subject:"\[FairfieldLife\] Re\: Fwd\: Denmark Wooow \!\! \( from the black list to heaven\)"

   I think teaching TM is a good thing, but when I think about the 
   TMO I'm reminded of this quote from Jung: Hysterical self-
   deceivers...pretend to be seekers after God in order not to 
   have to face the truth that they are ordinary egoists.
 
 Not ordinary, extraordinary egoists.

No, actually, Jung was more precise. The hysterical
desire to be considered extraordinary is *exactly*
the thing that makes them ordinary.

By comparison, those who actually *do* stand out
in the world of spirituality as extraordinary are
the ones who seem to never give a thought to them-
selves and their own importance. They're too busy
working for the welfare of others to worry about
such pettiness.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)


 If there's especially difficult periods just after meditation, than 
 the instruction has ALWAYS been (in the last 32 years at least) to 
 take a few minutes extra of silence at the end of practice.


For this you need to know/realise that you are in sutch a period.

And even then, longer resting after meditation/programm can make the
things wors cause you start transcending again.

For me going for a work/ enjoing a good piece of choclate works mutch
better and is more reliebel.
  





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

 No, I don't think the TMO overall rude behavior can be
 attributed to stress release. Much of the TMO's
 culture has been set by MMY's behavior and
 directives. Most of us who have been raised in
 democracies and in the USA and Western Europe are used
 to a very different type of cultural zeitgeist than
 the one MMY brings to the TMO.

Thats one part. But what about the littel daily things between the TM
people ? 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)


Is that any different than the way a corporation functions? 
   
   No.
   
Should it be?
   
   In my opinion, yes. Unless you believe that organizations
   that profess to teach a pathway to enlightenment should
   be nothing more than big corporations, intent on making
   a profit. 
  
  In my opinion, no. It should not function the way a corporation 
  intent on making a profit funktions but like a corporation intent 
  on selling social goods (social work...). 
 
 Ah, but there is still that word selling in there.  :-)

Why not selling it ?

Mr Satva





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  No, I don't think the TMO overall rude behavior can be
  attributed to stress release. Much of the TMO's
  culture has been set by MMY's behavior and
  directives. Most of us who have been raised in
  democracies and in the USA and Western Europe are used
  to a very different type of cultural zeitgeist than
  the one MMY brings to the TMO.
 
 Thats one part. But what about the littel daily things 
 between the TM people ?

In my opinion, for most TMers 'stress release' is to 
acting rudely as 'stress' is to being unenlightened.
Both are EXCUSES for being too lazy to change.  :-)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Is that any different than the way a corporation 
 functions? 

No.

 Should it be?

In my opinion, yes. Unless you believe that organizations
that profess to teach a pathway to enlightenment should
be nothing more than big corporations, intent on making
a profit. 
   
   In my opinion, no. It should not function the way a 
   corporation 
   intent on making a profit funktions but like a corporation 
   intent 
   on selling social goods (social work...). 
  
  Ah, but there is still that word selling in there.  :-)
 
 Why not selling it ?

You're asking the wrong question. The TM organization
by now has earned more money than God by selling
its products and services. The question is *not* Why
not sell it? but Why not give it away, if you *really*
care about the people of the world and think TM will
help them?

The obvious answer is that the TM organization does NOT 
give a shit about the people of the world or about
helping them. It is interested only in selling.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread Jason Spock




 Bonjour, TurquoiseB. Whose fault is it.? Maharishi or TM-org.?OriginalMessage-  From: "TurquoiseB" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 11:49:01 - Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven) You're
 asking the wrong question. The TM organization by now has "earned" more money than God by "selling" its products and services. The question is *not* "Why not sell it?" but "Why not give it away, if you *really* care about the people of the world and think TM will help them?"   The obvious answer is that the TM organization does NOT give a shit about the people of the world or about helping them. It is interested only in selling. 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread Vaj

On Jan 2, 2006, at 10:55 PM, Marek Reavis wrote:Could you be more specific as to what you mean by the "new advaita thing"? It sounds as if you're implying something negative but I don't know enough to comment.Well good and bad--covers a lot of ground: Neo-advaita, Pseudo-advaita (perhaps the neg you were thinking of?), traditional advaita Vedanta, Dzogchen/Mahasandhi, Sri Vidya, etc. Perhaps you are better informed than I, but it is my understanding that Ramana Maharishi was devoted to Shiva, in particular the holy Mount Arunchala, sacred to Shiva, that he considered his guru. Ramakrishna, however, was a devotee of Ma Kali and was a priest at the Kali temple in Calcutta. Maybe you have the two confused?Yes, my bad. But then again, there you go--did Ramana teach Shaivite methods? One wonders. If you read Nisargadatta it appears that he clearly believed he was teaching out of the Nath tradition, specifically what he had learned from his guru. However, from what I've read, his guru, Siddharameshwar, taught an understanding of the Nath tradition that may be at variance with others. Again, I do not have the expertise to comment more completely. There certainly is a non-dual tradition in the Nath teachings which is ultimately very simple--but at the same time it has methods depending on where a person is at.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

  Yes there is a lot of talking about Worl Peace and so on. But do
  people REALY talk to each other ? If not, why not ?  
 
 About what? The TMO isn't a religion or philosophy per se. On this 
 newsgroup you have people like Shemp and Judy who are completely 
 opposed to each other on virtually every topic, who both meditate via 
 TM and both believe/hope that it may have some long-term effect for 
 the good of the world. What, other than TM, would Shemp and Judy have 
 to discuss in a non-confrontational way?

Thats fine for FFL. But what about daily TM-center life ?
  
  Does this meen, most tm peoples think that they can reach
  enlightenment without taking care about others and without taking
  responsiballity for theire aktion/nonaktion ?
 
 Nevertheless, the TMO's *teaching* on the subject of charity and all 
 other relative behaviors is that you follow your own 
 religion/conscience on such things. That people may not be doing so 
 suggests that they are being *lazy* aoubt their own religious 
 traditions, not that the TMO is discouraging them from following them.

Mayby that has been the teaching at the beginning of the moovment.
Today there is meditation plus MMY-Ayurveda plus MMY-Yotisch plus
MMY-Jagya plus MMY-Gandharva Ved plus a lott of other MMY-Veda-things.
I dont want to take MMY responsibel for everry of his followers funny
idear/interpretation. But he is aktualy pushing people into somthing
called Vedik culture. Tear down your citty and rebuild it akording
MMY-Stapatha Ved. Thats quite strong culturel enterference! 

  I think it is the other way round. Only this to thinks can bring
  enlightenment.
 
 Define taking responsibility for one's own actions in a way that 
 fits all cultures.

Just commen sence.  
 
Is that any different than the way a corporation functions? 
   
   No.
   
Should it be?
   
   In my opinion, yes. Unless you believe that organizations
   that profess to teach a pathway to enlightenment should
   be nothing more than big corporations, intent on making
   a profit. 
  
  In my opinion, no. It should not function the way a corporation 
 intent
  on making a profit funktions but like a corporation intent on 
 selling
  social goods (social work...). 
 
 
 A non-profit organization is every bit as dependent on customers 
 (donors) as a profit-making one. Charities have to advertise their 
 product (good works) in order to keep running. 

Agreed.

Mr Satva






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

 Quite so, but is it the case that the decisions haven't been worthwhile?
 
 Raising the price allows people to take out loans to learn it. That 
 gives it far more legitimacy than if it was taught for $10.

I can`t follow this logik. Pleas explane to me.
Mr Satva






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

 Not only do I feel the NLP was a complete waste of TM but it 
 whittled away what little credibility the TMO had left.
 
 Look, the NLP being a political party, by definition, had to take 
 political and policy stands on the whole range of issues that affect 
 the societies and countries they ran candidates in: health care, 
 abortion, gun control, capitalism versus socialism, etc. etc.
 
 Once you take positions on all of those things you are, in effect, 
 adopting a philosophy, a way of looking at the world and, indeed, 
 putting yourself at opposition to those in other parties that hold 
 differing views on those matters.
 
 Being a philosophy violates that basic tenet of TM that it is 
 neither a religion or a philosophy.  TM is supposed to be for 
 everybody: capitalists or communists, Democrats or Republicans, Left 
 or Right.  Once you take positions on things, you are bound to piss 
 off those that are on the other side of the spectrum from you.
 
 So when you announce to the world that TM is not a philosophy and 
 then, after holding onto and practising that tenet for 30 years of 
 your existence, abandon it and start BEING a philosophy, people 
 notice.  And you lose credibility.
 
 That's why the NLP was a horrible disaster for the TMO.  They should 
 NEVER have done it, it was wrong, and it was just another nail in 
 the coffin of what was once a great movement.

That is a surprise. It was different germany.
1) NLP was a quite good advertisment campain.
2) TM peopel (especily TM teachers) realised that the language they
were speaking coulnd`t be understood by most of the non-TM-peopel. 
  
Probabbly because we did not take anny political and policy stands.
Messeg was TM and no gmo food thats all.

 





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread Peter



--- Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Comment below:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  
  On Jan 2, 2006, at 9:10 PM, Marek Reavis wrote:
  
   If Nisargadatta was speaking generally in
 those talks, withholding
   the real methods of realization then it would
 seem to me that he was
   a profound liar, inasmuch as the directness,
 simplicity and lucidity
   of what he says in those talks is so completely
 at odds with
   esotericism.
  
  Not necessarily. He may have felt there were few
 who were ready for  
  his teaching and therefore only taught what he
 taught to the masses.  
  It doesn't make what he shared a lie by any means.
 Christ is quoted  
  in one of the Gospels as saying he only talked in
 parables and  
  stories to the masses; his inner teaching was
 preserved for his  
  closer students.
  
  IIRC Ramana was an adept of Ma Kali, but he did
 not teach those  
  methods that I've ever heard. So it's interesting
 to me that  
  Nisargadatta was taught my a Nath but never taught
 anything from that  
  tradition.
  
  It's interesting to see how this new advaita thing
 is spreading.
 
 **END**
 
 Could you be more specific as to what you mean by
 the new advaita
 thing?  It sounds as if you're implying something
 negative but I
 don't know enough to comment.
 
 Perhaps you are better informed than I, but it is my
 understanding
 that Ramana Maharishi was devoted to Shiva, in
 particular the holy
 Mount Arunchala, sacred to Shiva, that he considered
 his guru. 
 Ramakrishna, however, was a devotee of Ma Kali and
 was a priest at the
 Kali temple in Calcutta.  Maybe you have the two
 confused?
 
 If you read Nisargadatta it appears that he clearly
 believed he was
 teaching out of the Nath tradition, specifically
 what he had learned
 from his guru.  However, from what I've read, his
 guru,
 Siddharameshwar, taught an understanding of the Nath
 tradition that
 may be at variance with others.  Again, I do not
 have the expertise to
 comment more completely.

My take on this: You become realized through a
relationship to a guru. Some continue to teach within
the techniques and concepts of their guru's tradition
and others take a completely different turn. Brahman
blossoms regardless.




 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread Peter



--- Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 on 1/2/06 5:50 PM, shempmcgurk at
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  That's why the NLP was a horrible disaster for the
 TMO.  They should
  NEVER have done it, it was wrong, and it was just
 another nail in
  the coffin of what was once a great movement.
 
 I pretty much agree with you, but Maharishi said he
 had hoped to take over
 the political administration of the world, and
 apparently believed he could
 do it. Hence, the NLP. Another example of the danger
 of being isolated and
 surrounded by Yes men.

On my TTC MMY said that if he ever became involved in
politics, that we should know that it wasn't him.



 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread Peter



--- Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 
 Anandamayi and Ramana Maharishi are perfect examples
 of this fourth
 way.  It's the easiest and most difficult way of
 all.  You just
 gotta be at the right place at the right time.

And in Ramana's writings he makes it very clear that
the impact his teachings have on a person depend upon
the condition of the student. He said that some come
to him as a pile of dry black powder, some as dry
wood, and some as wet wood. The first ignite instantly
(e.g., Papaji), the second group take a little more
time, and the third group smoke alot!



 

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
 You know what I find fascinating? The people on 
 these forums who most vociferously defend the current 
 prices that the TMO charges for TM would in most 
 cases *not* be able to afford it themselves if they 
 hadn't already learned it years ago. But they think 
 it's Ok to charge the newbies that much. Go figure.

Who's been vociferously defending the current
prices here?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
   No, I don't think the TMO overall rude behavior can be
   attributed to stress release. Much of the TMO's
   culture has been set by MMY's behavior and
   directives. Most of us who have been raised in
   democracies and in the USA and Western Europe are used
   to a very different type of cultural zeitgeist than
   the one MMY brings to the TMO.
  
  Thats one part. But what about the littel daily things 
  between the TM people ?
 
