Re: Archive pruning
On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, David Scheidt wrote: On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, Bush Doctor wrote: Out of da blue David Scheidt aka ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) said: Not incidently, SCO have waived the $100 license application fee, which means that you can get your own official Ancient UNIX(TM) Source Code License for free. This roughly cuts in half the cost of the disks for someone not covered under a orginizaitonal souce code license. Is there a new license form to sign or do we just fill out the current form without sending the applicateion fee? I don't know. SCO just made the announcement a week or two ago -- the same time they BSD licensed cscope -- and don't appear to have made changes to their web site yet. The press release is at http://www.sco.com/press/releases/2000/6927.html It might be worthwhile to attempt to contact the contact name on the release. SCO have updated their webpages, to show that they are now giving these licenses away. See http://www.sco.com/offers/ancient.html. They also have have the 5th, 6th and 7th edition UNIXs available, as well as system III and 32V available. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Tue, 16 May 2000, David Scheidt wrote: On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, David Scheidt wrote: On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, Bush Doctor wrote: Out of da blue David Scheidt aka ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) said: Not incidently, SCO have waived the $100 license application fee, which means that you can get your own official Ancient UNIX(TM) Source Code License for free. This roughly cuts in half the cost of the disks for someone not covered under a orginizaitonal souce code license. Is there a new license form to sign or do we just fill out the current form without sending the applicateion fee? I don't know. SCO just made the announcement a week or two ago -- the same time they BSD licensed cscope -- and don't appear to have made changes to their web site yet. The press release is at http://www.sco.com/press/releases/2000/6927.html It might be worthwhile to attempt to contact the contact name on the release. SCO have updated their webpages, to show that they are now giving these licenses away. See http://www.sco.com/offers/ancient.html. They also have have the 5th, 6th and 7th edition UNIXs available, as well as system III and 32V available. This makes checking the 'this command dates from xxx version' much easier 8-) David To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
For an opinion from a reasonably new-comer and non-developer, I think at least the main source tree should remain *completely* complete. As someone mentioned, why not have "lite" mirrors? Dan K. gh | On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Richard Wackerbarth wrote: | | On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, you wrote: | | I told myself I wouldn't get into this debate with you again, Richard, but | you're not listening. The vast majority (all? I might have missed one) of | the other respondants | | Actually, I didn't start this. Someone else brought up the idea. | | I did. I wanted to test the opinions. I said I had enough responses, | about 40 messages ago. Damn, people, if you're *really* tired of hearing | from Richard on this, for god's sake control your keyboards, they're | running amuck! | | Let's see if you guys can just let it die, ok? | | The quiet majority that might benefit are not very likely to speak up when | they are told some is impossible. | | Quiet majority hehe! Right | | -- -- | Chuck Robey| Interests include C Java programming, FreeBSD, | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and signal processing. | | New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up | fictitious words in the dictionary. | -- -- | | | | To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message | To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Sat, 29 Apr 2000, gh wrote: For an opinion from a reasonably new-comer and non-developer, I think at least the main source tree should remain *completely* complete. As someone mentioned, why not have "lite" mirrors? Oh, for god's sake, PLEASE let this drop! I don't want to insult a newcomer, but you've picked a very poor thing to comment on. Try another, maybe one that's a bit fresher. Chuck Robey| Interests include C Java programming, FreeBSD, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Sat 2000-04-29 (20:56), gh wrote: For an opinion from a reasonably new-comer and non-developer, I think at least the main source tree should remain *completely* complete. As someone mentioned, why not have "lite" mirrors? You are welcome to co-ordinate the resources (developer time, bandwidth, machines) to provide this service. Kindly don't continue this discussion in this (inappropriate) forum. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Hacker In Chief, Sunesi Clinical Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: I've often traced files back to the begining of FreeBSD time (and then continued in the CSRG SCCS tree). ^^ I've wanted to do this on occasion. Where are these pre-FreeBSD history records available? -Brian -- Brian Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] SAS Institute Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:17:56 -0400 (EDT), Brian Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I've wanted to do this on occasion. Where are these pre-FreeBSD history records available? You can buy them on CD-ROM, IIRC. In order to do so, however, you must first take out a SCO ``Historical UNIX Versions'' personal license. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same [EMAIL PROTECTED] | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 01:17:56PM -0400, Brian Dean wrote: I've often traced files back to the begining of FreeBSD time (and then continued in the CSRG SCCS tree). I've wanted to do this on occasion. Where are these pre-FreeBSD history records available? Glad you asked. http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/index.html -- -- David([EMAIL PROTECTED]) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: On Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 01:17:56PM -0400, Brian Dean wrote: I've often traced files back to the begining of FreeBSD time (and then continued in the CSRG SCCS tree). I've wanted to do this on occasion. Where are these pre-FreeBSD history records available? Glad you asked. http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/index.html Not incidently, SCO have waived the $100 license application fee, which means that you can get your own official Ancient UNIX(TM) Source Code License for free. This roughly cuts in half the cost of the disks for someone not covered under a orginizaitonal souce code license. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
