Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

[paul dove via EV]

I can’t answer to that since I never used a Supercharger but my assumption was 
that this number ($8.10 see photo) was the price to full. Tesla says they do 
not profit on the electricity.



Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 18, 2018, at 6:32 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 10/17/2018 10:02 PM, paul dove wrote:
>> My car says I can supercharge for 8 and change it’s less than $9 for 75kw so 
>> that is like 11 cents a kilowatt.
> 
> Paul, something seems amiss in those numbers.  I have to assume 75kwh for 
> "75kw".  The battery capacity of a Model 3 LR is about 75kwh so you can never 
> put that much into it.  Most SuperCharges start from 10-20% and most are 
> terminated by 80%.  You almost never fully charge at a SuperCharger because 
> the charge rate drops so much as you near full.  If you are following a chain 
> of SuperChargers, your time is wasted by charging to near the top if it is 
> not needed to reach the next SuperCharger.  So, your typical SuperCharger 
> charge on a 3LR is about 60% of battery capacity or less.  No more than about 
> 50 kwh.
> 
> At the end of a SuperCharge session, your car can report how much energy has 
> been taken on.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

[Gary Neal via EV]

I just priced the mid-range model.  With the lowest options available and 
including incentives, prices comes out to ~$37,000 = getting awfully close to 
their $35k target!

Thanks,
Gary

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of paul dove via EV
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 10:20 PM
To: gaildlu...@earthlink.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 

Cc: paul dove 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free 
Supercharging!]

Mid range battery model 3 now available 
https://3.tesla.com/model3/design?#payment

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 18, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Gail Lucas via EV  wrote:
> 
> Mark, I agree 100%. Twenty years ago when I was doing "show and tell" with my 
> Citicars and conversions I could only dream that a car like the Tesla would 
> appear and revolutionize the whole EV industry. The EV1 looked promising but 
> we all know what happened to it. I have ridden in a Tesla and understand why 
> people love it, plus the safety is outstanding. Only thing I could possibly 
> complain about was the lack of a handle over to door to pull myself in.
> 
> Gail
> 
> 
>> On 10/18/2018 7:33 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> You’re absolutely correct.
>> In most cases the negativity impacts the stock, not the product or the 
>> consumer.
>> Despite some of legitimate comments made here about the failure to deliver 
>> on its promises, what Tesla HAS delivered is incredible.
>> For those who find the price not affordable to them, I think two things are 
>> true:
>> - Tesla is having enough problems keeping up with demand for its 
>> current product line. A lower priced car, with even greater demand, 
>> would have squeezed their resources even more;
>> - Tesla’s appearance and impact in the market, and what they’ve accomplished 
>> for the perception of EVs overall, has resulted in the availability of 
>> lower-priced availability of great EVs of all types from other manufacturers.
>> IMHO, we’ve passed the tipping point for EVs, and Tesla gets much of the 
>> credit for it happening so quickly.
>> - Mark
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

[paul dove via EV]

Mid range battery model 3 now available 
https://3.tesla.com/model3/design?#payment

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 18, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Gail Lucas via EV  wrote:
> 
> Mark, I agree 100%. Twenty years ago when I was doing "show and tell" with my 
> Citicars and conversions I could only dream that a car like the Tesla would 
> appear and revolutionize the whole EV industry. The EV1 looked promising but 
> we all know what happened to it. I have ridden in a Tesla and understand why 
> people love it, plus the safety is outstanding. Only thing I could possibly 
> complain about was the lack of a handle over to door to pull myself in.
> 
> Gail
> 
> 
>> On 10/18/2018 7:33 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> You’re absolutely correct.
>> In most cases the negativity impacts the stock, not the product or the 
>> consumer.
>> Despite some of legitimate comments made here about the failure to deliver 
>> on its promises, what Tesla HAS delivered is incredible.
>> For those who find the price not affordable to them, I think two things are 
>> true:
>> - Tesla is having enough problems keeping up with demand for its current 
>> product line. A lower priced car, with even greater demand, would have 
>> squeezed their resources even more;
>> - Tesla’s appearance and impact in the market, and what they’ve accomplished 
>> for the perception of EVs overall, has resulted in the availability of 
>> lower-priced availability of great EVs of all types from other manufacturers.
>> IMHO, we’ve passed the tipping point for EVs, and Tesla gets much of the 
>> credit for it happening so quickly.
>> - Mark
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

[Gail Lucas via EV]

Mark, I agree 100%. Twenty years ago when I was doing "show and tell" 
with my Citicars and conversions I could only dream that a car like the 
Tesla would appear and revolutionize the whole EV industry. The EV1 
looked promising but we all know what happened to it. I have ridden in a 
Tesla and understand why people love it, plus the safety is outstanding. 
Only thing I could possibly complain about was the lack of a handle over 
to door to pull myself in.


Gail


On 10/18/2018 7:33 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

You’re absolutely correct.

In most cases the negativity impacts the stock, not the product or the consumer.

Despite some of legitimate comments made here about the failure to deliver on 
its promises, what Tesla HAS delivered is incredible.

For those who find the price not affordable to them, I think two things are 
true:

- Tesla is having enough problems keeping up with demand for its current 
product line. A lower priced car, with even greater demand, would have squeezed 
their resources even more;

- Tesla’s appearance and impact in the market, and what they’ve accomplished 
for the perception of EVs overall, has resulted in the availability of 
lower-priced availability of great EVs of all types from other manufacturers.

IMHO, we’ve passed the tipping point for EVs, and Tesla gets much of the credit 
for it happening so quickly.



- Mark

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Ok, thanks.

I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken!

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Oct 18, 2018, at 10:15 AM, John Blair via EV  wrote:
> 
> You can check the prices on the Tesla website.  It is different in different 
> states.  Tesla prefers to charge by kWh, but some states don’t allow that so 
> they charge by the minute in two tiers depending on where you are in the 
> charge cycle (above 60kW rate or below).  In California it is 26¢/kWhr. My 
> last trip from Northern California to Southern California in my Model 3 was 
> just under $20 (and I left home 90% full) and about the same on the way home. 
>  Each stop was 15-20 minutes and I was busy the entire time taking my dog for 
> a quick potty break, giving her water, and having a snack.  I actually ended 
> up charging more than I needed to each time. If the car charged in 5 minutes, 
> it would not have been any faster for me.  
> 
> John
> ---
> John G. Blair
> Occidental, California
> 707-874-2399
> http://www.blairstudio.com - Impressionistic Art
> i...@jgblairphoto.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 3:17 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve been told $20.
>> 
>> - Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 2:07 PM, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My understanding is that the cost to use the supercharger network à la 
>>> carte is relatively reasonable (price wise) when compared to buying 
>>> gasoline for a trip of a similar distance. Perhaps somebody with a Tesla 
>>> that doesn't come with free supercharging can report on the prices?
> 
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> 
> 

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

You’re absolutely correct.

In most cases the negativity impacts the stock, not the product or the 
consumer. 

Despite some of legitimate comments made here about the failure to deliver on 
its promises, what Tesla HAS delivered is incredible.

For those who find the price not affordable to them, I think two things are 
true:

- Tesla is having enough problems keeping up with demand for its current 
product line. A lower priced car, with even greater demand, would have squeezed 
their resources even more;

- Tesla’s appearance and impact in the market, and what they’ve accomplished 
for the perception of EVs overall, has resulted in the availability of 
lower-priced availability of great EVs of all types from other manufacturers.

IMHO, we’ve passed the tipping point for EVs, and Tesla gets much of the credit 
for it happening so quickly.



- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Oct 18, 2018, at 1:10 AM, Rush Dougherty via EV  wrote:
> 
> Here's another way Tesla's or for that matter, anything, gets misaligned... 
> somebody just repeats what somebody else told them. And in this case 
> according to 
> a latter post by Paul who has a Tesla - "My car says I can supercharge for 8 
> and 
> change it's less than $9 for 75kw so that is like 11 cents a kilowatt."
> 
> Rush Dougherty
> Tucson AZ 85719
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz via
> 
>> I've been told $20.
>> 
>> - Mark
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Here's another way Tesla's or for that matter, anything, gets misaligned... 
somebody just repeats what somebody else told them. And in this case according 
to 
a latter post by Paul who has a Tesla - "My car says I can supercharge for 8 
and 
change it's less than $9 for 75kw so that is like 11 cents a kilowatt."

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719

> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz via

> I've been told $20.
>
> - Mark



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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

[Willie via EV]

On 10/17/2018 10:02 PM, paul dove wrote:

My car says I can supercharge for 8 and change it’s less than $9 for 75kw so 
that is like 11 cents a kilowatt.


Paul, something seems amiss in those numbers.  I have to assume 75kwh 
for "75kw".  The battery capacity of a Model 3 LR is about 75kwh so you 
can never put that much into it.  Most SuperCharges start from 10-20% 
and most are terminated by 80%.  You almost never fully charge at a 
SuperCharger because the charge rate drops so much as you near full.  If 
you are following a chain of SuperChargers, your time is wasted by 
charging to near the top if it is not needed to reach the next 
SuperCharger.  So, your typical SuperCharger charge on a 3LR is about 
60% of battery capacity or less.  No more than about 50 kwh.


At the end of a SuperCharge session, your car can report how much energy 
has been taken on.


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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

[paul dove via EV]

My car says I can supercharge for 8 and change it’s less than $9 for 75kw so 
that is like 11 cents a kilowatt. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 17, 2018, at 4:24 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 10/17/2018 04:07 PM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
>> My understanding is that the cost to use the supercharger network à la carte 
>> is relatively reasonable (price wise) when compared to buying gasoline for a 
>> trip of a similar distance. Perhaps somebody with a Tesla that doesn't come 
>> with free supercharging can report on the prices?
> 
> Most states prohibit reselling metered electricity.  SuperChargers charge per 
> unit time in two power tiers.  I believe the stated goal is to be cheaper 
> than gasoline and somewhat more than cover the cost of electricity.  It seems 
> SuperCharger electricity is about twice home metered.  Typically, I would 
> say, about $5 for around 30 kwh.
> 
> Let me see what I find on the Tesla site.
> 
> https://www.tesla.com/supercharger
> 
> That says the target is $.26/kwh
> 
> In addition to making fee SuperCharging closer to carrying it's own weight, 
> it reduces the demand/congestion in order to make the enormous fleet of M3s 
> more manageable.
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I’ve been told $20.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Oct 17, 2018, at 2:07 PM, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
> 
> My understanding is that the cost to use the supercharger network à la carte 
> is relatively reasonable (price wise) when compared to buying gasoline for a 
> trip of a similar distance. Perhaps somebody with a Tesla that doesn't come 
> with free supercharging can report on the prices?
> 
> Jay
> 
> On 10/17/18 9:40 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>>> Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S
>>> that doesn't get to use Superchargers for free.
>> Nothing is "free".  It is paid for within the luxury prices on the model S
>> and X.
>> One cannot have it both ways.  If one only wants to pay the absolute
>> minimum, then one doesn't pay for the charging.  If you want the "free"
>> charging, you have to pay for it somehow.
>> Bob
>> .
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

Prices are posted at
https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging

Some states are per kWh, others are per minute (with different rates for
above or below 60 kW charging rates).

Some existing cars are grandfathered into unlimited transferrable free
supercharging for the life of the vehicle, depending on when it was
ordered. That includes all 2016 and earlier cars, and a few built early in
2017 that were ordered before Jan 15, 2017.

Some owners are grandfathered into unlimited nontransferrable free
supercharging for the duration of their ownership of the S/X/3P car they
bought via referral later in 2017 or up until a few weeks ago in 2018.
Those offers are no longer active.

From that page:

Below are additional program details which apply to Tesla vehicles under
the Supercharger program.

   - Model S and X receive 400 kWh (~1,000 miles) of Supercharger credits
   annually.
   -
  - For usage above the complimentary annual credits provided, a small
  fee applies.
   - Model 3 does not receive annual Supercharger credits, and a small fee
   applies to Supercharge.
   - In North America, pricing is fixed within each state or province.
   Internationally, pricing is fixed within each country. All prices include
   taxes and fees.
   - Where possible, owners are billed per kWh (kilowatt-hour), which is
   the most fair and simple method. In other areas, we bill for the service
   per minute.
   - When billing per minute, there are two tiers to account for changes in
   charging speeds, called “tier 1” and “tier 2”.
  - Tier 1 applies while cars are charging at or below 60 kW and tier 2
  applies while cars are charging above 60 kW. Tier 1 is half the cost of
  tier 2.
  - Tier 1 also applies anytime your vehicle is sharing Supercharger
  power with another car.
   - Supercharger pricing information may be viewed on the touchscreen and
   is summarized below.

Supercharging is simple and convenient—just plug in and charge up.
Supercharging history is automatically populated in your Tesla Account
showing the credits used or, if applicable, the amount billed. Tesla is
committed to ensuring that Supercharger will never be a profit center.


On Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 08:40 Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> >Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S
> >that doesn't get to use Superchargers for free.
>
> Nothing is "free".  It is paid for within the luxury prices on the model S
> and X.
>
> One cannot have it both ways.  If one only wants to pay the absolute
> minimum, then one doesn't pay for the charging.  If you want the "free"
> charging, you have to pay for it somehow.
>
> Bob
> .
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

[Willie via EV]

On 10/17/2018 04:07 PM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
My understanding is that the cost to use the supercharger network à la 
carte is relatively reasonable (price wise) when compared to buying 
gasoline for a trip of a similar distance. Perhaps somebody with a Tesla 
that doesn't come with free supercharging can report on the prices?


