[Fis] No, this is not the reason.

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Sung,

You wrote:
> I think the main reason that we express 'information'  as a logarithmic
function of the number of choices available, n, may be because the human
brain finds it easier to remember (and communicate and reason with)  10
than  100, or 100 than 10. . . . 0, etc.
>

No, this is not the reason.
The correct answer is that Shannon assume the n=0 as possible !!!
Because of this, to avoid dividing by zero he used log(s).
But this is impossible and many years the world works with log(s) not
understanding why !

log(s) is(are) no needed.

It is more clear and easy to work without log(s) :=)

Friendly greetings
Krassimir




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[Fis] If always n>0 why we need log

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Sung,

A simple question:

If always n>0 why we need log in

I = -log_2(m/n) = - log_2 (m) + log_2(n)   (1)

Friendly greetings

Krassimir


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Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Mark and FIS Colleagues,

First of all. I support the idea of Mark to write a paper and to publish it in 
IJ ITA.
It will be nice to continue our common work this way.

At the second place, I want to point that till now the discussion on 
Is information physical?
was more-less chaotic – we had no thesis and antithesis to discuss and to come 
to some conclusions.

I think now, the Mark’s letter may be used as the needed thesis.

What about the ant-thesis? Well, I will try to write something below.


For me, physical, structural and mental  are one and the same.

Mental means physical reflections and physical processes in the Infos 
consciousness. I.e. “physical” include “mental”.

Structure (as I understand this concept) is mental reflection of the 
relationships “between” and/or “in” real (physical) entities as well as 
“between” and/or “in” mental (physical) entities.

I.e. “physical” include “mental” include “structural”.

Finally, IF  “information is physical, structural and mental” THEN simply the  
“information is physical”!

Friendly greetings
Krassimir





From: Burgin, Mark 
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 5:20 AM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis

   Dear FISers,
   It was an interesting discussion, in which many highly intelligent and 
creative individuals participated expressing different points of view. Many 
interesting ideas were suggested. As a conclusion to this discussion, I would 
like to suggest a logical analysis of the problem based on our intrinsic and 
often tacit assumptions.

   To great extent, our possibility to answer the question “Is information 
physical? “ depends on our model of the world. Note that here physical means 
the nature of information and not its substance, or more exactly, the substance 
of its carrier, which can be physical, chemical biological or quantum. By the 
way, expression “quantum information” is only the way of expressing that the 
carrier of information belongs to the quantum level of nature. This is similar 
to the expressions “mixed numbers” or “decimal numbers”, which are only forms 
or number representations and not numbers themselves.
 
  If we assume that there is only the physical world, we have, at first, to 
answer the question “Does information exist? “ All FISers assume that 
information exists. Otherwise, they would not participate in our discussions. 
However, some people think differently (cf., for example, Furner, J. (2004) 
Information studies without information).

   Now assuming that information exists, we have only one option, namely, to 
admit that information is physical because only physical things exist.
   If we assume that there are two worlds - information is physical, we have 
three options assuming that information exists:
- information is physical
- information is mental
- information is both physical and mental  

Finally, coming to the Existential Triad of the World, which comprises three 
worlds - the physical world, the mental world and the world of structures, we 
have seven options assuming that information exists:
- information is physical
- information is mental
- information is structural  
- information is both physical and mental  
- information is both physical and structural  
- information is both structural and mental  
- information is physical, structural and mental  
  
The solution suggested by the general theory of information tries to avoid 
unnecessary multiplication of essences suggesting that information (in a 
general sense) exists in all three worlds but … in the physical world, it is 
called energy, in the mental world, it is called mental energy, and in the 
world of structures, it is called information (in the strict sense). This 
conclusion well correlates with the suggestion of Mark Johnson that information 
is both physical and not physical only the general theory of information makes 
this idea more exact and testable.
   In addition, being in the world of structures, information in the strict 
sense is represented in two other worlds by its representations and carriers. 
Note that any representation of information is its carrier but not each carrier 
of information is its representation. For instance, an envelope with a letter 
is a carrier of information in this letter but it is not its representation.
   Besides, it is possible to call all three faces of information by the name 
energy - physical energy, mental energy and structural energy.
   
   Finally, as many interesting ideas were suggested in this discussion, may be 
Krassimir will continue his excellent initiative combining the most interesting 
contributions into a paper with the title
  Is 
information physical?
   and publish it in his esteemed Journal.
   
   Sincerely,
   Mark Burgin


On 5/11/2018 3:20 AM, Karl Javorszky wrote:

  Dear Arturo,  


  There were some reports in clinical psychology, 

[Fis] INFORMATION IS PROCESSING the reflections

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Colleagues,



During activity of Infos’ consciousness, reflections are combined and as a 
result the new ones may be created and stored in the Infos memory.

Processing of some reflections may cause some activity, too.  



In other words, it doesn't matter what kind of Infos is active – the result is 
the same!



INFORMATION IS PROCESSING the reflections that has as final result an activity 
or new reflections.



Usually, the results of such processing are called “Information”.



Of course, to be active means to be real (material, physical) and to have 
energy for processing.

To store reflections, material objects are needed, i.e. “carriers”.



This is the main interconnection between mater, energy, and information.



No Information exist anywhere – only reflections – REAL, PHYSICAL REFLECTIONS!

Reflections in real, physical objects, including living creatures.

Including Brain!



Main difference between living and not living mater is possibility for 
processing of reflections.



Of course, many levels of such processing exist. 

Maybe, the most complex is the social one. 

Maybe, the simplest one is in the cells... 



Could the Machine process reflections? Still no answer ...

But the Computer can! 



"That's All Folks!" 



Friendly greetings

Krassimir








From: Karl Javorszky 
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 1:20 PM
To: Arturo Tozzi 
Cc: fis 
Subject: Re: [Fis] [FIS] Is information physical?

Dear Arturo,  


There were some reports in clinical psychology, about 30 years ago, that relate 
to the question whether a machine can pretend to be a therapist. That was the 
time as computers could newly be used in an interactive fashion, and the Rogers 
techniques were a current discovery.
(Rogers developed a dialogue method where one does not address the contents of 
what the patient says, but rather the emotional aspects of the message, assumed 
to be at work in the patient.)

They then said, that in some cases it was indistinguishable, whether a human or 
a machine provides the answer to a patient's elucidations. 

Progress since then has surely made possible to create machines that are 
indistinguishable in interaction to humans. Indeed, what is called "expert 
systems ", are widely used in many fields. If the interaction is rational,  
that is: formally equivalent to a logical discussion modi Wittgenstein, the 
difference in: "who arrived at this answer, machinery or a human", becomes 
irrelevant. 

Artistry, intuition, creativity are presently seen as not possible to translate 
into Wittgenstein sentences. Maybe the inner instincts are not yet well 
understood. But!: there are some who are busily undermining the current 
fundamentals of rational thinking. So there is hope that we shall live to 
experience the ultimate disillusionment,  namely that humans are a 
combinatorial tautology. 

Accordingly, may I respectfully express opposing views to what you state: that 
machines and humans are of incompatible builds. There are hints that as far as 
rational capabilities go, the same principles apply. There is a rest, you say, 
which is not of this kind. The counter argument says that irrational processes 
do not take place in organisms, therefore what you refer to belongs to the main 
process, maybe like waste belongs to the organism's principle. This view draws 
a picture of a functional biotope, in which the waste of one kind of organism 
is raw material for a different kind. 

Karl 

 schrieb am Do., 10. Mai 2018 15:24:

  Dear Bruno, 
  You state: 
  "IF indexical digital mechanism is correct in the cognitive science,
  THEN “physical” has to be defined entirely in arithmetical term, i.e. 
“physical” becomes a mathematical notion.
  ...Indexical digital mechanism is the hypothesis that there is a level of 
description of the brain/body such that I would survive, or “not feel any 
change” if my brain/body is replaced by a digital machine emulating the 
brain/body at that level of description".

  The problem of your account is the following:
  You say "IF" and "indexical digital mechanism is the HYPOTHESIS".
  Therefore, you are talking of an HYPOTHESIS: it is not empirically tested and 
it is not empirically testable.  You are starting with a sort of postulate: I, 
and other people, do not agree with it.  The current neuroscience does not 
state that our brain/body is (or can be replaced by) a digital machine.
  In other words, your "IF" stands for something that possibly does not exist 
in our real world.  Here your entire building falls down.  


  --
  Inviato da Libero Mail per Android

  giovedì, 10 maggio 2018, 02:46PM +02:00 da Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be:


(This mail has been sent previously , but without success. I resend it, 
with minor changes). Problems due to different accounts. It was my first 
comment to Mark Burgin new thread “Is information physical?”.


Dear Mark, Dear Colleagues, 


Apology for not answering the mails in the 

[Fis] information and energy are separable

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Sung and Francesco,

Information and Energy are not only separable but quite different.

More, the Energy exists without Information.
To create and process Information, Energy is needed.

Please see the next publication with example just from the economics   

ENERGY VERSUS INFORMATION
Krassimir Markov
page 122-125 in:
http://foibg.com/ibs_isc/ibs-31/IBS_ISC-No31-KDS2014.pdf

Friendly greetings
Krassimir





From: Francesco Rizzo 
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2018 10:42 AM
To: Sungchul Ji 
Cc: FIS FIS ; sji.confor...@gmail.com 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Are there 3 kinds of motions in physics and biology?

Caro Sung e cari tutti, 

"I think information and energy are inseparable in reality": è vero anche in 
economia. 


La Parte Terza--Teoria del valore: energia e informazione--  di "Valore e 
valutazioni. La scienza dell'economia o l'economia della scienza" 
(FrancoAngeli, Milano, 1995-1999) è costituita dalle pagine 451-646  contenenti 
questa interessante e significativa problematica. 

Grazie e auguri.

Francesco

2018-05-07 4:08 GMT+02:00 Sungchul Ji <s...@pharmacy.rutgers.edu>:


  Hi FISers,

  I think information and energy are inseparable in reality.  Hence to 
understand what information is, it may be helpful to understand what energy 
(and the associated concept of motion) is.  In this spirit, I am forwarding the 
following email that I wrote motivated by the lecture given by Dr. Grossberg 
this afternoon at the 119th Statistical Mechanics Conference.  In Table 1 in 
the email, I divided particle motions studied in physics and biology into three 
classes -- (i) random, (ii) passive, and (iii) active, and identified the field 
of specialization wherein these motions are studied as (i) statistical 
mechanics, (ii) stochastic mechanics, and (iii) info-statistical mechanics.  
The last term was coined by me in 2012  in [1].  I will be presenting a short 
talk (5 minutes) on Info-statistical mechanics on Wednesday, May 9, at the 
above meeting.   The abstract of the short talk is given below:

  Short talk to be presented at the 119th Statistical Mechanics Conference, 
Rutgers University, Piscataway, N.J., May 6-9, 2018).



  Planckian Information may be to Info-Statistical Mechanics what Boltzmann 
Entropy is to Statistical Mechanics. 

  Sungchul Ji, Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, Ernest Mario School 
of Pharmacy, Rutgers University, Piscataway, N.J. 08854

  Traditionally, the dynamics of any N-particle systems in statistical 
mechanics is completely described in terms of the 6-dimensional phase space 
consisting of the 3N positional coordinates and 3N momenta, where N is the 
number of particles in the system [1]. Unlike the particles dealt with in 
statistical mechanics which are featureless and shapeless, the particles in 
biology have characteristic shapes and internal structures that determine their 
biological properties.  The particles in physics are completely described in 
terms of energy and matter in the phase space but the description of the 
particles in living systems require not only the energy and matter of the 
particle but also their genetic information, consistent with the 
information-energy complementarity (or gnergy) postulate discussed in [2, 
Section 2.3.2].  Thus, it seems necessary to expand the dimensionality of the 
traditional phase space to accommodate the information dimension, which 
includes the three coordinates encoding the amount (in bits), meaning (e.g., 
recognizability), and value (e.g., practical effects) of information [2, 
Section 4.3]. Similar views were expressed by Bellomo et al. [3] and Mamontov 
et al. [4].  The expanded “phase space” would comprise the 6N phase space of 
traditional statistical mechanics plus the 3N information space entailed by 
molecular biology.  The new space (to be called the “gnergy space”) composed of 
these two subspaces would have 9N dimensions as indicated in Eq. (1).  This 
equation also makes contact with the concepts of  synchronic and diachronic 
informations discussed in [2, Section 4.5].  It was suggested therein that the 
traditional 6N-dimensional phase space deals with  the synchronic information 
and hence was referred to as the Synchronic Space while the 3N-dimensional 
information space is concerned with the consequences of history and evolution 
encoded in each particle and thus was referred to as the Diachronic Space.  The 
resulting space was called the gnergy space (since it encodes not only energy 
but also information).  



 Gnergy Space =  6N-D Phase Space  +  3N-D  Information Space   
 (1)

  (Synchronic Space)   
(Diachronic Space) 



  The study of both energy and information was defined as “info-statistical 
mechanics” in 2012 [2, pp. 102-106, 297-301].  The Planckian information of the 
second kind, IPS, [5] was defined as the negative of the binary logarithm of 
the skewness of the long-

[Fis] The Information is “Real” but it exists only in the Infos consciousness!

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Jerry,



Your “and so forth” and my “and etc.” have equal meaning, i.e. I did not omit 
anything and have pointed that there are many others. 
For the same purpose I shall use three dots: “...” below. 



Well, of course, we may build many questions using, for instance, the 
construction like given below:



Is

{anti-, auto-,de-,dis-,down-,extra-,hyper-,il-, im-, in-, 
ir-,inter-,mega-,mid-,mis-,non-,over-,out-,post-,pre-,pro-,re-,semi-,sub-,super-,tele-,trans-,ultra-,un-,under-,up-,
 ...}

-form-ation 

{physical, chemical, mechanical, biological, psychological, social, ...} ?



The answer to all these questions is “YES!”



What is important is that the information is “Real” or “Mental” depending of 
Infos and its point of view. 

It is clear, that “Mental” is a kind of “Real”.



This means that:

The Information is “Real” but it exists only in the Infos consciousness!



Only what we have to do is to say explicitly what it is. 

Unfortunately, it could not be done in the frames of specialized information 
theories such as those of Shannon, Semiotics, Linguistics, Artificial 
Intelligence, and etc.



Friendly greetings

Krassimir




From: Jerry LR Chandler 
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2018 3:21 AM
To: fis 
Cc: Krassimir Markov 
Subject: Re: [Fis] “The information is “Real” or “Mental” depending of point of 
view!”.

List,

  On Apr 28, 2018, at 6:22 AM, Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com> wrote:

  The question “Is information physical?” is very important as well as so 
important are the questions “Is information chemical?”, “Is information 
mechanical?”, “Is information electronic?”, and etc. .

  All questions above may be summarized to “Is information real?” and, of 
course, the question “Is information mental?” immediately rises! 

  My answer to all these question is “YES!”.

I am sort of at lost as to the meanings of these assertions. In particular, I 
note that the semiotics of various disciplines is intermingled with the several 
different scientific syntaxes,  semantics and grammars (that is of physics, 
chemistry, mechanics and electronics as well as the omission of biology.) 
One way of examining meaning of these queries is to substitute “parallel  
terms” into the antecedent logical structure and compare the consequences for 
the meaning of the questions.

Consider the following parallel questions where other “form” terms are 
substituted for the term in-form-ation :

Is re-form-ation physical?
Is de-form-ation physical?
Is con-form-ation physical?
Is trans-form-ation physical?

Similarly,
Is re-form-ation chemical?
Is de-form-ation chemical?
Is con-form-ation chemical?
Is trans-form-ation chemical?

And, I add the discipline of biology to the list:
Is re-form-ation biological?
Is de-form-ation biological?
Is con-form-ation biological?
Is trans-form-ation biological?

and so forth.  
Are the answers to these questions also YES? Or, are some answers NO?

Are these questions related to Tarsi’s meta-languages?  (See, Malatesta, The 
Primary Logics)
Are these questions related to Lesniewski’s part-whole logic (merology)?

My answers to these two questions is YES.

Can this these questions lead to a mentation that generates a sharper inquiry 
into the meanings of “forms”?
In particular, how does in-formation differ from other changes of form?

One potential differentiation is the nature of communication according to 
Shannon who  designed an electronic system for communication? His system of 
meaning for information necessarily requires a sender and a receiver.

In contrast to the necessary change of form required by the logic of the terms 
reformation, deformation, conformation and transformation, 
Shannon / electronic information requires that no change of form occurs during 
transmission. 

Indeed, a change in form in a message during transmission is called an error 
(and this difference plays a huge role in Shannon’s theory of communication.)

The open question in my mind is:
Do these questions relate human communication?
Or, are these questions artifacts of the interpretations  of mathematical 
syntaxes?

Or viewed from a different semiotic perspective, can we have a scientific 
theory of the Foundations without incorporating the role of the encoding in 
creating the Shannon transmissible message?

How important is this question for the Foundation of Information Sciences 
(plural)?

Cheers
Jerry













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[Fis] Is information physical? OR Does the information exist without the carrier?

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Mark and Colleagues,



Very nice “simple question”:  “Is information physical?”

I agree that “letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical objects 
are only carriers of information”.

The brain is carrier of information, too. 



Now, I think, what we need to clear is another “simple question” closely 
interrelated to yours:



Does the information exist without the carrier?



In other words, can the color, speed, weigh, temperature, time, etc., exist 
without objects which these characteristics belong to and may be measured by 
other objects. 

To understand more clearly, let see the case of “time”.

Does the time really exist?

Does the time exist without real regular processes which we may reflect and 
compare?

The time is falling drops of water, the movement of the pendulum, etc.

One may say, the time is information about all these processes.

OK! But, if these processes do not exist, will we have “time”?



I think, we have a question in two interrelated explanations: 

- Is information physical?

- Does the information exist without the carrier?



Friendly greetings

Krassimir

From: Burgin, Mark 
the movement of the pendulum

falling drops of water

Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2018 4:47 AM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Is information physical?

Dear Colleagues,

I would like to suggest the new topic for discussion

  Is information physical?


My opinion is presented below:



   Why some people erroneously think that information is physical

   

   The main reason to think that information is physical is the strong belief 
of many people, especially, scientists that there is only physical reality, 
which is studied by science. At the same time, people encounter something that 
they call information.

   When people receive a letter, they comprehend that it is information because 
with the letter they receive information. The letter is physical, i.e., a 
physical object. As a result, people start thinking that information is 
physical. When people receive an e-mail, they comprehend that it is information 
because with the e-mail they receive information. The e-mail comes to the 
computer in the form of electromagnetic waves, which are physical. As a result, 
people start thinking even more that information is physical.

   However, letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical objects 
are only carriers or containers of information.

   To understand this better, let us consider a textbook. Is possible to say 
that this book is knowledge? Any reasonable person will tell that the textbook 
contains knowledge but is not knowledge itself. In the same way, the textbook 
contains information but is not information itself. The same is true for 
letters, e-mails, electromagnetic waves and other physical objects because all 
of them only contain information but are not information. For instance, as we 
know, different letters can contain the same information. Even if we make an 
identical copy of a letter or any other text, then the letter and its copy will 
be different physical objects (physical things) but they will contain the same 
information.

   Information belongs to a different (non-physical) world of knowledge, data 
and similar essences. In spite of this, information can act on physical objects 
(physical bodies) and this action also misleads people who think that 
information is physical.

   One more misleading property of information is that people can measure it. 
This brings an erroneous assumption that it is possible to measure only 
physical essences. Naturally, this brings people to the erroneous conclusion 
that information is physical. However, measuring information is essentially 
different than measuring physical quantities, i.e., weight. There are no 
“scales” that measure information. Only human intellect can do this.

   It is possible to find more explanations that information is not physical in 
the general theory of information. 

Sincerely,
Mark Burgin



On 4/24/2018 10:46 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:

  Dear FIS Colleagues,

  A very interesting discussion theme has been proposed by Mark Burgin --he 
will post at his early convenience. 
  Thanks are due to Alberto for his "dataism" piece. Quite probably we will 
need to revisit that theme, as it is gaining increasing momentum in present 
"information societies", in science as well as in everyday life...
  Thanks also to Sung for his interesting viewpoint and references.

  Best wishes to all,
  --Pedro 


 
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
- 
   Libre de virus. www.avast.com  


   

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[Fis] Theory of named sets (TNS) and General Information Theory (GIT)

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Mark and Colleagues,

Thank you for the nice remarks!

The concept “INFOS” had been proposed in the end of 1989.
The second part of the General Information Theory (GIT) is just the “Theory of 
INFOS”.
The are many interesting ideas about INFOS, some of them you have pointed.
Step by step I shall present them in FIS.

The fundamental triad is the very basic concept of the mathematics – remember 
the formula “y=f(x)”. 
It is the very basic model concept, too. 

Especially about your Theory of named sets (TNS) and my Multi-domain 
information model (MDIM) I want to mention:
- both represent the same idea but from different points of view -  TNS is a 
mathematical theory, MDIM is an information theory (for modeling) of the brain 
activities;
- they were invented independently in the same time in the end of seventies of 
last century – the TNS first known (for me) publication is in 1982 in Dushanbe; 
the MDIM (and GIT) first publication was in 1984 in Plovdiv; In 1988, in 
Warsaw, prof. Viktor Policarpovich Gladun had pointed on the similarity and the 
correspondence between TNS and MDIM;
-TNS had been proved by the great number of the MDIM practical realizations;
- now the Resource Definition Framework (RDF) of W3C  is a world accepted 
paradigm for representing Big Data. RDF is based just on triples! MDIM covers 
all possibilities of RDF and respectively – of TNS.

During the years, the GIT had been developed on the fundament of MDIM and on 
the experiments with its practical realizations.  

Friendly greetings
Krassimir





From: Burgin, Mark 
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2018 12:42 AM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Welcome to Knowledge Market and the FIS Sci-coins

Dear Krassimir and other FISers,

After reading the interesting contribution of Krassimir, I would like to share 
with you some of my impressions and ideas.

I like very much the term INFOS suggested by Krassimir. It’s possible to 
suggest that Krassimir assumed the following definition.
An INFOS is a system functioning (behavior) of which is regulated by 
information.
This definition implies that each INFOS has an information processor. 
Then it is possible to distinguish different categories and types of INFOS. For 
instance:
 INFOS only with acceptors/receptors
 INFOS only with effectors
 INFOS with both acceptors/receptors and effectors
Then it is possible to develop an interesting theory of INFOS. 

At the same time, the difference between reality and consciousness needs 
improvement because what many people mean using the word reality is actually 
only one of the variety of realities, namely, the physical or material reality, 
while consciousness is a part of the mental reality. It is possible to find 
more information about different realities and their interaction in the book 
(Burgin, Structural Reality, 2012). Please, don’t confuse Structural Reality 
with virtual reality.  

One more issue from the interesting contribution of Krassimir, which allows 
further development, is the structure of a model. Namely, the relation (s, e, 
r) between a model s of an entity r forms not simply a triple but a fundamental 
triad, which is also called a named set.

Why this is important? The reason to conceive the structure (s, e, r) as a 
fundamental triad or a named set is that there is an advanced mathematical 
theory of named sets, the most comprehensive exposition of which is in the book 
(Burgin, Theory of Named Sets, 2011), and it is possible to use this 
mathematical theory for studying and using models. For instance, the structure 
from Figure 1 in Krassimir’s letter is a morphism of named sets. Named set 
theory describes many properties of such morphism and categories built of named 
sets and their morphism. The structures from Figure 2 in Krassimir’s letter are 
chains of named sets, which are also studied in named set theory.

To conclude it is necessary to understand that if we want to apply mathematics 
in some area it is necessary to use adequate areas of mathematics. As Roger 
Bacon wrote, All science requires mathematics, but mathematics provides 
different devices that are suited to different input. In this respect, when you 
give good quality grains to a mathematical mill, it outputs good quality flour, 
while if you put the same grains into a mathematical petrol engine, it outputs 
trash.

The theory of named sets might be very useful for information studies because 
named sets and their chains allow adequate reflection of information and 
information processes.
 
Sincerely,
Mark


On 3/11/2018 3:34 PM, Krassimir Markov wrote:

   

  Dear Colleagues,



  This letter contains more than one theme, so it is structured as follow:

  - next step in “mental model” explanation;

  - about “Knowledge market”, FIS letters’ sequences and FIS Sci-coins.

   

  1. The next step in “mental model” explanation:

   

  Let remember shortly my letter from 05.03.2018.

   

  To avoid misunderstandings with concepts

[Fis] a short survey on the “mental models”

[Krassimir Markov]

, M.S. (Ed.) The Cognitive 
Neurosciences. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, pp. 999-1008.

[Markov et al, 2007] Kr. Markov, Kr. Ivanova, I. Mitov. Basic Structure of the 
General Information Theory. IJ ITA, Vol.14, No.: 1, 2007. pp. 5-19.

[MMRW, 2018]  Mental Models and Reasoning website (MMRW). 
http://mentalmodels.princeton.edu/about/what-are-mental-models/  

[Peirce, 1896], Charles Sanders. Principles of Philosophy, 10. Kinds of 
reasoning, 66. Deduction. page 28 in Collected Papers of Charles Sanders 
Peirce, Volume 1. Harvard University Press, 1931. 1932, 1959, 1960, 1974 - 535 
pages. ISBN 0-674-13800-7. 
https://books.google.bg/books?id=HoRfcRUtpnEC=PA28=PA28=%22forms+a+diagram+of+that+state+of+things%22=bl=I0XHZ5xFGs=B2TdRiv8dMsgG9ti9fcp79OEDDo=bg=X=0ahUKEwjxgKno0O7ZAhXkYJoKHbBVBa8Q6AEIOjAD#v=onepage=%22forms%20a%20diagram%20of%20that%20state%20of%20things%22=false
  ; see also: 
http://wittgensteinrepository.org/agora-ontos/article/viewFile/2200/2462

[Plato, 2002] Plato. The Republic. IDPH. 
http://www.idph.net/conteudos/ebooks/republic.pdf 

[Wittgenstein, 1922] Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, 
translated C. K. Ogden, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & CO., New York: 
Harcourt, Brace & Company,1922 (in English). 
https://monoskop.org/File:Wittgenstein_Ludwig_Tractatus_Logico_Philosophicus_1922.pdf
 ) 








From: Krassimir Markov 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 12:34 AM
... 
Infos has possibility to reflect the reality via receptors and to operate with 
received reflections in its memory. The opposite is possible - via effectors 
Infos has possibility to realize in reality some of its (self-) reflections 
from its consciousness.

 

The commutative diagram on Figure 1 represents modeling relations. In the frame 
of diagram:

- in reality: real models: s is a model of r, 

- in consciousness: mental models: si is a mental model of ri;

- between reality and consciousness: perceiving data and creating mental 
models:  triple (si, ei, ri) is a mental model of triple (s, e, r).

 

It is easy to imagine the case when the Infos realizes its reflections using 
its effectors, i.e. relation between consciousness and reality: realizing 
mental models and creating data. In this case the receptors’ arrows should be 
replaces by opposite effectors’ arrows. In this case triple (s, e, r) is a 
realization of the mental model (si, ei, ri).

 

 



Figure 1

 

 

After creating the mental model it may be reflected by other levels of 
consciousness. In literature several such levels are described. For instance, 
in [2], six levels are separated for humans (Figure 2). The complexity of Infos 
determines the levels. For instance, for societies the levels are much more, 
for animals with no neo-cortex the levels a less.

 





 
 

Figure 2.   [2]

 

This means that the mental models are on different consciousness levels and 
different types (for instance - touch, audition, vision).

 

In [2], Jeff Hawkins had remarked: “The transformation— from fast changing to 
slow changing and from spatially specific to spatially invariant— is well 
documented for vision. And although there is a smaller body of evidence to 
prove it, many neuroscientists believe you'd find the same thing happening in 
all the sensory areas of your cortex, not just in vision” [2].

 

As it is shown on Figure 2 mental models are in very large range from spatially 
specific to spatially invariant; from fast changing to slow changing; from 
“features” and “details” to objects”.

To be continued...

 

...



Friendly greetings

Krassimir

 

References

[1] Kr. Markov, Kr. Ivanova, I. Mitov. Basic Structure of the General 
Information Theory. IJ ITA, Vol.14, No.: 1, 2007. pp. 5-19.

[2] Hawkins, Jeff (2004). On Intelligence (1st ed.). Times Books. p. 272. ISBN 
0805074562.




_<>


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[Fis] Welcome to Knowledge Market and the FIS Sci-coins

[Krassimir Markov]

 

Dear Colleagues,



This letter contains more than one theme, so it is structured as follow:

- next step in “mental model” explanation;

- about “Knowledge market”, FIS letters’ sequences and FIS Sci-coins.

 

1. The next step in “mental model” explanation:

 

Let remember shortly my letter from 05.03.2018.

 

To avoid misunderstandings with concepts Subject, agent, animal, human, 
society, humanity, living creatures, etc., in [1] we use the abstract concept 
“INFOS” to denote every of them as well as all of artificial creatures which 
has features similar to the former ones.

 

Infos has possibility to reflect the reality via receptors and to operate with 
received reflections in its memory. The opposite is possible - via effectors 
Infos has possibility to realize in reality some of its (self-) reflections 
from its consciousness.

 

The commutative diagram on Figure 1 represents modeling relations. In the frame 
of diagram:

- in reality: real models: s is a model of r, 

- in consciousness: mental models: si is a mental model of ri;

- between reality and consciousness: perceiving data and creating mental 
models:  triple (si, ei, ri) is a mental model of triple (s, e, r).

 

It is easy to imagine the case when the Infos realizes its reflections using 
its effectors, i.e. relation between consciousness and reality: realizing 
mental models and creating data. In this case the receptors’ arrows should be 
replaces by opposite effectors’ arrows. In this case triple (s, e, r) is a 
realization of the mental model (si, ei, ri).

 

 



Figure 1

 

 

After creating the mental model it may be reflected by other levels of 
consciousness. In literature several such levels are described. For instance, 
in [2], six levels are separated for humans (Figure 2). The complexity of Infos 
determines the levels. For instance, for societies the levels are much more, 
for animals with no neo-cortex the levels a less.

 








 

Figure 2.   [2]

 

This means that the mental models are on different consciousness levels and 
different types (for instance - touch, audition, vision).

