Re: Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
Hi Craig Weinberg If I believe in arithmetic and you don't, should I compromise with you ? Here is the dilemma: In the long run, liberals will create a better world, but in the long run, liberals will bring us to bankruptcy. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/17/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-16, 00:58:00 Subject: Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge On Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:52:53 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 12/15/2012 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Why do they always seem to stagnate into polarization? Because people stop talking to each other honestly and frankly. Is that what typically happens? Yes, so long as one side or both accept that the people that do not agree with them are wrong or evil or _insert your favorite derogatory adjective here_ and cannot be reasoned with and must be dealt with. What can be said about people in power who oppose compromise with the other side? Can we say that it is the uncompromising obstructionists who are causing problems and replace them with people who will not necessarily vote with their party? Craig -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/r0d5jkTJGwsJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On 12/17/2012 8:15 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg If I believe in arithmetic and you don't, should I compromise with you ? Here is the dilemma: In the long run, liberals will create a better world, but in the long run, liberals will bring us to bankruptcy. Is this not a contradiction? Liberals simply do not understand the economics of the real world. The can easily imagine the economic equivalent of perpetual motion machines and see no problem with them. Conservatives fail to see the importance of evolution and so seek to suppress it. Both will cause chaos if left unchecked, IMHO. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
Hi Stephen P. King If the conservatives are capitalist, then they espouse evolution, for capitalism is pure Darwinism. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/17/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-17, 09:02:43 Subject: Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge On 12/17/2012 8:15 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg If I believe in arithmetic and you don't, should I compromise with you ? Here is the dilemma: In the long run, liberals will create a better world, but in the long run, liberals will bring us to bankruptcy. Is this not a contradiction? Liberals simply do not understand the economics of the real world. The can easily imagine the economic equivalent of perpetual motion machines and see no problem with them. Conservatives fail to see the importance of evolution and so seek to suppress it. Both will cause chaos if left unchecked, IMHO. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On 12/15/2012 9:43 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 12/15/2012 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: If you have a group of people getting rich while other people are in bondage to them and stay poor, that presents a problem for social mobility - which is being realized now as the US has fallen beneath several other countries in social mobility. Hi, OK, we need a theory of social mobility that makes accurate predictions. Got one? Could we say that the fact that the US has fallen in its measure of social mobility tell us something about the failure of some current policies or combination as having some causal effect of that fall in ranking? Sure. Two obvious ones. Reducing income and estate taxes and making students pay more for higher education. When economic mobility was greatest the top marginal tax rate was 90% and the G.I. bill was sending people through college. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On Sunday, December 16, 2012 8:20:09 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg No, I meant you are imputing guilt on me. I understand, but I am saying that nobody is responsible for their feelings of guilt but themselves. Try it out. 'You are a really crummy person for stealing that crate of booze.' Does that impute guilt on you? Craig [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] javascript: 12/16/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg javascript: *Receiver:* everything-list javascript: *Time:* 2012-12-15, 15:51:51 *Subject:* Re: Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge On Saturday, December 15, 2012 3:31:58 PM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg That's the old guilt argument. It's as old as Robin Hood and is just as likely to stay with us as it works. It's funny, I only feel guilt when I am guilty. It's called having a conscience. Craig [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 12/15/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg *Receiver:* everything-list *Time:* 2012-12-15, 14:55:57 *Subject:* Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge On Saturday, December 15, 2012 2:51:40 PM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg I beg to differ. My hero, Calvin Coolidge, the arch conservative of all time, once said, Don't just do something.Stand there. That's great if you are already standing on top of a mountain of inherited privilege. Why not stand there? But why should anyone other than the ruling minority of the world be compelled to agree? Craig [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 12/15/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg *Receiver:* everything-list *Time:* 2012-12-15, 14:46:07 *Subject:* Re: Moral evaluations of harm are instant and emotional,brainstudyshows On Saturday, December 15, 2012 2:29:50 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 12/15/2012 1:51 PM, Roger Clough wrote: How about this: Liberals are utopians, conservatives are skeptical of them. Dear Roger, No, All that is different between them is where their respective utopias lie. Liberals yearn for a future utopia on Earth, conservatives pine over their utopia in the past. I would agree with that, but the thing is, the former may or may not be possible but the latter is certainly impossible. What is there better to do than to try to push civilization in the direction of a future utopia? What could be more destructive and foolish than to try to undo what has happened and put future back in a box? Craig Sometimes one is right, sometimes the other, but unfortunately it costs money (usually a fortune) to create a demo. So liberals need to listen seriously to the conservatives. They should listen more to each other and stop the childish recriminations,demonizing and tribalism, IMHO. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/Ydy9ATa3GFMJ. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/NZZYfYXxpfgJ. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/UB3bBg-zMNIJ. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com javascript:. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/7RyknmXxl8QJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On 12/16/2012 3:29 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 12/15/2012 9:43 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 12/15/2012 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: If you have a group of people getting rich while other people are in bondage to them and stay poor, that presents a problem for social mobility - which is being realized now as the US has fallen beneath several other countries in social mobility. Hi, OK, we need a theory of social mobility that makes accurate predictions. Got one? Could we say that the fact that the US has fallen in its measure of social mobility tell us something about the failure of some current policies or combination as having some causal effect of that fall in ranking? Sure. Two obvious ones. Reducing income and estate taxes and making students pay more for higher education. When economic mobility was greatest the top marginal tax rate was 90% and the G.I. bill was sending people through college. Brent -- Hi Brent, OK, let us implement an experiment where we set up conditions that are equivalent to the top marginal tax rate was 90% and the G.I. bill was sending people through college and see what happens. It seems to me that you are assuming that these two factors alone where the cause of the greater social mobility. I would like to see some proof of that claim. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On Saturday, December 15, 2012 2:51:40 PM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg I beg to differ. My hero, Calvin Coolidge, the arch conservative of all time, once said, Don't just do something.Stand there. That's great if you are already standing on top of a mountain of inherited privilege. Why not stand there? But why should anyone other than the ruling minority of the world be compelled to agree? Craig [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] javascript: 12/15/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg javascript: *Receiver:* everything-list javascript: *Time:* 2012-12-15, 14:46:07 *Subject:* Re: Moral evaluations of harm are instant and emotional,brainstudyshows On Saturday, December 15, 2012 2:29:50 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 12/15/2012 1:51 PM, Roger Clough wrote: How about this: Liberals are utopians, conservatives are skeptical of them. Dear Roger, No, All that is different between them is where their respective utopias lie. Liberals yearn for a future utopia on Earth, conservatives pine over their utopia in the past. I would agree with that, but the thing is, the former may or may not be possible but the latter is certainly impossible. What is there better to do than to try to push civilization in the direction of a future utopia? What could be more destructive and foolish than to try to undo what has happened and put future back in a box? Craig Sometimes one is right, sometimes the other, but unfortunately it costs money (usually a fortune) to create a demo. So liberals need to listen seriously to the conservatives. They should listen more to each other and stop the childish recriminations,demonizing and tribalism, IMHO. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/Ydy9ATa3GFMJ. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com javascript:. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/NZZYfYXxpfgJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
Hi Craig Weinberg That's the old guilt argument. It's as old as Robin Hood and is just as likely to stay with us as it works. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/15/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-15, 14:55:57 Subject: Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge On Saturday, December 15, 2012 2:51:40 PM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg I beg to differ. My hero, Calvin Coolidge, the arch conservative of all time, once said, Don't just do something.Stand there. That's great if you are already standing on top of a mountain of inherited privilege. Why not stand there? But why should anyone other than the ruling minority of the world be compelled to agree? Craig [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 12/15/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-15, 14:46:07 Subject: Re: Moral evaluations of harm are instant and emotional,brainstudyshows On Saturday, December 15, 2012 2:29:50 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 12/15/2012 1:51 PM, Roger Clough wrote: How about this: Liberals are utopians, conservatives are skeptical of them. Dear Roger, No, All that is different between them is where their respective utopias lie. Liberals yearn for a future utopia on Earth, conservatives pine over their utopia in the past. I would agree with that, but the thing is, the former may or may not be possible but the latter is certainly impossible. What is there better to do than to try to push civilization in the direction of a future utopia? What could be more destructive and foolish than to try to undo what has happened and put future back in a box? Craig Sometimes one is right, sometimes the other, but unfortunately it costs money (usually a fortune) to create a demo. So liberals need to listen seriously to the conservatives. They should listen more to each other and stop the childish recriminations,demonizing and tribalism, IMHO. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/Ydy9ATa3GFMJ. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/NZZYfYXxpfgJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On 12/15/2012 2:55 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, December 15, 2012 2:51:40 PM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg I beg to differ. My hero, Calvin Coolidge, the arch conservative of all time, once said, Don't just do something.Stand there. That's great if you are already standing on top of a mountain of inherited privilege. Why not stand there? But why should anyone other than the ruling minority of the world be compelled to agree? Hi Craig, Ah, the chestnuts of Social Justice theory. So are we bound and shackled to a position in life by things over which we individually have no control? No, not ever! This kind of thinking is identical to the doctrine of the fall that the Abrahamics use to subdue the masses by the means of guilt. I reject the entire idea that I have a debt to pay because some ancestor of mine may have done X, Y or Z. We are all the same All-Soul in different circumstances, not able to see past the momentary differences between what we think we are and what we really are. Any action that merely highlights differences is an error to be avoided. Seek truth, eliminate errors.. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On Saturday, December 15, 2012 3:31:58 PM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg That's the old guilt argument. It's as old as Robin Hood and is just as likely to stay with us as it works. It's funny, I only feel guilt when I am guilty. It's called having a conscience. Craig [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] javascript: 12/15/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg javascript: *Receiver:* everything-list javascript: *Time:* 2012-12-15, 14:55:57 *Subject:* Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge On Saturday, December 15, 2012 2:51:40 PM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg I beg to differ. My hero, Calvin Coolidge, the arch conservative of all time, once said, Don't just do something.Stand there. That's great if you are already standing on top of a mountain of inherited privilege. Why not stand there? But why should anyone other than the ruling minority of the world be compelled to agree? Craig [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 12/15/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg *Receiver:* everything-list *Time:* 2012-12-15, 14:46:07 *Subject:* Re: Moral evaluations of harm are instant and emotional,brainstudyshows On Saturday, December 15, 2012 2:29:50 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 12/15/2012 1:51 PM, Roger Clough wrote: How about this: Liberals are utopians, conservatives are skeptical of them. Dear Roger, No, All that is different between them is where their respective utopias lie. Liberals yearn for a future utopia on Earth, conservatives pine over their utopia in the past. I would agree with that, but the thing is, the former may or may not be possible but the latter is certainly impossible. What is there better to do than to try to push civilization in the direction of a future utopia? What could be more destructive and foolish than to try to undo what has happened and put future back in a box? Craig Sometimes one is right, sometimes the other, but unfortunately it costs money (usually a fortune) to create a demo. So liberals need to listen seriously to the conservatives. They should listen more to each other and stop the childish recriminations,demonizing and tribalism, IMHO. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/Ydy9ATa3GFMJ. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/NZZYfYXxpfgJ. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com javascript:. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/UB3bBg-zMNIJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On 12/15/2012 4:21 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, December 15, 2012 3:50:36 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 12/15/2012 2:55 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, December 15, 2012 2:51:40 PM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg I beg to differ. My hero, Calvin Coolidge, the arch conservative of all time, once said, Don't just do something.Stand there. That's great if you are already standing on top of a mountain of inherited privilege. Why not stand there? But why should anyone other than the ruling minority of the world be compelled to agree? Hi Craig, Ah, the chestnuts of Social Justice theory. So are we bound and shackled to a position in life by things over which we individually have no control? No, not ever! There is a difference between being conscious of your position and of other people's position and being bound or shackled by it. Knowing that you are living in a country in which your ancestors were actually literally bound and shacked by the ancestors of your landlord and your boss is not something you should have to pretend doesn't shape your opportunities. HEY! Good, some pushback from your own mind!! OK, let us look at this hypothesis: X is not something you should have to pretend doesn't shape your opportunities Y such that Y is the current state of being what you are and X is what one's ancestors where and X is the predecesor of Y in some sequence. This means that some past state of being exactly determined that what you are now and thus you are nothing other than a copy of their state. Do you agree that who you are (in a total sense) is exactly determined by some other people who are just like you but that are not you? This kind of thinking is identical to the doctrine of the fall that the Abrahamics use to subdue the masses by the means of guilt. I reject the entire idea that I have a debt to pay because some ancestor of mine may have done X, Y or Z. I don't suggest that. I don't suggest guilt. I suggest consideration of those who are not in your position. OH K! Clear the room of all childrens, pets and non-insured. _/*HOW THE FUCK WOULD YOU KNOW I AM NOT TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION ANYONE?*/_ ... Breath deeply OK. Calm Can you answer my question? The point of knowing the history of genocide and oppression in America and the role that it played and continues to play in our standard of living (for the 0.01% especially) is not to inspire guilt at all, it is to inspire genuine compassion and understanding. It is an invitation to see things from the staggeringly different perspective of the people living next door, or on the other side of town. It is well understood that to draw conclusions from a non-faithful sample of a population is to bias any possible prediction. Why are you focusing on some partition of some equivalence class: white, green, pink, yellow, purple, black,... or latino, texano, letivo, ... or what ever some finite list you can come up with to be a faithful sample of Reality? I am not interested in any proclamation by a person or whatever that cannot possibly be true! Faithfull samples are such that they exactly match one-to-one with their total ensemble iff number of variants that total ensemble goes to infinity. No difference at all between what it is and what made it. Nice, so we have a neat way of matching up the ancestors of some crime we define now to exist in the world and some presently existing person or thing that has that ancestor. Oh Shit! If my Dad is a Jew and my mother is a Cambodian and their parents I will be a victim from any point of view and thus genocide! Must be avenged! Think about what I am saying. People statistics is amazing when used correctly and not hard to figure out! We are all the same All-Soul in different circumstances, not able to see past the momentary differences between what we think we are and what we really are. Some momentary differences last for many lifetimes though. Yep they sure are. Especially those that are manipulated to become edge issues. Political science is fun too, it is just the study of interacting chaotic systems! ;-) Craig _Any action that merely highlights differences is an error to be avoided. Seek truth, eliminate errors..__ _ Yep. A nice line, I must say so myself. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On 12/15/2012 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Can you answer my question? Because conservatives generally speak from the perspective of the dominant culture. Hi Craig, Are there some other characteristics of conservatives that identifies them? Does the particular nature of the culture matter for you? The perspective is always - 'people who aren't like me have it easy' or 'inequality isn't important'. It's never 'yes, of course as a white male in the US, I am among the most privileged people who has ever lived, and I recognize the problems that might pose to others outside of my group and how important it is to address those problems and participate with those others as equals to the extent that I can.' OK, being born into a class automatically places a burden on one's life or otherwise coerces a person to act in a certain way? Really? Is this an absolute fact? Care for a minority report on that? -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On 12/15/2012 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It is well understood that to draw conclusions from a non-faithful sample of a population is to bias any possible prediction. Why are you focusing on some partition of some equivalence class: white, green, pink, yellow, purple, black,... or latino, texano, letivo, ... or what ever some finite list you can come up with to be a faithful sample of Reality? I am not interested in any proclamation by a person or whatever that cannot possibly be true! I don't understand the complexity. The US is the richest country because it had vast natural resources, slaves and immigrants to extract them, and relatively no real political threats on any geographic side. Is that not true? The beneficiaries of that wealth are almost exclusively white Europeans with many customs and values in common. Many who did not benefit from that prosperity were also white Europeans but disproportionately they were not. Is that controversial? Hi Craig, What about the Chinese, or, the Icelanders or the natives of Bora Bora, are they exempt from a debt of social justice to some group of people currently living merely because they had ancestors that had vast natural resources, slaves and immigrants to extract them, and relatively no real political threats on any geographic side. It depends of the measure of vast. What difference should it make where one is from or what one's particular ancestors are when we can arbitrarily define some past behavior of that class of people to have been criminal in a retroactive way? If one looks hard enough, any class of people has been victimized by some other! This fact makes the entire thesis of social justice https://www.google.com/#hl=entbo=doutput=searchsclient=psy-abq=thesis+of+social+justiceoq=thesis+of+social+justicegs_l=hp.12..0i22.2231.2231.0.6976.1.1.0.0.0.0.446.446.4-1.1.