Re: Newcomb's Paradox

2014-12-11 Thread LizR
The two transparent boxes can have two possible outcomes. One is that the player only takes box B, which contains $1 million (I believe is the agreed amount). The other is that the player sees the million dollars, takes both boxes, and proves that the oracle is not infallible, The problem with

Re: Newcomb's Paradox

2014-12-11 Thread LizR
On 12 December 2014 at 14:49, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: If both boxes were transparent, that would screw up the oracle's ability to make the prediction, since there would be a feedback from the oracle's attempt at prediction to the subject. The oracle can predict if I'm

Re: Some might also find this useful

2014-12-11 Thread LizR
I remember looking at that once before, and I still got very confused. On 12 December 2014 at 17:28, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: I cam across this today and found it quite useful. It gives me a better perspective for understanding a lot of what Bruno has said:

Re: Newcomb's Paradox

2014-12-10 Thread LizR
Maybe it's a delayed choice experiment and retroactively collapses the wave function, so your choice actually *does* determine the contents of the boxes. (Just a thought...maybe the second box has a cat in it...) On 11 December 2014 at 09:10, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On

What do they teach them at school nowadays?

2014-12-10 Thread LizR
Well apparently... http://www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/infinity.html I like this bit When something is already endless, we can add 1 and it is stil endless. As any cryptic crossworder will tell you, stil really IS endless (it has no end - i.e. no last 'l') -- You received this message because

Re: Consciousness

2014-12-10 Thread LizR
On 10 December 2014 at 20:00, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: That's the slide I meant. The first item has to do with the (mostly ) elderly who get serious dementia and essentially cannot communicate. They speak nonsense or not at all. From autopsies after they die their brains are

Re: Consciousness

2014-12-10 Thread LizR
On 11 December 2014 at 11:34, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: She is at Smith College. Go for it If that's the only response to a request for peer-reviewed papers, I think we can say right now that there is almost certainly nothing to any of this, because it needs lots of research

Re: Consciousness

2014-12-10 Thread LizR
...@gmail.com wrote: You can do your own research. On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 7:15 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 11 December 2014 at 11:34, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: She is at Smith College. Go for it If that's the only response to a request for peer-reviewed papers, I

Re: Consciousness

2014-12-10 Thread LizR
On 11 December 2014 at 15:37, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/10/2014 5:36 PM, LizR wrote: You're the one putting this forward, presumably you've done some research on it, why should I have to duplicate it? You obviously don't have anything here, I'm sorry I bothered

Re: Consciousness

2014-12-09 Thread LizR
Sounds interesting. I wish I had an hour to watch it. I don't suppose there's a summary? :-) On 10 December 2014 at 03:36, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: richard ruquist yann...@yahoo.com Date: Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 9:26 AM Subject:

Re: World's oldest computer may be older than previously thought

2014-12-09 Thread LizR
On 10 December 2014 at 06:29, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You can't separate religion from authority. Religion is institutionalized Platonism. From prehistoric times every tribe had their shaman who explained the world and predicted things based on his visions and revelations

Re: Consciousness

2014-12-09 Thread LizR
I've been looking for the first slide, but can't find it - can you give me the time when it appears? Actually I may have found it - not the first, but around 18 minutes in - it says: Consciousness without a brain * Deathbed recovery of lost consciousness * Complex consciousness with minimal

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-09 Thread LizR
Yes I've seen FP, though not for a long time. I seem to remember it's a cartoon (a very good one!) On 10 December 2014 at 14:52, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 3:21 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Have you read The Genocides by Thomas M Disch? Super

Divesting from fossil fuels

2014-12-08 Thread LizR
http://gofossilfree.org/creative-action-ideas/ While I'm on the subject... http://ln.is/bit.ly/1ClIO http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/Blogs/makingwaves/nature-does-not-negotiate-Typhoon-Hagupit/blog/51613 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google

Sunlight converted to energy at over 40% efficiency

2014-12-08 Thread LizR
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/12/141207091648.htm -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To

Re: World's oldest computer may be older than previously thought

2014-12-08 Thread LizR
On 8 December 2014 at 18:38, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: What are your thoughts about the huge, earthquake-proof megalithic stone structures around the world, the planned cities of the Indus civilisation, the astronomical alignment and knowledge of precession with which the

