Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Don't forget. What you get from the solar panels is gravy. You battery pack is the reservoir. Stella which is very efficient can go 40 mph on just the solar array under perfect conditions. You take what you can get and if it's not enough just use J1772. You will be driving under all conditions. If I was really far thinking I'd throw up a sail, add pedals or find a way to tap geothermalthat said I am using the easiest way to collectbut a stationary wind energy collector has been done and in some areas much better than solar. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/07de66dc/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Michael Ross via EV wrote: A sail is impractical, unmanageable, a very good way to tip over with out a keel or daggerboard. Pedaling adds almost nothing as most of us have a hard time producing 100Watts continuously. So called small wind energy is a money pit with no real payback Geothermal is costly because you can't drill a deep hole just anywhere and it costs a lot All true. But, there are special cases. Just to play devil's advocate: If you *are* getting power for a boat, then PV on the sail *does* make some sense. You have an enormous amount of area on those sails. I've seen small PV arrays on sailboats, but haven't seen a Yankee Clipper solar-powered racing sailboat yet. Possible? Pedaling certainly works if the vehicle is very small. Joel Davidson commuted regularly on a 3-wheel recumbent trike with a 2' x 4' PV panel for a roof. Small wind power works just fine for locations where you just don't have the room for PV, or have problems with things like snow. It can also be very cheap if done right (we have this modern propensity to vastly over-complicate everything). Remember that millions of of farmers successfully used windmills for decades before rural electrification. Geothermal is easy if you happen to be next to a river or lake. Or, I went to school in Michigan's Keewanaw peninsula. There are hundreds of abandoned mines left over from the copper mining boom times. So there are buildings that get their heating and cooling simply by ducting in the air from some old mine shaft or air vent. It's 68 deg.F year round! Also, on PV for vehicles. I've wondered why they haven't built a commuter train with PV panels on the roof. Rail has such low rolling resistance and such a huge amount of roof area that I'll bet you could make a considerable amount of your power with PV. If I wanted to set a land speed record for a purely solar powered vehicle, I'd build a solar car that ran on rails! Don't take these as serious suggestions for widespread use. But they *are* examples of special case solutions that might be useful in certain circumstances. :-) -- Sometimes when you innovate, you make mistakes. It is best to admit them quickly and get on with improving your other innovations. (Steve Jobs) -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Getting a bit OT, but I'll chime in on hydro. As has been discussed before, one of the big issues with people putting in their own PV systems or wind is that they cause a less consistent demand from the grid. We are seeing some power companies backlash by imposing a surcharge on those persons who take the bold steps of reducing their grid dependency. One of the advantages of hydro power is that energy production can be ramped up and down relatively quickly compared to coal and nuclear. It's true that we've already tapped essentially all good hydro power locations. But we've only put in a fraction of pumped storage. Pumped storage can be built as lakes or done underground in, say, abandoned coal mines. With pumped storage, existing power companies could meet their peak demands without building more expensive and polluting plants. Is there a way we can encourage power companies to build pumped storage instead of more coal, nuke, or gas turbine plants? One way is to show the power companies that its cheaper to build pumped storage than to build new traditional power plants. According to EIA http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/capitalcost/pdf/updated_capcost.pdf its is cheaper up front to build pumped storage than nuclear. It is also cheaper than building a coal plant that provides carbon sequestering. Thus, if the power companies were to continue to charge the same rate for electricity from pumped storage, they are making a better ROI than from building out new traditional power plants. In effect, the people installing PV and other systems are doing the power companies a favor! Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-Mar-15 11:37:52 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. On Mar 31, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So called small wind energy is a money pit with no real payback - you need an exceptional location for a small turbine to be worth the effort. Wind and hydro are just diluted forms of solar. On a planetary scale, they can't even begin to compete with solar photovoltaics. However, there are certain microclimates where the landscape concentrates either wind or hydro in such a way that either can be a superlative local source of energy -- especially if the Sun tends to hide in those same climates. Both are, ultimately, niche players...but they can be potentially indispensable in their relative niches. Again however...the hydro niches are long since already developed, and the wind niches are mostly certain coastal regions and high mountain passes. Another interesting potential good use of wind is cropland...a single individual turbine won't necessarily have impressive generating capacities, but really big numbers of them can be put in in a way that doesn't interfere with growing crops and, in so doing, significantly increase the economic productivity of the land for the farmers. Residential wind power makes sense for a few people, but only a very few people. (And it really does make all kinds of sense for certain people...just not for most.) Rooftop solar, on the other hand, is economically viable basically everywhere, including the Pacific Northwest. It's more profitable in some places than others, but it's profitable everywhere (with a few footnotes, of course). b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Lee, I would disagree that small wind power works well. There are no reliable efficient small wind turbines (which is why the companies that make them keep going out of business). We had the best of the recent ones a 2.4kW Skystream at my work, but Skystream is out of business - failed. We also had a Mariah Power vertical that was a total piece of junk thought they were trying hard. At NREL they were testing them in real bill paying wind and they fell apart and never passed the testing. The bottom line is it costs too much to put one up, and because you can't put up a tall tower most populated places you can't get any wind on them. A tall tower costs. Re geothermal, I was talking about making power not delivering space heat. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Michael Ross via EV wrote: A sail is impractical, unmanageable, a very good way to tip over with out a keel or daggerboard. Pedaling adds almost nothing as most of us have a hard time producing 100Watts continuously. So called small wind energy is a money pit with no real payback Geothermal is costly because you can't drill a deep hole just anywhere and it costs a lot All true. But, there are special cases. Just to play devil's advocate: If you *are* getting power for a boat, then PV on the sail *does* make some sense. You have an enormous amount of area on those sails. I've seen small PV arrays on sailboats, but haven't seen a Yankee Clipper solar-powered racing sailboat yet. Possible? Pedaling certainly works if the vehicle is very small. Joel Davidson commuted regularly on a 3-wheel recumbent trike with a 2' x 4' PV panel for a roof. Small wind power works just fine for locations where you just don't have the room for PV, or have problems with things like snow. It can also be very cheap if done right (we have this modern propensity to vastly over-complicate everything). Remember that millions of of farmers successfully used windmills for decades before rural electrification. Geothermal is easy if you happen to be next to a river or lake. Or, I went to school in Michigan's Keewanaw peninsula. There are hundreds of abandoned mines left over from the copper mining boom times. So there are buildings that get their heating and cooling simply by ducting in the air from some old mine shaft or air vent. It's 68 deg.F year round! Also, on PV for vehicles. I've wondered why they haven't built a commuter train with PV panels on the roof. Rail has such low rolling resistance and such a huge amount of roof area that I'll bet you could make a considerable amount of your power with PV. If I wanted to set a land speed record for a purely solar powered vehicle, I'd build a solar car that ran on rails! Don't take these as serious suggestions for widespread use. But they *are* examples of special case solutions that might be useful in certain circumstances. :-) -- Sometimes when you innovate, you make mistakes. It