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.2.kJVtTtFZ3rUpbx=1bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.bvm=bv.1355325884,d.eWUfp=dbbeaa135e1ac0b0bpcl=39967673biw=1120bih=596 fall apart at the seams. Or are you saying it's true but meaningless? I am saying that it is not even wrong. What I am saying is that arguments that assume any sort of revisionistic or reverse determinism must be treated very carefully. They are allowed under very special circumstances, such as those that Mitra talks about, but in general situations, not at all. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On 12/15/2012 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You won't be a victim, but you will be at a disadvantage if you are trying to live and prosper in a Conservative world which focuses on the way things were rather than they way they are now, or could be, or should be. Hi Craig, What is the difference that makes a difference between being a victim (of some oppressive action) and being at a disadvantage. The same outcomes obtain! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On 12/15/2012 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Why do they always seem to stagnate into polarization? Because people stop talking to each other honestly and frankly. Is that what typically happens? Yes, so long as one side or both accept that the people that do not agree with them are wrong or evil or _insert your favorite derogatory adjective here_ and cannot be reasoned with and must be dealt with. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:43:42 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 12/15/2012 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: If you have a group of people getting rich while other people are in bondage to them and stay poor, that presents a problem for social mobility - which is being realized now as the US has fallen beneath several other countries in social mobility. Hi, OK, we need a theory of social mobility that makes accurate predictions. Got one? Could we say that the fact that the US has fallen in its measure of social mobility tell us something about the failure of some current policies or combination as having some causal effect of that fall in ranking? The failure to recognize Supply-Side economics as the transparent fraud that it was is to blame in my opinion. They don't make that case here, but you can see from the graph that the new, lower post-war pattern begins in the mid 80s. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-american-dream-is-now-a-myth-2012-6 Craig -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/9cAZUnK8fn8J. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:52:53 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 12/15/2012 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Why do they always seem to stagnate into polarization? Because people stop talking to each other honestly and frankly. Is that what typically happens? Yes, so long as one side or both accept that the people that do not agree with them are wrong or evil or _insert your favorite derogatory adjective here_ and cannot be reasoned with and must be dealt with. What can be said about people in power who oppose compromise with the other side? Can we say that it is the uncompromising obstructionists who are causing problems and replace them with people who will not necessarily vote with their party? Craig -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/r0d5jkTJGwsJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:15:28 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 12/15/2012 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Can you answer my question? Because conservatives generally speak from the perspective of the dominant culture. Hi Craig, Are there some other characteristics of conservatives that identifies them? Does the particular nature of the culture matter for you? Lakoff seems to be on to something when he says that conservatives represent the view of the strict father oriented family. Which gibes with the whole 'pathology rooted in fear and aggression' diagnosis in that study I quoted. The perspective is always - 'people who aren't like me have it easy' or 'inequality isn't important'. It's never 'yes, of course as a white male in the US, I am among the most privileged people who has ever lived, and I recognize the problems that might pose to others outside of my group and how important it is to address those problems and participate with those others as equals to the extent that I can.' OK, being born into a class automatically places a burden on one's life or otherwise coerces a person to act in a certain way? Really? Is this an absolute fact? Care for a minority report on that? It's not about how a person acts, it's about where the person is allowed to act. What country clubs they have access to. How long they have to tour Europe after college before they get come home and apply for six figure jobs. Craig -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/QYV1w-m-5E8J. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:50:08 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 12/15/2012 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You won't be a victim, but you will be at a disadvantage if you are trying to live and prosper in a Conservative world which focuses on the way things were rather than they way they are now, or could be, or should be. Hi Craig, What is the difference that makes a difference between being a victim (of some oppressive action) and being at a disadvantage. The same outcomes obtain! It's the framing. Calling someone a victim implicitly frames them as a loser, and object. Being at a disadvantage is a neutral term describing the effect on society without injecting personal fault. It's the simple fact rather than a judgment of victim-victimizer. Again, I'm not saying there was any other way that an empire like the US could have prospered in the past, I only observe that it is not prospering now and this is clearly why. Craig -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/fXIqhgCpWN4J. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:40:58 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 12/15/2012 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It is well understood that to draw conclusions from a non-faithful sample of a population is to bias any possible prediction. Why are you focusing on some partition of some equivalence class: white, green, pink, yellow, purple, black,... or latino, texano, letivo, ... or what ever some finite list you can come up with to be a faithful sample of Reality? I am not interested in any proclamation by a person or whatever that cannot possibly be true! I don't understand the complexity. The US is the richest country because it had vast natural resources, slaves and immigrants to extract them, and relatively no real political threats on any geographic side. Is that not true? The beneficiaries of that wealth are almost exclusively white Europeans with many customs and values in common. Many who did not benefit from that prosperity were also white Europeans but disproportionately they were not. Is that controversial? Hi Craig, What about the Chinese, You mean the indentured servant Chinese that were worked to death building the railroads? or, the Icelanders or the natives of Bora Bora, are they exempt from a debt of social justice to some group of people currently living merely because they had ancestors that had vast natural resources, slaves and immigrants to extract them, and relatively no real political threats on any geographic side. That's up to them. Scandinavia is hugely privileged I would say, Bora Bora natives, I would guess not so much. It's not about deciding who else has to be moral for you to be moral, it's just about acknowledging that if you are a black male in America you are six times more likely to go to prison than a white male - and that this fact is not because white males don't break the law as much as black males. It depends of the measure of vast. What difference should it make where one is from or what one's particular ancestors are when we can arbitrarily define some past behavior of that class of people to have been criminal in a retroactive way? If one looks hard enough, any class of people has been victimized by some other! This fact makes the entire thesis of social justicehttps://www.google.com/#hl=entbo=doutput=searchsclient=psy-abq=thesis+of+social+justiceoq=thesis+of+social+justicegs_l=hp.12..0i22.2231.2231.0.6976.1.1.0.0.0.0.446.446.4-1.1.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.2.kJVtTtFZ3rUpbx=1bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.bvm=bv.1355325884,d.eWUfp=dbbeaa135e1ac0b0bpcl=39967673biw=1120bih=596fall apart at the seams. This is 100% bogus talking points. Look at the statistics. Listen to what actual people say. If you are wearing your ancestry on your face, police look at you different. They pull you over for no reason. They question you on the street. Who other world for non-whites in the US. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it surprises me or that non-whites are better than whites and made saintly by the baggage of being a minority in the US, I'm just saying that if you can't see that it is clearly a different an unequal world for people of color (POC), then you're kidding yourself. I gotta go to sleep but I'll leave you with Louis CK talking about being white as my last word tonight: He says it better than I could. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY Craig Or are you saying it's true but meaningless? I am saying that it is not even wrong. What I am saying is that arguments that assume any sort of revisionistic or reverse determinism must be treated very carefully. They are allowed under very special circumstances, such as those that Mitra talks about, but in general situations, not at all. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/K-Smo5Ac0uYJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On 12/16/2012 12:55 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:43:42 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 12/15/2012 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: If you have a group of people getting rich while other people are in bondage to them and stay poor, that presents a problem for social mobility - which is being realized now as the US has fallen beneath several other countries in social mobility. Hi, OK, we need a theory of social mobility that makes accurate predictions. Got one? Could we say that the fact that the US has fallen in its measure of social mobility tell us something about the failure of some current policies or combination as having some causal effect of that fall in ranking? The failure to recognize Supply-Side economics as the transparent fraud that it was is to blame in my opinion. How exactly did S-S economics fail to achieve exactly what they where proposed to be able to do? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply-side_economics Supply-side economics is a school of macroeconomic thought that argues that economic growth can be most effectively created by lowering barriers for people to produce (supply) goods and services, such as lowering income tax and capital gains tax rates, and by allowing greater flexibility by reducing regulation. According to supply-side economics, consumers will then benefit from a greater supply of goods and services at lower prices. Typical policy recommendations of supply-side economists are lower marginal tax rates and less regulation. The Laffer curve embodies a tenet of supply side economics: that government tax revenues are the same at 100% tax rates as at 0% tax rates. The tax rate that achieves highest government revenues is somewhere in between. Whether it is worth the corresponding decrease in economic growth that is often assumed by supply-side economists to accompany such a rate increase is a policy question. They don't make that case here, but you can see from the graph that the new, lower post-war pattern begins in the mid 80s. No. I see a pattern that begins in the 1960's. The Korean and Vietnam wars had trivial economic consequences compared to WWII, so post war starts mid 1940's. There is a big slump 1940 - 1960, then it levels off and the Upward and Downward P.o.M. numbers get real close and start converging 1985'ish. I was in the US navy round that time. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-american-dream-is-now-a-myth-2012-6 One of the most distressing aspects of the state of the US economy is the decrease in social mobility. It is much, much harder now than it used to be for Americans to improve their circumstances. In other words, if Americans are born poor, they're overwhelmingly likely to stay poor. Similarly, if Americans are born rich, they have a much better chance of staying rich than someone born poor or middle class. No one minds inequality as long as one's station in life is a function of one's own decisions and effort. When inequality becomes the luck of the draw, however, if becomes much more profoundly unfair. America's social mobility is now not only one of the lowest in the country's history--it's one of the lowest in the first world. What changed in the US that might have been a main contributing cause to the decrease? Check a side by side with a chart of the US GDP percentage spent by the government on non-Constitutionally mandated activity since 1940 to 2000. Interesting! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On 12/16/2012 12:58 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: What can be said about people in power who oppose compromise with the other side? Can we say that it is the uncompromising obstructionists who are causing problems and replace them with people who will not necessarily vote with their party? Off with their heads! ~ Red Queen. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On 12/16/2012 1:02 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: t's not about how a person acts, it's about where the person is allowed to act. Allowed, how? Allowed implies not-allowed as well. Please understand that I am not defending conservatism! I am defending logic and reason! What country clubs they have access to. How long they have to tour Europe after college before they get come home and apply for six figure jobs. OK, Line up people that exist in those classes and fire away. Problem solved! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On 12/16/2012 1:05 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: What is the difference that makes a difference between being a victim (of some oppressive action) and being at a disadvantage. The same outcomes obtain! It's the framing. Calling someone a victim implicitly frames them as a loser, and object. Being at a disadvantage is a neutral term describing the effect on society without injecting personal fault. It's the simple fact rather than a judgment of victim-victimizer. Again, I'm not saying there was any other way that an empire like the US could have prospered in the past, I only observe that it is not prospering now and this is clearly why. Hi Craig, Indeed, but how framings are selected is an implicit form of framing itself! But, waitafrakinminute, why is the US in decline now, again? -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge
On 12/16/2012 1:18 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: if you are a black male in America you are six times more likely to go to prison than a white male - and that this fact is not because white males don't break the law as much as black males. No, it is because of the disparity caused by a lack of education, IMHO. http://web.archive.org/web/20051228145956/http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/p02.pdf In 2002, 93.2% of prisoners were male. 10.4% of the black males in the United States between the ages of 25 and 29 were sentenced and in prison by year end, as were 2.4% of Hispanic males and 1.2% of white males. I notice in this paper an absence of discussion of the statistics of indictments and acquittals per classification, which might show some more interesting patterns from which we might draw conclusions. What does skin color have to do with? Why are we even noticing it? -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