Out of da blue David Scheidt aka ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) said: On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: On Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 01:17:56PM -0400, Brian Dean wrote: I've often traced files back to the begining of FreeBSD time (and then continued in the CSRG SCCS tree). I've wanted to do this on occasion. Where are these pre-FreeBSD history records available? Glad you asked. http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/index.html Not incidently, SCO have waived the $100 license application fee, which means that you can get your own official Ancient UNIX(TM) Source Code License for free. This roughly cuts in half the cost of the disks for someone not covered under a orginizaitonal souce code license. Is there a new license form to sign or do we just fill out the current form without sending the applicateion fee? David Scheidt #;^) -- f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgrmmng. bush doctor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, Bush Doctor wrote: Out of da blue David Scheidt aka ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) said: Not incidently, SCO have waived the $100 license application fee, which means that you can get your own official Ancient UNIX(TM) Source Code License for free. This roughly cuts in half the cost of the disks for someone not covered under a orginizaitonal souce code license. Is there a new license form to sign or do we just fill out the current form without sending the applicateion fee? I don't know. SCO just made the announcement a week or two ago -- the same time they BSD licensed cscope -- and don't appear to have made changes to their web site yet. The press release is at http://www.sco.com/press/releases/2000/6927.html It might be worthwhile to attempt to contact the contact name on the release. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
Out of da blue David Scheidt aka ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) said: On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, Bush Doctor wrote: Out of da blue David Scheidt aka ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) said: Not incidently, SCO have waived the $100 license application fee, which means that you can get your own official Ancient UNIX(TM) Source Code License for free. This roughly cuts in half the cost of the disks for someone not covered under a orginizaitonal souce code license. Is there a new license form to sign or do we just fill out the current form without sending the applicateion fee? I don't know. SCO just made the announcement a week or two ago -- the same time they BSD licensed cscope -- and don't appear to have made changes to their web site yet. The press release is at http://www.sco.com/press/releases/2000/6927.html It might be worthwhile to attempt to contact the contact name on the release. Thanxs, I'll do that. David #;^) -- f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgrmmng. bush doctor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
At 1:21 PM -0400 4/28/00, Garrett Wollman wrote: On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:17:56 -0400 (EDT), Brian Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I've wanted to do this on occasion. Where are these pre-FreeBSD history records available? You can buy them on CD-ROM, IIRC. In order to do so, however, you must first take out a SCO ``Historical UNIX Versions'' personal license. I don't think that's needed anymore. Check out http://www.sco.com/press/releases/2000/6927.html --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 08:53:52AM -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." Richard, for the record, I'd like to point out that the person who said this is not a developer and therefore the backlashing you're getting is not solely from developers. Other people are sick of your crap, too. :) -- Will Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] GCS/E/S @d- s+:++:- a---+++ C++ UB P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++ DI+++ D+ G+ e- h! r--+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
Richard Wackerbarth wrote: On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Richard Wackerbarth wrote: Actually, I didn't start this. Someone else brought up the idea. ...and quickly decided it was not worthwhile. Yes, the developers do a good job of repressing opinions that differ from their own. But good ideas take on a life of their own, regardless. The trick is, code talks. I could give you lots of examples, but it wouldn't make any difference since you're just restating the same points over and over again regardless of what people are telling you. I haven't heard anyone say that. What I have heard is "too much work for too little gain". If you still disagree, it's time to put up or shut up And if I put up, will you (the organization) use it? What, "the organization?" FreeBSD is the users, not the people you're busy pissing off. Figure out a way to make your idea work, then figure out a way to make a port of it. I think the cvsup-mirror port is a good example of something in the same family (maybe a distant cousin). Then submit your port, and let's see how many people actually do find it valuable. I can't speak for any of the committers, but I'd almost guarantee that several people who've responded to this thread would be willing to commit your port just for the chance to see it go down in flames, which is as close to a guarantee as you're going to get. Any further discussion from you on this point that doesn't include code is totally and completely without value. You haven't proven the value of your suggestion to _anyone's_ satisfaction, so no one is going to do it for you. So if you're not willing to actually do it, please let it drop. Good luck, Doug -- Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. -- W. Somerset Maugham To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Wed, 26 Apr 2000, you wrote: Any further discussion from you on this point that doesn't include code is totally and completely without value. You haven't proven the value of your suggestion to _anyone's_ satisfaction, so no one is going to do it for you. So if you're not willing to actually do it, please let it drop. You are correct that I "haven't proven" yet. Much of this is because the audience doesn't relate to the problem because they don't see themselves directly impacted by it. However, they are paying for it every time they use cvsup or cvs. That's the trouble with this developer community. They see EVERYTHING as WRITING CODE and "adding on". This is not about writing code. The code already exists. I am just advocating using it in a different way. As for the actual "doing", I'm quite willing to do to actual "legwork" that results from the change. But the change is a fundamental change in the way the organization "does business". Unless the organization makes a change, there is nothing to do. I think that it is just a matter of time until the matter gets raised by yet another person as the underlying problem gets more acute. I'll sit back and wait... To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
At 2:22 PM -0600 2000/4/25, Nate Williams wrote: I consider you a very small minority. A user who is not a developer, but who could be a developer. The amount of work it would take to support your needs is way too much work, and it would only benefit 1-2% of the user base. Does this mean we don't care about all our users? Of course not, but when the same amount of time/effort can positively effect 50% of the user base, then it makes more sense to spend the time more wisely. Not that I really want to be seen as being on the same side of the argument as Richard, but there is an issue I think you've ignored -- current versus potential future customers. When you look at current customers (at least, the ones that are vocal enough to express an opinion), you get the sorts of numbers you have expressed. However, when you compare this against potential future customers, I think you could very quickly find that the people who currently appear to be the vocal majority instead find themselves to be a vocal minority. I see this as being the same sort of problem that is faced by the "Moral Majority" crowd. IMO, they are neither moral nor a majority, but they are exceptionally vocal, and quite good at shouting down people who oppose them, and making sure that most of the real majority never even thinks of stepping into the debate simply because they don't want to have to deal with these bozos. Not that I want to equate the people who have taken the opposite view as being a "Moral Majority" or anything, just that there is a similar problem that I think has to be recognized, and we have to try to find some way to address it. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy == Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED]|| Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
