neutral return, instead you have 3
wires, each 50% smaller conductors, so a saving of 25%.

In Europe all power is 3-phase, every single home has 3 phase plus
neutral coming into the utility closet, but often only a single phase
meter gets installed, though you can get it swapped for 3 phase when
you need more power. Typically a house is provided at least with 25A
single phase 230V and in a block of houses every 3rd house is on the
same phase as your house. (babyphones that send the signal over the
power wires work best if you visit the neighbors 3 homes over)
Since all power is 3-phase and the returns of the current in the
Neutral again cancel each other out, the Neutral only needs to be as
big as one of the 3 phases, so the saving in copper is 33% as you only
need 4 wires instead of 6, or 2 wires of 3x the amount of copper, to
transport the necessary power.
That is also why upstream of the mid voltage distribution transformer,
all USA grids are also 3-phase and commercial sites are supplied with
3-phase, either 480V (3x277V) or 208V (3x 120V).
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Lee,
I have designed EVSE so you can quote me on this: The GFI limit that
(level2, AC) EV Charging Stations are designed to for the USA is 20mA.
(For EU the limit is 30mA, the same limit as the standard GFCI
breakers in EU, although there is an additional requirement to detect
6mA DC Current leakage)
Apparently the car manufacturers recognised that 5mA is not a good
limit as even 20mA can cause nuisance trips, I have dealt with a few
installations of our chargers where the GFI alerted on a problem,
despite nothing being wrong with the charging station.
The common denominator that I have seen is noise on the grid.
In one installation it was perfectly reproducible - during the day,
not at night.
That set me on the path of Solar being the cause and indeed, that was
a home that had recently installed a *lot* of solar panels, each with
its own micro-inverter.
And I found out that the solar was at the same phase as the EV charger
(this was in EU, with 3 phase power, so the customer could move his
single phase charger to a different phase than the solar and his
problems ceased).
Apparently the high frequent switching of the inverters leaked into
the phase with high enough power that the heavy EMC filtering caps in
the EV caused the charger to see a "leakage" to ground on the phase
which was absent on the Neutral wire, hence the nuisance trips of the
GFI circuit in the charger.
NOTE that GFI in an EV charging is a *very* safe circuit, because it
is required for safety certification that the GFI circuit is verified
to detect a fault current after *every* charging session or on a
regular schedule, I believe once a day. So, every charger with safety
marking has a "fault-generating" circuit built-in that causes a 20mA
fault current through the Current Transformer that detect the GFI.
Usually this is a separate wire from the high power wire, specifically
to induce the fault current without affecting the charging cable.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 12:43 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>
> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > my garage has a GFCI circuit. As a consequence, I cannot use
> > my garage to do any development work, because as soon as
> > I plug in one of my HP power supplies, even before I turn it on,
> > the heavy capacitive filtering on the AC line will trip the GFCI
> > because it indeed creates a current to ground.
>
> The easy answer is a big isolation transformer. I have some big 1KW ones that 
> I use. (If anyone needs one, I have many, holding down the basement floor).
>
> > If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
> > a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.
>
> The original idea for a GFCI was safety; to keep people from being 
> electrocuted (i.e. junior sticks a fork in the toaster with one hand to get 
> his bread out, while the other hand is resting on the grounded sink. The 5mA 
> limit was chosen as the maximum current that a normal healthy person would 
> survive, since they can let go and jump away from the source of the shock. In 
> medical settings, an even lower limit of 0.5mA was required, on the basis 
> that hospital patients may well not be able to remove themselves from the 
> source of the shock.
>
> But these limits proved to be hard to design for. So manufacturers have 
> lobbied for higher limits of 50mA. That's more than enough to kill a person. 
> Yet the last I knew, our EVs are being designed to allow up to 50mA of ground 
> leakage before their GFCI trips.
>
> 500mA for a GFCI limit? Gah! That would not only kill someone, but *cook* 
> them as well!
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
> a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.
> This is only used in industrial settings where a lower limit will
> indeed trip guaranteed.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:50 AM (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> >
> > Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a
> > lower voltage. In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over
> > about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are
> > getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal. I'd
> > definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages
> > everywhere.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> > >
> > > > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in
> > > > the world.
> > >
> > > Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere,
> > > including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South
> > > Korea.
> > >
> > > Some of them look like old USA practices. Example: junction boxes aren't
> > > usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf
> > > tubing emerges from the 

Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

As a consequence of the higher voltage, the current is lower for the
same power and where I hear a lot about electrical fires in the USA,
that is a rarity in Europe, while here in the USA I personally know of
two people who had a starting electrical fire in a power strip, one
could barely keep the flames from setting the bedroom on fire.

Going back to GFCI: my garage has a GFCI circuit. As a consequence, I
cannot use my garage to do any development work, because as soon as I
plug in one of my HP power supplies, even before I turn it on, the
heavy capacitive filtering on the AC line will trip the GFCI because
it indeed creates a current to ground. Though it is not leakage, it is
actually intentional because this is how you squelch EMC emissions on
the power line. And how you trip the GFCI. I need to run an extension
cord from a non-GFCI circuit to avoid that the lab power supply trips
the GFCI, talk about nuisance trips!

If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.
This is only used in industrial settings where a lower limit will
indeed trip guaranteed.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:50 AM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
>
> Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a
> lower voltage.   In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over
> about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are
> getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal.   I'd
> definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages
> everywhere.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> >
> > > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in
> > > the world.
> >
> > Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere,
> > including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South
> > Korea.
> >
> > Some of them look like old USA practices.  Example: junction boxes aren't
> > usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf
> > tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall.
> >
> > I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the ceiling
> > surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US wiring. It
> > appeared
> > to be a recent installation.
> >
> > Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will be
> > 6kW
> > or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years.  Spain has a lot
> > of
> > 3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for EV home charging there.
> >
> > On the other hand, as Bill says about NZ, in most (all?) western EU
> > nations,
> > the whole house is GFI (RCD) protected at 30ma leakage current.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
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> >  to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have
> >  been to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said.
> >
> >   -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: No Apple EV

[Cor van de Water via EV]

From a distance (virtually - I am physically quite close to this, but
rarely hear any real reporting about it) I get the impression that
Apple has a traffic light relation to EV development:
ON - OFF - ON - OFF
Many years ago there were local news reports about neighborhood
complaints from the industrial site near a residential neighborhood
where Apple was developing their car, about loud noise and metal work
until deep into the night (They were "ON") and then it was cancelled
and the neighborhood was quiet again, then a few years ago I heard
again about Apple pushing for their own car, now again this report
Sometimes all that is in the way of a product development is their own
management...
Cor.

On Tue, Feb 27, 2024 at 1:46 PM EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
>
> The headline notwithstanding, it sounds to me like two main problems:
>
> 1. It turns out that self driving is kind of tough to do.
>
> 2. Oops!  Who could have guessed that vehicle manufacturing might return
> lower profits than bulding stylish, high-priced luxury computers, phones,
> and tablets in low-wage Chinese sweatshops?
>
> The article also speaks of "a cooling [EV] market," but every article I've
> read that has repeated that claim is obviously talking about the US.  EV
> sales are up in Europe, and they're WAY up in China.
>
> A. Apple is an international company.  I'm not the proverbial fly on their
> wall, but I question whether that's a primary factor in this decision.
>
> B. When Apple started this project, there weren't many EVs on offer.  Now
> there's lots of pretty good competition.  If they'd moved faster, they might
> be in a dfiferent place now.  So it goes.
>
> C. The expensive end of the EV market is - shall we say - already pretty
> well served.  Who needs another $100k EV?  IMO, the way forward now is in
> affordable EVs.
>
> But that's just my take on it, and I'm not an expert.
>
> On to the story itself:
>
> -
>
> Apple Inc. is canceling a decadelong effort to build an electric car,
> according to people with knowledge of the matter, abandoning one of the most
> ambitious projects in the history of the company.
>
> *
>
> The tech giant started working on a car around 2014, setting its sights on a
> fully autonomous electric vehicle with a limousine-like interior and voice-
> guided navigation.
>
> But the project struggled nearly from the start, with Apple changing the
> team´s leadership and strategy several times ...
>
> Apple also was facing a cooling market for EVs ...
>
> *
>
> Apple had imagined the car being priced at around $100,000. But executives
> were concerned about the vehicle being able to provide the profit margins
> that Apple typically enjoys on its products.
>
> 
>
> Full story:
>
> https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/apple-cancels-work-on-electric-car-shifts-team-
> to-generative-ai-1.2039986
>
> or https://v.gd/rr6J5D
>
> -
>
> Disclaimer: I'm into apple produce but not Apple products.  I've had lots of
> Jonathan, WInesap, and Braeburn apples, but the only Apple I've ever owned,
> or plan to, was a clapped-out Ipad Touch I got at a garage sale for $5.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
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>
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>  verifying irreversible transfers of value without a centralized
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>  hate the government.
>
>  -- Sarah Jeong
>
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Re: [EVDL] 156v Tech assistance needed

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Hi John,
Why do you say that unstable input power would affect longevity of the
cells? What do you think happens under driving conditions?
As long as you carefully monitor (with that BMS) that none of the
individual cell voltages do not go over the max charge voltage, you can
throw what you want towards the cells and they will happily absorb it.
Heck, you have a 280Ah pack and only 52A of charging current. As long as
the cells are not stone cold (then you must charge them slow) they will not
have a problem charging at less than 0.2 C.
The solar array is quite good as charger actually, because it behaves as
current source, following the rising pack voltage.
For the most time your pack will be at 154V (3.2V per cell) so the 172 will
be pulled down 18V when connected to the pack, this is only 10% so not a
big loss.

I know there has been quite some discussions about max charge voltage of
LiFePO4, some say stay below 3.45V while others promote goin up to 3.7V.
Read the specs of your cells carefully and make sure your BMS can stop the
charging automatically when one cell reaches max. Then, there may follow a
period of balance charging where you insert a resistor in series with the
pack such that the charge current is less than the balancing current of the
BMS.
For example if your array at ambient temperature has an open voltage of
180V and your pack is at 160V while you want to pull all cells to 3.45V
balanced for a total pack voltage of 165V, and your BMS can balance cells
at 1/2 Amp for example, the you can insert a 40 Ohms 10Watt resistor to
bridge the 20V difference between pack and solar array while allowing not
more than 1/2 Amp to flow, so the BMS can absorb (bypass) that current in
the highest cell(s) so they do not go higher and continue to charge the
lower cells at that current until they too reach max voltage cut off.
Hope this helps,
Cor.

On Fri, Jan 12, 2024, 7:21 PM John McIntire via EV 
wrote:

> Having read this list for several years now, and commented occasionally, I
> know there some electrical engineers out there. It is to you I address this
> problem.
>
> I am now the proud owner of a '96 Solectria Force which will be receiving
> a new battery made up of 48, 280A LiFePo4 prismatic cells. The Force was
> designed to run at 156v (13 lead acid batteries). My primary power source
> is a 16 panel, 8.5 Kw PV array. Max voltage under load is 43v/panel at 13A.
> There is no back up power as I am not grid tied. I do have a small domestic
> 24v Li battery to run my shop. The Force battery will be equipped with a
> robust BMS.
>
> I can configure the panels to provide 172v at 52A in full sun but I know
> that the voltage and amp will be unstable which does not promote longevity
> in Li cells. Normal circumstances have a charge controller between the
> battery and the array to even out the voltage. Normal charge controllers
> are 48v or less. I would like to find or build a buck/boost circuit that
> would match the battery.
>
> I think I could break the Force battery into 3, 16s packs, charge them
> parallel at 48v+ and then reconnect in series for discharge. I think 2
> contactors per pack along with appropriate safety devices would do the job
> but that seems cumbersome at best if workable.
>
> I am not an engineer. I do have 30 years experience with automotive
> electronics. Since partial retirement, over the past 15 years I have
> converted an S-10 and 2 tractors to run as EVs. So I am somewhat familiar
> with the concepts and pitfalls.
>
> I would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Thanks in advance.
>
> John M
>
> "Money doesn't talk, it swears"--Bob Dylan
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Would you crack your Tesla's Autopilot?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Usually the encryption keys found on user devices are not the same ones as
used to generate the encryption, just the ones to decrypt, this is known as
asymmetric encryption. The decryption key is often referred to as the
public key, it is what anyone can openly use to decrypt what you have
encrypted with your private key, this process is not for secrecy but to
guarantee that what is present was created by you. Kinda important for a
mission critical system like autopilot to know it is running genuine Tesla
code. I have used this same protection in the past in communication devices.
At military protection level the measures are a bit more serious, I once
went through FIPS 140-2 certification. Then you learn about code and keys
destroyed as soon as tampering is detected.
Here someone modified a piece of HW to respond differently. If anything
untowards happens due to the changed functionality then the creators are
responsible, not Tesla.
Not much different from someone putting different type of brakes on their
car or swapping in a different engine...
Cor.


On Fri, Dec 29, 2023, 5:25 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> The article calls it an "attack," but that's wrong.  It's a hardware crack
> that requires physical access to the car, probably a fair bit of
> disassembly, and decent technical skills.
>
> This crack would probably void the warranty. It might earn the owner
> Elon's
> wrath and punishment, maybe to the extent of having the car
> factory-bricked.
> So I doubt that many Tesla owners will try it.
>
> Still, it's not that hard to imagine that some would - some because they
> want to master the machine; some for the social media views and profit;
> some
> just because they can.
>
> If you're a Tesla owner, would you?  Will you?  Why or why not?
>
> And given the fact that physical access is necessary, does this say
> anything
> significant about Tesla's data security?
>
> -
>
> Berlin researchers hacked Tesla autopilot to unlock "Elon mode"
> Updated on: December 29, 2023 12:38 PM
>
> Three IT security researchers from Technische Universitaet Berlin (TU
> Berlin) glitched Tesla's driving assistant into activating a powerful
> "Elon
> mode" and were able to access the company's secrets, [German news magazine
> Der] Spiegel reported. Allegedly, all Tesla models are vulnerable to this
> attack.
>
> With tools that cost around 600 euros, TU Berlin students Christian
> Werling,
> Niclas Kühnapfel, and Hans-Niklas Jacob induced a short two-second voltage
> drop by 560 millivolts and rooted the ARM64-based circuit board of Tesla's
> autopilot.
>
> The voltage glitch enabled researchers to extract arbitrary code and user
> data from the system, including cryptographic keys and important system
> parts, allowing them to reconstruct how it works ...
>
> The "Elon mode" ... allows Tesla vehicles to self-drive without any driver
> input or monitoring ...
>
> [The modification] could also enable premium features for free ... [and]
> requires physical access to the circuit board, removing and reinstalling
> it
> without damage, and soldering skills.
>
> Full story:
>
> https://cybernews.com/tech/berlin-researchers-hacked-tesla-autopilot/
>
> Original Der Spiegel article
>
> https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/gadgets/tesla-berliner-hacker-knacken-den-
> autopilot-a-792d7095-e7ce-4ead-96af-11feec00761a
> 
>
> Unfortunately the Speigel article is paywalled.  Here's another
> open-access
> story based on that article.
>
> https://24hoursworlds.com/automobile/611051/
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
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>  old. A correspondent who has tried it says he would prefer to die
>  young.
>
> -- The Elk Falls Journal, 1905
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: More bad PR for Tesla

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Number of accidents per driver per *brand*, really
Without even compensating for miles driven? Or for model?
That makes just barely more sense than me saying that I use 5 Amps per year.

Of course Tesla vehicles are used *many* more miles (in long daily
commutes) than other vehicles, especially with gas so high in cost.
And of course, with the excessive acceleration, it is possible to
drive it in a manner that it not always fit for circumstances, even if
it is simply
someone merging into another lane and not expecting the Tesla to
suddenly be in that spot instead, because it "instantly" accelerated
to be next to the merging driver...
Or, as I have seen here in the Bay Area where it started raining
heavily yesterday - some Tesla drivers still operate as if the road is
dry, using their 4-wheel dual motor capabilities to the max while
other drivers cautiously press the accelerator in their front wheel
driven car, losing traction on the smooth crosswalk paint, to remind
them to add safety margin to their driving.
Heck, at least twice now have I felt my Leaf slide a little sideways
when steering while passing a crosswalk. I fear that the few speeding
Teslas (most did adapt to the conditions) when encountering an
emergency (stop or evasive move) they will have no margin left and
feel the consequence...
Just like a musclecar might. Heck, I did spin out my BMW because I was
not used to the combination of the power available and the rear wheel
drive...
Since most musclecars are part of a brand that has a lot of boring
sedan sales, it does not show that the sports model might also have a
problem, because it disappears in the minivan or sedan statistics.
Subaru is loved by quite a group that likes to ralley and while they
typically are experienced, there may be enough uninitiated or showing
off that the whole (small) brand is affected.
I know quite a number of Subarus that are souped up, but in contrast
to other groups, they usually do not make their cars very loud, it is
more distinguished public but having plenty power on tap anyway, so
that may skew the statistics in the smaller total number here.
Cor.
Cor.

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 12:55 PM EV List Lackey via EV
 wrote:
>
> Tesla is getting some rough PR lately.
>
> Obviously, there's the "every vehicle" recall that isn't, but is really a
> remote reprogramming.
>
> Then this article landed yesterday:
>
> "Tesla drivers are the most accident-prone, according to a LendingTree
> analysis of 30 car brands. It found that Tesla drivers are involved in more
> accidents than drivers of any other brand. Tesla drivers had 23.54 accidents
> per 1,000 drivers. Ram (22.76) and Subaru (20.90) were the only other brands
> with more than 20 accidents per 1,000 drivers for every brand."
>
> Full article:
>
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevebanker/2023/12/18/tesla-has-the-highest-
> accident-rate-of-any-auto-brand/
>
> or https://v.gd/y2FFnb
>
> Forbes is pretty careful to not speculate on why.  But you can bet that many
> people outside the Musk-o-verse will say "it's because of Autopilot," while
> Musket-heads will be more apt to say "not enough owners using Autopilot."
>
> Eh, I'm staying out of it.
>
> What I wonder about, and WILL mention, is something that the original source
> sort of takes a whack at and glances off of.
>
> Teslas tend to be powerful vehicles.  I don't know whether I can say too
> much about this since I don't own one and have never driven one, but I do
> know that while ludicrous (Tesla's own word) acceleration can sometimes get
> you out of trouble fast, it can also get you INTO trouble really fast.
> Especially if you're young and hormone-addled, and/or drunk or high, and/or
> just not that skilled a driver.
>
> Somehow I strongly doubt that any Tesla software update is going to change
> that part of the vehicles' behavior.
>
> Also, off topic - Ram, yeah, I can see that - but Subaru???  Really?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Battery Testers

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I use one of my current limited lab supplies, set it to a safe current like
30 or 100mA and the voltage to the max that the battery would charge to,
then I connect it to the pack that refuses to charge, after verifying with
a voltmeter that the external battery connections are not disabled by the
BMS, then I charge just enough that the original charger recognises the
pack again and let it finish the charge cycle.

If the BMS has disabled the external contact and you can open the pack
enough to reach the cell terminals then you can find the cell(s) that are
below minimum, charge them enough that they are well above minimum and pray
that your BMS does not permanently disable on the first time going below
minimum voltage. You will know when all cells are above minimum and see if
the BMS has re-enabled the external battery contacts...

On Sun, Dec 10, 2023, 4:05 PM Peter Eckhoff via EV 
wrote:

> I have a few Ryobi power packs that won't charge.  This got me to
> thinking I would like to get into trouble shooting and battery
> testing.  I've found a few sites on Youtube that discuss trouble
> shooting and battery testing.  A number of sites use a Atorch DL24 [P]
> such as this channel:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQQJHwC4hOY=20s
>
> Are there any battery testers that you have used and could recommend?
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] Shorting a A123 26650 Cell

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Remember the crazy PSA to replace your (almost new, what a waste!) smoke
alarm battery every half year?
True story: one guy did that faithfully, collected all those nearly-new
batteries for recycling in a baggie and... set his house on fire. Note that
this were the puny 9v cells!
I always regard that PSA as bollocks, monitor my smoke alarms and when they
beep or stop blinking the red light once a minute, *then* I replace the
battery. Happens maybe every 5 years, so I am not trashing cells that are
more than 90% capacity.
Again: what an organised waste!
Cor.

