Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Cybertruck buyer's remorse not allowed?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Trying to head off the scalpers. Makes sense from that POV.

On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 7:01 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> I've been saying for years that if you buy a Tesla, you don't really own
> it.
>
> It seems that goes double for the Cybertruck.
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-sue-cybertruck-buyers-they-resell-in-
> first-year-2023-11
> 
>
> shortcut URL: https://v.gd/QA68vz
>
> I'm sure there must be a good reason for this - right?
>
> Would or will YOU agree to it?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
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>  humorless, so they have no defense against laughter and derision.
>
>-- Anonymous
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV's not a green success.

[Michael Ross via EV]

Musk proposed a seat of the pants estimate in an interview about how much
solar array surface area would produce as much energy as THE ENTIRE HUMAN
RACE.
He used the output of average solar equipment at less than optimal
output (I forget, maybe it was 15% efficient cells).

I did my own seat of the pants order of magnitude estimate, looking at all
the fossil fuels burned, nuke generated energy, geothermal, hydro, etc. I
think he could defend it.

However, it is not practical. The sun moves across the sky at a degree
every 4 minutes. You can get pretty good output from contemporaneous panels
that are at a 30 degree incident angle. You need to have additional 100
mile on a side solar farms spaced appropriately around the entire earth and
the wire infrastructure to support it. You would need some redundancy to
handle cloudiness. Or maybe a feces load of batteries, pump storage,
gravity storage, something storage. Suffice it to say you have to have a
lot of these arrays all around the earth, and maybe between the tropics of
cancer and capricorn. Tricky 'cause there is a lot of ocean out there.

I found his thought experiment useful to highlight just how much power the
sun sends our way. You can barely see a 100 mile square plot of lane from
space. It is truly tine compared to the surface of the earth.

On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 6:43 PM paul dove  wrote:

> Elon Musk said he can power the whole US with 100 square miles on solar
> panels in Arizona
>
> SNIP
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV's not a green success.

[Michael Ross via EV]

On Mon, Nov 6, 2023 at 3:40 PM 63urban via EV  wrote:

> Please explain how a flammable gas is not an energy source?


Propane, from the gas in a well - capture it, light it, it burns and heat
is released. There are tons of calories in oil or natural gas.

Hydrogen cracked from the gas and oil from a well - is a source of heat
energy.
The energy to segregate the hydrogen is less than what is generated when it
is burned. It depends on the contents of the well output how efficient this
is. There are old wells in Ohio and Penn that are 50% carbon dioxide. Not
an efficient way to go.

Hydrogen electrolyzed from water (with electrons from solar, or wind if it
is renewable, lignite or coal or similar if not renewable) at great cost in
electric power and with poor efficiency - is better described as a
transport medium, but it provides energy by burning (another loss of
efficiency). If you just have some H laying around, I suppose it is worth
using, but if you have to work for it very much it is not high in calories.,

So "flammable gas" is a very squishy concept. So is energy source versus
energy transport medium.


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Re: [EVDL] EV's not a green success.

[Michael Ross via EV]

I note a couple things about Zeihan's POV: He is talking about global
defossilizing. Not mere vehicle electrification. We face the fact that EVs
are just a small part of what needs solving.
If he is correct, and his business is doing the math, we need to work on
things that have a possibility of helping on a global scale. Much as I hate
the idea, all 7 billion of us need nuclear solutions. There is a place for
solar and wind, but the sun doesn't shine enough where we need it and same
with wind. We should not waste our precious time and treasure on faulty
plans.

All the comments on this thread have failed to actually understand what he
is talking about, or even watch it, seemingly.

It is just arithmetic he is presenting. What is he getting wrong?

He says if you add up all the copper in the world, how it has to get used,
where more comes from, the time it takes to ramp production, accounting for
recycling, and so on, we are in trouble. Likewise, paladiums, tin, aluminum
(take enormous amounts of electricity), magnet materials, and so on, we
come up way short.

None of you out here make it your business to ferret out all the details.
This is Zeihan's business and he has research staff behind him. I recommend
his most recent book which has a very interesting chapter on industrial
materials. It is short and not fleshed out fully, but I follow his logic,
and don't believe he has anything pushing him to make stuff up. He likes
the outdoors and wants a clean environment. But, he seems certain that
making any headway won't come from electrification except after many
decades, potentially a century. If he is anywhere near correct, then we
need to reconfigure our efforts. Now.



On Sun, Nov 5, 2023, 2:19 PM Thos True via EV  wrote:

> I find it difficult to believe that we are once again being drawn into the
> argument that the grid cannot support the demand for EV's.
> Society has been in this situation several times since the early 1900's.
> With each new electrical product's popularity (televisions, refrigerators,
> air conditioners, hot tubs, washers and dryers, motorhomes, Mcmansions,
> housing developments, fast food restaurants, factories, etc), the same
> fearful cry was heard. Development of "the grid" has been ahead of demand
> in the majority of markets,  as they are a business that wants to sell as
> much of their products as possible. Even when the demand levels off,
> utilities are continuously upgrading the equipment with more efficient
> devices to maximize output utilizing the same foot print ( fenced in
> facilities, usually).
> Most vehicles use around the same amount of electricity per charge as
> running a dryer for a couple of cycles (how many people think twice about
> doing that?).
> Just my 2 watts worth,
> Tom True
>
> On Sat, Nov 4, 2023, 5:32 PM EV@TucsonEV via EV  wrote:
>
> > Well, once again, it looks like the thread has strayed from EV's into
> > politics...
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Rush Dougherty
> > TucsonEV
> > 1014 E King St
> > Tucson AZ 85719
> > 520 240 7493
> > www.TucsonEV.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   EV List Lackey wrote -
> > > "To understand the Republican party, or the Democratic party, for that
> > matter,
> > it is
> > > most efficient to look directly at the clients -- or as political
> > scientist
> > Thomas
> > > Ferguson would call them, the 'major investors.'
> > > On that level, the ideological contradictions are unimportant.
> Political
> > parties do
> > > function as mediating institutions, just not for voters."
> > >
> > > -- William Greider, "Who Will Tell the People"
> >
> > Well, once again, it looks like the thread has strayed from EV's into
> > politics...
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Rush Dougherty
> > TucsonEV
> > www.TucsonEV.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
> >
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[EVDL] EV's not a green success.

[Michael Ross via EV]

I can't evaluate this. But I approve of the broad stroke analysis.
He thinks it could take a century to replace ICE with EVs. Among other
things.
Why EVs Aren't The GreenTech Panacea || Peter Zeihan
https://youtu.be/8P95NFlAnmY?si=T460QtOCo9lwqfsz
Bottom line for him, we should be spending our time and treasure on things
that will actually make us greener.
Bottom line for me, I bet we don't succeed with anything. There is no will
or way as far as I can tell.
The US has more means to do good than anyone one else, and here we are
shutting down the EPA and so on.

-- 
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737  Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and
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Re: [EVDL] 'Facts' about EV's debunked

[Michael Ross via EV]

The "moving to Canada" comment was just a crack to get a rise from someone.
A light troll.

Me: Boy Scout doing conservation work at age 12. Always leave any place you
go cleaner than when you arrived. Never litter. Clean up roadsides. Solar
on home. Worked testing solar thermal collectors for certification.
Custom testing of same. Bought and beta tested an Organic Transit Elf.
Tried to start a lab for evaluating lithium ion cells. Electric mower.
Electric Pressure washer. Support green politics. Donate to green causes.
Install efficient appliances when possible. Recycle what can be recycled.
Etc.

I want a clean, cool earth. I just don't think we will succeed. But,* if we
are unrealistic about this effort, then that is just another weight on the
wrong side of the scale. *

I don't think current lithium battery tech supports widespread use of EVs
without decades of infrastructure construction. Mines are the first step.
We need to stop putting solar where the sun isn't and turbines that don't
work where the energy resource is lacking. So if we try to collect solar
where the sun actually shines, the grid that supports the effort is many
times what we already have. We are not taking steps to solve so many
components of our problem.

It is a human problem at the heart of it. We don't react well to things
that don't smack us in the face, and plenty of very motivated people with
the capital to do something don't think it matters, or they are more
interested in trying to monetize the chaos (like believing we can move
towards the poles). We have not evolved the mentation, and cognitive biases
that would aim towards collectively solving this dire situation.

On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 11:22 PM Cor van de Water 
wrote:

> Michael E Ross wrote:
> > Yeah, unlimited is hyperbolic, but
> > there is no limit in my lifetime.
>
> I do not know if you have kids or nieces and nephews, heck even friends
> with kids. Is that what you tell them if they want to know if the earth
> will still be liveable in *their* lifetime?
> I can't look my kids in the eye without considering what I did to try and
> make their life and their future kids' still worth living.
> I am afraid that "not in my lifetime" is one of the reasons we are in this
> mess in the first place...
> Cor.
>


-- 
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Re: [EVDL] 'Facts' about EV's debunked

[Michael Ross via EV]

Just because the effort to electrify is not going to be completely
successful doesn't mean I don't want it done. Buying land in Canada might
be a reasonable response compared to trying to green up the whole world.
Going electric world wide will take perhaps 4 times the production of
copper that the earth sustains at this time. It is there, but I don't see
humans getting it together to do it.

There are all sorts of other elementary inputs that we do not
currently produce at quantities and rates anything near what it will take
to green up enough to make a difference. It is a bad pickle but it is what
it is.

One mitigating factor is the demographics of the world's population - it
has the population shrinking very significant amounts in the next half
century.

On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 11:17 PM Michael Ross 
wrote:

> Considering the needs to maintain the manufacturing of the past decade,
> Europe has essentially none. Germany is burning lignite, for example.
> France has nukes to hold them together. That is about it. Norway? They
> would rather not use petroleum, and make the right moves to avoid it. Norge
> can't support the rest of the continent.
>
> We have shale tech and I have read there is more than 50 years worth that
> we know about. Yeah, unlimited is hyperbolic, but there is no limit in my
> lifetime.
>
> There isn't enough copper (and so on) to electrify what uses petrol now,
> not in my lifetime. The greatest suppliers we prefer not to use - Russia in
> particular. There is copper in South America, but mines don't come on line
> overnight, more like over a decade.
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 10:56 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> On 28 Oct 2023 at 18:10, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>>
>> > Europe and North America not comparable where fossil fuels are
>> concerned.
>> > EU has none and we have an unlimited supply.
>>
>> I'm not an expert on this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't say
>> Europe has none.  From what I've read, Norway may not pump as much as the
>> US, but it's still a significant petroleum and natural gas producer.
>>
>> A few other EU countries, and the UK, contribute smaller amounts.
>>
>> Nor do I think that it's quite fair to say that the US has an unlimited
>> fossil fuel supply.  No nation does.  The US acts like it does, though.
>>
>> The sincerity is a bit suspect, but Western Europe at least makes
>> concerned
>> noises about reducing carbon emissions.  They're trying.  New passenger
>> ICEVs are banned from 2035.  Already I see more EVs in this tiny rural
>> French town than I ever saw in the medium size Ohio cities around where I
>> lived.
>>
>> Right now the US is tentatively making carbon-control noises, but their
>> past
>> and their likely future direction is for them to pump it and burn it
>> until
>> it's gone (and we are).
>>
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>>
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
>>  Blockchain is an elaborate workaround for a very specific problem:
>>  verifying irreversible transfers of value without a centralized
>>  authority. In other words, it's a computationally burdensome way to
>>  hate the government.
>>
>>  -- Sarah Jeong
>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
>> ___
>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
>> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>>
>>
>
> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
> Google Phone and Text
>
>
>
>

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Re: [EVDL] 'Facts' about EV's debunked

[Michael Ross via EV]

Considering the needs to maintain the manufacturing of the past decade,
Europe has essentially none. Germany is burning lignite, for example.
France has nukes to hold them together. That is about it. Norway? They
would rather not use petroleum, and make the right moves to avoid it. Norge
can't support the rest of the continent.

We have shale tech and I have read there is more than 50 years worth that
we know about. Yeah, unlimited is hyperbolic, but there is no limit in my
lifetime.

There isn't enough copper (and so on) to electrify what uses petrol now,
not in my lifetime. The greatest suppliers we prefer not to use - Russia in
particular. There is copper in South America, but mines don't come on line
overnight, more like over a decade.


On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 10:56 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 28 Oct 2023 at 18:10, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > Europe and North America not comparable where fossil fuels are concerned.
> > EU has none and we have an unlimited supply.
>
> I'm not an expert on this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't say
> Europe has none.  From what I've read, Norway may not pump as much as the
> US, but it's still a significant petroleum and natural gas producer.
>
> A few other EU countries, and the UK, contribute smaller amounts.
>
> Nor do I think that it's quite fair to say that the US has an unlimited
> fossil fuel supply.  No nation does.  The US acts like it does, though.
>
> The sincerity is a bit suspect, but Western Europe at least makes
> concerned
> noises about reducing carbon emissions.  They're trying.  New passenger
> ICEVs are banned from 2035.  Already I see more EVs in this tiny rural
> French town than I ever saw in the medium size Ohio cities around where I
> lived.
>
> Right now the US is tentatively making carbon-control noises, but their
> past
> and their likely future direction is for them to pump it and burn it until
> it's gone (and we are).
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  Blockchain is an elaborate workaround for a very specific problem:
>  verifying irreversible transfers of value without a centralized
>  authority. In other words, it's a computationally burdensome way to
>  hate the government.
>
>  -- Sarah Jeong
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>

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Re: [EVDL] 'Facts' about EV's debunked

[Michael Ross via EV]

Europe and North America not comparable where fossil fuels are concerned.
EU has none and we have an unlimited supply. We won't resist cheap energy.
Count on it.

On Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 5:10 PM EV@TucsonEV via EV  wrote:

>
> https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-about-electric-vehicle
> s/
> 
>
>
>
> Great detailed explanations about the lies that get talked about for EV's.
> Studies done mainly in UK and Europe, but certainly applicable to us here
> in the
> US.
>
>
>
> A great link to keep for future reference or to send to your gas/diesel
> guzzling
> friends.
>
>
>
> I just love the one about Hydrogen, the amount of cars using hydrogen is
> just a
> rounding error for EV's!
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Rush Dougherty
>
> TucsonEV
>
> www.TucsonEV.com 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?

[Michael Ross via EV]

I think the Model 3 has less automation than the higher end models. (This
could be dated info) I have always wondered how amortizing the automation
do-overs shows up in cost accounting. In more than one instance Tesla had
to back away from some automation and rethink.  Likewise with battery pack
design. Tesla has tried a lot of new ideas (aluminum body/chassis).

The legacy auto companies have advantages by not starting from scratch at
essential auto manufacturing, and being able to reverse engineer Teslas,
don't think they don't. We should not assume the engineers, managers and
worker bees at legacy plants are inferior to Tesla. They might be less good
at trying new stuff over and over, and better at the basics. I would guess
that legacy cars will have efficiency advantages for a long time. Financial
advantages, too.

I am biased, I have bought Tesla stock more due to the battery business
rather than car making. I never believed the legacy manufacturers would not
catch up pretty fast when they put their efforts into it. There is a reason
why decades passed before new car companies appeared. It is damned hard to
do.



On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 7:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 17 Oct 2023 at 0:27, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > I am not buying  these figures on unknown say so. Sounds like BS. Just
> > whose EVs and whose batteries? Which models?
>
> Here's the original article, with some discussion of methodology.
>
> https://heatmap.news/electric-vehicles/evs-trump-uaw-jobs-evidence
>
> > Anna Stefanopoulou, a professor of mechanical engineering at the
> > University of Michigan, has been investigating three manufacturing
> > sites that used to produce conventional cars and are now producing
> > EVs: A Tesla factory in California that used to be a jointly-owned
> > facility between GM and Toyota that produced Pontiacs and Corollas; a
> > Rivian plant in Illinois that previously produced Mitsubishis; and the
> > Orion Assembly plant in Michigan, where GM transitioned from producing
> > Chevy Sonics and Buick Veranos to electric Chevy Bolts ... Each one is
> > producing fewer vehicles per worker than they were before, meaning
> > it´s taking more people per vehicle to produce electric cars. The
> > California site, which has been producing EVs for the longest out of
> > the three, showed the most dramatic change. At its peak, the GM/Toyota
> > plant produced 80 vehicles per person per year. The Tesla plant
> > averages 30.
> >
> > Stefanopoulou ... predicts that after a decade or so, as processes
> > become more streamlined, the commonly-held belief that EV assembly
> > requires less labor will turn out to be correct. However, she also said
> > that if she were to consider battery cell production, as Cotterman did,
> > EV production on the whole could require more people.
>
> That's just the central point and there are qualifications.  I suggest
> that
> you read the entire piece at the above link.
>
> The Tesla vs GM/Toyota vehicle productivity hit really surprises me.  I
> thought that Tesla had gone all in for automation.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  Things I once thought were funny are scary now. I often feel
>  like a resident of Pompeii who has been asked for some
>  humorous comments on lava.
>
>-- Tom Lehrer
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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>

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?

[Michael Ross via EV]

I am not buying  these figures on unknown say so. Sounds like BS. Just
whose EVs and whose batteries? Which models?
A thousand unanswered intelligent questions need answering.

On the other hand I have not seen anything about the carbon footprint of EV
production. That goes both ways too, and is pretty speculative. Tech gets
better, more mines come into service. Supply chains improve. Production
matures.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 7:52 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/10/striking-uaw-workers-win-key-battery-
> plant-concession-from-general-motors/
> 
>
> or https://v.gd/j0sNGM
>
> "In a report published on Friday, Heatmap found that once battery-cell
> production is taken into account, EVs may well require more workers
> [hours]
> than vehicles with internal combustion engines ...The conventional [ICEV]
> powertrains took 4 to 11 worker hours, while the EV powertrains took 15 to
> 24 ... '"
>
> It seems that the autoworkers' unions are concerned about job losses
> building EVs - which might indeed happen.   The argument this article
> makes
> is that IF you build cells and batteries in the US with union autoworkers,
> there will be MORE labor hours in the EVs than in the ICEVs.
>
> Don't get me wrong; I'm good with autoworkers keeping their jobs.  It's
> just
> that this runs counter to what I've read about EVs for over 50 years.  EVs
> are massively simpler than ICEVs, with fewer precision moving parts.  Does
> battery production cancel all that out?  Are cell and battery
> manufacturing
> not automated?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  When I was born, I was black. When I grow up, I'm black. When I'm ill,
>  I'm black. When I die, I'm black. But you - when you're born, you're
>  pink. When you grow up, you're white. When you're ill, you're green.
>  When you go out in the sun, you go red. When you're cold, you go
> blue.
>  When you die, you're purple. And you have the nerve to call me
> colored?
>
>-- Malcolm X
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[Michael Ross via EV]

Boy, would I like this to work.
I must say that, *on vehicle, solar charging* seems to me a *marketing
strategy*, *not a useful design feature*.

Here in central NC we get, at very best, 1000 watts per square meter, that
is not all day long, maybe 6 hours of peak sun. We don't get that daily by
any stretch of the imagination.
Reality is always less, and way less factoring the clouds that go with 50"
of rain a year. That is for a surface that is not substantially turned away
from the sun or shaded in any way.
Then the efficiency of the collector might be 20%, or 200 watts per hour at
best.

I didn't see much info about the solar aperture of the Aptera, but a square
meter might not be out of line.

So, at 10kWh per 10 miles, I see the Aptera getting 10 miles worth of power
in 5 hours of really good sunlight. A full days worth where I live.

They are claiming:
*1,000 miles on a single charge *(I love this!)

*40 miles of solar powered driving per day *
Not so sure this is possible. I could take 20 hours of the best solar
charging to get enough power for 40 miles.

Those array elements look fanciful for getting 20% efficiency. But, they
look like more than a square meter. I am going to call it a wash.

There is going to be thousands of $ in that solar apparatus.
I would call that needless complication for marketing purposes.
Give me anything else, softer seats, a good stereo, good air flow perhaps
from fans, and let me plug it in the wall to get charged.

Mike

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 10:40 AM David Heacock via EV 
wrote:

> It is interesting to note in all this discussion of charging that Aptera,
> long before the OEMs decided to go with the Tesla plug, actually submitted
> a petition for adoption of the Tesla plug nationwide.  Of course, most
> people thought that was a stupid idea and figured it would never happen.
> However, Aptera did decide to use the plug for their vehicles when they
> come to production.
>
> In an effort to increase the range of EVs most companies adopted the plan
> of just installing a bigger battery pack which increased weight and most
> likely decreased overall efficiency.  The result is naturally longer
> charging times and efforts to increase the capacity of the charging units
> themselves.  Aptera has taken a different approach by building a very
> efficient design so that a smaller battery pack is needed to actually get a
> greater range.  And go figure, the smaller battery pack takes less time to
> charge.  While most OEMs are looking at maybe 3-5 miles per kWh, Aptera is
> shooting for 10 miles per kWh.
>
> Since the average driving range per day is less than 40 or 50 miles the
> question becomes why would most people even need to stop and fast charge
> when they can simply plug in at home at night when the electric rates may
> be much lower and have a fully charged EV the next morning. Obviously there
> are people who don’t have access to chargers in apartments and such but
> might  have access to 115 volt outlets at work or at an apartment complex.
> I leased a 2013 Nissan Leaf for three years and for the first two years I
> simply plugged it into a 115 outlet in my garage.  Of course I was retired
> at the time and didn’t drive much per day but again a lot of people don’t
> drive all that far to work and back.  But what about not needing to charge
> at all for most of the time using solar?  Well Aptera is trying to solve
> that problem also with solar on the vehicle itself so that when the vehicle
> is parked at work you can actually add range for your trip home.  If Aptera
> can realize a range of 10 miles per kWh then it will not take much solar to
> provide maybe 20 miles or so per day which is probably more than enough for
> most commutes. There are some here that say that is not possible but again,
> at one point not so long ago, adoption of the Tesla plug was a stupid idea
> as was Amazon.
>
> To be honest I am a supporter of Aptera and have an order in for one.
> Might not happen, but then again…….
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Re: [EVDL] Why Toyota Isn't Rushing to Sell You an Electric

[Michael Ross via EV]

Lee. Auminum is also on the problem list same any other that Russia has a
major portion of global production. They are a top source for ag chemicals:
nitrogen, potash and phosphorus fertilizers. In the US we won't be
strained, but it's a problem elsewhere. We (the global we) don't grow food
enough for 6 billion people without those fertilizers. Ukraine alone is 10%
of global calories.