Most states prohibit reselling metered electricity.  SuperChargers 
charge per unit time in two power tiers.  I believe the stated goal is 
to be cheaper than gasoline and somewhat more than cover the cost of 
electricity.  It seems SuperCharger electricity is about twice home 
metered.  Typically, I would say, about $5 for around 30 kwh.


Let me see what I find on the Tesla site.

https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

That says the target is $.26/kwh

In addition to making fee SuperCharging closer to carrying it's own 
weight, it reduces the demand/congestion in order to make the enormous 
fleet of M3s more manageable.

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 10/16/18 10:02 PM, Willie via EV wrote:



On 10/16/2018 08:55 PM, Peter C. Thompson via EV wrote:

OK, sorry about the caps there, but hey, working aircon in an EV is a 
wonder to behold.


Right on, right on, right on!

I drove my conversion over 50k miles.  Spent something like $10k on 
various air conditioner configurations.  Total air conditioned time was 
about 30 minutes.




I bought some phase change cooling pads, chill them in the fridge before 
I leave and use them as a backrest. It helps, but the AC in my wife's 
Leaf is better.


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

[Jay Summet via EV]

My understanding is that the cost to use the supercharger network à la 
carte is relatively reasonable (price wise) when compared to buying 
gasoline for a trip of a similar distance. Perhaps somebody with a Tesla 
that doesn't come with free supercharging can report on the prices?


Jay

On 10/17/18 9:40 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S
that doesn't get to use Superchargers for free.


Nothing is "free".  It is paid for within the luxury prices on the model S
and X.

One cannot have it both ways.  If one only wants to pay the absolute
minimum, then one doesn't pay for the charging.  If you want the "free"
charging, you have to pay for it somehow.

Bob
.
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[paul dove via EV]

https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-actually-cost-to-make-a-car

The upshot of all of this is that cars don't make a huge amount of profit. The 
industry average is around 5% consolidated operating profit. That is, by the 
time all costs are paid you make 5% profit on the factory gate price. Small 
cars are frequently sold at a loss. Larger cars tend to be lower volume but 
make higher margins.
SUVs and crossovers are generally high margin and support loss making cars for 
the manufacturers. SUVs, crossovers and financing make most of the money for 
the manufacturers.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 16, 2018, at 2:57 PM, robert winfield via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> Maybe you forget how few years Tesla has been selling EV'sMaybe you don't 
> know what you are talking about when you declare "they failed"Maybe you 
> missed they have sold _OVER_1/4 MILLION vehicles, all connected to the 
> mothershipMaybe you are incorrect.Maybe ___Maybe some of us, almost every 
> one, just wants a turnkey vehicle, that just works
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
>>  On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:21 PM, EVDL Administrator via 
>> EV wrote:   On 16 Oct 2018 at 6:35, Paul Dove via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> A car manufacturer doesn't make a profit till the production line is
>> paid for. 
> 
> Of course, but Tesla's declared intent from the start was to make enough 
> money on the luxury models (X and S) that they could afford to introduce a 
> more affordable "Tesla for the rest of us."  
> 
> Apparently you disagree, but un my view, they failed.  
> 
> Maybe they didn't make enough money on the pricey Teslas.  Maybe they blew 
> too much on other stuff.  Maybe they tried to introduce the 3 too soon (and 
> that could be because GM scooped them with the Bolt).  I don't know the 
> reason, just that the "affordable" Tesla isn't, at least not now.
> 
> I find it interesting to compare Tesla's approach to Honda's -- granted that 
> the latter is a much larger company.  When they launched the Accord in 1976, 
> Honda priced it aggressively, to build demand.  They probably took a loss.  
> The price rose in later years as it gained sales.
> 
> Similarly, Toyota took a loss on the early Prius.  I think that was also the 
> case with the Nissan Leaf.  That's just what automakers have to do when they 
> want a new and different vehicle to succeed. That and lots of advertising.
> 
> I understand that maybe Tesla can't afford to do the same, but I'm not sure 
> they can succeed in the long run if they don't.  That's especially true in 
> the US, which is regressing into a less EV-friendly market.
> 
> Maybe the "Tesla cachet" will carry them through, if they can maintain their 
> reputation.  Time will tell.  
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [SHORTS]

[Gail Lucas via EV]

Willie,

Since you were an early Tesla driver and have much experience with 
several Tesla models, you can be a spokesperson to contradict the 
erroneous and negative claims made by the detractors. Note where the bad 
reviews are published and send rebuttals.


If you are watching the TSLA stock you can also advise us when to buy 
it. :)


Gail

On 10/17/2018 8:03 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
Well, the short sellers have a place in the market.  If someone is 
convinced that a company is destined to failure, there should be a 
mechanism that allows them to profit from their foresight. If it is 
correct. The volume of short selling also serves as a red flag for 
perhaps overly enthusiastic investors/speculators.


The problem we see is that short sellers of TSLA seem to be putting out 
erroneous information.  Overly emphasizing every insignificant problem. 
I don't know what the solution to that problem might be.  The market is 
pretty efficient; I believe value is eventually recognized.  The short 
seller shenanigans can be viewed as a service to those with a broader 
view in that buying opportunities are presented.


I have high hopes that TSLA will be a $1000 stock in the next few years. 
  Maybe $10,000.

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[paul dove via EV]

The base price is still $35,000. They just won’t sell them without the options 
yet. the long range battery $9,000 and the premium package $5,000 = $49,000.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 16, 2018, at 6:34 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Ok, so maybe they failed in that goal - to provide a car affordable to the 
> masses. But does it matter? It does to you, I understand and empathise. And 
> to me. But in the big EV picture, as long as they can stay in business and 
> sell the model 3's, they are helping the EV mission. As long as they have a 
> solid demand for their product, they are making it possible for cheaper and 
> cheaper models to become available. For that, I am very excited.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
> Sent: 16-Oct-18 2:04:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu
> 
>>> On 16 Oct 2018 at 19:57, robert winfield via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> Maybe you forget how few years Tesla has been selling EV'sMaybe you don't 
>>> know
>>> what you are talking about when you declare "they failed"
>> 
>> No, I don't forget.  Yes, I do know what I'm talking about.
>> 
>> Tesla has done lots of good things.  They went where few automakers refused
>> to go, showing them the way.  They built cars that in many ways are some of
>> the best around, regardless of energy source.  For that, I admire them.
>> Don't misunderstand me on that.
>> 
>> But when they set out to build a car that people of modest means (like me)
>> could afford, I'm sorry, they failed.
>> 
>> Maybe to all of you, $46k is chump change.  I'm glad for you.  But for
>> millions of people worldwide, that's a lot of money.  The low income sector
>> is the fastest growing class worldwide, and for SURE it is here in the
>> States
>> 
>> When a person is bringing in $25k or $30k or $35k a year and trying to
>> support a family, and I personally know people in that situation, do you
>> really want to encourage him to buy a $46k car that he can't afford?
>> 
>> And don't give me that nose-in-the-air rubbish about how they chose their
>> lot.  Sometimes you do everything right and you still get what life hands
>> you.
>> 
>> I gave you an example of what I consider an affordable car.  You dismissed
>> it and said it wasn't comparable.  That's not the point. If you can't afford
>> the more expensive car, it doesn't matter how good it is.  You're buying the
>> cheaper one.
>> 
>> The good news is that you're not totally shut out of the EV world.  Used
>> Nissan Leaves and a few other models are now available in the US for
>> reasonably affordable prices.  I don't know about other countries though,
>> nor do I know how long the present glut of cheap Leaves will last.
>> 
>> I haven't driven a Model 3, probably never will, but I'm sure it's a great
>> car.  Maybe it really is comparable to an BMW or Mercedes.
>> 
>> But blast it, THAT'S NOT WHAT TESLA PROMISED FOR THE MODEL 3.  They promised
>> an affordable EV.  Most of us assumed they meant something more or less
>> comparable to a mid-range Toyota.  But that's not what Tesla delivered.
>> Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S that doesn't get to use
>> Superchargers for free.
>> 
>> Some of us are not impressed.
>> 
>> In many other efforts, Tesla succeeded, but not in that one.  Maybe someday
>> they will.  I hope so.
>> 
>> And that's all I have to say on this subject.
>> 
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>> 
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> 
>> 
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>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [SHORTS]

[Willie via EV]

On 10/17/2018 08:29 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

What is frustrating to me is all the Tesla short seller naysayers.  These
greedy do-nothings put out 90% of the anti-tesla propaganda because it is
in their own personal self interest to see Tesla fail.  They have bet
their money to see Tesla fail and so everything they say is anti-tesla and
the more they can sell negativism to others, the greater their profit.


Well, the short sellers have a place in the market.  If someone is 
convinced that a company is destined to failure, there should be a 
mechanism that allows them to profit from their foresight. If it is 
correct. The volume of short selling also serves as a red flag for 
perhaps overly enthusiastic investors/speculators.


The problem we see is that short sellers of TSLA seem to be putting out 
erroneous information.  Overly emphasizing every insignificant problem. 
I don't know what the solution to that problem might be.  The market is 
pretty efficient; I believe value is eventually recognized.  The short 
seller shenanigans can be viewed as a service to those with a broader 
view in that buying opportunities are presented.


I have high hopes that TSLA will be a $1000 stock in the next few years. 
 Maybe $10,000.

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

>Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S
>that doesn't get to use Superchargers for free.

Nothing is "free".  It is paid for within the luxury prices on the model S
and X.

One cannot have it both ways.  If one only wants to pay the absolute
minimum, then one doesn't pay for the charging.  If you want the "free"
charging, you have to pay for it somehow.

Bob
.
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [SHORTS]

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

What is frustrating to me is all the Tesla short seller naysayers.  These
greedy do-nothings put out 90% of the anti-tesla propaganda because it is
in their own personal self interest to see Tesla fail.  They have bet
their money to see Tesla fail and so everything they say is anti-tesla and
the more they can sell negativism to others, the greater their profit.

It is sad to see all that fake news picked up here on an EV list.

With over one fourth of all tesla investors actively investing in Tesla to
fail by shorting the stock, that is a lot of self-serving negativity.
Ignore it.  The short sellers are just trying to take a greedy profit and
could care less about EV's...

Those who understand them and the huge effort it takes to drastically
change the American driving experience will understand and will invest in
Tesla for the long haul.

I'm certainly in it for the long haul, having owned an EV since 1983(city
car)..  So what if they are a year late.  Its been 35 years to get here.

Bob

-- Original Message --
>No, I don't forget.  Yes, I do know what I'm talking about.
>But when they set out to build a car that people of modest means (like
>me) could afford, I'm sorry, they failed.
>
>And don't give me that nose-in-the-air rubbish about how they chose
>their lot.  Sometimes you do everything right and you still get what life

>hands you.
>
>That's not the point. If you can't afford the more expensive car, it
>doesn't matter how good it is.  You're buying the cheaper one.
>
>I haven't driven a Model 3, probably never will, but I'm sure it's a
>great car.  Maybe it really is comparable to an BMW or Mercedes.
>
>But blast it, THAT'S NOT WHAT TESLA PROMISED FOR THE MODEL 3.
>They promised an affordable EV.  Most of us assumed they meant
>something more or less comparable to a mid-range Toyota.
>But that's not what Tesla delivered.
>Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S that doesn't get to
>use Superchargers for free.
>
>Some of us are not impressed.
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Now that I have calmed down and thought about everything I now realize that 
what we have been doing for decades in car culture terms is restomoding.  A 
restomod is a vehicle that has been restored and modified.  Example: A 350 
Chevy in a Mustang.  Distained by some in the car community but functional and 
exciting for the owner. . One of the best in the electric vehicle community was 
John Wayland.  Blue Meanie comes to mind.  Well engineered, a practical one 
shot EV which he eventually got to a hundred mile range.  However John had to 
go to great lengths to quickly charge Meanie.  No way it is coming down the 
coast to California quickly.  No fast charger. However if the vehicle is light 
and the pack is small it might be possible to quickly charge using J1772. But I 
digress slightly. After having a few factory EVs I can confidently say that no 
one I know can even come close to that kind of performance the way we have been 
doing our builds. Level 3 charging.  I can take a 24 kw Leaf from San Diego to 
San Francisco. So the future of our restomoding will be taking factory EV parts 
and using them because like one EV expert said: "We take advantage of the 
millions of dollars of engineering that goes into a vehicle for our platforms.  
Now we will take EV drive trains and put them in vehicles of our choice.  Or 
with out the fuss simply buy a Tesla III because it is simply the best car ever 
engineered. None of us could build that in our garage.  Just don't total it and 
expect to drive it again.  That's what insurance is for.  Lawrence Rhodes.. 
happy with my 24 and 30 kw Leafs...goodnuf for now.
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Willie via EV]

On 10/16/2018 08:55 PM, Peter C. Thompson via EV wrote:

OK, sorry about the caps there, but hey, working aircon in an EV is a 
wonder to behold.


Right on, right on, right on!

I drove my conversion over 50k miles.  Spent something like $10k on 
various air conditioner configurations.  Total air conditioned time was 
about 30 minutes.


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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Peter C. Thompson via EV]

There are other used EVs worth purchasing.  I just bought a 2016 VW 
E-Golf for my commute.  S much nicer than my homebuilt EV - has 
airbags, seriously nice stereo, power steering and brakes, AND WORKING 
AIRCON!


OK, sorry about the caps there, but hey, working aircon in an EV is a 
wonder to behold.


EV-grin is now restored.

Cheers, Peter

On 10/16/18 6:23 PM, Alan Brinkman via EV wrote:

I read a few posts but not the whole thread, but had to say less than 2 cents 
worth...

