Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-08 Thread John M

Stathis, you put me on the spot (as Brent did, to whom I still owe a reply).
I have NO theory. I started to speculate about things I never had the time 
to read a bout, keep pace with novelties, or even contemplate while I was 
busy as the nonexistent hell in my
day-to day &D and consulting workload.
I read some 2-300 NEW books o n new worldview-related topics, starting as 
probably the oldest one: David Bohm. Then I argued (neophyte hassle) with 
physicists and conservative neuro-philosophers and wrote a sci-fi.
I concluded in an unlimited complexity of everything existing (another 
questionmark, since I was not on the basis of  the physical measurements) of 
which human thinking formulates topics, maps, territories (=models, within 
boundaries) and we have a 'science' closed into our models.
So I formulated a NARRATIVE for myself. (Plenitude etc.)
This (answering your question: "
"...how it could be immune to being proved wrong?"
makes me immune as it is MY narrative. You don't like it? fine. It gives me 
easier explanations in MY (common sense) logic to many (not all) questions. 
Primitive? of course.
Are we not all?
I found similar thinkers (different theories and bases) galore
and have interesting discussions on - I think - 8 lists.
Counterarguments help me develop my ideas. The only one I stick to is the 
total interconnectedness and intereffectiveness in the totality irrespective 
topics we identify. Complexity exceeds the systems. We are complexity of not 
separable mind (what is it?) and body (our historical figment of matter, 
just  explaining phenomena in the evolving empirical enrichment).
None exists without the other.

I better stop because I could not hold water in a detailed wide discussion 
against all that knowledge stuffed in this list.

John M

- Original Message - 
From: "Stathis Papaioannou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "John M" 
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 9:25 PM
Subject: RE: Bruno's argument - Comp



John,

Perhaps I have misunderstood if you were presenting an alternative theory:
it's easy to misunderstand the often complex ideas discussed on this list. 
Could
you explain your theory, and how it could be immune to being proved wrong?

Stathis Papaioannou


> Stathis,
> you (of all people) underestimate human optimism and self confidence. "MY
> THEORY"? the 'others' maybe, they become proven wrong and false, not mine!
> Then again where is an acceptable evidence? to whom?
> Ask Goedel, ask Popper, ask all people who 'think' differently.
> Bruno has different evidence for his position in his reply to my question
> today than I had when I asked it.
> Not even a (confirmed?) "Pysical"experiment is 'evidendce'.  wHO do you 
> call
> a 'scientist'? the one who accepts an evidence, or  who does not?
> Best wishes
> John M
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Stathis Papaioannou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "John M" 
> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 7:22 AM
> Subject: RE: Bruno's argument - Comp
>
>
>
> John M writes:
>
> > Earlier we lived in a telephone central switchboard, further back in a
> > steam-engine. Not to mention the Turtle.
> > The 'cat' specifies IMO ignorance without prejudice.
>
> Very droll, very true! But what, then, must we do? Scientists come up with
> the
> best theory consistent with the evidence, with a willingness to revise the
> theory
> in the light of new evidence. They might not be quite as willing as they
> ideally
> should be, but that's just human nature, and they all come around to doing
> the
> right thing eventually. It would not be very helpful if we all thought, "I
> know that
> whatever theory I come up with will almost certainly be proved wrong given
> enough
> time, so I won't bother coming up with a theory at all."
>
> Stathis Papaioannou



--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



RE: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-07 Thread Stathis Papaioannou

John,

Perhaps I have misunderstood if you were presenting an alternative theory: 
it's easy to misunderstand the often complex ideas discussed on this list. 
Could 
you explain your theory, and how it could be immune to being proved wrong?

Stathis Papaioannou


> Stathis,
> you (of all people) underestimate human optimism and self confidence. "MY 
> THEORY"? the 'others' maybe, they become proven wrong and false, not mine!
> Then again where is an acceptable evidence? to whom?
> Ask Goedel, ask Popper, ask all people who 'think' differently.
> Bruno has different evidence for his position in his reply to my question 
> today than I had when I asked it.
> Not even a (confirmed?) "Pysical"experiment is 'evidendce'.  wHO do you call 
> a 'scientist'? the one who accepts an evidence, or  who does not?
> Best wishes
> John M
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Stathis Papaioannou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "John M" 
> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 7:22 AM
> Subject: RE: Bruno's argument - Comp
> 
> 
> 
> John M writes:
> 
> > Earlier we lived in a telephone central switchboard, further back in a
> > steam-engine. Not to mention the Turtle.
> > The 'cat' specifies IMO ignorance without prejudice.
> 
> Very droll, very true! But what, then, must we do? Scientists come up with 
> the
> best theory consistent with the evidence, with a willingness to revise the 
> theory
> in the light of new evidence. They might not be quite as willing as they 
> ideally
> should be, but that's just human nature, and they all come around to doing 
> the
> right thing eventually. It would not be very helpful if we all thought, "I 
> know that
> whatever theory I come up with will almost certainly be proved wrong given 
> enough
> time, so I won't bother coming up with a theory at all."
> 
> Stathis Papaioannou

_
Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail.
http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-07 Thread Brent Meeker

W. C. wrote:
>>From: Brent Meeker
>>...
>>But I like to eat.  I like to eat steak.  A world in which I can't eat 
>>steak is not perfect for me.
>>
>>
>>>People with common intelligence can easily *imagine* (or dream) what a 
>>
>>PU > will be.
>>
>>I guess I have uncommon intelligence :-)  since I can't imagine what a PU 
>>would be.  I can't even imagine exactly what would be a perfect universe 
>>for me.  Do I want more security...or more adventure?  Sure I want to 
>>suceed...but maybe not too easily.  Do I really need to be the world's 
>>greatest tennis, chess, and billiards player?
>>
> 
> 
> Don't worry. I already have a solution for this:
> Before I adjust the universe to become perfect, I will send everyone one 
> message (by telepathy) to let you decide:
> (1) Stay with the current universe if you like.
> (2) Change to PU and become perfect.