On Fri, May 19, 2023, 3:30 PM Lee Hart  wrote:

> Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> > An EV on average requires 5 times as much copper as an ICEV...
>
> That seems a bit extreme. ICEs are also increasingly loaded with copper,
> thanks to the preponderance of creature features and infotainment systems.
>
> Copper is also highly recyclable, and there are alternatives like aluminum.
>
> There are always more solutions than problems. We just have to look for
> them.
>
> Lee
>
> --
> Whatever the problem, be part of the solution. Don’t just sit
> around raising questions and pointing out obstacles. -- Tina Fey
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
>
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Re: [EVDL] Why Toyota Isn't Rushing to Sell You an Electric

[Michael Ross via EV]

Hi Lee,

There are many ways to quibble over this. The accounting I read estimates
the copper that is used in all the ICE currently on the road worldwide, and
estimates the total copper in a 100% BEV global fleet to be 5 times
greater. During the course of retiring that ICE fleet there would be
recycling of copper. I haven't thought super hard about this, but I assume
a large part is in the batteries, and the motors have a big load of Cu.
Then there would be bus bars,presumed to be copper for lower resistance.
EVs have a lot more electronics in them, although that is not the fault of
the EV, more the attachment to cameras, bigger computers. and so on. There
is electric HVAC.

The total number of Teslas is just under 4M, and the total of all cars is
just under 1.5B. That is a factor of 375. All the Teslas are 1/375th of the
total number of ICE worldwide.

Similar issues will arise with all electronics but mostly because of the
failure of the large sources of palladiums (Pt, Ir, Os, etc.),the stuff it
takes to make 10nm ICs. Neon for lasers comes from Mariupol where pig iron
is no longer made. THere are so many other sources of un-supply that are
needed for EVs. Basically the supply chains are going to be hosed for a
good minimum of 10 years. The whole green future is hazy at best for 20 or
more years. Maybe this is all worst case thinking, and we can do better.
Lots of money to be made rearranging the industrial world, but it's not
going to be easy at all.

Anyway, Toyota may have run some numbers like this and decided they can
happily make an enormous number of ICE while a tiny fraction of EVs are
made.

Mike


On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 3:30 PM Lee Hart  wrote:

> Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> > An EV on average requires 5 times as much copper as an ICEV...
>
> That seems a bit extreme. ICEs are also increasingly loaded with copper,
> thanks to the preponderance of creature features and infotainment systems.
>
> Copper is also highly recyclable, and there are alternatives like aluminum.
>
> There are always more solutions than problems. We just have to look for
> them.
>
> Lee
>
> --
> Whatever the problem, be part of the solution. Don’t just sit
> around raising questions and pointing out obstacles. -- Tina Fey
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
>


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Re: [EVDL] Why Toyota Isn't Rushing to Sell You an Electric

[Michael Ross via EV]

An EV on average requires 5 times as much copper as an ICEV. Copper
production is stuck at that level and only supports the paltry (compared to
current ICE production and the global number of ICE) global EV production.
It will be more than a decade before copper mining can reach the level
needed to keep up with the condemnation of ICE, and full production of
global EVs.

The Russians are top 3 producers of a host of other materials without which
EV production csn not be successful. The Russians are on a demographic cul
de sac and will be unable to support a fraction of current production.
Their production could go to zero if they continue their sysisiphan ways.
For copper only Chile is a volume source.

If Toyota has sussed this out, they could end up the major supplier of ICE
for a very long time.

Wondering why Toyota seems out of step? Maybe they have crunched more
comprehensive numbers. They have been correct over the years with ICE. Why
assume they suddenly have gone stupid? May be the EV production is bubblier
than many believe.

ICE make sense in certain circumstances. Hydrogen? Hard to see how that
turns out well.

On Thu, May 18, 2023, 8:01 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

>  They seem to want to go bankrupt. Their resistance to battery EVs is
> irresponsible. It is a matter of time. They can catch up  but it will take
> time. Their hydrogen side track is not helping. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Do EVs make green sense?

[Michael Ross via EV]

*"Where do you think these idiots get their information about how much
energy it takes to build a car...or the "carbon footprint"? *

I know that people do try hard to put this sort of data in order and
analyze it. In the case of prominent geographers and demographers they have
teams of researchers and grad students cranking away at it. Just kill the
messenger, eh?

I have worked in manufacturing and the more money there is in it the more
attention it gets. If you smelt pig iron and make a multitude of
products from it, you can bet some people care a great deal how much effort
and energy goes into it. It could be BS, or it might be solid.

Comparisons can be made. Just because you would be bored by an effort
doesn't mean it can't be done or done well.

*"a different worker spends the weekend reading a book...does that affect
the "carbon  footprint"?"*

*"what about energy needed for the workers to get to and from work?" etc.*

Part of a good analysis is deciding what should be under consideration. If
you can compare directly between an ICE and an EV then there may be value
in knowing the differences and similarities.

If you don't put in some effort, then you don't have a chance to make good
decisions.

I like this retort: The plural of anecdote is not data.


On Thu, Jan 5, 2023 at 2:52 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
wrote:

>
> Where do you think these idiots get their information about how much
> energy it takes to build a car...or the "carbon footprint"?
>
> If you are actually trying to measure "energy" you need to be able to
> isolate what you are actually measuring.
>
> Where do you draw the line about how much energy it takes to build a car?
>   Is it the energy consumption of a factory?  What about the energy
> consumption of the factories of the suppliers who make the
> parts...tires...glass..plastic, the hoses, the clamps,   If a factory buys
> parts from a supplier or makes them in house, how does that enter into the
> equations?   Then if you pay a worker at your factory, and the worker
> spends his wages driving monster trucksfor fun on weekends and goes through
> 100 gallons of gas, or a different worker spends the weekend readinga
> book...does that affect the "carbon  footprint"?
>
> And then what about energy needed for the workers to get to and from
> work?  How about the energy needed to run the streetlights on the road they
> use to get to work?  How about the energy needed to heat the homes of the
> people who mine the raw materials?   How about the energy to make the food
> to feed the workers?   How about the energy used by the teachers?  The
> schools and universities?  The asphalt for the roads?
>
> Call me cynical but my guess is these people who claim to analyze carbon
> footprints are 99% full of hot air.They don't actually go out an
> measure anything, they just repeat something they read or heard, (and often
> the most provocative things tend to get repeated)  which leads to an
> endless repeating cycle of baloney by people who crave endless attention.
>
> I don't claim to have measured anything, but my common sense says an EV is
> a car and and ICE is a car and that my "guess" is that it is highly likely
> that the energy required to make them is (or could be) pretty damn
> comparable. By weight and volume the EV and the ICE are more alike than
> different.
> \
>
>
SNIP

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Re: [EVDL] Do EVs make green sense?

[Michael Ross via EV]

I am trying to understand if Zeihan has an agenda. His expertise is
understanding geography and demographics. Knowing what ingredients go into
making the world go around, and details like, what does it take to make the
unique aluminum alloy that Tesla has crafted to make body parts that are
not steel. The claim is that this is significant and the carbon
footprint of an ICE made from steel is significantly better.

Regarding the inputs to EVs, certainly the availability of lithium is not
good. Nor is it good for cobalt, or nickel.  I have spent some time
thinking about the battery business, even had conversations with Jeff Dahn
and Aaron Cross (the Tesla cell life engineer). The time and commitment to
mine and process more of these material inputs could be a serious
impediment to EV growth. Regarding LiFePO, we have enough phosphate for
current use like fertilizer for crops. It takes years to build and start
operating a phosphate mine. If LiFePO is the future, we do not have a ready
supply.

I posted so maybe I could get some wisdom that is not anecdotal. Does
anyone know about the supply side of Li batteries? In 2013 when I was
studying this topic, it did not look like a sure thing.  Do we know what
sort of carbon cost is built into them? Only JB Straubel is working the
recycling angle. How is that going?

At this moment in time, EV production is nowhere near the scale necessary
to make headway reducing carbon in the atmosphere. It could be we are years
or decades from solving this. That is the gist of Zeihan's assertion. Now
that we are getting shale oil in North America, that cost is way less for
us in the US. That alone can damage the transition to EVs from ICE.

I think there is a lot of guesswork being presented to the effect that EVs
are going to be with us soon, en masse.


On Thu, Jan 5, 2023 at 1:59 AM Steves via EV  wrote:

> Haven’t read the article, but perhaps he assumes virgin aluminum, which is
> very energy intensive. However even if virgin aluminum is used, 90% of big
> scrap (like car) aluminum is recycled, so that energy is essentially
> reclaimed out the back end.
>
> One has to read this kind of stuff very carefully. My dad was a staunch
> conservative and listened religiously to Rush Limbaugh. RL was ranting one
> day about laws to give up regular lightbulbs for CFLs, and if you broke a
> CFL your house became a hazmat area due the (minuscule) amount of mercury.
> I had to explain that since most of our energy comes from coal, and coal
> has mercury, that regular bulbs, being so inefficient, cause much more
> mercury to be spewed into the atmosphere over the bulbs lifetime.
>
> That’s why I haven’t bothered reading the article. Beware of people with
> agendas.
>
> -Steve
>
> > On Jan 4, 2023, at 11:36 PM, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > Zeihan says ICE looks a lot better and leans on the aluminum in the
> Tesla
> > bodywork. I wonder about this, but don't know how to evaluate it.
> >
> >> On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 4:36 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Just one of the many issues to point out:
> >>
> >>> On 1/4/2023 12:29 PM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> >>> The carbon footprint of Teslas
> >>> is not good when you correctly factor in the manufacturing footprint.
> >>
> >>
> >> Do the same calcs for a Gas car - which makes the EV look far better.
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
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> > (919) 585-6737 Land
> > (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
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Re: [EVDL] Do EVs make green sense?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Zeihan says ICE looks a lot better and leans on the aluminum in the Tesla
bodywork. I wonder about this, but don't know how to evaluate it.

On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 4:36 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
wrote:

> Just one of the many issues to point out:
>
> On 1/4/2023 12:29 PM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> > The carbon footprint of Teslas
> > is not good when you correctly factor in the manufacturing footprint.
>
>
> Do the same calcs for a Gas car - which makes the EV look far better.
>
>
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[EVDL] Do EVs make green sense?

[Michael Ross via EV]

That subject is a bit of a troll, but I would like to have some
conversation about whether EVs really make green sense or even profitable
manufacturing sense.

This is a short YouTube video by Peter Zeihan. Entitled
EV's Not-so-little Dirty Secret(s)
https://youtu.be/Qf85EuQKWeQ
or search on YouTube for the title

I hate it that on many points he is correct, but some others are not, but
not necessarily in a good way.

PZ is a demographer and geographer. He says that globalization (which was
enabled by the US Naval presence in the shipping lanes since WWII) has
ceased to exist and a lot of unsuccessful geographies are at the tipping
point of big failure. Also Russia is dying, and China is even worse off.
10% of the world's calories came from Ukraine. Russia is a major source of
big ag fertilizers. In a year we will be talking about global famine like
we have not seen if the geopols are right.

Anyway he is worth listening to.

Regarding green tech, it is one of many tech that are dependent on
globalization and in many ways on oil production. There is a lot to say
which I won't try to explain. If you want to hear educated guesses about
the next decades with only a fraction of manufactured production worldwide,
check out Zeihan or the other geopoliticians out there.

Regarding EVs, and Tesla in particular, PZ has a very good grip on where
the material inputs come from, how long, and what it takes to ramp up
production of things like new production of nickel, cobalt, neon, lithium,
zinc, semiconductors, the energy cost for special aluminum for bodywork,
and so on, and on, and on. It is not good. The carbon footprint of Teslas
is not good when you correctly factor in the manufacturing footprint. He
also notes that they are still a luxury car that is very often not the
primary vehicle, but is instead a third or even forth car. That makes for a
very long payback period before EVs start to look C neutral. He makes a
good point that the carbon side of this only really works for light duty
vehicles. The Ford eF150 is what, $90k?


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Michael Ross via EV]

Unrelated to EVs, EU and China are demographically and geographically
doomed. Especially China.

On Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 5:17 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 19 Dec 2022 at 20:44, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>
> > If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else
> > surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might
> > have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE
> > industry.
>
> "Someone else" was already advancing the production EV movement by the
> time
> the model S arrived.  The Mitsubishi Imiev and Nissan Leaf were ahead of
> it,
> and IIRC the Renault Zoe (not offered in the US) launched at around the
> same
> time.
>
> Tesla certainly had some innovations that those EVs didn't have. Some were
> substantial, but many were just luxury gadgets.
>
> Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich folks,
> especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash.  Those gadgets and
> gimmicks were part of the appeal.
>
> That was easy for Musk to push, because he was already then such an
> obscenely rich person.
>
> To this day, Teslas are based not on what research shows the average
> driver
> needs, but on what appeals to Elon Musk.  If you don't like what he likes,
> tough luck.
>
> That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales,
> Renault,
> Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe.  They
> actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income
> Europoeans
> are buying them.  And despite what all y'all may think, I'm still
> convinced
> that the future success of EVs is mostly in the EU and China, not here in
> the US.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  A good question is never answered.  It is not a bolt to be
>  tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear
>  more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of ideas.
>
>   -- John Ciardi
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Michael Ross via EV]

The commercial success of iMIEV versus Tesla is demonstrative that Tesla's
was much better route to jump starting the paradigm. Why are you so
bothered that someone makes a lot of money? It takes people who can raise
and spend well to make the first world we all enjoy so much.

I do like the iMIEV, and it would be much more the sort of car I woulf buy,
but I never have actually seen one.

I am curious if you are also exersized at J B Straubel? Tesla needed his
efforts to succeed and J B made some scratch too.

On Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 5:17 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 19 Dec 2022 at 20:44, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>
> > If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else
> > surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might
> > have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE
> > industry.
>
> "Someone else" was already advancing the production EV movement by the
> time
> the model S arrived.  The Mitsubishi Imiev and Nissan Leaf were ahead of
> it,
> and IIRC the Renault Zoe (not offered in the US) launched at around the
> same
> time.
>
> Tesla certainly had some innovations that those EVs didn't have. Some were
> substantial, but many were just luxury gadgets.
>
> Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich folks,
> especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash.  Those gadgets and
> gimmicks were part of the appeal.
>
> That was easy for Musk to push, because he was already then such an
> obscenely rich person.
>
> To this day, Teslas are based not on what research shows the average
> driver
> needs, but on what appeals to Elon Musk.  If you don't like what he likes,
> tough luck.
>
> That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales,
> Renault,
> Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe.  They
> actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income
> Europoeans
> are buying them.  And despite what all y'all may think, I'm still
> convinced
> that the future success of EVs is mostly in the EU and China, not here in
> the US.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  A good question is never answered.  It is not a bolt to be
>  tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear
>  more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of ideas.
>
>   -- John Ciardi
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla - car company from scratch

[Michael Ross via EV]

My best friend had a Bugeyed Sprite, It had a 900cc engine and a friend of
ours could pick up the rear end of it while you swapped tires.

It had nothing much that is required for a road worthy car today. It was
basically a go cart with a bigger engine, wipers and a few tiny lights. You
could not sell a car like that and homologate it in different markets.

Musk always made it perfectly clear that he only wanted to pave the way for
EVs to be a possibility in the current environment.

I don't see how we can fault him for using whatever it took to do so. No
one else was going to do it. Talk and play at it maybe, but no one was
doing it.

You can want an inexpensive little car, but he was correct to choose the S,
a luxury model, to be the first concentration. The guy was willing to spend
every penny he had numerous times back then to keep EVs and SpaceX going. I
suspect he is amazed he became so wealthy, and I wouldn't bet against him
losing everything, and not feeling bad about it, trying to colonize Mars.
But, to do that he has to become wealthy, repeatedly seems.

You are going to hold that against him? It takes a special kind of crazy to
do this. Hindsight beat downs are just pathetic, IMO.


On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 4:23 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 19 Dec 2022 at 11:56, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
> > Yeah, the original Tesla Roadster used the ACP design with very little
> > change.
>
> I read somewhere (haven't taken the time to find it again) that rather
> than
> license Alan Cocconi's design, Gage and Eberhard reverse-engineered it for
> the Tesla roadster.  Considering the ethics of this move will be left as
> an
> exercise for the reader.
>
> The T-Zero was a remarkable EV for its time.  It was based on the Piontech
> Sportech kit car, and was a little more than half the weight of the Lotus
> Elise based Tesla roadster.
>
> The T-Zero's curb weight was just 895kg (1970lb), range 480km (300mi),
> efficiency 9.9kWh/100km (160Wh/mi).
>
> It could have been - IMO, SHOULD have been - turned into a production car
> with as few changes as possible.  But for whatever reasons, that's now how
> it all turned out.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  Politics is almost as exciting as war, and quite as dangerous.
>  In war you can only be killed once, but in politics many times.
>
>-- Winson Churchill
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Michael Ross via EV]

"Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34
>
> Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Battery breakthrough?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Linden's Handbook of Batteries

 https://a.co/d/9gKbVbn

That will give you an idea about the depth of past and near current battery
development.

This is important, and scads of work is done on it. But, you have to dive
into the scientific literature. Lots of papers are out there in the field
of electrochemical science. You could start looking at papers from the Jeff
Dahn lab.

This thread talks about "batteties" as if that is a specific thing.

I am going to assume the most recent comments are about lithium ion cells
with non solid electrolyte. Talking about solid state cells as if there are
common details confuses the discussion.

The current li cells have a graphene cathode and a lithium anode. The main
problem with longevity continues to be the extreme reactivity of the anode
when the cell is fully charged. It is pretty inert when discharged but when
a lot of li is relocated into the cathode the anode starts to destroy the
electrolyte. The best way around this is to not charge cells fully and come
up with protective additives to the electrolyte. Then there are
optimizations like cooling to keep temperatures low during high current
segments. Heat also accelerates cell damage.


On Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 5:08 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
wrote:

>
> I'm not chemist, but I would suspect that batteries go "bad" for lots of
> different reasons.I know a few tidbits here and there, but it seems in
> general chemicalreactions are not perfectly reversable because of unwanted
> byproducts and side effects.   I don't believe this can ever be
> completely eliminated, only
> reduced.   Molecules can always arrange themselves lots of different
> ways...good and bad.
>
> Where is a good source for literature about such things battery related?
> (especially Lifepo4 related)
> You'd think this was a highly important subject.
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 01:19:00 PM PST, Jukka Järvinen via
> EV  wrote:
>
>  Solid electrolyte can basically last ”forever”. So this is not actually
> ”news”. :)
>
> Reason why cells go broken today is the liquid electrolyte and passivation
> layers it needs. Function of time and temperature and voltage.
>
> In theory LFP cell with solid, e.g. cellulose, electrolyte can provide
> millions of cycles. Cathode already is stable enough to support that but
> for anode we need some more stable 3D steuctures. Doable and plenty of good
> ideas to be tested.
>
> -Jukka
>
>
> ke 14.12.2022 klo 22.53 Peter Eckhoff via EV 
> kirjoitti:
>
> > Normally, I would bypass something like this except that it is from
> > respected universities and their battery shows with no signs of
> > degeneration after 400 cycles.  Here is the title and link and first
> > paragraph:
> > Scientists invent ‘game-changing’ electric car battery that never
> > loses charge capacity
> >
> >
> https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/scientists-invent-game-changing-electric-car-battery-that-never-loses-charge-capacity/ar-AA15efd1?ocid=msedgdhp=U531=5703b2f9ec9647268e57552a807973cb
> >
> > " An international research team from the University of New South
> > Wales (UNSW) in Australia and Yokohama National University in Japan
> > claim the breakthrough could provide a viable and vastly superior
> > alternative to current battery technologies."
> >
> > Does anybody here know anything about this battery?
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla can't see kids?

[Michael Ross via EV]

As Musk likes to say, "the possibility of success exists." I imagine FSD
can be many times safer than human drivers. But, for some reason we will
always be harsher in our view of machine mistakes than our own.

If FSD was 10 times less likely to cause a fatality in all situations
(could be that expressway success is super good), it would be logical to go
with it, even if it fails sometimes with the corner cases - that even
humans fail at often. But, I doubt it would be accepted. In the US the deep
pockets of Tesla would be too much of a temptation for lawyers in the
liability business.

How about this: put little warning buzzers in us all to shock us into
alertness when we move towards danger? Oh yeah, that is the amygdala, it
has some bad results unrelated to actual danger.


On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 5:04 PM Peter Eckhoff via EV 
wrote:

> They all have this problem in one way or another.  The Bolt I owned
> never saw a pedestrian except once in a Blue Moon but that was about
> two years ago or so.  I drive a Tesla and see some of the problems
> they are talking about with regard to pedestrians.  Tesla is not 100%
> at all.
>
> Personally, I don't see FSD coming to any EV especially for all
> environments.  There are too many niche and standard cases that have
> to have to be considered in fractions of a second.  From the
> inattentive pedestrian,  kid coming out from behind a parked car,
> aggressive walker, etc.  No software can read a person's mind and
> intentions.  We, as humans, have a hard time guessing what a person
> might do.
>
> "Driving is too important to leave it up to self driving systems by
> themselves." and I think that's the bottom line.  You have to make the
> driver aware of situations but not take over and be a "be all" for
> everything.  I hope Tesla is finally learning that lesson.  I'm not
> sure fi Mr. Musk will ever capitulate.  I hope he does.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 4:27 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > I used to worry about what it would do to EVs' reputation if someday an
> > unisolated or defective charger electrocuted a kid touching the EV.
> This is
> > potentially almost as destructive.  If further research confirms this
> flaw,
> > Tesla has a lot of work to do, and fast.
> >
> > -
> >
> > Tesla´s self-driving technology fails to detect children in the road,
> tests
> > find
> >
> > Professional test driver using Tesla´s Full Self-Driving mode repeatedly
> hit
> > a child-sized mannequin in its path
> >
> > In several tests, a professional test driver found that the [FSD beta]
> > software - released in June - failed to detect the child-sized figure at
> an
> > average speed of 25mph and the car then hit the mannequin. [...]
> >
> > At the company´s shareholder meeting earlier this month Musk said that
> Full
> > Self-Driving has greatly improved, and he expected to make the software
> > available by the end of the year to all owners [who] request it. But
> > questions about its safety continue to mount.
> >
> > In June, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) said
> it
> > was expanding an investigation into 830,000 Tesla cars across all four
> > current model lines ... A second NHTSA investigation is also under way to
> > determine if the removal of the forward-looking radar sensor on some
> newer
> > Teslas is causing the vehicles to apply their brakes for no reason,
> which is
> > called "phantom braking" and can lead to wrecks. [...]
> >
> > Full story:
> >
> > https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/09/tesla-self-driving-
> > technology-safety-children
> >
> > Shortcut URL:
> >
> > https://v.gd/y6Bos3
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >  People don't sleep enough, and they all seem to be hunting
> >  something that can't be caught.  You think you're the dominant
> >  species just because you go to the bathroom in a bowl instead
> >  of a box.  But who's cleaning up after whom?
> >
> >-- Souseme, "Felines of New York"
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
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> >
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Re: [EVDL] no more "iced" chargers ?

