Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Folks, this thread is interesting, but it's wandered pretty far off topic. 

Can we let it slide now, please?

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Ben Goren via EV]

Though autonomous cars aren't yet up to human standards in all environments, 
they surpass human standards in many -- and there's little question but that 
it's not long before the safety of autonomous cars is significantly superior to 
that of human drivers. Will there be situations where Mario Andretti could 
avoid a wreck that the robot won't be able to? Certainly. Would Andretti be 
able to avoid a much less challenging wreck after a 20-hour non-stop (not even 
for the restroom, let alone sleep) haul? Doubtful.

There isn't a taxi company in the world that wouldn't fire all its drivers 
instantly without hesitation in favor of $50,000 robots. Maybe some white-glove 
limo companies would keep the drivers the same way some hotels still have 
bellhops, and the diplomatic / police escort services would still need a 
combat-ready driver behind the wheel. But that $50,000 robot would pay for 
itself in just a few months and result in undreamt-of hundreds of percent 
quarterly and annual profit gains.

Now, would I personally rather live in a society with most of today's 
professional drivers out of a job? Well, that depends. If the profits from 
productivity gains go straight to the pockets of the 1%, no, that's not the 
society I want to live in. But if the wealth gets spread around, and if the 
eternal promise actually comes true and those drivers get a chance to become 
artists and athletes and poets and what-not as their dreams dictate, then I'd 
be all for it. But we as a society abhor the thought of widespread leisure and 
insist that only the 1% deserve the chance to follow their dreams...

...which means that it's only a matter of time before those drivers are mostly 
unemployed, like it or lump it.

b&

On Aug 6, 2014, at 3:20 PM, Dennis Miles via EV  wrote:

> As I see it the problems with autonomous cars is the estimated $50.000
> EXTRA they will cost to purchase, their proven inability to safely drive in
> city traffic, without human supervision.  And the resulting loss of jobs
> (and the consequential unemployment.) for usurping taxi drivers, Limo
> drovers, Bus drivers, and Chauffeurs jobs which could  have been created or
> preserved by not adopting an autonomous vehicle and human drivers cost less
> per year also. In your scenario the car comes into the city to bring you
> home, although a Taxi and driver can do that even today, an autonomous car
> has to have human supervision in cities, so it can not. (Having been a Taxi
> and Handicapped Van driver from 2005-6-7-8 I have a definitive point of
> view.
> 
> Dennis Lee Miles
> 
> (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*
> 
> * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.*
> 
> *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*
> 
> *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
> intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*
> 
> *  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
> <http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *
> 
> *NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
> <http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> While I agree that there are some strong political and job transition
>> issues that will arrive with autonomous cars, I completely disagree that
>> they will be unnecessary.
>> 
>> Possible benefits:
>> - take transit in the morning, stay late, call for your car at 10pm to
>> pick you up;
>> - intoxicated; let the car drive
>> - share a ride to a event, need to leave early, call car to pick up up.
>> 
>> And so on...
>> 
>> In particular, I think they could be a boon for public transit.  So many
>> people take a car during the morning rush hour because they need to do
>> something after work.  Imagine instead that they take public transit in the
>> morning, which results in less vehicles on the road and, in the evening
>> when the traffic has died down, their car can come and get them.  Also
>> saves on parking space construction and cost to use.
>> 
>> 
>> Peri
>> 
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Dennis Miles via EV" 
>> To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
>> List" 
>> Sent: 06-Aug-14 2:16:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to
>> prove (video)
>> 
>> Autonomous cars and wireless charging are two job destroyers at an
>>> excessive cost. Both New Jersey and Oregon have thousands of labor jobs at
>>> minimum wage for fuel (Gasoline) pump operators, (NO "self service" pumps!
>>> ) I have said before self driving auto

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

With all sympathy to taxi drivers and such, I don't think you have a 
fair comparison.  To take a taxi home might cost $30 where calling your 
own vehicle might cost $5 to make the equivalent round trip.