 

In [2], Jeff Hawkins had remarked: “The transformation— from fast changing to 
slow changing and from spatially specific to spatially invariant— is well 
documented for vision. And although there is a smaller body of evidence to 
prove it, many neuroscientists believe you'd find the same thing happening in 
all the sensory areas of your cortex, not just in vision” [2].

 

As it is shown on Figure 2 mental models are in very large range from spatially 
specific to spatially invariant; from fast changing to slow changing; from 
“features” and “details” to objects”.

To be continued...

 

2.Aabout “Knowledge market”, FIS letters’ sequences and FIS Sci-coins.

 

The block-chain idea is not new. All forums and mailing lists have the 
possibility to organize incoming messages in internally connected sequences. 
The new is the Bit-coin, i.e. the price for including a message in the sequence 
received after successful solving a difficult task.

 

What we have in FIS are letters’ sequences already created for many years. What 
is needed to start using them is to be strictly when we answer to any letter 
not to change the “Subject” of the letter. The list archive may help us to 
follow the sequences - only what is needed to ask sorting by [ Subject ]. We 
may sort by [ Thread ] [ Subject ] [ Author ] [ Date ]. 

This means that the letter corresponds to the block, and the sequence of 
letters corresponds to the chain. 

 

What about the currency? 

In [3] we had introduced the new concept “Knowledge marked”. It is remembered 
in [4] where the approach for measuring the scientific contributions was 
proposed. It was proposed to use the “paper” as basic measurement unit. Now I 
may say, the paper is our “Sci-coin”. This Sci-coin is convertible to real 
currencies - it is wide accepted the price of a paper to be downloaded as 
pdf-file is about 30-35 EURO or USD.

 

Finally, the paper “Data versus Information” [5] is an example of a FIS 
Sci-coin mined from the letters’ sequences. 

As we had seen, it is not so easy to “mine the Sci-coin”!

 

Friendly greetings

Krassimir

 

References

[1] Kr. Markov, Kr. Ivanova, I. Mitov. Basic Structure of the General 
Information Theory. IJ ITA, Vol.14, No.: 1, 2007. pp. 5-19.

[2] Hawkins, Jeff (2004). On Intelligence (1st ed.). Times Books. p. 272. ISBN 
0805074562.

[3] K. Markov, K. Ivanova, I. Mitov, N. Ivanova, A. Danilov, K. Boikatchev. 
Basic Structure of the Knowledge Market. IJ ITA, 2002, V.9, No.4, pp. 123-134.

[4] Kr. Markov, Kr. Ivanova, V. Velychko, “Usefulness of Scientific 
Contributions”, International Journal “Information Theories and Applications”, 
Vol.20, Number 1, 2013, ISSN 1310-0513 (printed), ISSN 1313-0463 (online), pp. 
4-38.

http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol20/ijita20-01-p01.pdf 

[5] Krassimir Markov, Christophe Menant, Stanley N Salthe, Yixin Zhong, Karl

[Fis] “model” and “mental model”

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear FIS Colleagues,



I agree with Joseph and Pedro that: 

“There are no ideal meta-observers; we are all, to a certain extent, both 
meta-observers of the discussion and participants in it. This is not a simple 
vertical hierarchy. We move between these two roles, switching from actualizing 
one to the other.”



What I think is that from point of view of the observed system, object, event, 
etc., it is better to say “external observer” and “internal observer” in 
corresponded cases just because “this is not a simple vertical hierarchy”.



Now, let me continue with little explanation about “model” and “mental model”.



If one will visit the Wikipedia he/she will find series of examples of concept 
“model” [1].



As Marx Wartofsky remarks [2], the concept "model" has been used for denotation 
of the very large class of phenomena: mechanical, theoretical, linguistic, etc. 
constructions. He gave a good definition of the model relation and in [2] he 
made clear the main characteristics of the models. His definition is as follow: 



“

The model relation is triple M: 

M: (S, x, y) 

where "S" is subject for whom "x" represents "y". 

In other words only in this relation and only for the subject "S" the entity 
"x" is a model of the entity "y".

“



The easy but not serious definition of the “mental model” is to say: “it is a 
model in the subject’s consciousness”. 

Again, in Wikipedia, there are several examples [5]. 

This way is not good because it is very difficult to answer the question: who 
is “the subject” in this case? 



So, we need another definition.



In mathematics, a structure on a set, or more generally a type, consists of 
additional mathematical objects that, in some manner, attach (or relate) to the 
set, making it easier to visualize or work with, or endowing the collection 
with meaning or significance. A partial list of possible structures are 
measures, algebraic structures (groups, fields, etc.), topologies, metric 
structures (geometries), orders, events, equivalence relations, differential 
structures, and categories.



Sometimes, a set is endowed with more than one structure simultaneously; this 
enables mathematicians to study it more richly. For example, an order induces a 
topology. As another example, if a set both has a topology and is a group, and 
the two structures are related in a certain way, the set becomes a topological 
group.



Mappings between sets which preserve structures (so that structures in the 
domain are mapped to equivalent structures in the co-domain) are of special 
interest in many fields of mathematics. Examples are homomorphisms, which 
preserve algebraic structures; homeomorphisms, which preserve topological 
structures; diffeomorphisms, which preserve differential structures; [3], and 
the functors which preserve category structures.



To avoid misunderstandings with concepts Subject, agent, animal, human, 
society, humanity, living creatures, etc., in [4] we use the abstract concept 
“INFOS” to denote every of them as well as all of artificial creatures which 
has features similar to the former ones. 



Here we are interested only of three features of Infos: receptors, effectors, 
and memory. Infos has possibility to reflect the reality via receptors and to 
operate with received reflections in its memory. The opposite is possible - via 
effectors Infos has possibility to realize in reality some of its 
(self-)reflections from its consciousness.



If the following diagram exists and if it is commutative, then it represents 
all modeling relations:

- in reality: real models, 

- in consciousness: mental models;

- between reality and consciousness: perceiving data and creating mental models.

It is easy to imagine the case when the Infos realizes its reflections using 
its effectors, i.e. relation between consciousness and reality: realizing 
mental models and creating data. In this case the receptors’ arrows should be 
replaces by opposite effectors’ arrows.





In mathematical terms in diagram above:

― Source “s” and Recipient “r” are structured sets;

― Infos is an intelligent system;

― “e” is a mapping from s in r which preserves (all or partial) structures;

― mental source “si” and mental recipient “ri” are structured sets;

― “ei” is a mapping from si in ri which preserves (all or partial) structures.



Finally, the task of the external observer is to create the diagram above by 
using some experimental data and staying outside the system (consciousness) - 
above the dotted line. 

Respectively, the internal observer does the opposite. The task of the internal 
observer is to create the diagram above by using some (experimental) data and 
staying inside the system (consciousness) – below the dotted line.



Friendly greetings

Krassimir



[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model

[2] M.W.Wartofsky. Models. Representation and the Scientific Understanding. 
D.Reidel Publishing Company, Dordrecht: Holland /Boston: USA, London: 

[Fis] The Giordano's answer !

[Krassimir Markov]

Yes, correct. The right concept is the “external observer” – answered Giordano!

From: Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov 
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2018 11:36 AM
To: Loet Leydesdorff 
Cc: fis 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Meta-observer?

I know him: his name is God, the meta-observer + meta-actor at the same time. 
Correct, Bruno?
;-)

best,

Plamen






On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Loet Leydesdorff  wrote:

  Dear Pedro, Koichiro, and colleagues,

  At the level of observers, indeed, a hierarchy may be involved for the change 
of focus (although this is empirical  and not necessarily the case). The 
communication, however, as a system different from the communicators may 
contain mechanisms such as "translation" which make it possible to redirect. 

  Best,
  Loet


--

  Loet Leydesdorff 

  Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
  Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)

  l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ 
  Associate Faculty, SPRU, University of Sussex; 

  Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ., Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, Beijing;

  Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck, University of London; 

  http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYJ=en



  -- Original Message --
  From: "Koichiro Matsuno" 
  To: fis@listas.unizar.es
  Sent: 3/2/2018 6:41:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [Fis] Meta-observer?

On 28 Feb 2018 at 10:34 PM, PedroClemente Marijuan Fernadez wrote:

A sort of "attention" capable of fast and furious displacements of the 
focus...  helas, this means a meta-observer or an observer-in-command.

   Pedro, it is of course one thing to conceive of a hierarchy of observers 
for our own sake, but quite another to figure out what the concrete 
participants such as molecules are doing out there. They are doing what would 
seem appropriate for them to do without minding what we are observing. At issue 
must be how something looking like a chain of command could happen to emerge 
without presuming such a chain in the beginning. Prerequisite to its emergence 
would be the well-being of each participant taken care of locally, as a 
replenishable inevitable. That is an issue of the origins of life. The 
impending agenda is on something general universal as an object, and yet 
concrete particular enough in process. The richness resides within the 
concreteness down to the bottom. 



   Apropos, the communications among the local participants differ from 
computation despite the seemingly concrete outlook of the latter. Computation 
upon the notion of time as the linear sequence of the now points is not 
available to the local participants because of the lack of the physical means 
for guaranteeing the sharing of the same now-point among themselves.



   Koichiro Matsuno








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[Fis] "Mental model" ???

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear colleagues,

I understand that it is not so easy to answer to the simple question.

But the mental models are very important for understanding the information and 
communication phenomena.

So, again the same simple question: What is the “mental model”?

Friendly greetings
Krassimir


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[Fis] The shadows are real !!!

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Sung,

I like your approach but I think it is only a part of the whole.

1. The shadows are real but only a part of the whole. What is needed is a 
systematic research from what they are part.

2. About the whole now I will use the category theory I have seen you like:

CATA => F => CATB => G => CATC

CATA => H => CATC

F ○ G = H

where

F, G, and H are functors;

CATII Î CAT is the category of information interaction categories;

CATA Î CATII and CATC Î CATII  are the categories of mental models’ categories;

CATB Î CATII  is the category of models’ categories.

Of course, I will explain this in natural language (English) in further posts. 


;

Dear  Karl,
Thank you for your post – it is very useful and I will discus it in further 
posts.
;

Dear Pedro,
Thank you for your nice words. 
Mathematics is very good to be used when all know the mathematical languages.
Unfortunately, only a few scientists are involved in the mathematical 
reasoning, in one hand, and, as the Bourbaki experiment had shown, not 
everything is ready to be formalized. 
How much of FIS members understood what I had written above?
The way starts from philosophical reasoning  and only some times ends in 
mathematical formal explanations.

Friendly greetings
Krassimir








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[Fis] What is the “mental model”?

[Krassimir Markov]

ot your way"!

Your brain will compare the "something in consciousness" with incoming 
reflection (data) and as far is the new data to it so unexpected it is.


*** End of conversation ***



The important keyword in this conversation is the concept “model”. Models are 
created by or reflected in the consciousness. 

Because of this, my simple question is:


What is the “mental model”? 


Friendly greetings

Krassimir






From: tozziart...@libero.it 
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 12:42 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es ; Krassimir Markov 
Subject: Re: [Fis] The polite and high scientific style of the posts to be 
published in an International Journal are OBLIGATED!


Dear Krassimir, 

There is a misundertanding.

I'm not discussing the quality of the Journal, nor the absence of my name.

I'm just annoyed that the most represented position among FISers, i.e., that 
information is an objective, quantitative, physical measure linked to 
informational entropy, has not been taken into account at all.  After all our 
efforts to mantain our firm position, we have been censored.

Il 18 febbraio 2018 alle 23.15 Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com> ha scritto:


Dear Arturo,

1. You are not correct and not right!

If it is written as you have seen, it is just as it is!
Three times we kindly asked for permission but no answer.
It is possible that my letters were rejected automatically as spam.
What to do? Only what we could to do was to cite posts and to give links.

In addition, it is impossible to include long posts in a short paper. 
Because of this, they have to be shortened by author (preferred) or by the 
editor.

2. The main result from our work on the paper is clearly summarized in my  
final words in the paper.
No problems, if you could not read them.
My next post next week will remember it.

3. Finally, the paper in not stenographic protocol. 
Not every post is connected to the given theme and it is clear that it could 
not be taken in a short paper.
The theme of discussion for the paper usually is pointed in my “simple 
questions”.

If your posts will concern the discussed theme, please clearly point this.

4. In the next discussion which will start soon, everybody is kindly invited to 
take part and to be included in the future paper.

The polite and high scientific style of the posts to be published in an 
International Journal are OBLIGATED!

Friendly greetings
Krassimir






From: tozziart...@libero.it
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2018 10:58 PM
To: Krassimir Markov ; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] The FIS paper "Data versus Information " is published


Dear, prominent Authors,

You write in this paper: " Several posts are not included in the text below due 
to lack of permission from their authors".

I think that several post were not included in the text just because they were 
too critical against the loose, flabby concepts of information provided in this 
paper.  

Some contributions are very interesting, but others deserve the despising label 
of pseudoscience. 

On the other side, If you provide ELEVEN (more or less, I cannot be sure, I 
counted it, but I lost my attention after the Greeek Gods...) different 
definitions of information, how do you hope to be trusted? 




Forgive me to be honest, but FIS means also harsh discussion!  





Il 18 febbraio 2018 alle 20.49 Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com> ha scritto:


Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,

I am glad to inform you that the paper which was created by a group of FIS 
members is ready.
It is published with open access in the International Journal “Information 
Theories and Applications”, Volume 24, Number 4, pages 303-321.

The title of the paper is “Data versus Information“.
It contains a small part of FIS discussions but it is representative how 
creative is the FIS society!
Many thanks to authors of the paper – more than three months we work on the 
paper!

Links:
IJ ITA Vol. 24:  http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita-fv24.htm
Direct link to the paper: http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita24-04-p01.pdf

Friendly greetings
Krassimir










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Arturo Tozzi

AA Professor Physics, University North Texas

Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy

Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba

http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ 







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[Fis] The polite and high scientific style of the posts to be published in an International Journal are OBLIGATED!

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Arturo,

1. You are not correct and not right!

If it is written as you have seen, it is just as it is!
Three times we kindly asked for permission but no answer.
It is possible that my letters were rejected automatically as spam.
What to do? Only what we could to do was to cite posts and to give links.

In addition, it is impossible to include long posts in a short paper. 
Because of this, they have to be shortened by author (preferred) or by the 
editor.

2. The main result from our work on the paper is clearly summarized in my  
final words in the paper.
No problems, if you could not read them.
My next post next week will remember it.

3. Finally, the paper in not stenographic protocol. 
Not every post is connected to the given theme and it is clear that it could 
not be taken in a short paper.
The theme of discussion for the paper usually is pointed in my “simple 
questions”.

If your posts will concern the discussed theme, please clearly point this.

4. In the next discussion which will start soon, everybody is kindly invited to 
take part and to be included in the future paper.

The polite and high scientific style of the posts to be published in an 
International Journal are OBLIGATED!

Friendly greetings
Krassimir






From: tozziart...@libero.it 
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2018 10:58 PM
To: Krassimir Markov ; fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] The FIS paper "Data versus Information " is published

Dear, prominent Authors,

You write in this paper: " Several posts are not included in the text below due 
to lack of permission from their authors".

I think that several post were not included in the text just because they were 
too critical against the loose, flabby concepts of information provided in this 
paper.  

Some contributions are very interesting, but others deserve the despising label 
of pseudoscience. 

On the other side, If you provide ELEVEN (more or less, I cannot be sure, I 
counted it, but I lost my attention after the Greeek Gods...) different 
definitions of information, how do you hope to be trusted? 


Forgive me to be honest, but FIS means also harsh discussion!  





  Il 18 febbraio 2018 alle 20.49 Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com> ha scritto:


  Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,

  I am glad to inform you that the paper which was created by a group of FIS 
members is ready.
  It is published with open access in the International Journal “Information 
Theories and Applications”, Volume 24, Number 4, pages 303-321.

  The title of the paper is “Data versus Information“.
  It contains a small part of FIS discussions but it is representative how 
creative is the FIS society!
  Many thanks to authors of the paper – more than three months we work on the 
paper!

  Links:
  IJ ITA Vol. 24:  http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita-fv24.htm
  Direct link to the paper: http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita24-04-p01.pdf

  Friendly greetings
  Krassimir






 

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Arturo Tozzi

AA Professor Physics, University North Texas

Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy

Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba

http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ 

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[Fis] The FIS paper "Data versus Information " is published

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,

I am glad to inform you that the paper which was created by a group of FIS 
members is ready.
It is published with open access in the International Journal “Information 
Theories and Applications”, Volume 24, Number 4, pages 303-321.

The title of the paper is “Data versus Information“.
It contains a small part of FIS discussions but it is representative how 
creative is the FIS society!
Many thanks to authors of the paper – more than three months we work on the 
paper!

Links:
IJ ITA Vol. 24:  http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita-fv24.htm
Direct link to the paper: http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita24-04-p01.pdf

Friendly greetings
Krassimir




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[Fis] there is no need to number every word

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Karl and FIS colleagues,
Yes, the Number Theory is very important basis!
But, I think, there is no need to number every word.
Because ... All words are already numbered  
We have published large monograph named
“Natural Language Addressing” 
where we outlined this idea and presented the mathematical model and computer 
implementation for very large volumes of data (BigData).
One can read it at http://foibg.com/ibs_isc/ibs-33/ibs-33.htm.
The idea is very simple – every letter has its own code and in the computer we 
enter not letters but their codes.
This way every word is a number in any positional numbering system.
It really works!!!
Friendly greetings
Krassimir







From: Karl Javorszky 
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 8:36 PM
To: Stanley N Salthe 
Cc: fis 
Subject: Re: [Fis] The unification of the theories of information based on the 
cateogry theory

Using the logical language to understand Nature



The discussion in this group refocuses on the meaning of the terms “symbol”, 
“signal”, “marker” and so forth. This is a very welcome development, because 
understanding the tools one uses is usually helpful when creating great works. 

There is sufficient professional literature on epistemology, logical languages 
and the development of philosophy into specific sub-philosophies. The following 
is just an unofficial opinion, maybe it helps. 



Wittgenstein has created a separate branch within philosophy by investigating 
the structure and the realm of true sentences. For this, he has been mocked and 
ridiculed by his colleagues. Adorno, e.g. said that Wittgenstein had 
misunderstood the job of a philosopher: to chisel away on the border that 
separates that what can be explained and that what is opaque; not to elaborate 
about how one can express truths that are anyway self-evident and cannot be 
otherwise. 

The Wittgenstein set of logical sentences are the rational explanation of the 
world. That, which we can communicate about, we only can communicate about, 
because both the words and what they mean are self-referencing. It is true that 
nothing ever new, hair-raising or surprising can come out of a logical 
discussion modi Wittgenstein, because every participant can only point out 
truths that are factually true, and these have always been true. There is no 
opportunity for discovery in rational thinking, only for an unveiling of that 
what could have been previously known: like an archaeologist can not be 
surprised about a finding, he can only be surprised about himself, how he had 
been able to ignore the possibility of the finding so long.

As the Wittgenstein collection uses only such concepts that are well-defined, 
these concepts can be easily enumerated. In effect, his results show, that if 
one uses well-formulated, clearly defined logical words, the collection of all 
explanations is the solution of a combinatorial problem. This is also the 
reason why he says that his philosophy is just a tool of sharpening the brain, 
and contains nothing whatsoever noteworthy in a semantic fashion.

One may summarise that the pariah state among philosophers that Wittgenstein 
suffered on this his insight, is owed to the conclusion that real philosophy 
has either nothing to do with the grammar of true logical sentences or 
otherwise it is degenerating into a technique outside philosophy, namely number 
theory. If every concept can be represented by a number, and valid sentence are 
those for which the rules that govern numbers are satisfied, then one can work 
with the numbers as such and figure out later for what they stand. 

This is the situation as per today. There is no change whatsoever. The only 
noteworthy development is, that one can indeed teach new tricks to that old 
dog, number theory. The sand that has to be swiped away is the covering layer 
of attitudes that are too clever by half. By keeping the nose not too high, one 
may look before one’s feet and reconsider simple operations that one executes 
by routine.

We know how to sort and how to order, and we are intelligent and flexible 
enough to change priorities if circumstances dictate such. We know how to order 
and how to reorder. If we only had a brain like a computer, we could memorise 
all the patterns that appear as we transform from priority readiness One into 
priority readiness Two. 

There are many opportunities for number theory to jump into action in the field 
of organising and reorganising. As one intensifies one’s hobby of reordering 
the contents of one’s office, one will now have arrived at the concept of 
sequenced groups of elements that change place together during a reorder. 
Cycles that constitute a reorder connect elements with each other. Learning is 
based on the concept of associations. Being an element in the corpus of a cycle 
may well be the formal explanation for a property of being associated with. 

Whether one calls the elements’ {position, amount, sequential place, relation 
to potential 

[Fis] mind-mind

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Alex and FIS Colleagues,

Thank you for the nice remark.

I had listen about such hypothesis but till now I had no participate in
any experiment of transferring ideas mind-mind. Maybe you had taken place
in such experiments. Please, give link to publications in scientific
issues about this very interesting phenomenon.

Simple question: If it is possible to transfer ideas mind-mind, why you
use FIS List to send your ideas to us?

Friendly greetings
Krassimir

PS: Unfortunately, this is my second post for this week and I please to
excuse me for answering the next posts after week.



From: Alex Hankey
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 12:21 PM
To: Krassimir Markov
Cc: FIS Webinar
Subject: Re: [Fis] About 10 Principles

RE: P1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.

M1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every
reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended reflections are
information.


ME: Ideas can be transmitted directly from Mind to Mind - as in Rupert
Sheldrake's 7th Sense Communication.
Lots of Quantitative Evidence that Materialists Prefer to Ignore.


The Experience Information model of the Cognitive States shows that such
Information States Are Not Material Entities.
They are based round instabilities in Networks of Neurons.


The ability to model Seventh Sense Communication means that this
phenomenon becomes one of
Four Separate Ways to Generate Empirical Evidence in support of them.


Hence Information is Not Matter or Energy.


This is but one example of how Principles 1 to 5 can be supported.



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[Fis] Simple question: What we really see in the mirror?

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear FIS Colleagues,

It is time for my second post this week.

First of all I am glad to participate in such very interesting discussion!

Thank you for the nice posts.

More than 25 years ago, working on the new theory, I had to solve the
problem with concept of entity which has information activity. There were
many candidates for such concept: “robot”, “agent”, “intelligent agent”,
“interpreter”, “subject”, “information subject”, “intelligent subject”,
etc. Every such concept had its own history and many domains of meanings
which caused many misunderstandings.
In the same time, if one had a single meaning then it couldn’t be applied
to all entities with information activity. For instance, concept “robot”
is not good to be used for a human.

Because of this, we had proposed a new word: “INFOS”, which had no meaning
in advance and may be defined freely without misunderstandings. I shall
use it in my further posts.

I do not want to define it now. Step by step its meaning will arise from
what I shall write. In many discussions till now, I had seen that this
approach is the best way to introduce a new concept.

***

I want specially to thank Bruno for his post from 18.10.2017 about
“Self-reference”!

For me, it is very important it to be analyzed. I shall do this on the
basis of an example.

Not all kinds of self-reference concern information activity and Infos.
But, if at least one case exists, then we have to analyze it.

Such case, for instance, is the Barber paradox: A barber (who is a man)
shaves all and only those men who do not shave themselves. Does he shave
himself?

This paradox exists only in “3D” mathematical world based on triad
 (x, y, f)
or, in other writings: (x, f, y), y=f(x), etc.
(there are several nice publications of Mark Burgin about triads !).

I.e. paradox exists only if we ignore the fact that the Barber is a human.

The paradox could not exist in the “4D” world of informatics where we have
quadruple (x, y, f, I) or, in other words, for Infos “I”, “y” is
information about “x” because of evidence “f”.

What is happen when the Barber shaves someone?

At the first place, it is a direct collecting, by eyes, the data about the
place where the razor has to be put to shave.

Have you ever seen a Blind barber?

NO! OK, this is a fundamental condition.

Not only Barber, but every human COULD NOT DIRECTLY COLLECT DATA about
his/her face, head, or back.

In another case, for instance, we have to have eye on the end of the nose
which has to be as long as the elephant trunk!

This means: the barber cannot shave himself because he could not see where
to put the razor!

But every man can shave his beard! How he can do it?
Of course, everyone will say, by using a mirror!

But this is NOT DIRECT REFLECTION (data collecting).
It is TRANSITIVE SELF-REFLECTION via mirror!

Who does the barber shave: himself or the man in the mirror?

Of course, the second!!! Barber puts the razor on his own beard and this
way he shaves the man in the mirror.

The Barber paradox does not exist if we take in account that the barber is
a human (a kind of Infos) and needs data.

So, the answer of the question “Does he shave himself?“ is NO!, he
doesn’t, he shaves the man in the mirror who do not shave himself because
the razor is in the hand of barber and no paradox exists.

Simple question: What we really see in the mirror?

Friendly greetings
Krassimir




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[Fis] Two simple questions with simple answers

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear FIS Colleagues,

We have two simple questions with simple answers.

The first was mine: What is “Agent”?

The second is from Jeremy Sherman:
"Can members remember a time when they experienced a fundamental shift in
their assumptions, methodology or questions through interactions on this
list?"

The answer to Jeremy is simple - I think, nobody can!

It is practically impossible to fix such moments. Such shift is result
from complex and longtime work. But in the same time, especially for me,
many small remarks I have done in the list helped me to improve my theory.
I am very thankful to all colleagues for this support!

To have friendly auditory where one may approbate his/her ideas is GREAT
CHANCE!!! I am happy to be part of FIS!

The question about concept “agent” was aimed to point that it is not good
for using in concrete information theory without special shortening of its
meaning. Let see, for instance, The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agent,
(© 2017 Merriam-Webster, Incorporated):

Definition of AGENT (First Known Use: 15th century):
1: one that acts or exerts power
2
a): something that produces or is capable of producing an effect :an
active or efficient cause
•   Education proved to be an agent of change in the community.
b): a chemically, physically, or biologically active principle
•   an oxidizing agent
3: a means or instrument by which a guiding intelligence achieves a result
4: one who is authorized to act for or in the place of another: such as
a): a representative, emissary, or official of a government
•   crown agent
•   federal agent
b): one engaged in undercover activities (such as espionage) :SPY
•   a secret agent
c): a business representative (as of an athlete or entertainer)
•   a theatrical agent
5: a computer application designed to automate certain tasks (such as
gathering information online)

I prefer to use more abstract concepts “Entity”, “Object”, and “Subject”.

Friendly greetings
Krassimir







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[Fis] I agree with your considerations.

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Yixin, Sung, Terry, Mark, and FIS Colleagues,

I agree with your considerations!

Let me remark that the General Information Theory is much more than a
single concept. You have seen that I have some answers in advance due to
already developed theory.

What is important now is to finish this step and after that to continue
with the next. It may be just the idea about meaning.

What we have till now is the understanding that the information is some
more than data. In other words:

d = r
i = r + e

where:

d => data;
i => information;
r = > reflection;
e => something Else, internal for the subject (interpreter, etc.).

I need a week to finish our common with you current publication and to
send it to co-authors for final editing and after that for reviewing.

Dear Sung, Terry, and Mark, if you agree and give me the permissions, I
shall include your considerations in the end of the paper in the point
"Future work" and shall include you in the co-authors of the paper.

My next (second) post will be at the end of week.

Thank you very much for your great effort!

Friendly greetings
Krassimir



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[Fis] Data - Reflection - Information

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear FIS Colleagues,

It is time for my second post this week.

Many thanks to Christophe Menant (for the profound question) and to all
colleagues (for the very nice and useful comments)!

**

Christophe Menant had written:
 “However, I'm not sure that “meaning” is enough to separate information
from data.  A basic flow of bits can be considered as meaningless data.
But the same flow can give a meaningful sentence once correctly
demodulated.
I would say that:
1) The meaning of a signal does not exist per se. It is agent dependent.
 - A signal can be meaningful information created by an agent (human
voice, ant pheromone).
 - A signal can be meaningless (thunderstorm noise).
 - A meaning can be generated by an agent receiving the signal
(interpretation/meaning generation).
2) A given signal can generate different meanings when received by
different agents (a thunderstorm noise generates different meanings for
someone walking on the beach or for a person in a house).
3) The domain of efficiency of the meaning should be taken into account
(human beings, ant-hill).
Regarding your positioning of data, I'm not sure to understand your
"reflections without meaning".
Could you tell a bit more?“

Before answering, I need to make a little analysis of posts this week
connected to my question about data and information. For this goal, below
I shall remember shortly main ideas presented this week.

Citations:

Stanley N Salthe:
 “The simple answer to your question about data is to note the word's
derivation from Latin Datum, which can be compared with Factum.”

Y. X. Zhong:
“It is not difficult to accept that there are two concepts of information,
related and also different to each other. The first one is the information
presented by the objects existed in environment before the subject's
perceiving and the second one is the information perceived and understood
by the subject. The first one can be termed the object information and the
second one the perceived information. The latter is perceived by the
subject from the former.
The object information is just the object's "state of the object and the
pattern with which the state varies". No meaning and no utility at the
stage.
The perceived information is the information, perceive by the subject from
the object information. So, it should have the form component of the
object (syntactic information), the meaning component of the object
(semantic information), and the utility component of the object with
respect to the subject's goal (pragmatic information). Only at this stage,
the "meaning" comes out.”

Karl Javorszky:
“Data is that what we see by using the eyes. Information is that what we
do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the brain; because it is
the background to that what we see by using the eyes.
Data are the foreground, the text, which are put into a context by the
information, which is the background. In Wittgenstein terms: Sachverhalt
and Zusammenhang (which I translate – unofficially – as facts /data/ and
context /relationships/)”.


Dai Griffiths:
“I'm curious about your use of the word 'dualistic'. Dualism usually
suggests that there are two aspects to a single phenomenon. As I interpret
your post, you are saying that information and meaning are separate
concepts. Otherwise, we are led to inquire into the nature of the unity of
which they are both aspects, which gets us back where we started.
So I interpret 'dualistic' here to mean 'two concepts that are intertwined
in the emergence of events'. Is this parallel to, for example, atomic
structure and fluid dynamics (perhaps there are better examples)? If so,
does that imply a hierarchy (i.e. you can have information without
meaning, but not meaning without information)? This makes sense to me,
though it is not what I usually associate with the word 'dualistic'.”