My son and I were bored out of our minds at a mall in San Diego, California, 
waiting for several hours for the wife and daughter who were in the Apple 
store

We eventually found a Tesla store and googled over the Tesla Model X the 
fit and finish.. this model had six seats, the middle two slid forward to 
easily enter the rear most 2 seats. gull wing doors for the 
passengers front trunk that maybe would hold two shoe 
boxes. price unknown - we did not ask. I see Tesla's on the freeway and 
you can tell the build quality looking from the next lane over at 70 miles per 
hour and I have old eyes.

Do I wish they were affordable? Yes. Are they affordable to me? No. Are they 
quality? Cutting edge? Our home town mall half way between San Diego and Tucson 
Arizona has a Tesla charging station. I bet there are no local Teslas here.

When I get good and ready to buy an Electric car I will get a used Nissan Leaf 
because of my price range. However, Tesla has made a great stand for Electric 
Vehicles. They did not turn their back on them like Chevrolet with the EV1.

Bob Rice would like the Tesla, but he would have some self-invented words to 
describe the price, the sheer number of batteries, the computer system not 
repairable by owners, the sales lot being inside a mall, the chargers not 
available to the public, the sheeple who buy them (sorry for that).

Make it a battery powered electric day!
Alan




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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Alan Brinkman via EV]

I read a few posts but not the whole thread, but had to say less than 2 cents 
worth...

My son and I were bored out of our minds at a mall in San Diego, California, 
waiting for several hours for the wife and daughter who were in the Apple 
store

We eventually found a Tesla store and googled over the Tesla Model X the 
fit and finish.. this model had six seats, the middle two slid forward to 
easily enter the rear most 2 seats. gull wing doors for the 
passengers front trunk that maybe would hold two shoe 
boxes. price unknown - we did not ask. I see Tesla's on the freeway and 
you can tell the build quality looking from the next lane over at 70 miles per 
hour and I have old eyes.

Do I wish they were affordable? Yes. Are they affordable to me? No. Are they 
quality? Cutting edge? Our home town mall half way between San Diego and Tucson 
Arizona has a Tesla charging station. I bet there are no local Teslas here.

When I get good and ready to buy an Electric car I will get a used Nissan Leaf 
because of my price range. However, Tesla has made a great stand for Electric 
Vehicles. They did not turn their back on them like Chevrolet with the EV1.

Bob Rice would like the Tesla, but he would have some self-invented words to 
describe the price, the sheer number of batteries, the computer system not 
repairable by owners, the sales lot being inside a mall, the chargers not 
available to the public, the sheeple who buy them (sorry for that).

Make it a battery powered electric day!
Alan




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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Willie via EV]

On 10/16/2018 06:34 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Ok, so maybe they failed in that goal - to provide a car affordable to 
the masses. But does it matter? It does to you, I understand and 


I wonder if my comments are reaching the list?

Tesla has NOT failed to "provide a car affordable to the masses" or 
failed to full fill their stated commitments!  Just like other Tesla 
cars developed, THE SCHEDULE HAS SLIPPED!  The $35k car arrives NEXT 
YEAR rather than last year.  Is a couple of years such a big deal?


->I<- think not.
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Ok, so maybe they failed in that goal - to provide a car affordable to 
the masses. But does it matter? It does to you, I understand and 
empathise. And to me. But in the big EV picture, as long as they can 
stay in business and sell the model 3's, they are helping the EV 
mission. As long as they have a solid demand for their product, they are 
making it possible for cheaper and cheaper models to become available. 
For that, I am very excited.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 16-Oct-18 2:04:23 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu


On 16 Oct 2018 at 19:57, robert winfield via EV wrote:

Maybe you forget how few years Tesla has been selling EV'sMaybe you 
don't know

what you are talking about when you declare "they failed"


No, I don't forget.  Yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Tesla has done lots of good things.  They went where few automakers 
refused
to go, showing them the way.  They built cars that in many ways are 
some of

the best around, regardless of energy source.  For that, I admire them.
Don't misunderstand me on that.

But when they set out to build a car that people of modest means (like 
me)

could afford, I'm sorry, they failed.

Maybe to all of you, $46k is chump change.  I'm glad for you.  But for
millions of people worldwide, that's a lot of money.  The low income 
sector

is the fastest growing class worldwide, and for SURE it is here in the
States

When a person is bringing in $25k or $30k or $35k a year and trying to
support a family, and I personally know people in that situation, do 
you

really want to encourage him to buy a $46k car that he can't afford?

And don't give me that nose-in-the-air rubbish about how they chose 
their
lot.  Sometimes you do everything right and you still get what life 
hands

you.

I gave you an example of what I consider an affordable car.  You 
dismissed
it and said it wasn't comparable.  That's not the point. If you can't 
afford
the more expensive car, it doesn't matter how good it is.  You're 
buying the

cheaper one.

The good news is that you're not totally shut out of the EV world.  
Used

Nissan Leaves and a few other models are now available in the US for
reasonably affordable prices.  I don't know about other countries 
though,

nor do I know how long the present glut of cheap Leaves will last.

I haven't driven a Model 3, probably never will, but I'm sure it's a 
great

car.  Maybe it really is comparable to an BMW or Mercedes.

But blast it, THAT'S NOT WHAT TESLA PROMISED FOR THE MODEL 3.  They 
promised

an affordable EV.  Most of us assumed they meant something more or less
comparable to a mid-range Toyota.  But that's not what Tesla delivered.
Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S that doesn't get to 
use

Superchargers for free.

Some of us are not impressed.

In many other efforts, Tesla succeeded, but not in that one.  Maybe 
someday

they will.  I hope so.

And that's all I have to say on this subject.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Mark Grasser via EV]

Yes, $46,000 is a lot of money but don't forget about the savings in fuel
dollars over say 10 years or  maybe 100,000 mles. Is it maybe $15,000.00.
Makes it like buying a $31,000.00 car. One of the reasonswe build our own.




Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

On 16 Oct 2018 at 19:57, robert winfield via EV wrote:

> Maybe you forget how few years Tesla has been selling EV'sMaybe you 
> don't know what you are talking about when you declare "they failed"

No, I don't forget.  Yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Tesla has done lots of good things.  They went where few automakers refused
to go, showing them the way.  They built cars that in many ways are some of
the best around, regardless of energy source.  For that, I admire them.  
Don't misunderstand me on that.

But when they set out to build a car that people of modest means (like me)
could afford, I'm sorry, they failed.  

Maybe to all of you, $46k is chump change.  I'm glad for you.  But for
millions of people worldwide, that's a lot of money.  The low income sector
is the fastest growing class worldwide, and for SURE it is here in the
States  

When a person is bringing in $25k or $30k or $35k a year and trying to
support a family, and I personally know people in that situation, do you
really want to encourage him to buy a $46k car that he can't afford?

And don't give me that nose-in-the-air rubbish about how they chose their
lot.  Sometimes you do everything right and you still get what life hands
you.

I gave you an example of what I consider an affordable car.  You dismissed
it and said it wasn't comparable.  That's not the point. If you can't afford
the more expensive car, it doesn't matter how good it is.  You're buying the
cheaper one.  

The good news is that you're not totally shut out of the EV world.  Used
Nissan Leaves and a few other models are now available in the US for
reasonably affordable prices.  I don't know about other countries though,
nor do I know how long the present glut of cheap Leaves will last.

I haven't driven a Model 3, probably never will, but I'm sure it's a great
car.  Maybe it really is comparable to an BMW or Mercedes.  

But blast it, THAT'S NOT WHAT TESLA PROMISED FOR THE MODEL 3.  They promised
an affordable EV.  Most of us assumed they meant something more or less
comparable to a mid-range Toyota.  But that's not what Tesla delivered.  
Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S that doesn't get to use
Superchargers for free.  

Some of us are not impressed.

In many other efforts, Tesla succeeded, but not in that one.  Maybe someday
they will.  I hope so.

And that's all I have to say on this subject.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[robert winfield via EV]

 met Bob Beaumont at CitiCar meetup in Maryland. owned a "Blue Cheese Wedge" 
also, and a Kewetmet Bob Rice at a "Power of DC" in Frederick, Maryland.nice 
guy also.yes, in a few years Tesla will be 10 years old and used S.X and 3"s 
will be available for all, or new turnkey cheap ones when the 
"AutoFac's/Gigafactories" really start churning out
On Tuesday, October 16, 2018, 6:24:11 PM EDT, Willie via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

On 10/16/2018 04:48 PM, robert winfield via EV wrote:
>  On Tuesday, October 16, 2018, 5:04:39 PM EDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
> wrote:
>  If you know what you are talking about, then tell me, how many years has 
>Tesla been selling vehicles. 10 years? 7 years? 5 years?If you look at the 
>game plan, it's to sell, not low end vehicles, llike the CitiCars of old by 
>Bob Beaumont, not the ElCars, 36v lead sledsIt was to start 

I HONOR Bob Beaumont!  And Bob Rice.  And so many others that have done 
their bit to promote EVs.  Though I knew neither Bob, I firmly believe 
both would be thrilled at Tesla accomplishments if they were here to 
see.  I doubt they would nitpick minor schedule delays.  The prior 
accomplishments seem minor and meager compared to the great Tesla leap 
forward, but they set the stage and whetted appetites for today's 
mainstream EVs.

Due almost exclusively to Tesla, EVs have "made it".  There is almost no 
possibility of EVs sinking back into oblivion as has happened more than 
once in the past.  Abandon your grousing and CELEBRATE!  Already, used 
Tesla Ss have dropped in value from $80k-$120k to ~$30k.  In a few 
years, you will be able to buy used Model 3s for $10k.  Or less.  Large 
numbers of salvage Tesla batteries will be available at very low prices 
to experimenters.  And, they will be FAR better than today's Leaf 
salvage batteries.

Not addressed to you, Robert.
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Willie via EV]

On 10/16/2018 04:48 PM, robert winfield via EV wrote:

  On Tuesday, October 16, 2018, 5:04:39 PM EDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:
  If you know what you are talking about, then tell me, how many years has Tesla been selling vehicles. 10 years? 7 years? 5 years?If you look at the game plan, it's to sell, not low end vehicles, llike the CitiCars of old by Bob Beaumont, not the ElCars, 36v lead sledsIt was to start 


I HONOR Bob Beaumont!  And Bob Rice.  And so many others that have done 
their bit to promote EVs.  Though I knew neither Bob, I firmly believe 
both would be thrilled at Tesla accomplishments if they were here to 
see.  I doubt they would nitpick minor schedule delays.  The prior 
accomplishments seem minor and meager compared to the great Tesla leap 
forward, but they set the stage and whetted appetites for today's 
mainstream EVs.


Due almost exclusively to Tesla, EVs have "made it".  There is almost no 
possibility of EVs sinking back into oblivion as has happened more than 
once in the past.   Abandon your grousing and CELEBRATE!  Already, used 
Tesla Ss have dropped in value from $80k-$120k to ~$30k.  In a few 
years, you will be able to buy used Model 3s for $10k.  Or less.  Large 
numbers of salvage Tesla batteries will be available at very low prices 
to experimenters.  And, they will be FAR better than today's Leaf 
salvage batteries.


Not addressed to you, Robert.
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[robert winfield via EV]

 On Tuesday, October 16, 2018, 5:04:39 PM EDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:
 If you know what you are talking about, then tell me, how many years has Tesla 
been selling vehicles. 10 years? 7 years? 5 years?If you look at the game plan, 
it's to sell, not low end vehicles, llike the CitiCars of old by Bob Beaumont, 
not the ElCars, 36v lead sledsIt was to start with high end roadstersthen 
follow with high end Model S that competes with high end luxury vehiclesthen 
follow with the high end Model X that competes with high end SUV'sthen follow 
with high end and mid Model 3, financed by the monies from the Roadsters, Model 
S and Model X
You are complaining the Tesla model 3 is not cheap enough for you, be 
patientThe Model 3 started selling in July, 2017, 15 months ago. a total of 
-->30<--, and 1,172 for all of 2017The model 3 has now sold over 78,000 as of 
end of September, just in 2018, large battery packs all, for people who have 
the moneythose people are financing _your_ model 3 if you get one., or notThere 
will become used ones eventually for you and I in a few years.I myself cannot 
afford a new one yet,either, fixed retiree income and all.
Tesla is enabling you to get less expensive, much lighter batteries and battery 
packs for your EV'sthey have used over 2,000,000,000 (2 Billion) 18650's and 
2170's
in 2018 they used 86% of all Li batteries for EV's so far9,600,000 of the 
11,000,000 kilowatt hours in pure EV's (excluding China)
the vehicles will go 200- 300 miles.
I fail to understand your dislike of Tesla as they are making EV's mainstream 
faster by 10 -20 years then otherwise would be
The Model 3 is only 15 months old in terms of being sold. Cheaper ones take 
longer as the expensive ones subsidize the cheaper ones

 On 16 Oct 2018 at 19:57, robert winfield via EV wrote:

> Maybe you forget how few years Tesla has been selling EV'sMaybe you don't know
> what you are talking about when you declare "they failed"

No, I don't forget.  Yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Tesla has done lots of good things.  They went where few automakers refused 
to go, showing them the way.  They built cars that in many ways are some of 
the best around, regardless of energy source.  For that, I admire them.  
Don't misunderstand me on that.

But when they set out to build a car that people of modest means (like me) 
could afford, I'm sorry, they failed.  