Aye, there's the rub.  I can't become WC-perfect and remain me.

Brent Meeker


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



RE: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread W. C.

>From: Brent Meeker
>...
>But I like to eat.  I like to eat steak.  A world in which I can't eat 
>steak is not perfect for me.
>
> > People with common intelligence can easily *imagine* (or dream) what a 
>PU > will be.
>
>I guess I have uncommon intelligence :-)  since I can't imagine what a PU 
>would be.  I can't even imagine exactly what would be a perfect universe 
>for me.  Do I want more security...or more adventure?  Sure I want to 
>suceed...but maybe not too easily.  Do I really need to be the world's 
>greatest tennis, chess, and billiards player?
>

Don't worry. I already have a solution for this:
Before I adjust the universe to become perfect, I will send everyone one 
message (by telepathy) to let you decide:
(1) Stay with the current universe if you like.
(2) Change to PU and become perfect.

Thanks.

WC.

_
Get 10Mb extra storage for MSN Hotmail. Subscribe Now! 
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-hk


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread Brent Meeker

W. C. wrote:
>>From: Brent Meeker
> 
> 
>>I don't think it's possible, because "perfect" is subjective.  Perfect for
>>the lion is bad for the antelope.
>>
> 
> 
> Such problem doesn't exist in PU.
> In PU, there is no food chain like "A eats B; B eats C; C eats D ... etc.".
> Perfect beings (both living and non-living) mean no unhappiness (you don't 
> feel happy when you are eaten, right?).
> Why living beings need to eat?

But I like to eat.  I like to eat steak.  A world in which I can't eat steak 
is not perfect for me.

> People with common intelligence can easily *imagine* (or dream) what a PU 
> will be.

I guess I have uncommon intelligence :-)  since I can't imagine what a PU 
would be.  I can't even imagine exactly what would be a perfect universe for 
me.  Do I want more security...or more adventure?  Sure I want to 
suceed...but maybe not too easily.  Do I really need to be the world's 
greatest tennis, chess, and billiards player?

Brent Meeker


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



RE: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread W. C.

>From: Brent Meeker

>I don't think it's possible, because "perfect" is subjective.  Perfect for
>the lion is bad for the antelope.
>

Such problem doesn't exist in PU.
In PU, there is no food chain like "A eats B; B eats C; C eats D ... etc.".
Perfect beings (both living and non-living) mean no unhappiness (you don't 
feel happy when you are eaten, right?).
Why living beings need to eat?
People with common intelligence can easily *imagine* (or dream) what a PU 
will be.
The difficult thing is how to make it.
(The rule is always simple: If I can't make it, it's just dream.)

Thanks.

WC.

_
Get 10Mb extra storage for MSN Hotmail. Subscribe Now! 
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-hk


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread 1Z

Norman Samish wrote:
> I read Fabric of Reality several years ago, but didn't understand it well.  I 
> intuitively agree with Asher Peres that Deutsch's version of MWI 
> too-flagrantly violates Occam's Razor.  Perhaps I should read it again.

This is diusputed, e.g. in http://www.hedweb.com/manworld.htm

Q21 Does many-worlds violate Ockham's Razor?
William of Ockham, 1285-1349(?) English philosopher and one of the
founders of logic, proposed a maxim for judging theories which says
that hypotheses should not be multiplied beyond necessity. This is
known as Ockham's razor and is interpreted, today, as meaning that to
account for any set of facts the simplest theories are to be preferred
over more complex ones. Many-worlds is viewed as unnecessarily complex,
by some, by requiring the existence of a multiplicity of worlds to
explain what we see, at any time, in just one world.

This is to mistake what is meant by "complex". Here's an example.
Analysis of starlight reveals that starlight is very similar to faint
sunlight, both with spectroscopic absorption and emission lines.
Assuming the universality of physical law we are led to conclude that
other stars and worlds are scattered, in great numbers, across the
cosmos. The theory that "the stars are distant suns" is the simplest
theory and so to be preferred by Ockham's Razor to other geocentric
theories.

Similarly many-worlds is the simplest and most economical quantum
theory because it proposes that same laws of physics apply to animate
observers as has been observed for inanimate objects. The multiplicity
of worlds predicted by the theory is not a weakness of many-worlds, any
more than the multiplicity of stars are for astronomers, since the
non-interacting worlds emerge from a simpler theory.

(As an historical aside it is worth noting that Ockham's razor was also
falsely used to argue in favour of the older heliocentric theories
against Galileo's notion of the vastness of the cosmos. The notion of
vast empty interstellar spaces was too uneconomical to be believable to
the Medieval mind. Again they were confusing the notion of vastness
with complexity [15].)





> I even attended a lecture by John Wheeler, David Deutsch's thesis advisor.  
> He gave me the same sense of unease that FoR did.
>
> While I have no better explanation for quantum mysteries, I remain agnostic.  
> "MWI's main conclusion is that the universe (or multiverse in this context) 
> is composed of a quantum superposition of very many, possibly infinitely 
> many, increasingly divergent, non-communicating parallel universes or quantum 
> worlds." (Wikipedia)
>
> I also can't buy "wavefunction collapse."

That is unofortunate, because if you do not have collapse, you
have MW, and if you do nto have MW, you have collapse.

> Perhaps some undiscovered phenomenon is responsible for quantum mysteries - 
> e.g., maybe the explanation lies in one or more of the ten dimensions that 
> string theory requires.

What is "responsible" for quantum phenomena is the way the universe
works.
What needs explaining is how the appearance of a classical
world-re-emerges.


>   Maybe these undiscovered dimensions somehow allow the fabled paired photons 
> to instantly communicate with each other over astronomical distances.  This 
> is a WAG (wild-ass guess) of course, but it's more believable to me than new 
> universes being constantly generated.