On Tue, Nov 28, 2023, 1:59 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:

> When I was a kid, my hobby was mostly electronics, (big surprise, right?)
> and I had a perpetually messy room (lab) that drove my Mother crazy.
> (Again, big surprise?)  She constantly threatened to "go in there, clean it
> up and throw it all in the trash".   One pre-teen day while I was at
> school, she finally made good on that promise and went in with a big black
> trash bag and started throwing "all that junk" into it.  When I came home
> all the windows were open (unusual) and the whole area smelled really
> toxic.  When I went in, it was even worse, and my room had about a 4 foot
> circle of burnt wet carpet and black melted junk all over it.
>
> She had thrown away a small NiCad pack and it somehow shorted out in the
> trash bag before she could haul it out, and caught fire.  She was able to
> put it out (luckily) with some water.I was grounded for a month.   She
> never attempted to touch my mess ever again though.
>
> Lithium batteries are no joke.  I personally have had more than one
> accident and many close calls despite being well aware of the danger and
> being very careful.   Sometimes it's not even in your control (like a cell
> defect).   If you often use low-cost products with built-in Lithium, get a
> fire-safe bag and charge in it, and for large things try and do it
> outside.   I now have a covered carport-type area away from the house which
> I will use for any even slightly questionable battery activities.   Also,
> have good quality smoke detectors, preferably ones with wifi connectivity
> so you get an alert if something happens, such as these:
> https://amzn.to/3Glx8Nb   Yes, Expensive, but way less than a homeowner's
> insurance deductible.  One of these really saved an already bad accident I
> had from a total disaster.
>
> On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 1:37 PM Mark E. Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> >
> >
> > I remember in 2013 I was designing a UPS for my employer and had a A123
> > 26650 cell on my desk & walked away for a couple minutes to pee and when
> I
> > came back there was a crowd around as it apparently rolled into a spiral
> > notebook and set it on fire!
> >
> >
> >
> > Fairly embarrassed, but the other engineers were impressed by the amount
> of
> > current/destruction a single cell could do!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Have a renewable energy day,
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark E. Hanson
> >
> > 184 Vista Lane
> >
> > Fincastle, VA 24090
> >
> > 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> >
> > REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> >
> > Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
> >
> > UL Certified PV Installer
> >
> > My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
> >
> > REEVA Demo:   http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
> >
> >
> > <
> >
> https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd89
> > 75b8d/signature
> > <
> https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd8975b8d/signature
> >>
> > Fincastle Solar Weather Station
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2023 21:15:13 -0800
> >
> > From: Cor van de Water  >  >
> >
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  >  >
> >
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] I destroyed an A123 26650 by shorting to the case.
> >
> > Message-ID:
> >
> >
> >  >  mxa7mthkcohc_q04fhwco-jy6m7ltv...@mail.gmail.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> >
> >
> > Lawrence, when I removed some of the cells from that pack that you picked
> > up, I cut the straps with heavy duty scissors.
> >
> > One time I accidentally shorted the cell I was removing while cutting and
> > the current was large enough to bite a chunk out of the scissor blades...
> >
> > These are *very* low resistance cells, so the short circuit current
> > consequently is very high, even at the low 3.5V of a single cell.
> >
> > Cor.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- next part --
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> > >
> > ___
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> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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> >
> >
> -- next part 

Re: [EVDL] I destroyed an A123 26650 by shorting to the case.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Lawrence, when I removed some of the cells from that pack that you picked
up, I cut the straps with heavy duty scissors.
One time I accidentally shorted the cell I was removing while cutting and
the current was large enough to bite a chunk out of the scissor blades...
These are *very* low resistance cells, so the short circuit current
consequently is very high, even at the low 3.5V of a single cell.
Cor.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 9:06 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> https://youtu.be/zEXx_2Caefc?si=j66-Advfy42A7-Aq I wasn't too careful
> separating some cells. Nicked a few. Used in flashlights they are awesome.
> However,  I nicked a few near the base and my hacked flashlight spring
> shorted the cell. Smoke and brown fluid.  Oops. I will tape nicks and avoid
> making them in the future. Also use an adapter of pvc for extra safety.
> Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] leaf 120 volt charging

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Most EVs do it right and measure or calculate the AC input current and
match it to the pilot signal's advertised max allowed current draw.
Some EVs, I forgot which brand but we did detect this while testing the
JuiceBox compatibility with all known brands of EV, but there were that
appeared to determine the input voltage, multiplied that by the allowed max
current to get the allowed power draw and then apparently programmed their
charger to draw that power. Likely they only had accurate voltage and
current measurement on the battery DC side. The problem was as the load
increased and the voltage dropped, the constant power draw caused the
current to go up, so the weaker the circuit, the higher the current draw...
If anyone remembers the Vectrix freeway capable scooters: this problem is
what blew all Vectrix chargers when charged with a long extension cord,
which is almost unavoidable, because who can park their scooter next to an
outlet?

Note that some versions of the Nissan Leaf convenience charger did monitor
the temperature of the wall plug contacts and lower the power draw when
overheating. You can recognise that variant from a very fat grey right
angle plug and the short AC cord was unusually thick, because it had 2
additional wires in there for the temperature sensor in the plug.
Cor.

On Tue, Nov 21, 2023, 9:56 AM redscooter via EV  wrote:

>   I want to know how it deals with weak circuts, like long cords, etc ?
> does it drop amerage load to keep the voltge up ? what low voltage does
> it cut off at? or how does it respond?
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Slipping

[Cor van de Water via EV]

That's why I enjoy Brother brand printers, of all manufacturers they charge
the least for their consumables.
All other manufacturers are under heavy assault of aftermarket products and
refill providers.
But I guess that a cheap car and battery rental is a viable business case
as has been shown, though not very successfull till date.
Cor

On Mon, Nov 20, 2023, 9:54 AM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> I keep thinking (and fearing) that the auto industry will start using the
> "cheap printer and expensive ink" model. In the early 1900's, Henry Ford
> observed, "If I owned the gas stations, I'd *give* the cars away."
>
> So what happens if an auto company begins offering cheap or free cars, but
> only as long as you rent their batteries, and charge at their charging
> stations?
>
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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[EVDL] Enerdel cells

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I have a total of 30 Enerdel pouch cells, with the frame that allows screw
connection for the two tabs at each side.
I believe these cells are between 17 an 20 Ah each, not sure how to verify
which version they are.
Probably 5 year old and they have not been connected for the last 4 years.
All are perfectly balanced at 3.5V.
3 of the cells have shorter tabs, either someone ripped the cells from the
clamps in the frames or trimmed them for some reason. The other 27 are
mounted in different series, parallel battery blocks with bus bars to their
frame connections.
Located in Silicon Valley.
Make me an offer before I need to go through the hassle of listing on Ebay.
Off-list please.
Target price I am thinking $10 each and preferably you take all with a
discount.
Cor.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Affordable small European EVs on the way

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I suppose we are waiting for a "Smart" size car from VW, for example if
they bring an electrified version of the Up!
That car is barely more than 11 ft long (3m 60cm)
Cor.

On Wed, Nov 15, 2023, 7:45 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> I know of at least 3 EU automakers who are planning EVs in the EUR 20k
> range
> for 2025-2026.  Alas, these will probably never arrive in the US.
>
> 1. Citroen New E-C3, a reworkikng of their long-popular C3 supermini.  In
> addition to the EV version they plan to offer mild hybrid and old
> fashioned
> ICEV models.
>
> The New E-C3 is supposed to go on sale in early 2025.  Stellantis say it
> will cost EUR 23,300 with a 44kWh LiFePO4 battery and a 320km range, and
> EUR
> 19,900 with a smaller battery and 200km range.  We'll see whether those
> prices hold up.
>
> 2. VW has been promising a 2025 EUR 20k EV for a while now.  The ID2 was
> supposed to be IT, but it looks like they'll swing wide on the price, more
> like EUR 25k.   They say they're still trying for the EUR 20k mark but it
> will be a different car.  Maybe an ID1?
>
> 3. On Wednesday (15 November 2023) Renault showed off a prototype of their
> EUR 20k entry, wearing the Renault Twingo badge.  Twingo has long been
> Renault's smallest and cheapest ICEV.
>
> It had styling echoes of the 1st generation (1992) Twingo rather than the
> current model.  This is now a thing with Renault EVs. They also have in
> the
> wings Renault 4 and Renault 5 EVs, reminiscent f even older Renault ICEVs.
>
> Renault's current CEO is Luca de Meo, the guy who gave us the rehashed
> Fiat
> 500 when he ran that company.  Are you surprised?
>
> The new Twingo will be an A-segment city car, probably built in Slovenia.
> I
> assume that it will replace the Chinese-made Dacia Spring, currently
> Europe's cheapest EV.  No info on battery or range, but they promise
> energy
> efficiency of 10kWh / 100km (160 Wh/mile)..
>
> Renault are trying to get it on the market in late 2025 or early 2026
>
> "'Twingo is the European kei car," [de Meo] said. 'It doesn't make sense
> to
> use a 2.5-ton car to move a single person in the city ... We have to go
> back
> to smaller cars.'"
>
> Full story:
>
>
> https://europe.autonews.com/cars-concepts/renault-preps-twingo-electric-city-
> car-2026-launch
> 
>
> https://v.gd/S3Q4iI
>
> In other news, earlier this month Renault spun off their EV division as a
> new subsidiary, Ampere.  IMO this might not have been the best name for it
> as it's reminiscent of the Opel Ampera, the EU version of the Chevrolet
> Volt, but who am I to say?
>
> They have pretty lofty goals for reducing costs.
>
> https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/renault-targets-11-billion-revenue-
> ampere-ev-unit
> 
>
> https://v.gd/mvzGbf
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
>  atrocities.
>
>   -- Voltaire
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] EV charger placement [bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers]

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I believe that FastNed installs super fast DCFC at existing fuel stations
along freeways in The Netherlands and is expanding to Belgium, France, UK
and Germany. I guess exactly with this reason that existing stations
already have the shops, restrooms and sometimes full sit down restaurants.

BTW, "Ned" is short for Nederland, the Dutch spelling for The Netherlands.

High power DCFC stations are also ideal locations to install large energy
storage systems, both to supply (shave) peak loads to allow a smaller grid
connection than the total aggregate charger power, but also to stabilize
grid by their grid interactive and high power interface, as well as
balancing any on-site solar generation and recharging at night/selling at
peak tariff...
Cor.

On Wed, Nov 1, 2023, 5:08 PM EV@TucsonEV via EV  wrote:

>
> Peri Hartman via EV wrote
> > The principal factor is the rate of charge. Currently, that's at least
> > 20 minutes for most cars and possibly an hour or more. You might recall
> my
> recent
> > experience with the Bolt (overall very good) where it took over an hour
> for
> 25% to
> > 85%.
>
> I might have to go to FL to take care of some family business and was
> considering driving my Tesla M3, Standard +. I went to
> ABetterRoutePlanner.com
> and put in the from/to and came up with a 2266 mile trip, total time 41 h
> 46 min
> including 6 hr 59 min charging at 23 superchargers. That's an average of
> 18.2
> minutes per stop, the longest 38 min and the shortest 9 min.
> My average charging stop is under your 20 min and even the longest, 38
> min, of
> which there were only 2, the rest being in the 25 to 13 min time, is way
> under
> your hour or more.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rush Dougherty
> TucsonEV
> 1014 E King St
> Tucson AZ 85719
> 520 240 7493
> www.TucsonEV.com
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] 'Facts' about EV's debunked

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Michael E Ross wrote:
> Yeah, unlimited is hyperbolic, but
> there is no limit in my lifetime.

I do not know if you have kids or nieces and nephews, heck even friends
with kids. Is that what you tell them if they want to know if the earth
will still be liveable in *their* lifetime?
I can't look my kids in the eye without considering what I did to try and
make their life and their future kids' still worth living.
I am afraid that "not in my lifetime" is one of the reasons we are in this
mess in the first place...
Cor.
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Re: [EVDL] 'Facts' about EV's debunked

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Michael E Ross said there in not enough copper to electrify what is run by
petrol now...

You are aware that electricity distribution does not use any copper?
Lines and transformers are all alu and I have not heard of an alu shortage.
Only the very last step of low voltage end-user infrastucture (everything
beyond the energy company interface, typically everything protected by the
final circuit breaker) is copper. So, very little related to EV charging.
Now, the EVs themselves still need some copper, slightly more than petrol
powered cars as the propulsion motor is larger than the dozens of motors
embedded in a petrol car, not to mention the (almost) miles of wiring
snaking through every car, petrol or not. I have not done a detailed
analysis, but personally I am more bothered by the fact that consumers keep
getting lured into ever bigger and complex cars, instead of one that is
just enough for their normal use and occasionally renting a better tool for
the special cases.
Establishing a majority of light vehicles on the road instead of trying to
sell everyone the heaviest duty swiss army knife of a vehicle that tries to
do everything, ending up twice as heavy and thus unnecessarily doubling
resource consumption, would greatly alleviate the pinch in constrained
resources.
If your car can be built with half the resources, it will have a better
economy so can achieve similar range and use less electric power, again
reducing the need for some distribution upgrades...
Cor.

On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 4:49 PM Michael Ross via EV  wrote:

> Just because the effort to electrify is not going to be completely
> successful doesn't mean I don't want it done. Buying land in Canada might
> be a reasonable response compared to trying to green up the whole world.
> Going electric world wide will take perhaps 4 times the production of
> copper that the earth sustains at this time. It is there, but I don't see
> humans getting it together to do it.
>
> There are all sorts of other elementary inputs that we do not
> currently produce at quantities and rates anything near what it will take
> to green up enough to make a difference. It is a bad pickle but it is what
> it is.
>
> One mitigating factor is the demographics of the world's population - it
> has the population shrinking very significant amounts in the next half
> century.
>
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 11:17 PM Michael Ross 
> wrote:
>
> > Considering the needs to maintain the manufacturing of the past decade,
> > Europe has essentially none. Germany is burning lignite, for example.
> > France has nukes to hold them together. That is about it. Norway? They
> > would rather not use petroleum, and make the right moves to avoid it.
> Norge
> > can't support the rest of the continent.
> >
> > We have shale tech and I have read there is more than 50 years worth that
> > we know about. Yeah, unlimited is hyperbolic, but there is no limit in my
> > lifetime.
> >
> > There isn't enough copper (and so on) to electrify what uses petrol now,
> > not in my lifetime. The greatest suppliers we prefer not to use - Russia
> in
> > particular. There is copper in South America, but mines don't come on
> line
> > overnight, more like over a decade.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 10:56 PM EV List Lackey via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 28 Oct 2023 at 18:10, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> >>
> >> > Europe and North America not comparable where fossil fuels are
> >> concerned.
> >> > EU has none and we have an unlimited supply.
> >>
> >> I'm not an expert on this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't
> say
> >> Europe has none.  From what I've read, Norway may not pump as much as
> the
> >> US, but it's still a significant petroleum and natural gas producer.
> >>
> >> A few other EU countries, and the UK, contribute smaller amounts.
> >>
> >> Nor do I think that it's quite fair to say that the US has an unlimited
> >> fossil fuel supply.  No nation does.  The US acts like it does, though.
> >>
> >> The sincerity is a bit suspect, but Western Europe at least makes
> >> concerned
> >> noises about reducing carbon emissions.  They're trying.  New passenger
> >> ICEVs are banned from 2035.  Already I see more EVs in this tiny rural
> >> French town than I ever saw in the medium size Ohio cities around where
> I
> >> lived.
> >>
> >> Right now the US is tentatively making carbon-control noises, but their
> >> past
> >> and their likely future direction is for them to pump it and burn it
> >> until
> >> it's gone (and we are).
> >>
> >> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >>
> >> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> >> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >>
> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >>
> >>  Blockchain is an elaborate workaround for a very specific problem:
> >>  verifying irreversible transfers of value without a centralized
> >>  authority. 

Re: [EVDL] nissan leaf fob key

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Mike,
Brands like Toyota let you add a fob with a little chicken dance of door
slamming and pedal stomping, but Nissan always requires a computer to add a
key, unfortunately...
Cor.

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023, 8:46 AM Michael A. Radtke via EV 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I don't have a Leaf, so this is a generic answer:
>
> Buy one of the cheap fobs from ebay or amazon.
>
> A locksmith will program it for about $25-$50.  He needs your car to do
> so.
>
> OR
>
> Most cars let you program the new fob yourself if you have 2 original
> fobs. The instructions of how to do this may be in your owners manual, a
> shop manual, or a google search.
>
> Mike
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf headlights cover replacement saga

[Cor van de Water via EV]

How about using one of the headlight cleaning kits that wears a thin layer
off, I have had great experience with that on cloudy Prius and Leaf
headlights.
Cor.

On Sat, Oct 14, 2023, 7:06 PM Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:

> Hi folks
> I ordered on EBay a couple headlight assemblies for my cloudy 2013 plastic
> lenses to replace.  They were $250ea led versions but the left side was 10
> pin connector and the right 8 pin. Both of my halogen headlights were 6
> pin.  The internet showed how to hack into the wiring harness, add a relay
> and solder splice in to the newer design.  Since hacking the existing
> connectors would void the return policy, I opted to just return it but
> shipping via UPS was $150 back to California.  Does anyone know of a cheap
> Leaf cover head light replacement ?   I don’t want to put $1K+ into a 10
> year old vehicle worth less.
> Best regards
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Bolt road trip

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Interesting!
We did that trip (visit Boston, then take a few days to explore Cape
Cod) a year ago, also with a rental. I got a nice efficient ICE one
but had not considered changing that to an EV as I am unfamiliar with
the area and did not yet know what we were going to do (trips
depending on mood and weather). Great to hear it did work out for you!
Cor.

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 9:17 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> I just finished a road trip in a Bolt rental car. Went round trip from
> Boston to Cape Code. I'm thinking some people would like to hear how it
> worked to take a vacation (wedding and other activities) in a Bolt.
>
> Overall, I was very pleased with the car. It was quiet, adequately
> powerful, and the battery has plenty of range for that trip - about 100
> miles each way.
>
> There are no level 3 chargers in Cape Cod, so we had to find places to
> leave the car for a few hours and do something else. Fortunately, there
> were several level 2 chargers in Orleans, near where we stayed. I was
> able to charge there several times while taking nature walks or eating a
> meal. It worked out pretty well.
>
> It would have been better if the rental agency had provided a 120V cable
> as we could have charged at our accommodation. Next time I'll be
> thinking about that.
>
> The rental agency expects the car to be returned with 80% charge. That
> was the real challenge. The Bolt fails miserably, as I think most people
> know, at level 3 charging. It took about 1h20 to charge from about 25%
> to 85%. That is substantially slower than most other contemporary EVs.
>
> So, I think the Bolt makes a great car to take on short road trips but
> probably not on longer ones, since you will need to charge for 1-2 hours
> every so often.
>
> The only other thing I would mention is the damned head rests. They
> aren't reversible like in most cars. For me, they force my head too far
> forward, which causes back slump and neck pain.
>
> All in all, I'm pleased we drove an EV rather than an ICE. And our
> friends enjoyed rides in it, too.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Anybody in USA interested in 400VAC 11kW EV charging modules?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Last chance for anyone on the list to grab one or all four of these
CAN bus controllable air cooled EV charging AC/DC conversion modules.
Together they make a cool 100 Amp 500V 50kW charging station power
converter. No offer too low, I just hate to see brand new electronics
go to waste!
Incidentally I am also looking for a new job, preferably in or around
Silicon Valley. Experienced (staff) System Engineer or HW/FW Engineer
with knowledge of EV Charging, battery management, solar, wireless and
a whole bunch other technologies. Send me a private email if you have
a suggestion. For some background on myself, here is my
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cor-van-de-water-626b8/
Cor.

On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 6:48 PM Cor van de Water
 wrote:
>
> I ended up inheriting 4 modules that are a standard charging module
> for European 3-phase 400V and can deliver up to 550V DC output. They
> are an older version of this module:
> http://www.pr-electronics.nl/media/documenten/10kW_Charger_datasheet_V22.190918.164023.pdf
> Since they are now located in Silicon Valley and the default voltage
> here is either 208V or 480V, a transformer is necessary to use them in
> USA.
> They were sent to me as part of a project to create a 100+ Amp DC fast
> charging station but that never got developed, so I ended up with
> these 4 modules.
> Maybe it is worthwhile to ship them to Europe, though they are pretty heavy.
> All are in their original shipping boxes straight from PRE factory.
> Can send pics on request but essentially what you see in the datasheet
> is how it looks.
> Serial/model numbers:
> 19030002-120382
> 19030003-120382
> 19030007-120382
> 19030009-120382
> If nobody is interested then I will probably throw them on Ebay.
> Prefer if someone takes all 4 but will entertain just one or two, make
> me an offer.
> Cor.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 3000lb of metal, parked

[Cor van de Water via EV]

The Tesla owner parks her Model 3 in her *garage* and insists that she
can't drive it because it does not have Supercharging availability and
thus is worthless.
Every EV'er with even a minimal experience in charging will see the
fallacy presented here. Call it lying if you will.
Apparently the battery of the Model 3 needed replacement and the car
was not new, so it is likely that this person had experience with
charging and was pissed off with Tesla
(which I understand perfectly, my Model S also involuntarily lost Free
Lifetime Supercharging capability due to a relatively minor fender
bender that affected enough cosmetic body panels that the vehicle was
declared salvage, without affecting anything related to charging, but
alas, Tesla is very eager to remove Supercharging privileges, even if
they were essentially purchased in the sale of the vehicle.
What is even more painful is that *all* DC Fast Charging is disabled
in order to remove SuperCharging, so even public charging is limited
to the speed of Level 2 AC chargers...)
Anyway, all my EVs have no Supercharging and while it can be
convenient at times, I manage to drive my EVs fine after parking them
in my garage and charging at home, or at work. Either will result in
perfectly usable vehicles, but that will not grab headlines like the
claim of this person saying that they have a pile of unusable metal in
their garage.
Apparently the media attention solved the problem though so I hope she
is happy now.
Cor.