Re: World's oldest computer may be older than previously thought

2014-12-08 Thread LizR
On 8 December 2014 at 23:44, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 Dec 2014, at 22:17, LizR wrote: On 8 December 2014 at 01:30, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 06 Dec 2014, at 10:37, LizR wrote: That's a curious question. The ruins and record indicate

Re: World's oldest computer may be older than previously thought

2014-12-08 Thread LizR
On 9 December 2014 at 07:50, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 , meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Atheists have no religious beliefs Of course they don't, but just because something isn't true will never EVER stop religious nincompoops from saying it over and

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-08 Thread LizR
On 8 December 2014 at 23:36, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: You can notice the subtle change in the meaning of being a skeptic. The original meaning is very close to agnostic but it has been slowly sliding into a strong preference for common sense, which is to say, the belief of

Re: World's oldest computer may be older than previously thought

2014-12-07 Thread LizR
On 8 December 2014 at 01:30, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 06 Dec 2014, at 10:37, LizR wrote: That's a curious question. The ruins and record indicate that there was no ancient civilisation that had anything like the knowledge or resources of modern day technology. For example

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-07 Thread LizR
On 8 December 2014 at 03:31, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 2:27 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 6 December 2014 at 05:20, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 8:06 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/4

Re: World's oldest computer may be older than previously thought

2014-12-06 Thread LizR
On 6 December 2014 at 18:25, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/5/2014 3:16 AM, Samiya Illias wrote: As a person who takes the Quran literally, I'm not at all surprised as it is stated that the ancients had been given much more, and we haven't been given a tenth of what they had.

Re: World's oldest computer may be older than previously thought

2014-12-06 Thread LizR
On 6 December 2014 at 19:25, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On 06-Dec-2014, at 11:15 am, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/5/2014 9:56 PM, Samiya Illias wrote: On 06-Dec-2014, at 10:25 am, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/5/2014 3:16 AM, Samiya Illias

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-06 Thread LizR
On 5 December 2014 at 20:06, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/4/2014 8:05 PM, LizR wrote: I suspect that Bruno is differentiating physical existence from primary existence. What's the difference? Isn't physical existence the paradigmatic case? the example we point to when asked

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-06 Thread LizR
On 6 December 2014 at 05:20, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 8:06 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 12/4/2014 8:05 PM, LizR wrote: I suspect that Bruno is differentiating physical existence from primary existence. What's the difference

Re: Origins

2014-12-04 Thread LizR
On 5 December 2014 at 05:52, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 04 Dec 2014, at 17:01, zibb...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, December 4, 2014 2:09:11 PM UTC, spudb...@aol.com wrote: The Hindu cycles seem more plausible then the Quran, Soonah, and Bukhari. Yet, no faith describes how

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-04 Thread LizR
I suspect that Bruno is differentiating physical existence from primary existence. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-12-03 Thread LizR
On 3 December 2014 at 17:17, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Liz, I am with you here that evolution and e=mc2 make for highly visible, honey pots tempting all manner of oddball, legend-in-their-minds geniuses (or the pious pompous religious

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-12-03 Thread LizR
On 3 December 2014 at 17:45, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Not only that I notice that all the characters in you post have previously been posted by me. STOP THIS PLAGARISM! That gave me a much needed laugh, thanks Brent! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-12-03 Thread LizR
On 3 December 2014 at 19:25, zibb...@gmail.com wrote: It goes without saying you seek to make a statement about me somewhere there. I'll try to catch my flaws a little more frequently. But something I definitely do is apologize when I see I've mistreated someone. I mean here. I wonder if

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-02 Thread LizR
On 2 December 2014 at 22:56, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 02 Dec 2014, at 01:18, LizR wrote: Unicorns exist, but they are more commonly called rhinos. Hmmm... OK. With a large definition of unicorn. I mean those are very large unicorns! The point is that may have been

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-12-02 Thread LizR
On 3 December 2014 at 16:00, zibb...@gmail.com wrote: But then you say The multiverse did it In the library, the kitchen, the study and the drawing room ... with the gun, the rope, the lead piping and the poison -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-12-02 Thread LizR
On 3 December 2014 at 16:29, zibb...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, December 1, 2014 1:45:57 AM UTC, Liz R wrote: For some reason a lot of religious people attempt to argue that Darwin was wrong, just as a lot of people seem to have always wanted to show that Einstein was wrong. There appears to

Re: real A.I.