is best to admit them quickly and get on with improving your other innovations. (Steve Jobs) -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/4efb885c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 31, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So called small wind energy is a money pit with no real payback - you need an exceptional location for a small turbine to be worth the effort. Wind and hydro are just diluted forms of solar. On a planetary scale, they can't even begin to compete with solar photovoltaics. However, there are certain microclimates where the landscape concentrates either wind or hydro in such a way that either can be a superlative local source of energy -- especially if the Sun tends to hide in those same climates. Both are, ultimately, niche players...but they can be potentially indispensable in their relative niches. Again however...the hydro niches are long since already developed, and the wind niches are mostly certain coastal regions and high mountain passes. Another interesting potential good use of wind is cropland...a single individual turbine won't necessarily have impressive generating capacities, but really big numbers of them can be put in in a way that doesn't interfere with growing crops and, in so doing, significantly increase the economic productivity of the land for the farmers. Residential wind power makes sense for a few people, but only a very few people. (And it really does make all kinds of sense for certain people...just not for most.) Rooftop solar, on the other hand, is economically viable basically everywhere, including the Pacific Northwest. It's more profitable in some places than others, but it's profitable everywhere (with a few footnotes, of course). b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Ben, if you can install enough batteries, as I believe you have, to go completely off the grid, then of course there's no advantage to the power company. But, for most people, batteries in general can provide leveling to the power company but not sustained power. That is, the power company can use the batteries to smooth out spikes and dips but cannot use them (nor would I want my battery used that way) to provide sustained power. Sustained power must come from the power company. Where you live, Ben, you don't need to worry about a string of 10 cloudy dark days where solar PVs will be next to worthless. Much of the rest of the country does have down times and will likely continue to rely on the grid to cover those periods. Many don't even have the space to install a battery if they wanted to. So, the power companies must have the capacity to supply power through such periods. My claim is the power companies stand to make more profit if they build pumped storage instead of coal or nukes. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com To: Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-Mar-15 12:24:47 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Thus, if the power companies were to continue to charge the same rate for electricity from pumped storage, they are making a better ROI than from building out new traditional power plants. Your analysis passes the sniff test for me from previous experience...but, in a similar vein, the _real_ competition is from rooftop solar and batteries of the type we're being told will be in the Chevy B-as-in-what-a-clueless-marketing-department Bolt and that Tesla is strongly hinting at will soon be coming from their Gigafactory. With that, the grid ostensibly gets the leveling effect the power companies want...but at the cost of losing a customer who now no longer has any need for the grid at all. My own utility, Salt River Project, just shot itself in the foot that way. People like me with existing solar installations are grandfathered for at least a couple decades -- but not if we sell the house. Everybody else...will be paying almost as much as they'd be paying without solar thanks to their new rate structure. They missed the boat. They've bought a brief window of time between now and the time of cheap batteries. They _could_ have embraced the change and become the leading installer (and maintainer and financier!) of rooftop solar as well as home batteries (sell it for the benefits of the homeowner, profit from a claim on so much power it stores at the utility's whim). Instead, they've signed their own corporate suicide pact. Once batteries *do* get cheap -- and they will very soon -- for those with capital to invest it'll be cheaper to drop off the grid entirely rather than stay connected. For new construction, solar with a battery is already cheaper than grid connect fees. And, every customer they so lose...well, the money they used to be getting from that customer now has to get spread across the remaining customers, with their rates exponentially increasing as it becomes more and more profitable for more and more people to drop off the grid. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Thus, if the power companies were to continue to charge the same rate for electricity from pumped storage, they are making a better ROI than from building out new traditional power plants. Your analysis passes the sniff test for me from previous experience...but, in a similar vein, the _real_ competition is from rooftop solar and batteries of the type we're being told will be in the Chevy B-as-in-what-a-clueless-marketing-department Bolt and that Tesla is strongly hinting at will soon be coming from their Gigafactory. With that, the grid ostensibly gets the leveling effect the power companies want...but at the cost of losing a customer who now no longer has any need for the grid at all. My own utility, Salt River Project, just shot itself in the foot that way. People like me with existing solar installations are grandfathered for at least a couple decades -- but not if we sell the house. Everybody else...will be paying almost as much as they'd be paying without solar thanks to their new rate structure. They missed the boat. They've bought a brief window of time between now and the time of cheap batteries. They _could_ have embraced the change and become the leading installer (and maintainer and financier!) of rooftop solar as well as home batteries (sell it for the benefits of the homeowner, profit from a claim on so much power it stores at the utility's whim). Instead, they've signed their own corporate suicide pact. Once batteries *do* get cheap -- and they will very soon -- for those with capital to invest it'll be cheaper to drop off the grid entirely rather than stay connected. For new construction, solar with a battery is already cheaper than grid connect fees. And, every customer they so lose...well, the money they used to be getting from that customer now has to get spread across the remaining customers, with their rates exponentially increasing as it becomes more and more profitable for more and more people to drop off the grid. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
A sail is impractical, unmanageable, a very good way to tip over with out a keel or daggerboard. Please do not try this. Pedaling adds almost nothing as most of us have a hard time producing 100Watts continuously. Although it is good for you. You may notice that wind energy is only very high up, and to get ROI you need a large scale. So called small wind energy is a money pit with no real payback - you need an exceptional location for a small turbine to be worth the effort. Geothermal is costly because you can't drill a deep hole just anywhere and it costs a lot, then you have to deal with the difficult chemicals that come up with the steam (arsenic for example). This is not a great choice for domestic production. Industrial or neighborhood scale maybe. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:57 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Don't forget. What you get from the solar panels is gravy. You battery pack is the reservoir. Stella which is very efficient can go 40 mph on just the solar array under perfect conditions. You take what you can get and if it's not enough just use J1772. You will be driving under all conditions. If I was really far thinking I'd throw up a sail, add pedals or find a way to tap geothermalthat said I am using the easiest way to collectbut a stationary wind energy collector has been done and in some areas much better than solar. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/07de66dc/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/e140d7b9/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org the hydro niches are long since already developed Without arguing with your main point that PV is the largest market, I think your statement is not true and unfair to those who do have microhydro potential. Relatively small streams can generate household amounts of power. I built a weir and did a flow test on the seasonal stream behind us, and I estimate it could generate close to 20 kW, November through March. That's 72 Megawatt-hours annually. That's enough for all the electricity needs, including some electric baseboard heat, for over two households -- hardly an amount to neglect! Micro-hydro remains the most economical, trouble-free way for anyone with a stream and 100+ feet of head to obtain electric power. Granted, only a small minority meet those specifications, but I would submit that most of those are undeveloped. Nature has optimized the best way to optimize solar energy for maximum power through photosynthesis. -- Mary Logan Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ben, if you can install enough batteries, as I believe you have, to go completely off the grid, then of course there's no advantage to the power company. I don't have batteries yet and no plans to install them until the finances tip sufficiently...considering I'm grandfathered with respect to SRP's new exorbitant solar-killing rate plan, that'll be some years. But, for most people, batteries in general can provide leveling to the power company but not sustained power. This is indeed the use case I believe Tesla has in mind for their initial markets. Buy their batteries even if you don't have onsite generation; fill the batteries off peak when electricity is cheap and drain them on peak when electricity is expensive. Depending on how the math works out, you could see the capital expense repaid in short order with pure profits afterwards. And it'll dramatically increase the market for such batteries, driving down prices and all the rest. Where you live, Ben, you don't need to worry about a string of 10 cloudy dark days where solar PVs will be next to worthless. Many places as dire as you describe also have provisions for home heating oil or natural gas other energy inputs that could trivially be adapted to power a generator for a while. And, until batteries get big and cheap enough, it'll likely make sense even here in Arizona to have a small generator to tide over a couple days of winter weather now and again. As a bonus...such a generator really can be minimal. It doesn't need to meet peak demands, but only average demands and let the batteries handle the peaks. My claim is the power companies stand to make more profit if they build pumped storage instead of coal or nukes. I strongly suspect you're right. But *my* claim is that at least some individuals (and companies like SolarCity) already today stand to make more profit with rooftop solar and batteries than with anything the utilities can offer, and that the number of such individuals will climb rapidly as battery prices fall until, eventually, nobody's left who wants to by _any_ power the utility might want to sell -- pumped storage or no. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 31, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Micro-hydro remains the most economical, trouble-free way for anyone with a stream and 100+ feet of head to obtain electric power. Granted, only a small minority meet those specifications, but I would submit that most of those are undeveloped. I wouldn't challenge you on that. I'd just suggest that that's about as niche as niche gets b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
I had some brain storms with the placement of solar panels. In a sedan simply cover the back of the back seats in panels. Cover the dash, hood, top and trunk. In a fastback/hatchback like lets say an Aspire make a cover for the trunk out of solar panels. Virtually the whole square footage of the car can contain panels. The car would still be visually safe. Not sure how much loss you get through windows. To get the power you need maybe a solar trailer with 2kw of panels for a total of maybe 3kw. Now you are talking some real power. Maybe enough to cruise at 25 or 30 mph and not touch the pack. I did some calculations on Dave Clouds Dolphin. It has with near 2000 pounds of batteries a 36kw pack. The car he somehow got down to under 1200 pounds. I bet if he simply put in a Nissan Leaf pack with the loss of Perkuet he might get more than 200 mile range with the 24kw pack. Not sure I can calculate it. Any how maybe the secret of solar vehicles for us hobbyists is trailing the panels you need to make it work. If nothing else it gives me an idea for a solar RV. Use the trailer to also house a fold able RV/cargo space. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/4b157b41/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
We were talking about this a week or two ago. Lawrence will be plugging in, but he is optimistic that this can be minimized. I think he is in the Bay area though, so clouds may be an issue. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Mar 30, 2015, at 12:19 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It is simple: measure the surface area of the car and multiply by the expected PV efficiency, then you know why a Solar Racer needs full sun overhead most of the day *and* be an extreme car to achieve any speed or range. ...and it's worse than even that. The angle from the Sun to the panels matters a great deal. A panel at right angles to the incoming light receives the maximum amount of energy; a panel parallel to the light receives zero energy. You don't have much choice about the angles the panels of a car make with the light. Fixed panels, on the other hand, can either be statically positioned for an optimum annual average production or, if money isn't an object and space is at a premium, you can dynamically tilt the panels to follow the Sun. For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a flat top parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on the pathological for aerodynamics. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/b9aac28f/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
BTW, that was one of the reasons I saw people switch to electric motorcycle / big scooter type vehicle so it is accepted that it gets rolled onto the curb and parked against the wall next to a garage, so you can sneak out an extension cord from the garage to charge the bike, the only way of curb-side charging without tripping danger or the need to dangle a cord from a tree, which will likely invoke other responses. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 1:14 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. Most of California has almost all days sun, but he lives in SF, so clouds (the famous fog) is more an issue but inside the city the shade from buildings and trees is certainly a factor *and* the fact that you do not only want to drive while the sun is overhead. There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short drives) and can be parked in full sun (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can gain charge over time, about 5 hours (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh harvested each day. So, if you have a Leaf and drive it 1 or 2 times per week, such an arrangement can work. Anything that is a daily driver for more than what you could walk or bike and which gets parked in whatever spot available (be picky and you can’t park at all in SF) and in real-life environment and you won’t be able to use it 4 out of 5 times, I am afraid, so unless you normally always plug it (again – a difficult proposition with mostly curb-side parking in SF) there is not much utility from an EV there… Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info http://www.cvandewater.info www.proxim.com http://www.proxim.com/ This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:41 PM To: Ben Goren; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Cc: Cor van de Water Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. We were talking about this a week or two ago. Lawrence will be plugging in, but he is optimistic that this can be minimized. I think he is in the Bay area though, so clouds may be an issue. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Mar 30, 2015, at 12:19 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It is simple: measure the surface area of the car and multiply by the expected PV efficiency, then you know why a Solar Racer needs full sun overhead most of the day *and* be an extreme car to achieve any speed or range. ...and it's worse than even that. The angle from the Sun to the panels matters a great deal. A panel at right angles to the incoming light receives the maximum amount of energy; a panel parallel to the light receives zero energy. You don't have much choice about the angles the panels of a car make with the light. Fixed panels, on the other hand, can either be statically positioned for an optimum annual average production or, if money isn't an object and space is at a premium, you can dynamically tilt the panels to follow the Sun. For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a flat top parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on the pathological for aerodynamics. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. Warren Buffet Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Well, it might make sense for the special-case commute where your pack isn't large enough to make a round trip but, with solar panels charging during the day, you top off enough to get home. Solves the can't-plug-in-at-work problem too. In fact, you seek the un-coveted parking space that gets maximum sun while everyone else is looking for the space under a tree :) Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Cor van de Water cwa...