At 1:32 PM -0700 2000/4/25, Matthew Hunt wrote: Maintaining a CVS repository is necessary only if you are working on the code, so your proposal would only affect devlopers, not Joe User. Normal users do not maintain copies of the repository and do not have a frequent need to examine history. True enough. However, how many "normal users" would you expect to be subscribing to the freebsd-current mailing list? If this is a current versus stable versus release issue, I think we can all agree that most users are clueless enough that they can't even figure out how to send e-mail to the freebsd-questions mailing list, much less anything else. So, you are either forced to change your definition of "normal users" to be people who would be subscribing to this list (and hopefully contributing in some way) and you have to acknowledge that change in definition, or you have to change the term that you use. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy == Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED]|| Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 12:24:59PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: Maintaining a CVS repository is necessary only if you are working on the code, so your proposal would only affect devlopers, not Joe User. Normal users do not maintain copies of the repository and do not have a frequent need to examine history. True enough. However, how many "normal users" would you expect to be subscribing to the freebsd-current mailing list? If this is a [...] So, you are either forced to change your definition of "normal users" to be people who would be subscribing to this list (and hopefully contributing in some way) and you have to acknowledge that change in definition, or you have to change the term that you use. Perhaps I am missing your point, but in terms of deciding whether Richard's proposal has merit, the fact that we're discussing this on -CURRENT does not seem to me to be an issue. In any case where somebody says "Y'all should do such-and-such" without ponying up the code himself, we should be thinking about whether the benefit to the users will "pay for" the time it takes us to do it. If 10% of the people who run -CURRENT would find a pruned-history repository useful, but only 10% of our user-base runs -CURRENT, then it seems to me that the fact that it benefits 1% of the user population is the relevant figure. (This is different from the usual case of only putting new features in -CURRENT, because that code will eventually become -STABLE; the people benefitting from Richard's proposal, according to the arguments I've seen so far, are the ones who keep running -CURRENT, whatever that happens to be at the moment.) Does this address your criticism? Matt -- Matthew Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] * UNIX is a lever for the http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
Richard Wackerbarth wrote: You are correct that I "haven't proven" yet. Much of this is because the audience doesn't relate to the problem because they don't see themselves directly impacted by it. However, they are paying for it every time they use cvsup or cvs. "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." That's the trouble with this developer community. They see EVERYTHING as WRITING CODE and "adding on". This is not about writing code. The code already exists. I am just advocating using it in a different way. _What_ code, Richard? All you've done in this whole ridiculous thread is spout generalities and generally attack -core. As for the actual "doing", I'm quite willing to do to actual "legwork" that results from the change. But the change is a fundamental change in the way the organization "does business". Unless the organization makes a change, there is nothing to do. This is a cop-out. Define your "different way." If it takes code to do it, write the code, even if that's just shell scripts. Set up a prototype that's publically visible. Prove your point, don't just argue. I think that it is just a matter of time until the matter gets raised by yet another person as the underlying problem gets more acute. You haven't even proven that there _is_ an "underlying problem." As far as _I'm_ concerned, there _isn't_, and I keep a full repository just for the convenience of having it local. I'll sit back and wait... Uh, huh. Cop out. Business as usual for you, Richard, from what I have seen in the past. It's simple: Put up or shut up. -- Frank Mayhar [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.exit.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
At 8:50 AM -0700 2000/4/26, Matthew Hunt wrote: In any case where somebody says "Y'all should do such-and-such" without ponying up the code himself, we should be thinking about whether the benefit to the users will "pay for" the time it takes us to do it. Sounds like a reasonable cost-benefit analysis, as far as it goes. If 10% of the people who run -CURRENT would find a pruned-history repository useful, but only 10% of our user-base runs -CURRENT, then it seems to me that the fact that it benefits 1% of the user population is the relevant figure. I am only guessing, but the way I read the original proposal (which Richard has been advocating much more strongly than the person who originally proposed it) sounded to me like it would benefit anyone and everyone that installed the sources, and therefore is a much broader issue that really should be discussed on something like a -POLICY mailing list, as opposed to here on -CURRENT. Assuming it were relevant to just the users of -CURRENT, how can you be sure that only 10% of them would benefit? To be fair and honest, you'd have to take a statistical sample of a large enough group of users of -CURRENT, and not just rely on the self-selecting responses by a vocal subset. Assuming you could take a statistically valid sample and prove that it really would benefit just 10% of the users of -CURRENT, how could you prove that only 10% of the people run -CURRENT as opposed to -STABLE? Does this address your criticism? I think there are a number of issues to be resolved. Probably the most important is the issue of scope of the change, and who all would potentially benefit (or be harmed) by such a change. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy == Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED]|| Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