This is already explained: what allows them to communicate is the
fact that they occupy an infinitely-dimensional Hilbert space. What
needs
explaining is how that ends up looking like 3D classical/relativistic
space.

> However, I CAN see some logic to the idea that Tegmark introduced me to - the 
> idea that, in infinite space, a multiverse exists containing all possible 
> universes - and we inhabit one of them.

Then the quantum universe will be one of them. But why shouldn't it be
the only one ?

>  I believe that, in infinite time and space, anything that can happen must 
> happen, not only once but an infinite number of times.


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread John M

Apologies to the list and to Stathis especially!

I replied to Stathis - and "lost" the text - at least I thought so.
That happens in Yahoo-mail sometimes and so far I could not detect which 
'key' did I touch wrong?
So I wrote another one and mailed it all right.

Then in the mail I detected my 'original' and "lost" text, it was snatched 
away and mailed.

The two are pretty different.

Redface John
- Original Message - 
From: "John M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: Bruno's argument - Comp


>
> Stathis:
> "I know that whatever theory I come up with will almost certainly be 
> proved
> wrong given enough
> time, so I won't bother coming up with a theory at all."
> Funny that you of all people come up with such a supposition so different
> from fundamental basic human nature!
> We all hope to be smarter than , And speculate.
> Even those "scientists" you refer to.
> "Evidence"? that is what I scrutinize. It is subject to the level of our
> ongoing epistemic enrichment and without later findings one settles with
> insufficient ones that become soon obsolete.
> I was challenged to propose technical levels 50 years ahead. It is
> impossible. I rather try to compose "what and why" of our present
> technological and theoretical status could  we NOT imagine 60 years 
> ago...it
> is entertaining.
>
> Man is optimist. Even myself with a cynical pessimism.
>
> John M
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Stathis Papaioannou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "John M" 
> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 7:22 AM
> Subject: RE: Bruno's argument - Comp
>
>
>
> John M writes:
>
>> Earlier we lived in a telephone central switchboard, further back in a
>> steam-engine. Not to mention the Turtle.
>> The 'cat' specifies IMO ignorance without prejudice.
>
> Very droll, very true! But what, then, must we do? Scientists come up with
> the
> best theory consistent with the evidence, with a willingness to revise the
> theory
> in the light of new evidence. They might not be quite as willing as they
> ideally
> should be, but that's just human nature, and they all come around to doing
> the
> right thing eventually. It would not be very helpful if we all thought, "I
> know that
> whatever theory I come up with will almost certainly be proved wrong given
> enough
> time, so I won't bother coming up with a theory at all."
>
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
>
>> > I recently read somebody's speculation that the reality we inhabit is
>> > may
>> > be
>> > a quantum computer.   Presumably when we observe Schrodinger's cat
>> > simultaneously being killed and not killed, we are observing the 
>> > quantum
>> > computer in action.
>> >
>> > Norman Samish
>> > ~
>> > - Original Message - 
>> > From: "John M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: 
>> > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 2:05 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Bruno's argument - Comp
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> To All:
>> >> I know my questions below are beyond our comprehension, but we read
>> >> (and
>> >> write) so much about this idea that I feel compelled to ask:
>> >>
>> >> is there any idea why there would be 'comp'? our computers require
>> >> juice
>> >> to
>> >> work and if unplugged they represent a very expensive paperweight.
>> >>
>> >> What kind of "computing unit" (universe? multiverse, or some other
>> >> satanic
>> >> 'verse') would run by itself without being supplied by something that
>> >> moves
>> >> it? I hate to ask about its program as well, whether it is an
>> >> "intelligent
>> >> design"?
>> >> Is it a pseudnym for some godlike mystery?
>> >>
>> >> Are we reinventing the religion?
>> >>
>> >> John Mikes
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> >
>
> _
> Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail.
> http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/409 - Release Date: 8/4/2006
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/410 - Release Date: 8/5/2006
> 


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread John M

Stathis,
you (of all people) underestimate human optimism and self confidence. "MY 
THEORY"? the 'others' maybe, they become proven wrong and false, not mine!
Then again where is an acceptable evidence? to whom?
Ask Goedel, ask Popper, ask all people who 'think' differently.
Bruno has different evidence for his position in his reply to my question 
today than I had when I asked it.
Not even a (confirmed?) "Pysical"experiment is 'evidendce'.  wHO do you call 
a 'scientist'? the one who accepts an evidence, or  who does not?
Best wishes
John M
- Original Message - 
From: "Stathis Papaioannou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "John M" 
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 7:22 AM
Subject: RE: Bruno's argument - Comp



John M writes:

> Earlier we lived in a telephone central switchboard, further back in a
> steam-engine. Not to mention the Turtle.
> The 'cat' specifies IMO ignorance without prejudice.

Very droll, very true! But what, then, must we do? Scientists come up with 
the
best theory consistent with the evidence, with a willingness to revise the 
theory
in the light of new evidence. They might not be quite as willing as they 
ideally
should be, but that's just human nature, and they all come around to doing 
the
right thing eventually. It would not be very helpful if we all thought, "I 
know that
whatever theory I come up with will almost certainly be proved wrong given 
enough
time, so I won't bother coming up with a theory at all."