At present, there are technical limitations, as you cite.  However, I'm 
quite certain that the technology will improve to the point where an 
autonomous car will be less accident prone in virtually all cases.  One 
can always find an exception but I think these will be statistics at the 
"noise" level, meaning that your chance of getting killed in a 
autonomous failure is no greater than, say, an oncoming car swerving 
into your lane when it's too late to react.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Dennis Miles" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 06-Aug-14 3:20:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window 
to prove (video)


As I see it the problems with autonomous cars is the estimated $50.000 
EXTRA they will cost to purchase, their proven inability to safely 
drive in city traffic, without human supervision.  And the resulting 
loss of jobs  (and the consequential unemployment.) for usurping taxi 
drivers, Limo drovers, Bus drivers, and Chauffeurs jobs which could  
have been created or preserved by not adopting an autonomous vehicle 
and human drivers cost less per year also. In your scenario the car 
comes into the city to bring you home, although a Taxi and driver can 
do that even today, an autonomous car has to have human supervision in 
cities, so it can not. (Having been a Taxi and Handicapped Van driver 
from 2005-6-7-8 I have a definitive point of view.


Dennis Lee Miles

(evprofes...@evprofessor.com)

 Founder:EV Tech. Institute Inc.

Phone # (863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)

Educating yourself, does not mean you were stupid; it means, you are 
intelligent enough,  to know, that there is plenty left to learn!


  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss

NEW You Tube Video link: http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8



On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:
While I agree that there are some strong political and job transition 
issues that will arrive with autonomous cars, I completely disagree 
that they will be unnecessary.


Possible benefits:
- take transit in the morning, stay late, call for your car at 10pm to 
pick you up;

- intoxicated; let the car drive
- share a ride to a event, need to leave early, call car to pick up 
up.


And so on...

In particular, I think they could be a boon for public transit.  So 
many people take a car during the morning rush hour because they need 
to do something after work.  Imagine instead that they take public 
transit in the morning, which results in less vehicles on the road 
and, in the evening when the traffic has died down, their car can come 
and get them.  Also saves on parking space construction and cost to 
use.



Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Dennis Miles via EV" 
To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 06-Aug-14 2:16:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of 
window to prove (video)



Autonomous cars and wireless charging are two job destroyers at an
excessive cost. Both New Jersey and Oregon have thousands of labor 
jobs at
minimum wage for fuel (Gasoline) pump operators, (NO "self service" 
pumps!
) I have said before self driving autonomous autos are unnecessary 
and
motivation for their use is only from profit motive if the 
manufacturers. A
"Chauffeur" to drive your car or a Taxi and Driver or Limo and driver 
are
less expensive than paying $50,000 for one of the autonomous vehicles 
for
personal use. and replacing a Truck Driver is an economic loss for 
the

freight business. Drivers are more versatile and have a proven safety
record. A human being can make a decision based upon experience and
training and intuition which a computer cannot match. If you want to 
move
freight less expensively make an investment in rail-road 
infrastructure.


Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder: **EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you 
are

intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

* You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
<http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *

* NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
<http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>



On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Ben Goren via EV  
wrote:


 On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Lee Hart via EV  
wrote:


 >>>> expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is 
asking

 a
 >>>> bit much.
 >
 >>> I can easily imagine a robot arm that can

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Peter C. Thompson via EV]

Hi Folks,

Take a look at deaths from automobiles in the USA, we are losing over 
30,000 people per year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

Google has self-driving cars that have had 2 accidents - both caused by 
people. As of August 2012, there have been over 300,000 miles driven by 
these cars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_driverless_car

Autonomous cars are going to be a boon for:
- blind people
- older people that can't drive any more
- people that are drunk/impaired
etc.

Since this is an electric vehicle discussion list, not a jobs or 
politics list, I kindly suggest we drop this thread.


Cheers, Peter

On 8/6/14, 2:24 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
While I agree that there are some strong political and job transition 
issues that will arrive with autonomous cars, I completely disagree 
that they will be unnecessary.


Possible benefits:
- take transit in the morning, stay late, call for your car at 10pm to 
pick you up;

- intoxicated; let the car drive
- share a ride to a event, need to leave early, call car to pick up up.

And so on...