Maybe to all of you, $46k is chump change.  I'm glad for you.  But for 
millions of people worldwide, that's a lot of money.  The low income sector  
is the fastest growing class worldwide, and for SURE it is here in the 
States  

When a person is bringing in $25k or $30k or $35k a year and trying to 
support a family, and I personally know people in that situation, do you 
really want to encourage him to buy a $46k car that he can't afford?

And don't give me that nose-in-the-air rubbish about how they chose their 
lot.  Sometimes you do everything right and you still get what life hands 
you.

I gave you an example of what I consider an affordable car.  You dismissed 
it and said it wasn't comparable.  That's not the point. If you can't afford 
the more expensive car, it doesn't matter how good it is.  You're buying the 
cheaper one.  

The good news is that you're not totally shut out of the EV world.  Used 
Nissan Leaves and a few other models are now available in the US for 
reasonably affordable prices.  I don't know about other countries though, 
nor do I know how long the present glut of cheap Leaves will last.

I haven't driven a Model 3, probably never will, but I'm sure it's a great 
car.  Maybe it really is comparable to an BMW or Mercedes.  

But blast it, THAT'S NOT WHAT TESLA PROMISED FOR THE MODEL 3.  They promised 
an affordable EV.  Most of us assumed they meant something more or less 
comparable to a mid-range Toyota.  But that's not what Tesla delivered.  
Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S that doesn't get to use 
Superchargers for free.  

Some of us are not impressed.

In many other efforts, Tesla succeeded, but not in that one.  Maybe someday 
they will.  I hope so.

And that's all I have to say on this subject.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[robert winfield via EV]

 On Tuesday, October 16, 2018, 5:04:39 PM EDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:
 If you know what you are talking about, then tell me, how many years has Tesla 
been selling vehicles. 10 years? 7 years? 5 years?If you look at the game plan, 
it's to sell, not low end vehicles, llike the CitiCars of old by Bob Beaumont, 
not the ElCars, 36v lead sledsIt was to start with high end roadstersthen 
follow with high end Model S that competes with high end luxury vehiclesthen 
follow with the high end Model X that competes with high end SUV'sthen follow 
with high end and mid Model 3, financed by the monies from the Roadsters, Model 
S and Model X
You are complaining the Tesla model 3 is not cheap enough for you, be 
patientThe Model 3 started selling in July, 2017, 15 months ago. a total of 
-->30<--, and 1,172 for all of 2017The model 3 has now sold over 78,000 as of 
end of September, just in 2018, large battery packs all, for people who have 
the moneythose people are financing _your_ model 3 if you get one., or notThere 
will become used ones eventually for you and I in a few years.I myself cannot 
afford a new one yet,either, fixed retiree income and all.
Tesla is enabling you to get less expensive, much lighter batteries and battery 
packs for your EV'sthey have used over 2,000,000,000 (2 Billion) 18650's and 
2170's
in 2018 they used 86% of all Li batteries for EV's so far9,600,000 of the 
11,000,000 kilowatt hours in pure EV's (excluding China)
the vehicles will go 200- 300 miles.
I fail to understand your dislike of Tesla as they are making EV's mainstream 
faster by 10 -20 years then otherwise would be
The Model 3 is only 15 months old in terms of being sold. Cheaper ones take 
longer as the expensive ones subsidize the cheaper ones

 On 16 Oct 2018 at 19:57, robert winfield via EV wrote:

> Maybe you forget how few years Tesla has been selling EV'sMaybe you don't know
> what you are talking about when you declare "they failed"

No, I don't forget.  Yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Tesla has done lots of good things.  They went where few automakers refused 
to go, showing them the way.  They built cars that in many ways are some of 
the best around, regardless of energy source.  For that, I admire them.  
Don't misunderstand me on that.

But when they set out to build a car that people of modest means (like me) 
could afford, I'm sorry, they failed.  

Maybe to all of you, $46k is chump change.  I'm glad for you.  But for 
millions of people worldwide, that's a lot of money.  The low income sector  
is the fastest growing class worldwide, and for SURE it is here in the 
States  

When a person is bringing in $25k or $30k or $35k a year and trying to 
support a family, and I personally know people in that situation, do you 
really want to encourage him to buy a $46k car that he can't afford?

And don't give me that nose-in-the-air rubbish about how they chose their 
lot.  Sometimes you do everything right and you still get what life hands 
you.

I gave you an example of what I consider an affordable car.  You dismissed 
it and said it wasn't comparable.  That's not the point. If you can't afford 
the more expensive car, it doesn't matter how good it is.  You're buying the 
cheaper one.  

The good news is that you're not totally shut out of the EV world.  Used 
Nissan Leaves and a few other models are now available in the US for 
reasonably affordable prices.  I don't know about other countries though, 
nor do I know how long the present glut of cheap Leaves will last.

I haven't driven a Model 3, probably never will, but I'm sure it's a great 
car.  Maybe it really is comparable to an BMW or Mercedes.  

But blast it, THAT'S NOT WHAT TESLA PROMISED FOR THE MODEL 3.  They promised 
an affordable EV.  Most of us assumed they meant something more or less 
comparable to a mid-range Toyota.  But that's not what Tesla delivered.  
Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S that doesn't get to use 
Superchargers for free.  

Some of us are not impressed.

In many other efforts, Tesla succeeded, but not in that one.  Maybe someday 
they will.  I hope so.

And that's all I have to say on this subject.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[robert winfield via EV]

 On Tuesday, October 16, 2018, 5:04:39 PM EDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:
 If you know what you are talking about, then tell me, how many years has Tesla 
been selling vehicles. 10 years? 7 years? 5 years?If you look at the game plan, 
it's to sell, not low end vehicles, llike the CitiCars of old by Bob Beaumont, 
not the ElCars, 36v lead sledsIt was to start with high end roadstersthen 
follow with high end Model S that competes with high end luxury vehiclesthen 
follow with the high end Model X that competes with high end SUV'sthen follow 
with high end and mid Model 3, financed by the monies from the Roadsters, Model 
S and Model X
You are complaining the Tesla model 3 is not cheap enough for you, be 
patientThe Model 3 started selling in July, 2017, 15 months ago. a total of 
-->30<--, and 1,172 for all of 2017The model 3 has now sold over 78,000 as of 
end of September, just in 2018, large battery packs all, for people who have 
the moneythose people are financing _your_ model 3 if you get one., or notThere 
will become used ones eventually for you and I in a few years.I myself cannot 
afford a new one yet,either, fixed retiree income and all.
Tesla is enabling you to get less expensive, much lighter batteries and battery 
packs for your EV'sthey have used over 2,000,000,000 (2 Billion) 18650's and 
2170's
in 2018 they used 86% of all Li batteries for EV's so far9,600,000 of the 
11,000,000 kilowatt hours in pure EV's (excluding China)
the vehicles will go 200- 300 miles.
I fail to understand your dislike of Tesla as they are making EV's mainstream 
faster by 10 -20 years then otherwise would be
The Model 3 is only 15 months old in terms of being sold. Cheaper ones take 
longer as the expensive ones subsidize the cheaper ones

 On 16 Oct 2018 at 19:57, robert winfield via EV wrote:

> Maybe you forget how few years Tesla has been selling EV'sMaybe you don't know
> what you are talking about when you declare "they failed"

No, I don't forget.  Yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Tesla has done lots of good things.  They went where few automakers refused 
to go, showing them the way.  They built cars that in many ways are some of 
the best around, regardless of energy source.  For that, I admire them.  
Don't misunderstand me on that.

But when they set out to build a car that people of modest means (like me) 
could afford, I'm sorry, they failed.  

Maybe to all of you, $46k is chump change.  I'm glad for you.  But for 
millions of people worldwide, that's a lot of money.  The low income sector  
is the fastest growing class worldwide, and for SURE it is here in the 
States  

When a person is bringing in $25k or $30k or $35k a year and trying to 
support a family, and I personally know people in that situation, do you 
really want to encourage him to buy a $46k car that he can't afford?

And don't give me that nose-in-the-air rubbish about how they chose their 
lot.  Sometimes you do everything right and you still get what life hands 
you.

I gave you an example of what I consider an affordable car.  You dismissed 
it and said it wasn't comparable.  That's not the point. If you can't afford 
the more expensive car, it doesn't matter how good it is.  You're buying the 
cheaper one.  

The good news is that you're not totally shut out of the EV world.  Used 
Nissan Leaves and a few other models are now available in the US for 
reasonably affordable prices.  I don't know about other countries though, 
nor do I know how long the present glut of cheap Leaves will last.

I haven't driven a Model 3, probably never will, but I'm sure it's a great 
car.  Maybe it really is comparable to an BMW or Mercedes.  

But blast it, THAT'S NOT WHAT TESLA PROMISED FOR THE MODEL 3.  They promised 
an affordable EV.  Most of us assumed they meant something more or less 
comparable to a mid-range Toyota.  But that's not what Tesla delivered.  
Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S that doesn't get to use 
Superchargers for free.  

Some of us are not impressed.

In many other efforts, Tesla succeeded, but not in that one.  Maybe someday 
they will.  I hope so.

And that's all I have to say on this subject.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 16 Oct 2018 at 19:57, robert winfield via EV wrote:

> Maybe you forget how few years Tesla has been selling EV'sMaybe you don't know
> what you are talking about when you declare "they failed"

No, I don't forget.  Yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Tesla has done lots of good things.  They went where few automakers refused 
to go, showing them the way.  They built cars that in many ways are some of 
the best around, regardless of energy source.  For that, I admire them.  
Don't misunderstand me on that.

But when they set out to build a car that people of modest means (like me) 
could afford, I'm sorry, they failed.  

Maybe to all of you, $46k is chump change.  I'm glad for you.  But for 
millions of people worldwide, that's a lot of money.  The low income sector  
is the fastest growing class worldwide, and for SURE it is here in the 
States  

When a person is bringing in $25k or $30k or $35k a year and trying to 
support a family, and I personally know people in that situation, do you 
really want to encourage him to buy a $46k car that he can't afford?

And don't give me that nose-in-the-air rubbish about how they chose their 
lot.  Sometimes you do everything right and you still get what life hands 
you.

I gave you an example of what I consider an affordable car.  You dismissed 
it and said it wasn't comparable.  That's not the point. If you can't afford 
the more expensive car, it doesn't matter how good it is.  You're buying the 
cheaper one.  

The good news is that you're not totally shut out of the EV world.  Used 
Nissan Leaves and a few other models are now available in the US for 
reasonably affordable prices.  I don't know about other countries though, 
nor do I know how long the present glut of cheap Leaves will last.

I haven't driven a Model 3, probably never will, but I'm sure it's a great 
car.  Maybe it really is comparable to an BMW or Mercedes.  

But blast it, THAT'S NOT WHAT TESLA PROMISED FOR THE MODEL 3.  They promised 
an affordable EV.  Most of us assumed they meant something more or less 
comparable to a mid-range Toyota.  But that's not what Tesla delivered.  
Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S that doesn't get to use 
Superchargers for free.  

Some of us are not impressed.

In many other efforts, Tesla succeeded, but not in that one.  Maybe someday 
they will.  I hope so.

And that's all I have to say on this subject.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[paul dove via EV]

Best car hands down that I have ever driven.


  From: Willie via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
Cc: Willie 
 Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 1:22 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu
   


On 10/16/2018 12:21 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> On 16 Oct 2018 at 6:35, Paul Dove via EV wrote:
> 
>> A car manufacturer doesn't make a profit till the production line is
>> paid for.
> 
> Of course, but Tesla's declared intent from the start was to make enough
> money on the luxury models (X and S) that they could afford to introduce a
> more affordable "Tesla for the rest of us."
> 
> Apparently you disagree, but un my view, they failed.
> 
> Maybe they didn't make enough money on the pricey Teslas.  Maybe they blew
> too much on other stuff.  Maybe they tried to introduce the 3 too soon (and
> that could be because GM scooped them with the Bolt).  I don't know the
> reason, just that the "affordable" Tesla isn't, at least not now.
> 
> I find it interesting to compare Tesla's approach to Honda's -- granted that
> the latter is a much larger company.  When they launched the Accord in 1976,
> Honda priced it aggressively, to build demand.  They probably took a loss.
> The price rose in later years as it gained sales.
> 
> Similarly, Toyota took a loss on the early Prius.  I think that was also the
> case with the Nissan Leaf.  That's just what automakers have to do when they
> want a new and different vehicle to succeed. That and lots of advertising.
> 
> I understand that maybe Tesla can't afford to do the same, but I'm not sure
> they can succeed in the long run if they don't.  That's especially true in
> the US, which is regressing into a less EV-friendly market.
> 
> Maybe the "Tesla cachet" will carry them through, if they can maintain their
> reputation.  Time will tell.

I surprised at the Tesla negativity.  Especially from a group of 
supposed EV enthusiasts.  Tesla has been doing exactly as they've stated 
for many years.  They can be faulted ONLY for the schedule slippage.  Of 
course, it is still possible that they will fail to produce a $35k EV 
but I can see nothing that indicates that that may happen.  Tesla has 
been dragging other car makers, kicking and screaming, much against 
their inclinations, into the EV market.

Come on, you Tesla naysayers.  Tesla has produced more EVs than any 
other car maker.  And those EVs are FAR superior to anything else either 
offered or promised by other car makers.  Have the naysayers failed to 
test drive Teslas?
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[robert winfield via EV]

Maybe you forget how few years Tesla has been selling EV'sMaybe you don't know 
what you are talking about when you declare "they failed"Maybe you missed they 
have sold _OVER_1/4 MILLION vehicles, all connected to the mothershipMaybe you 
are incorrect.Maybe ___Maybe some of us, almost every one, just wants a 
turnkey vehicle, that just works
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:21 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:   On 16 Oct 2018 at 6:35, Paul Dove via EV wrote:

> A car manufacturer doesn't make a profit till the production line is
> paid for. 