Stathis Papaioannou


> > I recently read somebody's speculation that the reality we inhabit is 
> > may
> > be
> > a quantum computer.   Presumably when we observe Schrodinger's cat
> > simultaneously being killed and not killed, we are observing the quantum
> > computer in action.
> >
> > Norman Samish
> > ~
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "John M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 2:05 PM
> > Subject: Re: Bruno's argument - Comp
> >
> >
> >>
> >> To All:
> >> I know my questions below are beyond our comprehension, but we read 
> >> (and
> >> write) so much about this idea that I feel compelled to ask:
> >>
> >> is there any idea why there would be 'comp'? our computers require 
> >> juice
> >> to
> >> work and if unplugged they represent a very expensive paperweight.
> >>
> >> What kind of "computing unit" (universe? multiverse, or some other
> >> satanic
> >> 'verse') would run by itself without being supplied by something that
> >> moves
> >> it? I hate to ask about its program as well, whether it is an
> >> "intelligent
> >> design"?
> >> Is it a pseudnym for some godlike mystery?
> >>
> >> Are we reinventing the religion?
> >>
> >> John Mikes
> >
> >
>
>
> >

_
Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail.
http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d




-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/409 - Release Date: 8/4/2006



--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread Brent Meeker

Norman Samish wrote:
> I read Fabric of Reality several years ago, but didn't understand it 
> well.  I intuitively agree with Asher Peres that Deutsch's version of 
> MWI too-flagrantly violates Occam's Razor.  Perhaps I should read it 
> again.  
>  
> I even attended a lecture by John Wheeler, David Deutsch's thesis 
> advisor.  He gave me the same sense of unease that FoR did.
>  
> While I have no better explanation for quantum mysteries, I 
> remain agnostic.  "MWI's main conclusion is that the universe (or 
> multiverse in this context) is composed of a quantum superposition of 
> very many, possibly infinitely many, increasingly divergent, 
> non-communicating parallel universes or quantum worlds." (Wikipedia)
> 
> I also can't buy "wavefunction collapse." 

If you don't buy MWI (or the more modestly name "relative state" version, 
which is what Everett called it) then you have to "collapse" the 
wavefunction some way.  Decoherence theory has shown that a density matrix 
for any instrument or observer is quickly diagonalized FAPP.  So if you can 
just ignored those 1e-100 cross-terms you're back to ordinary probabilities. 
  Then as Omnes' remarks, it's a probabilistic theory - which means it 
predicts one thing happens and the others don't.

Brent Meeker



--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread Brent Meeker

John M wrote:
> Stathis:
> "I know that whatever theory I come up with will almost certainly be proved 
> wrong given enough
> time, so I won't bother coming up with a theory at all."
> Funny that you of all people come up with such a supposition so different 
> from fundamental basic human nature!
> We all hope to be smarter than , And speculate.
> Even those "scientists" you refer to.
> "Evidence"? that is what I scrutinize. It is subject to the level of our 
> ongoing epistemic enrichment and without later findings one settles with 
> insufficient ones that become soon obsolete.
> I was challenged to propose technical levels 50 years ahead. It is 
> impossible. I rather try to compose "what and why" of our present 
> technological and theoretical status could  we NOT imagine 60 years ago...it 
> is entertaining.
> 
> Man is optimist. Even myself with a cynical pessimism.
> 
> John M

Many years ago my dissertation advisor was working a science fiction story
in which some men were sent to a planet of Alpha Centauri during the late
1800's by some kind of gun/rocket.  They return in 1970.  Their stories are
of course great fodder for the newspapers - but their reports about the
planet are scientifically worthless because they haven't asked the right
questions, didn't have the right instruments, and didn't know the current
science.  Much of what they claim to have discovered about the planet is
already known to be wrong based on data from a huge orbiting telescope
(anticipating Hubble) that has been used to observe the planet.

Brent Meeker


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread Brent Meeker

W. C. wrote:
> I think it's always good to have all different kinds of theories to explain 
> our universe.
> Whatever current theories are, our understanding could be always limited by 
> our limitations
> (as designed by the so-called Creator if any).
> So I always think it's possible to produce a perfect universe by some way 
> (although other theories say impossible).

I don't think it's possible, because "perfect" is subjective.  Perfect for
the lion is bad for the antelope.

Brent Meeker



--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread Norman Samish



I read Fabric of Reality several years ago, but didn't understand it 
well.  I intuitively agree with Asher Peres that Deutsch's version of 
MWI too-flagrantly violates Occam's Razor.  Perhaps I should read it 
again.  
 
I even attended a lecture by John Wheeler, David Deutsch's thesis 
advisor.  He gave me the same sense of unease that FoR did.
 
While I have no better explanation for quantum mysteries, I 
remain agnostic.  "MWI's main conclusion is that the universe (or 
multiverse in this context) is composed of a quantum superposition of very many, 
possibly infinitely many, increasingly divergent, non-communicating parallel 
universes or quantum worlds." (Wikipedia)I also can't buy "wavefunction 
collapse."  
 
Perhaps some undiscovered phenomenon is responsible for quantum mysteries - 
e.g., maybe the explanation lies in one or more of the ten dimensions 
that string theory requires.  Maybe these undiscovered dimensions somehow 
allow the fabled paired photons to instantly communicate with each other over 
astronomical distances.  This is a WAG (wild-ass guess) of course, but it's 
more believable to me than new universes being constantly generated.
 
However, I CAN see some logic to the idea that Tegmark introduced me to - 
the idea that, in infinite space, a multiverse exists containing all possible 
universes - and we inhabit one of them.  I believe that, in infinite time 
and space, anything that can happen must happen, not only once but an infinite 
number of times. 
 
I freely admit that there are a lot of things I can't understand, e.g. more 
than three physical dimensions, the concept of infinity, time without beginniing 
or end, and the like.  The reason I lurk on this list is to try to 
gain understanding.  I sit at the feet of brilliant thinkers and 
listen.Norman~~- Original 
Message - From: "1Z" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: "Everything 
List" Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 
11:06 AMSubject: Re: Bruno's argument - Comp> > 
> Norman Samish wrote:>> Thanks - with your help plus Wikipedia 
I now have an hypothesis about your>> statement.  It seems to 
boil down to "Schrodinger's Cat has nothing to do>> with quantum 
computers other than they both depend on quantum>> 
superpositions."> > Correct.> >> Fair 
enough.>>>> When I read somebody's speculation that the 
reality we inhabit may be a>> quantum computer, it enlarged my concept 
of all possible realities to>> include all possible states of quantum 
superpositions.   In half of these>> S.C. is alive; in half 
it is dead.> > That's just standard MWI. BTW, you didn't answer my 
question about FoR.
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group.  To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com  To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list  -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---




Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread 1Z


Norman Samish wrote:
> Thanks - with your help plus Wikipedia I now have an hypothesis about your
> statement.  It seems to boil down to "Schrodinger's Cat has nothing to do
> with quantum computers other than they both depend on quantum
> superpositions."