In particular, I think they could be a boon for public transit. So 
many people take a car during the morning rush hour because they need 
to do something after work.  Imagine instead that they take public 
transit in the morning, which results in less vehicles on the road 
and, in the evening when the traffic has died down, their car can come 
and get them.  Also saves on parking space construction and cost to use.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Dennis Miles via EV" 
To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 06-Aug-14 2:16:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of 
window to prove (video)



Autonomous cars and wireless charging are two job destroyers at an
excessive cost. Both New Jersey and Oregon have thousands of labor 
jobs at
minimum wage for fuel (Gasoline) pump operators, (NO "self service" 
pumps!

) I have said before self driving autonomous autos are unnecessary and
motivation for their use is only from profit motive if the 
manufacturers. A
"Chauffeur" to drive your car or a Taxi and Driver or Limo and driver 
are
less expensive than paying $50,000 for one of the autonomous vehicles 
for

personal use. and replacing a Truck Driver is an economic loss for the
freight business. Drivers are more versatile and have a proven safety
record. A human being can make a decision based upon experience and
training and intuition which a computer cannot match. If you want to 
move

freight less expensively make an investment in rail-road infrastructure.

Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder: **EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

* You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
<http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *

* NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
<http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Ben Goren via EV  
wrote:


 On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Lee Hart via EV  
wrote:


 >>>> expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is 
asking

 a
 >>>> bit much.
 >
 >>> I can easily imagine a robot arm that can reach out, find and 
connect

 to some
 >>> contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.
 >
 >> That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering 
how many

 people
 >> have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus 
the

 hazard
 >> of people or pets or other things getting caught up in the 
mechanism.

 >
 > This strikes me as a non-problem that keeps getting elevated into
 something much bigger and more complicated than it needs to be.

 I think you're right. What's exciting to me is that two technological
 advances are starting to mature at the same time, and that the two 
of the
 together will potentially be much more significant than either 
would be

 separately.

 ICE and EV cars are both equally well suited to autonomous driving, 
but EV
 cars are _much_ better suited to autonomous recharging than ICE 
cars are to

 autonomous refueling.

 At-home EV recharging is already more than plenty good enough for 
all but
 the idle super-rich. At-home charging isn't merely a solved 
problem; it

 never really was a problem in the first place.

 On-the-go EV recharging is only a problem when the miles driven in 
a day
 are greater than the miles the car gets on an overnight charge. 
Save for

 road trips, the Tesla is already there and others will soon follow as
 battery prices continue to drop. And plugin hybrids such as the 
Volt and my
 Mustang project al

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Dennis Miles via EV]

As I see it the problems with autonomous cars is the estimated $50.000
EXTRA they will cost to purchase, their proven inability to safely drive in
city traffic, without human supervision.  And the resulting loss of jobs
 (and the consequential unemployment.) for usurping taxi drivers, Limo
drovers, Bus drivers, and Chauffeurs jobs which could  have been created or
preserved by not adopting an autonomous vehicle and human drivers cost less
per year also. In your scenario the car comes into the city to bring you
home, although a Taxi and driver can do that even today, an autonomous car
has to have human supervision in cities, so it can not. (Having been a Taxi
and Handicapped Van driver from 2005-6-7-8 I have a definitive point of
view.

Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

*  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
<http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *

*NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
<http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> While I agree that there are some strong political and job transition
> issues that will arrive with autonomous cars, I completely disagree that
> they will be unnecessary.
>
> Possible benefits:
> - take transit in the morning, stay late, call for your car at 10pm to
> pick you up;
> - intoxicated; let the car drive
> - share a ride to a event, need to leave early, call car to pick up up.
>
> And so on...
>
> In particular, I think they could be a boon for public transit.  So many
> people take a car during the morning rush hour because they need to do
> something after work.  Imagine instead that they take public transit in the
> morning, which results in less vehicles on the road and, in the evening
> when the traffic has died down, their car can come and get them.  Also
> saves on parking space construction and cost to use.
>
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Dennis Miles via EV" 
> To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" 
> Sent: 06-Aug-14 2:16:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to
> prove (video)
>
>  Autonomous cars and wireless charging are two job destroyers at an
>> excessive cost. Both New Jersey and Oregon have thousands of labor jobs at
>> minimum wage for fuel (Gasoline) pump operators, (NO "self service" pumps!
>> ) I have said before self driving autonomous autos are unnecessary and
>> motivation for their use is only from profit motive if the manufacturers.
>> A
>> "Chauffeur" to drive your car or a Taxi and Driver or Limo and driver are
>> less expensive than paying $50,000 for one of the autonomous vehicles for
>> personal use. and replacing a Truck Driver is an economic loss for the
>> freight business. Drivers are more versatile and have a proven safety
>> record. A human being can make a decision based upon experience and
>> training and intuition which a computer cannot match. If you want to move
>> freight less expensively make an investment in rail-road infrastructure.
>>
>> Dennis Lee Miles
>>
>> (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*
>>
>> * Founder: **EV Tech. Institute Inc.*
>>
>> *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*
>>
>> *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
>> intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*
>>
>> * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
>> <http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *
>>
>> * NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
>> <http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Ben Goren via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>>   On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>>>
>>>  >>>> expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is
>>> asking
>>>  a
>>>  >>>> bit much.
>>>  >
>>>  >>> I can easily imagine a robot arm that can reach out, find and
>>> connect
>>>  to some
>>>  >>> contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.
>>>  >
>>>  >> That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering how
>>> many
>>>  people
>>>  >> have trouble not running over things in the garage al

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

While I agree that there are some strong political and job transition 
issues that will arrive with autonomous cars, I completely disagree that 
they will be unnecessary.


Possible benefits:
- take transit in the morning, stay late, call for your car at 10pm to 
pick you up;

- intoxicated; let the car drive
- share a ride to a event, need to leave early, call car to pick up up.

And so on...

In particular, I think they could be a boon for public transit.  So many 
people take a car during the morning rush hour because they need to do 
something after work.  Imagine instead that they take public transit in 
the morning, which results in less vehicles on the road and, in the 
evening when the traffic has died down, their car can come and get them. 
 Also saves on parking space construction and cost to use.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Dennis Miles via EV" 
To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 06-Aug-14 2:16:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window 
to prove (video)



Autonomous cars and wireless charging are two job destroyers at an
excessive cost. Both New Jersey and Oregon have thousands of labor jobs 
at
minimum wage for fuel (Gasoline) pump operators, (NO "self service" 
pumps!

) I have said before self driving autonomous autos are unnecessary and
motivation for their use is only from profit motive if the 
manufacturers. A
"Chauffeur" to drive your car or a Taxi and Driver or Limo and driver 
are
less expensive than paying $50,000 for one of the autonomous vehicles 
for

personal use. and replacing a Truck Driver is an economic loss for the
freight business. Drivers are more versatile and have a proven safety
record. A human being can make a decision based upon experience and
training and intuition which a computer cannot match. If you want to 
move
freight less expensively make an investment in rail-road 
infrastructure.


Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder: **EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

* You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
<http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *

* NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
<http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Ben Goren via EV  
wrote:


 On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Lee Hart via EV  
wrote:


 >>>> expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is 
asking

 a
 >>>> bit much.
 >
 >>> I can easily imagine a robot arm that can reach out, find and 
connect

 to some
 >>> contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.
 >
 >> That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering how 
many

 people
 >> have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus 
the

 hazard
 >> of people or pets or other things getting caught up in the 
mechanism.

 >
 > This strikes me as a non-problem that keeps getting elevated into
 something much bigger and more complicated than it needs to be.

 I think you're right. What's exciting to me is that two technological
 advances are starting to mature at the same time, and that the two of 
the
 together will potentially be much more significant than either would 
be

 separately.

 ICE and EV cars are both equally well suited to autonomous driving, 
but EV
 cars are _much_ better suited to autonomous recharging than ICE cars 
are to

 autonomous refueling.

 At-home EV recharging is already more than plenty good enough for all 
but
 the idle super-rich. At-home charging isn't merely a solved problem; 
it

 never really was a problem in the first place.