Guy A Hoelzer:
“If you start by explicitly stating that you are using the semantic notion
of information at the start, I would agree whole heartedly with your post.
I claim that physical information is general, while semantic information
is merely a subset of physical information.  Semantic information is
composed of kinds of physical contrasts to which symbolic meaning has been
attached.  Meaningfulness cannot exist in the absence of physical
contrast, but physical information can exist independently of sensation,
perception, cognition, and contextual theory.”

Jose Javier Blanco Rivero:
“What is information at some stage of the process becomes data on other.”

Loet Leydesdorff:
"Data" is "given" or "revealed" by God.
The search for an intuitive definition of information has led to unclear
definitions. In a recent book, Hidalgo (2015, at p. 165), for example, has
defined “information” with reference “to the order embodied in codified
sequences, such as those found in music or DNA, while knowledge and
knowhow refer to the ability of a system to process information.” However,
codified knowledge can be 

[Fis] If "data = information", why we need both concepts?

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear John and FIS Colleagues,

I am Computer Science specialist and I never take data to be information.

For not specialists maybe it is normal "data to be often taken to be
information" but this is not scientific reasoning.

Simple question: if "data = information", why we need both concepts?


Friendly greetings

Krassimir


Dear list,


As Floridi points out in his Information. Oxford: Oxford University Press,
2010. A volume for the Very Short Introduction series. data is often taken
to be information. If so, then the below distinction is somewhat
arbitrary. It may be useful or not. I think that for some circumstances it
is useful, but for others it is misleading, especially if we are trying to
come to grips with what meaning is. I am not sure there is ever data
without interpretation (it seems to me that it is always assumed to be
about something). There are, however, various degrees and depths of
interpretation, and we may have data at a more abstract level that is
interpreted as meaning something less abstract, such as pointer readings
of a barometer and air pressure. The pointer readings are signs of air
pressure. Following C.S. Peirce, all signs have an interpretant. We can
ignore this (abstraction) and deal with just pointer readings of a
particular design of gauge, and take this to be the data, but even the
pointer readings have an important contextual element, being of a
particular kind of gauge, and that also determines an interpretant. Just
pointer readings alone are not data, they are merely numbers (which also,
of course, have an interpretant that is even more abstract.

So I think the data/information distinction needs to be made clear in each
case, if it is to be used.

Note that I believe that there is information that is independent of mind,
but the above points still hold once we start into issues of observation.
My belief is based on an explanatory inference that must be tested (and
also be useful in this context). I believe that the idea of mind
independent information has been tested, and is useful, but I am not going
to go into that further here.


Regards,

John

PS, please note that my university email was inadvertently wiped out, so I
am currently using the above email, also the alias coll...@ncf.ca If
anyone has wondered why their mail to me has been returned, this is why.




On 2017/09/30 11:20 AM, Krassimir Markov wrote:

Dear Christophe and FIS Colleagues,

I agree with idea of meaning.

The only what I would to add is the next:

There are two types of reflections:

1. Reflections without meaning called DATA;

2. Reflections with meaning called INFORMATION.

Friendly greetings
Krassimir


----------
Krassimir Markov
Director
ITHEA Institute of Information Theories and Applications
Sofia, Bulgaria
presid...@ithea.org
www.ithea.org





Dear FISers,


A hot discussion indeed...
We can all agree that perspectives on information depend on the context.
Physics, mathematics, thermodynamics, biology, psychology, philosophy, AI,
...

But these many contexts have a common backbone: They are part of the
evolution of our universe and of its understanding, part of its increasing
complexity from the Big Bang to us humans.
And taking evolution as a reading grid allows to begin with the simple.
As proposed in a previous post, we care about information ONLY because it
can be meaningful.  Take away the concept of meaning, the one of
information has no reason of existing.
And our great discussions would just not exist. 
Now, Evolution + Meaning => Evolution of meaning. As already highlighted
this looks to me as important in principles of IS.
As you may remember that there is a presentation on that subject
(http://www.mdpi.com/2504-3900/1/3/211,
https://philpapers.org/rec/MENICA-2)
The evolution of the universe is a great subject where the big questions
are with the transitions: energy=> matter => life => self-consciousness =>
...
And I feel that one way to address these transitions is with local
constraints as sources of meaning generation.
Best

Christophe



De : Fis <fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es> de la part de
tozziart...@libero.it <tozziart...@libero.it>
Envoyé : vendredi 29 septembre 2017 14:01
À : fis
Objet : Re: [Fis] Principles of IS

Dear FISers,
Hi!
...a very hot discussion...
I think that it is not useful to talk about Aristotle, Plato and Ortega y
Gasset, it the modern context of information... their phylosophical, not
scientific approach, although marvelous, does not provide insights in a
purely scientific issue such the information we are talking about...

Once and forever, it must be clear that information is a physical quantity.
Please read (it is not a paper of mine!):
Street S.  2016.  Neurobiology as information physics.  Frontiers in
Systems neuroscience.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5108784/

In sho

Re: [Fis] TR: Principles of IS

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Christophe and FIS Colleagues,

I agree with idea of meaning.

The only what I would to add is the next:

There are two types of reflections:

1. Reflections without meaning called DATA;

2. Reflections with meaning called INFORMATION.

Friendly greetings
Krassimir


--
Krassimir Markov
Director
ITHEA Institute of Information Theories and Applications
Sofia, Bulgaria
presid...@ithea.org
www.ithea.org





Dear FISers,


A hot discussion indeed...
We can all agree that perspectives on information depend on the context.
Physics, mathematics, thermodynamics, biology, psychology, philosophy, AI,
...

But these many contexts have a common backbone: They are part of the
evolution of our universe and of its understanding, part of its increasing
complexity from the Big Bang to us humans.
And taking evolution as a reading grid allows to begin with the simple.
As proposed in a previous post, we care about information ONLY because it
can be meaningful.  Take away the concept of meaning, the one of
information has no reason of existing.
And our great discussions would just not exist. 
Now, Evolution + Meaning => Evolution of meaning. As already highlighted
this looks to me as important in principles of IS.
As you may remember that there is a presentation on that subject
(http://www.mdpi.com/2504-3900/1/3/211, 
https://philpapers.org/rec/MENICA-2)
The evolution of the universe is a great subject where the big questions
are with the transitions: energy=> matter => life => self-consciousness =>
...
And I feel that one way to address these transitions is with local
constraints as sources of meaning generation.
Best

Christophe



De : Fis <fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es> de la part de
tozziart...@libero.it <tozziart...@libero.it>
Envoyé : vendredi 29 septembre 2017 14:01
À : fis
Objet : Re: [Fis] Principles of IS

Dear FISers,
Hi!
...a very hot discussion...
I think that it is not useful to talk about Aristotle, Plato and Ortega y
Gasset, it the modern context of information... their phylosophical, not
scientific approach, although marvelous, does not provide insights in a
purely scientific issue such the information we are talking about...

Once and forever, it must be clear that information is a physical quantity.
Please read (it is not a paper of mine!):
Street S.  2016.  Neurobiology as information physics.  Frontiers in
Systems neuroscience.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5108784/

In short, Street shows how information can be clearly defined in terms of
Bekenstein entropy!

Sorry,
and BW...


Arturo Tozzi

AA Professor Physics, University North Texas

Pediatrician ASL Na2­Nord, Italy

Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba

http://arturotozzi.w­ebnode.it/


--
Inviato da Libero Mail per Android

venerdì, 29 settembre 2017, 01:31PM +02:00 da Rafael Capurro
raf...@capurro.de:


Dear Pedro,

thanks for food for thought. When talking about communication we should
not forget that Wiener defines cybernetics as "the theory of messages"
(not: as the theory of information) (Human use of human beings, London
1989, p. 15, p. 77 "cybernetics, or the theory of messages" et passim)
Even for Shannon uses the (undefined) concept of message 'as' what is
transmitted (which is not information) is of paramount importance. And so
also at the level of cell-cell communication.

The code or the difference message/messenger is, I think, a key for
interpreting biological processes. In this sense, message/messanger are
'archai' (in the Aristotelian) sense for different sciences (no
reductionism if we want to focus on the differences between the
phenomena). 'Archai' are NOT 'general concepts' (as you suggest) but
originating forces that underline the phenomena in their manifestations
'as' this or that.

From this perspective, information (following Luhmann) is the process of
interpretation taking place at the receiver. When a cell, excuse me these
thoughts from a non-biologist, receives a message transmitted by a
messenger, then the main issue is from the perspective of the cell, to
interpret this message (with a special address or 'form' supposed to
'in-form' the cell) 'as' being relevant for it. Suppose this
interpretation is wrong in the sense that the message causes death (to the
cell or the whole organism), then the re-cognition system (its immune
system also) of the cell fails. Biological fake news, so to speak, with
mortal consequences due to failures in the communication.

best

Rafael

Dear FISers,

I also agree with Ji and John Torday about the tight relationship between
information and communication. Actually Principle 5 was stating :
"Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie
the complexity of biological organizations at all scales." However, let me
suggest that we do not enter immediately in the discussion

Re: [Fis] PRINCIPLES OF IS

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,

I agree with you that:

“Nevertheless,  the three blocks (info per se, bioinfo, ecology of
knowledge) seem to allow some fertile conjugation inside/outside... but
the problem remains...”

I think, these blocks are the three main categories of IS – “Information”,
“Information Subject”, and “Information Interaction”.

Further we may discuss the details, but, I hope, we may try to accept
these categories as very beginning foundation.

Friendly greetings
Krassimir




Krassimir Markov
Director
ITHEA Institute of Information Theories and Applications
PO Box 775, Sofia 1000, Bulgaria
presid...@ithea.org
www.ithea.org




From: Pedro C. Marijuan
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 3:20 PM
To: 'fis'
Subject: Re: [Fis] Fwd: PRINCIPLES OF IS

Dear FISers,

Taking seriously the idea of information principles, quite probably
demands a specific discussion on principles. Why do we need "principles"
at all? Because of our cognitive limitations. An infinite intellect would
traverse all spans of knowledge without any discontinuity--presumably. In
our collective scientific enterprise, however, we create special
disciplines in order to share understandable discourses between the
limited individuals of each thought-collective. As knowledge accumulates
and gets more and more complex, particularly in the encounter with other
discourses, the growing epistemic distances fragment the original
discipline, and a new subdiscipline becomes necessary. It starts then a
fresh new discourse, with its own principles. In my brief mention of
Ortega, what he accuses Leibnitz is that being the champion of principles
in science, he becomes fragmentary and asystematic in his
meta-scientific/philosophical "mode of thinking": the hypersystematic
expresses himself fragmentarily (Ortega dixit). It is curious that along
the survey of principles in Ortega's book, the most frequent interlocutor
is not Leibnitz, but Aristotle! Although Husserl, Heidegger, Descartes,
Pappus, Plato, Suarez, Spinoza... and some others big names also appear,
his main concern (to my taste) is discussing Aristotle's view of
specialized disciplines starting from their respective principles,
empirically-sensuously obtained and "uncommunicated" in between the
different fields. It is very intriguing.

If the principles of different disciplines are factually uncommunicated, 
the info science view of a new body of knowledge running across all scales
is caught into a difficult "principled" position. Nevertheless,  the three
blocks I distinguished (info per se, bioinfo, ecology of knowledge) seem
to allow some fertile conjugation inside/outside... but the problem
remains. I think it is solvable, as in our times there is a central
element that allows a whole new scientific discourse on information. The
dense relationship between life and information has nowadays acquired a
formidable empirical  background, leveraged by the most basic
disciplines--physics, chemistry, computer science, and biology itself.


More concretely, the notion of the "information flow" can almost be
sketched properly, both in its signaling textures and in the fundamental
relationship with the life cycle--and not very differently along the
evolutionary process. Thereafter, recombination appears as one of the
fundamental emergences in the growing complexity of the evolving
information dynamics around life cycles and information/energy flows. The
recombination phenomenon happens for the knowledge-stocks of cells,
nervous systems, enterprises, sciences-technologies-cultures... It
accumulates amazing combinatoric, topological, dynamic, and closure
properties in the different realms, flowing up and down among scales,
multidimensionally, and maintaining afloa the whole game of adaptive
existences.

Our disciplines may apparently work by themselves, autonomously, but
actually they do not. Rather than "on top", they work "on tap". They
endlessly recombine in the ecology of knowledge, differently for each
problem and for each occasion, creating new theoretical and applied
subdisciplines in the thousands. Information science has to shed light on
that fundamental factor of contemporary societies. And more
"psychologically" this discipline has to put LIFE, both individual life
and social life, at the very center of the sharing of meaning. A new way
of thinking starting from specific information principles will liberate
our limited intellects to more creative endeavors. It is time to quote
Whitehead: "Civilization advances by extending the number of important
operations which we can perform without thinking about them. Operations of
thought are like cavalry charges in a battle —they are strictly limited in
number, they require fresh horses, and must only be made at decisive
moments."


Best wishes--Pedro


El 20/09/2017 a las 17:46, Michel Godron escribió:

My 

[Fis] INFORMATION: A RECOGNIZED STATE OF MATTER

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro, Arturo, Michel, and FIS Colleagues,

First of all, friendly greetings to everybody for the new FIS Season!
It is nice to meet all of you again in the FIS List  – alive and, I hope,
healthy as it is possible!

Energy and the Matter ARE ONE AND THE SAME!
Let remember the Great Albert's formula:

E=m*C*C

which means that the Energy and the Matter are two sides of one coin.

What about the information?
Why Einstein did not mentioned it in his theories?

The answer is simple – the information is a kind of material reflection
and could not be separated from the matter.

Of course, if one believes in God, it could, but we already have discussed
this ...

Because of this, the First principle is not good!
I do not agree, that: 1. Information is information, neither matter nor
energy.

Information is a state of matter which may be recognized by the (live)
subject.

Let see two examples:

CASE 1: About the relativity of concepts and importance to have common
understanding at least of the main concepts

Once upon the time, a man entered in a restaurant and asked the waiter:
- Please, give me a portion of fried information, processed following the
algorithm of John Montagu.
- OK, Sir! What kind of information you prefer – primary or secondary? –
answered the waiter.
- Secondary, please!
- Sir, can you make more clear what you mean when say “secondary”? The
problem is that nobody knows what information is primary and what –
secondary, and we always have difficulties.
-  I don’t know!  Give me both...
What the man received ?

CASE 2: The information is NOT mathematical concept

2x+2x=5x
Is it true?

ANSWERS:

CASE 1:

John Montagu had been the 4th Earl of Sandwich.
The man received a sandwich with fried egg and one with fried chicken.


CASE 2:

YES!

Please see the scheme below – two rectangles + two rectangles = five
recognized rectangles!


  -
- -   |   |   |
|   |   |+|   |   |   =   +
- -   |   |   |
  -




At the end, let me inform you about one our paper published in the
International Journal INFORMATION THEORIES & APPLICATIONS, VOLUME 24,
NUMBER 2, 2017; pages 103-114:

Comparison Software Systems Based on Information Quality Measuring
http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita24-02-p01.pdf

In this paper we outlined how GIT can be used for solving practical problems.
And, maybe, in it, one may find the basis of my words above...

Respectfully yours
Krassimir






From: tozziart...@libero.it
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 4:16 PM
To: Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: [Fis] INFORMATION: JUST A MATTER OF MATH

Dear FISers,
I'm sorry for bothering you,
but I start not to agree from the very first principles.

The only language able to describe and quantify scientific issues is
mathematics.
Without math, you do not have observables, and information is observable.
Therefore, information IS energy or matter, and can be examined through
entropies (such as., e.g., the Bekenstein-Hawking one).

And, please, colleagues, do not start to write that information is
subjective and it depends on the observer's mind. This issue has been
already tackled by the math of physics: science already predicts that
information can be "subjective", in the MATHEMATICAL frameworks of both
relativity and quantum dynamics' Copenhagen interpretation.
Therefore, the subjectivity of information is clearly framed in a TOTALLY
physical context of matter and energy.

Sorry for my polemic ideas, but, if you continue to define information on
the basis of qualitative (and not quantitative) science, information
becomes metaphysics, or sociology, or psychology (i.e., branches with
doubtful possibility of achieving knowledge, due to their current lack of
math).




Arturo Tozzi

AA Professor Physics, University North Texas

Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy

Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba

http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/





Messaggio originale
Da: "Pedro C. Marijuan" 
Data: 15/09/2017 14.13
A: "fis"
Ogg: [Fis] PRINCIPLES OF IS

Dear FIS Colleagues,

As promised herewith the "10 principles of information science". A couple
of previous comments may be in order.
First, what is in general the role of principles in science? I was
motivated by the unfinished work of philosopher Ortega y Gasset, "The idea
of principle in Leibniz and the evolution of deductive theory"
(posthumously published in 1958). Our tentative information science seems
to be very different from other sciences, rather multifarious in
appearance and concepts, and cavalierly moving from scale to scale. What
could be the specific role of principles herein? Rather than opening
homogeneous realms for conceptual development, these information
principles would appear as a sort of "portals" that connect with essential
topics of other disciplines in the 

[Fis] Can the can drink beer ?

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Brian, Arturo, Karl, Alex, Lars-Goran, Gyuri, and FIS colleagues,

Thank you for your remarks!

What is important is that every theory has its own understanding of the 
concepts it uses.
For “foreigners”, theirs meaning may be strange or unknown.
Some times, concepts of one theory contradict to corresponded concepts from 
other theory.

For years, I have met many different definitions of concept “information” and 
many more kinds of its use.
>From materialistic up to weird point of view...

To clear my own understanding, I shall give you a simple example:

CAN THE CAN DRINK BEER ?

CAN THE CAN EXCHANGE BEER WITH THE GLASS ?

The can is used by humans for some goals, for instance to store some beer for a 
given period.
But the can itself “could not understand” its own functions and what the can 
can do with beer it contains.
All its functionality is a human’s  consciousness model.
Can cannot exchange beer with the glass if there are no human activity or 
activity of additional devices invented by humans to support this.

Further:

CAN THE ARTIFICIAL LEG WALK  ?
You know the answer ... Human with an artificial leg can walk ...
All functionality of artificial leg is a result from human’s  consciousness 
modeling and invention. 

In addition:

IS THE “PHYSICAL INFORMATION” INFORMATION ?
If it is, the first question is how to measure the quantity and quality of such 
“information” and who can do this?  
I prefer the answer “NO” – “physical information” is a concept which means 
something else but not “information” as it is in my understanding.
>From my point of view, “physical information” is a kind of reflection (see 
>“Theory of reflections” of T.Pavlov). 
Every reflection may be assumed as information iff (if and only if) there exist 
a subjective information expectation to be resolved by given reflection.
For physical information this low is not satisfied. Because of this, I prefer 
to call this phenomenon simply “a reflection”. 

And so on ...


Finally:

Human been invented too much kinds of prostheses including ones for our 
intellectual functionalities, i.e. many different kinds of electronic devices 
which, in particular, can generate some electrical, light, etc. impulses, which 
we assume as “information”; usually a combination of impulses we assume as s 
structure to be recognized by us as “information”.  

A special kind of prostheses are Robots. They have some autonomous 
functionalities but are still very far from living consciousness. The level of 
complexity of robot’s consciousness is far of human’s one. Someone may say that 
robots understand and exchange “information”, but still they only react on 
incoming signals following the instructions given by humans. Theirs functioning 
is similar to human ones but only similar. They may recognize some structures 
of signals and exchange such ones with other robots or living creatures. Maybe 
someone wants to call this “information exchange”, but, after Shannon, I call 
this “sending and/or receiving signals”. And automatic reaction to signals. 

One may say, the Robot (Computer) memory  contains information but really it 
does not contain anything – it has its own structure which can be changed 
temporally of permanently by external electrical impulses.
Is the human memory the same – a structure which can be changed temporally of 
permanently by external or internal signals? I think – yes, It is!
What is the difference? Why we may say that the living creatures process 
information but not living couldn’t? 
The answer is: because the living creatures may create and resolve the 
“information expectation” with very high level of complexity. 
Maybe in the future robots will can do it ...
Such robot I call “INFOS”. It will be artificial living creature. Possibly with 
some biological elements.   

It will be very interesting and amazing to see how the can can drink beer :-) 
And very dangerous – where the beer will be kept if the can can drink it?

I hope, now it is clear why I assert that (now!) non-living objects COULD NOT 
“exchange information”.

Friendly regards
Krassimir



  


From: Karl Javorszky 
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 8:24 PM
To: Alex Hankey 
Cc: Krassimir Markov ; Arturo Tozzi ; FIS Webinar 
Subject: Re: [Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information”

1) Let me second to the point Alex raises:

machines, computers, do exchange information. It would be against cultural 
conventions to say that the notification that the refrigerator sends to your 
phone's app "to-do-list" of the content "milk only 0.5 liter available" is not 
an information.


The signals my car's pressure sensor sends to my dashboard, saying "tire 
pressure front right wheel is critically low" is a clear case of information, 
whether I read it or not.


2) Let me add to the point Alex states, namely that the "form of information 
that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only scientifically 
based,mathematic

[Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information”

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Arturo and FIS Colleagues,
Let me remember that:
The basic misunderstanding that non-living objects could “exchange  
information” leads to many principal theoretical as well as psychological 
faults.   
For instance, photon could exchange only energy and/or reflections !
Sorry for this n-th my remark ... 
Friendly greetings
Krassimir




From: tozziart...@libero.it 
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 4:52 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: [Fis] I: Re: Is information truly important?




  Dear  Lars-Göran, 
  I prefer to use asap my second FIS bullet, therefore it will be my last FIS 
mail for the next days. 


  First of all, in special relativity, an observer is NOT by definition a 
material object that can receive and store incoming energy from other objects.  

  In special relativity, an observer is a frame of reference from which a set 
of objects or events are being measured.  Speaking of an observer is not 
specifically hypothesizing an individual person who is experiencing events, but 
rather it is a particular mathematical context which objects and events are to 
be evaluated from. The effects of special relativity occur whether or not there 
is a "material object that can recieve and store incoming energy from other 
objects" within the inertial reference frame to witness them.

  Furthermore, take a photon (traveling at speed light) that crosses a cosmic 
zone close to the sun.  The photon "detects" (and therefore can interact with) 
a huge sun surface (because of its high speed), while we humans on the Earth 
"detect" (and can interact with) a much smaller sun surface. 
  Therefore, the photon may exchange more information with the sun than the 
humans on the Earth: both the photon and the humans interact with the same sun, 
but they "detect" different surfaces, and therefore they may exchange with the 
sun a different information content.  
  If we also take into account that the photon detects an almost infinite, 
fixed time, this means once again that it can exchange much more information 
with the sun than we humans can.
   

  In sum, once again, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, 
rather just a very subjective measure, depending on the speed and of the time 
of the "observer".   

   

  Arturo Tozzi

  AA Professor Physics, University North Texas

  Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy

  Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba

  http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ 





Messaggio originale
Da: "Lars-Göran Johansson" 
Data: 24/03/2017 14.50
A: "tozziart...@libero.it"
Ogg: Re: [Fis] Is information truly important?



  24 mars 2017 kl. 13:15 skrev tozziart...@libero.it:

  Dear Fisers, 
  a big doubt...

  We know that the information of a 3D black hole is proportional to its 2D 
horizon, according to the Bekenstein-Hawking equations.

  However, an hypotetical observer traveling at light speed (who watches a 
black hole at rest) detects a very large black hole horizon, due to Einstein's 
equations.
  Therefore, he detects more information from the black hole than an 
observer at rest, who sees a smaller horizon…
An observer is by definition a material object that can recieve and store 
incoming energy from other objects. Since it requires infinite energy  to 
accelerate even a slighest object to the velocity of light, no observer can 
travel at the speed of light. That means that your thought experiment is based 
in inconsistent assumptions and no vaild conclusions from them can be drawn. 
Lars-Göran Johansson



  In sum, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather just 
a very subjective measure...


  Arturo Tozzi

  AA Professor Physics, University North Texas

  Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy

  Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba

  http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ 



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Lars-Göran Johansson
lars-goran.johans...@filosofi.uu.se
0701-679178















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[Fis] Information Black Holes !!!

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,

First of all I wish you Happy and Very Successful New Year !

Let it will be peaceful and healthy for us and our families, for all our
friends all over the world !

Second - I am not specialist in physics - because of this I trust that in
CERN there exist such specialists and they really understand what they are
doing and the Chernobyl tragedy will not be repeated.
But who knows – political and military interests already many times
overbear the scientific wisdom ...

Third –  figuratively we may think about “information black holes” which
already have worked in our world.
Who may control theirs explosions ?
And who may stop concentrating the information in such “information black
holes”?

Everybody can imagine at least one.

But a few of us can imagine the destructive effect of theirs existence
especially for the young people.

Do we need such “information black holes” when we may access every
information object directly at the original web site all over the world ?


Friendly greetings
Krassimir



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Re: [Fis] What is life?

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Arturo,
Your mobile is NOT able to transmit and utilize INFORMATION but some
signals!!!
As well as the artificial limb walk with its owner but it is not a living
mater.
Firstly, we have to understand what is information!
After that ...
Friendly regards
Krassimir




From: tozziart...@libero.it
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2016 8:11 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: [Fis] What is life?


Dear


You write: "For living beings, we know that "Life is a tramission and
utilistion of information (not only by ADN, but by all the information
which is used by them, at all scales for survival)".
However, to make an example, also my mobile is able to transmit and
utilize information.

I found (and I did not look very well, to be honest) at least EIGHT
different definitions of life in literature.

Therefore, if I ask: "What is life?" I have, apart from yours, other SEVEN
different definitions of life.

What does it mean? This means that we have no idea at all about what is life.

It is the same as if I asked: "What is love?": who knows?



Arturo Tozzi

AA Professor Physics, University North Texas

Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy

Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba

http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/







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[Fis] Let analyse: A TOPOLOGICAL/ECOLOGICAL APPROACH TO PERCEPTION

[Krassimir Markov]

 and biological functions are 
trajectories moving on concave structures towards lesser energetic levels, as 
suggested by, e.g., Fokker-Planck equations, it does not matter: you may always 
find the antipodal points with matching description predicted by BUT.  

  Ciao!

  --
  Inviato da Libero Mail per Android

  sabato, 26 novembre 2016, 06:23PM +01:00 da Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com:


Dear FIS colleagues,

I think, it is needed to put discussion on mathematical foundation. Let me 
remember that:



The Borsuk–Ulam theorem (BUT), states that every continuous function from 
an n-sphere into Euclidean n-space maps some pair of antipodal points to the 
same point. 

Here, two points on a sphere are called antipodal if they are in exactly 
opposite directions from the sphere's center.

Formally: if f : S n → R n  is continuous then there exists an x ∈ S n such 
that: f ( − x ) = f ( x ).

[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borsuk%E2%80%93Ulam_theorem ] 



Who may proof that consciousness is a  continuous function from reflected 
reality ???

Who may proof that consciousness is an Euclidean n-space ???

After proving these statements we may think further.



Yes, discussion is interesting but, I am afraid, it is not so scientific.



Friendly regards

Krassimir








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[Fis] Who may proof that consciousness is an Euclidean n-space ???

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear FIS colleagues,

I think, it is needed to put discussion on mathematical foundation. Let me 
remember that:



The Borsuk–Ulam theorem (BUT), states that every continuous function from an 
n-sphere into Euclidean n-space maps some pair of antipodal points to the same 
point. 

Here, two points on a sphere are called antipodal if they are in exactly 
opposite directions from the sphere's center.

Formally: if f : S n → R n  is continuous then there exists an x ∈ S n  such 
that: f ( − x ) = f ( x ).

[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borsuk%E2%80%93Ulam_theorem ] 



Who may proof that consciousness is a  continuous function from reflected 
reality ???

Who may proof that consciousness is an Euclidean n-space ???

After proving these statements we may think further.



Yes, discussion is interesting but, I am afraid, it is not so scientific.



Friendly regards

Krassimir







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[Fis] Decision of FIS Steering Committee

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Marcus and FIS Colleagues,

I am writing this letter on behalf of FIS Steering Committee .

During the past weeks we had an extraordinary situation in our mailing list 
caused by some not so polite expressions.

As we have seen, Marcus was  hurt by a disparaging remarks in the review of his 
paper. 
It is understandable and we want to express our apologies to Marcus.
In the same time, we expect the same about very strong words in the Marcus' 
letter.

The decision of FIS Steering Committee is to permit Marcus to continue 
participation in our common work.

We want to express a strong requirement, letters and other kinds of FIS 
communications to be in thoughtful scientific manner without personal insults.
If a rude letter will be send, its author has to be removed from FIS list.

Friendly regards
Krassimir 
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[Fis] Progress on black hole information paradox

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Francesco,
Thank you for the polite words!
In addition to your explanation, I have to point that, from mine point of view, 
we have principally and opposite understandings of the concept information.
Your position is that the information is primary and matter and energy are 
secondary, i.e. information created both of them.
My understanding is that the information is a kind of reflection in the 
material entities but not every reflection is information.
The “reflection” is internal structural of functional difference which has been 
created after an interaction between entities.
Only living creatures may operate with reflections in their consciousness.
In other words, the “information” is a reflection in the consciousness for 
which in the same consciousness there exist evidence what the refection 
reflects. 
Friendly regards
Krassimir

PS: This is my second post for this week. 
Next half month I will spend on Summer Session of ITHEA International 
Conferences (http://www.ithea.org/conferences/itaf2016.htm).
Because of this I shall be silent till middle of July.
Have nice and happy summer!

