Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 12:04 AM, Kip Ingram wrote: ​> ​ > Free will seems to become the focal points of conversations like this much > more than it should, though. > ​I could not agree more! Free will is a idea so bad it's not even wrong.​ ​I don't think anything in either philosophy or crimina

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 07 May 2017, at 06:04, Kip Ingram wrote: The initial reply to this post stated the need to define free will before seeking its origins. My own definition is "the injection of new information into a dynamic system." Not the injection of randomness, but rather the injection of informati

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

The initial reply to this post stated the need to define free will before seeking its origins. My own definition is "the injection of new information into a dynamic system." Not the injection of randomness, but rather the injection of *information*. As noted in other replies, the only avenue for

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 5/6/2017 9:04 PM, Kip Ingram wrote: The initial reply to this post stated the need to define free will before seeking its origins. My own definition is "the injection of new information into a dynamic system." Not the injection of randomness, but rather the injection of /information/. A

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

The initial reply to this post stated the need to define free will before seeking its origins. My own definition is "the injection of new information into a dynamic system." Not the injection of randomness, but rather the injection of *information*. As noted in other replies, the only avenue

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 11 Feb 2014, at 17:35, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday, February 2, 2014 6:36:24 PM UTC, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Although it doesn't necessarily follow the digital transformation of consciousness is perfectly consistent with t

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 5:35 PM, wrote: > > On Sunday, February 2, 2014 6:36:24 PM UTC, John Clark wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> Although it doesn't necessarily follow the digital transformation >> of consciousness is perfectly consiste

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sunday, February 2, 2014 6:36:24 PM UTC, John Clark wrote: > > > > > On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal > > wrote: > > Although it doesn't necessarily follow the digital transformation of > consciousness is perfectly consistent with the matter in the desk I'm > pound

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Forget stops. > OK, if they're still moving fast relative to each other then each will see the others clock running slow. > Just assume A at the point just before he stops and is still > decellerating at 1g TO stop. The situation is exactl

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

John, No, not at all. Forget stops. Just assume A at the point just before he stops and is still decellerating at 1g TO stop. The situation is exactly the same except for a few nanoseconds. Also the apparent slowing of both A and B's clocks relative to each other is due to their relative velo

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > both A and B experience the exact same 1g acceleration for the entire > trip. > Not if A comes to his destination AND STOPS. > A's watch doesn't suddenly spring back thousands of year in the second he > finally cuts off his acceleration.

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

John, 1. No. because both A and B experience the exact same 1g acceleration for the entire trip. A's watch doesn't suddenly spring back thousands of year in the second he finally cuts off his acceleration. 2. This example comes from Kip Thorne who provides the calculations. If the results of y

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 3:29 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote > The question is why when A gets to the center of the galaxy and stops > That's the key point to remember, A comes to a stop. And during the deceleration process things would no longer be symmetrical, A would see B's clock running Fast but B w

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Liz, You keep missing my point. There is NO inertial frame in this example, neither A nor B's frame is inertial. Neither A nor B are in an inertial frame in this example. The specific point of the example is that they BOTH experience exactly the same NON-inertial 1g acceleration for the wh

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 4 February 2014 09:29, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > John, > > A couple of points in response. > > Yes, I agree that both A and B see each other's clocks running slower than > their own DURING the trip. This is standard relativity theory mostly > Lorentz transform if we just take non-accelerated rela

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 4 February 2014 06:19, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > Do you troll as a hobby or professionally? >> > > Oh I think you could call me a professional by now, in fact because I've > been making many of these exact same points since the early 1990s I

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

John, A couple of points in response. Yes, I agree that both A and B see each other's clocks running slower than their own DURING the trip. This is standard relativity theory mostly Lorentz transform if we just take non-accelerated relative motion. Also note that, contrary to your statement, i

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 03 Feb 2014, at 18:08, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 2:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>you talk like if the object on your desk are localized. >>Are you claiming that a computer can emulate a intelligent conscious being but can't emulate a desk? > I am not saying that. I a

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > Do you troll as a hobby or professionally? > Oh I think you could call me a professional by now, in fact because I've been making many of these exact same points since the early 1990s I have been given an award by the Guinness Book Of World R

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 2:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>you talk like if the object on your desk are localized. >> >> >> >>Are you claiming that a computer can emulate a intelligent conscious >> being but can't emulate a desk? >> > > > I am not saying that. I am saying that the desk apparent loca