 In my opinion, for most TMers 'stress release' is to 
 acting rudely as 'stress' is to being unenlightened.
 Both are EXCUSES for being too lazy to change.  :-)

How about non-TMers being rude *to* TMers?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
   
on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Different cultures define caring in different ways. The 
 TMO's
 founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of 
 the 
  list
 for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.

Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi 
is 
 a 
   Hindu. She
too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The 
 list 
   goes on.
   
   
   When you've got the answer to all of life's problems (i.e. TM), 
 why 
   waste your precious time setting up hospitals and stuff like 
 that?
   
   And I'm not trying to be glib here.  Assuming for the moment 
 that 
  you 
   accept the premise that TM is everything it is claimed to be, 
 why 
   waste precious and limited resources on charity work like 
 schools 
  and 
   food banks?
   
   Indeed, I would make the argument that the TMO is wasting 
 precious 
   resources with side issues like Vastu, Yagyas, NLP, etc. when 
  you've 
   got limited time, money and man power and you've got the 
 solution --
   
   TM -- primed and ready to get to the world's people...
  
  
  The NLP was relatively free publicity for TM. It also got 
 manypeople 
  off their duffs and working in the real world. Wasn't a bad use 
of 
  limited resources in the long run, I think. The New Age 
community, 
  for instance, still reveres John Hagelin for running for 
President 
 of 
  the USA on the Enlightenment Ticket.
 
 
 Not only do I feel the NLP was a complete waste of TM but it 
 whittled away what little credibility the TMO had left.
 
 Look, the NLP being a political party, by definition, had to take 
 political and policy stands on the whole range of issues that 
affect 
 the societies and countries they ran candidates in: health care, 
 abortion, gun control, capitalism versus socialism, etc. etc.
 
 Once you take positions on all of those things you are, in effect, 
 adopting a philosophy, a way of looking at the world and, indeed, 
 putting yourself at opposition to those in other parties that hold 
 differing views on those matters.
 
 Being a philosophy violates that basic tenet of TM that it is 
 neither a religion or a philosophy.  TM is supposed to be for 
 everybody: capitalists or communists, Democrats or Republicans, 
Left 
 or Right.  Once you take positions on things, you are bound to piss 
 off those that are on the other side of the spectrum from you.
 
 So when you announce to the world that TM is not a philosophy and 
 then, after holding onto and practising that tenet for 30 years of 
 your existence, abandon it and start BEING a philosophy, people 
 notice.  And you lose credibility.
 
 That's why the NLP was a horrible disaster for the TMO.  They 
should 
 NEVER have done it, it was wrong, and it was just another nail in 
 the coffin of what was once a great movement.


The basic philosophy of the NLP, as presented by John Hagelin, was: 
use what works. 

In other words, use the results of scientific research, where 
possible, to evaluate what policies might be sensible in the first 
place rather than deciding what makes sense on some philosophical 
basis like Pure Capitalism vs Pure Communism, or conservative vs 
liberal, etc., and then attempt to justify your philosophical beliefs 
by cherry-picking what research you look at.

If you think that this core message, no matter how poorly 
implemented, discredits John and company, well tough shit.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jan 2, 2006, at 5:58 PM, sparaig wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
  On Jan 2, 2006, at 11:23 AM, Rick Archer wrote:
 
  on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's
  founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the
  list
  for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.
 
  Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a
  Hindu. She
  too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The
  list
  goes on.
 
  Even Swami Rama, who was involved in severe sexual manipulation 
of
  his female students, created hospitals, ashrams and methods to
  take
  his students to full enlightenment--well beyond mere mantra
  meditation.
 
 
  And MMY is credited (along with Deepak Chopra!!!) doing more than
  anyone else in bringing Ayurveda to the West. And let's not forget
  that one of his students started the modern craze to look
  scientifically at meditation effects.
 
 He certainly helped, but really research had been going on long  
 before that.

True, but look at the pre-Wallace publication in Nature, and the post-
Wallace publication in Nature. A HUGE upswing in published reports 
resulted from Kieth's doctoral thesis being published in one of th 
emost important general science journals. No-one had had research on 
meditation published at that level before, and it legitimatized the 
field. 

 
 I'm not sure who popularized Ayurveda the most. There were a lot 
of  
 people doing it at the same time. For example the best seller 
_Diet  
 and Nutrition_ from Sw. Rama's fold I believe was long before the  
 MAPI craze.


I'm only going by what is said in the New Age and Ayurvedic circles, 
both here and in India. Also, the Indian newspapers say that MMY and 
Chopra are the ones responsible, so...





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 on 1/2/06 5:50 PM, shempmcgurk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  That's why the NLP was a horrible disaster for the TMO.  They should
  NEVER have done it, it was wrong, and it was just another nail in
  the coffin of what was once a great movement.
 
 I pretty much agree with you, but Maharishi said he had hoped to take 
over
 the political administration of the world, and apparently believed he 
could
 do it. Hence, the NLP. Another example of the danger of being 
isolated and
 surrounded by Yes men.


Eh, unfathomable are the ways of Karma. Just because MMY justifies why 
he's doing something using a specific reason, doesn't mean that he 
knows all the ramifications for why he's being compelled to do 
something. His personality is just along for the ride, just like 
everyone else's is, really.









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 on 1/2/06 5:22 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
  
  on 1/2/06 2:11 PM, shempmcgurk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  But I do accept the premise that TM works and does everything 
that
  is claimed that it does.
  
  But what the TMO has been doing for the past 25 years has, in my
  opinion, been directly at odds with promulgating TM
  
  Then I guess TM didn't have the predicted effect on those 
responsible
  for
  propagating TM. If it had, they would have made more sensible
  decisions.
  
  
  Quite so, but is it the case that the decisions haven't been 
worthwhile?
  
  Raising the price allows people to take out loans to learn it. 
That
  gives it far more legitimacy than if it was taught for $10.
 
 Does it? Amma insists that her meditation be taught for free. Course
 participants may be asked for $10-$30 to cover the teacher's travel
 expenses, etc., and the course includes two meals. Does that 
arrangement
 make it illegitimate?


In the minds of the business owners that might set aside meditation 
times for their employees if they are convinced it will contribute to 
the bottom line of productivity?

Consider these martial arts teachers... Who do you want to learn 
from, the guy who teaches for free at the cafeteria of the local jr 
high school in the evenings, or the guy who charges $65/month for 
group classes at his own studio, and $80/hour for 1 on 1 instruction?

Actually, the above are both the same person: when he started out, 
Augustine Fong taught Wing Chung at Spring Jr. High in the evenings 
for free. 35 years later, he's got his own school and some of this 
students have an international reputation (e.g. Danny Chan, who beat 
the crap out of me in a friendly way when he was 16 at said Jr High 
School). 








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 on 1/2/06 7:44 PM, jyouells2000 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  I think teaching TM is a good thing, but when I think about the 
TMO
  I'm reminded of this quote from Jung: Hysterical self-
deceivers...
  pretend to be seekers after God in order not to have to face the 
truth
  that they are ordinary egoists.
  
  
  Excellent quote !
 
 Yeah, I'm tempted to put it on the FFL home page, but there's a 
character
 limit.


As in moral character?








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   I think teaching TM is a good thing, but when I think about the 
TMO
   I'm reminded of this quote from Jung: Hysterical self-
deceivers...
   pretend to be seekers after God in order not to have to face 
the 
 truth
   that they are ordinary egoists.
 
 Not ordinary, extraordinary egoists.
 Ingegerd


Ones whose ego has expanded to infinity, perhaps?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
  If there's especially difficult periods just after meditation, than 
  the instruction has ALWAYS been (in the last 32 years at least) to 
  take a few minutes extra of silence at the end of practice.
 
 
 For this you need to know/realise that you are in sutch a period.

So take, an extra minute or 3 on general principle.

 
 And even then, longer resting after meditation/programm can make the
 things wors cause you start transcending again.
 

Do a little stretching and body shifting during those extra rest 
poeriods  when you don't have clear awareness that you might be 
unstressing.

 For me going for a work/ enjoing a good piece of choclate works mutch
 better and is more reliebel.


Chocolate is good, but so is not having too many calories...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  
  Is that any different than the way a corporation 
  functions? 
 
 No.
 
  Should it be?
 
 In my opinion, yes. Unless you believe that organizations
 that profess to teach a pathway to enlightenment should
 be nothing more than big corporations, intent on making
 a profit. 

In my opinion, no. It should not function the way a 
corporation 
intent on making a profit funktions but like a corporation 
intent 
on selling social goods (social work...). 
   
   Ah, but there is still that word selling in there.  :-)
  
  Why not selling it ?
 
 You're asking the wrong question. The TM organization
 by now has earned more money than God by selling
 its products and services. 

But not, I am QUITE certain, than Bill Gaqtes has earned.

The question is *not* Why
 not sell it? but Why not give it away, if you *really*
 care about the people of the world and think TM will
 help them?
 
 The obvious answer is that the TM organization does NOT 
 give a shit about the people of the world or about
 helping them. It is interested only in selling.


If the product is supposed to help, than whatever maximizes the 
selling of the product, maximizes the help.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  Bonjour, TurquoiseB. Whose fault is it.? Maharishi or TM-org.?
 
 There is no difference. He has never allowed there
 to be one. Any TMO policy that exists is his doing,
 either because he created it, or because he allowed
 the policy to be created and implemented by his
 flunkies.
 
 You know what I find fascinating? The people on 
 these forums who most vociferously defend the current 
 prices that the TMO charges for TM would in most 
 cases *not* be able to afford it themselves if they 
 hadn't already learned it years ago. But they think 
 it's Ok to charge the newbies that much. Go figure.
 

It makes us feel special. Seriously, do you think we're all happy at 
the price? I can't recommend it to anyone because none of my friends 
have $2500 to play around with. OTOH, MMY's stated goal of catering 
to the ultra-wealthy makes sense, has merit in real-world situations, 
and seems to be working.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   Yes there is a lot of talking about Worl Peace and so on. But do
   people REALY talk to each other ? If not, why not ?  
  
  About what? The TMO isn't a religion or philosophy per se. On 
this 
  newsgroup you have people like Shemp and Judy who are completely 
  opposed to each other on virtually every topic, who both meditate 
via 
  TM and both believe/hope that it may have some long-term effect 
for 
  the good of the world. What, other than TM, would Shemp and Judy 
have 
  to discuss in a non-confrontational way?
 
 Thats fine for FFL. But what about daily TM-center life ?

What about them? Since the formal on-topic discussions at the TM-
center are always about TM and related stuff, no problem, eh?

   
   Does this meen, most tm peoples think that they can reach
   enlightenment without taking care about others and without 
taking
   responsiballity for theire aktion/nonaktion ?
  
  Nevertheless, the TMO's *teaching* on the subject of charity and 
all 
  other relative behaviors is that you follow your own 
  religion/conscience on such things. That people may not be doing 
so 
  suggests that they are being *lazy* aoubt their own religious 
  traditions, not that the TMO is discouraging them from following 
them.
 
 Mayby that has been the teaching at the beginning of the moovment.
 Today there is meditation plus MMY-Ayurveda plus MMY-Yotisch plus
 MMY-Jagya plus MMY-Gandharva Ved plus a lott of other MMY-Veda-
things.
 I dont want to take MMY responsibel for everry of his followers 
funny
 idear/interpretation. But he is aktualy pushing people into somthing
 called Vedik culture. Tear down your citty and rebuild it 
akording
 MMY-Stapatha Ved. Thats quite strong culturel enterference! 
 


Sure, but its non-demonimational. Applies to all of India as well.

   I think it is the other way round. Only this to thinks can bring
   enlightenment.
  
  Define taking responsibility for one's own actions in a way 
that 
  fits all cultures.
 
 Just commen sence.  

Rght. And you're familiar with every culture, including ones that 
revere lying and deception towards outsiders?

  
 Is that any different than the way a corporation functions? 

No.

 Should it be?

In my opinion, yes. Unless you believe that organizations
that profess to teach a pathway to enlightenment should
be nothing more than big corporations, intent on making
a profit. 
   
   In my opinion, no. It should not function the way a corporation 
  intent
   on making a profit funktions but like a corporation intent on 
  selling
   social goods (social work...). 
  
  
  A non-profit organization is every bit as dependent on customers 
  (donors) as a profit-making one. Charities have to advertise 
their 
  product (good works) in order to keep running. 
 
 Agreed.
 
 Mr Satva







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 
 
 --- Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  on 1/2/06 5:50 PM, shempmcgurk at
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
   That's why the NLP was a horrible disaster for the
  TMO.  They should
   NEVER have done it, it was wrong, and it was just
  another nail in
   the coffin of what was once a great movement.
  
  I pretty much agree with you, but Maharishi said he
  had hoped to take over
  the political administration of the world, and
  apparently believed he could
  do it. Hence, the NLP. Another example of the danger
  of being isolated and
  surrounded by Yes men.
 