Of course, but Tesla's declared intent from the start was to make enough 
money on the luxury models (X and S) that they could afford to introduce a 
more affordable "Tesla for the rest of us."  

Apparently you disagree, but un my view, they failed.  

Maybe they didn't make enough money on the pricey Teslas.  Maybe they blew 
too much on other stuff.  Maybe they tried to introduce the 3 too soon (and 
that could be because GM scooped them with the Bolt).  I don't know the 
reason, just that the "affordable" Tesla isn't, at least not now.

I find it interesting to compare Tesla's approach to Honda's -- granted that 
the latter is a much larger company.  When they launched the Accord in 1976, 
Honda priced it aggressively, to build demand.  They probably took a loss.  
The price rose in later years as it gained sales.

Similarly, Toyota took a loss on the early Prius.  I think that was also the 
case with the Nissan Leaf.  That's just what automakers have to do when they 
want a new and different vehicle to succeed. That and lots of advertising.

I understand that maybe Tesla can't afford to do the same, but I'm not sure 
they can succeed in the long run if they don't.  That's especially true in 
the US, which is regressing into a less EV-friendly market.

Maybe the "Tesla cachet" will carry them through, if they can maintain their 
reputation.  Time will tell.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Willie via EV]

On 10/16/2018 12:21 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 16 Oct 2018 at 6:35, Paul Dove via EV wrote:


A car manufacturer doesn't make a profit till the production line is
paid for.


Of course, but Tesla's declared intent from the start was to make enough
money on the luxury models (X and S) that they could afford to introduce a
more affordable "Tesla for the rest of us."

Apparently you disagree, but un my view, they failed.

Maybe they didn't make enough money on the pricey Teslas.  Maybe they blew
too much on other stuff.  Maybe they tried to introduce the 3 too soon (and
that could be because GM scooped them with the Bolt).  I don't know the
reason, just that the "affordable" Tesla isn't, at least not now.

I find it interesting to compare Tesla's approach to Honda's -- granted that
the latter is a much larger company.  When they launched the Accord in 1976,
Honda priced it aggressively, to build demand.  They probably took a loss.
The price rose in later years as it gained sales.

Similarly, Toyota took a loss on the early Prius.  I think that was also the
case with the Nissan Leaf.  That's just what automakers have to do when they
want a new and different vehicle to succeed. That and lots of advertising.

I understand that maybe Tesla can't afford to do the same, but I'm not sure
they can succeed in the long run if they don't.  That's especially true in
the US, which is regressing into a less EV-friendly market.

Maybe the "Tesla cachet" will carry them through, if they can maintain their
reputation.  Time will tell.


I surprised at the Tesla negativity.  Especially from a group of 
supposed EV enthusiasts.  Tesla has been doing exactly as they've stated 
for many years.  They can be faulted ONLY for the schedule slippage.  Of 
course, it is still possible that they will fail to produce a $35k EV 
but I can see nothing that indicates that that may happen.  Tesla has 
been dragging other car makers, kicking and screaming, much against 
their inclinations, into the EV market.


Come on, you Tesla naysayers.  Tesla has produced more EVs than any 
other car maker.  And those EVs are FAR superior to anything else either 
offered or promised by other car makers.  Have the naysayers failed to 
test drive Teslas?

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Damon Henry via EV]

Ooops I guess the tax thing was a different thread...

From: EV  on behalf of Damon Henry via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:37 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Damon Henry
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

Perhaps different parts of the US have different optics when it comes to EVs, 
but here in the Pacific NW I definitely do not see a "regression into a less 
EV-friendly market."  I have a saved Autotrader search here in the Portland 
area for used EVs.   It currently has 166 Used OEM EVs available for immediate 
purchase.  These are all OEM cars built within the last 7 years.  They run the 
gammit in price range from $8k for Chevy Spark, Fiat e500, and older Nissan 
Leifs into the $12k - $30K range for VW eGolf, BMW i3 and newer Leifs up to the 
$50k range for used Teslas.  There are other models available as well, but 
these are the bulk of what I could go buy today used... Of course they are all 
available brand new as well.  Besides that I am constantly reading about the 
next new EV that will be available some time within the next 5 years...

I'm very much looking forward to my next car purchase 

As far as the tax discussion that started this thread, all I can say is what a 
bunch of whiners.  These flat fees in my opinion have hit a reasonable balance. 
 By the way, you can still own an EV and not pay the tax, you just need to 
drive it on the private roads that you build and maintain yourself, no 
registration required.

Damon


From: EV  on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu



I understand that maybe Tesla can't afford to do the same, but I'm not sure
they can succeed in the long run if they don't.  That's especially true in
the US, which is regressing into a less EV-friendly market.

Maybe the "Tesla cachet" will carry them through, if they can maintain their
reputation.  Time will tell.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Damon Henry via EV]

Perhaps different parts of the US have different optics when it comes to EVs, 
but here in the Pacific NW I definitely do not see a "regression into a less 
EV-friendly market."  I have a saved Autotrader search here in the Portland 
area for used EVs.   It currently has 166 Used OEM EVs available for immediate 
purchase.  These are all OEM cars built within the last 7 years.  They run the 
gammit in price range from $8k for Chevy Spark, Fiat e500, and older Nissan 
Leifs into the $12k - $30K range for VW eGolf, BMW i3 and newer Leifs up to the 
$50k range for used Teslas.  There are other models available as well, but 
these are the bulk of what I could go buy today used... Of course they are all 
available brand new as well.  Besides that I am constantly reading about the 
next new EV that will be available some time within the next 5 years...

I'm very much looking forward to my next car purchase 

As far as the tax discussion that started this thread, all I can say is what a 
bunch of whiners.  These flat fees in my opinion have hit a reasonable balance. 
 By the way, you can still own an EV and not pay the tax, you just need to 
drive it on the private roads that you build and maintain yourself, no 
registration required.

Damon


From: EV  on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu



I understand that maybe Tesla can't afford to do the same, but I'm not sure
they can succeed in the long run if they don't.  That's especially true in
the US, which is regressing into a less EV-friendly market.

Maybe the "Tesla cachet" will carry them through, if they can maintain their
reputation.  Time will tell.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu - Success!

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Time didn't stop today. This is the first year of Model S.  And NO
manufacturer expects to recoup 100% of their production costs in just one
year of a new model line.  Geeze...  bob

The did exactly what they said.  They *introduced* the affordable EV for
the rest of us.  Sales will follow.  In fact, for September, the Model 3
is the #1 selling car in America...

Bob
-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via
EV
On 16 Oct 2018 at 6:35, Paul Dove via EV wrote:

> A car manufacturer doesn't make a profit till the production line is
> paid for.

Of course, but Tesla's declared intent from the start was to make enough
money on the luxury models (X and S) that they could afford to introduce a
more affordable "Tesla for the rest of us."

Apparently you disagree, but un my view, they failed.

Maybe they didn't make enough money on the pricey Teslas.  Maybe they blew
too much on other stuff.  Maybe they tried to introduce the 3 too soon
(and that could be because GM scooped them with the Bolt).  I don't know
the reason, just that the "affordable" Tesla isn't, at least not now.

I find it interesting to compare Tesla's approach to Honda's -- granted
that the latter is a much larger company.  When they launched the Accord
in 1976, Honda priced it aggressively, to build demand.  They probably
took a loss.
The price rose in later years as it gained sales.

Similarly, Toyota took a loss on the early Prius.  I think that was also
the case with the Nissan Leaf.  That's just what automakers have to do
when they want a new and different vehicle to succeed. That and lots of
advertising.

I understand that maybe Tesla can't afford to do the same, but I'm not
sure they can succeed in the long run if they don't.  That's especially
true in the US, which is regressing into a less EV-friendly market.

Maybe the "Tesla cachet" will carry them through, if they can maintain
their reputation.  Time will tell.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 16 Oct 2018 at 6:35, Paul Dove via EV wrote:

> A car manufacturer doesn't make a profit till the production line is
> paid for. 

Of course, but Tesla's declared intent from the start was to make enough 
money on the luxury models (X and S) that they could afford to introduce a 
more affordable "Tesla for the rest of us."  

Apparently you disagree, but un my view, they failed.  

Maybe they didn't make enough money on the pricey Teslas.  Maybe they blew 
too much on other stuff.  Maybe they tried to introduce the 3 too soon (and 
that could be because GM scooped them with the Bolt).  I don't know the 
reason, just that the "affordable" Tesla isn't, at least not now.

I find it interesting to compare Tesla's approach to Honda's -- granted that 
the latter is a much larger company.  When they launched the Accord in 1976, 
Honda priced it aggressively, to build demand.  They probably took a loss.  
The price rose in later years as it gained sales.

Similarly, Toyota took a loss on the early Prius.  I think that was also the 
case with the Nissan Leaf.  That's just what automakers have to do when they 
want a new and different vehicle to succeed. That and lots of advertising.

I understand that maybe Tesla can't afford to do the same, but I'm not sure 
they can succeed in the long run if they don't.  That's especially true in 
the US, which is regressing into a less EV-friendly market.

Maybe the "Tesla cachet" will carry them through, if they can maintain their 
reputation.  Time will tell.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Paul Dove via EV]

The model 3 comes with options but they are not available in the basic 
configuration yet they all come with large battery and premium interior. The 
machines that make vehicles are very expensive. A car manufacturer doesn’t make 
a profit till the production line is paid for. I am sure when he breaks that 
mark he will expand to make cheaper options. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 15, 2018, at 11:21 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 15 Oct 2018 at 15:05, paul dove via EV wrote:
>> 
>> Tesla is competing with Mercedes and BMW not Toyota. 
> 
> The X and S models were supposed to be the luxury class cars.  I thought the 
> 3 was supposed to be the long-promised "Tesla for the rest of us," an 
> affordable car. 
> 
> As far as I know, BMW and Mercedes don't offer any cars in the US that I, or 
> most people, would consider affordable.  (I'm not counting the Smart, as it 
> doesn't wear the right badge.)  
> 
> So if the Model 3 is officially competing in the BMW/Mercedes, it sure looks 
> like Tesla failed to achieve their goal of developing an affordable Tesla.  
> 
> Maybe next time?  After they get the new roadster and a few trucks out the 
> door?  
> 
> If Tesla survives Elon Musk's increasingly (self-)destructive behavior, that 
> is.  :-\
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 15 Oct 2018 at 15:05, paul dove via EV wrote:

> Tesla is competing with Mercedes and BMW not Toyota. 

The X and S models were supposed to be the luxury class cars.  I thought the 
3 was supposed to be the long-promised "Tesla for the rest of us," an 
affordable car. 

As far as I know, BMW and Mercedes don't offer any cars in the US that I, or 
most people, would consider affordable.  (I'm not counting the Smart, as it 
doesn't wear the right badge.)  

So if the Model 3 is officially competing in the BMW/Mercedes, it sure looks 
like Tesla failed to achieve their goal of developing an affordable Tesla.  

Maybe next time?  After they get the new roadster and a few trucks out the 
door?  

If Tesla survives Elon Musk's increasingly (self-)destructive behavior, that 
is.  :-\

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[paul dove via EV]

Yes, a model 3 is considered a mid-sized luxury car.


  From: Peri Hartman via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ; ev@lists.evdl.org 
Cc: Peri Hartman 
 Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2018 8:28 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu
   
According to this website, the average total price paid for a new car is 
$31500.
https://www.concannonbc.com/how-much-does-a-typical-american-actually-pay-for-a-car/

That average includes luxury models so I suspect the median price is 
somewhat lower. Either way, I would consider 46K substantially higher, 
meaning high priced for the average buyer of a new car.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 14-Oct-18 6:19:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

>
>
>On 10/14/2018 04:33 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:
>>I don’t know where you get this kind of thinking. They are not high 
>>priced cars. Mine was $46,000. A Toyota Highlander is $42,000 and a 
>>Subaru Ascent is $46,000. If you get a comparable car you will pay 
>>about the same.
>
>Interest piqued by your seemingly low price for a low end Model 3, I 
>just checked the Tesla website.  The lowest priced available Model 3  
>to order is $49,000.  Delivery, etc is another $1,200. State sales tax 
>will likely be about $3,000.  So, $54,200.  Order by 10/15/18 to be 
>assured of delivery in 2018 and you should get a $7,500 federal tax 
>credit though the $54,200 will be due before delivery time.  Final 
>amount: $46,700.  Close enough to your quote.  OTOH, that does not 
>include AutoPilot.  A Tesla should not be bought without AutoPilot, 
>IMHO.
>
>There has been some recent scuttlebutt about some Model 3s being 
>available as "inventory" cars at a discount of a $1,000 or more.  The 
>inventory cars are not likely to be without options.  That is, they may 
>not get below $46,000.
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[paul dove via EV]

Tesla is competing with Mercedes and BMW not Toyota. 
US BMW 3 & 4 Series Sales Roll Down Hill | CleanTechnica
  
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US BMW 3 & 4 Series Sales Roll Down Hill | CleanTechnica
 Cover your eyes if you don't want to see something nasty. Following this 
sentence are two charts showing a c...  |   |

  |

  |

 


  From: EVDL Administrator via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: EVDL Administrator 
 Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 1:45 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu
   
On 15 Oct 2018 at 1:27, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> According to this website, the average total price paid for a new car is
> $31500.

Well, since someone compared the Tesla 3 to a couple of ICEVs, I might point 
out that a Prius (a perfectly acceptable ICEV, in my book) starts at under 
$25k and tops out at around $31k.  