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 02 Feb 2014, at 19:36, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Although it doesn't necessarily follow the digital transformation of consciousness is perfectly consistent with the matter in the desk I'm pounding my hand on right now as simply be

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 11:15 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 12:36 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> Although it doesn't necessarily follow the digital transformation >> of consciousness is perfectly co

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 12:36 PM, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > Although it doesn't necessarily follow the digital transformation of > consciousness is perfectly consistent with the matter in the desk I'm > pounding my hand on rig

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Although it doesn't necessarily follow the digital transformation of consciousness is perfectly consistent with the matter in the desk I'm pounding my hand on right now as simply being a subroutine in the johnkclak program,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 01 Feb 2014, at 19:55, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 4:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: then feel free to "invoke some non-comp" or invoke more "comp" if that floats your boat, I no longer care. I've given up trying to find a consistent definition of your silly little word "co

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > I stated that A began his trip from earth ORBIT, not from blasting off > from earth's surface, so A's acceleration is 1g for the ENTIRE trip. > Then each would see the others clock as running slower than his own. You might think this would

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Brent, and anyone else who wants to answer, First, thanks for your patience and consideration in answering my questions. I appreciate it, and hope you will also take the time to address what I see is the crux of the journey to the center of the galaxy case below. To review: the case of A trave

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Brent, The "centrifuge" is totally unnecessary because B back on earth already IS experiencing the exact same 1g gravitational acceleration that A is. B doesn't need any centrifuge to experience 1g. That's why those specs were part of my case, so acceleration could be discounted... Edgar O

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

For a trip of interstellar distance, the time dilation caused by getting into low earth orbit will be insignificant. Alice and Bob can compare their watches when Alice is in orbit, and see that they are still synchronised to high accuracy, at least as far as humans are concerned - there might be a

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 2/1/2014 9:46 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 7:57 AM, Edgar L. Owen > wrote: > One might think it was the acceleration that slowed time on A's clock, BUT the point is that A's acceleration was only 1g throughout the entire trip which was

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 4:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > then feel free to "invoke some non-comp" or invoke more "comp" if that > floats your boat, I no longer care. I've given up trying to find a > consistent definition of your silly little word "comp" that is used on this > list and nowhere else

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

John, First, 2 substantial errors in your post below. 1. I stated that A began his trip from earth ORBIT, not from blasting off from earth's surface, so A's acceleration is 1g for the ENTIRE trip. But even if he blasted off from earth's surface at 2g that would have a negligible and irrelevant

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 7:57 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > One might think it was the acceleration that slowed time on A's clock, > BUT the point is that A's acceleration was only 1g throughout the entire > trip which was exactly EQUAL to B's gravitational acceleration back on > earth. So if the acce

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Liz, But see my responses to John and Brent on this .. The question I'd ask you is why "A's frame cannot be put into a single inertial frame of reference" if his 1g acceleration was exactly the same as B's 1g acceleration during the ENTIRE trip? Are you saying that the simple fact that the DIR

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Brent, But see my response to John. How can that work since the accelerations are both = 1g throughout the entire trip? By the Principle of Equivalence shouldn't they have the same effect on time then? But if you say it's not the acceleration, but the distance through spacetime, then the dista

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Hi John, One might think it was the acceleration that slowed time on A's clock, BUT the point is that A's acceleration was only 1g throughout the entire trip which was exactly EQUAL to B's gravitational acceleration back on earth. So if the accelerations were exactly equal during the entire tri

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Actually, John Clark wrote... On 1 Feb 2014, at 8:34 pm, Kim Jones wrote: > > On 1 Feb 2014, at 8:24 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >>> Your endless homemade acronyms that you pretend every educated person >>> should know get tiresome too. > > > Try Vitamin B 12. It is known to have a posit

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1 Feb 2014, at 8:24 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> Your endless homemade acronyms that you pretend every educated person should >> know get tiresome too. Try Vitamin B 12. It is known to have a positive effect on the mind's ability to accept new input. Failing that, you might give dandelion

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 31 Jan 2014, at 20:57, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 Bruno Marchal wrote: >> I don't need a proof because I have something better, I have direct experience of the subjective. > Nice for you. Indeed. > But that does not invalidate the point that you can't prove this to an

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1 February 2014 07:59, John Clark wrote: > On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > > A is traveling at near light speed most of the trip. That's why B sees >> A's clock slow >> > > Yes. And from A's point of view he's standing still and B is traveling at > near light speed,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/31/2014 10:59 AM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Edgar L. Owen > wrote: > A is traveling at near light speed most of the trip. That's why B sees A's clock slow Yes. And from A's point of view he's standing still and B is traveling at

