Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Ben Finney < ben+freesoftw...@benfinney.id.au> wrote: > Adrian Colomitchi > writes: > > > Coincidence? > > < > http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/01/17/1910204/tackling-open-sources-gender-issues > > > > It's a coincidence, but not merely that. That explains. Tha

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Adrian Colomitchi writes: > Coincidence? > It's a coincidence, but not merely that. AdaCamp in Melbourne http://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/events/adacamp-mel-2012/> and Haecksen http://haecksen.net/> and othe

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Coincidence? On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 7:02 PM, Dennis K wrote: > On 01/17/2012 10:20 AM, Ben Finney wrote: > > Brianna Laugher > > writes: > > > >> This comic about global warming has a person presenting at a '

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On 01/17/2012 10:20 AM, Ben Finney wrote: > Brianna Laugher > writes: > >> This comic about global warming has a person presenting at a 'Climate >> Summit' conference with a list of all the benefits to the earth and >> society of moving to green energy. A person in the audience stands up >> and s

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Brianna Laugher writes: > This comic about global warming has a person presenting at a 'Climate > Summit' conference with a list of all the benefits to the earth and > society of moving to green energy. A person in the audience stands up > and says, "What if it's a big hoax and we create a better

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

http://politicalirony.com/2009/12/10/what-if-2/ This comic about global warming has a person presenting at a 'Climate Summit' conference with a list of all the benefits to the earth and society of moving to green energy. A person in the audience stands up and says, "What if it's a big hoax and we

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On 01/16/2012 01:08 AM, Alexander wrote: Sorry about the confusion with my headers. In Val Henson's HOWTO, Section 2 she insists that the women are socialised to be less inclined towards computer science: "If you are unwilling to accept that women's lack of interest in computing is genetic

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Hi Matt, Thanks for setting the record straight, at least amongst those who are willing to give you a fair hearing. It's pretty sad that in a space where our motto is "Free as in speech", you can be denounced for making fair comments and asking legitimate questions. Maybe, in the interest of cla

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Thanks, Russell. Great links and good post. Regards, Patrick (sent from Linux conf au) > > http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/08/terrible-bargain-we-have- > regretfully.html > > Could ALL the men on this list please read the above blog post, particularly > paragraph 11 onwards. If yo

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

The tone of this thread is becoming very accusatory towards men. As I've stated repeatedly, I'm all for treating women (and all people) with respect. But that respect has to go both ways, and a lot of the opinions I'm reading (including the shakespearessister link that Russell keeps bringing up) ar

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012, Alexander wrote: > If we accept the premise that women would be equally interested in Free > Software in a society that did not discourage them from doing so or render > them less inclined to do so, then an ultimate goal of 50:50 seems pretty > fair. The fair thing to do woul

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Sorry about the confusion with my headers. In Val Henson's HOWTO, Section 2 she insists that the women are socialised to be less inclined towards computer science: "If you are unwilling to accept that women's lack of interest in computing is genetically predetermined (and I hope you aren't willin

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012, Clockwork PC wrote: > There are at least two discussions in this thread: > >1. What ratio of men and women should we consider both desirable and >realistic? That is the wrong question. We should concentrate on making the FOSS community a safe and fun environment fo

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Clockwork PC writes: > There are at least two discussions in this thread: > >1. What ratio of men and women should we consider both desirable and >realistic? I don't see that any number is going to be objectively useful as an answer, so I don't think pursuing that line of enquiry is help

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

(Alex, can you please fix your ‘From’ field so that, like your signature, it gives your proper name.) Clockwork PC writes: > But 28% is nowhere near parity, and it raises the question of whether > 50/50 is a realistic goal. I don't know who is promoting parity, or 50/50. I would appreciate a Me

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Hi Russell, Thanks for these links. They make for sobering reading. There are at least two discussions in this thread: 1. What ratio of men and women should we consider both desirable and realistic? 2. Is the current extremely small number of women in Free Software due to the behavi