From: Francesco Rizzo 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 8:29 PM
To: Krassimir Markov 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Progress on black hole information paradox

Cari John, Krassimir e Tutti, 
informazione è un infinito o molteplice modo di prendere forma (neg-entropia), 
dis-informazione è un infinito o molteplice modo di perdere forma (entropia). 
Con il mio processo di tras-in-formazione, cuore della "Nuova economia", 
consistente nell'immissione (input) di materia, energia e informazione e 
nell'emissione (output) di materia, energia e informazione in stati diversi, ho 
capito 20 anni prima di S. Hawking, pur essendo un economista, che la sua 
teoria non funzionava. Lui è arrivato alle mie, modeste, stesse conclusioni nel 
2004-2005. Inoltre energia e materia non sono altro che due tipi di 
informazione, quindi l'unica o fondamentale legge dell vita e della scienza è 
l'INFORMAZIONE. Questo ora stanno incominciando a conoscerlo od ammetterlo 
tanti, ma io l'ho sempre pensato, scritto e proposto agli economisti che sono 
spesso duri di cervice come l'apostolo Pietro. Non mi dilungo ad esporre i 
dettagli o particolari di questa problematica contenuti almeno in una dozzina 
di miei libri, a proposito soprattutto dell'indeterminazione quantistica e 
dell'indeterminazione gravitazionale.
Ad onor del vero sono stato stimolato a trasmettere questa e-mail molto, 
troppo, sintetica dal problema the black-hole-infromation-paradox presentato e 
suggerito in modo magnifico da John Collier e dalla domanda di Krassimir 
Markov, altrettanto notevole, "qualcuno, lui/lei non  immagina cosa sia 
informazione". Mille grazie a tutti e due e a a tutti Voi che sopportate il mio 
(essere) italiano.
Un abbraccio veramente affettuoso e riconoscente.
Francesco

2016-06-28 19:00 GMT+02:00 Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com>:

  Dear John and FIS Colleagues,
  The main paradox of the “black hole information paradox” is that maybe 
someone knows what is the “black hole” but in the same time he/she has no 
imagination what is “information”.
  Friendly regards
  Krassimir 






  From: John Collier 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 2:01 PM
  To: fis 
  Subject: [Fis] Progress on black hole information paradox

  Not solved yet, as method applies only EM radiation, and not to gravity 
(where the real problem lies in any case). 



  I note that the problem can be stated properly only by using information 
theory (or something that is equivalent – same models).



  
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2016/jun/08/soft-hairs-help-resolve-the-black-hole-information-paradox



  John Collier

  Professor Emeritus and Senior Research Associate

  University of KwaZulu-Natal

  http://web.ncf.ca/collier




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Re: [Fis] Progress on black hole information paradox

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear John and FIS Colleagues,
The main paradox of the “black hole information paradox” is that maybe someone 
knows what is the “black hole” but in the same time he/she has no imagination 
what is “information”.
Friendly regards
Krassimir 






From: John Collier 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 2:01 PM
To: fis 
Subject: [Fis] Progress on black hole information paradox

Not solved yet, as method applies only EM radiation, and not to gravity (where 
the real problem lies in any case). 

 

I note that the problem can be stated properly only by using information theory 
(or something that is equivalent – same models).

 

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2016/jun/08/soft-hairs-help-resolve-the-black-hole-information-paradox

 

John Collier

Professor Emeritus and Senior Research Associate

University of KwaZulu-Natal

http://web.ncf.ca/collier

 




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Re: [Fis] "A Priori" Modeling of Information

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Marcus and FIS Colleagues,
Thank you very much for your great effort to develop useful knowledge about 
information phenomena.
For me, the FIS discussions are very interesting.
Unfortunately, I have no time to participate actively due to preparing ITHEA 
Int. Conferences, and especially, the GIT Int. Conference this year in July in 
Varna, Bulgaria..
After July 15, I shall be able to take part in this discussion if it still will 
be available.
I have many remarks and considerations which I want to share with you.
Friendly regards
Krassimir



From: Marcus Abundis 
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:53 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: [Fis] "A Priori" Modeling of Information

Thank you Pedro, and of course, thank you very much for your enduring efforts 
in moderating this site . . . 

Greetings to all,

This session covers the a priori modeling of information. It targets a 
“meaningful void” named by Shannon and Weaver (1949). As such, it seeks to 
frame a “theory of meaning” and a “unified theory of information” (UTI), two 
thorny issues. A priori models can help as they often focus on organizing 
principles. Also, a winning view should offer benefits that equal or surpass 
gains seen from Shannon’s (1948) earlier work. For example, firm notions of 
meaning and universality are key to founding a meaningful AI, and to addressing 
hurdles in quantum mechanics/computing and in material science (Aspuru-Guzik, 
2015). 

An a priori effort starts with “what comes before information,” using analytic 
philosophy to frame core concepts, but it ends in a phenomenology of useful 
information – two often opposed views. The session thus entails divergent 
levels of analysis that may stir confusion. For example, disorder at one level 
implies a type of order at a different level (type theory, Bateson’s 
“differences themselves must be differentiated”), but framed by one system of 
thought. Thus, to help guide this session and to initiate group dialogue, a 
cursory model is offered. With the foregoing cautionary notes in mind, I invite 
you to join this FIS session: together we will see what unfolds. . . . .

The full version of this introductory text (1,600 words) is attached as a PDF, 
or can be downloaded at:
https://issuu.com/mabundis/docs/fis


The central goal of this session is – from an "a priori" perspective – to name 
specific structural fundaments, and attempt some progress on modeling:
1. An UTI that reconciles/synthesizes the works of Shannon (entropy), Bateson 
(differences/distinctions), and Darwinian selection (e.g., Are these the 
correct starting points and how do we proceed?)
2. How "meaning" can be framed in a *fundamental* manner that makes sense 
within the diverse informational roles we now confront (minimizing 
"higher-order" debate, re Deacon's [from IS4IS] "keeping our levels straight")


I look forward to hearing your thoughts . . . 

Marcus



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Re: [Fis] To FIS, Francesco and Bob - the concept of "reflection".

[Krassimir Markov]

Caro Francesco,

Ho letto la tua lettera con grande attenzione e comprensione. Io accettare 
completamente la sorveglianza, che l'informazione è diversa in sistemi diversi. 

Questo è esattamente l'essenza della teoria di riflessione, che descrive i 
molti livelli di riflessione - fisici, chimici, meccanici, biologici, 
psicologici, sociali ... 

Quindi a volte c'è fraintendimento del concetto di "riflessione". 

Tutto apposto. Pensiamo allo stesso modo.

Distinti saluti

Krassimir



Dear Francesco,

I read your letter with great care and understanding. I accept fully the 
surveillance, that the information is different in different systems. 

This is exactly the essence of the theory of reflection, which describes many 
levels of reflection - physical, chemical, mechanical, biological, 
psychological, social ... 

So, sometimes there is misunderstanding of the concept of "reflection".  

Alright. We think the same way!

With best regards
Krassimir



Dear Bob,

Thank you for your remark and especially – for the book!

It is very interesting. 

The answer of you remark is just in my answer to Francesco – in reality there 
are many different kinds of reflection. 

Because of this we have many different kinds (types) of information.

But the common is that the reflection became information only in the 
consciousness of recipient and only in the context which is already stored in 
his/her memory. 

In other words, the Information is a reflection for which the recipient can 
recognize what the reflection reflects.

Kind regards

Крассимир














From: Francesco Rizzo 
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 5:20 PM
To: Krassimir Markov 
Subject: Re: [Fis] _ Re: _ Closing lecture

Caro Krassimir, 
come ho scritto altre volte l'informazione ha un solo contenuto-dare o prendere 
forma- che può essere oggetto di definizioni diverse:
- in termodinamica questa forma consiste del gradiente termico o differenza tra 
molecole calde e veloci da un lato e fredde e lente dall'altro lato;
- in matematica o cibernetica corrisponde al numero delle alternative 
possibili, misurabili in bit di entropia: quello che in termodinamica è 
dis-informazione (entropia), in matematica è informazione;
- nella teoria della comunicazione è improbabilità o incertezza: la ricchezza 
dell'informazione matematica si riduce quando si sovrappone su di essa un 
s-codice per avere una significato semantico;
- in biologia è la sequela DNA-RNA-proteine che consente la comunicazione 
dell'informazione genetica;
-in economia il contenuto-informazione conferisce il valore ai beni o servizi: 
da qui la forma del valore o il valore della forma; etc.
Il discorso potrebbe continuare chiamando in causa la logica "fuzzy", ma non 
credo che sia il caso.
Una cosa è certa: l'informazione, comunque definita, è preceduta dalla 
significazione e seguita dalla comunicazione. La comunicazione, non è una 
trasmissione di segnali, ma un dialogo di segni che implica il codice di chi 
trasmette e il codice di chi riceve.
Sempre, con molta umiltà, un abbraccio.
Francesco.

2016-02-02 12:44 GMT+01:00 Krassimir Markov <mar...@foibg.com>:

  Dear Howard,

  Thank you very much for your great effort and nice explanation!
  I like it!

  Only what I needed to see is a concrete answer to the question “what it the 
Information?”
  You absolutely clearly described it and I totally agree with your 
considerations.
  Only what is needed is to conclude with a short definition.
  I think it may be the next:

  The Information is a reflection which may be interpreted by its receiver in 
the context the receiver has in his/her memory.

  From this definition many consequences follow. In future we may discuss them.

  Friendly regards
  Krassimir

  PS:
  Dear FIS Colleagues,

  1. At the ITHEA web side, the conferences for year 2016 have been announced.
  One of them is the XIV-th International Conference on “General Information 
Theory”.
  Please visit link:
  http://www.ithea.org/conferences/conferences.html
  Welcome in Varna, Bulgaria !

  2. May be it will be interesting to read the paper, published in our 
  International Journal “Information Theories and Applications” ( 
http://www.foibg.com/ijita/ ) :
  Formal Theory of Semantic and Pragmatic Information - a Technocratic Approach
  by Venco Bojilov
  http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol22/ijita22-04-p05.pdf
  Please send your remarks to the author to e-mail: off...@ithea.org 

  Krassimir







  From: howlbl...@aol.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:46 AM
  To: pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es 
  Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es 
  Subject: [Fis] _ Closing lecture


  First, a few responses.  I agree with Hans von Baeyer.  Pedro’s kindness is 
magic.  

  I agree with Gyorgy Darvas that quarks communicate.

  I also agree with Jerry Chandler.  Brute force is not the major mover of 
history.  Values and virtues count.  A lot.  In fact, a culture organizes 
itself by calling one way of doing thi

[Fis] _ Re: _ Closing lecture

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Howard,

Thank you very much for your great effort and nice explanation!
I like it!

Only what I needed to see is a concrete answer to the question “what it the 
Information?”
You absolutely clearly described it and I totally agree with your 
considerations.
Only what is needed is to conclude with a short definition.
I think it may be the next:

The Information is a reflection which may be interpreted by its receiver in the 
context the receiver has in his/her memory.

>From this definition many consequences follow. In future we may discuss them.

Friendly regards
Krassimir

PS:
Dear FIS Colleagues,

1. At the ITHEA web side, the conferences for year 2016 have been announced.
One of them is the XIV-th International Conference on “General Information 
Theory”.
Please visit link:
http://www.ithea.org/conferences/conferences.html
Welcome in Varna, Bulgaria !

2. May be it will be interesting to read the paper, published in our 
International Journal “Information Theories and Applications” ( 
http://www.foibg.com/ijita/ ) :
Formal Theory of Semantic and Pragmatic Information - a Technocratic Approach
by Venco Bojilov
http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol22/ijita22-04-p05.pdf
Please send your remarks to the author to e-mail: off...@ithea.org 

Krassimir







From: howlbl...@aol.com 
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:46 AM
To: pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es 
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: [Fis] _ Closing lecture


First, a few responses.  I agree with Hans von Baeyer.  Pedro’s kindness is 
magic.  

I agree with Gyorgy Darvas that quarks communicate.

I also agree with Jerry Chandler.  Brute force is not the major mover of 
history.  Values and virtues count.  A lot.  In fact, a culture organizes 
itself by calling one way of doing things evil—brute force—and another way of 
doing things a value  and a virtue.  Our way is the value and the virtue.  The 
ways of others are brute force and evil.  We see cooperation  and warmth among 
us.  But only enmity  and destruction among them.  

The  brute force is not within groups, where values, virtues, and compassion 
prevail.  It’s between groups.  It’s in the pecking order battles between 
groups.  

Which means, in answer to Marcus Abundis, yes, groups struggle for position in 
inter-group hierarchies like chickens in a barnyard.  For example, America and 
China are vying right now for top position in the barnyard of nations.  
Russia’s in that battle, too.  On a lower level, so are Saudi Arabia and Iran, 
whose proxy war in Syria for pecking order dominance has cost a quarter of a 
million lives.  That’s brute force.  Between groups whose citizens are often 
lovely and loving to each other.  Whose citizens are proud of their values and 
virtues.

Now for a final statement.

Information exists in a context.  That’s not at all surprising.  Information is 
all about context.  As the writings of Guenther Witzany hint.  And as Ludwig 
Wittgenstein also suggested.  Information is relational.  Information does not 
exist in a vacuum.  It connects participants.  And it makes things happen.  
When it’s not connecting participants, it’s not information

FIS gets fired up to a high energy level when discussing the definition of 
information and its relationship to Shannon’s entropic information equation.  
Alas, these discussions tend  to remove the context.  And context is what gives 
information its indispensable ingredient, meaning.

There are two basic approaches in science:  

·the abstract mathematical; 

·and the observational empirical.  

Mathematical abstractionists dwell on definitions and equations.  Empirical 
observers gather facts.  Darwin was an observational empiricist. I’d like to 
see more of Darwin’s kind of science in the world of information theory.

One of Darwin’s most important contributions was not the concept of natural 
selection.  It was an approach that Darwin got from Kant and from his 
grandfather Erasmus.  That approach?  Lay out the history of the cosmos on a 
timeline and piece together its story.  In chronological order.  Piece together 
the saga of how this cosmos has created itself.  Including the self-motivated, 
self-creation of life.

Communication plays a vital role in this story.  It appears in the first 
10(-32) of a second of the cosmos’ existence, when quarks communicated using 
attraction and repulsion cues.  OK, it’s not quite right to call the cues 
attraction and repulsion cues.  When two quarks sized each other up, they 
interpreted the signals of the strong force differently.  If you were a quark, 
another quark might size you up and promptly speed away.  But a quark of a 
different variety might detect the same signals, find them wildly attractive, 
and speed in your direction.  One quark’s meat was another’s poison, even in 
that first form of communication in the cosmos.  

Information is not a stand-alone.  Again, it’s contextual.  It’s ruled by what 
Guenther Witzany calls syntax, semantics, and, most 

Re: [Fis] _ RE: _ Re: Cho 2016 The social life of quarks

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,

First of all, because this is first my post in this year, please receive my 
best wishes for health and prosperity in the new 2016 year!

Let it be peaceful and constructive!

About quarks and all other entities I would to remember (in accordance with 
Pedro) that :


All entities in the world INTERACT, but only LIVE ONES COMMUNICATE.

Computers do not communicate, they interact via corresponded networks.
But the (result from this) interaction may be assumed (by humans) as 
communication between live creatures (i.e. humans).


Happy New 2016 Year!

Friendly regards
Krassimir





-Original Message- 
From: Pedro C. Marijuan

Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 4:06 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] _ RE: _ Re: Cho 2016 The social life of quarks

Dear FIS Colleagues,

Thanks to Jerry and Koichiro for their insightful and deep comments.
Nevertheless the question from Howard was very clear and direct and I
wonder whether we have responded that way --as usual, the simplest
becomes the most difficult. I will try here.

There is no "real" communication between quarks as they merely follow
physical law--the state of the system is altered by some input according
to boundary conditions and to the state own variables and parameters
that dictate the way Law(s) have to intervene. The outcome may be
probabilistic, but it is inexorably determined.

There is real communication between cells, people, organizations... as
the input is sensed (or disregarded) and judged according to boundary
conditions and to the accumulated experiential information content of
the entity. The outcome is adaptive: aiming at the
self-production/self-propagation of the entity.

In sum, the former is blind, while the second is oriented and made
meaning-ful by the life cycle of the entity.

Well, if we separate communication from the phenomenon of life, from its
intertwining with the life cycle of the entity, then everything goes...
and yes, quarks communicate, as well as billiard balls, stones, cells,
etc. Directly we provide further anchor to the mechanistic way of thinking.

best regards--Pedro



Koichiro Matsuno escribió:


At 2:43 AM 01/19/2016, Jerry wrote:

In order for symbolic chemical communication to occur, the language must 
go far beyond such simplistic notions of a primary interaction among 
forces, such as centripetal orbits or even the four basic forces.


The quark physicist is quirky in confining a set of quarks, including 
possibly tetra- or even penta-, within a closed bag with use of a virtual 
exchange of matter called gluons. This bag is methodologically 
tightly-cohesive because of the virtuality of the things to be exchanged 
exclusively in a closed manner. In contrast, the real exchange of matter 
underlying the actual instantiation of cohesion, which concerns the 
information phenomenologist facing chemistry and biology in a serious 
manner, is about something referring to something else in the actual and 
is thus open-ended. Jerry, you seem calling our attention to the actual 
cohesion acting in the empirical world which the physicist has failed in 
coping with, so far.


   Koichiro

*From:*Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Jerry LR 
Chandler

*Sent:* Tuesday, January 19, 2016 2:43 AM
*To:* fis 
*Subject:* [Fis] _ Re: Cho 2016 The social life of quarks

Koichiro, Bob U., Pedro:

Recent posts here illustrate the fundamental discord between modes of 
human communication.  Pedro’s last post neatly addresses the immediate 
issue.


 But, the basic issue goes far, far deeper.

The challenge of communicating our meanings is not restricted to just 
scientific meaning vs. historical meaning.  Nor, communication between the 
general community and, say, the music (operatic and ballad) communities.


Nor, is it merely a matter of definition of terms and re-defining terms as 
“metaphor”in another discipline.


Pedro’s post aims toward the deeper issues, issues that are fairly known 
and understood in the symbolic  logic and chemical communities. In the 
chemical community, the understanding is at the level of intuition because 
ordinary usage within the discipline requires an intuitive understanding 
of the way symbolic usage manifests itself in different disciplines.


(For a detailed description of these issues, see, The Primary Logic, 
Instruments for a dialogue between the two Cultures. M. Malatesta, 
Gracewings, Fowler Wright Books, 1997.)


The Polish Logician, A. Tarski, recognized the separation of meanings and 
definitions requires the usage of METALANGUAGES.  For example, ordinary 
public language is necessary for expression of meaning of mathematical 
symbolic logic.  But, from the basic mathematical language, once it 
grounded in ordinary grammar, develops new set of symbols and new meanings 
for relations among mathematical symbols. Consequently, mathematicians 
re-define a long index of terms that are have different 

[Fis] We have different “fen clubs” depending of sympathy to one or other definition of information

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,

This discussion was not planed. It started without any a priory explanation and 
because of this become more emotional.

I see, we have different “fen clubs” depending of  sympathy to one or other 
definition of information.
This is nice. Variety is important for development of science.

What is not good is that we stay only on the stage of definition of 
information. It is not needed if no theory is built on it.
The theory has to be experimented and proved.
Finally, such theory has to explain all information appearances and processes 
around us – I say around us but not all imaginable ones!

How much theories we have till now?
FIS is just place to present Theories!
Unfortunately, Masters stay silent and not teach us to use their theories.

Below I attach my answers to Stan and Bruno which was sent last week.

Friendly regards
Krassimir




Dear Stan,
I have no more attempts for FIS List for this week and will send this my answer 
to FIS tomorrow.
But it is pleasure for me to answer to you now.

Yes, I do not agree with the Wheeler concept that information was the basis 
upon which everything else was founded – this is the concept of God and it 
could not be proved, only to believe.
Yes, information doesn't appear in the universe until life makes it appearance. 
More, the information does not appear independently from live creatures, it is 
their internal state(s).
No, information does not appear in the universe until it is manipulated by 
modern human society as a commodity, it appeared together with live. 
Without reflections of external and internal structures and processes, as well 
as without memory, processing of reflection, and, at the end, reacting – 
without all of this the live is impossible.
What is done by modern society is to start understanding (but still not 
finished) what is the information.

Friendly regards
Krassimir


Dear Bruno,
Thank you for the remarks. Now I will answer only to you due to limit of posts 
in FIS List – tomorrow I’ll resend it for the list.

I agree with you partially.
Deep analysis and explanation of this problem is published in:
http://www.foibg.com/ijitk/ijitk-vol02/ijitk02-4-p06.pdf 
I hope, in this publication you will find answer of your remarks as well as 
basis for further discussion.

I think that it is crucial to keep the harmony and dialectical unity of the 
scientific and non-scientific approaches,
following the wisdom of St. Augustine: Intelligo ut credam, credo ut 
intelligam!.

Finally, please answer: Is the Theology a science or not? What kind of 
experiments one may provide to proof the Theology statements? 

Friendly regards
Krassimir___
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Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear John and Stan,
Your both hierarchies are good only if you believe in God.
But this is believe, not science.
Sorry, nothing personal!
Friendly regards
Krassimir




From: John Collier 
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM
To: Stanley N Salthe ; fis 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Not quite the same hierarchy, but similar:

 



 

It from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s 
computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree with 
this.

Chemical information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most physiological 
systems.

 

John

 

From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Stanley N Salthe
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

 

Pedro -- Your list:

 

physical, biological, social, and Informational

 

is implicitly a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the 
physical subsuming the biological and the biological subsuming the social.  But 
where should information appear?  Following Wheeler, we should have:

 

{informational {physicochemical {biological {social

 

STAN

 

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es 
wrote:

Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort of the 
border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on the 
interrelationship between computation and information is an essential matter. 
In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever life cycles are 
involved and meaningfully touched, there is info; while the mere info 
circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any life-cycle 
relevant aspect, may be taken as computation. The distinction between both may 
help to consider more clearly the relationship between the four great domains 
of sceince: physical, biological, social, and Informational. If we adopt a 
pan-computationalist stance, the information turn of societies, of 
bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to applying computer 
technologies. I think this would be a painful error, repeating the big mistake 
of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the sciences of the artificial 
and reduced the nascent info science to library science. People like Alex 
Pentland (his social physics 2014) are again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, 
it was nicer talking face to face as we did in the past conference!

best ---Pedro

Ken Herold wrote:

FIS:

Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did not 
intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative way of 
philosophy or computing.  The references I listed are indicative of some bad 
thinking as well as good ideas to reflect upon.  Our focus is information and I 
would like to hear how you might believe the formal relational scheme of 
Rosenbloom could be helpful?

Ken

-- 
Ken Herold
Director, Library Information Systems
Hamilton College
198 College Hill Road
Clinton, NY 13323
315-859-4487
kher...@hamilton.edu mailto:kher...@hamilton.edu



-- 
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

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Re: [Fis] Chuan's reply15 - THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE:summary2

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Chuan, Pedro and FIS colleagues,
I agree with your arguments and conclusions.
Unfortunately, these weeks I was seriously ill and could not take active 
part in the discussion.
But, fortunately, I had published a paper where my reasoning and conclusions 
were explained.
Please see the paper CULTURE ASPECTS OF INFORACTION : 
http://www.foibg.com/ijitk/ijitk-vol02/ijitk02-4-p06.pdf (open access).

I wish you successful work in this very important branch of Informatics.
Friendly regards
Krassimir




-Original Message- 
From: 赵川

Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 3:09 AM
To: FIS论坛
Subject: [Fis] Chuan's reply15 - THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE 
SCIENCE:summary2


Dear Joseph, Pedro, Prof. Zhong, and dear All FISer Leaguers,

Just as in the summer of 1956, in Dartmouth College, many interdisciplinary 
scholars met and has a tow-months long discussion and contributed the 
concept/direction as Artificial Intelligence. This spring of 2015, in 
Internet world wide, we FIS leaguers’ minds met/worked in Internet, we 
focused the concept /term of Intelligence Science. And tried preliminarily 
to made sure Intelligence science’s mission，range, the relation of IS and 
IS, FIS and FIS, relation with AI and other fields. Such mails with deep 
thought and wide horizon are “Foundational” and ”Frontier” both.
1. In the finish of our discussion allow me put the “kickoff file” (dear 
Pedro’s analogy. I enjoy it.) in the attachment prepared with Pedro and 
Joseph before the beginning of our session. Forgive me that I have not 
enough strength to sort the questions this time yet. Perhaps very soon after 
out discussion finish I should integrate them with the new questions emerged 
in our session.
2. Allow me announce again here to form a “National Scientist’s Poetry 
group”. It is the time try to initiate it with now more academic leagues in 
our discussion session. Let me put the mail of July 12, 2014 that can make 
sure my wish:


Dear scientist-poets and poet-scientists,
After I wrote a mail to Joseph to report the news Prof. Mihir Chacraborty 
visited my university. Then I forwarded it to Denis Mire, I want to call him 
“where are you?”, I think of perhaps this can forward to 
Gerhard,Besiau,…etc. So now touch many fiends and leagues!
I think of perhaps we should form an “πpoem association”. Because we are 
in different countries though we all in one poetical field, it should be an 
“InternationalπPoem Association”.

Do you think this is a good idea? I wish hear your echoes.
Our Intelligence Science Laboratory (I work in Chengdu University of 
Technology) should be 3 years. I think of to edit something to congratulate. 
One is a small poem collection of scientist. Science is research and 
research is poetical. Could you allowed and perhaps can share me more new 
poems?
Not serious publish kind. Just collect to please to encourage and accompany 
ourselves. We are too heavy to enjoy poetical feeling. It is a bunch of 
flowers instead of a cold book.
Making a good cup of tea, water is needed and should be enough. Now our 
science study condition is too much tea and too few water. So that the tea 
soup is bitter, not faint scent.
Yes, Prof. Mihir invited me and another poet to join the International 
Poetical Conference January 2015 in Calcutta, India. If I join it, I should 
take our information of poem from Science to the conference.

It is still an inspiration. Something is possible.
Best wishes and good summer,
Zhao chuan
   July 12, 2014
I sent it to many friends as scientist-poets and poet-scientists. That day 
and till now, there was only an echo from Joseph. He welcomed it and 
suggested then that we can have such a poetry group first. Near a year 
pasted, nether a ”πpoem association” nor a Scientist’ Poetry 
Group/society, no matter what style or name, the wish is the same. I love 
science and poem both, and I have seen so many excellent poems from 
scientists, they are so important poets and poems to our civilization. Yes, 
important, for normal poets as humanist can’t understand science 
straightly, can’t bear the press of scientist. Such scientist and their 
poems form new literature and new science the same. We should not ignore 
such precious resource of hearts, of intelligence, of their meaning they 
bringing as information. They are powerful and efficient.
3. Here a star, there a star, By the way let me point another stars for you 
and please add/invite them to our FIS liker. They are: Mihir Chacraborty 
mihi...@gmail.com, Denis Mire meida...@126.com, Liu Yu 
franceli...@gmail.com, and Beziau j...@ufc.br. I think with their join 
our IFS Forum should have more energy and enough dimensions. About them more 
details later.


Then we should finish our FIS discussion session (Frontiers of Intelligence 
Science) in FIS (Foudation of Information Science). Dear Pedro, Let this 
discussion finish naturally perhaps it should last one or two weeks. Then we 

Re: [Fis] About Italian and other languages

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Francesco, FIS,
It is no need to be mathematician to understand that composition of a function 
f and f-1 gives identity.
In other words, if you use Google translator to translate from Italian to 
English and after that received text you will translate back to Italian you may 
control what was received in English.
After small number of corrections you will receive correct text in English.
I see you may read English and I wish you success!
Friendly regards
Krassimir

To see that this is quite possible please see the translation of the text above 
from English to Italian.
I do not know Italian and this is my first translation, but I am sure that it 
is correct  !

Caro Francesco, FIS,
Non è necessario essere matematico per capire che la composizione di una 
funzione f e f-1 dà identità.
In altre parole, se si utilizza Google traduttore per tradurre da italiano a 
inglese e, dopo che il testo ricevuto tradurrà Torna a Italiano è possibile 
controllare ciò che si riceve in inglese.
Dopo un piccolo numero di correzioni riceverete testo corretto in inglese.
Vedo si può leggere l'inglese, e vi auguro successo!
Amichevoli saluti
Krassimir 







From: John Collier 
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 12:58 PM
To: 钟义信 
Cc: fis 
Subject: Re: [Fis] THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE--Zhao Chuan

List,

 

I find that it works well to use Google Translate. It is hardly perfect, but 
much better than Bing, which gives laughable translations. I have used it here 
in Brazil on both my computer and cell phone, as well as having my bank use it 
when there were communications problems. Here is the translation I got this 
time:

 

Dear Yixin Zhong and Dear All,

I'm sorry that my words are not understood. On the other hand I do not want to 
miss out on anyone. Who can understand it is free to do or not to use as I 
want. The world turns the same, including the field of intelligence, regardless 
of my words. Anyway, thank you and best wishes for a well-deserved success.

Francesco Rizzo.

 

Best,

John

 

 

From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Francesco Rizzo
Sent: March 18, 2015 7:21 AM
To: 钟义信
Cc: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE--Zhao Chuan

 

Caro Yixin Zhong e Cari Tutti,

mi dispiace che le mie parole non siano capite. D'altra parte non voglio 
mancare di riguardo a nessuno. Chi le può comprendere è libero di farne o non 
farne l'uso che vuole. Il mondo gira lo stesso, compreso il campo 
dell'intelligenza, a prescindere dalle mie parole. Comunque, grazie e auguri di 
un meritato successo.

Francesco Rizzo.

 

2015-03-15 12:12 GMT+01:00 钟义信 z...@bupt.edu.cn:

Dear 

Caro Yixin Zhong e Cari Tutti, 
mi dispiace che le mie parole non siano capite. D'altra parte non voglio 
mancare di riguardo a nessuno. Chi le può comprendere è libero di farne o non 
farne l'uso che vuole. Il mondo gira lo stesso, compreso il campo 
dell'intelligenza, a prescindere dalle mie parole. Comunque, grazie e auguri di 
un meritato successo.
Francesco Rizzo.
,

 

Thank you for your e-mail.

I am sorry not to give you a reply because I am unable to understand your 
language.

 

Best regards,

 

Yixin ZHONG

 

 

- 回复邮件 -

发信人:Francesco Rizzo 13francesco.ri...@gmail.com

收信人:钟义信 z...@bupt.edu.cn

抄送:JohnPrpic pr...@sfu.ca,fis fis@listas.unizar.es

时间:2015年03月15日 18时01分07秒

主题:Re: [Fis] THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE--Zhao Chuan





 

Cari Tutti,

seguendo, per quel che posso capire, la discussione che si è accesa a proposito 
dell'intelligenza della scienza o della scienza dell'intelligenza, mi piace 
ricordare che il concetto di caos dimostra la sua importanza quando guida i 
ricercatori a creare nuove idee. I sistemi caotici sono creativi. Senza questa 
creatività la legislazione del nostro intelletto  non potrebbe conferire forma 
(tras-informare) e significare i dati altrimenti sconnessi dell'esperienza. Le 
trascendenze intellettuali  e le intuizioni empiriche servono a costruire la 
concordanza o la connessione tra le leggi del cervello e le leggi della natura 
o della società che si com-penetrano, esaltano e nobilitano reciprocamente.