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 Bruno Marchal wrote: >> I don't need a proof because I have something better, I have direct >> experience of the subjective. >> > > > Nice for you. > Indeed. > But that does not invalidate the point that you can't prove this to an > other person, > I can't even prove that

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > A is traveling at near light speed most of the trip. That's why B sees > A's clock slow > Yes. And from A's point of view he's standing still and B is traveling at near light speed, so A sees B's clock running slow. Both would see the other

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 30 Jan 2014, at 21:14, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> the external objective environment (the weather, a syringe full of drugs, a punch to the face) can cause a big subjective change. > I have no doubt that this is true. The point is that IF

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Brent, PS on quoted post: If, as you say, A's proper time (comoving clock) is running much slower all during (most of) the trip to the center of the galaxy, then doesn't that mean A would observe all the intergalactic stuff passing by him at MUCH greater than the speed of light? How would that

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Brent, So what you are saying is that because everything travels through spacetime at the speed of light in all frames (my STc Principle) and A's path through SPACE is much longer than B's (which is zero) that A's path through time must be correspondingly shorter? At least that's my understand

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Brent, First thanks for replying however you didn't address the question I'm really interested in. Of course I understand that the travel is mostly close to the speed of light for most of the trip and that explains the extremity of the effect, but that wasn't my question. My question is this:

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> the external objective environment (the weather, a syringe full of > drugs, a punch to the face) can cause a big subjective change. > > > I have no doubt that this is true. The point is that IF you have a > complete 3p theory of the brain

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Please read Lao-tseu or Plotinus. > I have read Lao-tseu but as for Plotinus I've had my fill of ancestor worship for one day. > and if you read AUDA, you will see how machine car refer to truth > without using a truth predicate. > I di

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 29 Jan 2014, at 21:50, meekerdb wrote: On 1/29/2014 12:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Jan 2014, at 18:57, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 1:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That would be like attributing importance to a name, at a place where precisely we should not attribute any importance

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 29 Jan 2014, at 21:30, meekerdb wrote: On 1/29/2014 12:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Jan 2014, at 18:53, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 12:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The problem is that once you suppress "God", you will make Matter into a God, and science into pseudo-religious scien

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/29/2014 5:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 30 January 2014 14:17, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/29/2014 5:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, Here's another relativity question I'd like to get your explanation for if I may... In Thorne's 'Black Hole

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/28/2014 6:06 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, That's just your interpretation and you apparently ARE UNABLE to find any authoritative sites to confirm it. Yes, of course the mass interior to a BH collapses into the singularity but that doesn't mean it vanishes from the black hole. Lookin

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 30 January 2014 14:17, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/29/2014 5:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > >> Brent, >> >> Here's another relativity question I'd like to get your explanation for >> if I may... >> >> In Thorne's 'Black Holes and Time Warps' he gives the following example. >> >> Two observers A and

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/29/2014 5:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, Here's another relativity question I'd like to get your explanation for if I may... In Thorne's 'Black Holes and Time Warps' he gives the following example. Two observers A and B. A leaves earth orbit to travel to the center of the galaxy, 30

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 30 January 2014 05:13, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:48 PM, LizR wrote: > > > After all my lessons in logic, I feel duty bound to point out that >> Einstein only said that he didn't believe in a personal God. >> > > No, Einstein had more to say on the subject than just "I do n

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 30 January 2014 09:50, meekerdb wrote: > Leibniz was so impressed with binary numbers he suggested that 1 and 0 > might be the goar. > > John A. Wheeler also. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 30 January 2014 07:56, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 29 Jan 2014, at 17:29, John Clark wrote: > And there *might* be a china teapot in orbit around the planet Uranus too, > but I doubt it. > > Sure, that is possible, but the proposition that God is a person or not > might have more appreciable con

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 30 January 2014 04:47, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 3:51 PM, LizR wrote: > > > The expansion of the universe was discovered in the 1920s >> > > Yes, Hubble observed that the universe was expanding in the early 1920s, > but only in the late 1990s was it discovered that the unive

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/29/2014 12:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Jan 2014, at 18:57, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 1:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That would be like attributing importance to a name, at a place where precisely we should not attribute any importance. I would use "tao", that would make the resul

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/29/2014 12:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Jan 2014, at 18:53, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 12:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The problem is that once you suppress "God", you will make Matter into a God, and science into pseudo-religious scientism, with his train of authoritative argument