On Sun, Sep 17, 2023 at 12:40 PM EV List Lackey via EV
 wrote:
>
> On 17 Sep 2023 at 14:06, paul dove via EV wrote:
>
> > Stories like this are so unbelievable.
> > I have never communicated with Tesla via email.
> > Any issue with my vehicle was handled via the phone app.
> > They always respond in a timely manner
>
> Are you seriously suggesting that the Tesla owner in the news report is a
> liar?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  There'll be one corporation, selling one little box.
>  It'll do what you want, and tell you what you want,
>  And cost whatever you've got.
>
>-- Greg Brown, "Where is Maria," 1996
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Assuming this team drove their car continuously (24h) for those 6 days
in the smooth concrete-floored hangar, then they did an average 11 MPH
which means that fact alone got them 25 times lower wind drag than at
55 MPH. They also likely used extremely narrow and high pressure
tires, again slashing rolling resistance to a tiny fraction - a
situation close to as if they would be rolling steel wheels on rails.
The reason for using GaN transistors in the controller is another
efficiency optimization, even though GaN is still finicky and not as
reliable as SiC and lastly the size, weight and extreme streamline
show that this is an academic achievement...
I do still like to occasionally hyper-mile my 10 year old Model S and
see the mi/kwh top 5 when staying at or slightly below 55MPH on a long
commute at a quiet road.
Cor.
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[EVDL] Anybody in USA interested in 400VAC 11kW EV charging modules?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I ended up inheriting 4 modules that are a standard charging module
for European 3-phase 400V and can deliver up to 550V DC output. They
are an older version of this module:
http://www.pr-electronics.nl/media/documenten/10kW_Charger_datasheet_V22.190918.164023.pdf
Since they are now located in Silicon Valley and the default voltage
here is either 208V or 480V, a transformer is necessary to use them in
USA.
They were sent to me as part of a project to create a 100+ Amp DC fast
charging station but that never got developed, so I ended up with
these 4 modules.
Maybe it is worthwhile to ship them to Europe, though they are pretty heavy.
All are in their original shipping boxes straight from PRE factory.
Can send pics on request but essentially what you see in the datasheet
is how it looks.
Serial/model numbers:
19030002-120382
19030003-120382
19030007-120382
19030009-120382
If nobody is interested then I will probably throw them on Ebay.
Prefer if someone takes all 4 but will entertain just one or two, make
me an offer.
Cor.
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Re: [EVDL] Anybody want a prototype 1400A 600V DC controller?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

FYI, the same Power Ring Capacitor as in the controller, I am also
selling on Ebay separately, so for who wants to make an efficient,
very powerful and low inductance controller:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/285421911378
I believe that list member Paul once published a 3-phase motor
controller for Leaf (?) motors with a Ring Capacitor.
Cor.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 6:37 PM Cor van de Water
 wrote:
>
> Has water-cooled IGBT with driver and a large ring capacitor, in and
> output via SB-350 Andersons with 2/0 cable.
> Spec says 1400A peak, 500A continuous.
> Has been on the shelf since about 10 years ago. Originally designed by EMW
> Pick up in Silicon Valley.
> Make me an offer, any accepted. NOTE: I can't test it, but it was in
> operational state when put away. We can discuss warranty if your offer
> depends on working parts.
> I can look up the spec of the ring capacitor but cannot see the part
> nr of the IGBT.
> The ring cap is 9" dia and I believe 800VDC.
> Pics on request.
> Cor.
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[EVDL] Anybody want a prototype 1400A 600V DC controller?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Has water-cooled IGBT with driver and a large ring capacitor, in and
output via SB-350 Andersons with 2/0 cable.
Spec says 1400A peak, 500A continuous.
Has been on the shelf since about 10 years ago. Originally designed by EMW
Pick up in Silicon Valley.
Make me an offer, any accepted. NOTE: I can't test it, but it was in
operational state when put away. We can discuss warranty if your offer
depends on working parts.
I can look up the spec of the ring capacitor but cannot see the part
nr of the IGBT.
The ring cap is 9" dia and I believe 800VDC.
Pics on request.
Cor.
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[EVDL] EVnetics Soliton 1 controller

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Anybody interested in a used Soliton 1, which is a 1000 Amp DC motor
controller?
Pics on request, make me an offer.
Located in Silicon Valley.
Cor.
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Re: [EVDL] Tires

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Is there an Americastire.com store near you?
Looking up *size* on their website, they have no 145 wide tires in 13"
but for 155/80-13, I see 5 *available* tire models starting from $50 a
tire.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 5:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
>
> On 21 Jun 2023 at 18:05, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
>
> > I'm finding it difficult to find any 13" tires
>
> You might try here:
>
> https://www.tirerack.com/tires/sizes/results.jsp?diameter=13
>
> I see Vredestein 145/13s and Kumho 155/13s.  No clue about their rolling
> resistance.
>
> Don't bother with the homepage.  It's been dumbed down and thinks that it
> knows better than you what you need.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  Imagine if workers hired consultants and "compensation
>  committees," consisting of their peers at other companies,
>  to recommend how much they should be paid. The result would be
>  -- well, we know what it would be, because that's what CEOs do.
>
> -- Matthew Stewart
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 14

[Cor van de Water via EV]

For many years there have been a pair of 50kW CHAdeMO/CCS chargers on the
next street corner, but recently a bank of 350kW chargers was erected in
the parking lot of a nearby strip mall. If I am not mistaken, that is the
same speed as on the Tesla Supercharging network. As long as your car
supports it.
Note that the CHAdeMO on these DCFC is upgraded to 100kW as that standard
is a bit behind the CCS speed definition.
I drive exclusively electric since several years and have used public
charging exactly 1 time to get home in all that time (I picked up a Leaf
that had much less range remaining than my distance to home. A few miles
short is not a problem, I know how to drive to stretch the range
remaining). Besides that I have connected 2 or 3 times less than a minute
for testing purpose. All my other charging has been at work or home,
occasionally at a friend's home.
Just to say that when truly adopting the electric driving model, you also
leave the "gas station" model.

On Sun, May 28, 2023, 8:10 PM Josh Landess via EV  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Your points may have some value, but I have a 2015 Model S 70, and the
> supercharger speeds are slow enough so long road trips are only when I'm
> feeling masochistic.
>
> As to the CCS networks, I don't know to what extent they are approaching
> the excellence of Tesla's network, but I'll guess they still have a ways
> to go.
>
> On 5/25/2023 9:51 AM, Tim Economu via EV wrote:
> > Hi Lee:
> >
> > I too live in rural American, and my statement still stands. We do
> > road trips of 6k-10k every year, and definetely NOT on the
> > interstates. The Tesla supercharging network doesn't require you be on
> > the major routes, for example our favorite drive is on the west coast
> > from B.C. to southern California via highway 1 and 101. Also another
> > favorite is highway 395 from northern Wa to southern California. My
> > nearest supercharger is 1.5 hours away, I charge at home from the sun,
> > but the point I'm making is that the network is not for daily charging
> > for me, it's for the road trips, and the Tesla network makes that
> > possible, unlike every other charging network out there.
> >
> > Until the other networks get up to speed, and Tesla expands the CCS
> > option, there is really one main road trip car, and that would be any
> > model Tesla with at least 60kwh of battery pack.
> >
> > t
> >
> > On 5/24/2023 1:01 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
> >> Tim Economu via EV wrote:
> >>> Once you road trip in a Tesla, you won't ever consider another brand,
> at
> >>> least until the US gets it charging in place (5+ years)..
> >> That's fine if you live in a big city or do lots of long-distance
> >> driving on the interstates. But I live in a rural area (mid-state
> >> Minnesota). The nearest Superchargers are in Minneapolis/St.Paul, which
> >> is over 70 miles away. We rarely go there; in fact we haven't been there
> >> yet this year.
> > -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Paul, I believe the CCS adapters only work on the last few model
years, not sure why but that is what I heard, about a year ago a
colleague got a CCS adapter for the Teslas at the office and it did
not work with my S but that was likely due to the disabled DC
charging, though we read that the adapter should only work with late
models, not my 2013.
Cor.

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 1:53 PM paul dove  wrote:
>
> Sorry, poor choice of words. I meant it didn’t cost you 94k or even what they 
> go for used say in NADA. Most people wouldn’t tackle a project like this.
>
> Tesla does go by vin numbers because how else would they know who to charge?
>
> Still seems like you could use a CCS to Tesla adapter on a CCS charger.
>
>
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
> On Monday, April 24, 2023, 8:57 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
>  wrote:
>
> Paul wrote: "I suspect you got your vehicle way below market value."
> Not sure - it was listed on Craigslist (I always buy private) so
> anyone was able to make an offer, mine was just the first to be
> accepted, so I think it was market value.
> But then - what is market value for a 2013 S85 w dual charger
> (original $94k) that is now salvage, has lost Supercharging, has a bad
> battery (only bottom 15% available, range indication 37mi) needs work
> on 3 door handles, has a shattered left rear quarter window, loose
> front bumper cover, cosmetic damage to right rear fender, rear bumper
> and hatch? 120k mi. Tell me your estimation and I will tell you if I
> paid that or it was under market value. I spent $200 and many hours on
> replacing a battery module (bought a 2013 module for $1k and sold the
> *Tesla refurbished but unbalanced* 2012 module for $800; replaced the
> module myself), bought and replaced the window (ignoring the cost for
> a tube of goop), bought 3 stainless steel gears for the failing door
> handle presenters and bolted down the front bumper cover. The cosmetic
> damage is still there, but I now have a 230mi salvage but wonderfully
> driving vehicle, still with cosmetic damage and only capable of
> charging at max 20kW (240V 80A AC) so normally only 11.5kW (48A).
> Though I will likely sell it this summer as I have too many EVs
> Cor.
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 3:52 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
> >
> >  Yes, that would be if you exclusively charged at superchargers.
> > I have never done that I would guess most people charge at home because of 
> > convenience.
> > My supercharging is less that 20% of my charging.
> > I suspect you got your vehicle way below market value.
> >On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 03:45:32 PM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV 
> >  wrote:
> >
> >  In my PG service area, once you are over baseline consumption the
> > minimum charge is $0.35 per kWh. So for me that charge would be well
> > over a grand per year.
> > My 2013 S used to have unlimited free supercharging, but the previous
> > owner had a fender bender on the right rear quarter panel and as
> > result, Tesla disabled all DC Fast Charging.
> > This means that even the CHAdeMO converter that was bought for the car
> > is now useless.
> > Luckily I am an experienced EV'er so I always plan ahead and almost
> > never need public charging anyway, but last year the wife and I were
> > planning a 350 mi one way trip (Bay Area to LA) and despite having an
> > abundance of DC Fast Charge to choose from along the 5 Freeway, we
> > were looking at a minimum 1.5 hours stop for AC slow-ish charging
> > (hopefully 48A because my S has the dual charger and can go up to 80A
> > despite no public charger of that speed is available). Minimum 1.5h,
> > which I would only reach if I drive constant 55MPH (and no Airco) on
> > the I-5 which can be... hairy because ALL traffic is going 70+ there.
> > I have considered pestering Tesla to *at least* re-enable DC Fast
> > Charging, even if I can't use the Supercharging network, but I heard
> > from others that Tesla's method of disabling Supercharging is by
> > turning DCFC off in the car, which is... stupid and unnecessary, I am
> > *sure* that the Supercharging network can identify cars - how else can
> > they enable other cars to start using their Superchargers?
> > Unhappily yours,
> > Cor.
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 1:27 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
> > >
> > >  Interesting article.
> > > I have a Model S with unlimited supercharging and I have never heard of 
> > > this offer.
> > > So, how exactly is Tesla trying to get us to give up free supercharging?
> > > It appears that it is an incentive to try and sell new cars which don't 
> > > have fr

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Interesting. I may hardly ever Super-charge, but I am working on a
prototype DC charger so this would be interesting for that purpose as
well, even though I am strongly considering to sell my S this summer
because the car is too large to fit comfortably in my garage and I
have no street parking, so I rather go back to alternating between the
electric S10 (with dual Leaf pack) and the 2012 Leaf with 62kWh
pack...
The latter also being a big drive to get DC charging (3kW OBC = 20
hours charge time, ugh)
What is involved in restoring factory config? VIN?
Cor.

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 9:36 PM (-Phil-)  wrote:
>
> The car controls the supercharger.  When Tesla disables it on a car they 
> connect to your car over the cell network and remove the option for the car's 
> config that lives in the gateway.  They obviously didn't have your permission 
> to do this, so they are technically breaking the law.
>
> It would be fine if they wanted to block it at the supercharger, but that's 
> not how they implemented it.
>
> All I do is restore the factory configuration, and the car will supercharge 
> again.   I've done literally thousands of cars all over the world, and as far 
> as I've heard they are all still working.
>
> No, sadly you can't use Falcon's bundle of wires on your older S.   That's 
> only for Model 3/Y from 2017 to 2021 to retrofit the newer 2021+ charge port 
> ECU with the PLC modem that supports CCS.   You would be able to use the 
> CHAdeMO adapter or a 3rd party CCS adapter (junk) if you wanted to after we 
> restored DCFC.
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 8:30 PM Cor van de Water  
> wrote:
>>
>> Interesting.
>> I deliberately retained the original computers, to facilitate upgrades ;)
>> Would the Supercharging network not reject my car, or are you talking about 
>> re-enabling the public DCFC on it?
>> I believe a former colleague of mine "Falcon" is selling a bundle of wires 
>> to assist with this as well ;)
>> What is it you are offering exactly?
>> BTW, removed EVDL in case you don't want this all over the list, feel free 
>> to re-add.
>> Cor
>> Sunnyvale
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 7:58 PM (-Phil-)  wrote:
>>>
>>> I can probably restore supercharging on that Model S.   It originally came 
>>> with unlimited supercharging, so that would be a great enhancement to its 
>>> value.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 6:57 PM Cor van de Water via EV  
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Paul wrote: "I suspect you got your vehicle way below market value."
>>>> Not sure - it was listed on Craigslist (I always buy private) so
>>>> anyone was able to make an offer, mine was just the first to be
>>>> accepted, so I think it was market value.
>>>> But then - what is market value for a 2013 S85 w dual charger
>>>> (original $94k) that is now salvage, has lost Supercharging, has a bad
>>>> battery (only bottom 15% available, range indication 37mi) needs work
>>>> on 3 door handles, has a shattered left rear quarter window, loose
>>>> front bumper cover, cosmetic damage to right rear fender, rear bumper
>>>> and hatch? 120k mi. Tell me your estimation and I will tell you if I
>>>> paid that or it was under market value. I spent $200 and many hours on
>>>> replacing a battery module (bought a 2013 module for $1k and sold the
>>>> *Tesla refurbished but unbalanced* 2012 module for $800; replaced the
>>>> module myself), bought and replaced the window (ignoring the cost for
>>>> a tube of goop), bought 3 stainless steel gears for the failing door
>>>> handle presenters and bolted down the front bumper cover. The cosmetic
>>>> damage is still there, but I now have a 230mi salvage but wonderfully
>>>> driving vehicle, still with cosmetic damage and only capable of
>>>> charging at max 20kW (240V 80A AC) so normally only 11.5kW (48A).
>>>> Though I will likely sell it this summer as I have too many EVs
>>>> Cor.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 3:52 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >  Yes, that would be if you exclusively charged at superchargers.
>>>> > I have never done that I would guess most people charge at home because 
>>>> > of convenience.
>>>> > My supercharging is less that 20% of my charging.
>>>> > I suspect you got your vehicle way below market value.
>>>> > On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 03:45:32 PM CDT, Cor van de Water via 
>>>> > EV  wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Paul wrote: "I suspect you got your vehicle way below market value."
Not sure - it was listed on Craigslist (I always buy private) so
anyone was able to make an offer, mine was just the first to be
accepted, so I think it was market value.
But then - what is market value for a 2013 S85 w dual charger
(original $94k) that is now salvage, has lost Supercharging, has a bad
battery (only bottom 15% available, range indication 37mi) needs work
on 3 door handles, has a shattered left rear quarter window, loose
front bumper cover, cosmetic damage to right rear fender, rear bumper
and hatch? 120k mi. Tell me your estimation and I will tell you if I
paid that or it was under market value. I spent $200 and many hours on
replacing a battery module (bought a 2013 module for $1k and sold the
*Tesla refurbished but unbalanced* 2012 module for $800; replaced the
module myself), bought and replaced the window (ignoring the cost for
a tube of goop), bought 3 stainless steel gears for the failing door
handle presenters and bolted down the front bumper cover. The cosmetic
damage is still there, but I now have a 230mi salvage but wonderfully
driving vehicle, still with cosmetic damage and only capable of
charging at max 20kW (240V 80A AC) so normally only 11.5kW (48A).
Though I will likely sell it this summer as I have too many EVs
Cor.

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 3:52 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
>
>  Yes, that would be if you exclusively charged at superchargers.
> I have never done that I would guess most people charge at home because of 
> convenience.
> My supercharging is less that 20% of my charging.
> I suspect you got your vehicle way below market value.
> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 03:45:32 PM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV 
>  wrote:
>
>  In my PG service area, once you are over baseline consumption the
> minimum charge is $0.35 per kWh. So for me that charge would be well
> over a grand per year.
> My 2013 S used to have unlimited free supercharging, but the previous
> owner had a fender bender on the right rear quarter panel and as
> result, Tesla disabled all DC Fast Charging.
> This means that even the CHAdeMO converter that was bought for the car
> is now useless.
> Luckily I am an experienced EV'er so I always plan ahead and almost
> never need public charging anyway, but last year the wife and I were
> planning a 350 mi one way trip (Bay Area to LA) and despite having an
> abundance of DC Fast Charge to choose from along the 5 Freeway, we
> were looking at a minimum 1.5 hours stop for AC slow-ish charging
> (hopefully 48A because my S has the dual charger and can go up to 80A
> despite no public charger of that speed is available). Minimum 1.5h,
> which I would only reach if I drive constant 55MPH (and no Airco) on
> the I-5 which can be... hairy because ALL traffic is going 70+ there.
> I have considered pestering Tesla to *at least* re-enable DC Fast
> Charging, even if I can't use the Supercharging network, but I heard
> from others that Tesla's method of disabling Supercharging is by
> turning DCFC off in the car, which is... stupid and unnecessary, I am
> *sure* that the Supercharging network can identify cars - how else can
> they enable other cars to start using their Superchargers?
> Unhappily yours,
> Cor.
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 1:27 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
> >
> >  Interesting article.
> > I have a Model S with unlimited supercharging and I have never heard of 
> > this offer.
> > So, how exactly is Tesla trying to get us to give up free supercharging?
> > It appears that it is an incentive to try and sell new cars which don't 
> > have free supercharging rather than a ploy to take it away from current 
> > owners.
> > Especially since the only way one would know of it is if they were shopping 
> > for a new Tesla.
> > They removed free supercharging years ago as an option.
> > I doubt it swayed many people to upgrade that weren't already in the market 
> > especially because like the article said it was only on a trade-in and 
> > everyone knows you can get more for your vehicle if you sell it 
> > yourself. though maybe not $5000 so you might consider a trade in for 
> > ease if you aren't losing money.
> > To be honest though, unless you drive a lot it doesn't save much to have 
> > free supercharging.
> > I used 3561 Kwh in the last 12 months. I pay $0.11 a kwh at home and I 
> > believe the same at a supercharger in my area.
> > So, roughly $400 a year. Even if you double that to $800 a year it takes a 
> > long time to get to $5000.
> > Plus it says they were offering 6 years free supercharging to boot.
> > I don't see how this is in any way a negative but just extra incentive to 
> > upgrade if you were looking to.

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging

[Cor van de Water via EV]

In my PG service area, once you are over baseline consumption the
minimum charge is $0.35 per kWh. So for me that charge would be well
over a grand per year.
My 2013 S used to have unlimited free supercharging, but the previous
owner had a fender bender on the right rear quarter panel and as
result, Tesla disabled all DC Fast Charging.
This means that even the CHAdeMO converter that was bought for the car
is now useless.
Luckily I am an experienced EV'er so I always plan ahead and almost
never need public charging anyway, but last year the wife and I were
planning a 350 mi one way trip (Bay Area to LA) and despite having an
abundance of DC Fast Charge to choose from along the 5 Freeway, we
were looking at a minimum 1.5 hours stop for AC slow-ish charging
(hopefully 48A because my S has the dual charger and can go up to 80A
despite no public charger of that speed is available). Minimum 1.5h,
which I would only reach if I drive constant 55MPH (and no Airco) on
the I-5 which can be... hairy because ALL traffic is going 70+ there.
I have considered pestering Tesla to *at least* re-enable DC Fast
Charging, even if I can't use the Supercharging network, but I heard
from others that Tesla's method of disabling Supercharging is by
turning DCFC off in the car, which is... stupid and unnecessary, I am
*sure* that the Supercharging network can identify cars - how else can
they enable other cars to start using their Superchargers?
Unhappily yours,
Cor.

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 1:27 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
>
>  Interesting article.
> I have a Model S with unlimited supercharging and I have never heard of this 
> offer.
> So, how exactly is Tesla trying to get us to give up free supercharging?
> It appears that it is an incentive to try and sell new cars which don't have 
> free supercharging rather than a ploy to take it away from current owners.
> Especially since the only way one would know of it is if they were shopping 
> for a new Tesla.
> They removed free supercharging years ago as an option.
> I doubt it swayed many people to upgrade that weren't already in the market 
> especially because like the article said it was only on a trade-in and 
> everyone knows you can get more for your vehicle if you sell it yourself. 
> though maybe not $5000 so you might consider a trade in for ease if you 
> aren't losing money.
> To be honest though, unless you drive a lot it doesn't save much to have free 
> supercharging.
> I used 3561 Kwh in the last 12 months. I pay $0.11 a kwh at home and I 
> believe the same at a supercharger in my area.
> So, roughly $400 a year. Even if you double that to $800 a year it takes a 
> long time to get to $5000.
> Plus it says they were offering 6 years free supercharging to boot.
> I don't see how this is in any way a negative but just extra incentive to 
> upgrade if you were looking to..
>
> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:18:44 AM CDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
>  wrote:
>
>  Tesla tries to get owners to give up `unlimited free Supercharging for life´
>
> Fred Lambert | Apr 24 2023 - 12:25 am PT
>
> "Tesla is trying again to get owners of older Model S and Model X with
> unlimited free Supercharging for life to give up the perk  ...
>
> "Current Tesla Model S or Model X owners with active unlimited free
> Supercharging are eligible for 6 years of unlimited Supercharging. To
> qualify, owners must trade in or remove unlimited Supercharging from their
> vehicle and take delivery of a new Model S or Model X by June 30, 2023 ...
>
> "It´s interesting that Tesla is just now trying hard to get people off of
> the unlimited free Supercharging just as it appears to try to make
> Supercharging a profit center - something it originally said it wouldn´t do.
>
> "With non-Tesla EV drivers now getting access to the network, it looks like
> Tesla is now looking to see what the Supercharger network would look like as
> a full-scale money-making charging network."
>
> Complete article:
>
> https://electrek.co/2023/04/24/tesla-triesowners-give-up-unlimited-free-
> supercharging-for-life/
>
> or https://v.gd/vBwnXc
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> Reporter (to Mahatma Gandhi): Mr Gandhi, what do you think of
> Western Civilization?
> Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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[EVDL] Looking for Leaf BMS "LBC" from 40kWh pack

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I got a pack (the modules) from a 40kWh Leaf but not the BMS
(officially called LBC) and the voltage range of the cells is quite
different, so the car is reporting low battery before the pack is half
empty which makes it awkward to judge when it is *really* empty...
I have a large amount of 2011-2015 BMS that I want to get rid of, so
if you want to trade, I am all for it!
Cor.
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Re: [EVDL] Spark EV 2015 won't charge Code: P1EE6-00 "Unable to Charge"

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Maybe a stupid question, but it has helped some before:
Did your friend verify that when inserting the various charging
handles, that the *latch* on the handle did click down again?
If something has fallen into the inlet or if an O-ring has
mis-positioned itself, it may be impossible to insert the handle deep
enough for the latch to engage and every charging station has a
microswitch in the handle (generating the "proximity" signal) that
will prevent the car from charging when the latch has not engaged,
typically resulting in a fault similar to this "unable to charge".
Cor.