2014-12-01 Thread LizR
Unicorns exist, but they are more commonly called rhinos. Of course unicorns may exist, in that evolution may have produced something that looks like a unicorn on a planet somewhere. They aren't *that* unlikely (unless you include the stuff about virgins and so on). -- You received this message

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-30 Thread LizR
For some reason a lot of religious people attempt to argue that Darwin was wrong, just as a lot of people seem to have always wanted to show that Einstein was wrong. There appears to be something about these targets that attracts a certain type of person, even though there might be better pickings

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

2014-11-30 Thread LizR
OK, I'm just curious to knowI don't know what plausible answers were provided, I don't recall any that addressed this point. Maybe I missed them, I don't have a lot of time to spend on this forum (or any forum...) I suppose if the amount of DM being annihilated is very small relative to the

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-30 Thread LizR
On 1 December 2014 at 14:48, zibb...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, November 27, 2014 7:22:19 PM UTC, zib...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, November 27, 2014 8:16:40 AM UTC, Bruce wrote: LizR wrote: On 27 November 2014 at 04:51, spudboy100 via Everything List everyth...@googlegroups.com

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-30 Thread LizR
On 1 December 2014 at 14:48, zibb...@gmail.com wrote: I acknowledge that most people here have me on ignore or appear to. Acknowledged and respected. I would really appreciate views/corrections to this point however. Therefore would it be possible for anyone who does not have me on ignore to

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

2014-11-28 Thread LizR
The point is that galaxies should be expanding in relation to bound systems like stars and the solar system, in a similar manner to the universe though for a different reason (so almost certainly not at the same rate). And that should be visible as we look back in time. So it's an acid test for

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-28 Thread LizR
On 29 November 2014 at 04:42, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: Kim Jones: Yes but tell me of the examples you have found of Evolution producing intelligence without consciousness. iPhones. Smart fridges. Self-driving cars. Computers. Space probes etc. etc. If you believe all

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

2014-11-28 Thread LizR
Is this a violation of the 2nd law, or is it an outcome of the 2nd law that doesn't take the expected form? (I would expect a violation of the law to involve something anti-entropic going on, which would look to us like time running backwards). On 29 November 2014 at 10:48, George

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-28 Thread LizR
On 29 November 2014 at 06:04, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Nov 2014, at 22:35, LizR wrote: On 26 November 2014 at 22:52, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You need consciousness to develop intelligence, and you need intelligence to develop competence. IN my humble

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-28 Thread LizR
, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/28/2014 12:53 PM, LizR wrote: On 29 November 2014 at 04:42, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: Kim Jones: Yes but tell me of the examples you have found of Evolution producing intelligence without consciousness. iPhones. Smart fridges

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

2014-11-28 Thread LizR
On 29 November 2014 at 11:59, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: I have wondered if space is expanding by adding on more space, keeping the space of say our galaxy intact. Or is the actual space within our galaxy getting bigger, along with each of us. And if the latter, how would we

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

2014-11-27 Thread LizR
Still no comment on the fact (if it is a fact) that if galaxies are losing mass thru dark matter annihilation, they should be expanding. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

2014-11-27 Thread LizR
I don't understand how this works, so I can't comment on the details. I seem to remember asking for a simple version that a dummy like me can understand - and don't recall seeing it, although maybe I missed it. But in any case the 2nd law isn't a law of physics, it's just what tends to happen

Re: real A.I.

2014-11-27 Thread LizR
On 27 November 2014 at 23:29, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 26 Nov 2014, at 14:42, Telmo Menezes wrote: Nice :) One of the funny things about our sense of self-importance is that we imagine

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-27 Thread LizR
On 26 November 2014 at 22:52, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You need consciousness to develop intelligence, and you need intelligence to develop competence. IN my humble opinion you don't need consciousness to develop intelligence. Large parts of our own brains behave intelligently -

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-27 Thread LizR
November 2014 at 10:35, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 November 2014 at 22:52, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You need consciousness to develop intelligence, and you need intelligence to develop competence. IN my humble opinion you don't need consciousness to develop intelligence