Correct.

> Fair enough.
>
> When I read somebody's speculation that the reality we inhabit may be a
> quantum computer, it enlarged my concept of all possible realities to
> include all possible states of quantum superpositions.   In half of these
> S.C. is alive; in half it is dead.

That's just standard MWI. BTW, you didn't answer my question about FoR.


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread Norman Samish

Thanks - with your help plus Wikipedia I now have an hypothesis about your 
statement.  It seems to boil down to "Schrodinger's Cat has nothing to do 
with quantum computers other than they both depend on quantum 
superpositions."   Fair enough.

When I read somebody's speculation that the reality we inhabit may be a 
quantum computer, it enlarged my concept of all possible realities to 
include all possible states of quantum superpositions.   In half of these 
S.C. is alive; in half it is dead.

Norman Samish
~~~`
- Original Message - 
From: "1Z" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Everything List" 
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 5:35 AM
Subject: Re: Bruno's argument - Comp


>
>
> Norman Samish wrote:
>> 1Z,
>> I don't know what you mean.
>
> That is unfortunate, because as far as I am concerned everyhting
> I am saying is obvious. (Have you read "The fabric of Reality" ?)
>
>>  Perhaps I can understand your statement, but
>> only after I get answers to the following questions:
>> 1) What do you mean by "Quantum computer"?
>
> A computer that exploits quantum superpositions to achieve parallelism.
>
>> 2) What do you mean by "Quantum universe"?
>
> A universe (or multiverse) in which quantum physics is a true
> description of reality.
>
>> 3) Why is a Quantum Computer only possible in a Quantum Universe?
>
> It exploits quantum physics.
>
>> 4)  Why is Schrodinger's Cat possible in "quantum universes"  without
>> computational assistance?
>
> Superpositions are an implication of quantum mechanics. Schrodinger's
> Cat
> was mooted decades before anyone even thought of  quantum computaion.
>
>> Norman
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "1Z" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Everything List" 
>> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 2:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: Bruno's argument - Comp
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Norman Samish wrote:
>> >> I recently read somebody's speculation that the reality we inhabit may 
>> >> be
>> >> a quantum computer.   Presumably when we observe Schrodinger's cat
>> >> simultaneously being killed and not killed, we are observing the 
>> >> quantum
>> >> computer in action.
>> >
>>  Quantum computers are only possible in quantum universes, and in quantum
>> universes, S's C is possible without computational assistance. 


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread 1Z


Norman Samish wrote:
> 1Z,
> I don't know what you mean.

That is unfortunate, because as far as I am concerned everyhting
I am saying is obvious. (Have you read "The fabric of Reality" ?)

>  Perhaps I can understand your statement, but
> only after I get answers to the following questions:
> 1) What do you mean by "Quantum computer"?

A computer that exploits quantum superpositions to achieve parallelism.

> 2) What do you mean by "Quantum universe"?

A universe (or multiverse) in which quantum physics is a true
description of reality.

> 3) Why is a Quantum Computer only possible in a Quantum Universe?

It exploits quantum physics.

> 4)  Why is Schrodinger's Cat possible in "quantum universes"  without
> computational assistance?

Superpositions are an implication of quantum mechanics. Schrodinger's
Cat
was mooted decades before anyone even thought of  quantum computaion.

> Norman
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "1Z" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Everything List" 
> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 2:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Bruno's argument - Comp
>
>
> >
> >
> > Norman Samish wrote:
> >> I recently read somebody's speculation that the reality we inhabit may be
> >> a quantum computer.   Presumably when we observe Schrodinger's cat
> >> simultaneously being killed and not killed, we are observing the quantum
> >> computer in action.
> >
>  Quantum computers are only possible in quantum universes, and in quantum
> universes, S's C is possible without computational assistance.


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread John M

Stathis:
"I know that whatever theory I come up with will almost certainly be proved 
wrong given enough
time, so I won't bother coming up with a theory at all."
Funny that you of all people come up with such a supposition so different 
from fundamental basic human nature!
We all hope to be smarter than , And speculate.
Even those "scientists" you refer to.
"Evidence"? that is what I scrutinize. It is subject to the level of our 
ongoing epistemic enrichment and without later findings one settles with 
insufficient ones that become soon obsolete.
I was challenged to propose technical levels 50 years ahead. It is 
impossible. I rather try to compose "what and why" of our present 
technological and theoretical status could  we NOT imagine 60 years ago...it 
is entertaining.

Man is optimist. Even myself with a cynical pessimism.

John M


- Original Message - 
From: "Stathis Papaioannou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "John M" 
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 7:22 AM
Subject: RE: Bruno's argument - Comp



John M writes:

> Earlier we lived in a telephone central switchboard, further back in a
> steam-engine. Not to mention the Turtle.
> The 'cat' specifies IMO ignorance without prejudice.

Very droll, very true! But what, then, must we do? Scientists come up with 
the
best theory consistent with the evidence, with a willingness to revise the 
theory
in the light of new evidence. They might not be quite as willing as they 
ideally
should be, but that's just human nature, and they all come around to doing 
the
right thing eventually. It would not be very helpful if we all thought, "I 
know that
whatever theory I come up with will almost certainly be proved wrong given 
enough
time, so I won't bother coming up with a theory at all."

Stathis Papaioannou


> > I recently read somebody's speculation that the reality we inhabit is 
> > may
> > be
> > a quantum computer.   Presumably when we observe Schrodinger's cat
> > simultaneously being killed and not killed, we are observing the quantum
> > computer in action.
> >
> > Norman Samish
> > ~~~~~
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "John M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 2:05 PM
> > Subject: Re: Bruno's argument - Comp
> >
> >
> >>