Richard Wackerbarth wrote: On Wed, 26 Apr 2000, you wrote: Any further discussion from you on this point that doesn't include code is totally and completely without value. You are correct that I "haven't proven" yet. . . . I'll sit back and wait... To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 06:11:23PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: I am only guessing, but the way I read the original proposal (which Richard has been advocating much more strongly than the person who originally proposed it) sounded to me like it would benefit anyone and everyone that installed the sources, and therefore is a My impression was that it would benefit the people who installed the repository, not just the sources. If I'm mistaken, I'm sure someone will correct me. But that's why I perceive the propasal as mostly affecting developers (in the sense of people who do any code-tinkering, not just committers). Assuming it were relevant to just the users of -CURRENT, how can you be sure that only 10% of them would benefit? To be fair and The 10% figures were hypotheticals to demonstrate which figure I believed to be relevant. They weren't meant to be accurate, aside from both being smaller than unity. IMHO, though, I generally find it reasonable that those who have an opinion on a propsal should take it upon themselves to speak up, rather than waiting to be polled. But as you say, the proposal must be set forth in an appropriate venue. -- Matthew Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] * UNIX is a lever for the http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Wed, Apr 26, 2000 at 12:27:22PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: Why would "The Project" have to do anything? We've already established this is of minority appeal, Have we? Really? We have established that this is of minority It seems to me that the typical assumption is that if someone doesn't speak up, they abstain their vote, for whatever value it might have. Thus, given the number of people who have said they don't think it worth it, and given the number who said they would like this feature, I think we've established that this is a minority issue, quite clearly. Since this is a volunteer project, people are NOT going to be polled on their opinion about X, Y, or Z. They'll either speak up if they care enough or they'll be quiet about the whole proceeding. It does seem that this mailing list is entirely inappropriate for this particular topic; perhaps this thread should be moved to freebsd-arch. Or, as Chuck said about 10 messages ago, it should just die. Either way, I don't honestly care. I'm just not going to be convinced to do any of the coding necessary to prune our repository. I have better things to do with my time than something like that. :-) -- Will Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] GCS/E/S @d- s+:++:- a---+++ C++ UB P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++ DI+++ D+ G+ e- h! r--+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On 26-Apr-00 Richard Wackerbarth wrote: On Wed, 26 Apr 2000, you wrote: Any further discussion from you on this point that doesn't include code is totally and completely without value. You haven't proven the value of your suggestion to _anyone's_ satisfaction, so no one is going to do it for you. So if you're not willing to actually do it, please let it drop. You are correct that I "haven't proven" yet. Much of this is because the audience doesn't relate to the problem because they don't see themselves directly impacted by it. However, they are paying for it every time they use cvsup or cvs. *Bzzzt*. Wrong. You only get the old history during the intial cvsup. And since the most recent revisions are stored at the beginning of an RCS file, you don't pay for this on cvs operations except for 'cvs log' and other operations dealing with the history. Good grief, at least get your facts straight before blathering on. That's the trouble with this developer community. They see EVERYTHING as WRITING CODE and "adding on". This is not about writing code. The code already exists. I am just advocating using it in a different way. No, we just don't do things that we feel are beneficial just because one person is jumping up and down yelling for it. If you want it done, do it yourself, basically. That's why the ports I have committed so far are in the tree. I wanted a port of some program, it wasn't in the tree, so I made it myself, and when I was done I committed it so everyone else could have the option of playing with it. Welcome to a volunteer project. -- John Baldwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Wed, 26 Apr 2000, you wrote: *Bzzzt*. Wrong. You only get the old history during the intial cvsup. And since the most recent revisions are stored at the beginning of an RCS file, you don't pay for this on cvs operations except for 'cvs log' and other operations dealing with the history. Good grief, at least get your facts straight before blathering on. I suggest that YOU get your facts straight. 1) Only the head changes are written at the top of the file. For other branches, cvs has to track down to the branch point and then back out the branch. At each step, it must apply the "patch" that represents the difference in the two versions. 2) I have seen routines that append to the end of a file. However, if I insert at the front, I must copy the entire file. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On 27-Apr-00 Richard Wackerbarth wrote: On Wed, 26 Apr 2000, you wrote: *Bzzzt*. Wrong. You only get the old history during the intial cvsup. And since the most recent revisions are stored at the beginning of an RCS file, you don't pay for this on cvs operations except for 'cvs log' and other operations dealing with the history. Good grief, at least get your facts straight before blathering on. I suggest that YOU get your facts straight. 1) Only the head changes are written at the top of the file. For other branches, cvs has to track down to the branch point and then back out the branch. At each step, it must apply the "patch" that represents the difference in the two versions. And since these will need to be kept for the branches to be useful, this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. 2) I have seen routines that append to the end of a file. However, if I insert at the front, I must copy the entire file. Yes, I suppose your nightly cvsup might take an extra 1 s longer to complete, but I can't really tell since I'm usually sleeping through it. Seriously, do you sit there during the day with a stopwatch and time how long each cvsup takes every five minutes? Besides, this only comes in to play during cvsup, not during any cvs operations since users aren't committing changes. Anyways, one thing that Alfred Perlstein said he might like would be to have another cvsup server that a lite version of the repo could be cvsup'ed from. If, as you say, this can all be truly automated, then setup a cvsup server that cvsups every so often, and automatically expires old history and then serves up the new repo via cvsup. Even if you just generate a proof of concept and don't have the resources to provide the mirror, someone might be interested in running a mirror with your patches. -- John Baldwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Archive pruning - some #s
Hi, I've been idly watching this thread and decided to check a few numbers Is it truly worth pruning? I mirror the freebsd repository, mail archives, and www site locally: size 1.9Gig. time 4:48minabout 2/5 gig per minute ie: it takes about 5 minutes for the update to run. Most of that time is due to the mediocre link I live behind. Internally, we maintain a CVS repository which we use cvsup to backup (100T x-over direct between machines). size 57Gig (no, that isn't a typo). time 41:36 about 1.3 gig per minute In the above case, the network is not the bottle-neck. We simply can't read the data off the disk(s) fast enough (currently a dpt raid, moving to amr with more than twice the performance). I guess I don't see why it's worth pruning. The network connection in my case seems to be the bigger problem. Pruning the tree isn't going to buy me anything. And, we lose information... Comments? Later, John To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