Saluti augurali e grati.

Francesco Rizzo.

 

2015-03-12 10:57 GMT+01:00 钟义信 z...@bupt.edu.cn:

 

Dear John, 

 

Thank you very much for the comments you made, which are very useful for me to 
think about.

 

May I just say a few words as my simple responses to the two points you wrote 
in your mail.

 

-- To my understanding, context and goals among others are necessary 
elements for an intelligence science system. Otherwise it would be unable to 
know where to go, what to do and how to do. In the latter case, it cannot be 
regards as intelligence system. 

 

--  As an intelligent system, it would usually be self-organized under certain 
conditions. This means thar the system has clear goal(s), is able to acquire 
the information about the changes in environment, able to learn the strategy 
for adjusting the structures of 

Re: [Fis] THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE--Zhao Chuan

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Chuan, Pedro, and FIS colleagues,

We need more concrete point of view to provide discussion.

Maybe it will be good to take in account the paper: 

Zhongzhi Shi. On Intelligence Science // International Journal of Advanced 
Intelligence
Volume 1, Number 1, pp.39-57, November, 2009.
http://aia-i.com/ijai/sample/vol1/no1/39-57.pdf  

Abstract:
Intelligence Science is an interdisciplinary subject which dedicates to joint 
research on
basic theory and technology of intelligence by brain science, cognitive 
science, artificial
intelligence and others. Brain science explores the essence of brain, research 
on the principle
and model of natural intelligence in molecular, cell and behavior level. 
Cognitive science
studies human mental activity, such as perception, learning, memory, thinking, 
consciousness
etc. In order to implement machine intelligence, artificial intelligence 
attempts
simulation, extension and expansion of human intelligence using artificial 
methodology
and technology. Research scientists coming from above three disciplines work 
together
to explore new concept, new theory, new methodology. It will be successful and 
create a
brilliant future in 21 century.
The paper will outline the framework of intelligence science and present the 
ten big
issues. Research approaches will be pointed out. Finally the paper gives 
perspective for
the future.

Friendly regards
Krassimir


PS: Dear Pedro, please forward to FIS this message if it is stopped by spam 
filter.










-Original Message- 
From: Pedro C. Marijuan 
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 2:00 PM 
To: 'fis' 
Subject: Re: [Fis] THE FRONTIERS OF INTELLIGENCE SCIENCE--Zhao Chuan 

Dear Chuan and FIS colleagues,

The scientific study of intelligence is quite paradoxical. One is 
reminded about the problems of psychology and ethology to create 
adequate categories and frameworks about animal and human intelligence. 
The approaches started in Artificial Intelligence were quite glamorous 
three or four decades ago, but the limitations were crystal clear at the 
end of the 80's. It marked the beginning of Artificial Life and quite 
many other views at the different frontiers of the theme (complexity 
theory, biocybernetics, biocomputing, etc.)  Also an enlarged 
Information Science was vindicated as the best option to clear the air 
(Stonier, Scarrott... and FIS itself too). In that line, Advanced 
Artificial Intelligence, as proposed by Yixin Zhong and others, has 
represented in my view a bridge to connect with our own works in 
information science. That connection between information processing 
and intelligence is essential. But in our occasional discussions on the 
theme we have always been centered in, say, the scientific 
quasi-mechanistic perspectives. It was time to enter the humanistic 
dimensions and the connection with the arts. Then, this discussion 
revolves around the central pillar to fill in the gap between sciences 
and humanities, the two cultures of CP Snow. 
The global human intelligence, when projected to the world, creates 
different disciplinary realms that are more an historical result that 
a true, genuine necessity. We are caught, necessarily given our 
limitations, in a perspectivistic game, but we have the capacity to play 
and mix the perspectives... multidisciplinarity is today the buzzword, 
though perhaps not well addressed and explained yet. So, your 
reflections Chao are quite welcome. 

best--Pedro

-- 
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

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Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro, Carolina and FIS Colleagues,

Firstly I want to congratulate Pedro and team for new FIS web site!
It looks nice and I am sure it will be useful tool for all of us.

Secondly – what is Neuroinformation?  
From point of view of General Information Theory, it is needed a Subject for 
which the reflection became information after receiving the evidence what the 
reflection reflects.
But what we have into the Subject?
Does he operate with information or only with signals and reflections? 
Who is/are internal Sub-Subject(s) and evidence(s)? 
After receiving answers to these questions we may create hypothesizes what is 
Neuroinformation.

I have my own understanding but it will be more good to listen other opinions.

What has been investigated by Neuroscience till now?

Friendly regards
Krassimir








From: Carolina Isiegas 
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 2:46 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

Dear list,


I have been reading during the last year all these interesting exchanges. 
Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific backgound (Molecular 
Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the topic of 
neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central Nervous Systems. 
My task was experimental; I was interested in investigating the molecular 
mechanisms underlying learning and memory, specifically, the role of the 
cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such brain functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at 
the University of Pennsylvania, where I spent 7 years). I generated several 
genetically modified mice in which I could regulate the expression of this 
pathway in specific brain regions and in which I studied the effects of 
upregulation or downregulation at the synaptic and behavioral levels. However, 
I am conscious that the information flow within the mouse Nervous System is 
far more complex that in the simple pathway that I was studying...so, my 
concrete question for you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the 
micro and macro structures of information within the neural realm? what is 
Neuroinformation?


Best wishes,



-- 

Carolina Isiegas




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Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Bob,
I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information may be a 
process and it may be a static depending of what kind of reflection it is.
For instance, we reflect the world around:
- as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.; 
- as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.; 
- and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical 
imaginations in our consciousness.
Friendly regards
Krassimir

PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next one!



From: Bob Logan 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM
To: Joseph Brenner 
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?

Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information in 
general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun. Inspired by 
Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that Information is a verb It is 
a verb because it describes a process. Although that solves one problem we need 
to be able to describe a set of signs that have the potential to initiate the 
process of informing through interpretation. I would not suggest we create 
another word but recognize that the word information has many meanings and that 
when it is describing a process it has a verb-like quality to it and when it 
describes a set of sign that have the potential to be interpreted and hence 
become information it is acting as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple 
definition of the term information is not possible because its meaning is so 
context dependent. This is true of all words but even more so for information. 
For those that agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those 
that do not it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups,  Bob Logan

__ 

Robert K. Logan
Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto 
Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD 
http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan 
www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan
www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications













On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote:


  Dear Dr. Isiegas,

  I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in 
the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like to 
call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure' being 
dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic (better spiral or 
sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and inhibition. I have 
ascribed an extension of logic to this form of alternating actual and potential 
states in complex processes at all levels of reality.

  Best wishes,

  Joseph B.

  - Original Message - From: Robert E. Ulanowicz u...@umces.edu
  To: Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com
  Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
  Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM
  Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?


  Dear Dr. Isiegas:

  I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal
  network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of
  discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a
  network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in
  http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/SymmOvhd.PDF.

  Please note that this measure is different from the conventional
  sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more
  the structural information inhering in the neuronal network. John
  Collier (also a FISer) calls such information enformation to draw
  attention to its different nature.

  With best wishes for success,

  Bob Ulanowicz


Dear list,



   I have been reading during the last year all these interesting

exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific

backgound

(Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the

topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central

Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in

investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory,

specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such

brain

functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I

spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I

could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions

and

in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the

synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the

information flow within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex

that

in the simple pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for

you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the micro and macro

structures of information within the neural realm? what is

Neuroinformation?



Best wishes,





--

Carolina Isiegas

___

[Fis] About weekly posting frequency.

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro, Jerry, and FIS Colleagues,

Several times I have not finished my discussions because of very long time I 
needed to wait for next (third or fourth) letter.


Practically no serious discussion could be provided - only messages on the 
moment and, of course - invited starting and finishing explanations.


In the same time, I see that the active part of FIS colleagues who really 
write letters is not so great.


And this part is separated in other two parts - colleagues who are 
permanently on line and those who respond only if it is in their short 
interest area.


Because of this I propose to add two new rules:

- to permit posting more than two or three letters if and only if they 
contain questions for clarifying the already presented ideas from other 
colleagues. It is possible to send such letters of line but practically 
one and the same questions rise from different colleagues and it is more 
good to see that such questions are already sent. For me, the questions are 
important part of the discussions. To make clear that the letter contains 
questions, in subject of the letter may be written Question 


- to answer the questions in cumulative manner, i.e. the answering person 
has to collect questions and to answer to all of them in one or two letters. 
In this case we may permit two additional letters for answering the 
questions with corresponded subject:  Answers 


For explanations,  comments and other messages I think two letters per week 
are enough


Friendly regards
Krassimir




-Original Message- 
From: pedro marijuan

Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 9:00 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: [Fis] RV: FIS, Weekly posting frequency.


BlackBerry de movistar, allí donde estés está tu oficin@

-Original Message-
From: Jerry LR Chandler jerry_lr_chand...@me.com
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 10:37:32
To: Pedro C. Marijuanpcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
Subject: FIS, Weekly posting frequency.

Pedro:

Just a small suggestion about the rules for posting to the FIS list serve.

Personally, I find the current constraint of two posts per week is so 
restrictive that it makes a conversation very difficult.  It necessitates 
long delays, during which time, one looses interest in the topic.  (We are 
flooded by a plethora of new ideas!)


I feel that the value of the list would be enhanced by permitting three or 
even four posts per week.


I would suggest that you consult with other members about this issue.

You may post this message to the list serve if you wish.

Cheers

Jerry


On Nov 3, 2014, at 5:09 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:


Dear Marcin and colleagues,

Many thanks for the sympathy and for the suggestion. I think your proposal 
is quite in the spirit of the fis initiative. Maintaining the academic 
code of conduct should be the First Rule of the list. The Second Rule, as 
is well known, says that only two messages per week are allowed. And the 
Third Rule, should be about clean posting. I mean, in order to placate the 
susceptibility of the server filters the messages should be addressed only 
to fis, exclusively, (a few other addresses might appear in the cc, but 
the lesser the better), and not dragging old messages at the bottom is 
strongly recommended... Additionally, we have a fis steering committee 
(integrated by Yixin, Krassimir, Shu-Kun, and myself) that can arbitrate 
in contentious cases where the First Rule should apply.


Let us forget the present incident; always clarifying that FIS list is 
completely open to criticisms, first on fis itself, and also addressed to 
any other school or doctrine, either contemporary or from the past... 
knowing the opinion of contrarians is as much important as knowing the 
opinions of the followers. INFORMATION HAS ENORMOUSLY CHANGED OUR 
SCIENTIFIC-ECONOMIC-CULTURAL-SOCIAL WORLD AND WE NEED RADICALLY DIFFERENT 
IDEAS. By the way, there is an important work on social physics (but 
arguing from the information flow point of view) by Alex Pentland that in 
my opinion establishes the very foundations of SOCIAL INFORMATION 
SCIENCE--it is a pity, and possibly  an error (?), that this author has 
placed his exciting research under the banner of physics.


best wishes ---Pedro




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Re: [Fis] The Travellers

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,

For me it was amazing time to read exchanges about The travelers !
I was silent because for me is was stimulus brain storming discussion.
I received a plenty of influences.

Only one aspect there was not commented and let me now to this.

For this purpose I will use a remarkable text from:
[ Frege G. An extract from an undated letter, published in Frege's 
Philosophical and Mathematical Correspondence (ed.) Gottfried Gabriel, Hans 
Hermes. Friedrich Kanbartel. Christian Thiel, and Albert Veraart, Abridged for 
the English (edn.), by Brian MeGuinness, and Trans. Hans Kaal (Oxford: 
Blackwell. 1980), 
http://mind.ucsd.edu/syllabi/00-01/phil235/a_readings/frege_jourdain.html 
(accessed: 15.11.2012) ].:

In a letter written to Philip Jourdain in 1914, Gottlob Frege had written:


Let us suppose an explorer travelling in an unexplored country sees a high 
snow-capped mountain on the northern horizon.
By making inquiries among the natives he learns that its name is 'Aphla'. By 
sighting it from different points he determines its position as exactly as 
possible, enters it in a map, and writes in his diary: 'Aphla is at least 5000 
meters high'.
Another explorer sees a snow-capped mountain on the southern horizon and learns 
that it is called Ateb. He enters it in his map under this name.
Later comparison shows that both explorers saw the same mountain. Now the 
content of the proposition 'Ateb is Aphla' is far from being a mere consequence 
of the principle of identity, but contains a valuable piece of geographical 
knowledge. What is stated in the proposition 'Ateb is Aphla' is certainly not 
the same thing as the content of the proposition 'Ateb is Ateb'.
Now if what corresponded to the name 'Aphla' as part of the thought was the 
reference of the name and hence the mountain itself, then this would be the 
same in both thoughts. The thought expressed in the proposition 'Ateb is Aphla' 
would have to coincide with the one in 'Ateb is Ateb', which is far from being 
the case. What corresponds to the name 'Ateb' as part of the thought must 
therefore be different from what corresponds to the name 'Aphla' as part of the 
thought. This cannot therefore be the reference which is the same for both 
names, but must be something which is different in the two cases, and I say 
accordingly that the sense of the name 'Ateb' is different from the sense of 
the name 'Aphla'.
Accordingly, the sense of the proposition 'Ateb is at least 5000 meters high' 
is also different from the sense of the proposition 'Aphla is at least 5000 
meters high'. Someone who takes the latter to be true need not therefore take 
the former to be true. An object can be determined in different ways, and every 
one of these ways of determining it can give rise to a special name, and these 
different names then have different senses; for it is not self-evident that it 
is the same object which is being determined in different ways.
We find this in astronomy in the case of planetoids and comets. Now if the 
sense of a name was something subjective, then the sense of the proposition in 
which the name occurs, and hence the thought, would also be something 
subjective, and the thought one man connects with this proposition would be 
different from the thought another man connects with it; a common store of 
thoughts, a common science would be impossible.
It would be impossible for something one man said to contradict what another 
man said, because the two would not express the same thought at all, but each 
his owns.
For these reasons I believe that the sense of a name is not something 
subjective (crossed out: in one's mental life), that it does not therefore 
belong to psychology, and that it is indispensable.
“

What is important in this example is :
-The names Ateb and Aphla refer to different parts of the same natural 
object (mountain);
-The position of the referred object (mountain) is fixed by any artificial 
system (geographical co-ordinates) which is another knowledge about the same 
object;
-The names correspond one to another and both to the real object but 
without the explorers’ maps and diaries, it is impossible to restore the 
correspondence.

In conclusion, let me remark that we really need “knowledge maps” to understand 
each other “travelling in an unexplored reality”.
Such knowledge maps usually are called “General Theories”.

Friendly regards
Krassimir




-Original Message- 
From: Pedro C. Marijuan 
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 3:45 PM 
To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] The Travellers 

Dear FIS colleagues,

Quite interesting exchanges, really. The discussion reminds me the times 
when behaviorism and ethology were at odds on how to focus the study of 
human/animal behavior. (Maybe I already talked about that some months 
ago.) On the one side, a rigorous theory and a strongly reductionist 
point of view were advanced --about learning, conditioned  
unconditioned 

Re: [Fis] Krassimir's Information Quadruple and GIT.

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Mark and colleagues,

I totally agree!

The need of variety of information theories which explain the information 
phenomena from different point of view and on different levels was fixed more 
than twenty years ago in the name of the first ITHEA Int. Journal called 
“Information theories and applications”. As more theories so much systematized 
knowledge.

Mark, thank you for brilliant remark!
As you see we continue and extend our common research started in 1989-1991.

Friendly regards
Krassimir





From: Burgin, Mark 
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2014 11:33 PM
To: Krassimir Markov 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Krassimir's Information Quadruple and GIT.

Dear Krassimir and Colleagues,
  In his e-mail, Krassimir very well explained the differences between energy 
and information in the sense of General Information Theory (GIT). These 
differences appear because GIT studies information on the higher level than the 
General Theory of Information (GTI). If we look into mathematics, we see that 
group theory studies mathematical structures on on the higher level than set 
theory. Although set theory is most basic, while group theory has more 
applications outside mathematics, both theories - set theory and group theory - 
are necessary for mathematics as a whole. Thus, we may compare GIT to group 
theory and GTI to set theory as groups have additional structure in comparison 
with sets as the information quadruple of GIT has additional structure in 
comparison with the information triad of GTI. 

 Sincerely,
   Mark Burgin


On 8/25/2014 11:51 AM, Krassimir Markov wrote:

  Dear Colleagues,

  Thank you for comments and remarks.
  Many thanks to Mark for his interesting post.
  Really, the correspondence between energy and information is fundamental and 
needs to be clearly explained.

  I want to present my point of view because it is different from other ones. 

  It is clear, the energy is needed to create a reflection. 
  Without energy no internal changes (reflections) in the entities may be 
realized.
  This means that energy is needed to realize reflection which may become 
information for given subject.
  Without energy information is impossible.

  But the opposite correspondence does not exist.
  Energy does not depend on information.
  It exists in reality without subjects’ “decisions”.
  Energy is objective phenomenon , Information is subjective phenomenon.

  Let see a simple example.

  Let we have two equal pieces of paper.
  They contain some energy, let assume that its quantities are equal in both 
pieces.
  In other words, for instance, if we burn these pieces they will release 
practically the same quantities of energy.
  If I have such piece of paper  and you have another such one, we may exchange 
them as equivalent without any additional conditions.

  Let now the pieces of paper are painted with some colors. 
  The paint will add some additional energy to pieces. 
  Let assume that again it is in equal quantities in both pieces. 
  Again, we may exchange pieces as equivalent without any additional conditions.

  At the end, let pieces of paper are painted as follow:
  - the first piece is painted as USD 100 (one hundred dollars)
  - the second one is pained as RUB 100 (one hundred rubles)
  i.e. let have two real banknotes.

  Now, we will not agree to exchange these pieces of paper without additional 
conditions.
  As it is shown by Bloomberg, on 08/25/2014, 12.59:59, 
(http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/USDRUB:CUR) 
  US DOLLAR-RUSSIAN RUBLE Exchange Rate is:
  Price of 1 USD in RUB is 36.1646,
  i.e now the first piece of paper is equivalent to more than 36 pieces of 
second one.
  Because of information for the subjects, the pieces became different 
notwithstanding that the energy quantities are equal in both pieces.
  The subjective decisions have important role in this case.

  In conclusion, the energy and information are different phenomena – objective 
and subjective, respectively.

  Energy may be explained by triple (see Mark’s nice explanations about 
triples!) : (source, recipient, transition) = (x, y, f) = y=f(x) .
  Information has to be explained by quadruple (source, recipient, evidence, 
subject). Here, it is important to remember Mark’s “Infological System”  as 
Subject. 
  The triples are object of study by Mathematics, quadruples – by Informatics.

  Friendly regards
  Krassimir





  From: Stanley N Salthe 
  Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 4:51 PM
  To: fis 
  Subject: Re: [Fis] Fw: Krassimir's Information Quadruple and GIT. Quintuples?

  Bob wrote: 

  Recall that some thermodynamic variables, especially work functions like
  Helmholz  Gibbs free energies and exergy all are tightly related to
  information measures. In statistical mechanical analogs, for example, the
  exergy becomes RT times the mutual information among the molecules


  S: So, the more organized, the more potential available energy.

  I happen to be a radical who feels that the term energy

Re: [Fis] Krassimir's Information Quadruple and GIT.

[Krassimir Markov]

 wishes,

   Joseph




 - Original Message -
 From: Krassimir Markov
 To: Jerry LR Chandler ; FIS ; Pridi Siregar
 Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2014 10:42 AM
 Subject: [Fis] Information quadruple


 Dear Jerry, Pridi, and Colleagues,

 Thank you for the nice comments!

 To answer to questions I have to present next step from the GIT
 (General Information Theory) we are developing.

 Let remember in words (below Infos is abbreviation from Information
 Subject, it is an intelligent natural or artificial agent (system)):

 Information is quadruple (Source, Recipient, Evidence, Infos) or
 formally i = (s, r, e, I)

 The nest step is to define elements of the quadruple:

 s and r are structured sets;
 e is a mapping from s in r which preserves (all or partial) structure
 of s and resolves any information expectation of I

 I expect new questions:
 - what is an intelligent agent
 - what is information expectation
 - ...

 If it is interesting, answers to these questions may be given in
 further letters.

 ***

 Now I want to make some comments to letters received (their full texts
 are given below my answers).

 Pridi: information cannot be viewed in any absolute sense but as
 internal representations of external patterns
 Kr.:  Yes, the reflection is a property of Matter, information is
 a reflection for which the information quadruple exists. But
 information is not internal representations of external patterns .
 It is result from resolving the subjective information expectation
 which is process of comparing of internal and external patterns. I
 know, this will cause new questions

 Pridi: In this framework then, it seems that information cannot be
 conceptualized without reference to the both something out there and
 the internal structures of the receptor/cognitive system.
 Kr.: Yes.

 Pridi: How can we really quantify meaningful (semantic) information
 ... ?
 Kr.: By distance between external patterns and information
 expectation (sorry to be not clear but it is long text for further
 letters).

 Pridi: All objective measures (entropy, negentropy,...) are actually
 totally dependant of I1 and I2 and can never be considered as
 absolute.
 Kr.: Yes, but the world humanity is an Infos and its information
 expectations we assume as absolute.

 Pridi: ... some researchers that posit that information may be more
 fundamental than the fundamental physical (mass, time, space, amps).
 Kr.: Yes, there are other paradigms which are useful in some cases,
 but in our paradigm information is not fundamental but reflection
 is the fundamental.

 Pridi: ... no absolute truth (whatever this means) is really gained.
 Only a richer more complete (subjective but coherent) world-view .
 Kr.: Yes.

 Jerry: ... assertion of a quadruple of symbols is rather close to the
 philosophy of C S Peirce (hereafter CSP)
 Kr.: Our paradigm is nor opposite to what science has explored till
 now. All already investigated information theories (Shannon,Peirce,
 etc) have to be a part or intersection of a new GIT.

 Jerry: ... moves these 'definitions' of individual symbols into the
 subjective realm. (CSP's notion of interpretation?)
 Different researchers have the freedom to interpret the evidence as
 they choose, including the relationships to engineering terms such as
 bandwidth.
 Kr.: Yes. But not only researches, everybody has such freedom. Because
 of this there exist advertising processes ... but for this we have to
 talk in further letters.

 Jerry: Pridi's post appropriately recognizes the tension between
 objective scientific theories and subjective judgments about evidence
 by different  individuals with different professional backgrounds and
 different symbolic processing powers.
 Kr.: Yes, there will be tension if we assume world as plane structure.
 But it is hierarchical one and what is assumed as subjective at one
 level is assumed as objective for the low levels.

 Jerry: ... to show that these definitions of symbols motivate a
 coherent symbol system that can be used to transfer information
 contained in the signal from symbolic representations of entities. It
 may work for engineering purposes, but is it extendable to life?
 Kr.: The goal of work on GIT is to create a coherent symbol system
 which is equal valid for life creatures and artificial agents.

 Jerry: ... this requires the use of multiple symbol systems

[Fis] Information quadruple

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Jerry, Pridi, and Colleagues,

Thank you for the nice comments!

To answer to questions I have to present next step from the GIT (General 
Information Theory) we are developing.

Let remember in words (below “Infos” is abbreviation from “Information 
Subject”, it is an intelligent natural or artificial agent (system)):

Information is quadruple (Source, Recipient, Evidence, Infos) or formally i = 
(s, r, e, I) 

The nest step is to define elements of the quadruple:

s and r are structured sets;
e is a mapping from s in r which preserves (all or partial) structure of s and 
resolves any information expectation of I

I expect new questions:
- what is an “intelligent agent”
- what is “information expectation”
- ...

If it is interesting, answers to these questions may be given in further 
letters.

***

Now I want to make some comments to letters received (their full texts are 
given below my answers).

Pridi: “information cannot be viewed in any absolute sense but as internal 
representations of external patterns”
Kr.:  Yes, the “reflection” is a property of Matter, “information” is a 
reflection for which the information quadruple exists. But information is not 
“internal representations of external patterns ”. It is result from resolving 
the subjective information expectation which is process of comparing of 
internal and external patterns. I know, this will cause new questions 

Pridi: In this framework then, it seems that information cannot be 
conceptualized without reference to the both something out there and the 
internal structures of the receptor/cognitive system. 
Kr.: Yes.

Pridi: How can we really quantify meaningful (semantic) information ... ?
Kr.: By distance between external patterns and “information expectation” 
(sorry to be not clear but it is long text for further letters).

Pridi: All objective measures (entropy, negentropy,...) are actually totally 
dependant of I1 and I2 and can never be considered as absolute. 
Kr.: Yes, but the world humanity is an Infos and its information expectations 
we assume as absolute.

Pridi: ... some researchers that posit that information may be more 
fundamental than the fundamental physical (mass, time, space, amps). 
Kr.: Yes, there are other paradigms which are useful in some cases, but in our 
paradigm “information” is not fundamental but “reflection” is the fundamental.

Pridi: ... no absolute truth (whatever this means) is really gained. Only a 
richer more complete (subjective but coherent) world-view .
Kr.: Yes.

Jerry: ... assertion of a quadruple of symbols is rather close to the 
philosophy of C S Peirce (hereafter CSP) 
Kr.: Our paradigm is nor opposite to what science has explored till now. All 
already investigated information theories (Shannon,Peirce, etc) have to be a 
part or intersection of a new GIT.

Jerry: ... moves these 'definitions' of individual symbols into the subjective 
realm. (CSP's notion of interpretation?)
Different researchers have the freedom to interpret the evidence as they 
choose, including the relationships to engineering terms such as bandwidth.
Kr.: Yes. But not only researches, everybody has such freedom. Because of this 
there exist advertising processes ... but for this we have to talk in further 
letters. 

Jerry: Pridi's post appropriately recognizes the tension between objective 
scientific theories and subjective judgments about evidence by different  
individuals with different professional backgrounds and different symbolic 
processing powers. 
Kr.: Yes, there will be tension if we assume world as plane structure. But it 
is hierarchical one and what is assumed as “subjective” at one level is assumed 
as “objective” for the low levels.

Jerry: ... to show that these definitions of symbols motivate a coherent symbol 
system that can be used to transfer information contained in the signal from 
symbolic representations of entities. It may work for engineering purposes, but 
is it extendable to life?
Kr.: The goal of work on GIT is to create a coherent symbol system which is 
equal valid for life creatures and artificial agents.

Jerry: ... this requires the use of multiple symbol systems and multiple forms 
of logic in order to gain the functionality of transfer of in-form between 
individuals or machines.
Kr.: Yes, at least on three levels – Information, Infos, Inforaction 
(Information interaction)

Jerry: Anybody have any suggestions on how this quadruple of symbols can be 
formalized into a quantitative coherent form of communication?
Kr.: A step toward this I give above in the beginning of this letter but it is 
very long journey ...

Thank you for creative discussion!
Friendly regards
Krassimir





-Original Message- 
From: Jerry LR Chandler 
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 8:57 PM 
To: FIS 
Cc: Krassimir Markov ; Pridi Siregar 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Re to Pridi: infinite bandwith and finite informationcontent 
CS Peirce and Chemical Nomenclature 

Pridi, Krassimir,  List:

(In order

[Fis] Re to Pridi: infinite bandwith and finite information content

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pridi,

An accordance with my understanding:

In physical world there exist only reflections but not information.

Information “i is the quadruple:
i = (s, r, e, I)
where
s is a source entity, which is reflected in r
r is the entity in which reflection of s exists
e is an evidence for the subject I which proofs for him and only for him that 
the reflection in r reflects just s, i.e. the evidence proofs for the subject 
what the reflection reflects.
I is information subject who has possibility to make decisions in accordance 
with some goals – human, animal, bacteria, artificial intelligent system, etc.

In other words, information is a reflection, but not every reflection is 
information – only reflections for which the quadruple above exist are assumed 
as information by the corresponded subjects.

For different I, information may be different because of subjects’ finite 
memory and reflection possibilities.
Because of this, a physical event with an infinite bandwidth may have finite 
information content (for concrete information subject).

Friendly regards
Krassimir





-Original Message- 
From: Pridi Siregar 
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 10:35 AM 
To: Jerry LR Chandler 
Cc: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information 
Information Science 
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation 

I was thinking about particles with mass...:-)

If anyone has an idea concerning my question thanks for the reply. I'm totally 
ignorant concerning deep thoughts on the nature of information.

Pridi





- Mail original -
De: Jerry LR Chandler jerry_lr_chand...@me.com
À: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science Information 
Information Science fis@listas.unizar.es
Cc: John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za, Pridi Siregar 
pridi.sire...@ibiocomputing.com
Envoyé: Dimanche 20 Juillet 2014 05:12:53
Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

Pridi:

Are you mixing apples with citrus fruits?

Pure elastic collision are pre-suppose mass particles.
Electrical particles in this context do what?

Cheers

Jerry



On Jul 18, 2014, at 3:21 AM, Pridi Siregar wrote:

 Dear John and all,
 
 The limiting case of the particle collision (pure elastic collision) can be 
 represented by a dirac impulse whose spectral content ranges over all the 
 frequencies. I have a question: What does it mean to have a physical event 
 with an infinite bandwith while its information content is finite ?
 
 Best
 
 
 Pridi
 
 
 
 
 - Mail original -
 De: John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za
 À: fis@listas.unizar.es, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
 Envoyé: Mardi 15 Juillet 2014 07:19:50
 Objet: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation
 
 Dear fis members,
 
 I don't think that granularity per se is a 
 necessary basis for the application of 
 information theory to analog channels. In some 
 cases it might be, and I agree that studying the 
 relations between analog (continuous) and digital 
 (discrete) processes is likely to be both 
 interesting and productive. However the bandwidth 
 of an analog channel typically can be defined 
 even if there is no discreteness, for example if 
 the information bearing process consists of waves 
 so that the information bearing capacity is 
 limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical 
 processes are cyclical in some way and thus have 
 a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a 
 collision between particles that carries momentum 
 from one to another. I can't think offhand right 
 now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in 
 such cases there is a finite amount of 
 information transferred. In any case, Shannon 
 discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking 
 at.
 