> >> To All:
> >> I know my questions below are beyond our comprehension, but we read 
> >> (and
> >> write) so much about this idea that I feel compelled to ask:
> >>
> >> is there any idea why there would be 'comp'? our computers require 
> >> juice
> >> to
> >> work and if unplugged they represent a very expensive paperweight.
> >>
> >> What kind of "computing unit" (universe? multiverse, or some other
> >> satanic
> >> 'verse') would run by itself without being supplied by something that
> >> moves
> >> it? I hate to ask about its program as well, whether it is an
> >> "intelligent
> >> design"?
> >> Is it a pseudnym for some godlike mystery?
> >>
> >> Are we reinventing the religion?
> >>
> >> John Mikes
> >
> >
>
>
> >

_
Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail.
http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d




-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/409 - Release Date: 8/4/2006



--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



RE: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-06 Thread Stathis Papaioannou

John M writes:

> Earlier we lived in a telephone central switchboard, further back in a 
> steam-engine. Not to mention the Turtle.
> The 'cat' specifies IMO ignorance without prejudice.

Very droll, very true! But what, then, must we do? Scientists come up with the 
best theory consistent with the evidence, with a willingness to revise the 
theory 
in the light of new evidence. They might not be quite as willing as they 
ideally 
should be, but that's just human nature, and they all come around to doing the 
right thing eventually. It would not be very helpful if we all thought, "I know 
that 
whatever theory I come up with will almost certainly be proved wrong given 
enough 
time, so I won't bother coming up with a theory at all."

Stathis Papaioannou


> > I recently read somebody's speculation that the reality we inhabit is may 
> > be
> > a quantum computer.   Presumably when we observe Schrodinger's cat
> > simultaneously being killed and not killed, we are observing the quantum
> > computer in action.
> >
> > Norman Samish
> > ~
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "John M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 2:05 PM
> > Subject: Re: Bruno's argument - Comp
> >
> >
> >>
> >> To All:
> >> I know my questions below are beyond our comprehension, but we read (and
> >> write) so much about this idea that I feel compelled to ask:
> >>
> >> is there any idea why there would be 'comp'? our computers require juice
> >> to
> >> work and if unplugged they represent a very expensive paperweight.
> >>
> >> What kind of "computing unit" (universe? multiverse, or some other 
> >> satanic
> >> 'verse') would run by itself without being supplied by something that
> >> moves
> >> it? I hate to ask about its program as well, whether it is an 
> >> "intelligent
> >> design"?
> >> Is it a pseudnym for some godlike mystery?
> >>
> >> Are we reinventing the religion?
> >>
> >> John Mikes
> >
> >
> 
> 
> > 

_
Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail.
http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-05 Thread Norman Samish

1Z,
I don't know what you mean.  Perhaps I can understand your statement, but 
only after I get answers to the following questions:
1) What do you mean by "Quantum computer"?
2) What do you mean by "Quantum universe"?
3) Why is a Quantum Computer only possible in a Quantum Universe?
4)  Why is Schrodinger's Cat possible in "quantum universes"  without 
computational assistance?

Norman

- Original Message - 
From: "1Z" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Everything List" 
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: Bruno's argument - Comp


>
>
> Norman Samish wrote:
>> I recently read somebody's speculation that the reality we inhabit may be
>> a quantum computer.   Presumably when we observe Schrodinger's cat
>> simultaneously being killed and not killed, we are observing the quantum
>> computer in action.
>
 Quantum computers are only possible in quantum universes, and in quantum 
universes, S's C is possible without computational assistance. 


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



RE: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-05 Thread W. C.

>From: Quentin Anciaux
>
>Hi, I've checked and I do not see an absolute meaning to perfection.
>

OK. If you want more, I will say perfection in PU is *every being is perfect 
and feels perfect (if it has feeling)*.
This doesn't mean that every being is exactly the same. They may have 
different special functions. But they are all perfect.
They are born with highest self-fulfillment and happiness (if needed) and 
all resources, no need to follow life cycles
(born, aged, sick, death etc.).
So a PU is without any wars/crimes/conflicts, any bad things, any natural 
disasters ... etc.
If you want even more, I think I need to write down some math. 
formulas/theorems etc. But it takes time.

Thanks.

WC.

_
Learn English via Shopping Game, FREE! 
http://www.linguaphonenet.com/BannerTrack.asp?EMSCode=MSN06-03ETFJ-0211E


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-05 Thread 1Z


Norman Samish wrote:
> I recently read somebody's speculation that the reality we inhabit is may be
> a quantum computer.   Presumably when we observe Schrodinger's cat
> simultaneously being killed and not killed, we are observing the quantum
> computer in action.

Quantum computers are only possible in quantum universes, and in
quantum universes, S's C is possible without computational assistance.


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-05 Thread John M

Earlier we lived in a telephone central switchboard, further back in a 
steam-engine. Not to mention the Turtle.
The 'cat' specifies IMO ignorance without prejudice.
John M
- Original Message - 
From: "Norman Samish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: Bruno's argument - Comp


>
> I recently read somebody's speculation that the reality we inhabit is may 
> be
> a quantum computer.   Presumably when we observe Schrodinger's cat
> simultaneously being killed and not killed, we are observing the quantum
> computer in action.
>
> Norman Samish
> ~
> - Original Message - 
> From: "John M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 2:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Bruno's argument - Comp
>
>
>>
>> To All:
>> I know my questions below are beyond our comprehension, but we read (and
>> write) so much about this idea that I feel compelled to ask:
>>
>> is there any idea why there would be 'comp'? our computers require juice
>> to
>> work and if unplugged they represent a very expensive paperweight.
>>
>> What kind of "computing unit" (universe? multiverse, or some other 
>> satanic
>> 'verse') would run by itself without being supplied by something that