[Michael Ross via EV]

It is pretty easy to do the math here, simple arithmetic. The sun shines
maybe 1100W/meter ^2, that is the peak. Current efficiency of solar PV is
no more than 20%. So 220W/m^2. One square meter will get you 1kWhour in a
little less than 5 hours. You might get 6 peak hours on a really sunny day,
but this varies up a little and definitely down. Clouds are hell. Parking
in the shade is hell, driving around is hell.

Seems to me you are not going to get anything but the tiniest fraction of
what is needed to move a store bought EV around with onboard PV.



On Sun, Jul 17, 2022 at 7:41 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 17 Jul 2022 at 13:15, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:
>
> > The point being, not every idea makes sense from the standpoint of
> > practicality and consumer acceptance
>
> As I see it, and admittedly I'm not an expert, for solar EVs with onboard
> PV
> to be really practical - for widespread adoption rather than as showoff
> rich
> boy toys - a few little tweaks need to happen.
>
> - PV conversion efficiency has to improve radically
> - PV cost has to decline radically
> - PV durability has to increase radically
>
> Impossible?  Of course not, but when?  It took about 25 years for EV
> lithium
> batteries to get from notion to production EVs.
>
> Also, don't forget the environmental changes needed to keep the sun
> shining
> on solar EVs.
>
> - Remove trees and buildings blocking sunlight from roads and parking
> - Tear down garages and carports (or use them for other things)
> - Disperse clouds and banish rain
> - Ideally, eliminate night and winter :-\
>
> No matter how good PV tech gets, it will ALWAYS make more sense to put
> your
> PV on your house and/or garage, save the output in a battery or the grid,
> and charge your EV with that energy at night.
>
> But the solar-car true believers just won't wake up from the dream of a
> car
> that runs on pure rays, that you never have to plug in.  (Where have I
> heard
> that before?)
>
> And maybe that's OK.  Knowledge beats belief, but if everybody listened to
> the experts who say it can't be done, nothing would ever change.  If
> Martin
> Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning had listened to all the "experts" who said
> that
> road EVs weren't practical, they never would have started Tesla.  We'd
> probably still have EVs by now, but probably not as many, and probably not
> as capable, and probably not legally recognized as future transport in the
> EU.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  Blockchain is an elaborate workaround for a very specific problem:
>  verifying irreversible transfers of value without a centralized
>  authority. In other words, it's a computationally burdensome way to
>  hate the government.
>
>  -- Sarah Jeong
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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>

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: NC wants to eliminate free EV charging

[Michael Ross via EV]

I am speculating, but I do live in central NC and have 5.6KW on my roof
since 2013. Duke Power wants to get rid of all the promotional stuff for
solar power here. I have been on net metering 1:1 getting paid the same as
I pay. They are trying to end that. Some years ago they proposed paying us
$0.02/KWH when we pay $0.11/KWH. That fell through. But Duke carries a lot
of clout in the wholly, and egregiously conservative legislature here. They
probably see an opportunity and are pushing it once again.

Free EV charging is just another energy angle that Duke has little control
over and that is their MO: they like solar just fine as long as it is under
their thumb, NC makes the second greatest amount of solar power after CA
(could be dated info), but most of it is utility scale very little that is
residential. Duke controls that and that is how they like it.

On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 4:47 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> That's pretty regressive. Do you suspect there is some strong lobbying
> from the petroleum industry ? :) Fortunately, that's an extreme case
> among the states.
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "EV List Lackey via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "EV List Lackey" 
> Sent: 09-Jul-22 10:25:51
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: NC wants to eliminate free EV charging
>
> >You couldn't make something like this up; nobody would believe it.  On
> >second thought, make that "nobody in a sane state or nation would believe
> >it."
> >
> >PS - North Carolina already charges EV owners an extra $130 per year for
> the
> >privilege of helping clean up NC's air.
> >
> >>  North Carolina Lawmaker Want to Scrap Free EV Charging Stations
> >>
> >>  The 'Equitable Free Vehicle Fuel Stations' bill allocates up to
> >>  $50,000 to remove charging stations.
> >
> >>  The bill ... includes a number of provisions intended to discourage
> >>  the installation of free electric vehicle (EV) charging stations ...
> >>  [it includes] up to $50,000 for "the purpose of removing any electric
> >>  vehicle charging stations that do not comply with the provisions of
> >>  this act." ... it requires both public and private locations where EV
> >>  charging is offered to provide "gasoline or diesel fuel for motor
> >>  vehicles through a pump to the public at no charge," so other drivers
> >>  can make use of those stations as well.
> >
> >Full story:
> >
> >https://www.pcmag.com/news/nc-reps-want-to-scrap-ev-charging-stations
> >
> >David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
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Re: [EVDL] Why people dislike Tesla

[Michael Ross via EV]

I spent 7 years designing sensors and actuators for the aftermarket
business of Standard Motor Products. A successful manufacturing and
reselling auto part supplier since the 1920's. Still going strong,
aggregating the demand for lower volume parts to supply your local auto
parts store. There is still a need for "Right to Repair." As long as stuff
wears out there will be spares. What they cost will be all about the
market. What is the demand? And what price will it bear? If there are
millions of cars there will be hundreds of thousands of spare parts.

On Sun, May 29, 2022 at 4:23 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 29 May 2022 at 11:54, Michael A. Radtke via EV wrote:
>
> > I use the [Imiev] nearly every day and depend on it.  I also realize that
> > it is approaching end of life and there is nothing on the market that,
> > in my opinion, does the job that I need it to do.
>
> Not to break in on a semi-private conversation here, but I wonder what end-
> of-life looks like for an EV.
>
> For as long as I've been following EVs (about 55 years), lower mechanical
> complexity => longer potential mechanical life has always been a big check
> in the plus column.
>
> Stuff wears out, yea verily even electronics.  "Longer life" thus assumes
> that spare parts remain available and affordable, and that the battery is
> rebuildable or replaceable. Spares are always a fight as a car ages.
> Fortunately consumer law is more or less on our side on that scrap.
>
> But at least in the US it's become tougher to improve consumer law.  If
> we're stuck with the ICEV-oriented laws on EV spare parts availablity,
> then
> EV end of life might look pretty much like ICEV end of life.
>
> And then there's the body, again from the perspective of the snowy, salty
> northern US.  The (galvanized?) steel now used in cars lasts longer than
> the
> old dip-primed (or not) stuff of 50-60 years ago.  But steel never really
> stops longing to return to its lower energy steady state of iron oxide.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  We can't solve problems by using the same kind
>  of thinking we used when we created them.
>
> -- Alan Kay
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
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>


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Ukraine war and nickel

[Michael Ross via EV]

I suppose this explains a lot about why Tesla (and Straubel) are leaning
hard towards LiFePO. Nickel and manganese, etc., are a problem? Don't use
them.

On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 10:45 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Agreed. The battery is heavy enough itself and, coupled with an
> oversized vehicle, the kWh demands are crazy. My biggest concern is the
> environmental consequences of mining all the raw materials. I hope the
> technology evolves to use easy to obtain materials.
>
> Speaking of e-trikes, here's one to watch
> https://avvenire.ca/products/spiritus/
> They have only one prototype so far but they do have production
> experience...
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Gary Krysztopik via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Gary Krysztopik" 
> Sent: 12-Mar-22 16:48:03
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Ukraine war and nickel
>
> >Maybe we should try to get more efficient with our vehicles, whether gas
> or
> >electric.  The new truck sizes are obscene.  The eHummers are just a side
> >show, but they are 9,000 lbs with 200 kWh batteries.  An ebike uses .5 kWh
> >batteries.  We can build 400 ebikes or one eHummer.  Both to move a person
> >around.
> >
> >But not everybody can or wants to ride an ebike.  So we can make enclosed
> >ebike-type-vehicles that get by with 5-10 kWh batteries.  And they can
> >charge from a 120 VAC outlet.  That's orders of magnitude savings on
> >resources, operation, and infrastructure.
> >
> >But they aren't safe with fast/heavy vehicles.  So we expand protected and
> >connected bike paths to allow these new vehicles along local commuting
> >routes.  We have solutions in hand, but they don't include an eHummer in
> >every driveway.  And with increased urgency every day, we really need to
> be
> >smart about Building Back Better.  If we leave it to Big Auto, they have a
> >well-proven track record of being increasingly wasteful with our world's
> >resources.
> >
> >Gary Krysztopik
> >
> >On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 3:37 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
> >wrote:
> >
> >>  "The rollout of solar panels and wind turbines is unlikely to be
> hampered
> >>  by
> >>  supply problems caused by the war in Ukraine, but the production of
> >>  electric
> >>  cars could take a hit ..."
> >>
> >>
> https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/solar-and-wind-rollout-doesnt-depend-
> >>  russian-exports-e-cars-do-german-industry
> >>  <
> https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/solar-and-wind-rollout-doesnt-depend-russian-exports-e-cars-do-german-industry
> >
> >>
> >>  or https://v.gd/wQ0EYL
> >>
> >>  Maybe this will boost LFP's fortunes.  Or maybe it will lead to
> developing
> >>  more politically stable nickel sources.  Or maybe certain automakers
> will
> >>  just use it as an excuse to carry on with ICEVs - which burn Russian
> oil.
> >>
> >>  David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >>
> >>  To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> >>  offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >>
> >>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >>   In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks
> >>   you take.
> >>
> >>  -- Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)
> >>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >>
> >>  ___
> >>  Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
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Re: [EVDL] X-Bus

[Michael Ross via EV]

Very interesting.
For what countries is it to be homologated?

On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 2:27 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> The electric XBUS is the cutest thing youll see today
> https://electricbrands.de/en/myxbus/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Self Driving Mode, was Tesla's Sneaky Rolling

[Michael Ross via EV]

Human vision has to assemble an image mostly from memory. The
contemporaneous data is overwritten on the remembered image to update and
define motion for the cortex. The optic nerve only sends changes in an
image. It is a differentiator not a frame writer. This is why we can see a
rope as a snake and other reflexive mistakes.

It makes sense to me that a machine vision system would apply similar
logistics and tactics. Why send millions of pixels that have not changed
significantly?

On Sun, Feb 6, 2022 at 5:17 PM mark hanson via EV  wrote:

> Hi Peri etc,
>
>
>
> I don't recall a warning when it glitched and dropped out.  It has made a
> bing sound (from the speakers) when it gets confused with large tractor
> trailers and drops out.  It's odd that it has trouble identifying large
> tractor trailers (image jumps around a lot frequently) but small cars
> appear
> stable in the screen.  I just bop the right stick twice again and it
> resumes, no biggie on a straight highway.  It doesn't happen that often,
> only a couple times going to Florida and once up to Pennsylvania.  We're
> heading down to the Keys Febuary 11th , so I'll make a note of the
> glitches/frequency.
>
>
>
> One thing that's more annoying though, sometimes it gets confused with a
> blowing leaf or clump of snow etc and flashes red with a loud noise out of
> the loud speakers (my wife hates that "feature"), makes you jump when
> there's nothing there.  Them says "taking control of steering wheel" and
> feel a little force this way or that which I just ignore/overpower.
>
>
>
> I wish I could turn off all this "fluffy" stuff.  Guess I'm used to simple
> conversions and my Chevy Bolt & Leaf.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2022 21:09:18 +
>
> From: "Peri Hartman" 
>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Self Driving Mode, was Tesla's Sneaky Rolling
>
>   Stops
>
> Message-ID: 
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
>
>
> Does autopilot give any sort of warning when it drops out ? It seems that
> it
> should do something that grabs you attention instantly, e.g.
>
> vibrate the steering wheel or even a mild shock.
>
>
>
> Peri
>
>
>
>
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Mark E. Hanson
>
> 184 Vista Lane
>
> Fincastle, VA 24090
>
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
>
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
>
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
>
> UL Certified PV Installer
>
> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
>
> REEVA Demo:   http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
>
>
> <
> https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd89
> 75b8d/signature
> >
> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla’s Sneaky Rolling Stops

[Michael Ross via EV]

 Sorry Bill, You made my case for me.

"* If you think about it, how would _anyone_ be able to, *since
the device that could record the incident data was off-line at the time
it happened and this was the root cause of the incident?"

My point exactly.

"If he says it happened, I completely believe it
happened."

* I just want real numbers, not conjecture*. Not saying the comments are wrong,
just that it sounds like BS. And it does.
The plural of anecdote is not data.

I would not quote what Mark wrote without seeing what it is based on. I am
not trying to be an a$$. Not saying anyone else is an a$$.

Returning to the original topic.
The problem with self driving is when the computer gets a glitch, it drops
out and the vehicle goes straight, usually into a tree on a curvy road
(happened to my friend last year and previous year to his wife in a
Tesla3)."

My understanding is that the driver can always override, so this curvy road
business could have been a matter of driver not on board to do their job.

We need to balance this out with the positive notes. Was the unconscious
guy whose car delivered him to the ER he was trying to reach after a heart
attack - was that not a mitigation of some sort?

If the empirical evidence was to show that a tenth of the accidents and
fatalities are experienced with autonomous vehicles, I would like that very
much.
I don't know where those numbers come from either. So I like them equally
well - not at all.


On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 6:51 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> Michael -
>
>  How, exactly, would Mark be able to provide "factual data" on this
> incident?  If you think about it, how would _anyone_ be able to, since
> the device that could record the incident data was off-line at the time
> it happened and this was the root cause of the incident? Mark speculated
> that it was quite possible that other similar "glitches" have caused
> other similar unrecorded incidents.
>
>  I have known Mark for more than 20 years and have found him utterly
> truthful and reliable. If he says it happened, I completely believe it
> happened.
>
>  Also, I can envision how this could easily happen and how it would
> completely escape the notice of Tesla. On commercial airplanes, they
> have two (2) separate flight computers, using two different brand CPUs,
> using two completely "firewalled" separate teams of code developers for
> their flight computers. The two systems continuously monitor each other
> for faults and warn the pilots when they see any divergence in flight
> control between the computers. There are two _other_ separate systems
> recording flight data as well. They do this because peoples lives depend
> on these systems working perfectly and continuously. There is no similar
> multiple redundancy in Tesla. _YOU_ are the redundancy that they are
> depending on to take over if there is a computer glitch.
>
>  "The world is an imperfect place. Screws fall out." (Quote from
> "The Breakfast Club.")
>
>  Bill D.
>
> On 2/5/2022 11:08 AM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> > Mark, Can you show me where this anecdotal information might be gathered
> as
> > factual data?  I have become very wary of information that is not
> > attributed to some source that I can trust. No offence intended.
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 4:38 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Tesla should just drop the whole self driving thing and just focus on a
> >> great electric car.  My Tesla Y was the only EV I could find with towing
> >> capacity for my H20 ski boat and an excellent nationwide charging
> network.
> >> The problem with self driving is when the computer gets a glitch, it
> drops
> >> out and the vehicle goes straight, usually into a tree on a curvy road
> >> (happened to my friend last year and previous year to his wife in a
> >> Tesla3). Of course when the computer drops out it doesn’t record the
> crash
> >> as a self driving error.  How convenient for Tesla.  The actual crash
> rate
> >> is much higher than recorded.
> >> Best regards
> >> Mark
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> ___
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> >>
> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla’s Sneaky Rolling Stops

[Michael Ross via EV]

Mark, Can you show me where this anecdotal information might be gathered as
factual data?  I have become very wary of information that is not
attributed to some source that I can trust. No offence intended.

On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 4:38 PM Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:

> Tesla should just drop the whole self driving thing and just focus on a
> great electric car.  My Tesla Y was the only EV I could find with towing
> capacity for my H20 ski boat and an excellent nationwide charging network.
> The problem with self driving is when the computer gets a glitch, it drops
> out and the vehicle goes straight, usually into a tree on a curvy road
> (happened to my friend last year and previous year to his wife in a
> Tesla3). Of course when the computer drops out it doesn’t record the crash
> as a self driving error.  How convenient for Tesla.  The actual crash rate
> is much higher than recorded.
> Best regards
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] tesla's sneaky rolling stops

[Michael Ross via EV]

It is obvious  if you give any thought that laws do not constrain a car to
the safest paths. For example, woud you expect a driver or an automobile *not
*to cross a double yellow line to avoid something in the road or an
incorrectly driven oncoming vehicle?

I don't see why rolling stops are a problem if executed by an attentive,
well trained, controller, with fast reflexes.
I also think traffic engineers are underzealous in their application of
yield signs.

Humans are particularly poor decision makers when behind the wheel. Or,
there would be no accidents or fatalities.

I will wait and see if an autonomous car can't be made to exceed the
decision making ability of humans. Maybe not all of them, but enough to
make travel on roads safer. To hell with what the law says when there are
some out of the box situations.

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 5:30 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 3 Feb 2022 at 7:27, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
>
> > You didn't answer the question, you just re-iterated that they shouldn't
> be
> > allowed to be done by an advanced AI system with far better observation
> > capabilities than a human.
> >
> > Why shouldn't an AI be allowed to do them?
>
> Completely aside from the question of whether AI will ever actually be
> "intelligent":
>
> 1. I'm not an expert, but from what I've read, I don't agree that Tesla's
> autopilot has "far better observation capabilities than a human."  Maybe
> it
> could have, but Musk kneecapped it by ordering his engineers to use only
> visual sensors (and I think ultrasound).  Musk reportedly thinks that
> humans
> use only vision in driving, so that's enough for a car.  Really?  Besides,
> maybe Musk uses only his vision, but most of us use all of our senses in
> driving. At least 4 of them; 5 if you have a drink in the cupholder. :-)
>
> 2. Tesla is touting their new supercomputer for autopilot learning. How
> much
> do the cars depend on it for moment-to-moment decisions?  I haven't read
> all
> the articles on it, but none so far has even asked that question.  Mobile
> phone data isn't a "mission-critical" service with guaranteed speed and
> uptime. What happens when the car can't talk to the server for minutes,
> hours, days, or weeks at a stretch?
>
> 3. As far as I know, Tesla is the only automaker encouraging their cars'
> drivers to turn driving over to the car entirely.  Officially, they say
> "don't rely on it," but that's effectively negated by what Musk says
> unofficially and by the names he gives the system.  "It's full self
> driving,
> but don't let the car drive itself, OK?"  Wink wink, nudge nudge.
>
> 4. I don't know of any other automaker expecting its customers to
> beta-test
> safety-critical self driving software - and with the chutzpah to make them
> pay a $10k surcharge for the privilege.
>
> 5. Who, in a nation full of angry, over-entitled, self-centered jerks,
> thought it was a good idea to add an "aggressive" mode to Teslas?
>
> 6. Finally, are people on this list seriously arguing that an automatic
> system should be deliberately programmed to *actively* violate traffic
> law?
> Or even to give the driver that choice?
>
> -
>
> I don't know how many of y'all realize this, but outside of the EV
> community, informed and intelligent people make grim jokes about Tesla's
> autopilot failures.
>
> Between those failures and their legal responsibility failures, mark my
> words, Tesla is heading for a legal and fiscal cliff.  They'd better
> really
> watch their tails as they push into Europe.  The regulatory climate there
> is
> a lot less laissez-faire, and the culture less every-man-for-himself, than
> in the US.
>
> I know a lot of you don't agree, but I still think that Musk is past his
> use-
> by date at Tesla.  The board should get him off Twitter, kick him upstairs
> to a well-paid emeritus advisory role, and turn the CEO job over to
> someone
> with a little human conscience, prudence, and responsibility.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  Many [Americans] are superstitious ... 42% believe in ghosts, 65%
>  believe in karma ... and 22% contend that climate change is a hoax
>  and that no action need be taken to combat it, which means that
>  even more Americans may come to believe in karma in the future.
>
>   -- Colette Brooks
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
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(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 

Re: [EVDL] Study compares electric vehicle charge costs vs. gas — and results were misleading Yahoo

[Michael Ross via EV]

That is prejudicial nonsense.

On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 8:40 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 24 Oct 2021 at 22:27, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>
> > Mr. Anderson and his company have 20 years-experience of consulting
> > with the auto industry and have been providing accurate data over that
> > time to many publications.
>
> With very few exceptions, success as a consultant hinges on determining
> what
> answer your client wants to hear, and delivering that answer.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  The business model of the internet is surveillance.
>
> -- Bruce Schneier
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Launches Entry Model 3 with Newer LFP Battery Tech in the U.S. - TeslaNorth.com

[Michael Ross via EV]

This is far more about stationary storage where range is not a concern and
temperature management is far easier to maintain. LFP have always been a
useful option in stationary applications.

I suspect good work has been done to improve the additives in electrolyte
solutions.