On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 10:54 AM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
>
> That means the car is not seeing the AC input to the on-board charger.  I
> know there are internal fuses that could be blown.   Could also be a bad
> on-board charger.   I'd disconnect the 12v battery for at least 2 minutes
> the reconnect, this will reset everything.  If the problem persists, then
> it will require work on the OBC.
>
> On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 8:21 AM EV List Lackey via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > On 17 Mar 2023 at 10:06, Mark E. Hanson via EV wrote:
> >
> > > "P1EE6-00" code
> >
> > I fed the above string to duckduckgo and got 3 hits related to Volts (from
> > gm-volt dot com) and to Sparks.  Maybe one of them will help. Good luck.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >  How is the world ruled, and how do wars start?  Diplomats
> >  tell lies to journalists, and then believe what they read.
> >
> > -- Karl Kraus
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
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> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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> >
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Re: [EVDL] How is tihis possible?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I wonder if these were two colleagues that got their company vehicles
and accidentally received the wrong Tesla account for their App, so
that while the keys worked on their own car, their Apps worked on each
other's cars... Simple and not surprising, but you can get a lot of
attention writing a critical article about Tesla these days.
NOTE how the guy continued to use the other guy's car instead of
returning it immediately, that suggests that they were no strangers.
Also the other guy contacting him with a laid-back response asking if
he took their car, gives me the idea that they already knew each other
before all this.
There are some question marks surrounding this article.
Cor.

On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 2:10 AM EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
>
> A Vancouver man is trying to figure out how he managed to get into someone
> else´s Tesla recently and drive off, using the app on his own phone ...
>
> https://globalnews.ca/news/9541040/bc-tesla-driving-wrong-car-app/
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  Never underestimate the ability of humans to overestimate their
>  ability.
>
> -- anonymous
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] FLA bad cell question

[Cor van de Water via EV]

My experience with a shorted cell in a battery has been spotty. The
short is not very reliable, for example a good bump of the battery can
(and has) removed the short between the plates and allow it to work
normally until the plates returned to original position or the short
grew a bit longer and shorted again.
But the main thing is that charging current is typically an order of
magnitude lower than driving, so where the battery may show a shorted
cell when charging, as soon as you start driving the short may be
overtaxed and dissolve or burn away enough to insert an *uncharged*
cell in your string, which means that now they are high resistance and
start to be charged in reverse direction. While nothing may happen,
this will make the cell HOT and can even lead to destruction of that
cell or boiling - sending hot acid out the over-pressure release. Not
sure that I want such a ticking timebomb in my pack...

On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 9:08 AM Barry Oppenheim via EV
 wrote:
>
> I have three 6V deep cycle batteries, each with a presumed bad cell
> (voltage ~4.4V charged).  Can I combine them into one 12V battery and
> charge with a 12V charger?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Barry
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Re: [EVDL] BB600 NiCd batteries for sale

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Steve,
I will let you know if I find someone on the East Coast who is
interested in local pickup instead of shipping!
Cor.

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 2:03 AM Steve Gaarder via EV  wrote:
>
> Thanks, Cor, for your commentary.  I, at least, have never had a "hydrogen
> experience" (great line!).
>
> I'm still trying to find homes for these - I'm moving to Vermont at the
> end of April and would rather not take them with me.  Any leads on people
> who might be interested would be welcome.
>
> thanks,
>
> Steve Gaarder
>
> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Cor van de Water wrote:
>
> > Steve,
> > I did not know (and could not find) their rated capacity.
> > A local EV'er liked to experiment with different pack chemistries,
> > from lead-acid via NiMH (Prius packs) to flooded NiCds and at some
> > point, over a decade ago, he acquired enough cells to fill the two
> > sides of a US Electricar S10 truck with over 200 cells and ran it for
> > a while.
> > At some point he had a Hydrogen experience which is still visible in
> > the bent-upwards bottom of the truck bed from the explosion in the
> > sealed battery box, after vigorous charging and then a spark from the
> > automotive relay that controlled the coil power to the dual Gigavac
> > contactors...
> > After finding a new cover for the battery box (under the bed) he made
> > sure never to get another Hydrogen experience by adding two exhaust
> > fans and two shrouded air inlets in the cover.
> > Eventually he ended up selling the truck to someone near Santa Rosa
> > who parked the truck, because he was not interested in driving an EV.
> > He got it to apply for the EV credit on his electrical bill, which
> > saved him big time. In 2021 I finally convinced that person to sell me
> > that truck, with the dead BB-600 still in the battery box, so I now
> > have a large number of those same cells and have managed to sell a few
> > of them but it is slow going, despite that they are perfect for an
> > electric mower/snow blower/tractor in northern (cold) areas, besides
> > their other application in airplane starter batteries.
> > Just to say that I like having a confirmation on the capacity and
> > letting everyone know that there are more BB-600 cells out there, this
> > set on the West coast.
> > Note that I also have the nickel plated interconnects.
> > Regards,
> > Cor.
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 11:02 AM Steve Gaarder via EV  
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I have a number of BB600 flooded Nickel-Cadmium batteries from an electric
> >> car project.  They are from John Lussmeyer's government surplus group buy.
> >> They are rated at 34 AH, have low internal resistance, and can be safely
> >> discharged down to zero. These cells tolerate cold well, and last a very
> >> long time. I have been running my E-15 Elec-trak on 60 of them for many
> >> years.
> >>
> >> The cells are assembled with nickel-plated interconnects into 9-cell
> >> blocks and packed 2 blocks to a box; I have 7 boxes.  I am asking $75 per
> >> box of 18 cells, which works out to $4.17 per cell.  They are in Ithaca,
> >> NY; I may be able to deliver them to Albany NY or Burlington VT if you're
> >> not in a hurry.
> >>
> >> Here's a photo:
> >> https://gaarkates.smugmug.com/For-others/Forsale/n-PGvsZs/i-c6qcVDc/A
> >>
> >> Steve Gaarder
> >> gaar...@ecovillage.ithaca.ny.us
> >>
> >> ___
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> >>
> >
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Re: [EVDL] BB600 NiCd batteries for sale

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Steve,
I did not know (and could not find) their rated capacity.
A local EV'er liked to experiment with different pack chemistries,
from lead-acid via NiMH (Prius packs) to flooded NiCds and at some
point, over a decade ago, he acquired enough cells to fill the two
sides of a US Electricar S10 truck with over 200 cells and ran it for
a while.
At some point he had a Hydrogen experience which is still visible in
the bent-upwards bottom of the truck bed from the explosion in the
sealed battery box, after vigorous charging and then a spark from the
automotive relay that controlled the coil power to the dual Gigavac
contactors...
After finding a new cover for the battery box (under the bed) he made
sure never to get another Hydrogen experience by adding two exhaust
fans and two shrouded air inlets in the cover.
Eventually he ended up selling the truck to someone near Santa Rosa
who parked the truck, because he was not interested in driving an EV.
He got it to apply for the EV credit on his electrical bill, which
saved him big time. In 2021 I finally convinced that person to sell me
that truck, with the dead BB-600 still in the battery box, so I now
have a large number of those same cells and have managed to sell a few
of them but it is slow going, despite that they are perfect for an
electric mower/snow blower/tractor in northern (cold) areas, besides
their other application in airplane starter batteries.
Just to say that I like having a confirmation on the capacity and
letting everyone know that there are more BB-600 cells out there, this
set on the West coast.
Note that I also have the nickel plated interconnects.
Regards,
Cor.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 11:02 AM Steve Gaarder via EV  wrote:
>
> I have a number of BB600 flooded Nickel-Cadmium batteries from an electric
> car project.  They are from John Lussmeyer's government surplus group buy.
> They are rated at 34 AH, have low internal resistance, and can be safely
> discharged down to zero. These cells tolerate cold well, and last a very
> long time. I have been running my E-15 Elec-trak on 60 of them for many
> years.
>
> The cells are assembled with nickel-plated interconnects into 9-cell
> blocks and packed 2 blocks to a box; I have 7 boxes.  I am asking $75 per
> box of 18 cells, which works out to $4.17 per cell.  They are in Ithaca,
> NY; I may be able to deliver them to Albany NY or Burlington VT if you're
> not in a hurry.
>
> Here's a photo:
> https://gaarkates.smugmug.com/For-others/Forsale/n-PGvsZs/i-c6qcVDc/A
>
> Steve Gaarder
> gaar...@ecovillage.ithaca.ny.us
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla slashes its car prices for speculator reasons in click bait headline says advertisers who tesla never advertise with ($35k is here) (Tesla≠TaTa)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Funny to see the new prices - especially the Model S just under 95k as
my 2013 S85 MSRP was originally... just under 95k (!)
Regarding legacy prototype cars availability - while my 2013 is
certainly not a prototype, it still shows a few of the original early
issues, such as the touch screen leaking its goop and I have already
had the eMMC replaced when it was written into oblivion last year. So,
in a sense it feels like a prototype
In case anyone is interested in a relatively cheap used Model S with
the rare dual charger (80 Amps capable, so up to 20kW AC charging) I
plan to sell it in the coming weeks, located near San Francisco.
85kWh pack charges to 230 mi range. More details off-list please
unless there are general questions about my experience with this
vehicle, I have owned it for a year now - bought specifically for
testing during the development of an 80 Amp capable EV charging
station.
Cor.

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 1:00 AM Ryan Fulcher via EV  wrote:
>
> ($35k Tesla is here)
> (Tesla≠TaTa)
>
> It's curious to classify MSRP as "Sky High" when for over a decade they
> have sold every single car they have ever produced...  It appears that the
> market has no problem paying whatever the price happens to be...  It
> couldn't possibly be that they lowered prices so that both the 5 and 7 seat
> model Y would qualify for the IRA rebates, as opposed to previously where
> only the 7 seat was an SUV ($80k max MSRP) and the 5 seat version was a
> sedan ($55k max MSRP)?  Very strange indeed.
>
> The US Model3 is $9k away and the China Model3 is $2k under that $35k price
> target...
> Also... Tesla is not beholden to satisfy some expectation we each may hold
> in our
> minds regarding affordability of a luxury commodity that is a new vehicle.
>
> I've yet to see any contract that anyone has signed that says that Tesla
> is going to deliver them a car for $35k, just as I don't expect any of the
> legacy prototype cars to actually show up in a dealers show room.
> I don't quite understand how people can justify their selective criticism
> of Tesla.
>
> Regarding Prices, these are always relative (As Of Jan 2023):
>
> Is this close enough to the $35k car for anyone?
> https://twitter.com/TroyTeslike/status/1613747950080909312
> * Tesla Model 3 RWD After US Tax Credit: $36,490
>
> https://twitter.com/SawyerMerritt/status/1613743473928343554
> • Model S:$94,990 (from $104,990,  9.5% drop)
> • Model S Plaid: $114,990 (from $135,990, 15.4% drop)
> • Model X:   $109,990 (from $120,990,  9.1% drop)
> • Model X Plaid: $119,990 (from $138,990, 13.7% drop)
>
> https://twitter.com/SawyerMerritt/status/1613740973342838784
> • Model 3 RWD: $43,990 (from $46,990,  6.4% drop)
> • Model 3 P:   $53,990 (from $62,990, 14.2% drop)
> • Model Y LR:  $52,990 (from $65,990, 20.0% drop) Long Range
> • Model Y P:   $56,990 (from $69,990, 23.0% drop)
>
> https://twitter.com/SawyerMerritt/status/1611184353106616327
> • Model 3 RWD: $33,023 (11.7% drop)
> • Model 3 P:   $48,014 ( 5.7% drop)
> • Model Y SR:  $37,826 (10.0% drop)
> • Model Y LR:  $45,103 (13.4% drop)
> • Model Y P:   $52,381 ( 9.5% drop)
>
> I have had a Leaf and a Bolt, and they are not the same as a Tesla, you
> might as well compare it to the TATA Mini or Nano: I doubt that a family of
> four would survive a 300 foot plunge off a cliff (
> https://twitter.com/driveteslaca/status/1610080891442958336) in a Tata
> Mini. You can not seriously be comparing the objectively safest vehicles
> ever tested with a (relatively speaking) "death trap" of a "glorified golf
> cart" while making a cost comparison?
> *
> https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-3-lowest-probability-injury-any-vehicle-ever-tested-nhtsa
> *
> https://www.vandi4u.com/safety/crash-test-report/tata-nano-crash-test-ratings/
> You might as well be arguing that a huffy bicycle or a citi car or a
> sparrow or a GEM is cheaper and thus Tesla cars are not affordable.  At
> least compare it to something in the same ball park like the Kia Niro,
> Chevy Bolt, BMW i4, Polestar 2, Hyundai IONIQ 5, VW ID4, etc...
>
> "In the past year, Tesla’s stock price has fallen by more than 64% as high
> inflation has curbed demand for its electric cars." -- Isn't it strange how
> their production has grown an average 50% over a multi year horizon?  Just
> as was guided for, and they have sold them all, so not sure how "curbed
> demand" can also be true, when they have never been able to build enough to
> satisfy demand.
>
> "The company is one of many blue-chip tech stocks that have been battered
> by the unhospitable economic climate." -- Try bringing up the tickers for
> amazon, alphabet, facebook, or the SP500 for the past year, you may find
> the trend lines all match.  Now here is a neat trick, zoom out past the one
> year perspective. TSLA stock is not Tesla the company.  Just as Elon is
> also not Tesla nor the teams that build and continuously innovate on these
> vehicles.
>
> I'm all for a good faith debate about the 

Re: [EVDL] Sticky EV Problem

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Tom,
Did you use heatshrink on the cables?
I know of many types of Heat Shrink that has heat activated glue
inside to adhere to the cable it is crimped onto, maybe that glue
migrated to the wire strands?
Alternatively, maybe the cable insulation expelled something, possibly
under high temp, which then dried on the connections?
Cor.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 2:10 PM Tom Jones via EV  wrote:
>
> I have a conversion that has been on the road since 2009. It has a Zilla
> 1kLV and a Warp9 for propulsion. The traction pack consists of 44 CALB
> 180 Ah cells for about 150 volts.
>
> The Zilla, hairball, two contactors, breaker and a shunt have been in an
> aluminum box for all those years. I recently had reason to open the box
> and check connections and see if there was anything going wrong. The box
> is not water tight but the contents were dry and generally very clean,
> there were no signs of any problems.
>
> When I took apart some of the high current connections, I found them to
> be covered with a very sticky clear film. That film was very hard to
> remove. Acetone and a lot of rubbing did a fair job of cleaning the
> contacts. But, it was not easy. Only the high current contacts had this
> problem. Inside the box, no other surface had the sticky film.
>
> So, here is my question, does anyone on this list have any idea about
> how that sticky film developed? Or, has anyone else ever seen this issue?
>
> Tom Jones
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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Jim, interesting short-sightedness.
Rate payers today enjoy the investments done with money from rate
payers of previous years, no?
Cor.

On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 5:05 PM jim--- via EV  wrote:
>
> David said:
> > Good luck with that.  Most of our "investor owned" utilities don't have a
> > good track record of even keeping up with current maintenance, much less
> > actually planning for the future.
>
> For the most part, at least here in California, the investor owned utilities 
> largely are not allowed to plan (or more accurately to spend) for the future. 
>  In really short summary, the concept is that rate payers today should not 
> have to pay for future projects.  That is an insanely simple explanation of a 
> very complex process, but it's a fairly accurate summary.
>
> As I understand it, most other states are at least similar.
>
>
> 73
> -
> Jim Walls - K6CCC
> j...@k6ccc.org
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I put a 62kWh pack from a 2019 into my 2012 Leaf. Took one afternoon with
simple tools, like 2 axle stands and 1 hydraulic floor jack and a ratchet
wrench.

If you can find a pack you would be happy with, then I can provide advice
how to do this.
Most important part, currently unavailable, is the CANbridge from Dala in
Finland.
Become Patreon supporter of his if you want to be in front of the queue
once he gets a new supply of CAN interface chips. Also very helpful Disqus
channel.
Cor.

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 4:13 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:

>
>
> On 11/12/22 12:38, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> Regardless, that's
> > a huge spread from, say, $5k, to replace a leaf battery.
> >
>
> My estimate would be 4-7k for a salvage 30 kwh pack + 2-3k labor, so I
> think your 5k hope is a bit low.
>
> Shifting a 30kwh to a 2011 requires special adapter cables as well as
> the man in the middle can adapter, so it's slightly more involved than
> putting it into a 2013+ model, but still not an overly complicated
> endeavor.
>
> In addition to EV rides, you may also consider the Canadian option:
> Precision Auto Service Ltd
> 22575 Fraser Hwy # 101, Langley, British Columbia V2Z2T5, Canada
> Electric Vehicle EV Service and Repair, Ask for Scott Waddle
>
>   (found here: https://nissanleafbatteryreplacement.com/ )
>
>
>
> Jay
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Re: [EVDL] leaf heater switch

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Peri,
Interestingly enough, I have only once managed to get close to 5
mi/kWh on my Tesla Model S, on a warm day without climate control I
finally got the 30 mi average to dip to 202 Wh/mi just before
encountering a hill that pushed the average up again, typical driving
is about 250 Wh/mi. On my 2013 Leaf however, it is easy to maintain a
long term average of 5.1 mi/kWh so maybe it is other factors, but that
Leaf is exceptionally frugal, this can also be seen that its "new"
battery (built in 2019) of 24kWh (~20 usable) can easily do a 92 mile
round trip, all on freeways though maintaining a 55 MPH speed in the
right hand lane. So it is not as if the average is way off from actual
consumption...
Now, I*do* agree that a Model S is a whole lot more car than a Leaf though.
Cor.


On Fri, May 20, 2022 at 11:50 AM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> Here's one of the reasons Tesla is better: lower drag coefficient. Why
> does that matter ? At freeway speeds that means more range per kWh. And
> that means a smaller battery to be competitive. And that means less
> weight, which also increases range.
>
> Cd
> Tesla 3: 0.23
> Tesla Y: 0.23
> Tesla X: 0.24
>
> Subaru Solterra: 0.28
> Toyota bZ4X: 0.26
> Audi e-tron: 0.28
> volvo xc40: 0.34
> ford mustang: 0.30
> Chevy Bolt EUV: 0.31
> Huyndai Ioniq 5: 0.29
> Kia EV6: 0.28
> Mazda MX-30: 0.29
> Nissan Ariya: 0.30
> Volkswagen ID.4 : 0.28
>
> I wish Tesla would come out with an off road model. One that has
> hydraulic (or servo) suspension lifters so that it can cruise low on the
> freeway and then lift high for avoiding rocks and ruts on mountain
> roads. Add to that tires with enough sidewall for same. In spite of
> Musk, when they do, "I'm down."
>
> Peri
>
>
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "EV List Lackey via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "EV List Lackey" 
> Sent: 20-May-22 10:29:40
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf heater switch
>
> >On 19 May 2022 at 13:17, Willie via EV wrote:
> >
> >>  I find it impossible to believe we would be where we are now without
> >>  Tesla and Musk.  That is why I am so bumfuzzled by negativism toward
> >>  both.
> >
> >Hmm, I thought I'd answered that in past posts.  Sorry if it wasn't clear.
> >I'll try again, and I hope that others will have some thoughts too.
> >
> >I'm not a researcher, but I suspect that the negativity toward Tesla EVs
> >themselves results in large part from their over-sold autopilot.
> >
> >Some owners believe Musk when he says the car is self-driving, so they do
> >stupid stuff and get into wrecks.  Tesla being the new kid in town, and high
> >profile, the news media are all over it, so everybody hears about it.
> >
> >Reliability problems may also be a factor.  Consumer Reports says that the
> >Model X was dead last for reliability in their 2021 survey.  :-(
> >
> >---
> >
> >The negativity toward Musk is also easy to explain.  He's a truly despicable
> >person, arguably a sociopath.  He has no filters, and he acts out in public
> >like a sixth grade class clown demanding attention.
> >
> >Several years ago, a friend of mine mentioned that she admired the Tesla S
> >but couldn't afford one.  Recently she was talking about getting a new (or
> >newer) car and I asked if she was considering buying a Model 3.  "From THAT
> >man?  Oh, *GOD* no.  No, no, no."
> >
> >I see similar reactions all over the web. There are thousands of people
> >who'd love to have a Tesla, if they didn't have to give some of their money
> >to Musk to get it.
> >
> >Those are anecdotes, and as any statistician will tell you, the plural of
> >anecdote is not data.  So here's some data for you.
> >
> >A recent survey found that only 25% of Democrats thought Tesla was
> >trustworthy as a company.  The trust level from Republicans, who aren't
> >known as big EV buyers, was actually HIGHER at 27%.
> >
> >The main point here is the percentage, not the politics.  I remember the
> >raised eyebrows some years back when a survey found that only 43% of
> >Americans had a positive impression of the US automakers as a group.
> >
> >And now we have ~26% trust for Tesla.  Yikes.
> >
> >But Tesla sales keep rising!  I'd argue that that's *despite* Musk's and
> >Tesla's negative images.  I'm pretty sure that it's not because of them.
> >
> >Tesla DOES make really good EVs.  You can tell, because their owners seem to
> >love them despite their reliability problems, and autopilot's attempts to
> >murder them.
> >
> >Also, here in the US, the other automakers aren't really trying, so the
> >competition is feeble.
> >
> >FWIW, in Europe, where other automakers ARE trying, VW is hot on Tesla's
> >heels in sales.  They were less than 1% behind them for 2021.  If you count
> >Skoda EV sales, VW bested Tesla by 26%. It will be very interesting to see
> >how 2022 shakes out there.
> >
> >Sorry, I've wandered off topic here.  My point is that there's no mystery at
> >all 

Re: [EVDL] new battery technology moving past the labs

[Cor van de Water via EV]

If you want to see a battery technology that is proven, safe, can take
50,000 cycles without much degradation and survive recharge cycles of
8 minutes, then look at Natron with their Sodium-Ion battery. Prussian
Blue and seawater is essentially what their battery is made of.
Unfortunately the energy identity is not ideal for cars, but
Datacenters are very happy with their high cycle life battery!
They are only a few miles from me and I visited them a few years ago,
unfortunately it never came to a cooperation, not due to Natron.
Cor.

On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 3:39 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV  wrote:
>
>  > ... politicians waving flags and clubs and pushing
>  > their nationalist belligerence.  Present batteries
>  > use raw materials that raise political concerns. ... instead
>  > of worrying so much about charging speed, electrochemists
>  > should be concentrating their efforts on developing batteries
>  > that use raw materials that are more plentiful, more
>  > widely distributed, and less expensive.
>
> Proposed solution that hits all your points, except one:
>
> Hot Air Batteries!
>
> No shortage of that on the world stage today, or ever.
>
> Sorry, no way can I see anything that involves politicians as being
> less expensive!!
>
> Think of the possible spin-off products:
>
> Bluster Batteries
> Chest-Pounding Cells
> Flag-Waving Supercapacitors
> Back-Room Deal BMS's
> Filibuster Charge Monitors
> Voter Fraud Warranty Extension Policies
> Stop The Steal Smart Phone Security Apps
>
> Many more to come!
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: NC wants to eliminate free EV charging

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Who says you'd need to provide an *automatic* pump?
Install a hand crank pump that is geared to provide an ounce of gas
every 5 minutes of hard cranking and you have met the required
install, I doubt you will lose a gallon of gas a month through that
pump, even though it dispenses at the same rate as the free electric
"pump"...
Cor.