 John
 
 At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:
 I think I agree with Joseph Brenner 
 here.  Analogue computing is linked to real 
 processes, while living beings find ways of 
 transducing information out of dynamical states. 
 The graininess that information theories rely on 
 to define measures may be directly linked 
 to  physical limits in the information carriers 
 (such as photons) or they might be limitations 
 of the processing organism, extracting the 
 sufficient difference that makes a difference. 
 And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view 
 analogue computing through pixellated perspectives.
 
 I'm not sure if this is well known to members of 
 this list, but Bill Bialek's biophysics text is 
 a profound reflection of the interplay between 
 the analogue and the digital, with selection 
 pressure forcing the sufficiency of the grainy 
 difference that makes a difference towards a 
 necessity for organisms, and hence pushing 
 sensory systems close to the physical limits of information transfer.
 Cheers,
 Sri
 
 
  Original message 
 From: Joseph Brenner
 Date:14/07/2014 18:12 (GMT+00:00)
 To: Pridi Siregar ,Pedro C. Marijuan
 Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
 Subject: Re: 

Re: [Fis] Re to Pridi: infinite bandwith and finite informationcontent - Information content of Atomic Numbers

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Jerry and Colleagues,

Thank you for the interesting comments.

Yes, the physical, material concept of order is the empirical ground for 
enumerations of physical chemistry.

But only on the human level, on the level of science, which is a kind of 
reflection of reality.
I.e. we have quadruple where Information subject is a very complex social 
system (science) and the other entities of the quadruple are complex, too.

Let remember the example – Carbon has the physical world definition of 6 – 
what means this?
For the not specialists this has no meaning – they need evidence what it 
reflects, at least corresponded definition.
I.e. one needs to configure the quadruple to receive any information.

Friendly regards
Krassimir









From: Jerry LR Chandler 
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 10:34 PM
To: FIS Information Science 
Cc: Krassimir Markov 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Re to Pridi: infinite bandwith and finite informationcontent 
- Information content of Atomic Numbers

List, Krassimir:


(I have posted Krassimir's response below, since it may not have been 
distributed to the list.)


My question was not a metaphysical question about materiality, my body and 
other such philosophical question of import.


Rather, it is direct question about the sufficiency of the rhetoric of the 
proposal to define a theory of information.


The response saids:
Atom has no number in the reality, it has one in any information quadruple.


The physical, material concept of order is the empirical ground for 
enumerations of physical chemistry.


The concept of atomic number is central to elemental quantum mechanics as 
well as atomic table of elements as well as molecular biology and of course, 
the practice of medicine itself.


To assert that Atom has no number in the reality  is a denial of physical 
reality, is it not?


By logical extension,
if Atom has no number in the reality, then the material world has no reality.
And:
If the material world has no reality, the proposed definition of information 
is self-contradictory.


This suggests to me that the proposed definition may need to altered to avoid 
the implication of self-contradiction.


Cheers


Jerry












Dear Jery,

Thank you for interesting remark.

Physical world means all material reality.
A special case of it are living creatures.

Your example is good for discussion – somewhere the Rutherford/Moseley 
experiments had been reflected to be further analyzed, i.e. we have information 
quadruple including scientists who assign atomic numbers. Atom has no number in 
the reality, it has one in any information quadruple. Of course, here we have 
very long chain of reflections and corresponded quadruples.

Ideal entities are reflections (information) in our brain and are so material 
as we are. This is long story about information models ... including your 
example ...

Friendly regards
Krassimir





On Jul 21, 2014, at 12:33 PM, Jerry LR Chandler wrote:


  List, Karassimir: 

  I found your definition of information to be a bit confusing because the 
language is a bit ambiguous to me.

  While the definitions of the quadruple make sense from a rhetorical sense, 
one notion that is missing is the concept of what is the meaning of the  
central reference term:  physical world.

  For example, please show how for your definition information works for the 
electrical nature of the carbon atom as defined by the Rutherford/Moseley 
experiments, which form the base of the atomic numbers. (Carbon has the 
physical world definition of 6.)  How would this information be symbolized?

  In other words, how does the concept of quantity enter into your definition?

  Cheers

  Jerry




  On Jul 21, 2014, at 4:40 AM, Krassimir Markov wrote:


Dear Pridi,

An accordance with my understanding:

In physical world there exist only reflections but not information.

Information “i is the quadruple:
i = (s, r, e, I)
where
s is a source entity, which is reflected in r
r is the entity in which reflection of s exists
e is an evidence for the subject I which proofs for him and only for him 
that the reflection in r reflects just s, i.e. the evidence proofs for the 
subject what the reflection reflects.
I is information subject who has possibility to make decisions in 
accordance with some goals – human, animal, bacteria, artificial intelligent 
system, etc.

In other words, information is a reflection, but not every reflection is 
information – only reflections for which the quadruple above exist are assumed 
as information by the corresponded subjects.

For different I, information may be different because of subjects’ finite 
memory and reflection possibilities.
Because of this, a physical event with an infinite bandwidth may have 
finite information content (for concrete information subject).

Friendly regards
Krassimir





-Original Message- 
From: Pridi Siregar 
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 10:35 AM

Re: [Fis] Perennial information question ...

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,

I agree that now it is not good approach to try to have common general info 
doctrine but it is important to define personal understanding when one is 
discussing some problems connecting the information. I other case, there is 
no common sense in the written sentences.

About Vienna and Varna conferences - they are quite different and no 
conflicting.

FIS and ISIS are specialized societies only to foundations of information 
sciences.

ITHEA is more large society than FIS - about 3000 members - and covers all 
fields of informatics ( see www.ithea.org )

Because of this, I stay on the position that Vienna conference is the right 
place for FIS meeting next year.

Unfortunately, the Vienna conference will be in the heavy time for me due to 
preparing Varna conference and it is really impossible for me to take part.

Friendly regards
Krassimir
presid...@ithea.org 



-Original Message- 
From: Pedro C. Marijuan 
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 1:14 PM 
To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna 

Dear FISers,

Just a few brief points on the many themes open.

Pridi's morphogenesis: The new computer fabrication techs based on 3D 
printers are opening a new realm of artificial morphogenesis. We are 
achieving, finally, something very similar to the intususpection growth 
of life, which is based on cellular signaling strategies coupled to 
force fields and electrical fields. This signaling involvement, 
basically in the control of the cellular life-cycle, is very interesting 
to me and have done some work . We could have an special section about 
that, maybe in a New Biology session next year in Varna, and maybe 
also in Vienna. Also with a European Projects and Innovation transfer 
session.

Perennial information question: given the open-ended characteristic of 
information and the proliferation of hundreds of definitions, 
advocating for a consensus is the most prudent strategy. Also it is 
needed  a new way of thinking consolidating different approaches to 
informational entities from a naturalistic and empirical perspective. 
The prejudice of looking for a general info doctrine out from physical 
fields, or from classical info theory, or from logics, keeps us into our 
beloved cul de sac.

Information flow: in the same way that understanding the energy flow 
in the biosphere, in the 50's and 60's (eg, Morowitz, Margalef) changed 
quite a bit the bioenergetic panorama, establishing the laws of the 
information flow could do the same effect in information science 
today; not only in biology, think also in enterprises, cities, 
countries, etc. I already posted on new urban science, how it relies on 
information flows (legitimately!). Quite a panoply of informational 
entities are based in communication and self-production intertwining of 
flows. Communication is held for the sake of self-production.

Great Domains of Science: Information Science(s) constitute with the 
Social, the Biological, and the Physical the four great domains of 
contemporary science (echoing Rosenbloom, modified)--that should be our 
working perspective. Not just that we are enlarging classical Library 
Science.

Varna's, Vienna's ... Both are we are quite complementary. Fortunately 
we are counting with two channels for our face-to-face communication. 
One devoted to the most general, and the other for the link with 
research  technical fields. Next week I will make some comments on 
Wolfgang's text, as I think it needs a little bit more of scientific 
contents (say related to info science  natural science) in order to 
attract active researchers in these fields.

best greetings

--Pedro

-- 
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-

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Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro, Joseph, John, Sri, and FIS Colleagues,

At first place, I want to congratulate all of you with 20-th Anniversary of FIS!
This is remarkable achievement of FIS community!
I wish you health and good positive spirit to continue our very important, 
interesting and fruitful collaboration!  

In Varna (Bulgaria) we have nice meeting. Many thanks!
Next year Varna conference will be in a new 4 stars SPA-hotel with very large 
mineral water pool, SPA procedures, and very good prices for ALL INCLUSIVE: 
EURO 36 for a single room and EURO 32 for person in double room.

***

About  Analogue and Discrete Computations as well as Continuity and 
Discontinuity as properties of information:
We still need clear understanding of WHAT IS INFORMATION to discover WHAT ARE 
ITS PROPERTIES and WHAT IS REALLY DONE DURING COMPUTATIONS.  
Do we process information or exchange and transform energy, or reconfigure 
mater objects?
I think, it is important one to define the basic point of view (clear 
definition) before discussing in details one or another aspect of information.
Of course, many different points of view are possible and, because of this, we 
may have many different information theories and corresponded implementations.

It will be very useful to prepare a list of definitions we will use (a part of 
all ones) with links to corresponded bibliography.
Mark Burgin, Wolfgang Hofkirchner, John D. Collier, Luciano Floridi,  as well 
as several other colleagues, already have published nice surveys or theories 
(incl. LIR of Joseph Brener!), so what we have to do now is to select 
definitions appropriate for our discussions. 
Is it possible ? 

Friendly regards
Krassimir
presid...@ithea.org  










-Original Message- 
From: Joseph Brenner 
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 4:14 PM 
To: fis ; Pedro C. Marijuan ; John Collier 
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation 

Dear John,

Thank you for this interesting perspective. Regarding the origin of the
limited band width of physical processes, could this have its origin in
some regularity other than circularity? For example, the continuous going
back and forth (the phrase is Botero's) between opposing attitudes or
states, alternately predominantly actual and potential?

All natural processes, then, have a capacity for continuous information
bearing. The problem is then the origin of /discreteness/, not only in your
countercase, which involves quantum particles, but at higher levels of
interactions between complex entities! For me, the only solution is that
continuity and discontinuity are properties of information which are
not totally separate from one another.

Perhaps Sri, there may be here the physical basis for the interplay
between analogue and digital that you see in Bialek's book, of which I have
only read the (free) introduction?

Best,

Joseph

- Original Message - 
From: John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za
To: fis@listas.unizar.es; Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS in Varna. Analogue Computation


Dear fis members,

I don't think that granularity per se is a
necessary basis for the application of
information theory to analog channels. In some
cases it might be, and I agree that studying the
relations between analog (continuous) and digital
(discrete) processes is likely to be both
interesting and productive. However the bandwidth
of an analog channel typically can be defined
even if there is no discreteness, for example if
the information bearing process consists of waves
so that the information bearing capacity is
limited by the wavelength. Virtually all physical
processes are cyclical in some way and thus have
a limited bandwidth. A countercase would be a
collision between particles that carries momentum
from one to another. I can't think offhand right
now (I just woke up), but I suspect that even in
such cases there is a finite amount of
information transferred. In any case, Shannon
discussed the bandwidth of continuous process channels. It is worth looking
at.

John

At 10:28 PM 2014-07-14, Srinandan Dasmahapatra wrote:
I think I agree with Joseph Brenner here.  Analogue computing is linked to
real processes, while living beings find ways of transducing information
out of dynamical states. The graininess that information theories rely on
to define measures may be directly linked to  physical limits in the
information carriers (such as photons) or they might be limitations of the
processing organism, extracting the sufficient difference that makes a
difference. And yes, there's often a too hasty rush to view analogue
computing through pixellated perspectives.

I'm not sure if this is well known to members of this list, but Bill
Bialek's biophysics text is a profound reflection of the interplay between
the analogue and the digital, with selection pressure forcing the
sufficiency of the grainy difference that makes a difference towards a
necessity for organisms, 

Re: [Fis] Praxotype

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear FIS colleagues,

Sorry to double a part of this text for some of you but the SPAM filter of
FIS server stopped my first letter.

It is good for me because now I have second “first” attempt for this week
in FIS mailing list.


About words and numbers:

Numbers are invented to make possible the abstraction from real word and,
of course, from names of things from real word.

NUMBERS ARE NAMES of abstract entities.

One may make abstraction from reality to numbers and vice versa – to
concretize some numbers to real entitles.
In every case he/she may found some regularity.
This game has no limits.

The main question is “what is usefulness of the results from the game?”.

In many cases, this question is without answer.

But what about “numbering” and “numerology” ?

Mapping words to numbers has no rational meaning for humans because
numerology is not science but mystic approach for influence over non
educated humans. I am specialist in numerology and immediatelly will ask
Why we use decimal system in this science, why not any other - binary,
hexadecimal, Roman numerals, etc. :-)

In the same time, mapping letters, words, and phrases to numbers
(numbering) permit us to realize (new type) computer systems which model
human brain memory.
Two weeks ago I speak about this at NIT 2013 Int. Conference in Madrid.
This approach we call “Natural Language Addressing”.
It solves some difficult problems with so called “big data”.


Abouit Praxotype:

Every scientific research needs concepts to be used in corresponded theory.

New concepts are useful if they could not be replaced by any other single
concept.

Because of this, proposing new concepts, they have to be accomplished with
a survey of known similar concepts already used in the same or other
scientific areas. I need such survey for Praxotype and Cognotype.

FIS is right place to provide such work and to propose common concepts and
definitions for Information Science.

Friendly regards
Krassimir

P.S. I apologize to all who assume concept “usefulness” as a forbidden one
:-)




From: Karl Javorszky
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 6:23 PM
To: Stanley N Salthe
Cc: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Praxotype

As Bob said experiences - words. Wittgenstein said words - numbers.
Pythagoras: world - numbers. Idea: organise numbers like you organise
words and see the world.

Question from Stan: experience - number ?.

Answer:

Like in Bobs analogy: water as a recognisable, recurring experience,
sufficiently interpersonal to be consistently named and understood that
this is what was meant by water. In our case, we have to communicate
recognisable, recurring expriences that relate to mental products that are
thought. The brain experiences by the sensory organs differently than by
thinking. Feelings that arise on thoughts, rather than on sensual
experiences, can also be circumscribed. This will happen in an abstract
way. The audience is invited to recognise a pattern of patterns.  These
can be communicated by ponting to a table and saying such is the place
here and then, these statements being numbers. One may want to be
perceptive to the experience that a point in space and a load on this
point can be directly read out of the natural numbers. We are presently
learning the common, unifying experience that a table - slightly more
complicated than a multiplication table - delivers exact data on what is
where and when. Therefrom, one will be accessing a logical experience of
order. Like the physiological experience water has got a common name,
the cultural invention is now to give the name order to a way of reading
the contents of a table that makes the concept explicable to all.

This is the stage we are at now.

As to the sufficient number of noumena - see Gordana - as compared to that
of words used by traditional languages: we are at learning to give names
to experiences, and the experiences themselves are not yet universally
connected to such an interpretation of numbers which allows saying this
experience is commonly shared and is called, e.g., 'order', or 'future'
or 'space-mass-time stitch-up by standard place changes'.

There is by far enough of numbers to represent all that could have ever
been said. In fact one needs rather only a few of the numbers. It is
mostly combinatorics, and Nature makes do with 3 places and 4 markers to
convey the message. One can simulate genetics in a crude way by using
twice 16 elements. Their relations are very intricate. They deserve a
closer look. There, one can experience that feeling of order about which a
rational dialogue is possible.


Bruno: non-computability is true

The physical facts must lie within the nature of the numbers. The
perception by the human is where the information is added: aha, this
relation means that such-and-such will be that way. The content is in the
numbers, and is not computational. It is indeed us that have to understand
the movement of the elements by applying to the set of beliefs that are
based on a+b=c the idea 

Re: [Fis] THE SOCIOTYPE: SOCIAL RELATIONSHIPS AND BEYOND

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Raquel, Loet and FIS Colleagues,

Yes, “global brain” is mystification.

One may find similarity between organization of society and human brain.

But this is the same kind of similarity as to mechanism, computer, clock, etc. .

Such similarities may be used to generate some new ideas or to break down old 
paradigms.

Social organization is a separate level of living matter hierarchy with 
specific “emerged” [Ashby] features.

There is no direct “smooth” transition from one level of living matter to 
another.

What is common for all levels of living matter organization are the 
“information phenomena and processes” which (of course!) are specific for 
different levels.

Because the information is a kind of reflection and the reflection is attribute 
of the matter.

If one ask me what is the “emerged” feature of human society, my answer will be 
“the natural languages” and information interaction based on linguistic 
constructions.
  
Friendly regards
Krassimir





From: Loet Leydesdorff 
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 5:11 PM
To: 'Raquel del Moral' ; fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] THE SOCIOTYPE: SOCIAL RELATIONSHIPS AND BEYOND

Loet, your criticism is very accurate, thanks. But I really think, as said 
Jorge, that our sociality has to have a fairly stable structure, that is to 
say, lower and upper limits that feed our mental wellbeing. It's not fixed, 
of course, but individuals become integral embodiments of emotions, and most of 
the active components of these emotions reside in our social environment. 
Evolutionarily we have developed this social dependence, and therefore the 
absence of such bonds, or the feeling of not having them, is devastating to our 
health --both physical and mental, as emphasized by numerous studies.

Dear Raquel: 

Expectations of social structure are extremely stable without materialization. 
For example, the expectation of the rule of law. These are anchored/reflected 
in codes of communications. One does not have to appeal to a “global brain”. It 
seems a mystification to me. 

Of course, the social expectations when codified leave footprints behind in the 
form of institutions. For example, courts and parliaments as places where one 
enacts the rule of law.

Best,

Loet

 




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Re: [Fis] FIS new course

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Raquel and FIS Colleagues,

Nice to see such activity on the FIS-land.

May I ask for more “simple English” in the explanations.

Main part of texts, I had received from FIS-list till now, are at the “very 
high scientific level” for which understanding one has to look for special 
knowledge.

As I understand, FIS is collaborative society of scientists, artists, young 
students ...
It is clear, we have to address all of our partners but not only one or two who 
understand us.
The latest case is for private correspondence.

I have more than 20 years practice as chairman and editor in chief of 
international scientific conferences, journals and books (see www.ithea.org ).
The conclusion is that “sophisticated texts” are not acceptable for large 
auditory.

Friendly regards
Krassimir




From: Raquel del Moral 
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 5:52 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS new course

Dear FISers,

We have been working in a couple of new ideas for the list. As Pedro has 
advanced you, for this new course we have planned two different kind of 
discussions, the thematic regular session (both junior and senior), and a new 
modality consisting in short discussions about interesting papers (we will 
arrange in the refurbished fis webpages a new platform to upload the papers). 
In relation to this, let me introduce you our new web master, David Sierra. We 
two will try to develop progressively the new changes, including the 
suggestions I have already received (Thanks!). 

About the sociotype session, in a few weeks I will have finished the opening 
text.

I hope we will have an exciting discussion!


All the best, 
Raquel



El 10/09/2013 18:05, Pedro C. Marijuan escribió: 
  Dear FISers,

  We start a new course, hopefully retaking our exciting exchanges and 
discussions. Next days Raquel will send all of us a few detailed proposals. 
Besides our chaired discussion sessions, we are also trying to develop a new 
type of sessions, shorter ones, for instance around interesting publications 
--sort of a Journal Club. We have planned a couple of tentative regular 
sessions (one around the sociotype, and another about Noumena... well next 
days we will send more info. Herein I am adding below an abstract we have just 
published about eukaryotic intelligence. Maybe we can discuss about it until 
the next session starts.

  best wishes to all

  ---Pedro

  -- 
  BioSystems 114 (2013) 8– 24
  On eukaryotic intelligence: Signaling system’s guidance in the evolution of 
multicellular organization
  Pedro C. Marijuán∗, Raquel del Moral, Jorge Navarro
  Bioinformation and Systems Biology Group, Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de 
la Salud (IACS), Zaragoza 50009, Spain

  Communication with the environment is an essential characteristic of the 
living cell, even more when
  considering the origins and evolution of multicellularity. A number of 
changes and tinkering inventions
  were necessary in the evolutionary transition between prokaryotic and 
eukaryotic cells, which finally
  made possible the appearance of genuine multicellular organisms. In the study 
of this process, however,
  the transformations experimented by signaling systems themselves have been 
rarely object of analysis,
  obscured by other more conspicuous biological traits: incorporation of 
mitochondria, segregated
  nucleus, introns/exons, flagellum, membrane systems, etc. Herein a discussion 
of the main avenues of
  change from prokaryotic to eukaryotic signaling systems and a review of the 
signaling resources and
  strategies underlying multicellularity will be attempted. In the expansion of 
prokaryotic signaling systems,
  four main systemic resources were incorporated: molecular tools for detection 
of solutes, molecular
  tools for detection of solvent (Donnan effect), the apparatuses of cell-cycle 
control, and the combined
  system endocytosis/cytoskeleton. The multiple kinds of enlarged, mixed 
pathways that emerged made
  possible the eukaryotic revolution in morphological and physiological 
complexity. The massive incorporation
  of processing resources of electro-molecular nature, derived from the osmotic 
tools counteracting
  the Donnan effect, made also possible the organization of a computational 
tissue with huge information
  processing capabilities: the nervous system. In the central nervous systems 
of vertebrates, and particularly
  in humans, neurons have achieved both the highest level of 
molecular-signaling complexity and
  the highest degree of information-processing adaptability. Theoretically, it 
can be argued that there has
  been an accelerated pace of evolutionary change in eukaryotic signaling 
systems, beyond the other general
  novelties introduced by eukaryotic cells in their handling of DNA processes. 
Under signaling system’s
  guidance, the whole processes of transcription, alternative splicing, mobile 
elements, and other elements
  of domain recombination 

Re: [Fis] FIS new course

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Plamen and colleagues,
Sorry to use my second attempt this week for so short remark but what to do?

I never seen Olympic games with two or three participants.
And never seen “sophisticated” Olympic games like chess.

If we want to be understandable we have to explain our ideas clearly and to use 
common language!

Best regards
Krassimir




From: Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov 
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 11:33 PM
To: Krassimir Markov 
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS new course

Well, I agree Krassimir, but if we follow that simplification pattern we are 
lowering the education level our fellow citizen. 
Recently, even Indian based editorial services are looking for high-end 
qualified scientific journal editors. There is no way around this. Newton and 
Leibniz were speaking even more complex language than we speak today. I am 
against dumbing down of science. 

This would mean Olympic Games without records. Who would like to participate?

Young fellows consume sufficient junk nutrition from the mass media and I think 
we have to keep the status quo level.
The Pythagoreans were even more serious in following this line, sorry.

Best wishes,

Plamen




On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 8:29 PM, Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com wrote:

  Dear Raquel and FIS Colleagues,

  Nice to see such activity on the FIS-land.

  May I ask for more “simple English” in the explanations.

  Main part of texts, I had received from FIS-list till now, are at the “very 
high scientific level” for which understanding one has to look for special 
knowledge.

  As I understand, FIS is collaborative society of scientists, artists, young 
students ...
  It is clear, we have to address all of our partners but not only one or two 
who understand us.
  The latest case is for private correspondence.

  I have more than 20 years practice as chairman and editor in chief of 
international scientific conferences, journals and books (see www.ithea.org ).
  The conclusion is that “sophisticated texts” are not acceptable for large 
auditory.

  Friendly regards
  Krassimir




  From: Raquel del Moral 
  Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 5:52 PM
  To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
  Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS new course

  Dear FISers,

  We have been working in a couple of new ideas for the list. As Pedro has 
advanced you, for this new course we have planned two different kind of 
discussions, the thematic regular session (both junior and senior), and a new 
modality consisting in short discussions about interesting papers (we will 
arrange in the refurbished fis webpages a new platform to upload the papers). 
In relation to this, let me introduce you our new web master, David Sierra. We 
two will try to develop progressively the new changes, including the 
suggestions I have already received (Thanks!). 

  About the sociotype session, in a few weeks I will have finished the opening 
text.

  I hope we will have an exciting discussion!


  All the best, 
  Raquel



  El 10/09/2013 18:05, Pedro C. Marijuan escribió: 
Dear FISers,

We start a new course, hopefully retaking our exciting exchanges and 
discussions. Next days Raquel will send all of us a few detailed proposals. 
Besides our chaired discussion sessions, we are also trying to develop a new 
type of sessions, shorter ones, for instance around interesting publications 
--sort of a Journal Club. We have planned a couple of tentative regular 
sessions (one around the sociotype, and another about Noumena... well next 
days we will send more info. Herein I am adding below an abstract we have just 
published about eukaryotic intelligence. Maybe we can discuss about it until 
the next session starts.

best wishes to all

---Pedro

-- 
BioSystems 114 (2013) 8– 24
On eukaryotic intelligence: Signaling system’s guidance in the evolution of 
multicellular organization
Pedro C. Marijuán∗, Raquel del Moral, Jorge Navarro
Bioinformation and Systems Biology Group, Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de 
la Salud (IACS), Zaragoza 50009, Spain

Communication with the environment is an essential characteristic of the 
living cell, even more when
considering the origins and evolution of multicellularity. A number of 
changes and tinkering inventions
were necessary in the evolutionary transition between prokaryotic and 
eukaryotic cells, which finally
made possible the appearance of genuine multicellular organisms. In the 
study of this process, however,
the transformations experimented by signaling systems themselves have been 
rarely object of analysis,
obscured by other more conspicuous biological traits: incorporation of 
mitochondria, segregated
nucleus, introns/exons, flagellum, membrane systems, etc. Herein a 
discussion of the main avenues of
change from prokaryotic to eukaryotic signaling systems and a review of the 
signaling resources and
strategies underlying multicellularity will be attempted. In the expansion

Re: [Fis] A young science?

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Zong-Rong,

I am very interested to receive your files.
Please send them to :
mar...@foibg.com 

Let me remember that ITHEA ISS support a web page

http://ithea.org/fis/

at which we may publish files to be downloaded from all FIS-ers.

If you agree, I will add your files at this web page.

Our point of view about theory is given in 
Markov Kr., Kr. Ivanova, I.Mitov. Basic Structure of the General Information 
Theory. IJ ITA, Vol.14, No.: 1, ITHEA, 2007. pp.5-19
and is available at FIS page too.

Friendly regards
Krassimir



From: Zong-Rong Li 
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 3:43 AM
To: fis 
Subject: Re: [Fis] A young science?

Dear all,
Please open attached file.
Best,
Zong-Rong

-- Origin message --
From：Raquel del Moral rdelmoral.i...@aragon.es
To：fis fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject：[Fis] A young science?
Date：2013-06-07 00:07:31

Dear all,

Last week I posted into the list to present myself as a new collaborator
in the Fis secretariat, now I would like to talk about my other
profile: I am a graduate student, making the PhD in neurosocial
information. I am working in the structure of human relationships,
social bonds, and in the dynamics of person-to-person communication from
an evolutionary point of view (I have done my degree on biology).

From hereon, I think that PhD students should try to enter into Fis
discussions more often (I am sure that among the 300 FISers there
should be several tens of PhDs!). We should be able to post our own
ideas and to coordinate a junior session too. I think FIS forums are a
great platform to exchange ideas and they could be very enriching to
develop our Theses. At least I will risk to post the central ideas of my
own thesis in a few weeks, with the hope that a good debate could be
established... isn't the new information science a young science??


Best,
Raquel

--
-
Raquel del Moral
Grupo de Bioinformacion / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco 13, 50009 Zaragoza

Tfno. +34 976 71 44 76
e-mail.rdelmoral.i...@aragon.es
-

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[Fis] Informatics vs. Mathematics

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear FIS Colleagues,
It is really pleasure to read your posts in this exciting mail list.
During the time I am subscribed in (Thanks to Pedro for inviting me!) I have 
read interesting and very useful ideas.
Now I think is the right time to put one very important question: 
What is the main difference between Informatics and Mathematics?
In other words: What is the main difference between “Information object” and 
“Mathematical one” ?
Well, I nave answer (of course, from my point of view):
The main difference is the Subject!
Mathematical theories totally avoid the subject and subjective interpretation 
of mathematical structures and operations.
It doesn’t mater who will interpret the mathematical constructions ( like 
y=f(x) ) – now and after 1000 years the interpretation MUST be the same.
In Informatics it is just the opposite – it is of crucial importance who will 
interpret the information structures and operations.
Let remember the Turing Machine, the basic Subject of Informatics with which 
all interpretations of algorithms have to be compared.
The philosophical conclusion is simple – the information phenomena (as 
reflections) exist in the reality but may be interpreted ONLY by the Subjects.
In other words, the information is kind of reflection for which the CONCRETE 
Subject have appropriate interpretation (an evidence what is reflected).
Subject may be a human, an animal, an electronic device, etc. i.e. natural or 
artificial entity.
In all cases, the “reflection” (or “pattern”, if you prefer) has to be 
recognized by the Subject to became “information”. 
 
Friendly regards
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Re: [Fis] the intelligent agents

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Gordana and colleagues,

You are right, the concept ‘agent’ is just the abstraction of our understanding 
about the active entities which has possibility to be ‘intelligent’.
Below I remember a short text about it:

The definition of the concept intelligence was given in [1]. It follows from 
the “General Information Theory” [2] and especially from the “Theory of Infos” 
[3].

The intelligence is a synergetic combination of:

–  (primary) activity for external interaction. This characteristic is 
basic for all open systems. Activity for external interaction means possibility 
to reflect the influences from environment and to realize impact on the 
environment;

–  information reflection and information memory, i.e. possibility for 
collecting the information. It is clear; memory is basic characteristic of 
intelligence for “the ability to learn”;

–  information self-reflection, i.e. possibility for generating secondary 
information. The generalization (creating abstractions) is well known 
characteristic of intelligence. Sometimes, we concentrate our investigations 
only to this very important possibility, which is a base for learning and 
recognition. The same is pointed for the intelligent system: “To reach its 
objective it chooses an action based on its experiences. It can learn by 
generalizing the experiences it has stored in its memories”;

–  information expectation i.e. the (secondary) information activity for 
internal or external contact. This characteristic means that the prognostic 
knowledge needs to be generated in advance and during the interaction with the 
environment the received information is collected and compared with one 
generated in advance. This not exists in usual definitions but it is the 
foundation-stone for definition of the concept intelligence;

–  resolving the information expectation. This correspond to that the 
intelligence is the ability to reach ones objectives. The target is a model 
of a future state (of the system) which needs to be achieved and corresponding 
to it prognostic knowledge needs to be resolved by incoming information.