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 6:29 PM Michael Ross 
wrote:

> No, they will be a lot better. The ones we got on the open market were
> crappy. Tesla can't afford crappy batteries that can't
> take even moderately high temperatures. They can't have such a low energy
> density and low power density. If they are doing LFP it is because they
> made significant im[rovements. No cobalt is a biggy. They have to have a
> fast charge rate. Large formats cannot be cooled well.
>
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 6:14 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks
>> Looks like Elon Musk is trying to spin LiFePo4 batteries that we used in
>> our conversions as the latest technology.  I wonder if they’re large format
>> cells too :-).
>>
>> https://teslanorth.com/2021/08/26/tesla-launches-entry-model-3-with-newer-lfp-battery-tech-in-the-u-s/
>> Best regards
>> Mark in Roanoke Va
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
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>
>
> --
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Launches Entry Model 3 with Newer LFP Battery Tech in the U.S. - TeslaNorth.com

[Michael Ross via EV]

No, they will be a lot better. The ones we got on the open market were
crappy. Tesla can't afford crappy batteries that can't
take even moderately high temperatures. They can't have such a low energy
density and low power density. If they are doing LFP it is because they
made significant im[rovements. No cobalt is a biggy. They have to have a
fast charge rate. Large formats cannot be cooled well.

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 6:14 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:

> Hi folks
> Looks like Elon Musk is trying to spin LiFePo4 batteries that we used in
> our conversions as the latest technology.  I wonder if they’re large format
> cells too :-).
>
> https://teslanorth.com/2021/08/26/tesla-launches-entry-model-3-with-newer-lfp-battery-tech-in-the-u-s/
> Best regards
> Mark in Roanoke Va
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

In today's local paper is an article about FlexGen in Durham NC, they're
raised $150M. They build "software that helps grids manage energy storage."

Doesn't sound exactly like market and also not hardware management
software. " FlexGen's energy storage solutions bridge the gap of
reliability for the grid, and help accelerate the adoption of renewables by
shifting  renewable power to times when it is needed the most."

Source is the Raleigh News and Observer. Thursday 9.02.21 page 6A. I get
this in paper form, but there is an online version.

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 8:30 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> From what I've read, California now has so many PV installations that
> they're actually deliberately cutting output - there's more supply than
> demand.  Springtime is a particular problem because there's ample
> sunshine,
> but the weather is mild, so there's little need for heating or aircon.
>
> Long-term storage would seem to be the real answer, I guess (I"m not an
> expert), and maybe the legislature needs to revisit their RE goals.
>
> But for the immediate situation, more EVs => more demand => more efficient
> use of installed PV, no?
>
> Since charging tends to be at night, short-term storage would be a factor,
> I
> suppose.  Seems easier to implement than long-term storage, but again,
> what
> do I know?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  If at first you don't succeed, skydiving probably isn't for you.
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

Batteries on a large scale fall behind H2 storage if you have big enough
tanks, and if you correctly factor in the costs of batteries and tanks.
Where the lines cross is an open question.

I live 10 miles from a big gas depot in Selma NC. They hold lot and are
very simple, big inverted buckets that rise and fall with the gas. You can
electrolyze H2 into a tank and you get compression for free. Battery
manufacturing, care and feeding is non-trivial. H2 is worth a look for grid
size storage.

Pump storage is similar in efficiency, but hell on the environment,
destroying important watersheds, drowning arable land and habitat. Big dams
cost a lot. Turbines. Makes a tank of gas attractive.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 11:58 AM Willie via EV  wrote:

> Snip
>
> Short term battery storage can be sited near production as well as
> anywhere else.
>
> If you can sell the energy within a few hours and if battery cost
> allows, battery storage looks good to me.
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

"that the grid can't handle" is just another example of market distortion.
It is a choice of the market, not to say "the grid can't handle so much
generation of non-RE."

There is a lag in response of the market when you build a gas plant or a
nuke that can't be turned down when the cost leans toward RE. A decades
long distortion.

Again the consumer pays. Because this lost flexibility is cooked in The
gain of economy of scale a maybe archaic large generation facility has a
hidden cost of preventing cleaner less costly, more flexible, but weirdly
time constrained RE generation.

I think H2 might be useful as a storage medium. Lots of inefficiency, but
on a large scale it has merit. Better than turning down or shutting off a
clean cheap generation means.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 10:22 AM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of PV
> energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy would
> be sold, not shut down.
>
> The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create
> hydrogen storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an
> excellent use for electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel
> cells. Note, for this application, the hydrogen does not need to be
> compressed.
>
> Peri


>
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

There is going to ba a point above which recycling batteries  into new ones
has a better payback than using them for storage. And, above which H2 and
other less material intensive tech will be better storage. Tech will advance

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 2:43 PM Ed Blackmond via EV 
wrote:

>
>
> > On Sep 1, 2021, at 9:53 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> >
> > 
> >> On 9/1/21 10:20 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> >> It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of PV
> energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy would be
> sold, not shut down.
> >>
> >> The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create
> hydrogen storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an excellent
> use for electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel cells. Note, for
> this application, the hydrogen does not need to be compressed.
> >
> >
> > Speaking without great familiarity with storage costs, I think short
> term battery storage is most likely to solve the problem. Battery stored
> energy can get to the grid for only about a 20% loss while hydrogen, as I
> understand, will be FAR less efficient.
> >
> > Typically, over production of either wind or PV can be managed with
> storage of well under 24 hours.  We can look forward to continued battery
> cost reductions, especially from Tesla.
> >
> > For longer term storage, hydrogen might find a niche.
> >
> There will soon be more battery storage than we know what to do with. All
> these electric vehicles with 200+ mile range will need to replace their
> batteries when the range drops below an acceptable level.
>
> These batteries will still be quite useful for grid storage/backup. It
> doesn’t really matter how much ground space a battery requires when it is
> sitting under a solar array.
>
> When the batteries are depleted enough to no longer be useful for this
> application, they are going to be in centralized locations simplifying the
> recycling process and they can become new batteries for cars, starting the
> cycle all over again.
>
> Ed
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

If you take a longer view, SoCal has an excess of non-RE power that needs
to be shipped pretty far away.

If climate change remediation is going to really happen we need to fill the
status quo. The consumers will pay one way or another, with increasingly
poor climate outcomes, and all the cost that will bring, or with money to
apply more RE.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 11:53 AM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Michael, I don't follow you. If, for example, southern cali has excess
> PV generation, it will need to ship that energy somewhere pretty far
> away, say oregon or washington. That would require a pretty substantial
> transmission line. I don't think the existing lines are sufficient. The
> market is there but the infrastructure is not, so they shut down the
> PVs.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Michael Ross" 
> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" 
> Sent: 01-Sep-21 08:40:44
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant
> to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the
>
> >"that the grid can't handle" is just another example of market
> >distortion. It is a choice of the market, not to say "the grid can't
> >handle so much generation of non-RE."
> >
> >There is a lag in response of the market when you build a gas plant or
> >a nuke that can't be turned down when the cost leans toward RE. A
> >decades long distortion.
> >
> >Again the consumer pays. Because this lost flexibility is cooked in The
> >gain of economy of scale a maybe archaic large generation facility has
> >a hidden cost of preventing cleaner less costly, more flexible, but
> >weirdly time constrained RE generation.
> >
> >I think H2 might be useful as a storage medium. Lots of inefficiency,
> >but on a large scale it has merit. Better than turning down or shutting
> >off a clean cheap generation means.
> >
> >On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 10:22 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
> >wrote:
> >>It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of
> >>PV
> >>energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy
> >>would
> >>be sold, not shut down.
> >>
> >>The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create
> >>hydrogen storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an
> >>excellent use for electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel
> >>cells. Note, for this application, the hydrogen does not need to be
> >>compressed.
> >>
> >>Peri
> >>
> >>
> >>___
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

RE oversupply implies discounting RE
power. Whatever distortions that are applied will have to be paid for, by
customers probably, because stockholders are rarely penalized.

It is also possible that RE power is actually less costly, then the penalty
gets paid by the customers of the non-RE generators/aggregaters.

Somebody pays that is certain. Plenty of RE is long term less costly to
produce than, nukes and fossils. A well built and operated solar facility
can be very competitive. But again there are often subsidies baked in that
have enduring but hard to see effects.

I'm not knowledgeable about wind. Presumably they can compete as well, or
the difference is being made up in tax breaks, credits etc.

My main point is someone does pay, even if a facility is run at less than
optimal output. It is often hidden.


On Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 10:50 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 31 Aug 2021 at 21:55, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > My first guess is CA has distorted the market with subsidies, etc. It is
> > likely a pendulum swing, the asking price will have to come down. Supply
> > greater than demand.  Some one is going to get some electrons below cost.
>
> Again I'm speaking out of relative ignorance, not having exhaustively
> researched the California energy situation.  However one would think that
> the utilities aren't apt to buy more RE than they're required to,
> especially
> if it costs more than brown energy.
>
> So one solution to RE oversupply would be for the California legislature
> to
> generate demand by raising the required percentage of RE in the grid, no?
>
> And, again, using that excess RE to charge EVs should be a winner all
> round.
>
> However, I'm throwing darts in the dark here, so it'd be great to hear
> from
> someone more familiar with the situation.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  What has allowed so many psychopathic personalities to rise
>  so high in corporations, and now in government, is that they
>  are so decisive. Unlike normal people, they are never filled
>  with doubts, for the simple reason that they cannot care what
>  happens next.
>
>   -- Kurt Vonnegut
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

We have a nation wide grid and a market for power. Storage is less of a
problem than cost. CA may not be selling at a price people are buying. It's
also hard to raise level of pump storage when the water gets used for ag.

My first guess is CA has distorted the market with subsidies, etc. It is
likely a pendulum swing, the asking price will have to come down. Supply
greater than demand.  Some one is going to get some electrons below cost.



On Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 8:30 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> From what I've read, California now has so many PV installations that
> they're actually deliberately cutting output - there's more supply than
> demand.  Springtime is a particular problem because there's ample
> sunshine,
> but the weather is mild, so there's little need for heating or aircon.
>
> Long-term storage would seem to be the real answer, I guess (I"m not an
> expert), and maybe the legislature needs to revisit their RE goals.
>
> But for the immediate situation, more EVs => more demand => more efficient
> use of installed PV, no?
>
> Since charging tends to be at night, short-term storage would be a factor,
> I
> suppose.  Seems easier to implement than long-term storage, but again,
> what
> do I know?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  If at first you don't succeed, skydiving probably isn't for you.
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Michael Ross via EV]

The batteries catching fire is already a lower probability fault and it
will improve. Far lower than fires with gasoline.

I think these two safety issues, battery fires and H tanks blowing up are
non-problems that have effective tech fixes.Transporting energy to
individual cars is not much to worry about with electric power convenient
means exist. Production and "transport" can be in your own yard. But
transporting H is not even begun.  Lossy electrolysis could be done at home
from PV, but that is economically a non-starter with pressurized storage.
If a dense AND low pressure means is developed that is nice. But it sounds
like a pipe dream. Hydrogen on a film? Intuition tells me that's not going
to be nearly dense enough. Aren't batteries up near 300Wh per kg now (I
just saw a new product claim of 350)? Musk has said aircraft can work at
400Wh/kg, economically.

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 10:23 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> MUCH better chance of a battery catching fire than a hydrogen tank
> exploding. In fact, the latter is unlikely to happen. The former, it
> happens all the time.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Aug 15, 2021, at 1:03 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > But then there is still the 30% loss in inefficiency in all the heat
> loss in
> > compressing the hydrogen into tanks. (and hoping it wont explode).
> > Bob
> >
> >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:39 PM Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> From the WIKI:
> >> "Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current
> best
> >> processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which
> have
> >> an effective electrical efficiency of 70–80%"
> >> I actually thought 70% was as good as it gets, but  they think in
> another
> >> 10 years it might be in the upper 90%'s.
> >>
> >> I recall that the combustion of hydrogen was also pretty lossy. SO a
> lot of
> >> inefficiency coming and going with H. I will try to find where I got
> that
> >> idea and write back. The discussion was to the effect that combining O2
> and
> >> H2 could never be better than some ceiling %.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:20 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Gee, a lot of incorrect stuff to reply to.
> >>>
> >>> Not incorrect, but you think that PSI is less confusing to use than
> bar?
> >>> Then it’s 10,000 PSI. As far as your description of what it is -
> frankly, I
> >>> hadn’t a clue what you were talking about. Your numbers seem to be
> >>> confusing a point.
> >>>
> >>> Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I’m not sure what you are talking
> about.
> >>> No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply that
> they
> >>> are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get
> managed
> >>> better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does any
> other
> >>> energy storage mechanism.
> >>>
> >>> Fuel cell lifetime of 2,000 hours? Care to provide a source? It’s just
> not
> >>> true.
> >>>
> >>> Electrolysis not very efficient? What do *you* consider “not very
> >>> efficient”? What do you consider acceptable efficiency?
> >>>
>
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Michael Ross via EV]

I see that my previous idea was all about ICE, not fuel cells. I know
nothing about FC efficiency, Lot's a prognostication about how this will
turn out.

It seems that some production methods of hydrogen might be very efficient,
like up to 98% if you can believe it.
The fuel cell efficiency is a pick your number thing as far as I can tell
if you put in future developments.  It looks like a 4% loss from production
to power output, someday maybe. I think putting charges in a Li ion battery
and getting them out again is better than that.

I get it there are a lot of ways to look at this. I am equating the
power generated and used to make industrial hydrogen is equivalent to
making power on the grid by the mixed means of nukes, coal, oil, gas,
solar, wind etc.

I think batteries are more efficient and easier to implement, particularly
in a vehicle, than some future hydrogen fuel cell. I do think fuel cells
are better than the last time I looked into them.

I like H2 as a stored energy means for retaining grid peaks on a regional
to global scale. I still think putting fuel cells in individual vehicles is
not as good as BEV.

It is fun to think about all this, I can't begin to put all the variety of
means and use cases together to see a definitive "H2 is bad," or "H2 is
good."  I think the future will be a combination of all sorts of means. We
can't extraoplate any single energy source or means of distribution as THE
ONE. It won't work that way.

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:38 PM Michael Ross 
wrote:

> From the WIKI:
> "Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current best
> processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which have
> an effective electrical efficiency of 70–80%"
> I actually thought 70% was as good as it gets, but  they think in another
> 10 years it might be in the upper 90%'s.
>
> I recall that the combustion of hydrogen was also pretty lossy. SO a lot
> of inefficiency coming and going with H. I will try to find where I got
> that idea and write back. The discussion was to the effect that combining
> O2 and H2 could never be better than some ceiling %.
>
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:20 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Gee, a lot of incorrect stuff to reply to.
>>
>> Not incorrect, but you think that PSI is less confusing to use than bar?
>> Then it’s 10,000 PSI. As far as your description of what it is - frankly, I
>> hadn’t a clue what you were talking about. Your numbers seem to be
>> confusing a point.
>>
>> Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I’m not sure what you are talking
>> about. No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply
>> that they are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get
>> managed better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does
>> any other energy storage mechanism.
>>
>> Fuel cell lifetime of 2,000 hours? Care to provide a source? It’s just
>> not true.
>>
>> Electrolysis not very efficient? What do *you* consider “not very
>> efficient”? What do you consider acceptable efficiency?
>>
>> Hydrogen leakage through pipes? What pipes are you talking about? And the
>> basis for your assumption that it leaks because it is small?
>>
>> Tesla battery packs? Yes, very good. Million mile goal? Happy to talk
>> about goals. 100% green hydrogen within 10-15 years. Million mile goal? I
>> wish them luck. I own stock in the company.
>>
>> Recycling? Virtually none is happening now. That’s a lot of toxic waste.
>> Fuel cells - 99% recycled is what I’ve heard, far exceeding the Tesla goal,
>> today.
>>
>> What to buy? If a BEV best meets your needs - excellent! I hope you get
>> the best one for *you*, and hope that its a Tesla. But don’t make any
>> decisions based on wrong information, and on the fuel cell side, there
>> seems to be a lot of that that you are considering.
>>
>> BTW, you mentioned natural gas - if you are in California, your hydrogen
>> transportation fuel is likely *not* to be derived from fossil.
>>
>> - Mark
>>
>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>>
>> > On Aug 15, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Numbers help.  For instance, an experimental Toyota Camry with three
>> > carbon wound hydrogen tanks was filled to "700 bar" with hydrogen for
>> > a range of 300 miles.  Nobody who wants to convey pressure to the
>> > general public uses bars.  It is always PSI.  700 bar translates to 5
>> > tons per square inch in a car that weighs less than 2 tons.   One tank
>> > manufacturing defect and the Camry goes "ballistic" in some direction.
>> >
>> > If hydrogen is made from natural gas, there is always a little CO
>> > included in the Hydrogen.  That over time corrodes the Fuel Cell.  The
>> > rough rule of thumb was that the fuel cell would last "2,000 hours".
>> > At 30 mph, that's 60K miles.  YMMV  That leaves electrolysis which is
>> > very inefficient.
>> >
>> > Then there is the transport of hydrogen to refueling stations.
>> > Hydrogen 

Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Michael Ross via EV]

From the WIKI:
"Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current best
processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which have
an effective electrical efficiency of 70–80%"
I actually thought 70% was as good as it gets, but  they think in another
10 years it might be in the upper 90%'s.

I recall that the combustion of hydrogen was also pretty lossy. SO a lot of
inefficiency coming and going with H. I will try to find where I got that
idea and write back. The discussion was to the effect that combining O2 and
H2 could never be better than some ceiling %.

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:20 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Gee, a lot of incorrect stuff to reply to.
>
> Not incorrect, but you think that PSI is less confusing to use than bar?
> Then it’s 10,000 PSI. As far as your description of what it is - frankly, I
> hadn’t a clue what you were talking about. Your numbers seem to be
> confusing a point.
>
> Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I’m not sure what you are talking about.
> No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply that they
> are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get managed
> better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does any other
> energy storage mechanism.
>
> Fuel cell lifetime of 2,000 hours? Care to provide a source? It’s just not
> true.
>
> Electrolysis not very efficient? What do *you* consider “not very
> efficient”? What do you consider acceptable efficiency?
>
> Hydrogen leakage through pipes? What pipes are you talking about? And the
> basis for your assumption that it leaks because it is small?
>
> Tesla battery packs? Yes, very good. Million mile goal? Happy to talk
> about goals. 100% green hydrogen within 10-15 years. Million mile goal? I
> wish them luck. I own stock in the company.
>
> Recycling? Virtually none is happening now. That’s a lot of toxic waste.
> Fuel cells - 99% recycled is what I’ve heard, far exceeding the Tesla goal,
> today.
>
> What to buy? If a BEV best meets your needs - excellent! I hope you get
> the best one for *you*, and hope that its a Tesla. But don’t make any
> decisions based on wrong information, and on the fuel cell side, there
> seems to be a lot of that that you are considering.
>
> BTW, you mentioned natural gas - if you are in California, your hydrogen
> transportation fuel is likely *not* to be derived from fossil.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Aug 15, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > Numbers help.  For instance, an experimental Toyota Camry with three
> > carbon wound hydrogen tanks was filled to "700 bar" with hydrogen for
> > a range of 300 miles.  Nobody who wants to convey pressure to the
> > general public uses bars.  It is always PSI.  700 bar translates to 5
> > tons per square inch in a car that weighs less than 2 tons.   One tank
> > manufacturing defect and the Camry goes "ballistic" in some direction.
> >
> > If hydrogen is made from natural gas, there is always a little CO
> > included in the Hydrogen.  That over time corrodes the Fuel Cell.  The
> > rough rule of thumb was that the fuel cell would last "2,000 hours".
> > At 30 mph, that's 60K miles.  YMMV  That leaves electrolysis which is
> > very inefficient.
> >
> > Then there is the transport of hydrogen to refueling stations.
> > Hydrogen seeps through pipes because it is such a small atom.  If it
> > didn't, then you have a whole lot of new infrastructure to build.
> > Tanker trucks are another story.  They are capacity limited.
> >
> > I keep looking for genuine breakthroughs and I am not finding them.
> > Most of what I read is hype.
> >
> > Meanwhile, a Tesla pack lasts from  300,000 to 500,000 miles with
> > Musk's goal of 1 million miles.  A million miles is 20K miles per year
> > for 50 years.  Basically, a lifetime of driving on one pack.
> >
> > Tesla has announced a recycling plan where they will be recycling 92
> > to 97% of a pack.
> >
> > There are too many basic issues with hydrogen fuel cells that have yet
> > to be resolved in order to compete with a BEV.
> >
> > I'm considering purchasing another EV and a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle
> > is not on that list of choices for a lot of fundamental reasons.  I
> > have not seen anything in your arguments to dissuade me from a BEV or
> > point me to a viable HFCEV vehicle.
> >
> >
> >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 1:56 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> I’m not sure what you want numbers on, but a point can certainly be
> made without them, and frequently, numbers can get in the way.
> >>
> >> - Mark
> >>
> >> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> >>
>  On Aug 14, 2021, at 8:47 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Mark, if you wish to present a point, please at least provide numbers
> in your post and a more specific reference. We all have other things to do,
> beside repeat research you've already done.
> >>> Peri
> >>>
> >>> << 

Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Michael Ross via EV]

Some of you know this, and the info is not current, but is good for LiFePO.
Anyhow, just to be complete in the discussion:

When a cell is discharged, the lithium ions are on the anode and the
cathode is depleted of ions. This is a pretty benign state chemically. But
as the cathode loads up Li ions from charging the anode becomes very
reactive. So reactive that it starts to tear up the electrolyte. Heat just
makes it worse. With advancements in additives to help the electrolyte stay
healthy Li cells became steadily more durable.

Older CALB and other brands cells are liable to be deficient after many
years. Buyer beware.
Maya WoulfeiFEPO and circa 2015

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 12:20 AM Michael Ross 
wrote:

> For LiFePO, a parasitic load might be protective. It's that full charge
> that is destructive.
>
> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 11:40 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>> On 24 Jul 2021 at 21:04, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>>
>> > The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it
>> sit
>> > around, especially in a hot location.
>>
>> Isn't that the case for lithium batteries of any chemistry?  I'm not a
>> lithium expert by any means; I'm just asking.
>>
>> It occurs to me that some of Chris's parasitic loads could be coming from
>> "inside the house," so to speak.  That is, they might be from the BMS.
>>
>> I have 24v and 36v 10ah LiFePO4 batteries with a BMS with logic that's
>> powered by a 12v tap (not the optimum design), and the 4 cells that power
>> the BMS always take longer than the others to reach full charge.  For
>> long
>> term storage I have read a suggestion to disconnect the BMS if possible -
>> but don't forget to reconnect it when taking the battery out of storage.
>>
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>>
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>  First they came for the journalists.  We don't know what
>>  happened after that.
>>
>>   -- Unknown
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
>> ___
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>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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>>
>
>
> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
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>
>
>
>

-- 
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Michael Ross via EV]

For LiFePO, a parasitic load might be protective. It's that full charge
that is destructive.