Richard Wackerbarth wrote: On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, you wrote: I'd like to add that it can be particularly important when legal questions arise. You confuse the argument for SOME complete repositories with the necessity that ALL (or at each most) repositories be so extensive. Well I know I'm confused. I missed the part where someone held a gun to your head and told you that you had to maintain a CVS repository. I know that the first thing I do when considering a major FreeBSD project is to go look at the history to make sure I don't make the same mistakes that have been made in the past. Having a partial history doesn't help me at all. I could comment further, but I don't see the point, especially given that the maintainer of the file that started this discussion both agrees that steps can be taken to lessen its impact on the repository, and has agreed to do so. Doug -- Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. -- W. Somerset Maugham To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
Jon Hamilton wrote: I've been following this thread at some distance for a while, and I don't understand your definition of ``everyone''. Aside from developers, who do you feel is a good candidate to track the entire CVS repository, rather than using CVSUP or some other method to get only the tree they are interested in? This is a good question, and deserves a good answer. From my experience, you should maintain a cvs repo if you find that you have lots of local changes to your checked out sources that you would like to maintain, where "lots" gets defined as enough to justify the cost of maintaining the repo as opposed to the cost of re-patching your tree after each cvsup (or other methods). This is of course begging the obvious answer of, if you're developing for FreeBSD there is no substitute. Personally, I keep a fairly complete cvs repo, and use it for my source trees. However, I just switched my ports collections over to use cvsup, and learned how to set up my own cvsupd in the process just for fun. The reason being that an update to the ports tree takes about 40 - 50 minutes with cvs, and 8 - 10 with cvsup on my systems. I don't have enough local changes in my ports tree to justify the expense of time and inconvenience that the checked out ports tree was costing me. If I want to submit a patch to the ports tree I can just check out a working copy and make my patch from that. I hope this is useful information for you. What it boils down to is, if you're just using the FreeBSD sources as they come, and/or you rarely if ever generate a patch for submission to the project there's no point in using cvs, cvsup is faster and easier. Doug -- Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. -- W. Somerset Maugham To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Garrett Wollman wrote: On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:09:14 -0500, Richard Wackerbarth [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: You confuse the argument for SOME complete repositories with the necessity that ALL (or at each most) repositories be so extensive. You're welcome to remove whatever history you like from your personal copy. Not if I want to keep the recent history up to date. The distribution tools don't support that. It's not worth the effort to the project as a whole to save a small amount of disk space. The CVS tree is currently 843 Mbytes, complete. Storage cost (even if you buy SCSI disks) is about $16. With cheap disks, that's about $6. However, you are ignoring the cost of repeatedly (re)processing that (non)information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Nate Williams wrote: I'm violently opposed to removing it completely. The only thing I wouldn't be violently opposed to would be removing 'Attic' files (truly unused file), and having them stored away somewhere in the tree for archival purposes. You realize that its possible to setup your local repo to drop these right? (Attic files that is.) Sure, but many of the Attic files in the tree are actually files that are on an older branch that I'm currently using. I don't want to spend the time to figure out which files are 'unused' and whiche files are 'used but unused'. ;) (Once CVS removes a file and sticks it in the Attic, it *never* is removed from the Attic, even if it's added back into active status again.) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Nate Williams wrote: No-one needs to grab a repository, unless they're looking at history. Just use CVSup to grab the latest bits, no need to grab the entire history. I find it virtually impossible to work with anything but the most stable without the recent part of the repository because I often have to "unbreak" something that was recently committed or is otherwise unfinished in order to get a working system. This is not a major complaint that I need to do so but rather the reason that I find simply cvsup'ing inadequate. Users have the choice to take it all, since trying to build a 'pruned repository' is alot of work (due to the way CVS does it's thing), Actually, it isn't. it can be automated rather easily based on parsing the CVS tags and using RCS primitives. The hard part is to get developers like yourself to recognize that they could refer to a CD for the old parts to the history and keep only the newer part in the online distribution. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
I'd like to add that it can be particularly important when legal questions arise. You confuse the argument for SOME complete repositories with the necessity that ALL (or at each most) repositories be so extensive. No-one needs to grab a repository, unless they're looking at history. Just use CVSup to grab the latest bits, no need to grab the entire history. Users have the choice to take it all, since trying to build a 'pruned repository' is alot of work (due to the way CVS does it's thing), so the all/nothing solution we have now should be good enough for 90% of the users, which is a pretty good solution considering the volunteer organization. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Richard Wackerbarth wrote: Actually, it isn't. it can be automated rather easily based on parsing the CVS tags and using RCS primitives. The hard part is to get developers like yourself to recognize that they could refer to a CD for the old parts to the history and keep only the newer part in the online distribution. I told myself I wouldn't get into this debate with you again, Richard, but you're not listening. The vast majority (all? I might have missed one) of the other respondants have said they WANT to have the complete repository. The above paragraph where you say these people should learn to use your scheme instead shows that you don't get it. It seems to be basically only you who wants this, so please either do the work yourself and make it available, or stop trying to push your ideas on the rest of us who have told you (again) that we don't think they're worthwhile. If it's as easy as you claim them you could automate it and make your own cvsup server which carries the repo-lite you so badly want. Kris P.S. Please don't tell me I'm being a "sandbox developer", because I've yet to see the hordes of non-developers crying out for this system either. In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, you wrote: I told myself I wouldn't get into this debate with you again, Richard, but you're not listening. The vast majority (all? I might have missed one) of the other respondants Actually, I didn't start this. Someone else brought up the idea. P.S. Please don't tell me I'm being a "sandbox developer", because I've yet to see the hordes of non-developers crying out for this system either. I don't disagree that the majority of the readers of this list are not interested. The quiet majority that might benefit are not very likely to speak up when they are told some is impossible. After all, they are at the mercy of the very developers who oppose change because it does not directly benefit the developers. I do object to the characterization by these developers that it CANNOT be done. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Richard Wackerbarth wrote: Actually, I didn't start this. Someone else brought up the idea. ...and quickly decided it was not worthwhile. The quiet majority that might benefit are not very likely to speak up when they are told some is impossible. After all, they are at the mercy of the very developers who oppose change because it does not directly benefit the developers. I do object to the characterization by these developers that it CANNOT be done. I haven't heard anyone say that. What I have heard is "too much work for too little gain". If you still disagree, it's time to put up or shut up :-) Kris In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Tue, Apr 25, 2000 at 03:10:53PM -0500, Richard Wackerbarth wrote: The quiet majority that might benefit are not very likely to speak up when they are told some is impossible. After all, they are at the mercy of the very developers who oppose change because it does not directly benefit the developers. Maintaining a CVS repository is necessary only if you are working on the code, so your proposal would only affect devlopers, not Joe User. Normal users do not maintain copies of the repository and do not have a frequent need to examine history. There's always cvsweb for occasional browsing. I do object to the characterization by these developers that it CANNOT be done. I don't remember anyone saying that. Obviously, it can be done. It's just that nobody wants to, except you. Guess what: That means you get to do it, or stop whining! If all of the committers chip in $0.15 apiece to buy you a big enough disk, will you stop wasting our time about this? -- Matthew Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Science rules. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Richard Wackerbarth wrote: Yes, the developers do a good job of repressing opinions that differ from their own. Thats an interesting revision of the plain facts. And if I put up, will you (the organization) use it? It's certainly too much work to prove the obvious. I don't have to convince myself of anything. The only value accrues if it gets used. Why would "The Project" have to do anything? We've already established this is of minority appeal, and if you do this properly then it would just be a matter of interested users cvsupping from your cvsup server instead of one of the standard ones. You might even convince one or two of the mirror sites to mirror it. Kris In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Tue, Apr 25, 2000 at 03:30:27PM -0500, Richard Wackerbarth wrote: And if I put up, will you (the organization) use it? It's certainly too much I cannot remember anybody ever having a guarantee that their submission will be incorporated into FreeBSD, code-unseen. That's not how it works. So, I suppose you can now go off and whimper about how closed-minded we are and not bother writing any code, just like countless people before you have. Easy, huh? -- Matthew Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Science rules. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Tue, Apr 25, 2000 at 03:30:27PM -0500, Richard Wackerbarth wrote: Yes, the developers do a good job of repressing opinions that differ from their own. It should be noted that the person who brought this up was a developer. -- Will Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] GCS/E/S @d- s+:++:- a---+++ C++ UB P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++ DI+++ D+ G+ e- h! r--+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Matthew Hunt wrote: Maintaining a CVS repository is necessary only if you are working on the code, I disagree. Anyone who attempts to run "-current" on a regular basis needs the recent history to cobble together a working system. It is also very helpful if you are a "tester" and are willing to do more than provide "Buildworld is broken today" feedback. There's always cvsweb for occasional browsing. If you are reasonably well connected. If all of the committers chip in $0.15 apiece to buy you a big enough disk, will you stop wasting our time about this? I already spent a few $100 to get 18GB on my laptop. That doesn't change my argument about the value. The costs are much more than just HD space. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
And if I put up, will you (the organization) use it? It's certainly too much work to prove the obvious. I don't have to convince myself of anything. The only value accrues if it gets used. Erm, haven't we been here with you before? I can even replay the script from heart: 1. Richard comes up with some total crack-smoking idea that only he and a few people hanging around the men's room at grand central station appear to like. 2. Richard demands that this idea be implemented for everyone, both for the men's room crowd and everyone who's passing through grand central on their way to somewhere else. 3. Richard is told to prove and adequately demonstrate the genuine medical merits of smoking crack if he wants something like this to happen since the other folks always thought it was bad for you and besides, they're too busy to take up new and expensive vices. 4. Richard agrees to do so ONLY on the condition that everyone buy crack pipes and an ample supply of crack in advance, just on the off-chance that he's proven right about its benefits. 5. People refuse to do any such thing and the proposal collapses. 6. Go to step 1. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: And if I put up, will you (the organization) use it? It's certainly too much work to prove the obvious. I don't have to convince myself of anything. The only value accrues if it gets used. Erm, haven't we been here with you before? I can even replay the script from heart: 1. Richard comes up with some total crack-smoking idea that only he and a few people hanging around the men's room at grand central station appear to like. Dig tunnels and get the trains off the streets. 5. People refuse to do any such thing and the proposal collapses. 6. Go to step 1. After you sit at the train crossing waiting for the train to pass. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Matthew Hunt wrote: Maintaining a CVS repository is necessary only if you are working on the code, so your proposal would only affect devlopers, not Joe User. Normal users do not maintain copies of the repository and do not have a frequent need to examine history. There's always cvsweb for occasional browsing. This isn't quite true. A repository is very handy if you have a number of different enviornments, two or three STABLEs with different date stamps, say. That's not ideal, but it can be much easier than regression testing a bunch of applications. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Richard Wackerbarth wrote: On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, you wrote: I told myself I wouldn't get into this debate with you again, Richard, but you're not listening. The vast majority (all? I might have missed one) of the other respondants Actually, I didn't start this. Someone else brought up the idea. I did. I wanted to test the opinions. I said I had enough responses, about 40 messages ago. Damn, people, if you're *really* tired of hearing from Richard on this, for god's sake control your keyboards, they're running amuck! Let's see if you guys can just let it die, ok? The quiet majority that might benefit are not very likely to speak up when they are told some is impossible. Quiet majority hehe! Right Chuck Robey| Interests include C Java programming, FreeBSD, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Archive pruning