On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 3:23 PM John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
>
> On Sat Jul 09 10:25:51 PDT 2022 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
> >> this act." ... it requires both public and private locations where EV
> >> charging is offered to provide "gasoline or diesel fuel for motor
> >> vehicles through a pump to the public at no charge," so other drivers
> >> can make use of those stations as well.
>
> I think some people should do exactly that.  Provide free Gas/Diesel under 
> the same terms as their EV chargers.
> 1KWH is say, 20c, so their fuel pump will dispense 20c of fuel an hour.
>
>
> --
>
> Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
> http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250
>
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Re: [EVDL] 1000 x solar break through. (was EV Digest, Vol 116, Issue 13)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

PV is about 15-20% efficient (turning solar power into electricity)
How do you improve that 1000 times?
Cor.

On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 6:30 PM Darryl McMahon via EV  wrote:
>
> The paper refers to a 10^3 (1000) times improvement in efficiency of a
> very specific process in the photovoltaic effect.  IMO, that won't
> translate into 1000 times improvement at the cell or panel level as
> there's a lot more going on to turn received photons into usable
> electricity.
>
> Darryl
>
> On 6/28/2022 4:07 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 10:18:04 -0400
> > From: Peter Eckhoff
> > To: Peri Hartman, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> >   
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1000 x solar break through.
> > Message-ID:
> >   
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > This is the paper the article came from:
> >
> > https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abe4206
> >
> > Likely worth a read to find out where the 1000% might have come from.
> > Might be that it's 1000% better than silicon on a $/kw basis.
> > didn't have time to read the article.  Gotta go...
> >
> > Peter
>
> --
> Darryl McMahon
> Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)
>
> Climate change is only a problem if you want to survive.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: DC plans (accidental) EV tax

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Sorry, but EVs *DO* cause damage to road surfaces and bridges, since
EVs are relatively heavy for their size, so they typically are several
hundreds of pounds heavier that the comparable sized ICE vehicle,
unless the EV maker has *also* paid a lot of attention to the weight.
The great benefits of EVs are particularly in absence of vehicle
emissions and noise, as well as a diversion of the consumption of
fossil fuels to (renewable) electricity, depending on the EV owner's
installation of solar with the purchase of the EV or other action
towards renewable energy, as well as the energy balance of the local
grid, which typically gets cleaner every year unlike ICE vehicles.
Reducing the need for fueling stations and the on-road supply network
are secondary benefits.
These days I see an increasing awareness that the only way to
significantly improve our emissions problem is electrification - of
our homes as well as transportation.
Slapping "avoided gas taxes" on EVs does not help and is certainly a
support move to keep the dinosaur alive a few months more, but there
simply is no turning back, so those things will pass and I am sure
that someone will challenge the excessive level of tax on EVs in some
places, since it does not make sense to put avoided taxes as if it
were a 15MPG 30,000 mi/y vehicle that is used by the family to cleanly
drive around the city for less than 5k mi each year. Anyway, EVs are
here to only only stay but proliferate and the oil industry already
knows, but hey those are the same guys trying to sell you "clean
coal".
To go back to the original issue: vehicles do damage the road. I
believe it is a 3rd or 4th order function of weight per wheel contact
surface, so a 2x heavier vehicle does about 10 times more damage. Now
you see that for road maintenance, it would be fair to only charge
semis and other vehicles with thousands of pounds per wheel AND a lot
of wheels, as typical small passenger vehicles do almost no damage to
properly constructed road surfaces.
Cor.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 3:20 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV  wrote:
>
> Oh yeah, a stroke of pure genius, that.
>
> Here in Oregon, EV's are nailed with double registration fees.
> Additionally there is a "road fuel tax replacement" fee that
> penalizes vehicles based on fuel economy, but not in the way that
> you'd expect. Cars that get higher fuel mileage pay MORE in fees,
> while those  which consume more pay less. I guess the thinking is
> that the poor truck and SUV owners are already paying more than their
> share by way of gas pump taxes, so have pity on them. Needless to
> say, EV's (and hybrids) pay the highest fees, in spite of causing the
> least damage to road surfaces, bridges, etc.
>
> The whole world seems to have lost it's mind in the last few years,
> so why not make everything insane, including torpedoing possible
> solutions to pollution, climate effects, oil import dependence and common 
> sense?
>
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Re: [EVDL] Why people dislike Tesla

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I own and have owned several dozen EVs, mostly Nissan Leafs, but also
RAV4EV (the 2002 NiMH variant) and a few electric trucks, mostly the 1994
S10 US Electricar conversion, which I still have 2 of.
Recently bought a cheap 2013 Tesla Model S.
Cheap because I never spend much on cars and I like fixing my stuff. This
one was salvage due to prior (driveable, unrepaired) damage to right rear
quarter panel as well as having swapped in a bad battery pack from the
previous owner's other 2013 S85.
Further issues were a broken C pillar window and 3 door handles with issues.
Still, the car is a great drive. And Ebay supplied a set of stainless steel
paddle gears, so the door handles have been fixed. Most time cost the
(dis)-mounting, because the fix is easy as pi.
Ebay further led me to a dismantler who supplied a used triangle window as
well as a pack module from another 2013 S85, to replace the unbalanced
module from the bad pack that was swapped in.
Opening, cleaning and carefully gluing the pack back together is what took
most of the time.
In the process, I found out that this pack was already repaired in 2018
(probably by Tesla) with the same module that was now bad, from a 2012
pack. So, not all repairs work out well.
I had the car recharge the whole pack from 15 to 90% before gluing it back
together and found the replaced module slightly higher in voltage by about
0.05V so apparently the module has slightly lower capacity, but as long as
it does not get too stressed and the BMS can keep it in line with the other
modules, we should be good.
Just need to replace the C pillar window and it is a very useful vehicle,
unfortunately without the Super Charging, which irks me as nothing anywhere
near the charging system had been affected when it was disabled (after the
rear right fender bender).
Anyway, for its price it is a *LOT* of vehicle.
But not as easy to work on as a Leaf, for sure.
I still have a 2011 Leaf with about 40 miles range. And a 2012 that had 22
mi range when I towed it home, until I dropped a 2019 62kWh pack into it,
combined with Dala-supplied CANbridge to make that pack work in the first
gen. So, now it has well over 200 mi range.
And I have a 2013 Leaf with 1 year ago replaced pack (just within the 8y
California drivetrain warranty) which is really the smoothest and most
efficient of all my cars, regularly getting 5mi/kWh.
The Model S will probably be the smoothest as soon I start driving it more.
No complaints about service here, because I typically only use it to buy
unique parts, but dismantlers are a much more reliable source for me,
except for Leaf batteries, which are pretty much unobtanium, so it is good
I have plenty of them for battery storage experiments.
Cor.

On Sunday, May 29, 2022, EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:

> On 29 May 2022 at 11:54, Michael A. Radtke via EV wrote:
>
> > I use the [Imiev] nearly every day and depend on it.  I also realize that
> > it is approaching end of life and there is nothing on the market that,
> > in my opinion, does the job that I need it to do.
>
> Not to break in on a semi-private conversation here, but I wonder what end-
> of-life looks like for an EV.
>
> For as long as I've been following EVs (about 55 years), lower mechanical
> complexity => longer potential mechanical life has always been a big check
> in the plus column.
>
> Stuff wears out, yea verily even electronics.  "Longer life" thus assumes
> that spare parts remain available and affordable, and that the battery is
> rebuildable or replaceable. Spares are always a fight as a car ages.
> Fortunately consumer law is more or less on our side on that scrap.
>
> But at least in the US it's become tougher to improve consumer law.  If
> we're stuck with the ICEV-oriented laws on EV spare parts availablity,
> then
> EV end of life might look pretty much like ICEV end of life.
>
> And then there's the body, again from the perspective of the snowy, salty
> northern US.  The (galvanized?) steel now used in cars lasts longer than
> the
> old dip-primed (or not) stuff of 50-60 years ago.  But steel never really
> stops longing to return to its lower energy steady state of iron oxide.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  We can't solve problems by using the same kind
>  of thinking we used when we created them.
>
> -- Alan Kay
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] battery pairng

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Peter,
I think redscooter is talking about Nissan Leaf battery pairing (which
can only officially be done by Nissan) but there are workarounds, now
available with LeafSpy Pro Beta.
The suggested idea of pairing via charging will certainly not work on
Nissan leaf.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor.

On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 2:59 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV
 wrote:
>
> Just out of curiousity, what the heck are you talking about?
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> April 17, 2022 1:23 PM, "redscooter via EV"  wrote:
>
> > most of the time a can bus is used for parring. I thought I saw in the past 
> > about droping the
> > voltage of the donner pack then install n charge. as the voltage goes up 
> > the the 2 will
> > automatically pair ???
> > is there any truth to this ?
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf 12 upgrade to 60kw

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I think they use the same glue that is used to attach the windshield
to the frame of the car, some sort of Urethane, like DOW-U-428 or
similar. At least that it what it looked like and how difficult it was
to cut. Only by putting a *lot* of tension on it (read: a pry bar in
the cut to force the enclosure apart) and a sharp break-off knife
cutting the glue right next to the pry bar, was I able to *cut* the
2013+ packs open. This often distorts the top lid, so not recommended
when you'd need to re-close it.
But almost always I was just harvesting the modules, to be put into a
2011/12 pack that is entirely *bolted* closed.
Nissan wanted to have some protection against opening with standard
tools, so the service disconnect is (on those packs) bolted to the top
lid with security Torx.
So yeah, it is not trivial to inspect the inside of a 2013+ pack. Not
sure how a dealer services such a battery, probably a whole day's of
work for just replacing one of more modules in a pack, so I can see
that they really want to avoid working on a pack.

I don't know if the official Nissan safety precautions still double
the man-hour costs by including a second person standing with a rope
in hand, tied from a distance to the mechanic working on the pack,
ready to yank his twitching body away from the danger after touching
the wrong bits.
(and yes, that is said as mocking humor - I am EE and I always work on
the Leaf packs with steel tools and bare hands, the only reason I
never received a shock is because I am aware of what I am doing at all
times or I would not be working on them *and* I tend to verify
isolation using my multimeter. I absolutely recommend against this
practice for everyone not fully aware of the dangers of HV, but this
is what I am comfortable with. Don't do this at home. Stunts performed
by unprofessional actors or something to that effect.)
Cor.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 6:07 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
>
> FYI:  I have opened the 60kWh LEAF packs, it can be done with a vibrating
> multitool blade.   Much easier than a Tesla pack!
>
>
> (Picture link: http://ingineerix.com/pic/?leaf60kwh )
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 5:49 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > On 11 Apr 2022 at 17:17, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> >
> > > since the [Leaf battery] enclosure can't be opened (glued shut) ...
> >
> > Does that mean that the newer Leaf batteries can't be field-serviced, but
> > must be exchanged for complete new or rebuilt batteries?
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >  The phrase "May you live in interesting times" is the lowest in
> >  a trilogy of Chinese curses that continues "May you come to the
> >  attention of those in authority," and finishes with "May the
> >  gods give you everything you ask for."  I have no idea about
> >  its authenticity.
> >
> > -- Terry Pratchett
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf 12 upgrade to 60kw

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Since I know how far the bottom enclosure extends up inside the lip of
the top lid, I tend to get the fastest (and loudest) results in
opening a glued pack using an angle grinder.
I once did this while the battery was sitting in the bed of my
electric truck (1994 US Electricar, factory converted Chevy S10) and
the hot steel sparks are now permanently embedded into the back cab
window, apparently glass melts from sprayed yellow-hot steel sparks...
Just FYI.
Cor.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 6:17 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>
> I used pry-bars and screwdrivers & putty knifes on a 2013 leaf battery
> that was glued together. Now that I know what is inside (and how to not
> hit it), I'd use an air chisel.
>
> Jay
>
> On 4/11/22 21:01, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> > FYI:  I have opened the 60kWh LEAF packs, it can be done with a vibrating
> > multitool blade.   Much easier than a Tesla pack!
> >
> >
> > (Picture link: http://ingineerix.com/pic/?leaf60kwh )
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 5:49 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 11 Apr 2022 at 17:17, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> >>
> >>> since the [Leaf battery] enclosure can't be opened (glued shut) ...
> >>
> >> Does that mean that the newer Leaf batteries can't be field-serviced, but
> >> must be exchanged for complete new or rebuilt batteries?
> >>
> >> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >>
> >> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> >> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >>
> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >>   The phrase "May you live in interesting times" is the lowest in
> >>   a trilogy of Chinese curses that continues "May you come to the
> >>   attention of those in authority," and finishes with "May the
> >>   gods give you everything you ask for."  I have no idea about
> >>   its authenticity.
> >>
> >>  -- Terry Pratchett
> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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> >>
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf 12 upgrade to 60kw

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Availability of 62kWh packs is extremely limited, because all are
takeouts from Salvage Leafs and since I believe this pack is only
available since 2018, there is a finite number and the cars are still
going for large sums in salvage sales.
I wanted for a langer time to upgrade an older Leaf, both as a
challenge and as a way to get a long range EV for less money. I
already created a longish (100 mi) truck with 2 parallel (used) Leaf
packs some 5 years ago but the newer Leaf packs are not as easy to
reconfigure for use in a different form factor, so I was more or less
stuck with a Leaf to upgrade.
Originally the previous owner of this pack (who bought it from a
company selling used packs) was asking 11k for it but eventually
(after quite some patience) they agreed to a better deal. Part of it
was that the pack was damaged in that the shell was torn and thus
there was a risk of water intrusion and damage to the pack, which
seems not have affected the pack as far as I can tell, but since the
enclosure can't be opened (glued shut), I can only judge by its
behavior.
I did repair the cuts and tears to avoid getting water intrusion while using it.
I also arranged to get a battery plug from a 2013+ Leaf to plug into
the new pack, because 2011/12 battery control plugs are different.
I did not buy the cap to close off the second High Voltage socket, but
managed to close it with the same solution I used to repair the
damaged enclosure.
I did buy longer (metric) bolts to mount the taller pack.
I did not bother with new plastic belly pans or the two brackets to
mount above the rear axle. Maybe later I will ask a friend to weld an
extension to those two brackets and bolt those to the mounting points
in the back of the pack.
The most critical part of the upgrade is a CAN bridge, which gets
inserted between the car and the CAN bus to the battery (in the
battery control wire loom) and which translates the communication
between car and battery, allowing the car to see the extra capacity
and properly talk to the new battery without going into the limp mode
when it does not recognise the battery identity. I got mine from Dala
in Finland, but there is EVsEnhanced and even local guys who import in
larger quantities to get the cost down.
Since I am monthly Patreon supporter of Dala, I got discount on the
CAN bridge from him.
Note that all CAN bridge hardware is essentially identical, I believe
it is designed by Muxsan, who does Leaf upgrades in Delft in The
Netherlands. It is where my Alma Mater is, so I am proud that he is
doing this, even though I did not interact with him directly.

Concluding - with a cheap older Leaf that has a deteriorated pack
(mine showed 22 mi range fully charged) that could be had well below
$3k (prices have changed since the oil price spike), the 62kWh pack
(40kWh should be several thousand cheaper) and the extra acessories, I
have a ~250mi 10 year old Leaf for under $12k with several hours of
hunting info and a day of actual wrenching.

Hope this gives an idea,
Cor.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 4:37 PM Bob Bath via EV  wrote:
>
> I paid 12.5 k on the west coast.
> Nissan will not do it.
> Requires suspension upgrade. 62 kWh pack is heavier.
>
> Sincerely,
> Bob Bath
> 541.761.0838
>
> Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 56 y.o. 
> vision, hyperactive spell check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not 
> cluelessness.
>
>
> > On Apr 11, 2022, at 4:26 PM, mark hanson via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Cor etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > How much $$ does it cost for a 62KWH?  I've got a 2013 Leaf, just 1 bar down
> > on the battery capacity meter though, about 70 miles instead of 90ish when
> > it was a spring chicken.  I'm in the Roanoke, VA area, would I have to go to
> > the stealership?  Would Nissan even do it?  Probably would just want to sell
> > a new Leaf.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Cor van de Water 
> >
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> >
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf 12 upgrade to 60kw
> >
> > Message-ID:
> >
> >  
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> >
> >
> > Oh and to answer the charging question: the car indicates that it will take
> > indeed something like 20 hours to fully charge from empty.
> >
> > That is why I did get a Leaf with DC Fast Charge.
> >
> > Cor.
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 2:32 AM Cor van de Water 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >
> >> I did the upgrade of a 2012 Leaf with 62kWh pack a few weeks ago.
> >
> >> You need a CAN bridge and a couple longer bolts due to the pack being
> >
> >> 40mm taller.
> >
> >> I did not put back the 2 belly pan plastic sheets under the battery
> >
> >> box, they no longer fit.
> >
> >> I *did* put back the front pan, between front axle and front lip of
> >
> >> the battery, which will also divert wind, sand and moisture away from
> >
> >> the battery.
> >
> >> Once you have the pack installed, you must charge fully to max to let
> >
> >> the CAN 

Re: [EVDL] leaf 12 upgrade to 60kw

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Oh and to answer the charging question: the car indicates that it will
take indeed something like 20 hours to fully charge from empty.
That is why I did get a Leaf with DC Fast Charge.
Cor.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 2:32 AM Cor van de Water
 wrote:
>
> I did the upgrade of a 2012 Leaf with 62kWh pack a few weeks ago.
> You need a CAN bridge and a couple longer bolts due to the pack being
> 40mm taller.
> I did not put back the 2 belly pan plastic sheets under the battery
> box, they no longer fit.
> I *did* put back the front pan, between front axle and front lip of
> the battery, which will also divert wind, sand and moisture away from
> the battery.
> Once you have the pack installed, you must charge fully to max to let
> the CAN bridge and the car learn the new capacity.
> I did not (yet) modify any suspension to carry the increased weight,
> it just sits a lil lower.
> Hope this helps!
> Cor.
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 5:27 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Sounds like your Leaf has a 6.6 kw charger (27.5 amps at 240 volts, or
> > 30amps at 220v) as opposed to the slower 3.3 kW charger.
> >
> > 62kwh / 6.6kh = 9.3 hours (If you are able to charge at the full rate
> > the whole time, typically it starts to taper off around 85-90% charged.)
> >
> > [Of course, the entire 62 kWh is not completely available to the
> > user...they keep buffers at both the top and bottom.]
> >
> > Jay
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/10/22 12:50, Bob Bath via EV wrote:
> > > I charge a 2013 LEAF 62 kWh upgrade with a J1772. Depleted, it’s about 5 
> > > hrs. (32A, 220V), FWIW.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Bob Bath
> > > 541.761.0838
> > >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] leaf 12 upgrade to 60kw

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I did the upgrade of a 2012 Leaf with 62kWh pack a few weeks ago.
You need a CAN bridge and a couple longer bolts due to the pack being
40mm taller.
I did not put back the 2 belly pan plastic sheets under the battery
box, they no longer fit.
I *did* put back the front pan, between front axle and front lip of
the battery, which will also divert wind, sand and moisture away from
the battery.
Once you have the pack installed, you must charge fully to max to let
the CAN bridge and the car learn the new capacity.
I did not (yet) modify any suspension to carry the increased weight,
it just sits a lil lower.
Hope this helps!
Cor.


On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 5:27 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>
> Sounds like your Leaf has a 6.6 kw charger (27.5 amps at 240 volts, or
> 30amps at 220v) as opposed to the slower 3.3 kW charger.
>
> 62kwh / 6.6kh = 9.3 hours (If you are able to charge at the full rate
> the whole time, typically it starts to taper off around 85-90% charged.)
>
> [Of course, the entire 62 kWh is not completely available to the
> user...they keep buffers at both the top and bottom.]
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On 4/10/22 12:50, Bob Bath via EV wrote:
> > I charge a 2013 LEAF 62 kWh upgrade with a J1772. Depleted, it’s about 5 
> > hrs. (32A, 220V), FWIW.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Bob Bath
> > 541.761.0838
> >
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Peri,
The 1st gen Leafs have no regen when battery is deteriorated, so if
you have steep hills then you will lose a *lot* of energy,
friction-braking down, wasting all the potential energy you invested
while climbing. So, unless you drive the *same* route later in warmer
weather, it cannot be compared.
I think the best way to *prove* that a cold battery is not lower
capacity, even though it may lose a lot of *power*, increase
*resistance* and other effects, is to take a warm battery (a single
module from a Leaf pack should be sufficient), charge it fully to
4.12V per cell as the 1st gen Leaf has as max cell voltage, leave it
sitting for a day to verify it is not self-discharging, then take the
module and put it in a freezer for a couple hours.
If the module has lower capacity when cold, then it should lose a lot
of charge in the cold.
Measure the cell voltage to see if it has changed (I expect it does
not, but if capacity of the cells would be less, the voltage should
rise as the cell will get over-charged due to its lowed capacity not
being able to contain the same charge)
Then put the battery back into a warm place, wait till it is warmed up
and measure its voltage again. I expect that it will be the same as
before, showing that the capacity of the cells was not affected by
temperature.
It also does not make sense that temp would affect capacity, since it
is the material that gives a place to ions that make up the energy,
and when temp changes the amount of places in the material is not
changing.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 7:14 AM Peri Hartman  wrote:
>
> - no heat. I needed the range, so heat and all accessories were off.
>
> - 2011 model
>
> - I did 4 trips of 2 miles and several shorter trips, over 2 days. This
> was on residential streets, steep hills, speeds aroun 20-25 mph. When I
> saw the charge state drop from 12 bars down to 2, it was clear I needed
> to charge. After that, I plugged in the 120 V charge cable and kept it
> on charge all the time while not driving. Temp was around 20F.
>
> The battery has only about 60% (or maybe 50%) of its original capacity;
> it's pretty worn out at this point But the issue is the difference
> between warm weather range and cold. Last week, I started with a full
> charge and drove 30 miles RT with still 3 or 4 bars left when I
> returned. Temp was 55F. Heat was off. This is partly on freeway, partly
> on 40 mph highway, and some slower streets.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Cor van de Water" 
> To: "Peri Hartman" 
> Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Sent: 07-Apr-22 00:35:02
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature
>
> >Peri,
> >Did you use the heater in the car when you were doing that 20 mile drive?
> >How long did that trip take in minutes and which model year Leaf did you 
> >drive?
> >I want to give some estimated nrs, so I can show how the distance can
> >be so different.
> >Cor.
> >
> >On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 8:52 PM Peri Hartman  wrote:
> >>
> >>  Cor, this just doesn't add up, for my case. Not the heaters, but the
> >>  difference in range between cold charging and warm charging.
> >>
> >>  Let's say I have about 2/3 the original battery capacity, which would be
> >>  16kWh. In warm weather, I'll guess I have a range of 50 miles, perhaps
> >>  60 if I go 40 mph without many stoplights. But, as I mentioned, in our
> >>  december cold snap, I was getting about 20. I came very close to running
> >>  out of energy, so I think 20 is pretty accurate. That's less than half
> >>  the range.
> >>
> >>  So, if the main culprit is internal resistance, then half the energy
> >>  would be going into warming up the battery. That's a hell of a lot of
> >>  energy. I would assume that one of two things would happen: the battery
> >>  would warm up and the resistance would drop (and range improve), or it
> >>  would become plasma.
> >>
> >>  In reality, I don't think either happens. That's why I made this post in
> >>  the first place. I have searched on the Internet but haven't found
> >>  anything beyond people's speculation. But I would think this is heavily
> >>  researched within the battery industry.
> >>
> >>  Peri
> >>
>
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Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Peri,
Did you use the heater in the car when you were doing that 20 mile drive?
How long did that trip take in minutes and which model year Leaf did you drive?
I want to give some estimated nrs, so I can show how the distance can
be so different.
Cor.