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 11:40 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 24 Jul 2021 at 21:04, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it sit
> > around, especially in a hot location.
>
> Isn't that the case for lithium batteries of any chemistry?  I'm not a
> lithium expert by any means; I'm just asking.
>
> It occurs to me that some of Chris's parasitic loads could be coming from
> "inside the house," so to speak.  That is, they might be from the BMS.
>
> I have 24v and 36v 10ah LiFePO4 batteries with a BMS with logic that's
> powered by a 12v tap (not the optimum design), and the 4 cells that power
> the BMS always take longer than the others to reach full charge.  For long
> term storage I have read a suggestion to disconnect the BMS if possible -
> but don't forget to reconnect it when taking the battery out of storage.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  First they came for the journalists.  We don't know what
>  happened after that.
>
>   -- Unknown
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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>


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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Michael Ross via EV]

My personal experience is with the LiFePOcells, but the issue is there for
all/most? It's a shame because they are the most affordable (well maybe, I
haven't bought any since 2015).

In particular, the temperature at which trouble starts is significantly
lower for LiFePO.

I think if you go right out and use a full charge you have no large issues.
It's probably best never to float them like people do with PbSO cells. When
fully charged any excess charging just heats the cells up. I had a pack for
my trike, about %500 worth. I would ride to work ~25 miles in a little more
than an hour. That was about all it was good for with new cells. I could
average about 23mph. I would park it at an outlet on the south wall of a
building and set up the charge. Not a very sophisticated charger. It would
charge fully and I would let it sit and soak. After a couple months of this
I really started having low capacity. Not a very economical situation. I
became aware of the work at the Jeff Dahn lab at Dalhousie and got a much
better understanding what I was doing wrong. Too late though for that pack.

I think stopping short of 100%SOC is a good idea even if you are going to
ride off immediately. In terms of how to measure and manage the charging,
the voltage changes very little as SOC rises. How to get it right?  Its a
conundrum.

Jack Ricard put some effort into watching cells sit on the shelf and they
do slowly lose SOC. He knew how to measure SOC accurately by drawing them
down. He also saw a small but significant and permanent loss from full
capacity, year after year, just sitting them in storage. I am not clear on
what exactly causes that loss. LiFePO could charge back up pretty good if
you didn't do what I did.

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 11:40 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 24 Jul 2021 at 21:04, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it sit
> > around, especially in a hot location.
>
> Isn't that the case for lithium batteries of any chemistry?  I'm not a
> lithium expert by any means; I'm just asking.
>
> It occurs to me that some of Chris's parasitic loads could be coming from
> "inside the house," so to speak.  That is, they might be from the BMS.
>
> I have 24v and 36v 10ah LiFePO4 batteries with a BMS with logic that's
> powered by a 12v tap (not the optimum design), and the 4 cells that power
> the BMS always take longer than the others to reach full charge.  For long
> term storage I have read a suggestion to disconnect the BMS if possible -
> but don't forget to reconnect it when taking the battery out of storage.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  First they came for the journalists.  We don't know what
>  happened after that.
>
>   -- Unknown
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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>


-- 
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(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Michael Ross via EV]

The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it sit
around, especially in a hot location. For long term storage, I would guess
the best thing is maybe 50% SOC, and keep it as cool as you can without
actually refrigerating it (though I don't know if that is a bad thing). You
can quickly ruin a LiFPO pack by charging your eBike in a hot sunny place,
and leaving it on the charger after full charge, and with the sun. I speak
from experience. I would avoid exceeding 90°F when fully charged.

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 9:01 AM Christopher Darilek via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> I have an 8 year old LiFePO4 pack in my car and wonder if anyone knows
> what the end of life failure mode is for these?
>
> Over the pandemic lock down I was not driving the car for 3 months and
> noticed one day that all the cells were flat, ~2V. I attributed this to
> some parasitic loads over the 3mo, and charged it back up.
>
> Then, with a full charge I drove ~10 miles (about 25% of my 'old' range)
> and parked, and after a couple weeks noticed I was back ~2V per cell.
>
> I put it on charge and it seems to have charged up and is holding voltage
> now.
>
> Is this how LiFePO4 batteries toss in the towel or do I still have a
> parasitic load to debug? What is the failure mode?
>
> Thanks for any tips.
> Chris
> http://www.evalbum.com/4743
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-- 
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(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
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Re: [EVDL] Bloated Trucks/Suvs (one isn't)

[Michael Ross via EV]

The cyber truck has the same silhouette as an F150. It looks bigger but Its
not. F150s don't usually get descriptions like, can't park in the city,
behemoth, and so on. I do understand that size truck is mostly over what is
needed. I use a Scion xB with no rear seats for every thing. I have hauled
16' lumber and plywood on roof racks. I can shut the rear door on a 9'
board.

On Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:06 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> The Buzz might work as a minivan. It depends on whether they produce non
> camping versions.
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Ed Blackmond via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Ed Blackmond" 
> Sent: 24-Apr-21 9:49:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bloated Trucks/Suvs (one isn't)
>
> >
> >
> >>  On Apr 24, 2021, at 7:09 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>  When it comes to EVs, so far all we have is crossovers and SUVs and,
> soon, trucks. No minivans on the horizon as best as I can tell. Is that
> being pushed by marketing or is it perceived market ?
> >
> >Volkswagen says they are going to bring the ID Buzz to market in two
> years.  It can be considered a minivan.
> >
> >Ed
> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] 'All's not well with UK public charging' / Autonomy

[Michael Ross via EV]

The gravitational energy you put into a vehicle climbing a hill, comes back
to you on the downhill side. The effect of weight is often overestimated
for this reason. Battery power is very efficient, in terms of how much you
put in, is close to what you get out, unlike with fossil fuels which are
inordinately wasteful. Not to mention the general filthy nature of it.

For some years now solar production is less costly than fossil fuel
production. It just takes a long time for existing production to wear out
and be retired. The sunk costs of building refineries is enormous and solar
needs its basic infrastructure to be constructed up front. Real estate,
substations, transmission and distribution lines, point of sale apparatus,
and so on. These are what make adoption of renewables slow. However, new
construction of solar and wind are less costly than new construction of
fossil fuel based energy means.

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 10:55 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> If nearly all the savings is from reducing wind resistance, by drafting,
> then the rails aren't really needed. We could build more expensive
> infrastructure, but a cheaper solution is often better. In other words,
> the focus should be on making drafting possible, not reducing rolling
> resistance.
>
> On wikipedia, one estimate for Teslas semi battery is 11800 kg, or more
> than 20 tons. So, yes, a lot of weight. So, non battery power could
> help. But it doesn't have to be rails. Centenaries would be much less
> expensive to construct. Still, my guess is the long term cheapest
> solution is the large battery. Over time, they will get cheaper and
> lighter.



> Big Snip
>
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Re: [EVDL] TMC's Toyoda swipes@ Tesla> (we make real food)

[Michael Ross via EV]

If Toyota or another company does well it will be because they make a car
that competes well. That is what Musk has wanted all along. This is not a
zero sum game, and it will take 10 years or more to make a dent in the ICE
population.

Toyota needs to say this because they have been dense, fossilized, and way
behind. They made other choices that didn't have the legs that they thought
(before there was a Tesla). Prius was a good thing for them and they were
smart to ride that horse. Maybe they should have dismounted sooner. They
have immense resources. If they can't do better than Tesla then they
deserve to lose their jobs. That may happen. Tesla has some things on their
side.

On Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 1:57 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 15 Nov 2020 at 18:33, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> > Toyota's boss has taken a swipe at Tesla, predicting Elon Musk's
> > electric car company will lose out to established motor manufacturers
> > as they catch up in battery vehicles
>
> When you say "electric car" to someone, is it Toyota that the other guy
> thinks of?
>
> In the US, Tesla owns that space in auto buyers' minds, just as Saturn
> owned
> the "small car" slot in 1990.  I think that's less true worldwide, but
> they're working on it.
>
> In any case, if an established automaker does beat out Tesla for EVs in
> the
> long run, chances are it won't be Toyota.  They dropped that ball about 8
> years ago and haven't found it again yet.  EV time is running out for
> Toyota, especially in Europe and Asia.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  People don't sleep enough, and they all seem to be hunting
>  something that can't be caught.  You think you're the dominant
>  species just because you go to the bathroom in a bowl instead
>  of a box.  But who's cleaning up after whom?
>
>-- Souseme, "Felines of New York"
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 95, Issue 18

[Michael Ross via EV]

I thought Solarcities had US factories. And Sunpower. I haven't kept up so
I could be spinning old news.

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020, 7:17 PM Offgrid Systems via EV 
wrote:

> "I couldn't name a single U.S producer of PV
>
> modules, and the BOS equipment is mostly assembled in China as well."
>
> Only one of the best PV modules in the world. Silfab, Bellingham Wa, USA
> and Ontario (I think) Canada. Now shipping 330W monocrystaline at .50/W
> available all day from Platt Electric.
>
> Also Outback Power and Midnite assemble most of their product here in
> the USA.
>
> Wa state companies...all of them!
>
> --
> Kind regards,
>
> Tim Economu
> Offgrid Systems LLC
>
>
> On 9/18/2020 1:08 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 12:39:49 -0700
> > From: "Mr. Sharkey"
> > To:ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Big Oil?s green makeover
> > Message-ID:
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> >
> >   > Wouldn't you expect that these large oil companies would have
> >   > the ability to weather industry downturns, improve the
> >   > technology, and remain around to service warranties, like Siemens,
> >   > as opposed to a smaller company?
> >
> > Well, sure, that would be the expectation, but in their prior
> > exploits in PV, they turned around and sold off the subsidiary when
> > the market for those products got soft and the price point started
> > dropping. That's my point, they aren't dedicated to the principle,
> > only the profits. Even Siemens got out.
> >
> > Essentially 100% of photovoltaic production is from China these days.
> > Without research, I couldn't name a single U.S producer of PV
> > modules, and the BOS equipment is mostly assembled in China as well.
> > What will BO (Big Oil) do when the profit drains away from the
> > charging infrastructure? Maybe it won't, then they will own more of
> > the transportation fueling market. Is that a good thing? IDK, I
> > charge at home with power produced with those Siemens PV's...
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fluoride-ion cell packs bigger punch than lithium-ion

[Michael Ross via EV]

I think Toyota is seriously stodgy, but it is not stupid to go with a
proven winner. They have a selling point about range and availability of
refueling options, for now at least. They are choosing to follow
cultural norms that are passing, but not past. It is probably good
business, or at least they can make enough of a case for what they do
internally. I think it is risky for them, but not very and not for a
decade. A half million annually, cars from Tesla, and a fraction more from
everyone else still doesn't scratch the surface.

Total agreement on the battery side. The best engineering of batteries is
at Tesla. That is who to watch, and who to invest in.

On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 4:43 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> Sigh.  I think it's Lee Hart who classifies phonies as "liars, damned
> liars,
> and battery salesmen."
>
> It's going to be a LONG time before a flouride ion battery is in our EVs,
> if
> it ever happens at all.
>
> https://www.batterypoweronline.com/news/what-the-fluoride-ion-battery-
> breakthrough-really-means/
> 
>
> https://v.gd/tmkxtN
>
> I'm reminded a little of the sodium sulfur battery that Ford touted in the
> late 1960s.
>
> So Toyota is working on it.  That's not much of an endorsement.  From what
> I
> can see, Toyota still doesn't want to make real EVs; they just want to
> keep
> building their hybrids until they're selling 20 of them per year.  It's no
> surprise that they keep wasting their R time and money on fuel cells and
> dead end woo-woo batteries.  Of course Kyoto University is happy to accept
> some of that money.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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>  dictatorships are made.
>
>   -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Michael Ross via EV]

I always thought they took the buffer from both the high and low ends of
SOC%. You don't want to totally deplete or charge a pack to get the longest
life from it.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 10:43 PM Bobby Keeland via EV 
wrote:

> It is interesting. I never thought about whether Tesla took the software
> limited part of the charge from the top or the bottom of the battery pack.
> I'm sure glad that I normally charge to only 85% and rarely take the
> battery pack below 30%.
> BobK
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 11:58 AM Willie via EV  wrote:
>
> >
> > On 7/22/20 12:21 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> > > On Wed Jul 22 08:33:19 PDT 2020 dov...@bellsouth.net said:
> > >> At any rate Tesla doesn't let you use the whole battery anyway even at
> > 100% charged it is not because they gave people temporary range increases
> > during the Florida Hurricane.
> > > Did they need to do more charging to get that extra range?  or if their
> > car was already fully charged, did it just have extra range?
> > > The former means the reduced range is the bottom of the pack, the
> latter
> > means it's the top.
> >
> > I haven't used a car with a software limited battery but, as I
> > understand, the battery is just not allowed to fully charge.  One
> > benefit, observed and reported by many, is that SuperCharging goes MUCH
> > faster near the top.  With a not limited battery, one rarely has the
> > patience to fully charge at a SuperCharger because it tapers to just a
> > few kw near the top.  A second touted benefit of limited batteries is
> > that they have longer life.
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Michael Ross via EV]

The positive electrode becomes very reactive at near fully charged and this
damages the electrolyte. As mentioned charging the last bit is a slow
process. So Tesla limits the charging to extend battery life and to make
charging to "100%" faster.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 5:23 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV 
wrote:

> Are you sure about that?  Rapid Charging LiIon typically slows down as you
> near full charge.
>
> July 22, 2020 9:41 AM, "Willie via EV"  wrote:
>
> > On 7/22/20 12:21 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed Jul 22 08:33:19 PDT 2020 dov...@bellsouth.net said:
> >>> At any rate Tesla doesn't let you use the whole battery anyway even at
> 100% charged it is not
> >>> because they gave people temporary range increases during the Florida
> Hurricane.
> >>
> >> Did they need to do more charging to get that extra range? or if their
> car was already fully
> >> charged, did it just have extra range?
> >> The former means the reduced range is the bottom of the pack, the
> latter means it's the top.
> >
> > I haven't used a car with a software limited battery but, as I
> > understand, the battery is just not allowed to fully charge.  One
> > benefit, observed and reported by many, is that SuperCharging goes MUCH
> > faster near the top.  With a not limited battery, one rarely has the
> > patience to fully charge at a SuperCharger because it tapers to just a
> > few kw near the top.  A second touted benefit of limited batteries is
> > that they have longer life.
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Confused L.Vegas-NV Tesla driver fillup-frustrated @petrol-pump (v)

[Michael Ross via EV]

It doesn't look staged, it looks like the guy is clueless. My guess is he
rented it.

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 10:06 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> Ha ha, isn't that hilarious?  Guy buys a Tesla without knowing it's an EV.
>
> I haven't seen it - I don't do Fakebook - but I'd guess it was staged.
> Now
> that Youtube and Fakebook let people who post video clips take a cut of
> their advertising ("monetize" them), people will do just about anything to
> get views - reasonable or not, legal or not, ethical or not.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  When birds of a feather flock together, the usually don't pay
>  much attention to the amount of crap that they drop.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

[Michael Ross via EV]

Well said, Dave.  I will hang onto my '89 Toyota pickup with those awesome
crank windows and new fangled electronic ignition, no AC. It is 30 years
old now and in NC I don't even have to get it inspected for safety anymore.
(Isn't that strange?) It is hard for cars with lots of little motors and
sensors to be affordable for decades. I suspect that Teslas and EVs will be
better, more durable, than we are accustomed to with contemporaneous ICE. I
just can't afford them.

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:45 AM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> Elon Musk promised us a $30k Tesla.  He didn't deliver one.
>
> Anyone who thinks a $40k car is affordable is clearly not in my socio-
> economic class.  Teslas are cars for your class, not mine.  I've never
> paid
> that much for a new car and (adjusting for inflation) don't ever intend
> to.
> Heck, even if I actually had that much money to spare, I STILL wouldn't
> spend it on a car, EV or not.
>
> There are a lot more of us middle-and lower-class folks in the world than
> there are of you 10-percenters who can afford $40k+ or $80k+ Teslas.  If
> Musk honestly wants to improve the world with EVs, he'd darn well better
> get
> cracking on making some that the rest of us can buy.
>
> Get that bloody Model 3 down to the price it was supposed to be, $30k.
> Then
> introduce a couple of cheap and cheerful little basic hatchbacks the size
> of, say, a VW Up and a Peugeot 208.  Price them around $15-20k and
> $20-25k.
>
> They don't have to go 300 miles on a charge.  A 150-200 mile range will be
> ample.  They don't have to accelerate from 0-60 in 3 seconds, or 6
> seconds.
> A lot of us would be just fine with 10 or 12 seconds - or slower.
>
> We don't need a gigantic touch-screen, either.  Heck, give us crank-down
> windows and plain mechanical door handles.  And skip the autopilot,
> please.
> Just a nice, normal, decently-made car that happens to have an electric
> drivetrain and doesn't cost a year's income or more.
>
> THOSE are the EVs that will change the world - EVs that almost anyone can
> afford. Not big, bloated, heavy, gimmick-laden expensive luxury EVs for a
> tiny wealthy minority.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't
>  mind their own business, because they have no business of their own
> to
>  mind, any more than a smallpox virus has.
>
>  --William Burroughs
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

[Michael Ross via EV]

Yes, I can't justify $40k for a car. That is just crazy to me. I am
driving Scion xB with 250k+ miles on it that I paid $11.9k for with 9K
miles on it. That is the kind of value I need for me to retire and be
financially secure. Taking a loan out for $40k is not going to happen.

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 10:09 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Willie via EV wrote:
> > Charging is no longer an issue.  Most everyone is within 50 miles of a
> > SuperCharger and SuperChargers are (intelligently) spaced about 100
> > miles apart on essentially all major routes.
>
> Well; if you live in the USA on the east or west coast. But they are few
> and far between outside of urban areas in the vast spaces between the
> coasts.
>
> > Claim Teslas are "too expensive" if you wish.  New ones can be bought
> > for less than $40k.
>
> Obviously not too expensive for some; but I've never paid even half that
> for a car. I may get a used one someday (though they are pretty scarce
> around here -- middle of Minnesota)).
>
> Lee Hart
>
> --
> If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
>   - something to do
>   - something to look forward to
>   - someone to love
>   - someone to take good care of
>   - and misbehave, just a little
>   --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

[Michael Ross via EV]

100 is a low temperature relative to other chemistries. 80% SOC is a good
CYA for expensive large packs, but depending on the chemistry you can go
higher. Also, the closer you get to the extemes of SOC the more difficult
for battery management.

Nevertheless, in the time period I mentioned this was true for LiFePO.
Worst thing you could do was charge fully and let the pack get moderately
warm/hot. Maybe they have better electrolytes now.

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020, 2:19 AM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 8 Jul 2020 at 23:39, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > Used to be, I am out of touch, that less than 100°F and 100% SOC was a
> > recipe for significant battery degradation.
>
> I thought it was the other way round - that lithium cells at or near 100%
> SOC would degrade rapidly at high temperatures.  IIRC, the recommendation
> was to keep SOC at or below 80% if high temperatures were expected.  Do I
> have it backwards?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  What has allowed so many psychopathic personalities to rise so high
>  in corporations, and now in government, is that they are so decisive.
>  Unlike normal people, they are never filled with doubts, for the
>  simple reason that they cannot care what happens next.
>
>   -- Kurt Vonnegut
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

[Michael Ross via EV]

Used to be, I am out of touch, that less than 100°F and 100% SOC was a
recipe for significant battery degradation. Not say they haven't solved
this, but 5 year old cells would not be very good in this respect.

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:06 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> I don't think that LiFePO4 has made any remarkable gains in specific
> energy.
>
> What LiFePO4 does have is spectacular cycle life. If manufactured with
> some degree of care, you get 15,000+, 100% SOC, 1C cycles @ 25 Celsius
> from LiFePO4 without going below 50% of the original capacity. They just
> keep going and going You have to seal the case well enough to keep
> air and water out, and use paste, separators, etc. that are also
> reasonably free of water and air on the inside.
>
> Thus, a "million mile" battery has always be possible to make with
> LiFePO4 cells. You just have to be motivated to use quality cells, and
> to actually build it. You also need to be motivated to drive the car
> that many miles. :-)
>
> 200 miles per charge, times 15,000 charge cycles = 3,000,000 miles. Even
> at 5000 cycles, that run-of-the-mill LiFePO4 cells achieve, this gets
> you a million miles.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
> On 7/7/2020 7:43 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> > While I was looking for other information a couple of days ago, I ran
> across
> > something on the web that surprised me.  I didn't follow up at the time
> and
> > now I've lost track of where it was, but maybe someone else here knows
> > something about it.
> >
> > The post or article I saw claimed that Tesla's supposedly-upcoming much-
> > discussed "million mile battery" is lithium iron phosphate chemistry.
> >
> > LiFePO4 was something of an EV holy grail 15-20 years ago.  Valence was
> > offering their Saphion phosphate-based lithium modules around 2002.  A123
> > was also an early LiFePO4 booster.  Both claimed long cycle life and
> > improved safety, and A123s were also known for ferocious specific power.
> >
> > When the cheap and cheerful Chinese low-power versions from Thundersky,
> > CALB, and others started to appear in the States, a lot of them went
> into EV
> > conversions.  You can find discussions about this in the EVDL archive
> around
> > 2006-2009.
> >
> > If memory serves, the main downside to LiFePO4 was specific energy.  It
> just
> > wasn't as good as what cobalt and manganese based chemistries offered.
> >
> > I also seem to recall some kind of patent-related LiFePO4 problem.  This
> may
> > have been the reason that hobbyists jumped on the cheap and cheerful
> Chinese
> > LiFePO4 cells from Thundersky, CALB, and the like.  Again dredging up
> from
> > memory, I think that hose companies somehow (allegedly) made an end run
> > around the patent and licensing concerns.
> >
> > Now, if I'm not mistaken, Tesla's development partner in the "million
> mile
> > battery" is a Chinese firm.  That's ... uh ... interesting.
> >
> > So has the EV world rehabilitated lithium iron phosphate's reputation?
> Has
> > its specific energy problem been solved?  What about licensing and
> patents?
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >   A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars.
> >   It's where the rich use public transportation.
> >
> >  -- Gustavo Petro
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] OT: My E- mower power supply died, help?