 On my TTC MMY said that if he ever became involved in
 politics, that we should know that it wasn't him.
 


walkin? Or perhaps a higher level of consciousness...





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  
No, I don't think the TMO overall rude behavior can be
attributed to stress release. Much of the TMO's
culture has been set by MMY's behavior and
directives. Most of us who have been raised in
democracies and in the USA and Western Europe are used
to a very different type of cultural zeitgeist than
the one MMY brings to the TMO.
   
   Thats one part. But what about the littel daily things 
   between the TM people ?
  
  In my opinion, for most TMers 'stress release' is to 
  acting rudely as 'stress' is to being unenlightened.
  Both are EXCUSES for being too lazy to change.  :-)
 
 How about non-TMers being rude *to* TMers?


That's different. Everyone knows that TMers deserve everything they 
get, while the former-TMers are victims of circumstance...







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Quite so, but is it the case that the decisions haven't been 
worthwhile?
  
  Raising the price allows people to take out loans to learn it. That 
  gives it far more legitimacy than if it was taught for $10.
 
 I can`t follow this logik. Pleas explane to me.


You CANNOT get insurance refunds for something that costs $10. You 
cannot take out loans for something that costs $10. You can't get 
school credit for learning something that costs $10.

Etc.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread Rick Archer

on 1/3/06 2:35 AM, shukra69 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Does it? Amma insists that her meditation be taught for free. Course
 participants may be asked for $10-$30
 Participants in the Amma meditation teaching here in Toronto are
 charged about $250CND

That seems extravagant, and out of tune with Amma's intentions. I've emailed
the Toronto Amma Center and the main IAM Meditation teacher in the US to ask
about it.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread Rick Archer

on 1/3/06 7:31 AM, Peter at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 On my TTC MMY said that if he ever became involved in
 politics, that we should know that it wasn't him.

Some people think that the current MMY is a walk-in.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Anandamayi and Ramana Maharishi are perfect examples
  of this fourth
  way.  It's the easiest and most difficult way of
  all.  You just
  gotta be at the right place at the right time.
 
 And in Ramana's writings he makes it very clear that
 the impact his teachings have on a person depend upon
 the condition of the student. He said that some come
 to him as a pile of dry black powder, some as dry
 wood, and some as wet wood. The first ignite instantly
 (e.g., Papaji), the second group take a little more
 time, and the third group smoke alot!

Exactly. It's the factor that makes the idea of
lineage and the ability of that lineage to pass
along true enlightenment questionable. The lineage
and its approach may work for some but not as well
for others, and not at all for still others.

Bottom line is that it's still a crapshoot, no
matter which lineage you're talking about.  In 
my opinion, of course...








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread lupidus108

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  on 1/2/06 5:50 PM, shempmcgurk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
   That's why the NLP was a horrible disaster for the TMO.  They 
should
   NEVER have done it, it was wrong, and it was just another nail 
in
   the coffin of what was once a great movement.
  
  I pretty much agree with you, but Maharishi said he had hoped to 
take 
 over
  the political administration of the world, and apparently 
believed he 
 could
  do it. Hence, the NLP. Another example of the danger of being 
 isolated and
  surrounded by Yes men.
 
 
 Eh, unfathomable are the ways of Karma. Just because MMY justifies 
why 
 he's doing something using a specific reason, doesn't mean that he 
 knows all the ramifications for why he's being compelled to do 
 something. His personality is just along for the ride, just like 
 everyone else's is, really.

Thats downright ridicelous. Maharishi gave the world an opportunity 
to respond to that beautiful knowledge of management. 
It did not, and He closed the whole thing.

Most people here and elsewhere are not even close to understand that 
Maharishi is way, way ahead of the collective consciousness. His 
plans are on a scale of infinity. But nobody can honestly say He is 
not trying. Unfortunatele His knowledge seems, at this time, to fall 
on the hard rocks of ignorance.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

  Why not selling it ?
 
 You're asking the wrong question. The TM organization
 by now has earned more money than God by selling
 its products and services. The question is *not* Why
 not sell it? but Why not give it away, if you *really*
 care about the people of the world and think TM will
 help them?

Two reasons:
1. If somthing is for free, it has no value.
2. If the peopel selling it can sustain their living with it they put
more effort in it. 

Initiation fee of 2500,- is one of MMY`s bad Jokes. 200,- would be OK.
90% for the teacher, 5% for TMO national and 5% for TMO nternatinal.
 
Mr Satva







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  
   If there's especially difficult periods just after meditation, than 
   the instruction has ALWAYS been (in the last 32 years at least) to 
   take a few minutes extra of silence at the end of practice.
  
  
  For this you need to know/realise that you are in sutch a period.
 
 So take, an extra minute or 3 on general principle.
 
  
  And even then, longer resting after meditation/programm can make the
  things wors cause you start transcending again.
  
 
 Do a little stretching and body shifting during those extra rest 
 poeriods  when you don't have clear awareness that you might be 
 unstressing.
 
  For me going for a work/ enjoing a good piece of choclate works mutch
  better and is more reliebel.
 
 
 Chocolate is good, but so is not having too many calories...

This is what we learned during ouer TM course, siddhi cours and TTC.
Why is it that peopel cant put it into praktice ?

Mr Satva





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

 Thats downright ridicelous. Maharishi gave the world an opportunity 
 to respond to that beautiful knowledge of management. 
 It did not, and He closed the whole thing.
 
 Most people here and elsewhere are not even close to understand that 
 Maharishi is way, way ahead of the collective consciousness. His 
 plans are on a scale of infinity. But nobody can honestly say He is 
 not trying. Unfortunatele His knowledge seems, at this time, to fall 
 on the hard rocks of ignorance.

If it is so, then he must be a really bad Farmer.

Mr Satva





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

 Consider these martial arts teachers... Who do you want to learn 
 from, the guy who teaches for free at the cafeteria of the local jr 
 high school in the evenings, or the guy who charges $65/month for 
 group classes at his own studio, and $80/hour for 1 on 1 instruction?
 
 Actually, the above are both the same person: when he started out, 
 Augustine Fong taught Wing Chung at Spring Jr. High in the evenings 
 for free. 35 years later, he's got his own school and some of this 
 students have an international reputation (e.g. Danny Chan, who beat 
 the crap out of me in a friendly way when he was 16 at said Jr High 
 School).


$80 * 3hours = $240

That sounds to be a fair TM fee. 

Mr Satva





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

Seem to me that I couldn´t bring up my points clear enough. Don´t
understand your answers at al. Thanks for trying.
Mr Satva



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
Yes there is a lot of talking about Worl Peace and so on. But do
people REALY talk to each other ? If not, why not ?  
   
   About what? The TMO isn't a religion or philosophy per se. On 
 this 
   newsgroup you have people like Shemp and Judy who are completely 
   opposed to each other on virtually every topic, who both meditate 
 via 
   TM and both believe/hope that it may have some long-term effect 
 for 
   the good of the world. What, other than TM, would Shemp and Judy 
 have 
   to discuss in a non-confrontational way?
  
  Thats fine for FFL. But what about daily TM-center life ?
 
 What about them? Since the formal on-topic discussions at the TM-
 center are always about TM and related stuff, no problem, eh?
Does this meen, most tm peoples think that they can reach
enlightenment without taking care about others and without 
 taking
responsiballity for theire aktion/nonaktion ?
   
   Nevertheless, the TMO's *teaching* on the subject of charity and 
 all 
   other relative behaviors is that you follow your own 
   religion/conscience on such things. That people may not be doing 
 so 
   suggests that they are being *lazy* aoubt their own religious 
   traditions, not that the TMO is discouraging them from following 
 them.
  
  Mayby that has been the teaching at the beginning of the moovment.
  Today there is meditation plus MMY-Ayurveda plus MMY-Yotisch plus
  MMY-Jagya plus MMY-Gandharva Ved plus a lott of other MMY-Veda-
 things.
  I dont want to take MMY responsibel for everry of his followers 
 funny
  idear/interpretation. But he is aktualy pushing people into somthing
  called Vedik culture. Tear down your citty and rebuild it 
 akording
  MMY-Stapatha Ved. Thats quite strong culturel enterference! 
  
 
 
 Sure, but its non-demonimational. Applies to all of India as well.
 
I think it is the other way round. Only this to thinks can bring
enlightenment.
   
   Define taking responsibility for one's own actions in a way 
 that 
   fits all cultures.
  
  Just commen sence.  
 
 Rght. And you're familiar with every culture, including ones that 
 revere lying and deception towards outsiders?
 
   
  Is that any different than the way a corporation functions? 
 
 No.
 
  Should it be?
 
 In my opinion, yes. Unless you believe that organizations
 that profess to teach a pathway to enlightenment should
 be nothing more than big corporations, intent on making
 a profit. 

In my opinion, no. It should not function the way a corporation 
   intent
on making a profit funktions but like a corporation intent on 
   selling
social goods (social work...). 
   
   
   A non-profit organization is every bit as dependent on customers 
   (donors) as a profit-making one. Charities have to advertise 
 their 
   product (good works) in order to keep running. 
  
  Agreed.
  
  Mr Satva
 








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread bbrigante

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 
 
 --- Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  on 1/2/06 5:50 PM, shempmcgurk at
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
   That's why the NLP was a horrible disaster for the
  TMO.  They should
   NEVER have done it, it was wrong, and it was just
  another nail in
   the coffin of what was once a great movement.
  
  I pretty much agree with you, but Maharishi said he
  had hoped to take over
  the political administration of the world, and
  apparently believed he could
  do it. Hence, the NLP. Another example of the danger
  of being isolated and
  surrounded by Yes men.


 
 On my TTC MMY said that if he ever became involved in
 politics, that we should know that it wasn't him.
 
 

***

After Deepak Chopra, who became rich and famous because of his being 
handed all the Ayurveda knowledge, left the TMO in an arrogant huff, 
MMY determined to do whatever it took to keep the power-hungry fools 
(and they're all power-hungry fools) in TM management from jumping 
ship. The Natural Law Party was a necessary evil so that fart-
cannons like John Hagelin and Bevan could pronounce to the world 
their suitability as masters of the earth. It's just a temporary 
phase, until really intelligent people can run things intelligently -
- a competent TMO would be too challenging to a deeply ignorant 
world, just as Jesus and Krishna were too challenging (Kamsa tried 
to kill Krishna right from his birth).






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread uns_tressor

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bbrigante [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  --- Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
   on 1/2/06 5:50 PM, shempmcgurk at
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That's why the NLP was a horrible disaster for the
   TMO.  They should
NEVER have done it, it was wrong, and it was just
   another nail in
the coffin of what was once a great movement. 
   I pretty much agree with you, but Maharishi said he
   had hoped to take over
   the political administration of the world, and
   apparently believed he could
   do it. Hence, the NLP. Another example of the danger
   of being isolated and
   surrounded by Yes men.
  On my TTC MMY said that if he ever became involved in
  politics, that we should know that it wasn't him. 
 
 ***
 
 After Deepak Chopra, who became rich and famous because of his being 
 handed all the Ayurveda knowledge, left the TMO in an arrogant huff, 
 MMY determined to do whatever it took to keep the power-hungry fools 
 (and they're all power-hungry fools) in TM management from jumping 
 ship

You cannot run any organsiation with power hungry
fools. They are bound to ruin it.

 a competent TMO would be too challenging to a deeply ignorant 
 world...

Bullshit. A competent TMO has much to offer any governments'
health department, education department etc. etc. MMY should
try a competent TMO. Your problem, bbrigante, is that you
believe the unresearched sh*t* that you write.
Uns.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread shempmcgurk

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Not only do I feel the NLP was a complete waste of TM but it 
  whittled away what little credibility the TMO had left.
  
  Look, the NLP being a political party, by definition, had to 
take 
  political and policy stands on the whole range of issues that 
affect 
  the societies and countries they ran candidates in: health care, 
  abortion, gun control, capitalism versus socialism, etc. etc.
  
  Once you take positions on all of those things you are, in 
effect, 
  adopting a philosophy, a way of looking at the world and, 
indeed, 
  putting yourself at opposition to those in other parties that 
hold 
  differing views on those matters.
  
  Being a philosophy violates that basic tenet of TM that it is 
  neither a religion or a philosophy.  TM is supposed to be for 
  everybody: capitalists or communists, Democrats or Republicans, 
Left 
  or Right.  Once you take positions on things, you are bound to 
piss 
  off those that are on the other side of the spectrum from you.
  
  So when you announce to the world that TM is not a philosophy 
and 
  then, after holding onto and practising that tenet for 30 years 
of 
  your existence, abandon it and start BEING a philosophy, people 
  notice.  And you lose credibility.
  
  That's why the NLP was a horrible disaster for the TMO.  They 
should 
  NEVER have done it, it was wrong, and it was just another nail 
in 
  the coffin of what was once a great movement.
 