>> moves
>> it? I hate to ask about its program as well, whether it is an 
>> "intelligent
>> design"?
>> Is it a pseudnym for some godlike mystery?
>>
>> Are we reinventing the religion?
>>
>> John Mikes
>
>


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-05 Thread John M

Bruno:
I am sorry to have asked that question.
I meant 'religion' as assigning those 'unanswered' questions to some 
super-authority and 'believe' an answer assigned as if a higher 
authority-wisdom would have provided them, whilst they came from (definitely 
wise) humans of THAT age (i.e. level of epistemic readiness). Mostly with 
mystical painting.
Then later on powers picked it up, formulated those ideas into formats 
according to their goals (any, according to the 'times')
and waged brutal wars all the way to this day.
Instead of in a  - as you said - modestly scientific manner admitting our 
ignorance. Which does not interfere with trying to find solutions
How about steering 'comp' in the direction of the 3rd millennium level of 
ideas AD instead of BC times?

Sorry, I don't know those gentlemen you mention, but it seems they want to 
explain the fundamentally unknown by parts (ideas) of the same fundamentally 
unknown . Matter? Math-cal logic? Computer science? all embedded into the 
age-old ways.
Even the last one, unless it 'forms' out itself from its rather embryonic 
phase of the early development. (Digital that is).

John M

- Original Message - 
From: "Bruno Marchal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Bruno's argument - Comp




Le 03-août-06, à 23:05, John M a écrit :


> Are we reinventing the religion?


Yes.

Now, it is not that science is suddenly so clever that it can solve the
problem in religion. It is (justifiably assuming comp) that we can
approach some religion's problem with the modesty inherent in the
scientific attitude, and then deduce testable facts.

That scientific attitude has ALWAYS been in conflict, of course, with
all form of scientism or religionism or whatever based on authoritative
arguments.
It is fair to say that Aristotelism has probably saved the observation
of nature from the influence of such authoritative arguments, but it
has saved only that, and I think it could perhaps be time to dare, at
least, reformulate unsolved old question. Comp gives an opportunity to
do that. It clearly provides the tools. As Rudy Rucker, Judson Webb,
Paul Benacerraf, and others have already shown, notably, is that
computer science and mathematical logic makes it possible to develop
theories putting light on those questions. About the nature of
"matter", Comp, then, appears to go more in the direction of Plato and
Plotinus than Aristotle. Is that even astonishing?

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/





-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/409 - Release Date: 8/4/2006



--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-05 Thread Bruno Marchal

OK John, I say more on your post.


Le 03-août-06, à 23:05, John M a écrit :

>
> To All:
> I know my questions below are beyond our comprehension, but we read 
> (and
> write) so much about this idea that I feel compelled to ask:
>
>  is there any idea why there would be 'comp'? our computers require 
> juice to
> work and if unplugged they represent a very expensive paperweight.

Sure.


>
> What kind of "computing unit" (universe? multiverse, or some other 
> satanic
> 'verse') would run by itself without being supplied by something that 
> moves
> it?


Space and movement would be how numbers see themselves, in case comp is 
assumed (that is in case you say "yes" to the doctor).




> I hate to ask about its program as well, whether it is an "intelligent
> design"?

Even without comp, but with the weaker "everything idea" we have 
already throw out the "intelligent design" idea. The problem is "what 
is "everything"?". With comp, actually with just Church thesis, we do 
have a notion of universality which is formalism and theory 
independent. It is one of the major discovery of last century. It is 
unique in math.


> Is it a pseudnym for some godlike mystery?
>
> Are we reinventing the religion?

See my preceding post.

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-05 Thread Bruno Marchal


Le 03-août-06, à 23:05, John M a écrit :


> Are we reinventing the religion?


Yes.

Now, it is not that science is suddenly so clever that it can solve the 
problem in religion. It is (justifiably assuming comp) that we can 
approach some religion's problem with the modesty inherent in the 
scientific attitude, and then deduce testable facts.

That scientific attitude has ALWAYS been in conflict, of course, with 
all form of scientism or religionism or whatever based on authoritative 
arguments.
It is fair to say that Aristotelism has probably saved the observation 
of nature from the influence of such authoritative arguments, but it 
has saved only that, and I think it could perhaps be time to dare, at 
least, reformulate unsolved old question. Comp gives an opportunity to 
do that. It clearly provides the tools. As Rudy Rucker, Judson Webb, 
Paul Benacerraf, and others have already shown, notably, is that 
computer science and mathematical logic makes it possible to develop 
theories putting light on those questions. About the nature of 
"matter", Comp, then, appears to go more in the direction of Plato and 
Plotinus than Aristotle. Is that even astonishing?

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-05 Thread Quentin Anciaux

Hi, I've checked and I do not see an absolute meaning to perfection.

Le Samedi 5 Août 2006 13:12, W. C. a écrit :
> Good question. But I don't think we need to define "perfect".
> You can check the dictionary to know its meaning.
> Your killing example won't exist in the PU. Otherwise it won't be PU.

It won't be in *your view* of *your* PU... That shows that PU notion has no 
meaning... or I should say the meaning is tied to the person who think of it.

Regards,
Quentin

> >From: everything-list@googlegroups.com The problem with perfection is that
> >this word has *no* absolute meaning.
> >
> >Then depending on your culture/history it can have a different meaning.
> >
> >Stupid example: Imagine you are a serial killer... perfect world for you
> >would be a world were you can kill at will ;) But you would say that a
> >serial killer cannot be in a perfect world (I'd say he cannot be in your
> >perfect world, not his).
> >
> >So unless there exists an absolute meaning of perfection, PU seems
> >impossible or I should say meaningless.
> >
> >Quentin
>
> _
> No masks required! Use MSN Messenger to chat with friends and family.
> http://go.msnserver.com/HK/25382.asp
>
>
>

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



RE: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-05 Thread W. C.