 On-the-go EV recharging is only a problem when the miles driven in a 
day
 are greater than the miles the car gets on an overnight charge. Save 
for

 road trips, the Tesla is already there and others will soon follow as
 battery prices continue to drop. And plugin hybrids such as the Volt 
and my
 Mustang project also have that problem "well enough" solved; if most 
people
 only filled up their gas tanks a few times a year rather than a few 
times a
 month, many (but not all) of our fossil fuel problems would magically 
go

 away.

 What EVs do at this time when many new cars can already drive 
themselves
 in limited ways is open up the possibility for fleets of fully 
autonomous
 nearly maintenance-free magic carpets. _That's_ the exciting bit. How 
they
 wind up charging themselves isn't something anybody other than the 
mass

 market manufacturers really need to worry about.

 b&
 -- next part --
 A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
 Name: signature.asc
 Type: application

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Dennis Miles via EV]

Autonomous cars and wireless charging are two job destroyers at an
excessive cost. Both New Jersey and Oregon have thousands of labor jobs at
minimum wage for fuel (Gasoline) pump operators, (NO "self service" pumps!
) I have said before self driving autonomous autos are unnecessary and
motivation for their use is only from profit motive if the manufacturers. A
"Chauffeur" to drive your car or a Taxi and Driver or Limo and driver are
less expensive than paying $50,000 for one of the autonomous vehicles for
personal use. and replacing a Truck Driver  is an economic loss for the
freight business. Drivers are more versatile and have a proven safety
record.  A human being can make a decision based upon experience and
training and intuition which a computer cannot match. If you want to move
freight less expensively make an investment in rail-road infrastructure.

Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

*  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
 *

*NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8



On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:

> On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>
>  expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking
> a
>  bit much.
> >
> >>> I can easily imagine a robot arm that can reach out, find and connect
> to some
> >>> contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.
> >
> >> That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering how many
> people
> >> have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus the
> hazard
> >> of people or pets or other things getting caught up in the mechanism.
> >
> > This strikes me as a non-problem that keeps getting elevated into
> something much bigger and more complicated than it needs to be.
>
> I think you're right. What's exciting to me is that two technological
> advances are starting to mature at the same time, and that the two of the
> together will potentially be much more significant than either would be
> separately.
>
> ICE and EV cars are both equally well suited to autonomous driving, but EV
> cars are _much_ better suited to autonomous recharging than ICE cars are to
> autonomous refueling.
>
> At-home EV recharging is already more than plenty good enough for all but
> the idle super-rich. At-home charging isn't merely a solved problem; it
> never really was a problem in the first place.
>
> On-the-go EV recharging is only a problem when the miles driven in a day
> are greater than the miles the car gets on an overnight charge. Save for
> road trips, the Tesla is already there and others will soon follow as
> battery prices continue to drop. And plugin hybrids such as the Volt and my
> Mustang project also have that problem "well enough" solved; if most people
> only filled up their gas tanks a few times a year rather than a few times a
> month, many (but not all) of our fossil fuel problems would magically go
> away.
>
> What EVs do at this time when many new cars can already drive themselves
> in limited ways is open up the possibility for fleets of fully autonomous
> nearly maintenance-free magic carpets. _That's_ the exciting bit. How they
> wind up charging themselves isn't something anybody other than the mass
> market manufacturers really need to worry about.
>
> b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

 expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking a
 bit much.
> 
>>> I can easily imagine a robot arm that can reach out, find and connect to 
>>> some
>>> contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.
> 
>> That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering how many people
>> have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus the hazard
>> of people or pets or other things getting caught up in the mechanism.
> 
> This strikes me as a non-problem that keeps getting elevated into something 
> much bigger and more complicated than it needs to be.

I think you're right. What's exciting to me is that two technological advances 
are starting to mature at the same time, and that the two of the together will 
potentially be much more significant than either would be separately.

ICE and EV cars are both equally well suited to autonomous driving, but EV cars 
are _much_ better suited to autonomous recharging than ICE cars are to 
autonomous refueling.