 That is a surprise. It was different germany.
 1) NLP was a quite good advertisment campain.
 2) TM peopel (especily TM teachers) realised that the language they
 were speaking coulnd`t be understood by most of the non-TM-peopel. 
   
 Probabbly because we did not take anny political and policy stands.
 Messeg was TM and no gmo food thats all.


Well, the Germany NLP got it half right...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread shempmcgurk

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 
 
 --- Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  on 1/2/06 5:50 PM, shempmcgurk at
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
   That's why the NLP was a horrible disaster for the
  TMO.  They should
   NEVER have done it, it was wrong, and it was just
  another nail in
   the coffin of what was once a great movement.
  
  I pretty much agree with you, but Maharishi said he
  had hoped to take over
  the political administration of the world, and
  apparently believed he could
  do it. Hence, the NLP. Another example of the danger
  of being isolated and
  surrounded by Yes men.
 
 On my TTC MMY said that if he ever became involved in
 politics, that we should know that it wasn't him.


Boy, do I LOVE that quote...


 
 
 
  
  
  
  
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 Just $16.99/mo. or less. 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread shempmcgurk

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Different cultures define caring in different ways. 
The 
  TMO's
  founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top 
of 
  the 
   list
  for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.
 
 Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. 
Karunamayi 
 is 
  a 
Hindu. She
 too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. 
The 
  list 
goes on.


When you've got the answer to all of life's problems (i.e. 
TM), 
  why 
waste your precious time setting up hospitals and stuff like 
  that?

And I'm not trying to be glib here.  Assuming for the moment 
  that 
   you 
accept the premise that TM is everything it is claimed to 
be, 
  why 
waste precious and limited resources on charity work like 
  schools 
   and 
food banks?

Indeed, I would make the argument that the TMO is wasting 
  precious 
resources with side issues like Vastu, Yagyas, NLP, etc. 
when 
   you've 
got limited time, money and man power and you've got the 
  solution --

TM -- primed and ready to get to the world's people...
   
   
   The NLP was relatively free publicity for TM. It also got 
  manypeople 
   off their duffs and working in the real world. Wasn't a bad 
use 
 of 
   limited resources in the long run, I think. The New Age 
 community, 
   for instance, still reveres John Hagelin for running for 
 President 
  of 
   the USA on the Enlightenment Ticket.
  
  
  Not only do I feel the NLP was a complete waste of TM but it 
  whittled away what little credibility the TMO had left.
  
  Look, the NLP being a political party, by definition, had to 
take 
  political and policy stands on the whole range of issues that 
 affect 
  the societies and countries they ran candidates in: health care, 
  abortion, gun control, capitalism versus socialism, etc. etc.
  
  Once you take positions on all of those things you are, in 
effect, 
  adopting a philosophy, a way of looking at the world and, 
indeed, 
  putting yourself at opposition to those in other parties that 
hold 
  differing views on those matters.
  
  Being a philosophy violates that basic tenet of TM that it is 
  neither a religion or a philosophy.  TM is supposed to be for 
  everybody: capitalists or communists, Democrats or Republicans, 
 Left 
  or Right.  Once you take positions on things, you are bound to 
piss 
  off those that are on the other side of the spectrum from you.
  
  So when you announce to the world that TM is not a philosophy 
and 
  then, after holding onto and practising that tenet for 30 years 
of 
  your existence, abandon it and start BEING a philosophy, people 
  notice.  And you lose credibility.
  
  That's why the NLP was a horrible disaster for the TMO.  They 
 should 
  NEVER have done it, it was wrong, and it was just another nail 
in 
  the coffin of what was once a great movement.
 
 
 The basic philosophy of the NLP, as presented by John Hagelin, 
was: 
 use what works. 
 
 In other words, use the results of scientific research, where 
 possible, to evaluate what policies might be sensible in the first 
 place rather than deciding what makes sense on some philosophical 
 basis like Pure Capitalism vs Pure Communism, or conservative vs 
 liberal, etc., and then attempt to justify your philosophical 
beliefs 
 by cherry-picking what research you look at.
 
 If you think that this core message, no matter how poorly 
 implemented, discredits John and company, well tough shit.


Sorry, Spare Egg, you're wrong.

The NLP had a WIDE litany of policy positions on all sorts of 
things: guns, abortion, health care, taxes, etc.  And these weren't 
positions of do what works; they were actual positions on the 
political spectrum.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread demaris4

In resopnse to the quote below -- are you sure that the TM group myth is the 
overriding 
importance of personal enlightenment??  I don't think so.  I think the more 
important belief or 
myth is that thru the movement, the world will be transformed; that this is 
much more 
important than individual enlightenment, which is influenced by so many 
variables such a 
karma... This transformation of civilization just seems to me to be the guiding 
light and the 
reason for it all - but individuals will have their own needs and entrapments. 

That's where the issue lies, in my opinion. When
 you create a group myth that says that one's 
 personal enlightenment is the most important 
 thing in life, then suddenly *many* other things
 become considered secondary, or not terribly
 important. Some of those secondary other things
 can include treating people with a basic sense of
 civility and respect, taking personal responsibility 
 for one's actions, living up to responsibilities 
 that have been assigned to you, etc.  






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, demaris4 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 In resopnse to the quote below -- are you sure that the TM group 
myth is the overriding 
 importance of personal enlightenment??  I don't think so.  I think 
the more important belief or 
 myth is that thru the movement, the world will be transformed; that 
this is much more 
 important than individual enlightenment, which is influenced by so 
many variables such a 
 karma... This transformation of civilization just seems to me to be 
the guiding light and the 
 reason for it all - but individuals will have their own needs and 
entrapments.

You are absolutely correct.  The overriding belief is
and always has been that TMers will transform the world
through their practice; personal enlightenment is and
always has been secondary.

The person who wrote the post you quote below used to
be a TM teacher, incidentally, and (according to him)
held positions of significant responsibility in the
TMO, as well as having spent a lot of time with MMY.

As he is fond of saying, go figure.

 That's where the issue lies, in my opinion. When
  you create a group myth that says that one's 
  personal enlightenment is the most important 
  thing in life, then suddenly *many* other things
  become considered secondary, or not terribly
  important. Some of those secondary other things
  can include treating people with a basic sense of
  civility and respect, taking personal responsibility 
  for one's actions, living up to responsibilities 
  that have been assigned to you, etc.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread a_non_moose_ff

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, demaris4 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  In resopnse to the quote below -- are you sure that the TM group 
 myth is the overriding 
  importance of personal enlightenment??  I don't think so.  I think 
 the more important belief or 
  myth is that thru the movement, the world will be transformed; that 
 this is much more 
  important than individual enlightenment, which is influenced by so 
 many variables such a 
  karma... This transformation of civilization just seems to me to be 
 the guiding light and the 
  reason for it all - but individuals will have their own needs and 
 entrapments.
 
 You are absolutely correct.  The overriding belief is
 and always has been that TMers will transform the world
 through their practice; personal enlightenment is and
 always has been secondary.




I am not sure I agree. 

Maybe its we have been in different times and in different places.

The intro lecture is 3/4 individual transformation, 1/4 world peace.

But you counter, but look at all the SQ RT of 1% stuff, thats a world
focus

But I counter, yes, but so each individual can live enlightenment.




Age of Enlightenment vs. Heaven on Earth perhaps.

Not an argument, just a different perspective. :)



 
 The person who wrote the post you quote below used to
 be a TM teacher, incidentally, and (according to him)
 held positions of significant responsibility in the
 TMO, 

smirk Jerry Jarvis? 

significant responsibility -- sounds heavy. 








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, demaris4 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  
   In resopnse to the quote below -- are you sure that the TM 
group 
  myth is the overriding 
   importance of personal enlightenment??  I don't think so.  I 
think 
  the more important belief or 
   myth is that thru the movement, the world will be transformed; 
that 
  this is much more 
   important than individual enlightenment, which is influenced by 
so 
  many variables such a 
   karma... This transformation of civilization just seems to me 
to be 
  the guiding light and the 
   reason for it all - but individuals will have their own needs 
and 
  entrapments.
  
  You are absolutely correct.  The overriding belief is
  and always has been that TMers will transform the world
  through their practice; personal enlightenment is and
  always has been secondary.
 
 
 
 
 I am not sure I agree. 
 
 Maybe its we have been in different times and in different places.
 
 The intro lecture is 3/4 individual transformation, 1/4 world peace.
 
 But you counter, but look at all the SQ RT of 1% stuff, thats a 
world
 focus
 
 But I counter, yes, but so each individual can live enlightenment.

Sure, but *how* does this counter what I'm saying?

MMY has said from the very beginning that the purpose
and goal of TM was to spiritually regenerate the world.
The emphasis is on enlightening (all the individuals
in) the world.
 
 Age of Enlightenment vs. Heaven on Earth perhaps.

What's the difference?  As I understand it, Heaven
on Earth is what the Age of Enlightenment is supposed
to look like.

 Not an argument, just a different perspective. :)

  The person who wrote the post you quote below used to
  be a TM teacher, incidentally, and (according to him)
  held positions of significant responsibility in the
  TMO, 
 
 smirk Jerry Jarvis?

Um, no, one of our regular posters.

 significant responsibility -- sounds heavy.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-03 Thread a_non_moose_ff

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
   You are absolutely correct.  The overriding belief is
   and always has been that TMers will transform the world
   through their practice; personal enlightenment is and
   always has been secondary.
  
  
  
  
  I am not sure I agree. 
  
  Maybe its we have been in different times and in different places.
  
  The intro lecture is 3/4 individual transformation, 1/4 world peace.
  
  But you counter, but look at all the SQ RT of 1% stuff, thats a 
 world
  focus
  
  But I counter, yes, but so each individual can live enlightenment.
 
 Sure, but *how* does this counter what I'm saying?

Simply, my impression, from close to 40 years of exposure to various
TMO promotions and campaigns, is a different from yours. I would say
the emphasis has primarity been on the individual. Though I appreciate
the points that it has been world. My impression may be incorrect. 

 
  Not an argument, just a different perspective. :)
 
   The person who wrote the post you quote below used to
   be a TM teacher, incidentally, and (according to him)
   held positions of significant responsibility in the
   TMO, 
  
  smirk Jerry Jarvis?
 
 Um, no, one of our regular posters.

Yes, I know. I was being, well, smirkful. 

Jerry held positions of significant responsibility in the TMO. A few
regional coordinators did also, at times, IMO. Some others (teachers)
were impressed with their supposed importance. And many were not. And
many just did what they could -- which often was a lot.
 
  significant responsibility -- sounds heavy.

The TMO would have collapsed if he suddenly left?









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 on 1/1/06 9:35 AM, mrsatva at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Because it got too weird for people, or what ?
  
  Probebly all the reasons why people are leaving the TMO...
  
  I have been thinking about it for quit some time now and I thing 
  the main reasons are to many scratches in the heart.
  One of the biggest TMO problems: the way people treat eatch 
  other.

Yup. It's a movement full of people who care more
about talking the talk than they do walking the 
walk. In fact, there is no perceived *value* in
walking the walk, whereas there is for talking
the talk. Good talkers get promoted into the
movement hierarchy, whereas those who actually
live quietly according to generally-accepted 
spiritual precepts get ignored or are cast off.

 I wonder how the TMO compares with other spiritual movements 
 in terms of this problem. 

I can't speak for all other spiritual movements,
but I'd say that it's in the same ballpark as 
other spiritual movements whose primary myth is
centered around the importance of one's own 
personal enlightenment. (As opposed to movements
in which the highest ideal is service to others
or working for the enlightenment of all beings.)

That's where the issue lies, in my opinion. When
you create a group myth that says that one's 
personal enlightenment is the most important 
thing in life, then suddenly *many* other things
become considered secondary, or not terribly
important. Some of those secondary other things
can include treating people with a basic sense of
civility and respect, taking personal responsibility 
for one's actions, living up to responsibilities 
that have been assigned to you, etc.  

We've all been around the TM block a few times. 
How many times have you seen some TM teacher/
governor/purusha/MD/whatever completely crap out
on their responsibilities (financial, personal, 
family or otherwise) and just blow town to go to 
the Next Next Big Thing Course, leaving others 
holding the bag?  It's almost *accepted* behavior. 
And IMO the reason for this is that the predominant 
myth in the TMO is the importance of one's personal 
enlightenment. You would not see such behavior in, 
say, Buddhist groups, in which the primary myth 
is service to others.

Add to this the tendency in the TMO to stigmatize
anyone who deviates in any way from the established
dogma, and you've got a real mess on your hands in
terms of social interaction.

 There are plenty of sweet people in the movement, and plenty
 of jerks who hopefully are getting sweeter, but it's been a 
 long haul. If the TMO is worse than average, why is that? 

I don't think the TMO is worse than the average.
It's about average, in almost every way imaginable.