That's the range I think of when you say "affordable."  Not $46k.  

I know, Tesla fans will say the 3 is a better car in most ways.  They're 
probably right.  But if we're ignoring the fact that it's an EV, and just 
judging it as a car, honestly, I doubt that the Tesla is better in any way 
I'd particularly care about.  Certainly, again ignoring EV-ness, not worth 
paying 50% more for.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Tom Hudson via EV]

Agreed. My model 3 was $43.5k when the rebate is considered. I paid $35k for my 
45-mile range Solectria Force in 1997. The fact that I can get a 300+ mile 
range for LESS money considering inflation is almost laughable. Expensive? I 
think not.
-Tom
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: paul dove via EV  
Date: 10/14/18  5:33 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 Cc: paul dove  Subject: Re: [EVDL] 
Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu 
I don’t know where you get this kind of thinking. They are not high priced 
cars. Mine was $46,000. A Toyota Highlander is $42,000 and a Subaru Ascent is 
$46,000. If you get a comparable car you will pay about the same.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 14, 2018, at 8:45 AM, mark hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Lee Wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> “It only works if you get every single detail right. That's expensive. You
> can afford it for luxury cars where there is enough money to do it right.
> But I have serious doubts that it can be scaled to mass-produce cheap EVs.
> They'll get beat by the first company to figure out the best way to use far
> smaller numbers of much bigger cells.
> 
> 
> 
> Complex solutions always come first. Simple solutions take longer to
> perfect; but usually win out in the end.”
> 
>> 
> 
> Exactly Lee! So probably the real reason I won’t buy a Tesla is I can’t
> afford one (because of the thousands of itty bitty cells that make it
> expensive to manufacturer).  I’m still concerned about the long term
> reliability and business model of a lower cost (aprox $30K) car that can’t
> afford to have “Tesla Rangers” field service guys running out to your house
> when the battery burps – like they do now on the high priced Teslas to cover
> up the issues.  As far as I know they haven’t shipped any lower priced Tesla
> 3’s and would be surprised if they could turn a profit *without going to
> large format cells like all other EV manufacturers*.  Not sure if Elon
> Musk’s Ego will let him  make that change though, like Edison with DC who
> had to be forced out of GE (When Tesla had a better idea with AC) Déjà Vu
> 
> 
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Message: 6
> 
> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:22:45 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
> 
> From: Lee Hart 
> 
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla
> 
> Message-ID:
> 
>  <20404926.1563.1539368565...@wamui-sassy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> 
> 
> Rod Hower via EV wrote:
> 
>>>> You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have
> 
>>>> millions of transistors with the potential of failure...
> 
> 
> 
> David Roden wrote:
> 
>>> I don't think it's quite the same. The microcontroller has lots
> 
>>> of semiconductors, but they're all formed at one go on one
> 
>>> substrate. OTOH, the lithium cells are individual units,
> 
>>> manufactured individually, with individually welded connections.   
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> I too was skeptical about the Tesla ant colony battery construction
> 
>>> -- which IIRC actually was used in earlier EVs with much less
> 
>>> publicity and far lower production numbers. I believe the T-Zero
> 
>>> Roadster was one of them.  
> 
> 
> 
> Paul Dove wrote
> 
>> It?s called sarcasm! 
> 
> 
> 
> (smiles) so true... but it's hard to recognize sarcasm when folks aren't
> familiar with the actual situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Putting lots of parts on the same chip means the reliability of each part is
> closely related to the rest. If one part is good, they're all good. If one
> transistor is weak, or one resistor has a resistance too low, they are ALL
> are weak or low resistance. And when one part fails, they all likely to
> fail.
> 
> 
> 
> Same for batteries. Yes, a big cell is really a lot of small cells inside.
> It may have multiple plates wired in parallel, or one big plate folded or
> rolled into a cylinder (any piece of which would have been a fine cell in
> its own right). All these little cells were manufactured at the same time,
> and are "identical twins". Then they all get put in one big case, which
> seals the whole lot of them. This means they will all be kept together, at
> the same temperature, and experience the same charging and discharging
> regimen.
> 
> 
> 
> Contrast that with individual cells. When they started mass-producing cheap
> 18650 lithium cells for laptops, many people independently came up with the
> idea of using thousands of them to build an EV pack. The initial attempts
> wer

Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Willie via EV]

On 10/15/2018 08:08 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Yes, I assume the order-by-15-Oct deadline is to get a guaranteed tesla
delivery before 31 Dec.

But I bet as the end of year approaches a lot of people will be looking
over avaiable inventory and snapping them up.

At first I was thinking Tesla would offer some incentives, but then I
realize it does not matter much to them if people meet the deadline or not,
because the difference in rebate is on the customer, not them.


I think it is unlikely Tesla will have any extra cars available for 
sale/delivery near the end of the year.  If they DO have extra cars near 
the end of the year, they will want to get them sold/delivered before 
the end of the year.  That is because of diminished demand in 2019 
without the full tax credit.  Though I think that diminished demand will 
be minimal.


So, I agree that one should not be looking for any end of year Tesla deals.

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Yes, I assume the order-by-15-Oct deadline is to get a guaranteed tesla
delivery before 31 Dec.

But I bet as the end of year approaches a lot of people will be looking
over avaiable inventory and snapping them up.

At first I was thinking Tesla would offer some incentives, but then I
realize it does not matter much to them if people meet the deadline or not,
because the difference in rebate is on the customer, not them.



bob



On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 9:19 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:



On 10/14/2018 04:33 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:

I don’t know where you get this kind of thinking. They are not high priced
cars. Mine was $46,000. A Toyota Highlander is $42,000 and a Subaru Ascent
is $46,000. If you get a comparable car you will pay about the same.


Interest piqued by your seemingly low price for a low end Model 3, I just
checked the Tesla website.  The lowest priced available Model 3  to order
is $49,000.  Delivery, etc is another $1,200. State sales tax will likely
be about $3,000.  So, $54,200.  Order by 10/15/18 to be assured of delivery
in 2018 and you should get a $7,500 federal tax credit though the $54,200
will be due before delivery time.  Final amount: $46,700.  Close enough to
your quote.  OTOH, that does not include AutoPilot.  A Tesla should not be
bought without AutoPilot, IMHO.

There has been some recent scuttlebutt about some Model 3s being available
as "inventory" cars at a discount of a $1,000 or more.  The inventory cars
are not likely to be without options.  That is, they may not get below
$46,000.
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 15 Oct 2018 at 1:27, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> According to this website, the average total price paid for a new car is
> $31500.

Well, since someone compared the Tesla 3 to a couple of ICEVs, I might point 
out that a Prius (a perfectly acceptable ICEV, in my book) starts at under 
$25k and tops out at around $31k.  

That's the range I think of when you say "affordable."  Not $46k.  

I know, Tesla fans will say the 3 is a better car in most ways.  They're 
probably right.  But if we're ignoring the fact that it's an EV, and just 
judging it as a car, honestly, I doubt that the Tesla is better in any way 
I'd particularly care about.  Certainly, again ignoring EV-ness, not worth 
paying 50% more for.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

No, Blue book reports the average price is $35,200:
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/average-new-car-prices-jump-2-percent-for-march-2018-on-suv-sales-strength-according-to-kelley-blue-book-300623110.html

And that tracks well with it being $34,000 in 2015, etc
and $33k in 2013, etc

bob


On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 9:27 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> According to this website, the average total price paid for a new car is
> $31500.
> https://www.concannonbc.com/how-much-does-a-typical-american
> -actually-pay-for-a-car/
>
> That average includes luxury models so I suspect the median price is
> somewhat lower. Either way, I would consider 46K substantially higher,
> meaning high priced for the average buyer of a new car.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Willie via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Willie" 
> Sent: 14-Oct-18 6:19:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu
>
>
>>
>> On 10/14/2018 04:33 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:
>>
>>> I don’t know where you get this kind of thinking. They are not high
>>> priced cars. Mine was $46,000. A Toyota Highlander is $42,000 and a Subaru
>>> Ascent is $46,000. If you get a comparable car you will pay about the same.
>>>
>>
>> Interest piqued by your seemingly low price for a low end Model 3, I just
>> checked the Tesla website.  The lowest priced available Model 3  to order
>> is $49,000.  Delivery, etc is another $1,200. State sales tax will likely
>> be about $3,000.  So, $54,200.  Order by 10/15/18 to be assured of delivery
>> in 2018 and you should get a $7,500 federal tax credit though the $54,200
>> will be due before delivery time.  Final amount: $46,700.  Close enough to
>> your quote.  OTOH, that does not include AutoPilot.  A Tesla should not be
>> bought without AutoPilot, IMHO.
>>
>> There has been some recent scuttlebutt about some Model 3s being
>> available as "inventory" cars at a discount of a $1,000 or more.  The
>> inventory cars are not likely to be without options.  That is, they may not
>> get below $46,000.
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>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Peri Hartman via EV]

According to this website, the average total price paid for a new car is 
$31500.

https://www.concannonbc.com/how-much-does-a-typical-american-actually-pay-for-a-car/

That average includes luxury models so I suspect the median price is 
somewhat lower. Either way, I would consider 46K substantially higher, 
meaning high priced for the average buyer of a new car.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 14-Oct-18 6:19:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu




On 10/14/2018 04:33 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:
I don’t know where you get this kind of thinking. They are not high 
priced cars. Mine was $46,000. A Toyota Highlander is $42,000 and a 
Subaru Ascent is $46,000. If you get a comparable car you will pay 
about the same.


Interest piqued by your seemingly low price for a low end Model 3, I 
just checked the Tesla website.  The lowest priced available Model 3  
to order is $49,000.  Delivery, etc is another $1,200. State sales tax 
will likely be about $3,000.  So, $54,200.  Order by 10/15/18 to be 
assured of delivery in 2018 and you should get a $7,500 federal tax 
credit though the $54,200 will be due before delivery time.  Final 
amount: $46,700.  Close enough to your quote.  OTOH, that does not 
include AutoPilot.  A Tesla should not be bought without AutoPilot, 
IMHO.


There has been some recent scuttlebutt about some Model 3s being 
available as "inventory" cars at a discount of a $1,000 or more.  The 
inventory cars are not likely to be without options.  That is, they may 
not get below $46,000.

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Willie via EV]

On 10/14/2018 04:33 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:

I don’t know where you get this kind of thinking. They are not high priced 
cars. Mine was $46,000. A Toyota Highlander is $42,000 and a Subaru Ascent is 
$46,000. If you get a comparable car you will pay about the same.


Interest piqued by your seemingly low price for a low end Model 3, I 
just checked the Tesla website.  The lowest priced available Model 3  to 
order is $49,000.  Delivery, etc is another $1,200. State sales tax will 
likely be about $3,000.  So, $54,200.  Order by 10/15/18 to be assured 
of delivery in 2018 and you should get a $7,500 federal tax credit 
though the $54,200 will be due before delivery time.  Final amount: 
$46,700.  Close enough to your quote.  OTOH, that does not include 
AutoPilot.  A Tesla should not be bought without AutoPilot, IMHO.


There has been some recent scuttlebutt about some Model 3s being 
available as "inventory" cars at a discount of a $1,000 or more.  The 
inventory cars are not likely to be without options.  That is, they may 
not get below $46,000.

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[paul dove via EV]

I don’t know where you get this kind of thinking. They are not high priced 
cars. Mine was $46,000. A Toyota Highlander is $42,000 and a Subaru Ascent is 
$46,000. If you get a comparable car you will pay about the same.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 14, 2018, at 8:45 AM, mark hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Lee Wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> “It only works if you get every single detail right. That's expensive. You
> can afford it for luxury cars where there is enough money to do it right.
> But I have serious doubts that it can be scaled to mass-produce cheap EVs.
> They'll get beat by the first company to figure out the best way to use far
> smaller numbers of much bigger cells.
> 
> 
> 
> Complex solutions always come first. Simple solutions take longer to
> perfect; but usually win out in the end.”
> 
>> 
> 
> Exactly Lee! So probably the real reason I won’t buy a Tesla is I can’t
> afford one (because of the thousands of itty bitty cells that make it
> expensive to manufacturer).  I’m still concerned about the long term
> reliability and business model of a lower cost (aprox $30K) car that can’t
> afford to have “Tesla Rangers” field service guys running out to your house
> when the battery burps – like they do now on the high priced Teslas to cover
> up the issues.  As far as I know they haven’t shipped any lower priced Tesla
> 3’s and would be surprised if they could turn a profit *without going to
> large format cells like all other EV manufacturers*.  Not sure if Elon
> Musk’s Ego will let him  make that change though, like Edison with DC who
> had to be forced out of GE (When Tesla had a better idea with AC) Déjà Vu
> 
> 
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Message: 6
> 
> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:22:45 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
> 
> From: Lee Hart 
> 
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla
> 
> Message-ID:
> 
>  <20404926.1563.1539368565...@wamui-sassy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> 
> 
> Rod Hower via EV wrote:
> 
>>>> You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have
> 
>>>> millions of transistors with the potential of failure...
> 
> 
> 
> David Roden wrote:
> 
>>> I don't think it's quite the same. The microcontroller has lots
> 
>>> of semiconductors, but they're all formed at one go on one
> 
>>> substrate. OTOH, the lithium cells are individual units,
> 
>>> manufactured individually, with individually welded connections.   
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> I too was skeptical about the Tesla ant colony battery construction
> 
>>> -- which IIRC actually was used in earlier EVs with much less
> 
>>> publicity and far lower production numbers. I believe the T-Zero
> 
>>> Roadster was one of them.  
> 
> 
> 
> Paul Dove wrote
> 
>> It?s called sarcasm! 
> 
> 
> 
> (smiles) so true... but it's hard to recognize sarcasm when folks aren't
> familiar with the actual situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Putting lots of parts on the same chip means the reliability of each part is
> closely related to the rest. If one part is good, they're all good. If one
> transistor is weak, or one resistor has a resistance too low, they are ALL
> are weak or low resistance. And when one part fails, they all likely to
> fail.
> 
> 
> 
> Same for batteries. Yes, a big cell is really a lot of small cells inside.
> It may have multiple plates wired in parallel, or one big plate folded or
> rolled into a cylinder (any piece of which would have been a fine cell in
> its own right). All these little cells were manufactured at the same time,
> and are "identical twins". Then they all get put in one big case, which
> seals the whole lot of them. This means they will all be kept together, at
> the same temperature, and experience the same charging and discharging
> regimen.
> 
> 
> 
> Contrast that with individual cells. When they started mass-producing cheap
> 18650 lithium cells for laptops, many people independently came up with the
> idea of using thousands of them to build an EV pack. The initial attempts
> were failures, because there were too many differences between cells. Lots
> of failures and fires. Alan Cocconi is the first person I heard of that
> succeeded with them in his tZero. It required carefully matched cells, and a
> BMS to individually monitor them. The tZero inspired the Tesla Roadster, and
> led to their subsequent EVs.
> 
> 
> 
> It only works if you get every single detail right. That's expensive. You
> can afford it for luxury cars where there is enough money to do it

Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Willie via EV]

On 10/14/2018 08:45 AM, mark hanson via EV wrote:

I believe you have consistently made a couple of assertions that I 
consider to be erroneous.  If you can cite sources to support, I would 
be eager to see them.