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 29 Jan 2014, at 18:21, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 3:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > atheists are christians. Wow, calling a guy known for disliking religion religious, never heard that one before, at least I never heard it before I was 12. You should know that since ag

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 29 Jan 2014, at 17:51, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 2:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote >> Forget about solving it, I would much rather read a discourse that clearly and unambiguously explains exactly what "the hard problem" is. > In a nutshell, the difficulty is that a co

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 29 Jan 2014, at 17:29, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 2:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> If there is no all encompassing purpose or a goal to existence and if the unknown principle responsible for the existence of the universe is not intelligent and is not conscious and is n

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 3:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > atheists are christians. > Wow, calling a guy known for disliking religion religious, never heard that one before, at least I never heard it before I was 12. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 2:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote >> Forget about solving it, I would much rather read a discourse that >> clearly and unambiguously explains exactly what "the hard problem" is. >> > > > In a nutshell, the difficulty is that a complete 3p explanation of the > brain seems to ma

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 5:13 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:48 PM, LizR wrote: > > > After all my lessons in logic, I feel duty bound to point out that >> Einstein only said that he didn't believe in a personal God. >> > > No, Einstein had more to say on the subject than just

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 2:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> If there is no all encompassing purpose or a goal to existence and if >> the unknown principle responsible for the existence of the universe is not >> intelligent and is not conscious and is not a being then do you think it >> adds to clari

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:48 PM, LizR wrote: > After all my lessons in logic, I feel duty bound to point out that > Einstein only said that he didn't believe in a personal God. > No, Einstein had more to say on the subject than just "I do not believe in a personal God". Besides not answering or

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 3:51 PM, LizR wrote: > The expansion of the universe was discovered in the 1920s > Yes, Hubble observed that the universe was expanding in the early 1920s, but only in the late 1990s was it discovered that the universe was not just expanding but accelerating due to someth

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Brent, Here's another relativity question I'd like to get your explanation for if I may... In Thorne's 'Black Holes and Time Warps' he gives the following example. Two observers A and B. A leaves earth orbit to travel to the center of the galaxy, 30,100 light year away, using a constant 1g a

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 28 Jan 2014, at 20:01, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:05 PM, LizR wrote: > I hope those are real quotes. There are quite a few fake Einstein quotes floating around the web. They were real, real enough to provoke a furious response from thousands of American hillbillies

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 28 Jan 2014, at 19:11, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 1:47 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Supposing there is a "ground of all reality", as some would nominate the strings of string theory and others computations of a universal dovetailer, why would suppose in advance that this GOAR is infinite,

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 28 Jan 2014, at 19:01, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 1:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But it refers to an immortal person, and singular at that. Yes. Singular. that the main contribution of the Parmenides: the rise of monotheism and the rise of monism. The idea that there is a unique real

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 28 Jan 2014, at 18:57, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 1:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That would be like attributing importance to a name, at a place where precisely we should not attribute any importance. I would use "tao", that would make the results looking new-age. Use any another name

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 28 Jan 2014, at 18:53, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2014 12:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The problem is that once you suppress "God", you will make Matter into a God, and science into pseudo-religious scientism, with his train of authoritative arguments. why do you think the FPI is still ign

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Brent, That's just your interpretation and you apparently ARE UNABLE to find any authoritative sites to confirm it. Yes, of course the mass interior to a BH collapses into the singularity but that doesn't mean it vanishes from the black hole. Looking at Carroll's Wiki Bio it seems that a lot o

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

I imagine this is he: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_M._Carroll That took a good 5 seconds! On the subject of a BH not containing matter, surely that depends on whether there really *is* a singularity inside it? If it's a genuine singularity, as GR suggests, then any original matter that went

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/28/2014 3:36 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, I did read the Wikipedia page, and frankly I don't buy your interpretation that proves 1. and 2. below though I'm trying to keep an open mind. It proves that no mass is *needed* inside a BH, that the gravity alone, in the absence of matter (y

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 12:11 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/28/2014 1:47 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > > Supposing there is a "ground of all reality", as some would nominate the >> strings of string theory and others computations of a universal dovetailer, >> why would suppose in advance that this GOAR

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Brent, I did read the Wikipedia page, and frankly I don't buy your interpretation that proves 1. and 2. below though I'm trying to keep an open mind. And I'm not going to go by what 1 person, who I don't even know and who is presumably your friend says via an email. Again I challenge you to pr