@proxim.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 30-Mar-15 1:26:14 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short drives) and can be parked in full sun (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can gain charge over time, about 5 hours (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh harvested each day. ...but...if you have the space you can permanently devote to parking the car like that...you can do far better on every front by putting the panels over that space, when they can generate power when you've got the car out and about, and generate more power when the car's sitting there, and power other things as well, and so on. The only really not-crazy practical use case I can think of for a solar EV is for a nomad who's not in any type of a rush to get from one place to another. (Of course, they make great project challenges, especially for engineering students -- but they don't try to pretend that the vehicles are useful general-purpose vehicles). ...and, even if you iare/i the nomad type...you're probably still better off with the panels stowed away when driving, and setting them up as a tent-like structure over the vehicle when you've settled down for a couple days while you recharge for the next few hours of driving. Come to think of it, even that isn't exactly practical, either. You know...there's another way to look at it. All life (within rounding) on Earth is solar powered. Plants, obviously. Animals eat the plants. Consider the acreage needed to sustain a person. People are very small and low power objects compared to high-speed vehicles. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Yup, People have a big foot print. But that is a whole 'nother discussion, except that with renewable energy powering the transportation, I am able to reduce my foot print and I chose to do that using an EV and buying green electricity... Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: Ben Goren [mailto:b...@trumpetpower.com] Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 1:26 PM To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short drives) and can be parked in full sun (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can gain charge over time, about 5 hours (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh harvested each day. ...but...if you have the space you can permanently devote to parking the car like that...you can do far better on every front by putting the panels over that space, when they can generate power when you've got the car out and about, and generate more power when the car's sitting there, and power other things as well, and so on. The only really not-crazy practical use case I can think of for a solar EV is for a nomad who's not in any type of a rush to get from one place to another. (Of course, they make great project challenges, especially for engineering students -- but they don't try to pretend that the vehicles are useful general-purpose vehicles). ...and, even if you iare/i the nomad type...you're probably still better off with the panels stowed away when driving, and setting them up as a tent-like structure over the vehicle when you've settled down for a couple days while you recharge for the next few hours of driving. Come to think of it, even that isn't exactly practical, either. You know...there's another way to look at it. All life (within rounding) on Earth is solar powered. Plants, obviously. Animals eat the plants. Consider the acreage needed to sustain a person. People are very small and low power objects compared to high-speed vehicles. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 30, 2015, at 12:19 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It is simple: measure the surface area of the car and multiply by the expected PV efficiency, then you know why a Solar Racer needs full sun overhead most of the day *and* be an extreme car to achieve any speed or range. ...and it's worse than even that. The angle from the Sun to the panels matters a great deal. A panel at right angles to the incoming light receives the maximum amount of energy; a panel parallel to the light receives zero energy. You don't have much choice about the angles the panels of a car make with the light. Fixed panels, on the other hand, can either be statically positioned for an optimum annual average production or, if money isn't an object and space is at a premium, you can dynamically tilt the panels to follow the Sun. For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a flat top parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on the pathological for aerodynamics. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Most of California has almost all days sun, but he lives in SF, so clouds (the famous fog) is more an issue but inside the city the shade from buildings and trees is certainly a factor *and* the fact that you do not only want to drive while the sun is overhead. There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short drives) and can be parked in full sun (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can gain charge over time, about 5 hours (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh harvested each day. So, if you have a Leaf and drive it 1 or 2 times per week, such an arrangement can work. Anything that is a daily driver for more than what you could walk or bike and which gets parked in whatever spot available (be picky and you can’t park at all in SF) and in real-life environment and you won’t be able to use it 4 out of 5 times, I am afraid, so unless you normally always plug it (again – a difficult proposition with mostly curb-side parking in SF) there is not much utility from an EV there… Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info http://www.cvandewater.info www.proxim.com http://www.proxim.com/ This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:41 PM To: Ben Goren; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Cc: Cor van de Water Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. We were talking about this a week or two ago. Lawrence will be plugging in, but he is optimistic that this can be minimized. I think he is in the Bay area though, so clouds may be an issue. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Mar 30, 2015, at 12:19 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It is simple: measure the surface area of the car and multiply by the expected PV efficiency, then you know why a Solar Racer needs full sun overhead most of the day *and* be an extreme car to achieve any speed or range. ...and it's worse than even that. The angle from the Sun to the panels matters a great deal. A panel at right angles to the incoming light receives the maximum amount of energy; a panel parallel to the light receives zero energy. You don't have much choice about the angles the panels of a car make with the light. Fixed panels, on the other hand, can either be statically positioned for an optimum annual average production or, if money isn't an object and space is at a premium, you can dynamically tilt the panels to follow the Sun. For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a flat top parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on the pathological for aerodynamics. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. Warren Buffet Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/7539671f/attachment.htm -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 10048 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/7539671f/attachment.png ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
I get about 1 km per hour of top-down-noon sun on a 200 Watt panel. But that only works May to July and only for the center 5 hours of the day. The power drops to virtually zero in December due to the sun angle. Having done it on two cars, It just make no sense once I went solar at home considering I have over 100 times more area on the roof of my house than the car, and my house panels are always optimally pointed at the sun and can get 100 times the power. http://aprs.org/APRS-SPHEV.html Its an old page, but those kind of non-glass flexible panels (about $10/watt) have only dropped 10% in cost in the last 7 years compared to the FACTOR OF TEN drop in solar cost for home roof top panels. (under 70 cents a watt). So if you like chasing 5% solutions when the 95% solution is just sitting there on your roof... go for it. But it's a waste of time on the car. Bob -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:31 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. Well, it might make sense for the special-case commute where your pack isn't large enough to make a round trip but, with solar panels charging during the day, you top off enough to get home. Solves the can't-plug-in-at-work problem too. In fact, you seek the un-coveted parking space that gets maximum sun while everyone else is looking for the space under a tree :) Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Cor van de Water cwa...@proxim.