Exactly Lee! So probably the real reason I won’t buy a Tesla is I can’t
afford one (because of the thousands of itty bitty cells that make it
expensive to manufacturer).  I’m still concerned about the long term


By all accounts and estimates I've seen, the Tesla batteries are FAR 
cheaper than any competition.



reliability and business model of a lower cost (aprox $30K) car that can’t
afford to have “Tesla Rangers” field service guys running out to your house
when the battery burps – like they do now on the high priced Teslas to cover


You have at least twice said or implied that Tesla does traction battery 
repairs in customer driveways.  That is emphatically not the case.  Even 
service centers do not work on traction batteries.  They are removed and 
replaced at service centers but all traction batteries in need of 
repair/refurbishment are sent to California.  Perhaps you have confused 
12v lead batteries with traction batteries.  Rangers DO routinely 
replace 12v batteries in customer's driveways.  That along with many 
other minor repairs.  I KNOW the Ranger service is cheaper and more 
convenient for customers.  I BELIEVE it is probably cheaper for Tesla to 
deal with minor repairs in that way.



up the issues.  As far as I know they haven’t shipped any lower priced Tesla
3’s and would be surprised if they could turn a profit *without going to
large format cells like all other EV manufacturers*.  Not sure if Elon
Musk’s Ego will let him  make that change though, like Edison with DC who
had to be forced out of GE (When Tesla had a better idea with AC) Déjà Vu


A very odd view.  Tesla IS vested in small cells.  The results have been 
spectacular.  Not only in cars but in grid storage.  Can you point me to 
an EV manufacturer who has been even close to as successful as Tesla? 
Something like 250k cars delivered in the USA.  Maybe 100k+ to other 
places in the world.  Each and every one with small cells.  Many have 
reached several hundred thousand miles of service.  I contend that Tesla 
will continue to use small lithium cells until something better comes 
along.  You saying that large format cells are better/cheaper does not 
make it so.


You seem to complain that Tesla is satisfying the high profit high end 
part of the market before it goes after the low/mid range?  A reasonable 
business strategy I would call it.  Anything else could put the 
company's survival at risk.  I agree that a $35k Model 3 will not be 
available until sometime in 2019.


I have to say that I was initially skeptical of Tesla's use of small 
LiCo cells.  I thought we would be having numerous fires and Tesla would 
be bankrupt.  I freely admit now that I was initially wrong.  We can 
mostly thank old EVDLer JB Straubel for Tesla's engineering excellence.



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[EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[mark hanson via EV]

Lee Wrote: 

 

“It only works if you get every single detail right. That's expensive. You
can afford it for luxury cars where there is enough money to do it right.
But I have serious doubts that it can be scaled to mass-produce cheap EVs.
They'll get beat by the first company to figure out the best way to use far
smaller numbers of much bigger cells.

 

Complex solutions always come first. Simple solutions take longer to
perfect; but usually win out in the end.”

> 

Exactly Lee! So probably the real reason I won’t buy a Tesla is I can’t
afford one (because of the thousands of itty bitty cells that make it
expensive to manufacturer).  I’m still concerned about the long term
reliability and business model of a lower cost (aprox $30K) car that can’t
afford to have “Tesla Rangers” field service guys running out to your house
when the battery burps – like they do now on the high priced Teslas to cover
up the issues.  As far as I know they haven’t shipped any lower priced Tesla
3’s and would be surprised if they could turn a profit *without going to
large format cells like all other EV manufacturers*.  Not sure if Elon
Musk’s Ego will let him  make that change though, like Edison with DC who
had to be forced out of GE (When Tesla had a better idea with AC) Déjà Vu

 

Mark

 

 

Message: 6

Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:22:45 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

From: Lee Hart 

To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 

Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Message-ID:

  <20404926.1563.1539368565...@wamui-sassy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

 

Rod Hower via EV wrote:

>>> You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have

>>> millions of transistors with the potential of failure...

 

David Roden wrote:

>> I don't think it's quite the same. The microcontroller has lots

>> of semiconductors, but they're all formed at one go on one

>> substrate. OTOH, the lithium cells are individual units,

>> manufactured individually, with individually welded connections.   

>> 

>> I too was skeptical about the Tesla ant colony battery construction

>> -- which IIRC actually was used in earlier EVs with much less

>> publicity and far lower production numbers. I believe the T-Zero

>> Roadster was one of them.  

 

Paul Dove wrote

> It?s called sarcasm! 

 

(smiles) so true... but it's hard to recognize sarcasm when folks aren't
familiar with the actual situation.

 

Putting lots of parts on the same chip means the reliability of each part is
closely related to the rest. If one part is good, they're all good. If one
transistor is weak, or one resistor has a resistance too low, they are ALL
are weak or low resistance. And when one part fails, they all likely to
fail.

 

Same for batteries. Yes, a big cell is really a lot of small cells inside.
It may have multiple plates wired in parallel, or one big plate folded or
rolled into a cylinder (any piece of which would have been a fine cell in
its own right). All these little cells were manufactured at the same time,
and are "identical twins". Then they all get put in one big case, which
seals the whole lot of them. This means they will all be kept together, at
the same temperature, and experience the same charging and discharging
regimen.

 

Contrast that with individual cells. When they started mass-producing cheap
18650 lithium cells for laptops, many people independently came up with the
idea of using thousands of them to build an EV pack. The initial attempts
were failures, because there were too many differences between cells. Lots
of failures and fires. Alan Cocconi is the first person I heard of that
succeeded with them in his tZero. It required carefully matched cells, and a
BMS to individually monitor them. The tZero inspired the Tesla Roadster, and
led to their subsequent EVs.

 

It only works if you get every single detail right. That's expensive. You
can afford it for luxury cars where there is enough money to do it right.
But I have serious doubts that it can be scaled to mass-produce cheap EVs.
They'll get beat by the first company to figure out the best way to use far
smaller numbers of much bigger cells.

 

Complex solutions always come first. Simple solutions take longer to
perfect; but usually win out in the end.

 

 

--

Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James

--

Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com

 

 

 

Have a renewable energy day,

 

Mark

 

Mark E. Hanson

184 Vista Lane

Fincastle, VA 24090

540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell

REEVA: community service RE & EV project club

Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)

UL Certified PV Installer

My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh 

FREE Solar EV Charging! ; http://www.WeatherLink.com/user/MarkHansonREEVA 

 

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[robert winfield via EV]

Perhaps a simple solution is to figure how to carefully control 2,000,000,000 
(2 billion) 18650's and 2170's Li batteries with excellent microcontrollers for 
temp, charge/discharge, etc. by putting them into, so far, 250,000 individual 
vehicles that _all_ are monitored in _surreal_ time by the mothership in real 
world conditions, beta testing in real world, that seems to point to small 
individual monitored cells better, prismatic and pouch cells, not so 
good.Remember betamax vs VHS?VHS won because they overwhelmed competition.Also, 
Tesla, just in 2018, used over 84% of Li batteries thru September for 100% 
EV's(100,000 model 3's so far)

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 11:22 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:   
Rod Hower via EV wrote:
>>> You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have
>>> millions of transistors with the potential of failure...

David Roden wrote:
>> I don't think it's quite the same. The microcontroller has lots
>> of semiconductors, but they're all formed at one go on one
>> substrate. OTOH, the lithium cells are individual units,
>> manufactured individually, with individually welded connections.  
>> 
>> I too was skeptical about the Tesla ant colony battery construction
>> -- which IIRC actually was used in earlier EVs with much less
>> publicity and far lower production numbers. I believe the T-Zero
>> Roadster was one of them.  

Paul Dove wrote
> It’s called sarcasm! 

(smiles) so true... but it's hard to recognize sarcasm when folks aren't 
familiar with the actual situation.

Putting lots of parts on the same chip means the reliability of each part is 
closely related to the rest. If one part is good, they're all good. If one 
transistor is weak, or one resistor has a resistance too low, they are ALL are 
weak or low resistance. And when one part fails, they all likely to fail.

Same for batteries. Yes, a big cell is really a lot of small cells inside. It 
may have multiple plates wired in parallel, or one big plate folded or rolled 
into a cylinder (any piece of which would have been a fine cell in its own 
right). All these little cells were manufactured at the same time, and are 
"identical twins". Then they all get put in one big case, which seals the whole 
lot of them. This means they will all be kept together, at the same 
temperature, and experience the same charging and discharging regimen.

Contrast that with individual cells. When they started mass-producing cheap 
18650 lithium cells for laptops, many people independently came up with the 
idea of using thousands of them to build an EV pack. The initial attempts were 
failures, because there were too many differences between cells. Lots of 
failures and fires. Alan Cocconi is the first person I heard of that succeeded 
with them in his tZero. It required carefully matched cells, and a BMS to 
individually monitor them. The tZero inspired the Tesla Roadster, and led to 
their subsequent EVs.

It only works if you get every single detail right. That's expensive. You can 
afford it for luxury cars where there is enough money to do it right. But I 
have serious doubts that it can be scaled to mass-produce cheap EVs. They'll 
get beat by the first company to figure out the best way to use far smaller 
numbers of much bigger cells.

Complex solutions always come first. Simple solutions take longer to perfect; 
but usually win out in the end.


--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[robert winfield via EV]

I would also suggest the simpler solutions are winning out.Look at PV and micro 
and nanogrids and DER's (distributed Energy) and nascent VPP'sVery robust 
failure modes.Many point source power generatorsWhy transmit electrons miles 
when 50 ft or less will do.If 1-2 18650's or 2170's fail or "get weird" no big 
deal.If 1-2 pouch or prismatic's get funky, big deal
But I have serious doubts that it can be scaled to mass-produce cheap EVs. 
They'll get beat by the first company to figure out the best way to use far 
smaller numb

Complex solutions always come first. Simple solutions take longer to perfect; 
but usually win out i

  
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[Lee Hart via EV]

Rod Hower via EV wrote:
>>> You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have
>>> millions of transistors with the potential of failure...

David Roden wrote:
>> I don't think it's quite the same. The microcontroller has lots
>> of semiconductors, but they're all formed at one go on one
>> substrate. OTOH, the lithium cells are individual units,
>> manufactured individually, with individually welded connections.   
>> 
>> I too was skeptical about the Tesla ant colony battery construction
>> -- which IIRC actually was used in earlier EVs with much less
>> publicity and far lower production numbers. I believe the T-Zero
>> Roadster was one of them.  

Paul Dove wrote
> It’s called sarcasm! 

(smiles) so true... but it's hard to recognize sarcasm when folks aren't 
familiar with the actual situation.

Putting lots of parts on the same chip means the reliability of each part is 
closely related to the rest. If one part is good, they're all good. If one 
transistor is weak, or one resistor has a resistance too low, they are ALL are 
weak or low resistance. And when one part fails, they all likely to fail.

Same for batteries. Yes, a big cell is really a lot of small cells inside. It 
may have multiple plates wired in parallel, or one big plate folded or rolled 
into a cylinder (any piece of which would have been a fine cell in its own 
right). All these little cells were manufactured at the same time, and are 
"identical twins". Then they all get put in one big case, which seals the whole 
lot of them. This means they will all be kept together, at the same 
temperature, and experience the same charging and discharging regimen.

Contrast that with individual cells. When they started mass-producing cheap 
18650 lithium cells for laptops, many people independently came up with the 
idea of using thousands of them to build an EV pack. The initial attempts were 
failures, because there were too many differences between cells. Lots of 
failures and fires. Alan Cocconi is the first person I heard of that succeeded 
with them in his tZero. It required carefully matched cells, and a BMS to 
individually monitor them. The tZero inspired the Tesla Roadster, and led to 
their subsequent EVs.

It only works if you get every single detail right. That's expensive. You can 
afford it for luxury cars where there is enough money to do it right. But I 
have serious doubts that it can be scaled to mass-produce cheap EVs. They'll 
get beat by the first company to figure out the best way to use far smaller 
numbers of much bigger cells.