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012, Matt Giuca wrote: > Wait. You're operating under an unstated assumption that the only factor > influencing the percentage of women in a particular community is how well > the males in the community behaves towards women. That's a GIANT unproven > assumption. This is a complex

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Just want to clarify below, I'm not suggesting there ARE too many women, or too few men, only that there is an assumption about what participation rates should be. On 01/15/2012 09:16 PM, Dennis K wrote: On 01/15/2012 07:12 PM, Matt Giuca wrote: The drastically lower rate of participati

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On 01/15/2012 07:12 PM, Matt Giuca wrote: The drastically lower rate of participation in free software suggests that the free software community is worse behaving than society at large. Wait. You're operating under an unstated assumption that the only factor influencing the perce

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Hi Brianna, Thanks for responding to my comment. I have a few follow-up questions: *QUESTION ONE: Is the 50/50 goal realistic?* I raised the 50/50 goal because of comments such as this, which I've come across in many discussions: *"...then maybe it makes sense to give a damn about why half the

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

> The drastically lower rate of participation in free software suggests > that the free software community is worse behaving than society at > large. Wait. You're operating under an unstated assumption that the only factor influencing the percentage of women in a particular community is how well

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On 15 January 2012 17:44, Clockwork PC wrote: > But 28% is nowhere near parity, and it raises the question of whether 50/50 > is a realistic goal.  There are huge differences in participation rates in > other professions -- teaching, nursing, engineering, mathematics.  Even if > this difference *i

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Hi all, I think that Dennis K raised a good point, which I'd like to clarify. As far as we know, the gap between women in open source development and closed-source development is something like 1.5% (some estimate 5%) versus 28%, which everyone would agree is concerningly low. Even if it were 10

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On 01/15/2012 01:15 PM, Ben Sturmfels wrote: On 15/01/12 12:42, Dennis K wrote: I never said there was no sexism at all. Obviously, such things like sexism and racism, do exist. I did say however, that even if they didn't really exist in certain areas, there is a vested interest in combating it,

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

I'm going to bring my Wife, who has used a lot of free software as a user, just because it was provided… She's also quite opinionated, so hopefully will help. Creativity in print, digital print, web, multimedia, craft and the environment.PO Box 119, Brunswick, Vic, 3056(03) 83000 233 | 04 3325 5721

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On 15/01/12 12:42, Dennis K wrote: I never said there was no sexism at all. Obviously, such things like sexism and racism, do exist. I did say however, that even if they didn't really exist in certain areas, there is a vested interest in combating it, as some people professionally do this. No

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

I never said there was no sexism at all. Obviously, such things like sexism and racism, do exist. I did say however, that even if they didn't really exist in certain areas, there is a vested interest in combating it, as some people professionally do this. No one will act in a manner which render

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On 14 January 2012 11:27, Dennis K wrote: > With all due respect, I think these articles which talk about sexism and > racism still existing in some 'underlying' manner are nothing more than > puff pieces designed to justify the livelihoods of people who making a > living combating this. > > By ma

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On 01/14/2012 12:20 PM, Matt Giuca wrote: > > With all due respect, I think these articles which talk about sexism and > racism still existing in some 'underlying' manner are nothing more than > puff pieces designed to justify the livelihoods of people who making a > living combati

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

> With all due respect, I think these articles which talk about sexism and > racism still existing in some 'underlying' manner are nothing more than > puff pieces designed to justify the livelihoods of people who making a > living combating this. > > By maintaining there is a problem, you can then

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On 01/13/2012 01:23 PM, Ben Finney wrote: > Bianca Gibson > writes: > >> I agree there. To me, were a lot of groups tend to fall short is >> including women or other minorities in the group without making us >> feel like the odd one out. Very similar stuff can be said for age, >> someone I know t

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On 13 January 2012 15:20, Patrick Elliott-Brennan wrote: > Bianca Gibson > Ben Finney > +1 Heh... Top post and quoting what appeared like the entire digest email. Bad boy, Patrick! ;-) Not even sure which bits the +1 is to be applied to. I am not totally sold on the making a compliment when you