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-27 Thread LizR
On 28 November 2014 at 10:41, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: On 28 Nov 2014, at 8:35 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 November 2014 at 22:52, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You need consciousness to develop intelligence, and you need intelligence to develop

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-27 Thread LizR
On 28 November 2014 at 10:56, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: On 28 Nov 2014, at 8:41 am, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: On 28 Nov 2014, at 8:35 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 November 2014 at 22:52, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You need consciousness

Re: My latest crossword

2014-11-26 Thread LizR
November 2014 at 02:37, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: I shouldn't have clicked this. Please tell me you will post the solutions so I can have some peace. On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:36 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: http://mayaofauckland.wordpress.com/2014/11/25/do-quantum

Re: real A.I.

2014-11-26 Thread LizR
Have you read The Genocides by Thomas M Disch? Super-intelligent entities trying to destroy us, but only in the same way we try to eradicate aphids from an orchard. On 27 November 2014 at 02:42, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Nice :) One of the funny things about our sense of

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

2014-11-26 Thread LizR
On 26 November 2014 at 22:05, zibb...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 6:50:00 PM UTC, Liz R wrote: And I said that it seemed to me that if dark matter was being destroyed galaxies should be expanding, and asked if there was any observational evidence to support this. Liz,

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-26 Thread LizR
On 27 November 2014 at 01:29, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Turns out that I do not understand it either. The pinhole thought experiment should decrease the coherent photons by a factor of 2 regardless of whether the incoherent photons are in separate branches or not. So the

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-26 Thread LizR
On 27 November 2014 at 04:51, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Entropy and Time seem related, or at least one seems at least one aspect of the other. Is it sensible to think then, that there are two or more types of entropy, therefore, there are at least

My latest crossword

2014-11-25 Thread LizR
http://mayaofauckland.wordpress.com/2014/11/25/do-quantum-mechanics-overcharge-not-after-renormalisation/ In case anyone out there is into cryptic crosswords. This has a bit of a science theme :-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

2014-11-25 Thread LizR
And I said that it seemed to me that if dark matter was being destroyed galaxies should be expanding, and asked if there was any observational evidence to support this. On 25 November 2014 at 23:44, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: The article was about the bad fit. -- You received

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-25 Thread LizR
On 26 November 2014 at 04:27, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 , LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: If intelligent behavior is not a test for consciousness then how do you know that such machines are not conscious? For that matter how do you know that a rock

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-25 Thread LizR
On 26 November 2014 at 04:38, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I don't think John's post implied that conscious was another word for intelligence. I think his position is that a being could be conscious without being

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

2014-11-24 Thread LizR
Shouldn't this be testable? If DM is disappearing then galaxies should be expanding as there is less mass holding them together, surely? (And large scale structure may also be different now from what it was in the past.) Is there evidence of this sort of change? On 25 November 2014 at 10:48,

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-24 Thread LizR
None of this is relevant if the multiverse differentiates rather than splitting. Then you ends with the same number of photons you started with; the only difference is that previously they were fungible, but now they aren't. I thought the general view was that the MWI involves differentiation of

Re: Can we test for parallel worlds?

2014-11-24 Thread LizR
I believe the answer is that worlds differentiate in the MWI, rather than splitting. There is already a continuum of identical worlds, which differentiates into 2 continua, one with spin up and one with spin down. At least according to the diagrams in FOR of a coin toss etc (iirc) -- You

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-24 Thread LizR
I don't think we need to worry about intelligent machines. A smartphone is fairly intelligent, for example, at doing what it does. Conscious machines, which (according to Bruno, at least) are possible, are another matter. The main difference being that conscious beings have their own objectives.

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-24 Thread LizR
Wilczek also says something like this only seems like a problem if you assume energy is a substance. I would also add * You need to take a god's-eye view to see the problem, and such views aren't possible in the MWI. * The MWI appears to suggest the multiverse is infinitely differentiable, and

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

2014-11-24 Thread LizR
On 25 November 2014 at 11:53, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: The continuing tests have been done. The results are in. That is what the article is about. I only saw references to a bad fit with CMBR measurements, there was no mention of expanding galaxies. -- You received this

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-24 Thread LizR
On 25 November 2014 at 13:41, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think we need to worry about intelligent machines. A smartphone is fairly intelligent, for example, at doing what it does. Conscious machines, which (according

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-24 Thread LizR
On 25 November 2014 at 16:54, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/24/2014 5:36 PM, LizR wrote: On 25 November 2014 at 13:41, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think we need to worry about intelligent machines

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-24 Thread LizR
On 25 November 2014 at 16:24, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 8:36 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: We've made intelligent machines, Yes. but I don't know of any conscious ones If intelligent behavior is not a test for consciousness then how do you

Re: Reversing time = local reversal of thermodynamic arrows?