At-home EV recharging is already more than plenty good enough for all but the 
idle super-rich. At-home charging isn't merely a solved problem; it never 
really was a problem in the first place.

On-the-go EV recharging is only a problem when the miles driven in a day are 
greater than the miles the car gets on an overnight charge. Save for road 
trips, the Tesla is already there and others will soon follow as battery prices 
continue to drop. And plugin hybrids such as the Volt and my Mustang project 
also have that problem "well enough" solved; if most people only filled up 
their gas tanks a few times a year rather than a few times a month, many (but 
not all) of our fossil fuel problems would magically go away.

What EVs do at this time when many new cars can already drive themselves in 
limited ways is open up the possibility for fleets of fully autonomous nearly 
maintenance-free magic carpets. _That's_ the exciting bit. How they wind up 
charging themselves isn't something anybody other than the mass market 
manufacturers really need to worry about.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Lee Hart via EV]

expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking a
bit much.



I can easily imagine a robot arm that can reach out, find and connect to some
contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.



That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering how many people
have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus the hazard
of people or pets or other things getting caught up in the mechanism.


This strikes me as a non-problem that keeps getting elevated into 
something much bigger and more complicated than it needs to be. They try 
to make it out as dangerous, and so difficult that no one can do it. 
Naturally, they have a complicated and expensive "cure" for this problem...


People have been putting gas into their own cars and other ICE-powered 
toys for over a century. It is a much trickier and more dangerous 
operation than plugging something in to recharge it. So many people have 
been injured by gasoline that we've become used to it. It's a dog bites 
man story; ho hum, nothing new, let's move on.


People have been plugging EVs and other battery-powered toys in for just 
as long. But have you ever heard of anyone injured doing it? I'm sure 
the fearmongers would like to scare up a few cases to hype (man bites 
dog). But in reality, it's extremely rare; a non-problem.


As far as making plugging things in simple... we've had easy methods for 
100 years. Cordless phone, drills, ipods etc. all have stands that you 
just drop it into to charge. Trains, trolleys, and buses have had 
overhead wires to draw power from. Bumper cars in amusement parts even 
use this method. There are already millions of industrial vehicles that 
plug themselves in to recharge.


It doesn't matter if it's wireless or has a pair of contacts; it's still 
trivially easy. We've had both conductive and inductive chargers for 50+ 
years.


I simply do not accept that we need to perpetuate the "gas pump" model 
for charging EVs. This is not a problem that calls for some complicated 
expensive solution.


--
We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves.
-- George Matthew Adams
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Wed Aug 06 11:20:13 PDT 2014 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>A pseudo-taxi that could drive itself to a charging station and then drive 
>away when its battery is full would make lots of sense. The same pseudo-taxi 
>that needed an human to stand around waiting for the pseudo-taxi to arrive to 
>connect the charger, and then be there to disconnect the charger when the 
>pseudo-taxi is charged...that's gonna be a non-starter.

Actually, I could see having one (or more if needed) people working at the Taxi 
Depot to do charger Plugin/Unplug - AND check the Taxi for things like damage, 
stuff left in the car, etc...
One guy could probably handle dozens of taxis.


--

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 6, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> The other problem with cordless charging - whether robot arm or induction - 
> is that it requires a certain orientation of the vehicle. In my case, I back 
> into my driveway because it's too difficult to see when backing out into 
> traffic.  So I either would need a charge connection on the back of the car 
> or would need one that I can drive over, somehow.  Or one on each side...

I don't see automated charging being anything other than a luxury item for 
personal EVs until they get dirt cheap. But I *do* see them being indispensable 
for autonomous vehicle applications.

They'd even make sense for certain fleet applications if the cars only park 
themselves and do no other autonomous driving. You could design a parking lot / 
charging station with cars packed in with only an inch of clearance on all four 
sides from neighboring cars. The car pulls itself out, the driver gets in and 
drives away; at the end of the day, the driver gets out of the car and walks 
away as the car parks itself into a space impossible for the doors to even open.