 Maharishi has given plenty of lip service to speak 
 the sweet truth and the world is my family, but
 does he treat the people around him that way 

No way.

 ...and does he inspire his followers to do the same? 

No way.

 If so, is his inspiration explicit or by example?

By example is ALWAYS what wins. Maharishi could talk
and talk and talk forever about how strongly he feels
about humanity as a whole. But then he turns around
and ACTS in a manner that indicates he couldn't care
less about humanity as a whole, and in fact has almost
no sense of loyalty to those who have served him for
years as TM teachers. Given the dichotomy between what
is said and what is done, the lesson being picked
up by most students as this is the way an enlightened
being acts is what is DONE, not what is said.

 Or, on the other hand, are people treated like expendable 
 commodities, to be discarded if they become ill, run out 
 of money, become too independent in their thinking, get 
 eclipsed by someone with skills exceeding theirs, etc?

Well, duh. That, in a nutshell, is the forty-year
history of the TMO.

 Is that any different than the way a corporation functions? 

No.

 Should it be?

In my opinion, yes. Unless you believe that organizations
that profess to teach a pathway to enlightenment should
be nothing more than big corporations, intent on making
a profit. 

 For some reason, I felt like writing this as a series 
 of questions. I think each question could be answered with 
 examples both pro and con, so we would have to look at what 
 the predominant tendency has been. 

The question format seemed right to me. And you're right
in that for every generalization one can find a rare
exception (some rare TMer who actually acts in a humane
manner). But it's the predominant tendency that defines
the movement, and I think there is no question about
what that tendency has been, and continues to be.  The
people who pay for the TM movement are considered to be,
and have *always* been considered by Maharishi and the
TMO administration to be as disposable as Kleenex, and 
with as much inherent worth as a used Kleenex.

 I don't feel like spouting glib answers at the moment. 
 I guess everyone draws their

[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread mrsatva

 For some reason, I felt like writing this as a series of questions.
I think
 each question could be answered with examples both pro and con, so
we would
 have to look at what the predominant tendency has been. 



Because of my limited english skill, answering on this post would take
me houers. Thats why I will put short comments into the answers others
gave to your questions.

Your right. Analysing this topik would need at leest 600 sientifical
reserches. And even then, would that be helpfull to annyone ?  

Do you think the majority of the day to day heartless behavior can
be explaned by stress releese ? (Not talking about MMY, Beven...,
talking about normal meditators, siddhas, teachers)
I observed that for many people the 30 minutes after programm are
especially diffikult.
 
Mr Satva
 





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread Peter



--- mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  For some reason, I felt like writing this as a
 series of questions.
 I think
  each question could be answered with examples both
 pro and con, so
 we would
  have to look at what the predominant tendency has
 been. 
 
 
 
 Because of my limited english skill, answering on
 this post would take
 me houers. Thats why I will put short comments into
 the answers others
 gave to your questions.
 
 Your right. Analysing this topik would need at leest
 600 sientifical
 reserches. And even then, would that be helpfull to
 annyone ?  
 
 Do you think the majority of the day to day
 heartless behavior can
 be explaned by stress releese ? (Not talking about
 MMY, Beven...,
 talking about normal meditators, siddhas,
 teachers)
 I observed that for many people the 30 minutes
 after programm are
 especially diffikult.
  
 Mr Satva

No, I don't think the TMO overall rude behavior can be
attributed to stress release. Much of the TMO's
culture has been set by MMY's behavior and
directives. Most of us who have been raised in
democracies and in the USA and Western Europe are used
to a very different type of cultural zeitgeist than
the one MMY brings to the TMO.




  
 
 
 
 
 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread mrsatva

 Yup. It's a movement full of people who care more
 about talking the talk than they do walking the 
 walk. In fact, there is no perceived *value* in
 walking the walk, whereas there is for talking
 the talk. Good talkers get promoted into the
 movement hierarchy, whereas those who actually
 live quietly according to generally-accepted 
 spiritual precepts get ignored or are cast off.

Yes there is a lot of talking about Worl Peace and so on. But do
people REALY talk to each other ? If not, why not ?  
 
  I wonder how the TMO compares with other spiritual movements 
  in terms of this problem. 

 (...)  *many* other things
 become considered secondary, or not terribly
 important. Some of those secondary other things
 can include treating people with a basic sense of
 civility and respect, taking personal responsibility 
 for one's actions, living up to responsibilities 
 that have been assigned to you, etc.  
 (...) the reason for this is that the predominant 
 myth in the TMO is the importance of one's personal 
 enlightenment (...)
terms of social interaction.
 
Does this meen, most tm peoples think that they can reach
enlightenment without taking care about others and without taking
responsiballity for theire aktion/nonaktion ?
I think it is the other way round. Only this to thinks can bring
enlightenment.
  

  Maharishi has given plenty of lip service to speak 
  the sweet truth and the world is my family, but
  does he treat the people around him that way 
 
 No way.
 
  ...and does he inspire his followers to do the same? 
 
 No way.
 
  If so, is his inspiration explicit or by example?
 
 By example is ALWAYS what wins. Maharishi could talk
 and talk and talk forever about how strongly he feels
 about humanity as a whole. But then he turns around
 and ACTS in a manner that indicates he couldn't care
 less about humanity as a whole, and in fact has almost
 no sense of loyalty to those who have served him for
 years as TM teachers. Given the dichotomy between what
 is said and what is done, the lesson being picked
 up by most students as this is the way an enlightened
 being acts is what is DONE, not what is said.

Is it possible to teach enlightenment by example ?
 

  Is that any different than the way a corporation functions? 
 
 No.
 
  Should it be?
 
 In my opinion, yes. Unless you believe that organizations
 that profess to teach a pathway to enlightenment should
 be nothing more than big corporations, intent on making
 a profit. 

In my opinion, no. It should not function the way a corporation intent
on making a profit funktions but like a corporation intent on selling
social goods (social work...). 
   
Mr Satva





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
  I wonder how the TMO compares with other spiritual movements 
  in terms of this problem. 
 
 I can't speak for all other spiritual movements,
 but I'd say that it's in the same ballpark as 
 other spiritual movements whose primary myth is
 centered around the importance of one's own 
 personal enlightenment. (As opposed to movements
 in which the highest ideal is service to others
 or working for the enlightenment of all beings.)

In fact, of course, service to others and working
for the enlightenment of all beings is exactly what
the highest ideal is in TM.   

It's just that in MMY's teaching, the means is to
become enlightened oneself, on the theory that the
effectiveness of one's service to others is
dependent on the degree of one's own enlightenment.
Plus which, the *process* of becoming enlightened
is said itself to be service to others and to
contribute to their eventual enlightenment.

Whether that approach *works* is another question,
as is whether it has immediate ramifications that
appear to conflict with the long-term goal.

But it's important, it seems to me, to frame the
questions accurately to start with.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  (...) the reason for this is that the predominant 
  myth in the TMO is the importance of one's personal 
  enlightenment (...) terms of social interaction.
  
 Does this meen, most tm peoples think that they can reach
 enlightenment without taking care about others and without 
 taking responsiballity for theire aktion/nonaktion ?

I think it is safe to say that one could spend an
entire lifetime in the TM movement and never hear
the concept of one's everyday actions being important
to the realization of enlightenment. The predominant
myth has always been Just meditate, and action will
take care of itself. (paraphrasing, not quoting)

 I think it is the other way round. Only this to thinks can 
 bring enlightenment.

I'm not sure about only, but I would agree that 
monitoring one's actions through mindfulness and
putting some emphasis on improving them in terms
of their effect on others seems pretty darned
importance to the realization of enlightenment.

snip
  By example is ALWAYS what wins. Maharishi could talk
  and talk and talk forever about how strongly he feels
  about humanity as a whole. But then he turns around
  and ACTS in a manner that indicates he couldn't care
  less about humanity as a whole, and in fact has almost
  no sense of loyalty to those who have served him for
  years as TM teachers. Given the dichotomy between what
  is said and what is done, the lesson being picked
  up by most students as this is the way an enlightened
  being acts is what is DONE, not what is said.
 
 Is it possible to teach enlightenment by example ?

I think that the *only* way one can really teach
enlightenment is by example. That is, by just
living enlightenment and allowing the students to
feel what that feels like. Talking about enlight-
enment seems to accomplish nothing, but just being
around it as it does its thing seems to have some
value.  In my opinion, of course.

   Is that any different than the way a corporation functions? 
  
  No.
  
   Should it be?
  
  In my opinion, yes. Unless you believe that organizations
  that profess to teach a pathway to enlightenment should
  be nothing more than big corporations, intent on making
  a profit. 
 
 In my opinion, no. It should not function the way a corporation 
 intent on making a profit funktions but like a corporation intent 
 on selling social goods (social work...). 

Ah, but there is still that word selling in there.  :-)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  For some reason, I felt like writing this as a series of 
questions.
 I think
  each question could be answered with examples both pro and con, so
 we would
  have to look at what the predominant tendency has been. 
 
 
 
 Because of my limited english skill, answering on this post would 
take
 me houers. Thats why I will put short comments into the answers 
others
 gave to your questions.
 
 Your right. Analysing this topik would need at leest 600 sientifical
 reserches. And even then, would that be helpfull to annyone ?  
 
 Do you think the majority of the day to day heartless behavior can
 be explaned by stress releese ? (Not talking about MMY, Beven...,
 talking about normal meditators, siddhas, teachers)
 I observed that for many people the 30 minutes after programm are
 especially diffikult.
  
 Mr Satva


If there's especially difficult periods just after meditation, than 
the instruction has ALWAYS been (in the last 32 years at least) to 
take a few minutes extra of silence at the end of practice.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 
 
 --- mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   For some reason, I felt like writing this as a
  series of questions.
  I think
   each question could be answered with examples both
  pro and con, so
  we would
   have to look at what the predominant tendency has
  been. 
  
  
  
  Because of my limited english skill, answering on
  this post would take
  me houers. Thats why I will put short comments into
  the answers others
  gave to your questions.
  
  Your right. Analysing this topik would need at leest
  600 sientifical
  reserches. And even then, would that be helpfull to
  annyone ?  
  
  Do you think the majority of the day to day
  heartless behavior can
  be explaned by stress releese ? (Not talking about
  MMY, Beven...,
  talking about normal meditators, siddhas,
  teachers)
  I observed that for many people the 30 minutes
  after programm are
  especially diffikult.
   
  Mr Satva
 
 No, I don't think the TMO overall rude behavior can be
 attributed to stress release. Much of the TMO's
 culture has been set by MMY's behavior and
 directives. Most of us who have been raised in
 democracies and in the USA and Western Europe are used
 to a very different type of cultural zeitgeist than
 the one MMY brings to the TMO.
 
 
 
 

It's funny. I've been an idea man for the TMO for 30+ years. More 
than 95% of my ideas are shot down from the start. A few have 
eventually been implemented. I *never* experienced rudeness from any 
TMO person when they were shooting down my ideas, whether it be due 
to their own intution about the idea, or because it went against 
MMY's specific instructions about something.

There IS definitely a rigidity of culture concerning certain ideas 
involving purity of the teaching, and perhaps that is where 
rudeness might arise, but I accept the necessity, or at least 
inevitibility within the TMO, the purity of the teaching thing, and 
don't bother going there with any of my ideas so perhaps I miss the 
rudeness thing altogether.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Yup. It's a movement full of people who care more
  about talking the talk than they do walking the 
  walk. In fact, there is no perceived *value* in
  walking the walk, whereas there is for talking
  the talk. Good talkers get promoted into the
  movement hierarchy, whereas those who actually
  live quietly according to generally-accepted 
  spiritual precepts get ignored or are cast off.
 
 Yes there is a lot of talking about Worl Peace and so on. But do
 people REALY talk to each other ? If not, why not ?  

About what? The TMO isn't a religion or philosophy per se. On this 
newsgroup you have people like Shemp and Judy who are completely 
opposed to each other on virtually every topic, who both meditate via 
TM and both believe/hope that it may have some long-term effect for 
the good of the world. What, other than TM, would Shemp and Judy have 
to discuss in a non-confrontational way?

  
   I wonder how the TMO compares with other spiritual movements 
   in terms of this problem. 
 
  (...)  *many* other things
  become considered secondary, or not terribly
  important. Some of those secondary other things
  can include treating people with a basic sense of
  civility and respect, taking personal responsibility 
  for one's actions, living up to responsibilities 
  that have been assigned to you, etc.  
  (...) the reason for this is that the predominant 
  myth in the TMO is the importance of one's personal 
  enlightenment (...)
 terms of social interaction.
  
 Does this meen, most tm peoples think that they can reach
 enlightenment without taking care about others and without taking
 responsiballity for theire aktion/nonaktion ?

Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's 
founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the list 
for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing. 
Nevertheless, the TMO's *teaching* on the subject of charity and all 
other relative behaviors is that you follow your own 
religion/conscience on such things. That people may not be doing so 
suggests that they are being *lazy* aoubt their own religious 
traditions, not that the TMO is discouraging them from following them.

 I think it is the other way round. Only this to thinks can bring
 enlightenment.

Define taking responsibility for one's own actions in a way that 
fits all cultures.

   
 
   Maharishi has given plenty of lip service to speak 
   the sweet truth and the world is my family, but
   does he treat the people around him that way 
  
  No way.
  
   ...and does he inspire his followers to do the same? 
  
  No way.
  
   If so, is his inspiration explicit or by example?
  
  By example is ALWAYS what wins. Maharishi could talk
  and talk and talk forever about how strongly he feels
  about humanity as a whole. But then he turns around
  and ACTS in a manner that indicates he couldn't care
  less about humanity as a whole, and in fact has almost
  no sense of loyalty to those who have served him for
  years as TM teachers. Given the dichotomy between what
  is said and what is done, the lesson being picked
  up by most students as this is the way an enlightened
  being acts is what is DONE, not what is said.
 
 Is it possible to teach enlightenment by example ?
  
 
   Is that any different than the way a corporation functions? 
  
  No.
  
   Should it be?
  
  In my opinion, yes. Unless you believe that organizations
  that profess to teach a pathway to enlightenment should
  be nothing more than big corporations, intent on making
  a profit. 
 
 In my opinion, no. It should not function the way a corporation 
intent
 on making a profit funktions but like a corporation intent on 
selling
 social goods (social work...). 


A non-profit organization is every bit as dependent on customers 
(donors) as a profit-making one. Charities have to advertise their 
product (good works) in order to keep running. In extreme cases, 
really silly things are done in order to impress people. For example, 
one charity involved in distributing food in Somalia had to compete 
with all the other charities in the same area with the same goal. 
Since there was far, FAR more food available in that specific area 
(the capital was the only area accessable for ANY of the charities so 
they were concentrated there rather in the places were food was 
actually needed), this particular charity came up with the idea of 
giving away a free T-shirt with every meal. If they didn't give away 
enough meals, the folks back home would stop donating money to that 
charity because obviously it wasn't being effective.

In other words, no matter what the organization's goal is, you will 
still see the same dynamics in the people in the organization in 
order for their organization to survive.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrsatva [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
   (...) the reason for this is that the predominant 
   myth in the TMO is the importance of one's personal 
   enlightenment (...) terms of social interaction.
   
  Does this meen, most tm peoples think that they can reach
  enlightenment without taking care about others and without 
  taking responsiballity for theire aktion/nonaktion ?
 
 I think it is safe to say that one could spend an
 entire lifetime in the TM movement and never hear
 the concept of one's everyday actions being important
 to the realization of enlightenment. The predominant
 myth has always been Just meditate, and action will
 take care of itself. (paraphrasing, not quoting)

Just meditate and perform action in accordance with one's own culture 
and religion's moral and ethical values, and enlightenment will 
happen (paraphrasing, not quoting).

Master, other than meditating, what can we do to attain 
enlightenment as fast as possible?
Eat when you're hungry; sleep when you're sleepy.

(quoting, not paraphrasing)

 
  I think it is the other way round. Only this to thinks can 
  bring enlightenment.
 
 I'm not sure about only, but I would agree that 
 monitoring one's actions through mindfulness and
 putting some emphasis on improving them in terms
 of their effect on others seems pretty darned
 importance to the realization of enlightenment.
 

Following the religion learned at your mother's knee... 
Formal mindfulness techniques not required, save perhaps in 
extreme/pathological cases that don't apply to the vast majority of 
TMers, including many/most of those imprisoned for murder and other 
violent crimes.

 snip
   By example is ALWAYS what wins. Maharishi could talk
   and talk and talk forever about how strongly he feels
   about humanity as a whole. But then he turns around
   and ACTS in a manner that indicates he couldn't care
   less about humanity as a whole, and in fact has almost
   no sense of loyalty to those who have served him for
   years as TM teachers. Given the dichotomy between what
   is said and what is done, the lesson being picked
   up by most students as this is the way an enlightened
   being acts is what is DONE, not what is said.
  
  Is it possible to teach enlightenment by example ?
 
 I think that the *only* way one can really teach
 enlightenment is by example. That is, by just
 living enlightenment and allowing the students to
 feel what that feels like. Talking about enlight-
 enment seems to accomplish nothing, but just being
 around it as it does its thing seems to have some
 value.  In my opinion, of course.

Perhaps, but for the vast majority of people, the opportunity to be 
around people who are genuinely enlightened (whatever that means) 
seems quite limited. Trying to find people who are somewhat 
enlightened and being around them simply because they are somewhat 
enlightened smacks to me of the mood making thing that so many find 
unappealing in the folks at MUM and so on.


 
Is that any different than the way a corporation functions? 
   
   No.
   
Should it be?
   
   In my opinion, yes. Unless you believe that organizations
   that profess to teach a pathway to enlightenment should
   be nothing more than big corporations, intent on making
   a profit. 
  
  In my opinion, no. It should not function the way a corporation 
  intent on making a profit funktions but like a corporation intent 
  on selling social goods (social work...). 
 
 Ah, but there is still that word selling in there.  :-)


Substitute organizational goal and you still have the same issues.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  on 1/1/06 9:35 AM, mrsatva at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   Because it got too weird for people, or what ?
   
   Probebly all the reasons why people are leaving the TMO...
   
   I have been thinking about it for quit some time now and I thing 
   the main reasons are to many scratches in the heart.
   One of the biggest TMO problems: the way people treat eatch 
   other.
 
 Yup. It's a movement full of people who care more
 about talking the talk than they do walking the 
 walk. In fact, there is no perceived *value* in
 walking the walk, whereas there is for talking
 the talk. Good talkers get promoted into the
 movement hierarchy, whereas those who actually
 live quietly according to generally-accepted 
 spiritual precepts get ignored or are cast off.
 
  I wonder how the TMO compares with other spiritual movements 
  in terms of this problem. 


 By example is ALWAYS what wins. Maharishi could talk
 and talk and talk forever ...--- and in fact has almost
 no sense of loyalty to those who have served him for
 years as TM teachers. -

The loyalty stuff has always bothered me. It's nagged at me for a long
time. When I saw how Maharishi treated those closest to him, (Charlie,
Jerry, etc...) I knew something was 'rotten in Denmark'. Its a big
cognitive disonance for a 'spiritual movement'.


JohnY






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread Peter



--- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 
 Perhaps, but for the vast majority of people, the
 opportunity to be 
 around people who are genuinely enlightened
 (whatever that means) 
 seems quite limited. Trying to find people who are
 somewhat 
 enlightened and being around them simply because
 they are somewhat 
 enlightened smacks to me of the mood making thing
 that so many find 
 unappealing in the folks at MUM and so on.

All you can do is have a sincere intent for
Realization. Find a Master that intuitivley appeals to
you. Follow his/her teaching to the letter and hang-on
until you're enlightened or leave after a good number
of years because the results aren't there and/or the
teacher is so corrupt on the surface level! 



 
 
  
 Is that any different than the way a
 corporation functions? 

No.

 Should it be?

In my opinion, yes. Unless you believe that
 organizations
that profess to teach a pathway to
 enlightenment should
be nothing more than big corporations, intent
 on making
a profit. 
   
   In my opinion, no. It should not function the
 way a corporation 
   intent on making a profit funktions but like a
 corporation intent 
   on selling social goods (social work...). 
  
  Ah, but there is still that word selling in
 there.  :-)
 
 
 Substitute organizational goal and you still have
 the same issues.
 
 
 
 
 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   on 1/1/06 9:35 AM, mrsatva at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
Because it got too weird for people, or what ?

Probebly all the reasons why people are leaving the TMO...

I have been thinking about it for quit some time now and I 
thing 
the main reasons are to many scratches in the heart.
One of the biggest TMO problems: the way people treat eatch 
other.
  
  Yup. It's a movement full of people who care more
  about talking the talk than they do walking the 
  walk. In fact, there is no perceived *value* in
  walking the walk, whereas there is for talking
  the talk. Good talkers get promoted into the
  movement hierarchy, whereas those who actually
  live quietly according to generally-accepted 
  spiritual precepts get ignored or are cast off.
  
   I wonder how the TMO compares with other spiritual movements 
   in terms of this problem. 
 
 
  By example is ALWAYS what wins. Maharishi could talk
  and talk and talk forever ...--- and in fact has almost
  no sense of loyalty to those who have served him for
  years as TM teachers. -
 
 The loyalty stuff has always bothered me. It's nagged at me for a 
long
 time. When I saw how Maharishi treated those closest to him, 
(Charlie,
 Jerry, etc...) I knew something was 'rotten in Denmark'. Its a big
 cognitive disonance for a 'spiritual movement'.

What's a bit odd about the current discussion of the
TMO's perceived lack of spirituality is how judgmental
it is.  Aren't being spiritual and being judgmental
mutually contradictory?






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

on 1/2/06 7:02 AM, mrsatva at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Do you think the majority of the day to day heartless behavior can
 be explaned by stress releese ? (Not talking about MMY, Beven...,
 talking about normal meditators, siddhas, teachers)

MMY and Bevan set the example. I don't have any recent direct experience
with MMY, but Bevan is notorious for behaving as a ruthless thug around MUM.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)



On Jan 2, 2006, at 11:08 AM, authfriend wrote:What's a bit odd about the current discussion of the TMO's perceived lack of spirituality is how judgmental it is.  Aren't being spiritual and being judgmental mutually contradictory? Maybe they're just speaking the sweet truth. The question then becomes "why does the sweet truth seem so bitter to you?"





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's
 founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the list
 for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.

Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a Hindu. She
too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The list goes on.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  I think it is safe to say that one could spend an
  entire lifetime in the TM movement and never hear
  the concept of one's everyday actions being important
  to the realization of enlightenment. The predominant
  myth has always been Just meditate, and action will
  take care of itself. (paraphrasing, not quoting)
 
 Just meditate and perform action in accordance with one's own 
 culture and religion's moral and ethical values, and 
 enlightenment will happen (paraphrasing, not quoting).
 
 Master, other than meditating, what can we do to attain 
 enlightenment as fast as possible?
 Eat when you're hungry; sleep when you're sleepy.
 
 (quoting, not paraphrasing)

Uh...I know that's the party line, but I think the
reason this whole topic has arisen is that a number
of people suspect that the party line is a bunch of
hooey, and that things don't quite work like that.

And the *reason* they suspect this is because they
have watched the people in the TM movement follow
the above party line for 30-40 years without any
discernible change in their shitty and uncaring
behavior.  :-)







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)



On Jan 2, 2006, at 11:23 AM, Rick Archer wrote:on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Different cultures define "caring" in different ways. The TMO's founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the list for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.  Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a Hindu. She too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The list goes on. Even Swami Rama, who was involved in severe sexual manipulation of his female students, created hospitals, ashrams and methods to take his students to full enlightenment--well beyond mere mantra meditation.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread markmeredith2002

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's
  founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the list
  for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.
 
 Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a
Hindu. She
 too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The list
goes on.

But before Amma the best known humanitarian in India was Mother
Theresa, a christian.  There are exceptions, but I think the
reincarnation - karma - caste - you deserve your suffering type of
thinking is rather deeply ingrained there.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

On Jan 2, 2006, at 11:24 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it is safe to say that one could spend an entire lifetime in the TM movement and never hear the concept of one's everyday actions being important to the realization of enlightenment. The predominant myth has always been "Just meditate, and action will take care of itself." (paraphrasing, not quoting) Just meditate and perform action in accordance with one's own culture and religion's moral and ethical values, and enlightenment will happen (paraphrasing, not quoting). "Master, other than meditating, what can we do to attain enlightenment as fast as possible?" "Eat when you're hungry; sleep when you're sleepy." (quoting, not paraphrasing) Uh...I know that's the party line, but I think the reason this whole topic has arisen is that a number of people suspect that the party line is a bunch of hooey, and that things don't quite work like that. And the *reason* they suspect this is because they have watched the people in the TM movement follow the above party line for 30-40 years without any discernible change in their shitty and uncaring behavior. :-) Having spent log periods of time around other yogic traditions, one thing you definitely notice over time in authentic enlightenment traditions is that people tangibly evolve, even at the level of the personality. It's really a heartening thing to witness. If you notice people each have their own unique presence and manifestation all their own; in people deeply purifying that presence changes. I've seen some of the roughest, harshest people become soft and flexible.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

on 1/2/06 10:43 AM, markmeredith2002 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
 on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's
 founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the list
 for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.
 
 Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a
 Hindu. She
 too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The list
 goes on.
 