2014-11-23 Thread LizR
On 22 November 2014 05:36, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Yes the Schrodinger Wave Equation is easily reversible (and it's continuous and deterministic too), but with regard to the reversibility of time that's a irrelevant

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-23 Thread LizR
On 21 November 2014 23:07, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: It seems, yes. In our branch. But not in the physical reality as a whole, where information and energy are constant, and arbitrary I would say. Energy is not constant in the MWI multiverse. Energy is not constant in a

Re: Can we test for parallel worlds?

2014-11-23 Thread LizR
On 22 November 2014 09:31, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Collapse is necessary if you wish to conserve energy. I've been trying to follow this, but I still don't get why this is so, or thought to be so. Is there a simple explanation that even I can grasp? It seems to me that if

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-23 Thread LizR
On 24 November 2014 at 09:43, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/23/2014 12:52 AM, LizR wrote: On 21 November 2014 23:07, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: It seems, yes. In our branch. But not in the physical reality as a whole, where information and energy are constant

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-23 Thread LizR
On 24 November 2014 at 00:32, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, and as the branches multiply, so does the energy. So I assume that if the branches don't multiply, but only differentiate from a continuum of identical universes (which David Deutsch says is what they do) the energy

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-23 Thread LizR
On 24 November 2014 at 19:45, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: A.I. is no closer than it was 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. Of one thing I am certain, someday computers will become more intelligent than any human who ever lived using any measure of intelligence you care to name. And I

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

2014-11-22 Thread LizR
Every time something appears to violate the 2nd law, gravity is involved. There is some sort of tension between thermodynamic and gravitational equilibrium, although obviously any system far from equilibrium should tend towards it (if it does anything at all). (Hence my stipulation of flat space

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

2014-11-21 Thread LizR
Is it possible to explain to a person of modest intelligence such as myself exacty how you're violating the 2nd law? (Otherwise I may feel compelled to quote Arthur Eddington...) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

2014-11-20 Thread LizR
This is very interesting, if I can just get my head round it. Traditional thermodynamics basically tells us that a closed system in a macroscopically distinct state (and that is able to do so) will evolve with high probability towards a state that is macroscopically indistinguishable from most of

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

2014-11-20 Thread LizR
The average kinetic energy of an air molecule is zero, I imagine, because they're all travelling in different directions and cancel out? Or doesn't it work like that? On 21 November 2014 13:09, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/20/2014 3:57 PM, George wrote: Thanks Bruno, Liz and

Fwd: The Maasai cry for help

2014-11-19 Thread LizR
In case anyone is interested... -- Forwarded message -- From: Richard Lee - Avaaz av...@avaaz.org Date: 20 November 2014 07:28 Subject: The Maasai cry for help To: lizj...@gmail.com lizj...@gmail.com *Tanzania’s government is tearing up the promise we helped the Maasai win.

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-19 Thread LizR
Collapse also doesn't conserve information. It generates new information - the specific way in which the collapse occurred, which adds some random bits to a value one could be constructing, and in any case adds that new state to the universe. Only the MWI preserves information afaics, by having

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-19 Thread LizR
On 20 November 2014 12:04, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Ah! You don't think that the collapse in one universe, creates one, in which the information is preserved? Not uncovers one, splits of a new clone, like an amoeba does. Perhaps there are

Re: Reversing time = local reversal of thermodynamic arrows?

2014-11-18 Thread LizR
On 18 November 2014 18:06, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: On Fri, Nov 07, 2014 at 10:53:28PM -0500, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 3:56 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I'd say that expansion of the universe is almost necessary, not contingent.