That opens up a *lot* of square footage in what could potentially be an area 
with expensive real estate rates.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 6, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

>> expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking a
>> bit much.
> 
> Actually If I had the time (after I retire maybe) I can easily imagin a
> robot arm on the garage wall that can reach out, find and connect to some
> contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.

That's a lot of moving parts to break, especially considering how many people 
have trouble not running over things in the garage already. Plus the hazard of 
people or pets or other things getting caught up in the mechanism.

Still, what's important for autonomous vehicles is some form of autonomous 
charge connection, whatever that form might take. If a mechanical coupling 
works, fantastic.

For personal EVs, it's not an issue; it's really not that big a deal to grab 
the charger off the wall and stick it in the car. But, once we get into the 
realm of autonomous vehicles, and especially any sort of application in which 
the general public is going to be "operating" the vehicles, the car needs to be 
able to charge itself as well as it can drive and park itself.

A pseudo-taxi that could drive itself to a charging station and then drive away 
when its battery is full would make lots of sense. The same pseudo-taxi that 
needed an human to stand around waiting for the pseudo-taxi to arrive to 
connect the charger, and then be there to disconnect the charger when the 
pseudo-taxi is charged...that's gonna be a non-starter.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

The other problem with cordless charging - whether robot arm or 
induction - is that it requires a certain orientation of the vehicle.  
In my case, I back into my driveway because it's too difficult to see 
when backing out into traffic.  So I either would need a charge 
connection on the back of the car or would need one that I can drive 
over, somehow.  Or one on each side...


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: ev...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 06-Aug-14 10:02:04 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window 
to prove (video)


 expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking 
a

bit much.

Actually If I had the time (after I retire maybe) I can easily imagin a
robot arm on the garage wall that can reach out, find and connect to 
some

contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.

In fact, no robotics, just a CUP/CONE system on a spring. The cone is 
on

the car (aerodynamics) and the cone is on a spring arm. Just drive it
home. NAVY pilots do this all the time flying at over 300 MPH in 3
dimensions to a moving cone!

My problem is the clutter in the garage would need a 20' long arm to 
get

past the junk.

Bob, WB4APR


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Ben Goren via EV  
wrote:


 On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:13 AM, brucedp5 via EV  
wrote:


 > EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove 
(video)


 When cars become fully autonomous a la Google, that'll significantly
 change many dynamics, especially efficiency. I'd expect individual
 ownership to plummet, and instead for car sharing systems to become 
the
 norm -- more like limousine or taxi services, but driverless. And, in 
such
 a system, range becomes a moot point; the system automatically 
dispatches a
 vehicle with enough range for your trip, or it does a pony express 
thing
 for longer trips. Earlier discussions here about wireless charging 
would
 become critical; a car can park itself on a wireless charger, but 
expecting
 the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking a bit 
much.


 ...all that is a ways into the future, of course. Personally, I'm
 expecting we'll see autonomous long-haul trucks first, and likely 
within a
 decade; the economics of such a system would be overwhelming. Now's a 
great

 time for teamsters to plan for a career change

 b&
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 >
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> expecting the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking a
bit much.

Actually If I had the time (after I retire maybe) I can easily imagin a
robot arm on the garage wall that can reach out, find and connect to some
contacts mounted somehow on the front license plate area.

In fact, no robotics, just a CUP/CONE system on a spring.  The cone is on
the car (aerodynamics) and the cone is on a spring arm.  Just drive it
home.  NAVY pilots do this all the time flying at over 300 MPH in 3
dimensions to a moving cone!

My problem is the clutter in the garage would need a 20' long arm to get
past the junk.