Complex solutions always come first. Simple solutions take longer to perfect; 
but usually win out in the end.


--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[Paul Dove via EV]

It’s called sarcasm! 

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 10, 2018, at 8:38 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 9 Oct 2018 at 0:28, Rod Hower via EV wrote:
>> 
>> You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have millions
>> of transistors with the potential of failure, better stick with the
>> bipolar transistor!  
> 
> I'm not an engineer, so correct me if this doesn't make sense, but I don't 
> think it's quite the same.  The microcontroller has lots of semiconductors, 
> but they're all formed at one go on one substrate. OTOH, the lithium cells 
> are individual units, manufactured individually, with individually welded (I 
> think) connections.   
> 
> I too was skeptical about the Tesla ant colony battery construction -- which 
> IIRC actually was used in earlier EVs with much less publicity and far lower 
> production numbers.  I believe the T-Zero Roadster was one of them.  
> 
> However, in the real world, they seem to get better results than I expected. 
> Bravo for them.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 9 Oct 2018 at 0:28, Rod Hower via EV wrote:

> You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have millions
> of transistors with the potential of failure, better stick with the
> bipolar transistor!  

I'm not an engineer, so correct me if this doesn't make sense, but I don't 
think it's quite the same.  The microcontroller has lots of semiconductors, 
but they're all formed at one go on one substrate. OTOH, the lithium cells 
are individual units, manufactured individually, with individually welded (I 
think) connections.   

I too was skeptical about the Tesla ant colony battery construction -- which 
IIRC actually was used in earlier EVs with much less publicity and far lower 
production numbers.  I believe the T-Zero Roadster was one of them.  

However, in the real world, they seem to get better results than I expected. 
Bravo for them.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

I guess safety is also included in the 'surveillance' electronics that are
incorporated in a Tesla...

https://jalopnik.com/how-tesla-made-the-model-3-so-safe-1829610576
and
https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-xs-sand-rollover-test-is-fascinating-182620
7350

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV.com





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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

Readings of the owners forums indicate that complete battery failures on
Teslas are quite rare. They have a good redundancy model of parallel cells
within a module, with 14-16 large modules that are in series to provide
350-400v DC, and thermal regulation.

There are issues, however:

-diagnostics software is unavailable to people outside of Tesla (except
maybe in Massachusetts which has a right to repair law). This software is
needed to perform certain diagnostics and repairs. It is akin to Toyota
Techstream being required to fix certain errors on modern Toyotas.
(Techstream, in contrast, is available to third parties across the world.)
This is a fairly closed ecosystem.

-limited parts availability (a growing pains issue, that in some cases is
made worse by not having multiple distributors or aftermarket parts to
choose from).

-Supercharger access can be remotely disabled after purchase. This is known
to have happened for cars that have been in accidents (however big or
small, whether just cosmetic only or not) where Tesla hasn't been engaged
and paid to reinspect and repair the car.

-firmware cannot be reverted to earlier versions in case of issues or
preferences for earlier feature sets (at least, reversion cannot be done by
regular owners, and isn't something Service Centers can do either.
Supposedly only corporate engineers can do it.)

-door handles on Model S are now at a 3rd revision. Maybe Tesla will find a
solution that reduces electromechanical complexity using what they've
learned with X and 3.

-MCU memory storage wear, possibly due to excessive log writes in early
firmware. Supposed to be reduced in recent firmware.

-MCU bubbles and adhesive dripping issues on earlier model years.

-MCU yellowing on the left and right sides, most noticeable with a white
background, on both S and X, and reported on both MCU1 and MCU2. This is
mostly a cosmetic issue.

-12v battery life may vary. Some reports indicate suboptimal charging
voltages and frequency. Some owners have added battery maintainers. Cars
with 100 kWh packs are reported to have a dedicated 12v feed direct from
the main pack that reduces load on the 12v battery.

-reports of control arm issues on earlier model years (ball joint corrosion
and cracking). Corrosion may be worse in some climates and road treatment
conditions.

-unclear what will happen for owners in cases of greater than average
battery degradation (but not outright failure) (this seems unusual in
general but there is evidence that some '90' packs are losing capacity
faster than normal.) '90' packs have gone through several revisions. The
'90' packs are reported to include silicon in the cell chemistry.

-discrepancies in advertised capacity vs actual capacity. '90' packs store
less than 90 kWh. '100' packs store over 100 kWh. The '100' pack has a lot
more range than the '90'; more than the basic numerical difference would
suggest.

-unclear what will happen for owners who have paid for FSD/full self
driving capability, if it turns out the car sensor hardware cannot support
it, even after upgrading the Autopilot computer to say AP3. (The AP3
computer is currently under development.) The answer may be different for
customers who included the capability with their original order, on the
Monroney label vs those who enabled it post-delivery. The AP2 sensor
hardware on cars sold to customers starting in late 2016 was advertised as
being FSD-ready.



On Mon, Oct 8, 2018, 20:12 George E Swartz via EV  wrote:

> I didn't like the idea of thousands of little cells either, when I first
> looked at the Tesla design.
>
> The key word here is "availability", not MTBF, or reliability. The Tesla
> battery can withstand many single point failures without affecting
> performance or operation of the car, therefore the car remains available
> in spite of failures.  Individual Tesla cells are also fused which reduces
> fire danger. Single point failures in large format batteries cause greater
> percentage degradation per failure.
>
> I had a career in public transportation and availability of rolling stock
> is a very important aspect of any fleet of buses.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Wow, huge misunderstanding of "reliability"..
> >
> > There is a huge difference between the poor reliability of large numbers
> > of
> > single-point failures compared to the HUGE redundancy in the Tesla
> battery
> > with dozens of parallel redundancy at each step of the battery.  I'd take
> > the Tesla design any  day as being far more reliable...
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >  On Monday, October 8, 2018 3:45 PM, Mark Hanson via EV
> > 
> > wrote:
> >
> >  Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is
> > they're
> > the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in
> an
> > onroad vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the
> > complexity of monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer
> Reports
> > gave it high marks for handling etc, they gave it a low 

Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[George E Swartz via EV]

I didn't like the idea of thousands of little cells either, when I first
looked at the Tesla design.

The key word here is "availability", not MTBF, or reliability. The Tesla
battery can withstand many single point failures without affecting
performance or operation of the car, therefore the car remains available
in spite of failures.  Individual Tesla cells are also fused which reduces
fire danger. Single point failures in large format batteries cause greater
percentage degradation per failure.

I had a career in public transportation and availability of rolling stock
is a very important aspect of any fleet of buses.








> Wow, huge misunderstanding of "reliability"..
>
> There is a huge difference between the poor reliability of large numbers
> of
> single-point failures compared to the HUGE redundancy in the Tesla battery
> with dozens of parallel redundancy at each step of the battery.  I'd take
> the Tesla design any  day as being far more reliable...
>
> Bob
>
>
>  On Monday, October 8, 2018 3:45 PM, Mark Hanson via EV
> 
> wrote:
>
>  Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is
> they're
> the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in an
> onroad vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the
> complexity of monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer Reports
> gave it high marks for handling etc, they gave it a low score for
> reliability.  Currently they send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a
> battery field repair as this cost is built into the price of a pricey car.
> I don't know how this business model will work on lower prices $30k
> versions.  I'm surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty
> bitty cells in a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for
> reliability
> reasons (even with each one fused) Have a renewable energy day Mark in
> Roanoke Va Www.Reevadiy.org.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Wow, huge misunderstanding of "reliability"..

There is a huge difference between the poor reliability of large numbers of
single-point failures compared to the HUGE redundancy in the Tesla battery
with dozens of parallel redundancy at each step of the battery.  I'd take
the Tesla design any  day as being far more reliable...

Bob


 On Monday, October 8, 2018 3:45 PM, Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:

 Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is they're
the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in an
onroad vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the
complexity of monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer Reports
gave it high marks for handling etc, they gave it a low score for
reliability.  Currently they send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a
battery field repair as this cost is built into the price of a pricey car.
I don't know how this business model will work on lower prices $30k
versions.  I'm surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty
bitty cells in a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for reliability
reasons (even with each one fused) Have a renewable energy day Mark in
Roanoke Va Www.Reevadiy.org.

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[Ron Solberg via EV]

 Quoting Mark Hanson via EV :

I'm surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty bitty  
cells in a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for reliability  
reasons (even with each one fused


Unfortunately,too many folks(Media)go through life lacking basic  
science concepts. For example, few schools offer *Concept Physics* as  
well as a second physics course where the emphasis is on the math. For  
many, who are challenged by the math, physics is not taken. My  
favorite is, Bernoulli's Principle a fun concept that could benefit  
folks if they understood it.


I am told that if the tiny air sacs(alveoli)in our lungs were laid out  
flat,they would cover a tennis court. Our body cells are "itty  
bitty"as is the cell "machinery" inside them. Trees have manny small  
leaves, not just one or two. I have not had a course in biophysics and  
am not an electrical engineer, but I trust the engineers at Tesla  
based what I see in nature. 


Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is  
they're the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight  
batteries (2170) in an onroad vehicle. I just think of all those  
points of failure and the complexity of monitoring that reduces  
reliability.  While Consumer Reports gave it high marks for handling  
etc, they gave it a low score for reliability.  Currently they send  
a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a battery field repair as  
this cost is built into the price of a pricey car.  I don't know how  
this business model will work on lower prices $30k versions.  I'm  
surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty bitty  
cells in a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for  
reliability reasons (even with each one fused)

Have a renewable energy day
Mark in Roanoke Va
Www.Reevadiy.org[1].

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[Rod Hower via EV]

Mark, You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have millions of 
transistors with the potential of failure, better stick with the bipolar 
transistor!  Good luck with that!
 

On Monday, October 8, 2018 3:45 PM, Mark Hanson via EV  
wrote:
 

 Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is they're 
the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in an 
onroad vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the complexity 
of monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer Reports gave it high 
marks for handling etc, they gave it a low score for reliability.  Currently 
they send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a battery field repair as this 
cost is built into the price of a pricey car.  I don't know how this business 
model will work on lower prices $30k versions.  I'm surprised the media doesn't 
mention the thousands of itty bitty cells in a Tesla and that no one else does 
it that way for reliability reasons (even with each one fused)
Have a renewable energy day
Mark in Roanoke Va
Www.Reevadiy.org. 

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[paul dove via EV]

I don’t think your fears are based on any real data. The prismatic cells used 
in other cars have just as many points of failure they are just packaged 
differently. I cut open batteries and they contain layers of cells all 
connected in parallel. It’s the same thing except the cells aren’t fused like a 
Tesla. If you loose one parallel cell in a prismatic package you loose the 
whole thing. Reliability comes from design and testing. Tesla did all that 
before the made the first model S. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 8, 2018, at 2:45 PM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is they're 
> the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in an 
> onroad vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the 
> complexity of monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer Reports 
> gave it high marks for handling etc, they gave it a low score for 
> reliability.  Currently they send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a 
> battery field repair as this cost is built into the price of a pricey car.  I 
> don't know how this business model will work on lower prices $30k versions.  
> I'm surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty bitty cells in 
> a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for reliability reasons (even 
> with each one fused)
> Have a renewable energy day
> Mark in Roanoke Va
> Www.Reevadiy.org. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[Damon Henry via EV]

I understand the engineering theory behind this line of reasoning, but I think 
in practice it has not  played out this way.  I guy I work has driven his Model 
S around the Midwest to the tune of 50,000+ miles a year for a couple of years 
now performing onsite service to our customers with no battery related issues.  
Nissan Leaf owners wish they had it so well.  Their cars have been riddled with 
battery problems primarily due to the lack of a thermal management system.  The 
difference in the experience has nothing to do with the size of cells or number 
of connections.

I do agree with you that a solution with less possible points of failure and 
all other engineering being equal is the one to pick, but those are not the 
choices that consumers are being given.  The Tesla is a very well engineered 
car and there is enough real world results to know that the battery pack is not 
an issue.   Tesla batteries are doing well into the multiple hundreds of 
thousands of miles territory.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Mark Hanson via EV 

Sent: Monday, October 8, 2018 12:45 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Mark Hanson
Subject: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is they're the 
only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in an onroad 
vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the complexity of 
monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer Reports gave it high marks 
for handling etc, they gave it a low score for reliability.  Currently they 
send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a battery field repair as this cost 
is built into the price of a pricey car.  I don't know how this business model 
will work on lower prices $30k versions.  I'm surprised the media doesn't 
mention the thousands of itty bitty cells in a Tesla and that no one else does 
it that way for reliability reasons (even with each one fused)
Have a renewable energy day
Mark in Roanoke Va
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=Www.Reevadiy.orgdata=02%7C01%7C%7Cd1f13bec89f84c61f95108d62d569ce1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636746247348859395sdata=9u1itIUVA0QwLP8tNAlr57Aj2s6YhE9qLlDg2IHtfz8%3Dreserved=0.

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[EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[Mark Hanson via EV]

Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is they're the 
only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in an onroad 
vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the complexity of 
monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer Reports gave it high marks 
for handling etc, they gave it a low score for reliability.  Currently they 
send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a battery field repair as this cost 
is built into the price of a pricey car.  I don't know how this business model 
will work on lower prices $30k versions.  I'm surprised the media doesn't 
mention the thousands of itty bitty cells in a Tesla and that no one else does 
it that way for reliability reasons (even with each one fused)
Have a renewable energy day
Mark in Roanoke Va
Www.Reevadiy.org. 

Sent from my iPhone
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