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 30-Mar-15 1:26:14 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short drives) and can be parked in full sun (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can gain charge over time, about 5 hours (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh harvested each day. ...but...if you have the space you can permanently devote to parking the car like that...you can do far better on every front by putting the panels over that space, when they can generate power when you've got the car out and about, and generate more power when the car's sitting there, and power other things as well, and so on. The only really not-crazy practical use case I can think of for a solar EV is for a nomad who's not in any type of a rush to get from one place to another. (Of course, they make great project challenges, especially for engineering students -- but they don't try to pretend that the vehicles are useful general-purpose vehicles). ...and, even if you iare/i the nomad type...you're probably still better off with the panels stowed away when driving, and setting them up as a tent-like structure over the vehicle when you've settled down for a couple days while you recharge for the next few hours of driving. Come to think of it, even that isn't exactly practical, either. You know...there's another way to look at it. All life (within rounding) on Earth is solar powered. Plants, obviously. Animals eat the plants. Consider the acreage needed to sustain a person. People are very small and low power objects compared to high-speed vehicles. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Lawrence, It is simple: measure the surface area of the car and multiply by the expected PV efficiency, then you know why a Solar Racer needs full sun overhead most of the day *and* be an extreme car to achieve any speed or range. Example: typical car is about 12 ft long, 5 or 6 ft wide. The max that you could achieve is a solar roof that has the same outline as the car itself (the principle of a solar racer) so that gives about 60-70 sq ft. With very efficient panels, that may generate up to 1kW in perfect sun conditions and since most lighter cars have about 0.2 kWh per mile, you can do about 5 miles per hour with that power. Oops. For cruising down the freeway, you need about 15kW, so to maintain that ability, your solar panel must be delivering 15 times as much power as the one I just suggest can do under optimal conditions, so in real life when there are some clouds, the sun not directly overhead, some trees or buildings causing shade and so on, your solar car needs an even bigger solar panel. I have seen motorcycles and bicycles run at lower power, there was a trike with a solar roof that attended several EV events, but if you go up in speed then they consume close to what a car does at speed, simply caused by aerodynamics. Look at how records are set on a bike: you can only go fast with either a fairing or by following a vehicle in the drag. e-Bikes can live off of less than 1kW, but now you are talking about 15-20 MPH on bicycle wheels, not a car for the highway. What is it that you are trying to achieve? Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:57 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. I had some brain storms with the placement of solar panels. In a sedan simply cover the back of the back seats in panels. Cover the dash, hood, top and trunk. In a fastback/hatchback like lets say an Aspire make a cover for the trunk out of solar panels. Virtually the whole square footage of the car can contain panels. The car would still be visually safe. Not sure how much loss you get through windows. To get the power you need maybe a solar trailer with 2kw of panels for a total of maybe 3kw. Now you are talking some real power. Maybe enough to cruise at 25 or 30 mph and not touch the pack. I did some calculations on Dave Clouds Dolphin. It has with near 2000 pounds of batteries a 36kw pack. The car he somehow got down to under 1200 pounds. I bet if he simply put in a Nissan Leaf pack with the loss of Perkuet he might get more than 200 mile range with the 24kw pack. Not sure I can calculate it. Any how maybe the secret of solar vehicles for us hobbyists is trailing the panels you need to make it work. If nothing else it gives me an idea for a solar RV. Use the trailer to also house a fold able RV/cargo space. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/4b157b41/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short drives) and can be parked in full sun (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can gain charge over time, about 5 hours (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh harvested each day. ...but...if you have the space you can permanently devote to parking the car like that...you can do far better on every front by putting the panels over that space, when they can generate power when you've got the car out and about, and generate more power when the car's sitting there, and power other things as well, and so on. The only really not-crazy practical use case I can think of for a solar EV is for a nomad who's not in any type of a rush to get from one place to another. (Of course, they make great project challenges, especially for engineering students -- but they don't try to pretend that the vehicles are useful general-purpose vehicles). ...and, even if you iare/i the nomad type...you're probably still better off with the panels stowed away when driving, and setting them up as a tent-like structure over the vehicle when you've settled down for a couple days while you recharge for the next few hours of driving. Come to think of it, even that isn't exactly practical, either. You know...there's another way to look at it. All life (within rounding) on Earth is solar powered. Plants, obviously. Animals eat the plants. Consider the acreage needed to sustain a person. People are very small and low power objects compared to high-speed vehicles. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Ben Goren via EV wrote: ...and it's worse than even that. The angle from the Sun to the panels matters a great deal. A panel at right angles to the incoming light receives the maximum amount of energy; a panel parallel to the light receives zero energy. Agreed. There are some tricks, though. Some solar car designs had aerodynamic shapes that were *mostly* flat, to maximize the panel area presented to the sun. Some had panels that folded out when parked, to get more area when wind resistance wasn't an issue. Conceptually, a vehicle could be very long or very tall, to get additional area while staying within the footprint of a normal vehicle. A vehicle could even change its shape dynamically, depending on how the car was positioned relative to the sun. Or use movable panels inside a fixed transparent aerodynamic shell, or use adjustable mirrors to concentrate the light on the cells. But overall, the amount of power you can get from the sun in a normal-sized is very limited. That pretty much forces you to concentrate on vehicle efficiency. Extremely light, with exceptionally good aerodynamics and very high efficiency components (tires, motor, controller, etc. At least, that's how the solar cars have all done it. You don't have much choice about the angles the panels of a car make with the light. Fixed panels, on the other hand, can either be statically positioned for an optimum annual average production or, if money isn't an object and space is at a premium, you can dynamically tilt the panels to follow the Sun. For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a flat top parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on the pathological for aerodynamics. It works well for airplane wing, though. :-) -- Sometimes when you innovate, you make mistakes. It is best to admit them quickly and get on with improving your other innovations. (Steve Jobs) -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Agreed. The 'solar garage' has so many benefits. The placement of the cells can be (more or less) optimized for charging. The panels can be fairly standard ones and so relatively cheaper. The dump pack can provide emergency power for the freezer and other essential items. The space underneath will be shaded and would make a nice patio area to relax in under the hot sun. A solar car would be a neat thing to see but I don’t think it would be practical as a daily driver. A solar dump store with a quick charge port on the car would be more usable. I know I give up on solar battery charges all the time when I work out how long in direct sun I would need to recharge my phone or laptop and realize it’s several days to recharge per day of use. For example MEC has a 9Ah charger that claims 'Solar panel output is 3W and will fully charge battery pack in about 18 hours of strong sunlight’; yes 500ma x 18 hours = 9Ahr but that’s 18 hours of strong sunlight, maybe 3 days if you can get 6-8 hours a day. For most long weekends away I’ll just take a couple of big rechargeable batteries. A solar charger in my earthquake bug out bag might be useful however. Lawrence Harris On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:26 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short drives) and can be parked in full sun (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can gain charge over time, about 5 hours (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh harvested each day. ...but...if you have the space you can permanently devote to parking the car like that...you can do far better on every front by putting the panels over that space, when they can generate power when you've got the car out and about, and generate more power when the car's sitting there, and power other things as well, and so on. The only really not-crazy practical use case I can think of for a solar EV is for a nomad who's not in any type of a rush to get from one place to another. (Of course, they make great project challenges, especially for engineering students -- but they don't try to pretend that the vehicles are useful general-purpose vehicles). ...and, even if you iare/i the nomad type...you're probably still better off with the panels stowed away when driving, and setting them up as a tent-like structure over the vehicle when you've settled down for a couple days while you recharge for the next few hours of driving. Come to think of it, even that isn't exactly practical, either. You know...there's another way to look at it. All life (within rounding) on Earth is solar powered. Plants, obviously. Animals eat the plants. Consider the acreage needed to sustain a person. People are very small and low power objects compared to high-speed vehicles. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Well, it might make sense for the special-case commute where your pack isn't large enough to make a round trip but, with solar panels charging during the day, you top off enough to get home. ...and then, when it's cloudy...you're stuck at work. Or you only drive the vehicle when the forecaster says there'll be enough sun for you to be able to get home and hope there aren't any freak storms that develop. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 30, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I am sure that he won't start until things are clearer for him and he is getting our input for just that - advice in which direction to go. Well...in that case, my advice would be an awful lot of budgeting -- energy, weight, money, time, and everything else. Start with the Stella as an assumption of a best-case scenario. You should be able to find or guess all the important facts. How much does it weigh? How much would it cost to build an one-off carbon fiber structure of that weight? If you haven't built anything with carbon fiber, call up a shop that specializes in it and ask them for a ballpark figure of what they'd charge you and run with that number. Yes, you'd be able to do it cheaper...but only assuming you do it perfect the first time, so run with their number. The surface area of the panels should be known. Use that figure to spec out the highest-output lightest-weight moldable panels you can find...and don't be surprised when _that_ cost is close to if not more than what your mortgage statement reads. You've got weight and energy in; from there, you can calculate power requirements and how close the panels come to meeting them. For the generation, take the standard figures for rooftop solar, make sure that the installation angle of the calculator you use is horizontal, and knock off at least another 10% due to even worse geometry and the like. At this point, you're already looking at a project that costs six figures easily and likely, even on paper, doesn't go as fast nor as far as you want it to. So, if you want to keep pursuing the project, work on those bits. Once you've got that much solved, then you're ready to start moving on to more mundane things like motors and batteries and the like. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle
I think this is a work in progress. If you remember John Wayland his Blue Meanie and White Zombie have had many revisions. So far Stella the Solar Taxi are the best examples of viable vehicles. You could start with a moped speed vehicle at 2kw and work your way up to a road going vehicle. 3 kw is 4hp. You can do a lot with 4 hp. But you have to tow. Stella uses 1.5kw but is very efficient. It is no doubt doable but your vehicle must be aero and have a good aerodynamic connection to the trailer. A very aerodynamic light vehicle could easily have a 100 mile range with 10kw. Maybe more like 200 if everything is perfect. If you had 3kw at your disposal you could charge in a little over 3 hours or extend your day time range. In this arena lighter is better but area on top is important. Stella does not look aerodynamic. It looks like a van that has been squashed. It is relatively wide and long but if you look at the side view it looks very teardrop like in it's side profile. Since it consumes 55wh per mile it is indeed very aerodynamic. It has a 375 mile range on 16kw without the solar panel...but being greedy I want every free watt of energy I can get. I'm envisioning a kind of RV like vehicle with a towed solar panel. I probably can't afford the super efficient tires, wheels and motors that Stella uses. The Solar Taxi has old technology and is not that efficient. But the goal is on average to use no grid energy to charge. On long trips that will probably be unavoidable. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/872e288c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
When I had a full time job (although this J1772 stuff is turning into a full time job...), I'd have to leave around 6:30 - 7 AM and it would be dark out. If I had a EV that depended on PV panels on the EV roof, I'd be stuck at home, maybe not too bad a deal... Rush Tucson AZ -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 1:48 PM To: Peri Hartman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Well, it might make sense for the special-case commute where your pack isn't large enough to make a round trip but, with solar panels charging during the day, you top off enough to get home. ...and then, when it's cloudy...you're stuck at work. Or you only drive the vehicle when the forecaster says there'll be enough sun for you to be able to get home and hope there aren't any freak storms that develop. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 30, 2015, at 3:06 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: But overall, the amount of power you can get from the sun in a normal-sized is very limited. That pretty much forces you to concentrate on vehicle efficiency. Extremely light, with exceptionally good aerodynamics and very high efficiency components (tires, motor, controller, etc. At least, that's how the solar cars have all done it. Exactly...and that means cutting edge high tech stuff that takes lots of money and years of education and experience and, realistically, a sizable team of top-notch people to pull off. Not a single guy who's asking the kinds of questions Lawrence is. For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a flat top parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on the pathological for aerodynamics. It works well for airplane wing, though. :-) Yes...well...um...my point, exactly...? An airplane wing without an airplane is a pretty good description of a crash investigation scene b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Yeah, I have considered visiting SF (1 hour away) when Stella came through but had other obligations. 1.5kW solar on Stella means that it will get about 7-8 kWh under optimal conditions in a day and to be able to travel 70km (44 mi) on that energy means that its optimized efficiency is about 170 Wh/mi which is pretty good and achievable for a carefully driven and well layed out vehicle with LRR tires, no unnecessary friction, low loss drive train and good aero and moderate speed. The latter part should (and have been) done before, look at the Sunrise project and several quests to streamline small vehicles like a Geo Metro with a new tail that I saw some years ago. But the limitations of charging-on-the-go with solar on the roof does not make much practical sense, we are simply too spoiled with the amount of energy that we can turn on with the flick of a switch or the push of a throttle. Now, I did once advise a person who wanted an RV with solar and did not mind charging for days until it could be driven to the next camp ground / unimproved camp location. I suggested to keep the grid-charger as backup so a camp ground with outlets could be used, but if you are willing to trek only when you have charged long enough then that might work. That was a retired survivalist type though, not the typical city dweller who needs to have the kids to music class in 15 minutes and back at work in 30. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via EV Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 1:50 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. I don't speak for Lawrence, but it looks to me as if he's is on a quest. He saw the Stella solar vehicle (look it up online) when it came through his area several months back. As you can see from the Stella's website, its builders are flogging the PR donkey hard, hoping to land a deal to get something like it into production. I suspect that Lawrence found their Kool- Aid pretty tasty. I probably would have too. I may have misunderstood him, but Lawrence seems to think that Stella can run at highway speeds on just the output from its solar array, which is rated 1.5kW. I wonder if the Stella PR folks have been giving that impression. However, what I've read about it suggests that it needs all day in the sun to go 70km per day. That's still a pretty significant feat, but not the same as cruising on real-time sunshine. This is also where practicality rears its head. That might work when you're driving and parking under a cloudless sky on the open Australian outback, which is where the solar race is held. I'm not so sure it'll work as well on tree-lined suburban streets or city streets with tall buildings. And then there's the wintertime with shorter days and shallower insolation angles. What then? There's also the builder's situation. AFAIK, Stella's builders were a university team with lots of different technical skills and all the time and energy of youth. They also had a university's resources behind them. If they're like most university teams, they got a lot of high-dollar parts, tools, equipment, and services donated to them. My guess is that Lawrence doesn't want to wait for a production version (or suspects, as I do, that it'll be a cold day in hell before it goes into production). I think he probably wants to duplicate the Stella team's feat with a hobbyist's resources and connections. Can he do it? Maybe. I don't know his situation. If you're wealthy, you can solve a problem like this by throwing a few hundred thousand dollars at it. Or if you have lots of time on your hands, you can give it all your time, energy, and imagination, pretty much giving up the rest of your life. Single-minded inventors and developers have done amazing things on shoestrings in their back yards and garages, just by persevering, trying things until they found ones that worked. So - who knows? This kind of project is beyond what I personally would want to get into, in terms of time and potential financial commitment. But maybe I'm not typical. I say more power (sorry ;-) to Lawrence and wish him the best. I wish I lived nearby, so I could watch and cheer him on. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
I don't speak for Lawrence, but it looks to me as if he's is on a quest. He saw the Stella solar vehicle (look it up online) when it came through his area several months back. As you can see from the Stella's website, its builders are flogging the PR donkey hard, hoping to land a deal to get something like it into production. I suspect that Lawrence found their Kool- Aid pretty tasty. I probably would have too. I may have misunderstood him, but Lawrence seems to think that Stella can run at highway speeds on just the output from its solar array, which is rated 1.5kW. I wonder if the Stella PR folks have been giving that impression. However, what I've read about it suggests that it needs all day in the sun to go 70km per day. That's still a pretty significant feat, but not the same as cruising on real-time sunshine. This is also where practicality rears its head. That might work when you're driving and parking under a cloudless sky on the open Australian outback, which is where the solar race is held. I'm not so sure it'll work as well on tree-lined suburban streets or city streets with tall buildings. And then there's the wintertime with shorter days and shallower insolation angles. What then? There's also the builder's situation. AFAIK, Stella's builders were a university team with lots of different technical skills and all the time and energy of youth. They also had a university's resources behind them. If they're like most university teams, they got a lot of high-dollar parts, tools, equipment, and services donated to them. My guess is that Lawrence doesn't want to wait for a production version (or suspects, as I do, that it'll be a cold day in hell before it goes into production). I think he probably wants to duplicate the Stella team's feat with a hobbyist's resources and connections. Can he do it? Maybe. I don't know his situation. If you're wealthy, you can solve a problem like this by throwing a few hundred thousand dollars at it. Or if you have lots of time on your hands, you can give it all your time, energy, and imagination, pretty much giving up the rest of your life. Single-minded inventors and developers have done amazing things on shoestrings in their back yards and garages, just by persevering, trying things until they found ones that worked. So - who knows? This kind of project is beyond what I personally would want to get into, in terms of time and potential financial commitment. But maybe I'm not typical. I say more power (sorry ;-) to Lawrence and wish him the best. I wish I lived nearby, so I could watch and cheer him on. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Ben, Don't worry - Lawrence has been around for longer and has done many EVs and he does like to tinker until it works. He once found out that the rear sprocket for an e-motorcycle need to be almost taller than the rear wheel to get a decent torque for climbing SF hills. I am sure that he won't start until things are clearer for him and he is getting our input for just that - advice in which direction to go. Overwhelmingly, that direction is to put solar on the home (or buy green power) and charge the batteries of the car. But it is interesting to explore (on paper) the alternatives before even getting started in building something. The Stella will answer the question how much demand there is for such a vehicle. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 2:07 PM To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:49 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I say more power (sorry ;-) to Lawrence and wish him the best. I wish I lived nearby, so I could watch and cheer him on. There's a big part of me that wants to wish him the best with the project...but there's an even bigger part that's screaming at me that he's in way over his head and has no clue what he's getting himself into. Things like what appear to be ignorance of basic automotive engineering concepts (like a differential) and aerodynamics (his idea of using lift to make the car seem lighter) and power (not understanding how much energy a vehicle needs) and optics (his idea of lining the seat headrests with panels) and more. I'm sorry, but this whole thing just has fail plastered all over it, and I'd love to see him put his enthusiasm towards something he's not guaranteed to fail at. Lawrence? May I suggest? Ditch this project. Put it out of your mind. If you ever get to the point that you have what it takes to see it through, you'll know it because you'll have all the details already worked out in your head. Instead...work on building yourself a practical electric vehicle, not solar, but a direct replacement for your current vehicle or one you wish you had. And not something with the thought that you might make it solar later, either...just a garden-variety conversion of a regular car. A VW Bug would be a great candidate, and a Karmann Ghia even better. Once you've made yourself a normal electric vehicle, _then_ you can start to think about what you might want to do in the next one...and, also, by then, chances are superlative that you'll realize just how impractical this solar project really is. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I am able to reduce my foot print and I chose to do that using an EV and buying green electricity... That's why, when I put a bunch of panels on my roof some years back, I intentionally oversized it so I could power an EV and still not need net energy. Still working on the EV solution (though it's closer every day), but my (substantial) net surplus almost makes up for the carbon emissions from the miles I drive. ...in that sense, you can _almost_ suggest that my '68 VW Westfalia with its 1600cc gasoline engine is solar powered, but I wouldn't actually go that far b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:49 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I say more power (sorry ;-) to Lawrence and wish him the best. I wish I lived nearby, so I could watch and cheer him on. There's a big part of me that wants to wish him the best with the project...but there's an even bigger part that's screaming at me that he's in way over his head and has no clue what he's getting himself into. Things like what appear to be ignorance of basic automotive engineering concepts (like a differential) and aerodynamics (his idea of using lift to make the car seem lighter) and power (not understanding how much energy a vehicle needs) and optics (his idea of lining the seat headrests with panels) and more. I'm sorry, but this whole thing just has fail plastered all over it, and I'd love to see him put his enthusiasm towards something he's not guaranteed to fail at. Lawrence? May I suggest? Ditch this project. Put it out of your mind. If you ever get to the point that you have what it takes to see it through, you'll know it because you'll have all the details already worked out in your head. Instead...work on building yourself a practical electric vehicle, not solar, but a direct replacement for your current vehicle or one you wish you had. And not something with the thought that you might make it solar later, either...just a garden-variety conversion of a regular car. A VW Bug would be a great candidate, and a Karmann Ghia even better. Once you've made yourself a normal electric vehicle, _then_ you can start to think about what you might want to do in the next one...and, also, by then, chances are superlative that you'll realize just how impractical this solar project really is. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