In summary, the intelligence is creating and resolving the information 
expectation [1]. 

The concept intelligence is a common approach for investigating the natural 
and artificial intelligent agents. It is clear; the reality is more complex 
than one definition. 



Presented understanding of intelligence is important for realizations of the 
intelligent computer systems. The core element of such systems needs to be 
possibility for creating the information expectation as well as the one for 
resolving it. The variety of real implementations causes corresponded diversity 
in the software but the common principles will exist in all systems. 
Summarizing, the artificial system is intelligent if it has:

–  Activity for external interaction; 

–  Information reflection and information memory; 

–  Possibility for generalization (creating abstractions); 

–  Information expectation; 

–  Resolving the information expectation.



At the end, the five main problems of the science “Artificial Intelligence” are 
to develop more and more “smart”:

–  sensors and actuators - to realize external interaction;

–  memory structures - to learn; 

–  generalization algorithms - to make abstractions; 

–  prognostic knowledge generation - to create information expectation;

–  resolving the information expectation - to reach objectives.



Bibliography



1.  I. Mitov, Kr. Markov, Kr. Ivanova. The Intelligence. Plenary paper. Third 
International Scientific Conference “Informatics in the Scientific Knowledge”. 
University Publishing House, VFU “Chernorizets Hrabar”, 2010. ISSN: 1313-4345. 
pp. 7-13

2.  Kr. Markov, Kr. Ivanova, I. Mitov. Basic Structure of the General 
Information Theory. Int. Journal “Information Theories and Applications”, 
Vol.14/2007, No.:1, pp.5-19.

3.  Kr. Markov, Kr. Ivanova, I. Mitov. Theory of Infos. Int. Book Series 
Information Science  Computing – Book No: 13. Intelligent Information and 
Engineering Systems, Sofia, 2009, pp.9-16.




Friendly regards

Krassimir







From: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic 
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:06 PM
To: karl.javors...@gmail.com 
Cc: Pedro C. Marijuan ; Krassimir Markov ; Joseph Brenner ; Loet Leydesdorff ; 
bob logan ; fis 
Subject: RE: FIS Information and the Eye of the Beholder

My interpretation of Krassimir’s words:

“In other words, the information is kind of reflection for which the CONCRETE 
Subject have appropriate interpretation (an evidence what is reflected). 
Subject may be a human, an animal, an electronic device, etc. i.e. natural or 
artificial entity.“

is that by “subject” Krassimir refers to an agent, animate or inanimate.

 

And an agent is anything with ability to act (on its own behalf).

It can be a neutron.

For a neutron electric field makes no difference.

But nuclear force can make

Re: [Fis] POSTS ON TERRY' S BOOK - PRESENTED BY DEACON

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Gordana, Pedro ans FIS colleagues,

Now I am too busy with the summer conferences and have no time to explain in 
deep what I think about Terry’s book.

Shortly I can say that many already clear phenomena in the book are presented 
as “just invented or to be invented”.

At the first place the idea of “constraint” which is well know phenomena of 
valences and processes of resolving them.

Yes, Pedro, the “symmetry” is the right way because it closely correlate with 
well known “reflection” :-)
And from many years there exist “Theory of reverberation” concerned to it.

The conference is just the place where we may discuss all ideas.

Friendly regards
Krassimir






From: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic 
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 1:08 PM
To: Pedro C. Marijuan 
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] POSTS ON TERRY' S BOOK - PRESENTED BY DEACON

Dear Pedro,

 

I am sure that Terry Deacon would agree with you – the book is incomplete, and 
it leaves host of open questions.

But that is what makes it attractive. It is a book that moves and provokes 
thoughts. 

So the idea to organize a conference about Incomplete Nature is a very good 
idea.

 

All the best,

Gordana

 

 

 



Dr Dr Gordana Dodig Crnkovic, 

Associate Professor

School of Innovation, Design and Engineering

Mälardalen University

Sweden

http://www.mrtc.mdh.se/~gdc/

 

Organizer of the Symposium on Natural/Unconventional Computing, 
the Turing Centenary  World Congress of AISB/IACAP

https://sites.google.com/site/naturalcomputingaisbiacap2012  

 

 

 

 

From: Pedro C. Marijuan [mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es] 
Sent: den 4 maj 2012 11:35
To: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
Cc: Hector Zenil; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] POSTS ON TERRY' S BOOK - PRESENTED BY DEACON

 

Dear Gordana, Hector and colleagues,

I keep thinking that the theme of absences is really fundamental for 
advancing the foundations of information science, but I am disappointed  by the 
way Terry has oriented the book. Both style and contents are inadequate for my 
taste. He continues to do what he did in previous papers, highly promising ones 
(as some parties discussed in past messages we had in the list); pointing to 
exciting new absential aspects but finally focusing in the physical ones 
(without much new enlightenment). 

In my opinion the most appropriate direction to advance an absential calculus 
of sorts is the language of SYMMETRY. Several parties in this list have already 
discussed the theme (me included). Symmetry breaking and symmetry restoration 
and related formal tools are the way to tackle the absential dimension in the 
genuine informational entities: cells, nervous systems, societies (and the 
vacuum!!). To reiterate that the fundamental point is not about computation, 
but about self-construction. Those absences refer to gaps,  functional 
voids in the self-construction cycles/processes of those entities --there 
might be 'natural computation' associated, eg, in cellular signaling systems, 
but finally the ruling aspect is about self-maintenance and reproduction. We 
could also enlist McLuhan in this critical position regarding the 
physicalist-computationalist interpretations, I think.

So, after a glance in the whole book, I am now in the detailed reading of 
Chapter 4, with mounting disappointment... Incomplete Book!! Deeper 
exploration needed!! 

best

---Pedro



Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic escribió: 

Dear Hector, This might be a good way, Terry Deacon presenting his 
book:http://fora.tv/2012/04/18/Incomplete_Nature_How_Mind_Emerged_From_Matter  
What I find fascinating with this book is the whole dynamical framework,from 
thermodynamics, to morphodynamics and teleodynamics.See also: 
http://www.american.edu/cas/economics/info-metrics/pdf/upload/Beavers-Oct-2011-presentation.pdf
 For sure, Deacon is not computationalist and his ideas of information and 
computation are pretty classical ones.But it does not matter in this context. 
For a computationalist all three kinds of dynamics are computational 
processes,and corresponding structures are informational structures. With best 
wishes,Gordana  -Original Message-From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es 
[mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Hector ZenilSent: den 27 
april 2012 22:40To: Pedro C. MarijuanCc: fis@listas.unizar.esSubject: Re: [Fis] 
POSTS ON TERRY' S BOOK Could someone summarize why Terrence Deacon's book is 
such a presumedbreakthrough judging by the buzz it has generated among 
FISenthusiasts? Thanks.  On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Pedro C. 
Marijuanmailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es wrote:  Dear colleagues, Krassimir 
Markov's suggestion is excellent. Next year we could have aFIS conference in 
his place, centered in the exploration of the new infoavenue drafted by 
Terrence Deacon's book, and started by Stuart Kauffmanand others. Previously my 
suggestion is that we have a regulardiscussion session (like the 

[Fis] Conferences in Varna

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,

Every year, including this, we organize special conference on FIS called 
GIT from General Information Theory.
This year it will be organized, too.
We received interesting contributions, for instance from FIS-ers Mark Burgin 
and Karl Yavorsky (who already have submitted theirs GIT 2012 papers).
It is still possible to make submissions for GIT 2012.

For the next years we are ready to meet you again.

Usually, a good conference has to be organized at least two years in 
advance.
Because of this now is just the right moment to start !

Welcome in Varna and Bulgaria !

Friendly regards
Krassimir

PS: Let remember the web address:

www.ithea.org

or simply

ithea.org






-Original Message- 
From: Pedro C. Marijuan
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 1:09 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es
Cc: lricha...@ocad.ca ; stephen.guaste...@marquette.edu ; 
jtrevira...@faculty.ocadu.ca ; stukauff...@gmail.com ; 
stuart.kauff...@uvm.edu ; dea...@berkeley.edu ; gvanalst...@faculty.ocadu.ca
Subject: [Fis] POSTS ON TERRY' S BOOK

Dear colleagues,

Krassimir Markov's suggestion is excellent. Next year we could have a
FIS conference in his place, centered in the exploration of the new info
avenue drafted by Terrence Deacon's book, and started by Stuart Kauffman
and others. Previously my suggestion is that we have a regular
discussion session (like the many ones had in this list). A couple of
voluntary chairs, and an opening text would be needed. Sure Bob Logan
could handle this (perhaps off list) and we would have a fresh
discussion session for the coming months.

Technical Note: the current messages are not entering in the list; the
filter is rejecting them as there are too many addresses together.
Please, send the fis address single, and all the others separated or as
as Cc. Otherwise I will have to enter them one by one.

best

---Pedro
(fis list coordination)

-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Telf: 34 976 71 3526 ( 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-


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Re: [Fis] Discussion of Information Science Education

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Gordana, Marcin and FIS Colleagues,

I think we all talk about a new interdisciplinary area, already called:

“Intelligence Science”

Please see:
http://www.intsci.ac.cn/en/index.html

Maybe it is good to name our summer school:

“Foundations of Intelligence Science”

Please comment this.

Friendly regards
Krassimir







From: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 8:38 PM
To: Joseph Brenner
Cc: m...@aiu.ac.jp ; Krassimir Markov
Subject: RE: [Fis] Discussion of Information Science Education


Dear Joseph,

Now I have no right to post to the list, but I anyway want to say that I of 
course agree with you, and also that Loet made a good practical point.

We talk about two different things and I believe it could be useful to make 
this distinction as clear as possible.

If we (FIS = Foundations of Information Science) are something different 
from what is called “Information Science” and funded, supported by 40 
journals etc.

we must be able to show definitely the distinction and why this is 
important.



It also seems to me that what Marcin and Krassimir say is important, as we 
(FIS) see this synthetic potential to connect different seemingly disparate 
fields like

1. Nature

2. Living organisms

3. Society



That which “Information Science” is not interested in.

This is what it is about according to Bertram C. Brookes:

The foundations of information science Part I. Philosophical aspects

It is first argued that a niche for information science, unclaimed by any 
other discipline, can be found by admitting the near-autonomy of Popper's 
World III - the world of objective knowledge. The task of information 
science can then be defined as the exploration of this world of objective 
knowledge which is an extension of, but is distinct from, the world of 
documentation and librarianship. The Popperian ontology then has to be 
extended to admit the concept of information and its relation to subjective 
and objective know ledge. The spaces of Popper's three worlds are then con 
sidered. It is argued that cognitive and physical spaces are not identical 
and that this lack of identity creates problems for the proper 
quantification of information phenomena.

http://jis.sagepub.com/content/2/3-4/125.short



So this information is about human knowledge, as Marcin says.

But that is not the only or even the main interest of FIS.





Maybe “Information Science” is an already established name and maybe we have 
no chance to change it given existing structures of research communities.



But if we would insist that we work on the foundations of information which 
underlie all information (be it in inanimate nature, living beings or 
societies) that may make good practical sense.

“Foundations of Information” (and not “Foundations of Information Science”!) 
seems to be still free.

Pragmatically, I would insist that what we do is not Information science but 
Foundations of Information.

Of course, one may expect confusions again, but I would start from placing 
all those different fields in some boxes and say that we have a box of our 
own that no one else
dealing with information (in scientific way) have covered so far.

And I would insist on this synthetic capacity of information as FIS 
discusses it, which Marcin already pointed out.



Best, Gordana



PS

Krassimir, I think summer school is right idea and it would be good if 
discussion can help to understand what to present.







@bluewin.ch]
Sent: den 4 december 2011 16:19
To: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic; Loet Leydesdorff
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Discussion of Information Science Education







Dear Gordana and Loet,







Ref.: Cat, Jordi. 2007. The Unity of Science. Stanford Encyclopedia of 
Philosophy.







I think you are being too defensive vis à vis the conventional idea of 
science. The authority of people who have decided to what information 
science must be limited may be open to criticism as reductionist, and there 
are views (see attached) that emphasize epistemological and ontological 
pluralism. As Cat says, contra epistemological monism, there is no single 
methodology that supports a single criterion of scientificity, nor a 
universal domain of its applicability.







To keep the concept of information science as broad as possible, however, 
implies a great deal of individual responsibility to insure high 
intellectual standards, in or out of the mainstream. The definition of any 
science should be determined by these and not by what is funded.







Cheers,







Joseph



- Original Message - 



From: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic



To: Loet Leydesdorff



Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es



Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 10:08 PM



Subject: Re: [Fis] Discussion of Information Science Education







Dear Loet,



I think you made an important point.

It is really a problem if we use the same term “Information Science” for 
different things.

What “Information Science” in the Web-of-Science's

Re: [Fis] Discussion of Information Science Education

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Marcin,

You are quite right: Your Theory is absolutely correct !

As well as the Theory of Mark, of course as main, and as all others, at the 
first place - the Theory of Shannon !

Every theory represents any specific point of view and from its point of 
view it is correct.

What we have to do is to agree that:

1. The variety is not bad but very stimulating for reasoning, and
2. Independence is absolutely needed for growing our knowledge and 
developing the science.

During my work on information theory I found at least three areas of 
information phenomena (if you remember my presentation at GIT in Varna):
1. Nature
2. Living organisms
3. Society

All they have one common occurrence - reflection.
This way it is clear that information has to investigated in correspondence 
of it.

The education has to be turned toward this common phenomena, which had been 
recognized by the ancient philosophers.

Friendly regards

Krassimir




-Original Message- 
From: m...@aiu.ac.jp
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 12:57 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Discussion of Information Science Education

Dear Colleagues:
Thank you for many interesting contributions in the first day
of the discussion.
I will try to answer in one entry to three postings from Stan,
Loet, and Steven.

1. Specialization in Education (Answer to Stan)

There was a period of overwhelming tendency to increase
specialization of education. However, the ideals of Liberal
Arts Education are coming back. I can give you example of
Japan, but I know that it's a global phenomenon. When we
opened our university seven years ago it was just a beginning
of the return. Our university has its Japanese name
International Liberal Arts University (kokusai kyoyou daigaku
- but kyoyou is based on Japanese tradition of personality
cultivation, not European university tradition) and was
designed to develop intellectual autonomy and the ability to
learn rather than to specialize in any particular subject.
This was the selling point which in short time gave us one
of top ten (or top five) ratings among more than 300
universities in Japan. Now, all leading universities in Japan
declare this style of educational philosophy.
Many American universities have been faithful to the ideal of
what is called there Liberal Education which was interpreted
in various ways, but was always opposed to excessive
specialization.
In all variety of educational philosophies of Liberal Arts,
there is a recognition of the need for the integration of
curricula and for the crossing disciplinary borders.
This creates a niche for Information Science to develop as a
domain integrating different parts of the curriculum.

2. Reinventing of a Wheel (Answer to Loet)

I agree with Gordana, that there are ways to find place for
what FIS is about in curriculum.
Here is a related, but little bit different issue. There are
already some routines in using terms related to information.
Information Theory is typically understood as mathematical
theory initiated by Shannon, which as already observed by
Carnap and Bar-Hillel in 1952 does not say much about
information, but about its transmission.
Information Science as Loet pointed out in the States is
associated quite commonly with Library Science, but actually
is more about knowledge management (it's my opinion). For
quite long time American journals related to library
associations were the only places where you could publish non-
mathematical articles about general concept of information. No
wonder that Library Science in 1990's inherited title for
representing all studies of information.
In Japan, Information Science is considered a different name
for Computer Science. There is no category in Japanese
Ministry of Education system where you can apply for grant to
do research in Information Science. You have to use category
basically meaning computer science.

Now, we can think about using different name for the
discipline (Information Studies), or we can try to promote the
view that Information Science is broader than it is usually
recognized. A generic course in Information Science for all
students (within General Education, or in Liberal Arts
curriculum) could serve this role to propagate the view that
study of information includes many different perspectives on
the information phenomena, and that it requires a broad,
uniting philosophical reflection on information.

3. Do we know what we are talking about? (Answer to Steven)

Sometimes I doubt it, when I read FIS discussions. Of course,
I am joking. The unity to all disciplines are given by their
philosophy and their methods, not by the definitions of the
concepts involved. I am a mathematician and theoretical
physicist. I do not know two physicists who would share
exactly the same definitions of all concepts. Even more, I do
not know two physicists who would agree what exactly physics
is.
I do not see any problem in discussing ten different concepts
of information, as long as there is a common 

Re: [Fis] Discussion of Information Science Education

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear  Marcin, Gordana, and FIS colleagues,

It is impossible for me not to answer of such very important and, I think, 
on time proposal.

What we have to do?
Of course, to establish common paradigm !?!
The great problem here is that every author stay on his own position and do 
not accept the others.
Well, I hope this is temporally (till corresponded persons pas away) but it 
is not so short period.

The decision is coming himself:

We have to start not with building common paradigm accepted all over the 
world,
but with writing and teaching History of information Science and Theories,
where most popular authors may be presented starting from the ancient 
centuries.

Such surveys are available in many monographs, for instance Mark made very 
nice one.
Greetings to Gordana, Mark and other colleagues for the new book 
INFORMATION AND COMPUTATION !
Handbook on the Philosophy of Information is another example.

***

At this point I want to stop this explanation and to congratulate Pedro for 
his new very important position!

Dear Pedro, please receive my greetings for your best work, which is now 
recognized by electing you as Scientific Director of your Institute !

***

The idea of Pedro to organize Summer School of FIS is very appropriate.
Let start this way.

Varna is nice place for such event.
In Spain, during the NIT 2011,  we had discussed it but we had no 
possibilities to start advertising this idea.
Now is the right time.

Following proposition of Pedro we have to establish a lecturers' group,
which will present main areas and theories of Information Science.

Please see the preliminary variant of ITA 2012 First Call given at:

http://www.ithea.org/fis/ITA2012-cfp1.pdf

In the time table we reserve five days for GIT and Summer School on FIS.
( The Summer School on FIS may occupy more days than GIT conference,
i.e from June 25 until June 29, 2012.
It depends of quantity of presentations.  )

Who has possibility to participate and what will he/she present ?

Dear members of PC of GIT Int.Conf.,
Please help us to prepare a good program for the Summer School on FIS and to 
have as more participants as possible !

Dear Colleagues from FIS,
Please be invited to take part as lecturers and/or participants is this very 
important and, I hope, pleasant for everybody, event !

Friendly regards
Krassimir






-Original Message- 
From: m...@aiu.ac.jp
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 2:23 PM
To: PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ ; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: [Fis] Discussion of Information Science Education

Dear Colleagues:
There are some questions which periodically return to FIS
discussions without conclusive answers. For instance: What is
information? However, the lack of consensus regarding central
concept is not an obstacle in the development of Information
Science. There is no commonly accepted answer to the question
What is life? But, this does not threaten the identity of
Biology.

Information Science has not yet achieved a status of a
commonly recognized discipline. It is frequently confused with
Computer Science, because of the term Informatics which in
Europe denotes what in the US is called Computing, or with
Library
Science and sometimes even with Philosophy of Information,
as visible from the Handbook on the Philosophy of Information
http://www.illc.uva.nl/HPI/ where philosophy and science
interleave
on many levels.

Information Science will never receive recognition without an
organized effort of research community to introduce its
philosophy,
goals, methods, and achievements to the general audience.

Books and articles popularizing the theme of information as
a subject of independent study do not have big enough
circulation to be sufficient in establishing an identity of
the discipline. The only effective way is to introduce
Information Science as a subject of education at the college
level for students who do not necessarily want to specialize
in this direction.

Certainly, introduction of a new subject to curriculum is not
easy, but it is possible. After all, Information Science is a
perfect tool for integration of curriculum, especially in the
context of Liberal Arts education. Which other concept, if not
information, can be applied in all possible contexts of
education?

Now, the question is whether we are ready to come out with a
syllabus for such a course acceptable for all of us, those who
are involved in the subject, and those who aren't, but
participate in the development of curricula. Can we overcome
differences between our views on the definition of
information, on the relationship of information understood in
a general way to its particular manifestations in other
disciplines?

Since the course (or courses) should present an identity of
the discipline of Information Science, it is very important
that we are convinced about the authentic existence of a large
enough common ground. Can we develop a map of this territory?
Can we pool resources to establish foundations for a 

[Fis] Fw: The General Information Theory of Sunik

[Krassimir Markov]

-Original Message- 
From: boris.sunik
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:26 PM
To: 'Krassimir Markov'
Subject: RE: [Fis] Fw: The General Information Theory of Sunik




Dear Krassimir,
Below are my points regarding discussed issues.

Regards,
Boris Sunik

1. I never claimed that computer algorithms could provide all you know, and
all you need to know about information. To the contrary, I consider this
statement as wrong.

My idea is that the relevant way of information representation and
information explanation consists of viewing the real world in the same
conceptual coordinates, which are used for representation of computer
algorithms.

IMHO, this approach exactly matches the computing experience of the modern
world. Computer languages are not able to express any information except the
rules of manipulation with the bits and bytes of the computer storage. BUT,
these very limited abilities are nevertheless sufficient not only for the
controlling very different machines but also for the manipulating human
beings.

Why a computer is that efficient? It is while computer languages adequately
model the real world. Among other this means that data designated in
computer languages coincide with the outside real  objects as the names
coincide with the designated objects.
Hence follows the idea of creating the programming-language-like-notation,
which allows words directly designating external objects.

2. Brain: Are Neurons and bits really that different?) that are the proof of
the entire premise are unable to be proved, have no tests or evidence and
are taken as self-evident.

In my opinion, no proofs for that are necessary. The solution is to build
the knowledge system based on this premise and see whether it will
practically work. Neither C++ no other practically used programming
languages ever got any formal proofs of their functionality. The usability
of a language depends not on any formal checks but on whether they could be
effectively used in practice. I mean TMI could practically be used and hope
it will.

3. definition of meaning

In TMI semantics and meaning are synonyms. The  characteristic for TMI
understanding of semantics is firstly considered at the end of Problem
Statement. Another place is 2.6 where I deliberately chose the simplest
systems, because they are the best in showing the approach's basics. The
approach itself could be applied on arbitrary complex systems.

In a few words: ―  meaning of the linguistic item is the branch(s) of
algorithm(s) associated with this item.




-Original Message-
From: Krassimir Markov [mailto:mar...@foibg.com]
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 22:32 PM
To: boris.sunik
Subject: Fw: [Fis] Fw: The General Information Theory of Sunik



-Original Message-
From: Gavin Ritz
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 11:22 PM
To: 'Steven Ericsson-Zenith' ; 'Joseph Brenner'
Cc: 'Foundations of Information Science'
Subject: Re: [Fis] Fw: The General Information Theory of Sunik

I agree with you both.

The declarative statements (4 statements in 2.4.1 Digital Computer versus
Brain: Are Neurons and bits really that different?) that are the proof of
the entire premise are unable to be proved, have no tests or evidence and
are taken as self evident.

This path is a dead end.

Regards
Gavin



The document seems extremely confused to me. This is not least because the
author does not appear to present a clear definition of the terms in the
title or the expression of subject in the work. In particular, I can find no
definition of meaning other than the one presented in a quote from Shannon
and the subsequent use of the term is confused to say the least. Similarly,
the term semantic is not clearly defined and abused. The same goes for
other terms such as knowledge.

So I take an even harsher view than Joseph since it is not even a good
representative of the view that computer algorithms can provide all you
know, and all you need to know. The definitive representative of that view
is Stephen Wolfram's book A New Kind Of Science, and while I have my
problems with the theory in the book, it is - at least - well defined.

With respect,
Steven


On Oct 3, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote:

 Dear Krassimir,

 Thank you for bringing this document to our attention, for
 completeness. I

 would have wished, however, that you had made some comment on it,
 putting
it
 into relation with your own work and, for example, that of Mark
 Burgin, which are dismissed out of hand.

 From my point of view, Sunik's work is another one of those major
 steps backwards to an earlier, easier time when it was claimed that
 computer algorithms could provide all you know, and all you need to
 know about information. One example of a phrase the author presents
 as involving meaning is Peter's shirt size. . .

 From a methodological standpoint, I think it underlines, /a
 contrario/,
the
 danger of focus on a single approach to information. My current idea,
which
 I propose for discussion

[Fis] Fw: Fw: The General Information Theory of Sunik

[Krassimir Markov]

-Original Message- 
From: boris.sunik
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:26 PM
To: 'Krassimir Markov'
Subject: RE: [Fis] Fw: The General Information Theory of Sunik




Dear Krassimir,
Below are my points regarding discussed issues.

Regards,
Boris Sunik

1. I never claimed that computer algorithms could provide all you know, and
all you need to know about information. To the contrary, I consider this
statement as wrong.

My idea is that the relevant way of information representation and
information explanation consists of viewing the real world in the same
conceptual coordinates, which are used for representation of computer
algorithms.

IMHO, this approach exactly matches the computing experience of the modern
world. Computer languages are not able to express any information except the
rules of manipulation with the bits and bytes of the computer storage. BUT,
these very limited abilities are nevertheless sufficient not only for the
controlling very different machines but also for the manipulating human
beings.

Why a computer is that efficient? It is while computer languages adequately
model the real world. Among other this means that data designated in
computer languages coincide with the outside real  objects as the names
coincide with the designated objects.
Hence follows the idea of creating the programming-language-like-notation,
which allows words directly designating external objects.

2. Brain: Are Neurons and bits really that different?) that are the proof of
the entire premise are unable to be proved, have no tests or evidence and
are taken as self-evident.

In my opinion, no proofs for that are necessary. The solution is to build
the knowledge system based on this premise and see whether it will
practically work. Neither C++ no other practically used programming
languages ever got any formal proofs of their functionality. The usability
of a language depends not on any formal checks but on whether they could be
effectively used in practice. I mean TMI could practically be used and hope
it will.

3. definition of meaning

In TMI semantics and meaning are synonyms. The  characteristic for TMI
understanding of semantics is firstly considered at the end of Problem
Statement. Another place is 2.6 where I deliberately chose the simplest
systems, because they are the best in showing the approach's basics. The
approach itself could be applied on arbitrary complex systems.

In a few words: ―  meaning of the linguistic item is the branch(s) of
algorithm(s) associated with this item.




-Original Message-
From: Krassimir Markov [mailto:mar...@foibg.com]
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 22:32 PM
To: boris.sunik
Subject: Fw: [Fis] Fw: The General Information Theory of Sunik



-Original Message-
From: Gavin Ritz
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 11:22 PM
To: 'Steven Ericsson-Zenith' ; 'Joseph Brenner'
Cc: 'Foundations of Information Science'
Subject: Re: [Fis] Fw: The General Information Theory of Sunik

I agree with you both.

The declarative statements (4 statements in 2.4.1 Digital Computer versus
Brain: Are Neurons and bits really that different?) that are the proof of
the entire premise are unable to be proved, have no tests or evidence and
are taken as self evident.

This path is a dead end.

Regards
Gavin



The document seems extremely confused to me. This is not least because the
author does not appear to present a clear definition of the terms in the
title or the expression of subject in the work. In particular, I can find no
definition of meaning other than the one presented in a quote from Shannon
and the subsequent use of the term is confused to say the least. Similarly,
the term semantic is not clearly defined and abused. The same goes for
other terms such as knowledge.

So I take an even harsher view than Joseph since it is not even a good
representative of the view that computer algorithms can provide all you
know, and all you need to know. The definitive representative of that view
is Stephen Wolfram's book A New Kind Of Science, and while I have my
problems with the theory in the book, it is - at least - well defined.

With respect,
Steven


On Oct 3, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote:

 Dear Krassimir,

 Thank you for bringing this document to our attention, for
 completeness. I

 would have wished, however, that you had made some comment on it,
 putting
it
 into relation with your own work and, for example, that of Mark
 Burgin, which are dismissed out of hand.

 From my point of view, Sunik's work is another one of those major
 steps backwards to an earlier, easier time when it was claimed that
 computer algorithms could provide all you know, and all you need to
 know about information. One example of a phrase the author presents
 as involving meaning is Peter's shirt size. . .

 From a methodological standpoint, I think it underlines, /a
 contrario/,
the
 danger of focus on a single approach to information. My current idea,
which
 I propose for discussion

[Fis] MDA 2012, second circular

[Krassimir Markov]

Subj: MDA 2012, second circular

/*** APOLOGIES FOR MULTIPLE OR UNWANTED RECEIPT ***/

Dear Colleague,

We are glad to send you the second circular announcing the first
International Conference on
Mathematics of Distances and Applications, July 2-5, 2012, Varna (Bulgaria).

Both pure math papers and science papers (in the broad sense) are welcome.
A non exhaustive list of topics is available on the conference website:

http://www.foibg.com/conf/ITA2012/2012mda.htm

Papers and Proceedings:

Papers may be associated or not to a talk request.
No poster session is planned.
The anonymous peer review process applies.
Accepted manuscripts (surveys, regular papers, extended abstracts) will be
published in an appropriate International Journal or Book.
Accepted abstracts will be published on-line.

More information about publications, deadlines, instructions for authors,
etc.:

http://www.foibg.com/conf/ITA2012/2012_fees.htm


If you are willing to contribute, please register on the Conference website
and communicate to us a provisional title of your paper or/and talk.


The MDA 2012 Committee:

Tetsuo Asano (Japan)
Stefan Dodunekov (Bulgaria)
Vladimir Gurvich (USA)
Sandi Klavzar (Slovenia)
Jacobus Koolen (South Korea)
Svetlozar Rachev (USA)
Egon Schulte (USA)
Sergey Shpectorov (UK)
Kokichi Sugihara (Japan)
Koen Vanhoof (Belgium)
Cedric Villani (France) (Fields Medal 2010)

Michel Deza (France) (michel.d...@ens.fr)
Krassimir Markov (Bulgaria) (mar...@foibg.com): contact for local
organization questions
Michel Petitjean (France) (petitjean.chi...@gmail.com): contact for other
questions


Do not hesitate to contact us if you need more information.

Thanks for your attention.