Re: [free-software-melb] encouraging women

On Fri, 13 Jan 2012, Andrew Pam wrote: > Changing the subject won't start a new thread of discussion; the > "In-Reply-To" headers preserve the thread regardless of the "Subject" > headers of the messages. It's preferable to use the "compose new email > to this address" feature of your email clien

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

g women (Ben Finney) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:44:25 +1100 > From: Bianca Gibson > To: Melbourne Free Software Interest Group > > Subject: Re: [free-software-me

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

> > As that article explores, sexism in such environments is less often > overt harrassment, and much more often an atmosphere of being treated as > strange and otherly, in somewhat contradictory juxtaposition with a > plaintive why-can't-we-treat-them-like-the-boys attitude. > > The overt harassme

Re: [free-software-melb] encouraging women

I'm going to be there, when I get the chance I'll post something on the list with any suggestions for this group I think of after it. I'd either get the time just after LCA or at the start of February. On 13 January 2012 13:30, Chris Samuel wrote: > I would also suggest people look at the Ada In

Re: [free-software-melb] encouraging women

I would also suggest people look at the Ada Initiative (set up last year by Mary Gardiner and Val Aurora), who tomorrow are running events in Melbourne. http://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/events/adacamp-mel-2012/ All the best, Chris -- Chris Samuel : http://www.csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VI

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Bianca Gibson writes: > I agree there. To me, were a lot of groups tend to fall short is > including women or other minorities in the group without making us > feel like the odd one out. Very similar stuff can be said for age, > someone I know that is male and went to his first LUG at 15 felt lik

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Matt Giuca writes: > What I took as particularly demeaning was the notion that women, in > particular, need more of this style of compliment (which I took as > condescending). What if that turns out to be true though? That, because of many pressures and influences in specific groups and society

Re: [free-software-melb] encouraging women

> Changing the subject won't start a new thread of discussion; the > "In-Reply-To" headers preserve the thread regardless of the "Subject" > headers of the messages. It's preferable to use the "compose new email > to this address" feature of your email client instead of "reply". > > Cheers, >

Re: [free-software-melb] encouraging women

On 13/01/12 12:57, Bianca Gibson wrote: > No meaning to me replying to that talk, I just searched to find the > email address, hit reply and forgot to change the the subject. Changing the subject won't start a new thread of discussion; the "In-Reply-To" headers preserve the thread regardless of th

[free-software-melb] encouraging women

No meaning to me replying to that talk, I just searched to find the email address, hit reply and forgot to change the the subject. ___ Free-software-melb mailing list Free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au http://lists.softwarefreedom.com.au/mail

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Bianca Gibson < bianca.rachel.gib...@gmail.com> wrote: > Mm, otherwise it seems like you are complementing just because they are > female, which has a chance of looking like ulterior motives. I think more > complementing of everyone would be a good thing in our co

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

"Perhaps I'm going about it the wrong way, but I feel that the best way to make women feel more included is to treat all people, male or female, with the same respect. I would find it humiliating and excluding if I was a woman and I found out that men were specifically giving me compliments because

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

" I see complimenting any person on their achievement, without referencing their sex or discriminating on that basis, to be one improvement of many." I agree there. To me, were a lot of groups tend to fall short is including women or other minorities in the group without making us feel like the odd

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Thanks Ben, I think I forked this into two issues: gender equality, and the specifics of that compliment without regard to gender. Now, though, I see it more that these compliments are good for everyone, > and women are *right* to expect them and to be put off by how > unsupportive the community

[free-software-melb] Encouraging women

Matt Giuca writes: > Thanks for posting. I had a quick look through it. While a lot of it > is common sense, it sounds like common sense that some people need to > hear. (I hope I'm not among them.) This is a humility that I hope more men can learn: that we often enable sexism, not through malic

Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women

On 12/01/12 22:48, Bianca Gibson wrote: Hi all, I came across something while researching for Adacamp about how to encourage women in linux - it would also apply to FLOSS in general. As some of the people in Melbourne Free Software have acciden