First of all for those of you that don't know the bay area including it seems Cor(who lives close by) there are many micro climates. My neighborhood is very sunny most of the day almost every day. The fog comes in at night. There are famous pictures of the fog cresting Noe Valley. So sun is not a problem and as a matter of fact I have a south facing hill 4 blocks from my house which would be perfect if I wanted more concentrated energy. I am no noobie Lawrence Rhodes' 1997 Ford Aspire | | | | | | | | | | | Lawrence Rhodes' 1997 Ford AspireOwner Lawrence Rhodes Owner's Other EVs EMB Lectra Vego 600 SX 1980 Jet ElectraVan 750 Schwinn Stingray 2001 Lepton 1987 Honda VT700 Shadow 2007 I-zip ... | | | | View on www.evalbum.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | I have a dozen ev projects under my belt as well as veggie diesel projects. I sold my Aspire for 3k and could buy it back for 1.5 but it is just too heavy for my purposes. (BTW it is in Santa Cruz CA and is a super bargain for someone interested in a daily driver.(it would be awsome with a leaf pack) $1500.00. It did much service taking kids to school in the last decade. It is at 144vdc very peppy.(leaves beamers in the dust for half a block) It's just not nice and shinny. So a paint job and body work is needed) Possibly EVen Dave Clouds Dolphin with a Leaf pack which would put the car at 17 or 18 hundred pounds still might be too heavy. I think something like Lynch put together might be the ticket just wider and longer. Of course it could go the other way and maybe just 750 watts of panel on a very faired motorcycle might also work but it can't be aero and safe with out out riggers like eTracer or the Lit C1. So I think its a numbers game. Do the math build the vehicle. It's the only way to go. I suspect a towed array and panels on the vehicle will do it. Just not sure of the combo.or my budget. Look what Dave Cloud did with 3 grand and an idea. I already have solar on my roof. It's time for the power to be autonomous add to what I'm putting back into the grid. Shade sh made. I'm doing it. Don't forget Stella consumes 55wh per mile. Can drive 40 mph and not use energy from the pack. I have a goal. Just no telling how close I can come. But that being said if I had a leaf pack in my Aspire and 3k of Solar that is 7 hours of charging to full.hmmm maybe I should go that way. It would cost 10 k or so for the panels, 2500 for the leaf pack and then there is the charger and BMS. However what a project. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/27d47a21/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle
Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: I think this is a work in progress. If you remember John Wayland his Blue Meanie and White Zombie have had many revisions. So far Stella the Solar Taxi are the best examples of viable vehicles. You could start with a moped speed vehicle at 2kw and work your way up to a road going vehicle. 3 kw is 4hp. You can do a lot with 4 hp. But you have to tow. Stella uses 1.5kw but is very efficient. It is no doubt doable but your vehicle must be aero and have a good aerodynamic connection to the trailer. A very aerodynamic light vehicle could easily have a 100 mile range with 10kw. Maybe more like 200 if everything is perfect. If you had 3kw at your disposal you could charge in a little over 3 hours or extend your day time range. In this arena lighter is better but area on top is important. Stella does not look aerodynamic. It looks like a van that has been squashed. It is relatively wide and long but if you look at the side view it looks very teardrop like in it's side p rofile. Since it consumes 55wh per mile it is indeed very aerodynamic. It has a 375 mile range on 16kw without the solar panel...but being greedy I want every free watt of energy I can get. I'm envisioning a kind of RV like vehicle with a towed solar panel. I probably can't afford the super efficient tires, wheels and motors that Stella uses. The Solar Taxi has old technology and is not that efficient. But the goal is on average to use no grid energy to charge. On long trips that will probably be unavoidable. Lawrence Rhodes That's the spirit, Lawrence! Everything is impossible until someone goes off and does it. ;-) So, listen to all the experts, saying what the problems are, and what's been tried so far to deal with them. Maybe there are still some things to be tried. In our BEST program (www.bestoutreach.com), we mentor 4th-6th grade students to build electric vehicles. We don't give them kits or plans or parts or money. They're limited to a maximum of $100. They *invent* their own solutions, do their own experiments, *scrounge up* the parts, *build* their prototypes, and *test* it for themselves. Adults have a hard time with this concept. They assume that since they can't build a car out of scrap for $100, it must be impossible for the kids to do it. Yet year after year, they do it! I've seen cars made almost entirely out of cardboard. I've seen a bed turned into a car. I've seen cars that move using propellers. I've seen a 2-wheel self-balancing Segway-like car that worked without computers and gyroscopes. I've seen cars with 9 wheels, none of which can steer (they leaned to put different sets of wheels on the ground to turn). All designed by kids that didn't know it couldn't be done! It makes me think long and hard before saying something is impossible. Hmmm... maybe we should start a contest. Give each team of students one particular make/model of solar panel, and see who can go the farthest and fastest solely on the power it provides. :-) -- Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. (Chinese proverb) -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making Solar Work in a Conventional Vehicle 30 march 2015
Hello, my first comment I think, hope I do it right! On Solar, some things need clarifying: 1. Area and angle of car-mounted collectors. Yes, at 90 degrees to sun is best, but at 45 degrees you will still get near 70% energy. That is perhaps a useful cut-off point to avoid expense and weight (and drag?) of panels with low output. I like to use square meters which give about 11 square feet per square meter. A small car we are designing has about 1.5 square meters of usable collector mounting, maximum 2 square meters or 22 square feet. 2. There is NOT no energy on vertical panels, as there is always indirect radiation. Sometimes this is the major solar energy available (England in winter) I studied this one time, don't remember the exact details but they are available. But it is lower. 3. If the solar panels create ANY appreciable drag chances are high they will add more to your daily power consumption than they give. Dumb idea. 4. Maximum solar energy is considered to be about one kilowatt per square meter at noon. Affordable panels appear to be near 20% efficiency. So we can get about 200 watts per hour of full sun per square meter. Different areas have solar radiations than can be rated in equivalent noon-time hours of sun per day. For example here in Costa Rica it is near 5 hours equivalent per day year round. So a panel that can put out about 200 watts per square meter will put out about 200 watts x 5 hours = 1000 watt hours per day. If you can get 2 square meters on your car you can have 2 kilowatt hours per day to charge your batteries. 4. I REPEAT, to CHARGE YOUR BATTERIES. Having batteries on board and unless you drive your car ALL day long (!) it is silly to calculate how fast you can go ONLY from the power from the cells at the moment. Store that power! 6. Lets use a Nissan Leaf as an example. IF we say a usable 80 miles per charge for the 24 kwh pack to 80% discharge, then we are using about 20 kwh to go 80 miles. That is about 250 watt hours per mile. If we can get the above 2 kilowatt hours per day (optimistic because I did not include battery losses) then you will get about 8 miles per day of free driving from the solar panels. If you can have a lighter and smaller car maybe you can get 175 watt hours per mile? That would give 11.4 miles. Or if 150 watt hours then 13.3 miles. 7. So it would seem that you can get maybe an average of eight to twelve miles per day from roof-mounted solar panels. Do the math to see if it is worth the effort and expense. It likely will be only in some special cases. BUT if your trips are short, commercial power not reliable, and you can park it in the sun. it could be a very satisfying experience. Jesse Blenn -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/447795ae/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