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-18 Thread LizR
On 19 November 2014 07:13, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: In choosing examples, John, you need to keep in mind that many on this list think the Harry Potter novels are non-fiction - somewhere. :-) As far as I know David Deutsch introduced the idea. -- You received this message

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-18 Thread LizR
On 19 November 2014 07:13, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Physics has become so abstract and mathematical that it tempts philosophers to conclude that mathematics is all there is. Surely it has been that way since at least Newton's time? An interesting question is whether a complete

Re: The Span of Infinity

2014-11-18 Thread LizR
On 19 November 2014 06:45, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/18/2014 5:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Nov 2014, at 21:13, meekerdb wrote: On 11/17/2014 2:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The bible explains better (if we assume it is correct) And if it isn't correct it doesn't

Re: MGA redux (again!)

2014-11-18 Thread LizR
On 18 November 2014 00:14, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 25 Aug 2014, at 03:21, LizR wrote: Alternatively, if a multiverse is necessary, then maybe that shows that consciousness is a larger phenomenon than is dreamt of, even in Bruno's philosophy, and we experience only a tiny

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-18 Thread LizR
According to Wikipaedia... In mathematical logic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_logic, *Löb's theorem* states that in a theory with Peano arithmetic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peano_arithmetic, for any formula *P*, if it is provable that if *P* is provable then *P* is true, then *P*

Re: Can we test for parallel worlds?

2014-11-18 Thread LizR
Message- From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 16, 2014 4:46 pm Subject: Re: Can we test for parallel worlds? The MWI can also be viewed as not positing that any new worlds are created, but that the multiverse is a continuum

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-17 Thread LizR
On 18 November 2014 00:44, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 17 Nov 2014, at 07:21, meekerdb wrote: On 11/16/2014 7:15 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 11/16/2014 10:51 AM, LizR wrote: On 17 November 2014 00:31, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto: marc

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

2014-11-16 Thread LizR
On 17 November 2014 00:31, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Heisenberg was influenced by the positivism of the time (The Vienna circles, the young Wittgenstein, etc.). That was very bad philosophy, and we can say that is is virtually abandoned. Positivism is easily shown self-defeating

Re: Can we test for parallel worlds?

2014-11-16 Thread LizR
The MWI can also be viewed as not positing that any new worlds are created, but that the multiverse is a continuum that can differentiate between previously identical worlds, and can continue to do this forever, that being a property of a continuum. How does Wiseman (appropriate name!)

Re: I assume everyone's up to speed with this?

2014-11-16 Thread LizR
Nice post, Bruno. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to

Re: The Span of Infinity

2014-11-16 Thread LizR
Isn't that the sort of thing religious people often say? They try to use their language applied to science. You believe in evolution, I believe in the Bible. What's the difference? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe

Re: I assume everyone's up to speed with this?

2014-11-15 Thread LizR
On 15 November 2014 21:30, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On 15-Nov-2014, at 12:31 pm, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Organised religion in its entirety is a veiled threat. Temporally, yes, because it is abused by humans against humans. However, temporal worries and troubles

Re: Spontaneous creation of the Universe Ex Nihilo

2014-11-15 Thread LizR
On 15 November 2014 20:27, Peter Sas peterjacco...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Russell, thanks for your answer... I will definitely give your book a closer reading in the near future, if I can get my poor philosopher's head to understand the mathematics :) I hope you don't mind answering some

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

2014-11-15 Thread LizR
On 16 November 2014 07:42, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 12:39 PM, zibb...@gmail.com wrote: The idea that computers are people has a long and storied history. I would maintain that from a long term operational viewpoint it doesn't matter if the humans on

Re: Reversing time = local reversal of thermodynamic arrows?

2014-11-14 Thread LizR
On 14 November 2014 12:58, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: No Liz, you don't want me to engage with what you say: you want me to agree with it. Or disagree politely and sensibly, showing that you have understood what I've said and giving a clear explanation of why it's wrong.

Re: I assume everyone's up to speed with this?

2014-11-14 Thread LizR
I make fun of everyone equally, except for myself, who I make more fun of than others. I don't wish to offend anyone (but I am also suspicious of religious people who become easily offended, as thought their beliefs are so fragile they can't stand scrutiny (even in humorous form). However I don't

Re: The Span of Infinity

2014-11-14 Thread LizR
On 15 November 2014 11:14, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: But QM equations are time reversible, True, or so I've been told. I believe the Wheeler-deWitt equation doesn't include time at all. The differentiation of the universe is not It is in principle, otherwise we would

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