 But before Amma the best known humanitarian in India was Mother
 Theresa, a christian.  There are exceptions, but I think the
 reincarnation - karma - caste - you deserve your suffering type of
 thinking is rather deeply ingrained there.

Could be, but as Amma puts it, it may be your karma to suffer but it's my
karma to help you. If karma is understood properly, one acts
compassionately, if for no other reason than you realize that otherwise,
it'll be you in the gutter next time around.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread Sal Sunshine

And not only that, but those same people often becoming sick based on the TMO's health ideas, such as they are, and when they do getting tossed out on their rears, sometimes after decades of service.

Sal


On Jan 2, 2006, at 10:24 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:

 And the *reason* they suspect this is because they
 have watched the people in the TM movement follow
 the above party line for 30-40 years without any
 discernible change in their shitty and uncaring
 behavior.  :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's
  founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the list
  for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.
 
 Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a 
Hindu. She
 too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The list 
goes on.


When you've got the answer to all of life's problems (i.e. TM), why 
waste your precious time setting up hospitals and stuff like that?

And I'm not trying to be glib here.  Assuming for the moment that you 
accept the premise that TM is everything it is claimed to be, why 
waste precious and limited resources on charity work like schools and 
food banks?

Indeed, I would make the argument that the TMO is wasting precious 
resources with side issues like Vastu, Yagyas, NLP, etc. when you've 
got limited time, money and man power and you've got the solution -- 
TM -- primed and ready to get to the world's people...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 on 1/2/06 10:43 AM, markmeredith2002 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
  
  on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's
  founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the 
list
  for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.
  
  Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a
  Hindu. She
  too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The 
list
  goes on.
  
  But before Amma the best known humanitarian in India was Mother
  Theresa, a christian.  There are exceptions, but I think the
  reincarnation - karma - caste - you deserve your suffering type 
of
  thinking is rather deeply ingrained there.
 
 Could be, but as Amma puts it, it may be your karma to suffer but 
it's my
 karma to help you. If karma is understood properly, one acts
 compassionately,




...which is exactly what the Dalai Llama says...

But what is supposed to set TM apart is the fact that this wise man 
pointed out that compassion, love, intelligence -- whatever quality 
of heart and mind one may be talking about -- is dependent upon 
one's state of consciousness.

What better karma than to unfold the full potential of the basis of 
one's compassion...cause without it, compassion is worthless.  Road 
to hell and all that...





 if for no other reason than you realize that otherwise,
 it'll be you in the gutter next time around.


...in other words, a selfish motivation...I'm going to church to 
cover my ass so that if there IS a heaven, I've got a better chance 
of getting there.

Better to pay true tribute to your selfishness and fulfill your 
desires instead of trying to manipulate the laws of karma for your 
selfish desires...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
on 1/1/06 9:35 AM, mrsatva at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Because it got too weird for people, or what ?
 
 Probebly all the reasons why people are leaving the TMO...
 
 I have been thinking about it for quit some time now and I 
 thing 
 the main reasons are to many scratches in the heart.
 One of the biggest TMO problems: the way people treat eatch 
 other.
   
   Yup. It's a movement full of people who care more
   about talking the talk than they do walking the 
   walk. In fact, there is no perceived *value* in
   walking the walk, whereas there is for talking
   the talk. Good talkers get promoted into the
   movement hierarchy, whereas those who actually
   live quietly according to generally-accepted 
   spiritual precepts get ignored or are cast off.
   
I wonder how the TMO compares with other spiritual movements 
in terms of this problem. 
  
  
   By example is ALWAYS what wins. Maharishi could talk
   and talk and talk forever ...--- and in fact has almost
   no sense of loyalty to those who have served him for
   years as TM teachers. -
  
  The loyalty stuff has always bothered me. It's nagged at me for a 
 long
  time. When I saw how Maharishi treated those closest to him, 
 (Charlie,
  Jerry, etc...) I knew something was 'rotten in Denmark'. Its a big
  cognitive disonance for a 'spiritual movement'.
 
 What's a bit odd about the current discussion of the
 TMO's perceived lack of spirituality is how judgmental
 it is.  Aren't being spiritual and being judgmental
 mutually contradictory?


There is a big difference between 'judgemental' and the ability to
discriminate. I've always thought that it is an important ethical and
spiritual principle not to use someone's ignorance against them. (You
can see a lot of that in the current TMO.) A corrallary of love thy
neighbor as thyself, I guess. The new age axiom about being
non-judgemental kill's the basic ability of the mind to make
evolutionary decisions. That's what it's there for...

JohnY







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's
  founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the list
  for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.
 
 Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a
Hindu. She
 too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The list
goes on.

Gandhi was influenced by the American Trancedentalists, Thoreau, and
Emerson, etc..., And Christianity The Bhagavad Gita made a loop to
the West and back ;-) 

JohnY







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

on 1/2/06 12:51 PM, shempmcgurk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
 on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's
 founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the list
 for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.
 
 Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a
 Hindu. She
 too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The list
 goes on.
 
 
 When you've got the answer to all of life's problems (i.e. TM), why
 waste your precious time setting up hospitals and stuff like that?

So somebody's house has just been washed away by the tsunami, half their
family is dead, they're hungry, and their village is on the verge of a
cholera outbreak, we, in our compassion, should come to them and say Here,
let me teach you how to meditate. Probably you'll say that someone should
tend to their physical needs, but it needn't be the TM teachers, because
they alone can teach TM. They alone can water the root; others can tend to
the leaves. In keeping with that philosophy, the TMO in India, which brings
more money into the country than any other non-profit there, didn't lift a
finger to help tsunami victims, while Amma plunged in from day one and has
now built thousands of homes, adopted orphans, served countless meals,
bought new boats for fisherman, etc. Many local villagers were traumatized
and unmotivated after the tsunami, but when they saw all Amma's western
devotees rebuilding their homes, they began to pitch in. Now it's a
collective effort involving thousands, and is contributing more than any
other to the reconstruction. I would argue that the spiritual contribution
is even more significant than the physical one. The demonstration of
spirituality in action has inspired the people and given them hope.

I hope Maharishi's nephews are enjoying their mansions.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's
   founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the list
   for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.
  
  Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a
 Hindu. She
  too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The list
 goes on.
 
 Gandhi was influenced by the American Trancedentalists, Thoreau, and
 Emerson, etc..., And Christianity The Bhagavad Gita made a loop to
 the West and back ;-) 
 
 JohnY


make that Transcendentalists ;-) 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread markmeredith2002

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 
 When you've got the answer to all of life's problems (i.e. TM), why 
 waste your precious time setting up hospitals and stuff like that?

Better to spend yet another year of your precious time trying to raise
billions from gov'ts for a variety of psychotic schemes like tearing
down their cities?  In fact the TMO itself spends very little time and
energy trying to teach TM and hasn't for over 20 yrs now.

 And I'm not trying to be glib here.  Assuming for the moment that you 
 accept the premise that TM is everything it is claimed to be, why 
 waste precious and limited resources on charity work like schools and 
 food banks?

Who in the world accepts what the TMO says at this point in time?  If
you do then you should come and work at MUM, the home of the solution
to life's problems - and see how dysfunctional the place is!!

 Indeed, I would make the argument that the TMO is wasting precious 
 resources with side issues like Vastu, Yagyas, NLP, etc. when you've 
 got limited time, money and man power and you've got the solution -- 
 TM -- primed and ready to get to the world's people...

I think teaching TM is a good thing, but when I think about the TMO
I'm reminded of this quote from Jung: Hysterical self-deceivers...
pretend to be seekers after God in order not to have to face the truth
that they are ordinary egoists. 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 on 1/2/06 8:43 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  It's just that in MMY's teaching, the means is to
  become enlightened oneself, on the theory that the
  effectiveness of one's service to others is
  dependent on the degree of one's own enlightenment.
  Plus which, the *process* of becoming enlightened
  is said itself to be service to others and to
  contribute to their eventual enlightenment.
 
 But only by teaching them meditation. Not by helping them in other 
 ways. Or so it would seem in the TMO.

Not directly via handouts, but by theoretically reducing
crime, illness, war, etc., increasing prosperity generally,
and so on--all the purported consequences of the Maharishi
Effect.



 One might argue that sidhaland factories and
 farms attempted to improve the physical well-being of their 
employees. I
 would like to hear examples of this ever actually happening in any 
lasting
 way.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 on 1/2/06 12:51 PM, shempmcgurk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
  
  on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's
  founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the 
list
  for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.
  
  Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a
  Hindu. She
  too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The 
list
  goes on.
  
  
  When you've got the answer to all of life's problems (i.e. TM), 
why
  waste your precious time setting up hospitals and stuff like 
that?
 
 So somebody's house has just been washed away by the tsunami, half 
their
 family is dead, they're hungry, and their village is on the verge 
of a
 cholera outbreak, we, in our compassion, should come to them and 
say Here,
 let me teach you how to meditate.





No, people like you who follow spiritual leaders like Amma who are 
into charity work should go and help the tsunami victims.

Those that claim to have a technique to easy and effectively unfold 
full consciousness shouldn't waste their time with such activities.

As the Gerard Depardieu character says to the Andy McDowell 
character -- who is so intent upon helping the poor -- in Green 
Card:  If it amuses you, then do it.






 Probably you'll say that someone should
 tend to their physical needs,



Yes.


 but it needn't be the TM teachers, because
 they alone can teach TM.



Well, they're not doing much of it these days, are they?



 They alone can water the root; others can tend to
 the leaves. In keeping with that philosophy, the TMO in India, 
which brings
 more money into the country than any other non-profit there, 
didn't lift a
 finger to help tsunami victims, while Amma plunged in from day one 
and has
 now built thousands of homes, adopted orphans, served countless 
meals,
 bought new boats for fisherman, etc.





...if that is what she and you want to do, then more power to you: 
enjoy your chosen activity in the relative field.

But you'll do it more effectively and efficiently if you unfold more 
of your pure consciousness.  So while you and Amma and tending to 
the sick and needy on the streets of Sri Lanka, take 20 minutes 
twice a day to do TM.






 Many local villagers were traumatized
 and unmotivated after the tsunami, but when they saw all Amma's 
western
 devotees rebuilding their homes, they began to pitch in. Now it's a
 collective effort involving thousands, and is contributing more 
than any
 other to the reconstruction.





...and if it makes her and you happy, then I'm happy for you.

But those that claim to have this program to easily and effectively 
contact pure consciousness should devote all their energies to that, 
not amusing themselves with racking up brownie points to get into 
heaven or avoid some sort of karmic retribution for not doing 
anything to help (as you indicated in a previous post).




 I would argue that the spiritual contribution
 is even more significant than the physical one.




...yeah, that's what I'm trying to get across to you: those that can 
contribute maximally on the spiritual side -- TM teachers, etc. -- 
have a much more significant work to do than amusing themselves with 
dealing with mere physical things such as tsunami relief.





 The demonstration of
 spirituality in action has inspired the people and given them hope.



I'm glad you're amused...




 
 I hope Maharishi's nephews are enjoying their mansions.


As regards the nepehews, well, now you're on to a different topic 
and if you want me to agree with you on how foolish it is for the 
leader of an organisation that has international -- nay, universal --
 aspirations for his teachings to appoint blood relatives to 
positions of administrative and financial importance, well, you're 
preaching to the converted.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  
   I think it is safe to say that one could spend an
   entire lifetime in the TM movement and never hear
   the concept of one's everyday actions being important
   to the realization of enlightenment. The predominant
   myth has always been Just meditate, and action will
   take care of itself. (paraphrasing, not quoting)
  
  Just meditate and perform action in accordance with one's own 
  culture and religion's moral and ethical values, and 
  enlightenment will happen (paraphrasing, not quoting).
  
  Master, other than meditating, what can we do to attain 
  enlightenment as fast as possible?
  Eat when you're hungry; sleep when you're sleepy.
  
  (quoting, not paraphrasing)
 
 Uh...I know that's the party line

Actually I believe Lawson is quoting the Buddhist
party line.




, but I think the
 reason this whole topic has arisen is that a number
 of people suspect that the party line is a bunch of
 hooey, and that things don't quite work like that.
 
 And the *reason* they suspect this is because they
 have watched the people in the TM movement follow
 the above party line for 30-40 years without any
 discernible change in their shitty and uncaring
 behavior.  :-)







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jan 2, 2006, at 11:08 AM, authfriend wrote:
 
  What's a bit odd about the current discussion of the
  TMO's perceived lack of spirituality is how judgmental
  it is.  Aren't being spiritual and being judgmental
  mutually contradictory?
 
 Maybe they're just speaking the sweet truth.
 
 The question then becomes why does the sweet truth seem so bitter
 to  you?

It might become that if I had suggested it seemed bitter
to me, but you made that up.  Perhaps you'd like to read
what I wrote again and respond to that instead of to your
fantasies of what I wrote?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  
  When you've got the answer to all of life's problems (i.e. TM), 
why 
  waste your precious time setting up hospitals and stuff like 
that?
 