Good question. But I don't think we need to define "perfect".
You can check the dictionary to know its meaning.
Your killing example won't exist in the PU. Otherwise it won't be PU.

>From: everything-list@googlegroups.com The problem with perfection is that 
>this word has *no* absolute meaning.
>
>Then depending on your culture/history it can have a different meaning.
>
>Stupid example: Imagine you are a serial killer... perfect world for you 
>would be a world were you can kill at will ;) But you would say that a 
>serial killer cannot be in a perfect world (I'd say he cannot be in your 
>perfect world, not his).
>
>So unless there exists an absolute meaning of perfection, PU seems 
>impossible or I should say meaningless.
>
>Quentin

_
No masks required! Use MSN Messenger to chat with friends and family. 
http://go.msnserver.com/HK/25382.asp


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-05 Thread Quentin Anciaux

Hi,

The problem with perfection is that this word has *no* absolute meaning.

Then depending on your culture/history it can have a different meaning.

Stupid example: Imagine you are a serial killer... perfect world for you would 
be a world were you can kill at will ;) But you would say that a serial 
killer cannot be in a perfect world (I'd say he cannot be in your perfect 
world, not his).

So unless there exists an absolute meaning of perfection, PU seems impossible 
or I should say meaningless.

Quentin

Le Samedi 5 Août 2006 12:41, W. C. a écrit :
> I think it's always good to have all different kinds of theories to explain
> our universe.
> Whatever current theories are, our understanding could be always limited by
> our limitations
> (as designed by the so-called Creator if any).
> So I always think it's possible to produce a perfect universe by some way
> (although other theories say impossible).
> Then all living beings can live in a paradise-like universe.
> In this (infinite) universe with infinite resources, it makes sense that
> all living beings should be in paradise.
> In one sentence, there should be free lunch for all.
> All beings should be created perfect with everything needed forever.
> Maybe the solution won't come from the so-called evolution and the slow
> science/technology development.
> It could come from some magic (sorry if you think I am unscientific).
> There should be some magic to make the universe perfect instantly.
>
> Thanks.
>
> WC.
>
> >From: John M
> >To All:
> >I know my questions below are beyond our comprehension, but we read (and
> >write) so much about this idea that I feel compelled to ask:
> >
> >  is there any idea why there would be 'comp'? our computers require juice
> >to work and if unplugged they represent a very expensive paperweight.
> >
> >What kind of "computing unit" (universe? multiverse, or some other satanic
> >'verse') would run by itself without being supplied by something that
> > moves it? I hate to ask about its program as well, whether it is an
> > "intelligent design"?
> >Is it a pseudnym for some godlike mystery?
> >
> >Are we reinventing the religion?
>
> _
> Learn English via Shopping Game, FREE!
> http://www.linguaphonenet.com/BannerTrack.asp?EMSCode=MSN06-03ETFJ-0211E
>
>
>

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



RE: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-05 Thread W. C.

I think it's always good to have all different kinds of theories to explain 
our universe.
Whatever current theories are, our understanding could be always limited by 
our limitations
(as designed by the so-called Creator if any).
So I always think it's possible to produce a perfect universe by some way 
(although other theories say impossible).
Then all living beings can live in a paradise-like universe.
In this (infinite) universe with infinite resources, it makes sense that all 
living beings should be in paradise.
In one sentence, there should be free lunch for all.
All beings should be created perfect with everything needed forever.
Maybe the solution won't come from the so-called evolution and the slow 
science/technology development.
It could come from some magic (sorry if you think I am unscientific).
There should be some magic to make the universe perfect instantly.

Thanks.

WC.

>From: John M
>To All:
>I know my questions below are beyond our comprehension, but we read (and 
>write) so much about this idea that I feel compelled to ask:
>
>  is there any idea why there would be 'comp'? our computers require juice 
>to work and if unplugged they represent a very expensive paperweight.
>
>What kind of "computing unit" (universe? multiverse, or some other satanic 
>'verse') would run by itself without being supplied by something that moves 
>it? I hate to ask about its program as well, whether it is an "intelligent 
>design"?
>Is it a pseudnym for some godlike mystery?
>
>Are we reinventing the religion?
>

_
Learn English via Shopping Game, FREE! 
http://www.linguaphonenet.com/BannerTrack.asp?EMSCode=MSN06-03ETFJ-0211E


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-04 Thread Norman Samish

I recently read somebody's speculation that the reality we inhabit is may be 
a quantum computer.   Presumably when we observe Schrodinger's cat 
simultaneously being killed and not killed, we are observing the quantum 
computer in action.

Norman Samish
~
- Original Message - 
From: "John M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: Bruno's argument - Comp


>
> To All:
> I know my questions below are beyond our comprehension, but we read (and
> write) so much about this idea that I feel compelled to ask:
>
> is there any idea why there would be 'comp'? our computers require juice 
> to
> work and if unplugged they represent a very expensive paperweight.
>
> What kind of "computing unit" (universe? multiverse, or some other satanic
> 'verse') would run by itself without being supplied by something that 
> moves
> it? I hate to ask about its program as well, whether it is an "intelligent
> design"?
> Is it a pseudnym for some godlike mystery?
>
> Are we reinventing the religion?
>
> John Mikes 


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---



Re: Bruno's argument - Comp

2006-08-04 Thread John M

To All:
I know my questions below are beyond our comprehension, but we read (and 
write) so much about this idea that I feel compelled to ask:

 is there any idea why there would be 'comp'? our computers require juice to 
work and if unplugged they represent a very expensive paperweight.

What kind of "computing unit" (universe? multiverse, or some other satanic 
'verse') would run by itself without being supplied by something that moves 
it? I hate to ask about its program as well, whether it is an "intelligent 
design"?
Is it a pseudnym for some godlike mystery?

Are we reinventing the religion?

John Mikes



--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---