I want to bring up a suggestion. I just want a little bit of argument on it ... and if you're violently opposed, just say so, that's fine. I want to suggest that, once a year, we go thru the cvs archive, and prune away all history more than 3 (or maybe 2, maybe 4) years old. This could be done without too much pain, I think, in a script. The purpose is to put some kind of cap on growth of the FreeBSD source archive. While folks do sometimes go hunting for hugely old materials in the tree, I normally couldn't care less (when browsing) about history that old. Do we really need 5 year old history? Chuck Robey| Interests include C Java programming, FreeBSD, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Chuck Robey wrote: I want to bring up a suggestion. I just want a little bit of argument on it ... and if you're violently opposed, just say so, that's fine. I want to suggest that, once a year, we go thru the cvs archive, and prune away all history more than 3 (or maybe 2, maybe 4) years old. This could be done without too much pain, I think, in a script. The purpose is to put some kind of cap on growth of the FreeBSD source archive. While folks do sometimes go hunting for hugely old materials in the tree, I normally couldn't care less (when browsing) about history that old. Do we really need 5 year old history? Yes, to avoid Santayana's curse. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 08:15:45PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: I want to bring up a suggestion. I just want a little bit of argument on it ... and if you're violently opposed, just say so, that's fine. I'm "violently opposed". :-) While folks do sometimes go hunting for hugely old materials in the tree, I've often traced files back to the begining of FreeBSD time (and then continued in the CSRG SCCS tree). I've done this numerious times, especially the contributed sources like GCC and GNU grep. Do we really need 5 year old history? Yes. -- -- David([EMAIL PROTECTED]) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
Chuck Robey wrote: I want to bring up a suggestion. I just want a little bit of argument on it ... and if you're violently opposed, just say so, that's fine. Okay: "so." :-) Do we really need 5 year old history? Well, unfortunately (and I speak from painful experience), yes. You never know what history is going to be needed to understand _this_ particular change introduced in _this_ six-year-old revision in code that hasn't been touched since, and that either needs to be changed to fit a new way of doing things or that has a bug in a path that has apparently never been taken, ever before. Hell, some of _my_ code (in my current project) is six years old, and I have only a dim memory of having written it, much less why I wrote it that way in the first place. (Somewhere floating around at a certain university is code I wrote long ago that would be approaching drinking age were it a human being. _It_ probably needs history, too, and doesn't have it. Fortunately, that's Not My Problem. :-) The more history, unfortunately for the disk space needs of all of us keeping copies of the repository, the better. -- Frank Mayhar [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.exit.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: On Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 08:15:45PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: I want to bring up a suggestion. I just want a little bit of argument on it ... and if you're violently opposed, just say so, that's fine. I'm "violently opposed". :-) While folks do sometimes go hunting for hugely old materials in the tree, I've often traced files back to the begining of FreeBSD time (and then continued in the CSRG SCCS tree). I've done this numerious times, especially the contributed sources like GCC and GNU grep. Do we really need 5 year old history? Yes. OK. Thanks, I wanted some opinions, and I guess I have enough to satisfy me. Chuck Robey| Interests include C Java programming, FreeBSD, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
* Chuck Robey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [000424 19:15] wrote: I want to bring up a suggestion. I just want a little bit of argument on it ... and if you're violently opposed, just say so, that's fine. I want to suggest that, once a year, we go thru the cvs archive, and prune away all history more than 3 (or maybe 2, maybe 4) years old. This could be done without too much pain, I think, in a script. The purpose is to put some kind of cap on growth of the FreeBSD source archive. While folks do sometimes go hunting for hugely old materials in the tree, I normally couldn't care less (when browsing) about history that old. Do we really need 5 year old history? Yes. However, I would really like to see a pruned REPO available that carried perhaps the last 3 years of history, perhaps one running off the freebsd cluster. If it became popular enough several of the cvsup mirrors could adopt it. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [[EMAIL PROTECTED]|[EMAIL PROTECTED]] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Chuck Robey wrote: I want to bring up a suggestion. I just want a little bit of argument on it ... and if you're violently opposed, just say so, that's fine. I want to suggest that, once a year, we go thru the cvs archive, and prune away all history more than 3 (or maybe 2, maybe 4) years old. This could be done without too much pain, I think, in a script. The purpose is to put some kind of cap on growth of the FreeBSD source archive. While folks do sometimes go hunting for hugely old materials in the tree, I normally couldn't care less (when browsing) about history that old. Do we really need 5 year old history? a) yes, we need the history. b) do we need it "online everywhere"? I think the answer is "no". However the sandbox engineers think differently. c) I've brought this up more than once. Do "they" care? ??? To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, you wrote: On Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 08:15:45PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: I want to bring up a suggestion. I just want a little bit of argument on it ... and if you're violently opposed, just say so, that's fine. I'm "violently opposed". :-) While folks do sometimes go hunting for hugely old materials in the tree, I've often traced files back to the begining of FreeBSD time (and then continued in the CSRG SCCS tree). I've done this numerious times, especially the contributed sources like GCC and GNU grep. Do we really need 5 year old history? Yes. I don't disagree that we need to maintain the history. I do, however, question the policy that REQUIRES EVERYONE to maintain that much history. The CPU's use L1, L2, MM, HD cache hierarchies. The public libraries have a few months issues of a periodical in each branch library. They also have years of them in the main archives. FreeBSD developers know a better way to manage information??? :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:06:42 -0400 (EDT), Chuck Robey [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: OK. Thanks, I wanted some opinions, and I guess I have enough to satisfy me. I'd like to add that it can be particularly important when legal questions arise. Should some submarine patent cover parts of FreeBSD's practice, it will turn out to be extremely important to be able to document (through the revision history) precisely when the technique under question appeared. Similarly, when Berkeley was defending the USL suit, they needed to make use of the revision history to document their reimplementation process. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same [EMAIL PROTECTED] | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Chuck Robey wrote: Do we really need 5 year old history? Yes. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL| ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 08:59:46PM -0500, Richard Wackerbarth wrote: Do we really need 5 year old history? a) yes, we need the history. b) do we need it "online everywhere"? I think the answer is "no". However the sandbox engineers think differently. c) I've brought this up more than once. Do "they" care? Normally "we" stop caring when we see your name in the From: header. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, you wrote: I'd like to add that it can be particularly important when legal questions arise. You confuse the argument for SOME complete repositories with the necessity that ALL (or at each most) repositories be so extensive. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
I want to bring up a suggestion. I just want a little bit of argument on it ... and if you're violently opposed, just say so, that's fine. I want to suggest that, once a year, we go thru the cvs archive, and prune away all history more than 3 (or maybe 2, maybe 4) years old. I'm violently opposed to removing it completely. The only thing I wouldn't be violently opposed to would be removing 'Attic' files (truly unused file), and having them stored away somewhere in the tree for archival purposes. As far as removing old revisions from files, I'm even more violently opposed to this. This could be done without too much pain, I think, in a script. The purpose is to put some kind of cap on growth of the FreeBSD source archive. While folks do sometimes go hunting for hugely old materials in the tree, I normally couldn't care less (when browsing) about history that old. I quite often browse the source code in the tree, in particular I look through the network code at how it's been modified over the years. Also, I often-times go through the history. Do we really need 5 year old history? Need? As far as needs go, we don't need anything but the most recent versions. This is how Linux was developed for years, and it's a nightmare. The revisions take up very little space, and anyone capable and willing to look through the history shouldn't mind having to see the history of the file. Heck, that's one of the big upsides to using source-code control. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
Do we really need 5 year old history? That really depends on your point of view. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" -- Santayana "The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history." -- Hegel I am with Hegel in the very long term but what is the rush about pruning? Set a cron job to ask this in the year 2037! In the short term it is valuable to trace back the genesis of various features/bugs. With cvs annotate you can even find out who put in a feature or bug and bug that person about it (as I was just this past week about something I had written over four years back). The networking code is so convoluted that having all the history (which we don't) can be very valuable in unravelling all the development strands. -- bakul PS: Of course, having a complete history is not the same as reading and remembering it all but at least you have a chance What is missing is a tool that to easily browse through old revisions (tkdiff is nice but not enough). If such a tool were available there would be many source code historians! PPS: We should have a complete history *somewhere*. You are of course free to extend cvsup to prune so that *you* don't have to keep it all. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Bakul Shah wrote: Do we really need 5 year old history? That really depends on your point of view. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" -- Santayana "The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history." -- Hegel I am with Hegel in the very long term but what is the rush about pruning? Set a cron job to ask this in the year 2037! In the short term it is valuable to trace back the genesis of various features/bugs. With cvs annotate you can even find out who put in a feature or bug and bug that person about it (as I was just this past week about something I had written over four years back). The networking code is so convoluted that having all the history (which we don't) can be very valuable in unravelling all the development strands. Well, I wasn't talking about a harsh pruning, but I haven't seen much support for the idea, so maybe it better drop. The idea came when I was making room for vmware ... boy, I wish that the new generation of 18G Ultra160 disks would come out already ... the only reasonably priced one is the Seagate, but it could be aptly nicknamed the "data furnace" from just how hot it runs. I need more disk! Chuck Robey| Interests include C Java programming, FreeBSD, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:09:14 -0500, Richard Wackerbarth [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: You confuse the argument for SOME complete repositories with the necessity that ALL (or at each most) repositories be so extensive. You're welcome to remove whatever history you like from your personal copy. It's not worth the effort to the project as a whole to save a small amount of disk space. The CVS tree is currently 843 Mbytes, complete. Storage cost (even if you buy SCSI disks) is about $16. With cheap disks, that's about $6. The time it took me to do the research for this paragraph is worth more than that! -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same [EMAIL PROTECTED] | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Richard Wackerbarth wrote } Do we really need 5 year old history? } } Yes. } I don't disagree that we need to maintain the history. } } I do, however, question the policy that REQUIRES EVERYONE to maintain that } much history. I've been following this thread at some distance for a while, and I don't understand your definition of ``everyone''. Aside from developers, who do you feel is a good candidate to track the entire CVS repository, rather than using CVSUP or some other method to get only the tree they are interested in? I'm not trying to be snide; it's possible that I'm missing some element of your argument, but I think using the term ``everyone'' is overstating the case considerably. -- Jon Hamilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Archive pruning
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Nate Williams wrote: I'm violently opposed to removing it completely. The only thing I wouldn't be violently opposed to would be removing 'Attic' files (truly unused file), and having them stored away somewhere in the tree for archival purposes. You realize that its possible to setup your local repo to drop these right? (Attic files that is.) -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL| ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