[Michael Ross via EV]

No problem Mark. I may go for a new mower. I'm not interested in the power
assist particularly, but getting away from PbSO4 would be nice. I have to
buy about $100 of batteries every 3 or 4 years. If I can't get a good
charger/BMS for my lead acid cells,at a low cost, then a new mower is
likely.

Having 10 mowers ... sounds like bad luck. The mulch bag is falling off the
current mower,so it has been around for a long long time. I can't
remember when I got it. 6 or more years ago and it was used.

Mike

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 10:56 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Oops, sorry. I misread that you were looking for either a charger or
> possibly a new mower.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Jun 23, 2020, at 7:21 PM, Mark Abramowitz 
> wrote:
> >
> > I think that I’m on my 10th electric mower, and my latest is the best
> by far. It’s a Greenworks 40V power-assisted.
> >
> >
> > - Mark
> >
> > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> >
> >> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:48 PM, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >> I have been using a nice programmable AMREL 80V PS for years now to
> charge
> >> my old Black and Decker 24V mower. The PS not working and I would like
> to
> >> get something newer and appropriately priced for the application.
> >>
> >> Can any of you recommend a good 24V lead acid charger? Or perhaps tell
> me
> >> what to look for. Used is good, new is Ok.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Mmike
> >>
> >> --
> >> Michael E. Ross
> >> (919) 585-6737 Land
> >> (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> >> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
> >> Google Phone and Text
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[EVDL] OT: My E- mower power supply died, help?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Hi all,
I have been using a nice programmable AMREL 80V PS for years now to charge
my old Black and Decker 24V mower. The PS not working and I would like to
get something newer and appropriately priced for the application.

Can any of you recommend a good 24V lead acid charger? Or perhaps tell me
what to look for. Used is good, new is Ok.

Thanks!

Mmike

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Re: [EVDL] 9 professional cyclists provide tiny charge2 Tesla-X EV (v)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Jeez what waste of time. A little arithmetic yields the same answer. Most
of us can produce about 125 watts with our leg muscles for continuously for
an hour.  I have heard that the inglorious Lance Armstrong could maintain
750 watt (a horsepower)for a while. It is probably generous to say those
women can maintain 333 watt /hour. So then 9 cyclists can make 3KW/hr.
Yeah, it is gonna take a long time to charge an EV.

It is really cool how efficient a human is.



Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:39 PM evln via EV  wrote:

>
>
> Watch Cyclists Charge a Tesla With Nothing but Human Power
> May 28, 2020 [Popular Mechanics] ... A Finnish inventor has come up with a
> new way to charge a Tesla: using human power. Nine professional cyclists
> rode stationary bikes, which fed power into a charging station that juiced
> up the Model X ... results provided very little charge to the EV, the
> project highlighted how human power can be harnessed to create energy ...
> https://youtu.be/gPMEHgX_sZ4
>
>
> + (Leaf EV has less deaths, but small ice kill)
> https://news.yahoo.com/study-death-rates-drivers-vary-040106507.html
> Study: Death Rates for Drivers Vary by Car Size
> May 27, 2020  When it comes to vehicle crashes, size and weight matter a
> great deal ... Another small car that defied the trend is the electric
> Nissan Leaf, with five deaths per million registered vehicle years ...
> ...
> http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2020/05/28/818073-small-cars-kill.html
> IIHS: Small Cars Kill - Are Higher MPG And A Smaller Monthly Payment Worth
> Your Family's Lives?
> May 28, 2020 ... the results for the Leaf, an all-electric car, may reflect
> when and where electric vehicles are driven ...
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
>  http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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>

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Re: [EVDL] Musk throws another tantrum

[Michael Ross via EV]

The occurrence of OSHA violations is very dependent on the state of the
occurrences. In North Carolina we have about 10 million people, 100
counties, and 11 inspectors. You are pretty certain never to see an
inspector here unless someone dies on the job.

On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 11:10 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Good piece.
>
> There is real danger in spouting off with statistics that don’t tell an
> accurate story.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On May 11, 2020, at 10:52 AM, paul dove via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> >  I posted a link with the facts
> >
> >>On Monday, May 11, 2020, 10:19:10 AM CDT, Peri Hartman via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Yes, I completely agree with Lee on the "free pass" statement. It's
> >> really a double standard to oppose, say, the oil industry and then give
> >> Tesla a free pass just because you happen to support some aspect of the
> >> company.
> >>
> >> Peri
> >>
> >> << Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ?
> >> https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> >>
> >> -- Original Message --
> >> From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
> >> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> >> Cc: "Lee Hart" 
> >> Sent: 11-May-20 8:15:03 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Musk throws another tantrum
> >>
> >>> paul dove via EV wrote:
> >>> 54 violations in 5 years does not constitute not caring about
> >>> employees.
> >>
> >> No; by itself, that may or may not be unusual. But David Roden said
> >> Tesla had 3 times as many OSHA violations as Nissan, Toyota, Ford, Kia,
> >> and Mercedes all put together. *That* is worrisome.
> >>
> >> When you see the tip of an iceberg, it's reasonable to assume that the
> >> rest of it is there, too!
> >>
> >>> I have yet to figure out why you hate Tesla. They are made in the US.
> >>> They are the best and safest car on the market. They are electric.
> >>> Yet you bad mouth them every chance you get.
> >>
> >> First, leave out the Ad Hominem attacks. Stick to the facts, and skip
> the "insult the messenger" stuff.
> >>
> >> Second, there is no question that Tesla makes great cars. But that does
> not give them a "free pass" in their behavior. They still have to follow
> the rules.
> >>
> >> You cannot say, "So-and-so is a great football star; so it doesn't
> matter if he beats his wife".
> >>
> >> Lee Hart
> >> -- When something bad happens, you have three choices: You can let it
> >> define you; let it destroy you; or you can let it strengthen you.
> >> -- Theodor Seuss Geisel
> >> --
> >> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, http://www.sunrise-ev.com
> >> ___
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> >>
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Musk throws another tantrum

[Michael Ross via EV]

I think the Nevada site may have needed less protection from environmental
effects of ths factory. That is a good idea. Build where the impact is
lower. CA says it is too impactful, Nevada says this is not too impactful.
Learn more and then respond. Can we afford it? Then let's do it. Why does
this indicate nefarious motivation? This is not a rhetorical inquiry. Is
there any evidence of unwholesome intent - building in a better location?
Or is it just a better solution?

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 9:54 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Musk did not want to comply with state environmental planning and
> disclosure requirements, and tried to get our legislature to exempt him.
> When that didn’t work, he build his battery factory in Nevada, where they
> have lax requirements.
>
> Pattern and practice, though ironic.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On May 10, 2020, at 4:01 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> >> On 5/10/20 11:38 AM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> >> It is a classically human response to be continually biased, and not
> taking
> >> in new information, or considering new  knowledge structures when a
> person
> >> has decided on a position and defended it publically, and with energy.
> The
> >> trick is to know that, to seek nonconforming information, and synthesize
> >> it. You clearly don't like Musk, but he is capable of more than you
> >> believe. I believe.
> >
> > I believe proof of Tesla expertise has been submitted to us.  I, too, am
> puzzled by persistent Tesla negativity.  Especially when suspicion in the
> past has been proven groundless so many times.   Well. it IS a free
> country.  With freedom of speech.
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
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>

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Re: [EVDL] Musk throws another tantrum

[Michael Ross via EV]

It is a classically human response to be continually biased, and not taking
in new information, or considering new  knowledge structures when a person
has decided on a position and defended it publically, and with energy. The
trick is to know that, to seek nonconforming information, and synthesize
it. You clearly don't like Musk, but he is capable of more than you
believe. I believe.

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 11:51 AM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 10 May 2020 at 9:36, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > I am betting his approach is to try to forge ahead and at the same time
> > try to make it safe for his employees.
>
> You may know something that I don't, but that's not a bet I'd make.  Tesla
> doesn't run a safe shop.  From 2014 to 2018, they had 3 times as many OSHA
> violations as Nissan, Toyota, Ford, Kia, and Mercedes all put together.
>
> That, and his stressful work culture, suggests to me that Musk considers
> his
> assembly workers disposable.  That seems literally true now that he's hot
> to
> get them back to work and passing around a fatal disease.
>
> > Tantrum? That is just a biased, provocative, and unhelpful way to view
> > it.
>
> How else would you describe Musk's twitter-fits?  He sounds like a
> petulant
> 4th-grader: if California won't play his way, he's going to take his toys
> and go home to Texas.
>
> That's going to be a pretty expensive snit, if he carries it out.  I don't
> see how Tesla can afford it.
>
> They can't seem to stay profitable, and their main market, the US, is
> turning EV-unfriendly.  Their US tax credit is done. A lot of their
> revenue
> comes from other automakers buying their emissions credits.  What happens
> as
> EU and Asian automakers increase their own EV production, and have less
> need
> for those credits?  They seem to be betting on China, and that might be
> smart, but they haven't made much sales headway in Europe.
>
> Don't get me wrong here.  Musk is a genius and his company designs and
> builds outstanding vehicles that happen to be EVs.  But his erratic
> behavior
> is driving off his executive talent and giving investors headaches.
>
> More than that, it's having an effect on folks likely to buy EVs -
> intelligent, educated tech people.  Over the years I've watched as their
> comments about Musk and Tesla have gone from admiring and interested to
> appalled and repelled. That's not the way you make your company look like
> a
> good corporate citizen.
>
> If Musk wants to reverse that trend, I think he needs to chill a little,
> back off the ranting, and demonstrate more concern for his employees.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Musk throws another tantrum

[Michael Ross via EV]

Profit is a straw man. Just look at Netflix. Musk's goal is making as many
EVs as possible, he would go broke doing it, sell his house and start over
if it came to that. Not normal, but a recipe for success. It is a shame he
ever went public, but maybe it made sense at the time. SpaceX-  it was
clear that the public equity model would never work.

Applying the analysis of profit to companies like Netflix and Tesla is just
poor thinking. It requires different metrics, because the goal is not to
make profit, but to expand. Fast.

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 11:51 AM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 10 May 2020 at 9:36, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > I am betting his approach is to try to forge ahead and at the same time
> > try to make it safe for his employees.
>
> You may know something that I don't, but that's not a bet I'd make.  Tesla
> doesn't run a safe shop.  From 2014 to 2018, they had 3 times as many OSHA
> violations as Nissan, Toyota, Ford, Kia, and Mercedes all put together.
>
> That, and his stressful work culture, suggests to me that Musk considers
> his
> assembly workers disposable.  That seems literally true now that he's hot
> to
> get them back to work and passing around a fatal disease.
>
> > Tantrum? That is just a biased, provocative, and unhelpful way to view
> > it.
>
> How else would you describe Musk's twitter-fits?  He sounds like a
> petulant
> 4th-grader: if California won't play his way, he's going to take his toys
> and go home to Texas.
>
> That's going to be a pretty expensive snit, if he carries it out.  I don't
> see how Tesla can afford it.
>
> They can't seem to stay profitable, and their main market, the US, is
> turning EV-unfriendly.  Their US tax credit is done. A lot of their
> revenue
> comes from other automakers buying their emissions credits.  What happens
> as
> EU and Asian automakers increase their own EV production, and have less
> need
> for those credits?  They seem to be betting on China, and that might be
> smart, but they haven't made much sales headway in Europe.
>
> Don't get me wrong here.  Musk is a genius and his company designs and
> builds outstanding vehicles that happen to be EVs.  But his erratic
> behavior
> is driving off his executive talent and giving investors headaches.
>
> More than that, it's having an effect on folks likely to buy EVs -
> intelligent, educated tech people.  Over the years I've watched as their
> comments about Musk and Tesla have gone from admiring and interested to
> appalled and repelled. That's not the way you make your company look like
> a
> good corporate citizen.
>
> If Musk wants to reverse that trend, I think he needs to chill a little,
> back off the ranting, and demonstrate more concern for his employees.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] Musk throws another tantrum

[Michael Ross via EV]

I promise this is not OT. Though What Musk does with his businesses could
be considered such.

As an at risk, well educated, and following the science closely person I
get it that we need to be very strict to reduce sickness and death from the
novel coronavirus. This is a very tricky one since virus shedding starts
days before any harsh symptoms begin, and asymptomatic carriers are
shedding a lot of virus, for days with no way to know they are. Then the
main method of transmission is simply talking.

Where I live, in North Carolina we are following a very dysfunctional
protocol, trying very hard to keep this from turning out as well as it did
in Korea, for instance. We don't do contact tracing, we don't do testing,
most people don't wear masks, or stand back from others except when
peer behavior makes it plain that a location is trying to do the best
possible. So we are paying the price of lots of people not working, kids at
home all the time, etc. but getting no real benefit from it. We are looking
at dragging this pandemic out for a couple of years.

It is pretty clear that we have constructed a situation where we cannot
sustain what needs to be done that will make this turn out well. People are
going back to work here at the first hint of relaxing official rules, and
they are acting as if this is not a highly contagious disease that is going
to kill a lot of people or maim a bunch that recover. And I get it. We
can't do this with comprehensive isolation and lockdown. But, we are not
doing the other things we must do, either.

In this context, Musk is watching opportunity just dissolve into thin air.
I am betting his approach is to try to forge ahead and at the same time try
to make it safe for his employees. He will get rid of the folks that can't
help him do it (in this case the government of CA).  Who knows maybe he
will sequester a bunch of Texans and really hit a home run. Check their
temperatures regularly, and do real contact tracing. See to their well
being if they get sick, and so on. He can't afford to kill off the skilled
workforce he has assembled, you can bet he knows that. They are problem
solvers and this could be the sharp end of the the stick they decided is
necessary. It is a pickle. Tantrum? That is just a biased, provocative, and
unhelpful way to view it.

California may not be constitutionally able to let him try. He is trying to
force their hand though because it will be enormously expensive to
relocate. Either way if he can keep rolling, safely, making the best EVs on
the planet, it will be better for everyone.

I am open to the idea that Musk may be seeking a suboptimal, but best case
solution here. I think suboptimal is the best we can do right now.

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:54 AM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> Glad someone is speaking up
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On May 10, 2020, at 2:40 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >
> > 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/10/elon-musk-threatens-to-move-
> > tesla-hq-out-of-california-over-covid-19-restrictions
> >
> > Elon Musk threatens to move Tesla HQ out of California over Covid-19
> > restrictions
> >
> > Reuters
> > Published on Sat 9 May 2020 22.25 EDT
> >
> > Tesla is suing local authorities in California as the electric carmaker
> > pushes to reopen its factory there and chief executive Elon Musk
> threatens
> > to move the company´s headquarters to Texas or Nevada.
> >
> > Musk has been pushing to reopen Tesla´s Fremont, California, factory
> after
> > Alameda County´s health department said the carmaker must not reopen
> because
> > local lockdown measures to curb the spread of the coronavirus remain in
> > effect.
> >
> > Tesla filed a lawsuit against the county on Saturday, calling the
> continued
> > restrictions a "power-grab" by the county since California´s governor
> had
> > said on Thursday that manufacturers in the state would be allowed to
> reopen.
> > The company said Alameda was going against the federal and California
> > constitutions, as well as defying the governor´s order, in the lawsuit
> filed
> > in San Francisco federal court.
> >
> > Alameda County, where the Fremont factory is located, is scheduled to
> remain
> > shut until the end of May, with only essential businesses allowed to
> reopen.
> > County officials did not immediately respond to a request for comment on
> the
> > lawsuit.
> >
> > The outspoken Musk also took to Twitter on Saturday to complain and
> > threatened to leave the state.  "If we even retain Fremont manufacturing
> > activity at all, it will be dependent on how Tesla is treated in the
> > future," he tweeted. The San Francisco Bay area facility is currently
> > Tesla´s only US vehicle factory.
> >
> >[Tweet] "Frankly, this is the final straw. Tesla will now move its HQ
> > and future programs to Texas/Nevada immediately. If we even retain
> Fremont
> > manufacturing activity at all, it will be dependen on how Tesla is
> treated
> > in 

Re: [EVDL] Are these A123 batteries a wise purchase?

[Michael Ross via EV]

My comments were really only in the context of EV application.

The most knowledgeable people in a particular tech space are usually also
the ones that have the most to gain. Its a common problem. I had a
job where a new-ish product was being made that did not fit the ASTM
standards for the application. Of course the people on that committee had
no interest in supporting a different, not necessarily better competitor.
My sense is that had the product actually been noticeably better there
would have been even lower viscosity in the standard adjusting process.

There needs to be a customer group pushing ahead. That means they have to
read the papers, make the contacts with the doers, and develop a fuller
understanding of the arising technologies and the spectrum of current cell
technologies. Protectiion of IP always gets in the way of doing this stull
proactively.

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 3:11 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> > 1C huh?  That is not stressful at all and only a truly sh#t cell would
> > have much trouble with that.
>
> Ah, but that is heavily dependent on the kind of cell you are testing.
> There are many types of cells for which a 1C rate is a relatively fast
> discharge.
>
> Also, 1C is a pretty reasonable rate for a lot of applications; things
> that you want to work for about an hour on a charge. Even some EVs are
> close to this; a golf cart or EV with a range under 100 miles discharges
> its batteries at about this rate. Many things like phones and laptops
> have even lower discharge rates.
>
> We need standards, so there are at least *some* benchmarks to use as a
> basis to compare claims. Without them, all we have are manufacturer's
> claims, which are mostly invented by Marketing.
>
> > You said: "You need some test that is uniform for all manufacturers."
> >
> > I must disagree. This is the thinking that has us many decades along the
> > way with no good way to compare battery cells.
>
> On the contrary. We *have* had standard comparison tests for batteries
> for many decades. They are well established for most types of
> batteries... except lithium. It's the "new kid on the block", and so
> far, the manufacturers haven't seen fit to play by the rules.
>
> > The problem is you can't really compare batteries based on some simple
> > criteria. If you dig into the Dalhousie research, you can see that the
> more
> > complete and useful picture has a lot of detail. Medtronic and Tesla are
> > two for the larger contributors to proprietary research. Both wanted to
> do
> > a lot more than simply compete with existing tech.
>
> Of course! That's always been true. Anyone who really cares about
> battery performance will do their own testing, tailored to their
> specific requirements. And they won't share that data with competitors!
>
> But we still need standard testing for "the rest of us". Individuals and
> small manufacturers need *some* way to compare cells, and pick the ones
> that are at least reasonable for their applications.
>
> > I think maybe the testing protocols should be developed with a lot less
> > input from the manufacturers. Fox guarding the henhouse and all that.
>
> Yes. In general, earlier battery standard tests were devised by people
> like BCI (Battery Council International). It was a consortium funded by
> battery *users*, to combat the rampant deception in battery manufacturer
> specifications.
>
> Lee Hart
> --
> Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
> our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
> and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> ___
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>

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Re: [EVDL] Are these A123 batteries a wise purchase?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Hi Bill,
Thanks for the commnet. I have no connection with testing the last 5 years
so I was wondering. You probably have more reason to care about this
than almost anyone. 1C huh?  That is not stressful at all and only are
truly sh#t cell would have much trouble with that.

Isn't it lovely that everyone settled on a standard of testing that is hard
to fail, and informs almost nothing about the quality of design or
manufacture.

You said: "You need some test that is uniform for all manufacturers."

I must disagree. This is the thinking that has us many decades along the
way with no good way to compare battery cells.
We need to note this for what it is, a bad paradigm.

The problem is you can't really compare batteries based on some simple
criteria. If you dig into the Dalhousie research, you can see that the more
complete and useful picture has a lot of detail. Medtronic and Tesla are
two for the larger contributors to proprietary research. Both wanted to do
a lot more than simply compete with existing tech. Medtronic wanted cells
you can implant in a human body and have it do work for decades without
failure. Tesla the same, but implant them in automobiles. Neither was
really selling the cells *per** se*. Instead they were trying to make a
higher order design better.

I think maybe the testing protocols should be developed with a lot less
input from the manufacturers. Fox guarding the henhouse and all that.

Mike



On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:04 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> This 1C test is the standard test that allows inter-comparison of cells
> from brand to brand.



> You need some sort of a test under standard
> conditions, for different size cells, for different voltage cells, etc.
> * You need some test that is uniform for all manufacturers.* This is the
> test everyone settled on.

SNIP



> --

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Re: [EVDL] Are these A123 batteries a wise purchase?

[Michael Ross via EV]

As shown by the research at Dalhousie, 16000 cycles is meaningless if the
conditions are watered down.
That kind of cycle count is falsely impressive, and a huge waste of time
and resources.

Are there any useful testing standards becoming a tradition? As in
standards that actually stress the cells in some way other than cycle count?

Part of Tesla's success with cell life comes from actually breaking cells
and trying to make them better.

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On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 6:19 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> The A123 systems 26650 cylindrical cells have a _huge_ cycle life.
>
> Way over 5000 cycles at a 1C rate. 100% SOC discharge. (They have cycled
> a 26650 cell more than 16,000 times and still have greater than 50%
> capacity.)
>
> The main trouble with higher rates is the elevated cell temperature
> while testing. Higher rates => higher temperature => shorter life span.
> The issue becomes entangled with calendar life. Calendar life is a steep
> function of temperature. Exponential, actually.
>
> Bill D.
>
> On 4/17/2020 9:09 AM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> > Then you run up against an insignificant sample size. Can you get specs
> and
> > trust them? When I was trying to sort this out in the 2014 time frame,
> > testing was ALL crap. You couldn't believe much of anything. Partly
> > because no one really know how to test well, and many did not want to
> know.
> > The tradition was to run a lot of cycles at levels that caused no damage
> at
> > all.
> >
> > I sort of forget the original query, isn't this about A123? Prismatics?
> > Those are pouch cells. I have developed a cognitive bias against that
> form.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
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> > Virus-free.
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> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:59 PM paul dove  wrote:
> >
> >> Good point but you don't know how much faster it will degrade at 50
> amps.
> >>
> >> 75% in 800, 500, 200 cycles, etc.
> >>
> >> I would buy one and test it first.
> >>
> >> On Thursday, April 16, 2020, 1:54:04 PM CDT, Michael Ross via EV <
> >> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> It is important to figure out what the #cycles means to you personally.
> >> 1000 cycles is a lot even daily - for some people.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 2:39 PM paul dove via EV 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Cycle Life (retaining 70% capacity) at 20A Discharge, 100% DOD: >1,000
> >>> cycles
> >>>
> >>> This tells me you don’t want to discharge at 50A if at 20A you are down
> >>> 30% capacity in 1000 cycles.
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Are these A123 batteries a wise purchase?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Then you run up against an insignificant sample size. Can you get specs and
trust them? When I was trying to sort this out in the 2014 time frame,
testing was ALL crap. You couldn't believe much of anything. Partly
because no one really know how to test well, and many did not want to know.
The tradition was to run a lot of cycles at levels that caused no damage at
all.