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 8:52 PM Peri Hartman  wrote:
>
> Cor, this just doesn't add up, for my case. Not the heaters, but the
> difference in range between cold charging and warm charging.
>
> Let's say I have about 2/3 the original battery capacity, which would be
> 16kWh. In warm weather, I'll guess I have a range of 50 miles, perhaps
> 60 if I go 40 mph without many stoplights. But, as I mentioned, in our
> december cold snap, I was getting about 20. I came very close to running
> out of energy, so I think 20 is pretty accurate. That's less than half
> the range.
>
> So, if the main culprit is internal resistance, then half the energy
> would be going into warming up the battery. That's a hell of a lot of
> energy. I would assume that one of two things would happen: the battery
> would warm up and the resistance would drop (and range improve), or it
> would become plasma.
>
> In reality, I don't think either happens. That's why I made this post in
> the first place. I have searched on the Internet but haven't found
> anything beyond people's speculation. But I would think this is heavily
> researched within the battery industry.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Cor van de Water" 
> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" 
> Sent: 06-Apr-22 17:27:23
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature
>
> >I presume that there are 2011 with "winter package" and heaters in the pack.
> >They still have only a single HV connector on the front of the
> >battery, so the HV switching is done in the car.
> >I did find one inconsistency yesterday: I was taking a 2012 pack apart
> >and came across a total of 8 heaters, there was an extra pair between
> >the back of the quarter packs and the halfpack.
> >In contrast to the 2013+ heaters, they are not all the same
> >resistance: the two large heaters on the halfpack measured in at only
> >1kOhm at room temp (again, resistance increased quickly with
> >temperature). The 6 low profile heaters from around the quarter packs
> >measured close to 4kOhm each. The heating elements apparently are the
> >same, though at the large heaters the 2 power wires connect
> >alternating to 5 wires that power 4 elements, hence the 4 times lower
> >resistance. This also means that the power draw is much higher for the
> >earlier pack heaters: 2 of 1k and 6 of 4k parallel means around 285
> >Ohms at room temp (less in the cold) so this will draw about 1.3 Amps
> >at room temp which is almost 500 Watts, more when it is cold. This
> >means that in a cold and exposed location when the heater is running
> >the whole time that the car is plugged in, it can steal almost half
> >the power of a 110V charger.
> >Cor.
> >
> >On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 7:06 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> >>
> >>  So, even the 2011 has a modest heater, then ? I believe you. However,
> >>  how do you explain the vast difference between range (kWh during
> >>  charging) in winter 20F versus comfortable weather 70F ?
> >>
> >>  Peri
> >>
> >>  << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> >>
> >>  -- Original Message --
> >>  From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
> >>  To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> >>  Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
> >>  Sent: 05-Apr-22 18:47:53
> >>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature
> >>
> >>  >Every battery I have taken apart that has heaters, has a total of 6:
> >>  >2 on top of the halfpack,
> >>  >2 midway between the quarterback stacks and
> >>  >2 in the front of the battery, next to the first high stack of the
> >>  >quarter packs.
> >>  >The resistance is in the order of 10kOhm and all heaters are in
> >>  >parallel, connecting to the full battery voltage when the heater relay
> >>  >closes.
> >>  >At an average 375-ish Voltage, the current is around 37mA which
> >>  >translates into a max heating power of around 12W per heater.
> >>  >Each heater is built up with a plastic carrier, a thin alu sheet het
> >>  >spreader and all have the same resistive heating element, though the
&

Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I presume that there are 2011 with "winter package" and heaters in the pack.
They still have only a single HV connector on the front of the
battery, so the HV switching is done in the car.
I did find one inconsistency yesterday: I was taking a 2012 pack apart
and came across a total of 8 heaters, there was an extra pair between
the back of the quarter packs and the halfpack.
In contrast to the 2013+ heaters, they are not all the same
resistance: the two large heaters on the halfpack measured in at only
1kOhm at room temp (again, resistance increased quickly with
temperature). The 6 low profile heaters from around the quarter packs
measured close to 4kOhm each. The heating elements apparently are the
same, though at the large heaters the 2 power wires connect
alternating to 5 wires that power 4 elements, hence the 4 times lower
resistance. This also means that the power draw is much higher for the
earlier pack heaters: 2 of 1k and 6 of 4k parallel means around 285
Ohms at room temp (less in the cold) so this will draw about 1.3 Amps
at room temp which is almost 500 Watts, more when it is cold. This
means that in a cold and exposed location when the heater is running
the whole time that the car is plugged in, it can steal almost half
the power of a 110V charger.
Cor.

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 7:06 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> So, even the 2011 has a modest heater, then ? I believe you. However,
> how do you explain the vast difference between range (kWh during
> charging) in winter 20F versus comfortable weather 70F ?
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
> Sent: 05-Apr-22 18:47:53
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature
>
> >Every battery I have taken apart that has heaters, has a total of 6:
> >2 on top of the halfpack,
> >2 midway between the quarterback stacks and
> >2 in the front of the battery, next to the first high stack of the
> >quarter packs.
> >The resistance is in the order of 10kOhm and all heaters are in
> >parallel, connecting to the full battery voltage when the heater relay
> >closes.
> >At an average 375-ish Voltage, the current is around 37mA which
> >translates into a max heating power of around 12W per heater.
> >Each heater is built up with a plastic carrier, a thin alu sheet het
> >spreader and all have the same resistive heating element, though the
> >resistance is strongly temp related.
> >At room temp I measured about 8.7 kOhm, but even putting my hand on
> >the heater element the meter quickly rose to near 10kOhm, so at any
> >decent heat produced the resistance is likely to rise sharply and the
> >power to fall, so they intrinsically avoid thermal runaway.
> >The power likely falls to around 7 Watts per heater in operation, so
> >about 40 Watts total for a pack. but a cold pack may start at more
> >than 100W of power draw for heating.
> >Cor.
> >
> >On Mon, Apr 4, 2022 at 3:31 AM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  On 4/4/22 00:54, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> >>  > I'm not sure about the newer models, but definitely no battery heater
> >>  > (or cooler) for the 2011 model.
> >>  >
> >>
> >>  2013 Leaf has  (four) resistance heaters inside the main battery case.
> >>  They turn on if the temp gets below freezing.
> >>
> >>  No active cooling in any Leaf battery so far.
> >>
> >>  Jay
> >>  ___
> >>  Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> >>  No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I think David took a good crack at that:
The battery has higher resistance so the losses inside are a bit
higher and at freeway driving speed, the pack will hit minimum charge
level earlier as there is a larger voltage drop (limits are almost
always measured in voltage across a cell).
In addition, air is denser (higher air resistance), all lubricants are
sluggish and you *need* heaters to keep the windows from fogging up,
even if you were not using electrical power to heat the cabin, which
normally you would do as well.
I even see the effect between a warm 70+F afternoon drive and a chilly
50-ish evening drive where I cannot get the mi/kWh average that I get
on the same road in the early afternoon.
So, no, I don't believe there is a strong temp-capacity effect.
If there were, we would be seeing graphs of capacity versus temp in
datasheets and I have not seen those.
Cor.

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 7:06 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> So, even the 2011 has a modest heater, then ? I believe you. However,
> how do you explain the vast difference between range (kWh during
> charging) in winter 20F versus comfortable weather 70F ?
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> ------ Original Message --
> From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
> Sent: 05-Apr-22 18:47:53
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature
>
> >Every battery I have taken apart that has heaters, has a total of 6:
> >2 on top of the halfpack,
> >2 midway between the quarterback stacks and
> >2 in the front of the battery, next to the first high stack of the
> >quarter packs.
> >The resistance is in the order of 10kOhm and all heaters are in
> >parallel, connecting to the full battery voltage when the heater relay
> >closes.
> >At an average 375-ish Voltage, the current is around 37mA which
> >translates into a max heating power of around 12W per heater.
> >Each heater is built up with a plastic carrier, a thin alu sheet het
> >spreader and all have the same resistive heating element, though the
> >resistance is strongly temp related.
> >At room temp I measured about 8.7 kOhm, but even putting my hand on
> >the heater element the meter quickly rose to near 10kOhm, so at any
> >decent heat produced the resistance is likely to rise sharply and the
> >power to fall, so they intrinsically avoid thermal runaway.
> >The power likely falls to around 7 Watts per heater in operation, so
> >about 40 Watts total for a pack. but a cold pack may start at more
> >than 100W of power draw for heating.
> >Cor.
> >
> >On Mon, Apr 4, 2022 at 3:31 AM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  On 4/4/22 00:54, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> >>  > I'm not sure about the newer models, but definitely no battery heater
> >>  > (or cooler) for the 2011 model.
> >>  >
> >>
> >>  2013 Leaf has  (four) resistance heaters inside the main battery case.
> >>  They turn on if the temp gets below freezing.
> >>
> >>  No active cooling in any Leaf battery so far.
> >>
> >>  Jay
> >>  ___
> >>  Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> >>  No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> >>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >>  ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
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Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Every battery I have taken apart that has heaters, has a total of 6:
2 on top of the halfpack,
2 midway between the quarterback stacks and
2 in the front of the battery, next to the first high stack of the
quarter packs.
The resistance is in the order of 10kOhm and all heaters are in
parallel, connecting to the full battery voltage when the heater relay
closes.
At an average 375-ish Voltage, the current is around 37mA which
translates into a max heating power of around 12W per heater.
Each heater is built up with a plastic carrier, a thin alu sheet het
spreader and all have the same resistive heating element, though the
resistance is strongly temp related.
At room temp I measured about 8.7 kOhm, but even putting my hand on
the heater element the meter quickly rose to near 10kOhm, so at any
decent heat produced the resistance is likely to rise sharply and the
power to fall, so they intrinsically avoid thermal runaway.
The power likely falls to around 7 Watts per heater in operation, so
about 40 Watts total for a pack. but a cold pack may start at more
than 100W of power draw for heating.
Cor.

On Mon, Apr 4, 2022 at 3:31 AM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>
>
>
> On 4/4/22 00:54, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> > I'm not sure about the newer models, but definitely no battery heater
> > (or cooler) for the 2011 model.
> >
>
> 2013 Leaf has  (four) resistance heaters inside the main battery case.
> They turn on if the temp gets below freezing.
>
> No active cooling in any Leaf battery so far.
>
> Jay
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Peri,
It is the *speed*, not the *capacity* that suffers in very cold weather.
Think of it as ions moving sluggish through the lattice that makes up
the active material.
The colder, the more sluggish.
Forcing too much current into this can even cause faults to develop,
which *are* reducing the capacity permanently, not because of the cold
but because of the fault blocking the path of current in that section
of the lattice, taking a little bit of the total capacity out of the
picture.
That is why charging must be slow in the cold, to avoid creating those
faults, so that the capacity of the battery remains, albeit at lower
*power* (=speed of current in or out of the battery).
Hope this clarifies,
Cor.

On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 3:50 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> As I understand, with most Li-ion cells, the colder the cell, the less
> charge it will take on. Correct ?
> But what happens if a warm battery is charged and then cools off ? It
> still has all its kWh, right ? And further, the temperature of the
> battery does not affect how many kWh you can get *out* of it, though the
> rate may change a bit.
>
> My 2011 Leaf has abysmal range at this point. I'm wondering if I were to
> charge during the warmest part of the day, would I get a bit more range
> ? I'm going to guess it won't make that much difference since the
> battery is in the shade (under the car) and won't warm up much over a
> few hours. But I'm still curious if the theory holds truth.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Need to find a blocking diode for charger output

[Cor van de Water via EV]

David,
Lee sent me also a direct mail and there is a difference - he
indicated that relay 1 needs *TWO* small "NO" contacts, because indeed
with only 1 contact the relay 2 will keep its own coil powered from
the battery via its own contact.
So, the mail from Lee indicates that relay coil 2 gets power from the
output of the charger *through* the second NO contact of relay 1.
When you pull the AC power to the charger, relay 1 will lose coil
power and disconnect both its contacts: the charger is still connected
to the battery via relay 2 contact, but relay 2 coil is interrupted
from the charger output by relay 1 second contact, so relay 2 also
drops and the battery is totally isolated (both relay 1 and 2 contacts
open, so no leakage current)
Cor.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 11:40 AM David Nelson via EV  wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 3:34 PM EV List Lackey via EV  
> wrote:
> >
> > It sounds like your charger has an electrolytic capacitor across its output.
> >
> > Could you add a precharging circuit across the contactor?
>
> I thought of this but wanted something as simple as possible. Of
> course, a diode has heat dissipation to consider and who knows how
> long it will last. I have more responses about this idea after Lee
> Hart's email below.
>
> I like Bill D's suggestion of the 5-pin connector for its simplicity.
> I just haven't found a 5 pin connector yet so I think I'll stay with
> the NEMA L6-20 I have and work on some sort of pre-charge.
>
> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 5:11 PM Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Wouldn't the voltage drop confuse the charger, especially when it gets
> > to the constant voltage point near end of charge?
>
> I need to verify what voltage the internal BMS starts to balance but I
> think it is still before the ending voltage the battery will see.
>
> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 5:54 PM Matt Lacey via EV  wrote:
> >
> > The charger won't know about the voltage drop, it would just reduce the
> > CV voltage by 0.7V or so
> >
> > The bigger problem is the charger may not start, if there's no voltage
> > present on it's output.
>
> Many of these batteries' BMS will cut off the output so the voltage
> across the terminals is 0V. Because of this, the chargers need to
> attempt to charge even with 0V on the output. This is why I purchased
> the Dakota Lithium charger. I now wish I had hunted for a soft-start
> charger.
>
> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 9:32 PM Cor van de Water
>  wrote:
> >
> > David,
> > Why are you unplugging the charger?
>
> I'm mounting the charger in the golf cart. It doesn't always go back
> to the same place on the campus it is used on so it needs to be able
> to charge wherever it is at. I have an extension cord with a NEMA
> L6-20 plug on the end so the extension cord isn't "borrowed" for other
> uses and can remain in the golf cart, and so the plug can handle more
> plug-unplug cycles. I also don't want a standard extension cord used
> in case the end is worn out and causes something to melt or catch
> fire. The smaller battery than the lead-acid pack leaves a nice
> storage space under the seat for it. Also, the documentation
> specifically states to not leave it plugged in and connected to the
> battery for more than 16-24 hours after the charge is finished. This
> is, I'm sure, just to make the charger cheaper to make. If your
> question was about why I'm disconnecting it from the battery pack,
> David Roden is correct. It is due to the constant 0.12A drain on the
> battery when it isn't hooked up to AC power.
>
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 10:08 AM Lee Hart  wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi David,
> >
> > I'm emailing you directly because the EVDL no longer accepts posts from
> > Earthlink. I'm still around and reading it! I just can't post to the EVDL.
> >
> > It's fairly common for poorly designed chargers to put a constant load
> > on the battery. They need to monitor the battery voltage anyway, so it
> > saves money to "borrow" the battery voltage to also power the charger's
> > electronics. They assume that the charger will always be plugged in; so
> > it will be "maintaining" the battery once it is fully charged.
> >
> > David Roden had the right idea to fix this. Add a relay with a 120vac
> > coil, and a contact in series with the charger's output. When AC is
> > applied, it pulls in the relay, which connects the charger to the pack.
> >
> > But as he says, the output circuit of the charger must have a big filter
> > capacitor that draws a high peak current if you immediately close the
> > output relay. The fix for this is to include a "precharge" or "inrush"
> > limiter. The simplest way to do this is with TWO relays.
> >
> > Relay#1 is a small relay with a 120vac coil and a low-power NO (normally
> > open) contact. Its coil is across the AC input to the charger, so it
> > pulls in when the charger gets AC power. Its contact has a resistor in
> > series, connected between your pack and the charger output. The resistor
> > is chosen to provide 0.1 to 1 amp to 

Re: [EVDL] Need to find a blocking diode for charger output

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Bill, the OP said there is a significant spark when reconnecting the
pack to the charger, that is the reason he wants to leave the charger
connected to the pack at all times.
The proposed diode is to avoid the charger draining the pack when it
is not powered.

Best I can come up with is to keep the charger powered.
All else I can think of will require modding the charger, especially
knowing the tendency of smart chargers to want to see pack voltage
before starting a charge.
Cor.

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 2:21 AM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
>
> Mount a five (5) pin male connector ("inlet") on the side of the golf
> cart for the 120 VAC cord.
>
> Connect the 120 VAC hot, neutral, and ground using three (3) of the
> pins, A, B, C, in both the golf cart and the cord portions of the connector.
>
> In the golf cart, use the two (2) remaining pins, D and E,  to complete
> the DC charging circuit. One pin, D, is connected to, say, the charger
> negative lead lead. The other pin, E, is connected to the battery
> negative terminal.
>
> In the cord portion of the connector, connect the two pins, D, and E, to
> each other.
>
> When you are done charging your golf cart, disconnect the cord from
> wall, and then from the golf cart using this connector.
>
> Done.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
> On 3/21/2022 8:54 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> > On 20 Mar 2022 at 21:31, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> >
> >> Why are you unplugging the charger?
> >> Typical Li-Ion chargers or BMS will shut off the power into the
> >> battery when max level is reached.
> > Not to speak for Mr Nelso, and maybe I'm minunderstanding or misinterpreting
> > him, but but here is his answer from the same message you replied to.
> >
> > "this charger puts a continuous 0.12A drain on the battery when the charger
> > is not plugged in. This golf cart is sometimes parked for a few months
> > during the winter and I don't want the charger running the battery flat."
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >   Things I once thought were funny are scary now. I often feel
> >   like a resident of Pompeii who has been asked for some
> >   humorous comments on lava.
> >
> > -- Tom Lehrer
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] Need to find a blocking diode for charger output

[Cor van de Water via EV]

David,
On the contrary - when the charger is UNplugged, it is draining the
battery, so my question is meant to tell: what if you DON'T unplug it?
If it only drains the pack when it loses power, would there still be a
problem when you make it NOT lose power?
Cor.

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 1:54 AM EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
>
> On 20 Mar 2022 at 21:31, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>
> > Why are you unplugging the charger?
> > Typical Li-Ion chargers or BMS will shut off the power into the
> > battery when max level is reached.
>
> Not to speak for Mr Nelso, and maybe I'm minunderstanding or misinterpreting
> him, but but here is his answer from the same message you replied to.
>
> "this charger puts a continuous 0.12A drain on the battery when the charger
> is not plugged in. This golf cart is sometimes parked for a few months
> during the winter and I don't want the charger running the battery flat."
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  Things I once thought were funny are scary now. I often feel
>  like a resident of Pompeii who has been asked for some
>  humorous comments on lava.
>
>-- Tom Lehrer
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] Need to find a blocking diode for charger output

[Cor van de Water via EV]

David,
Why are you unplugging the charger?
Typical Li-Ion chargers or BMS will shut off the power into the
battery when max level is reached.
Cor.

On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 1:52 PM David Nelson via EV  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm replacing the T-875 battery pack in a golf cart with a 48V Dakota
> Lithium LiFePO4 battery. I also ordered their 15A charger to make sure
> it would play nice with the builtin BMS. I was very frustrated and
> disappointed to discover that this charger puts a continuous 0.12A
> drain on the battery when the charger is not plugged in. This golf
> cart is sometimes parked for a few months during the winter and I
> don't want the charger running the battery flat. I'm also trying to
> make this as user friendly as possible since the T-875 pack didn't
> last very long due to no care of the pack.
>
> I first thought that I could install a NO relay with an AC coil which
> would close when the AC cord was plugged in and so ordered one. Then I
> thought I better see if there is any arcing when connecting the
> charger to the battery pack. Yep. There is a nice pop when connecting
> the charger so a relay/contactor would not last very long with that.
> So I decided to find a diode which I could use but I'm not having luck
> in finding something since I don't know exactly what parameters I need
> to search with. Does anyone with more EE knowledge than me have a
> recommendation? I do have room just above the motor area and beside
> the controller to mount something to the frame. A recommended
> heatsink, if needed, would be helpful, too.
>
> Thank you,
>
> David D. Nelson
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Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf battery upgrades: 2012 Leaf with 250 miles range.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Hi David,
I have seen 278 miles indicated on my display, so it seems the Leaf
does not have *this* defect, though it will probably have others ;-)
For others who asked: it seems quite difficult to get your hands on
good used Leaf batteries. Especially higher capacities.
When I heard about the pack that I have in my 2012, about half year
ago, the local EV'er wanted $11k for it, though early on while
mentioning various ways to get packs he revealed that they got this
for 7500, so when he probed my interest I tried to sound not too
enthusiast and offered him 7500 as well (which would mean that he
needed to eat the transport cost he invested to get this pack to him).
So, he tried to sell it for a few weeks, then we got back in contact
and I could pick it up for 7500 cash, which is a good deal for a 62kWh
pack.
It did have some serious damage though (cracked and dented top of the
metal enclosure, which is supposed to be airtight. I did not see water
intrusion, so I used Gorilla Tape over the cracks to seal it again.
We'll see how well it holds out, my experience with it has been good
so far.
Cor.