 Better to spend yet another year of your precious time trying to 
raise
 billions from gov'ts for a variety of psychotic schemes like 
tearing
 down their cities?  In fact the TMO itself spends very little time 
and
 energy trying to teach TM and hasn't for over 20 yrs now.




Couldn't agree with you more.

All that silly energy wasted with psychotic schemes (VERY apt 
description!) when they could actually be spiritually regenerating 
the world.  Sad.


 
  And I'm not trying to be glib here.  Assuming for the moment 
that you 
  accept the premise that TM is everything it is claimed to be, 
why 
  waste precious and limited resources on charity work like 
schools and 
  food banks?
 
 Who in the world accepts what the TMO says at this point in time?  






I don't.

But I do accept the premise that TM works and does everything that 
is claimed that it does.

But what the TMO has been doing for the past 25 years has, in my 
opinion, been directly at odds with promulgating TM





If
 you do then you should come and work at MUM, the home of the 
solution
 to life's problems - and see how dysfunctional the place is!!
 
  Indeed, I would make the argument that the TMO is wasting 
precious 
  resources with side issues like Vastu, Yagyas, NLP, etc. when 
you've 
  got limited time, money and man power and you've got the 
solution -- 
  TM -- primed and ready to get to the world's people...
 
 I think teaching TM is a good thing, but when I think about the TMO
 I'm reminded of this quote from Jung: Hysterical self-deceivers...
 pretend to be seekers after God in order not to have to face the 
truth
 that they are ordinary egoists.


Amen to that...







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 on 1/1/06 9:35 AM, mrsatva at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Because it got too weird for people, or what ?
  
  Probebly all the reasons why people are leaving the TMO...
  
  I have been thinking about it for quit some time now and 
I 
  thing 
  the main reasons are to many scratches in the heart.
  One of the biggest TMO problems: the way people treat 
eatch 
  other.

Yup. It's a movement full of people who care more
about talking the talk than they do walking the 
walk. In fact, there is no perceived *value* in
walking the walk, whereas there is for talking
the talk. Good talkers get promoted into the
movement hierarchy, whereas those who actually
live quietly according to generally-accepted 
spiritual precepts get ignored or are cast off.

 I wonder how the TMO compares with other spiritual movements 
 in terms of this problem. 
   
   
By example is ALWAYS what wins. Maharishi could talk
and talk and talk forever ...--- and in fact has almost
no sense of loyalty to those who have served him for
years as TM teachers. -
   
   The loyalty stuff has always bothered me. It's nagged at me for 
a 
  long
   time. When I saw how Maharishi treated those closest to him, 
  (Charlie,
   Jerry, etc...) I knew something was 'rotten in Denmark'. Its a 
big
   cognitive disonance for a 'spiritual movement'.
  
  What's a bit odd about the current discussion of the
  TMO's perceived lack of spirituality is how judgmental
  it is.  Aren't being spiritual and being judgmental
  mutually contradictory?
 
 
 There is a big difference between 'judgemental' and the ability to
 discriminate. I've always thought that it is an important ethical 
and
 spiritual principle not to use someone's ignorance against them. 
(You
 can see a lot of that in the current TMO.) A corrallary of love thy
 neighbor as thyself, I guess. The new age axiom about being
 non-judgemental kill's the basic ability of the mind to make
 evolutionary decisions. That's what it's there for...

I don't think it's just a new age axiom.  I think
it's pretty traditional observation where enlightenment
is concerned.

In any case, of course you have to discriminate and
make evolutionary decisions; that isn't what I mean
by judgmentalism.  You can say, e.g., I choose to
do THIS rather than THAT, without saying, They're
selfish and unspiritual because they choose to do THAT
rather than THIS (implied: And my choice shows I'm
selfless and spiritually superior).  And you can
certainly also attempt to persuade them to stop doing
THAT and start doing THIS without being judgmental.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
snip
The loyalty stuff has always bothered me. It's nagged at me 
for a long time. When I saw how Maharishi treated those 
closest to him, (Charlie, Jerry, etc...) I knew something 
was 'rotten in Denmark'. Its a big cognitive disonance for 
a 'spiritual movement'.
   
   What's a bit odd about the current discussion of the
   TMO's perceived lack of spirituality is how judgmental
   it is.  Aren't being spiritual and being judgmental
   mutually contradictory?
  
  There is a big difference between 'judgemental' and the ability to
  discriminate. I've always thought that it is an important ethical 
  and spiritual principle not to use someone's ignorance against 
  them. (You can see a lot of that in the current TMO.) A 
  corrallary of love thy neighbor as thyself, I guess. The new age 
  axiom about being non-judgemental kill's the basic ability of the 
  mind to make evolutionary decisions. That's what it's there for...
 
 I don't think it's just a new age axiom.  I think
 it's pretty traditional observation where enlightenment
 is concerned.
 
 In any case, of course you have to discriminate and
 make evolutionary decisions; that isn't what I mean
 by judgmentalism.  You can say, e.g., I choose to
 do THIS rather than THAT, without saying, They're
 selfish and unspiritual because they choose to do THAT
 rather than THIS (implied: And my choice shows I'm
 selfless and spiritually superior).  And you can
 certainly also attempt to persuade them to stop doing
 THAT and start doing THIS without being judgmental.

I should add that I can be at least as judgmental as
the next guy (as I just demonstrated by being judgmental
about judgmentalism!).  It's just that I don't believe
that when I look at what someone else is doing and label
it as unspiritual, it somehow shows I'm more spiritual
than they are.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread shirleybrahman

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's
   founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the list
   for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.
  
  Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a 
 Hindu. She
  too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The list 
 goes on.
 
 
 When you've got the answer to all of life's problems (i.e. TM), why 
 waste your precious time setting up hospitals and stuff like that?
 

You may not be trying to be glib but you are acting like a total jerk.
Wasn't it Maharish who gave us the formula: Meditate and act  I
don't think he said, Meditate and sit around   Another comment he
made that has stuck with me for many years was Pick something great
to do and do it   

You'd probably walk past a swimming pool where a little kid was
drowning and think to yourself, Hey it's his karma; I practice TM and
have all the answers and keep walking.






 And I'm not trying to be glib here.  Assuming for the moment that you 
 accept the premise that TM is everything it is claimed to be, why 
 waste precious and limited resources on charity work like schools and 
 food banks?
 
 Indeed, I would make the argument that the TMO is wasting precious 
 resources with side issues like Vastu, Yagyas, NLP, etc. when you've 
 got limited time, money and man power and you've got the solution -- 
 TM -- primed and ready to get to the world's people...







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)



On Jan 2, 2006, at 3:01 PM, authfriend wrote:It might become that if I had suggested it seemed "bitter" to me, but you made that up.  Perhaps you'd like to read what I wrote again and respond to that instead of to your fantasies of what I wrote? It was sweet then? What rasa did you get from it?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread Marek Reavis

Comment below:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

**SNIP**

  Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's
  founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the list
  for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.
 
  Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a  
  Hindu. She
  too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The list  
  goes on.
 
 Even Swami Rama, who was involved in severe sexual manipulation of  
 his female students, created hospitals, ashrams and methods to take  
 his students to full enlightenment--well beyond mere mantra meditation.

**SNIP TO END**

Just as a side comment on the phrase mere mantra meditation I've
pasted a little bit from Nisargadatta following.  That's not to say I
don't agree with what I believe is the basic premise behind Vaj's use
of that phrase which is to do whatever it is that draws you in your
spiritual pursuit.  You can trust yourself to do what's right for you.
 You can trust yourself to make mistakes, too.  As Nisargadatta says,
it's your earnestness that is key.
...
The atman per se is self-sufficient.  But when it
clings to the body, treatments such as mental and
physical recreation or occupation are necessary;
without these the atman cannot be tolerated by a
person.  For spiritual evolution, which is a requisite
in the disengagement of the atman from body-identity,
various disciplines have been recommended.  Amongst
these, the best is namasmarana -- recitation of a holy
name of God.  But here God means the indwelling
principle within you -- the atman, which is given
various names.  These represent this inner-God who
will respond no matter what names of other Gods you
chant. . . . The keynote of recitation is to confine
this I-am-ness within itself.  The listener in you
listens to the chantings and feels greatly pleased.  

The merging of beingness within itself is the very
fount of bliss.

If you want eternal peace, you can have it and be it
through the absorbing devotional path -- the nama-japa
or bhakti-yoga.

In this country, for ages it has been accepted that a
sacred name carries great spiritual potency if recited
properly; it has no better substitute. . . .  When you
are initiated into a spiritual discipline with a
sacred name, it means that it represents your ultimate
true nature.  Be one with the sacred name completely,
then it will give you all the mystic knowledge
necessary for your spiritual elevation.  It will
awaken you into your eternal awareness.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

on 1/2/06 2:11 PM, shempmcgurk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 But I do accept the premise that TM works and does everything that
 is claimed that it does.
 
 But what the TMO has been doing for the past 25 years has, in my
 opinion, been directly at odds with promulgating TM

Then I guess TM didn't have the predicted effect on those responsible for
propagating TM. If it had, they would have made more sensible decisions.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread ultrarishi

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 In any case, of course you have to discriminate and
 make evolutionary decisions; that isn't what I mean
 by judgmentalism.  You can say, e.g., I choose to
 do THIS rather than THAT, without saying, They're
 selfish and unspiritual because they choose to do THAT
 rather than THIS (implied: And my choice shows I'm
 selfless and spiritually superior).  And you can
 certainly also attempt to persuade them to stop doing
 THAT and start doing THIS without being judgmental.


I've held on to making a distinction between what is discrimination 
(in the non-prejudice sense of the word)and judgmentalism.  To 
discriminate is to use one's common sense and awareness of reality and 
previously learned knowledge.  Judgmentalism is taking a morally 
superior position, wether earned or unearned, and casting a value 
determination of superiority over the judged.  It leads to a game of my
my karma is better than your karma.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jan 2, 2006, at 3:01 PM, authfriend wrote:
 
  It might become that if I had suggested it seemed bitter
  to me, but you made that up.  Perhaps you'd like to read
  what I wrote again and respond to that instead of to your
  fantasies of what I wrote?
 
 It was sweet then? What rasa did you get from it?

Actually I believe I suggested you reread what I wrote
and respond to that, rather than to your fantasies of
what I had written.

Here it is again:

  What's a bit odd about the current discussion of the
  TMO's perceived lack of spirituality is how judgmental
  it is. Aren't being spiritual and being judgmental
  mutually contradictory?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread ultrarishi

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's
   founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the 
list
   for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.
  
  Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a
 Hindu. She
  too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The list
 goes on.
 
 Gandhi was influenced by the American Trancedentalists, Thoreau, 
and
 Emerson, etc..., And Christianity The Bhagavad Gita made a 
loop to
 the West and back ;-) 
 
 JohnY


I like what Ram Das's quoted about his guru, Neem Karoli.  RD asked,
how do I raise my Kundalini?  NK replied, do service.









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)

2006-01-02 Thread shirleybrahman

Shemp
Apologies in advance for calling you names on my very first post to
this newsgroup. I've heard the argument you have put forth by seekers
in both the TM group as well as other so-called spiritual groups and
it always gets me riled up. Again, apologies.
(all this is) Shirley Brahman


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shirleybrahman
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  
   on 1/2/06 9:28 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
Different cultures define caring in different ways. The TMO's
founder is Hindu, and charity work isn't always the top of the
list
for Hindus, I guess due to the reincarnation/karma thing.
   
   Amma's a Hindu, and it's at the top of her list. Karunamayi is a 
  Hindu. She
   too sets up hospitals, schools, etc. Gandhi was a Hindu. The list 
  goes on.
  
  
  When you've got the answer to all of life's problems (i.e. TM), why 
  waste your precious time setting up hospitals and stuff like that?
  
 
 You may not be trying to be glib but you are acting like a total jerk.
 Wasn't it Maharish who gave us the formula: Meditate and act  I
 don't think he said, Meditate and sit around   Another comment he
 made that has stuck with me for many years was Pick something great
 to do and do it   
 
 You'd probably walk past a swimming pool where a little kid was
 drowning and think to yourself, Hey it's his karma; I practice TM and
 have all the answers and keep walking.
 
 
 
 
 
 
  And I'm not trying to be glib here.  Assuming for the moment that you 
  accept the premise that TM is everything it is claimed to be, why 
  waste precious and limited resources on charity work like schools and 
  food banks?
  
  Indeed, I would make the argument that the TMO is wasting precious 
  resources with side issues like Vastu, Yagyas, NLP, etc. when you've 
  got limited time, money and man power and you've got the solution -- 
  TM -- primed and ready to get to the world's people...
 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Fwd: Denmark Wooow !! ( from the black list to heaven)