I sort of forget the original query, isn't this about A123? Prismatics?
Those are pouch cells. I have developed a cognitive bias against that form.




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On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:59 PM paul dove  wrote:

> Good point but you don't know how much faster it will degrade at 50 amps.
>
> 75% in 800, 500, 200 cycles, etc.
>
> I would buy one and test it first.
>
> On Thursday, April 16, 2020, 1:54:04 PM CDT, Michael Ross via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>
> It is important to figure out what the #cycles means to you personally.
> 1000 cycles is a lot even daily - for some people.
>
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 2:39 PM paul dove via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Cycle Life (retaining 70% capacity) at 20A Discharge, 100% DOD: >1,000
> > cycles
> >
> > This tells me you don’t want to discharge at 50A if at 20A you are down
> > 30% capacity in 1000 cycles.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Apr 16, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> >
> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ele/d/hayward-a-battery-cells-33v-2500-mah/7098505376.html
> > >
> > > Are these batteries a wise purchase? I am building it for a 40 amp 72v
> > controller.  This would be my first lithium build. I think I could bet by
> > with one string of 21 but would 2 or three strings be wiser? I don't need
> > the range just hill climbing.  Since the batteries can put out 50 amps
> > continous why spend more money unless the pack would last longer or be
> more
> > durable. Just brainstorming here. What BMS etc.?  Thanks Lawrence
> > Rhodes...should I make a spot welder? Doesn't seem too hard.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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Re: [EVDL] Are these A123 batteries a wise purchase?

[Michael Ross via EV]

It is important to figure out what the #cycles means to you personally.
1000 cycles is a lot even daily - for some people.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 2:39 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> Cycle Life (retaining 70% capacity) at 20A Discharge, 100% DOD: >1,000
> cycles
>
> This tells me you don’t want to discharge at 50A if at 20A you are down
> 30% capacity in 1000 cycles.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 16, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ele/d/hayward-a-battery-cells-33v-2500-mah/7098505376.html
> >
> > Are these batteries a wise purchase? I am building it for a 40 amp 72v
> controller.  This would be my first lithium build. I think I could bet by
> with one string of 21 but would 2 or three strings be wiser? I don't need
> the range just hill climbing.  Since the batteries can put out 50 amps
> continous why spend more money unless the pack would last longer or be more
> durable. Just brainstorming here. What BMS etc.?  Thanks Lawrence
> Rhodes...should I make a spot welder? Doesn't seem too hard.
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] .tw Tesla-3 crashes, over-turns (v)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Mmm, good idea with the water.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 5:54 AM evln via EV  wrote:

>
>
> https://taiwanenglishnews.com/tesla-catches-fire-after-crash-driver-dies/
> Tesla catches fire after crash: driver dies
> April 3, 2020  A Tesla Model 3 caught fire after hitting a traffic island
> and overturning in Taoyuan ... After stabilizing the main fire, the lithium
> ion batteries continued to burn ...
>
> https://i1.wp.com/taiwanenglishnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/tesla-on-fire.jpg
> ...
> https://youtu.be/VLXTTejFbVU
>
>
> +
>
> https://www.thestar.com.my/news/regional/2020/04/16/tesla-opens-online-store-on-alibaba039s-tmall
> Tesla opens online store on Alibaba's Tmall
> 16 Apr 2020  US electric car company Tesla announced that it opened its
> first online flagship store on China's leading e-commerce platform
> Tmall.com
> ... Consumers can purchase auto parts and charging services as well as make
> test drive reservations at the online store ...
> https://apicms.thestar.com.my/uploads/images/2020/04/16/645889.jpg
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
>  http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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>
>

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Re: [EVDL] Deaf Scooter and Palmdale Sheriff Coal Rolled. Consequences!

[Michael Ross via EV]

That rumor could go viral and I would like it.

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 1:46 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Sounds doubtful. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a law that would
> apply. But a $25K fine, vehicle crushed, license suspended sound highly
> exaggerated.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
> Sent: 05-Mar-20 9:28:37 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Deaf Scooter and Palmdale Sheriff Coal Rolled.
> Consequences!
>
> >  My friend Deafscooter(Craig Uydea) Told me this story. He and a Sheriff
> on bike were coal rolled. The Sheriff radioed a unit. The driver arrested.
> Vehicle impounded. Round guilty. $25,000 fine. Vehicle crushed. License
> suspended. Can anyone confirm this or any other incidents similar to this?
> Lawrence Rhodes
> >___
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> >
>
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>
>

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Re: [EVDL] Cheapest off grid storage but can it be used to make electricity.

[Michael Ross via EV]

It is an inspired and compulsive goal to be off grid.

He is not accounting for labor and the enormous complication to his home.
He is not accounting for the far greater value of his time. What he is
doing to his house will never be appreciated when he tries to sell it and
move, so he is anchored to his home. Good or bad? I can't say. I put in
5.6kW of PV that will out live me by decades, so we all have a personal
choices that don't make sense to many other people.

While solar thermal (he never addressed the actual collector system or
accounted for ist cost) is 70% efficient, it is lower quality energy (from
an entropic POV)  than solar PV and harder to actually apply in the home.
Pumps, piping, wiring, mixing valves. Is he on a municipal water supply, or
a self powered well system? Anyway, solar thermal is very troublesome to
build and maintain versus a grid tied PV system. You could buy PV and use
resistance heaters and it might be a good trade off compared to thermal,
provided you can actually site the PV well. This is why the solar thermal
business is all but dead these days. You can DIY it, but that is about the
only way.

He is paying $10/kwh (if you accept his very hazy estimates for a number of
things) where he can probably buy power for $0.20 / kwh. It is hard to see
what the money side of this really looks like.  If he actually has a grid,
then this is extravagant.



On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 2:58 AM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> Very interesting project with the math explained. Lawrence Rhodes
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryJmtItfaXQ
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] dink GM hummer as pu e-truck = ( :dumb: ... ?vaporware?)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Typo in the last sentence. Should have read:

"Could it someday become a symbol of a new, more sustainable erection?"

On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 9:38 PM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
>  (?vaporware? as -GM pr- , automakers @their wasteful-worst)
>
> https://chargedevs.com/newswire/hummer-to-be-reborn-as-gm-electric-pickup-truck/
> Hummer to be reborn as GM electric pickup truck
> January 11, 2020  Charles Morris; WSJ
>
> [image
>
> https://468y981o84o43v2wo2600a0gcj-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Hummer-AdobeStock_.jpeg
>  ice
> ]
>
> We’ve often accused the legacy automakers of lacking imagination, but now
> we
> see that at least someone at GM has a sense of irony. The company’s first
> announced electric pickup truck will be called a Hummer.
>
> GM will not be reviving the Hummer make, which choked to death in 2010, but
> will sell the Hummer pickup under the GMC brand.
>
> The Wall Street Journal reports that the e-Hummer “is likely to be sold in
> small volumes as a rugged, jeep-like pickup truck for off-road
> enthusiasts,”
> according to “people briefed on the strategy.” It’s expected to go on sale
> by early 2022, and will be among the first of several large electric SUVs
> and pickup trucks from GM.
>
> GM will build this beast, and other electric trucks, at its
> Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant, which was marked for closure before the
> company announced plans for a $3-billion renovation in October.
>
> WSJ says GM plans to run an ad for the new irony-mobile during next month’s
> Super Bowl.
>
> Aside from the headline-grabbing comedic aspects of the announcement, this
> is a milestone because it represents a 180-degree turnaround for GM. Until
> recently, most electric offerings from non-Tesla brands have been small,
> practical cars, which, as any marketer will tell you, hold little appeal
> for
> US buyers. Now GM is going to electrify the biggest and baddest surrogate
> sex organ in the auto industry. No specs have been announced, but it’s safe
> to assume that the e-Hummer will boast plenty of horsepower and towing
> capacity.
>
> A Sierra Club official once said the Hummer “embodied the worst impulses of
> the American auto industry.” ...
> [© chargedevs.com]
>
>
>
> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/10/gm-buys-super-bowl-air-time-to-resurrect-an-all-electric-version-of-the-hummer-sources-say.html
> GM buys Super Bowl airtime to resurrect an all-electric version of the
> Hummer, sources say
> 2020/01/10  GM is resurrecting the Hummer, buying Super Bowl airtime to
> debut an all-electric pickup version of its gas-guzzling ... General Motors
> is resurrecting the Hummer as an all-electric pickup ...
>
> https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/46593858-Hummer-Iconic-Brands-That-Disappeared-CNBC.jpg
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://www.evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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>
>

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Re: [EVDL] EVangel-About: ?Do I really want to be a Cyberpunk?

[Michael Ross via EV]

The CyberPickup might actually be very functional. Not easy to tell
because it is visually incomparable.

There are a lot of opportunities for the truck that electrification will
open up. Torque will be enormous. It will be batshit crazy fast compared to
contemporary PUs.  It will have all the cool bells and whistles that are
still lacking in other makes. It may evan be a better off road machine with
better weigh distribution and torque control.

On the hauling side I see a lot of pretty PUs pulling trailers to haul the
goods, since there is a big cab and a small bed. So that idea is already a
success in the real world.

Personally, I find the appearance off putting, but I could get over it if
it functions well. (After all I have a love affair with the early
model Scion xBs.)

It is a curious thing how Americans buy autos that are really for more
expensive and rich in gew-gaws than seems reasonable.  They would rather
drive a $40K car with a 7 year mortgage on it than retire with the funds to
avoid penury. On that basis, I am sure a decent number of first adopters
are out there willing to try it out. And if it works well, it will sell
enough to get another better interaction.

I am grateful that Musk is willing to have a whack at new things.

On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 1:38 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> > I suspect that the typical truck buyer probably WILL want
> > something that looks more like the traditional pickup, which as you
> > say, hasn't really changed much in 70+ years.
>
> That's my guess as well. It looks more like a sports car styled to look
> like a pickup, rather than a real truck. It reminds me of the old Chevy
> El Camino or Ford El Ranchero (cars with a small pickup bed in the back).
>
> Tesla may find a market for it; but it probably won't be the sort of
> people that buy normal pickup trucks.
>
> In a way, it might be a missed opportunity. The automaker pickups have
> also strayed away from the traditional "work truck" pickup, in favor of
> luxury 4-passenger car-like vehicles that happen to have a small bed in
> back. Most of them can't carry a 4x8 sheet of plywood, either.
>
> Lee
>
> --
> ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make
> better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep
> you in business? -- Hunter Cressall
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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>
>

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Re: [EVDL] li ion battery in cold weather

[Michael Ross via EV]

I am late to this discussion and have little to add, but this called me to
comment:

"I did a bit of research. Some authors talk about "intercalation", which
happens below freezing. Intercalation is when the anode becomes plated with
lithium ions instead of the ions being absorbed into the anode."

I don't know the authors referred to, but this is an incorrect definition
of intercalation. Intercalation is the nestling of Li ions between sheets
of graphene in the anode. It happens are all temperatures, not only below
freezing.
[Here is a hoard of images describing intercalation:  
http://tinyurl.com/y46elflk]

Intercalation has nothing to do with Li plating onto the anode.
Intercalation of the ions is what makes Li ion cells so much better than
PbSO4, and why there is little decrease in the state of charge if a cell
sits for a long time. The ions sort of drop into little pockets of the
hexagonal structure of carbon in graphene. It is a stable condition. I base
this on the Waterloo lecture by Dr. Jeff Dahn,and other reference material.
I am old enough to forget stuff, but I am pretty certain of this.

The decrease in cell function due to plating is purely mechanical. The
anode needs to be porous enough that ions pass from the electrolyte easily.
he plating of the Li on the SEI (solid electrolyte interphase) of the anode
simply blocks the passage of ions and reduces their ability to penetrate
the anode. It clogs the screen so to speak. This is not intercalation it is
simple plating.

Clotting up the SEI of the anode nd degredation of the electrolyte are
significant causes of cell dysfunction. the discharged cathode is highly
reactive and mess with the electrolyte. A lot of improvements in Li ion
cells is additives to make the electrolyte less easily damaged when the
cell is fully charged. Heat is also a factor when the cell is fully
charged. This is a good reason to mostly charge no more than 80% or 90% of
100% SOC. It keeps the positive electrode from becoming fully reactive and
starting to tear up the electrolyte.

Back the subject of cold performance. Part of the problem is simply
increased viscosity of the electrolyte leading to lower mobility of the
ions. I am not sure what is going on with electrolyte formulation, but
lower viscosity was one of the main paths of interest 5 years ago.

A little OT: some electrochemists are averse to talking about anodes and
cathodes preferring to refer to the positive and negative electrodes. This
is because the words anode and cathode apparently change meaning depending
on whether a cell is charging or discharging. Referring to positive and
negative electrodes eliminates confusion.

The purchase and application of the graphene has a major effect on cell
capacity. Definitely non-trivial. You don't just smear some carbon on a
sheet of copper. (You could make a Li ion cell in your garage, but it would
be limited by your ability to make a quality application of the graphene.)
Cell capacity 5 years ago was limited by the ability of the graphene to
make proper orientation in the manufactured electrode, and therefore the
availability of sites for intercalation iwas limited. A cell with
theoretically perfect graphene formation would be many times greater in
capacity.

Mike






On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 8:12 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> You are confusing electric current with a chemical process.
> Ohms law does not apply in a chemical process.
> Low temperatures slow the chemical reaction and charge transfer
> velocity, which leads to the decrease of ionic conductivity in the
> electrolytes and lithium-ion diffusion within the electrodes. Such decrease
> will result in the reduction of energy and power capability, and sometimes
> even performance failure.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:38 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone have a more in-depth explanation why li ion cells perform
> poorly in cold weather ? It's well known that your range goes down when the
> battery is cold. Lots of writers talk about the phenomena and advise you
> about it but fail to give any real explanations. I think this conversation
> may have come up a long while ago but it's hard to search for.
>
> I did a bit of research. Some authors talk about "intercalation", which
> happens below freezing. Intercalation is when the anode becomes plated with
> lithium ions instead of the ions being absorbed into the anode. Obviously,
> that permanently ruins the battery. So, this is irrelevant regarding poor
> range in cold weather.
>
> I did find one article that might be relevant, though.
>
>
> https://cen.acs.org/articles/96/i10/Rechargeable-battery-weathers-extreme-cold-conditions.html
>
> They claim the electrolyte becomes viscous, slowing down the ion movement.
> That's about all they say. But, I'll add my thoughts.
>
> If the electrolyte is viscous, then I suspect the voltage potential drops.
> Since watts-hours (energy) is V * Ah, you have less energy available,
> 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Mazda Does Not Believe In Large-kWh EV packs (v)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Well Mazda does make good Wankels and if you run them in their sweet spot
they get quite good mpg.  Wankels can be tiny and make lots of high speed
RPMs, no vibration at all. Maybe they are a good option for a hybrid where
it is really running on electrons out the wheels.

It is a hybrid then a small pack makes fine sense.


Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 8:14 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 8 Sep 2019 at 14:21, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> > Sound plays a part. Mazda is still deciding on the final audio mix, but
> the
> > TPV serves up a subtle soundtrack (partly amplified electric-motor
> noises,
> > partly generated) that grows stronger and more urgent as the torque
> increases.
>
> I have a better idea.  Why don't they just include a 6 year old boy with
> every TPV?  Then you can have him sit in the back seat and make brrr-brrr-
> vroom motor noises as you drive down the road in your not-so-quiet EV.
>
> I guess that fake automatic transmission creep wasn't sufficiently
> annoying.
>
> Who knew CM Kornbluth would turn out to be a prophet?
>
> Interesting.  Mazda thinks that drivers want more noise and less range in
> their EVs. They also think that it's a great idea to use a Wankel engine
> in
> a hybrid.  Great idea: Wankel engines are noted for smooth operation and
> for
> abysmal fuel efficiency.
>
> Is Mazda trying to commit corporate harikari?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] ] *8/30-31 only: BuyNow $1.7k priced, Elf enclosed_e-trike SF-CA> needs battery

[Michael Ross via EV]

I own one and I have walked the hills in San Fran, you are not going to
like it there. You will bust a gut trying to go up, and wish it was a car
trying to slow and stop going down. I speak from experience as a long time
cyclist and one who commuted 25 miles each way on an ELF. You had better be
in shape if there is much distance or inclination.

I maintained mine myself, but finding experience mech help willing to work
on it will be non trivial. Earlier models had a power train that was
troublesome. If the motor is hub mounted rather than as a mid drive, then
there are durability issues. Not sure why you care about wheel diameter. It
is not worth worrying about that, just pump them up hard.

You buy it and you will find out why the price has taken a dive. Buy it for
yourself, not for a wife or SO.

On Sun, Sep 1, 2019, 4:16 AM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

>
>
> On Sunday, September 1, 2019, 12:02:39 AM PDT, Lawrence Rhodes <
> primobass...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> I wish I could but the wife said it would have to come with divorce
> papers. Lawrence Rhodes It is a good deal.
> On Saturday, August 31, 2019, 1:09:03 PM PDT, 
> wrote:
>
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Re: [EVDL] The Tesla conspiracy

[Michael Ross via EV]

Musk simply broke the rules when he falsely claimed to have a buyer.  The
SEC doesn't have to be in some conspiracy to react very strongly to that
kind of public commentary. When he said that the stock price went haywire
and some people lost money reacting to it. The SEC exists at least in part
to keep companies from blabbing in this way. It was a bad move on Musk's
part and the Tesla BOD needed emit some sort of corporate governance to
stop it.

That doesn't mean there aren't more closely kept shenanigans going on.

The shorting could be what is proposed, or it could simply be people who
like shorting as a way to make money using the controversy and volatility
of Telsa to try and make money.

I also get it that Musk must wish he could raise money without having to
submit quarterly guidance about Tesla financial activities. For projects
that are very experimental, and where profitability is counter to fully
committing to research and development, quarterly guidance ends up being an
impediment. It supports ownership by people who are not really committed to
the long game. That is what give Musk a rash. Add in sleep deprivation and
you get loose lips.

SpaceX is in far better situation because it is privately held. SpaceX
ownership has a better understanding, and gets  their updates up close and
personal. SpaceX can say, "leave us alone right now we are busy," whereas
Tesla has to follow the rules for publicly traded companies. With the SEC
as the watchdog.

-Mike

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 1:37 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> What evidence of this is there?
>
> - Mark
>

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Re: [EVDL] The Tesla conspiracy

[Michael Ross via EV]

"if he wants to fill up China with Teslas"

Everyone keeps forgetting, (maybe even EM hi'self) The goal is to fill up
the globe with EVs, not necessarily Teslas. He only makes money to make
more EVs. He doesn't even enjoy much of what he's got.and risks it all the
time.  Work as home. Glad its not me.

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 12:18 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 18 Aug 2019 at 9:45, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > Diversification of politics. No question about acting up on Chinese
> > internet, can't do it.
>
> Yeah, Musk will have to fall in line, and keep his mouth and typing under
> control, if he wants to fill up China with Teslas.  So will GM, Ford, and
> Toyota, if they want to make money there.
>
> It's the proverbial 2-edged sword.  EVs are fairly likely to succeed in
> China because the government there wants them, to clean up their killer
> air,
> and you don't mess around with Xi Jinping.  But also, you don't mess
> around
> with Xi Jinping.  And big brother is watching.
>
> Musk and Barra had better get used to it; that seems to be the way the
> rest
> of the world is headed, too.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] The Tesla conspiracy

[Michael Ross via EV]

I see the naming slipping - Gigafactory in Nevada means a battery plant. In
Shanghai it is an automobile manufacturing facility.

Yes, Telsa is very sharp working in China, as long as they don't get
nationalized. Musk is true to his word wanting to keep EVs rolling along.
He will go all in as many times as necessary if history is any indication.
And apparently location is fully open as well. Diversification of politics.
No question about acting up on Chinese internet, can't do it.

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 3:23 AM John Blair via EV  wrote:

> David,
>
> Here is what Gigafactory 3 in China looked like on August 3rd:
>
>
> https://insideevs.com/news/363439/tesla-gigafactory-3-progress-august-3-2019/
> <
> https://insideevs.com/news/363439/tesla-gigafactory-3-progress-august-3-2019/
> >
>
> It is pretty far along and last I heard, machinery is being installed
> inside:
>
> "Within five months, Tesla  should be
> producing and selling the Tesla Model 3 <
> https://insideevs.com/tesla/model-3/> from this factory.” (from the
> article).
>
> John
> John Blair
>
>
> > On Aug 17, 2019, at 11:21 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org > wrote:
> >
> > But then there's that factory that Tesla wants to build in Shanghai.  I
> > haven't heard much about that lately; anyone know where it stands?
> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] The Tesla conspiracy

[Michael Ross via EV]

"It also didn't hurt that Tesla had a billionaire EV enthusiast behind
them."

There's an understatement. Nothing was going to happen without Musk
and Straubel. And there was no billionair-ness when they started. Despite
the unlikeliness of success that still surrounds it, the most important
part and  certain success of Tesla is in a factory near Reno, Nevada. Let's
hope that doesn't disappear even if the EV business languishes.