Bob, WB4APR


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:

> On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:13 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>
> > EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)
>
> When cars become fully autonomous a la Google, that'll significantly
> change many dynamics, especially efficiency. I'd expect individual
> ownership to plummet, and instead for car sharing systems to become the
> norm -- more like limousine or taxi services, but driverless. And, in such
> a system, range becomes a moot point; the system automatically dispatches a
> vehicle with enough range for your trip, or it does a pony express thing
> for longer trips. Earlier discussions here about wireless charging would
> become critical; a car can park itself on a wireless charger, but expecting
> the car to plug itself into a wall outlet / cable is asking a bit much.
>
> ...all that is a ways into the future, of course. Personally, I'm
> expecting we'll see autonomous long-haul trucks first, and likely within a
> decade; the economics of such a system would be overwhelming. Now's a great
> time for teamsters to plan for a career change
>
> b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:13 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

When cars become fully autonomous a la Google, that'll significantly change 
many dynamics, especially efficiency. I'd expect individual ownership to 
plummet, and instead for car sharing systems to become the norm -- more like 
limousine or taxi services, but driverless. And, in such a system, range 
becomes a moot point; the system automatically dispatches a vehicle with enough 
range for your trip, or it does a pony express thing for longer trips. Earlier 
discussions here about wireless charging would become critical; a car can park 
itself on a wireless charger, but expecting the car to plug itself into a wall 
outlet / cable is asking a bit much.

...all that is a ways into the future, of course. Personally, I'm expecting 
we'll see autonomous long-haul trucks first, and likely within a decade; the 
economics of such a system would be overwhelming. Now's a great time for 
teamsters to plan for a career change

b&
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[EVDL] EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

[brucedp5 via EV]

EVLN: i3 EV self-parks> driver climbs out of window to prove (video)

% See Romanian pilot/driver Porcisteanu prove the i3 EV parks itself, listen
to the sounds the i3 makes as it self-parks %

http://www.inautonews.com/video-see-a-bmw-i3-park-itself
(VIDEO) See a BMW i3 park itself 
by Cristian Gnaticov - July 31st, 2014

[image  
http://www.inautonews.com/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/bmw_i3_park_assist.1buw3cwniwo0kws4g8gckkwkw.a5fuq7lrqzkgc0ccw4ss08gso.th.jpeg


video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WGoeIjSuJzo
BMW i3 - (Self) Parking Assist (Guidance) by Vali Porcisteanu (Rally Driver)
porcisteanu Jul 29, 2014 
BMW i3 - (Self) Parking Assist (Guidance) - Awesome!!!
Vali Porcisteanu - Drive Test for La Volan - Digi 24 (Romania)
]

A new video uploaded on YouTube is showing one of the most interesting
“gadget green” cars out there, the BMW i3, in an attempt to park itself.

Did you ever wonder how the Parking Assistant system of the new BMW i3
actually works? Well, in case you did, than the video posted below is what
you have been looking for because you can check out the “green” city car in
“action”. The electric vehicle can park itself without any operations from
the driver needed thanks to its radar which is scanning big enough parking
spots and when this is finally found, the car is doing everything by itself.

The video posted below is showing the Romanian rally driver, Vali
Porcisteanu, activating the Parking Assistant and then jumping out of the
car through the window, in order to prove that the model is actually parking
itself. As a small reminder, the BMW i3 is taking its power from an electric
motor, with 170 HP (125 kW) and 250 Nm (184 lb-ft) of torque, connected to a
single-speed transmission sending power to the rear wheels. This can be
backed up by [an optional] range extender in the shape of the 650cc
two-cylinder petrol engine, which will add an extra 34 HP.
[© inautonews.com]
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentin_Porcisteanu
Valentin Porcisteanu - a Romanian pilot/driver
...
http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2014/8/1/Watch-a-BMW-i3-Park-Itself-7721747/
Watch a BMW i3 Park Itself
Aug 01, 2014
[image
http://db.carbuzz.com/images2/41/8000/600/418639.jpg
]




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Free EV Test-Drive Event @Pacific Commons 10a-4p 8/9 Fremont, CA
...
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http://cleantechnica.com/2014/07/29/best-electric-unicycle/
Who Makes The Best Self-Balancing Electric Unicycle?

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/07/if-an-electric-bike-is-ever-going-to-hit-it-big-in-the-us-its-this-one/375167/
Electric Copenhagen Wheel replaces the back wheel of any bicycle

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Stanford's pure Lithium anode battery makes a more powerful battery

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BMW i DC Fast Chargers and ChargeNow DC Fast program @Plug-In 2014
+
EVLN: BMW i3 vs Nissan Leaf – EV Comparison


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