On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM David Nelson via EV  wrote:
>
> That is awesome! Someone did something similar to a 2016 Kia Soul EV
> and found that the GOM would only display a little over 150 miles,
> does the LEAF display show the 250 mile range or something else?
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:14 PM Cor van de Water via EV
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi gang,
> > Just a short report on one of my new exploits with Nissan Leaf batteries.
> > About 5 years ago I installed 2 used Leaf packs in my US Electricar
> > (Chevy S10 conversion) and it has been a very useful vehicle still
> > today, due to the used (deteriorated, but cheap) packs the truck
> > started with 100 miles of range (about 35kWh combined capacity from
> > the two original 24kWh packs, each at that time between 70-75%
> > capacity). I am repeating this with a second US Electricar but I had
> > the opportunity to escape to another project that I wanted to do for
> > some time:
> >
> > This last weekend I worked on a 2012 Leaf that I bought last month for
> > this purpose: Installing a 62kWh pack that was salvaged from a crashed
> > 2019 Leaf.
> > There are two major incompatibilities: the pack is taller (by 40mm)
> > and the Leaf accepts only the original battery ID as valid to be able
> > to drive the car normal.
> > The first is not a major issue - just get some longer bolts and not be
> > afraid to drill 2 new holes for a mounting position in the middle of
> > the side where the new pack does not line up.
> > That means the pack sites lower than the original 2012 pack, but that
> > is OK. Just slightly less clearance.
> >
> > The second issue can be solved by deploying a "man in the middle" in
> > the CAN bus between car and battery. I got a CAN bridge from Dala in
> > Finland, programmed it with the code created by Muxsan (who also
> > installs battery extenders in Leafs in The Netherlands) and placed it
> > in-line with the battery CAN bus.
> >
> > Success! I now have approx 250 mile range on my 2012 Leaf, so it is
> > ready for its 2nd life, starting with less than 100k on the Odometer
> > achieved with the original 24kWh battery that was deteriorated from 80
> > to 22 mile range.
> > Cor.
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>
>
> --
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[EVDL] Nissan Leaf battery upgrades: 2012 Leaf with 250 miles range.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Hi gang,
Just a short report on one of my new exploits with Nissan Leaf batteries.
About 5 years ago I installed 2 used Leaf packs in my US Electricar
(Chevy S10 conversion) and it has been a very useful vehicle still
today, due to the used (deteriorated, but cheap) packs the truck
started with 100 miles of range (about 35kWh combined capacity from
the two original 24kWh packs, each at that time between 70-75%
capacity). I am repeating this with a second US Electricar but I had
the opportunity to escape to another project that I wanted to do for
some time:

This last weekend I worked on a 2012 Leaf that I bought last month for
this purpose: Installing a 62kWh pack that was salvaged from a crashed
2019 Leaf.
There are two major incompatibilities: the pack is taller (by 40mm)
and the Leaf accepts only the original battery ID as valid to be able
to drive the car normal.
The first is not a major issue - just get some longer bolts and not be
afraid to drill 2 new holes for a mounting position in the middle of
the side where the new pack does not line up.
That means the pack sites lower than the original 2012 pack, but that
is OK. Just slightly less clearance.

The second issue can be solved by deploying a "man in the middle" in
the CAN bus between car and battery. I got a CAN bridge from Dala in
Finland, programmed it with the code created by Muxsan (who also
installs battery extenders in Leafs in The Netherlands) and placed it
in-line with the battery CAN bus.

Success! I now have approx 250 mile range on my 2012 Leaf, so it is
ready for its 2nd life, starting with less than 100k on the Odometer
achieved with the original 24kWh battery that was deteriorated from 80
to 22 mile range.
Cor.
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Re: [EVDL] 24 kw battereis , different verions

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Simple, the 2011/12 battery is in a grey enclosure with an
orange+green service disconnect socket  with round pins, surrounded by
security torx bolts and the top of the enclosure has about 20 bolts
around the edge, because it is *bolted* closed. If you open it, you
will see the modules have *black* plastic inserts to hold the pouches
(the 4 actual cells in each module)
The 2013+ variant is in a black enclosure that is *glued* shut and has
only 5 bolts on each of the 2 long sides. The service disconnect has a
white socket with flat blade contacts and is mounted by regular 10mm
hex bolts. If you have access to the modules (should not unless you
cut the enclosure open) you will see *white* plastic inserts in the
modules to hold the 4 pouches.
Looking at the serial number of the pack, it has the year in the first
two numbers, then a character for month: 1=Jan,..., A=Oct, B=Nov,
C=Dec.

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 9:43 PM redscooter via EV  wrote:
>
>  I get the idea theres at least  2 verions of the 24 kw battery, like
> 2011-12, and 2013- 2016. how do I know when buying a  car battery which
> version it has.  I don't  want to have a  2011 or 2012 battery thats been
> moved to a  newer body . local dealer saya check battery part number???
>
> any ideas how to check or verify ? Hear the 2013 24 kw battery improvement
> happened in  april  2013 ?
>
> does leaf spy show the seral nmber ?
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Re: [EVDL] leaf recall battery HV battery ground strap

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Jay, understood.
What do you think happens to the paint under a bolt *with no washer*
that is torqued down so that you need a 3ft extension to get it loose
- and then torque it down again afterwards, while it is lifting the
battery during the torqueing... How much paint would you think is
still on that spot under the bolt head?
Anyway - there is no current path for the grounding anyway, it is just
to make sure in case of an isolation failure (like water in the pack)
that it has a solid path to ground and there is no way that the
enclosure can carry any voltage.
Those two potmetal scraps of metal will no doubt help, that is why
they use bolts that clean the threads when inserting - the case itself
is painted just like everywhere else, but the bolts (when not too
corroded) will make ground contact, just like the return contact bolts
in all other places on a car.
I know that the return path is *not* through the 6 ground wires in the
control plug, because the BMS is insulated from its alu enclosure. I
have never tested if the shielding in the HV cables is carrying a
return path, I don't think so because I have not seen a ground
connection in the HV plug.
Cor.

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 4:42 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>
> I generally agree with you, but I believe these particular straps are
> "grounded" intentionally ( no paint, etc.while all the other bolts
> are just coincidentally grounded.but may have paint that could
> potentially block the conduction.)
>
> Since the repair is free to have done under the recall, it's better to
> do it than not, if only so that if/when you want to sell the car there
> is no outstanding recalls listed for it.
>
> Jay
>
> On 3/9/22 17:10, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> > Waste of time.
> > I know, the 2 shitty sheet metal "arms" (12 cm pot steel with a hole
> > for a 10mm bolt on each end) are being replaced with concerns about
> > them rusting, but really - the entire *metal* battery enclosure is
> > bolted to the *frame* of the Leaf with 10 or 12 *huge* bolts under
> > high tension, which will connect the battery enclosure to the frame
> > with *way* more reliability than the two pityful straps at the front
> > edges of the battery. Often enough I have not even re-installed those
> > two scraps when I remounted a battery in a car.
> > But of course the lawyers will tell you otherwise and the
> > sales/service guys will happily parrot that.
> > Just my 2 Rubles oh oops, I mean Eurocents or pennies, you choose. I
> > hope the Ruble will be less worth than a penny soon. Not for the
> > residents but to disable the power of the leader.
> > Cor.
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 1:07 PM redscooter via EV  wrote:
> >>
> >>My 2012 let be getting a HV free battery strap repair,  this may applie
> >> to other years. it called a "battery bonding plate" .
> >> ___
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Re: [EVDL] leaf recall battery HV battery ground strap

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Waste of time.
I know, the 2 shitty sheet metal "arms" (12 cm pot steel with a hole
for a 10mm bolt on each end) are being replaced with concerns about
them rusting, but really - the entire *metal* battery enclosure is
bolted to the *frame* of the Leaf with 10 or 12 *huge* bolts under
high tension, which will connect the battery enclosure to the frame
with *way* more reliability than the two pityful straps at the front
edges of the battery. Often enough I have not even re-installed those
two scraps when I remounted a battery in a car.
But of course the lawyers will tell you otherwise and the
sales/service guys will happily parrot that.
Just my 2 Rubles oh oops, I mean Eurocents or pennies, you choose. I
hope the Ruble will be less worth than a penny soon. Not for the
residents but to disable the power of the leader.
Cor.

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 1:07 PM redscooter via EV  wrote:
>
>   My 2012 let be getting a HV free battery strap repair,  this may applie
> to other years. it called a "battery bonding plate" .
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Re: [EVDL] mercedes "launcept" EQXX

[Cor van de Water via EV]

For what it is worth:
I have a 2013 Leaf (not the best aerodynamics) and get consistently
just below 200Wh/mi at a steady 55MPH.
Have done 92 miles of freeway without running out of juice (just
getting the very low battery warning before arriving) with my 24kWh
pack.
So the 166 number (6 mi/kWh) is not out of the question, versus my
5.1mi/kWh in the Leaf.
NOTE: I keep high tire pressure of 43PSI and adjusted the toe to zero,
which changed efficiency from 3.8 before the changes...
Cor.

On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 12:47 PM EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
>
> On 8 Mar 2022 at 18:18, paul dove via EV wrote:
>
> > 166wh sounds like hype
>
> That kind of efficiency is quite possible for a fairly light conventional
> vehicle at low to moderate speeds.  Solectria Forces managed about 150 wh/mi
> in 35-45mph suburban driving.  But those were simple cars.  When you start
> adding weight (such as from extensive soundproofing), aircon, and lots of
> energy-hungry gadgets, it's tougher to manage.  Those energy hogs are what
> buyers expect in expensive luxury cars.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  Blockchain is an elaborate workaround for a very specific problem:
>  verifying irreversible transfers of value without a centralized
>  authority. In other words, itGÇÖs a computationally burdensome way to
>  hate the government.
>
>  -- Sarah Jeong
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] 2013-2015 Nissan Leaf recalled for braking problem, 46, 000 vehicles affected

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Mark,
That is absolute bollocks.
As far as I know: *Recalls* never time out, they are mandatory,
enforced by external entities, so it is grounds for a complaint
against the manufacturer.
I have similar experience - dealers often have no clue what they are
required to do, so they try to bluff you out of it. I had to go
through several rounds of that kind of noise before I received the
service that I *knew* that I was entitled to and finally when I kept
stubbornly refuting their crazy claims and steadily mentioning that I
was due my free replacement, that they finally relented but it took
several weeks and rounds before it was done and indeed, for free.
Since you already paid, you can take different steps, up to you how
nasty you want to be - either just "give me back my money" up to suing
them (after verifying that the recall is indeed without deadline as I
suspect).
Good luck.
Cor.

On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 12:55 PM Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
>
> Hi Folks
> I just got back from Team Nissan dealer Roanoke VA and they said the Recall 
> on my 2013 was too old to be included and did a $250 evaluation and said that 
> since my vehicle sat for 3 months while on vacation , that it caused the 
> problem due to low battery and not the software.  The service department 
> claimed that I already had the latest brake software installed.  (Guess it 
> was installed by aliens).  I’ll have to wait till next winter (with a new 
> battery) and see if it occurs again.  Sounds like nonsense to me, has anyone 
> heard that a low 12V auxiliary battery can cause brake problems in the winter?
> https://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1102850_2013-2015-nissan-leaf-recalled-for-braking-problem-46000-vehicles-affected
> Best regards
> Mark
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf 2013 dim headlights at 14V

[Cor van de Water via EV]

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Re: [EVDL] tesla's sneaky rolling stops

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Some years ago when self-driving was just emerging, the engineers
implemented the exact vehicle code and made the car come to a full
stop, before the white line and await its turn.
What the practice provided on the streets was that the vehicle was too
polite, they had a large number of incidents where another vehicle
jumped the queue and went before their turn, because it seemed that
the self-driving vehicle was not ready to go at its turn, so they had
to make the vehicle more aggressive and start rolling in preparation
of its turn to indicate that it was ready to go, simulating the
behavior of human drivers and their expectations of other vehicles,
then the amount of queue jumpers went down to "normal" rude behavior
that we encounter from time to time.
I think the rolling (at low speed) through stop signs when no other
traffic is around is exactly that - mimicking behavior of other
drivers where safe and beneficial, with the added benefit of never
losing focus on safety. Check the crash statistics to see the
difference between machine driven vehicles and human driven vehicles,
I think it is already well above a 1:10 ratio in incidents that
machine is better than distracted human drivers. The whole point of
traffic law is to avoid loss, it is always a balance between traffic
throughput (loss of time) and loss of life and property, so traffic
laws are not even aiming for maximum safety, just reasonable safety
without excessive delays. Rolling through stops when no traffic is
present sounds exactly what *should* be encoded in law. Note that
exactly that is already the case for bicyclists in some states, for
exactly the reason of having acceptable safety without excessive
demands on riders to make a full stop and accelerate again and again,
wearing them out and delaying their journey without safety benefit.
Cor.

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 3:14 PM John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
>
> On Thu Feb 03 08:08:13 PST 2022 dov...@bellsouth.net said:
> >Results:  Stop sign violations accounted for about 70% of all crashes. 
> >Typically these crashes were angular collisions. Among crashes not involving 
> >stop violations, rear-end crashes were most common, accounting for about 12% 
> >of all crashes. Stop sign violation crashes were classified into several 
> >subtypes - driver stopped, driver did not stop, snow/wet/ice, and 
> >other/unknown. In about two-thirds of stop sign violation crashes, drivers 
> >said they had first come to a stop. In these cases, inability or failure to 
> >see approaching traffic often was cited as the cause of the crash. Drivers 
> >younger than 18 as well as drivers 65 and older were disproportionately 
> >found to be at fault in crashes at stop signs.
> >
> >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14733981/
>
> So, you admit that those accidents are generally due to people not paying 
> attention.  Which is not something that an AI would do.
> So, it's likely that letting an AI do a rolling stop would save wear on the 
> vehicle, save energy, and not increase the number of accidents.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Try my Sensible Email package!  
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 111, Issue 16

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I've always had a good laugh at auto-translated texts.
When I just started working at a design center for TV and we came to
the subject of user friendly interface design and user manuals, I was
shown a manual for a Chinese TV that was translated, not automatically
as in that time we barely had the personal PC released, but by a
native Chinese speaker with a Chinese-Dutch (or possibly an
English-Dutch) dictionary. (This was when I still lived there and
worked for a still famous Dutch-based international consumer
electronics company)
One of the first phrases in the "quick start guide" for the TV sounded
something like:
"rotate on the force"
(remember it was in Dutch, so the actual phrase was "draai aan de kracht.")
Anybody any idea what it meant to say before the translation mangled it?
Yep, it meant: Turn on the power.
Literal translated, there were no wrong words.
But a lot of lost meaning.
Just an example that perfectly illustrated the shortcomings of
translations without context in the languages.
Cor.

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 11:58 PM Martin WINLOW via EV  wrote:
>
>
>
>
> 
> Re:
> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 14:12:37 -0500
> From: "EV List Lackey" mailto:evp...@drmm.net>>
> Subject: World's largest lithium company mass producing solid state batteries
>
> "...or https://v.gd/S0Z3FF 
>
> The translation from the Chinese isn't great.  I can grok most of it but
> have no idea what on earth this is supposed to mean:
>
> "can be ... loaded at any time” "
> 
>
> My take on this:   The word ‘loaded’ is common (if confusing) english 
> translation for many European words that mean ‘charged’ (ie ‘loaded with 
> electrical energy’).  In this context I believe what they are saying is that 
> the battery chemistry in question has few to no practical (especially 
> environmental) constraints when it comes to charging eg low or high 
> temperatures…  I may be talking twaddle!
>
> As for:
> "it should not be mass production in the short term. BYD does not need to
> fight for eyeballs like other car companies, but pursues technologies that
> can be popularized on a large scale at low cost and products that bring
> tangible benefits to consumers.”
>
> I think they may be referring to ‘vision’ as in ‘forward-thinking or 
> visionary’ as BYD is the very epitome of this compared to most car-makers.  
> Again, just a guess!
>
> Regards, Martin Winlow
> Isle of Colonsay
> Scotland
>
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] How do I tell Google I travel by electric?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Lawrence,
I presume the original message was:
===
Your travel in 2021
21% around the world
| Total travel |  Low-emission travel |
| 5,085 mi | 21 mi|

So, I presume that your question is how to tell Google to put the 5k
mi into the "Low Emissions" bin, right?
I have no clue, Google is not helpful, other than boasting their new
Maps feature to give you the option of the route with the lowest
carbon emissions.
I did not see how to tell Google Maps that you are traveling in an EV
Cor.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:55 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV
 wrote:
>
> Google maps timeline...I never asked for it. It just showed up in a no reply 
> email.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Tuesday, January 18, 2022, 06:32:01 AM PST, Randy Spencer via groups.io 
>  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> What URL does Google offer this info at?
>
> > On Jan 17, 2022, at 8:32 PM, Lawrence Rhodes  
> > wrote:
> >
> > Your travel in 2021
> > 21% around the world
> > Total travelLow-emission travel
> > 5,085 mi
> >
> >  Doesn't seem Google got it Right. Lawrence Rhodes 21 mi
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> _._,_._,_
>
> 
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> View/Reply Online (#903) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic 
> | New Topic
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Regen toll (was: Tesla Y actual wall outlet efficiency)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Reason you can't drive as conservatively as you'd like is simply: other traffic.
If you are alone on a 45MPH road, nobody cares if you want to do 35,
but if 2 lanes of traffic are storming at you doing 55-60 then it is
mightily inconvenient if someone is blocking the road at 35.
The other reason of course is your own time. While it makes hardly any
difference if you are doing 55 iso 60 on a freeway in time difference,
you are still taking an extra 5 min on an hour trip and sometimes that
means missing appointments, so a higher speed may be necessary at
times.

BTW, I question the 85% efficiency. Not at max (acceleration) power,
but I am under the impression that the majority of the driving is not
done at max acceleration and at lower power levels, the efficiency of
the drivetrain is usually higher. For example, doing a constant 55 on
a flat freeway takes only 15kW while max acceleration is about 6 times
that amount.
15kW is about 40 Amps while max current is either 200 or 250A
depending on the vehicle. Running at 20% of max also means a Voltage
drop of 20% so resistive losses drop to 4% of max losses when running
at 20% power, so I presume that if max losses are 15% (=85%
efficiency) then the losses at 20% must be much lower, as long as the
*fixed* losses are orders smaller.
Cor, happily regenning before every traffic light that is not green
and for sharper turns.

On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 3:04 AM EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
>
> On 4 Jan 2022 at 22:40, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>
> > Whatever the drivetrain losses, they at least double when you
> > regeneratively brake.
>
> I see your point, but I think it's a bit academic.  Assuming your 85%
> efficiency number, you aren't losing 30% on regen, you're losing 15%.
> You've already spent that other 15% by the time the energy gets to the
> wheels, so it's gone anyway.  And 15% loss is a lot better than the 100%
> loss that you get burning it off in the friction brakes.
>
> > If you drive a bit more conservatively, you can avoid expending that
> > energy extra energy in the first place,
>
> Here I agree with you completely.  Not using the energy in the first place
> is better than using it and then recovering some of it.  Unfortunately, you
> still have to use energy to move, unless your trips are all downhill. :-)
>
> My point is that regen id like partly  smoothing out the hills and valleys.
> With good strong regen, properly used, your energy use for a given hilly
> route is only slightly more than if it were flat.
>
> If you're not in a hilly region, I agree that regen is of less value.  But
> as you say, with modern controllers, you get it essentially free, so it's
> always worth including and using.
>
> One other often forgotten benefit of regen is that it reduces friction brake
> wear.  That not only saves you money, it has environmental benefits in
> reducing vehicle particulate emissions.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
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>  a cure for jerks.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y actual wall outlet efficiency

[Cor van de Water via EV]

My Leaf has at least 5 mi/kWh driving almost exclusively freeway at 55 MPH.
I have said it before and I will repeat: Leaf *can* have very high
efficiency, the biggest impact is aligning for zero toe, which only
requires a pair of wrenches and flat road and a good eye, I have done
it to several cars and the results are amazing.
Initially my Leaf showed efficiency between 3.2-3.5 mi/kWh on this
commute. With some difficulty I could reach 3.8 but I thought that was
pretty good.
Until I bought a Leaf from a local who moved into an apartment and
could only charge at the dealer as there were no nearby public
charging stations.
When I picked it up, I was amazed that it indicated 4.8 mi/kWh
efficiency and even more that it stayed that high while I tested it on
my commute, so I compared it to my own Leaf (this one was to re-sell
anyway). The only difference I could find was the front wheel
alignment was pretty dead on for zero toe.
So, I grabbed two crescent wrenches, loosened one side tie rod, turned
it one turn, checked on flat road if the sides of my front wheels now
tracked exactly with my rear tires, tweaked the toe a little more,
tightened the tie rod and the next day my commute showed the same
4.8 mi/kWh on my own Leaf.
Since then I have not done much, my tires are a bit more worn now than
they were then and over the past half year my consumption has been
consistently over 5 mi/kWh. Only in the last week with the low winter
temperatures, has my average gone back down as is now showing 5.0
mi/kWh.
This all on an otherwise standard 2013 Leaf with a 1 year old
replacement 24kWh battery (which again increased the efficiency a
little from the high internal resistance of the old and failing pack).
Cor.