I wish Tesla would go private somehow. The quarterly earnings business of
the stock market definitely handicaps projects that take a long time to pay
off. Besos makes it happen in house. He considers a 7 year development
timeline to be a protective moat, and it works. He can go full steam ahead
on pie-in-the-sky stuff and when they pull it off the lead time they have
against competition is insurmountable.

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 2:16 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> Anyone who says "there's no stopping it" or "there's no going back" hasn't
> been paying attention to politics and business.  :-(
>
> Of course Tesla makes good cars; they got to start with a blank slate, not
> a
> century of hidebound tradition.  Is there any other production EV that's
> 100% new?   Maybe I've missed one, but AFAIK every other production EV
> uses
> at least some bits of previous ICEVs.  Most are really just EPTO (Electric
> PowerTrain Option) ICEVs -- that is, factory conversions.  The Nissan Leaf
> is mostly a Versa; its cousin the Renault Zoe is mostly a Clio.
>
> It also didn't hurt that Tesla had a billionaire EV enthusiast behind them.
>
> Of course the oil and auto companies don't want Tesla to succeed.  Of
> course
> they're going to do everything legal, and some things that aren't, to
> destroy Tesla.  (See Tucker for another example of their efforts.)
>  That's
> not a conspiracy, it's just business as usual.  It's what they do.
>
> A few comments about the production.  Has nobody ever told these guys
> about
> B-roll?  The constant jump cuts are really annoying and distracting.
> That's
> hack work.  Authenticity does not require incompetence, and incompetence
> does not imply authenticity.
>
> If they'd work from a script or at least  notes, instead of winging it,
> they
> might not need so many of those shoddy edits.
>
> Better yet, they should just WRITE something and post it.  This video clip
> has no reason to exist.  It's a waste of bandwidth.  It doesn't present
> anything visually that really helps get their message across.  I could
> have
> gotten the same information in 1/3 the time by  reading a blog post
> instead
> of sitting through their unprepared, unrehearsed prattle.
>
> At least they don't ramble as badly as Rickard does.  He's completely
> unwatchable.
>
> OK, I'll yield the soapbox to someone else now.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] Farm EVs & PV-powered auton e-bot planter, weeder swarms> ag e-transition= e-revolution

[Michael Ross via EV]

Bob, You are right that is a very interesting article.Thanks for bumping it
up in my mind.

http://www.impactlab.net/2019/08/03/electric-powered-farm-vehicles-set-to-revolutionise-agriculture-sector/


On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 8:23 PM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> When I actually looked at the article, I was impressed.  The point was that
> there are all kinds of all-field applications that do not require the big
> behemoth tractor, but the current farmer still drives the big monster
> tractor when a robot with wheels not much bigger than fat bike tires can do
> a lot of the weeding, seeding, and inspection and trimming and whatever
> ALl without needing an air conditioned cab and driver
>
> That was a real eye opener.  Bob
>
>
> --
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Re: [EVDL] Farm EVs & PV-powered auton e-bot planter, weeder swarms> ag e-transition= e-revolution

[Michael Ross via EV]

Nothing about EVs is all that economical - today. The tech is new. The EV
economies of scale are a fraction of what exists - today. The
Infrastructure to provide large scale, stationary or mobile charging is not
there - today. To be sure the battery weight issue is easier to to solve
with a lot of ag equipment (exclude low ground pressure applications
perhaps). Farming is all about logistics, so field swapping packs is just a
thing.

I don't know how old you are, but "Ain't gonna happen in MY lifetime!"
sounds hyperbolic to me.


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On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 5:37 PM Jan Steinman via EV 
wrote:

> > From: Michael Ross 
> >
> > We already do battery swaps with fork lifts -  like forever...
> >
> > Seems like the day long use is surmountable.
>
> But economically?
>
> Fork lifts are an order of magnitude less powerful and less expensive.
>
> You'd need a half-dozen pack swaps to get through a 12-hour day. These are
> going to be ~600 kWh packs for a ~400 hp tractor!
>
> Doesn't that about quadruple the total cost of already-expensive machinery?
>
> I'm not saying it's impossible. But it's going to be a huge challenge.
>
> One thing's for sure: with 600 kWh packs, the days of wheel weights and
> calcium in the tires would be over. :-)
>
> Jan
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Farm EVs & PV-powered auton e-bot planter, weeder swarms> ag e-transition= e-revolution

[Michael Ross via EV]

We already do battery swaps with fork lifts -  like forever.

Tesla demo'd a swap that was the same time as half a tank fill up on a car.

Seems like the day long use is surmountable.


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On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 2:16 PM Jan Steinman via EV 
wrote:

> On 2019-08-04, at 03:07, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
> >
> > One of the challenges facing
> > development of electric farm vehicles is the need for sufficient stored
> > energy to run a large vehicle for a full day on a single charge.
>
> There's the rub, isn't it? The article doesn't really address that at all.
>
> Fully electric agriculture is going to be a tough nut to crack. Sure,
> "gators" and light-duty equipment might go electric, but pulling a
> six-bottom plough through clay soil for twelve hours? Ain't gonna happen in
> MY lifetime!
>
> Jan
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla drops cheapest models prices (v)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Dave,

You seem to have a strong urge to rag on Tesla and Musk whenever you can.
That seems unwarranted. They have done a lot in an incredibly difficult
industrial environment, working at something no one believed possible, and
actually have a lot of success, though they may yet fail. We will all
benefit from their efforts. They tried to implement new ideas that were
worth trying.  Musk and all the engineers and other employees deserve
praise, regardless if Musk acts stupid at times. Maybe you don't like the
PT Barnum stuff, but that too was helpful and perhaps necessary.


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On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 10:21 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 21 Jul 2019 at 8:35, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> > Tesla also lowered the starting price of its mass-market Model 3 to
> $38,990
>
> Uh ... so what  happened to that $30k electric car we heard Musk talk
> about
> for all those years?  It seems to have tipped off the road into the same
> ditch as the electric Chevette that GM promised us in 1978.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Michael Ross via EV]

There was a time when solar thermal and its 70% efficiency made sense,
because PV cost too much.  But that time has passed.

I think that PV is now better than solar thermal. There are a lot of hidden
costs and difficulties putting a thermal collector on one's roof. There is
a bunch of piping that not everyone wants to be obvious or cobbled looking.
You have to poke holes into your attic and elsewhere. It needs to be
insulated and to not break in the winter.  You have to have pumps and
valves and drains. You need a special water heater, and it needs electric
backup anyway. You have to own ladders and be able to work safely with
them. You have to be more than just a little handy. There are HOA and
building quality requirements for proper design and installation. It takes
up space where PV could go.

Or you can mount a few relativity inexpensive arrays and wire them up.
There is of course where to put the wire. Much easier to do a neat and tidy
job, no leaks through the roof, no fancy heater with a heat exchanger.

The business of building and installing solar thermal collectors is just
about done in because of the constantly falling cost of PV.  Solar thermal
ends up more complicated, expensive, and has more opportunity for error.

I thought Robert's solutions were attractive. I provided certified and
custom testing for solar thermal collectors for 5 years. I am handy enough,
but I would go with PV, not thermal. Far too much trouble the thermal
business.

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:51 PM Jan Steinman via EV 
wrote:

> > From: Robert Bruninga 
> >
> > … using about 4 Solar panels
> > for the bottom coil in a water heater are a good  idea.  You need hot
> water
> > every day, and so this gives you 100% effectiveness of these 4 or so
> > panels.
>
> Seems like a horribly inefficient way of heating water!
>
> Direct solar hot water is a much better use of resources and solar energy.
> Someone who's handy can easily cobble one up out of copper tubing, plywood,
> glass, and some flat-black spray paint.
>
> Jan
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Duke is not going to stop residential power generation, just discourage it.
it would be a PR nightmare for them here.

The cost of power is quite low at $0.11 per kWh. They do have a base
connection service cost that I pay even if I break even on the give and
take, it is about 200kWh x $0.11 =  $22 a month.

Duke is completely sold on solar power, what's not to like? But only if it
is under their thumb. Various businesses build, operate and maintain these
solar plantations, not only Duke itself. Lot's of jobs there, and thus the
legislature goes along with whatever Duke says.

There is far less worry with a solar power plant than a coal or nuclear
one, though they won't say it out loud.


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On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 4:38 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 13 Jul 2019 at 12:39, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:
>
> > Virtually ~all~ utility companies require a customer who plans to
> > produce power and introduce it to their grid to have complied with
> > stringent regulations ... you will almost certainly be *charged* for
> > any excess power that you push back into the grid, rather than
> > credited for it
>
> Thanks for making that point.  I'm surprised at how the PV world continues
> to treat grid intertie as some kind of holy grail, even as the power
> companies take every opportunity to make it more difficult and expensive.
>
> At least in most parts of the US, and even in some places in Europe, the
> grid is NOT a gigantic free battery.  You PAY to use it.  And what you pay
> is not likely to decrease; quite to the contrary.
>
> We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.  The
> utilities
> imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net metering,
> which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement --
> essentially
> doing grid intertie on the sly.
>
> Then various states and localities, and some European nations, passed laws
> supporting net metering.  That's when intertie started to take off.  But
> more recently, the utilites have been buying politicians and getting the
> net
> metering laws reversed.  Guess what -- Guerrilla Solar is back.  Not that
> I'd ever do such a thing, mind you.
>
> I don't think the power companies are going to stop pushing back until
> they've effectively killed grid intertie.
>
> If I were building a PV system in the US today, I'd probably make it 100%
> off grid.  I'd feed a subpanel with it, and as I was able to expand the
> system over a period of years, I'd gradually transfer loads from utility
> power to home power.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Michael Ross via EV]

I see maybe one long duration outage (half a day?) a year that requires
tending to the refrigerator. It never lasts too long, minutes not days. Not
enough to fund a generator. If you ever go camping it is easier than that.

Lots of generators get sold around here (hurricanes are intermittent
visitors), but I think it is the human tendency to pay attention to the
negative, and fearmongering by the vendors.

If I ever decide to get a gen set it will be a used one at a time when
hurricanes seem not much trouble. So far (25 years) I have no seen any
need. The joys of underground service, and mostly tree clear, easily
repaired distribution.


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On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 8:51 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is power outage. If the grid goes down
> with net metering so does you solar.
>
> You have to be off-grid to stay powered when the grid fails.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 14, 2019, at 11:16 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > But why are you so determined to use batteies when the cost of grid power
> > is ditrt cheap.
> >
> > a 1kwh deep cycle lead acid battery might cost $100.  It will store 10
> > cents of electricity per day.
> > After one year it is SHOT.  that is $100/365 days or about 27 cents per
> > kWh.  So you are paying TRIPLE the cost of electricity just for a battery
> > compared to just getting it from the grid?  And this does not even
> mention
> > the cost of solar panels.  This is purely battery storage costs.
> >
> > Even if you find magic battteries that can do 1000 discharges before
> > replacement, that still is 10 cents per kWh storage cost and still does
> not
> > even count the cost of solar to get the energy inthe first place.
> >
> > AND, unless you do a full cycle of thebattery everyday, to use y our
> > incoming solar, then you are not fully using your array.investment.  Sure
> > you can throw away all kinds of money at this problem, but nothing
> canbeat
> > being grid-tied and a net meter.  Just do it.  Do a small system at
> > contractor prices... then add panels at your leisure and at 20% of the
> cost.
> >
> > bob
> > On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:50 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, I am proposing something simpler than a power wall - that does
> >> not feed back to the grid. Maybe that simplification doesn't reduce the
> >> cost of the battery system much, but it would reduce the legal paper
> >> work down to a normal electrical permit.
> >>
> >> Peri
> >>
> >> -- Original Message --
> >> From: "Willie via EV" 
> >> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> >> Cc: "Willie" 
> >> Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:30:58 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
>  On 7/14/19 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>  How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies
> >> 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
> >> domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe
> assumption,
> >> or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the battery is
> >> always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The battery would
> >> always be charging from a solar array, never from the grid.
> 
>  It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
> >> negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the
> solar
> >> panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.
> >>>
> >>> You have described a PowerWall.  The battery is one or more units that
> >> will supply or charge 5kw and holds 13-14kwh.  If about 11kwh will carry
> >> you over night and if you don't use more than 5kw over night, a single
> >> battery unit will serve you.  With good sun, day time self power use
> can be
> >> around 20kw, including car charging.
> >>>
> >>> In 5 or so months, I have bought less than 10kwh from my utility and
> sold
> >> them something like 10,000 kwh.  That is with one battery unit.
> >>>
> >>> Cost installed was about $13k.  For smooth operation, I am highly
> >> dependent on the utility to accept my excess power.
> >>>
> >>> ___
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> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >>>
> >>
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> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Thank you Bob. That was very succinct.

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On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:22 AM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> That is why batteries TRIPLE the cost compared to a grid system and also
> require summer/winter life style changes:
> 1) As you say, when the batteries are full, all your solar investment is
> doing *nothing*
> 2) In order to have power on cloudy days, you have to oversize the
> batteries 3 to 5 times a day's capacity
> 3) Combine #1 and #2 and your solar is spending 1/3rd of most days doing
> *nothing*
> 4) You cannot store in batteries the 2X more energy you get in the summer
> for use later in the winter
> 5) So, you either throw away half of your solar production in the summer
> and live a tolerable winter life style
> 6) Or you invest for your summer lifestyle and then just survive the winter
> with half power.
>
> Battery storage when you have the grid (net meter)  is simply not
> economically practical in any way whatsoever.
> (Unless you get free batteries and are willling to maintain them for the
> rest of your life)...
>
> Bob
> Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:06 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies
> > 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
> > domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe
> > assumption, or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the
> > battery is always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The
> > battery would always be charging from a solar array, never from the
> > grid.
> >
> > It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
> > negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the
> > solar panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> > Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
> > Sent: 14-Jul-19 4:54:09 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
> >
> > >For what it is worth... For off grid or backup power,.I have some 500W
> and
> > >2500W 120 VAC to 240VAC transformers.  Great for stepping up a single
> > phase
> > >120v generator to 240 VAC for a well pump or other emergency power
> needs.
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/d/glen-burnie-v-transformers/6928546512.html
> > >
> > >$30. Baltimore area.  Will not ship.
> > >
> > >On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 12:40 AM Michael Ross via EV  >
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >>  I get all that because I have panels and a net metering plan with
> Duke
> > >>  Power. As I said it depends on whether your utility supports what you
> > want
> > >>  to do. Clearly, YMMV.
> > >>
> > >>  I personally could do exactly as I described.  If I had an EV that
> > needed
> > >>  charging regularly, I could put up a ground based array of
> > microinverter
> > >>  120VAC output arrays, and add to them pretty much at will. If I over
> > >>  produced then Duke would bank it. In the billing month that contains
> > May 31
> > >>  they would zero out any bank I had developed. I could live with that.
> > >>
> > >>  <
> > >>
> >
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
> > >>  >
> > >>  Virus-free.
> > >>  www.avg.com
> > >>  <
> > >>
> >
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
> > >>  >
> > >>  <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> > >>
> > >>  On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 7:06 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > >>  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>  >  >>We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.
> The
> > >>  > utilities
> > >>  > imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net
> > metering,
> > >>  > which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement -

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

I get all that because I have panels and a net metering plan with Duke
Power. As I said it depends on whether your utility supports what you want
to do. Clearly, YMMV.

I personally could do exactly as I described.  If I had an EV that needed
charging regularly, I could put up a ground based array of microinverter
120VAC output arrays, and add to them pretty much at will. If I over
produced then Duke would bank it. In the billing month that contains May 31
they would zero out any bank I had developed. I could live with that.


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On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 7:06 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV 
wrote:

>  >>We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.  The
> utilities
> imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net metering,
> which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement -- essentially
> doing grid intertie on the sly.
>
> This is veering around and nearly clipping the Off-Topic guardrails,
> but because you brought it up:
>
> At least one to-be-left-unnamed EV driver and solar enthusiast was
> guilty of participating in that clandestine program:
>
> http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/gsolar.pdf
>
> And here's what happens when the utility figures it out:
>
> http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/Amnesty_for_Solar_Guerrillas.pdf
>
> (see lower right of first page, and upper left of second)
>
> I, er this guy, got off easy, they could just as easily sic'ed the
> County permit and inspection authority on me, uh, him, threatened
> utility power disconnect, or applied other punitive sanctions such as
> a retroactive energy charge of their own estimation. In the end , all
> the utility wanted was to stop being annoyed by the alarms and alerts
> in the new software program that they were running to administer the
> smart meter program for 79,000 customers.
>
> Before I go, R.I.P. to friends Richard and Karen Perez, and goodbye
> to Home Power Magazine, which ceased publication in October of 2018.
>
> 
> Drink This Before Bed, Watch Your Body Fat Melt Like Crazy
> Diet Insider
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5d2a63e484ff63da646est01vuc
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

It seems like I am being misunderstood. You can buy solar arrays each with
its own MPP and inverter to produce 120VAC. You can buy one and add more
over time with out consideration of string balancing and such.

You can tie them to the grid, and if your rate plan us good then you will
be offsetting the cost of charging your EV with whatever the present size
of your microinverter solar arrays is.


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On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 1:23 AM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > No, just because it produces 60 Hz AC does not make it a Microinverter.
> > Anyone can make an inverter,  They are dirt cheap from 1kw to 3 kW and
> only
> > cost about 15 cents a watt!  You can buy a 2 kW "inverter" for not much
> > more than $300.  But that does not make it a Grid-Tie microinverer.
> >
> > A grid tie microinverter is a CURRENT SOURCE that pushes current against
> an
> > existing waveform  It has to have an infinite load (the grid) or the
> > voltage will soar out of sight if the load goes down.  That is what
> current
> > sources do.  Fundamental EE.
>
> Bob is right. People are being a bit loose with their definitions.
>
> A "microinverter" is just a small inverter. There are zillions of these.
>
> A normal inverter is one whose control circuits make it behave like a
> voltage source. The inverter sets the output voltage and frequency at
> (say 120vac 60hz). The load then draws whatever current it needs, from 0
> to the max power the inverter can handle. The inverter does its best to
> hold the voltage at 120vac while supplying that current.
>
> A "grid tie" inverter is an inverter whose control circuits make it
> behave like a current source. The *grid* sets the voltage and frequency;
> the inverter just delivers its current. Without a grid, such an inverter
> won't work.
>
> The power section of an inverter is the same, regardless of what type it
> is. The differences are in the control circuitry. Generally, the power
> section costs all the money. The control circuitry is cheap in comparison.
>
> > Sure, one can design a box that can do both,  But that is a complex
> > internal circuitry that does either one or the other, but they are
> totally
> > different circuits...
>
> Well, nowdays it's just a one-chip microcomputer that costs a few
> dollars; no matter what kind of inverter you're building.
>
> --
> In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
> errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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>

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Grid tie is the most sensible storage medium that we have.


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On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 7:15 PM Robert Bruninga  wrote:

> Microinverters will not work without a grid
> bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 6:57 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: Michael Ross 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?
>
> I haven't looked closely at this, but panels with on board micro-inverters
> are nice because you can buy one now, buy another one later, etc., until
> you have the kW you want. They output 120VAC.  Seems like a good way to
> support an EV, or at least cover some of the charging with solar.
>
> I suspect that trying to have home EV charging all from solar, is the same
> problem as running a home with all solar - it really drives up cost
> planning for peak demand, and dealing with cloudy days - fi you are going
> to store a large excess that is going to be a a lot of batteries. It makes
> a grid tied system the economically pleasing choice. You can grid tie
> micro-inverter panels.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 4:18 PM Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Yes, But of course, solar can only charge the EV during the day.  The
> > simplistic approach using off-the shelf components would need a
> > minimum of
> > 2 kW of solar panels (8 or more) to be sure tha most solar days could
> > produce the absolute minimum of 1.5 kW which is the minimum standard
> > 120v EV charge cord.
> >
> > But then you have to go from the DC solar panels at 30v or so to the
> > 120 VAC needed by the standard charge cord.  To do that, you need a DC
> > solar battery charge regulator, then a small 24 volt battery (to
> > smooth the
> > energy) to drive a 2 kW 24votl AC inverter.  Then you plug the car
> > charger into that.
> >
> > And you have to have a low-voltage cutout circuit so you don't run the
> > 24v battery down when the clouds come oue, etc...
> >
> > So as you can see, it is a kludge of off-the-shelf items because no
> > one has yet built a consumer device to take direct Solar DC and handle
> > all these functions to deliver stable power to the car.
> >
> > If that property has the grid to it, it makes no sense to ever
> > consider going off grid.  Because with a net meter you have 100% free
> > solar storage.  And for a remote vacation property that is only
> > occupied say 10% of the time, then  you only need 10% of the solar
> > panels because those 10% can be storing months worth of power in the
> > grid (via the net meter) that is available to your instantly anytime you
> visit the house.
> >
> > Off grid makes zero economic sense if the grid is available.  But if
> > the grid is not available, then off-grid is the only way to go, BUT
> > the solar array has to be X times bigger to accommodate the full power
> > needed in the single worst day need.  Where as with grid tie, a much
> > smaller set of panels can be stroing a yeaers worth of sunshine in the
> > grid for free that you can draw out at any time and at ANY rate... Up
> > to the maximum capacity of the grid-to-the-house.
> >
> > Bob, WB4aPR
> > Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV  On Behalf Of Mark Laity-Snyder
> > via EV
> > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 3:55 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> > Cc: Mark Laity-Snyder 
> > Subject: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Would it be possible to hook a small solar panel system to an EV and
> > use the EV as the battery storage for an off grid solar system?  What
> > would be needed to make that happen?  I envision solar panels
> > connected to microinverters which would 

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Micro-inverters. Yes, grid tie is best. And most economical and completely
normal. That is true for residential solar generally,  most homes will
benefit from grid tie. So no problem.

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 7:21 PM jim via EV  wrote:

>  Microinverters that are currentlly available require grid tie to
> function, or some source of good AC to feed into.  My garage and shop
> system is off grid and charges the Leaf in addition to running other stuff,
> but it has a seperate 1500 amp hour 24 volt battery that is charged by
> solar and wind.  I can charge the Leaf at up to 4 kw due to the size of my
> inverter.  There is currently no simple way to do what you are thinking of.
> Jim Erdman, in Western Wisconsin
> SNIP

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