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/28/2014 12:45 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, Perhaps I'm missing something but I read the Wikipedia article and several others (eg. http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/schwp.html) and reread Chapter 13: Inside Black Holes of 'Black Holes and Time Warps' by Kip Thorne and NONE of those sources

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Brent, Perhaps I'm missing something but I read the Wikipedia article and several others (eg. http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/schwp.html) and reread Chapter 13: Inside Black Holes of 'Black Holes and Time Warps' by Kip Thorne and NONE of those sources say what you are saying, namely that 1. Mat

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 4:05 PM, LizR wrote: > I hope those are real quotes. There are quite a few fake Einstein quotes > floating around the web. > They were real, real enough to provoke a furious response from thousands of American hillbillies in the 1930's such as: "Professor Einstein, I be

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> But Jason I want to ask you a direct question, and this isn't rhetorical >> I'd really like an answer: If there is no all encompassing purpose or a >> goal to existence and if the unknown principle responsible for the >> existence of the uni

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/28/2014 4:20 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Liz, No, those are entirely different effects. You need to understand the difference. My proposed black hole effect is not as you suggested but due to the uneven Hubble expansion of space around galaxies. The effect Brent is proposing has nothing to

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/28/2014 1:47 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Supposing there is a "ground of all reality", as some would nominate the strings of string theory and others computations of a universal dovetailer, why would suppose in advance that this GOAR is infinite, transcendent(whatever that means),

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/28/2014 1:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But it refers to an immortal person, and singular at that. Yes. Singular. that the main contribution of the Parmenides: the rise of monotheism and the rise of monism. The idea that there is a unique reality. That is the motor of the fundamental inqui

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/28/2014 1:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That would be like attributing importance to a name, at a place where precisely we should not attribute any importance. I would use "tao", that would make the results looking new-age. Use any another name, people will add more connotations than with the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/28/2014 12:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The problem is that once you suppress "God", you will make Matter into a God, and science into pseudo-religious scientism, with his train of authoritative arguments. why do you think the FPI is still ignored by most scientists? To say "I don't believ

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/28/2014 12:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, and most of the time, such eliminativism is a progress. WE eliminate the terms of the obsolete theories, like phlogiston, or like the cold and hot atoms of Lavoisier, or the N rays, etc. Just as an aside, "N rays" is now used to describe neutron

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 2:46 AM, meekerdb wrote: >> >> On 1/27/2014 2:32 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:09 PM, meekerdb wrote: >>> >>> On 1/27/2014 12:12 PM, Platonist Guitar Cow

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 2:46 AM, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/27/2014 2:32 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:09 PM, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 1/27/2014 12:12 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: >> >> So sure yeah, there's no limit to what you can do when you elimin

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Liz, No, those are entirely different effects. You need to understand the difference. My proposed black hole effect is not as you suggested but due to the uneven Hubble expansion of space around galaxies. The effect Brent is proposing has nothing to do with the Hubble expansion. It seems to b

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 28 Jan 2014, at 10:19, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 22:08, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 22:48, LizR wrote: After all my lessons in logic, I feel duty bound to point out that Einstein only said that he didn't believe in a personal God. From that, one cannot deduce that he th

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:57 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/27/2014 7:17 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Jan 27, 2014, at 4:38 PM, LizR wrote: > >On 28 January 2014 09:21, Jason Resch wrote: > >> But Jason I want to ask you a direct question, and this isn't >>> rhetorical I'd really like a

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 28 Jan 2014, at 10:16, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 21:59, Bruno Marchal wrote: Concepts like God, Matter, Universe are very useful, as long as their precise sense are free to evolve, like any other concepts. To stuck a concept in one theory is just like assessing that theory. I kn

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 28 Jan 2014, at 10:13, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 21:48, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Jan 2014, at 22:05, LizR wrote: I hope those are real quotes. There are quite a few fake Einstein quotes floating around the web. They were real, but taken out of the context. But they made my point

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

Oops send a message by mistake, sorry. Comment below. On 28 Jan 2014, at 05:57, meekerdb wrote: On 1/27/2014 7:17 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Jan 27, 2014, at 4:38 PM, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 09:21, Jason Resch wrote: But Jason I want to ask you a direct question, and this isn't rh

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 28 Jan 2014, at 05:57, meekerdb wrote: On 1/27/2014 7:17 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Jan 27, 2014, at 4:38 PM, LizR wrote: On 28 January 2014 09:21, Jason Resch wrote: But Jason I want to ask you a direct question, and this isn't rhetorical I'd really like an answer: If there is no a

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