Best regards,

Michel Petitjean
MTi, INSERM UMR-S 973, University Paris 7
35 rue Helene Brion, 75205 Paris Cedex 13, France.
Phone: +331 5727 8434; Fax: +331 5727 8372
E-mail: petitjean.chi...@gmail.com (preferred),
michel.petitj...@univ-paris-diderot.fr
http://petitjeanmichel.free.fr/itoweb.petitjean.html

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[Fis] Fw: General Information Theory

[Krassimir Markov]

-Original Message- 
From: boris.sunik 
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 11:10 AM 
To: ithea-...@ithea.org 
Subject: General Information Theory 

Dear Colleague,

For your information:
http://www.GeneralInformationTheory.com

Regards,
Boris Sunik

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[Fis] ITA 2011 Summer Session Program and Papers

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear colleagues,

I am glad to inform you that the ITA 2011 Summer Session Program is published 
at the ITHEA web site ( www.ithea.org ).

To read it you may follow the link: 
http://www.foibg.com/conf/ITA2011/Program-ITA2011.pdf.

All papers of ITA 2011 Summer Session are published in:

ITHEA International Journal “Information Theories and Applications”, Vol. 18 / 
2011, No.: 1, 2 and 3 
http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol18/ijita-fv18.htm

ITHEA International Journal “Information Technologies and Knowledge”, Vol. 5 / 
2011, No.:1, 2 and 3 
http://www.foibg.com/ijitk/ijitk-vol05/ijitk-fv05.htm

and in the Thematic Collection “ Applicable Information Models”
Book No.: 22 from ITHEA International Scientific Book Series:
http://www.foibg.com/ibs_isc/ibs-22/ibs-22.htm

Respectfully yours

Krassimir Markov
ITHEA President


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Re: [Fis] ON INFORMATION THEORY--Mark Burgin, Colophon

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Guy, Mark and FIS colleagues,
This misunderstanding may be solved with simple step - if we will accept 
definition of information as a kind of reflection, which is internal 
structure in the thing but not the whole thing .
Friendly regards
Krassimir

-Original Message- 
From: Guy A Hoelzer
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 7:08 PM
To: Foundations of Information Science Information Science
Cc: Mark Burgin
Subject: Re: [Fis] ON INFORMATION THEORY--Mark Burgin, Colophon

Hi Mark,

The only part that I take exception to is at the end of your colophon. 
Specifically, I disagree with the statement “it is evident that to consider 
that everything IS information is unreasonable and contradicts principles of 
science.”  I see contrast, or difference, as fundamental to the concept of 
information.  All ‘things’ must be bounded such that there is a distinction 
between the inside and outside of the thing; therefore I don’t see how it is 
possible or reasonable for anything not to be information.

Regards,

Guy


On 6/7/11 6:34 PM, Mark Burgin mbur...@math.ucla.edu wrote:



Discussion colophon



  Dear all participants of the discussion (active and passive),



  I would like to express my gratitude to Pedro for asking me to start a 
discussion about basic problems of information theory and methodology, in 
which many qualified researchers have participated. I also appreciate 
efforts of all active participants of the discussion, who shared their 
interesting ideas related to information theory and practice, and especially 
to Joseph Brenner, who expertly distilled communication of different 
participants separating more or less direct answer to the suggested 
questions. As these questions have quintessential importance for information 
theory and methodology, I would like to suggest tentative answers to these 
questions, giving arguments in support of this approach.

Question 1. Is it necessary/useful/reasonable to make a strict distinction 
between information as a phenomenon and information measures as quantitative 
or qualitative characteristics of information?

All educated people understand that a person and her/his measure, for 
example height, are essentially different entities. It’s impossible to 
reduce a person to one measure. The same is true for subatomic particles and 
other physical, chemical and biological objects. However, when it comes to 
information, even qualified researchers don’t feel a necessity to make a 
strict distinction between information as a phenomenon and information 
measures, although there are infinitely many information measures. We can 
often hear and read such expressions as “Shannon information” or “Fisher 
information”.



Question 2. Are there types or kinds of information that are not encompassed 
by the general theory of information (GTI)?

  A grounded answer to this question depends what we understand when we 
say/write “types or kinds of information”, that is, on information 
definitions. If we take intrinsic information definitions, then the answer 
is YES as it is demonstrated in the book (Burgin, 2010).

  At the same time, if we take all information definitions suggested by 
different people, then the answer is NO because some of those definitions 
define not information but something else, e.g., information measure or 
knowledge or data. There are also other “definitions” that actually define 
nothing. Naturally, these definitions and related concepts (if there are 
any) are not encompassed by the GTI. However, GTI organizes all existing 
knowledge on information and information processes in one unified system, 
allowing one to discern information from other phenomena.

Question 3. Is it necessary/useful/reasonable to make a distinction between 
information and an information carrier?

In the mundane life, it is possible not to make a distinction between 
information and an information carrier. For instance, we do not make 
distinctions between an envelope with a letter and the letter itself, 
calling both things “a letter”, or between a book with a novel and the novel 
itself, calling both things “a novel”.

At the same time, a proper theory of information demands to make a 
distinction between information and an information carrier, especially, 
because any thing contains information and thus, is an information carrier, 
but it is evident that to consider that everything IS information is 
unreasonable and contradicts principles of science.



I would appreciate any feedback to the ideas from this e-mail.



Sincerely,

Mark



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[Fis] Main papers of GIT 2011

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Colleagues,

Selecting process of the papers for GIT 2011 is done and main papers are in 
print in International Journal Information Theories and Applications, 
Vol.18, Numbers 1 and 2.

Only for FIS the PDF variant if these numbers are available at:

http://www.ithea.org/fis/

Welcome in Varna!

I kindly ask participants to inform me ASAP about travel details and 
accommodation preferences.

Friendly regards

Krassimir




-Original Message- 
From: karl javorszky
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 7:13 PM
To: Pedro C. Marijuan
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: [Fis] end of session

Very Unfrequently Asked Questions

We have proposed a rethink of the procedure of additions. We state
that setting a1+b1=c=a2+b2 with a1#a2 (that is, saying that between
2+5 and 3+4 there is no real difference and ignoring this difference
carries no costs and working on this difference is a waste of time) is
a crude rounding. We say that the concept of additions merits a
revisiting and that not accepting a rounding error (which we commit by
setting 6+11=8+9) greatly improves our ability to count more exactly.
Furthermore, looking into the interdependences of additions allows us
to model Nature in fruitful ways.
This idea has been repeated and repeated again, with a very elaborate
numeric Table as demonstrational tool.

So far, the response has been rather hesitant. Questions in the
following fields could help to find the useful behind the unexpected:
1. Psychology
2. Numerical
3. Nature
4. Sociology
5. Applications and Business

Let me help the reader by offering a structure by which understanding
the concept of a+b=c becomes easier. The following are questions that
could well be raised:

1.1. Is this an explanation in the sense of the term “explanation” as
used in epistemology and psychology?
1.2. What is the novelty value of the invention?
1.3. Is it reasonable that the normal reader of the concept goes into
resistance?
1.4. Is it to be expected that the normal reader of the concept goes
tilt (becomes mute)?
1.5. Is the rounding error connected to thinking one-dimensionally,
similarity-oriented?
1.6. What is the relation between foreground and background?

2.1. Is a sequence 1,2,3,… one-dimensional?
2.2. Are additions generally seen as one-dimensional?
2.3. Is a sorting procedure a specific partition of the set?
2.4. Does the difference between a and b translate into a linear
position in the set?
2.5. What is a maximally structured set?
2.6. Why 136?
2.7. Does the set leak above 136?
2.8. Is the search path to individual elements differently long in
multidimensional sets?

3.1. Is the DNA traditionally seen in the literature as one-dimensional?
3.2. Does the model offer two logically and physically different
sub-spaces with 3 rectangular axes each?
3.3. Can the two sub-spaces be merged into one, Newtonian, space?
3.4. Does the model show spatial properties of objects to be
translatable into mass properties?
3.5. Does the model offer clear definitions for properties of time?
3.6. Are the spatial points thru which strings run a concept for mass?
3.7. Could the spatial geometry of molecules be understood by means of
the model?

4.1. Has the usage of additions heretofore been an ex cathedra dogma?
4.2. Is the insistence on the irrelevance of the difference between
2+4 and 3+3 a cultural heritage?
4.3. Is the concept of the right hierarchy connected to experiences
transmitted by the gravitation?
4.4. Is it usual to be very angry with someone who makes the system as
understood so far collapse?
4.5. Why has this so-called “invention” not been invented so far?

5.1. Can I publish very many papers if I understand before others what is 
a+b=c?
5.2. Is this the time to jump the band-wagon?
5.3. Is there anything to publish left for me?
5.4. Is this stuff good to sell to the general public?
5.5. Has anyone made a Book Of Additions with many colourful drawings yet?
5.6. About 1% of the population of the Earth is a mathematician. Is
that a market?
5.7. Could this idea work in the fashion (using the principle) like
the neurons integrate information?
5.8. Would it be profitable to have such a Table on both ends of a
communication channel?
5.8. Are there inventions ready to patent if only I ask for a private 
meeting?

Varna is a nice town, specifically end of June. I shall be there from
the 21st till the 26th and look forward to any of these questions. It
would be friendly of you if you could advise about which you would
like to work on. Of course, I will do my best if you come up with some
other questions, but of course it is open if I can give you an answer
to those.

Looking forward an interesting exchange:
Karl

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Re: [Fis] [Different GTI]

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro and FIS colleagues,

I agree with the proposition that at this moment “the most universal form of 
information is unattainable”.

What we have to do, I think, is to classify the existing theories, to explain 
theirs main features and to publish the survey for further work.
This work is very important. It is mile-stone for further research and creating 
new theories.

Of course, the example with the blind men and the elephant, presented in 
details in the book of Mark, is valid for this case.
But we already have seen that in several different books one and the same 
theories are pointed and discussed.
Because of this, systemizing of the received results in FIS, concerning the 
concept “information” and connected to it phenomena will be fruitful for the 
society.

What we may do is to invite everybody to present from his/her point of view one 
or more (own or not) information theories. The texts we will organize in a book 
for free access from all over the world.

ITHEA already organize such work in the area of Global Monitoring for 
Environment and Security. 62 authors were united to prepare a monograph. The 
result is available online for free at the address:  
http://www.foibg.com/ibs_isc/ibs-21/ibs-21.htm

I am sure, we may realize similar project in the FIS area, too.

Friendly regards

Krassimir



From: Pedro C. Marijuan 
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 1:57 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] [Re: [Different GTI]

Dear Igor, Joseph, Krassimir, QTQ... and All,

It is my contention that the most universal form of information is 
unattainable. Whatever the notion chosen, it is always feeding back and 
forwards with the subject him/herself and the conceptions or frame of thought 
which are momentarily held by the subject. Given that our brains are configured 
into open-ended forms of openness, there must be a discipline maintained 
throughout a series of conventions, principles, and standards, so that our 
concepts, percepts, and actions may collectively establish a sort of unison. 
This is what we rigorously do in sciences, and of course, in very different 
ways, for languaging, economic activities, social relationships, etc. Following 
those conventions is like respiring, absolutely automatic and unconscious.

The above does not mean that information science or information theory 
become empty or questionable purposes. Just the opposite. I think that Igor has 
made a good job putting together important aspects within the field of 
information physics, though the consistency of the whole info views can be 
put into question --as Joseph has cogently dissected. Mark and Krassimir have 
worked hard of information theory, and that means counting with a substantial 
metrics regarding the diversity/heterogeneity of established information 
configurations. QTQ has also added views with novelty... But a new framework 
(way of thinking) is needed where we somehow de-anthropogenize the field, 
getting it partially free of the above circularity: because I am 
philososphically or disciplinarily configured that way, info is this and that 
for me. My usual argument in this list has been that a few informational 
entities have to be taken as model systems, and then a comparative study 
undertaken. Now what I would ad is that a previous new theory of mind has to 
be advanced, a little bit at least. Let me include a couple of paragraphs from 
the work I am presenting in next fis session at Varna:


It is of particular interest in the human case that the combined system formed 
by the frontal and prefrontal areas with their massive increase in connectivity 
are breaking the brain’s reliance on modular specialized subsystems and 
maximally expanding the combinatory possibilities. Following Dehaene (2009), a 
“neuronal workspace” emerges whose main function is to assemble, confront, 
recombine, and synthesize knowledge. This system is further endowed with a 
fringe of spontaneous fluctuation that allows for the testing of new ideas, 
related to both the emergence of reflexive consciousness and the human 
competence for cultural invention. Although conscious brain activity fluctuates 
stochastically it does not wander at random. Selection mechanisms stabilize the 
combinations of ideas that are most interesting, useful or just “contagious”: 
privileged neuronal projections coming from the evaluation and reward circuits 
of orbitofrontal and cingulate cortex as well as the subcortical nuclei of 
amygdala and the basal ganglia are participating in this process.

Therefore, in the extent to which those premises are correct, a compact 
approach to knowledge automation and recombination by the central nervous 
system seems achievable, and further, a new “Theory of Mind” could be 
contemplated. It will be close to current attempts on formulating a 
motor-centered epistemology, which has been deemed by relevant neuroscientists 
as one the best foundations for explaining our automated cognition. See 

Re: [Fis] Discussion colophon--James Hannam. Orders and OrderingPrinciples

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Loet, Pedro and FIS Colleagues,
It is very important to take in account the ontological structure of the 
information subjects in the reality.
The hierarchy of the intellectual properties is not investigated in deep 
till now.
Who may say that the human brain is one whole but not a very complicated 
system of small cells and possibly special kinds of bacteria and other micro 
organisms ?
The phenomena of intelligence could not be investigated separately taking in 
account only one of its realizations.
Let remember the very actual scientific area called Natural Information 
Technologies.
I expect in the future the scientific collegium to recognize special kind of 
intelligent systems which is seen today - social human-technic systems where 
the new kind of information subject was established - a society built by 
connected nodes of human-computer systems. Let remember Nord Africa.
I think we made step to the next discussion. It is nice to meet Mark!
Friendly regards
Krassimir



-Original Message- 
From: Loet Leydesdorff
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 1:14 PM
To: 'Pedro C. Marijuan' ; fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Discussion colophon--James Hannam. Orders and 
OrderingPrinciples

Dear Pedro,

I understand that you have some problems with my epistemic stance. Let me
try to clarify.

Let me go back to Maturana (1978) The Biology of Language ...
On p. 49, he formulated:  ... so that the relations of neuronal activity
generated under consensual behavior become perturbations and components to
further consensual behavior, an observer is operationally generated. And
furthermore (at this same page):  ... the second-order consensual domain
that it establishes with other organisms becomes indistinguishable from a
semantic domain.

This observer (at the biological level) is able to provide meaning to the
information. However, as Maturana argues later in this paper this semantics
is different from that of human super-observers introduced from p. 56
onwards.

My interest is in human super-observers. I consider the latter as
psychological systems which are able not only to provide meaning to the
observations, but also to communicate meaning. The communication of meaning
generates a supra-individual super-semantic domain, in which meaning
cannot only be provided, but also changed; not in the sense of updated but
because of the reflexivity involved. Robert Rosen's notion of anticipatory
systems is here important.

Dubois (1998) distinguished between incursive and hyper-incursive systems
and between weak and strong anticipation. Both psychological observers and
interhuman discourses can be considered as strongly anticipatory, that is,
they use future states -- discursively and reflexively envisaged -- for the
update. Non-human systems do not have this capacity: they learn by
adaptation, but not in terms of entertaining and potentially discussing
models.

Models provide predictions of future states that can be used for updating
the persent state of the systems which can entertain these models. Thus, new
options are generated. This increases the redundancy; that is, against the
arrow of time. Meaning providing already does so, but communication and
codification of meaning enhances this process further. Non-human observers
(e.g., monkeys) are able to provide meaning and perhaps sometimes to
entertain a model, but they are not able to communicate these models. That
makes the difference. If models cannot be communicated, they cannot be
improved consciously and reflexively.

Thus, a non-human may be an observer, but it cannot be a cogito. This makes
the psychological system different from the biological. Cogitantes can
entertain and discuss models (as cogitata). One of the models, for example,
is the one of autopoiesis.

Best wishes,
Loet

Loet Leydesdorff
Professor, University of Amsterdam
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR),
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-842239111
l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/


-Original Message-
From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On
Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 11:29 AM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Discussion colophon--James Hannam. Orders and Ordering
Principles

Dear FIS colleagues,

I have some differences about the epistemic stance recently discussed by
Karl, Loet (and in part, Joseph, but he looks more as trying to step on the
reality, whatever it is). Basically, their informational subject looks like
the abstract, disembodied, non-situated, classical observer, equipped in a
Cartesian austerity --and outside, just the Order or maybe the Disorder.

My contention is that the epistemology of information science has to give
room for non-human observers, I mean, there is cognition and informational
processes (forms of knowledge and intelligence included) in bacteria, living
cells in general, non human nervous systems, 

Re: [Fis] Extension of Deadline for Submission in GIT 2011

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Joseph, Pedro and FIS colleagues,
The deadline for our Int. Conference on GIT, Varna 2011, is extended at least 
to April 15, 2011. 
This means that after this date the submission system will receive your papers 
but possibly we will publish them after the conference in our books and 
journals.
Welcome in Bulgaria!
Friendly regards
Krassimir






From: joe.bren...@bluewin.ch 
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 5:18 AM
To: Krassimir Markov 
Subject: Extension of Deadline for Submission

Dear Krassimir, 


Since I saw your agreement to extend the deadline to April 15 (for which 
thanks), I expected you would send out a message to the FIS list and others 
indicating the new date. Are you still going to do this? Has the change been 
made in the central ITHEA ISS Submission Web System?
Please let me (us) know.
Thank you and best wishes,
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Re: [Fis] comments next session

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro and FIS colleagues,

In Russian literature there exists an collective “author” Kuzma Prutkov , i.e. 
a group of writers who have used this common name to publish sentences.
One of Kuzma Prutkov’s sentence is “Нельзя обнять небъятного!”, or in English 
“It is impossible to embrace the infinite”.
What I mean? It is impossible to have only one information theory to cover all 
information phenomena.
Because of this we need to have philosophical paradigm which will unite all 
particular information theories.
I think we need to clear what theory will discuss in given moment. This way we 
will have a frame in which the concepts will be not contradictory.
How such frames can be drawn is topic just of the common philosophical paradigm.
Friendly regards
Krassimir
P.S. Many thanks to all who became members of the ITA 2011 GIT Int. Conference 
Committees. 
The updated Call for Papers is published for the FIS society at:
http://www.ithea.org/fis



From: Pedro C. Marijuan 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:34 PM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: [Fis] comments  next session

Dear FIS colleagues,

I found very intriguing the fast  furious messages of past days. One of the 
main triggers, I think, was Karl's response to Joseph's requests on his info 
theory... The logic of distinctions that Karl worked out years ago was in my 
view an outstanding contribution (the use of multidimensional partitions in set 
theory). Unfortunately he linked it to very idiosyncratic notions on cellular 
dynamics between DNA and cytoplasm, and he also miscalculated the number of 
multidimensional partitions. These are nontrivial matters that he has to solve 
or that we can discuss (necessarily in face to face exchanges!!), at least for 
me to accept any of his further developments. But let me insist that his logic 
of distinctions is highly original and very elegant. 

Then, among the many other exchanges (Jerry, Loet, Gavin, John, Bob...) my 
contention is that most of them were insisting in the predominance of some 
disciplinary orientation versus the competing ones. Jerry put it in a very 
clear way: The abstract symbol systems of Dalton, Lavoisier, and Coulomb 
underly the foundations of thermodynamics as well as the Shannon theory of 
information as well as our concept of such abstractions as “energy” and 
“entropy.” These symbol systems are now firmly embedded in the logic of 
scientific communications...

Thus, was the exciting discussion basically a rhetorical contest between 
disciplinary orientations (where unfortunately neuroscience was missing)? Yes 
and No. Let me interpret it in favor of what I argued about the undefinability 
of information, and the possibility to establish a number of info conceptions 
after reliance on some particular disciplinary narrative. If we accept that 
undefinability, we can start to discuss in a different and more productive way: 
about conditions and procedures to establish the most elegant and economic 
general approach to information GIVEN THE DISCIPLINARY CONTENTS OF OUR TIME. 

Thus the past discussion on intelligence and information was very strategic 
(entering a new focus in our discussions), as can be the coming session, on the 
historical background of modern science. What kind of info theory and what 
conceptions of information could be framed or were present in the medieval 
world? How were they recombining their knowledge? Our presenter Dr. James 
Hannam (James in our friendly list) has recently written a very successful 
book. God's Philosophers: How the Medieval World Laid the Foundations of 
Modern Science in Icon Books (2009), which has been translated to several 
languages and has been shortlisted for the Royal Society Science Book Prize 
2010 (and is now out in paperback). The official announcement of the session 
will be made in a few days.

Information science is different, and fascinating, as it contains so many 
tricks and labyrinthine paths!

best

---Pedro 

-- 
-
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Telf: 34 976 71 3526 ( 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-



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[Fis] Happy New Year !

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro, Qiao Tian-qing, Karl and all FIS colleagues.
Please receive my best wishes for the New Year. Let it be fruitful and 
successful !
Sorry, for a long time I have no possibilities to work in internet. I had many 
travels and after returning in Sofia more than a month I had no internet and 
stationary phone connections – gipsy people stole the main cable and phone 
company had to rebuild the phone permanent way.
I have many to say in our discussion about information and if it will be no too 
late and interesting for the FIS group, after 10 of January I will prepare my 
next contribution.
Be Happy and Health in the New Year ! The rest is in our hands and bank 
accounts – Let they be always full !
Friendly regards
Krassimir



From: karl javorszky 
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 12:11 PM
To: Pedro C. Marijuan 
Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] [Fwd: Karl is all right, too...but] Msg From QTQ

Dear Qiao Tian-qing,

(I hope that this address is both respectful and friendly).

Thank you for an interesting statement and the opportunity to discuss in a 
deeper fashion the term information. Our differences are not unbridgeable:
you say that the term information can not be given a precise ontological 
meaning.
I say that the term information can very well be given a precise - exact, 
numerically stable - ontological meaning and formal definition, but this work 
is long, complicated, tedious, full of details and decisions.

The tool at your disposal - the set of 136 variants of a+b=c, being ordered in 
any of 72 defined fashions - shows the logical skeleton of the interdependence 
of what and where. This is but a first step (discovery) along a long road 
of improved methods of additions. One may compare the small tool to the first 
primitive X-ray machine of Roentgen. One recognises that something 
revolutionary is on offer, which may change a whole science forever. The 
concept - the basic idea - is absolutely new and creative. It is true that 
utilisation needs lots of agreements (e.g. which way is upside down, how do we 
interpret the grey shades, how do we influence the transparency of tissue, e.g. 
by injecting contrast substances, etc.), and is therefore long, complicated and 
full of necessities of agreements, e.g. relating to the taxonomy.

In the case of the improved methods of addition (where one considers more 
aspects of the addition than heretofore), it is e.g. obvious that the tool 
allows referencing to forces as mathematical facts. The long and complicated 
discussion begins now about which kind of readings of the Table is equivalent 
to gravitation, which to weak and which to strong interaction, and which 
readings we call recognising the magnetic and which the electric fields.

But this task is equivalent to searching for agreement, which shade of the 
X-ray is showing cartilago and which osteoporosis. No one would argue that it 
is conceptually impossible to catalogise the parts of the body, even if it 
appears to be a long and complicated process towards agreements.

So, I may insist on my statement, that the term information can well be 
filled up with - ontological - meaning, where each and every meaning is 
attached to one specific reading of the Addition Table. This is of course a 
long and complicated process, because we have first to agree, what is a 
relevant reading and therefore which readings are irrelevant. Among the 
irrelevant readings there are some that can become relevant. In that moment, it 
will become information actualised=relevant.

It is a pleasure to work through this long and complicated intellectual 
exercise with partners in discussion like you. Thank you again.

Karl


2011/1/3 Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es

  FIS Friends, first of all, Happy New Year! Herewith a delayed message from 
QTQ that was answering a previous posting from Karl. I cannot help but saying 
that in the history of some sciences (remarkably Thermodynamics) clearly 
stating WHAT CANNOT BE DONE was extremely fruitful for the disciplinary 
development --i.e., what cannot be defined, in the present case. ---Pedro

   Mensaje original  Asunto:  Karl is all right, too. but 
Fecha:  Wed, 22 Dec 2010 22:04:28 +0800 
De:  whhbs...@sina.com 
Para:  Pedro C. Marijuan mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es 



  Dear Pedro

  Karl is all right, too, because he said, The term 'information' can well be 
defined by stringent logical-mathematical methods. It will, however, need 
agreement on the classification of the kinds of information.




  The present fact is: the concept of information has become a 
self–contradictory and common term used confusedly, universally. Therefore, 
nowadays we will surely get into trouble if we try to give a philosophical or 
scientific definition of information. It is impossible to state the precise 
ontological meaning for “information”, just as one language, English or 
Esperanto, is unable to unify 4300 

Re: [Fis] FIS Bibliography

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Karl, dear colleagues,

Thank you for kind words.

FIS Bibliography page in our internal FIS page and no one else has access to it.
It is aimed to serve our discussion only. 
This means that the papers are included by the authors request without 
censuring and additional control.
My wish is to serve not to disturb 
Everybody from FIS is invited.
After finishing discussion page may be destroyed.

But I have an other proposition.

During the Summer Session of ITA 2010 Joint International Scientific Events on 
Informatics in Varna, Bulgaria, we decide to establish several new ITHEA 
Special Interest Groups.
Till now only one ITHEA SIG on “Intelligent Data Processing in Global 
Monitoring for Environment and Security” was established. As result a 
collective monograph has been prepared. It is on final stage before printing by 
ITHEA Publishing House. You may see it at internal page of this group   
http://www.ithea.org/idp/ . It is remarkable that about 60 authors take part in 
this work.
A new ITHEA SIG will be on the General Information Theory and connected to it 
History of Information Theories, Ontology of Informatics, etc. 
Main participants till now are scientists from Russia, Ukraine, Armenia, Poland 
and Bulgaria.
In the June I have had no information about FIS Group. 
Now I invite you to join the ITHEA SIG on GIT or if you prefer – on FIS ! 
This group will start working in the beginning of the next year and the main 
task will be preparing of a collective monograph on information theories as 
well as several international conferences or workshops.
Participation in ITHEA and ITHEA SIG is absolutely free. 
ITHEA membership may be done personally at www.ithea.org or by sending an 
e-mail to me.
Friendly regards
Krassimir
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Re: [Fis] INTELLIGENCE INFORMATION (by Y.X.Zhong)

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Yi-Xin, Pedro and FIS Coleagues,

Thank you for kind invitation. I am very glad to take part in FIS.

During the years I have seen a stable interest to the basic problems of
informatics. This was the reason to unite more than 2000 scientists all
over the world in the ITHEA® International Scientific Society (ITHEA® ISS)
and for the last ten years to organize more than 60 conferences, to
publish two Int. Journals and more than 30 books. The Institute of
Information Theories and Applications FOI ITHEA® was established as
independent nongovernmental organization to support the collaboration
between members of ITHEA® ISS. (pls. see www.ithea.org ). Let finish this
introductory part with little information about me. My name is Krassimir
Markov. I am mathematician with specialization in computer science and I
have worked in the Institute of Mathematics and Informatics at the
Bulgarian Academy of Sciences since 1975.

I think, firstly we need to answer to the second question - What is the
correct concept of information? –Without proper understanding of
information, the definition of concept “intelligence” as well as all the
answers of the rest questions will be intuitive and not clear.

There exist several common theoretical information paradigms in the
Information Science. May be, the most popular is the approach based on the
generalization of the Shannon's Information Theory [Shannon, 1949], [Lu,
1999]. Another approach is the attempt to synthesize the existing
mathematical theories in a common structure, which is applicable for
explanation of the information phenomena [Cooman et al, 1995].

Besides of this, we need to point the diligence of the many researchers to
give formal or not formal definitions of the concept information.
Unfortunately, although they are quite attractive in some cases, these
definitions did not bring to any serious theoretical results [Abdeev,
1994], [Bangov, 1995], [Tomov, 1991], [Elstner, 1993].

At the end, there exist some works that claim for theoretical generality
and aspire to be a new approach in the Information Science, but theirs
authors should clear up what they really talk about [Burgin, 1997].

The theoretical base of the informatics needs the philosophical support
and substantiation to become wide accepted scientific paradigm. This way,
the scientific research in the domain of informatics would be able to leap
across its boundaries and to become as elements of the scientific view of
life.

Discovering the common philosophical paradigm has exceptional importance
[Popper, 1968].

Let call it “General Information Theory” (GIT).

Starting point need to be the consideration that the General Information
Theory (GIT) needs to be established as internal non-contradictory system
of contentions [Markov et al, 1993].  Basic requirement is that the GIT
needs to explain the already created particular information theories and
paradigms.

The mathematical structures ought to serve as a tool for achievement the
precise clearness of the philosophical formulations and establishing the
common language for describing and interpreting the information phenomena
and processes.

The second very important requirement is to build the GIT on the base of
the inceptive philosophical definition of the concept information using
as less as possible the primary undefined concepts with maximal degree of
philosophical generalization. This requirement follows the consideration
that the concept information is not mathematical concept. The behavior,
peculiarity and so on could be described by the mathematical structures
but this is another problem. In this case, the accent is stressed on the
comprehension that the information has purely material determination and
that it is a consequence of the interaction between the material objects
as well as of the real processes and phenomena occurred in them and with
them.

We had started developing the GIT in the period 1977-1980. The first
publication, which represents some elements of GIT, was [Markov, 1984].
The establishment of GIT was not rectilinear. Occasionally, the influences
of other paradigms have disturbed this process and have turned it to the
vain effort (se for example [Burgin, Markov, 1991]).

The fundamental notion of the GIT is the concept Information. All other
concepts are defined based on this definition. In 1988, the not formal
definition of the concept of Information was published in [Markov, 1988].
It became as a fundamental definition for the GIT [Markov et al, 1993],
[Markov et al, 2003a], [Markov et al, 2007]. The translation of the
philosophical theory into the formal one seems a good approach for
verification of the ideas. Because of this, we try to present the basic
concepts of the General Information Theory not only philosophically but
formally, too [Markov et al, 2003b], [Markov et al, 2004].

GIT is built by three specialized theories:
- Theory of Information,
- Theory of Infos,
- Theory of Inforaction.

The first theory is just