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 4:25 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV
 wrote:
>
> My Bolt routinely averages over 4 miles per kwh from the pack, about 3.8 mpk 
> from the wall. About 1/2 my driving is at speeds of 65mph and above.
>
> My wife averages about 5 mpk from the batteries in her Volt, but she mostly 
> drives at less than 50mph.
> FWIW The Volt is somewhat more effecient at charging because it never allows 
> the batteries to fully charge or discharge, in this zone the battery kwh 
> charge efficeincy is near 100%.  No high voltage to force the last few AH in 
> and no running at reduced voltage as they get near the bottom.
>
> FWIW Level 2 charging seems more efficient than level-1, I suspect becase you 
> spend less time running the fans and pumps, etc.
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> December 30, 2021 7:32 AM, "Peri Hartman via EV"  wrote:
>
> > That's very cool to hear. I have heard over the years that the defacto
> > EV efficiency is about 3 miles per kWh, measured at the battery, or 333
> > Wh per mile. So Tesla has done a great job. I wonder what the Bolt and
> > some other longer range EVs can do.
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org >>
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Cc: "Mark Hanson" 
> > Sent: 30-Dec-21 06:17:32
> > Subject: [EVDL] Tesla Y actual wall outlet efficiency
> >
> >> Hi folks
> >> My heavy 4400lb Tesla Y is more efficient than I thought, close to EPA 
> >> rating, measured 265 watt
> >> hours per mile at the wall outlet with a GE KWh meter over 144 miles 
> >> various hwy/city driving. The
> >> laptop screen car display shows 220-240 wh/mi at the car/battery which 
> >> doesn’t include charger/batt
> >> inefficiencies. My previous electric Karmann Ghia 1974 “ELEC KAR” tag was 
> >> 330 wh/mi actual at the
> >> AC outlet. My Bolt and Leaf are slightly less efficient than the Tesla but 
> >> all my conversions over
> >> the years were in the 330ish range, much less efficient than present day 
> >> factory EVs.
> >> Have a renewable energy efficient new year,
> >> Mark
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] speaking of range estimation

[Cor van de Water via EV]

You'd be surprised.
I have actually heard a new EV driver utter the phrase: I gotta drive
fast now, because I am almost out of battery.
As if it is a cell phone and you need to keep your call short to
finish before the battery runs out and the call drops.
As you and I know, the opposite is true for an EV: if you are starting
to run out of battery and don't have enough range, you slow down and
use less energy per mile, so you can go further.
It takes longer, but if you save a charge stop, you can easily make up
the extra time.
The joys of EV driving ;-)
Cor.

On Tue, Dec 21, 2021 at 6:28 PM EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
>
> On 21 Dec 2021 at 18:05, paul dove via EV wrote:
>
> > Do you drive an ICE this way?
>
> That's my thought too.  I do fine in an ICEV with a gas gauge.  And in an EV
> I'm totally happy if I know the percent of charge remaining.  I can see
> where it is and how fast it's falling, and adjust my driving to suit.
>
> Heck, I drove a Comuta-Car with nothing but an expanded-scale voltmeter to
> help me guess the state of charge.
>
> I realize that there's an ignorance epidemic these days, but I hope that
> most people sensible enough to own EVs are also sufficiently well educated
> to know that a heavy right foot cuts EV range the same as it cuts ICEV MPG,
> to watch the instruments, and to compensate accordingly.
>
> And if the EV has enough smarts to estimate reasonably well how much range
> is left, that's a nice luxury.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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>  because they managed to spend less money. A man who could afford
>  fifty dollar boots had a pair that'd still be keeping his feet
>  dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford
>  cheap [ten dollar] boots would have spent a hundred dollars on
>  boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.
>
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Re: [EVDL] speaking of range estimation

[Cor van de Water via EV]

NOT straight forward. Humans are strange animals.
One moment I may be puttering along at 55 MPH on the freeway and
suddenly remember that I need to do something before an appointment
and start driving 80 which has my consumption doubled, so the range
estimation has to correct excessively.
Another time, after I drove 80 before charging, I may set out with a
full charge only indicating 70 miles range but now I am no longer in a
hurry and again putter along at 55MPH so after driving 20 miles I
arrive with an estimated range that is *higher* than when I left on
that trip...
The range estimation is really simply a guess as to what your car can
do for you if you continue with the same parameters as you were doing
in the recent past.
I am sure that some vehicle know how to fudge the differences between
sudden drive changes and instead adapt slower or faster, but there is
no point in an EV indicating a 100 mile range trying to maintain that
illusion while I start driving it hard, it simply needs to adapt to
the new consumption as soon as possible or I will get stranded when my
driving style consumes all battery charge within 50 miles but the car
only catches up slowly and keeps pretending that I still have most of
the 100 miles range estimation while I am burning through the charge
at double the rate...
BTW, the straight estimation based on only the recent (as in the last
few minutes) consumption is also the reason that some EVs lose 10
miles of range estimation as soon as you set out and accelerate to
freeway speeds. You suddenly need to burn an extra amount of energy
that should have carried you an extra mile, so the increased
consumption at the beginning of your trip to achieve the needed
*kinetic* energy level (A.K.A. speed) is causing this drop in range
estimation. At the end of your trip, if you can anticipate and use
mostly regen braking, you get a large amount of this energy back and
your range estimation will increase again...
Cor.

On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 9:13 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> I'm wondering why none of the EVs seem to have good range estimation. I
> think there is a very simple solution to providing reasonably accurate
> range. Maybe some of the manufacturers are doing what I'm about to
> describe, but I've never seen any discussion of such.
>
> Obviously, if the car has no knowledge of where you are going, all it
> can do is use past behavior and throw out a number. I'm really not
> interested in a range estimate based on my average, I'm interested in an
> estimate for the trip I'm about to take. What if you were to tell it
> where you are going and what route ? Then, it would potentially know
> every hill and stop light. With your past driving behavior, it should be
> able to come up with a very close estimation of how many kWh that trip
> will take.
>
> Google maps has all that info. Maybe local wind info is available, too.
> I understand privacy issues, but most people already have google
> location turned on and have their cell phones with them while moving
> about. Google already knows everything. So, could the car's software
> incorporate google maps to get the info I mentioned above ? Seems like a
> straight forward technology.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] 24 FET Nucular controller, Revolt 160 Esm motor

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I think the last Mr Bush tried to refer to nuclear as New-Cleer as if
that made it some kind of innocent and natural type of clean energy...

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 3:41 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV
 wrote:
>
> Have you tried turning it off and then back on again?  :-)
>
> For David: apparently there is a company making EV controllers called 
> "Nucular"  https://nucular.tech/
> However, I don't know what relatioship they have with Mr Bush.
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> December 18, 2021 10:02 PM, "EV List Lackey via EV"  wrote:
>
> > On 18 Dec 2021 at 23:26, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> >
> >> Friend having a little difficulty with this combination of motor and
> >> controller. Advice is appreciated.
> >
> > It's actually called a "Nucular" controller? Was it designed by George
> > Bush?
> >
> > Seriously, I think that you or your friend will need to ask a more specific
> > question to get usefuil advice here or anywhere. "A little difficulty" is
> > pretty vague.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> > this to all thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any
> > spam, lest I smite thee.
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> >
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Re: [EVDL] badly discharged AGM battery advice

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Good to hear that.
I got 10k miles out of my UB121100 (110 Ah) batteries with my US
Electricar (Chevy S10 factory converted) before the range was
unacceptable.
Cor.

On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 4:16 PM Ken Olum via EV  wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the advice.  I seem to have got off lucky.  My chargers
> charged up these batteries without trouble.  Today I discharged my pack
> for 5 hours at 20A.  Both undamaged batteries seemed worse than both
> "damaged" batteries.  By the end of this test, the undamaged batteries
> were down to 11.0V under load and the "damaged" batteries were still at
> 11.2V.  So it seems that nothing is wrong.
>
> Kudos to Universal Power Group for a product at (at least in this case)
> stood up to significant mistreatment.
>
> Ken
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[EVDL] New Warp 11 for sale

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I have a brand new Netgain Warp that I think is 11" and I need to let
it go within the next month due to losing the storage space.
If you know of someone who wants a cheap and brand new motor that has
just been kicking around on a pallet for 4 years in a warehouse, let
me know!
To show this is legit, I have the serial nr: 2454468126
Needs to be picked up or shipped in the next month, or at least a very
firm commitment to it.
Cor.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf 2013 Ghost Loads on 12V battery

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I have a bt of experience with the 2013 in particular: I bought it
soon after its 5 year battery replacement warranty ran out and so its
12V battery was already 5y old. I do not know its history.
What we noticed however was that the original software in the 2013
only charged the battery occasionally (I believe it was only once a
week) from the traction pack and the weird thing with the Leaf was
that when it charged the aux battery, it monitored the current and
once the current dropped significantly it would go to "maintaining"
level: it would start witht he DC/DC delivering something like 14.2V
but as soon as the aux battery current (there is a separate current
sensor on the aux battery) would drop to a few Amps, then the voltage
of the DC/DC would go to something like 13.2V essentially halting any
further charging. The weird result of that behavior is that the
*weaker* your aux battery, the *less* it gets charged. I actually used
a regulated power supply to occasionally give the 2013 a good full
charge but eventually just installed a new battery so the behavior of
the 2013 resulted in a better charged battery every drive and charge
cycle.
Then a year ago the traction battery failed completely and luckily I
was still within the California 8 years warranty on drivetrain, so
Nissan installed a new pack and apparently also updated the firmware
of the computers. I noticed that the blue LED for the 12V charging now
comes on every 24h to maintain the aux battery, so apparently Nissan
knows of the problem and has updated the firmware to increase the aux
battery maintenance. So, possibly all you need to do is to go to
Nissan and complain about your aux battery dying and they will update
the firmware and you are good.
I parked a Leaf more than 2 months and besides going slightly down in
traction pack SoC, there was no problem with the aux battery.
Hope this helps,
Cor.

On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 5:16 AM Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
>
> Hi folks
> After parking the 2013 Leaf in the garage for 3 weeks, it wouldn’t go when I 
> tried to drive it last night, flashed as error Contact the Dealer with a 
> bunch of yellow exclamation points.  I remembered from the EVDL to check the 
> 12V battery and it was 9V so I charged it up and then all the worthless error 
> messages went away and could drive it.  It’s been falling out of favor with 
> my son and wife since we’ve been driving the Tesla Y and Bolt more but 
> probably need to drive weekly to maintain the 12V battery that seems to be on 
> a shallow charge at 13.4V from the dc dc converter. Does anyone know what the 
> ghost name load is and how to eliminate it?  Maybe need to keep in a battery 
> tender float charger when not driving it. I’ll have to check the ma load 
> tonight after work.  I’ll be retiring from GE Renewable Energy at Christmas 
> so have more time to fool with this stuff
> Have a Renewable Energy Christmas
> Mark in Roanoke Va
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] badly discharged AGM battery advice

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I have reversed UB batteries in the past, in an EV with a *long*
series string of batteries (312V, so 26x UB121100) and if a cell has
been reversed, it loses capacity and thus will reverse earlier next
time. You will find such cells by checking for warmer compartments in
the 6-cell battery cases.
On the other hand, I have also bought new batteries that someone
discharged and then let sit at 0V for a year in their garage.
It took about 3 days of applying voltage before it started drawing any
appreciable current, after that it charged normally.
So, any *smart* battery charger will refuse to resurrect such a battery.
What I do is use a current limited lab supply, for example set for
100mA and 30V, connect to the battery and simply wait.
After a while (and this can be several days) the voltage drops to 12V
because the battery starts charging at more than 100mA.
After that you can use a regular charger, though I like to set the lab
supply for 14.2V at about 0.1C so for a 35Ah battery I can use a small
3 Amp supply.
I keep the battery connected until the current draw at 14.2V becomes
very small, less than 0.1 Amp. No problem to leave it attached to the
battery an extra day.
This revives the battery as much as possible, after that you can test
it in normal operation or with a tester to see its capacity and
determine if you want to continue using it.
Good luck!
Cor.

On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 10:42 PM EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
>
> A 12v battery is considered flat when its open circuit voltage is 11.8
> volts.  Since yours were at ~5 volts, it's fairly likely that you've
> reversed some cells.  That's most definitely not good.
>
> Still, you might get lucky, and it can't hurt to give them a long, slow
> equalizing charge.  Cycle them a few times, and then test their capacity.
> While you're at it, also test the other two for capacity.
>
> If you decide they have enough sock left to give you some use, but are
> definitely less healthy than the others, I recommend building a Lee Hart
> Batt-bridge, so you don't over-discharge and reverse them again.
>
> http://evdl.org/pages/battbridge.html
>
> If they turn out to be at death's door, this might be an ideal time to find
> another chore for the 2 remaining good ones, and treat yourself and your Ox
> to a complete new set.
>
> Some here will probalby suggest that you consider lithium, but I'll leave
> that discussion to them, as I'm not really qualified.
>
> Good luck!  I hope it works out.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  Most people here [in the US] don't want an abrupt reshuffling
>  of everything. That's why we've had only one revolution. It's
>  why we've fought off the metric system all these years, and
>  thank heaven we have.
>
>   -- Fox anchor Tucker Carlson
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: [EVDL] Join Home Electrification on Nextdoor

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Indeed, efficiency is the key.
That is why I was not too worried about using the existing gas
connection for heating purposes, but switching to heatpump appliances
(which *move* easily 4x the amount of heat they consume) makes them an
easy winner in terms of efficiency.
As for using gas for cooking: it is easy to waste a lot of the heat,
never reaching the pot and being pulled outside by the hood vent, it
needs careful matching of pot side and how far you turn up a flame to
get the best efficiency - even the difference between placing a cover
on the pot or not, makes a huge difference. Induction cooking
guarantees almost all energy ends up in the pot, making its transfer
of energy much more efficient than a gas or standard electric stove.
Whether it is more efficient overall (including generation and
transportation losses) I am not sure, the drive for electric cooking
is mostly done to avoid the burn products of (mostly) methane
affecting our indoor air quality.
Regarding space heating, water heating and even clothes drying, a
heatpump certainly has the best cards for efficiency and as you
indicate, in conjunction with solar (on the home or local generated,
which avoids transportation loss and which *should* be unburdened by
transportation charges - but usually isn't) is a good way to avoid
burning fossil fuel to run the electric appliance.
Cor.

On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 6:04 PM nathan christiansn via EV
 wrote:
>
> The problem I have with using electricity for heat is that as an entire
> system, it is less efficient unless your electricity usage is 100% covered
> by solar panels. However, heat pumps may be an exception to this - it
> probably depends on where you live. I am not entirely sure.
>
> For example, say that 100% of your electricity comes from natural gas. I am
> making up numbers here, but let's say the generator is 50% efficient, and
> you have a 5% transmission loss. By the time that energy is turned into
> heat by your electric stove/space heater, 47.5% of the energy has been
> wasted. If you have just burned the natural gas in the first place, you
> could probably get somewhere in the 80-90%(or higher) efficiency range.
>
> I know that not all of our energy comes from natural gas, but 40% of it is.
> Another 19% is produced by coal, and only 40% are produced by clean energy
> sources such as hydro, solar, or nuclear. It seems like it would be much
> less wasteful to just burn natural gas directly.
>
> Heat pumps are interesting though as they have the potential to move more
> heat energy than the energy they consume as electricity.
>
> Anyway, that's my take on it. I would love to hear opposing viewpoints.
>
> Nathan
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Re: [EVDL] Join Home Electrification on Nextdoor

[Cor van de Water via EV]

John,
My experience too that most experts don't like small/repair jobs
(unless it is on their own systems).
Luckily I have a good friend who owns a small HVAC business, so we
made the deal of me and my son doing all the grunt work, saving him a
lot of time that he does not have as he is good and thus busy, so he
came for the final installs and to repair a lineset that I damaged
(like you), so he brazed on a small repair piece and everything was
well again, instead of having to get a new indoor unit.
And to couple two linesets and carefully add flanges to the linesets
we cut, as they were all different lengths
Cost of the complete 5-zone system with almost 300ft of linesets and
installation material was just over 5k, so total about 6k, connected
to the old airco 40 Amp circuit (even though it only required 30A as
the inverter-driven motors are more efficient) and of course it was 2
nights and 1 full day of crawling under the house, pulling linesets
through walls and into the garage.
We ended up running all linesets in channels on outside walls except
one which goes through the former furnace cabinet and laundry room, so
we have no exposed lines on any of the interior walls. Just a few
vertical strips on the exterior between the indoor unit and the
crawlspace. Advantage of DIY is that you can spend more hours doing a
nice job instead of a quick job with linesets all across the exterior
of the home.
I have been extremely happy with the comfort and the quality and
efficiency of this system. As well as having only a single outdoor
unit in place of the old airco compressor, so no questions about new
permits, it is simply seen as a repair of the old (airco) system and
nobody questions why it is running in winter as it is so silent.
Nobody inspects it close enough to see 5 pairs of linesets connected
to it. And the channels on the exterior are painted the same color as
the home, so they simply look like decorative beams interrupting the
siding.
Cor.

On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:19 PM John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
>
> On Fri Dec 03 16:09:16 PST 2021 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
> >The new outdoor unit that I installed just required the unit to be
> >pumped to vacuum and checked for maintaining vacuum, which tells you 2
> >things: no leaks and no foreign materials that are outgassing/boiling
> >in the lines. Then it is just a matter of opening the built-in
> >reservoir to release the coolant to fill the lines. But any HVAC
> >maintenance person can do this for you. The big money and time layout
> >is the installation of the indoor units throughout the homes, but this
> >can easily be done DIY if you are careful with the lines, so then you
> >only have a short visit from the HVAC person to connect the lines to
> >the units, pump to vacuum, fill the refrigerant and bring the system
>
> It costs around $100 for the pump and gauge set to do it yourself.
>
> I've found that HVAC guys want to do the FULL install, otherwise they won't 
> even do simple service on it.
> My experiences:
> 1st system, 18Kbtu unit in the cabin - HVAC guy did it, really simple 
> install: $5000
> 2nd system, 9Kbtu unit in my shop office, did it myself.  $600 for unit + 
> $100 for tools.  Been working for 2 years.
> 3rd system, 36Kbtu, 4 head unit in rental.  ~$2000, did it myself, been 
> working fine for over a year.
> 4th and 5th systems, 9K btu each in my house.  Each cost about $700.  I made 
> an error on one and screwed up a fitting and lineset.  Called 5 local HVAC 
> guys.  4 refused to even look at it, the 5th wanted $600 for the initial 
> service call.
> So I fiddled with it some more, did some damage, and decided to just replace 
> the whole unit.  Another $700.
> Still WAY WAY cheaper than having it installed by an HVAC guy.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Bobcats and Cougars, oh my!  http://john.casadelgato.com/Pets
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Re: [EVDL] Join Home Electrification on Nextdoor

[Cor van de Water via EV]

The new outdoor unit that I installed just required the unit to be
pumped to vacuum and checked for maintaining vacuum, which tells you 2
things: no leaks and no foreign materials that are outgassing/boiling
in the lines. Then it is just a matter of opening the built-in
reservoir to release the coolant to fill the lines. But any HVAC
maintenance person can do this for you. The big money and time layout
is the installation of the indoor units throughout the homes, but this
can easily be done DIY if you are careful with the lines, so then you
only have a short visit from the HVAC person to connect the lines to
the units, pump to vacuum, fill the refrigerant and bring the system
up,
Cor.

On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:00 PM EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
>
> On 3 Dec 2021 at 16:59, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
> > How do you do the freon by DIY?
>
> From what I've read, illegally.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  There is a war between the rich and poor,
>  A war between the man and the woman.
>  There is a war between the left and right,
>  A war between the black and white,
>  A war between the odd and the even.
>  There is a war between the ones who say there is a war
>  And the ones who say there isn't.
>  Why don't you come on back to the war, pick up your tiny burden.
>  Why don't you come on back to the war, let's all get even.
>
> -- Leonard Cohen
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Join Home Electrification on Nextdoor

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I see it is dedicated to San Francisco area.
Home electrification is going to happen.
I have lived in an apartment that did not have a gas connection.
In our current home, I replaced the dying central gas heater and
unrepairable airco with a modern Panasonic 5-zone heatpump, so we
still have an outdoor compressor like before (only silent due to
inverter-driven motors) and 5 indoor units, one for each bedroom with
individual temperature selection and a pair of units, installed on
opposite sides of the living/dining/kitchen area. I *love* the comfort
and silence of a precise controlled temperature in each room. If a
room is unused, simply leave that unit off and close the door and
there is no wasted heat.
Induction cooking will be our next upgrade over our current gas stove.
We already have an electric wall oven though I don't see that become
much more efficient anytime soon due to the high temps required.
I installed a natural gas powered tankless water heater to replace the
old appliance a few years ago, so it will be some time before I
consider going for heat pump water heater, but they are installed in
bulk now.
We have a gas clothes dryer as that freed up the 30A circuit to power
a Level 2 charging station (see, this post is still on-topic) also
because our house connection is only 100A, so we need to be efficient
with our electricity. But I have owned a heat pump clothes dryer in
the past, so it is possible to have an efficient electric dryer that
does not need 30A at 240V.
The main trend is towards efficient electric appliances and I
certainly see that trend away from natural gas use in homes.
BTW, despite the electric heating and cooling of our home and
occasional EV charging, we still stay within Baseline consumption,
which means less than about 10kWh a day.
Cor.

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 12:44 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV
 wrote:
>
> https://nextdoor.com/g/cd7f0gycj/  People here discuss issues relating to 
> 100% electric homes. So far so good for us. $450 total energy cost last year. 
> Transportation and house.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] What type of magic is this nut and where to get a tool for it?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Remember, we are talking over 250 cells here. Grinding through 250
heavy bus bars is nigh impossible, let alone welding nuts on top of
the half dome ones, because it is over 500 nuts...
In the mean time I have sacrified a 1/2" orphan socket that I had
laying around and cut 5 tines on it, then tried to file them having a
rounded inside as much as possible. It is not a great fit, but with a
bit of convincing I can get the nuts to turn and thus taking the
flooded NiCds out is the next step. They still seem to have 10%
residual voltage after ~6 years neglect (no charging). Anybody have 20
planes that need a starter battery?
Cor.

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 1:18 PM Haudy Kazemi via EV  wrote:
>
> Another option, if losing the bus bars is okay, might be to cut the bus
> bars in half (sawzall + shopvac to control metal dust ?), and then try to
> push/pull each bar end piece in the direction that should loosen each nut
> (counterclockwise). The nut only needs to turn enough to loosen the nut so
> that fingers or an about-to-slip vise grip can take over. A quarter turn
> may be enough.
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 13:52 EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
>
> > On 19 Nov 2021 at 14:28, Cal Frye via EV wrote:
> >
> > > Pin punch and a light hammer?
> >
> > Might work.
> >
> > Another thought - I've never tried such a thing, but I wonder if you could
> > spot-weld larger sacrificial hex nuts to the top of the security nuts.  I
> > suppose that might be hazardous with the possibility of hydrogen hanging
> > round.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >  Q:  What do you call a principal female opera singer whose
> >  high C is lower than those of other principal female
> >  opera singers?
> >  A:  A deep C diva.
> >
> >  -- Anonymous
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
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